Plot to Bomb Jets Is Thwarted in Britain

[pianoman11686]

August 10, 2006

Plot to Bomb Jets Is Thwarted in Britain

By ERIC PFANNER

International Herald Tribune

LONDON - British authorities said Thursday that they had thwarted a terrorist plot to blow up multiple airliners traveling between Britain and the United States, creating "mass murder on an unimaginable scale."

The police said they had arrested 21 people in connection with the plot, which apparently involved plans to smuggle explosives onto aircraft in hand luggage. In response, flights into London Heathrow Airport were canceled and airlines banned hand luggage on departing planes, causing chaos and long delays.

The police did not identify the suspects or their origin, though Paul Stephenson, the deputy metropolitan police commissioner for London, said "community leaders" had been alerted about the police action, using a code word for the British Muslim community.

The authorities did not say how many aircraft had been identified for attack. Sky News put the number at six, while other reports said between three and 10.

"We think this was an extraordinarily serious plot and we are confident that we have stopped an attempt to create mass murder on an unimaginable scale," Stephenson told reporters at Scotland Yard.

He said the people had been arrested in and near London and Birmingham, and added that the searches would continue.

"We have been very successful in arresting those we were targeting but this is a lengthy operation, and no doubt there will be further developments," he told reporters.

News of the foiled plot comes little more than a year after terrorists killed 52 people in an attack on the London Underground, and nearly five years after the attacks of Sept. 11.

As heightened security measures went into effect at Heathrow, travelers were sometimes given little explanation, amid chaotic scenes.

Joanne Weslund, 68, a retired schoolteacher from Hubbardston, Mass., was critical of the way the situation had been handled by the airlines.

"It's been terrible," she said. "We are waiting in Disney-like lines. The only thing B.A. has said is it's a security breach. We are told we can bring nothing on the plane, only passport and cash. If there is a threat, people should not be on planes, but how they handled this is atrocious."

A customer service agent for British Airways told passengers, "The only thing we know for sure is Christmas Day falls on Dec. 25."

OAG, the transport industry information company, estimated that 400,000 people in Britain would be affected by the security alert. On a typical day, the firm said, 3,800 flights take off from Britain, though only about 3 percent of those are trans-Atlantic.

Officials were requiring passengers to check everything except personal items like keys, wallets, and passports, which they had to carry in plastic bags. Drinks and other liquid items were banned.

Travelers were required to remove spectacles or sunglasses from their cases, and those travelling with infants were required to taste any baby milk in front of security officials.

Britain's Department for Transport said it was requiring secondary searches of travelers headed for the United States, with a particular eye to removing any liquids they might have with them.

"We hope that these measures, which are being kept under review by the government, will need to be in place for a limited period only," the department said in a statement.

Despite the arrests, the police said other people connected with the plot might still be at large.

"We believe that these arrests have significantly disrupted the threat, but we cannot be sure that the threat has been entirely eliminated or the plot completely thwarted," Michael Chertoff, the U.S. homeland security secretary, told reporters.

The anti-terrorist action came at a time when Prime Minister Tony Blair is on vacation in the Caribbean. The government said he has spoken to President George W. Bush about the situation.

Disclosure of the plot came one day after John Reid, the British home secretary, gave a speech in which he warned that Britain faced "probably the most sustained period of severe threat since the end of the Second World War."

"This has involved close cooperation, not only between agencies and police forces in the United Kingdom, but also internationally," Reid said.

The British government has come under criticism for anti-terrorism measures imposed in the wake of the July 7 bombings last year.

Despite the extra security measures, flights were still taking off from Heathrow on Thursday morning. Other British airports also reportedly faced delays and crowding.

Ann Keating, a private investigator from Salem, Mass., who landed at Heathrow on Thursday morning, said that because of the chaotic conditions, "the ones I fell most sorry for are the kids.

Karla Adams contributed to this article.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

[pianoman11686]

Security chief: Airline terror plot 'close to execution'

'We cannot be sure ... plot completely thwarted'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terrorists were in the final stages of planning to blow up planes heading from the United Kingdom to the United States, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday.

The plans were "suggestive of an al Qaeda plot," he said.

British police said they had arrested 21 suspects in the plot to blow up passenger jets flying between the United Kingdom and the United States.

Alert levels were raised at U.S. and British airports and air travel across Europe and in the United States faced mass disruptions. (Watch what passengers must do at the world's busiest international airport -- 3:06) (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/08/10/uk.heathrow.ceo.presser.cnn','2006/08/17');)

The foiled plot was "intended to be mass murder on an unimaginable scale," London's Metropolitan Police Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson said.

The plot involved hiding masked liquid explosives and detonators in carry-on luggage, Chertoff said. ('Untold death and destruction' planned -- 2:37) (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/08/10/scotland.yard.presser.cnn','2006/08/17');)

One government official said the terrorists had hoped to target flights to major airports in New York, Washington and California, all major summer tourist destinations.

Chertoff said the plotters were "getting close to the execution phase."

"There were very concrete steps under way to execute all elements of the plan," he said.

"They were not yet sitting on an airplane," but were very close to traveling, a senior U.S. counterterrorism official told The Associated Press.

A U.S. administration official said the terror plot targeted Continental, United, and American Airlines. It was not immediately clear whether other airlines also were involved.

British Home Secretary John Reid said the plotters planned loss of life on "an unprecedented scale."

Chertoff said the plan was reminiscent of a plot by 9/11 coordinator Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in 1999, who had envisioned detonating bombs on 11 airlines possibly traveling over the Pacific Ocean.

Britain's threat warning level has been raised to "critical" -- meaning an attack is expected imminently.

The U.S. threat level has been raised to the highest level of "severe," or red, for commercial flights originating in the United Kingdom bound for the United States, according to the Department of Homeland Security. (Full story) (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.terror.threat.text.ap/index.html)

In addition, the threat level has been raised to "high," or orange for all commercial flights operating in or coming to the United States, the DHS said.

The nation's overall terror threat level has not been altered.

Thursday was the first time the DHS has raised the threat level for a specific group of flights.

"Due to the nature of the threat revealed by this investigation, we are prohibiting any liquids, including beverages, hair gels, and lotions from being carried on the airplane," a DHS statement said.

While there is no indication of plotting within the United States, Chertoff issued a statement saying "we cannot be sure that the threat has been entirely eliminated or the plot completely thwarted."

That means airline passengers around the country should show up at least two hours early for all flights, an official with the Transportation Security Administration told CNN.

"Travelers should go about their plans confidently, while maintaining vigilance in their surroundings and exercising patience with screening and security officials," Chertoff said.

The alleged terror plot comes almost five years after Briton Richard Reid attempted to detonate explosives hidden in his sneakers on an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami in December 2001, only a few months after the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York and Washington.

Passengers thwarted his plan, and the plane landed safely in Boston.

Reid pleaded guilty to terrorism charges in October 2002 and is serving a life sentence at the nation's super-maximum security prison in Florence, Colorado.

Security alert follows arrests

British and U.S. security agencies quickly moved to impose strict limits on carry-on items in the wake of Thursday's arrests, causing extended delays at airport security checkpoints. (Full story) (http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/08/10/terror.passengers.ap/index.html)

The British Airports Authority said no hand luggage would be allowed onto planes leaving British airports until further notice.

British Airways canceled all shorthaul flights in or out of Heathrow Airport for Thursday, and delays were stacking flights up at airports across Europe. (Full story) (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/10/london.travel/index.html)

Stephenson said 21 people were arrested by London, Birmingham and Thames Valley police overnight in an ongoing operation.

"This is about people who are desperate ... who want to do things that no right-minded citizen of this country or any other country would want to tolerate," Stephenson said.

The arrests were the result of a "covert counter-terrorist operation," police said. "It is believed that the aim was to detonate explosive devices smuggled on board the aircraft in hand luggage."

Home Secretary Reid said: "We are doing everything possible to disrupt any other terrorist activity. This will mean major disruptions from all UK airports."

Copyright 2006 CNN.

[lofter1]

So much for that relaxing trip to London ...

[BrooklynRider]

The Fantasy Terrorist League
by lastmogul
Thu Aug 10, 2006

During the 2004 election race--between August and the election that returned George W. Bush to office--Homeland Security's threat level was raised from yellow to orange and back down again four times, creating a continuous low level of fear in most Americans. It was fear that helped Republicans stay in power and it is the fear card that Karl Rove and Co. will choose to play first with their November electoral chances jeopardized.

A week after the November elections of 2004, HSA dropped their threat code to yellow and has kept it that way until today, August 10th. Mark that date as the day this administration's fear campaign of 2006 began.

The Bushies have sent up a few trial balloons already but were largely ignored. Remember the hapless and destitute al Qaida wannabes of Liberty City, Florida who played paint ball games as part of their fantasy terrorist league and supported themselves by selling shampoo on the street to survive? That arrest was worth a huge Justice Department press conference before fading from view after some embarassing questions began to be asked.

Rewatch this morning's press conference and by all means pour yourself a beer for every time Alberto Gonzalez and friends invoke Sept. 11th. Watch the President pop out later and count how many times he says Sept. 11th. Will his approval numbers go up because of this--you betcha, but not as much as in the past. Karl Rove probably needs a new playbook.


www.dailykos.com

[Jake]

Right....Bush organized this one too....he also started the Crusades and currently pays trillions of dollars to fund programs that teach peace loving muslims to hate America.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Nice of the Brits to cooperate in distorting American election politics by completely disrupting their air travel network.

:rolleyes:

[Ninjahedge]

Oddly enough, it is in the best interest of these terrorist orginizations to have Bush and Co. in power.

If they have an enemy they can count on to be stereotypical and solid line in their responses to thnigs, it makes it easier for them to spreat their own rhetoric of a "common enemy" and recruit more.

I do not think they did this deliberately to make this happen, but do you think that this was one thing that was taken into consideration by the leaders of these orginization in regards to the timing? Or do you think it was pure dumb luck?

(Why wouldn't they plan this for sometime before the X-Mas holiday? Even if it was not X-Mas, it would disrupt world travel all through the busiest season of the year!)

[Bob]

Come on guys...are you saying THIS, too, is George Bush's fault? Gimme a break! The President is trying to FIGHT these scumbags, and all you can do is blame this country? We need to go on OFFENSE, big time, making everything we've done to date pale by comparison. Time to show the muslim extremists that we wish to be left alone, and will insist upon it at their expense. Total war means that: total war. No limits. No politically correct BS.

[RandySavage]

The oft-quoted, and frighteningly true, Goering interview during the Nuremberg Trials:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

[ZippyTheChimp]

Oddly enough, it is in the best interest of these terrorist orginizations to have Bush and Co. in power.
Keen observation.

We need to go on OFFENSE, big time, making everything we've done to date pale by comparison. Time to show the muslim extremists that we wish to be left alone, and will insist upon it at their expense. Total war means that: total war. No limits. No politically correct BS.We already did that in one country, and look what happened. Where exactly do you want us to get OFFESIVE now? And where are you going to find the soldiers? Call up the reserves? Some units are already on their 4th tour.

[Fabrizio]

"Time to show the muslim extremists that we wish to be left alone, and will insist upon it at their expense. Total war means that: total war."

And so exactly where do we fight this "total" war?

[JMGarcia]

Al Qaeda needs the west to attack. Without that they are nothing. It is their entire power base.

This is one of those situations where no appeasement will stop their desire to strike the west. This is not about getting the west to change this, that, or the other policy. This is expansionsist islam. They are using attacks against the west to gather power to them within the islamic world. Even if they do achieve that, the grand islamic caliphate of their dreams, they will continue their expansionist policies. It is therefore impossible for the west to disengage.

Having said that, the only solution to this is a fundamental change within islamic society, a virtual sea change of the islamic world's most fundamental values is needed. Unilateral invasion followed by complete incompetence in the follow up seems unlikely to achieve this universally. While offensive force maybe necessary tactically to remove a threat (Afghanistan) it is not going to lead to strategic victory if the follow up is so utterly and incomprehensibly incompetent.

Ultimately the islamic world is a failed society providing neither material wealth, personal freedom, nor spiritual enlightenment and contentment. Only the islamic world itself can solve its problems. The attacks on and the policies of the west are at best a side show. We should not be so egocentric as to believe we control this through any policies past, present, or future.

[lofter1]

From "BOB":

Total war means that: total war.

That is insanity ... you're calling for annihilation of the human race -- and probably beyond that.

Have you no understanding of the power of weapons that are held in stockpiles all around the world?

And if you do, does your concept of "total war" include thermo-nuclear devices?

I ask that you explain yourself and show how this strategy will help us to be "left alone" (but not in a common grave) ... but please show some comprehensive intelligence while doing so.

[kliq6]

"Time to show the muslim extremists that we wish to be left alone, and will insist upon it at their expense. Total war means that: total war."

And so exactly where do we fight this "total" war?

the world should make it clear, you try to blow up a plane with a bomb disguised as toothpaste, then we will nuke you country, case closed!!

[JMGarcia]

the world should make it clear, you try to blow up a plane with a bomb disguised as toothpaste, then we will nuke you country, case closed!!

So, we're going to nuke the UK now? :rolleyes:

[Jake]

Dow Jones reported most of the men captured were of Pakistani orgin....damn...definately didn't see that one coming.


I propose we make Conservative and Liberal airlines...liberals can fly with all the good peaceful peaople and conservatives can fly with people whose profile runs back to what their grandparents did, ok?

This is just great, right now you can't bring luggage aboard and have to wear sandals...thanks to this you won't be able to get a bottle of water either.

Should everyone fly nude or should we do something as simple as check people's background?

[lofter1]

you try to blow up a plane with a bomb disguised as toothpaste, then we will nuke you country, case closed!!


So, we're going to nuke the UK now? :rolleyes:

Exactly ^^ Reports state that those arrested in this plot are British natiionals.

[kliq6]

these people may live in the UK or USA or Italy but there loyalty lies in the Sudan, Iran and other middle eastern states that sponsor these groups, especially this countries so called good friend Saudi Arabia

[Jake]

Citizenship has NO meaning in the 21st century. A piece of paper doesn't make you British.

Caring about your family, paying taxes, not commiting crimes in the UK makes you British.

Caring about your family, paying taxes, not commiting crimes in the US makes you American.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
What if they're Tunisian?

[Schadenfrau]

Wait, so I can get my European citizenship by caring about my grandma and not robbing banks? That sounds fair enough to me.

[Jake]

^The question really is this:

Does a country's immigration agency want to attract functional members of the economic and social systems OR do they just want meat that may or may not pay taxes, will never really integrate into the current "culture" and may end up screwing everything?

So I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not, but yeah, I think in a world where "nationality" doesn't really mean anything, you (caring about your grandpa and not robbing banks) would be a perfect candidate should you want to move.

[Ninjahedge]

Come on guys...are you saying THIS, too, is George Bush's fault? Gimme a break! The President is trying to FIGHT these scumbags, and all you can do is blame this country? We need to go on OFFENSE, big time, making everything we've done to date pale by comparison. Time to show the muslim extremists that we wish to be left alone, and will insist upon it at their expense. Total war means that: total war. No limits. No politically correct BS.

Are you trying to be funny? Because that was pityful.

Some of us are not blaming Bush and Co. for doing this, but it is interesting to see how all of this is playing out. And whether or not they did have something to do with the timing, I will bet you money that they take advantage of it.

As for "Total war", this is not a movie or a video game. When are you signing up to help us with the one war that we are currently stuck in and at a loss for people and funding?

[BrooklynRider]

If we look at the Oklahoma City bombing, one in which everyone initially and very publicly (for some unexplained reason) blamed Arabs we know that the profile was exactly wrong. It was American white-bread terrorist Tim McVeigh who carried it out (if we all want to presume that the government was right).

Sounds like what Jake is suggesting are stronger regulations on the immigrant screening and naturalization process. It also sounds like we need stronger interrogation and screening in customs areas to filter out potential threats. Maybe, we might want to secure our borders. In that case we might not have 12 million people here illegally, who actually have enough power to march in our major cities without being arrested for being illegal immigrants.

It all seems reasonable to me. It is all a function of the Executive Branch.

[Ninjahedge]

the world should make it clear, you try to blow up a plane with a bomb disguised as toothpaste, then we will nuke you country, case closed!!

1) Al Queda does not have a country.
2) Destruction of a homeland, if any, does little to quell guerrilla/terrorist actions.
3) Nuclear weapons are not "precision" weapons. Each one used hurts everyone a little.


We have to find, and cure, the root cause that is motivating these individuals instead of slapping band-aids on the open sores.

I still insist it is a classic have vs have not that is going on, but with the added fire of religion and culture.

It is too complicated to simplify it in a few sentances, but we do need to find a way to make it so that these guys have something else intheir lives to be proud of than the destruction of everyone else around them that is not like them. When you have something to lose, yuo are less likely to volunteer for something that may make you lose it.

[Ninjahedge]

In that case we might not have 12 million people here illegally, who actually have enough power to march in our major cities without being arrested for being illegal immigrants.

That was the thing I found most ironic.

They have a march of people who have entered illegally to show some sort of pride and the cops/national guard was not there arresting people.

This is not a case of crime and punishment, per say, but more along the lines of trynig to make people play by the rules.

But if our own government is not willing to take steps to make this FEASABLY POSSIBLE (IE, no 70' tall electrified wall with IR auto sentry guns and rabidf attack dogs all along the border), how are we to expect anything different?

[Bob]

What is "total war?" It's exactly that: total war. Horrible. Not pretty. Absolutely devastating. Exactly the kind of thing that makes war so horrible, it's avoided at all costs. As I see it, the last total war we fought was World War II. And what did it look like? Answer: firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo. Elimination of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Manhattan Project. Victory gardens. "Why We Fight." "Loose Lips Sink Ships." That's total war, not some police action or incursion to look for who might be launching a missile. And certainly, something is not a total war when every troop movement is played out on CNN, tank for tank, mile by mile. Something IS a total war when the entire country decides it is the most important thing to do, at the expense of nearly everything else, in a determination to win. I think this country has a tremendous capacity to bring down its terrible wrath against the enemy. We might have come terribly close to doing so on 9/11. But I can tell you this: if we suffer another event such as 9/11, the world had better hold on tight, because the result we unleash will not and cannot be pretty. It will be total war. And, entire countries will be eliminated.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
Can the jingoism, and give us specifics.

In the total war of WWII, specific countries were targeted.

[lofter1]

You see, Bob, there's one big diffence between where we are now from what went down at the end of WW2 ...

Then the USA was the ONLY country with viable ATOMIC weapons. Basically those were fairly small but devastating bombs that could take out a medium sized urban area.

NOW numerous countries (among them some that aren't so crazy about the US) have THERMO-NUCLEAR Weapons -- a whole different bag of tricks. A MEDIUM sized one of those takes out 360 SQUARE MILES.

So, under the "Total War" scheme: bye bye NY Metro area, bye bye LA, bye bye London, bye bye Mumbai, bye bye Karachi and on and on -- as there are THOUSANDS of these devices sitting on the tips of missiles and ready to launch. Not to mention the radioactive fall-out and subsequent desctruction due to fire, etc. These BIG ones no one really knows what they'll do if used in some populated area. But it is known that these weapons know no boundaries and if used are NON-CONTAINABLE.

So: TOTAL WAR, eh? We lob one of our big suckers around the planet to ... WHERE? Pakistan? You know they have the big bad bombs, right? They see one of ours coming towrds them and WTF do you think they'd have to lose by shooting off all of theirs? They're all toast anyway in the next 20 or so minutes, so what would it matter to them at that point to take out as many of their attackers as they could?

The American scientists who worked on the Thermo-Nuclear Weapons (i.e. post-Atomic Hiroshima / Nagasaki bombs) struggled with the ethical implications of creating weaponry that could destroy the planet. Ultimately they came to the realization that they must push forward since it was clear the the opposition (at that time only the USSR) was going to development similar weapons and that a balance of power was necessary (the famous "mutually assured destruction" theory) in order to stop either side from EVER using such all-destructive weapons.

The goal we should have before us is to work in order to AVOID wars.

[Ninjahedge]

I hear a lot of chest thumping.

Bob, when are you going to sign up for the military? You seem to be anxious to show the world what America can do, but you are not too eager to step in to be one of the ones to help do it.

[lofter1]

Some visual aids from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons#Estimated_w orldwide_nuclear_stockpiles) ...

The first shows how many nuclear weapons are stockpiled by the US / Russia alone ...


US and Russian nuclear stockpiles (From Wikimedia Commons: LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png))http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png/797px-US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png)
Here's an estimate of active nuclear weapons currently held worldwide:


Declared nuclear weapons statesCountry / Warheads activehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg) United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_States) 5,735http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Flag_of_Russia_%28bordered%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Russia_%28bordered%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Russia_%28bordered%29.svg) Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) (formerly the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)) 5,830http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg) United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) <200http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_France.svg) France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) 350http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg ) People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China) 130 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Flag_of_India.svg/22px-Flag_of_India.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_India.svg) India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) 75-115http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Flag_of_Pakistan.svg/22px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Pakistan.svg) Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) 65-90http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Flag_of_North_Korea.svg/22px-Flag_of_North_Korea.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_North_Korea.svg) North Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea) 0-10And another visual aid:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Nuclear_weapon_programs_worldwide.png

Summary

Image of worldwide nuclear weapons programs, as of September 2005. Based on info at en:List of countries with nuclear weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons), filled into Image:BlankMap-World.png (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:BlankMap-World.png) originally by User:Fastfission (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fastfission) (but now by others as well, see below). Rendered without labels for multi-lingual support. Feel free to update this (very easy using Photoshop or GIMP) as reliable information changes.

Red: Five "nuclear weapons states" from the NPT (USA, Russia, UK, France, PRC)
Dark orange: Other known nuclear powers (India, Pakistan)
Light orange: States suspected of having possession of, or suspected of being in the process of developing, nuclear weapons (Israel, North Korea, Iran, Ukraine)
Purple: States which at one point had nuclear weapons and/or nuclear weapons research programs.Historical states have been represented by their successor states (i.e. Yugoslavia by Serbia and Montenegro, as they apparently inherited the nuclear materials of the socialist state after it fragmented).

[pianoman11686]

Am I the only one here who is struck by the oddity in this latest development? Why carry out your next "devastating" attack with airplanes and explosives? It's been tried several times, and has been intercepted each and every time. Getting suspicious items on a plane is already sufficiently difficult, and these guys just expected to waltz in with suitcases full of suspicious liquid? If powdered sugar could set off alarms, I sure this could have, too.

I don't mean to spread theories, because I have absolutely nothing to back them up save for my own logic and intuition. But: what if this was done purposely to divert attention and resources away from something much bigger that's being planned? I'm not saying I think, or expect it to happen; I just wouldn't be surprised if, in the next few months, plans were advanced to unleash a far more brutal attack, and the chaos caused by this discovery will have helped it move along at least somewhat.

[lofter1]

Diversion is a viable strategy.

Any smart player will study what comes about when a plan is thwarted / discovered / achieved in order to see what weaknesses can be taken advantage of in the future. In terms of military strategy, often the failure of a specific plan yields invaluable information in the formulation of the next plan.

On the other hand blowing up numerous airplanes mid-flight would wreak havoc on many levels.

And that very scheme has been a stated goal of various groups for over 10 years.

[Bob]

If you hate George Bush, be my guest. But keep the eye on the prize: a world free of Muslim extremists who feel it's altogether proper to slit the throat of a flight attendant. Chest-thumping, indeed.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Why carry out your next "devastating" attack with airplanes and explosives? It's been tried several times, and has been intercepted each and every time. Getting suspicious items on a plane is already sufficiently difficult, and these guys just expected to waltz in with suitcases full of suspicious liquid?
The "devastating" attack would be the destruction of the airplanes themselves.

There has been speculation about mixing harmless liquids into explosive material once on board. If this is all true, it was no accident that trans-Atlantic flights were targeted. You wouldn't have to destroy an airplane over mid-ocean, just incapacitate it.

These terrorist attacks are not about physically weakening the U.S. or any other country, but gaining symbolism and publicity for the cause.

[ZippyTheChimp]

If you hate George Bush, be my guest.
What exactly are you replying to?

Aside from two posts by BrooklynRider, no one in this thread has expressed any sentiment concerning George Bush except you.

And we still don't know how you would conduct this total war.

[Ninjahedge]

If you hate George Bush, be my guest. But keep the eye on the prize: a world free of Muslim extremists who feel it's altogether proper to slit the throat of a flight attendant. Chest-thumping, indeed.

Um, where did I mention GWB?

And now you are doing the equivalent of shouting "baby killer" in a church rectory during Christmas Mass.

Slit the throat of a flight attendant. Stop mixing every bit of bad you have heard on O'Reilley and Hannity...

http://www.blah3.com/images/articles/20060808225027680_1.jpg

[RandySavage]

It's probably true that the "war against terrorism" comes down to "the haves" vs. "the have-nots" (a fundamental cause of conflict throughout human history) as embodied in the Irsael-Palestine conflict over the past 60 years. Even to moderate muslims that conflict has been tangible symbol of "the haves" (Israel/America/the West) taking advantage of / beating up on "the have-nots" (Arab and Muslim countries).

It's unlikely that the muslim extremism will ever be pacified. To do that it would take surrender. Total capitulation. The uprooting of all Israelis and the giving of that land to the Palestinians. The removal of all western military forces from muslim lands where they're not wanted. The promise not to interfere in muslim affairs ever again and to pay reparations for the damage done in Iraq, Lebanon and Afghanistan.

On the other hand, could muslim extremism be totally annihilated? That would involve sending any citizens who might be possible home-grown terrorists (ie all U.S. muslims) to concentration camps. Denying any who would be sympathetic to the muslim cause entry to the country, and "securing" them in camps. Launching a broad series of chemical/biological attacks to genocidally kill/subdue the populace of targeted muslim countries. Finally, the securing and militarizing of the arab ports and oil fields.

Since neither of these courses will take place (for obvious or not-so-obvious reasons), in the end, it seems that a war against muslim extremism will go on for at least the next 50 years. Our country and other western democracies will continue to move towards ultra secure police states, where everbody lives under the (real or manufactured) threat of a terrorist attack. So either way, the enemy will have won.

[BrooklynRider]

...Aside from two posts by BrooklynRider, no one in this thread has expressed any sentiment concerning George Bush except you.

Clarification: My first post was an article written by someone else in which THAT PERSON mentions George W. Bush. My second post refers to the Executive Branch, which you are interpreting as George W. Bush.

I never wrote uttered that name in my statements.

[pianoman11686]

The "devastating" attack would be the destruction of the airplanes themselves.

There has been speculation about mixing harmless liquids into explosive material once on board. If this is all true, it was no accident that trans-Atlantic flights were targeted. You wouldn't have to destroy an airplane over mid-ocean, just incapacitate it.

These terrorist attacks are not about physically weakening the U.S. or any other country, but gaining symbolism and publicity for the cause.

It certainly would have been a sensational attack, but devastating? I don't think so. I don't intend to sound like I'm making light of what would have been a very serious attack, as anything involving multiple airplanes would be. However, the planes themselves would not damage any American or British infrastructure, and the death toll would be confined to the people on board. Even if they succeeded in bombing the upper limit of planes (~10), the number of casualties would not be more than the Sept 11th attacks. From what I've heard, and come to expect from Al Qaeda in its next attack, is something far graver that would affect untold tens of thousands of people, and seriously disrupt the economy. Sure, these airliners would probably need another bailout from the govt, and air travel would become a nightmare (hasn't it already?), but it wouldn't be anything that we haven't already seen before.

As for the nature of the flights: the Sept 11th plan was based on using large, cross-country jets, fully loaded with a lot of fuel, and carrying relatively few passengers. Here, the goal was to target large planes, once again, but with a different aim: to kill several hundred American and British civilians, the most desirable targets that exist.

[Ninjahedge]

Clarification: My first post was an article written by someone else in which THAT PERSON mentions George W. Bush. My second post refers to the Executive Branch, which you are interpreting as George W. Bush.

I never wrote uttered that name in my statements.

BR, I avoided saying anythnig the first time ya did this, but it was the blue text that made me write this again after I did not submit it the first time.

We know you.

We know your position on things.

You poted an article that blames bush, and you mention the Executive branch, which Bush is the leader of.

Defending yourself on what was meant to be an idle offhand devaluement of Bob's comments in that there were no real comments on Bush is kind of self defeating. We all knew who you were referencing, and why you posted what you did. We are not calling you out on it.

So relax!!!! ;)

[Ninjahedge]

It certainly would have been a sensational attack, but devastating? I don't think so. I don't intend to sound like I'm making light of what would have been a very serious attack, as anything involving multiple airplanes would be. However, the planes themselves would not damage any American or British infrastructure, and the death toll would be confined to the people on board. Even if they succeeded in bombing the upper limit of planes (~10), the number of casualties would not be more than the Sept 11th attacks. From what I've heard, and come to expect from Al Qaeda in its next attack, is something far graver that would affect untold tens of thousands of people, and seriously disrupt the economy. Sure, these airliners would probably need another bailout from the govt, and air travel would become a nightmare (hasn't it already?), but it wouldn't be anything that we haven't already seen before.

As for the nature of the flights: the Sept 11th plan was based on using large, cross-country jets, fully loaded with a lot of fuel, and carrying relatively few passengers. Here, the goal was to target large planes, once again, but with a different aim: to kill several hundred American and British civilians, the most desirable targets that exist.


What would it do to the travel industry? How would people feel about their own personal safety afterwards?

I think the news media is trumping this up a bit, but it would still be a very significant event and have major reprocussions around the world.

[eddhead]

Come on guys...are you saying THIS, too, is George Bush's fault? Gimme a break! The President is trying to FIGHT these scumbags, and all you can do is blame this country? We need to go on OFFENSE, big time, making everything we've done to date pale by comparison. Time to show the muslim extremists that we wish to be left alone, and will insist upon it at their expense. Total war means that: total war. No limits. No politically correct BS.

Who are you proposing that we go to war with?

[ZippyTheChimp]

However, the planes themselves would not damage any American or British infrastructure, and the death toll would be confined to the people on board. Even if they succeeded in bombing the upper limit of planes (~10), the number of casualties would not be more than the Sept 11th attacks.From an Al Qaeda perspective, the goal of this "war" is not to inflict damage to the point where the US is militarily defeated, but to stay relevant as a force in Mideast politics This mindset is present in the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah. The casualties and destruction are very one-sided, but if Hezbollah can attack Israel with missiles and survive an attack by the Israeli military, they have "won."

It would be a mistake for us to think that we are the ultimate objective in this conflict.

As devastating as the 09/11 attacks were, NYC is in better economic shape today than it was on 09/10/2001.

[Ninjahedge]

Who are you proposing that we go to war with?

A philosophy and military tactic.

You know those wars can be won overnight!

[ZippyTheChimp]

Clarification: My first post was an article written by someone else in which THAT PERSON mentions George W. Bush. My second post refers to the Executive Branch, which you are interpreting as George W. Bush.

I never wrote uttered that name in my statements.
I was in error about your first post, but when someone says Executive Branch, I don't put Condi Rice's face on it.

[pianoman11686]

From an Al Qaeda perspective, the goal of this "war" is not to inflict damage to the point where the US is militarily defeated, but to stay relevant as a force in Mideast politics This mindset is present in the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah. The casualties and destruction are very one-sided, but if Hezbollah can attack Israel with missiles and survive an attack by the Israeli military, they have "won."

I never mentioned anything about the military. I apologize if I used the incorrect word, but by "infrastructure" I meant things like our mass transit systems, our physical cities, power plants, chemical factories, government offices, basically anything that would take a long time to rebuild and cost us a lot of money. By bringing down a few airplanes, the effects of the attack remain relatively constrained.

It would be a mistake for us to think that we are the ultimate objective in this conflict.

By "we," do you mean civilians, or the United States government?

As devastating as the 09/11 attacks were, NYC is in better economic shape today than it was on 09/10/2001.

You're right, though: they were devastating. They caused far more damage than this most recently thwarted attack would have, and the evidence is still there as a big pit in Lower Manhattan. The airline industry is only beginning to emerge out of bankruptcy. Our national economy is back on its feet, but there was a recession. New York did lose thousands of jobs in the process, and it's only now starting to reach the levels of employment that existed pre-9/11. Without the real estate boom, and the resulting revenues that it brought to a city that was facing a long-term budget crisis, who knows what economic shape New York would be in today.

I'm not saying that a single attack will cripple a nation as large as ours, but from Al Qaeda's perspective, the only way to go is up, that is: execute increasingly severe attacks. I do not get the sense that this foiled plot would have fit into that category.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I used the word military to define a defeat that would happen in an actual war - cease fire, peace treaty, unconditional surrender, etc.

As for infrastructure damage, consider WWII bombing of civilian targets. The Allies bombed German industry, railways, and cities with the intention of getting the Third Reich to surrender.

The 09/11 attack is more like General Doolittle's 1942 air-raid on Japanese cites. The damage done did not appreciably affect Japan's ability to conduct the war, but was a tremendous morale booster for the American public.

I don't know what the ultimate goal of bin Laden and the cave dwellers is, but their support comes from people who see themselves as constantly humiliated by the Western World. In a sense, even the liberation of Iraq from a despot is seen by many in the Middle East as another humiliation.

Any attack on the US would be seen as a great victory - like hitting the neighborhood bully with a rock and running away. You know he's going to come after you, but it still feels good.


By we, I meant both civilians and the Government.

[milleniumcab]

Peace at Home and Peace Abroad... That is the ultimate solution...

[ablarc]

...and a chicken in every pot.

[Jake]

Peace at Home and Peace Abroad... That is the ultimate solution...

Never happened in world history. :)

Mutually Assured Destruction is IMO the best solution (though I'm basing it on the assumption that people don't want to die, which is false in Muslim extremist circles)

# of conflicts fought between the two biggest and best armed countries of the last century (one of them being run by the craziest man in human history): 0

# of conflicts fought in Muslim countries in the last 20 years that didn't even involve the US: hmmm....I can name a dozen just off the top of my head

[lofter1]

Mutually Assured Destruction is IMO the best solution (though I'm basing it on the assumption that people don't want to die, which is false in Muslim extremist circles)


There's the rub :eek:

[ZippyTheChimp]

# of conflicts fought between the two biggest and best armed countries of the last century (one of them being run by the craziest man in human history): 0
The Cold War produced many hot wars either directly involving the superpowers or countries alligned with them - Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, the Arab-Israeli wars, Iran-Iraq, Lebanon, Angola.

[ablarc]

The Cold War produced many hot wars either directly involving the superpowers or countries alligned with them - Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, the Arab-Israeli wars, Iran-Iraq, Lebanon, Angola.
Jake's point is still valid, Zippy; the two big guys never had at it directly because they were afraid of the consequences --even crazy Stalin wasn't interested in martyrdom; that's for the religious nuts to embrace.

The problem here is the religion. No, not the extremist interpretation of it, but rather the unmistakable literal exhortations in it --the nitty-gritty. Read the Koran and you'll see that.

[Gregory Tenenbaum]

I was on a plane on the 9th to Europe. This is very bad and sad news.

Actually, as it happens, I rarely if ever fly through the UK these days. I prefer Copenhagen, and trust me, SAS is a great airline, right up there with Cathay Pacific. The real reason I dont fly through the UK is that its cheaper to fly to another capital in Europe (UK airport taxes are higher) and I dont have to see Heathrow (a monstrosity in itself).

But heres the thing:

I was at Union Square Park early on Wednesday morning having breakfast. As I emerged from Whole Foods Market I saw a large squad of NYPD Swat guys with M4 Carbines spreading out over the southern part of the square. I knew that something was up. How often have you guys seen that?

Later that day at Newark I saw other numerous police (or military) with automatic weapons on guard.

I thought to myself, it has almost been 5 years since the attacks here, whats going on?

And then I read the news today. Shudders.

[Gregory Tenenbaum]

Dow Jones reported most of the men captured were of Pakistani orgin....damn...definately didn't see that one coming.


I propose we make Conservative and Liberal airlines...liberals can fly with all the good peaceful peaople and conservatives can fly with people whose profile runs back to what their grandparents did, ok?

This is just great, right now you can't bring luggage aboard and have to wear sandals...thanks to this you won't be able to get a bottle of water either.

Should everyone fly nude or should we do something as simple as check people's background?

Funny you say that.

I have studied fashion design and shortly after the 7/7 attacks last year and that shooting of the innocent brazilian electrician started designing some "Honest/Nude Clothing" that shows you easily what people are wearing carrying underneath their clothing. The clothing style also shows you what peoples bodies are like, hence the term "Honest Clothing".

Not sure if it would be a runaway success but it remains an idea that I would like to explore. It could be compulsory on an airline one day.

[stache]

BBC has started calling the bomb plot "alleged".

[Jake]

^ha, lol, ok...the UK brought billions of dollars of losses to itself just for the fun of it. :p

I hear BBC is "allegedly" a source of news.

:D

[ZippyTheChimp]

Peace at Home and Peace Abroad... That is the ultimate solution...

Jake's point is still valid, Zippy; the two big guys never had at it directly because they were afraid of the consequences --even crazy Stalin wasn't interested in martyrdom; that's for the religious nuts to embrace.

The problem here is the religion. No, not the extremist interpretation of it, but rather the unmistakable literal exhortations in it --the nitty-gritty. Read the Koran and you'll see that.Jake's point is not valid as an answer to millenium cab. MAD did not eliminate war, only redirected it. It may be hard to believe, but today the US military is stationed in over 100 countries, a consequence of the Cold War.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Reading the Koran will not give you an understanding of how Muslims live. An observant Syrian family lived in the apartment of my grandparents' house throughout my childhood. They became close enough to my Italian immigrant grandparents to be invited to my mother's wedding, and one of their children was a friend to me. his father was a shopkeeper on Atlantic Ave, and over the years, I gained an understanding of Muslim life.

They were Sunnis, who are the more literal or fundamentalist branch of Islam. Shiites, who comprise about 15% of the worldwide Muslim population, are considered by Sunnis to have strayed from the dogma of the Koran. Shiites believe in ijtihad, where Islamic law is open to interpretation by religious scholars. Sunnis believe that Islamic law has been immutable for over 1000 years. Shiites believe in human choice, Sunnis in predestination.

Literal interpretations of the Koran by fundamentalist Sunnis does not explain why countries such as Tunisia, 98% Sunni Muslim, are at peace with the Western world. Maybe it's because they maintain neutral political relations with both Western nations and the Middle East region, and have achieved a separation of mosque and state.

[ablarc]

Literal interpretations of the Koran by fundamentalist Sunnis does not explain why countries such as Tunisia, 98% Sunni Muslim, are at peace with the Western world. Maybe it's because they maintain neutral political relations with both Western nations and the Middle East region, and have achieved a separation of mosque and state.
That's right, you're describing a country and a people who deviate from scripture in their everday life. That's what enables them to prosper internally and internationally. The Koran does not advocate neutrality or separation of mosque and state; in fact, it condemns them both.

Tunisia's relationship to Islam is more like a European country's relationship to Christianity. There's not much danger of Christian fundamentalists taking over the French state and running it as a theocracy.

I guess you could say Tunisia is the exception that proves the rule.

[lofter1]

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/images/mainhome.gif (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/index.htm)

Financial Sanctions: Terrorist Financing

Bank of England (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2006/082.htm)
News Release
11 August 2006

This news release is issued in respect of the financial measures taken against terrorism.

The Bank of England, as agent for Her Majesty’s Treasury, has today directed that any funds held for or on behalf of the individuals named in the Annex to this News Release must be frozen (see Key Resources below for Annex), and that no funds should be made available, directly or indirectly to any person, except under the authority of a licence.

Financial institutions and other persons are requested to check whether they maintain any accounts or otherwise hold any funds, other financial assets, economic benefits and economic resources for the individuals named in the Annex and, if so, they should freeze the accounts or other funds and report their findings to the Bank of England.

The names in the Annex are in addition to those listed in previous Bank Notices containing directions under Article 4 of the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/3365) and under Article 8 of the Al-Qa’ida and Taliban (United Nations Measures) Order 2002 (S.I. 2002/111, as amended).

Previous Notices and news releases related to Terrorism, Al-Qa’ida and the Taliban and a consolidated list of individuals and entities subject to these and other UK financial sanctions regimes are available from the Financial Sanctions pages (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/financialsanctions/index.htm).

Key Resources
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/images/icons/pdf_icon.gifFull News Release and Annex (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/financialsanctions/sanctions060811.pdf) (21k)

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/images/icons/pdf_icon.gifBank of England Notice (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/financialsanctions/sancnotice060811.pdf) (77k) 10 August 2006United Nations Act 1946Notice containing a direction under article 4 of the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/3365)____________________________________

Bank of England freezes assets of 19 UK terror plotters

rawstory (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Bank_of_Engalnd_freezes_assets_of_0811.html)
Friday August 11, 2006

An order issued by the Bank of England today froze the assets of 19 suspected terror plotters in the United Kingdom, RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/) has learned.

The notice explained that "The Bank of England, as agent for Her Majesty’s Treasury, has today directed that any funds held for or on behalf of the individuals named in the Annex to this News Release must be frozen (see Key Resources below for Annex), and that no funds should be made available, directly or indirectly to any person, except under the authority of a licence."

The asset freeze was completed under previously authorized UK anti-terror sanctions established in the aftermath of post-9/11 UN Security Council directives.

The full notice is available at the Bank of England's website. (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2006/082.htm) RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/) has provided the list of names in full below.

#

FINANCIAL SANCTIONS: TERRORIST FINANCING
Individuals

ALI, Abdula, Ahmed DOB: 10/10/1980 Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom
ALI, Cossor DOB: 04/12/1982 Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
ALI, Shazad, Khuram DOB: 11/06/1979 Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
HUSSAIN, Nabeel DOB: 10/03/1984 Address: London, United Kingdom, E4
HUSSAIN, Tanvir DOB: 21/02/1981 Address: Leyton, London, United Kingdom, E10
HUSSAIN, Umair DOB: 09/10/1981 Address: London, United Kingdom, E14
ISLAM, Umar DOB: 23/04/1978 Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
KAYANI, Waseem DOB: 28/04/1977 Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
KHAN, Assan, Abdullah DOB: 24/10/1984 Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
KHAN, Waheed, Arafat DOB: 18/05/1981 Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
KHATIB, Osman, Adam DOB: 07/12/1986 Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
PATEL, Abdul, Muneem DOB: 17/04/1989 Address: London, United Kingdom, E5
RAUF, Tayib DOB: 26/04/1984 Address: Birmingham, United Kingdom
SADDIQUE, Muhammed, Usman DOB: 23/04/1982 Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom, E17
SARWAR, Assad DOB: 24/05/1980 Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
SAVANT, Ibrahim DOB: 19/12/1980 Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
TARIQ, Amin, Asmin DOB: 07/06/1983 Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom, E17
UDDIN, Shamin, Mohammed DOB: 22/11/1970 Address: Stoke Newington, London, United Kingdom
ZAMAN, Waheed DOB: 27/05/1984 Address: London, United Kingdom, E17

[212]

The British were able to foil this plot with help from Pakistani intelligence and informants within the terrorists' own communities. In other words, what kept us safe from terrorism was help from ordinary Muslims who were on our side.

Death toll so far: zero. It beats "total war".

[ZippyTheChimp]

That's right, you're describing a country and a people who deviate from scripture in their everday life.Are either of us qualified to draw the conclusion that they deviate from scripture, that they are not devout and fundamentally observant? It seems to me that Muslims have a greater connection to their religion on a day-to-day basis than Christians. And yet, Tunisians don't seem to want to kill infidels.

Tunisia's relationship to Islam is more like a European country's relationship to Christianity. There's not much danger of Christian fundamentalists taking over the French state and running it as a theocracy.But Europe was once a collection of Christian theocracies, with geopolitical consequences that led to the Crusades. The Middle East today is stuck in the Middle Ages; it's problems are geopolitical.

[Ninjahedge]

It is more a matter of self security and what these people have in their lives.

I have said before, if you have nothing to lose, and your pastor promises you riches afterwards, what do you have to fear about losing your life?

1) You get eternal happiness in the afterlife
2) Your family gets paid for your services
3) It is considered, or a tleast "marketed" as a great, and honorific service to "your people".


All you have to do is present the threat of losing something to someone and they will have a motivator to behave in a certain way. Threaten westerners with attacks that may (1 in a million chance) hurt them or their family, and they will support an action into a country that they are told is responsible even though they had no hand in it.

BUT, tell them that we are on a peace-keeping mission into a terrorist hotbed and see how many people volunteer to join the service to help out. They stand to lose something with nothing tangible in return for it. Granted, voting to send other guys (and our $$) out is different in terms of level of personal commitment than volunteering ourselves, but the point I am getting at is not levels, but more of the motive power of loss and gain.

You can never get people to agree on religion. You can get them to cherish their own lives enough not to commit themselves to the extent we have seen in the middle east.

[lofter1]

Day of terror strikes was planned for August 16

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/08/plotters110806_600x301.jpg
Arrested: Don Stewart-Whyte (left) converted to Islam six months ago and Amjad Sawar (right)
is believed to have a baby daughter

Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400114&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)
11th August 2006

Terrorists were planning to unleash a series of deadly mid-air explosions on flights between London and America on August 16, it has been revealed today.

Members of the terror group, who were arrested in a series of raids by anti-terror police yesterday, were due to mount a dry run today to check if they could smuggle components for liquid explosives through Britain's airports.

United Airline tickets dated next Wednesday were found by police at the home of one of the raided addresses.

One US intelligence official told today's Evening Standard: "The bombers were a couple of days from a test, and a few days from doing it."

The airlines targeted were United, American and Continental, which fly to New York, Washington and California.

Today the Bank of England named and froze the assets of 19 of the 24 air terror suspects arrested. The bank was acting under the instruction of Chancellor Gordon Brown and on the advice of the police and security services.

It acted under powers granted by the United Nations to tackle the financing of terrorism in the wake of the September 11 2001 attacks. Its action means it is a crime to make their money available without a licence from the Treasury.

The oldest of the named suspects is 35 and the youngest 17. Thirteen of them are from east London - nine from Walthamstow, one from Chingford, one from Leyton, one from the Limehouse and Poplar area and one from Clapton.

Four are from High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, and the other two are from Birmingham and Stoke Newington, north London.

The imam of Walthamstow mosque, where many of the suspects live, urged the Muslim community to remain calm and assist the police in their inquries. The unnamed imam added: "We'd like to remind people that the suspects are innocent until proven guilty."

Meanwhile, a senior Pakistani government official said today that two British nationals arrested in Pakistan provided information about the alleged UK air terror plot.

The UK remains on a "critical" level of alert against terrorism and air passengers at UK airports are expected to face widespread disruption again today following the introduction of new anti-terrorism measures yesterday including a ban on hand luggage.

The plot, which was described as an attempt to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale" by blowing up passenger jet, may have been thwarted just days before it was due to be carried out.

©2006 Associated Newspapers Ltd

[lofter1]

Drama at dawn as the terror squads descend on suburbia

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/08/terrorhouse_600x800.jpg
Focus of the raids

Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400012&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)
By MICHAEL SEAMARK, TOM KELLY and NEIL SEARS
11th August 2006

A semi-detached home in the commuter town of High Wycombe was at the centre of the terror raids.

Following a series of dramatic arrests across the country, nine nearby homes were evacuated 'as a precautionary measure' as police removed large boxes from the £170,000 house and garden.

Neighbours said the Sarwar family had lived at the property in rundown Walton Drive for at least 20 years and police had arrested brothers Amjad and Asad Sarwar. Friends told how the men, British born of Pakistani origin and in their late twenties, became "very religious" in recent years.

One man said they had been popular pupils at nearby Sir William Ramsey School until they reached their late teens.

"But they suddenly changed a few years ago," he said. "They became very religious, began to grow long beards and stopped socialising."

Both are understood to have married, and Amjad, 28, is believed to have a baby daughter.

Builder Phil Redfern, who was at school with the brothers, said they began to shun mainstream mosques and instead frequented a smaller mosque behind a nearby Islamic bookshop.

Three other properties in the Buckinghamshire town were raided and Met Police search teams scoured an area of woodland called King's Wood half a mile away.

In Hepplewhite Close residents said Don Stewart-Whyte, 19, who had converted to Islam and grown a beard, was arrested.

One described him as a 'mummy's boy' who converted to Islam six months ago and married an Arab girl in recent weeks.

One neighbour said he had changed his name to Abdul Wahid. "The majority of his friends are Muslims and that's how he got interested in the religion.

Some say he was rebellious when he was a teenager but he wasn't that bad."

In Micklefield Road police stood guard outside a white-painted semi-detached house. Detectives carried out painstaking searches of the property, and a separate building in the back garden described as a "prayer room".

Police broke down the door of a bungalow on the opposite side of the same street to carry out further searches.

The house is believed to be home to a family originally from Pakistan, who bought it in 1987.

Since then neighbours have seen a stream of single men and women coming and going from the property.

Neighbourhood Watch coordinator Peter Whitelock, 77, said: "There were people coming and going from the house at all times of the night. There were all sorts people."

Neighbours said police took away Wassem Kayani from his home in Plomer Green Avenue, Downley, High Wycombe.

One said when she first saw Mr Kayani several years ago "he was in full-length white robe, had a full beard, very short cut hair and a little white hat.

"He did start to get a bit Westernised but he kept himself to himself."

Police armed with specialist equipment, including metal detectors, took over and occupied the three-bedroomed semi-detached house.

At least seven properties were raided in the Walthamstow area of East London.

A close family friend revealed that Asim Tariq, a security guard at Heathrow Airport, had been arrested in a dawn raid in a quiet residential street.

The 23-year-old had recently married and had a three-week-old baby called Axa and was described by neighbours as the "least religious" of the closely knit Muslim family. Mr Tariq was seen by neighbours being taken away in handcuffs from the family home just after 5am. He lives with his wife in the two-storey terrace home in Ravenswood Road.

The young Muslim lives with his father Hussain Tariq who owned a cleaning business until he retired. It is understood Asim's mother Khalida Tariq and his sister Kashif, 27, also lives at the family home.

Neighbours said police raided the Folkestone Road home of British-born Oliver Savant, 25, who changed his name to Ibrahim after becoming a devout Muslim some eight years ago.

'He supports Liverpool and his favourite food is burger and chips'

Retired fireman Paul Kleinman, 66, said: "I've known him since the day he was born. He was a very polite young man. Oliver started putting on Muslim robes and growing his beard long a few years back."

Another man arrested in Walthamstow was Waheed Zaman, a relative said.

The biomedical science student is head of the Islamic Society at London Metropolitan University.

His sister Nagina Zaman said: "My brother is a popular person and is not a terrorist. He is very open about his faith and teaches integration.

"As the head of the university's Islamic Society he has a very good rapport with people like Yvonne Ridley and George Galloway.

"He gets involved with all their Muslim events, but he is just a normal lad.

"He supports Liverpool and his favourite food is burger and chips. He is a British-born boy."

She added most of the Walthamstow suspects were thought to know each other as they had been pupils at Edinburgh Road Primary School.

Another of those arrested in Waltahmstow is believed to be Samih Ahmed, 22. About 20 police officers rammed the front door to his first-floor flat in Forest Road and spent yesterday picking through the contents of the property.

The 20-year-old man, one of four children, is understood to have paid cash for the £138,000 flat less than a month ago.

A family friend said: "Samih has always been polite. He is very religious and is always going to the mosque at the end of the road near the family home."
Police were also standing guard outside two houses in Albert Road, Walthamstow.

Neighbours said the man arrested at 61 Albert Road was Usman Saddique, 24, who works in a pizza takeaway. He was a childhood friend of Ibrahim Savant.

At the second address a neighbour said: "There was an elderly couple that lived there with four daughters, one was a foster child. I can't see how they could be caught up in terrorism."

Forensic officers were still searching a property at Queen's Road, Walthamstow, opposite the Masjid-e-Uma mosque. It is believed a man was arrested at the property.

Local man Amer Gull, 26, a shop superviser, said he was a childhood friend of Usman Saddique, Ibrahim Savant and Waheed Zaman.

Mr Gull said: "I know these guys and they aren't terrorists. Like most of us they don't like what's happening to Muslims in other countries, but we don't like what Osama Bin Laden or Al Qaeda are doing."

One suspect was still wearing his pyjamas when he was led away in handcuffs after police stormed a property in Barking.

His family said the man, known only as Altaf, was a newly-married 27-year-old tyre businessman who had been visiting Britain for the first time to see his wife's family in Forest Gate for a month-long holiday.

Two properties searched in Birmingham appeared to be owned by the same family.

At 3am, police smashed the door down at a four-bedroom terrace house in St Margarets Road in Ward End. Neighbours said Maroof Rauf, 19, and Abdul Rauf, 22, were arrested.

Until two four years ago, Rashid Rauf - named in the U.S. last night as one suspect arrested - was listed as living at the address.

©2006 Associated Newspapers Ltd

[Jake]

^
"He supports Liverpool and his favourite food is burger and chips. He is a British-born boy

LMFAO!

wow the above article just made me laugh.

Has anyone noticed that all the terrorists that we've heard about in the media in the last 5 years they have all been described as such good people?

I haven't heard of one person even saying something like: "His late-night travels were suspicious."

lol

[Fabrizio]

They seemed like nice enough people to me.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_uQ97AskJeQ

[Gregory Tenenbaum]

They seemed like nice enough people to me.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_uQ97AskJeQ

Thats the worst miming I have ever seen by guitarists and the saxophonist in history (having played the saxophone for almost 25 years I know).

The terrorists however, would not be miming. They would be committing outrageous acts if they weren't stopped.

These guys obviously have nothing else better to do in life, they are searching for meaning in life. I think that they must also be depressed, feeling that belonging to a cause and killing themselves is better than actually living life itself.

My view is that we should stop regarding these people as part of a greater terror organisation (however it seems from the media that Ive read that they were trained by one and they were certainly influenced by one) and regard them as failed citizens who have found no group to belong to or self identity in their own societies.

This could be as a result of the racism that exists in the UK, and almost everywhere else in the world, isolating these young muslims. As for the white guys, I dont know what the explanation is except that they had no self identity and felt that blowing people up was somehow better than being another anonymous member of society.

I am sure that we all would like to get back at schoolyard bullies and have our 15 minutes of fame, but these guys are crazy.

My remedy for getting these guys shamed: identify future terrorists as the new Chavs. That should shame them. Its just a pity that you cant spot them as easily - they dont all wear Burberry.

[nick-taylor]

^^ Its not to do with racism, its to do with the unfortunate trend that muslims tend to be isolating themselves in non-muslim societies. Britain for instance has as many muslims as the US - France and Germany have even more - if they don't integrate then we end up having those who can be warped by devious individuals.

The reason there hasn't been hordes of home-grown islamic fundamentalists in the US is simple: there are far too few muslims and those that are in the US are distributed across a very large area making interaction far less likely. I wouldn't however pass it past a few to try something in the future though.

[bubdanose]

I've read what y'al have said and agree with a lot of the comments that have been made....

I watched the BBC last evening and the news media is questioning, interrogating actually, the homeboys that arrested these terrorist suspects....Alleged is the operative word here....I say HOORAY for the BBC....

No wonder people question the governments, of both the USA and Britain, remember we are in a WAR WITH IRAQ????....and why again are we there????.... where are the weapons of mass destruction????....over 6,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq....does noone care????....ms rice was upset by the mindless killing taking place in the Israel-Hezbollah conflict....wish she would publicly decry the same mindless killing in Iraq....

Why didn't we go after Bin Laden and capture him????....the greatest nation in the world couldn't find him????....I don't want to hear the bigger picture theory....that doesn't hold water....the ole boy is alive and well and still plotting....

Why wouldn't terrorist go after the USA again????.... they got away with it before....many times before....we have had many people killed overseas by terrorists....what did our government do then????....embargos you say, hmmmmmmmmmmm that really worked....

There are many muslims that deplore what is taking place in the world. These extremists give all muslims a black eye....I truly believe the only way to rid ourselves of these terrorist muslims is for the lawful peace loving muslims, and there are many of them in the world, to stand up to the plate and condemn the crazies for bringing shame to their homeland and their religion....

I don't trust our government anymore, Bush the politicians....I have always questioned what I haven't understood.... I never thought I would feel this way, but I do....there is always a big question mark in the back of my mind now, when I hear anything....it saddens me beyond belief....

Now tear me apart:D

[ZippyTheChimp]

Britain for instance has as many muslims as the US
Where did you find an accurate number for the US, since our census does not permit collection of religious data. Numbers vary widely, and the percentage of peole who do not list a religious affiliation has tripled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States

The reason there hasn't been hordes of home-grown islamic fundamentalists in the US is simple: there are far too few muslims and those that are in the US are distributed across a very large area making interaction far less likelyThe US has far more sparsely populated land area than the UK. It is a distortion to assume that Muslims are equally spread out proportionally across the US.

The low number estimate for the number of Muslims in New York City alone is about 600,000. 7.5% of the population makes for plenty of opportunity to interact. There are probably more Muslims in the NYC metro area than in all the UK.

You don't solve a problem by saying that some other place would be just as bad if...

[Jake]

^Might be the reason why the mosque on Atlantic Ave has been a terrorist organizing center since the 1980s

Might also have something to do with the fact that captured al-queda members have been taching/recruiting at many mosques in the area, including the Islamic center in Bay Ridge.


Now let me give you an example, if the government wanted to investigate Christians organizing a crusade they could simply send anyone into a Church and noone would suspect anything. On the other hand how do you infiltrate a mosque that is in a basement and has 30 members, all of whom know each other well?

Muslims need to take some responsibility for their bad seeds. It is unfortunate that many good people are also muslim but if they don't do something to fix the problem in their own communities then they shouldn't complain about stereotyping. People should stop with this "he was a good boy" bullshit because I find it really hard to believe that nobody knew anything.

If "Obstruction of Justice" was actually an offense investigated in those communites I think we'd have a much safer world.

[Fabrizio]

Nick: re Muslims: "those that are in the US are distributed across a very large area ...."

Again Nick: WHAT are you talking about?

[ZippyTheChimp]

^Might be the reason why the mosque on Atlantic Ave has been a terrorist organizing center since the 1980sYour response to my post does not follow from my response to nick-taylor, who, I forgot to mention, has contradicted himself.

its to do with the unfortunate trend that muslims tend to be isolating themselves in non-muslim societies. and
there are far too few muslims and those that are in the US are distributed across a very large area making interaction far less likely.

[Jake]

Well actually I was referring to your info on the population of Muslims in NYC and that the mosque is an example of such an interaction.

Sorry that I didn't quote.

[Jake]

Here's their profile...or rather the lack of it.

Similar to the one on the previous page but it has some more info.

from the Toronto Star

Suspects led `fish and chip' livesA university student, a pregnant woman, an airport worker

— details emerge about 24 arrested in U.K. airline terror plot
Aug. 12, 2006. 08:57 AM
CAROLINE MALLAN
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

London—A pizza delivery guy, a security guard, a university student, an odd-jobs construction worker and a part-time electronics salesman are among the young British men suspected of plotting to blow up passenger jets headed to the United States.

The profile emerging of the alleged homegrown terrorists arrested by police in raids late Wednesday night and Thursday morning is of ordinary working-class people, most with jobs and close family ties.

Neighbours in the three communities where a total of 22 men and two women were taken into custody talk about normal, soccer-loving young men, most the sons of Pakistani immigrants who grew up eating fish and chips and watching British sitcoms in typical suburban townhouses.

Meanwhile, as investigators on three continents worked to flesh out details of the plot, Pakistani officials reported they had arrested as many as 17 more suspected conspirators in recent days. One of those, a British national named Rashid Rauf, is believed to have been the operational planner and to have connections with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, Pakistani and U.S. officials told Associated Press.

At least three of those arrested in Britain are converts to Islam, one just within the last six or seven months, and another one is a security guard at Heathrow airport, the scene of passenger chaos on Thursday as hundreds of flights were cancelled as authorities came to grips with drastic new security measures aimed at keeping planes safe in the air.

No details have been released about the two women arrested, one of whom is reported to be pregnant while the other is the mother of an infant. Both are believed to be the wives of two of the accused men. Those arrested range in age from 17 to 35.

One of the arrested men, Waheed Zaman, 23, is a well-known Muslim representative on the student council at London's Metropolitan University, where he studies biochemistry. His sister, who was with him in the family's east London house when police arrived to arrest her brother, told Britain's Sun newspaper he is a mainstream Muslim who is a proud Briton."He loves fish and chips and Liverpool football club," she said, adding that he is a "great believer in the importance of integration between our community and the Western world."

But for the better part of a year, police here have been shadowing the suspects as they went about their seemingly normal "fish and chip" lives, tracking their cellphone conversations, email and Internet access, bank accounts and even using GPS tracking devices on at least 12 cars belonging to suspects.Details of how police managed to break up an alleged suicidal plan to detonate disguised liquid explosives aboard as many as 10 planes bound from Britain to the U.S. continued to emerge yesterday — although British authorities remain reluctant to disclose too much information, sensitive to the justice system still to be navigated once the terror suspects are formally charged.

Media reports in Britain suggested the investigation into the bomb plot goes back almost a year after a tip-off from an informant in east London's Muslim community that led police to begin monitoring Internet traffic among several men. At least three of those men were already on the police radar, suspected of extremist tendencies.

What has yet to emerge is how the various suspects might be connected to one another. While more than half of those arrested come from the same east London suburb, there is no obvious connection between them and the group of four arrested in the north London suburb of High Wycombe or the two arrested in Birmingham.

Yesterday, police seized hard drives from Internet cafes in Reading and east London as they continued to gather vast amounts of evidence. The record of financial transactions, along with phone and computer records, could help investigators trace more people involved.

In recent months, police here have confirmed they believe there are as many as 1,000 Muslims living in Britain who sympathize with suicide bombings against western targets and who could be persuaded to join jihadist groups.

In December, the probe intensified as Britain's domestic spy agency MI5 called in the anti-terrorist branch of Scotland Yard to help.

The Guardian newspaper reported police decided to end their surveillance operation and launch the raids Wednesday night after a "go" message was forwarded to one of the alleged terrorists by an accomplice in Pakistan. The coded message, which the Guardian said was deciphered by the spy agency, followed the transfer of large amounts of money to the suspects — money investigators believe was to be used to buy airline tickets for would-be bombers.

Other media reports suggest police intercepted plans for a "dry run" to be carried out yesterday whereby the bombers would have carried the ingredients for liquid bombs through airport security to test whether their false-bottomed energy drink and pop bottles raised suspicion.

The Times newspaper said police felt they could not risk letting the bombers take another step closer to endangering planes and launched their simultaneous raids.London's Evening Standard reported the plotters apparently chose next Wednesday as a target date, since they had tickets for a United Airlines flight that day.

There were signs preparations stepped up recently. One of the houses raided by British police this week had been bought last month by two men in an all-cash deal, in a neighbourhood of $300,000 houses, neighbours said.

Early yesterday, the Bank of England website posted the names of 19 of the men in custody and stated their assets had been frozen by order of the government. The move came as the police followed the routine practice of not formally naming the suspects until they are officially charged.

One of the 24 detainees was freed later yesterday, but Scotland Yard didn't identify that person. Pakistani officials, meanwhile, said British information led to the first arrests in Pakistan about a week ago, of two British nationals, including Rauf, called a "key person" by the Pakistani foreign ministry.

Elsewhere, police in Italy raided Internet cafes, money-transfer offices and long-distance phone call centres catering to Muslims and arrested 40 people in a crackdown linked to Britain's announcement it had foiled the plot, authorities said.

On the streets of the east London neighbourhood of Walthamstow yesterday, young Muslim men gathered to denounce the arrests and voice skepticism that their neighbours might be capable of what police describe as "mass murder on an unimaginable scale.""They've got the wrong guys. I know they have," said Amir Gull, who said he works nearby. "I know these people and I know that they are peaceful people. T

hey would not do this."Others rallied around to point out that just two months ago, police raided a nearby house and arrested two brothers as terrorist suspects, accidentally shooting one of them in the shoulder.

A week later, both were released without charge and police confirmed they acted on false intelligence.Almost all of the latest British suspects still lived with their immigrant parents in working-class communities and held various part- or full-time jobs while attending prayers at mosque regularly. Only one was attending university and almost all wore traditional Islamic dress.Amin Asmin Tariq, 23, was the exception.

The Heathrow Airport security guard dressed in western-style clothing and was not considered by friends or neighbours to be religious. He is married with a young child. Airport authorities said Tariq was not assigned to passenger screening.

Muslim convert Oliver Savant, 26, was recently married to a Muslim woman and runs a business with his brother, who told the Sun newspaper yesterday that Savant, who now goes by the first name Ibrahim, is a loyal Briton. It was believed Savant's pregnant wife is among the suspects being held by police.In the upscale London suburb of High Wycombe, police evacuated homes and businesses around one raided business, where a string of garages in the back were cordoned off, leading to suspicion the property was being used as the bomb factory.

Police also arrested recent convert Don Stewart-Whyte, 21, as he arrived home with is wife. Stewart-Whyte, who changed his name to Abdul Waheed after his conversion early this year, is the half-brother of a former supermodel. His mother is a local high school teacher and his late father was a Conservative party worker.At Britain's airports yesterday, flights were getting back to normal after a long day of confusion on Thursday that saw hundreds of flights cancelled.

A spokesperson for BAA, which operates several major airports including London's Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, said about 70 per cent of domestic and short-haul flights would be taking off, but warned of continued delays.With files from Associated Press

[nick-taylor]

Where did you find an accurate number for the US, since our census does not permit collection of religious data. Numbers vary widely, and the percentage of peole who do not list a religious affiliation has tripled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States

The US has far more sparsely populated land area than the UK. It is a distortion to assume that Muslims are equally spread out proportionally across the US.

The low number estimate for the number of Muslims in New York City alone is about 600,000. 7.5% of the population makes for plenty of opportunity to interact. There are probably more Muslims in the NYC metro area than in all the UK.

You don't solve a problem by saying that some other place would be just as bad if...No that doesn't solve the problem but I wasn't alighting to that, merely indicating that to understand the problem and to create a solution we need to understand the geography and demographics of the situation.

It is interesting to point out however, that of the 14 estimates for the muslim population in the US, 9 of them are under 3mn, which suggests that the true figure would be closer towards that number. As for the UK, estimates for this year are at around 1.7mn in the UK, the 2001 census placed the figure at around 1.6mn, of these around 550,000 muslims reside in London, and those figures don't take into account those that decline to fill out the census or state their religion, nor if they are illegal immigrants, so the figure is probably higher - over 2mn I'd suspect.

Yet I should point out, that even if 7mn was the figure of muslims in the US (legal and illegal), that would still be below the 1.6mn census figure in regards to the population of both countries, ie the figure would need to be a minimum of 8mn to have a comparable population. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the UK (and France and Germany) have extensive muslim populations that date back several centuries, even the influence is far more extensive. How many muslims are there in Congress? Compare that to the Houses of Parliament.

Britain isn't going to adopt sharia law any time soon, but you can get sharia mortgages (major and small banks), its a country that saw its 'whitest' sport: cricket led by a muslim, while London not New York was the home for the exiled Iraqi government during the years of Saddam. There is a reason afterall that London was given the slur of Londonistan both due to its concentration of muslims but also dozens of good and bad islam-orientated organisations. Its also no suprise that outside their respective home countries, the richest arabs and muslims tend to have extensive interests in London first and then in say Paris or Istanbul. There is a reason afterall for the lack of major islamic companies in the US compared to Europe and even the UK.

Thats what makes it so troubling - they are a part of the great whole of Britain that have a pretty decent exposure in relation to the size of their population. Yet it would be incorrect to label it down to racism as Gregory Tenenbaum suggested, because the problem indicates more towards isolationism which is something exceptionally hard to break down. Does this indicate that we need more muslim voices within British politics - yes we probably do, infact I'd welcome even a few more extreme (not extremist) views, although saying that we do have George Gallaway and you all probably know how much of a handful he is and he's not a muslim! Funnily enough I don't like the guy nor agree with all his views, but if anyone wants to learn how to debate and crush an opponent - take heed from him!

Ill lastly add though that if the US muslim population is even higher....then what does this tell us about them within US society? That they somehow are more docile or that they are simply planning something? Its an awkward scenario but something I think we all need to address in the current mess of things.


Your response to my post does not follow from my response to nick-taylor, who, I forgot to mention, has contradicted himself.You can have concentrations of popuation at pin-point locations, but that these populations are more disconnected from one another, spread across a large area. The important point is if you have gone beyond the threshold within that certain area and the connections between those areas.

[ZippyTheChimp]

You can have concentrations of popuation at pin-point locations, but that these populations are more disconnected from one another, spread across a large area. The important point is if you have gone beyond the threshold within that certain area and the connections between those areas.
Huh? Are you serious?

I don't know how familiar you are with the New York metro area, but anyone here can tell you that there is a sufficient density and connection in the Muslim population to cause problems if they wanted to. Unless of course, they were in the UK, where density is bad, right?

Ill lastly add though that if the US muslim population is even higher....then what does this tell us about them within US society? That they somehow are more docile or that they are simply planning something?It doesn't tell me anything. Maybe they are all silently waiting for the signal to uprise against the Great Satan. Or maybe most of them are content in America, and just want to be out of the spotlight.

Your impulse to go tit-for-tat with Tenenbaum, an obvious Anglophobe, is leading to these illogical conclusions.

[Gregory Tenenbaum]

Your impulse to go tit-for-tat with Tenenbaum, an obvious Anglophobe, is leading to these illogical conclusions.

Uh, Zippy, theres a good reason I dont fly through Heaf-row these days. Have you seen the news?

An all access security worker there is a suspect in the latest terror plot.

Also, the British government has named and shamed Heaf-row as a monstrosity. I humbly agree with them.

Once you fly Cathay Pacific, or SAS, flying BA isnt an option. There's another reason I don't fly through Heaf-row.

And I like to stay in one piece.

Not being an Anglophobe, I watch a lot of BBC.

Read my post http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10291 and watch the BBC Documentary links there. Great BRITISH documentary and I'd be interested in your thoughts about it.

G.T.

PS And if you want to see a real Anglophobe - talk to some Britons. Look at how the average English person talks about the Welsh or Scots. I for one know English people who say they dont talk to people from the North (of their own country!)

You have to see see the bullying there to believe it.

I am against the racist schoolyard bullying that goes on in the UK, France and Holland that results in these young men being scarred for life, not fitting in and wanting to get back at their peers - this is increasingly being seen (especially in the UK) as one of the reasons these fanatics are carrying out these bombings (but a real contributor nonetheless).

[nick-taylor]

Huh? Are you serious?

I don't know how familiar you are with the New York metro area, but anyone here can tell you that there is a sufficient density and connection in the Muslim population to cause problems if they wanted to. Unless of course, they were in the UK, where density is bad, right?

It doesn't tell me anything. Maybe they are all silently waiting for the signal to uprise against the Great Satan. Or maybe most of them are content in America, and just want to be out of the spotlight.

Your impulse to go tit-for-tat with Tenenbaum, an obvious Anglophobe, is leading to these illogical conclusions.Where did I argue that it was density across the metro area that explained the issue? Fact is, the only way that there isn't major resentment is because the population is not as significant as you proclaim it to be. That or a pretty big disaster is being planned, hence it can not be down to racism because the general muslim population is a) more pronounced in UK society than in US society and b) has a greater voice in UK society. Fact is racism is not the problem here as GT is trying to suggest, but resentment caused by their own isolationism. Simply put its not an illogical scenario, but the greatest problem.

Then why allow him to post in the first place? He practically is a one-man army wrecking the integrity of the forum with his wild delusions, unbacked accusations and dated stereotypes.

[Gregory Tenenbaum]

Where did I argue that it was density across the metro area that explained the issue? Fact is, the only way that there isn't major resentment is because the population is not as significant as you proclaim it to be. That or a pretty big disaster is being planned, hence it can not be down to racism because the general muslim population is a) more pronounced in UK society than in US society and b) has a greater voice in UK society. Fact is racism is not the problem here as GT is trying to suggest, but resentment caused by their own isolationism. Simply put its not an illogical scenario, but the greatest problem.

Nick there is racism everywhere. Racism from what I read is only a small part of this. It takes a lot more than bitter memories of the schoolyard to conduct this type of conspiracy.

But there is a lot of racism in the UK, that can't be doubted. Don't take it personally please. There is racism everywhere. But I have met a lot of Londoners who say they'll never talk to northerners, welsh, scots; maybe they were speaking tongue in cheek and it was a joke - I didn't pick up the nuance of that.

Certainly with the recent problems in France with the riots, problems with the riots in England involving persons from the subcontinent, as well as local Britons, and problems in Holland with the riots and the assassination of the film director, there do seem to be more visible problems in the United Kingdom (and other parts of Europe) then say in New York City (although I do know the recent shooting in Seattle). We cant forget what McVeigh did also.

If you know of other examples we would all be interested in knowing about them. Of course there were also the alleged plots in Miami involving Sears Tower, the plot in Canada, and I'm sure some others to which we reported in the news.

[ablarc]

Materialism.

The cure for religion is materialism.

Muslims in Europe don't have as much stuff as muslims in America.

Get them more prosperous and the problem will wane.

The foot soldiers of terror are not rich like the man on top of the heap --and he doesn't get to be martyred, either.

Poor fellow, I feel for him. Also, I feel for all the imams who don't get to go because they have to stay and exhort the cannon fodder.

[Ninjahedge]

The foot soldiers of terror are not rich like the man on top of the heap --and he doesn't get to be martyred, either.

Poor fellow, I feel for him. Also, I feel for all the imams who don't get to go because they have to stay and exhort the cannon fodder.


Terrorists are not the only ones that use poor men to do their fighting....

*cough*RECRUITERS*cough*

[ablarc]

Terrorists are not the only ones that use poor men to do their fighting....

*cough*RECRUITERS*cough*
Proves my point. The princple applies universally. ;)

[BrooklynRider]

Muslims need to take some responsibility for their bad seeds. It is unfortunate that many good people are also muslim but if they don't do something to fix the problem in their own communities then they shouldn't complain about stereotyping.

I agree with you here.


If "Obstruction of Justice" was actually an offense investigated in those communites I think we'd have a much safer world.

I disagree here. We don't need more police, more reasons to arrest people and violate civil rights, and more people in jails.

[pianoman11686]

I used the word military to define a defeat that would happen in an actual war - cease fire, peace treaty, unconditional surrender, etc.

As for infrastructure damage, consider WWII bombing of civilian targets. The Allies bombed German industry, railways, and cities with the intention of getting the Third Reich to surrender.

The 09/11 attack is more like General Doolittle's 1942 air-raid on Japanese cites. The damage done did not appreciably affect Japan's ability to conduct the war, but was a tremendous morale booster for the American public.

I can't disagree with you there. The Doolittle raids are an appropriate analogy to 9/11, as well as the preceding U.S. embassy bombings. It proved to us that we were not untouchable, and it proved to Al Qaeda that they could get things done that generated a lot of attention, and furthered support among their audience.

But let me ask you this: did the U.S. continue to carry out these kinds of raids in World War II, once morale was already boosted? No. The attacks only grew more daring and more destructive, starting with the the firebombings of Tokyo, and culminating, of course, with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Now, I don't mean to draw parallels between the U.S. and Al Qaeda, for obvious reasons. But I do see the logicality in a progression of attacks, in both number and severity. It invariably occurs in every protracted conflict that has one side engaging in assymetric warfare; eventually, there will be an attack planned (and hopefully intercepted, for our sakes) that will be meant to do long-term economic and infrastructure damage. I view the latest plan as just another "hitting the neighborhood bully" example, and not coinciding with what I believe to be Al Qaeda's long-term strategy. Again, that is only my opinion, and I don't have any concrete evidence to back that up.

I don't know what the ultimate goal of bin Laden and the cave dwellers is, but their support comes from people who see themselves as constantly humiliated by the Western World. In a sense, even the liberation of Iraq from a despot is seen by many in the Middle East as another humiliation.

This is the ultimate goal, as stated in the 1998 fatwa:

[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda#_note-0)

[nick-taylor]

Materialism.

The cure for religion is materialism.

Muslims in Europe don't have as much stuff as muslims in America.

Get them more prosperous and the problem will wane.

The foot soldiers of terror are not rich like the man on top of the heap --and he doesn't get to be martyred, either.

Poor fellow, I feel for him. Also, I feel for all the imams who don't get to go because they have to stay and exhort the cannon fodder.Ironically I think its the reverse - look around European society and there are swathes of muslims in high positions, be it in sprts, politics or business. Now do the same for the US - hard to do so right? I think the movement of some European muslims towards a westernised lifestyle, is what has alienated swathes of the population. Jealousy and a requirement by some youths to try and find their identity has led them towards isolation and hence made them easy pickings to be cultivated by corrupted immams.

Afterall, European countries like Britain, France, Germany, etc.... have far 'better' wealth equality meaning most of the population is more equal. Compare that to the US where I suspect muslims would be located far below their fellow muslims in Europe. Increasing the prosperity of what would end up to be a select few of the population wouldn't do anything but to worsen the situation. That and you'd see calls of unfair specialised treatment that has no guarantee to work!

[ZippyTheChimp]

But let me ask you this: did the U.S. continue to carry out these kinds of raids in World War II, once morale was already boosted? No. The attacks only grew more daring and more destructive, starting with the the firebombings of Tokyo, and culminating, of course, with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

No, because there was an ultimate objective - unconditional surrender of the Axis powers. It would be foolish for Al Qaeda and dangerous for the Middle East to put the US in a position where its very existence was threatened. Then you head toward Bob's total war. But if you're recruiting followers with the objective of overthrowing regimes, these symbolic acts give you legitimacy in their eyes.

This is the ultimate goal, as stated in the 1998 fatwa:

[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al- Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.
They want the historical Islamic lands to be entirely Muslim - no US, no Europe, no Israel, no other religions. That goal is now closer since we've conveniently destabilized Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a big obstacle for Al Qaeda. He was completely secular, and only used religion to control a large segment of the population (Shiites) with a smaller group (Sunnis).

[Gregory Tenenbaum]

Stop arguing about this muslim citizen is richer than that one already.

And watch this brilliant documentary.

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10291

It's jaw dropping. And it says a lot about the power of governments and the media generally, something which seems to be affecting both sides in this "war".

[ZippyTheChimp]

Afterall, European countries like Britain, France, Germany, etc.... have far 'better' wealth equality meaning most of the population is more equal. Compare that to the US where I suspect muslims would be located far below their fellow muslims in Europe.I'm not going to make analytical statements about societies that I have a cursory knowledge of, but in the case of France, with its recent highly publicized Muslim unrest, there seems to be a systemic problem.

In the case of the US: While there are conflicting reports and studies on the number of Muslims in America, almost all agree that their economic standing in America is above the national average. Their racial complaints seem to be centered on the way they are treated in situations, like riding in an airplane, and not economic opportunity.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Uh, Zippy, theres a good reason I dont fly through Heaf-row these days. Have you seen the news?

Uh, Gregory, we all know. How can we not. You manage to get it almost every thread with any connection to the UK. If you don't tone it down, your posts will start to disappear.