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musicial
September 16th, 2006, 10:28 AM
A photo from Istanbulhttp://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3958/eemreeemaslakdiamondofistanbul.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 10:30 AM
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/dinyeper/levent.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 10:33 AM
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/7/72/Istanbul_levent.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 10:37 AM
http://people.umass.edu/bayrakta/istleandertower.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 11:03 AM
pictures

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 11:06 AM
pictures

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 11:14 AM
http://istanbul.indymedia.org/images/istanbul-20kasim2003k.jpg

After september 11 in Now-York Taliban has also attackted to Istanbul to the headquarter of HSBC Bank in Istanbul.... The accusation was that Turkey was supporting USA in it's terror fight. ... But the terrorist was attacting to Turkey in those times.....

HoboSapian
September 16th, 2006, 11:15 AM
Thats Turkey? Looks awesome. :) :D

HoboSapian
September 16th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Thats Turkey? Looks awesome. :) :D

Oops I didnt see the last picture lol. :(

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Thats Turkey? Looks awesome. :) :D

Turkey is a marvelous country. you are wrong! I am going to introduce Turkey to New Yorkers and to Americans here.

HoboSapian
September 16th, 2006, 11:27 AM
I didn't say it was bad. I thought it looked great from the pictures. But if that last picture reflects Turkey today then thats sad.

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 11:31 AM
Oops I didnt see the last picture lol. :(

http://www.viessmann.de/turkey/www/tr_bib.nsf/Files/demirb1/$file/demirb1.jpg

The picture, that you saw lastly and was attacted by the Taliban after a short period of time of September 11, was this picture before taliban attacks. This building was the headquarters of HSBC Bank in Istanbul

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 11:40 AM
I didn't say it was bad. I thought it looked great from the pictures. But if that last picture reflects Turkey today then thats sad.

there took place a confusion between us, anyway.... turkey is really like a european country. But there are some effects of islamic countries upon Turkey, because Turkey population believes in Islam. It seems to me that this effect is inevitable... When Turkey seems to be in the Western side, this time it has been attacted by the islamic terrorist, or accused by islamic countries, or attacted morally from islamic countries' media or by their population or by the islamic extremists.

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 12:01 PM
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~hbwang/photo/pcd4856/Ankara-10-Atatuk.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 12:02 PM
http://ranger.uta.edu/~alp/personal/ankara.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 12:06 PM
http://p.vtourist.com/1078513-Travel_Picture-Izmir.jpg

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 12:10 PM
http://aton.ttu.edu/images/pics/15-09-izmir.jpg

ablarc
September 16th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Because there are skyscrapers in Dubai and China, we should support their entry into the EU.

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 01:08 PM
Because there are skyscrapers in Dubai and China, we should support their entry into the EU.

:) this is good, what you say. of course that is not the reason. I aimed to give some pictures from Turkey before I start writing about the topic. I continue some time sending views related to Turkey. And these were the pictures I could find. I am gonna write my reasons for why Americans should support Turkey on the way of EU Membership.

Jake
September 16th, 2006, 03:36 PM
Why would Americans need to support Turkey for EU membership, we have no say, actually what we say the EU will probably do the opposite.

Besides in the other thread it says that something like 12% of Turks "like" America so I see no reason why we should help.

musicial
September 16th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Why would Americans need to support Turkey for EU membership, we have no say, actually what we say the EU will probably do the opposite.

That is exactly one reason for why Americans should support Turkey. After the second world war and with the Marshall Help to Europe from USA, especially Germany has been recovered economically. Then there had to be a political unity in Europe. These two steps have been fullfilled till now. Europe now needs a military unification. USA does not accept this. In this sense USA is a side. Because USA does not approve of the military unification in Europe, this final project is in deep freeze now. With this project, Europe wants to announce to the world that there is a second giant military power in the world after the collapse of Soviet Union. Europe, according to me, especially with the leadership of two countries in Europe (leading economic power Germany and leading military power France) is trying to be a number one military power in the world. In this way, Germany could also break the negative chains of the World War II. As you know Germany is a giant economic power but this country as a result of the second world war is forbidden to have a dangerous (big and very powerful) army for every purpose, this country can only have a symbolic army. Otherwise this country can suddenly be a danger for the world for a third time. Nobody can give a guarantee for this. And it is for me a fact that in Europe nationalism is going on silently and deeply. Americans are in this sense are not nationalist (small proportion is always an exception) but patriotist. In this sense, Turks and Americans are alike. Turks generally rejects nationalism. That is a one important reason why Americans should support Turkey. If Turkey combine with EU and could be effective in judging and decesion making institutions in Europe, then Turkey could prevent nationalist and religious one-side based decesions. That is not only important for Turkey but also important for USA.

Besides in the other thread it says that something like 12% of Turks "like" America so I see no reason why we should help.


This proportion is wrong. The latest statistics says that 40% of Turks likes USA. 51% does not like USA. and the rest has no idea about USA. If you did statistics in Turkey before 10years , you could get such an answer that 75%of Turks like USA, 5%dislikes and 10% do not have any idea. Why does the Turks are so disunified in loving USA now must be another topic. but it seems to me that the ongoing politics of USA in the Middle East in the last 2 decades were wrong and very much bloody and because of the religious ties of Turkey with middle east, the people in Turkey percieve that this situation is unfair and accuse of USA government.

From your point of view, because you used "help", I understand that What America should do for Turkey as a support is a help! American support to Turkey is not an help, on the contrary, it is something that brings what is good to Americans as a feedback, as well. How far and how long can USA prevent European Military Unification. Turkish and English people together as a catalyst in front of European nationlism can prevent a potential danger to the rest of the world. Do not forget that European sometimes say that England is also actually not in Europe and accepting England's membership to EU was wrong.

milleniumcab
September 16th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Turkish ambitions to join the EU will probably be a disaster for that country.. The process of so called "democratization" of Turkey will ultimately allow drastic changes to the constitution and give way to many different problems which Turkey is not prepared to deal with... Especially if they get rejected by EU, which most likely to be the case...

Some of those problems are already surfacing...

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 05:14 AM
Turkish ambitions to join the EU will probably be a disaster for that country.. The process of so called "democratization" of Turkey will ultimately allow drastic changes to the constitution and give way to many different problems which Turkey is not prepared to deal with... Especially if they get rejected by EU, which most likely to be the case...

Some of those problems are already surfacing...

Thanks for this constructive criticism. Turkish ambitions to join the EU is stemmed from the fact that a EU without Turkey inside would probably or could probably be a dangerous and may be threative Union for Turkey in the future. After a military unification in Europe, EU could also be a dangerous and threative Union like ex-Soviet Union for the rest of the world. I am going to give an example for how biased decesions are being made by EU organs: Everybody knows Cyrprus. Cyrus is an island in the East Mediterrenean Sea. Cyprus is now divided into two parts. Nordern Turkish Republic of Cpyrus and Southern Greekish Cyprus. Actually before 1974 there was one Cyprus. 1/4th of its population was Turkish and the rest was Greeks. Both etnicities have been living in one Cyprus since app. 500 years together. Before 1974 Greeks started 3 times ethnical claerance (Greek nationalism) on the island. Greeks were killing and suiciding the Turks systamatically. Turkey has interfered the situation and has made a militarily peace movement to the island. The island has been divided into two parts(but since then there has been no ethnical problem on the island). After this division, Europe and USA have made an amborgo on Nordern Turkish side. Southern greek part has been acknowledged as the official representatives of the island. And Southern part of the island with narcotic trade, with clearing black money etc. in short making everything illegal, has reached 25.000 dolar GNP pro person today but with amborgo obstacle Nordern side has stayed at 3.000 dolar pro person GNP today (After years, USA has learned the island's reality and announeced to the world that USA is sorry for implementing amborgos on Northern side, USA was sorry, it was wrong). But European countries were in silence and are still in silence!!!! Plus with a biased decesion of EU, the Southern part has been a EU Member before 3 years. (The same Europe was saying to Turkey at those times that Turkey is not in Europe, only a small part of Turkey was in Europe but an island on east mediterrenean sea plus with problems on the island was at the heart of Europe)
You see how biased could be a EU without Turkey's membership. Law is actually a spider network. If you are a big insect (hausefly), you could hole through, if you are a small fly, you can't. If Europe could have been militarily united today, the Americans would also see how dangerous could it be for the rest of the world. Turkey knows it because Turks have been living at the same geography since 1000years.

Related to your comments, I know that the so-called democratization process in Turkey do not result in a collapse or in an unwanted results in Turkey. It is right that this process is not going forward painless. There are some pains. but this process must go on further. It does not make a serious problem for the future of Turkey. Full domocratization and open society are the ultimate target of Turkey. Everybody in Turkey should say his opinion without any fear.

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 08:13 AM
golden horn district in Istanbul

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 08:15 AM
Maslak district of Istanbul,

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 08:17 AM
a photo from sea side (golden horn side)

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 08:19 AM
a view from Bosphorus

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 08:29 AM
Sorry! this is a photo from Bosphorus, the previous photo was the historic halb island side of istanbul

HoboSapian
September 17th, 2006, 09:08 AM
It's beautiful. It's a shame that terrorists want to destroy it.

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 09:55 AM
It's beautiful. It's a shame that terrorists want to destroy it.

Thank you very much for your appreciation.Unfortunately, terrorists have also attacted to Turkey after september 11. And they are saying that they do this attackt for the sake of god (=Allah). that is unbelievable. Look at Taliban terrorists and Usame bin Laden particularly. I see that this people have been coming from Stone age mentally. In the core of every relegion, there is a basic idea that human beings must work for good things. but taliban is saying that they are doing their events under the umbrella of Islam.... What a shame and what an unfortunate this saying is for this people..... according to me, these are problematic people. Whether they did not see enough mother love from their mothers or having erection problems, or poverty; in other words a personal or social problem, or an economic problem cause this people to do their actions..... I do not know why... I am not a psychologist. What I know, because they are doing terror actions and because they are saying that they are doing their actions for the sake of Allah, all the so-called western countries and their population (lastly the Benedict XVI from Vatikan) with their sayings are hurting the Turks in Turkey. There is a confusion in this respect in so-called western countries. Turkey is a modern, secular, social country and is governed with law, not with relegion. However, a lot of middle eastern countries, governed with islamic laws and radical islamic countries like Iran make also an influence on Turkish population in Turkey. That is a second reason why Turkey must be tied with EU strictly as a full member of EU. Turkey has westernian ideals, a democratic land but this ideals must not fade away with the influence of middle eastern and other islamic countries' influences......

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 12:40 PM
without Turkey's membership, EU can turn to be a new cultural ghetto in the world, but with Turkey's membership we see a multi-dimensional Europe that brings new ideals and new trends to the world, just like USA had brought at the end of the first quarter of 20th century, namely democracy, freedom, etc. The only multi-cultural land in the world is USA, that is why Americans know how good it is to be multi-cultural. This is a third reason for why Americans should support Turkey on this way. At Ghettos radical ideals somehow appear one day. EU should not be a cultural ghetto. This would also be an advantage for USA.

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 12:44 PM
did you know that the highest scyscraper of Europe is in Turkey but not in Istanbul. It is in Mersin, a city on the southern coast of Turkey, Mediterrenean Sea.

musicial
September 17th, 2006, 12:48 PM
a view of pure nature from Turkey, Turkey has hunderts of thousand such places... pure natural places.

milleniumcab
September 17th, 2006, 09:14 PM
When Ataturk wrote the modern Turkey's constitution, he based it on Nationalism. Yes it is a secular constitution but without it's nationalist and unitary values, it can not survive..Look what is happening under the current party, AKP.. Religion and religious values are surpassing secularism in many different parts and cities of the country..This ruling party is taking advantage of the so called " democratization process" and slowly but surely taking control of the core institutions of government..Most important one is The Education Ministry.. By doing so they are taking charge of the education of Young Turks and shaping their minds to their values which are heavily based on religion..

The other parties on the left and the right don't seem to be wise enough to see the need to unite in order to take back the control of the government at the next elections.. All they are doing is trying to ignite the nationalist feelings but they are bound to fail even if they succeed in turning majority of people against AKP because, I believe, the votes will be divided among too many parties..

Democracy is a great asset to any country or groups of people for equality among individuals..But it was a difficult challenge in Turkey and it remains as such..Ataturk was a great leader and he knew Turkey's demographics made it impossible to create a constitution which is based on individual freedoms, such as our constitution here in America..

Turkey's constitution is as democratic as it's demographics can handle and it must stay that way..

I believe it is the intention of EU to force Turkey to become too Democratic for her own good..They have not even a little bit of intention of excepting her into The Union..

milleniumcab
September 17th, 2006, 09:38 PM
America is a multi-cultural country because her creation was based on immigration and immigrants...

“The New Colossus”
by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

================================================== ========


Turkey is a multi-ethnical country because she was created from the ashes of The Ottoman Empire after a courageous war that was lead by one of the greatest leaders, if not the greatest, this world will ever see..

Her constitution had to press for national unity because the ashes would remain hot for many years to come and they haven't cooled yet...


Happy is the man who calls himself a Turk!...

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

milleniumcab
September 17th, 2006, 10:28 PM
One more thing,

The Ottoman Empire was the best thing that happened to Europe .. It united otherwise divided Europe against a common enemy before they self distructed, early 1600s..

I am very skeptical but I hope I am wrong and the EU wise up to see the benefits of having Turkey in the Union..

scillers
September 17th, 2006, 10:45 PM
The European Union is a terrible organization, bent on socialism, and appeasement of the Islamic relegion, and terrorism, and regularly goes against America, like the UN. Countries around the world better wake up and realize that America has been fighting for the freedom of people , and countries since 1776, and helping and winning wars for others countries, if America dosn't get more help, the bad guys in the world are going to take over, and look at what they offer, no rights, no freedoms, no choices, wake up world!

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 11:08 AM
When Ataturk wrote the modern Turkey's constitution, he based it on Nationalism. yes but this nationalism is not a racist nationalism, this nationalism is named as turkish because Atatürk had to find a name for it. Ottoman Empire was under invasion and that is why people at those times were in depression, people needed to have a concept to combine around. and Atatürk found this concept he called it turkish. if we leave every discussions aside, we can say as Ataturk meant or implied that turkish people are the peope who are living in that country. The constitution defines that every person who is tied with law to Turkey, with Turkey's ID Card, he/she is a Turk. it is true that in Turkey there are different sub-cultures, in this sense Turkey and USA are asimilar. In Turkey, there are people with Greekish origin, arabic origin, people from Georgia, people from Armenia, kurdish people etc. etc, etc, etc. No sub-etnicity in America wants to make a hole in his ship on the ocean, but in Turkey especially kurdish people (not as a whole, only a very small portion "racist kurdish people") with PKK terror on the south east part of Turkey and the racist people from Armenia origin try to make a hole in Turkey's basics( another ship on the ocean) There are very much big discussions in Turkey in every level and and there are to-media-leaked evidences that some big European countries are ideologically and financially pumping or feeding these people... Turkey thinks about it "WHY"!? The only cause Turkey finds that Turkey should always be stayed with headacke and must be struggled with these artifical problems!!! Turkey belives that in Europe there is etnical nationalism in Europe after 1786 French revolution. May be 70percent(?) of the people in Turkey have already forgotten their sub etnicity and these people are very much angry to the people who are still making sub ethnic popularism in Turkey. seeing this ethnical popularism in Turkey, this 70%feel themselves that they were idiots, because they had already forgotten their sub etnicities. This is the nationalism is Turkey. Yes it is a secular constitution but without it's nationalist and unitary values, it can not survive(I explained this situation above)..Look what is happening under the current party, AKP.. Religion and religious values are surpassing secularism in many different parts and cities of the country..This ruling party is taking advantage of the so called " democratization process" and slowly but surely taking control of the core institutions of government..Most important one is The Education Ministry.. By doing so they are taking charge of the education of Young Turks and shaping their minds to their values which are heavily based on religion.. You are right, I am surprised, you define this situation without an error , no mistake, congratulations to you. I explain the sitution to you: the Army in Turkey and 80 % of the populition in Turkey (majority in silence) are following silently for the moment. These people and army(army takes it's right from constitution, what army does is legal, that is also a task for turkish army to protect Turkey from dangers caming from home) hope that AKP will shake up one day without any drive or impulse. AKP is like an ostrich, not thinking that the big portion of it can be seemed easily. AKP is only hiding its head.... this is no problem! I think that in the next election, public will downgrade this party, may be a coalition comes again... coalitions are actually bad for Turkey.

The other parties on the left and the right don't seem to be wise enough to see the need to unite in order to take back the control of the government at the next elections.. All they are doing is trying to ignite the nationalist feelings but they are bound to fail even if they succeed in turning majority of people against AKP because, I believe, the votes will be divided among too many parties..You are right again. these parties are interested in their own egos. That is why actually AKP found a gap to govern Turkey in the last elections. AKP was the only alternative but not a party that gives trust to the public. Public had no other choice.

Democracy is a great asset to any country or groups of people for equality among individuals..But it was a difficult challenge in Turkey and it remains as such..Ataturk was a great leader and he knew Turkey's demographics made it impossible to create a constitution which is based on individual freedoms, such as our constitution here in America..

Turkey's constitution is as democratic as it's demographics can handle and it must stay that way..

I believe it is the intention of EU to force Turkey to become too Democratic for her own good..They have not even a little bit of intention of excepting her into The Union.. Especially Germany and France do not want Turkey into the Union because these two lands want to shape and drive the whole Union with their weight in European Parlement. Turkey is big and powerful enough for these two lands. That is why these two lands do not want to share their authority with Turkey in the Union. According to me, England is a problem for these two lands that why these two lands see that one problem is enough to deal with. Germany and France do not want to see A second big land like Turkey in the Union. Don't forget that during and at the beginning of Iraq war, German, French and sometimes Russian leaders are giving posts together to the papers and were denying a lot things what USA says.


AMERICANS AND USA government must get the concept and idea and should support Turkey further on EU Membership, also for it's own advantage.

lofter1
September 18th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Will Turkey be able to comply with all that is required for full membership into the EU regarding, both economics + human rights?

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Happy is the man who calls himself a Turk!...

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

That is exactly the nationalism concept in Turkey. This saying implies no racism, everybody is equal in Turkey. This concept is actually like the concept of "Americans". As concept "Americans" are the people who are living in America, some have spanish origin, some have british origin, some have german, some have chinese origin etc. etc. etc. etc. In these days, I hear that lots of people is coming to California from Mexico and these people are also ready to forget about their ethnicity.... May be If Atatürk had called it Anatolianers, instead of "Turks", this confusion had already been surpassed by now....

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 11:18 AM
Will Turkey be able to comply with all that is required for full membership into the EU regarding, both economics + human rights?

Yes I hope so, as far as I know, and I fallow Turkey is trying to do her best on this way...

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 11:38 AM
One more thing,

The Ottoman Empire was the best thing that happened to Europe .. It united otherwise divided Europe against a common enemy before they self distructed, early 1600s.. I think "No". Ottomans was powerful till the beginning of 17th century. Till this date, Ottomans was controlling the whole East Europe including half of the city Vienna in Austria, whole African Lands including Morocco, the whole Middle East and the whole north black Sea Lands. After the middle of 17th century Ottomans lost power and lost the lands gradually or step by step...Today's EU has begun with chance between France and Germany after world war II, namely after 1945. These two lands had seen with time that EU has begun as economic union then it turned to be a political union at 1980s. With the developments these two lands had seen that why they turn the Union to be a military power.... This would be a great idea!!!! So these two lands with the union power can turn to be a number 1 military power. And so American dominance to Europe can come to an end.... France and Germany actually gave lots of clues that they are not so much happy with american power... This is just a theory and need to be proved!!! I am not sure about it.

I am very skeptical but I hope I am wrong and the EU wise up to see the benefits of having Turkey in the Union.. I am also very skeptical, that is why opened this topic and want to share my ideas with you as a whole....

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 11:45 AM
Will Turkey be able to comply with all that is required for full membership into the EU regarding, both economics + human rights?

I want to give you a little bit more complicated answer for your question. From human right aspect or law aspect, 95%of the regulations, that are neeeded for EU Membership, have already been approved by turkish parlement and these regulations are implemented today in Turkey.

From economics point of view, turkey has now app. 5000dolar GNP per person/per annum. if we look at this amount of money from purchasing power parity in Turkey, we see that it is equal to app. 20.000dolars in Germany. That means that Turkey is not a poor country! but revenue allocation is a big problem in Turkey. it means that This money is not divided equally into the society but extremely bad.....

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 11:53 AM
The European Union is a terrible organization, bent on socialism, and appeasement of the Islamic relegion, and terrorism, and regularly goes against America, like the UN. Countries around the world better wake up and realize that America has been fighting for the freedom of people , and countries since 1776, and helping and winning wars for others countries, if America dosn't get more help, the bad guys in the world are going to take over, and look at what they offer, no rights, no freedoms, no choices, wake up world!

Americans are not alone. Don't worry. Lots of people in Turkey love America but these people in Turkey are a little bit disappointed because of the last years political mistakes (may be these are not mistakes but turkish public think that these are mistakes) of USA. because of this they prefer seeming to be opposite to USA. I think It is not a permanent situation.

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 04:31 PM
St. Irene Church, St.Stephan Church and St. Antonie Church In Istanbul....
Who can say that the Turks do not have any tolerance to other relegions!!! If the Turks were racist, untolerable , these monuments in Turkey could not surrender till now!! the whole Eastern Europe, after 500years turkish dominance with Ottoman Empire, cannot stay as Cristians today and all the eastern Europe, all the middle east, all nord african lands would speak Turkish today.... but the Turks had enforced nothing, had left all cultures free.

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 04:33 PM
bosphorus bridge and eminönü district in Istanbul

Transic
September 18th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Good afternoon and welcome to Wired NY Forum. I hope that you find your stay here worthwhile. :)

First of all, while I share many concerns about the rise of Islamofascism, I don't go nearly to the extreme as the scillers of the world try to promote. Simply, I intend to bring up points that other forumers here aren't exposed to enough and attempt to persuade as many readers (and some of the other forumers) as possible to what we're faced with.

But that's for another time. This topic is concerning Turkey and what prospects she has to enter into the EU as a full member. So I'll stick to that for now.

The way I see it, it will take another two decades at least (assuming that the final outcome is what the Turkish leadership hopes for) to smooth over what seems to be a heck of an amount of differences concerning domestic, foreign policies; historical events; economic and cultural barriers; the role of religion in politics; the status of women and minorities; education; the role of the military, etc. It is like running a rat through a maze: at what point does the "rat" want to continue looking for a way to the other side, without the guarantee of there being cheese once out? Can the Turks find what they're hoping for should they enter the EU?

Also, how would they convince the average French, German, Italian or British citizen that they also benefit from Turkish entry? As an aside, I don't think there will be any danger of an "autoctonous continental Europe" becoming a geopolitical threat for one simple reason: demographics. The average birth rate in places such as Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria are currently insufficient to repopulate those countries. In the meantime, the rate for minorities (read: Muslims) are much higher. There is a growing fear that France, Germany and even Spain will no longer be what they are 50-60 years from now and that people native to those countries will find themselves disadvantaged and their rights curtailed or forced to flee what was then their nations. You are, I'm sure, familiar with the issues concerning ethnic Turks living in Germany today. Multiply that by X number and you may look at what things might be in 2080 or so. In fact, there looks to be a greater chance of civil strife than a military aggression outwards from within continental Europe.

This is what I think is behind the hesitation of admitting Turkey into the EU. They fear that Turkish entry would be battery ram that pushes all of these over the edge. Whether that scenario would pan out remains to be seen.

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Toros Mountains in Turkey, Topkapı Palace, that was the headquarter of Ottoman Empire (administration office of the Empire), and historic ships in Istanbul, with these ships, transportation between two sides of Istanbul is still being made)

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Van, a city on Eastern Turkey, you see the picture of Van lake.
Urfa, a city in south eastern part of turkey, you see a touristic place photo
Side, a small touristic city on the mediterrenean coast of Turkey

musicial
September 18th, 2006, 04:47 PM
first picture is the blue mosque in Istanbul (left from Ottoman times)
second picture new mosque in Istanbul " " "
third picture is the railway station in Asiatic side of Istanbul (left from ottomans times again)

milleniumcab
September 18th, 2006, 11:28 PM
This is what I think is behind the hesitation of admitting Turkey into the EU. They fear that Turkish entry would be battery ram that pushes all of these over the edge. Whether that scenario would pan out remains to be seen.

Your comments about the subject is well thought out.. That is why I am very sceptical about Turkey joining the EU, no matter how hard they try..But at the same time, all this democratization process can not be good for the long term outlook of Turkey and the Middle East...

With Iraq out of the balancing process, a weak Turkey will present even more dangerous situation in a region vital to the world economy for many more years to come..And too much Democracy will proove to be a disaster for Turkey..

I think I might have said this somewhere in this forum once before and that is; Democracy is a concept that must be used by people according to need.. A country can not try to adopt more than it can use.

If that's the idea of EU and US and we are hoping that a Kurdistan will fill the shoes of Turkey in the future, we are saddly mistaken...The Kurds are very tribal people and have been at odds with each other among the two main tribes that are controling the power in Kurdistan.. The Talabani tribe have been at war with the Barzani tribe for years..The only thing that's holding back that power struggle is a common cause. Once that common goal is reached, that is creating a Kurdistan, I am certain that war for power will resume and we will have another country we support with internal problems..

This is what I think about everytime our president comes on and says " he has a new vision for the Middle East"..
Why destroy a pretty stable democratic and secular ally with a muslim majority population , just to create an unstable country with hopes of controling just a small share of the oil in the Middle East

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Good afternoon and welcome to Wired NY Forum. I hope that you find your stay here worthwhile. :)

Thank you and good morning.

First of all, while I share many concerns about the rise of Islamofascism, I don't go nearly to the extreme as the scillers of the world try to promote. Simply, I intend to bring up points that other forumers here aren't exposed to enough and attempt to persuade as many readers (and some of the other forumers) as possible to what we're faced with. Just I want to say some about the concept of Islamofascism. Terrorists are saying that they are doing their actions for Islam sake. It is nonsense to me! I also know some about Islam and there is no fascism or agression in Islam. The terrorists are problematic people. the western civilization (namely, democracy, freedem, equality, science) must be an envy for the underdeveloped (islamic) countries. that is why these countries' societies may be unintentionally!? created these kind of terrorists(like usame bin Laden). Do not repeat please what the terrorists say. By saying that they are doing their terrorist actions for the sake of Islam, they try to get a support from Islamic countries populations. Look at Hizbullah terror in Lebanon. They are not making a war with Israel for example. They grasped two Israeli soldier from the border. What is that shit!. make a war or be silent! don't do terrorist attacts. then Hizbullah said that they did this for Islam. It is a ballshit! why they are saying this!? they want to get a support from the public. Story is actually very simple to understand. And the western countries created the concept of islamofascism. You are falling inside this terrorist game. Be aware of it. What you are faced with, Turkey is also faced with. Taliban has attacted two times to turkey after September II. There are Jewish population in Turkey. Ottomans have saved 6times the Jewish from European Jewish genecide. Jewish love Turkey more than the Turks(I guarentee you). How the Jewish are working for Turkey's membership to EU, you do not know about it!!!!! Jewish population in Turkey is an organ of Turkey. Jewish are saying that they are turks but their religion is different. That is all. Now "CNN Turk INT" says that Taliban has killed a Turk in Afgahnistan grasped in last month. Do not say please that Turkey is not faced with with Terror. Turkish army is now operating in Aphganistan together with USA army. Turkey was also together with USA army in Vietnam, in Kosovo. Turkey could not support actively but supported logistically in Iraq war, because EU said that If you do it, forget about EU membership. Turkey's problem is that Turkey should take a role in EU judging organs and decesion making organs. Turkey has no more hope. EU is actually skin of it's nose. Just politically want Turkey to be inside of EU. Support it!
But that's for another time. This topic is concerning Turkey and what prospects she has to enter into the EU as a full member. So I'll stick to that for now.

The way I see it, it will take another two decades at least (assuming that the final outcome is what the Turkish leadership hopes for) to smooth over what seems to be a heck of an amount of differences concerning domestic, foreign policies; historical events; economic and cultural barriers; the role of religion in politics; the status of women and minorities; education; the role of the military, etc.(In europe there is also differences between them, one side are Latins; italy, spain, portugal, the other side is eastern Europe, the other side is north baltic lands. the other side is Anglo-Saxonian Lands. On the other hand, there are orthodoxes, catholics, presbyterians, protestants.... Turkey has one more difference, Islam:( :confused: . Turkey is also a european country. but islam must be something managable. Turkey rejects radical comments of Islam. It is like running a rat through a maze: at what point does the "rat" want to continue looking for a way to the other side, without the guarantee of there being cheese once out? Can the Turks find what they're hoping for should they enter the EU?

Also, how would they convince the average French, German, Italian or British citizen that they also benefit from Turkish entry? (only German and French population do not want it, all other are either the lawyer of Turkey inside EU or indifferent about it, esp. Italiens, Spain and England are the leading lawyers of Turkey inside EU. )As an aside, I don't think there will be any danger of an "autoctonous continental Europe" becoming a geopolitical threat for one simple reason: demographics. The average birth rate in places such as Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria are currently insufficient to repopulate those countries. In the meantime, the rate for minorities (read: Muslims) are much higher. There is a growing fear that France, Germany and even Spain will no longer be what they are 50-60 years from now and that people native to those countries will find themselves disadvantaged and their rights curtailed or forced to flee what was then their nations. You are, I'm sure, familiar with the issues concerning ethnic Turks living in Germany today yes but Turkish population in Germany is downward trend, turks are turning back to Turkey gradually because of work opportunities in Germany, the firms are going to Eastern Europe and to China because of cost opportunies there. Multiply that by X number and you may look at what things might be in 2080 or so. In fact, there looks to be a greater chance of civil strife than a military aggression outwards from within continental Europe.

This is what I think is behind the hesitation of admitting Turkey into the EU. They fear that Turkish entry would be battery ram that pushes all of these over the edge. Whether that scenario would pan out remains to be seen.Because of German and French attitute I am also pessimistic about it!

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 05:01 AM
Your comments about the subject is well thought out.. That is why I am very sceptical about Turkey joining the EU, no matter how hard they try..But at the same time, all this democratization process can not be good for the long term outlook of Turkey and the Middle East...

With Iraq out of the balancing process, a weak Turkey will present even more dangerous situation in a region vital to the world economy for many more years to come..And too much Democracy will proove to be a disaster for Turkey..

I think I might have said this somewhere in this forum once before and that is; Democracy is a concept that must be used by people according to need.. A country can not try to adopt more than it can use.

If that's the idea of EU and US and we are hoping that a Kurdistan will fill the shoes of Turkey in the future, we are saddly mistaken...The Kurds are very tribal people and have been at odds with each other among the two main tribes that are controling the power in Kurdistan.. The Talabani tribe have been at war with the Barzani tribe for years..The only thing that's holding back that power struggle is a common cause. Once that common goal is reached, that is creating a Kurdistan, I am certain that war for power will resume and we will have another country we support with internal problems..

This is what I think about everytime our president comes on and says " he has a new vision for the Middle East"..
Why destroy a pretty stable democratic and secular ally with a muslim majority population , just to create an unstable country with hopes of controling just a small share of the oil in the Middle East

Thank you for your critics and suspicions. Support Turkey on the way of EU membership. the USA government is supporting Turkey. My aim is to introduce Turkey to New Yorkers to the public in USA here. And these were actually my last sayings. USA government is trusting in Turkey. that is why USA has even given nuclear heads to Turkey. In Turkey there are 40 nuclear heads. 30of them are controlled by turkish army and 10 of them are controlled by USA army. Turkey is a democratic land. You can also trust in Turkey. A democratic land with higher education leven in society must be a land to be trusted. and Turkey is such a land and turkey has many other things to be trusted..... Israel has problems with arabs but israel war plane fighters make touristic trips to Turkey with F-16 war planes. Turkish army also make the same thing. F-16 war planes fighters make touristic trips to Israel with full armed war planes.... Turks are actually one of the peace keepers and trusted nation in the world. This is the truth. You can also search the reality of these things yourselves.... BYe Bye to everbody from Europe....

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:18 AM
http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/4075/sonhal17uk.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:23 AM
http://www.travelplaces.co.uk/images/renault_pages/turkey-aerial-taksim-square.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:27 AM
http://www.tweedehuis.com/nl/alanya/images/new/foto_alanyanacht.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:28 AM
http://tyrkiet.se/tyrkietbilleder2/Alanya-General.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:32 AM
http://funix.chez-alice.fr/tourisme/turquie/bodrum.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:34 AM
http://srs.dl.ac.uk/people/pantos/bodrum/bodrum.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:36 AM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41206000/jpg/_41206572_turkey.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:38 AM
http://web.mit.edu/mollieb/Public/Pictures/Senior%20Year/November/dentry%20turkey%20day.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:39 AM
http://www.ifrc.org/COMMON/photos/firstaid03_photos/turkey03.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:41 AM
http://www.citizen.org/trade/images/Photo8.gif

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:43 AM
http://www.agfc.state.ar.us/pix/ark_outdoors_images/20040915_turkey.jpg

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 06:48 AM
Geoge Bush is looking at a Turk in thanksgiving day:) .

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 06:52 AM
Moderator: Is this thread spam?

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 07:05 AM
Actually I did not understand what you mean by asking this question to moderator. I do not know the meaning of "spam". Could you please ask your question in a different way so that I also want to understand what you mean:confused:

milleniumcab
September 19th, 2006, 07:08 AM
I don't think so.. He doesn't seem to be selling a product.. He loves Turkey though...

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 07:09 AM
I don't think so.. He doesn't seem to be selling a product.. He loves Turkey though...
The product is Turkey, and he's selling hard.

Reminds me of some of these threads that convey a whiff of government sponsorship. Cuba and China seem to do this. Such efforts are more common on other forums.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 07:25 AM
ablarc, I understood you now. you are definitely wrong. I do not think that I do something wrong. I tried to introduce you Turkey. Did you know before turkey has such faces! I have two american friends. one from California and one from New York. We met each other in a German language center in Germany. We have still been talking to each other since 3years. From them I understood that the majority of Americans have no idea about Turkey. That is why I opened this topic here. Had it been bad for you!? I sell nothing, I give information and views from Turkey. It does not cost you anything! Of course I love Turkey. Don't you love USA as your country!? This is normal.... I did not hurd anybody here!!!!!!!

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 07:27 AM
I do not know the meaning of "spam".
Advertising or propaganda resulting from business or government sponsorship.

Generally removed from forums unless successfully camouflaged.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 07:41 AM
ablarc, that is not my purpose what you say... god... you are unbelievable!! I also love America... What should I say... Ok. I say god bless America and Turkey. Is this okey now!?

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 07:52 AM
OK. Your message seemed to lockstep with your government's attempts to portray Turkey as a mainstream western country --directed at gaining EU membership. As you know, there's some question about that.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 07:55 AM
I don't think so.. He doesn't seem to be selling a product.. He loves Turkey though...

thank you very much. really... I also love USA very much. That is why I opened this topic here... Think rationally.... If I did not love americans and UsA, would I open this topic here to say my ideas that Turkey needs a support of Americans whom I dislike..... wanting support from the people whom I dislike!!!! Does it make you a sense!!!!! Do you do the same thing... Do you want to get a support from the people you dislike.... You don't... I also don't do it.... Anyway.... Thank you again...

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 08:14 AM
I also love USA very much.... If I did not love americans and UsA, would I open this topic here to say my ideas that Turkey needs a support of Americans whom I dislike..... wanting support from the people whom I dislike!!!! Does it make you a sense!!!!!
Someone disputed this?

Your images are intended to show Turkey in a cool light; fewer exclamation points will help your case. ;) :)

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 08:16 AM
OK. Your message seemed to lockstep with your government's attempts to portray Turkey as a mainstream western country --directed at gaining EU membership. As you know, there's some question about that.

You are right. I hope that this government will be downgraded in the next elections. I do not like this government of Turkey. And 80%of the turkish population thinks the same way... In the core of this government in Turkey, there is powerful and dominant islamic ideas... according to me, This government image has made the Turkey's worldwide image worse than before.... Turkey is trying hard to stay on her modern path that Ataturk has drawn in 1923 Turkish Constitution. Nobody can change the Westernian ideals of Turkey... It is unquestionable in Turkey... but the outside world esp. the Americans do not know it. That is why thinking that Turkey is in islamic danger... No, there is no islamic danger in Turkey. All high courts including constitutional court are following what is going on these days with today's government... Army is following, 80%of the population in Turkey is following and most importantly president of Turkey is following everything.... Every instutition in Turkey has it's own independent constitutional power... Turkey ideologically cannot be turned into a islamic country. I have no worry about it...

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 08:25 AM
there is no islamic danger in Turkey.
There is islamic danger in the United States. September 11 was an example of islamic danger.

There is islamic danger in most places on the planet.The world may eventually become islamic.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 08:43 AM
I know about it. but I do not know what to say. I do really not know what to say!!! I know Islam to some degree. it is also unbelievable that How did Usame bin Laden and others appear on Earth suddenly! (Maderator: sorry to use these words) These mother ****ers (Usame bin Laden and Taliban and other terrorists) are saying that they are doing their terrorist actions for Islam sake... That is unbelievable... Normally what I know is that there is no aggression and racism in Islam. These terrorists and terrorist ideologic lands must be inactivated like every guilty criminals... These are the things I can think about it.... My purpose was not speaking of relegion. but introduction of Turkey.... To some degree I did it... Anyway... bye bye

ablarc
September 19th, 2006, 09:13 AM
musicial, I sympathize with your goal of a westernized Turkey, but I think it's a lost cause. Actually, I think in the long run western civilization is a lost cause.

It's like the Roman Empire: we'll be broght down by a combination of external forces that think western civilization is a bad idea, internal inertia and indecision, plus immigration.

Maybe it's time.

The precise coup de grace will be imperceptible and the subject of scholarly debate after a few centuries.

lofter1
September 19th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Actually, I think in the long run western civilization is a lost cause.

Do you know the time frame for this?

I'm trying to figure out some travel + investment plans ...

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 10:10 AM
musicial, I sympathize with your goal of a westernized Turkey, but I think it's a lost cause. Actually, I think in the long run western civilization is a lost cause.



It's like the Roman Empire: we'll be broght down by a combination of external forces that think western civilization is a bad idea, internal inertia and indecision, plus immigration.

Maybe it's time.

The precise coup de grace will be imperceptible and the subject of scholarly debate after a few centuries.

god! you are very pessimistic. I hear from televisions that americans feel badly because of the taliban terror.... but I did not assume the situation as you feel in this writing.... America survives forever but americans should not loose their rationality. Your ancestors did not build America easily, it was hard. I know the history of USA. You (americans as a whole) need to tight with their values (democracy, freedom, tolerance, respect to other cultures, understanding capacity of others etc. etc.) strictly then USA exists forever.
Think that these terrorists are bacteries on Earth, splitted very much and grew in numbers in the last years and that is why they are effective. I am sure that USA with it's allies (including Turkey) will destroy the terrorists soon.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Do you know the time frame for this?

I'm trying to figure out some travel + investment plans ...

nothing bad takes place to USA. My first job is that I am going to buy an apartment in New york:) but not co-op , I prefer physical ownership ;)

milleniumcab
September 19th, 2006, 12:15 PM
I, for one, do not have a problem with this thread as far as it being a spam of anykind..Musical did agree with some of the negatives I mentioned about Turkey and her efforts in order to get into the EU..

If he was a spammer, I don't think he would agree to some of my negative views, earlier..

milleniumcab
September 19th, 2006, 12:20 PM
Do you know the time frame for this?

I'm trying to figure out some travel + investment plans ...

LMAO, that was funny lofter1..

milleniumcab
September 19th, 2006, 12:26 PM
http://www.citizen.org/trade/images/Photo8.gif

Most of these pictures are of people with obvious western values. I don't think they represent the Turks from all over Turkey..

pianoman11686
September 19th, 2006, 12:38 PM
Muslims Seek Detailed Apology From Pope

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: September 19, 2006

Filed at 11:53 a.m. ET

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Muslims in Turkey, Iraq and the Palestinian territories demanded Tuesday that Pope Benedict XVI make a clear apology for his remarks on Islam, but the Malaysian prime minister said he accepted the pontiff's statement of regret.

In the Vatican, the pope also issued a statement appealing for mutual respect for religious beliefs as he mourned an Italian nun slain in Somalia in an attack possibly linked to the uproar over his recent remarks.

While denouncing violence, the pope said he hopes the killing ''becomes the seed of hope to construct authentic brotherhood among peoples in the mutual respect for the religious convictions of each other,'' according to a condolence telegram released by the Vatican.

Sister Leonella, 65, who taught and worked at a pediatrics hospital in Mogadishu, was shot dead by gunmen as she left the Austrian-run S.O.S. hospital on Sunday. There was no claim of responsibility, but many speculated the shooting was linked to Muslim anger toward Benedict.

In a speech last week, the pontiff cited a Medieval text that characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as ''evil and inhuman,'' particularly ''his command to spread by the sword the faith.''

Benedict said Sunday that he was ''deeply sorry'' that Muslims took offense, and stressed that the emperor's words did not reflect his own opinion.

Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said Benedict's expression of regret was acceptable. Malaysia -- which chairs the world's largest Muslim bloc, the Organization of the Islamic Conference -- had demanded the pope offer a full apology and retract what he said.

''I think we can accept it and we hope there are no more statements that can anger the Muslims,'' Abdullah told Malaysian journalists late Monday in New York, where he is attending the U.N. General Assembly.

His comments came after he met with President Bush, who told the Malaysian leader he believed that Benedict was sincere in apologizing.

In Turkey, however, protesters said Benedict must make full amends before a planned November trip that would be his papacy's first visit to a Muslim nation. ''Either apologize, or do not come,'' read a banner carried by a group of demonstrators from a religious workers' union.

Iraq's parliament also rejected Benedict's explanation of his remarks, saying it was insufficiently clear. The parliament ''demands the pope take practical steps to restore respect to the Islamic world and its religion, and a clear-cut apology for what he said,'' lawmakers said in a statement read at a press conference.

The top Muslim clergyman in the Palestinian territories similarly demanded that Benedict offer a ''clear apology.'' The mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammed Hussein, urged Palestinians to halt attacks on churches in the territories, but held the pontiff responsible for the outpouring of anger.

''So far, we consider the apology of the Vatican Pope insufficient,'' Hussein told reporters. ''We firmly ask the Vatican Pope to offer a personal, public and clear apology to the 1.5 billion Muslims in this world.''

A previously unknown Islamic group calling itself ''The Army of Guidance'' pledged Tuesday to strike at Christian targets in the Gaza Strip in retaliation for the remarks.

''Every place relevant to Christians will be a target,'' said a statement from the group. ''This will be until the accursed infidel, the Vatican, apologizes to Muslims.''

Palestinian Interior Ministry spokesman Khaled Abu Hilal said security forces had been ordered to protect Christian sites after seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza in the last few days. However, he played down the threat.

''This is a new name and an unknown group,'' he said. ''I think this is empty talk.''

Damage was minor in the earlier attacks and no one was hurt, but it unsettled the small Christian minority, which accounts for about 2 percent of the 3.4 million Palestinians.

In Ankara, protesters demanded Tuesday that the Justice Ministry arrest the pope upon his arrival in Turkey on charges of insulting Islam and causing hatred based on religious differences, local media reported.

Ilnur Cevik, editor-in-chief of The New Anatolian newspaper, said in a commentary that the pope must reach out to Muslims before visiting.

''How can the pope make amends and convince the masses with religious sensitivities in Turkey that he is not an enemy of Islam and that he wants to forge an atmosphere of coexistence?'' Cevik wrote. ''If he fails to do this, it will be very hard for the Turkish people to give him a warm welcome.''

In Turkey, the pope's remarks strengthened the widespread view that he is hostile to the country's campaign for membership in the European Union.

Before becoming pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger questioned whether the EU should open its doors to Turkey, saying it might be incompatible with European culture.

Secular Turkey's government accused the pope after his latest remarks of trying to revive the spirit of the Crusades, and called on him to offer a sincere and personal apology.

Catholic bishops met in Istanbul on Monday and decided the pope's visit to Turkey in November should go ahead, said Monsignor Georges Marovitch, the Vatican Embassy spokesman in Turkey. The pope was invited by President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, a staunchly secular leader.

Benedict is scheduled to visit Turkey from Nov. 28 to Dec. 1, where a focus of his visit will be meeting with the Istanbul-based leader of the world's Orthodox Christians, Bartholomew I.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

pianoman11686
September 19th, 2006, 12:49 PM
''I think we can accept it and we hope there are no more statements that can anger the Muslims,'' Abdullah told Malaysian journalists...

''Every place relevant to Christians will be a target,'' said a statement from the group. ''This will be until the accursed infidel, the Vatican, apologizes to Muslims.''

...

In Ankara, protesters demanded Tuesday that the Justice Ministry arrest the pope upon his arrival in Turkey on charges of insulting Islam and causing hatred based on religious differences, local media reported.

''How can the pope make amends and convince the masses with religious sensitivities in Turkey that he is not an enemy of Islam and that he wants to forge an atmosphere of coexistence?'' Cevik wrote. ''If he fails to do this, it will be very hard for the Turkish people to give him a warm welcome.''

Some of these statements are completely off kilter. How can someone claim to speak for an entire religion, and moreover threaten to attack every place "relevant" to Christians in response to this? I bet these were the same people accusing Israel of disproportionate force. Hypocrites.

Oh, and why exactly should the pope convince "the masses" that he's not enemy, when Islamic extremists have been calling for his head for as long as I can remember? Pope John Paul 2 was almost killed by a Turkish gunman 25 years ago. What was the cause then? Oh, I think I know what it is: all Christians are enemies, in the view of fundamentalists at least. These radicals really need to shut up about every little offense that they could take, or at the very least, stop trying to define the overall psyche of the entire Muslim World.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 12:59 PM
Most of these pictures are of people with obvious western values. I don't think they represent the Turks from all over Turkey..

you are right again. these people in pictures represent app. 90% of the population(this portion must be big enough). but especially in small cities in Anatolia there are traditionally dressing people. This traditional dressing is something like the people who are dressing in Bier festival in Bayern( Germany). I mean not the same dressing but something other that belongs to turkish dressing. Plus there are people (may be 2%of the population!?) in big cities, who are dressing and looking like taliban terrorists. Their clothes are green colour and they have unbelievable discussing beard, long and horrible. The number of these people in the last years have been increasing and unfortunately today's government in Turkey tolerates (under the name of democracy) these people. However turkish law says that such islamic clothing is forbidden and is illegal in Turkey but AKP government tolerates this situation. These islamic dressing people make sometimes demonstrations against Israel and USA in front of big mosques left us from our ancestors (the ottomans as history and monuments). These terrorist like seeming people organize the innocent, naive or pure people who come to the mosque for Friday pray to clear their soul. As a Turk I find it that it is really a shame for modern Turkey.... but what can I do!? Today's government in Turkey tolerates this situation. Because of the democratic elections in Turkey the only managing power in Turkey is government but government tolerates.... As a contributer in this forum I say that personally I am sorry and I am shaming of there are still islamic dressing people (uncivilized people) in Turkey.

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 01:31 PM
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Muslims in Turkey, Iraq and the Palestinian territories demanded Tuesday that Pope Benedict XVI make a clear apology for his remarks on Islam, but the Malaysian prime minister said he accepted the pontiff's statement of regret.

In Turkey, however, protesters said Benedict must make full amends before a planned November trip that would be his papacy's first visit to a Muslim nation. ''Either apologize, or do not come,'' read a banner carried by a group of demonstrators from a religious workers' union.

In Ankara, protesters demanded Tuesday that the Justice Ministry arrest the pope upon his arrival in Turkey on charges of insulting Islam and causing hatred based on religious differences, local media reported.

Ilnur Cevik, editor-in-chief of The New Anatolian newspaper, said in a commentary that the pope must reach out to Muslims before visiting.

''How can the pope make amends and convince the masses with religious sensitivities in Turkey that he is not an enemy of Islam and that he wants to forge an atmosphere of coexistence?'' Cevik wrote. ''If he fails to do this, it will be very hard for the Turkish people to give him a warm welcome.''

In Turkey, the pope's remarks strengthened the widespread view that he is hostile to the country's campaign for membership in the European Union.

Before becoming pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger questioned whether the EU should open its doors to Turkey, saying it might be incompatible with European culture.

Secular Turkey's government accused the pope after his latest remarks of trying to revive the spirit of the Crusades, and called on him to offer a sincere and personal apology.

Catholic bishops met in Istanbul on Monday and decided the pope's visit to Turkey in November should go ahead, said Monsignor Georges Marovitch, the Vatican Embassy spokesman in Turkey. The pope was invited by President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, a staunchly secular leader.

Benedict is scheduled to visit Turkey from Nov. 28 to Dec. 1, where a focus of his visit will be meeting with the Istanbul-based leader of the world's Orthodox Christians, Bartholomew I.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

Forget about what the government in Turkey says against the Pope althouhg pope has actually was not right about what he said. Today's turkey government is baised. And There is radical islam in the core of these government, constituted from AKP party. Although this government tries to change some basics of Turkey deeply and silently, it cannot find a way to do it because of the other constitutional powers of Turkey and because of the 80%percent of the secular population. Do not forget that there are big islamic influences from Iran to Turkey. Iran wants may be to export it's islamic regime to Turkey. That is why some idiots in Turkey are saying what Iran is saying.

The top islamic authority in Turkey criticised the Pope in the way that Galileo Galilei was arrested by the Vatikan Church and was put 11 years in the Alkadras like prison in Europe because Galilei said that the the Earth is turning around. And this idea was against the Vatikan Church belief. Now another Pope from Vatikan is saying that Islam is against the ration and Islam's prophet has done everything with his sword. this islamic authority said that what the Pope has said is not acceptable and nonsense.

Pope visit to Turkey has no problem from the State view, pope is welcome to Turkey, says the officials in Turkey.

milleniumcab
September 19th, 2006, 01:36 PM
These radicals really need to shut up about every little offense that they could take, or at the very least, stop trying to define the overall psyche of the entire Muslim World.

As long as we don't buy their definition of the overall psyche of the entire muslim population, they can rant all they want, as far as I'm concerned..;)

musicial
September 19th, 2006, 02:12 PM
As long as we don't buy their definition of the overall psyche of the entire muslim population, they can rant all they want, as far as I'm concerned..;)

Think that we are in a court. Somebody arrested and brouhgt to this court. The judge asks to this person: why did you kill your neighbour? This person says that I could not bear him and one day I killed him, I dont have any other reasons, he says.... In this case what else can the jugde think about, the judge does not need to search for another reason for why the arrested person killed his neighbour.... The arrested person is dangereous and abnormal. That is all, thinks the judge....

The terrorists are making their terrorist actions and are saying that they do it for Islam sake. All the westernian nations believe to this explanation and accuse the entire muslims and are saying that the muslims are terrorists. As a muslim for example how can one defend himself because of these mother ****er terrorists who are saying nothing else but who are always saying that they are doing their actions for God sake(for Islam)... However, there is no aggression in Islam. All the westernian nations believe automatically in what they hear from terrorists... What the terrorists say is wrong and political. according to me they are trying to get support from islamic lands' population for their crimes... And nearly all the islamic lands' populations (Except for Turkey) are still underdeveloped, primitive, undereducated etc. etc. and that is why they are ready to give support to terrorists because they hear the name of allah from these terrorists... For them, hearing the name of Allah even from terrorists is enough to give support....

GUYS, PLEASE WE DO NOT WRITE ABOUT RELEGION HERE. I do not want to talk about relegion. this is a dangerous theme, need to be sometimes fine tuned and we would not be able to express our ideas as we want or somebody may understand us in the way that we did not intent to say...and we could misunderstand each other.

Transic
September 19th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Then how about an archeological question for a change? :)

So what location is where the ruins of what was once Troy are? I thought that it's near Izmir.

milleniumcab
September 20th, 2006, 01:27 AM
Then how about an archeological question for a change? :)

So what location is where the ruins of what was once Troy are? I thought that it's near Izmir.

I gogled it, it is located North of Izmir, near the Dardanels or Canakkale in Turkey..

musicial
September 20th, 2006, 03:28 AM
Then how about an archeological question for a change? :)

So what location is where the ruins of what was once Troy are? I thought that it's near Izmir.

http://www.silkroadhotels.com/turkey.jpg

Troy is a city name in the upper-west side of Turkey, on the Aegean Sea. Look at the map.

musicial
September 20th, 2006, 03:29 AM
http://www.math.umn.edu/~alayont/turkiye/marmara/truva.jpg

musicial
September 20th, 2006, 03:41 AM
in Troy there happened a biggest war the history has ever seen in the first world war! A photo explaining the soul of that times (1915-1918)The translation of the words on the photo:

All the soldiers(turkish) were suddenly begging (or pleading) to the God,
all were saying what they really have inside them;
all the enemies were getting crazy with their griefs and sorrow
... and all the soldiers(turkish) were sure about the victory from tomorrow.
http://www.ktuvakfi.org.tr/images/canakkale.jpg

musicial
September 20th, 2006, 03:43 AM
http://twoday.tuwien.ac.at/static/dilek/images/canakkale.jpg

musicial
September 20th, 2006, 04:00 AM
Somebody is trying to enter to this forum with my nickname... because somebody has given my code 5 times. I have seen the warning that I have tried 5 times with a wrong code. The problem is that I did not do it... Either ban my nickname (I have actually given enogh information about Turkey) or please find a solution(you can also lock this topic, if you prefer)... Thank you...

milleniumcab
September 20th, 2006, 09:48 PM
If they don't know your password, I don't think you have anything to worry about....

musicial
September 21st, 2006, 04:23 AM
If they don't know your password, I don't think you have anything to worry about....

no, nobody knows it, everyhing is allright, I think.

musicial
September 21st, 2006, 04:25 AM
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/92006/m54657.jpg

Cindy Crawford to advertise Turkish leather in the United States

Thursday, September 21, 2006

AYTEN GÜVENKAYA
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/admimg/blackdot.gif
ISTANBUL



The Turkish Leather Publicity Group (DTG) has struck a deal with world famous former top model Cindy Crawford to join its publicity campaign for its new target market: the United States.
DTG is involved in a publicity campaign to identify leatherwear with Turkey, similar to how Italy is identified with pizzas or Switzerland with chocolate. At the end of October, billboards on major New York streets will have Cindy Crawford ads wearing Turkish leather goods.
Shooting will begin in Los Angeles next week. Chief executive officer of İnci Deri, Ali Murat Kızıltaş and Derimod executive Sedef Orman will be present at the set as representatives of the Turkish leather sector. The leather outfits and accessories that Cindy Crawford will wear are provided by such firms as Orjin, Matras, Inci, Derimod, Levinson and Vizon.
Head of DTG and the Union of Istanbul Leather and Leather Products Exporters, Lemi Tolunay said the campaign aims to help reflect an image of the concept of “Turkish leather” to the American consumer.
Cindy Crawford was the first person to introduce the concept of “top model” to the fashion world, Tolunay said. She was selected because she is an icon in the United States.
DTG had used famous names in its domestic campaign last year such as Ishak Alaton, Cem Boyner, Güler Sabancı, State Minister Kürşad Tüzmen, Kenan Doğulu, Burhan Öçal, Hıncal Uluç and Ayşe Arman.
Tolunay said they are expecting the first positive feedback from the campaign at the Turkish Leather Products Fair in New York on Jan. 9-11, 2007.
Box box box

Facts about Turkish leather sector:
-- $1 billion exports in 2005
-- About 350,000 employed in the sector
-- EU countries and Russia top the list of importing countries -- Leather shoe and bag trade volume in the world is $225 billion. Turkey's share is below 1 percent.

-------------------------------------
news from www.tdn.com.tr

musicial
September 22nd, 2006, 07:28 AM
Turkey confirms that an abducted Turkish citizen had been killed by the Taliban Islamic militia in Afghanistan, calling on the Afghan authorities to punish those responsible. (source: www.tdn.com.tr (http://www.tdn.com.tr) )

musicial
September 22nd, 2006, 07:30 AM
Al-Qadi close to regaining frozen assets in Turkey

Friday, September 22, 2006

ANKARA - TDN with AP



The Justice and Development Party (AKP) government has dropped its appeals against a court decision that freed the frozen assets of a suspected al-Qaeda financier, the Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.
The previous government in Turkey had ordered the assets of Saudi businessman Yasin al-Qadi frozen after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, saying that he was suspected of channeling money to terrorist organizations. The European Union and United States have also frozen his assets.
An administrative court overturned the order in July on technical grounds and ordered that the assets be returned, after a challenge made by al-Qadi with support voiced by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.
Erdoğan's office and the Foreign Ministry gave no reason behind the appeals to block the court order and keep the assets frozen, made in September, but confirmed on Thursday that the appeals had been withdrawn.
“I know Mr. Yasin, and I believe in him as I believe in myself,” Erdoğan told NTV on July 11. “It is not possible for Mr. Yasin to establish ties with a terrorist organization and support it. ... He is a person who has no specialty other than being a philanthropist,” he added.
U.S. Treasury officials allege that the Saudi-based Muwafaq Foundation, which al-Qadi heads, is an al-Qaeda front used to funnel millions of dollars to the global terror organization.
Deniz Baykal, leader of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), accused Erdoğan's government of blocking an investigation into al-Qadi's financial affairs focusing on reported money transfers by Erdoğan's adviser Cüneyd Zapsu to al-Qadi in the 1990s when the two were business partners. CHP deputy Atilla Kart filed a parliamentary question on Thursday, asking Interior Minister Abdülkadır Aksu why Erdoğan was protecting al-Qadi.
The previous Turkish government had issued a Cabinet decree to freeze the assets of al-Qadi and another suspected al-Qaeda financier in December 2001, in line with a U.N. Security Council Resolution relating to those suspected of funding terrorist organizations. At the time, Finance Ministry inspectors also began to investigate al-Qadi's ties in Turkey but later claimed in a report that Erdoğan's government tried to block the probe.

ablarc
September 22nd, 2006, 08:16 AM
So what's the scoop? Is Erdogan's government soft on Al-Qaida?

musicial
September 22nd, 2006, 09:29 AM
So what's the scoop? Is Erdogan's government soft on Al-Qaida?

actually I cannot say what the scoop is because I do not know. Erdogan's government cannot be soft on al-Qaida that is a terrorist organization as everbody knows. if the government tolerates or be soft on al-Qaida, it means that the government kills suicide in front of the public, because the government tolerates the relegious problems enough in Turkey (Sometimes you see a smoke coming from somewhere but you cannot see the fire, that is such a game played by today's turkish government against Turkish public) . but al-Qadi is somenone who is thought to finance al-Qaida terrorist organization via Saudi-based Muwafaq Foundation, that is said by US Treasury officials. The problem in Turkey is that neither Turkish government can reach an evidence and can give it to the court in Turkey nor US Treasury officials extend a proof to turkish colleques. And the problem with this man namely "al-Qadi" stays as a dilemma. And the court in Turkey is in trouble with not resolving the frozen assets of this man namely "al-Qadi." At the end, government needed to obey the court's decesion.... That is the story.

Related to this problem, there was/is another debate still going on in Turkey: leader of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), Deniz Baykal, accuse the government leader, Erdogan, of knowing al-Qadi, and having relationship with this man. Baykal says and asks to Erdogan: explain to the public what kind of relationship it is!? Baykal implies that he knows everthing. That is the story I know. The public in Turkey is very much suspicious of today's Turkish government leader (namely Erdogan) that Erdogan had not had (may be have not had) a contact or relationship with this suspicios man namely al-Qadi......

musicial
September 22nd, 2006, 05:20 PM
do you know that cnn is also making broadcasting in Turkish language with it's Turkish partners!?. and cnn has also a web side in Turkish language namely www.cnnturk.com (http://www.cnnturk.com) !?.

musicial
September 23rd, 2006, 05:07 AM
do you know that cnn is also making broadcasting in Turkish language with it's Turkish partners!?. and cnn has also a web side in Turkish language namely www.cnnturk.com (http://www.cnnturk.com) !?.

another internally broadcasting channel is NTV, broadcasting only news. It's web side is http://www.ntvmsnbc.com

musicial
September 23rd, 2006, 05:11 AM
one another is CNBC-e broadcasting only in Turkey. It's web side is http://www.cnbce.com It's broadcasting only news from business, politics and financial news from all over the world. Evenings there are mostly american movies and films broadcasted.

musicial
September 23rd, 2006, 05:20 AM
there are two other news channel in Turkey, namely haberturk (http://www.haberturk.com) and SKYturk (http://www.skyturk.tv). There are over 200(?) different television channels and over 5000(?) radio channels in Turkey.

That means that Turkey has more independent media voices than most of the today's European countries.

lofter1
September 23rd, 2006, 10:52 AM
Hello Musicial ...

What are the most popular non-News programs on Turkish television?

musicial
September 23rd, 2006, 01:23 PM
Hello Musicial ...

What are the most popular non-News programs on Turkish television?


series and sport-programs and the movies are the leadings. the fallowings are the examples of some channels broadcasting heavily in this category: http://www.kanald.com.tr , http://www.showtvnet.com/ In internet I see that heaven street, survivor and armegeddon are on show tv this evening for example.

Is there any american channel broadcasting in Internet on broadband in USA? If so, can you give me the internet addresses? I am only seeing CNN int. (as an American channel) via satellite receiver. I am also wondering what types of programmes are there in USA.

lofter1
September 23rd, 2006, 02:09 PM
Try these (and the links you find there) --

A mix of the big US TV Networks, Public Broadcasting, Cable Networks and some new options :

http://www.cbs.com/innertube/

http://www.nbc.com/NBC_First_Look/

http://abc.go.com/

http://www.pbs.org/digitaltv/

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/

http://www.mtv.com/partners/broadband/featured_videos.jhtml

http://www.mtv.com/overdrive/#/overdrive/

http://www.dotcomedy.com/cs/Satellite

http://www.bravotv.com/

http://www.gotuit.com/

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/senioryear/radio/tv_high.html?stories_6_unity_hi

http://www.mobitv.com/attoffer/?gclid=COeZhPyrxIcCFQJuGgod_js0KQ

musicial
September 24th, 2006, 06:51 PM
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/92006/m54916.jpg

The spiritual path to money, politics and worldly power

Sunday, September 24, 2006


Once the ecclesiastic venue of spiritual quests for endless inner peace and finding God under the guidance of wise sheiks, religious orders -- or tarikats -- and their cloisters in Turkey have turned into expanding centers of power and money

GÖKSEL Bozkurt - BARIŞ Altıntaş
ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



The political influence of religious orders in Turkey has come into the spotlight following the murder of an imam at İsmailağa Mosque. A district where residents acted, dressed and looked like they were in a Taliban controlled town was revealed after the killing and the lynching of the assailant at the hands of the worshippers. Not a single store sold alcohol in the neighborhood; it was impossible to spot a woman who did not cover her head; all the men and even boys were dressed in long green Islamic robes. No agency advertised homes in this area, where newcomers were selectively found by the residents.
The initial police investigation and media reports showed that the mysterious community was made up of the members of an influential leader of the İsmailağa Community, a powerful branch of an extensive religious order. The murder seemed to be the result of conflicting interests within the community, which had grown to be one of the most powerful and wealthiest religious societies in Istanbul. Once the ecclesiastic venue of spiritual quests for endless inner peace and finding God under the guidance of wise sheiks, religious orders -- or tarikats -- and their cloisters in Turkey have turned into expanding centers of power and money. Their growing wealth and influence are a concern for those viewing the orders as a practice ground for a theocratic state, while some conservatives maintain that religious orders offer the protection and relief migrants seek in the confusing and hectic urban life of modern times

(Source: www.tdn.com.tr (http://www.tdn.com.tr))

ablarc
September 24th, 2006, 08:38 PM
^ Turkey in Europe: The Trojan Horse.

milleniumcab
September 24th, 2006, 09:46 PM
^ Turkey in Europe: The Trojan Horse.

I see your point ablarc...But I think Europe is better off with current Turkey in the Union then a radicalized Turkey as a neighbor...

ablarc
September 24th, 2006, 10:00 PM
I see your point ablarc...But I think Europe is better off with current Turkey in the Union then a radicalized Turkey as a neighbor...
I think not. The next step is a radicalized Turkey in the Union. You can tell me what's after that...

milleniumcab
September 24th, 2006, 11:05 PM
I think not. The next step is a radicalized Turkey in the Union. You can tell me what's after that...

Radicalized Turkey can not and will not be in the UNION...By radicalizing, Turkey will not be able make the necessary democratic reforms she needs to join..

Her only chance to join the Union is to realize the current government's path is the path to disaster...And I hope Turks are wise enough to see that reality and put a stop to it in the next elections...

I also think trying to democratize Turkey fully before accepting her to the Union is not the right way go...

ablarc
September 24th, 2006, 11:08 PM
Radicalized Turkey can not and will not be in the UNION...By radicalizing, Turkey will not be able make necessary democratic reforms she needs to join..
The radicalization comes after membership.

milleniumcab
September 24th, 2006, 11:27 PM
The radicalization comes after membership.

It will be much easier for Turkey to deal with the radical element after joining, not before..

musicial
September 25th, 2006, 05:04 AM
guys, I am giving UNfaired (I meant unbiased) information to introduce you Turkey. I am not only talking about the positives of Turkey but also about the negatives of Turkey.

As for the people you see in the last picture, I say that such kinds of people exist in Turkey and the number of them have been increasing since the beginnings of year 2000 but they are in minority (app. 2%of the population) and unfortunately today's government tolerates them for democracy sake. Or the concept of democracy is something to comuflage them for the AKP party.

the founder of Turkey, Atatürk, has not put steel to the Turkey's base but he has made Turkey's base from steel in the sense that Turkey cannot one day be converted into an Islamic State. And Ataturk has given a constitutional right to the turkish Army to control the State that there do not flourish radical Islam one day. Everthing must be under control. I do not worry about it. And today all the other constitutional powers (except for today's government) in Turkey are on the alert for radical Islam.

I want to talk about one other problem related to this theme now. Unfortunately EU is exploiting the turkish Army's role in Turkey's democracy. EU says that in a democracy, army takes the order from civil government in every case. but turkish army takes no order from anybody in some cases. turkish army moves suddenly in two cases without any order: 1) in a case of a foreign and unexpected attack to Turkey and 2) in a case of every kind of terror coming from home. Not only army but also 80% of the population, and all other constitutional powers in Turkey take these people in the last picture as potential relegious terrorists. And army thinks that these radical islamic seeming people are a potential danger. Because of the EU's discussions against turkish army EU is loosing blood on the eyes of turkish public. Acc. to statistics turkish public was favouring EU with 75% one year ago. but now it fovors the Union with less than 50%. thinking the discussions of EU against turkish army, turkish public thinks that EU officials are playing a game with Turkey. And the idiots in EU have not still understood this aspect.

EU membership for Turkey may according to me be a tool to fine tune radical Islamic ideas easily. Ok. from this aspect EU lands may be do not have any benefit from Turkey but the other side is also true. Wenn turkey sneezes relegiously, EU gets cold.

guys, Support Turkey for EU membership. Thank you.

musicial
September 25th, 2006, 05:48 AM
EU criticises these days the turkish army's role in turkish democracy very much. but they do not understand the vital role of the army for a stabilized Turkey. What would happen if the army takes the order to follow the increasing trend of radical Islam in Turkey from today's turkish government. AKP tolerates this trend in Turkey. What would the government order to the army. simply nothing, it would say everything is allright, don't worry, be happy, do not war but love each other:) .

if USA did not trust in turkish army's mentality, USA would not give the 30 nuclear heads to turkish army's control. The only nuclear powers in the region are Israel and Turkey. but EU criticises the turkish army's role in Turkey very much. According to me, turkish army's balance, sometimes fine tuning or giving impulses to some governments in Turkey (like AKP party) is vital in Turkey. because Turkey's 99% of population believes in Islam and Turkey is living in a geograhpy mostly covered by Islamic lands, evertime radical Islamic influences upon Turkey are possible from Iran, Syria, Iraq etc. etc. On other themes in Turkey, army speaks never. I have never heard about it. Army is only sometimes speaking and reporting about increasing trends of radical Islam and PKK terror. The other themes are skin off the army's nose in Turkey.

musicial
September 25th, 2006, 06:49 AM
A new enterprise for Turkish soldiers in Hakkari: trash clean-up

Hürriyet İnternet

The southeastern city of Hakkari was yesterday the site of a unusual demonstration by the Turkish military's Mountain and Commando Brigade: a trash cleanp--up.


A group of 500 or so brigade members, joined by their spouses and children, marched through Hakkari carrying trash bags and picking up garbage from the streets and sidewalks. Walking with megaphones, the soldiers in civilian clothing called on Hakkari citizens to join in their efforts to help clean up the city. Posters carried by the group underscored the tension between the Mountain and Commando Brigade and the local largely Kurdish government: some of the words read "Municipality, don't be divisive, but do your job." Other banners challenged the local government directly:
"Municipality, we are here; where are you?"
The group of soldiers from the brigade was led by General Azmi Utku Cinek, the top general in command in Hakkari. The trash clean-up effort wound its way through Hakkari streets, ending finally in front of the main municipality building in downtown Hakkari, from whence the group dispersed.

Source:http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/ This is a newspaper's web side in Turkey. The name of the paper is "Hürriyet"(=freedom). This paper is published internationally like The New York Times or the Washington Post of America.

musicial
September 26th, 2006, 05:21 AM
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/92006/m55098.jpg

Başbuğ says Islamist threat serious, hits back at EU

Tuesday, September 26, 2006

The land forces commander says the reactionary threat has reached alarming levels, points to the growing power of religious communities in the economy and in politics. He also rebuts EU criticism and defends the military’s right to a voice

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



Turkey is facing a serious threat from religious orders and an Islamist presence that is growing in power in many different walks of life, with both posing a danger to the achievements of Atatürk's revolution, which created a secular Turkey, Land Forces Commander Gen. İlker Başbuğ said.
Hitting back at criticism from top European Union envoy Hansjoerg Kretschmer, that the military was accustomed to expressing views on almost all issues, Başbuğ said the armed forces had the right to speak up when it comes to defending secularism and nationalism. “The Turkish Armed Forces has always taken sides and will continue to take sides in protecting the nation state, the unitary state and the secular state,” he said at a ceremony at military academy in Ankara.
“I want to state with sadness that the [Islamic] reactionary threat, even if some circles do not want to accept it, has reached worrying levels,” Başbuğ said, adding, “There are intentional, patient and systematic attempts to erode the [accomplishments of] the revolution.” He warned that “turning religion into an ideology will politicize it and religion will then be the biggest loser.” Başbuğ's accusations appeared to be aimed at the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), which has its roots in political Islam. The government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan denies pursuing an Islamist agenda and the AKP calls itself a conservative democratic party. In response, Faruk Çelik, a senior lawmaker from the AKP, said it was up to the government to tackle any Islamist threat: “If there is backsliding in Turkey, if there is a [religious] reaction, I want everybody to know that the government of the Turkish Republic is the leading force to counter it.”

musicial
September 26th, 2006, 05:24 AM
General Basbug: Religious sects threaten Turkey's secularity

Hürriyet İnternet

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2215458.jpgSpeaking at the opening of lessons at Turkey's Land Forces Military Academy, top General of the Turkish Land Forces, Ilker Basbug, noted that the military would "continue to be on the side of protecting the secularity of the state" in Turkey. General Basbug directed many of his comments at different religious sects and groups across the country, which he maintained had become the focal point of activity against Turkey's secular structure.


Said Basbug yesterday "The reactionary threat, even though it may not be accepted by some circles, has reached worrisome proportions." General Basbug gave the first lesson to military academy students yesterday at the start of the 2006-2007 year, teaching them on the topic of "Ataturk and the Turkish Revolution."

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Dutch parties’ move upsets Turkey

Friday, September 29, 2006

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



The Foreign Ministry has expressed disappointment that the killings of Armenians in the latter years of the Ottoman Empire nearly a century ago unexpectedly cropped up as a leading issue in the Dutch elections.
The two largest Dutch political parties recently removed the names of ethnic Turkish parliamentary candidates from a candidate list after they refused to acknowledge that the killings of Armenians during World War I amounted to genocide, despite the fact that whether or not the issue could correctly be termed “genocide” remains a matter of academic and political debate. Foreign Ministry spokesman Namık Tan described the incident as an example of a “development in contrast with the priority of freedom of expression that is highlighted at every occasion in the European Union.”

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 04:51 AM
Pentagon apologizes for "Kurdistan" map incident in Rome



The US Department of Defense at the Pentagon has apologized to Turkey for an incident in which an American lieutenant colonel used a map showing 18 different cities in Turkey inside an area labeled "Kurdistan" during a seminar at the Rome-based NATO Defense College.

The incident took place September 15, and was followed this week by an apology via phone from the General Peter Pace of the US Armed Forces to the Turkish Chief of Staff, General Yasar Buyukanit. During the phone call, General Pace reportedly assured General Buyukanit that the map had no connection to the US. Pace's assurances however have now led to questions about who had prepared a map that showed a carved-up Turkey, and whether there might be other such maps in circulation. Turkey has in the meantime begun an operation to ensure that no other such maps are in use in NATO workings, and has started to send representatives to every meeting and seminar within NATO at which maps might be used.

Friday, September 29, 2006 11:47
source: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5170863.asp?gid=74

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:02 AM
US screenwriter adapts Turkish play to cinema

Friday, September 29, 2006

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



A play named “Çıkmaz Sokak” (Blind Alley) by Turkish playwright Tuncer Cücenoğlu will be adapted for the cinema based on a screenplay by American screenwriter/theater director Michael J. Joyce.
“Çıkmaz Sokak,” previously translated into seven languages and staged in 12 countries, has brought Cücenoğlu the Abdi İpekçi and Avni Dilligil playwright awards in addition to an award from the Netherlands.
The Turkish-Greek co-production will be directed by Tunca Yönder, who told the Anatolia news agency that he made a deal with Greek producers during the Eurasia Film Market, held in parallel with the 43rd Golden Orange and 2nd Eurasia International film festivals in Antalya earlier this month.
Yönder said they expected the film, likely to be completed in February 2007, to draw huge interest from moviegoers abroad.
Joyce, who previously translated and staged Cücenoğlu's plays "Çıkmaz Sokak" and "Matruşka" (Matruskha) as well as famous Turkish poet and playwright Nazım Hikmet's "Kuvayi Milliye" (National Forces) in the United States, said he followed Turkish theater closely and that the plays had attracted a great deal of interest.
“The way the story is told in Turkish cinema is quite different from Europe and the United States, which creates the main difficulty for Turkish entry into the Western movie sector. The screenplays in Turkish cinema are written in a way that only Turkish moviegoers can understand,” he said.
Joyce said he collaborated with documentary producer Thomas H. Blair in writing the screenplay and that such collaborations were essential for Turkish cinema to be known abroad. “Çıkmaz Sokak,” also due for release as a book in France in January, depicts the interrogation of a torturer policeman by a woman whom he tortured during a suppressive regime.

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:03 AM
Another Turk to head Coca-Cola

Thursday, September 28, 2006

Coca-Cola Enterprises Inc. names Esat Sezer senior VP


ATLANTA/ANKARA - Turkish Daily News


Coca-Cola Enterprises announced that Esat Sezer of Turkey has been named senior vice president and chief information officer.
Sezer, 44, will oversee the company's technology and information capabilities and will report to John F. Brock, president and chief executive officer. The Coca-Cola Company had earlier appointed another Turk, Muhtar Kent, as president of Coca-Cola International and executive vice president of The Coca-Cola Company.

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:13 AM
Genocide expulsion



http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2226637.jpgIt would appear that official recognition of Armenian genocide claims is a pre-condition for participation in local elections in the Netherlands this year.

A total of 3 ethnically Turkish citizens living in the Netherlands have been removed as candidates from their parties' pre-election lists due to their unwillingness to recognize Armenian claims of genocide as true. With local elections coming up on November 22, a campaign started by Armenians living in the diaspora has met with success, as the Dutch Social Democrat Workers' Party and the Christian Democrat Party both removed Turkish candidates from their candidate lists following the candidates' refusal to acknowledge the so-called Armenian genocide.

The removal of Social Democrat Workers' Party candidate Erdinc Sacan occured first this week, but was followed shortly by a decision by the Christian Democrat Party to remove both Ayhan Tonca and Osman Elmaci from its candidate lists.

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:14 AM
3 Turkish candidates removed from election lists in Holland speak to press



Three ethnically Turkish citizens of the Netherlands, who had been candidates for the upcoming November 22 early general elections until they were removed from their parties' candidate lists following their refusal to recognize the so-called Armenian genocide, have publicly criticized their political parties.

Speaking at a press conference yesterday, Osman Elmaci, who had been a candidate for the Christian Democratic Party, said it was a "dark day for Holland," noting he had been penalized in an un-democratic manner for personal views he held. Said Elmaci, "We have said we think the subject is one for historians to research. I would also like to know what happened 100 years ago. With these views, there is no reason I shouldn't take my place on that candidate list. We could have pulled out earlier, but we waited until the last minute. We wanted to see what they would do. We will continue our struggle within the party."

Another ethnically Turkish candidate from the Christian Democratic Party, Ayhan Tonca, noted of the developments within his party: "I do not even think that 99% of the party members understand this issue. We had to either support the official party view on this matter, or separate."

Another Turkish candidate, Erdinc Sacan of the Dutch Social Democrat Workers' Party, was also removed for refusing to support the Armenian claims of genocide.

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:15 AM
Turkish candidate penalized for refusing to support Armenian claims



http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2220984.jpgIn the Netherlands, a Turkish candidate for MP status in the Social Democrat Workers' Party has been removed from the party's candidate list following his refusal to acknowledge Armenian claims of genocide by Turkey.


Ethnically Turkish Dutch citizen Erdinc Sacan was previously on the list for the upcoming November 22 elections in the Netherlands, this after being elected to a leadership position in 2003 in the Netherland's Brabant State. The leader of the Dutch Social Democrat Workers' Party commented on the situation, saying "It was a difficult decision. But there cannot be any ambiguity within our party with regards to our stance on this question. The fact that Sacan was not giving his support clearly to the party on this position left us with no other choice."

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:19 AM
EU Parliament: Turkey's 301st article must change



http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2221197.jpgDebates which took place yesterday in the General Assembly of the EU Parliament put the spotlight on the controversial 301st article of the Turkish Penal Code (TSK), as EU parliamentarians considered aloud the status of the upcoming progress report on Turkey's quest for EU membership.


The EU's Commissioner in charge of Expansion, Olli Rehn, has noted that the controversial 301st article in TSK will most likely affect the upcoming EU progress report on Turkey in a negative light. Speaking yesterday in the European Parliament, Rehn said "With this article, Turkey is making a direct infraction on EU standards." Rehn also noted that he was "tired of working to change articles such as 301 and others," but that he would continue his work. Rehn also stressed in his comments that domestic reforms and debates in Turkey during the EU accession process must take place in a "democratic environment." Camiel Eurlings, an EU Parliamentarian who is workin himself on the preparation of the progress report for Turkey, said yesterday that the controversial 301st article of the TSK was "damaging" Turkey's image in the world at large.
The most recent case to cast attention on the 301st article was the trial of popular Turkish author Elif Safak, who was brought before court accused of "insulting Turkishness." The charges were dismissed as baseless on the very first day of her trial.

my comment: However, the same article exists in France, Germany, Italy etc. etc. etc. EU is still loosing blood on the Eastern side, namely in Turkey

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 05:34 AM
http://www.yayinonline.com/asx/radyoplayer.asp?a=82749291736336630546696818596541 250515729859023610216526438&sk=2&rd=bestfm&lp=2blank


live radio from istanbul, turkish musik sounds like a little bit european, a little bit westernian and a little bit easternian.... just try one time, and if you write your comments about how it sounds like... you're welcome...

musicial
September 29th, 2006, 06:15 AM
Autumn marathon lies ahead for Turkey’s foreign policy

Friday, September 29, 2006

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/92006/m55395.jpg
It is still a matter of uncertainty whether US President Bush will deliver strong words of support for the ruling Justice and Development Party government following a meeting with Prime Minister Erdoğan scheduled for Monday

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



A hectic October schedule that seems out of place with the relaxed mood of Indian summer awaits the government, particularly due to significant meetings between the prime minister and foreign leaders.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's scheduled meeting in Washington with U.S. President George W. Bush on Monday is expected to cover a wide range of foreign policy issues such as Iran's disputed nuclear program and the Middle East conflict.
Nevertheless, the strength of messages expected to be delivered by the U.S. side concerning Turkey's growing uneasiness with the presence of members of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) in neighboring Iraq will prove important not only for bilateral relations between NATO allies Turkey and the United States but will also be significant to the domestic agenda.
As the meeting in Washington will come only hours after a key speech to be delivered in Ankara by Chief of General Staff Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt, the outcome of the meeting between Erdoğan and Bush is expected to dominate the agenda of domestic politics along with the military's recent criticism of the government. Büyükanıt has already said he would address European Union criticism of the military's dominant role in Turkish politics during his speech on Monday, while relations between Turkey and the EU are likely to take an intense turn with mutual visits between EU capitals and Ankara in October. Following the U.S. talks, Erdoğan will travel to Britain to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, on Oct. 3, when EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn is expected to be in Ankara for talks with Turkish officials.

milleniumcab
September 30th, 2006, 12:01 AM
Three ethnically Turkish citizens of the Netherlands, who had been candidates for the upcoming November 22 early general elections until they were removed from their parties' candidate lists following their refusal to recognize the so-called Armenian genocide, have publicly criticized their political parties.

I don't know?... It most definitely looks like double standart to me...Demand free press in Turkey but unpractice it in EU...

Why does Turkey want so bad to be part of an union where she is not welcomed anyway?....

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 05:23 AM
Commander vows military will never bow to EU

Saturday, September 30, 2006



http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/92006/m55448.jpg‘I feel sorry for these poor wretches who are preparing their own end. These groups will either leave Turkey or be drowned in the sea of Anatolia,’ says Naval Forces Commander Adm. Karahanoğlu

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



The Turkish military will never agree to concessions in the name of harmonization with European Union standards, the commander of the naval forces said yesterday, joining a wave of criticism by the military.
“It should be known clearly that the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) can never turn a blind eye to the basic values of the Republic of Turkey set out in the Constitution for the sake of EU ideals and the process of harmonization with the EU. It will not allow the weakening of these values, either,” Adm. Yener Karahanoğlu told a ceremony at the opening of the school year at a naval academy in Istanbul.
He said the military would guard these values even more forcefully if the EU demands involve concessions on “our honor and security and foreign policy interests.”
“In this perspective, attempts to turn the process of harmonization with the EU into an area where hostile policies on the part of certain countries and groups are being implemented should never be allowed to proceed,” he added.
Karahanoğlu's remarks were the strongest criticism against the EU since Hansjoerg Kretschmer, the EU's envoy in Ankara, criticized the military's habit of expressing an opinion on almost every issue.
Since then, Land Forces Commander Gen. İlker Başbuğ has defended the military's right to speak up in defense of nationalism and secularism.
On Thursday, another senior military official, Air Forces Commander Gen. Faruk Cömert, warned against “different approaches that feed [Islamic] reactionaries and terrorism,” saying such approaches would lead Turkey to disaster. “If the roof collapses, an outcome where everyone is buried under it might be unavoidable,” he said.
Chief of General Staff Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt has already said he would deliver his response speech to Kretschmer's criticism on Oct. 2.
Turkey, an EU candidate since 1999, has carried out numerous reforms in the name of bringing its laws closer with EU standards, some of which have trimmed the powers of the military.
Turkey began EU entry talks last year but is not expected to join for many years. The European Commission is expected to criticize Ankara's reform record and the continued political influence of the military in its annual report in November.
Karahanoğlu said domestic and foreign groups bent on destroying the armed forces were stepping up their efforts. “I feel sorry for these poor wretches who are preparing their own end. These groups will either leave Turkey or will be drowned in the sea of Anatolia,” Karahanoğlu said.
Nationalists have long accused the EU and its backers at home of aiming to break up Turkey under the guise of promoting the rights of cultural and religious minorities.
Karahanoğlu's remarks, like those of other top commanders earlier in the week, appeared targeted at the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan as well.
“In a Turkey where some forces are allowed to continue using the screen of democracy to pursue their dark aims, giving concessions on secularism and the unitary structure of the state will cause harm that would be impossible to repair,” Karahanoğlu said. “I am of the opinion that seeing opposition to secularism grow in force and secularism slowly being degraded should make us think,” he went on to say, although he appeared confident that the military could deal with the situation if necessary. “This unending strength of ours is sufficient to overcome every kind of threat,” he said.

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 05:25 AM
Commanders line up to rain down criticism

Saturday, September 30, 2006

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/92006/m55481.jpg
Naval Forces Commander Adm. Karahanoğlu takes the floor after Gen. Başbuğ and Gen. Cömert. He says the military will never bow to EU demands and will resist efforts to undermine Turkey’s national interests or its secularism

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



Naval Forces Commander Adm. Yener Karahanoğlu became the latest military official yesterday to criticize the European Union and the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, saying that the military will never bow to EU demands and will resist efforts aimed at undermining Turkey's secular order.
Karahanoğlu, speaking at a ceremony marking the start of the school year at a naval academy in Istanbul, said domestic and foreign groups bent on destroying the armed forces were stepping up their efforts and added: “I feel sorry for these poor wretches who are preparing their own end. These groups will either leave Turkey or will be drowned in the sea of Anatolia.”
In perhaps the strongest-wording military criticism to date against Hansjoerg Kretschmer, the EU's envoy in Turkey who recently criticized the military for expressing an opinion on almost every issue, Karahanoğlu said: “It should be clearly understood that the Turkish Armed Forces will never turn a blind eye to the basic values of the Republic of Turkey as set out in the Constitution for the sake of EU ideals and the process of harmonization with the EU. Nor will it allow the weakening of these values.”
This statement comes after Land Forces Commander Gen. İlker Başbuğ defended the military's right to speak up in defense of nationalism and secularism in a speech earlier this week. On Thursday, another senior military official, Air Forces Commander Gen. Faruk Cömert, warned against “different approaches that feed [Islamic] reactionaries and terrorism,” saying such approaches would lead Turkey to disaster. Chief of General Staff Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt has already said that he will deliver his response to Kretschmer's criticism in a speech on Oct. 2.

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 05:29 AM
Turkey firm on ‘genocide’ bill

Saturday, September 30, 2006

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



The French National Assembly is scheduled to vote on Oct. 12 on a highly contentious bill that penalizes any denial of an alleged Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Empire that was shelved last spring. The decision came at the request of the main opposition Socialist Party, also the architect of the bill. Ankara expressed concern that adoption of such a controversial bill would harm relations between the two peoples as well as French businesspersons who have been doing business in and with Turkey, underlining the importance that Turkey attributes to bilateral relations with France.

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Ankara resolute over Armenian bill, sole concern ties with France

Saturday, September 30, 2006

'The Armenian lobby should abandon backstage games and come up with concrete arguments supported by historical facts,' say Turkish diplomatic sources

EMİNE KART

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



The French National Assembly has decided to vote in the coming days on a highly contentious bill -- shelved last spring, leading to dismay and anger among the Armenian diaspora in France -- that penalizes any denial of an alleged Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Empire.
The assembly's decision for the vote, scheduled for Oct. 12, came at the request from the main opposition Socialist Party, the bill's architect.
When the bill first appeared on the agenda in May, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, backed by Turkish business leaders and unions, appealed to France to block the contentious item, warning of the potential threat to bilateral relations.
As of yesterday the Turkish capital didn't feel the need to release an official response to the recent development in France, which comes at a time when the atmosphere in domestic French politics is heating up with the approach of presidential and parliamentary elections, both slated for next year.
Yet diplomatic sources at the Turkish Foreign Ministry, speaking with the Turkish Daily News, underlined the importance Turkey attributes to bilateral relations with France and expressed concern that adoption of such a controversial bill would harm relations between the two peoples as well as French businessmen doing business in and with Turkey.
“Even if this bill is adopted, it is not possible for Turkey to accept such a theory,” the same sources said, while noting that Ankara has been contacting French officials at every level to prevent the bill's adoption.
Turkish officials drew attention to the fact that Armenia, with its aim of having genocide accusations against Turkey accepted by third-party countries, is trying to damage bilateral relations between Turkey and other countries to secure an advantage in the political arena.
“The Armenian lobby should abandon backstage games and should come up with concrete arguments supported by historical facts,” the diplomatic sources said, referring to Ankara's proposal last year to establish a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian experts to study allegations of an Armenian genocide in the final days of the Ottoman Empire.
Earlier this month, during talks with his French counterpart, Philippe Douste-Blazy, as part of a visit to France, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül suggested that France participate in such a body.
Gül said at the time that other countries, including France, could join the proposed committee of Turkish and Armenian academics to study the allegations.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan sent a letter to Armenian President Robert Kocharian proposing the establishment of such a committee, but his proposal was turned down by Kocharian, who instead offered an intergovernmental commission that would study ways of resolving problems between the two neighboring countries. Turkey says its proposal is still on the table.
During talks with Douste-Blazy, Gül also raised Ankara's uneasiness over the French bill penalizing any denial of the alleged genocide. Gül told Douste-Blazy it was a contradiction to hold a parliamentary debate on a bill that restricts freedom of expression, while the European Union presses Ankara to amend Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code (TCK) under which a wave of authors and journalists has been tried. “We cannot accept a historical issue being dragged onto a political platform,” he said at the time.

Chirac's first trip to Armenia:
Ahead of his first official visit to Armenia at the invitation of Kocharian, Chirac used the phrase “the Armenian genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire.”
Chirac employed the wording during an interview with an Armenian journal; the transcript was translated into Turkish by the French Embassy in Ankara.
“Europe is first of all an effort of reconciliation, peace, respect and openness to others. I believe in Turkey's ability to pay historical tribute, as the spirit of Europe lies in that,” he said.
Chirac, who was scheduled to depart on Friday for the official two-day visit, is also scheduled to visit a monument dedicated to the killings of Anatolian Armenians called the “Memorial to Armenian Genocide.” Today, Chirac and Kocharian will attend a concert by the renowned Charles Aznavour that will be performed to mark the beginning of the Year of Armenia in France, called “Armenia, My Friend.”

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 06:16 AM
With the beginning of first world war, all people who can war or defence their country in Ottoman Empire were at fronts. only women and children and ethnical minorities left inside the Empire. One minority was the Armenians. Because all the security forces were at 7 fronts from Middle East to Kafkas Lands from south Mediterrenian Sea to Balkans, the Armenians found this unique opportunity to rush at the innocent and undefenced women and children turkish people in Anotolia and killed around 300.000 people and burned all towns and downtowns in Anatolia. At those times communication was not so fast and the Ottoman Empire Headquarters in Istanbul did not learn this on time. Even it learned this, it had nothing to do for this Armenian ethnic aggression against turkish women and children due to the fact that all armies were at fronts. Eventually the armies turned back and saw the genocide against turkish women and children in Anatolia done by the Armenians. the Emporer found courts to judge or to adjudicate the leaders of armeanian aggression and gave them death penalty. And the court decided for the armenian, that the armenians in Anatolia should be moved to another lands of Ottoman Empire. Armenians had been given lands in Syria, Iraq Lebenan etc. etc. etc. all of which were at those times Ottoman Empire Lands. It means that because the armenians created ethnical problems in Anatolia, they were to immigrate to other lands of Ottoman Empire. This was the penalty the court had given to the armenian minority in Anatolia. But because of this immigration it is said that between 50-100thousands armenians lost their lifes on the way of this immigration because of the bad climatical conditions. Because at those times people were not traveling with comfortable vehicles like planes or trains. they were either traveling with horses or on foot. That is the so-called Armenian genocide done by Ottoman Empire.

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 06:58 AM
As a result of the obligatory immigration from Anatolia to other lands of Ottoman Empire, lots of armenians found nothing to do with their new lands like Syria, Lebanon or Iraq etc. etc. they made a second migration to France and to USA at those times. Today armenian after app. a 100years of second migration have powered their situation in USA and France. remembering the past, they want to take a revenge from today's Turkish States. with their power in local government in USA and in France they want a genocide decision from these lands' parlements to be accepted. By this decesion they want to get money and may be land from Turkish Eastern side for Armenia.

However, the first problem with their desire is that THERE DOES NOT EXIST SUCH A GENOCIDE. Morever the constraversy is true: The Armenians minority in Anatolia in Ottoman times made a genocide against turkish women and children. There only exists a court decesion that the leaders of armenian murder have been given a death penalty by the Ottomans. A second court decesion is that this minority must be immigrated to other lands of the Ottomans. And that was an internal affair of Ottoman Empire at those times. If this minority had not been forced (with court decesion) to a migration then there would be a a real genocide. After learning about the armenian murder to turkish women and children the whole empire population was on alert for the armenians in Anatolia. That is why the armenians have been removed from Anatolia and have been moved far from the scene of the crime places as a solution to protect the Armenians in Anatolia. The second problem is that this accusation must be done against the Ottomans but the Ottomans have already took their place on the pages of history.

Turkey finds the Armenians claims nonsense and as insolence and impudence. Turkey always says that the Ottomans' archives is open to the world public and to all historians and to all researchers. This archieves say that there did not took place a genocide for the Armenians in Anatolia. But with a political desire and with their lobbies in France and in USA the armenians want to get a political decesion from different countries' parlaments that there took place a genocide and then they want to use this as a gun against Turkey.

Armenia has also a second conflict between Azerbaijan, that is a second turkish land. Armenia make an invasion of 20% of Azerbaijan in last 2 decades. USA and EU say on these theme that Armenian should turn back from this 20%of Azerbaijanland as soon as possible but armenia does not turn back, creating further antipathy in Turkey. May be Armenians want to coumuflage this action with their claims against Turkey.

musicial
September 30th, 2006, 11:55 AM
I don't know?... It most definitely looks like double standart to me...Demand free press in Turkey but unpractice it in EU...

milleniumcab, You are right. Europe cannot be democratic in it's vessel. Europe consists actually of lands and of population with ethnic nationalism or it is hard in it's relegious core. To me, European lands seem to be democratic because of the democracy giant namely USA. In this sense I say one time again god bless USA. and acc. to me if USA looses power, it's ideals namely democracy and freedom at first vanish step by step or suddenly around the world.

Why does Turkey want so bad to be part of an union where she is not welcomed anyway?....

milleniumcab,Turkey does not accept any unfair implementation of EU. Turkey wants to be a part of EU just because of taking role in EU's decesion making processes. Being a member of EU brings actually nothing to Turkey but development-way of EU can one day be a threat to Turkey that is why it wants to be inside of it. That is the reason. to avoid peacefully from a potential threat of EU in the future for example is the basic reason.

milleniumcab
October 1st, 2006, 02:17 AM
Armenia has also a second conflict between Azerbaijan, that is a second turkish land. Armenia make an invasion of 20% of Azerbaijan in last 2 decades. USA and EU say on these theme that Armenian should turn back from this 20%of Azerbaijanland as soon as possible but armenia does not turn back, creating further antipathy in Turkey. May be Armenians want to coumuflage this action with their claims against Turkey.

I just looked at a map of the region... It seems like Armenia's intention was actually to cut of that little bit of border Turkey would have with Azerbaijan.. How convenient...They invaded just enough to seperate two Turkish Republics... Am I wrong?...

musicial
October 1st, 2006, 06:39 AM
I just looked at a map of the region... It seems like Armenia's intention was actually to cut of that little bit of border Turkey would have with Azerbaijan.. How convenient...They invaded just enough to seperate two Turkish Republics... Am I wrong?...

No, you are right again. they have invaded enough to seperate two turkish Republics. although Azerbaijan and Turkey are two turkish republics with different names,from the aspect of international politics turkey could not intervene in the war between Azarbaijan and Armenia that was shortly after cold war. But today nobody accepts this invasion. Both USA and EU lands and UN (United Nations) have accepted lots of decesions that the invaded land of Armenia belongs to Azerbaijan. Of course most importantly Azerbaijan and Turkey accept it never. But Turkey's contact with Azerbaijan is done over Nahjivan (a second and divided Azeri-land from Azerbaijan and it is a land between Turkey and Azerjbaijan).

However to be able to be unfair I also have to give this information. On the invaded land there was Armenian minority in Azarbaijan. Armenia's reason to rush at Azarbaijan was this minority, however there was nothing bad against the Armenian minority in Azarbaijan(because culturally turks are not ethnic nationalist people). and this reason of Armenia was against international politics. In the same region there was 200.000 Armenians and 2.500.000 Azeri-Turks. Because of this invasion 2.5 million Azeri-Turks have been immigrants in their own Lands. If Turkey shows this reason to it's neighbours then Turkey must also invade the Eastern side of Greece and and the Eastern side of Bulgaria. In these places there are lots of turkish population living in minority groups. There are also turkish minorities in Iraq in Syria, in Iran and in Kosovo and on the island of Cyprus(after 3times of ethnical clearance of Turks by the Greeks on the island, the Turks on the island with the help of Turkey separeted them from the Greeks on the north side, they found a small State, namely Nordern Turkish Republic of Cyprus since then there does not exist any ethnical problems between the Turks and the Greeks on the island). These problems left Turkey as the problems from Ottoman times. Because Ottomans was not an Empire depending on turkish nationalism, the Emporers did not care about it, did not think that one time comes and the Empire collapses and there appears lots of independent ethnic other nations as States and the Turks will stay in difficulties in between other ethnic nations. These are such problems Turkey face with now.

musicial
October 1st, 2006, 08:42 AM
‘Genocide’ tension with France grows

Sunday, October 1, 2006

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/102006/m55529.jpg

Asked at a press conference if Turkey should recognize the 1915-1917 massacre at the hands of Ottoman Turks Armenians as genocide, he replies: 'Honestly, I believe so'

ANKARA/YEREVAN - Turkish Daily News with AFP



Relations between Ankara and Paris suffered a serious blow on Saturday with the statement by French President Jacques Chirac declaring on a visit to Armenia that Turkey should recognize the massacre of Armenians during World War I as “genocide” before its possible accession to the European Union.
Asked at a press conference if Turkey should recognize the 1915-1917 massacre at the hands of Ottoman Turks Armenians as genocide, he replied: "Honestly, I believe so."
"All countries grow up acknowledging their dramas and their errors," said Chirac, who is on a two-day visit to Armenia.
The development came amid intense efforts by Turkey to avoid the French National Assembly adopt a resolution recognizing the killings of Armenians in the first quarter of last century as a “genocide.” The vote is scheduled for Oct. 12.
Yet diplomatic sources at the Turkish Foreign Ministry, speaking to the Turkish Daily News, underlined the importance Turkey attributes to bilateral relations with France and expressed concern that adoption of such a controversial bill would harm relations between the two peoples as well as French businessmen doing business in and with Turkey.
“Even if this bill is adopted, it is not possible for Turkey to accept such a theory,” the same sources said, while noting that Ankara has been contacting French officials at every level to prevent the bill's adoption.
Turkish officials drew attention to the fact that Armenia, with its aim of having genocide accusations against Turkey accepted by third-party countries, is trying to damage bilateral relations between Turkey and other countries to secure an advantage in the political arena.
“The Armenian lobby should abandon backstage games and should come up with concrete arguments supported by historical facts,” the diplomatic sources said, referring to Ankara's proposal last year to establish a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian experts to study allegations of an Armenian genocide in the final days of the Ottoman Empire.
Earlier this month, during talks with his French counterpart, Philippe Douste-Blazy, as part of a visit to France, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül suggested that France participate in such a body.
Gül said at the time that other countries, including France, could join the proposed committee of Turkish and Armenian academics to study the allegations.
While Ankara refrained Saturday from issuing a statement condemning the development, senior Turkish officials talking to the TDN said Chirac's remarks were “totally unacceptable” and will likely have a serious impact on economic and political relations between Turkey and France.
On Saturday Chirac, accompanied by his wife Bernadette, attended a solemn ceremony at Armenia's monument to the 1915-1917 massacres of Armenians at the hands of Ottoman Turks. Chirac is on the first ever visit of a French president to the impoverished Caucasus nation, which is at odds with its Turkic neighbors Azerbaijan and Turkey.
Chirac placed flowers at the towering Tsitsernakaberd monument where he was greeted by an honor guard playing mournful music before being taken on a tour of the so-called "Genocide Museum." France, which has 400,000 citizens of Armenian descent,(I suppose that because France 400.000 armenian French, France is doing this dishonest dance with Turkey because of coming elections in France. France is doing this dance in every election period in France. This supposition can also be a real reason why France in this game does play with Turkey unfairly) officially recognized the World War I-era events as “genocide” in 2001, putting a strain on its relations with European Union aspirant and fellow NATO member Turkey.
Many countries, including the United States and Israel, have so far refused to label the massacres as genocide. Ankara argues that 300,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in an internal conflict sparked by attempts by Armenians to win independence for eastern Anatolia and secure assistance for their bid from Russia -- Turkey's age-old nemesis. Armenia is also locked in a stalemate with Azerbaijan over the ethnic-Armenian enclave of Nagorno Karabakh, which it gained control of in an early 1990s war but which is still internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan.

Note: in this news the blues is my comment.

musicial
October 1st, 2006, 08:45 AM
Cyprus clauses in EU report disappointing, Mercan says

Sunday, October 1, 2006

Cyprus-related provisions of the document refrain from recalling Turkey’s steps for a settlement of the decades-old dispute and echo top EU officials urging Ankara to normalize its relations with EU-member Greek Cyprus and allow in its ships and airplanes

FULYA ÖZERKAN

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



Cyprus clauses in the strongly worded European Parliament document on Turkey's progress toward eventual European Union membership seem to be in the shadow of calls from European parliamentarians and EU officials urging Ankara to reinvigorate the reform process.
In a non-binding report adopted last week, the European Parliament chided Turkey for its failure to meet EU requirements and demanded that Ankara fulfill its obligation to open up its sea and air ports to Greek Cypriot vessels and planes under a customs union protocol.
“I was disappointed mostly by Cyprus passages in the report,” a senior ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) deputy, Murat Mercan, told the Turkish Daily News.
“It could have been more balanced,” he added.
Cyprus-related provisions of the document refrain from recalling Turkey's steps for a settlement of the decades-old dispute and echo top EU officials urging Ankara to normalize its relations with EU-member Greek Cyprus and allow in its ships and airplanes.
Turkey, however, says it will maintain its stance unless the 25-nation bloc makes good on a pledge to end the economic isolation of northern Cyprus. Brussels rejects any linkage between the ports issue and the lifting of sanctions on Turkish Cypriots and has warned Turkey that failure to fulfill its obligations could cause a setback in its EU accession negotiations, which opened last October.
Similarly, the European Parliament's report warned that the “lack of progress in this regard will have serious implications for the negotiation process and could even bring it to a halt.
“I would expect the report to encompass more encouraging clauses that acknowledge Turkish steps on Cyprus,” Mercan added.
Greek Cypriots, however, welcomed the European Parliament's Turkey report, with the Greek Cypriot press describing the document as a “slap [in the face] for Ankara.”

Pros and cons:
European parliamentarians mostly focused on reform pace in their report, warning Ankara that it must accelerate far-reaching reforms if it wanted to become a member of the EU.
They also noted Turkey had shown “insufficient progress” in the areas of freedom of expression, religious and minority rights, women's rights and the rule of law since the opening of entry talks.
The report's author, Dutch parliamentarian Camiel Eurlings, who admitted that the report was “tough” but “fair,” urged Ankara to see it as a “motivation to speed up reforms.”
But despite the presence of controversial articles, European parliamentarians voted certain clauses favorable to Ankara, which expressed dissatisfaction with the report but appreciated European parliamentarians' efforts to prevent further damages to Turkish-EU ties.
“This report is more positive than another document adopted by the European Parliament in 2005,” said Mercan, who was one of the Turkish lawmakers lobbying European parliamentarians in Brussels and Strasbourg in a bid to change the critical report, which was tougher when it was first adopted at the European Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee earlier last month.
He cited an emphasis on market economy, condemnation of terrorism by the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) and extending of solidarity with Turkey in the fight against terrorism as positive elements in the European Parliament document.
To the content of Ankara, the European Parliament deleted a controversial clause that would have sought to make recognition by Turkey of an alleged genocide of Armenians at the hands of the late Ottoman Empire a pre-condition for full membership.
But the report still called on Turkey to “acknowledge the Armenian genocide” before it can join the EU, with European parliamentarians saying it was “indispensable” for Turkey to “come to terms with and recognize its past.”
Ankara is now awaiting a progress report from the EU's executive arm, the commission. EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn is to travel to Turkey on Monday before the release of the key report. Parliament has been considering an EU-inspired reform package designed to meet EU requirements, and Rehn earlier said he expected legal changes to be approved in October. Last-minute legal reforms could help Turkey's case in the progress report on reforms but EU officials have said they will wait and see if the contents include real progress on key issues.

musicial
October 1st, 2006, 09:01 AM
1) EU has put an amborgo on Nordern Turkish Rebuplic of Cyprus. The reason was that the Turks on island has saved themselves from ethnic clearance by the Greeks on the island and the turks on the island found an independent state in nordern side. Because of the ambargos on this small turkish state on the island their GNP per person has stayed in 3000dolar. Since 30years there is an amborgo on turkish nordern side.

2) EU did not want to see or may be supported the Greek's side narcotic trade, clearence of black money in the greek side and all other internationally illegal activities of the Greek side. and the greek side has made a capital accumulation since 30 years. Today Greek side has one of the biggesst naval transportation fleet in Europe. Today Greek side has GNP per person over 25.000 dolar. but Greek side needs an additional jobs for their biggest naval transportation fleet to grow their GNP per person to 30.000 dolar. Turkey makes an amborgo to Greek side. That is why this naval transportation fleet of greek side is working in undercapacity. THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM OF EU WITH Turkey. EU wants from turkey that Turkey should give jobs to Greeks and let them get further money but they continue their amborgo implementation on nordern Turkish side.

THAT IS ALSO AN EXAMPLE OF EU's human rights, democratic values, fairness etc. etc. etc.

musicial
October 2nd, 2006, 02:30 PM
Sezer warns of Islamist threat, defends military

Monday, October 2, 2006

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/102006/m55621.jpgThe president, in his last speech to Parliament, says the military’s credibility and its status as a supra-party institution must be protected and complains that efforts to ‘politicize religion’ are creating tension in Turkey

ANKARA - TDN Parliament Bureau



President Ahmet Necdet Sezer yesterday joined the military in its warnings of a rising threat against Turkey from Islamist forces and defended the military, saying its credibility and status as a supra-party institution must be protected.
“The Islamist reactionary danger is one of the threats against our internal security. Those who cannot easily comprehend the Islamic reactionary threat in Turkey should analyze developments in Turkey over the past 20 years and see how social and personal life has evolved,” Sezer said in an address at the formal opening of Parliament for the new legislative year. “It can be seen that the reactionary threat has not changed its objective of altering the basic characteristics of the state.”
The speech was his last address to Parliament before he steps down as president in May 2007.
Sezer's criticism, apparently directed at the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, came before a key speech by Chief of General Staff Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt today, and a day after Erdoğan dismissed claims that Turkey is threatened by Islamic reactionary movements and implicitly urged military commanders to refrain from making statements that could stir up tension in the country.
“Debates over the [Islamic] reactionary threat are pointless. There is no such threat,” Erdoğan was quoted yesterday as telling a group of journalists on a plane en route to the United States. “Statements that would raise tension in Turkey should be avoided. I spoke to the chief of general staff on this issue.” Land Forces Commander Gen. İlker Başbuğ and other top commanders warned in speeches last week of attempts to undermine the secular order.

musicial
October 2nd, 2006, 02:33 PM
Sezer delivers warning-laden 'farewell' speech

Monday, October 2, 2006

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/102006/m55617.jpg

The president says Turkey is faced with a rising threat from Islamist elements, says the military’s credibility must be protected

ANKARA - TDN Parliament Bureau



President Ahmet Necdet Sezer warned yesterday that Turkey faced a threat from rising Islamism, joining military commanders who have recently warned against such threats and defended the military's right to speak up in matters of nationalism and secularism.
“Islamist reactionary danger is one of the threats against our internal security. Those who cannot easily comprehend the Islamic reactionary threat in Turkey should analyze developments in Turkey over the past 20 years and see how social and personal life has evolved,” Sezer said in an address at the formal opening of Parliament for a new legislative year. “It can be seen that the reactionary threat has not changed its objective of altering the basic characteristics of the state.”
The speech was his last address to Parliament before he steps down as president in May 2007.
Sezer said attempts to roll back the gains of the secular republic and to politicize religion were raising tension in the country.
The staunchly secular president's remarks appeared to be directed at the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, which has roots in political Islam but denies pursuing an Islamic agenda.
In a show of solidarity with the military, which issued similar veiled warnings against the government over the past week, Sezer said the military enjoyed the trust of the nation and that protecting the credibility of the military and its “supra-parties” standing was a key duty for all.
Sezer's extensive speech preceded that of Chief of Staff Gen. Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt, who is expected to speak today (Monday). Sezer, a former chief judge of the Constitutional Court, devoted a major part of his speech to the principle of secularism. The Constitution, he said, bans the use of rights and freedoms in a way to undermine basic principles of the secular republic and accepts that rights and freedoms can be restricted for the sake of protecting the secular republic. “The principle of secularism is the core of all the values that constitute the Republic of Turkey,” he said.

musicial
October 2nd, 2006, 02:51 PM
After 5 high top commanders for the name of army in Turkey, yesterday the President of Turkey said and warned against radical islamic developments in Turkey. And today a high court judge vows that high courts are powerful enough to punish the radical islamic movements strictly. I am expecting to hear another constitutional powers' voices in following days to warn AKP government of increased trend in radical Islam. What I see till now is that the AKP government is blockaded on this issue by all other constitutional powers in Turkey such that AKP government do not have any more place to continue this game. Otherwise it seems to me that if AKP government tries to continue politicizing radical Islam in Turkey, this party will loose the government in the next elections.

I conclude this theme: Turkey is a secular State. Secularism is the lifestyle of turkish people and turkey can never be converted into an Islamic State.

musicial
October 7th, 2006, 04:44 PM
http://www.erenet.tv/

click on this link. on this web side you will see a tv screen. at the right side of this screen there is a list in 10 pages. On the first two pages you will see broadcasting from Turkey (online tv broadcasting without any charge, totally free). For example if you want to hear turkish musik click on "Müzik" and choose "the MMC TV" and click again on the list in the third row. enjoy the free broadcasting! :)

musicial
October 7th, 2006, 04:59 PM
There are actually app. 200 !? national or international TV channels (actually I do not count local or institutional channels, I mean small channels are not included in this number, if they are also counted then the total number can reach to may be 1000 TV channels) and app. 5000 !? radio channels in Turkey. these numbers must be enough for you to suppose that media is totally independent as it is in America, in Turkey.

The media In Turkey is totally independent. Every channel broadcasts it's own vision independently. if you can see one time how independent the media is, you get a shock. anyway...

on this web side you see just 81 different turkish channels, the others are with charge. that is why they are not signed on this web side. these are the channels without any cost broadcasting online via internet.

musicial
October 7th, 2006, 05:25 PM
as an alternative turkish music channel -after clicking on "Müzik" on the second row at the right side of the screen- look at the bottom of that square where you can choose any channel. you see that there are 5 pages, choose the fourth page and choose the 7th row "Sincan Haber" which also seems to be a good musik channel.

musicial
October 7th, 2006, 05:40 PM
guys!! are you alive!! did you try "Sincan Haber" as a music channel. do not isolate yourself from the rest of the world. try one time this channel. there are music clips from other TV channels on this channel. that is good. I mean good clips... because this channel has no cost to you, it does not mean that the quality is low here.

musicial
October 8th, 2006, 04:01 PM
Origin of The Turks From Chinese Annals
"The ancestors of the Türks lived to the west of the Western Sea. They constitute an independent tribe. No doubt they are a detached branch of of the Hsiung-nu. (the Huns) They belong to the A-shih-na clan. Later they were defeated by a neighbouring country which completeley exterminated their tribe. There was a boy aged ten. The soldiers, in view of his youth couldnot bring themselves to kill him. they cut off his feet and arms and threw him into a marsh. There lived there a she wolf who fed him with meat. As the boy grew up he had sexual intercourse with the wolf and made her pregnant. The king [who had earlier attacked the tribe], apprised of the boy being alive, dispatched someone to kill him. The messenger sawthe shewolf with the boy and wanted to kill her as well. But the wolf fled to a mountain north of the Kao-ch'ang. In the mountain there was a cavern and in the cavern there was a plaincovered with rich vegetation, stretching over several hundreds of li and enclosed on its four sides by mountains. Therein the wolf took refuge and later gave birth to ten boys. The ten boys grew up and took wives from the outside. In front of the gate to the camp they placed a standard with a wolf's head on it, so as to show they had not forgotten their origins. Liitle by little they constituted several hundred families. Several generations later they came out from the cavern, a certain A-hsien-shih led the tribe out from the cavern and submitted to the Juan-Juan. They served as blacksmith to this. From Denis Sinor, The legendary Origin of The Türks, Folklorica, Fetschrift J. Oinas.

musicial
October 8th, 2006, 04:02 PM
The 16 Great Turkish Empires

1) The "GREAT HUN EMPIRE" - 204 B.C - 216 A.D


Founder - Mete (Bagatir)
Area - At the north, Siberia; south, Tibet - Kashmir; east, Pacific Ocean; west, Caspian Sea; (Total Area - 18,000,000 Km 2)
2) The "WESTERN HUN EMPIRE" - 48 - 216 A.D

Founder - Panu
Area - The area over present Central Asia
3) The "EUROPEAN HUN EMPIRE" - 275 - 454 A.D

Founder - Muncuk, Oktar, Rua & Aybars (brothers)
Area - Southern Russia, Romania, Northern
Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria, Chekoslovakia, Southern & Central Germany; The area from eastern France to the Ural mountains; from northern Hungary to the Byzantine Empire; (Total Area - 4,000,000 Km 2)
4) The "WHITE HUN EMPIRE" - 420 - 552 A.D

Founder - Aksuvar (Aksungur)
Area - Half of northern India,
Afghanistan, parts of Turkistan (Total Area - 3,500,000 Km 2)
5) The "GOKTURK EMPIRE" - 552 - 743 A.D

Founder - Bumin Khan (Tumen)
Area - The inacessible valleys of the Altay Mountains (Ergenikon) (Total Area - 18,000,000 Km 2)
6) The "AVAR EMPIRE" - 562 - 796 A.D

Founder - Bayar Khan
Area - The area between the Volga, Hungary and Bessarabia
7) The "HAZAR EMPIRE" - 602 - 1016 A.D

Founder - There are no historical data as to the original founder, however, its greatest ruler was Hakan Yusuf.
Area - The Hazars who are believed to be an offshoot of the Gokturks migrated to the West and formed a state stretching from the Caucasian Mntns to the Danube and to the middle of and Southern Russia.
8) The "UYGUR EMPIRE" - 740 - 1335 A.D

Founder - Kutlug Bilgekul Khan
Area - Central Asia and Northern Mongolia.
9) The "KARAHAN" - 932 - 1212 A.D

Founder - Saltuk Bugra Han
Area - All the Trans-Oxus area including the area between the Issyk and Balkash Lakes
10) The "GAZNELI EMPIRE" - 962 - 1183 A.D

Founder - Alptekin
Area - The area from the Trans-Oxus to the Ganges River, and from the shores of the Caspian to the steppes of the Pamir. (Total Area - 4,700,000 Km 2)
11) The "SELCUK EMPIRE" - 1040 - 1157 A.D

Founder - Seljuk
Area - At the East, Balkash and Issyk Lakes and the Tarim Derya; At the West, Aegean and the Mediterranean shores; At the North, Aral Lake, Caspian Sea, Caucasian and the Black Sea; At the South, the area including Arabia and the sea Omman. (Total Area - 10,000,000 Km 2)
12) The "HARZEMSHAH" - 1077 - 1231 A.D

Founder - Kudrettin Mehmet (Harzemshah)
Area - Persia, Southern Caucasia, Dagistan, Afghanistan and most of Central Asia. (Total Area - 5,000,000 Km 2)
13) The "GOLDEN HORDE" - 1224 - 1502 A.D

Founder - Batur Han
Area - Eastern Europe, the Western Ural Area, the Crimea and the area to the north of the Volga.
14) The "EMPIRE OF TIMUR KHAN" - 1369 - 1501 A.D

Founder - Timur Gurgani
Area - At the West, Balkans; At the North, Volga shores; At the South, Indian Ocean; At the East, Central Asia;
15) The "EMPIRE OF BABUR" - 1526 - 1858 A.D

Founder - Babur Shah
Area - Afghanistan and India (Total Area - 2,700,000 Km 2)
16) The "OTTOMAN EMPIRE" - 1299 - 1922 A.D
Founder - Osman Bey
Area - Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Arabia, Jordan, Israel, Syria, Iraq, Anatolia, Caucasia, the Crimea, Bessarabia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Hungary, the Sudan,.....and, the Black Sea, the Mediterranean Sea and the Red Sea were for a time - Turkish Lakes. (Total Area - 20,000,000 Km 2)

musicial
October 8th, 2006, 04:21 PM
http://www.harunyahya.org/Makaleler/res/kafkas_1.jpg

In this map you see the Turkish States (other than Turkey). Azerbaijan, Kazakistan, Özbekistan, Türkmenistan, Kırgızistan,Tacikistan and Turkey. These are the turkish States separated for some reasons from each other during history. There are also a big turkish minority in west China (East Turkistan). There are also turks (azeri-turks) in north Iran (app. 25million people). turkish is the 5. biggest language (with dialects) of the world. App. 250million people speak turkish.

I am sure that if the word "turk" is pronounced verbally, all people think automatically of Turkey. But this is not the situation. Turks today are living in separated States.

If Turkey gets a membership of EU, then it means that EU's influence can extend to Chinese borders, even inside the chinese borders because there are also turks app. 70millions.

ablarc
October 8th, 2006, 04:25 PM
musicial, have you met JCMan? You have much in common.

musicial
October 8th, 2006, 04:31 PM
musicial, have you met JCMan? You have much in common.

what do you mean? I did not meet JCman. give example of what we have in common please.

ablarc
October 8th, 2006, 04:38 PM
I did not meet JCman. give example of what we have in common please.
A fierce devotion to home turf.

musicial
October 8th, 2006, 04:53 PM
A fierce devotion to home turf.

if you said a fierce devotion for introducing turkey and related things, I would say that you were right. but a fierce devotion to home! is something strange for me...

ablarc
October 8th, 2006, 04:57 PM
^ Turkey is home, ...right?

musicial
October 8th, 2006, 05:08 PM
^ Turkey is home, ...right?

right, but I just intend to introduce turkey. I did not devote myself to Turkey. I write here occasionally, as I have enough time. I am not living in Turkey, in this sense Turkey is not my home, but I know Turkey very well.

ablarc
October 8th, 2006, 05:23 PM
^ Absence makes the heart grow fonder, eh? ;) :)

milleniumcab
October 8th, 2006, 08:40 PM
A fierce devotion to home turf.

:))))))))) But that's a good thing..

ablarc
October 8th, 2006, 08:47 PM
:))))))))) But that's a good thing..
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

musicial
October 9th, 2006, 05:46 AM
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

ablarc, as far as I understand you are reading topics as a spam investigator, aren't you!?:) to be suspicious of everthing is actually a lifestyle that I also prefer. but as being suspicious of something I ask myself these questions. Why am I suspicious of that? What can be the purpose of that! If you apply these questions to my topic here it appears that the only purpose can be the "introduction of Turkey". because you and lots of people have got fair information about it. Somebody may be you here at the beginning compared Turkey with Cuba. God! :eek: To me, it was something like comparing USA with Namibia (in continent Africa). I mean it was so unbeliavable and discussing! then I continued writing about Turkey and related informations. I also gave visual things about Turkey.

What is the operative definition that you can make now about Turkey? (Turkey is a westernian country but it has also an easternean face from some aspects) What did I get from this topic! (simply nothing because I knew Turkey well before I have written here, I mean I did not learn anything new from this topic.) What did you get from this topic? (You learned much about Turkey without costing you anything)

So I see no problem, but I would prefer to hear from you some other things like how turkish musik sounds you instead of accusing me with irrelevant things, for example home devotion, spammer. :confused:

Ninjahedge
October 9th, 2006, 09:36 AM
Musical, all he is saying is that no matter how sweet somethnig is, people will choke on it if you try to cram it down their throat.

If someone does not want chocolate, no matter how good it may be, do not feel offended by it. Leave it out and add something new to the plate and you may get a few to try, and like, what you have to offer.

Just try to avoid lines like:


guys!! are you alive!! did you try "Sincan Haber" as a music channel. do not isolate yourself from the rest of the world.

I, for one, did not feel encouraged to try the site after that rousing bit of encouragement.

So just relax and enjoy the company and do not think it is your duty to "educate" us on Turkey.... ;)

lofter1
October 9th, 2006, 10:03 AM
I went to your link to the music site but didn't ventue further -- as it appeared to be one of those sites that automatically starts installing tool bars and all sorts of other unwanted stuff ...

My PC is crazy enough without me encouraging it to re-configure on its own ...

musicial
October 9th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Just try to avoid lines like:

Sorry, I just wanted to make a kind joke inside my writing. I did not intent saying anything bad. sorry again, I suppose, my saying caused to a misunderstanding. sorry again...


I, for one, did not feel encouraged to try the site after that rousing bit of encouragement.

So just relax and enjoy the company and do not think it is your duty to "educate" us on Turkey.... ;)

yes I enjoy this web side. of course you are right. that is not my task. by the way I am learning here american English further without any cost;) . I mean daily spoken English in America.

musicial
October 9th, 2006, 10:51 AM
I went to your link to the music site but didn't ventue further -- as it appeared to be one of those sites that automatically starts installing tool bars and all sorts of other unwanted stuff ...

My PC is crazy enough without me encouraging it to re-configure on its own ...

lofter1, I suppose you went wrong! because there are no automatic installments in this web side(or you have a problem with your computer as you say). I said www.erenet.tv (http://www.erenet.tv) this web site comes automatically without further installments. And from there one can watch free (without any charge) TV channels from around the world (468free channels in total, just 81 of them are turkish). I have also seen and watched in this web side free american TV channels.

Actually the turkish words on the right upper side of the screen is similar to English. but I translate them into English

TV Listesi = TV List
Radyo Listesi = Radio List
Reyting= rating
Listem = my List
Türkçe= turkish (as language)
Müzik= musik
Haber=news
Spor=sport
Kanal Ara=channel search

musicial
October 16th, 2006, 11:36 AM
http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/15Imkansiz_asklar/15.jpg (http://www.milliyet.com.tr/content/galeri/yeni/goster.asp?id=2&galeriid=578)
Turkey is a land of people who are saying FORCE YOUR IMAGINATIONS, for example think of an impossible love between the two on the picture.....

Source: http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/16/index.html a turkish daily newspaper

musicial
October 16th, 2006, 12:04 PM
Turkey is judging a 92 years old turkish lady who is a Sumerologist (Sumer is a society which lived around B.C. 3000 in Mezopothamia (today's Iraq territories) and invented the Alphafet and used writing first in the world.

This lady, who is the most famous Sumerologist in the world, had searched Sumerwritings and learned their language and translated the writings into Turkish. What she had found was that the women in Sumer society had also used head-scarf. not only this but also In Sumer Society, working as a Prostitue volunteerly for the name of god (this god is of course a god in a different sense) for women was something holly. To be differentiated from other women, prostitutes were putting on (wearing) head-scarfs. Finally she said that head-scarfs were not a theme started with Islam, but also it was theme even in B.C. centuries. She also sent a letter to the wife of MP and said open (take off) your head-scarf. She said in her letter to the wife of MP of Turkey that "if you do in this way all the world's women would be grateful to you and you can be someone who has a remark in history".

Now, in Turkey this old researcher is being judged by courts in Turkey. The accusation is that she cultivated anger, grudge and inferiority in between turkish society. In 1 November 2006, she will be judged in a new session in a court in Istanbul. ------------------------------------------------------------------





http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2308126.jpg
Source: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/5265745.asp?m=1&gid=112&srid=3428&oid=4

Ninjahedge
October 17th, 2006, 11:12 AM
Music... you are starting to flood us again.

We appreciate all the information you are providing us about Turkey, but we do not need an entire transposting of a website here.

Pick one or two things a day that you would like us to know about, or talk about, and you might get some responses.

But post 15 articles a day and you will not get anyone to read them.

Better yet, try and post some articles about Turkish ARCHITECTURE or current construction. You might get some more responses (see World Architecture subforum).

musicial
October 17th, 2006, 11:25 AM
ninjahedge, sure you are right. it's okey

musicial
October 20th, 2006, 06:20 AM
Brussels strives to keep Turkey membership talks on track

By Daniel Dombey in Brussels
Published: October 20 2006 03:00 | Last updated: October 20 2006 03:00

Brussels is seeking to keep Turkey's membership talks with the European Union alive, even though it is widely expected that Ankara will fail to meet an EU deadline to open up its trade.
Next month the European Commission is set to recommend that the negotiations should be partially suspended if Ankara continues to refuse to open its ports to ships from Cyprus this year, as the EU has demanded.
The alternative would be a complete suspension. Many diplomats fear that would plunge Ankara's membership bid - and everything it symbolises for Europe's accommodation with the Muslim world - into a crisis from which it would be virtually impossible to recover
"We've had several crises over the Turkey negotiations in the past," said an EU diplomat. "But this time, more than in the past, no one is sure whether there will be a deal in the end."
The main hope of avoiding a crisis is a compromise put forward by the Finnish presidency of the EU. This would give the EU control of a port in northern Cyprus, the United Nations responsibility for a neighbouring town and begin to open Turkish ports to Cypriot ships. But Turkey and Cyprus, which do not have diplomatic relations, have appeared reluctant to accept the deal. Many Brussels diplomats expect the dispute to dominate EU affairs up to and including the bloc's December summit.
Cyprus has, in effect, halted the talks by vetoing any attempt to open or close individual areas of negotiations, known as chapters. So far, the membership talks, which began in October last year, have dealt with only one of 35 negotiating chapters.
Yiorgos Lillikas, Cypriot foreign minister, told Financial Times Deutschland, the FT's sister paper, this week that without access to Turkish ports or airports, "we are not going to be in a position to accept the opening, closing or setting of benchmarks of any further negotiating chapters".
Unless, the two sides agree a deal, officials say the Commission will probably recommend that the EU hold off parts of the membership negotiations directly related to Turkey's failure to open its ports - such as transport, the customs union and the free movement of goods.
Cyprus believes the talks should be completely suspended if Turkey fails to open its ports.
At the heart of the dispute is the division of the island, after a 1974 Turkish invasion, into Turkish Cypriot north and the Greek Cypriot south. The south's government is internationally recognised and now a member of the EU.
Turkish Cypriots argue that the Finnish proposal is inadequate because it would not permit air links between the north and the rest of the EU. The Cypriot government says Greek Cypriots should have the right of return to the town of Varosha, which the proposal would put under the UN's authority.
The impasse is all the more serious for Turkey's membership hopes because many EU governments are unhappy with Ankara for not doing more to pursue the reform agenda the EU has drawn up for it, particularly for freedom of expression.
During previous crises the EU's big powers have acted together to keep Turkey's candidacy alive, but this time French diplomats say that they are unlikely to invest time or political capital in keeping the talks alive.
In the event that the compromise fails, the Commission is prepared to argue that a full suspension of Turkey's membership talks would be contrary to EU law.
The Commission's lawyers advise that a complete suspension can be ordered only for "a serious and persistent breach" of liberty, democracy, human rights and the rule of law, as in the case of a military coup.
However, Commission officials fear that Turkey's candidacy could still be consigned to limbo at the December summit, with neither a clear decision to halt the talks nor any success on persuading Cyprus to lift its veto to allow future progress.
Copyright (http://www.ft.com/servicestools/help/copyright) The Financial Times Limited 2006

musicial
October 20th, 2006, 06:34 AM
guys, I want to mention about one other very important thing against EU.

An Invisible hand from EU tries always to shut the industrial firms down in Turkey. They are always organizing some people around Green-Peace and make demonstrations around large firms in Turkey.... The latest example is that there is an AMERICAN FIRM "CARGILL" in Turkey. Everbody knows this firm. This firm due to the organisations of this invisible hand of EU is under the danger of being shut down now. Turkey is the biggest 17th industrialized country and USA is the heavist investor of Turkey. Thank you USA.

I think that EU does it's best to stop Turkey's developments.... but they would never be successful. they think that they are playing with a third world country. they are still blind.... the people from Turkey are just laughting at this situation....

musicial
October 20th, 2006, 11:32 AM
I am going to give you some examples of how EU accuse Turkey of being not democratic, as if Turkey does not respect to human rights etc. etc. etc.

1) there are some areas where are gold-reserves in Turkey. Some firms tried to get this gold and started working. After then lots of environmental organizations had accused these firms of causing environmental pollution and they should had been shut down... Since years demonstrations had continued. After then one day a turkish press agent announced that MIT-turkish central information organization (like CIA in USA) had had enough evidences that under all these organisations there were the finger of Germany's deep State via Conrad Adenauer foundations in Turkey. Turkey had talked about these theme at high levels on some channels. After a couple of days german high officials had come to Turkey and then all were in silence and then this theme had been closed silently. now Turkey always checks with all foreign foundations in Turkey but EU as a whole accuse Turkey of making undemocratic applications to these cultural foundations.

2) By the way, as the last minute news AN AMERICAN COMPANY "CARGILL" (it/s row meterial is corn) HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN now. (in Bursa, Turkey) Since some times some organisations have been demonstrating against this factories. Finally they succeed in... I do not know whether it is a temporary or permanent situation....

3) Some ethnic people in Turkey are making hard ethnicity. they want to go to school in other languages for example, they want the State to speak other minority languages. And EU supports and gives power to these people. However nobody can speak another languages in official offices in European States. For example a German (with greek ethnicity) living in Germany cannot demand his language being spoken in official writings of State, Germany says automatically here is Germany and German is spoken here. There is the same situation in Turkey, everbody can speak every language in his private life, on streets etc. etc. but officially Turkish is the State's official language in Turkey. However, EU accuses Turkey of being an undemocratic State in this respect,too.

4)
5)
...
...
...
etc.

As you see, there are lots of things bothering the turkish public related to EU's unfair manners. You listened to Turkey-EU Story also from Turkey's side....

musicial
October 22nd, 2006, 07:03 AM
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korean-war-strategy.JPG
KOREAN WAR: Turkish Brigade saved U.S. troops from annihilation
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korean-war-monument.JPG
for those who want to get wider info about it, visit this side
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/korean.htm

musicial
October 22nd, 2006, 07:10 AM
Echoes of the Kunuri Battle

"4500 soldiers in the middle of the firing line have known how to create miracle. The sacrifices of the Turks will eternally remain in our minds." - Washington Tribune

"The courageous battles of the Turkish Brigade have created a favorable effect on the whole United Nations Forces." - Time

"The surprise of the Korean battles were not the Chinese but the Turks. It is impossible at this moment to find a word to describe the heroism which the Turks have shown in the battles." - Abent Post

"The Turks have shown in Kunuri a heroism worthy of their glorious history. The Turks have gained the admiration of the whole world through their glorious fighting in the battles." - Figaro

"The Turks who have been known throughout history by their courage and decency, have proved that they have kept these characteristics, in the war which the United Nations undertook in Korea." - Burner - U.S. Congressman

"There is no one left who does not know that the Turks, our valuable allies, are hard warriors and that they have accomplished very great feats at the front." - Claude Pepper, U.S. Senator

"I now understand that the vote I gave in favor of assistance to Turkey was the most fitting vote I gave in my life. Courage, bravery and heroism are the greatest virtues which will sooner or later conquer. In this matter, I know no nation superior to the Turks." - Rose - U.S. Senator

"While the Turks were for a long time fighting against the enemy and dying, the British and Americans were withdrawing. The Turks, who were out of ammunition, affixed their bayonets and attacked the enemy and there ensued a terrible hand to hand combat. The Turks succeeded in withdrawing by continuous combat and by carrying their injured comrades on their backs. They paraded at Pyongyang with their heads held high." - G.G. Martin - British Lieutenant General

"The Turkish forces have shown success above that expected in the battles they gave in Korea." - General Collings - Commander US Army

"We owe the escape of thousands of United Nations troops out of a certain encirclement to the heroism of the Turkish soldiers. The Turkish soldiers in Korea have added a new and unforgettable page of honor to the customs and legends of heroism of the Turkish nation." - Emanuel Shinwell - U.K. Minister of Defense

"The heroic soldiers of a heroic nation, you have saved the Eighth Army and the IX'th Army Crops from encirclement and the 2nd Division from destruction. I came here today to thank you on behalf of the United Nations Army." - General Walton H. Walker, Commander, Eighth Army

"The Turks are the hero of heroes. There is no impossibility for the Turkish Brigade." - General Douglas MacArthur - United Nations Forces Commander in Chief

"The military situation in Korea is being followed with concern by the whole American public. But in these concerned days, the heroism shown by the Turks has given hope to the American nation. It has inculeated them with courage. The American public fully appreciates the value of the services rendered by the Turkish Brigade and knows that because of them the Eighth American Army could withdraw without disarray. The American public understands that the United Nations Forces in Korea were saved from encirclement and from falling in to the hands of the communists by the heroism shown by the Turks." - 2

December 1950, from the commentary of a US radio commentator The Turkish Brigade, as can be understood from the summary of the Kunuri battles and the echoes it produced in the world, had successfully accomplished its mission. The Brigade was proud to have informed the country of the news of success which the state and nation expected, at the highest level. A handful of soldiers had provided the state with power, great opportunities and esteem.

source: http://www.korean-war.com/turkey.html

musicial
October 22nd, 2006, 07:42 AM
With these latest 2 posts I aimed to show that with the membership of Turkey to EU, the ideals of democracy, freedom, human rights can expand worldwide easier than the current situation.

By the way, Iran President Ahmedinejad threatened on Friday obviously the countries (referring basically to Turkey) which support USA in Iraq. He said that all the countries will pay for it. I thought suddenly that Iran needs democracy urgently;) because President Ahmedinejad and other high authories in Iran always speak dictatively. Sooner on later democracy will come there, too... anyway! such a country under high pressure of radical Islam cannot or should no have nuclear weapons, too... :cool:

milleniumcab
October 22nd, 2006, 11:39 PM
You know something, I agree with Musical... Recently there have been a lot of negative news about Turkey... I think that's a punishment for Turkey not letting US form a northern front against Saddam in 2003..

And I don't agree with the notion that Kurds will be a better ally to US than Turks..So there, we are making another big mistake...Turkey have been an excellent ally in every way for decades and we should not sell them for a "Neo-Conservative Agenda"..A Kurdistan will be a dissaster for the region, including Turkey...

But you know what they say... "What are friends for" ..Right?...

musicial
October 23rd, 2006, 06:50 AM
You know something, I agree with Musical... Recently there have been a lot of negative news about Turkey... I think that's a punishment for Turkey not letting US form a northern front against Saddam in 2003..

And I don't agree with the notion that Kurds will be a better ally to US than Turks..So there, we are making another big mistake...Turkey have been an excellent ally in every way for decades and we should not sell them for a "Neo-Conservative Agenda"..A Kurdistan will be a dissaster for the region, including Turkey...

But you know what they say... "What are friends for" ..Right?...

milleniumcab, I am gonna write my comments from another side

1) That (not letting US from a nordern front to Saadam in 2003) was the mistake of AKP government, turkish army (in turkish democratic structure) needed to get a permission from parliament for war case, because turkish army wanted to see this right in hand in advance. at those times it seemed to me that PM (Mr. Erdogan) from AKP party could not be courageous enough to get this right from parliament. If he really wanted, then he could really get it because this party's deputies dominated the parliament in 2003 and are still dominating. I understand that there were also sub-reasons for this courageouslessness: a) EU (with the leadings of France and Germany) threatened Turkey obviously that if turkey deals with war (assists to USA) directly or indirectly then Turkey should forget EU membership permanently. To me it was a shame on Turkey that Turkey could not say "it's none of your business" against EU because it was a bluff by EU, EU is always talking about human rights, democracy, freedom etc. but is fencing Turkey which tried to assist to US for these ideals in Iraq... b) opposing parties in turkish Parliament made an unbelievable and discussting lobbies in Turkey. c) the big percent of the population in Turkey had been horrified in the sense that US was planning something bad for Turkey (personally however I have never had such a feelings). how and why such a perception has been situated in Turkey!?!? I do not have any idea. we can say that US could not do good enough at high levels in Turkey!!!! do not forget that there are lots of serious countries which do not want Turkish-American alignment. they are in charge!!!!!!

2) As for kurds(in Nordern Iraq), what a mistake and may be a confusion it is that US thinks of Kurds (in Nordern Iraq) as a potential ally:confused: . to me US officials must seach deeply about it! you say "a better ally than the Turks". you are comparing kurdish tribes in nordern Iraq with Turkey!!!!???? :confused: I say "kurds in Nordern Iraq can't even be an ally".

musicial
October 24th, 2006, 09:27 AM
1) turkish Public has no trust in EU.
2) the %age of the people in Turkey who are saying "Turkey should definitely participate in EU has fallen to 32.2 in 2006 from 56.5 in 2002.
3) the %age of the people in Turkey who are saying "Turkey should definitely NOT participate in EU has increased to 25.6 in 2006 from 17.9 in 2002.
4) Turkish public has no trust in EU with 78.1% and and trust in EU with 7.2, others did not give an answer.
5) Here is the real catasrophy: the question was "which lands are friends for Turkey, that Turkey has either in neighbourhood or allignment relationship with".

friend not friend no answer
France 2.8 76.1
England 3.2 73.2
USA 3.6 78.5
Greece 4.2 78.1
Russia 8.7 64.8
Germany 17.7 56.9
Iran 29 43.1
Pakistan 47.3 24.3
Azerbaijan71.4 11.1

Source:http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/24/siyaset/asiy.html

my comments about "why turks do have nagative opinions for USA": there are 75 millions of people in Turkey. This statistics results from a random sample and there can be a discussion about this statistics in the sense that this statistics shows biased results but we have to ask that to what degree this discussion can be valid! who are quilty for these results(it is impossible to think that such big percent of the people in Turkey are wrong with their ways of thinking or with their perceptions) . As an example, the PKK terrorist organisation is on the terror list in USA and in all European Lands. USA invaded Iraq, Turkey still supports USA logistically but yesterday PKK terrorist leader makes a programme for 1 hour on a channel broadcasting from nordern Iraq, making proboganda against Turkey, that was smelling blood!!! In Saddam times, Iraq was not a threat for Turkey but now nordern part of it seems to be a real threat and dramatically Turkey supported and still supports USA logistically in this war.

milleniumcab
November 29th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Pope Backs Turkey’s Bid to Join European Union

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/11/28/world/29pope1_600.jpg Dario Pignatelli/Polaris
Pope Benedict XVI at the grave of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, modern Turkey’s founder, in Ankara yesterday.


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By IAN FISHER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/f/ian_fisher/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and SABRINA TAVERNISE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/sabrina_tavernise/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: November 29, 2006
ANKARA, Turkey, Nov. 28 — Pope Benedict XVI (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/benedict_xvi/index.html?inline=nyt-per) arrived in Turkey on Tuesday armed with a surprise gesture of good will aimed at blunting Muslim anger toward him: he backed Turkey’s long-stalled desire to join the European Union (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/e/european_union/index.html?inline=nyt-org), reversing a statement he made two years ago.
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Pope Benedict XVI visits the Ataturk Mausoleum during the first day of his pastoral trip to Turkey.



Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/e/recep_tayyip_erdogan/index.html?inline=nyt-per), told reporters after a brief meeting with Benedict at the airport here that he had asked the pope to support Turkey in its attempt to become a member of the European Union.
“He said, ‘You know we don’t have a political role, but we wish for Turkey’s entry into the E.U.,’ ” Mr. Erdogan said the pope told him. “His wish is a positive recommendation for us.”
Although the Vatican (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/roman_catholic_church/index.html?inline=nyt-org) does not play a formal role in the European Union, or delve publicly into domestic matters of other states, the pope’s gesture was nonetheless a piece of political stagecraft at a delicate time both in relations between Muslims and the West and in Benedict’s own damaged reputation among Muslims.
Long before he angered the Muslim world two months ago with a speech criticized as equating Islam with violence, Benedict was disliked here because of comments he made, as a cardinal in 2004, opposing Turkish (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/turkey/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) membership in Europe. As the successor to the Ottoman Empire, Turkey had always stood, he said at the time, “in permanent contrast to Europe.”
But the 79-year-old pope’s concession on Tuesday, at the start of a four-day trip here, seemed to make good on his pledge to heal the wounds between East and West. It may also have the practical effect of tamping down anger here. Security for the pope’s visit was extensive, with helicopters hovering at the airport, commandos guarding the pope’s plane and sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings.
It is unclear what effect the pope’s reversal will have on the fraught debate in Europe over Turkey’s membership, especially among conservatives who share the views he expressed as a cardinal two years ago. Much of that opposition is rooted in the increased tension between the West and Islam, including fears of more terrorist attacks in Europe and the already difficult integration of millions of Muslims there.
Some of the tension, though, is tied to the difficulty Turkey has had in meeting Europe’s specific demands — and the pope’s visit comes at a particularly delicate time in Turkey’s talks with European negotiators.
Admission talks, which officially began this year, have hit a snag over the European Union’s insistence that Turkey open its ports and harbors to vessels from Greek Cyprus, an internationally recognized state opposed by Turkey. But Turkish officials say they cannot act until an international embargo that has been in place on the Turkish part of the island for more than 20 years is lifted.
Because Benedict did not announce his new position himself on Tuesday, the shift appeared to some degree to be a concession won by Mr. Erdogan — a deft act of diplomacy by the pope that critics said his speech two months ago lacked.
Although Mr. Erdogan’s government is rooted in moderate political Islam, he had said until Monday that he would not be able to meet the pope under pressure from his conservative constituency. As the leader of the only Muslim country in NATO (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/north_atlantic_treaty_organization/index.html?inline=nyt-org), he left immediately afterward to attend a meeting of the Western military alliance in Latvia.
Hours later, the pope’s spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, released a brief statement repeating that the Vatican has “neither the power nor the specific political task” of getting Turkey admitted to the European Union.
But Father Lombardi said the Vatican “views positively and encourages the road of dialogue and of moving toward integration of Turkey in Europe on the basis of common values and principles.”
It remains to be seen whether the pope’s gesture will have a warming effect in Turkey, or in the broader Muslim world.
In Ankara, residents expressed doubts about the pope’s sincerity. “It’s not support, it’s a lie,” said Hakan Ozgunaydin, a 29-year-old co-owner of a shoe shop in downtown Ankara. “I would expect him to say, ‘those bloody Turks,’ when he leaves this country.”
Merve Celikkol, a 21-year-old physics student, was just as blunt, calling the pope a hypocrite: “How is it possible that he changed so much?”
“This can be his way of confessing his sins for the wrong he has done to the Muslim world,” said Ismail Aytac, a 51-year-old sitting in a luxury watch shop. “After all, he’s human, and humans make mistakes.”
A number of those interviewed did say they thought that the new support was a decisive achievement for Mr. Erdogan, who has led the push for entry into Europe, at no small political cost to himself.
Benedict’s trip here is his fifth outside Italy since he was elected pope last year, and his first outside the European Union and to a predominantly Muslim country. His main aim is to visit leaders of the Orthodox patriarchy here, as part of his goal to mend the 1,000-year rift between the Roman Catholic Church and the 220 million members of the Orthodox Church.

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Sebnem Arsu contributed reporting.
More Articles in International » (http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html)

Pope Backs Turkey’s Bid to Join European Union


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Published: November 29, 2006
(Page 2 of 2)


But Christians make up less than half a percent of Turkey’s 72 million people, and it was clear that this trip would be far different from those to Christian countries, even before Benedict quoted a Byzantine emperor as referring to Islam as “evil and inhuman” in a speech in Germany in September. The trip to Turkey, though a modern and secular democracy, was loaded with symbolism: here, Christian and Muslim warriors battled for centuries, as the Byzantine Empire, founded by Rome’s first Christian emperor, gave way to Muslim Ottoman Turks who established their own empire and pushed deep into Europe.
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Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey, right, met with Pope Benedict XVI upon the pope’s arrival at the airport in Ankara.



After his plane touched down, the pope, wearing white robes, was met at the airport with a red carpet and a small honor guard, but with none of the fanfare of his other trips. Rather, small demonstrations protesting Benedict’s visit were held here and in Istanbul, which the pope will visit on Wednesday.
In brief comments on his plane, Benedict made clear that one of his chief aims was to stimulate a “dialogue” to bring Christians and Muslims, and West and East, closer.
“The scope of this visit is dialogue, brotherhood, a commitment to understanding between cultures, between religions, for reconciliation,” he told reporters before his plane took off from Rome.
Mr. Erdogan, who unexpectedly greeted the pope at his plane, spoke too of the need for greater understanding.
“We are going through a tough period when the culture of violence has been expanding and our world faces disaster scenarios like the clashes of civilizations and polarizations in various directions,” Mr. Erdogan told reporters after his 20-minute meeting with the pope. “Therefore, we need mutual understanding among different beliefs and civilizations more than any time in history.”
Over the weekend, the Vatican began signaling that it was warming to the idea of Turkey’s membership in the European Union. The Vatican has never issued a formal position on Turkish membership. In 2004, when the pope was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he said it would be a “grave error,” both he and other church officials described the remarks as his personal opinion.
The stalemate over Turkey’s bid to join the European Union has frustrated Turkish officials, who are smoothing their negotiating positions ahead of meetings with union members in December.
“Everything is just stuck,” said Namik Tan, spokesman for Turkey’s Foreign Ministry, said in an interview on Monday. “How can an elected government with all these restrictions over the Turkish Cypriots open its ports without any restrictions? This government has a public here.”
On Tuesday night, officials from the European Union met to set conditions for the future of the talks.
“Look, they said there would be a train crash,” Mr. Erdogan said at the news conference. “Now they say there is no train crash, but the train slowed down.”
After his meeting with Mr. Erdogan, Benedict visited the grave of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the secular Turkish state after World War I.
He met later with the nation’s chief Muslim religious figure, Ali Bardakoglu, who was among the fiercest critics of the pope’s speech two months ago, and Turkey’s president, Ahmed Necdet Sezer. Later in the evening, he met with members of the world’s diplomatic corps. At every stop, he stressed the need for greater joint efforts to end terrorism, war and misunderstanding.
“I appreciate the efforts of numerous countries currently engaged in rebuilding peace in Lebanon, Turkey among them,” he told the diplomats. “In your presence, ambassadors, I appeal once more to the vigilance of the international community, that it not abandon its responsibilities, but make every effort to promote peace and dialogue.”
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Sebnem Arsu contributed reporting

milleniumcab
December 3rd, 2006, 10:37 PM
Very interesting article in Newsweek Magazine about Turkey vs. EU...I agree with the writer, Owen Matthews, as he makes much sense...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16008893/site/newsweek/

musicial
January 19th, 2007, 08:37 AM
Hırant Dink is an Armenian-Turk. He is a journalist. He found the first paper in armenian language in Turkey. He is famous for his ideas about the armenian problem in Turkey. He was criticising Turkey very much in Turkey but outside Turkey (in USA, France, Armenia, in all over the world) he was a giant supporter of Turkey against Armenian diaspora's claim because he was loving Turkey very much.

An 18-19years old young man shot him today. Hirant Dink is dead. This is may be the ever biggest provocation in the history of Turkey. Till now there is no evidence about which mother f....r has done this criminal....

lofter1
January 19th, 2007, 10:26 AM
Armenian-Turkish Journalist Hrant Dink Shot Dead

http://www.agos.com.tr/images/hrantdink.jpg

bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aVEr2x9scyXs&refer=europe)
By Mark Bentley and Ayla Jean Yackley

Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Hrant Dink, the editor of Turkey's main Armenian-language newspaper who had questioned Turkey's denial of an Armenian genocide, was shot dead in Istanbul today.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan called the assassination an attack against "Turkey's stability.'' Turkish stocks fell after the shooting was reported.

Dink, one of the most prominent ethnic Armenians in Turkey, received a sixth-month suspended jail term from a Turkish court in July for
"insulting Turkishness'' in a 2004 article he wrote about the killing of hundreds of thousands of Armenians by Ottoman Turks at the time of World War I. Turkey denies that a genocide took place.

"This attack against Hrant Dink is against the Turkish nation's togetherness and peace,'' Erdogan said. 'A bullet was fired at freedom of thought and democratic life.''

The European Union has called on Turkey to halt the prosecution of writers and journalists for expressing their opinion or face a halt to its membership bid.

Dink was killed by an unidentified gunman outside his office in Istanbul's Sisli district, a spokeswoman for Agos, the newspaper Dink edited, said in a telephone interview.

"Whatever the motive, this is a despicable act,'' said Ilter Turkmen, a former Turkish foreign minister, in a telephone interview. "The government needs to find the assailant immediately.''

Just before his assassination, Dink had complained of death threats he was receiving from nationalists.

"My computer is laden with lines filled with angry threats,'' Dink wrote in a Jan. 10 article for Agos. He said he found one letter "extremely worrying'' and said police took no action after he complained.

Police have arrested two people in connection with the murder, NTV television reported. Police believe a male aged 18 or 19 may have killed Dink, CNN Turk television reported citing unidentified police officials.

Akin Birdal, the former head of Turkey's Human Rights Association who was shot six times in 1998 in his office by a suspected nationalist, called the shooting "an organized attempt by those who want to destroy Turkey's European Union aspirations to cast Turkey into darkness.''

Police in riot gear surrounded Dink's office in downtown Istanbul. Forensic teams were combing the pavement outside for clues to the murder.

Stocks fell as much as 1 percent in Istanbul following the attack after rising 1.4 percent earlier. They ended the day down 0.1 percent at 40,201.14.

(C) Bloomberg L.P.

musicial
January 19th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Turkish-Armenian journalist shot dead
Friday, January 19, 2007 GMT+2 18:20
A.A

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2743376.jpgTurkish journalist of Armenian descent Hrant Dink, editor-in-chief of Turkish-Armenian weekly Agos, was shot dead in front of his office building in Istanbul. Dink was attacked by gunman or gunmen while leaving the building on Halaskargazi Street. Dink died instantly at the scene.


Turkish police carry out their operations in Istanbul to arrest the suspect of the murder of Turkish journalist of Armenian descent Hrant Dink, editor-in-chief of Turkish-Armenian weekly Agos.

The suspect who shot Dink is reported to be at the age of 18-19, wearing a jean and a white hat. Policemen took measures to arrest the suspect in the region, subway and bus stations.

HRANT DINK

Prominent and active in various democratic platforms and civil society organizations, Hrant Dink emphasized the need for democratization in Turkey and focused on the issues of free speech, civic rights and issues pertaining to the
Armenian community in Turkey.

Hrant Dink was the founder and editor-in-chief of the Agos weekly in Istanbul, a newspaper published in Armenian and Turkish. He also wrote for the national dailies, Zaman and Birgun.

Born in eastern city of Malatya on September 15th, 1954, Dink moved to Istanbul at the age of seven where he lived since. He received his primary and secondary education in Armenian community schools and graduated from the Zoology Department of Istanbul University. He then continued his education at the Philosophy Department at the same university.

musicial
January 19th, 2007, 02:24 PM
first image of murderer of Hrant Dink has been depicted from a street camera record.

http://video.milliyet.com.tr/default.asp?kanal=3&id=3019&tarih=2007/01/19&get=19.01.2007

lofter1
January 19th, 2007, 04:12 PM
Hopefully they ^^^ have some cam shots of the suspected killer from the front & showing his face ...

Prominent Turkish journalist Hrant Dink
murdered in Istanbul

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2007/01/19/turk-large.jpg

usatoday.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-01-19-TURK-JOURNALIST_x.htm)
1/19/2007 2:01 PM ET

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Journalist Hrant Dink, one of the most prominent voices of Turkey's shrinking Armenian community, was killed by a gunman Friday at the entrance to his newspaper's offices, police said.

Dink, a 53-year-old Turkish citizen of Armenian descent, had gone on trial numerous times for speaking out about the mass killings of Armenians by Turks at the beginning of the 20th century. He had received threats from nationalists, who viewed him as a traitor.

Dink was a public figure in Turkey, and as the editor of the bilingual Turkish-Armenian newspaper Agos, one of the country's most prominent Armenians.
His murder drew international condemnation from Europe, Armenia, the United States and numerous media freedom and human rights organizations.

Thousands of Turks marched down the street where he was killed, blocking traffic, carrying posters of Dink and shouting slogans in favor of free expression.

The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said that in the past 15 years, "18 Turkish journalists have been killed for their work, many of them murdered, making it the eighth deadliest country in the world for journalists."

"Like dozens of other Turkish journalists, Dink has faced political persecution for his work and now appears to have paid the ultimate price for it," CPJ Middle East Program Coordinator Joel Campagna said. "Turkish authorities must ensure that this crime, like past ones, does not go unpunished."

In his last column for Agos, Dink complained that he had become famous as an enemy of Turks and wrote of threats against him. He said he had received no protection from authorities despite his complaints.

"My computer's memory is loaded with sentences full of hatred and threats," Dink wrote. "I am just like a pigeon ... I look around to my left and right, in front and behind me as much as it does. My head is just as active."

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in a news conference after the killing, vowed to catch those responsible and called the slaying an attack on Turkey's unity.

Erdogan said he had appointed top officials from the justice and security ministries to investigate the killing, and that two suspects had been arrested in Istanbul. The suspects were later released because they had no relationship to the crime, news reports said.

In an interview with The Associated Press in October 2005, Dink cried as he talked about some of his fellow countrymen's hatred for him, saying he could not stay in a country where he was unwanted.

"I'm living together with Turks in this country," Dink had said as he contemplated his trial. "I don't think I could live with an identity of having insulted them in this country ... if I am unable to come up with a positive result, it will be honorable for me to leave this country."

His friend Can Dundar, also a journalist, said he wished Dink had left, as he once promised to do in the face of threats, protests and legal proceedings opened against him.

"Hrant's body is lying on the ground as if those bullets were fired at Turkey," Dundar told private NTV television.

Turkey's relationship with its Armenian community is fraught with tension, controversy and painful memories of a brutal past. Much of Turkey's once-sizeable Armenian population was killed or driven out beginning around 1915 in what an increasing number of countries are recognizing as the first genocide of the 20th century.

Turks vehemently deny that their ancestors committed genocide, however, and saying so is tantamount here to treason. In the 1970s and 1980s, tensions were further inflamed as dozens of Turkish diplomats were killed by Armenian assassins seeking attention and revenge.

Turkey, which is 99% Muslim, and Armenia, which claims to be the first country to officially adopt Christianity, share a border, but it is closed and the two countries have no formal diplomatic relations.

Dink's body could be seen lying face down and draped with a white cover on the sidewalk in front of the newspaper's entrance. NTV said four empty shell casings were found on the ground and that he was killed by two bullets to the head.

A large crowd gathered around the shooting site as police cordoned off the area. Workers at the newspaper, including Dink's brother, who had also been put on trial in Turkey, could be seen weeping and being consoled by others near his fallen body.

Dink had been convicted of trying to influence the judiciary in 2005 after Agos ran stories criticizing a law making it a crime to insult Turkey, the Turkish government or the Turkish national character.

The conviction was rare even in a country where trials of journalists, academics and writers have become common. Most of the cases, including that of Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk last year, were either dropped on a technicality or lead to acquittals.

Fehmi Koru, a columnist at the Yeni Safak newspaper, said the killing was aimed at destabilizing Turkey.

"His loss is the loss of Turkey," Koru said. Dozens of other journalists, many of them friends of Dink, publicly condemned the killing. Broadcasters on CNN-Turk and NTV, two of the major news stations, called it "shameful," "saddening" and "embarrassing."

Dink had complained in a letter that he received no response even after complaining to authorities about threats of violence, NTV reported.

A colleague at Dink's newspaper, Aydin Engin, said Dink had attributed the threats to elements in the "deep state," a Turkish term used for alleged shadowy, fiercely nationalist and powerful elements embedded in the government and security establishment.

Turkey's Foreign Ministry released a statement quickly after the shooting Friday saying it was deeply saddened by the killing.

"The actor or actors will be caught in the shortest possible time and delivered to justice," the statement vowed. The Foreign Ministry offered condolences to the people of Turkey, its press, and particularly to the Armenian community and Dink's family.

Dink ended his last column by predicting that 2007 would be a difficult year, but that he would survive it.

"For me, 2007 is likely to be a hard year. The trials will continue, new ones will be started. Who knows what other injustices I will be up against," he wrote.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press

lofter1
January 19th, 2007, 04:14 PM
Turkish-Armenian editor murdered in Istanbul (http://www.cpj.org/news/2007/mideast/turkey19jan07na.html)

http://www.cpj.org/news/2007/news_images_07/dink.jpg

http://www.cpj.org/
New York, January 19, 2007

The Committee to Protect Journalists condemns the murder today of a prominent Turkish-Armenian editor outside his newspaper’s offices in Istanbul.

Hrant Dink, 52, managing editor of the bilingual Turkish-Armenian weekly Agos, was shot three times in the neck, according to the Turkish television channel NTV. Dink had received numerous death threats from nationalist Turks who viewed his iconoclastic journalism, particularly on the mass killings of Armenians in the early 20th century, as an act of treachery. In a January 10 article in Agos, Dink said he had passed along a particularly threatening letter to Istanbul’s Sisli district prosecutor, but no action had been taken.

musicial
January 19th, 2007, 05:09 PM
Hopefully they ^^^ have some cam shots of the suspected killer from the front & showing his face ...


I am sure that officials in Turkey will find the killer soon. The people in Turkey in all levels condemn the crime and they are in shock. thousands of people (I mean not armenian-turks but all people around) in Turkey are in deep sarrow and show their silent protests for this crime. The turkish armenian patriarcy says that nobody could damage our integrity and the unitedness with Turkey. Only Armenian diaspora started a hard proboganda against Turkey now. They will bring the so-called armenian genocide law to the front of American Congress on 24th April. They were promised by the majority Democrats in the Congress.

To me, it is a big possibility that Armenian diaspora is responsible for this crime. As an Armenian-Turk, Hrant Dink was just struggling for the democratization of Turkey and that is why criticizing Turkey inside very hard. but outside Turkey, as an Armenian-Turk, he was with no doubt rejecting the Armenian diaspora's LIES and defending Turkey hard. That is why diaspora as far as I know was hating Hrant Dink, Armenian Diaspora even don't want to hear the name of Hrant Dink, as an Armenian-Turk. because Hrant Dink was rejecting Armenian genocide in Ottoman Times. He was saying that this problem is not a genocide but an internal ethnical conflict btw. Ottoman-Turks and Ottoman-Armenians. Both sides damaged each other heavily at those times, he was always saying. And Armenian diaspora cannot stand hearing such things from an Armenian-Turk.

musicial
January 19th, 2007, 05:27 PM
http://www.sabah.com.tr/2007/01/19/im//F90EA93219CA0D4FBB912B73b.jpg
In his writing in "Agos" paper, Hrant Dink was saying that he was anxious like the soul of a pigeon. He added that he knew, nobody touches (give a damage) a pigeon in this country (referring to Turkey). http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2745918.jpg. Somebody gunned him down today in Turkey but who!? Personally I had sympathy for him.

musicial
January 20th, 2007, 06:44 AM
http://www.cnnturk.com/images/TURKIYE/KKKKhbr.jpghttp://www.cnnturk.com/images/anasayfa/TTTt11111.jpg (http://www.cnnturk.com/TURKIYE/haber_detay.asp?PID=318&haberID=289421)

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/258595.jpg

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2748185.jpg

http://galeri.sabah.com.tr/resimler/167/E18ECCD1EF3973449EBA9410p.jpg

http://www.sabah.com.tr/2007/01/20/im/3A286825D7EF224BB2E7BF70a.jpg (http://www.sabah.com.tr/gnd98.html)

this man is the suspected killer, with gun in hand, gun in waist, running to the crime place, running from the crime place, with other (eye)withnesses this man's photo has been given to the turkish and international press to please help to catch this man. telephone number of Istanbul police department: 0090 212 6362950- 6361253, e-mail address of the same place. 155@iem.gov.tr

musicial
January 20th, 2007, 11:41 AM
http://www.sabah.com.tr/2007/01/20/im//D977EAD7C39D814195D4CD42b.jpghttp://www.sabah.com.tr/2007/01/20/im//DAA1661DE8529D4F86A038FBb.jpg
thousands of people(turkish public) protesting the crime, answering to this crime "we are all Armenians", "we are all Hrants" as slogans.
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2748006.jpg
By the way, white cap of the suspected murderer has been found and DNA tests have already begun, says turkish media.

musicial
January 20th, 2007, 04:28 PM
the suspected murderer has been found and arrested for interrogation. what will come out now!!!

lofter1
January 21st, 2007, 10:58 AM
Hrant Dink murder suspect confesses

http://euronews.net/images_news/2101-midi-turkey.jpg
21/01
13:15 CET

euronews.net (http://euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_info&article=402172&lng=1)
January 21, 2007


The suspected killer of the Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink has confessed to the murder. Ogun Samast, 17 years of age, told police he had read on the Internet that Dink had said Turkish blood was dirty so had decided to kill him.

He said he did not regret the killing. Samast was identified after his father informed authorities that the suspect shown on television was his son.

The police investigation is continuing - six other people are also being held. Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan said he was pleased the suspect had been brought into police custody in such a short time.

The killing has shocked people across the country.

One man in Ankara said: "I feel happy the murderer has been captured as much as I feel sad at Hrant Dink's death".

A member of Istanbul's small Turkish-Armenian community said: "Our pain is so great because Hrant meant something to us. We Turkish Armenians living here are really scared by the assassination and we don't know how this fear will go away."

Flowers and candles now adorn the street in Istanbul where Dink, the editor of a Turkish-Armenian weekly, was gunned down on Friday.

lofter1
January 21st, 2007, 11:01 AM
Suspect in Hrant Dink’s murder:
I said my Friday Prayer and shot him

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2754465.jpg

hurriyet.com.tr/english (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5814002.asp?gid=74)
January 21, 2007

Ogün Samast, suspected of murdering Hrant Dink, Editor-in-chief of Agos newspaper, said in the statement to Samsun police following his arrest, “I shot him after I said my Friday Prayer”.

Hrant Dink’s murder suspect was arrested yesterday night in Samsun after his father recognised his son on camera footage and informed the police. Brought to Istanbul this morning, Samast was interrogated by police. Four other suspects were arrested in in Trabzon and brought before Istanbul police for questioning.

Samast admitted to murdering Dink in his first statement given in Samsun. This is what he reportedly said his statement: “I read the news on the internet. I saw that he said, ‘I’m from Turkey, but Turkish blood is dirty’. That is why I decided to kill him. I do not regret it.”

© Copyright 2006 Hürriyet

musicial
January 22nd, 2007, 05:19 AM
http://english.sabah.com.tr/2007/01/22/im/CC57E3D0BCEEC940B2A33FA9b.jpgMinister of Foreign Affairs invites the Armenian diaspora to the funeral

Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has sent an official invitation to the Armenian Diaspora representatives and Armenian religion leaders in the United States to Hrant Dink's funeral. The Ministry will cover all of the guests travel and accommodation costs.


http://english.sabah.com.tr/i/yildizlar2.gif

"Let's take a historical step together"
By order of Minister Abdullah Gül, the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has called on important representatives of the Armenian community around the world. The Ministry's invitation said 'let's take a historical step together and find solutions for this problem together in Turkey.' It was learned that all travel and accommodation expenses of those invited will be covered by the Turkish Government. The Archbishop of New York; Barsamyan has accepted the invitation. The Ministry has also asked Armenian religion leaders not to allow fanatics' provocations against Turkey.

Source:http://english.sabah.com.tr/

musicial
January 22nd, 2007, 10:29 AM
Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/

US-coordinated Turkish military action into N. Iraq soon
Reliable intelligence sources predict a US- coordinated Turkish cross-border operation into Northern Iraq against PKK camps due to take place most possibly in late February or early March http://medya.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2007/01/22/military.jpg It has become highly likely that the US will decide most possibly this Wednesday to allow the Turkish military to stage a cross- border operation into Northern Iraq in late February or early March to render both the PKK/Kongra Gel (Turkey's outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party and Kurdistan People's Congress) terrorists and their logistics in the region ineffective. But this operation will be limited in time, most possibly two weeks, and limited in depth - not too far into Iraq thus limited in geographic boundaries that the US will define. If Washington decides to allow Turkey, in cooperation with the US, to stage a cross- border operation this would also prevent any Turkish unilateral intervention in the region whose consequences would be catastrophic.
Well informed Turkish inte lligence sources told Today's Zaman that US President George Bush's senior advi sors from both the Central Intelligence Agen cy (CIA) and the National Security Council as w ell as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates are expe cted to get together on Jan. 24 to decide what to do with the PKK.
"That meeting will signify the US is getting closer to a dec ision over what to do with the PKK. By the end of this week we will know what Bush' ;s exact decision is following recommen dations from his advisors. It is hard to say n ow what the advisors will recommend. But a Tu rkish military cross-border operation coordina ted with the US cannot be ruled out,&quo t; said a senior Turkish intelligence source. A possible decision to allow the Turkish military to stage a cross-border operation in coordination with the US became a more possibl e option in light of the Iraqi government&# 39;s ineffectiveness in acting against the PKK based in several camps, including a major camp in the Qandil mountains in Kurdish-d ominated Northern Iraq, as well as the refusal of Iraqi Kurds to meet Turkish demands to n ot allow PKK terrorists to act freely in th e region.
According to Turkish mili tary sources, an area almost 20 to 30 kilometer s inside Iraqi territory off the Turkish bord er is controlled by the PKK, making it ea sy for their terrorists to infiltrate T urkey for attacks, mainly in the country' s southeast.
A possible Turkish atte mpt to stage a unilateral cross-border opera tion inside Iraq prompted Washington t o appoint a US Special Coordinator for dealing with the PKK, retired US General and former N ATO commander Joseph Ralston, last year in summ er. This was followed by Turkey appointing r etired General Edip Başer as the Turkish coor dinator for the same purpose.
Turkis h Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan rece ntly raised his dissatisfaction with the PKK coordination mechanism when he said it had produced nothing in rendering the PKK ineffect ive. This was followed by the first concre te step taken by US and Iraqi forces when they stormed the Makhmur camp in Northern Ira q last week. The PKK has long controlled t he camp stuffed with almost 12,000 Turkish fami lies of Kurdish origin who escaped from Turkey in the early 1990s.
Though the United N ations High Commissioner for Refugees (UN HCR) is responsible for the camp, in reality t he PKK has been using the camp to recruit youn g fighters and to meet its logistic nee ds.
While the US administrati on is expected to make a final decision ove r what to do with the PKK during its schedule d Wednesday meeting, Ralston is expected to visit both Iraq and Turkey later this month. He is expected to give the final touches to a possible Turkish cross-border operation in to Northern Iraq, intelligence sources said .
If the US decides to allow Turkey to un dertake a cross-border operation, this would s ignal Bush's awareness to not lose Turkey while losing hope with Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri El Maliki - blamed by Washington for not being effective enough in stopping sectarian vi olence in Iraq as a whole.
The US believes that Iraqi Kurds are not expected to cause any problem if a Turkish cross-border operation is coordinated with the US.

PKK congress to be prevented
According to Turkish intelligence sources, any possible US-coordinated Turkish cross-border operation is highly likel y to take place in late February. That would a lso enable Turkey to prevent the planned PKK/ Kongra Gel Congress in Northern Iraq to take place during the same time. Zübeyr Aydar and Murat Karayılan are expected to stand as candidates for Kongra Gel Presidency while Duran Kalkan, Cemil Bayık and Fehman Hüsey in are to become candidates for the presiden cy of the Executive Committee of this terrori st organization.
The cross-border operation is expected to be carried out by airborne troops supported by attack helicopters. Air strikes on PKK targets will thus be a le ss likely form of operations.
Operations will be window-dressing
Both the US and some members of the Turkish political leadership a re well aware that any Turkish cross-border operation would be window dressing for Turkey rather than achieving any long-term so lution to Turkey's Kurdish problem.
But as senior Turkish military officials of ten tell their US counterparts, if nothing has been done against the PKK in Northern Ira q the Turkish people will lose faith in the country's politically powerful mil itary. Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan, who intends to stand as a candidate during May p residential elections and with a general elec tion later this year, would support a Tu rkish military operation in coordination with the US to win the hearts and minds of the majority of the public which has tended to bl ame the US for increased PKK attacks in t he southeast because they believe the root cau se is Northern Iraq.
M eanwhile, though the Turkish military is aware of the dangers any military attempt to s eize the oil-rich northern Iraqi city of Kirk uk carries, a cross-border operation ag ainst the PKK, they believe, will be an intimi dation factor to the Iraqi Kurds.
22.01.2007
Lale Sarıibrahimoğlu

musicial
January 22nd, 2007, 11:00 AM
The murderer is not 17years old, he was born in 1990, so he is a 16 years old teenager. His mother says that he is abused, okey he is aggressive but he cannot organize such a crime,said his mother and added that he is not to think about such a crime alone but one of his friend said that the murderer had planned it for 4 months... additionally, murderer is also a man who had been expelled from his football club because of the behaviours that does not suit to a sportman. he spends his time mostly in internet cafe's etc. etc. he is also expelled from secondary school and plus he has no job, nothing to do.... etc. etc.

Source: a variety of turkish papers

musicial
January 23rd, 2007, 05:44 AM
http://english.sabah.com.tr/2007/01/23/im/073644FB43AE9445B4155DEDb.jpghttp://english.sabah.com.tr/i/ikon_yeni_haber.gif "You have not left your country my love"
Armenian journalist Hrant Dink is on his last journey. The first ceremony for Dink's funeral was held in Agos Newspaper building where he worked as the editor in chief.

Hrant Dink's wife Rakel Dink has made a farewell speech in front of thousands of people and said: "I am here with great honor and with great sorrow. You have left the ones you loved, you have left my arms but you have not left your country my love."


Thousands have marched after Dink's funeral car without shouting slogans or protesting his timeless death. The crowd was surrounded by great silence.

Rakel Dink's farewell speech has filled everyone's eyes in tears. Rakel Dink has quoted the Bible and said: "There is no greater virtue than sacrificing your life for others. I am sending off my love today. We will walk without shouting slogans, without disturbing the people around us. There is no other solution but to find the dark hands which create villains out of babies."

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2764018.jpg
remark: no reporter knows how many people have come to the funeral. but it is over 10thousands, may be 20000 may be 50000..... there is a discussing crowd in Istanbul.... one cannot see the beginning and the end of the crowd in Istanbul....

ZippyTheChimp
January 23rd, 2007, 07:57 AM
January 23, 2007

Thousands Mourn Slain Editor in Istanbul

http://graphics10.nytimes.com/images/2007/01/23/world/23cnd-turkey_600.jpg
Fatih Saribas/Reuters
Thousands of mourners gathered in the streets of Istanbul for the funeral procession of Hrant Dink.

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 6:19 a.m. ET

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) -- Tens of thousands of people joined a funeral procession Tuesday for Hrant Dink, the Turkish editor of Armenian descent who was shot to death in an attack most Turks assume was motivated by his unpopular views.

The mourners marched five miles from the Istanbul offices of Dink's weekly Agos newspaper -- where he was killed on Friday -- to an Armenian Orthodox church, carrying signs that said ''We are all Hrant Dinks'' in Turkish and Armenian.

His daughter Sera wept as she walked in front of his sunflower-lined coffin, carrying a picture of her father. Onlookers clapped in tribute as the hearse passed and tossed flowers from windows overhead.

The funeral shut down the center of Istanbul, forcing thousands to walk to work.

Dink's relatives had asked mourners not to chant slogans or to turn the funeral into a protest, but even so some shouted ''Shoulder to shoulder against fascism,'' and ''Murderer 301.'' The latter refers to the notorious Turkish law against statements considered an insult to ''Turkishness.'' Prosecutors once used it to bring charges against Dink.

Most Turks assume Dink, 52, was targeted for his columns saying the killing of ethnic Armenians by Turks in the early 20th century was genocide. Nationalists consider such statements an insult to Turkey's honor and a threat to its unity, and Dink had been showered with insults and threats.

Police are questioning seven suspects, including a teenager, Ogun Samast, who has confessed to fatally shooting Dink, and Yasin Hayal, a nationalist militant convicted in the 2004 bombing of a McDonald's restaurant. Hayal has confessed to inciting the slaying and to providing a gun and money to the teenager, police say.

The suspects also included a university student who allegedly ''inspired'' the attack, Hurriyet newspaper reported Tuesday. Police confirmed the report but gave no other details.

Prosecutors are investigating possible links to shadowy organizations that may have wanted Dink killed.

Turkey's relationship with its Armenian minority has long been haunted by a bloody past. Much of its once-influential Armenian population was killed or driven out beginning around 1915 in what an increasing number of nations are calling the first genocide of the 20th century.

Turkey acknowledges that large numbers of Armenians died but vehemently denies it was genocide, saying the overall figure is inflated and the deaths occurred in the civil unrest during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Threats and violence against Turkish editors and reporters are not uncommon. Well-known journalists commonly receive police protection and travel around Istanbul with bodyguards. Dink was alone when he was killed. The government says he did not get close protection because he didn't ask for it.

In a telephone interview several months before his death, Dink insisted he wanted reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia.

''I had no intention of insulting Turkishness,'' Dink told The Associated Press. ''My only concern is to improve Armenian and Turkish relations.''

He seemed to have achieved that to a certain extent in his death: Turkey has no diplomatic ties with Armenia but still invited Armenian officials and religious leaders as well as moderate members of the diaspora to the funeral. Armenia sent Deputy Foreign Minister Arman Kirakosian. Hajak Barsamyan, head of the Armenian church in New York, was also to attend.

''You have left ... your loved ones, but you have not left your country,'' Dink's wife, Rakel, said in an emotional speech in front of Agos.

She asked her fellow countrymen to consider how the killers became murderers.

''Seventeen or 27, whoever he was, the murderer was once a baby,'' she said. ''Unless we can question how this baby grew into a murderer, we cannot achieve anything.''

Hayal served more than 10 months in prison for the 2004 bombing of a McDonald's restaurant in Trabzon that wounded six people.

At the time Hayal said he learned how to make bombs from Chechen militants in a camp in Azerbaijan and told police he attacked the restaurant ''to punish the United States and its collaborators.''

------

Associated Press writers Suzan Fraser and Selcan Hacaoglu in Ankara contributed to this report.


Copyright 2007 The Associated Press

musicial
January 23rd, 2007, 12:24 PM
This was (the biggest!) one of the biggest funeral Turkey has ever seen. According to the police record more than 45000people have come to the funeral in Istanbul. Hrant is now sleeping in Istanbul where is the city he loved the most.

milleniumcab
January 23rd, 2007, 11:06 PM
My He rest in Peace....Only the good die young...

ZippyTheChimp
February 8th, 2007, 06:59 AM
February 8, 2007

Suspects in Journalist’s Killing Came From a Hotbed of Turkish Ultranationalist Sentiment

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/08turkey1.600.jpg
Lynsey Addario for The New York Times
Fishermen in Trabzon’s harbor. All eight suspects in the plot to kill the editor Hrant Dink came from nearby.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/0208-for-webTURKEYmap.gif
Trabzon was a cosmopolitan city before modern Turkey took shape.

By SEBNEM ARSU

TRABZON, Turkey — With fishing boats pouring in and out of a busy harbor, white minibuses crisscrossing in all directions and shopping streets bustling, this regional capital nestled on the Black Sea appears to be a vibrant city.

But beneath the colorful shopping malls filled with trendy clothes and chic cafes, the poverty, unemployment and lack of opportunity that afflicts many of Turkey’s cities is crushing here — especially for young people.

All eight suspects in the plot to kill Hrant Dink, a nationally prominent editor, came from nearby, and links to other ultranationalist crimes here are beginning to emerge.

Mr. Dink, an Armenian Turk who was an outspoken commentator on the country’s handling of minority rights and was once convicted of insulting the Turkish identity for an article he wrote, was killed on Jan. 19 in Istanbul. Ogun Samast, 17, a high school dropout who has confessed to the killing, was arrested with five others in connection with the crime. Five more people are in police custody in Istanbul.

The attack has caused a harsh examination in Trabzon of how the authorities handled early hints of this and similar crimes.

The government dismissed Trabzon’s mayor and police chief in the wake of Mr. Dink’s killing, and the Interior Ministry is investigating what might have gone wrong in the handling of an informant’s tips before the crime was committed.

According to NTV television, the informant, Erhan Tuncel, told the police about plots to kill Mr. Dink on four occasions in the last year. The first tip was passed along to Istanbul, where the police made inquiries, but the later tips were not, the television report said.

Other prominent crimes here have had a common motivation of extremism in upholding nationalist values. A local McDonald’s restaurant was bombed in 2004, chosen as a Western target, and there was an attempted lynching of a group of leftist protesters and killings of two professors from the local university and of a Roman Catholic priest, the Rev. Andreas Santaro.

But it was not until the police found personal links between Mr. Samast, the confessed killer of Mr. Dink, and Yasin Hayal, an ultranationalist convicted of the McDonald’s bombing, that a web of connections between various crimes came to light. Mr. Hayal is being charged with inciting the Dink killing.

Mr. Tuncel is a mysterious figure. He was implicated in the McDonald’s bombing but then was given his freedom to act as an informer. There are reports that he tipped off the police four times to the threat to Mr. Dink, but he is also being held as a suspect.

In addition, the fact that Mr. Samast and the killer of Father Santaro, a 16-year-old high school dropout, were both under age at the times of their crimes suggests that someone may have been urging young people to commit crimes, knowing that they would escape harsher penalties if caught.

But so far the police have not arrested any older or more established figures in these crimes.

For some of the city’s youth, the region’s culture of bravado and machismo seems to make a breeding ground for anger.

“Black Sea people are dynamic, restless, energetic and have strong heroic feelings,” said Adem Solak, a prison therapist who works with the youth who killed Father Santaro. “Their environment, built on a single culture without interaction with diverse ethnicities, creates a greater potential for reaction to social issues.”

Expressions of anger are easy to come by, as are defenses of Mr. Samast and the killing of Mr. Dink.

“I don’t think brother Ogun did wrong,” said Murat, 19, a university dropout who, like many interviewed, refused to give his last name, saying he feared police harassment. “We heard that the Armenian cursed our blood, which we cannot accept.” He and his friend Hasan, 18, chain-smoking at a cafe near the town center, said they had known Mr. Samast for years in Pelitli, the suburb where all three grew up. They praised nationalism with a religious undertone.

But Murat hesitated before saying whether Mr. Dink deserved to die. “If television earlier had said what a good person he was, like they do now, no, actually,” he said after a moment of reflection.

In Pelitli, a young man giving his name as Serkan said Mr. Samast was a troublemaker, but one who would have needed guidance to commit such a crime. “I bet he had no idea who Hrant Dink was,” Serkan said, “because he had nothing to do with newspapers or politics, but loved stirring up violence, starting fights on small matters.”

A colleague, who gave his name as Hamdi and said he was 21, went on from there. “What would you expect in a town where there are no social activities for young people, no job opportunities, and everyone around you loves to cause trouble?” he said.

The problem with Mr. Samast was not his politics, they said, but his failure to leave it to the government to defend the nation.

The city was populated by Greeks, Armenians and Abkhazians when it was a trading center, but after Turkish independence in the 1920s, the Greeks left, and Trabzon became overwhelmingly Muslim and Turkish. Since then the people here have been seen as having strong nationalist and religious values. Use of weapons adds another dimension to the pride of individual bravery.

“We cannot do without weapons,” Asim Aykan, a member of Parliament from Trabzon, said on NTV. “They are a special part of the culture of our society. We cannot express our joy without firing guns. That is the culture, which is beautiful but can also turn bad.”

On a cold and windy Sunday after Mr. Dink was killed, crowds attending a game at the soccer stadium here waved Turkish flags. One group opened a huge banner saying: “We’re from Trabzon. We’re Turks. We’re all Mustafa Kemals” — a reference to the founder of the modern Turkish state.

That was a rebuttal to the many thousands of Turks in Istanbul who attended Hrant Dink’s funeral carrying signs that read: “We’re all Hrant Dinks. We’re all Armenians.”

Nationalism of the former sort “embraces intolerance towards the other, superiority over minorities and not only fear but also hatred toward the foreigner,” said Professor Ali Carkoglu of Sabanci University in Istanbul.

The feeling is stirred up by global events like the war in Iraq, the Danish cartoons satirizing Muhammad and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Then there is Turkey’s ambition to join the European Union, which has brought many changes.

That long process has its ups and downs, said Melek Goregenli, a professor of political psychology at Ege University in Izmir. She said that it “helped bring unspoken thoughts to the fore, made them more visible, but at the same time made those who spoke out as targets for those who couldn’t tolerate free expression of thought and equal rights for everyone.”

But even in this city, there are people who try to revive the feeling of unity among ethnic groups that lived together for centuries. In a historic building once used as a prison, a local theater company performed an Armenian comedy classic the weekend after Mr. Dink was killed. There had been several sold-out shows, and the seats were sold out for that performance too.

But because of fears about security, the theater was empty, Necati Zengin, the director of the play, said in a sad and frustrated tone.

“What we have to understand is that if Ogun and others had been theatergoers, Hrant would have been still alive,” he said.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/trabzon-1.jpg
Boys in Trabzon, Turkey, played in front of the house of Ogun Samast, who has confessed to
killing Hrant Dink, a prominent editor and an Armenian Turk. Seven other suspects all came from nearby,
and links to other ultranationalist crimes are beginning to emerge.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/trabzon-2.jpg
Other prominent crimes in Trabzon have had a common motivation of extremism in upholding
nationalist values. At the Santa Maria Catholic Church, a priest was killed last year.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/trabzon-3.jpg
A woman checked listings at an unemployment office. The lack of opportunity in the city can
be crushing for young people.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/trabzon-5.jpg
Turkish boys at an Internet cafe. Expressions of anger are easy to come by among the city's youth.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/trabzon-8.jpg
A portrait of Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish republic, in the lobby of a theater where an
Armenian comedy classic was being performed.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/08/world/trabzon-7.jpg
The performance of the Armenian play had been sold out. But because of security fears,
few attended the show.

Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company

milleniumcab
March 11th, 2007, 10:44 PM
A very interesting article about Iraq, Kurds, Turkey and the USA..I personally think Michael Rubin hit it right on the head...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/397lgxzg.asp

ZippyTheChimp
March 12th, 2007, 12:49 PM
boundaries drawn in a boardroom have unintended consequences.How were the present day boundaries drawn up?


In a plan coauthored with former Council on Foreign Relations president Les Gelb, Senator Joe Biden, the Democratic chairman of the foreign relations committee, urges ethnic and sectarian federalism in Iraq, in effect breaking the country into autonomous Sunni Arab, Shia Arab, and Kurdish units.It is headed down that road, with or without our assistance. The only rationale left for the war is to prevent that from occurring. We can see how well that is going.

milleniumcab
March 27th, 2007, 08:36 PM
How were the present day boundaries drawn up?
That is exactly why they should not be drawn, again, with similar ambitions.


It is headed down that road, with or without our assistance. The only rationale left for the war is to prevent that from occurring. We can see how well that is going.
That will only create a region with constant wars for the future. That is perhaps what we want, to create consumers for outdated war arsenal which we must get rid off anyway...

ZippyTheChimp
March 27th, 2007, 09:03 PM
That is exactly why they should not be drawn, again, with similar ambitions.But if the present day boundaries were drawn up the same way the author is arguing against, then the boundaries we have now are a source of conflict. Saddam Hussein, like Tito in Yugoslavia, only suppressed latent hostility.


That will only create a region with constant wars for the future. That is perhaps what we want, to create consumers for outdated war arsenal which we must get rid off anyway...Whatever we (the govt) wanted going into this war, what is now going on can't be it.

milleniumcab
March 28th, 2007, 12:24 AM
But if the present day boundaries were drawn up the same way the author is arguing against, then the boundaries we have now are a source of conflict. Saddam Hussein, like Tito in Yugoslavia, only suppressed latent hostility.

Agreed.. But creating three regions, Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites, without taking into account the concerns of Iraq's neighbors will not work either. What about 2.5 to 3 million Turkmens who live in the region(especially Kirkuk) the whole world so eager to call Kurdistan..What about the PKK, internationally recognized terrorist group, who is launching attacks into Turkey and Iran..It is so obvious that the Kurds have greater ambitions than establishing their Federation in Northern Iraq. Their leaders come out and say it all the time. Internet is full of maps of greater Kurdistan that include lands in Turkey, Iran and Syria....Our leaders and leadres of Europe have all but recognized Kurdistan...I see that as a greater threat to the region than what is currently happening in Iraq....

ZippyTheChimp
March 28th, 2007, 07:02 AM
Kirkuk is within the present boundaries of Iraq. Whether Iraq becomes one political entity or not, Kirkuk will remain a Kurdish region with ethnic minorities. The problem of the PKK would have to be dealt with in either case.

milleniumcab
March 28th, 2007, 09:52 AM
Kirkuk is within the present boundaries of Iraq. Whether Iraq becomes one political entity or not, Kirkuk will remain a Kurdish region with ethnic minorities. The problem of the PKK would have to be dealt with in either case.

Kirkuk is not currently within the Kurdish region but it will be with the effort Kurds are puting into making sure they are the majority in the upcoming referendum for that city. Granted, in Saddams reign, Kurds were displaced from Kirkuk but not in the numbers that they are moving back today..Our government is ultimately deciding the future of Kirkuk by allowing this unproportional displacement of Kurds from other parts of Northern Iraq into Kirkuk. In the process many of the other ethnicities including Turkmens are being slaughtered or runout of the city..This is not sitting well with Turkey, Iran or Syria...

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 09:39 AM
Agreed.. But creating three regions, Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites, without taking into account the concerns of Iraq's neighbors will not work either. What about 2.5 to 3 million Turkmens who live in the region(especially Kirkuk) the whole world so eager to call Kurdistan..What about the PKK, internationally recognized terrorist group, who is launching attacks into Turkey and Iran..It is so obvious that the Kurds have greater ambitions than establishing their Federation in Northern Iraq. Their leaders come out and say it all the time. Internet is full of maps of greater Kurdistan that include lands in Turkey, Iran and Syria....Our leaders and leadres of Europe have all but recognized Kurdistan...I see that as a greater threat to the region than what is currently happening in Iraq....

To me Kurds in nordern Iraq should also have their own state in some way. In this point I am not an offending man. but Turkmens will not be inside this state in no way. And according to my knowledge, Kirkuk is not a kurdish city. Kirkuk is however a Turkmen city. Acc to me USA is calculating wrongly in this issue. if required, Iraq must be divided into 4 but not 3. kurds territory, turkmen territory, sunni arab territory and shia arab territory. This calculation holds. but the other calculation does not hold anyway.

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 09:50 AM
Kirkuk is not currently within the Kurdish region but it will be with the effort Kurds are puting into making sure they are the majority in the upcoming referendum for that city. Granted, in Saddams reign, Kurds were displaced from Kirkuk but not in the numbers that they are moving back today..Our government is ultimately deciding the future of Kirkuk by allowing this unproportional displacement of Kurds from other parts of Northern Iraq into Kirkuk. In the process many of the other ethnicities including Turkmens are being slaughtered or runout of the city..This is not sitting well with Turkey, Iran or Syria...

I aggree with you. Last week and the week before Turkmens in the city of Telafer were slaughtered by a complo-attacts. totally 78? turkmens were slaughtered. Turkey does not accept such things. Turkey supported USA's Iraqi invasion but not for seeing turkmens being slaughtered by kurds there in front of american soldiers. from the press I learned that if there exists even an independent kurdish state in nordern Iraq, it is reason for Turkey for war. today's USA government however sees an independent kurdish state and turkmens will be inside this state. This is not something unbelievable but also ridiculous or funny in the eyes of turkish public.

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 10:03 AM
Kirkuk is within the present boundaries of Iraq. Whether Iraq becomes one political entity or not, Kirkuk will remain a Kurdish region with ethnic minorities. The problem of the PKK would have to be dealt with in either case.

Kirkuk will not remain as a kurdish territory. kurds are an ethnic minority there. Kirkuk is a Turkmen city. There happened an unproportional replacement of kurds from other parts of Iraq into Kirkuk to change the demography of the city in unfavour of Turkmens there. May be you do not know but american army officials are meeting every week with PKK terror leaders there. USA's official politics isthat PKK is a terror organization but usa army officials are meeting with pkk leaders there. There are lots of news in turkish media with proofs. These days I HAVE STOMACHACHE, I have always been a man who had smypathy for USA, seeing Usa on it's own way alone without asking anything to it's ally (to Turkey) in Iraq even against Turkey disturbs me and the people like me very much.

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 10:21 AM
As far as I understand, during invasion phase of Iraq by USA, Turkmens in nordern Iraq also supported this invasion implicitly(there are 2.5-3 millions of Turkmens in nordern Iraq, they are speaking Turkish and they call themselves Turks or Turkmens). Because the Turkmens were taking their psychological power from Turkey, and because Turkey supported this invasion, Turkmens in nordern Iraq also supported this invasion automatically and did not get at the opposite side of USA and they did not show any resistance to USA, they however supported this invasion. but Turkmens are paying for it today. They were being attacted by kurds, they were being slaughtered by these attacks and USA army follows the situation silently, doing nothing to stop this situation any more. This is something unacceptable. I see these days that USA is conflicting with it's ideals, human rights, life freedom, life right (that were flourished in USA and extended to the whole West including Turkey) ect. etc.

ZippyTheChimp
April 1st, 2007, 10:32 AM
if required, Iraq must be divided into 4 but not 3. kurds territory, turkmen territory, sunni arab territory and shia arab territory. This calculation holds. but the other calculation does not hold anyway.Turkmania?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Iraq_demography.jpg


Kirkuk will not remain as a kurdish territory. kurds are an ethnic minority there. Kirkuk is a Turkmen cityDo you have a source?

From Wikipedia:

The result of 1957 census for the city has been reported as following: 178,000 Kurds, 48,000 Turkmens, 43,000 Arabs and 10,000 Assyrian-Chaldean Christians living in the city.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk

In the 1980s, Hussein removed 120,000 Kurds, Turkmen, and other groups from the region, and replaced them with Shiites from southern Iraq.

From what I've read, the population today is about 780,000, 350,000 being Kurds.

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 02:21 PM
DEMOGRAPHICS
Information regarding the Turkoman demographics has been kept secret for various reasons by the Iraqi administration. In accordance with the state’s assimilation policies no realistic and independent census results have been revealed regarding the Iraqi Turkoman population like the other ethnic groups. So far a census has been carried out five times in Iraq.
In the census carried out in 1947 the population of Kirkuk was 286.005 (5.9 % of total population), in the 1957 census 388.939 (6 % of total population), 473.626 (5.8 of total population) in the 1965 census, 495.425 (4.15 % of total population) in the 1977 census (during 1975-1977 the Kirkuk area was reduced from 19.543 km to 9.426 km). After the 17 October 1987 census was carried out the Iraqi officials only disclosed the general population as 16 million.
Because of the attitude of the Iraqi authorities all the statistical information published so far have consisted of unrealistic numbers; the ratio of Turkish residents has been shown as 2 %. That is why all the research and publications prepared by foreign researchers has been based on this false information available as research sources and especially encyclopedias. The interesting part is the fact that the calculations regarding the Turkoman population have been carried out amateurishly. Effort has been lavished to ignore a living entity. A simple mathematical equation is enough to refute the administrations claims with the information published by the Iraqı Minister of Planning.
According to the statistical estimates made in 1981 the total population of provinces populated by Turkoman was 3.467.269 which distributes as follows: 1.227.25 in Mosul, 402.067 in Selahattin, 567.957 in Kirkuk, 637.778 in Diala and 632.252 in Arbil. According to the same estimates the total population of Iraq was 13.669.689. Since the ratio of Turks in Iraq is 2% according to Iraqi publications, the number of Turks in the region of 3.467.269 was merely 273.393 which means that there is a ratio of 7.88 % in the area. In other words this means that out of every 100 persons in the provinces of Iraq populated by Turks only 8 are of Turkish origin. However, on touring the region, it is immediately obvious how far from the truth this number is. In fact it would be more truthful to claim the opposite in some provinces. It is a known fact that until the 1960’s 95 % of the population of Kirkuk was Turkish. However, in line with the Arabization policies carried out thereafter, tens of thousands of Arab families were settled into Kirkuk. In addition to this, the demolishing of Kurdish villages in the surrounding provinces contributed to the migration of the Kurds into Kirkuk. This is why the overwhelming Turkish majority in Kirkuk was reduced from 95 % to 75 % in the 1980’s.
If we calculate the average ratio of the population of Kirkuk with Iraq’s total population during the 40 year period from 1947 to 1987 we come up with the figure 5.19 %. This means that when the total population determined by the 1987 census is compared with Kirkuk’s population the figure should be 830.400. If the 75 % ratio is used to calculate the estimated Turkish population the result is 622.800. If the ratio is calculated according to the 1981 statistics (4.15 %) the figure is 664.000; if the ratio is calculated according to 75 % the number is 498.000 which means that the 2 % claim made by Iraq is not only discredited in the example of Kirkuk province, but also in the whole region.
Our claim is supported by a statistical calculation. It was determined in the 1957 census carried out during the Monarchy that 500.000 Turkoman were resident in Iraq and the census data published in 1959 displayed the figure as 567.000. According to calculations made, the annual population growth rate in Iraq is 3.296 %. Using the year 1959 as basis the number of Turkoman living in Iraq in 1994 is found as: n P1 = P0 ( 1+t) 35 P1 = 567.000 (1+0.03296) P1 = 1.764.029, which is a different method to discredit Iraq’s claims. No matter how hard the past administrations and the present regime have tried to conceal and minimize the Turkish population, the approximate total of the 300.000 strong Turkoman population living in the provinces of Kirkuk, Arbil, Mosul, the districts and villages of Selahattin and Diyala and Baghdad is proof that even the most pessimistic estimate places the Turkoman population well over two million.
Settlement Situation

The Turkoman who have been present in Iraq well over a thousand years, live in the center of the northern part of the country. Today the Turkoman are spread within the borders of Mosul, Arbil, Kirkuk, Diyala and Selahattin provinces and a few boroughs of the capital city Baghdad.
During the English occupation, W.R.Hay who was the political governor of Arbil at the time wrote in a book about the region: " There are some cities along a certain zone. The residents of these cities speak Turkish. This zone separates the mainly Kurdish region from the mainly Arab region. Kirkuk is a center densely populated by Turks. Before the First World War the population was 30.000. There are many villages in the vicinity of the city, where Turkish is spoken.”
In another area in the book the author writes; "Two important separate settlement areas worth mentioning in which Turkish is spoken are Arbil and Altunköprü. The latter is an island on the Küçük Zap river. The shores of the river are connected with two bridges ".
Al-Haydari writes in his book “Renovation of Arbil Castle” published by the General Directorate of Culture and Youth which is connected to the Autonomous region in Iraq: " (….) During the last period (Ottoman period) the Castle was the central district of Arbil’s well to do. " When describing the Castle he says: "The Arbil Castle remains in the center of the city consisting of three residential boroughs. These three boroughs are Saray in the east, Tophane in the southwest and Tekke in the northwest (...)" which plainly displays the Turkish side of Arbil (Turkish names).
Hüseyin Fadıl portrays Turkish settlement areas Kirkuk, Arbil etc. in his book " Mosul Problem" as follows; "(….) The Commission has determined that the settlers of these cities are originally Turkish. The most popular people here are the Turks. They speak Turkish within the family circle. The Commission has also determined that 5 of the muktar (headmen) in Arbil are Turkish, 1 muktar is half Turkish, half Kurdish and 1 muktar is Jewish. In addition it has been determined that the only newspaper printed in Kirkuk under the supervision of the administration is in Turkish and all official correspondence is carried out in Arabic and Turkish. The Commission also determined that the English political officer spoke Turkish, while he had no knowledge of Arabic or Kurdish. This same Commission also determined that Altunköprü was actually Turkish, with the exception of some Jewish families Tuzhurmatu was Turkish or Turkoman, 75 % of Karatepe was Turkish or Turkoman with 22 % Kurdish and 3 % Arab minorities and some villages had been inhabited by migrating Kurds.
Since 1957 the Iraqi administrations have endeavored to remodel the demographic structure of the region by changing the administrative sections of the Turks’ settlement region. In 1957 the Turkoman people had mostly settled in the provinces of Mosul, Arbil and Diyala. At that time the administrative sections were as follows ;

Mosul Province :
Central district with 3 connecting subdistricts and 209 villages.
Al-Şora 397
Amadiye 299
Dohok 226
Sincar 174
Zaho 256
Akra 244
Şeyhan 150
Telafer 198
(9 districts, 26 subdistricts and 2153 villages were connected to Mosul province.)
Arbil Province :
Central district with 1 connecting subdistrict and 223 villages
Kifri 3 243
Revanduz 3 252
Zeybar 3 124
Köysancak 2 142
Şaklava 3 176
(6 districts, 15 subdistricts and 1151 villages were connected to Arbil province.)
Kirkuk Province :
Central district with 5 connecting subdistricts and 520 villages
Kifri 3 318
Çemçemal 3 202
Tuzhurmatu 3 234
(4 districts, 14 subdistricts and 1274 villages were connected to Kirkuk province)
Diyala Province :
Bakıba district with 2 connecting subdistricts and 134 villages
Halis 3 171
Hanekin 4 213
Mendeli 2 84
Karahan 2 116
(5 districts, 13 subdistricts and 718 villages were connected to Diyala province.)
At that time Salman Beğ subdistrict was connected to Baghdad Central district and 33 villages were connected to this subdistrict. ´


source: http://www.kerkuk.net/eng/index.asp?s=menudetay&id=63

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 02:49 PM
moderator, I know the kurdish existence in nordern iraq, personally i am also defending that they must also have their own State, but there are also turkmens in nordern iraq of approximately 2.5-3 milions. I learn all these information also from turkmeneli TV, broadcasting from Kirkuk via Satellite. They broadcast in turkish language, because they are turks, they are sometimes also broadcasting in arabic language to explain the situation to the arab world, they are sometimes brodcasting in English to transfer the situation to the world. they are trying that somebody must hear their cry. they feel themselves that they are in danger, their life is in danger, their existance is in danger, they say that USA AS THE BOSS IN IRAQ NEGLECTS THE SITUATON. The turkmens in nordern iraq say that during invasion phase, kurdish people is heavily armed but turkmens were not armed. And now they are being threatened as being terminated by the kurds. the referandum in Kirkuk is the first step on this way. Everything will be furthered step by step, they say. As far as I understand Turkey is also aware of this game and say that turkey counts this situation as a war case. To me, usa officials today make their calculation wrongly. usa official must acknowledge the turkmen reality there too. I think if usa acknowledge the turkmen problem there will be no further problems in nordern iraq. there must also be a turkmen territory in nordern iraq and kirkuk must also be a part of this territory. these are the things they (turkmens in nordern iraq) either say or imply in turkmeneli TV. And seeing this information my ideas are being shaped in the way I wrote here.

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 03:14 PM
http://www.bizturkmeniz.com/opdatering/artikelBilleder/turkmeneli3.JPG
maderator, I've found the map where turkmen territory is coloured as blue. nord-east side of this region is the kurdish territory where kurds are living. but in blue coloured area turkmens are the majority, turkmens say. Write "turkmeneli" in google and click on pictures, then you could also reach to this map and other things. key word is "turkmeneli" in turkish language. I am still defending that Iraq must be divided into 4, if required. if not required Iraq must remain as one peace. but the situation seems to be that iraq will be diveded into some parts...

ZippyTheChimp
April 1st, 2007, 03:28 PM
moderator, I know the kurdish existence in nordern iraq, personally i am also defending that they must also have their own State, but there are also turkmens in nordern iraq of approximately 2.5-3 milions.I did not comment on the number of Turkmen in Iraq, or whether they should have an autonomous state.

I questioned your statement
Kirkuk will not remain as a kurdish territory. kurds are an ethnic minority there. Kirkuk is a Turkmen city.

Iraq in in flux, but estimates put the Kurdish population at 15-20% of the total, and in Kirkuk about 45%.

How can you call them a minority?

Is the map you provided from a Turkish site, like the "Turkmen Iraqi Front," which doesn't sound unbiased.

musicial
April 1st, 2007, 04:50 PM
I did not comment on the number of Turkmen in Iraq, or whether they should have an autonomous state.

I questioned your statement.

Iraq in in flux, but estimates put the Kurdish population at 15-20% of the total, and in Kirkuk about 45%.

How can you call them a minority? I did not call them a minority. in lots of places in nordern iraq they are majority, I assume. However, Turkmens (in nordern iraq) are saying that kurds in nordern iraq are using their majority power and they are further extending to turkmen majority places. And acc. to turkmens in nordern iraq kurds will also take the control of turkmen majority places to be able to make their territory bigger than they have. Acc. to turkmens in nordhern Iraq kurds do this with gun power, because they are armed but turkmens are not armed. that is the problem. Turkmens in nordhern iraq insist on that Kirkuk is a Turkmen city, not a kurdish city, in the last monhts, kurds from other places came to kirkuk and living in tents, they do not have any place, like a home or apartment left from Saddam Times, lots of people came to Kirkuk, who have never been to Kirkuk before. Such people have nothing to do with Kirkuk but they are registered for referandum for the Kirkuk's future so that kurds vote will be high at the result of referandum and kurd officials will say that "do you see the situation, kirkuk is a kurdish city". Some kurds in Kirkuk said on television that they are promised for money, nordern iraq kurdish administration promised them to give 10.000 dollars per person if they live in Kirkuk and that is why they moved there but nobody gave them money, they are living in tents in primitive conditions, no water, no home, no electiricity, no apartments etc. etc. etc. All I see lets me say that "Kirkuk is historically a Turkmen city Kurds were a minority there(in Kirkuk)" So why does this problem arise is because of the rich oil reserves of Kirkuk.


Is the map you provided from a Turkish site, like the "Turkmen Iraqi Front," which doesn't sound unbiased. That can be biased, that can be true. but where could I get the turkmens' opinions!!!!!!!! Please not forget that what deos the kurds in nordern iraq say or do could or probably would also be biased, Everybody favours his own interest!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the turkmen region may be reflected bigger than what it actually is or it could be exaggerated, I do not have any idea...... what I know turkmens exist there and they are extremely uncomfortable with kurdish press over them...... by the way, do not assume please that kurds in nordern iraq are the angels of that region and always saying the truth!!!
....................

milleniumcab
April 1st, 2007, 08:20 PM
Kurds are not going to burn the bridge before they cross it...They will wait until they are on the other side... The bridge is USA and the other side is "Independence"....;)

musicial
April 5th, 2007, 04:04 AM
Greek textbook divides public opinion

Tuesday, April 3, 2007

DAMARIS KREMIDA
- Turkish Daily News


The complicated and often conflict-ridden relationship between the Greek Government and the Greek Orthodox Church is once more a hot topic in Greece in what is turning into a war of words and ideologies over the new Greek history textbook for 12-year-olds in schools since the beginning of this school year. The textbook takes a less victimized approach to the war of independence in 1821 from the Ottomans and downplays the role of the Orthodox Church during that period. On Sunday, Greek daily To Bima, explored this aspect of Greece's (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69773#) political dynamics in the differing reactions of Minister of Education Marietta Giannakou and Deputy Minister of Education Giorgos Kalos to the fury the textbook has caused. The former, holding more secular ground has repeated time and again that the textbook will be corrected in certain areas, while Kalos, genuflecting to the Orthodox Church, has left all alternatives open, even the withdrawal of the book – something the Church is also requesting. On Saturday while at the coronation of a new metropolitan bishop, Greek Archbishop Christodoulos called the sixth grade [textbook (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69773#)“shameful” and explained that the reaction of the people was immediate. “In the face of modernists, the people take a stand and react when it feels it is in danger,” he said. He also said that that with this book the foundations of the people, as in the history and traditions of their land were in danger, reported Greek daily Kathimerini. In response to the criticism against the textbook that is devoid of animosity towards the Turks and exaggerations of martyrdom, Greek Education Council Chairman Thanos Veremis told the Greek daily Eleftheros Tipos that it was not correct to accuse the [Turks (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69773#) continuously. “Textbooks are not bibles, and therefore they can be re-written,” he explained. “Violence is an integral part of history, but there's no sense in continuously narrating it. That is not the aim of textbooks.” Since the publication of the book, certain factions of Greeks have petitioned for the book to be withdrawn or corrected, while a group of 30 Greek neo-Nazis burned copies of the new history textbook (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69773#) in protest in front of the parliament building in Athens in March. Academics, however, as well as the team that headed its writing, are standing behind the politically correct textbook. Most of the protests against the textbook have been aimed not at what it has included, but what it has omitted. Greek daily Eleftherotipia reported over the weekend that a CD-ROM with supporting educational materials has been prepared, but still has not made it to the classrooms. Perhaps opposing factions have been a bit hasty in its verdict. Box box box

Greeks plan to buy Turkish island: The Greek islanders of Lesbos are planning to buy a tiny Turkish island several miles on the other side of the maritime border in what would be an unprecedented exchange of real estate between the arch-rival nations, reported the Guardian yesterday.
Lesbos' 100,000-strong population has indicated it wants to raise the $22 million price tag to purchase the island of Garip, whose pine-clad interior is visible across the Aegean from the Greek island (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69773#). According to the Guardian, Ankara would retain its sovereignty over the territory after the purchase. Where diplomacy and military might have failed, commerce could prevail if the self-proclaimed Lesbians manage to pull off the "conquest" peacefully, reported the British daily. "Any Greek would want to buy Turkish territory," the island's prefect, Pavlos Voyiatzis told the Greek mass-selling weekly Proto Thema. "Especially territory of historic importance."

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69773

ZippyTheChimp
April 14th, 2007, 11:38 AM
I did not call them a minority. in lots of places in nordern iraq they are majorityYes you did. Go back and read your posts.


However, Turkmens (in nordern iraq) are saying that kurds in nordern iraq are using their majority power and they are further extending to turkmen majority places.Now you are contradicting yourself, and stating that there is a Kurdish majority.


Turkmens in nordhern iraq insist on that Kirkuk is a Turkmen city, not a kurdish city, in the last monhts, kurds from other places came to kirkuk and living in tents, they do not have any place, like a home or apartment left from Saddam TimesWeren't many driven out of Kirkuk by Hussein? Would you expect them to have vacant houses waiting for them?


Kirkuk is historically a Turkmen city Kurds were a minority there(in Kirkuk)"Give me evidence. All the information I've seen shows otherwise, now and in the past.


Is the map you provided from a Turkish site, like the "Turkmen Iraqi Front," which doesn't sound unbiased.

That can be biased, that can be true. but where could I get the turkmens' opinions!!!!!!!!I didn't give you Kurdish opinions, just posting data. Maybe you can't find your version of the data because it doesn't exist, except on a Turkmen website. That map you provided is ridiculous. The blue area is not a Turkmen majority, just areas where Turkmen live.


Please not forget that what deos the kurds in nordern iraq say or do could or probably would also be biased, Everybody favours his own interest!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the turkmen region may be reflected bigger than what it actually is or it could be exaggerated, I do not have any idea...... what I know turkmens exist there and they are extremely uncomfortable with kurdish press over them...... by the way, do not assume please that kurds in nordern iraq are the angels of that region and always saying the truth!!!Nowhere in any of my posts have I taken a position on whether the Turkmen or Kurds are the good guys. I'm just stating the reality of the numbers, which you seem to be denying. The majority population is Kurdish.

That does not mean that Turkmen, or any other ethnic group, should be denied equal rights, or driven out of the region.

That would be ethnic-cleansing. Where have we heard that before?

musicial
April 14th, 2007, 02:46 PM
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/modules/gallery/070414miting/default.htm

look at all photos in this galary, many hunderts of thousands have walked in Ankara to demonstrate that they do not want Mr. Erdogan (Prime Minister from AKP party) or even somebody from AKP party as the president of Turkey.... they (people on the streets) belive like me that Turkey is not a moderate islamic country. Turkey is Turkey. like Germany is Germany or USA is USA, USA is not a moderate christian USA, or we do not call Holland moderate cristian Holland or we do not call moderate cristian Brazil, Brazil is Brazil etc. etc. Likewise, Turkey is just Turkey. AKP party, today's ruling party in Turkey is an islamic tendenced party, there is a big suspect in turkish society that this party is converting Turkey to a maderate islamic land. if this party takes the control of the presidency of Turkey, Turkey goes back to a hunderts years ago. TurkeY DOES NOT WANT TO BE A MODELL FOR MUSLIM LANDS. the regime in muslim lands does not concern us.... That is not our problem... Today's Turkey President (Mr. Sezer) said yesterday that if this happens that would be good for all muslim lands but it would be a catastrophe for Turkey, because Turkey goes back to a hundrets years ago......

musicial
April 14th, 2007, 04:09 PM
[quote]Yes you did. Go back and read your posts. I do not need it, may be I typed fast and not in detail and that causes misunderstandings!


Now you are contradicting yourself, and stating that there is a Kurdish majority.

I do not contradict myself, kurdish is majority in nordern iraq. Suppose that there are 5 barber shops in a street. One claims that he is the best barber of the city, second barber claims that he is the best countrywide, the third says that he is the best worldwide, the fourth one says that he is the best of the universe. the fifth in this row claims that he is the best barber just of the street! So the meaning of what somebody does say differs in different contents..... So from this, I want you to notice that kurdish are the majority in nordern iraq (if we use nordern iraq concept). nordern iraq consists of many small and big towns. In most of the cities in nordern iraq kurdish ethnicity is the majority, in some cities, however, kurdish people are either minority or they do not exist there. Kirkuk is one of the cities where kurdish people are minority(till now what I have seen let me say this. As for population in nordern Iraq, the number of kurds is may be 3-4 times higher than the number of turkmens(I do not know the exact kurdish population there). THAT IS WHY ıf you say "nordern iraq" it is true that kurds are majority there but that does not mean that they are majority everywhere in all cities in nordern iraq. Turkmens are saying that kurds are moving from intensive kurdish places even to all small turkmens towns and kurds are becoming majority even in all small Turkmen's small towns, kurds have enough population to be the majority in whole nordern iraq, but they do this by moving or replacing their population (from intensive or full kurdish populated regions) to other regions in nordern iraq. you got it;) . if turkmens do not accept or resist to the situation, kurds do this with using their armed forces...



Weren't many driven out of Kirkuk by Hussein? Would you expect them to have vacant houses waiting for them?

Give me evidence. All the information I've seen shows otherwise, now and in the past.

it is true, we are speaking of numbers,not of facts. That is a fact, Saddam drived them out of Kirkuk, Saddem had also drived turkmens from Kirkuk, too. the problem here is that kurds are exaggarating the situation to take the administration of the city, suppose that saddam drived 10thousands of Kurds from there, kurds are saying "no, no, no", 250thousands of kurds had been drived from the city. I do not know exact numbers. Nobody knows it exactly, Kurds have fired the (title) deed office off in Kirkuk, so that there must be no proof left showing the exact number of kurd owned property there.

ZippyTheChimp
April 14th, 2007, 05:12 PM
I never said that Kurds are the majority in every single place in northern Iraq.

I said they were the majority in Kurkuk. Records show they were always the majority in Kurkuk, so Kirkuk is not as you say, historically a Turkmen city.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Iraq_demography.jpg

The red areas are majority Turkmen; the blue are majority Kurds. No matter how you look at it, the region is predominately Kurdish.

musicial
April 15th, 2007, 06:29 AM
The red areas are majority Turkmen; the blue are majority Kurds. No matter how you look at it, the region is predominately Kurdish.

This map shows a couple of city centres where turkmens are the majority. 1) There are however, many more small and big cities where turkmens are either the majority or the towns have a full turkmen population. 2) This map does not show the sorrounding free areas (hinterlands of the cities) of city centres,too. all the areas surrounding the cities where turkmens are the majority are marked with blue. these areas are marked with blue as if these free lands belong to the kurds. That is why turkmen territory seems to be some red points (or some small circles) in the map. this is the unacceptable problem from turkmens perspective. Looking at this map, that is why, lets the people say that kurds are the majority pulverisively in nordern iraq. Marking blue the map in this way, leads to a biased result in the way that kurdish territory seems to be much bigger than what it actually is and turkmen territory seems to be much smaller than what it actually is. That is the problem, I understand.

But I aggree with you in the sense that kurds in nordern iraq is the majority in general sense and to me their territory must be (I do not know exactly) 3-4 times bigger than the turkmen territory but this nordern iraqi blue coloured biggerness does not show the reality and that is why unacceptable from turkmen perspective. And Kirkuk is historically a turkmen city, where turkmen show turkmen graveyards belong to centuries ago, turkmen show turkmen ruins, monuments, some other historical things but kurds fail in this aspect........What did the kurds in nordern iraq do is that kurds flew to the city (after the war) and may be they changed the structure of the demography of the city (I do not know about it much) and now they claim that they are the majority in Kirkuk. Kirkuk is more important than any other city in nordern iraq, Kirkuk has RICH OIL RESERVES, ALL THE PROBLEM STARTS FROM THIS POINT. that is why kurds should take the control of the city whatever it takes, kurds think... but turkmens think that they did not give the control of the city whatever it takes....... I hope that real truth appears in peace.

I am gonna give you an example:
Tal Afar

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Tal Afar (pronounced /ta/ /la/ /fer/) (also Tal'Afar, Tal Afar, Tall Afar, Tell Afar, Tel Afar) (in Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic): تلعفر or تل عفر, in Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language): Telehfer, Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish): Telafer) is a city in northwestern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) in the Ninawa Governorate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninawa_Governorate). While no official census data exists, the city has been assessed to have a population of approximately 220,000 people, nearly all of whom are Iraqi Turkmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Turkmen). The population’s religious affiliation is split roughly in half between Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) Muslims and Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia) Muslims. While most residents do speak Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic), a dialect of Turkish is used nearly universally throughout the city.


Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal_Afar#Geography
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Tal Afar seems to be a small circle on the map!!!!!!!! no surrounding hinterland......

moderator, I have contributed enough about iraqi turkmen problem. If something new happens I write but I do not want to go into discussion about Kirkuk problem, I am concrete (but not biased in fovour of turkmens) that Kirkuk is historically a turkmen city.

ZippyTheChimp
April 15th, 2007, 07:02 AM
^
Kirkuk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk)


The time of occupation of the Kirkuk area by the Safavid Dynasty during the reign of Shah Ismail I in the 16th century AD is the time when the settlement of Turkmen in the area began. The Safavid tried to impose the Shi'a faith on the Kurds, in an attempt to replace the Sunni Muslim whom they did not trust. According to the Turkmen themselves, they migrated to Iraq during the Umayyads and Abbasid eras because they were in demand by these rulers as a result of their prowess in battle.


The Ottoman encyclopaedist Shamsaddin Sami, author of the Qamus al-A’lam (قاموس الأعلام) published in Istanbul in 1897, following describing the city states: Three quarters of the inhabitants of Kirkuk are Kurds and the rest are Turcomans, Arabs, and others. Seven hundred and sixty Jews and 460 Chaldeans also reside in the city. [


The result of 1957 census for the city has been reported as following: 178,000 Kurds, 48,000 Turkmens, 43,000 Arabs and 10,000 Assyrian-Chaldean Christians living in the city.

agoldman
April 25th, 2007, 04:51 PM
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html?id=9083
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html?id=9084
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html?id=9060&skip=15#comments

The Kurds and the KGB
The secret history of the Barzani dynasty
by Dr. Kamal Said Qadir
Mustafa Barzani, the legendary Kurdish leader, was a KGB agent code-named "RAIS," and the Kurdish armed revolution he started Sept. 11, 1961, was in reality a KGB covert action to destabilize Western interests in the Middle East and put additional pressure on the Kassim government of Iraq.
Whoever dares to mention these facts publicly in Kurdistan would face an unknown fate, possibly forced disappearance or even murder by sophisticated means, and the whole story of KGB-Barzani ties would be dismissed as reckless defamation by the ruling Barzani family.
Unfortunately for the Barzani family, these facts are not the creation of some individuals, but the contents of KGB documents that recently became accessible to scholars and the public, or found their way to the West with defected KGB officers after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
This paper relies on two main documentary sources on KGB-Barzani ties. The first is the archive of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which also contains the correspondence between the KGB and the Central Committee. The most important documents mentioned in this article go back to 1961, the peak of the Cold War.
The second source is the so-called Mitrokhin archive, which was smuggled to the West by the defected KGB officer Vasili Mitrokhin after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
In addition to the KGB archive, this paper also relies on the memoirs written by former KGB officers, which refer to Barzani and the Kurdish conflict. These include the memoirs of the former KGB Maj. Gen. Pavel Sudoplatov, who was the head of the SMERSH, a special department within the Soviet security services responsible for special operations broad.
Some scholars have conducted valuable research on KGB history using publicly accessible KGB archives. The most important research paper I was able to find in this regard was delivered by Vladislav M. Zubok, a visiting scholar of the National Security Archive in Washington, D.C., and can be found here.
The aim of the current paper on Barzani-KGB ties is simply the search for the truth in the public interest. The Barzani family has established a brutal and corrupt feudal political system in Iraqi Kurdistan under the pretext that they led the Kurdish revolution. It is time to tell them the truth and remind them that the Kurds are freedom-loving people and will never accept feudal rule. The Barzani family has misused the trust of Kurdish people and become increasingly oligarchic, with the aim of self-enrichment by illegal means and a monopoly on political power. Murder, torture, abductions, and intimidation are among the main methods the family uses to silence its opponents.
My own abduction by the Parastin, the secret service of the Barzani family, on Oct. 26, 2005, in Arbil, Kurdistan, for publishing some articles criticizing the corrupt rule of the Barzanis, and my subsequent release under international pressure, are further evidence that the arbitrary power of the family is decreasing.
The great international support for my case was based on the recognition that the truth should not be silenced.
Therefore, I see it as my duty to continue searching for the truth.
Barzani and the KGB, Old Friends
After the collapse of the Kurdish republic of Mahabad in December 1946, Mustafa Barzani made his way to the Soviet border with several hundred of his men. After arriving in the Soviet Union, he received much attention from the Soviet leadership and security services, who wanted to use the Kurds for their own ends.
The first period of Barzani's political activities in the Soviet Union would have probably remained secret without the memoirs of the KGB's Sudoplatov, who later became the head of the SMERSH. Sudoplatov writes that he had met Barzani for the first time in Baku, shortly after Barzani's arrival in the Soviet Union in 1947, with the aim of using him to destabilize Western interests in the Middle East. Barzani and his men were to receive arms and military training in order to be sent back to Iraq for this purpose, according to Sudoplatov.
Barzani must have been of extraordinary importance to the Soviets to be cultivated by Sudoplatov, one of the most important figures within the security services. Sudoplatov mentions in his memoirs that he was responsible for the assassination of Trotsky on Stalin's order, and for the atomic espionage that led to the building of the Soviet atom bomb.
That Sudoplatov led negotiations with Barzani is evidence of the great expectations the Soviet leadership had for Barzani. But Sudoplatov was apparently not the only Soviet officer to deal with Barzani, as Sudoplatov mentions other officers who succeeded him in dealing with Barzani. Sudoplatov met Barzani for the second time in 1952 to negotiate with him on military training, but doesn't mention any agreement reached between them. He met Barzani again in 1953 at a military academy in Moscow, where both of them underwent military training. Barzani was apparently being prepared for a special task abroad.
Sudoplatov reveals in his memoirs that Barzani told him then that the ties between his family and Russia were a hundred years old and that his family had appealed to Russia for help before and received arms and ammunition from Russia 60 times. There are indeed other confidential reports on a visit to Russia made by Sheikh Abdul Salam, the sheikh of Barzan, before the First World War, though I know of no other Barzani-Russian ties before WWI.
The nature of relations between Mustafa Barzani and the Soviets during the period of 1947-1958 has remained until now largely secret, with the exception of the Sudoplatov memoirs. The Mitrokhin archive and the publicly accessible KGB archive make no mention of this period, but do deliver essential information on Barzani-KGB ties after 1958.
From the Mitrokhin archive we learn that the KGB gave Barzani the code name "RAIS," and both the Mitrokhin and the KGB archives of the Central Committee of the CPSU reveal the big secret behind the Kurdish revolution of September 1961 led by Barzani. According to these archives, this was not a real revolution but a covert action by the KGB to destabilize Western interests in the Middle East.
Aleksandr Shelepin, KGB chief in the 1960s, in 1961 sent a memorandum to Nikita Khrushchev containing plans "to cause uncertainty in government circles of the USA, England, Turkey, and Iran about the stability of their positions in the Middle and Near East." He offered to use old KGB connections with the chairman of the Democratic Party of Kurdistan, Mustafa Barzani, "to activate the movement of the Kurdish population of Iraq, Iran, and Turkey for creation of an independent Kurdistan that would include the provinces of the aforementioned countries." Barzani was to be provided with the necessary aid in arms and money. "Given propitious developments," noted Shelepin with foresight, "it would become advisable to express the solidarity of the Soviet people with this movement of the Kurds."
"The movement for the creation of Kurdistan," he predicted, "will evoke serious concern among Western powers and first of all in England regarding [their access to] oil in Iraq and Iran, and in the United States regarding its military bases in Turkey. All that will create also difficulties for [Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abdul Karim] KASSIM who has begun to conduct a pro-Western policy, especially in recent time." Shelepin also proposed an initiative to entice Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, a Third World leader avidly courted by both East and West, into throwing his support behind the Kurds. Shelepin suggested informing Nasser "through unofficial channels" that, in the event of a Kurdish victory, Moscow "might take a benign look at the integration of the non-Kurdish part of Iraqi territory with the UAR" – the United Arab Republic, a short-lived union of Egypt and Syria reflecting Nasser's pan-Arab nationalism – "on the condition of NASSER's support for the creation of an independent Kurdistan." (Shelepin to Khrushchev, July 29, 1961, in St.-191/75gc, Aug. 1, 1961, TsKhSD, fond 4, opis 13, delo 81, ll. 131-32 [see Zubok, 21])
When a Kurdish rebellion indeed broke out in Iraqi Kurdistan in September 1961, the KGB quickly responded with additional proposals to exploit the situation. KGB Deputy Chairman Peter Ivashutin proposed – "In accord with the decision of the CC CPSU … of 1 August 1961 on the implementation of measures favoring the distraction of the attention and forces of the USA and her allies from West Berlin, and in view of the armed uprisings of the Kurdish tribes that have begun in the North of Iraq" – to:
1. use the KGB to organize pro-Kurdish and anti-Kassim protests in India, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Guinea, and other countries;
2. have the KGB meet with Barzani to urge him to "seize the leadership of the Kurdish movement in his hands and to lead it along the democratic road," and to advise him to "keep a low profile in the course of this activity so that the West did not have a pretext to blame the USSR in meddling into the internal affairs of Iraq"; and
3. assign the KGB to recruit and train a "special armed detachment (500-700 men)" drawn from Kurds living in the USSR in the event that Moscow might need to send Barzani "various military experts (Artillerymen, radio operators, demolition squads, etc.)" to support the Kurdish uprising. ( P. Ivashutin to CC CPSU, Sept. 27, 1961, St.-199/10c, Oct. 3, 1961, TsKhSD, fond 4, opis 13, delo 85, ll. 1-4 [see Zubok, 21])
What Ivashutin did not know was that the West already had information on Barzani's special ties with the Soviet Union. U.S. officials had noted with concern the possibility "that Barzani might be useful to Moscow." In an October 1958 cable to the State Department, three months after a military coup brought Kassim to power, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Waldemar J. Gallman, stated that "Communists also have potential for attack [on Iraqi Prime Minister Kassim] on another point through returned Kurdish leader Mulla Mustafa Barzani. He spent last eleven years in exile in Soviet Union. His appeal to majority of Iraqi Kurds is strong and his ability [to] disrupt stability almost endless. Thus we believe that today greatest potential threat to stability and even existence of Qassim's [Kassim's] regime lies in hands of Communists." (Gallman to Department of State, Oct. 14, 1958, in U.S. Department of State, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958-1960, Vol. XII, Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1993, pp. 344-46 [see Zubok, 21])
Thus did the Kurdish conflict become an instrument in the hands of Moscow to exercise pressure on successive Iraqi regimes. According to the Mitrokhin archive, the KGB sent Yevgeny Primakov, code-named "MAKS," to Iraq in the 1960s under the cover of a journalist. Primakov was to later play a leading role in Kurdish affairs, especially in the conclusion of the autonomy agreement between the Kurdistan Democratic Party and the Iraqi regime in March 1970. The Ba'athists had to accept the Soviet conditions in return for the mediation, since the Iraqi army was completely exhausted from fighting with the Kurds. The Iraqi regime had to ease pressure on the Iraqi Communist Party and establish close ties with the Soviet Union.
After the March agreement, the Iraqi regime gained strength with Soviet support and began to obstruct the implementation of the March agreement. And the Soviet Union, having successfully used the Kurdish card to influence Iraqi foreign policy, turned its back on the Kurds. Barzani in turn moved closer to the CIA, Mossad, and Savak. The Iraqi-Soviet honeymoon lasted until the collapse of the Kurdish uprising after it was betrayed by its Western allies and Iran in 1975. After this date, the Iraqi regime resumed its oppressive policies toward the Iraqi Communist Party and began to draw closer to the West. The Soviet Union resumed its use of the Kurdish card.
Since that time, history has repeated itself several times, and the Barzani family has often changed allegiances among the KGB, the CIA, and the Mossad. The drama continues.

----------------------------------------
Dr. Kamal Said Qadir is a Kurdish human rights activist with Austrian citizenship. He immigrated to Austria in 1978 and studied law at the Vienna School of Law. He has taught at the University of Suleimani (1998-99) and Salahaddin University in Arbil, Kurdistan (1999-2000). He was arrested in October 2005 for writing articles criticizing Iraqi Kurdistan regional president Massoud Barzani and sentenced to 30 years imprisonment for defaming the Kurdish cause. The sentence was widely condemned by Amnesty International, Reporters Without Borders, and others. He was released from custody on Jan. 25, 2006, as a result of efforts by the Austrian foreign ministry.

milleniumcab
May 8th, 2007, 05:04 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/07/AR2007050701524.html?hpid=moreheadlines

milleniumcab
May 13th, 2007, 01:26 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/13/AR2007051300219.html

milleniumcab
May 29th, 2007, 02:07 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-turkey-usa-warplanes.html

We went thousands of miles to protect us from terrorists. In Iraq's case it wasn't even terrorism, it was pure greed... I believe Turkey has every right to protect her citizens from the terror group (PKK) which has killed tens of thousands of Turkish Citizens in the last 3 decades and continue doing so to this day..I do believe with all my heart that we have to give our full support to our Nato Ally and help them crush PKK for good..This will not happen by invading Turkey's airspace... May god protect us from making another stupid mistake.....

milleniumcab
May 30th, 2007, 11:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Turkey-Military-Buildup.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

ZippyTheChimp
October 11th, 2007, 10:49 PM
I've split off the posts pertaining to the the Armemian genocide question to a separate thread.

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15468&page=6