The decline of New York's retail diversity? [Archive] - Page 2

Ninjahedge

July 23rd, 2007, 12:10 PM

Oh, come on Ninj, you know better. You can't just blame tourists and the B&T crowd. Plenty of use residents use the chains also, especially in the neighbourhoods.

Please state where I "just" blamed tourists.

I am saying that they contribute a great deal to the chain-store takeover.

Please name some natives you know that visit Times Square regularly to go shop at the Disney Store.

Face it, they're convenient. Eveyone needs a bank. Since you can't spit without hitting a Chase, chances are pretty good that's who'll they'll use.

The thing is, I do not see people jumping ship because there are not enough ATM's or branches around. There is a balance point, but something is kind of skewed when it comes to this bank thing.

It's odd though. A bank I would look for, and I think most of us would, would be one that offers other services. I do not care if there is a Chase Bank on every corner if they all close at 6 (aside from ATM's). I would like decent interest rates, convenient online acces and a host of other thnigs. I am giving them my money to hold, I do not want them spending it on buying out all of midtown Manhattan.

Same with drug stores. You'd have to go out of your way to not use a DR/CVS/Rite Aid. The products are the same. For prescriptions, most tend to be filled on insurance, so the price is fixed between the stores. And the other stuff is basically the same also.

But the thing is, having to go out of your way not to use them is not exactly what I would call pleasant. I do not need 3 CVS and 2 Rite Aid in my town (we have them). And don't even get me started on DR...

But are they on every corner in Flushing? Jersey City? They are only on every corner in Manhattan to service the commuting crowd that only knows their little junket. They seem to be the ones least aware of things further out from their beaten path than locals.

Not saying that locals don't contribute, but even you cannot deny that the commuting crowd is the driving force in Midtown, if not other areas of teh city.

Coffee is a bit easier. You can easily find other places beside Starbux or DD. But are they better. Most of the other choices are diners (I specifically didn't use the term coffee shop to avoid confusion with coffee centric places), or delis. Is there coffee likely to be better, or even as good? Probably not.

The SB worked here because it was better than generic greasy spoon tar. But working in Italy might be harder, seeing how they have a coffee shop almost EVERYWHERE. That was more of my point.

So there's the reason the chains take over. They make themselve convenient, they're well organized and efficient, and the deliver as good if not better product than most of the indies.

I don't agree with you on this. I think they make themselves PREVALENT. Convenient is just like everyone else, but people are familiar with a name brand over an independent.

And the people that are more likely to go to a chain are those not familiar with the area. Who makes up the dominating percentage of that demographic? Commuters and Tourists. Unless they heard of a restaurant on Rachel Ray or some other show, they are not likely to try "O-Neils" or any other generic shop.

They will go to Fridays, Red Lobster, Qdoba, Chipoltle, Starbucks and any other name they recognise and know what they are getting over taking the risk on what might be better or worse.

The line outside of Chipoltle at lunch is definitely not from the prices, quality or any other factor. Hell, it does not even pass the "native" test (finding anyone of that nationality EATING at the restaurant). Who is eating there? Mr. Suburban Commuter.

Ah well, whatever. I sound like i am ranting, but I am just going on. I know that there are no real absolutes in this, but I hope you see where I am coming from in this.

Look where the chains are and you will see a striking correspondence between chains and non-residential patronage.

2¢

MikeW

July 23rd, 2007, 02:49 PM

Ninj,

I though you were replying to Sfenn, post, so I don't the the Times Square / Disney store reference, but okay.

Let's exclude the business districts in Manhattan for a moment. Even if we look at the residential neighborhoods, the same thing is happening. I live on the UES. I have three Chases and several other banks within three blocks of me, and two Duane Reads, a CVS, and a Gristedes Drug w the same radius. Within five blocks I have at least four Starbuckses. We probably get the least flow of tourists and commuters in Manhattan. These locations are all being driven by local business.

I think their density is driven by the neighborhood density (and demographics, especially the banks - lotsa money on they UES).

FWIW, where Sbux can make a profit, the little guys don't seem to be able to. We had a local coffeehouse DTUT, which just annouced they're closing due to their rent going up. I doubt the LLs are giving Sbux a break. But they can make their rent were the locals can't.

sfenn1117

July 23rd, 2007, 02:51 PM

Ninjahedge

July 23rd, 2007, 03:08 PM

A few years ago a Duane Reade replaced an A&P in Bay Ridge. The neighborhood was pissed that it lost its grocery store. The Duane Reade is now closed with rumors of a supermarket coming back. That's how it's done.

Not all of Manhattan is filled with tourists anyway, so that argument doesn't work everywhere.

Never said it did.

But comparing midtown to the village is like night and day. (Granted the Village et. all. also have very loud community voices, so they are not as easily...um..."colonized" as Midtown, where $$ is the main language).

And as for why SB makes it over the others? There are a few things really. First is teh fact that it serves a type-A personality beverage to people and makes sure you can get it quick and take it with you. A lot of the smaller shops are more euro-based in that they kind of liked you to hang around a bit if you were getting a cappuchino.

Not all of them, mind you!

They are just generally geared more towards mass production as well. Also, I would not be surprised if you took a look at the actual numbers and found that if a private owner were to have a shop like that, it may not be enough for them to survive on. The corporation may not need as much $$ to sustain its workforce than an owner would to keep himself and his workforce happy.

Just a thought on that last one. No real data to back it up....

sfenn1117

July 23rd, 2007, 03:41 PM

I agree with that. The other thing is Starbucks can afford to have a few lackluster locations. An independent coffee shop cannot, obviously.

At least Starbucks add more vibrancy to the city than banks. Chase is just out of control.

MikeW

July 23rd, 2007, 04:36 PM

They're not going to sit on an unprofitable location unless they see it becoming profitable.

In point of fact Sbux may get squeezed out....

... by Dunkin Donuts, and a suddenly coffee-centric McDonalds. Personally, I prefer Sbux.

I agree with that. The other thing is Starbucks can afford to have a few lackluster locations. An independent coffee shop cannot, obviously.

At least Starbucks add more vibrancy to the city than banks. Chase is just out of control.

Fabrizio

July 23rd, 2007, 05:36 PM

"They're not going to sit on an unprofitable location unless they see it becoming profitable."

Simply not true.

Profit is measured many ways. Chains also profit from having locations that DON'T pay the rent... that don't make money.

They profit because: having a "presence" in a certain neighborhood means "exposure". Visibility. A way to build all-important brand recognition.

It's a form of advertising...having your logo on the side of a building 24/7 and having it lit up at night.

Also: big chains can absorb and carry unprofitable stores... because it's the bottom line that counts not always what individual stores do.

Unprofitable stores are often part of a growth strategy... getting your name out there.... and blocking competition. Sometimes it PAYS to eat certain loses.

So this business about "if-people-didn't-patronize-it, it-would-close"... is bunk.

MikeW

July 23rd, 2007, 05:54 PM

We're talking about different situations. I can buy your scenario for something like a 5th Ave/Madison Ave/West Broadway/Times Square "flagship" type store. I'm talking about a neighborhood Starbucks.

If Sbux has a stores on 81st & 2nd, 85th & 1st, 84 & 3rd, 85th & Lex, 87th & Lex, and 91st & 3rd (all of which they do), they're all expected to make money. These aren't retail billboards. Sbux has closed unprofitable locations. The one that comes to mind is 87th and Broadway, which was the first Sbux in Manhattan. The LL wanted too much money, and Sbux left.

"They're not going to sit on an unprofitable location unless they see it becoming profitable."

Simply not true.

Profit is measured many ways. Chains also profit from having locations that DON'T pay the rent... that don't make money.

They profit because: having a "presence" in a certain neighborhood means "exposure". Visibility. A way to build all-important brand recognition.

It's a form of advertising...having your logo on the side of a building 24/7 and having it lit up at night.

Also: big chains can absorb and carry unprofitable stores... because it's the bottom line that counts not always what individual stores do.

Unprofitable stores are often part of a growth strategy... getting your name out there.... and blocking competition. Sometimes it PAYS to eat certain loses.

So this business about "if-people-didn't-patronize-it, it-would-close"... is bunk.

Ninjahedge

July 23rd, 2007, 06:00 PM

Why does SB have two stores within earshot (and direct sight) of each other?

I forget where this was, but NYU comes to mind.

2 stores that you can see each other from.

Sometimes it is to milk everything you can out of an area so that others can't profit, eventually turning all proceeds to you.

DR has done this quite aggressively....

Fabrizio

July 23rd, 2007, 06:04 PM

MikeW: my point is that there are no hard and fast rules with big chains... an unprofitable one may be chosen to hang on...another to close. It depends on the corporate strategy... long range plans. Foot traffic is not the only consideration ... as it is in single owned stores.

NewYorkDoc

July 23rd, 2007, 07:00 PM

Why does SB have two stores within earshot (and direct sight) of each other?

I forget where this was, but NYU comes to mind.

2 stores that you can see each other from.

....

Astor Place.

Schadenfrau

July 23rd, 2007, 07:10 PM

It's actually not so simple when you're dealing with a nationwide corporation that is willing to take a hit on prestige/tourist locations.

MikeW

July 23rd, 2007, 11:25 PM

Two of the Startbuckses I mentioned above are within sight of each other. But there is a reason. The are on either side of the 86th st 4/5/6 station. A large number of coffee drinkers won't be crossing 86th, but will just drain into the station.

Why does SB have two stores within earshot (and direct sight) of each other?

I forget where this was, but NYU comes to mind.

2 stores that you can see each other from.

Sometimes it is to milk everything you can out of an area so that others can't profit, eventually turning all proceeds to you.

DR has done this quite aggressively....

milleniumcab

July 24th, 2007, 12:14 AM

econ_tim

July 24th, 2007, 11:50 AM

whatever you feel about the profitability of bank branches and drug stores, their owners are obviously willing to pay more for the space than dearly departed mom and pop stores. this much seems uncontroversial.

so if you want more mom and pop stores, you can either

a)subsidize the rent of local businesses
b)increase taxes on bank branches and drug stores
c)strictly limit the number of bank branches or drug stores in a given neighborhood

which, if any of these, do you support?

antinimby

July 24th, 2007, 06:14 PM

c) sounds the best.

MikeW

July 24th, 2007, 06:44 PM

Never gonna happen, and you know it.

c) sounds the best.

antinimby

July 24th, 2007, 06:53 PM

I don't know...never sounds like a mighty long time.

At this rate, it will be a matter of time before someone in office will get fed up and will propose legislation.

jersey_guy

July 24th, 2007, 07:20 PM

or d) patronize mom and pop stores more often. The other three choices are horrible government regulation.

econ_tim

July 25th, 2007, 12:39 AM

or d) patronize mom and pop stores more often. The other three choices are horrible government regulation.

ok, but your patronage alone probably has no effect on the number of mom and pop store. the mix of stores reflects the average citizen's (loosely speaking) consumption habits.

macreator

July 25th, 2007, 01:09 AM

Never gonna happen, and you know it.

It's actually already happening. New zoning for 125th street forbids banks from occupying first floor retail space in new construction. They must instead occupy second floor retail space. This is part of an effort to keep the avenue from being dead of life after 5 PM.

antinimby

July 30th, 2007, 07:45 PM

At this rate, it will be a matter of time before someone in office will get fed up and will propose legislation.Speaking of the devil...

West Side Story: Councilwoman Worried Big Businesses Are Turning City Into Giant Mall

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/images/live/122/243344.jpg

A City Councilwoman is taking on big businesses that are pushing out mom-and-pop stores all over the city, but can the phenomenon, which is not illegal be stopped? NY1’s Cheryl Wills filed the following report. Jul 30, 2007 (http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=72102)

Murder Ink claimed to be the first bookstore in the nation devoted solely to crime fiction, but just months ago, the Upper West Side shop suffered a lethal blow – a higher rent that it could no longer afford.

It's one of many cases which has local Councilwoman Gale Brewer worried that the whole city is becoming one huge mall.

"On Broadway, we have banks, drugstores – we call it the ‘mall-ization,’” says Brewer. “We're not happy at all."

Upper West Side residents say virtually every time they turn around another beloved mom and pop store is forced out of business – and replaced by a national bank or franchise. They believe it’s ruining the character of their neighborhood.

"It's just that you hate to see some of these things go because they have human values that the chain stores don't have,” says a resident.

"My council district has 60 bank branches,” says Brewer. “It's too much."

But this phenomenon is not unique to the Upper West Side. Angry Brooklynites protested a proposed Wal-Mart in Albee Square.

The downtown commercial space was sold for more than $125 million, but there are reports that developers will not make a deal with Wal-Mart. And Councilwoman Brewer says she's trying to find other ways to keep national franchises from taking over storefront space.

“Either we have to work with the city planning commission and we have to say that storefronts need to be a certain size – that's one thing we're looking at,” says Brewer. “There isn't an easy answer to this problem."

But to be fair, not all New Yorkers see this issue as a problem.

"I think it's going to be convenience,” says one resident. “If we want to go shopping for kids clothing, you have to go downtown. So it will be easier for us."

"It's kind of like a whole new thing,” added another.

A whole new thing, that for many New Yorkers is a tough pill to swallow.

- Cheryl Wills

Copyright © 2007 NY1 News

bigkdc

July 31st, 2007, 10:05 AM

It is such a difficult situation. I completely see why landlords want/need to rent to whomever is willing to pay market rent. However, does a neighborhood with all banks/drug stores lose value in the long run because it has no character?

Each individual decision by the landlord makes sense but when you look up 5 years from now the collective decisions may hurt the neighborhood's value.

It will be interesting to see what happens down in Hudson Square. There are a ton of open retail spaces and the demographics are quite good with all of those $1MM+ new condos. However there is not a lot of foot traffic so not so sure the marketing angle is as interesting for the banks. I've heard the landlords are holding out for top $ but so far nobody has bit.

MikeW

July 31st, 2007, 01:01 PM

You're not seeing a huge reason why the city will never restrict big commercial renters. Properties with big commercial renters, especially big national chains with very high D&B ratings, are much more valuable than properties with small local companies as tenants. This value translates directly to assessed value for property tax purposes.

You think the city would put in any rules that would force property tax revenues down (or prevent them from rising)?

Also, and this applies mainly to new projects, the commericial space in a new project is usually rented well before ground is broken. Those leases are then used, at least partially, to secure financing for the project. The banks are much happier with the same national credit tenants mentioned above.

So as long as those tenants can make money on these locations, and are willing to pay top dollar for them, nothing is going to change, because there are very big forces supporting the current situation.

Ninjahedge

July 31st, 2007, 05:25 PM

I think the least they should do is have some sorty of proliferance law. How many of the same company can be located in the same general area, And how many of the same type (specifically things like banks).

Exceptions could be made for shops that have two storeronts on the same block if they are not all over the city (example, Joes Pizza used to have two small places at W4th... I think it was W4th...)

If you could just prevent an abuse of wealth or dominance, then maybe some could be saved.

But if we follow a common financial model, NYC will be a mall OR a very expensive specialty shop zone. Small shops add character, but they rarely last when the $$ goes up.

MikeW

September 21st, 2007, 12:59 PM

What you're missing here is that CC is hurting because Best Buy is eating their lunch. So BB is going to be the dominant electronics retailer. I don't see how this really changes anything (with regard to the subject of this thread)

Hot off the Press:

Circuit City Swings to Loss in 2Q... or "The Public Got Smart" (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187560&postcount=3)

You heard it from Ninja and me first.;)

Ninjahedge

September 21st, 2007, 04:56 PM

They both suck.

What is your point Mike?

eddhead

September 21st, 2007, 04:59 PM

What you're missing here is that CC is hurting because Best Buy is eating their lunch. So BB is going to be the dominant electronics retailer. I don't see how this really changes anything (with regard to the subject of this thread)
i agree. Independent retailers just cannot compete. They do not have the scale and resulting buying power to keep prices low, and they cannot afford the space to carry a full line of inventory. They also cannot afford to carry loss leaders.

Exceptions are companies like B&H, and J&R who had the vision, capital and capacity to gradually grow over time and achieve the type of scale you need to compete with the big chains, effectively becoming independant super stores. But I am afraid they are the last of a breed.

MikeW

September 21st, 2007, 07:18 PM

macreator

September 21st, 2007, 07:32 PM

I miss The Wiz, if only for their slogan, "Nobody Beats The Wiz", and their mascot:

http://www.thestockbandit.net/wp-content/my-images/TheWiz.gif

ManhattanKnight

September 21st, 2007, 10:35 PM

^You're showing your extreme youth and inexperience. The Wizzes were dumps but dire foreshadowers of CC and BB. CE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fO9XC3tAbkQ) was the real deal. And before any of them was 47th Street Camera: the realest deal and experience of any of them (I'm still joyfully using the pair of Olympus OM manual SLRs and array of Zuiko lenses that I bought there when I was young).

ZippyTheChimp

September 22nd, 2007, 12:42 AM

Crazy Eddie Antar. In the 60s, he had an electronics counter at a Crawford's on Kings Highway. Soon after, he opened a store called Sights and Sounds nearby.

The whole family was crazy. At the time, his kid sister Ellen was a friend/occasional girlfriend. She was blond, cute, and taught me how to whistle.
:)

macreator

September 23rd, 2007, 11:22 PM

Didn't Crazy Eddie go to jail for a while on fraud charges? Perhaps his prices really were insane.

Ninjahedge

September 24th, 2007, 11:50 AM

That CC travails have nothing to do NY retail diversity. They haven't been particularly well run lately. And the electronics business is particularly tough. The retail graveyard is littered with the bones of dead electronics stores (Crazy Eddie, Newmark and Lewis, The Wiz, Incrediable Universe, etc, etc).

The numbers are not evident.

What I read it as was that CC cannot compete in a market that is gradually becoming Internet Dominated.

The Wiz tried to get out of the electronics-only genre by including appliances (ala PC Richards and Son) but flopped. They tried to do too much, electronics, AV, computers, music "and more".

BS.

Beast Buy is only dominating now from the better commercials. I do not see many educated electronics shoppers going in there, nor many people online coming in to purchase their wide screen TV.

Their numbers may be up, but I do not see them as killing CC. I see CC offering a crappy website, shoddy products and inconvenient locations.

Beast buy I see offering a sale on XBox 360 games every so often, and a warantee policy that is keeping their head nicely above water.

Front_Porch

September 24th, 2007, 01:50 PM

I had a friend who used to buy VCRs here and take them over to Russia when she went. I wonder how much of the New York City electronics trade is stuff that goes back home with tourists?

sfenn1117

September 24th, 2007, 09:47 PM

I miss The Wiz, if only for their slogan, "Nobody Beats The Wiz", and their mascot:

http://www.thestockbandit.net/wp-content/my-images/TheWiz.gif

I loved when Elaine dated him.

MidtownGuy

September 27th, 2007, 11:09 PM

The September 20th issue of TimeOut New York did an article rating the 10 Manhattan neighborhoods that still have soul. In tabulating the ratings, points were deducted for the number of chain stores in the neighborhood.
Several comments were made about the oversaturation of streetlife-killing bank branches as well.

Ninjahedge

September 28th, 2007, 09:48 AM

Any links?

MidtownGuy

September 28th, 2007, 11:35 AM

http://www.timeout.com/newyork/article/22661/top-10-hoods

antinimby

October 9th, 2007, 04:49 PM

High rents displacing small businesses

By Justin Rocket Silverman
October 9, 2007 (http://www.amny.com/news/local/am-mom1009,0,893326,full.story)

Startled by the sheer number of banks she saw opening in her Upper West Side district, Councilwoman Gale Brewer took it upon herself to count them. In the blocks between West 54th and West 96th streets, she found almost 60.

"That is a huge number," the Manhattan Democrat said yesterday. "The problem is that once a bank goes in, it drives up the rental price for the whole neighborhood. Rents get so high that it's a death knell for the smaller businesses in the area."

Brewer and other council members are scrambling to stem the loss of mom and pop stores in New York. During hearings last month, they discussed tax breaks for independent stores and zoning changes that would prohibit more chains in certain areas.

Already the city's Department of City Planning is considering a special district on 125th Street in Harlem that would prohibit banks from fully occupying ground-floor spaces. Instead, the banks would be situated on upper floors, while businesses like restaurants and art galleries would front the sidewalk.

While that special district is still under review, the Bloomberg administration has not moved to block more national chains from opening in already saturated neighborhoods.

"We would be reluctant to deny businesses that want to open and grow here," said Robert Walsh, commissioner of the Department of Small Business Services. "We still have hundreds of neighborhoods that are struggling to have a bank branch open and that declare victory when, yes, I'll say it, a Starbucks opens there."

Still, Walsh said, the mayor created the agency in 2002 to help mom and pops "market the unique character of their businesses." To that end, the agency helps craft business plans, provides technical assistance, and offers referrals to local merchants associations.

Yet there is little the agency can do in the face of a blazing hot real estate market that is pricing out even profitable independent businesses.

"There is no easy solution," Walsh said. "In some way we are victims of our own success."

Copyright © 2007, AM New York

czsz

October 9th, 2007, 07:27 PM

We're ripe for a movie about the overbanking of New York. A "You've Got Mail" for the 00s.

MikeW

October 10th, 2007, 12:21 AM

Sometime soon, all these banks are going to start merging. That should start to cut down the branch population boom. Someone just bought Commerce.

We're ripe for a movie about the overbanking of New York. A "You've Got Mail" for the 00s.

brianac

April 22nd, 2008, 07:09 AM

Locals Rally To Save Chelsea's 'Last Ungentrified Block'

byLysandra Ohrstrom (http://www.observer.com/2007/author/lysandra-ohrstrom) | April 21, 2008

http://observer.cast.advomatic.com/files/imagecache/article/files/ChelseaLiquor_1.jpg Property Shark

“We all know what happens when the designer stores come in,” said Gloria Sukenick, a member of the Metropolitan Council on Housing and a 16-year Chelsea resident.

“You have to take two buses to buy a light bulb or a screwdriver…The people (in public housing) won’t have any place to shop anymore.”

Ms. Sukenick and other neighborhood activists are organizing a rally on May 3 to “Save the Mom-and-Pop stores of 9th Avenue.”

At least eight stores along this “last ungentrified block in Chelsea” could displaced within the next two years as their leases expire, she said.
Landlord Morris Moinian, whose Fortuna Realty company bought 112-126 Ninth Avenue last November for $31.4 million, previously told The Observer that he plans to “renovate and upgrade (http://www.observer.com/node/60641/2007-11)” the building to lure high-end retail to the area.

Among the expected casualties is the 68-year-old Chelsea Liquor Store, which is currently negotiating with Fortuna over a reported 300 percent rent hike, according to the blog Jeremiah’s Vanishing New York (http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-of-block.html). The Ninth Avenue Bodega, a Moneygram, New China Takeout, the New Barber Shop, and the Sweet Banana Candy Shop also have between three months to two years before their leases expire

© 2008 Observer Media Group,

MikeW

April 22nd, 2008, 02:37 PM

Haven't seen this thread in a while.

Ninjahedge

April 22nd, 2008, 03:39 PM

I just had something similar in Hoboken. Neyna (I forget the actual name) leather was forced out. Nice handmade leathers there.

What took its place?

Verizon.

It is at least the third Verizon store in Hoboken, and one of at least 12-15 stores in all. It is really sad.

And although I feel sympathy for this 9th avenue thing (especially after having some of my fav bars shuffled and moved out), saving a liquor store, moneygram and a chinese takeout is not tops on the list. The others, liek the candy shop and Bodega, might be more worth saving.

It would be nice to be able to cherrypick some of the flavor that stays. "Checks cashed here" and "otb" have never been winners (see 3rd avenue near 45th and 125th avenue up near the Appolo) but when you up the rent, they all go, not just the bottom feeders.

brianac

April 26th, 2008, 06:39 AM

Battle for 9th Avenue Still Rages on in Chelsea

Friday, April 25, 2008, by Jeremiah Moss

http://curbednetwork.com/cache/gallery/3139/2440690163_8648e2a87c_o.jpg

The strip of retailers on Ninth Avenue that will be evicted.
http://curbednetwork.com/cache/gallery/3139/2440690163_5e8e8a8640_s.jpg (http://curbed.com/archives/2008/04/25/battle_for_9th_avenue_still_rages_on_in_chelsea.ph p?o=0)
http://curbednetwork.com/cache/gallery/2138/2441520682_0c4716e523_s.jpg (http://curbed.com/archives/2008/04/25/battle_for_9th_avenue_still_rages_on_in_chelsea.ph p?o=1)
http://curbednetwork.com/cache/gallery/3165/2441520600_36db11a12a_s.jpg (http://curbed.com/archives/2008/04/25/battle_for_9th_avenue_still_rages_on_in_chelsea.ph p?o=2)
http://curbednetwork.com/cache/gallery/2348/2441520570_bf3b9cf182_s.jpg (http://curbed.com/archives/2008/04/25/battle_for_9th_avenue_still_rages_on_in_chelsea.ph p?o=3)
The owners of the block of mom-and-pop shops on 9th Avenue between 17th and 18th Streets (http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-of-block.html) will be systematically evicted by new landlord Morris Moinian, who bought 112-126 9th Avenue for $31 million. He plans to upscale them all. Now, local activists Miguel Acevedo and Gloria Sukenik are organizing a demonstration in support of the businesses. While some may look at this block and see a blemish on the Botoxed-face of ever-spreading MePa, many New Yorkers find the comforts of home here. It’s one of the last places where the battle between old and new Chelsea still rages on.

Miguel says that one of the deli owners is trying to honor a stipulation in his lease by doing a $50,000 renovation of his store. The landlord, however, refuses to sign the permits, forcing the deli owner to violate the lease and face eviction. Acevedo also says the landlord has been harassing not only the business owners, but the rent-regulated tenants as well. Already, the building is emptying out. The superintendent, who looked after the building for more than 30 years, was fired and subsequently suffered a heart attack.

“We want to bring attention to this problem and make a lot of noise. We hope to negotiate with the landlord,” said Acevedo, “and get these small businesses rent increases they can afford.” But this block is part of the ever-expanding circumference of unstoppable MePa. To all those drunk girls in pointy shoes, it’s simply in the way. The demonstration is on Saturday May 3, at 1:00 on the same block.

· Death of a Block (http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-of-block.html) [Jeremiah's Vanishing New York]

http://curbed.com/archives/2008/04/25/battle_for_9th_avenue_still_rages_on_in_chelsea.ph p#more

Copyright © 2008 Curbed

Clarknt67

April 29th, 2008, 05:39 PM

Ugh, in my few block radius in the last 2 years I've lost a dollar $tore, a pizza slice place, a card shop and a barber shop and all to what? Banks at every location. Blech. What am I gonna do with that? There were already thousands of banks in my hood.

Ninjahedge

May 1st, 2008, 10:13 AM

We just lost one here in Hoboken called Ted and Joe's. A nice little bar/grill that you could get a decent brunch or burger. Not too rowdy, just kinda cozy (not a dank hole in the wall either).

Landlord got greedy and upped the rent. They are out.

My money is that we are going to get some n00b that does not know anything about business trying to open something there and closing in a year because they underestimated the lag time for developing a following in Hoboken

OR

A bank/cell phone store/real estate agent. Maybe all three in one! :crosseyed:

NYatKNIGHT

May 1st, 2008, 10:18 AM

No more Ted and Joe's? Dang! Sad to hear that.

Ninjahedge

May 1st, 2008, 12:10 PM

You see, this is the tail end of gentrification that most people do not acnowledge.

The initial boon was that we got rid of the drink-till-you-puke-or-brawl-or-both bars and replace them with bar and grills, at the very least.

We still had our pizza parlors, hardware shops that close at 6pm right before you run off the bus to buy a light bulb or wood glue, and other comfy amenities.

Some big ticket places either opened or expanded (i forget the names of all, but) places like Nine and the like that try to milk the rich over plates of sushi, pate, Mediterranian or all of them at once (Fusion anyone?). But there is an odd schism. We still have our rat havens (like Chicken n Rib Crib becomeing something like Ribs 'R Us), But most are moving out because of prices.

Does that mean a ritzy place moves in? No. A bank branch, real estate office, cell phone store (which are starting to receed now, TG!!), and the like are moving in.

We DID get a Shop Rite, but the area around it is 99% residential and no new support franchises are opening to help the increase in residents. Our casual dining places can't afford to be here and they get replaced by chains (Quiznos, Qudoba), high scale places (Amish Market/Whole Foods replacing Quick Chek/Right Aid), or franchises which oddly serve suport, but push out the things the support was needed for (ATM locations/banks).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE gentrification, but I think it is llike most things. If you rush it or just do it incorrectly, you end up with a bottle of bitter vinegar instead of a decent wine.

So how can this "movement" be regulated w/o stifiling development?

MidtownGuy

May 1st, 2008, 12:37 PM

Disgusting pig Moinian. I curse him. He is worse than a disease.

MidtownGuy

May 1st, 2008, 01:41 PM

The first to vanish will be Chelsea Liquors. In business since about 1940, under the current ownership for over 30 years, they've been given 30 days to vacate the premises. The rent has jumped 300% and the lease is up. I went in to talk to the bereaved owner and a steady stream of regulars came in to grieve and express their anger.

^from the link provided by brianac (thanks). The blog is called "Vanishing New York". I can relate.

antinimby

May 1st, 2008, 09:21 PM

Even in Weak Economy, City's Retail Sector Is a Buy

By MICHAEL STOLER
May 1, 2008 (http://www2.nysun.com/article/75676)

Even though the list of negative economic news is long and varied — consumer confidence in April fell to its lowest point in five years and consumer spending is falling as inflation is on the rise; food prices have risen between 10% and 15% in the last six months and prices are rising for nearly every commodity; clothing imported from Europe is selling at its highest prices ever — the retail real estate sector is strong in the tri-state region, and many projects are in various stages of development across the five boroughs.

"Retail real estate fundamentals in the New York metropolitan area remain strong for several reasons," the executive director of retail services at Cushman & Wakefield, Gene Spiegelman, said. He said the region is a "supply-constrained marketplace."

"By national standards, the region is under-stored and as you enter the five borough marketplace, the ratio of retail gross leasing area — the floor area that can be used by retailers — per capita decreases to approximately less than one-third of the national standard," Mr. Spiegelman said.

In addition, he noted that the metropolitan area boasts more than 17 million residents with "huge pockets of affluence," and employment levels are remaining stable. Manhattan, Mr. Spiegelman said, is a gateway market for new international retail brands, and is benefiting from strong tourist demand, with international travelers spending euros and pounds.

"There are a few important factors driving the continued success of retail in New York City," the president and CEO of Acadia Realty Trust, Kenneth Bernstein, said. "First, New York City has less retail than the United States in general. The five boroughs have only one-third of the retail square footage per person that exists in most other parts of the county.

This lack of supply keeps tenant demand and tenant productivity stronger than in markets with abundant retail, even in a softening economy. Second, the barriers to entry — for example, the ability for the development of new stores — are significantly higher in New York City, also keeping tenant demand strong."

Last week, the city's Economic Development Corp. announced the selection of Related Cos. to redevelop the 575,000-square-foot Kingsbridge Armory in the Kingsbridge Heights section of the Bronx.

It is thought to be the largest armory in the world, containing 575,000 square feet of space, including a former drill floor measuring 180,000 square feet, larger than a full city block. The city is investing about $30 million in capital funds for environmental cleanup in the building, replacement of its roof, and repairs to the façade.

Related's proposal for the landmarked structure, the Shops at the Armory, calls for a destination anchor retail development, coupled with specialty and local retail, restaurants, a cinema, and community space. Other proposed features include a recreational facility, catering and banquet space, outdoor open space with a seasonal farmers' market and café, and parking for 400 cars.

The project is expected generate about 1,800 construction jobs and 2,000 permanent jobs. Related plans to invest about $310 million to acquire and redevelop the Armory.

Related is also the developer of the Gateway Center at the Bronx Terminal Market, which will redevelop a portion of the Bronx Terminal Market site along with the former Bronx House of Detention site. The project will include retail and restaurant space as well public access to the Harlem River.

When completed in 2009, the 1 million-square-foot retail development is expected to contain a Target, Home Depot, BJ's Wholesale, Bed Bath & Beyond, and Best Buy. One of the buildings on the site is a multi-level 2,600-space parking garage. The $500 million project is estimated to create 2,100 permanent retail jobs for the residents of the Bronx.

The city of New York will also be constructing a waterfront park in connection with the project. Additionally, a 250-room hotel is planned as a second phase.

Major retail developments are planned and under construction in Harlem. Next year, East River Plaza, a development of Blumenfeld Development and Forest City Ratner, will open in East Harlem. The 475,000-square-foot retail center will be situated just off the FDR Drive between 116th and 119th streets. Major tenants will include Manhattan's first Target and Best Buy.

In the summer, construction is scheduled to commence on Harlem Park, the 21-story, 640,000-square-foot office and retail tower on the former parking lot of the New York College of Podiatric Medicine, between 124th and 125th streets and Park Avenue. Harlem Park is a development of Vornado Realty Trust, MacFarlane Partners, and Integrated Holdings.

Earlier this year, Major League Baseball signed a lease in the building to house its new television network. According to real estate sources, Macy's is in negotiations with the developer to occupy the first three floors and the basement level of the tower.

In Queens, construction is progressing at a new mixed-use retail and residential project being built by Vornado Realty Trust. The development is situated behind the Rego Park Mall, bounded by the Horace Harding Expressway, Junction Boulevard, and 62nd and 97th streets.

The three-story retail complex, which is scheduled to open later in the year is said to include a Home Depot, a Kohl's, and Century 21. The original development included a residential component with about 400 units built in two residential towers. In March, the developer had to put that on the hold due to the weakened real estate market.

One of the largest retail developments in Manhattan is Columbus Village, 320,000 square feet of retail space in three contiguous city blocks between 97th and 100th streets on the Upper West Side. A 57,000-square-foot Whole Foods will anchor the tower at 808 Columbus Ave.

At the southwest corner of Broadway and 72nd Street, construction is progressing at a mixed-use retail and residential rental tower. The building will contain 48,000 square feet of retail space on five floors. According to real estate sources, the developer is seeking a rent of more than $500 a square foot for the first floor.

On March 4, Target opened a 200,000-square-foot store on the second and third floors of the Junction, a project at the confluence of Flatbush and Nostrand avenues near Brooklyn College.

The first floor of the complex, a development of Triangle Equities and Target, will be the home of retailers including Circuit City, David's Bridal, the Children's Place, and Payless Shoe Source. A 500-car parking garage operated by Central Parking is adjacent to the site.

Industry leaders are cautiously optimistic about the state of retail in light of the current economy.

"Trophy retail locations are continuing fetch high rents as seen at 666 Fifth Avenue," the executive vice president of CB Richard Ellis, Andrew Goldberg, said. "Abercrombie & Fitch has entered into a lease for its' A & F Kids Division at a remarkable price of $2,000 per square foot for the ground floor in half of the existing Brooks Brother's location. This is a testament to a flagship location with excellent visibility on Fifth Avenue."

Mr. Goldberg added: "Secondary and territory locations are taking longer to rent, with significantly less demand by local and national retailers, thereby forcing lower rents and higher rental incentives for free rent and tenant improvements.

"There continues to be a demand for big box space as demonstrated by the leasing of the retail component at 808 Columbus Avenue and at the Related Gateway development in the Bronx," he said.

Looking ahead, Mr. Spiegelman of Cushman & Wakefield said the buoyancy of New York's retail sector will depend on how many primary and ancillary jobs Wall Street sheds, the continuation of tourism traffic, the net effect of the weak dollar on retail sales, and whether rising energy costs and food prices will further slow down consumer spending.

"We still must look cautiously at the quarters to come as storm clouds have rolled in, and the question is how much will it rain on our parade?" he said.

With thousands of individuals moving to New York City and visitors from around the world flocking to our great city, expect retail activity to remain buoyant for the foreseeable future.

© 2007 The New York Sun, One SL, LLC

pianoman11686

May 2nd, 2008, 12:44 AM

^To solve this problem, they should encourage more vertical shopping malls (at least in Manhattan). It already works at the Time Warner Center.

MidtownGuy

May 2nd, 2008, 01:48 AM

macreator

May 2nd, 2008, 02:06 AM

I walked by the almost finished Veneto on 2nd ave/53rd tonight. I almost puked when I saw the big signs in the window for the coming of.....
another CHASE.:mad::mad::mad:
I wish the whole thing would get swallowed up Poltergeist-style.

I actually just walked by the Veneto on my way home and saw the same signs. The new branch hasn't been built out yet, but it will be soon, and the neighborhood will have yet another bank...across from a Walgreens. Fantastic.

I'd also like to point out that there is a Chase branch on 51st and 3rd, 51st and 1st, 55th and 1st, and now one at the Veneto at 53rd and 2nd. This is truly ridiculous. I went into the Chase branch on 51st and 1st the other day to use the ATM and found the staff members there simply standing around with nothing to do. Talk about saturation. This is ridiculous. Oh, and there is a Chase ATM at the Duane Reade across the street at 51st and 1st as well.

I'm praying that this economic slowdown will finally swing things back into balance but perhaps I've been wrong to place faith in the system.

MidtownGuy

May 2nd, 2008, 03:46 AM

I want the charging for atm transactions outlawed first of all.

The Benniest

May 2nd, 2008, 09:51 AM

I'd also like to point out that there is a Chase branch on 51st and 3rd, 51st and 1st, 55th and 1st, and now one at the Veneto at 53rd and 2nd. This is truly ridiculous. I went into the Chase branch on 51st and 1st the other day to use the ATM and found the staff members there simply standing around with nothing to do. Talk about saturation. This is ridiculous. Oh, and there is a Chase ATM at the Duane Reade across the street at 51st and 1st as well.
That is completely ridiculous! :eek:

I want the charging for atm transactions outlawed first of all.
I agree :cool:

Ninjahedge

May 2nd, 2008, 10:31 AM

I am just hoping that the over-expansion and eventual withdrawl of these places does not leave a bunch of vacancies all over town.

It is hard to get long term tenants to come back after they have been forced out by a less than accomodating greedy (and/or) corporate landlord.

antinimby

May 2nd, 2008, 09:16 PM

That is a very valid concern.

All those businesses that are gone will be hard to replace because they hold years and years of experience/expertise in what they do.

antinimby

May 27th, 2008, 08:06 PM

Supermarkets flee city's high costs
Stores flee city, focus expansion outside Big Apple; poor neighborhoods hit hardest

May 24. 2008 (http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080525/FREE/134888286/1008) 9:52PM
By: Lisa Fickenscher

Anyone who wants to know why the number of supermarkets in the city is rapidly declining only needs to ask the people who own them.

In the past five years, about 100 grocery store owners have either left the city entirely or focused their expansion efforts outside the Big Apple. In response to recent reports detailing the situation, a special commission is now struggling to come up with recommendations that might help turn the tide. The experiences of many of the grocers leaving town show, however, that it won't be easy.

"The cost of operating supermarkets in New York City was impossible," says Eligio Peña, who closed the last of his six Associated supermarkets here in 2000 after 30 years in business. Today he co-owns 26 Compare Foods markets in the Carolinas.

Mr. Peña's complaint and his response are common. The National Supermarket Association, a Queens-based group that represents independent chains including Associated, Key Food, Pioneer and C-Town, reports that a quarter of its 400 members have shifted their focus elsewhere, opening stores along the East Coast from Florida and Georgia to as far north as Massachusetts.

"These are very successful entrepreneurs who have moved away," says Nelson Eusebio, president of the trade group.

In another sign of the exodus, local distributor Krasdale Foods today has customers in seven states. It has followed its city-based customers that have been lured out of town by lower rents, taxes, insurance and labor costs. Three years ago, Krasdale had no business outside the New York area.

The defections come at a time when the city can least afford it. A study released this month by the Department of City Planning looks at the combination of dwindling supermarket numbers and a rising population and finds a severe shortage of grocery stores in some neighborhoods.

In three areas of Brooklyn, for example, there is less than 10,000 square feet of supermarket space for every 10,000 residents. That is less than half the amount in many affluent neighborhoods in Manhattan.
Approximately 3 million New Yorkers live in supermarket-deprived areas, according to city data.

Last year, the city appointed a food policy coordinator, Ben Thomases, to lead initiatives to address the problem. He has set up a supermarket commission which later this year will suggest economic incentives to attract and keep supermarkets in low-income neighborhoods.

Making matters worse

Meanwhile, grocers argue that one of the city's interim remedies will only exacerbate the problem. They charge that plans to put an additional 1,000 produce vendors on the streets in poorer neighborhoods will siphon business from the produce sections of the supermarkets that remain in those areas.

The industry's main beefs with the city center on high taxes and rent. Veteran grocer Cesar Ramirez is a prime example. Although he still owns three C-Town markets in upper Manhattan and the Bronx, in recent years he has focused his energies on Florida, where he has opened five Freshco stores.

"I definitely wouldn't expand in New York unless there were tax rebates and subsidized rent," says Mr. Ramirez. He notes that he has been able to hold on in New York largely because he owns the real estate at two of his locations.

Without that advantage, many of his peers are facing closure. In what is becoming an increasingly common event in the city, a rally was held last week in front of a Bronx Met Food that the landlord is threatening to replace with a Walgreens.

A tough regulatory environment is also contributing to the exodus. New York is among the minority of states that bar supermarkets from the lucrative trade of selling wine, and is among a handful of states requiring them to accept bottles for recycling.

Life in other states is far easier, as Mr. Peña has discovered. In just seven years, he has built a supermarket empire in North Carolina more than four times as large as his former holdings in New York. He notes that he paid between $3 and $5 in real estate taxes per square foot here, a multiple of North Carolina's rate of 40 cents to $1. One of his biggest savings is on insurance, which now costs him $7,000 a year in North Carolina, compared with $100,000 in New York.

New generation awaits

"Because my expenses are lower, my net profit margins are as much as 10%," says Mr. Peña. "In New York, I was happy if I was making a 2% profit."

As bleak as the outlook may be here, there are some hopeful signs. A new generation of store owners are eagerly waiting for their opportunity.

"There are managers who have worked in a store for 10 years, saved enough money and are ready to take the next step," says Mr. Klein of Krasdale. "But finding a location is the big issue."

© 2008 Crain Communications, Inc.

JCMAN320

May 27th, 2008, 09:50 PM

^^^Yet a Whole Foods will pop up in Manhattan for the upper 1% to shop at. Freggin sickening. This society is quickly becoming a society of haves and have nots and it makes me freggin sick!!!

Ninjahedge

May 28th, 2008, 03:28 PM

Whole Foods, Fresh Direct (delivery/mail order) and Amish Market are all dominating. Down near WTC7 a WF just opened a block away from an Amish.

If you want sun dried tomatoes, bree, and the latest in Dutch Chocolate, you can get them in abundance, but try to find a place to pick up some milk and OJ? How much is it worth to you?

pianoman11686

May 28th, 2008, 03:41 PM

In response to that article, I think one of the major problems facing the "above-96th street Manhattan and urbanized boroughs" grocery store market is rather fundamental: grocery stores are no longer a largely local business. If you look nationally, people do the bulk of their grocery shopping at gigantic stores owned by big corporations: Wal-Mart, Kroger, Safeway, Publix, BJ's, Costco, etc. Thus the business model of small, locally-owned stores in New York is out-dated. They probably pay a lot more to their suppliers than the big corporate guys, which drives down profit margins.

As much as I hate to say it, a quick fix to this problem is to allow Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. to open up a few big stores in or near these underserved neighborhoods. There have got to be more than enough suitable sites in all the warehouse districts scattered throughout the Bronx, Brooklyn, etc.

MidtownGuy

May 28th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Oh Jesus Lord, I'm not even gonna touch that one... You've got to be joking.

stache

May 28th, 2008, 05:52 PM

And now he's moving to NYC... :rolleyes:

MikeW

May 28th, 2008, 06:12 PM

If they want to come, and no one else does, it's stupid to keep them out.

But then again the politicians do have to suck up to the unions, don't they.

Oh Jesus Lord, I'm not even gonna touch that one... You've got to be joking.

MidtownGuy

May 28th, 2008, 06:38 PM

Cliché anti-union polemic aside, this doesn't solve any problems and that is why it's idiotic.
City folks don't load up a car to drive to a place for a 10 pound jar of mayonnaise or a truck pallet of toilet tissue.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
They need and want neighborhood grocery stores, not a stadium size Walmart or Costco.
Plus, I don't see the attractiveness of a set up that drives away independent businesses so the same meager handful of corporations can grab the whole pie.
This stuff ought to be obvious to anyone, even "free" market ideologues.

pianoman11686

May 28th, 2008, 10:03 PM

Please. No one said anything about making people drive and load up their trunks with bulk items.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't shop at a Wal-Mart if my life depended on it. Hate the place. But the bottom line is they have a decent selection, even on stuff like produce, and their prices are lower than "mom and pop's" neighborhood grocery. That's what people want.

Where I have done grocery shopping before is at a SuperTarget, which has a sizable grocery section with decent quality. I don't think people would be upset to take a bus or subway to one of those, if it's located at a good transportation hub. People do it for Whole Foods too, right?

And while we're on the topic of free markets, why don't you take another look at what the article cited was the number one reason most independent grocery stores were closing up shop: taxes.

stache

May 29th, 2008, 01:06 AM

no Super Targets here - :p

Ninjahedge

May 29th, 2008, 10:07 AM

MidtownGuy

May 29th, 2008, 11:03 AM

^So many good points.
I've also noticed that many items are cheaper in the smaller stores. And then there is the fact that even the largest big box stores often do not carry the specialty items that one may be looking for which make New York City life so rich in variety to begin with.

Bakeries, specialty food shops, laundromats, charming neighborhood restaurants and taverns, we are losing many of them in large swaths of Manhattan. Taking their place are the same chains of large stores with the same offerings and prices.
Personally I think Whole Foods sucks, half of their overpriced products taste just like cardboard and the produce is "highway robbery" as my dad used to say.
Another example...I can't stand Staples, in every neighborhood, where they want you to buy 3 rolls of tape instead of just one and the price isn't less, just 3X what you wanted to pay. Why do they charge so much for cd's? Where is this volume benefit I am supposed to see reflected in the price? I shop in small stores for those kinds of things too!

Lately Chinatown and Astoria seem to be my favorite places for food shopping and worth the trip for the access to fresh baked-on-the-premesis goods, fruits, vegetables, etc. and all of the variety that used to be available in many Manhattan neighborhoods including my own. Or sometimes I rollerblade down to the East Village (changing now too) to find good things. Last week I went into Moishe's Bakery for the first time, next to the corner of St. Marks and 2nd Ave and left with a bag of some amazing fruit filled pastries, just delicious, and I wondered to myself how long the bakery would last there. We lost several bakeries in my neighborhood and the same kind of thing is happening down there with the delis etc.

Many people who have moved to NYC within the past several years from some other cities don't seem to have a clue what we are talking about because they have no frame of reference. For me it's sad to see NYC's retail scene become increasingly identical to the variety-deprived places from which people move here to escape.

stache

May 29th, 2008, 11:26 AM

The one by me is starting to slide downhill fairly quickly. For that kind of $ I want better customer service. They were not doing deliveries yesterday for some reason.

pianoman11686

May 29th, 2008, 03:18 PM

Actually Piano, I am a Shop-Rite person myself. They are priced similarly on many items and offer prices lower than the bulk places on sale items. The costs on most items has been similar to Wal-Mart AND they use Union labor, so most of the crap that Wal-Mart has been feeding about costs is absolute corporate BS.

I think you're getting the wrong impression. I don't shop at bulk places like Costco and Wal-Mart. When I was living at home, my family and I dutifully shopped at ShopRite for years. (We just switched over to A&P because they redid the store and now it's better than ShopRite.) For produce and specialty items, we used a nearby farmers market type place that grows a lot of its produce out back.

Anyway, saying that the small shops cost more is not exactly right. I find things like lemons, eggs, scallions and other odd items to be cheaper at one of the several Korean shops around town (Hoboken) than at Shop Rite... Weird but true.

When we used to live in Queens, our local grocery store was a Key Food. And yes, we bought produce from the Korean produce place next door, seafood from the Korean fishmonger down the street, and bread from the Italian bakery. But we always complained about the terrible selection at Key Food and the high prices. We used it because it was convenient during the week (walking distance), but on the weekend, it was into the car to drive to a Waldbaum's or Grand Union in Douglaston or somewhere in Nassau.

I think the key here is, unfortunately for some grocers, specialization. Some of these places may need to stop trying to sell everything from Chips to Celery. they need to get back to good Butchershops, Bakeries and Produce Markets. But in todays world, those things have been pushed out ny peoples apparent need to get everything all at once AND their need to have 17 ATM's within walking distance.... ;)

Yes, fully agree. Specialization is great, in my opinion, and has a future if people still value quality over convenience. However, we are talking about general grocery stores. And the small, old Key Foods, C-Towns, Gristedes, etc. just don't get the job done. I've shopped at all these places. They're crowded, have a terrible and overpriced selection on the everyday goods, and produce/meat that is low quality.

So the solution is not in making larger stores that a city that does not depend on Cars as much as mainland America does. But the alternate solutions cannot compete against the megamarts despite their poor suitability for the city as a whole.

These mega-marts have a very bad record of driving out any and all competition, and with that, most of the diversity that NY and some of its surrounding areas are known for. I hope the need for markets starts bringing them back, or we will eventually go the way of the Breadbasket Megamall.

Unfortunately I disagree here. There are few or no stores like your or my local ShopRite in urban Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens. ShopRites are big stores that have good prices on everyday items. They don't have to replace the local bakeries, produce shops, and butchers. But they can replace the local Gristedes or Key Food for things like soft drinks, cereal, pasta, juice, and all the processed/canned items (not to mention the non-food items like toilet paper and shampoo). Wal-Mart and Target can do this too. And in fact I know it's already been done in some of the outer boroughs near major highways (think Belt Pkwy near JFK).

The key is to find locations that are convenient for people to take a bus or subway to (no more than 10-15 minutes one way) and large enough to support a large inventory for a large grocery. Redevelop all the rundown warehouses into good quality supermarkets that can put more pressure on suppliers to drive prices down.

Hey, if they can put an Ikea in Red Hook, and a Whole Foods in Gowanus, they can probably do it anywhere.

Ninjahedge

May 30th, 2008, 11:52 AM

Piano, the only problem with the large markets that I have seen i sthat they do not stay on target.

The one back where my parents live expanded to take over 90% of the mini-mall they were in. DO they serve more variety now? A bit. I see several major brands of Not From Concentrate OJ instead of just Tropicana. But they are also selling Laundry Baskets, Garbage Cans and Lawn Chairs.

Hell, even Microwaves and an occasional flat screen LCD!

The problem is not necessarily if NYC needs a C-Town, or a Key Foods, Stop and Shop, Shop Rite, A+P, the now defunct Grand (overpriced) Union or any other, but that the current model for these stores does not fit what NYC really needs.

D'ag just does not cover all of this.

We need to start putting some back pressure on these larger stores to focus on the main items rather than giving us a full selection of liquor and a Sushi Bar.

Unfortunately, this is not something that is easily orchestrated, and even market pressure is sometimes not enough to influence a forced venue alteration. If these companies feel they can shove an 8-track into a CD player, they will do it. So long as that 8-track somehow miraculously plays something that can be considered by some to be music, they will be able to shove all competing players out of the market, by direct competition, or by indirect increase of real estate value and rents.

NYC does not easily fit into a general model, and while some points you say are right on th emark, the solutions that these companies would provide are, sadly, not.

pianoman11686

May 30th, 2008, 02:31 PM

Still not seeing why it would be a bad idea. What would you offer as an alternative? Would you at least agree that it seems at least some regulatory reform is called for in NY?

Ninjahedge

May 30th, 2008, 03:21 PM

Still not seeing why it would be a bad idea. What would you offer as an alternative? Would you at least agree that it seems at least some regulatory reform is called for in NY?

That is teh problem. Like i said, the solution is having these smaller stores trying not to offer everything, while regulating the number of bank branches and other dead space items on a block.

If you could, in the stretch of a block, go to a Butcher, Baker, Produce Store and a drug store, all with reasonable prices and no real discernable lines at the checkout, I do not think you would have any real problem with not having a big place to go to...

The thing is, there is no real way to make a law or regulation for this, the only thing that would work is for these corporate bodies to start re-examining the area and see how best it could be SEREVD, not how they could dominate it.

DR is a good example. They do not care about convenience or product lines (Try to find Zeasorb foot powder there. You get 5 different varities of diet coke, umbrellas and chewing gum, but PHARMECEUTICALS? Heavens no!). All they care about is $$.

I guess my problem is just that. It fixes the communities hunger, but it does it with a pop-tart. You do that enough and you soon find that you are left with two things:

1. A lot of places you can buy pop tarts
2. A lot of fat people.

I think you know what I am saying. How can we prevent this from happening?

pianoman11686

May 30th, 2008, 11:19 PM

I think we're starting to slowly veer off topic, but I'll try to keep it short and to the point.

That is teh problem. Like i said, the solution is having these smaller stores trying not to offer everything, while regulating the number of bank branches and other dead space items on a block.

Funny you should mention bank branches. The outer boroughs, especially the poorer neighborhoods, are also notoriously underserved by banks. Makes you wonder what all that retail space is being used for.

If you could, in the stretch of a block, go to a Butcher, Baker, Produce Store and a drug store, all with reasonable prices and no real discernable lines at the checkout, I do not think you would have any real problem with not having a big place to go to...

I don't think people have a problem with lines. They have a problem with prices and selection. Even if you have all of the above, you still lack a store where they can go to get basic items that are not meat, produce, bread. Where do you buy pasta/rice/soup/instant dinners? Where do you buy Wonder Bread, PB&J, crackers, cookies, chips, soft drinks, juice, etc.? You still need a place that sells these at reasonable prices, because - like it or not - unfortunately people on lower budgets resort more to processed foods to feed their families. They need these products, and Duane Reades, I feel, are only good enough for those on-the-run purchases, not a week's worth of groceries.

The thing is, there is no real way to make a law or regulation for this, the only thing that would work is for these corporate bodies to start re-examining the area and see how best it could be SEREVD, not how they could dominate it.

I already know how they can be served: with bigger stores. If there are established specialized vendors with good prices and good reputations, residents won't buy their meat/fish/produce at a Wal-Mart/Target. But they will buy their frozen foods, snacks, and drinks there.

And while we're on the topic of keeping the little guys in business, I know for a fact that Whole Foods makes real efforts at using local suppliers for items like bakery, cheese, meat, and produce. Maybe others do too, but they're the only company I've come across that includes it in their mission statement or whatever.

Ninjahedge

June 2nd, 2008, 11:24 AM

Piano, people WILL buy their meat and fish at Wal-Mart. They have already done it elsewhere, and they would do it here. No question in my mind about that.

As for the lines, people do mind those, especially if they have to go to more than one store for their items. If you had to wait for 5-10 minutes at the butcher, baker, etc for every stop, most of your time would be spent waiting in line, not shopping. that was my point on that.

Oh, that is also my least favorite thing about the supermarket we frequent, the seeming perpetual 10 minute line waiting for checkout no matter what time you go. PERFECT when it comes to budgetary concerns/overstaffing, but lousy when you just have a half cart of things and you have a choice of standing behind the elderly penny counter or the mom of 3 pushing a winnebego sized cart full of the weeks supplies! ;)

As for the paucity of bank branches in poor neighborhoods? They are all being pushed out by the OTB's and "Checks Cashed" establishments! Seriously, you didn't know that!!?! ;)

pianoman11686

June 2nd, 2008, 04:33 PM

Piano, people WILL buy their meat and fish at Wal-Mart. They have already done it elsewhere, and they would do it here. No question in my mind about that.

Like where? Examples please?

When I lived in North Carolina for 4 years, we'd occasionally go to a German (or Austrian, not sure which) cafe for brunch on the weekends. They also had a full bakery next door. If you showed up after 11am, they were always sold out. That, despite a SuperTarget, a Wal-Mart, and at least 5 other big grocery stores within a five mile radius.

If a place that specializes in something like bread, meat, or produce is good, it will have customers and find a way to stay in business.

As for the lines, people do mind those, especially if they have to go to more than one store for their items. If you had to wait for 5-10 minutes at the butcher, baker, etc for every stop, most of your time would be spent waiting in line, not shopping. that was my point on that.

My family (and our neighbors) didn't mind it when we lived in Queens...

As for the paucity of bank branches in poor neighborhoods? They are all being pushed out by the OTB's and "Checks Cashed" establishments! Seriously, you didn't know that!!?! ;)

Not sure if you're only being sarcastic, but the reason banks are scarce in poor neighborhoods is because poor people don't like using them, and rarely have any savings to put away anyway.

Ninjahedge

June 2nd, 2008, 05:04 PM

Like where? Examples please?

3 years ago, driving down to the shore with my in-laws, we stopped at a Wal-Mart (at their suggestion) to go in to pick up something.

They proceeded to go to the grocery to purchase groceries.

Would you like their social security numbers to confirm this? Oh, BTW, they live in Queens! ;)

When I lived in North Carolina for 4 years, we'd occasionally go to a German (or Austrian, not sure which) cafe for brunch on the weekends. They also had a full bakery next door. If you showed up after 11am, they were always sold out. That, despite a SuperTarget, a Wal-Mart, and at least 5 other big grocery stores within a five mile radius.

Did that make the Wal-Mart not sell any baked goods?

Was this in a small, crowded financial area where one buisness had a direct impact on not only anothers sales, but on their rent as well? Nort Carolina, nice as it may be, may not be the best comparitive example to bring up in association with the nature of market influence in more than a simple direct "they have it, well they have it too" manner.

If a place that specializes in something like bread, meat, or produce is good, it will have customers and find a way to stay in business.

Fantasy. I guess all the ones that are leaving Manhattan are doing so because they suck, NOT because rent is going up and they do not believe that they can charge $$$$ for simple product lines.

My family (and our neighbors) didn't mind it when we lived in Queens...

Then you are special. Here's your badge.

maybe you should start a buisness! Professional line-waiters inc!

Not sure if you're only being sarcastic, but the reason banks are scarce in poor neighborhoods is because poor people don't like using them, and rarely have any savings to put away anyway.

Duh! What do you think the ->;)<- was for? Atmosphere? A more blue motif maybe? My sarcasm was meant to showthat the comparison does not directly fit. NYC is a weird financial eco-system. We can't say that just because poor neighborhoods have no banks that they wouldnot only make perfect places for Wal-Mart, but also not directly effect the city.

I do believe that the poorer the area, the more likely you can get a big-box store, but the markets I have been in in these areas have been poor, if not disgusting. Lack of pride on the sides of both the owners AND the patrons lead to raw chicken being left on store shelves, kids being left unattended to cause mess or open/partially consume products, the whole 9 yards.

The whole thing comes right back to the original position that big-box stores do rob the city of its diversity because of two things. One is product availability, which you have rightly argued can be combatted or competed with by superior quality, price or product diversity.

The second is unique to areas like New York which have rare diversity in its markets, but also a captive audience and real estate base. A good example of how this model works is Duane Reed. Other factors go into this, of course, but their aggressive placement has driven all but a few small-names out of the city as a whole, leaving only other giants like CVS to contend with.

A store like Wal-Mart coming in, especially with the high turnover of greenies coming into the city on a daily basis, would eliminate the impetus for these new people to explore, and discover, the diversity in the city. The convenience of having everything one needs to survive in one spot would do the same. Finally, them buying all that space up makes the % of available SF smaller in NYC, driving up rents.

Those 3, along with other factors, certainly do not help keep Manhattan from becoming the biggest outdoor Mall in the US.

Hopefully some form of counterbalance can be legislated that does not HURT people, but at the same time allows the more fragile, but important buisnesses in Manhattan to flourish. What that could be it the hard part.

Any clues on that?

pianoman11686

June 2nd, 2008, 06:34 PM

3 years ago, driving down to the shore with my in-laws, we stopped at a Wal-Mart (at their suggestion) to go in to pick up something.

They proceeded to go to the grocery to purchase groceries.

Would you like their social security numbers to confirm this? Oh, BTW, they live in Queens! ;)

You know exactly what I meant.

Did that make the Wal-Mart not sell any baked goods?

No, of course not. And that's not the point. Of course a privately owned retail bakery will not strive to (or need to) sell as much as a Wal-Mart. They don't have all the overhead. As long as they sell pretty much all that they can bake at capacity, they'll do fine.

Was this in a small, crowded financial area where one buisness had a direct impact on not only anothers sales, but on their rent as well? Nort Carolina, nice as it may be, may not be the best comparitive example to bring up in association with the nature of market influence in more than a simple direct "they have it, well they have it too" manner.

No, not at all. This was on a service road filled with strip malls. Hardee's was across the street.

The reason this place does well is because it offers a unique and high-quality product that some people prefer over the bakery department of the local grocery. Notice I said not "all" people, but "some" - just enough that they can coexist in business along with the big boys. You can look the place up if you like: Guglhupf (http://www.guglhupf.com/).

Fantasy. I guess all the ones that are leaving Manhattan are doing so because they suck, NOT because rent is going up and they do not believe that they can charge $$$$ for simple product lines.

Now you're mixing things up. Are we talking about the crappy grocery stores that try to offer everything and don't make it? Or are we talking about the specialty stores? Reminder: the article was about the groceries.

Then you are special. Here's your badge.

maybe you should start a buisness! Professional line-waiters inc!

No, we weren't special. The fact that on the same block, a Key Food could coexist with a Korean produce vendor, a fishmonger, a bakery, a bagel place, and a butcher is proof that people don't mind going to several places to get their food. Since Key Food offered pretty much everything, but the other places offered only what you would expect at a specialty store, I can only assume residents bought their everyday items at Key Food, and bought a good amount of their produce, fish, meat, etc. at the other places. You see this in neighborhoods all over NY. I just saw it when I paid a visit to Bensonhurst. Is this so hard to believe?

Duh! What do you think the ->;)<- was for? Atmosphere? A more blue motif maybe? My sarcasm was meant to showthat the comparison does not directly fit. NYC is a weird financial eco-system. We can't say that just because poor neighborhoods have no banks that they wouldnot only make perfect places for Wal-Mart, but also not directly effect the city.

No, it does fit. The model applies in every urban area across the country: poorer neighborhoods have the fewest banks per capita. For obvious reasons.

I do believe that the poorer the area, the more likely you can get a big-box store, but the markets I have been in in these areas have been poor, if not disgusting. Lack of pride on the sides of both the owners AND the patrons lead to raw chicken being left on store shelves, kids being left unattended to cause mess or open/partially consume products, the whole 9 yards.

That depends. Manhattan has perhaps more big box stores per capita than do the boroughs (except maybe Staten Island, which I'm not too familiar with.) Wal-Mart has notoriously been shown the boot all over the city, and this has predominantly been in lower income and lower middle class areas. I did a case study a while ago on their attempts to get into Chicago. It would have been in one of the city's poorer neighborhoods as well (though good transportation) and guess what: they were shown the boot.

The whole thing comes right back to the original position that big-box stores do rob the city of its diversity because of two things. One is product availability, which you have rightly argued can be combatted or competed with by superior quality, price or product diversity.

The second is unique to areas like New York which have rare diversity in its markets, but also a captive audience and real estate base. A good example of how this model works is Duane Reed. Other factors go into this, of course, but their aggressive placement has driven all but a few small-names out of the city as a whole, leaving only other giants like CVS to contend with.

A store like Wal-Mart coming in, especially with the high turnover of greenies coming into the city on a daily basis, would eliminate the impetus for these new people to explore, and discover, the diversity in the city. The convenience of having everything one needs to survive in one spot would do the same. Finally, them buying all that space up makes the % of available SF smaller in NYC, driving up rents.

Those 3, along with other factors, certainly do not help keep Manhattan from becoming the biggest outdoor Mall in the US.

I think you're starting to go all over the place with your argument, so I'll just address one comment: a Wal-Mart would NOT drive up local rents. The type of space Wal-Mart needs for a store is hard to find in an urban environment. The supply is already small. Not only would smaller groceries/specialty stores have no need to look for similar space, but if anything, Wal-Mart would probably have more pricing power to keep the rent relatively low.

Hopefully some form of counterbalance can be legislated that does not HURT people, but at the same time allows the more fragile, but important buisnesses in Manhattan to flourish. What that could be it the hard part.

Any clues on that?

That's going down the wrong path, I'm afraid. That kind of legislation rarely stimulates the exact right results without some adverse reactions from the market (read: bad side effects). If you think the solution lies in changing the rules, then NY should start with changing its regulations and tax codes for these businesses. Because it clearly seems to be one of the biggest problems.

stache

June 2nd, 2008, 06:57 PM

if you want to continue this debate, please take it to PM.

brianac

June 8th, 2008, 05:28 AM

Dispatches

Seeing the City Through the Memories of Others

By JAKE MOONEY (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/jake_mooney/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: June 8, 2008

THE storefront, near the corner of Bleecker and Carmine Streets, is not even there anymore. The magazine store to the left, which sells bongs and postcards to the students and tourists of Greenwich Village, is alive and well, and the space to the right is where Joe’s Pizza operated until 2005, when a bigger pizza place replaced it and then closed. What used to be Joe’s is now a chain gelato place, where the line on a muggy day last week stretched out the door.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/06/05/nyregion/joes-650.jpgJoyce Dopkeen/The New York Times
The manager of Joe's Pizza on Carmine Street in the West Village liked the ''authentic'' look of the ''Delivery Guaranteed'' sign painted for the ''Spider-Man'' sequel, so he kept it. But he got the phrase ''in 29 minutes'' erased. No made-for-the-movies promises!

What is missing entirely, though, is the store that fell between the newsstand and Joe’s, a grocery called Vegetable Garden that was shuttered in 2005, too, its square footage absorbed completely into the new pizza place, and, later, the gelato store.

But for Kathryn Adisman, a local writer, Vegetable Garden is still there as a memory: the place where she used to buy canned sardines in olive oil from the Portuguese-born owner, whose family bought the store in 1966. He, in turn, used to reminisce about the time Bleecker Street was a greengrocers’ row, and the vendors worked out of pushcarts.

It can be complicated, sorting through these layers of the past. They are all present, though — in New Yorkers’ heads and, more readily accessible, on cityofmemory.org (http://cityofmemory.org/), a new online venture from the cultural history group City Lore and a design studio called Local Projects. The project’s form is simple enough: a map of the city, where stories, sent in by users, are linked to the places where they happened. Each submission is marked with a little colored dot, an entry into another New Yorker’s narrative.

The cliché, said Jake Barton, Local Projects’ founder, is that there are eight million stories in the city. But really, he said, “it’s kind of more like there’s eight million different cities, each created within each of our memories.”

That, he added, is the idea of the site: “What does the city look like when you’re seeing it not just through an official lens, or your own lens, but seeing it through the lens of what other people have experienced?”
Ms. Adisman’s memories, for example, are organized into a mini-tour called “K’s New York: Going Going Gone.” After Vegetable Garden, the tour takes readers across the street to Trattoria Spaghetto — formerly the Bleecker Luncheonette, where, more than 20 years ago, a college-age Ms. Adisman had a fleeting brush with a mysterious professor.

Other submissions capture the falling leaves in Von Briesen Park, on the eastern shore of Staten Island; the old movie houses that once dotted Jamaica, Queens; and an unexpected encounter with a rollicking dance party at the Roosevelt Hotel in Midtown.

The last stop on Ms. Adisman’s tour is 80 Avenue of the Americas, site of a hole in the ground where the Moondance Diner stood before it was shipped off to Wyoming last year. That site, surrounded by a plywood fence, was full of construction machines last week — not as pretty a sight as the diner’s old glittering sign.

“It’s going to look even worse when it’s built,” a woman in the store across the street said. “Fourteen stories.”

Eventually, the creators of City of Memory hope, the Web site will stack up stories the way a high-rise building stacks up people. Maybe, said Steve Zeitlin, City Lore’s executive director, there will come a time when all the dots on the map overlap and blend together, so a visitor has to zoom in on the map just to tell them apart.
•
He said this while sitting in First Park, a slice of open space at the corner of First Avenue and First Street on the Lower East Side, across the street from City Lore’s office. Years ago, the park was crowded with homeless people and drug dealers, Mr. Zeitlin said; he remembers the owner of City Lore’s building standing at a window and taking out his frustrations with a toy machine gun.

Now there’s a kiosk selling pirogies, itself an echo of the neighborhood’s Eastern European immigrant past.

Maybe the Web site, Mr. Zeitlin mused, could somehow encompass all this texture. “In all of that, to fit so much humanity,” he said. “In so many different layers. It’s almost like a brain. It has so much memory in it that can be called up in so many different ways.”

More from Jake Mooney Dispatches: nytimes.com/cityroom

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/nyregion/thecity/08disp.html?ref=thecity

Copyright 2008 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html) The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)

Ninjahedge

June 9th, 2008, 11:37 AM

Joes was great there. The toppings were something to avoid, but you go in there for a slice of siscilian and it was absolutely great.

The place that replaced it, I think it was the chain "Abatinos" or something, was, well, a chain. I am not surprised it could not saty.

But a chain gelato place? Isn't there one just up the street there? And a baskin Robins around the corner (not as if 31 is a national treasure, mind you....).

Ah well.

At least it isn't a Duane Reed.

Or a bank (knock on wood).

heygirliewhatup

June 10th, 2008, 04:41 AM

Isn't the decline of local retail a national phenomenon? The same thing has gone on in Philadelphia, Chicago, Baltimore, San Francisco, etc etc... I'm not sure this is unique to NYC.

I'm a fan of local businesses over chains overall, but there's one aspect where chains almost always have locals beat: hours. Mom and pop shops are great if they're actually open when you need them. I'm a night owl and I love being able to eat, drink, shop, and do business late, when the indies are all closed up for the night but the neon glows of the multinationals shine bright.

MidtownGuy

June 10th, 2008, 09:59 AM

I totally disagree.

In the City it's often the opposite. What you're describing sounds like somewhere other than NYC, a smaller town with a 7-11 or something.

Here in New York, the independent bodegas, delis, tobacco shops, diners, etc. are much more likely to be open late than Subway Sandwich shop, Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts etc. The chains all close early, usually by 10 pm except for the pharmacies like Duane Reade.
What city do you live in , if I may ask? I was raised upstate, where the neon sign of a multinational convenience store was indeed the only thing open late. On the other hand, New York City has always been known as the city that never sleeps and it was never because of a bunch of chain stores... comparing us to Baltimore or Philadelphia is misleading, those towns were never known for being 24-hour places.

stache

June 10th, 2008, 01:32 PM

but he's from Philly.

heygirliewhatup

June 10th, 2008, 03:35 PM

Sorry, those were 2 random thoughts.

The first thought, that this isn't unique to NY, wasn't meant to directly relate to chains being open later.

I understand that NYC is much more of a 24 hour place than Philly or Baltimore or other US cities, and that mom and pops have always been open later here.

But in other cities chain stores have replaced independent businesses as well. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of retail by city that shows % chains. Is New York really unique in that regard compared to say Chicago or Portland or elsewhere?

Incidentally, I'm in the process of moving to Harlem and I hope you're right that mom and pops stay open, but my impression thus far is that most things close at night except for a couple outposts such as the 24-hour Pathmark, which is a chain. I found the same to be true in North Philly, Irvington, NJ, (other places I've lived) etc. Neighborhood mainstays tend to close early 'cause they remember the "bad old days" and don't want to absorb the costs associated with staying open when they have less customers and more crime. My untested theory at least.

MidtownGuy

June 10th, 2008, 03:52 PM

I agree about the chain-ification of all cities in general.

As far as Harlem, the mom and pop bodegas are what you will find open there until very late hours or even 24 hours. Pathmark too, you're right. And of course the bars/clubs.
Harlem at night is a scene different from other neighborhoods in Manhattan like Chelsea or the East Village though, as I'm sure you're aware or as you will find out with time.

MikeW

June 11th, 2008, 03:18 PM

Anyone here watch Stoler on CUNY TV?

He had a guy on who runs a company that has a lot of property in the village. He was talking about how they were replacing moms and pops that were paying $30/foot, with national luxury brands that are paying $200 at foot (he mentioned Louis Vuitton by name).

With economics like that mom and pop are history.

JCMAN320

June 11th, 2008, 07:39 PM

Nation's biggest produce market weighs New Jersey move

by The Associated Press Wednesday June 11, 2008, 5:23 PM

NEW YORK -- America's biggest wholesale produce market is looking to leave New York -- if the city doesn't help rebuild the aging, outdated facility in the Bronx.

Steven Katzman, co-president of Hunts Point Terminal Produce Cooperative Association, a vendors group, said a meeting is scheduled in late June to consider options for moving the market to New Jersey.

"But we'd rather stay here," he added.

The Hunts Point market supplies 3.3 billion pounds of fruits and vegetables a year worth over $2 billion to more than 10 million consumers, vying with France's giant Rungis produce market just south of Paris for sheer size and volume of sales.

The vendors' cooperative pays more than $4 million a year to use the 125-acre, city-owned facility, which includes about 400,000 square feet of refrigerated warehouses, plus railroad tracks, loading docks and parking for trucks.

Katzman said the 41-year-old market is not up to today's standards, citing as an example its open loading docks without refrigeration.

Katzman said the city's Economic Development Corp. had come up with an initial rebuilding proposal that would cost $750 million, as estimated by a city-hired consultant.

The vendors want the city to contribute about $150 million, with the rest of the money coming from state, federal and private funding. They also believe the project can be done more cheaply, for between $450 million to $500 million.

Katzman said the vendors are frustrated because they have been talking to the city about the project for eight years and have yet to receive a commitment. Their 30-year lease expires in 2011.

EDC officials "listened, and they said they wanted to study this plan," Katzman said. "But they haven't said yes, and we need a new market."

Janel Patterson, an EDC spokeswoman, said the cooperative "has not made us aware of any plans to relocate out of the city."

The Bronx produce market is close to the New Fulton Fish Market, which moved to the Bronx in 2005 from lower Manhattan, where it operated for 180 years.

The side-by-side Bronx locations of the city's two wholesale markets make the South Bronx a one-stop-shopping destination for buyers.

antinimby

July 22nd, 2008, 09:52 PM

A Bank on Every Block

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/07/21/nyregion/chase-533.jpg
The corner of Broadway and 61st Street, shown here at the right side of the picture, would be
occupied by a Chase branch under a deal announced on Monday by the developers of the
building. (Photo: David W. Dunlap/The New York Times)

By David W. Dunlap
July 22, 2008 (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/a-bank-on-every-block/), 12:53 pm

Updated, 3:15 p.m. | There is a Chase branch at Broadway and 58th Street. And there is a Chase branch at Broadway and 62nd. But in between, there is not a single Chase branch on Broadway. Not one. That means that a Chase customer stranded, say, at West 60th Street must walk two whole blocks before those bold blue octagons float reassuringly back into view.

So the lazier residents of the Lincoln Square neighborhood may be cheered by the announcement from the brothers William Lie and Arthur Zeckendorf that they have leased an 11,000-square-foot, two-level space to JPMorgan Chase at Broadway and 61st Street. They call it the “largest retail bank branch lease in Manhattan in 2008.” The branch will occupy one corner of the Zeckendorfs’ full-block 15 Central Park West apartment tower and is to open later this year.

The Zeckendorfs, the third generation of a celebrated real estate family, also announced that they had signed West Elm, a home furnishing store, for 25,000 square feet of space on the first and second floors of the Broadway frontage. That store opening is planned next spring. Best Buy, an electronics and appliance store, is already open at the 62nd Street corner.

Lower Upper West Siders somehow managed to get along for years with two Chase Manhattan branches six blocks apart. But after Chase acquired the Bank of New York’s retail banking business in 2006, a third branch came into the octagonal orbit.

If all these branches stay open, there will be a Chase on every block of Broadway between 61st and 64th Streets. Even in Manhattan, that is an exceptionally high C.A.R. (Chase-to-area ratio) of 1:1.

Might this be too much of a good thing? Thomas A. Kelly, a spokesman for Chase, said that the phenomenon will be short lived. Two of the existing branches will be folded into the new 61st Street office next February or March. “We love Manhattan,” Mr. Kelly said. “We love having branches there. But every two blocks is just too much.”

When 15 Central Park West was under construction, the protective walkway along Broadway was covered in large renderings of the future retail storefronts.

Graffiti artists soon drew dialogue balloons sprouting from the mouths of passers-by in the rendering, with ironic comments along the lines of, “Gee, I sure hope they put a bank branch here” and “Can’t wait ’til they replace my local florist with a bank.”

Not for the first time, the Zeckendorfs got the last laugh.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company

antinimby

July 22nd, 2008, 09:58 PM

A funny (and poignant) commentary from a reader that came along with the above ^ NY Times CityRoom article (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/a-bank-on-every-block/#comment-399092) that I thought I should repost here...

A bank on every corner is the 20th step of gentrification. Everyone knows that.

1.) Begin with a poor and/or low rent neighborhood
2.) Add a dash of Craigslist ads
3.) Add artists, bike messengers, 1 bar & 2 restaurants
4.) Let rise for 2 years
5.) Add trustfunders, hipsters, 1 restaurants & 2 bars. NOTE: One of these must have a “great brunch.”
6.) Let rise for 2 more years.
7.) Sprinkle with a cover story in TONY
8.) Add bloggers
9.) Infuse with young lawyers, accountants and other professionals.
10.) Replace existing businesses with chain stores
11.) Add 5 more bars 10 more restaurants and 10 boutiques.
12.) Replace name of neighborhood with bizarre initials
13.) Add coverage in New York Magazine & Sunday NY Times
14.) Stir in bike lanes & sweatshirts with the neighborhood’s name on it.
15.) Begin NIMBY Lawsuits
16.) Add coverage in weekday NY Times.
17.) Second professional infusion. Include newlyweds and other DINKs.
18.) While the dough rises, the second infusion pushes out most artists
and original owners. All ruffians should be gone by the time the buns are out of the oven.(Approx 3-5 years)
19.) Select primary issue to complain about in the media (strollers, hipsters, etc)
20.) Replace ALL corner retail units with banks.

Duh.

— Posted by Mark in Brooklyn

brianac

July 27th, 2008, 07:39 AM

Urban Studies | Closing Up Shop

Last Days for a Midtown Fixture With an Orchard Street Feel

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/07/27/nyregion/thecity/27stor.span.jpg Sara Krulwich/The New York Times
Judy Fleischman, co-owner of the store that bears her name.

By ANNE MANCUSO
Published: July 27, 2008

EVEN down to its name, Judy’s Better Dresses could have been a fixture on Orchard Street. Everything from its hours (closed on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, and for many years open on Sunday) to its racks jammed with conservative but tasteful suits and blouses and coats, all carrying tags with marked-down prices, gives the store a Lower East Side feel.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/07/27/nyregion/thecity/27stor.2.enlarge.jpgSara Krulwich/The New York Times
After four decades, Judy's Better Dresses will close its doors.

But Judy’s Better Dresses is in Midtown, on West 43rd Street, just off Fifth Avenue. And on Thursday, after four decades in business, the store will close its doors.

These days, the racks are thinning as the owners, Judy and Abe Fleischman, an Orthodox couple from Borough Park, Brooklyn, are holding a going-out-of-business sale. With the expiration of their lease in June, their rent would have doubled, and they say they could not have managed that.

“People are not spending that much on clothes,” said Mrs. Fleischman, a 69-year-old grandmother of 19 and great-grandmother of 15. “The style has changed. Now anything goes.”

The couple, Holocaust survivors who have been married for 51 years, have spent much of their professional lives working as a team, with Mr. Fleischman, 79, handling transactions and Mrs. Fleischman serving as a browser’s dream of a personal shopper well before the term existed.

For the last few months, customers have been dropping by to shop or just to say goodbye. A regular named Sandra Douglas, who works at PricewaterhouseCoopers, the accounting firm, came by to pick up an outfit that Mr. Fleischman had put away for her in the corner of a top clothing rack. “Ninety percent of my clothes I got here,” Ms. Douglas said. “The women who work here know what I like.”

One customer brought Mr. Fleischman flowers; another dropped off a card thanking the couple for “the 30 years that you have dressed me with the sophistication and class that only a piece carefully selected and provided” at the shop could offer. The note ended with a “Shalom” and the hope that the couple would have “much nachas” — Yiddish for pride and joy in one’s family in the years to come.

As Mrs. Fleischman’s family grew, she relied increasingly on a series of female employees, among them a 55-year-old family friend named Zulma.

In April, the woman’s body was discovered in a Jersey City apartment; according to the police, she had been killed by a former boyfriend, who then killed himself.

The crime left a hole in the Fleischmans’ personal and professional lives. “I still look down the street to look for her,” said Mrs. Fleischman.

With less than a week to go before the store closes, there are still clothes to sell. When a visitor told Mrs. Fleischman that she had to return to her office but would be back to browse, Mrs. Fleischman called to her: “Good. I have some nice things for you.”

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