Walking in Mott Haven, The Bronx

[krulltime]

Ok today was a nice day and decided to go out and take lots of photos of this most talk about neighborhood in NYC. I walk alot and try to cover most of the neighborhood. So please enjoy my pics!


Mott Haven, The Bronx:



Mott Haven is a neighborhood of Bronx.

The community was named for Jordan Mott, who built an iron works here in 1828.

Elevation is 36 feet.

Bounded by East 149th Street, Saint Mary's Park, the Harlem River and the East River.

Piano manufacturing was an important industry from the late 1800s to the 1940s

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=1208

Mott Haven was the first neighborhood to give rise to the term "South Bronx". In the 1940s when the Bronx was usually divided into the East Bronx and West Bronx, a group of social workers identified a pocket of poverty in Mott Haven and called it the South Bronx. This pocket of poverty greatly expanded northward, following the post-war phenomenon colloquially referred to as white flight, reaching a peak in the 1970s when the North Bronx-South Bronx boundary reached Fordham Road. Today the North Bronx-South Bronx distinction remains more common than the traditional East Bronx-West Bronx distinction, and some still regard Fordham Road as the boundary.

http://www.answers.com/topic/mott-haven-bronx

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[krulltime]

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[krulltime]

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[krulltime]

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[krulltime]

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[krulltime]

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[infoshare]

Great Tour: thanks.


More Mott Haven history and photos HERE. (http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/motthaven/mott.html)

[sfenn1117]

Great job! I enjoy your neighborhood tours.

[Schadenfrau]

Thanks for that, Krulltime! You actually got a picture of my apartment in there.

[krulltime]

Thanks for that, Krulltime! You actually got a picture of my apartment in there.

Where, where, where?

;) Don't have to tell us. I am glad I did.

[krulltime]

Thanks for the comments guys! :)

[ablarc]

Some parts are definitely more walkable than others: the OLD parts.

Whazzamatta with us nowadays?

[NYatKNIGHT]

I don't think we've seen a photo tour of that neighborhood at this forum yet. Well done!

[Schadenfrau]

Where, where, where?

;) Don't have to tell us. I am glad I did.

Ha, you did the footwork to deserve at least a partial answer: it's in the first five shots.

Did you stop to eat anywhere?

[krulltime]

^ I almost stop at one of the many McDonalds I kept seeing in the area.

But instead I found a place on 149th Street. Can't remeber the name of the place but is in the southside of the street and it was full of people. I think it was either Puerto Rican or Dominican place but I wasn't sure. But anyway I had one meet potatoe and two empanadas. Not as healthy than McDonalds but a much better choice.

[krulltime]

Did you guys also notice that there is not alot of garbage on the sidewalks. Even though you can see many people walking on them. That is a NYC myth that the sidewalks and streets (especially in the South Bronx) are usually full of garbage.

[ablarc]

Did you guys also notice that there is not alot of garbage on the sidewalks.
True, but the vacant lots are another story.

[antinimby]

What's with all the cars parking diagonally/perpendicular to the curb? Is that just a Bronx thing?

I rarely see that in other boroughs except for police cars in front of their own stations.

[ZippyTheChimp]

True, but the vacant lots are another story.There aren't that many.

[Schadenfrau]

There's a grand total of one vacant lot in all of those photos.

Antinimby, I'm pretty sure that the two blocks pictured are the only in the area with that style of parking. One of them is the block that houses the 40th Precinct stationhouse, and the other is in front of the Clocktower Building.

[JazzyJay]

Oh shit thats my old hood. joined just to post my piece.

i grew up in mott haven. just moved out a couple years back. lived there for a long time. at least from 1980 to 2004. you even captured my old shitty block in one or two shots lol. nice pictures.

my only issue would be the first few pictuers are port morris. under the bruckna. no one used to really live down there until a few years ago. now they have "antique" shops. they rippin off the new buyers now becuase everything was cheaper in them same stores until the yuppies started movin in the clocktower lol. they tryin to claim those couple of blocks by the water. nycha claims most of the buildings in the area though. either rehabin them themself or sellin them to affordable housin programs.

oh and the shots with all the stores towards the end, thats the hub more or less. since a lot of it is north of 149. too many pics of 138 too, shoulda had more pics of the pure residential areas. the 140's.

i now work in mott haven. im there pretty much everyday, still have lots of fam in the area as well. place is still the same. lots of poverty and other bullshit. place has a lot of history though. crime and drugs are still a big issue, but they always will be. too many people trying to make fast money. on the 14th, nice day they had two shootings in the afternoon alone. one near right off the hub, another down by millbrook pjs.

as for the vacant lots, there still are a bunch. mostly vacant lots scattered between buildings these days then whole blocks. and still a good number of abandoned buildings which is surprisin being there is such a lack of housing for the poor. but sooner or later they will get remade for low income people. the thing is the abandonded buildings wont never go away completely becuase people still do the arson thing sometimes, buildin conditions get so bad everyone gets evicted, and these are old multifam buildings that tend to catch on fire. so there will always be a few scattered around this area.

as for the trash, thats cuz the city makes building owners and commercial owners clean that shit. if not they get a fine. but at night it always comes back and the streets look filthy. people are dirty as hell. its the same with graffiti. gets cleaned off and always comes back. even with a fine. many buildings are too shitty already to bother.

area overall has a lot of problems. not a great place to live due to the drugs, crime, and of course the povetry. thats why i moved out. pretty much everyone i know who has moved into the area in the last 10-15 years, moved in becuase they were desperate for housing, couldn't afford anything else. the only other reasons have been family. really good shopping though at the hub if you like baggy clothes and sneakers. there aint a lot to see in mott haven unless u like looking at old buildings. but if thats your thing be my guest. the rap clubs are cool, but it's kinda dangerous. lotta roughnecks from the block tryin to start beef to look hard. if you want to go to a hip hop club, look in midtown. just stay out the streets, there be a lot of bullshit. especially around paterson, mott haven, mitchell, millbrook, betances, moore, cypress and 141st, 143rd, and 146-7th. no one got any business hangin out on the streets of the ghetto. mostly good people, but only the criminals be out on the streets. be easy.

btw... mott haven??? lol. its SOUTH BRONX. :D

[JazzyJay]

You call me the N-Word. Maybe you talk like that to your parents, but I find it very insulting.

i do. and my mother says it right back. thats how we talk uptown. get used to it. leave the sensitivity at 95th street.

well i said my piece. i got some interestin stories from the area but forget that shit now. don't want to "offend" anyone else. after reading a few threads i see this is an "extra sensitive" forum population. they aint exactly sweet n cuddly. or politically correct. in fact they are ****in offensive as hell. strait violations of civil rights, human rights and jus ****ed up. they should get u upset. want to make a real difference in these hoods. which aint happinin. the south bx aint sweet thats for sure. same old bullshit. drugs crime poverty. different day same shit.

good luck in lala land. aint kno this was a yuppy/real estate motivated message board. glad i read sum more threads. well nah not really.

[ablarc]

JazzyJay, don' go 'way!

[Derek2k3]

I've been noticing how clean the streets in the outer boroughs are getting too. Suburbs in Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, and parts of New Rochelle now have dirtier streets than many parts of the Bronx. Still I find most of the Bronx visually depressing and a rezoning with design guidelines is needed pronto. The new constuction going up there must be among the worst in the country.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

DAMN! Some people on this board sure are touchy! :eek:

Krulltime - easy man...talking about banning someone just because they offended you. Is that the way you think the forum should be? Someone says something you find offensive and it's time to ban them? What happens when you say something someone else finds offensive? I guess we won't be seeing you around anymore if that happens, right? And how does offending you make him a troll? Take it easy bro, I don't think Jazzy Jay meant you any harm, but I guess you must live in a world where everyone says please and thank-you and speaks civilly to everyone, and no one ever unintentionally offends anyone.

Anyways, I just wanted to talk about my own experiences walking around Mott Haven. Last summer I was in NYC, and I walked all the way from the Hub through Mott Haven, eventually making my way through Longwood all the way up to East Tremont.

My walk through Mott Haven was pretty interesting though, and I agree with Jazzy Jay that you should have taken some shots of the more residential streets north of 138th st. There's actually quite a few old brownstones left on 139th and all the way up to 144th between Willis Ave. and Brook. Apparently, the whole area was full of brownstones until the nearby projects were built and they were torn down to make way. You can also see that there used to be a lot more brownstones even on those streets where brownstones remain - those ugly new townhouses that are popping up all over Melrose, Mott Haven, Longwood and Morrisania interrupt brief stretches of old brownstones on 139th, 142nd, 144th. And, as far as vacant lots go, there are still lots of them on these side streets, so those who say there aren't many left in Mott Haven probably haven't taken a stroll off the main drags. Just look at the blocks south of St. Mary's Park! There's gotta be as many vacant lots as there are occupied ones.

Also, just to be anal, those first few photos technically aren't Mott Haven - that's Port Morris.

I believe the "pocket of poverty" you described as existing in Mott Haven when the term "South Bronx" originally became coined in the 1940's was the very southernmost section south of 137th St. all the way to the Harlem River. This was, by most standards, a very small section of the neighborhood, and it is pretty amazing that that tiny pocket of poverty would grow until it engulfed practically every block from Soundview to Highbridge, and from the Harlem River all the way up to Fordham Rd. in a matter of thirty years or so. Only in America could a perfectly fine urban neighborhood experience such pervasive decline in such a short period of time. Whenever I walk through the Bronx, it makes me so sad to see all the vacant lots and ugly new developments, and to think of all the old buildings that used to stand there, and all the lives those lost buildings represent. All the history erased by fire and poverty and plummeting property values :(

I love the Bronx, but it's hard for me to walk around and not feel a certain sense of despair. America the beautiful has some really ugly aspects, and it's inner city neighborhoods are one of those ugly aspects that make me angry as hell, but also sad, nostalgic, and pained by a horrible sense of loss.

Respect to all those who lived in the South Bronx during these years of destruction. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to watch your home be destroyed building by building, block by block until it was just a mere shell of what it used to be.

peace

BL, BC

[JazzyJay]

i wasnt gonna post but i got one more thing to say. good post above mah du and the only reason i decide to spread this lil bit of knowledge.

the problems in the south bx like in ghettos all over the usa have not been solved. drugs, crime and of course poverty are all still big problems. only reason you dont see endless shells in the south bx is all the immigrants coming into the city. they are moving into all the shells everyone else got the hell out of when they got the chance to. they live where no one else wants to, the cheapest, shittiest parts of the city. you think immigrants want to live in shitty tenements, no. but they use it as a steppin stone and the shitty areas are enough motivation.

there was a time when the south bx was only southern african americans and puerto rican. now you have mexicans, dominicans, some equadorians, jamaicans, haitans, and africans.

the prs and the african americans are still getting the hell out while they still can, they are the ones gettin killed the most. some take the risk and hold out in the many pjs in the area. some so deep in ghetto life they dont give a ****. if you took all the other nationalities out, you would see the murder rate to be very high among these two groups. also there would be a hell of a lot more abandonded buildings without the immigrants.

just becuase people live in these new buildings, and these new renovated buildings, does not mean the problems are gone. there are still way too many killings. way to many guns, drugs. too much violence. broken families, failing schools, poverty which is by far always been the biggest issue in the south bx. too many problems. its even starting to effect the younger immigrants. now you see mexican gangs forming to defend against the prs and blacks. dominican gangs like ddp. gettin into the prison cycle the prs and blacks find themselves stuck in.

place still the ghetto, needs a lot of help. heres a vid of the kind of sad shit you see on the streets of south bx. the location of this vid was accually photographed on this thread. drugs, crime and poverty are a part of everyday life in the south bx.

138th street and brook ave after a girl was murdered by a stray bullet. this is the kind of shit we deal with on a daily basis. the cops aint make things easier, arrestin people seeking answers, street justice which is the only justice you can find out here. then everyone came out their buildings tryin to jump in. free they friends and family. made a big ass riot. like if people dont hate nypd enough out here. but thas the job, wat can you do. justice is swift on the streets of the ghetto. usually in the form of bullets. they say people who do evil things go to hell, but sometimes the way we live is hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01bQ_tYAiLI

[antinimby]

the prs and the african americans are still getting the hell out while they still can, they are the ones gettin killed the most. some take the risk and hold out in the many pjs in the area. some so deep in ghetto life they dont give a ****. if you took all the other nationalities out, you would see the murder rate to be very high among these two groups. also there would be a hell of a lot more abandonded buildings without the immigrants.Sounds to me like maybe the PR's and AA's should learn a lesson or two from the immigrants, no?

Get rid of the poverty mentality, put down the guns, throw away the drugs, work hard, fix up the buildings.

They're doing it (and they have the disadvantage of not speaking English), why can't us? Right?

[krulltime]

DAMN! Some people on this board sure are touchy! :eek:

Krulltime - easy man...talking about banning someone just because they offended you. Is that the way you think the forum should be? Someone says something you find offensive and it's time to ban them? What happens when you say something someone else finds offensive? I guess we won't be seeing you around anymore if that happens, right? And how does offending you make him a troll?

He is a troll. He only sign up to respond to this thread and several others with his informative crap. Like he knows the area becuase he claims he lived there or works there. Everyone knows how low crime has gotten in this neighborhood. Streets and sidewalks looks cleaner, there aren't too much graffity or burn out empty buildings to look for. There are several vacant lots. But is obvious why there are there. The neighborhood doesn't look like is been abandon. Also there are too many pics I could post and I post what I found interesting.

He must to know before he sign in that insults are not allowed. Do you want him to say fagot the next time around? He is insult is a welcoming sign of things to come in the future. Maybe he shouldn't be banned. But I am glad I got his attention. Oh and I would never insult another member. No matter how pissed I am. I know I might get banned.

[antinimby]

By the way, Jazzy you sound like you have an inordinate amount of first hand info and I really appreciate your filling us all in on it. Please stick around.

[ZippyTheChimp]

He is a troll.I see no evidence of that. He only got hostile after you got in his face. Ease up a bit.

I know I might get banned.It takes a lot more to get banned.

[krulltime]

^ Ok fine. I only have an opinion with my observation of the neighborhood. But I shouldn't be called a nigga, fagot or whatever people will like to call me. It just doesn't sound fair.

I can't even believe you wouldn't even give him a red flag. So much for keeping order in a friendly website. Fine let everyone next time around insult eachother for getting on anyone's face. There is no harm in that right.

[lofter1]

I've personally been "warned" for using far more benign wordage ...

Not that I agree with the "parenting" in either situation :cool:

[ablarc]

But I shouldn't be called a nigga ... Fine let everyone next time around insult eachother for getting on anyone's face. There is no harm in that right.
I feel your pain, krull, and I agree that we shouldn't insult each other.

Need to point out, however: 1. when an African-American uses the term, it isn't nearly as pejorative as it would be if you or I applied it (in fact, in the 'hood, it can be used almost as a term of endearment or affection); 2. the term doesn't fit you as a racial epithet, I believe; so why get so bent out of shape over it? :)

[krulltime]

^ Cause he doean't know what I look like I am sure. What if I was black and what if he was white. Who knows right? This is an anonymous website and anybody can pretend. Especially newbies like this guy. He said it to insult me I can tell. So if he is not warned then next time he wil still use it or other insulting words as he pleases. That is why good moderators act on this quickly. You might say I am over reacting but hey got to say what I feel.

[ablarc]

What if I was black and what if he was white.
Well, he certainly uses vocabulary and syntactical quirks to convey the impression that he's black. Wonder if he actually is ... ?

(Hmmm ... he's not all that consistent about it ... )



And I agree: he does sound a lot like Lokkito.

[krulltime]

And I agree: he does sound a lot like Lokkito.


If it is Lokkito then he knows better.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I can't even believe you wouldn't even give him a red flag. So much for keeping order in a friendly website.When I became aware of the situation, JazzyJay had made this post. At that point, I concluded that he defused the conflict - or maybe, misunderstanding. I measured him by his first and last posts.

Should the moderators maintain order, or should we rigidly hand out punishments?

[krulltime]

Should the moderators maintain order, or should we rigidly hand out punishments?

I say both. But you know what, I will let my issue go to make you happy. Pretty much I can tell I lost the Battle of fairness. But I am still dissapointed at the form of action.

[lofter1]

Should the moderators maintain order, or should we rigidly hand out punishments?

A degree of order: Yes

Rigidity: No

Messiness and interplay between posters should not be discouraged.

[pianoman11686]

If I can just add my two cents here...

I didn't think JazzyJay's initial response was out of line at all, for three reasons:

1. Ask anyone who comes into contact with the N-word on a regular basis, and they will assure you that there's a BIG difference between the friendlier version that ends with an "a," and the more demeaning, full-of-historical-implications version that ends with "er".

2. He could have thrown in a real piece of foul language, but instead chose to replace it with "****." A sign of restraint.

3. Krulltime straight out accused him of being someone else, with no proof whatsoever. It was purely speculative. I don't know Lokkitto, but it definitely wasn't submachine.

Let's just all chill out about this. Where's Ninjahedge when you need him most? :D

[krulltime]

Let's just all chill out about this.

I already chill out about this. No need to keep talking about this. It seems that I was wrong the way I deffended myself. JazzyJay or whoever else is welcome back to call somebody 'Nigga' or whatever they want.

[Stern]

I've personally been "warned" for using far more benign wordage ...

Not that I agree with the "parenting" in either situation :cool:

You were warned for personal insults. Read the forum rules of conduct, personal insults are not allowed, if you have a problem with moderation this is the wrong thread to vent, start a thread at Forum Issues or send a PM.

I tried to clean up the personal insults in this thread the best that I could, that said continue the discussion, South Bronx et al.

[lofter1]

I wasn't venting.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

Jazzy Jay, hopefully you're still around...

I just wanted to hear about some of you personal experiences living in the BX. What part of Mott Haven did you live in? During what years? I still haven't met many people who can tell me about their own personal experiences during the 1970's and 80's in the BX, because everyone I know from the neighborhood was too young to really remember anything. Still, I'd love to hear your stories about living in the Bronx, and I hope you come back to tell us about your life there.

peace

BL, BC

[rincony]

Wow these photos are so amazing! I though the Bronx was full of garbage, graffity and abandonment! What happened? Anyone knows if I can find an apartment there for less then $800? I am from Venezuela but I am moving from Philadelphia. Lived there for 8 years. I hate that city. I can see people speak spanish in the Bronx by some ot the signs there.

thank you for the photos krulltime. :cool:

[Schadenfrau]

As I said on the other thread, there are apartments for that price in some parts of the Bronx, but you're not likely to find anything in the areas posted.

[MidtownGuy]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/429576680_918166d7c6_o.jpg

Man, I love this little row. When I imagine these fixed-up...WOW!

So much good stuff here, krulltime.
I wish they could do something to beautify the city's project towers. Impossible task I guess.

[Schadenfrau]

One of those row houses was going for 600K a few years ago. I imagine it's fixed up on the inside, but it's hard to do much with the exterior.

My money is on the table if the corner building with the Royal Tenenbaums-style tower ever hits the market.

[rincony]

As I said on the other thread, there are apartments for that price in some parts of the Bronx, but you're not likely to find anything in the areas posted.

How much to live here? :confused: I want closer to manhatan. :D

[Schadenfrau]

The neighborhood pictured on this thread is close to Manhattan, and you probably won't be able to find anything for $800 there. For that price, you will have to live farther away from Manhattan.

[JazzyJay]

Sounds to me like maybe the PR's and AA's should learn a lesson or two from the immigrants, no?

Get rid of the poverty mentality, put down the guns, throw away the drugs, work hard, fix up the buildings.

They're doing it (and they have the disadvantage of not speaking English), why can't us? Right?

it aint that easy. too many family members in tha prison system. ask any kid in the south bx and he will tell you his father, or his brotha or his cuzin been locked up, is locked up. everyone got someone close to them locked up.

so prison aint helpin and a lot of these kids get locked up young, and they get harder in prison. they do dumb shit like a snatch a cell phone, and get locked up wit niggas that rob people at gunpoint.

then you got poverty. everyone strugglin to make money. everyone want new things. jordans. 8 ball jackets. ipod. all that shit. aint no jobs for these people where you can have that shit. cant have a nice whip on minimum wage. only hustlin.so everyone hustlin for that extra. from sellin weed here and there to crack and heron 24/7.

then you got the gang mentality. kids who want a rep or respect and hold shit down for the block. someone who got beef comes through the block and the whole hood jumps them, becuase they stick together out here. That kind of shit gets you locked up or killed.

people stuck is endless drug addiction. and they kids born addicted or havin addictive qualities. drugs bein that escape. blowin all they money. odin and diein.

the poverty mentality in the hood just aint about bein poor its a lot of different things that makes it hard to live out here. throwin down the guns aint an option if the other side aint.

the immigrants got the advantage of not bein stuck in the system. but they kids is ****in up. like the young mexicans startin up gangs to fight back against the ricans and blacks robbin them all the time. poverty always finds its way to suck you down. the hood always finds a way to take you down wit it.

the city can renovate and build all the new buildins they want but the fact is the problems that was here before aint just gonna go poof. every immigrant that comes to the south bx now got that mentality to get out. work hard as they can. but they kids loose that drive. they get caught in the system, failin schools, and all the other bullshit. it brings them down.

in the south bx the only reason the so many buildins aint empty is the immigrants. now what happens when they start leavin. the blacks and puerto ricans been leavin for a long time now.they know the deal. if blacks and ricans was the only ones left like it was before the 90s it would be pretty much empty. all the hood brings u is that ghetto lifestyle of drama and bullshit. u think mexicans dream of bein in the south bronx when they come to the usa? they dream of the suburbds and big houses and money. the hood is just a obsticle in the way. always has been. at least u got that foot in the door though, that chance to make it out the hood and u aint always stuck like in other countries. but in america theres always gonna be hoods as theres always gonna be rich people. captilist society. thats the way it works. and not everyone makes it past that obsticle.

Jazzy Jay, hopefully you're still around...

I just wanted to hear about some of you personal experiences living in the BX. What part of Mott Haven did you live in? During what years? I still haven't met many people who can tell me about their own personal experiences during the 1970's and 80's in the BX, because everyone I know from the neighborhood was too young to really remember anything. Still, I'd love to hear your stories about living in the Bronx, and I hope you come back to tell us about your life there.

peace

BL, BC

yea i used to live in betances pjs between brook and saint anns ave. moved in when they were pretty new. that newness lasted only for a limited time as all the "hoodlems" from the area moved in as well. i wasnt no saint, but i wasnt no killa or junky either and these are the people im describin. i recently moved out becuase of all the bullshit in the buildin. place never changes. finally had the option to leave. same young kids selliin drugs in front the buildin. havin shootouts and shit, left a young puerto rican kid dead behind the buildin this past summer. there was a group of lil kids from one buildin that would jump people for no reason all the time. bad ass little kids doing random crime and phone snatches and shit. lil ****s knew not to **** wit me. then up brook ave on the corner shit was always hot, like 30 people all with drugs and guns and shit all night long. blastin music doin stickups and shit. the junkies was leavin syringes in the hall way, stairways. graffiting the place up. breaking everything breakable. ****in kids is unbeliveable. i still live in a shity area but now its a townhouse so at least the block is decent. i can go home, lock the gate and thats it. i have enough bullhshit at work.

as for growin up here. same old shit. just survivin. lotta bullshit out here. drugs money. its no wonder the kids get attracted. drug dealer in my buildin had a ferrari, sold it just as quick though. back when i first moved in area was pretty abandoned. not really much. the pjs was the only life on that block brook ave. lots of vacant lots where people just dumped shit, especially cars. lots of abandoned buildins after all the arson. then they rehabilitated a bunch of buildins near saint marys park in the mid 80s. all of them nycha. brought tons of new poor people into the area. in the 80's shit got crazy with crack. lotta young niggas killin each other on the streets over that shit. killed families, killed a lot of our people. that lasted well into the 90s and they still sell a lot of crack today although not nearly as much as in the past. people just wised up. late 80s early 90s was vicious though. everyone was hooked on crack. so many people gettin merked blocks got nicknames like, bloody cypress.

these days lots of the same shit. in the buildins that i work in lots of drug dealing. shit is crazy. wild blocks though. especially 139 141 over by cypress and beekman. there was a riot over the summer over an arrest, had police from all over the city came in. went over the air as citywide mobilzation. whole buildins came out, people gettin locked up in chains. arrest was over a fight in the street. i just dont deal with it. i hear shots and it goes over the radio, thats it. no need to put my life in danger over this bullshit out here. the streets always full of bullshit. a lot of the killin and shooting is over beef though. usually stupid shit, money or drugs. much of the area is like this, but certain blocks are especially bad.

u do see ****ed up shit in the south bx though. i seen a women get snatched off the street and dragged in abandoned buildings. drug dealers going on the roof of the mitchel pjs and shooting the church bells across the street. precicnt is across the street too lol. people jamming project elevators with refigerators and matresses. to stop the cops from respondin quick. shit, i seen these things come off rooftops. u see some crazy and ****ed up shit. what you expect though wit all the drugs and poverty. so yea i do have some good stories.

one thing i always say is. theres a lot of good people live in the south bx. but those ****as you see chillin on the stoop or cornas at night, that aint them. they sellin or plottin. lol.

if you got any questions holla at me. u seem cool so just ask. i work with a lot of cops from the 40 too so whatever i dont know, they probably seen. some old school niggas and a lotta rooks.

One of those row houses was going for 600K a few years ago. I imagine it's fixed up on the inside, but it's hard to do much with the exterior.

My money is on the table if the corner building with the Royal Tenenbaums-style tower ever hits the market.

anyone who buys on that block better rent it out. they surrounded by 3 nasty pjs. mitchel, paterson and mott haven. 141 and alexander/third ave is crazy. the nypd chopper "ghetto bird lol" is always flyin around search light on that block and they always shootin or somethin. my cusin live out there, and he sells crack so you already know. mad niggas hang out around there too. most of those brownstones is room for rent though. only like 2 abandoned b-stones left on that block .its one long quiet block surrounded by crazy pjs on all sides. and all that pj bullshit runs right over alexander. shit is in the middle of 3 constantly beefin projects.

matta fact i just found a video from that exact block. so you can see the project bullshit first hand. kinda boring though talkin and talkin and talkin. mostly shit from the patterson side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvdnxtpspL0

same old bullshit. they need videos to stop this violence, not promote it. these niggas is just braggin that they hustlin and shit. kids see this shit on the streets and do the same thing. then another ****ed up generation. and the cycle continues.

Here is a picture from that corner too if ya skip the video. paterson pjs.

http://www.urbandecay.ca/Files/Content/New%20York%20City/Bronx/Bronx/Public%20Housing/paterson5.jpg

[Bright Lights, Big City]

I was going to say the same thing as Jazzy Jay, but he beat me to it - anyone who's going to pay 600K for that place better be renting it out, because that's going to be the biggest mistake of their life if they move in there for that kind of money. That block is one of the hottest in the neighborhood for sure, forget about the police precinct just down the way (visible in the photo). All those massive PJ's make that tiny little precinct house look like a rabbit den surrounded by a pack of wolves: sometimes the wolves are well-fed and ignore the rabbits' den, but when the wolves are hungry, that den is going on lock-down and anyone who thinks they're safe because they spent 600K on a nice old brownstone on "Dentist's Row" has another thing coming to them.

I've walked down that block twice in the past few years - certainly not enough to say I know what it's all about - but those nice old brownstones didn't do much to convince me I was in a safe place. All the people chillin' out on the corners staring at me, the projects looming large on every side told me those brownstones are relics from another age - nothing more, nothing less. Certainly not some sign of gentrification, regardless of how much they're worth.


As far as not being able to get an apartment in the neighborhood for $800 or less, c'mon! It may be close to Manhattan, but it's also one of the poorest neighborhoods in America - you think most people who live there can afford to rent a studio for over $800? I know that the project-dwellers do a lot to bring down per capita income because many of them are on social assistance, but there are certainly many spots to be had for $800 or less outside the PJ's - they may not be very nice, but they're out there. You can even get a spot for less than that in Morningside Heights around A-dam. How do I know that? Because I've been to one, though I certainly wouldn't want to live there. And it wasn't rent-controlled or anything, just a proper shithole owned by the guy's cousin.

But I've seen apartments for $800 and less advertised in the South Bronx on the internet before - still, the best way to find them is go to the neighborhood and ask around. You could find something that price in Mott Haven, Melrose, Morrisania, Longwood, Hunts Point, Grand Concourse, Highbridge, Tremont, Soundview, which are all pretty close to Manhattan. But to rincony - just because it looks okay in the photos doesn't mean it is okay. Still, many parts of Philly are much worse these days, so hopefullly you know the deal if you're thinking of moving to the Bronx. Speaking Spanish might help a bit, but I've learned that ethnicity is much more important in the American inner city - don't matter if you speak the same language; if you're a Dominican or Chicano, the PR's probably ain't gonna like you any better than if you were a yuppie WASP. And that's true vice-versa as well. Just because blacks and PR's often live in the same hoods doesn't mean they like each other. The US is strange like that - it's easier for people to hate on each other than to come together and fight against the real enemy - the system that makes them all poor.

Anyways, I do have a lot of stuff I want to ask you about Jazzy Jay, but I don't have the time right now. Hopefully you'll stick around for a while so we can chat a little more, and you can share some more of your knowledge and experiences in the South Bronx.

peace

BL, BC

[Schadenfrau]

Does anyone talking so tough actually live there?

[Frog1]

Hi and thank you very much for the wonderful pictures Krulltime! It was kind of neat to see all the places of this vibrant neighborhood. Being an ex-Bronxite and former Verizon Tech, it brought back many memories. Some good, some downright scary! Thanks again for the photos.:)

[antinimby]

the city can renovate and build all the new buildins they want but the fact is the problems that was here before aint just gonna go poof. every immigrant that comes to the south bx now got that mentality to get out. work hard as they can. but they kids loose that drive. they get caught in the system, failin schools, and all the other bullshit. it brings them down.
in the south bx the only reason the so many buildins aint empty is the immigrants. now what happens when they start leavin. the blacks and puerto ricans been leavin for a long time now.they know the deal. if blacks and ricans was the only ones left like it was before the 90s it would be pretty much empty. all the hood brings u is that ghetto lifestyle of drama and bullshit. u think mexicans dream of bein in the south bronx when they come to the usa? they dream of the suburbds and big houses and money. the hood is just a obsticle in the way. always has been. at least u got that foot in the door though, that chance to make it out the hood and u aint always stuck like in other countries. but in america theres always gonna be hoods as theres always gonna be rich people. captilist society. thats the way it works. and not everyone makes it past that obsticle.Let me tell you who's going to come in when the people you say will leave (if they do): the yuppies.

I'm sure you have seen that elsewhere in the city, like Harlem, Washington Heights, Hell's Kitchen, LES, etc.

No doubt once this happens, crime and poverty will drop further and become like the rest of the city. This is a major explanation for the 180° turnaround in the city from the crime-ridden early 90's and the current decade we're in.

We went from being on the top of the list with the highest no. of murders by a wide margin to now being the safest big city. You are now safer (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_06.html#n) here than in Phoenix, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Sacramento or Orlando just to name a few!

Who would've thought that just ten years ago?

So you see, the problem is not so much the physical place (the Bronx) as it is the people there, or more precisely, their mindset.

All they'd be doing is bringing the same problems they had before to a new place. The same poverty and wretchedness will still follow them wherever they go, except now it'll just be in the suburbs or out-of-state.

The best hope to break out of all of that is to get out of that poverty and hopelessness mentality.

You yourself said that the immigrants don't have that problem but their children are beginning to pick up that bad influence. Only difference between the parents and their kids? What's inside their minds.

The poor people in the Bronx is living within the richest city in the richest country on earth. Take advantage of that asset.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
A big flaw in the argument: Not supported by statistics.

Look at the historic data for change in crime (1993).

40 Precinct (Mott Haven)
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pdf/chfdept/cs040pct.pdf

Compare with statistics for areas that did not significantly change or already gentrified.

West Village
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pdf/chfdept/cs006pct.pdf

Gravesend - Sheepshead Bay
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pdf/chfdept/cs061pct.pdf

Bayside
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pdf/chfdept/cs111pct.pdf

Similar results. Clearly, something else beside demographics was at work.

[antinimby]

There is no flaw at all.

Your point being that Mott Haven saw a steep decline in crime similar to other non-impoverished sections of the city means that gentrification played no role.

Well, you did not look at immigrants. As Jazzy alluded to, the group that "gentrified" this part of the Bronx are not yuppies, but immigrants.

That might very well be the explanation--so yes, demographics did play a big role.

Of course, the NYPD will want to take credit for it and they do deserve some of the credit but the major impetus to the decline in crime is the change in the population make-up.

And when the yuppies (if they ever do) come in, the crime will drop even further more.

[ZippyTheChimp]

So how do you explain similar drops in crime in areas that were already gentrified? You can go through every precinct in the city, and you will find similar results.

Crime in my neighborhood dropped 74%. It was thoroughly yuppified in 1993.

If the answers were as simple as you suggest, other cities that have been studying the New York phenomenon for years have yet to figure it out.

A lot more complex than you suggest.

[antinimby]

Many of those previously gentrified areas that you are talking about (and gave links to) had something like 11 murders in 1990. They now have 3, a decline of 75%. Compare that with 72 for Mott Haven.

If there should be a domestic triple murder-suicide in Bayside, then those statistics will spike. Does that mean Bayside all of a sudden is getting dangerous? No.

Statistics can be misleading and can only be used if the sample size and other factors were fairly equal, which in comparing Mott Haven and Gravesend is clearly not.

Also, I did not say demographics were the sole reason for the drop in crimes. I believe it is a major reason but not the only. There are a myriad number of reasons like availability of guns, less drug use, better policing, etc.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Many of those previously gentrified areas that you are talking about (and gave links to) had something like 11 murders in 1990. They now have 3, a decline of 75%. Compare that with 72 for Mott Haven.

I wasn't comparing the safety of Mott Haven with Bayside. The drop in Bayside, in fact citywide, can't be explained by your changed in demographics, since these areas had stable populations during that time. Crime should have remained constant.

Again, the answer is not as simple as you state. Other forces were at work.

[antinimby]

But you were comparing Mott Haven and Bayside and Gravesend and the West Village. Isn't that why you gave the links?

Anyway, despite what you may have thought of Bayside, it itself has seen a significant turnover in its ethnic makeup.

I'll leave the statistics for someone to lookup but judging from my observations, the area has become more Asian as have Gravesend. Throw in the small number of crimes there to begin with and those crime numbers aren't reliable.

Now once again, I am not saying that demographics alone is the cause but it certainly has played a role, maybe even a major one.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I understand what you are saying, but I wasn't comparing (I shouldn't have used that word), but showing the similarity among these precincts.

Wealth coming into an area may reduce crime, but it's clear that since it has declined at an equal rate in areas that have changed, remain stable, and remain impoverished indicates something else is more significant.

In my opinion, the biggest contributor is police work.

[ablarc]

So how do you explain similar drops in crime in areas that were already gentrified? You can go through every precinct in the city, and you will find similar results.
Are crimes mostly attributable to folks who live in the neighborhood where the crime takes place?

If I were a mugger, I'd do my mugging where the wallets are fat, then go back home wherever.

[ZippyTheChimp]

In most violent crimes, the perp and the victim have some knowledge of each other.

[ablarc]

In most violent crimes, the perp and the victim have some knowledge of each other.
Wouldn't make sense to mug somebody who knew you.

But I guess it would make sense to mug a perfect stranger in your 'hood.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Are you focusing on muggings, or overall crime?

[ablarc]

Are you focusing on muggings, or overall crime?
Common form of violent crime. Probably a couple of hundred for every murder.

You only get murdered once.

[ZippyTheChimp]

But the stats for each category of crime are consistent

And if what you say is true, then areas where criminals live would have low crime rates.

[ablarc]

For me, a fairly hard thing to explain would be low street crime in a rich neighborhood.

You'd have to surmise the locals did no street crime at all.

[ZippyTheChimp]

It's sometimes hard to draw conclusions, but most rich people don't commit street crimes.

First official murder in BPC was a man killing his wife, sparked by resentment that her career was heading up, and his was going in the other direction.

The murder weapons were a meat tenderizer and a bottle of wine. :rolleyes:

[JazzyJay]

I was going to say the same thing as Jazzy Jay, but he beat me to it - anyone who's going to pay 600K for that place better be renting it out, because that's going to be the biggest mistake of their life if they move in there for that kind of money. That block is one of the hottest in the neighborhood for sure, forget about the police precinct just down the way (visible in the photo). All those massive PJ's make that tiny little precinct house look like a rabbit den surrounded by a pack of wolves: sometimes the wolves are well-fed and ignore the rabbits' den, but when the wolves are hungry, that den is going on lock-down and anyone who thinks they're safe because they spent 600K on a nice old brownstone on "Dentist's Row" has another thing coming to them.

I've walked down that block twice in the past few years - certainly not enough to say I know what it's all about - but those nice old brownstones didn't do much to convince me I was in a safe place. All the people chillin' out on the corners staring at me, the projects looming large on every side told me those brownstones are relics from another age - nothing more, nothing less. Certainly not some sign of gentrification, regardless of how much they're worth.


As far as not being able to get an apartment in the neighborhood for $800 or less, c'mon! It may be close to Manhattan, but it's also one of the poorest neighborhoods in America - you think most people who live there can afford to rent a studio for over $800? I know that the project-dwellers do a lot to bring down per capita income because many of them are on social assistance, but there are certainly many spots to be had for $800 or less outside the PJ's - they may not be very nice, but they're out there. You can even get a spot for less than that in Morningside Heights around A-dam. How do I know that? Because I've been to one, though I certainly wouldn't want to live there. And it wasn't rent-controlled or anything, just a proper shithole owned by the guy's cousin.

But I've seen apartments for $800 and less advertised in the South Bronx on the internet before - still, the best way to find them is go to the neighborhood and ask around. You could find something that price in Mott Haven, Melrose, Morrisania, Longwood, Hunts Point, Grand Concourse, Highbridge, Tremont, Soundview, which are all pretty close to Manhattan. But to rincony - just because it looks okay in the photos doesn't mean it is okay. Still, many parts of Philly are much worse these days, so hopefullly you know the deal if you're thinking of moving to the Bronx. Speaking Spanish might help a bit, but I've learned that ethnicity is much more important in the American inner city - don't matter if you speak the same language; if you're a Dominican or Chicano, the PR's probably ain't gonna like you any better than if you were a yuppie WASP. And that's true vice-versa as well. Just because blacks and PR's often live in the same hoods doesn't mean they like each other. The US is strange like that - it's easier for people to hate on each other than to come together and fight against the real enemy - the system that makes them all poor.

Anyways, I do have a lot of stuff I want to ask you about Jazzy Jay, but I don't have the time right now. Hopefully you'll stick around for a while so we can chat a little more, and you can share some more of your knowledge and experiences in the South Bronx.

peace

BL, BC

Yeah man, Alexander and 141 is crazy. same wit 137/138 and alexander a lil bit down. shit is crazy and the buildin across the street from the precicnt is a major crack/heron spot. worse buildin in the whole damn pj is across the street from the precinct lol. they merked some nigga in the lobby last summer and shot some crack head bitch he was talkin to. just lit him up rip.

and for the rent, most of the area is projects. from betances to beekman. paterson, mitchel, mott haven and moore. millbrook and all the pjs scattered around. and all teh buildings gettin rehabilitated is affordable housing so there is a income cap. city makin the south bx one big ass housing project the way things are going. lotta housing for low income and poor people. its a good thing there is housing for the homeless but to me the plan is kick the poor out uptown manhattan into the bx.

and i agree wit the hatin. blacks especially be hatin on mexicans. dominicans be hatin on blacks. puerto ricans on dominicans. lotta beef from within. got mexicans jumpin and robbin mexicans now. gangs like ddp startin unecessary shit. old gangs like latin kings and bloods. ****ed up shit but i dont discriminate. at least i try not to.

anythin u wanna kno jus post it.

Let me tell you who's going to come in when the people you say will leave (if they do): the yuppies.

I'm sure you have seen that elsewhere in the city, like Harlem, Washington Heights, Hell's Kitchen, LES, etc.

No doubt once this happens, crime and poverty will drop further and become like the rest of the city. This is a major explanation for the 180° turnaround in the city from the crime-ridden early 90's and the current decade we're in.

We went from being on the top of the list with the highest no. of murders by a wide margin to now being the safest big city. You are now safer (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_06.html#n) here than in Phoenix, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Sacramento or Orlando just to name a few!

Who would've thought that just ten years ago?

So you see, the problem is not so much the physical place (the Bronx) as it is the people there, or more precisely, their mindset.

All they'd be doing is bringing the same problems they had before to a new place. The same poverty and wretchedness will still follow them wherever they go, except now it'll just be in the suburbs or out-of-state.

The best hope to break out of all of that is to get out of that poverty and hopelessness mentality.

You yourself said that the immigrants don't have that problem but their children are beginning to pick up that bad influence. Only difference between the parents and their kids? What's inside their minds.

The poor people in the Bronx is living within the richest city in the richest country on earth. Take advantage of that asset.

yuppies? nah i read whites is still leavin nyc its been like that for a long time now. at least it seem like it here in the bx. mad white areas in the bx is now black or spanish. recent shit too. areas like morris park was all once all white. north bx like williamsbridge was all white. now williamsbridge is the ghetto and all black. and morris park is mixed now. only area i see more whites is port morris by the water those are yuppies. and pelham parkway they albanian. they ghetto though i gotta give them tho. they got gangs like a.b.i. takin on the bloods and the kings. also the wannabe mobster kids over in throgs neck, country club, pelham bay and morris park. the last italians and irish in the bx. overall though way less whites then in the past. only yuppies movin in but not the way whites wit family are leavin. a couple whites movin into shity areas and middle class long time new yorker whites movin out of decent areas in big numbas only to give that area up. happened in the north bx. seen that area change big time.

if it wasnt for all these immigrants im sure the city would be loosin people.at least thats what i think. and the city need people for money. mad domincans and mexicans these days.

basically u sayin as the poor people get kicked out the area will change for the better. but thats ****ed up. only 2 reasons crime overall went down. end of crack and the fact mad immigrants came and lots of puerto ricans and blacks left. these groups was doin the diein. but now the new immigrants takin on the old problems. dominicans especially. the young dominicans is a lot like the puerto rican kids. mexicans are followin to since they get picked on so much. they are startin to fight back in gangs the way they do in la.

if you wanna see wats in these immigrant kids minds go to any school in the bx, harlem or brooklyn. you will see fightin, gangs, drugs. they deal wit it in school. on the block of course. sometimes even at home. things there parents aint experence. many of these immigrants is lucky enough to leave soon as they get enough money and never come back. others aint so lucky. the poverty tryiin to drag them down like it did the puerto ricans and blacks. all it takes is gettin locked up one time. or takin just one hit of crack or heron. even weed, get lazy and start hangin out. then theres shit they cant help like gettin jumped and everyone like you gotta do somethin or you look soft. or a female get raped. or all kinds of shit. its ****ed up how all that negative shit can so easily bring down the children. there just aint nothin really bein done to stop it. shit even hangin out on the block can **** up yoru life. you give a pound to some nigga and u get caught in a drug sweep or killed by a bullet. thats how it really is out there. shit is rough and i feel for these kids today.

So how do you explain similar drops in crime in areas that were already gentrified? You can go through every precinct in the city, and you will find similar results.

Crime in my neighborhood dropped 74%. It was thoroughly yuppified in 1993.

If the answers were as simple as you suggest, other cities that have been studying the New York phenomenon for years have yet to figure it out.

A lot more complex than you suggest.

lol damn yo dont tell me you belive that shit. battery park always been pretty decent. they could say there was zero violent crime in battery park and people will belive it. never really anything but a lot of "white collar crime". but uptown they be ****in wit the crime statistics crazy. everyone in the hood know that. cuz you make a report for a robbery, like someone punched you and took your shit, like a phone but the boys put it as petit larceny. even betta lost property lol. lol i seen that shit before. the 40 do that shit like crazy to keep the numbers down. cuz they co will get on they ass, and his boss downtown will get on him. crime is down witout a doubt in the city compared to back in the crack days. cuz no one gettin merked over a couple vials. not as many crack heads roamin the street. thas everywhere tho. there is still way more crime then what is reported in the poor areas in the city. that is the only way they get the real estate poppin across the street from pjs and drug spots. ****ed up but you gotta do wat you gota do to make your boss and they bosses look good as a cop. lotta cops dont like it, even more dont give a ****, but they gotta deal wit it cuz they gettiin payed.

shit is always safe in the hood. only time you should feel unsafe when 3 niggas followin you at night. or some nigga watchin the door in your buildin from the inside. or you got beef. so mabey u aint always safe but for the most part u good. shit always been that way. still a lot of bullshit out here, jus aint as many people makin big money and payin in blood for it. this weed sales now, that shit dont make u rich. trust me i used to hustle back when i was in high school. u dont get rich. u sellin nics for 5. and in the south bx no one can even afford that so u sellin 3 dollar bags or people ow you money. shit is retarted. plus once u got a flow goin people start ****in it up. either hustlin where u hustlin and that can start beef. makin the block hot wit other bullshit like jux. or snitchin.

lol crime droppin every year. shit is impossible they got less cops now then ever. mad rooks these days too that really dont kno that much. cant even really put the footpost out there like 10 years back and the footpost was the best thing against crime. you gotta have ball to jux someone in front a footpost. now when they do the footpost, they only do a few corners. niggas just start snatchin or sellin on other blocks nearby. i kno blocks and buildins just as bad as they always been wit a lil less crack but more weed sales to make up for it.

thas the phenomenon lol

It's sometimes hard to draw conclusions, but most rich people don't commit street crimes.

First official murder in BPC was a man killing his wife, sparked by resentment that her career was heading up, and his was going in the other direction.

The murder weapons were a meat tenderizer and a bottle of wine. :rolleyes:

what the ****. lol damn.

first murder in mott haven was a baby got thrown down a garbage disposal. then after that some drug dealer got blasted. even though he hustles was beef over money not drugs or some stupid shit. he dead rip life moves on. there was one tonight on morris ave but in mount eden. victim died from multiple gunshot wounds. bet he got killed over some dumb shit too. well thats what i heard over the radio. i dont got the scanner wit me so i dont kno wat else is poppin in the street. today was pretty crazy. so was the 13 and 14th of the month, i remember those days cuz there was a lot of shootings. lotta shit. domestic violence and street shit. people get restless and on those warm days early in the spring shit happends. should calm down some as the days warm up. but we all know once schools is out it all gets crazy again.

[ablarc]

First official murder in BPC was a man killing his wife, sparked by resentment that her career was heading up, and his was going in the other direction.

The murder weapons were a meat tenderizer and a bottle of wine. :rolleyes:
Details?

[bmc]

Nice photos, krulltime! :) It offers an insightful view on your portrayal of the Bronx neighborhood, and I like how you've captured it.

[antinimby]

yuppies? nah i read whites is still leavin nyc its been like that for a long time now.Yuppies are not necessarily white and they are not the same type as those that are leaving. The ones leaving are middle-class natives.

Yuppies are young, educated, mostly single people who may be from another state originally. They also don't have the New York accent. ;)

[Bright Lights, Big City]

antinimby:

Your theories on the decline of crime rates in NYC are flawed and sound more like you're using figures to justify previously held social values and opinions rather than using facts and figures to shape them, and lead you to the truth.

I may not live in NYC, but I've done enough reading and research about what occurred there in the 70's, 80's and 90's to fill volumes. What you're saying is an oversimplified bunch of sh*t that sounds more like some kind of half-baked socio-political tirade than anything based on historical fact. If you want to know what really happened in NYC to make the crime rate rise in the 70's and 80's and then subsequently fall, expand your reading list beyond internet chat sites and message boards because it sounds like you've just picked up anecdotal bits and pieces here and there and pasted them together to support your theory that the South Bronx (and places like it) became ghetto because of all the people living there - coincidentally, blacks and Puerto Ricans. Now you can deny that this is what you're implying, but drawing any other conclusion from the "theories" you've written would be skirting around something that appears to me to lie at the very core of your manner of thinking on this issue.


Schadenfrau:

I haven't noticed anyone trying to make themelves out to be a badass. To whom are you referring, and why the skepticism? Is it perhaps because you are dying to say: "I actually live in the South Bronx and you don't!" :D

peace

BL, BC

[ZippyTheChimp]

Details?Are you kidding?

All I remember are jabs from some friends, like:

"Is a Merlot appropriate for spousal homicide?"

[ZippyTheChimp]

Schadenfrau:

I haven't noticed anyone trying to make themelves out to be a badass. To whom are you referring, and why the skepticism? Is it perhaps because you are dying to say: "I actually live in the South Bronx and you don't!" :DShadenfrau lives in the neighborhood.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

Shadenfrau lives in the neighborhood.

I know. That's why I wrote that. She lives in Port Morris as far as I can tell from her posts.

[JazzyJay]

Yuppies are not necessarily white and they are not the same type as those that are leaving. The ones leaving are middle-class natives.

Yuppies are young, educated, mostly single people who may be from another state originally. They also don't have the New York accent. ;)

tru. but the yuppies usaully aint got no clue about the city. they be gettin ripped off hard to live in areas that aint in no way worth that much. even in downtown and midtown manhattan. then they **** everyone cuz now the people who own the buildins swear they can charge anything they want cuz the yuppies will take it. plus they all wanna live in nyc cuz its popular and shit. risin up rent even in the hood. people live in the hood, we aint got the cash to live where ever. plus we got family and friends. most of us jobs. plus u jus familiar wit the area, it is home. i think all the yuppies should move to staten island lol. not too many people live down there. they can make it like midtown the way they want. starbucks. art galleries and all that shit. im jus not down wit gentrification cuz it pushes poor out. i seen it first hand. now harlem startin to get genrtified around 125 and down. even north of that scattered around but mostly on the west side. lotta old harlem people usually from the west side and central south of 125 gettin pushed into the bx. but at least the east side gotta lot of mexicans moving in. too bad though the prs just abandoned that shit. lotta puerto ricans took off. shoulda held that place down its got a lot of history. but i feel them. bad quality housing and crime. hood shit. how they buildin luxoury buildins across from pjs in central harlem. shit is crazy. i wouldnt live there. buggin

antinimby:

Your theories on the decline of crime rates in NYC are flawed and sound more like you're using figures to justify previously held social values and opinions rather than using facts and figures to shape them, and lead you to the truth.

I may not live in NYC, but I've done enough reading and research about what occurred there in the 70's, 80's and 90's to fill volumes. What you're saying is an oversimplified bunch of sh*t that sounds more like some kind of half-baked socio-political tirade than anything based on historical fact. If you want to know what really happened in NYC to make the crime rate rise in the 70's and 80's and then subsequently fall, expand your reading list beyond internet chat sites and message boards because it sounds like you've just picked up anecdotal bits and pieces here and there and pasted them together to support your theory that the South Bronx (and places like it) became ghetto because of all the people living there - coincidentally, blacks and Puerto Ricans. Now you can deny that this is what you're implying, but drawing any other conclusion from the "theories" you've written would be skirting around something that appears to me to lie at the very core of your manner of thinking on this issue.


Schadenfrau:

I haven't noticed anyone trying to make themelves out to be a badass. To whom are you referring, and why the skepticism? Is it perhaps because you are dying to say: "I actually live in the South Bronx and you don't!" :D

peace

BL, BC

i also gotta throw in. puerto ricans and blacks are still diein and shit like crazy. the rates and all that bullshit are lower now for the areas becuase you got all the immigrants. take those people out and the crime rate would be higher. just cuz there aint 100 homicides no more every year dont mean anything. first theres no crack heroin or gang war and second theres less puerto ricans and blacks overall. if there was just prs and blacks left in the south bx i can guarentee the crime rate pretty much the same as any other hood in the usa. proly a bit worse on average then most cuz there is a lot of bullshit in the south bx. the prs and blacks definately deal wit the most shit. and as the murders have been risin over the last few years. thats cuz the kids of immigrants are gettin to the age where they can commit crimes. now they startin die as well.

now this aint cuz prs and blacks are animials in any way. its just that economically they are not well off even compared to the immigrants. thats cuz its been generations deep in poverty. families with history of drug addiction and prison too.

as for the reason these areas got ****ed up in the first place. well outside forces played a role in that. why u think theres so many pjs in the south bx. so many homeless shelters ****ed up schools. methadone clinics prisons and highways that even cut them areas. south bx was even ****in up before the blacks and latinos was the majority.

I know. That's why I wrote that. She lives in Port Morris as far as I can tell from her posts.

lol port morris. dont tell me that clocktower. man those people is buggin. aint nothin down there. no schools no nothin. no one used to live down there at all. thats all below the highway its like a different area. just old industrial shit but they rehahbilited the few buildins they had down there on top the antique shops but there is still a lot of abandonded buildins along the highway. for that rent my ass would be livin in queens. only place you would catch me down there a couple blocks east where NO BODY lives. just below the millbrook pjs on the south side of the highway. they got a nice lil park there for workin out. had dip and pullup bars and a empty handball court a few blocks over where u drive into the tri-borough bridge. i used to stay goin there but now im jus a lil too far to be workin out down there. only bad thing is all the cars from the highway, air aint to good but the whole south bx-harlem is like that. no body ever really go down there. buts its a really small out of the way area so aint really no reason to go down there.

[antinimby]

antinimby:
Your theories on the decline of crime rates in NYC are flawed and sound more like you're using figures to justify previously held social values and opinions rather than using facts and figures to shape them, and lead you to the truth.Flawed? As I've explained previously, it makes perfect sense.

Let's say for example, all of the current residents of Mott Haven were suddenly replaced with yuppies.

Do you think that the crime rate would:

a) stay the same,
b) go up,
c) go down?

Can you honestly say it has nothing to do with demographics?

Again as I've said a few times already (people just don't hear this part), I'm not saying this is alone the only factor but it is a very big one.

No one is going to convince me otherwise.

[Schadenfrau]

Sorry, but I've stopped even pretending to buy into JazzyJay.

[JazzyJay]

Flawed? As I've explained previously, it makes perfect sense.

Let's say for example, all of the current residents of Mott Haven were suddenly replaced with yuppies.

Do you think that the crime rate would:

a) stay the same,
b) go up,
c) go down?

Can you honestly say it has nothing to do with demographics?

Again as I've said a few times already (people just don't hear this part), I'm not saying this is alone the only factor but it is a very big one.

No one is going to convince me otherwise.

i think the part that pissed him off was the same thing that got me a lil tight. wen u said:

"No doubt once this happens, crime and poverty will drop further and become like the rest of the city. This is a major explanation for the 180° turnaround in the city from the crime-ridden early 90's and the current decade we're in."

like u lookin foward to the poor gettin kicked out tha city. which aint gonna happen cuz of all the pjs,affordable housin, and the fact there is always gonna be poor. but i think this is where he got upset.

i do agree wit u when u say that the crime will go down if the poor get out. but wat good is that? the problem aint bein solved or anythin. more things gotta be done to help the poor areas in nyc and all over the country. not enough is bein done to fix the bigger problems. like education and broken familys. it would make life betta for everyone to try and fix these problems. its jus no one is really sittin down and takin the time to make a real diffeence on a large scale. i dont kno if this can eva be done. i kno not in my lifetime.

[ablarc]

JazzyJay, here's an article by John Ridley you might enjoy: http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11879.

If you read it, tell us what you think.

[antinimby]

like u lookin foward to the poor gettin kicked out tha city. which aint gonna happen cuz of all the pjs,affordable housin, and the fact there is always gonna be poor. but i think this is where he got upset.No, I do not want to see New York lose its poor and middle class.

Regular forumers here know that I would not support that (and in fact, this is a very big concern I have of the city) but I can understand how BLBC might not have known.

Anyway, I was only trying to show that there is a definite relationship between demographics and crime rate.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

antinimby:

it's not your logic that's flawed, it's the basic premises you use as the foundation of your argument. In any argument, a false or misrepresented premise can render the entire argument meaningless, regardless how sound your logic is leading you from premise one to two to three, to your final conclusion. Your logic may seem impeccable, but since your leaps of logic are based on shaky premises, your landing point is way off the mark.

Let me give you a brief example of what I'm talking about:

If we gas all the poor, the US would be much wealthier, have far few social problems, less crime, less tax money being pissed away on social programs, less bad stuff in general.

or

If we killed off all the minorities in the US, there would be no more racism in this country.

Both statements may seem logically correct, but if you look a little deeper into them, you quickly see how absurd they are.

peace

BL, BC

[antinimby]

Both statements may seem logically correct, but if you look a little deeper into them, you quickly see how absurd they are.You are now saying that my logic is not flawed but the premise is.

I think that is very vague so you're gonna have to explain further other than setting up a couple of straw men examples.

Gasing people and killing minorities? Huh??

As I have shown, if there is a change in demographics, then the resultant characteristic (including crime) of the neighborhood would change as well.

If you don't think it happens, then you are in denial.

[lofter1]

How do you change the demographics?

[ablarc]

^ Economics does that automatically.

[lofter1]

But do "economics" pull up those on the lower end of the demographic chart -- or push them out?

Perhaps a bit of both.

A tricky balancing act.

[angeladevi]

Krulltime, this is a very nice set of pictures!! You have my compliments. Allthough I am not at all a New Yorker, actually I am dutch, I could easyly trace your steps using Googleearth. Does anyone have old pictures from the beginning of the 20st century when this neighbourhood was built?

[HansonNY]

Great pictures! Some parts of the area look quite and calm and there's many architectural gems on those side streets.

My father used to live in the South Bronx (this is going way back to the 1940's-1960's).

Slightly off topic here, but has anyone read the book Amazing Grace by Jonathan Kozol? It's a book about children growing up in the area in the early 90's. Good read for those interested.

[BadByron]

Very nice.I really do enjoy seeing all the photos

[clubBR]

i think the part that pissed him off was the same thing that got me a lil tight. wen u said:

"No doubt once this happens, crime and poverty will drop further and become like the rest of the city. This is a major explanation for the 180° turnaround in the city from the crime-ridden early 90's and the current decade we're in."

like u lookin foward to the poor gettin kicked out tha city. which aint gonna happen cuz of all the pjs,affordable housin, and the fact there is always gonna be poor. but i think this is where he got upset.

i do agree wit u when u say that the crime will go down if the poor get out. but wat good is that? the problem aint bein solved or anythin. more things gotta be done to help the poor areas in nyc and all over the country. not enough is bein done to fix the bigger problems. like education and broken familys. it would make life betta for everyone to try and fix these problems. its jus no one is really sittin down and takin the time to make a real diffeence on a large scale. i dont kno if this can eva be done. i kno not in my lifetime.

All the issues you've addressed, I've been listening to for years. My friend I knew since high school lives in Hamilton Heights (145th and St. Nick) and every time we smoke he gets down to the points you're talking about. "Damn man, Bush dont give a ****. The govt dont give a ****. People dyin evry day out here. Crack heads sayin "i'll suck yo d*ck". " and it goes on and on.

After years in the neighborhood, he always seems down but has that survival mentality where he lives on a day by day basis. I have nothing but love for him and we went through alot but I've always looked at him as someone I dont want to be.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

Man, there's a world of difference between Hamilton Heights and the South Bronx - at least, there is nowadays.

No doubt both areas have improved since the 80's and early 90's, but still...Hamilton Heights, like the rest of Manhattan, is prime real estate, and is undergoing a tremendous amount of gentrification that will just continue to reshape the neighborhood (and no doubt push the old, low-income residents out). I'm not saying there's not a "scene" around there - there's poverty, drugs, gangs, broken homes, and all that sh*t, but these days people who are caught in that scene are caught for a reason - no longer victims of geography. I mean, there's poverty, drugs, gangs, broken homes and all the rest in the East Village and Lower East Side, but again - geography has nothing to do with it. It's not like you walk out your door into some urban wasteland populated by desperate junkies with rusty razors tucked into their belt, welfare moms with out-of-control kids - tomorrow's gang fodder - row upon row of vacant lots and burnt-out buildings, crews of bored youth hanging on every corner, shootings on the block every night, killings every other week, stick-up kids roaming the near-vacant streets in search of a mark, drug markets operating on every corner, outsiders coming into the neighborhood all the time to cause trouble and score drugs, ambitious gangs looking to make their mark by taking out a rival. Hamilton Heights, despite what it may have been in the past, is presently on the up-and-up. And while the Bronx may be too in some sense, there's not much of a comparison to be made these days. While my above description may not apply to most of the South Bronx these days, it still is one of the most concentrated areas of urban poverty in America; Hamilton Heights ain't - at least, it ain't anymore.

Your friend may really be depressed and angered by the state of his neighborhood. Or he may just be one many young people searching for authenticity in a ghetto environment that has long-since receded into a few scattered street corners, looking to impress their friends and others by moaning about how rough life is on their block, reaching for the street-credit being a ghetto-dweller can give a person these days by clinging to the archetypal "shit is so rough around here man, what's a person to do?" attitude, or maybe looking for an excuse to do nothing but complain, or grasp at the legitimacy desperately craved by inner-city youth - the legitimacy that comes from having a hard life, living in the hood, and being hardened by one's environment. Or maybe he's clinging to the way the neighborhood used to be, hoping that by complaining about a state of being that is the exception rather than the norm these days, that maybe he can preserve the place the way it used to be, a place that's more familiar to him than what the neighborhood is rapidly becoming. Or maybe he's a part of all this shit he complains about and has involved himself in the street life to the point where that's what he sees when he walks around his neighborhood because that's the life he's chosen to live. Instead of seeing rapidly gentrifying blocks and dramatic changes in demographics, he sees crackheads, criminals, and hopelessness - maybe that has more to do with him than the neighborhood he lives in.

Who knows? Just seems to me that lots of people want to complain about how rough life is in the hood when, in a place like Hamilton Heights in the early 21st Century, the hood is largely wherever block the hoodlums choose to dwell on a particular day. When they move on, it's just another block in uptown Manhattan - rapidly gentrifying as all types of crime drop dramatically, derelict buildings are rehabbed and converted into co-ops, and the last vestiges of the 80's and 90's are swept away.

I tend to think his smoked-out speech reflects a longing to return to the way things used to be, where the future of the neighborhood was most likely going to be the same as the past and present, where the rent would be affordable, and the faces familiar. Despite the crime and the poverty and the despair, the neighborhood was familiar and his place in it was not in doubt. These days, all of Manhattan is up for grabs, and the rapid changes lauded by many as "progress" make others cling to a past that no longer exists, a way of life that's quickly being pushed out to the outer boroughs and beyond. They cling to that past, because clinging to it is the only way to keep themselves, their lives, and the struggles of their old neighborhood from being swept away into irrelevance as Manhattan rapidly transforms into one big bourgeois paradise.

That's what I think.

peace

BL, BC

[Schadenfrau]

You've got to be joking with those colorful stories, BLBC. Hamilton Heights is a small neighborhood, and the South Bronx is a large place. I'm not sure which part of the South Bronx you're describing, but it's certainly not all of it.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

Schadenfrau:

I think you've misunderstood me - it's probably my fault. I'm not actually describing the South Bronx, or at least, not what it is these days, though there are some parts of the South Bronx that do resemble my description to a certain extent (try Melrose Ave. all the way up to where it turns into Webster. And don't forget Hoe and Aldus, 137th between St. Anne's and Cypress, Spofford Ave. in Hunts Point, Randall Ave. and Rosedale Ave. in Soundview, Castle Hill Ave. and Randall, and a large stretch of Watson Ave. in Soundview, which is a well-known drug spot where Operation Impact, Weed and Seed, and a number of other police programs are all in place simultaneously. I could continue listing intersections and blocks, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at).

What I'm describing in my previous post is the way the ghetto used to be in NYC (and still is in many parts of America, and more parts of NYC than many New Yorkers may want to admit), and what the word "ghetto" evokes in most peoples' minds. My description is meant to contrast with the current landscape of Hamilton Heights - the neighborhood where the previous poster's friend lives.

I do agree with you that, these days, much of the South Bronx doesn't fit the description I've put in my previous post. But there was a time not too long ago where it did fit that description, and you can still catch glimpses of it here and there if that's what you're looking for. Parts of Hunts Point, Mott Haven, Melrose, Morrisania, and Soundview still have plenty of derelict buildings, housing projects, drug dealers and addicts, violent crime, vacant lots, and bored youth congregating on street corners. Though not as extreme as my description, what the neighborhood was for the better part of the last three decades is far worse than anything I could describe in words.

peace

BL, BC

[clubBR]

I get the vibe that you think these areas are so much better than it used to be. Stop comparing the present to the 70's-90's. It is what it is. Instead, compare present day Harlem or South Bronx to present day Woodside or Park Slope. The past is the past, let it go.
I see you're from Toronto and in your past posts you've stated that you've never actually been to New York but researched it through articles and maps. That's fine. I live in NY and sometimes research through the internet. But, if you havent actually been to a place (and not just walk around, you have to get to know some of the residents), you can't judge anything through 3rd party sources and statistics.
I'm not trying to attack your credibility, its just I cant help but have some doubts about youre views. It sounds very "textbook" and not first hand.

[Bright Lights, Big City]

Friend, I've been to New York many times. During the time I've spent in NYC lately, I've traversed most of Manhattan, the South Bronx, and large swaths of Brooklyn on foot. I've been through almost every last corner of the South Bronx in at least a dozen separate visits to the neighborhood. I may not live in the city, but I don't see how that matters - nothing I've written on this site or anywhere else requires me living in the city for it to be valid. Your NYC "credentials" may be more legit than mine, but I still don't see what your point is.

While I have done plenty of reading on the history of the city, I wouldn't presume to speak about subjective matters (for example, describing the character of a neighborhood) with any amount of authority if my only knowledge came from some book. Still, my experiences are subjective, but my non-residence status in the city doesn't render them irrelevant.

Anyways, I don't see what you're getting at in your post. If you truly believe what you're saying, it follows that you believe historical comparisons are a waste of time (and why one comparison is more relevant than another, I don't understand). The world is what it is, right? Unfortunately, you can never hope to have any understanding of what is without understanding what was. I don't see what's so different about the Bronx or any other NYC neighborhood - studying its history and making comparisons with the present is a natural human pursuit. Without referring to history, without the context history provides, our entire existence as humans would be meaningless. If you think history is important, then I don't see why it shouldn't matter whether speaking of the Bronx or any other place on this Earth. And if you don't think that the Bronx (or Hamilton Heights, for that matter) is better now than it used to be, I don't know what to say. Why would I compare the Bronx or Harlem to Park Slope in this situation? I'm not talking about Park Slope. This was originally a post about the Bronx, and then Hamilton Heights got brought into it - I'm just staying on topic, or trying to at least.

Or perhaps you just didn't take the time to read my posts, and simply skimmed through them, which has resulted in your strange response. Maybe my post seems textbook to you, or maybe that's just the way I write.

BL, BC

I thought I should also add that I have family roots in NYC going back over 100 years. My mom moved to NYC from San Juan back in the 60's when many of her fellow Puerto Ricans were making the same move. I have many friends and acquaintances in the city, some of them friends met online, others met simply walking around. I've talked to lots of people in lots of different neighborhoods, visited peoples' apartments in the projects, wandered in and out of the small businesses, delis, and diners and that make up a neighborhood's character. I've chatted to young people on the streets, and joked around with older people watching a local baseball game; I've smoked spliffs with local youths, talked politics with older heads, and debated the essence of Puerto Rican identity with a group of old Neuvo Riquenos in Spanish Harlem. When I visit a neighborhood, I don't just walk through it like you seem to believe. I'm not there to see the sights - I'm there to learn about the place and the people who live there.

Oh, now I see you're the same person who wrote the post I originally responded to...I hope you realize I'm not trying to criticize what you've written or call into question the validity of your friend's thoughts. I just hear a lot of that kind of talk from a lot of people living in a lot of different places, and I'm wondering what the thinking behind it is. The reason it caught my attention is because these days Hamilton Heights has changed a lot from what it used to be, but your friend still seems to see the neighborhood as a place where people are dying every day (I'm assuming he means dying by foul play, 'cause people are dying in every neighborhood every day if you think about it), and crack heads stalk the pavement looking to trade blowjobs for rock (something that can be found just as readily here in Toronto and just about any inner-city neighborhood). I was just wondering out loud what may have been behind his complaint...hell, maybe it was just the weed you two were smoking.

[clubBR]

lol ok bright lights big city

Anyone know the area along Allerton Ave (directly east of the Botanical Garden) close to Parkside Houses and Pelham Parkway Houses? The 2 and the 5 trains stop there. Whats the neighborhood like now a days? Wheres the nearest police precint located (46th)?

[Bright Lights, Big City]

Hey cluBR...

I don't think the 46 is the local precinct in that particular area. I think the 46 is closer to the Grand Concourse if I'm not mistaken. I think the area you're talking about is on the east side of the Bronx Park. Actually, I was seriously considering living in this area not too long ago when I thought I was moving down there (looks like I'm going to have to put that off once again).

While I've never actually walked around this neighborhood, it looks pretty nice from what I've seen. At least the part just south of Pelham Pkwy., bordering Bronx Park. Lots of nice old tenements, practically no detached houses or townhouses. Very high population density. I don't know the exact name of the neighborhood, but on some maps I've seen the closest name I've seen to the area I'm talking about is Bronxdale. I don't know if this is where you're talking about. Probably someone else could give you a better idea of what the neighborhood's like. My experience with the Bronx is mostly south of East Tremont, and a little bit of Belmont.

peace

BL, BC

I just checked a map and looks like Allerton is way north of what I'm talking about. I think it's mostly residential around there - detached and semi-detached houses. Again, I'm sure there's someone else around who knows better than me. I don't know shit about that part of town.

[clubBR]

Hey cluBR...

I don't think the 46 is the local precinct in that particular area. I think the 46 is closer to the Grand Concourse if I'm not mistaken. I think the area you're talking about is on the east side of the Bronx Park. Actually, I was seriously considering living in this area not too long ago when I thought I was moving down there (looks like I'm going to have to put that off once again).

While I've never actually walked around this neighborhood, it looks pretty nice from what I've seen. At least the part just south of Pelham Pkwy., bordering Bronx Park. Lots of nice old tenements, practically no detached houses or townhouses. Very high population density. I don't know the exact name of the neighborhood, but on some maps I've seen the closest name I've seen to the area I'm talking about is Bronxdale. I don't know if this is where you're talking about. Probably someone else could give you a better idea of what the neighborhood's like. My experience with the Bronx is mostly south of East Tremont, and a little bit of Belmont.

peace

BL, BC

I just checked a map and looks like Allerton is way north of what I'm talking about. I think it's mostly residential around there - detached and semi-detached houses. Again, I'm sure there's someone else around who knows better than me. I don't know shit about that part of town.

My family owns a business along Allerton Ave and I walked around the neighborhood. I saw alot of Blacks, Hispanics, and even whites. There were projects to the north and the south. I also saw alot of police presence. Just wondering what the precinct crime rate is and stuff like that. Thanks though

[Bright Lights, Big City]

I just checked the precinct crime rate...it's actually very low compared to many of the neighborhoods around it. At least the murder rate is - I didn't pay attention to the other stats. You can check crime rates for any precinct in the city at the NYPD bureau website. I don't have the address handy, but you can find it easily through Google. You can also get a better idea of what the neighborhood looks like from Windows Live Local. Use the Bird's Eye View feature to zoom right in on the blocks you're interested in - it's much better than Google Earth, trust me. You can get a pretty good idea of the general appearance of the neighborhood, and what kind of buildings dominate the area, if it's residential, commercial, industrial, etc.

peace

BL, BC

[krulltime]

I guess this thread keeps on going. Ok anyway here some pics that I didn't post before...

61.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023202.jpg

62.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023213.jpg

63.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023224.jpg

64.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023232.jpg

65.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023233.jpg

66.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023234.jpg

67.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023235.jpg

68.
http://www.pbase.com/image/78023236.jpg

69.
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[krulltime]

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[krulltime]

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[krulltime]

More pics on the page before (page #7).

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[Bright Lights, Big City]

Boy, Mott Haven sure does have a high concentration of housing projects. Whenever I see all those big, brown towers I always wonder what was razed to make room for them. Back when Moses built those babies, everyone was so convinced they held the answer to urban poverty in America. Even if they did, they still would have been a damn ugly remedy. Something in me yearns for the cohesiveness and continuity interrupted by these multi-block monstrosities. Does anyone know where I can see pictures of Mott Haven before the PJ's were built?

Anyways krulltime, you've assembled a nice collection of Mott Haven photos. You've captured quite a few corners of the neighborhood, though I'd love to see some shots of the Beekman and Powers Ave. area south of St. Mary's Park, and some of those fine old brownstones on 139th up to 144th. I think you've shown the neighborhood in a pretty favorable light - comparing these shots to others taken only 16 years ago is an amazing contrast. The physical improvement is very marked. Then again, the neighborhood always seems to be cleaner and less gritty in pictures than it does when you're actually walking there. Have you ever noticed this?

peace

BL, BC

[cabracadabra]

Dear all,
My name is Monxo and I live on Alexander Avenue. On one of the beautiful houses that krulltime has photographed and you have commented about so much.

You cannot judge a neighborhood without actually spending lots of time in it or living there. Statistics are but a VERY poor substitute of what this neighborhood is and what it is not.

It is actually funny to see people talking about this place with so much authority...about the crime, the absence of it, how it compares with Park Slope or with itself 20 years ago, etc.

These are my general impressions and experience here...

I bought my house 3 years ago. The price has almost doubled in that time, not because the neighborhood has improved (it has), but because that's the way the real estate market works. As you probably know, about a year ago Barbara Corcoran went into a morning program and declared Mott Haven to be one of the hottest neighborhoods in the whole nation to invest, and that energized the housing market here incredibly.

I have two bikes chained to the front of my house and no one has ever touched them. I go out at night very late, to drink at the neighborhood bars and to hang out in my friends' houses, and I have never experienced anything remotely resembling crime or violence against me or anyone I know. None of my visitor or friends (I many many people come here on a regular basis) has ever been threatened or attacked. In short, this is a safe place.

There seems to be two main issues that you are basically ignorant of:
1) there are two Mott Havens.
2) the immigrants AND the bohemians/artists are responsible for the bettering of the neighborhood.

First: there are many housing projects around here, making it very difficult for this neighborhood to gentrify in the way that Williamsburg or DUMBO were gentrified. And that IS a blessing. Because we don't want that in here. HOWEVER...the projects seem to be living in a different reality and the spillover to the immediate streets around were I live -on Alexander Ave- is minimal. Of course, you see the housing tenants and the street junkies walking up and down, but they never mess with the middle class (us).

So, you have us that live in the beautiful houses and the artists and bohemians living one life, while you have the rest of the people living another life. There is a non-verbalized understanding that the middle class is partly responsible for the betterment of the neighborhood for everybody and so the creeps and junkies never ever mess with this group. For they have directly benefited from the arrival of the middle class and the general beautification of the the neighborhood.

Two, the immigrants and artists: my theory is quite simple, it is the immigrants -mostly Mexicans- who turned this place into a livable neighborhood. The African Americans and Puerto Ricans (and I am Puerto Rican myself) were and are too ****ed up by the poverty and the economic system of the area. But the Mexicans, being unable to collect welfare and/or get into the loop of poverty perpetuation that the government devised (willingly or unwillingly) are just working hard to make this place what it is. It reminds me -very slightly- of the Mission in SF. When you wake up really early in the morning you see Mexican couples -dad and mom- walking their kids to school, for example. On Sunday mornings you see them going to Church with their kids, getting married, celebrating the first communion of the sons and daughters, etc.

You never see a Mexican eating the shit they sell in Chinese restaurants or in the fried chicken places, that's for the Puerto Ricans and African Americans. The Mexicans have opened their own restaurants with fresh food, their own vegetable stands, their own businesses, etc. They are the ones, that while being poor, have made those little changes and turned this into a livable place.

In all fairness, it was the African Americans and the Puerto Ricans who ultimately brought the 'burning of the Bronx' to an end, given that the government did not do shit. They were the ones who faced the arsons and huge crime wave through their community groups and movements. Perhaps they are too tired by now. They needed a new wave of people to work and continue the efforts they did in the previous decades. That's were the Mexicans and the then the artists come in. Just a thought.

Then you have the artists. They are an active part of the community. There are many alternative art spaces around. Places you have to know where they are to see. If you are an outside, forget about it. The most well known among these being the Haven Arts Gallery (favorably reviewed by the NY Times some months ago). www.havenarts.org

When the artists (or blanquitos as we call them -the whities) moved in, the neighborhood was already improving. The good things were starting to happen through the Mexicans, but the bad things -rape, murder, hold-ups, drugs, etc.- were still happening wholesale. So you had very good things happening along the usual stuff that used to happen around here. But then the artists and bohemians started to move in. And that's when the cops decided to get their asses to work.

That started happening about 4 years ago. One year before I got here. I've heard dozens of stories of middle class folks from minority groups saying that it was when the artists moved in that the cops started to reign in the creeps. Because to have whites attacked by Puerto Ricans and African Americans was a complete liability for the NYPD and the politicians. That's when the shooting galleries started to close, that's when they started to intervene with the drug dealers on the street, etc. Of course, the projects are a world on their own, but -again- what goes on there rarely spillsover to the regular streets.

You have to remember that projects have their own streets: their hallways and stairs. And I NEVER venture there. Ever. That's where most of the crime is still going on. What the cops have done is contain crime to events inside the projects. So, yes, crime is still around, but basically confined to the very poor areas and more specifically to the projects.

Will there ever be a lumpen revolution that leads the projects to spill over to the streets and murder and rape at will? No. That has never happened, and it will not happen. They are not animals.

So, this is a little bit like the Mission in San Francisco: Mexicans have paved the way to artists. Although the African American presence and the Puerto Rican's claims to the area are there and evident. It is a very very mixed neighborhood: Dominicans, Mexicans, Whites, Puerto Ricans, African Americans, and of course a VERY large African community. The largest in the country, I believe.

And the area will CONTINUE to improve. Just last week me and my wife were invited to a meeting with city planners to discuss their plans for the neighborhood in the future. Water front amenities, affordable housing for regular folks AND artists, among other goodies. The fact that we had the mild courage to move in here, while other folks are still debating statistics about crime and arguing about trash in the corners, have put us in an enviable position: the government and established institutions want our input for their plans for the future. We are, in short, pioneers. The others are just talkers of bla bla bla.

I have been very lucky to be able to buy my house in here. It is a beautiful house, historic, with stained glass windows, original detail on the inside, a very nice garden, etc. Things you can not see from the outside, although the outside is in itself quite impressive. The value of the house has appreciated a lot. We paid 'only' 400K. By the way, if there is a house going for 'just' 600k, let me know. That's a terrific deal nowadays! In fact, with the appreciation of value, we were able to buy just this past April a flat in Istanbul, Turkey. Ha ha ha.

I consider this to be the perfect neighborhood: working class, with middle income families moving in, a real hard working (not posse) artist community that have not been completely pushed out, a very nice warehouse stock for lofts, nice bars and restaurants, cheap food and groceries, two or three very decent alternative art spaces AND the projects. The projects are central to the equation of perfection, because they will keep most bullshitters and racists away! If it were not for the projects we will have thousands of strollers and soccer moms around here around now, and we