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Punzie
May 22nd, 2007, 01:28 AM
At the beginning of every spring, it's a tradition for all 16 houses on my block to put up brand new American flags.

Due to the abnormally inclement weather this spring, the flags are in poor condition. I don't see anyone doing anything about the situation.

A non-profit organization in my area is selling high-quality American flags at a very affordable price. My block would welcome my buying all 16 houses new flags as Memorial Day gifts. A few (physically fit) friends of mine said that they would help make the flag changes on time for the holiday.

The problem: the flags I'd be buying have a little "Made in Honduras" tag sewed on them. I'm a good seamstress, and I can remove the tags without a trace showing, but...

Is it ethically OK to buy American flags made in foreign countries?

If yes, should I remove the tags or keep them intact?

If I remove the tags, should I let people know that I did it, or have them assume that the flags came tagless?

Any input is much appreciated.:)



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i130/Rapunzel61/Spring/Memorial-Day/mempeace.gif

NoyokA
May 22nd, 2007, 01:38 AM
I would leave the Honduras stickers on, but then again I would never be caught flying a flag, its not that I'm not proud to be an American, I'm ashamed of being an American right now, I am also under the belief that unfortunately flags along with support our troops stickers have become propoganda symbols for the Bush regime a conservative ploy that you either support America or are a bleeding heart liberal terrorist.

On second thought I think it would be a good idea to fly a flag on Memorial Day to honor the country and the veterans that fought in noble wars. Today's soldiers are in a tough position, I truly feel sorry for them and wish them the very best, but because all things patriotic have become a propoganda symbol for the Bush regime if I would fly the flag I would make sure I would have a sign that read "I support our troops, but not the War in Iraq" or something along those lines, just so there is no confusion that I'm not flying a propoganda symbol for what has essentially become a fascist government.

Punzie
May 22nd, 2007, 02:47 AM
Your viewpoints always interest me, Stern, and I'm not just saying that because you're a moderator.:D

I have a seething hate for the Bush administration, but I love my country and what the flag truly stands for. Conservative Republicans do not own waving rights to the flag -- I am a flag-waving Liberal!

Luca
May 22nd, 2007, 02:56 AM
They do still make flags in the US of A... you can get them by mail order

ZippyTheChimp
May 22nd, 2007, 06:19 AM
Foreign made American flags are not a violation of flag etiquette, but since you're dealing with several people, the safest course to avoid controversy is to buy American made flags.

I would leave the tags on, but if you remove them, you should definitely tell the people you did so.

My father was a combat veteran and Brooklyn liberal Democrat, often at odds with the government. He displayed the flag every year on Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Veterans Day.

A violation of the flag code:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bush911.jpg

Punzie
May 22nd, 2007, 06:25 AM
. . . if I would fly the flag I would make sure I would have a sign that read "I support our troops, but not the War in Iraq" or something along those lines, just so there is no confusion that I'm not flying a propoganda symbol for what has essentially become a fascist government.



During the Reagan years, I had a t-shirt made up that has big, bold letters on both sides saying, "FLAG-WAVING LIBERAL." I wear it whenever I'm at a parade or event where I will be waving the American flag. How about doing that, Stern? It's true that somebody occasionally mouths off at you, but the "closet Liberals" congratulating you on your bravery more than compensate!


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i130/Rapunzel61/Spring/Memorial-Day/statue-of-liberty.jpg
"Join the Lady Liberty parade - be a flag-waving Liberal!"

Punzie
May 22nd, 2007, 06:47 AM
Luca and Zippy, you gave me an idea.

First let me clarify to Luca that my purchase of flags from the non-profit organization is regarded as a donation and is U.S. tax-deductible. My budget for would never allow for me to purchase 16 superior-quality flags for my neighbors at full cost.

The idea: to scour the web for a non-profit organization that sells U.S.-made flags of comparable quality to the Honduran ones. If anybody knows offhand of such a place, please let me know.


Lady Liberty says...http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i130/Rapunzel61/Spring/Memorial-Day/statue-liberty1.jpg....Remember those who served!

Punzie
May 22nd, 2007, 06:49 AM
A violation of the flag code:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bush911.jpg


Zippy, is this a photoshop or for real?:eek:

ZippyTheChimp
May 22nd, 2007, 07:46 AM
It looks manipulated to me; this one is better, but still doesn't look real.

http://thinkinganddriving.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/bushsteps3.JPG

For an administration that has manipulated the media, I can borrow a page from their WMD spin, and say that I never stated that the photo was real, just that the image was an example of a flag code violation.

:)

Fabrizio
May 22nd, 2007, 09:44 AM
From what I remember that photo is indeed real... I'll post the source if I find it.

Now that the US Flag has became a decorative object and marketing tool it's meaning has become cloudy. Clothing, t-shirts, bumper stickers etc.... it becomes hard to take a pious attitude toward it.

Anyway the whole American thing of national pride and flag waving is kind of vulgar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg6woyMU-VM

User Name
May 22nd, 2007, 09:55 AM
That photo, as it stands, is photo-shopped. The Bushes may indeed have stepped on such a mat somewhere - though I severely doubt said mat was placed here:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/chris_ertz/NYC_9_2006/HPIM0010.jpg

Which if memory serves me is near the east side of the Deutsche Bank Building at 130 Liberty.

Ninjahedge
May 22nd, 2007, 10:04 AM
Any worse than this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Primitive-americana-american-flag-tiolet-tank-cover-set_W0QQitemZ260099713579QQcmdZViewItem

(safe)

Fabrizio
May 22nd, 2007, 10:57 AM
www.USHistory.org

a web site, "created and hosted by the Independence Hall Association in Philadelphia"

Photo credit: Reuters/Jason Reed

Scroll down:

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

Ninjahedge
May 22nd, 2007, 11:19 AM
OK, that is too anal for me....



When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street.

Why does it matter which direction the stars are? If it is a 2 way street, SOMEONE will see it "backwards".


The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day.

Again, this is weird. It serves no functional purpose. When a people get too caught up in precisely how to raise and lower a flag.... Well, they are starting to get too caught up in the pomp and circumstance.

Luca
May 23rd, 2007, 07:58 AM
Anyway the whole American thing of national pride and flag waving is kind of vulgar.




What is vulgar about publicly displaying patriotism?

There's no question that there is an element of fetishization of the flag qua flag in the US, but I infinitely prefer it to the even more vulgar and reductive use of the flag in our own country (Italy): essentially limited to a sports banner for football (soccer) games.

Fabrizio
May 23rd, 2007, 09:02 AM
Luca! ovvio stavo scherzando.... hai guardato il video?

Luca
May 23rd, 2007, 11:13 AM
:confused:

Put a smiley on it next time...

(I don't usually open videos at work for obvious reasons...)

Punzie
May 28th, 2007, 06:47 AM
It occurred to me that my baby-boomer friend in the U.S. National Guard might know a thing or two about flag etiquette, so I emailed him with the question in my first post. This was his answer (verbatum):

Overall answer: Who cares where they are made! It's called capitalism! And besides, Honduras is not an enemy of the USA. Plus, the Guard gave out some clothes to us (not uniforms) made in China or Taiwan or someplace over there. Removing the tag is not an issue (they are not part of the actual flag), but if you wish, you can mention to recipients where they were made.


I approximately took his advice because it sounded OK enough.


I bought the flags in bulk, removed the tags, and distrubuted them on Saturday. Nobody seemed to notice that they were tagless. Five households put the new flags up and the other eleven kept their old ones up. So it goes...




http://www.kathleenmariestudio.com/images_domestic/america.jpg

Today is Memorial Day. Remember those who served.

BrooklynRider
May 28th, 2007, 12:43 PM
I remember in bering taught in Junior High School that America was unique from other countries in that it did not and could not suffer from "nationalism" as it was a country made up of diverse ethnicities.

I think the pseudo "nationalism" we see being pushed by the present administration and by right-wiong nuts who advocate theocracy over democracy is actually "fascism" not "nationalism."

Back on the topic, I think the proper way to fly the flag these days is upside down with "S.O.S." spelled out in giant letter on the ground below.

I am a proud American, too. The last time I flew a flag was after 9/11. However, once the rhetoric turned to the beating of war drums, I took it down, entirely embarrassed that I had, for a moment, thought the flying of the flag was about freedom. It was used by the current adminstration as a fascist tool of hatred, retribution, and politics.

Rapunzel, I think the buyers of the flags for your block ought to seek to purchase American made flags - instead of going the Walmart route and buying Honduran flags. But I will say, you just demonstrated why Wal-mart is BAD for America.

ZippyTheChimp
May 28th, 2007, 01:12 PM
Flags at 1 River Terrace

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/4503/1rvrterrace04cmu5.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1rvrterrace04cmu5.jpg)

pianoman11686
May 28th, 2007, 02:45 PM
I think the pseudo "nationalism" we see being pushed by the present administration and by right-wiong nuts who advocate theocracy over democracy is actually "fascism" not "nationalism."

Truth be told, fascism is just a very extreme form of nationalism.