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Deimos
June 20th, 2007, 01:30 AM
So it's 9 days to go until the iPhone launch from Apple... I was curious if anyone here was planning on getting one? I'll probably be getting to the cube sometime around 2pm to wait on line... hopefully the phone won't suck....lol!

Ninjahedge
June 20th, 2007, 09:24 AM
No.

What is the point of getting a phone that has full internet capability if the service does not have EVDO?

Save your money and WAIT FOR IT!

You will have the benefit of not being the guinea pig for this thing, and maybe in 6 months they will have the additional service that will allow you to use some of the better features of the phone.


But if you have money to burn, go on and burn it.

Deimos
June 20th, 2007, 02:35 PM
It's not such the money to burn as the desire to throw my current phone off the tallest building i can find. This is the first phone that behaves the way that I would want it to, so that's why i'm interested. I'm leaving verizon to get it as well. The only aspect of the phone that vexes me is the lack of 3g which you pointed out, but the one thing i've noticed when using my current EvDO phone (Motorola Q) is that the speeds never seem to be operating at speeds above cingular's EDGE network anyway, so I don't expect much of a loss. Places where I've tested:

NJ Transit trains or Coach USA buses when visiting my parents for a weekend - Phone tethered to my laptop via bluetooth serving as a modem; this is the fastest it gets

ESPN and MLB mobile sites via phone's built in web-browser - phone is slow as molasses

Google's mobile browser - again slow slow slow... not fast like EvDO should be.

Granted, I'm probably going to go to a cingular store and pick up a pre-paid phone to test for a week and see just how bad EDGE is for the same purposes, but who knows

Ninjahedge
June 20th, 2007, 02:49 PM
via phone's built in web-browser

Sometimes it is not the connection, but everything else.

You may want to see if you can try another phone in teh store to see how fast things go. It may be the firmware, the signal, or the sites you are visiting.

All of them go slow, comparitively, but if you are paying that much for a phone, I would expect more.

I do like their concept, but like I said, wait 6 months for them to get the wrinkles out and for the community to write some decent shareware ;)

Front_Porch
June 20th, 2007, 03:07 PM
I'm a real estate agent and I just can't operate without remote access to the Web . . .the last time I had to respond to an email to accept an apartment, my poor client had to walk SIX blocks with me to a Kinko's.

Surburban agents solve this by carrying tablet PCs, but I walk all day and they'd be too heavy.

Treos, I understand, don't have much memory, and I need a camera, so my choices are the iPhone or the Blackberry Pearl --- I don't know what the H EVDO is, but it seems intuitive to me that the people who make my computer can make a phone I can deal with.

Plus, Blackberry access to the Internet (not email) seems slow . . . but I would love thoughts from current users.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Ninjahedge
June 20th, 2007, 03:22 PM
EVDO is faster digital cell phone internet access.

You may be able to get more info at a tech site. Computers: www.tomshardware.com (http://www.tomshardware.com)

PS, Apple knows how to sell machines better than they know how to build them. Their stuff is good, mind you, but it is very exclusive (only their stuff works on their machines) and you pay much more than comparitable equipment and software on another box.

The same is true for their other devices. Ipod, Iphone, et all. You get a lot, but always less than you pay for.

macreator
June 20th, 2007, 04:09 PM
I'm cautiously awaiting reports of how the iPhone performs in the real world before I take the plunge and ditch Verizon.

I currently use a Treo 650 and love it, but the iPhone certainly does appeal to me. I'd really like to have my iPod and phone be one device, and with widescreen video no less. I'm wary though of the iPhone's big glass screen after purchasing a 5th generation iPod and seeing it get scratched up fairly easily even with careful handling.

For me, I'm going to wait it out until the second generation of the iPhone is released, and all of the kinks that are likely to exist with the first generation iPhone are solved. While I love Apple products, I've learned that their first generation products are often a bit buggy and early adopters are pretty much paying BETA testers.

Ninjahedge
June 20th, 2007, 04:37 PM
Bingo!

It is like the "rule of windows".

Never get the latest M$ Windows until it has been out for at least a year.

Let someone else break in the leather for you, you know?

Deimos
June 20th, 2007, 05:13 PM
Well the rule of thumb has always been to never get a first generation apple product... wait for the first revision. I've ignored it 4 times now, and haven't been burned too badly... I have a 1g iPod which still works although it's been replaced by a 1g iPod nano which works perfectly. I picked up a Mac mini when Tiger was launched, and it still works perfectly as a media server in my apartment, and my MacBook Pro was purchased the second they went on sale last January... it's the only one of the bunch that's had any issues, and even those weren't so bad (Yes, i suffered from the "whine").

Regarding EvDO: Verizon and Sprint operate their networks utilizing CDMA technology. It's just a form of digital tech. AT&T and T-Mobile by contrast use GSM as their digital technology, which is the standard that the Europeans developed. Focusing in on CDMA tech, there are levels of speed that are offered, starting with 1xRTT which came about in the early 2000's when digital phones were first rolling out on the PCS spectrum. Around 2004 Verizon began rolling out the upgrade to the 1x network which is known as 1xEvDO (Evolution Data Only). The Verizon brand name for this service is BroadbandAccess.

A further upgrade to the service is in the process of being rolled out now to 1xEvDV or EvDO Rev.A. The upgrade to EvDO provided a significant improvement to theoretical download speeds, raising the speeds from 144kbps to 2.4Mbps. On the flip side, upload speeds were left unaffected. When the upgrade to EvDV occurs, upload speeds will finally see the improvement. This upgrade will finally allow for true mobile video conferencing applications.

This is turning into more of a post than I was planning, so i'll cut it off here... I've tried to keep the information simple, yet relevant so that you don't need an engineering degree to follow it. Hope it helped!

ryan
June 20th, 2007, 06:52 PM
I tried Cingular, and will never, ever use them again. The reception was ridiculously horrible, customer service not only disinterested but incompetent. I thought cellphones were like an interchangeable commodity, but they aren't - there's a real difference from carrier to carrier. I'll wait for the apple to open up to other carriers (and for the price to drop a bit - I thought $80 was a lot for my last phone with a contract...for $600 I want it to clean my apt)

OmegaNYC
June 21st, 2007, 12:38 PM
I would get an iPhone, but then again I don't wanna be the first person in Paterson to get mugged for it. :p ( I kid the Silk City)

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 21st, 2007, 09:36 PM
Already got one years ago.

http://www.studentcomputers.co.uk/newstuff/images/i-mate-pda-2K-225x240.jpg

I just need a new screen graphic that matches the Iphone. It uses GPRS for Data, not as fast as EVDO but browseable. There was an EVDO version too.

It has a full keyboard for typing with thumbs, Wifi, Bluetooth and normal GSM services. Word, Powerpoint, a fax modem with separate fax number if you want one etc etc. And, you can install Skype on it. Great for making calls when Wifi is around.

I'm typing this from the Apple Store at 5th - there are promotions for the Iphone everywhere here as if it's the Second Coming.

Punzie
June 27th, 2007, 02:16 AM
IPhone Monthly Plans Start at $59.99

http://money.iwon.com/img/ap.gif
June 26, 2007

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) As the Friday launch of the Apple iPhone neared and anxious customers formed lines to grab one, AT&T Inc. announced Tuesday that service plans for the hotly anticipated smart phone (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) will start at $59.99 per month.

The two companies also said customers (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) will be able to activate their wireless service, including transferring their existing cell numbers to the handset from home, using Apple Inc.'s iTunes software.

That's a convenience no other cellular carrier offers and something UBS Securities (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) analyst Benjamin Reitzes called a "game changer" for the industry. Making the purchase and activation easy will lower selling costs and potentially further lift sales, Reitzes said Tuesday.

Three monthly plans with a minimum two-year service contract will be available: the $59.99 plan includes 450 minutes of voice time; a $79.99 plan includes 900 minutes; and a $99.99 plan includes 1,350 minutes. All three offer 200 text messages, unlimited data services, minutes that roll over month-to-month and mobile-to-mobile calls. There also is a $36 activation fee.

Customers can pay extra for plans to get more talk time or text messages. Several family-style plans also are available, ranging from $80 a month for 700 shared minutes to $120 for 2,100 shared minutes.

The monthly rates for the iPhone are roughly $10 less than comparable service plans for other smart phones (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) offered through AT&T, AT&T spokesman Michael Coe said.

The monthly fee will be on top of the iPhone's price $499 for a model with 4 gigabytes of storage and $599 for one with 8 gigabytes. The phone is slated to go on sale at 6 p.m. local time Friday at Apple and AT&T stores as well as Apple's Web site.

Apple claims the iPhone which combines the functions of a cell phone, iPod media player and Web-surfing device will be easier to use than other smart phones because of its unique touch-screen display and intuitive software that allows for easy access to voice mail messages, the Internet, and video (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) and music libraries. AT&T is the gadget's exclusive carrier.

Anticipation for the handset has reached or arguably even surpassed levels usually reserved for new video game consoles.

Five people were in line by Tuesday afternoon outside Apple's Fifth Avenue store in New York City, three of them having been in line since Monday.

"Words can't express why I want an iPhone," said Jessica Rodriguez, 24, a college student. "The main reason is (Apple CEO) Steve Jobs is a genius. He's a great innovator. It's going to be the next big thing in cell phones."

Sitting in a red folding chair she brought, Rodriguez said she was planning to get a $599 iPhone as a belated birthday gift for her sister. If the store will let her buy two, she said, she'll get one for herself.

Apple isn't saying how many total iPhones it will have at launch and hasn't disclosed whether there will be any per-person purchase limits.

Coe said purchases at AT&T stores will be limited to one per customer.

Meanwhile, some people who are unable to queue up themselves have posted help-wanted pleas on community Web sites like Craigslist, offering to pay someone to stand in line for them.

The iPhone's price which doesn't include any kind of carrier subsidy commonly offered for other cell phones lands on the high-end of the smart phone market, but analysts say the service plans are very competitive.

Sprint Nextel Corp., for instance, also charges $59.99 a month for 450 minutes of talk time, $79.99 for 900 minutes and $99.99 for 1,350 minutes along with unlimited data service. Its plans allow, however, up to 300 text messages and starts its unlimited evening calls at 7 p.m. instead of AT&T's 9 p.m. start time.

Verizon Wireless plans to launch new "premium" plans in July, starting at $79.99 for 450 minutes with unlimited calls on a Verizon network, unlimited nights and weekends, and unlimited messaging and data services, company spokeswoman Brenda Raney said. The most expensive plan will be $239.99 for 6,000 minutes of talk time, she said.

Skeptics question whether the iPhone can live up to its lofty expectations. Scrutiny of the product is so great that any small disappointment could send Apple's stock (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) plunging, analysts say.

Apple shares (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) dropped $2.69, or 2.2 percent, to $119.65 on Tuesday. Shares of AT&T fell 7 cents to close at $24.61.

Andy Hargreaves, a Pacific Crest Securities analyst, said Apple shareholders have run the stock up in anticipation of the iPhone's release, and they don't feel it will go much higher after the product is available, he said.

"I think expectations are very, very high and some people are taking some money (http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw#) off the table ahead of the launch," WR Hambrecht analyst Matthew Kather said.

Associated Press staff writers Nick Jesdanun and Barbara Ortutay in New York contributed to this report.

http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?cat=TOPBIZ&feed=ap&src=601&section=news&news_id=ap-d8q0oeig0&date=20070626&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw

Ninjahedge
June 27th, 2007, 10:01 AM
Three monthly plans with a minimum two-year service contract will be available: the $59.99 plan includes 450 minutes of voice time; a $79.99 plan includes 900 minutes; and a $99.99 plan includes 1,350 minutes. All three offer 200 text messages, unlimited data services, minutes that roll over month-to-month and mobile-to-mobile calls. There also is a $36 activation fee.


that is, undoubtedly, one of the best data plan rates I have ever heard.

Maybe they are banking on the volume from the Iphone to offset the loss in profit (notice I did not say loss outright, simply less profit than most plans $100/mo data plan rates)

lofter1
June 27th, 2007, 12:58 PM
I, for one, am not looking forward to iPhones on the streets of Manhattan.

People are idiotic enough with their current toys -- I can only imagine how oblivious to others they will become once they get these gadgets in their hands and take to the sidewalks.

Better stay off those stairs down into the subway ... :cool:

Eugenious
June 27th, 2007, 01:20 PM
I'm pissed 'cuz I have a plan with ATT currently and my phone does all the things iPhone does. But because these iphone plans dont extend to the rest of Att phones I pay $75 for my voice plan with no data, while iphone users get unlimited data with voice for $60. It's a pretty scummy thing to do for ATT that will now have alot of angry users like me that have to pay 19.99 for a plan they give away for free to iphone users.

ack.

Ninjahedge
June 27th, 2007, 01:41 PM
I think it is just to get it so that you feel less like an arse for spending $600 on a phone!!!


(My bets are that they are not doing any kind of "discount" for the phone through the plan, so they do not need to recoup any losses).

Front_Porch
June 28th, 2007, 09:50 AM
$600 for a phone doesn't seem crazy when you consider that alternative phones are going to cost $350 anyway . .. but I, at least, am not buying it because it's an expensive phone . . .I'm buying it because it's a cheaper (and presumably less heavy) tablet computer

The new iPhone will have more memory than the iBook that cost me $2K seven years ago . . . . even if it can't get me the Internet access I want (and I'm pretty resigned to the fact that, like the Blackberry, it can't yet, because those websites won't open on it) it's worth a $1 a day surcharge not to be constantly looking for an Internet cafe to check my email.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Ninjahedge
June 28th, 2007, 09:58 AM
Ali, hold off at least 6 months (unless you have a sweet deal). No matter how much research and development goes into a new tech/software product, there is always a break-in period where they work the bugs out that they find only after a full release.

You will also see if there are any longevity problems with the set, as not many have been using these seriously for very long.


You can do what you want, just a bit of friendly advice! ;)

Front_Porch
June 28th, 2007, 10:24 AM
ninja, you're right, I know Mac 1.0 is always a somewhat stupid thing to walk into, but I have to upgrade.

A wish I could show you my Nokia -- one of the spindles is busted (imagine an open jawbone with one of the sides busted) and it tends to close by itself and hang up on conversations. The speaker is also dying of old age (I got the phone two years ago, which means it's two generations old now) and will static out during any talk longer than three minutes.

My interim solution would be to get a Blackberry and wait a year, but every time I borrow someone's Blackberry to play with it, I feel like it's solely an email machine. That might, of course, be the nature of my friends' and clients' jobs, that those Blackberrys are corporately provided and their employers don't want the handset to be to do anything else.

My fear, of course, is that the iPhone testers so far have been men, so when they say "the glass doesn't scratch" they are probably talking about units riding around in their pockets, as opposed to a gal who doesn't have pockets in her skirts, and is going to stuff that puppy into a bag with a lipstick and a set of scratch-inducing keys . ..

Ninjahedge
June 28th, 2007, 10:56 AM
And those razor blades you ladies carry around in your purses!!!!

OMG!!!!

I know where you are coming from. My razr (no connection to the joke previou) is driving me nuts with its battery, and the service from Verizon, while nice, charges you for EVERYTHING (why the hell would i want to pay $5 a month for Tetris??!?).

I would like a gadget like the IP, my only worry would be compatability and interface isues that they might have in their efforts to make it "easy" for the average user.

"Easy" meaning that everything you do and get would be through them, or a management program rather than just hooking up a USB or Firewire cable to it and dumping things in a directory......

That being said, Being able to surf (get movie reviews at the video store, game reviews, directions, restaurant locations and tips) would be REALLY handy rather than the old "call one of your relatives at home" method... ;)

The only extension I can see for this being would be a merger with one of the GPS/mapping companies to make it so you can get directions in the car with it just like the Gamin machines. That is the only other tech "toy" I have really been looking at (would save a lot of google-map printouts in the car!!!).

Anyway, good luck!

Also, you may need to camp out to get one! One final thing, accessories like carry cases may not be readily available (to help prevent scratches). If you can't wait 6 months, yuo may want to still wait a few (2 or 3) until you don't have to buy one on E-Bay and when other MFR's make some cheap cases that will help with the scratch issue...

Eugenious
June 28th, 2007, 11:29 AM
These are going for over 1k on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/I-Phone-1st-In-Line-And-Will-Ship-Next-Day-Delivery_W0QQitemZ330140747611QQihZ014QQcategoryZ1 5036QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ninjahedge
June 28th, 2007, 11:53 AM
If you are lucky, you can get a PS3...... ;)

Front_Porch
June 30th, 2007, 11:48 AM
Went to the Apple store and played with one today.

They are very sleek and beautiful new generation iPods, with phone capability.

They are not really tablet PCs yet, partly because web designers are going to have to dumb everything down to make the interfaces work.

I signed on to olr.com, which is where real estate listings come from for me. While I can't even sign on from a Blackberry, on the iPhone I still couldn't get the sub-routines to work.

Couldn't get a movie to load. Got onto my gmail and replied to a message, but it took about five minutes, not because the touch screen is slow -- it's fantastic -- but because getting around all those little gmail boxes took forever.

The instant weather function was cool. The phone capability itself was ok.

So my verdict is, if you want a cool toy/entertainment machine, go for it. But they're not actually functional enough to work on.

I will end up getting either a tablet PC or Blackberry to deal with my email, at least for the next year.

Also, there is a "girl" problem with the phone. It isn't what I anticipated (that the screen would be vulnerable in a handbag, because it looks pretty durable) but rather that the touch screen responds to fingertip only, not fingernail. I have pretty short nails but I can imagine some ladies are going to have to sacrifice their manicures.

ali r
{downtown broker]

chris
July 1st, 2007, 01:28 AM
I was in Soho on Friday afernoon. My wife and I walked by the Apple store, and I took a video of all the people in line. Starting at the entrance of Prince Street, around the corner and down the long block of Greene Street, around the next corner, and halfway down the block on Houston Street. That's where it extended to when we walked by. From the detritus, scattered chairs and pedestrian barricades, it looked like it had extended much further before they opened doors. The block of Prince Street in front of the store was road blocked for the day.

Click for Video of iPhone line (http://www.gigantico.net).

Deimos
July 1st, 2007, 01:11 PM
I ended up spending 18 hours on the line at the Cube, and it was a fantastic experience. The people around me were all purchasing the phone for personal consumption (or for their companies). I would do it again in a heartbeat; of course AT&T is still taking their sweet-ass time in getting my new account activated :(

The best part of the day was seeing how many TV/Radio/News/Internet interviews I could get, but of course I lost count due to lack of sleep...lol. CNBC was my favorite by far (live interview at 4:15pm) and Fox News Channel was my least favorite by far (taped interview). CNBC was asking intelligent questions (the only network who really cared to ask that kind, the internet news groups were also pretty good). Fox News Channel was asking questions in such a way as to get the answer they wanted and would keep pushing until the interviewee relented and gave them exactly what they wanted. CNN was funny... they were going for human interest stories.

macreator
July 2nd, 2007, 12:12 AM
Deimos, how is it? Did you get it activated yet? I did indeed here that AT&T was having activation issues, but I thought that they had been resolved by today.

Deimos
July 4th, 2007, 01:11 PM
It's activated, although my number still hasn't ported from Verizon. I've been playing nonstop with the features that I can use (iPod, and the web and email via wifi). For a first generation product, it's pretty amazing, but I do have a few gripes which i'd expect to see improved over time, as they're mostly software related. All-in-all, the phone lived up to my expectations so far.

AT&T is beginning to give me concessions for the amount of time they've kept me waiting, so hopefully I'll be able to get all of the porting expenses reimbursed through credits on my account :-D

harsaphes
July 12th, 2007, 06:01 AM
i love mine, though my first one would not fully charge. apple store soho, quickly gave me a new one.

macreator
September 6th, 2007, 11:15 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/money/.element/img/1.0/logos/cnnmoneydotcom.gif

Apple giving $100 credit to early iPhone buyers

After the price of an 8 GB iPhone was reduced to $399 from $599, CEO Jobs agrees to give store credit to those who paid the original price.

September 6 2007: 6:37 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- After receiving hundreds of emailed complaints from existing Apple iPhone customers angry about a steep price drop, chief executive Steve Jobs says the company will give a $100 credit to certain customers who bought the gadget.

Customers who purchased an iPhone from Apple or the iPhone's sole service provider AT&T (down $0.08 to $24.02, Charts), and did not receive any rebates, will receive a $100 credit toward any purchase at an Apple retail store or on its Web site. Further details will be posted on Apple's Web site next week.

Apple recently lowered the price of its 8 gigabyte iPhone to $399 from $599.

While Jobs defended the drastic price reduction, saying every new device has price cuts and improved models on the horizon, he apologized to customers who paid the original price for the iPhone.

"We want to do the right thing for our valued iPhone customers," Jobs wrote in an email to iPhone customers. "We apologize for disappointing some of you, and we are doing our best to live up to your high expectations of Apple."

Jobs also cited hopes for a boost in holiday sales as a reason for the price reduction.

"The good news is that if you buy products from companies that support them well, like Apple tries to do, you will receive years of useful and satisfying service from them even as newer models are introduced," Jobs wrote.

Apple (down $1.75 to $135.01, Charts, Fortune 500) shares fell 1.3 percent on the Nasdaq Thursday afternoon.

lofter1
January 8th, 2011, 01:04 PM
Verizon iPhone Announcement Coming January 11: Wall Street Journal (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/07/verizon-iphone-announcement_n_806037.html)

... The move will for the first time let U.S. consumers choose the network that carries their iPhone and perhaps give them additional pricing options that could affect their monthly bills.

It will also upend the balance of power in the industry, ending Verizon rival AT&T Inc.'s exclusive hold on the device and leaving smaller players like Sprint Nextel Corp. and T-Mobile USA facing two well-capitalized competitors offering the world's most popular smartphone ...

JCMAN320
January 10th, 2011, 02:45 AM
Well I have my Droid X and I'm completely happy with it.

Ninjahedge
January 10th, 2011, 10:26 AM
I am still waiting for Data plans to be the standard and a reduction in price.

It rankles me to have to pay for something I got for free on the net for years (texting).

ZippyTheChimp
January 10th, 2011, 10:27 AM
Competition is good.

Ninjahedge
January 11th, 2011, 01:15 PM
Lets hope it is a battle for the best, and not a battle to make the other seem like the worst (ala US poliitico).

GordonGecko
January 11th, 2011, 03:11 PM
I'm staying away from the iPhone mainly because you're limited to one phone manufacturer. With Android, if a better phone comes out then all your files, apps, settings, etc.. are fully compatible and you can move on without being held hostage and having to re-learn a whole new system. Plus, the android app market is growing much faster and they're going to have the best stuff faster, especially considering there's no big brother rubber stamping every app

Ninjahedge
January 12th, 2011, 10:04 AM
True. The only downside is that being that open makes it hard to insure everything is, or will be, compatible.

It is similar to the PC/Mac computer issue, but a bit less pronounced since these smartphones are a bit more consumer oriented right from the start (unlike PC's).

I thionk that having Verizon carry the iP is great for Apple, but Verizon has its own ruleset that may make it a nightmare to get some things to work on the phone.

Their own proprietary format (CDMA? Or is that AT+T's format and Verizon is another) is only available in 40 countries worldwide... those countries MAY be the only ones you would ever visit, but still.....

Other limitations, like not being able to call and be online at the same time are also a bit of a problem, but seeing how most don't do both on the same machine, it will be limited. The only way this particular shortcoming might prove to be a problem is with the added benefit of 5 device WiFi hotspotting that Verizon offers. If someone calls, the WiFi stops......

I am just hoping that both competition and pervalence will allow most CASUAL users to be able to get some of these phones for less than an arm and an ear and pay quite a bit less than the "discount" data plans they have been offering the past few years....

Teno
January 12th, 2011, 01:58 PM
This isn't entirely true assessment of Android. Have you looked at different Android phones? They look and work differently across each manufacturer and different between each carrier.

Android is a completely open operating system so that the phone manufacturer and the carrier can modify anything they want. They all do modify it a lot. To the point where the same app doesn't always work on all of the phones. The angry birds game is one example of the problem: Angry Birds Shows What Android Fragmentation Means (http://gizmodo.com/5693428/angry-birds-shows-what-android-fragmentation-means)

Android app market is not outgrowing the iOS App store: Android Market 210,000 apps - iOS App Store 400,000. Developers are finding that Android users are less willing to pay for apps than iOS users. Many developers are not moving over to Android as quickly as others until they can figure out a business model for it.

If you are locked into a two year contract, what does it matter if Android manufacturers release new phones every other week? After two years on the iPhone Apple will have also released a better phone.


I'm staying away from the iPhone mainly because you're limited to one phone manufacturer. With Android, if a better phone comes out then all your files, apps, settings, etc.. are fully compatible and you can move on without being held hostage and having to re-learn a whole new system. Plus, the android app market is growing much faster and they're going to have the best stuff faster, especially considering there's no big brother rubber stamping every app

Teno
January 12th, 2011, 02:11 PM
It is similar to the PC/Mac computer issue, but a bit less pronounced since these smartphones are a bit more consumer oriented right from the start (unlike PC's).

You mean if someone is attempting to switch from a PC to Mac?


I think that having Verizon carry the iP is great for Apple, but Verizon has its own ruleset that may make it a nightmare to get some things to work on the phone.

As I thought Apple isn't allowing Verizon to pull any of their normal shenanigans. Verizon has to play by Apple's rules.


Their own proprietary format (CDMA? Or is that AT+T's format and Verizon is another) is only available in 40 countries worldwide... those countries MAY be the only ones you would ever visit, but still.....

No CDMA isn't proprietary to Verizon. Sprint uses CDMA. Its just a different network technology than GSM, which is what AT&T/ T-Mobile and the majority of the world uses.


Other limitations, like not being able to call and be online at the same time are also a bit of a problem, but seeing how most don't do both on the same machine, it will be limited.

Actually you find that being on a call and being online at the same time comes in very handy at very unexpected moments. Like using your phone as a GPS device. Its something that you actually take for granted.


I am just hoping that both competition and pervalence will allow most CASUAL users to be able to get some of these phones for less than an arm and an ear and pay quite a bit less than the "discount" data plans they have been offering the past few years....

Primarily this is what Android is going to do. Android is working its way down into the phones that you get for free with 2 year contract. The trade off is that the carriers will load those phones with their own locked in services. Like Verizon VCAST and VZ Navigator. Android is a far superior operating system from the crap free phones were using previously. So people will be getting a better phone in many ways.

The iPhone won't really cater to the free phone crowd. AT&T is selling the older iPhone 3GS for $49.

Teno
January 12th, 2011, 02:20 PM
When you say data to be standard, do you mean included in the price?

The reality is that data is where all the revenue growth is for the mobile carriers. Phones are being used far more for text and data than for making phone calls. That is what the whole "4G" marketing push is about. They are increasing the network speed so they can charge more. Trying to get people excited about "4G" so they will be willing to pay more for it.

Also things like tethering and WiFi hot spots are to encourage more data use that people will pay for.


I am still waiting for Data plans to be the standard and a reduction in price.

It rankles me to have to pay for something I got for free on the net for years (texting).

lofter1
January 12th, 2011, 02:42 PM
Reports state that Verizon iPhone will only allow one use at a time (call / data) rather than those uses occurring simultaneously.

Ninjahedge
January 12th, 2011, 02:58 PM
Teno,

I am actually saying more along the lines of not making it seem like Texting is a premium service that requires an additional payment. That since things like WiFi hotspotting, high speed streaming and other higher-bandwidth features are now considered the pay-me premiums, that things such as low-BW transmission, or texting become as common as "free voicemail" has been for the past, what, 10/15 years? (i believe you had to pay extra even for that, way back when).

As for the format, I am getting this from PCWrold magazine. they had a short article on the ups and downs on the service. Verizon is playing games with Apple, some of which are just because its networks do not support some of the things that Apple/ATT customers are used to, but I would not be surprised AT ALL that Apple will give certain concessions to Verizon (such as default apps and menu space) so long as they do not limit Apples chance to make money as well (App store, et all).

Apple just does not want 2 main things.

1. That Verizons limitations cripple their phones marketed capabilities.
2. That they will be placed in direct competition with Verizon in the real of sales (i don't know if Vcast or VZnav would even be allowed... Nevermind Verizons app store...)

As for my PC/Mac comparison, I was comparing it to the accessability of each platform.

On the PC almost anyone can make an app, can make hardware for it and do other things. It is a more accessable system for development. Apple restricts this for many reasons, some good, some bad, but bottom line is, Apple works with Apple.

But the niche for phones is much more a service industry than a tech industry. People want things to be easy and work and look cool more than they want power and open source. So even things like Android have to try to be a little more coherent than they would in the PC world.

So, I am not talking about switching at all, but more along the lines of what phone someone chooses and why....

I am just hoping the competition inspires both to offer more for less.

Ninjahedge
January 12th, 2011, 03:00 PM
http://www.pcworld.com/article/216466/whats_the_difference_between_the_verizon_and_atand t_iphone.html?tk=nl_dnx_t_crawl

http://zapp5.staticworld.net//news/graphics/216466-iphone_att_vzv_chart_original.jpg

DMAG
January 12th, 2011, 03:01 PM
Remember while data/phone at the same time doesn't just mean you can't just watch funny cat videos while on a call....you can't use your personal hotspot, get navigation, push alerts or buy those tickets you are talking about on the very call. (Which makes me wonder what happens if you are using your personal hotspot on your laptop and get a call? Does your connection get dropped to your laptop or does the call not go through?)

For those that use their phone as a personal office or navigator or hotspot, it does have it's downsides. However, I don't see that as being much of a deterrent for those that have been waiting for the opportunity to get an iPhone that is not on AT&T.

Legalise: I am an iPhone user on AT&T and don't plan on jumping ship to Verizon.

Ninjahedge
January 12th, 2011, 03:01 PM
Don't buy.....yet?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/216423/dont_buy_the_verizon_iphoneyet.html?tk=nl_dnx_t_cr awl

Teno
January 12th, 2011, 03:41 PM
Teno, I am actually saying more along the lines of not making it seem like Texting is a premium service that requires an additional payment. That since things like WiFi hotspotting, high speed streaming and other higher-bandwidth features are now considered the pay-me premiums, that things such as low-BW transmission, or texting become as common as "free voicemail" has been for the past, what, 10/15 years? (i believe you had to pay extra even for that, way back when).

You are correct that the ability to send text has been built into the mobile communications system from the beginning. It costs them next to nothing for people to use it. If people don't want to pay for it, they are free to use any of the instant messaging services available that are free.


As for the format, I am getting this from PCWrold magazine. they had a short article on the ups and downs on the service. Verizon is playing games with Apple, some of which are just because its networks do not support some of the things that Apple/ATT customers are used to, but I would not be surprised AT ALL that Apple will give certain concessions to Verizon (such as default apps and menu space) so long as they do not limit Apples chance to make money as well (App store, et all).

What games is Verizon playing with Apple? CDMA/EVDO cannot do voice/data at the same time. That is a limitation of the technology, not something that Verizon decided.

Apple has already stated that for the customer. The Verizon iPhone will appear indistinguishable from the AT&T iPhone. Verizon will not be allowed to pre-load anything. Verizon is free to offer additional services through the App Store just like everyone else.

Apple doesn't make any profit directly from the App Store.



On the PC almost anyone can make an app, can make hardware for it and do other things. It is a more accessable system for development. Apple restricts this for many reasons, some good, some bad, but bottom line is, Apple works with Apple.

Anyone is free to create software for the Mac, you just are not allowed to create the hardware. Apple practically gives away its software, the majority of its profit comes from the hardware.


But the niche for phones is much more a service industry than a tech industry. People want things to be easy and work and look cool more than they want power and open source. So even things like Android have to try to be a little more coherent than they would in the PC world.

You are right people want their phone to be as reliable as a home appliance and not deal with the hassles of a computer. In many ways Android brings the hassle of dealing with a computer.

Teno
January 12th, 2011, 03:43 PM
Yes the iPhone is always going to prioritize a phone call over every other function. So if you are using it as a WiFi hot spot the WiFi signal will get dropped when a call comes in.


(Which makes me wonder what happens if you are using your personal hotspot on your laptop and get a call? Does your connection get dropped to your laptop or does the call not go through?)

GordonGecko
January 12th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Android is a completely open operating system so that the phone manufacturer and the carrier can modify anything they want. They all do modify it a lot. To the point where the same app doesn't always work on all of the phones. The angry birds game is one example of the problem: Angry Birds Shows What Android Fragmentation Means (http://gizmodo.com/5693428/angry-birds-shows-what-android-fragmentation-means)
That has nothing to do with proprietary modification. Angry Bird doesn't work on many phones because those phones are simply outdated (we live in a fast moving tech world). That's no different than the past 15 years or so when game manufacturers forced to you to get a new video card, more powerful motherboard, fast processor, etc etc as new advances were made. If you get a phone with the latest 2.2 OS, then you're good to go. Problem is obviously for people locked into a 2 year deal. In practice that's usually a 1.5 year deal if you promise to extend another 2 years with a new phone, but still you should be prepared to be outdated for a period of time unless you put out full retail for a new device (which isn't so bad if you sell your old phone for a decent price)

Teno
January 12th, 2011, 04:31 PM
So fast that a phone that isn't even a year old yet is outdated? Look at the list of phones that don't support Angry Birds, only a couple of them are over a year old when this article was printed.

The other part is that not all Android phones even run the same version of the OS. Some are on 2.3, some on 2.2, others on 2.1. There are brand new phones that are launched with an older version of the OS installed without any knowledge of when it will be updated. How is a developer supposed to reliably develop for that?


That has nothing to do with proprietary modification. Angry Bird doesn't work on many phones because those phones are simply outdated (we live in a fast moving tech world).

GordonGecko
January 14th, 2011, 02:53 PM
Developers should always build for the lowest common denominator that still is able to achieve their design goals. If you want to employ all the state of the art tools, then your users have to have state of the art hardware. That's no different than it's always been in the computer world. Moore's law, computing power doubles every 1.5 years, you are necessarily severely behind within 2 years

STR
January 14th, 2011, 09:52 PM
The other part is that not all Android phones even run the same version of the OS. Some are on 2.3, some on 2.2, others on 2.1. There are brand new phones that are launched with an older version of the OS installed without any knowledge of when it will be updated. How is a developer supposed to reliably develop for that?

Same way a developer programs for Windows 7, Vista and XP. Rovio themselves have said (after being misquoted by Steve Jobs) they haven't had a problem with different Android versions.

Ninjahedge
January 17th, 2011, 12:52 PM
The key is simple.

USUALLY, when you have a version of an OS come out, the decimal indicates a base compatibility between them, and possibly extra features, improvements and problems solved.

So, if you wrote something to work on 2.1, it should work in 2.3. Same thing with many programs and their own save states (AutoCAD being an example).

The main problem is when you get an inexperienced design crew trying to do something on the latest rather than the most popular base because there are some neat things they want to utilize.

The OTHER problem you get is when a developer uses something that was not 100% stable in the first place (or later proves to be a security hole with no easily applied fix). I believe IE had one of those recently and they pretty much shut down the associated capability altogether rather than come up with something to fix it (it was not a pinhole leak, it was a small, but deep, fissure).

The real problem a developer would have would not be the base OS, but the problem of writing for two other variables which are not always played to the same common denominator.

1. Hardware. Simply put, some things do more than others. Even though Android may be able to make a WiFi hotspot, your machine may not. Also, certain other features like Multitasking and the like may not easily integrate with what is available, which also leads to...

2. Infrastructure and Contractual Service Agreements. Verizon is the example of where this can go wrong. Their own system is what makes it so that you cannot use the data and the phone at the same time, not the hardware or software. The other thing is little thongs like the way Verizon runs their service.

Somehow you can't BUY a little flash app for your phone that would cost you 99 online? You have to RENT it for $3.99 a month? Other policy pieces makes it difficult to program something for everyone when some may not have those features enabled.


Anyway, that brings us back to the latest. Although there may be many that would be effected by Verizon not being able to go dual, it is not a vital accessory. The better coverage area might more than make up for it.

What I am hoping for is competition. I do not see an all-in-one family plan dropping like a stone, but maybe they might be more enticed to offer a few more dangling carrots to the cheapo's like myself waiting in the wings for the opportunity to surf on the crapper at work... :rolleyes:

Teno
January 17th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Developers do not develop for the lowest common denominator. It really depends on what type of application you are creating. Word processing apps don't generally demand very much so they can support older hardware pretty well. An application that is graphics or audio intensive. There is little purpose in supporting hardware that will not allow the application to perform its job.

These are the types of problems that we've come to live with in computers. Phones are different. Phones are appliances and not computers. Despite the fact that phones are gaining the capabilities and functionalities of computers, few people are really going to want to bring the inconvenience of a computer. How would software advance if developers are busy worried about people running old machines? The answer is that they don't.

What Angry Birds had to do to deal with the various types of Android phones running different versions of the OS was to create an Angry Birds lite, to run on the less capable phones. So far Android itself has not proven lucrative enough for most developers to put this much effort into it.

Apple realizes all of this and has made the process much simpler. Because Apple controls everything from the hardware, OS, and software development. The capability to run across different versions of the iPhone is built into the software. If someone is still using an older iPhone and downloads a newer application. Apple has built within the system that the application will not run any functionality that an older phone or older OS does not support. Most of the apps will work on older iPhones, just not all of the functions will work. People are buying new iPhones at such a rate that supporting the old phones as not been that necessary.




Developers should always build for the lowest common denominator that still is able to achieve their design goals. If you want to employ all the state of the art tools, then your users have to have state of the art hardware. That's no different than it's always been in the computer world. Moore's law, computing power doubles every 1.5 years, you are necessarily severely behind within 2 years

Teno
January 17th, 2011, 01:26 PM
It was people complaining that Angry Birds did not work on some Android phones is what started all of this. Rovio has downplayed the issue, by saying they have no problem creating Angry Bird lite for Android phones that cannot run the full Angry Birds.

To your point we don't want phones to be like Windows 7, Vista, and XP. That is the absolute worst development model.

Apple does not allow development for Mac OS X to be like Windows. To prevent the Mac from becoming that mess. Apple totally abandons old technology and no longer supports it at all. Developers are forced to make their apps for the newest OS. Mac users are forced to upgrade their machines to newest OS. If your machine does not support the newest OS you are forced to buy a new computer.


Same way a developer programs for Windows 7, Vista and XP. Rovio themselves have said (after being misquoted by Steve Jobs) they haven't had a problem with different Android versions.

GordonGecko
January 17th, 2011, 04:40 PM
These are the types of problems that we've come to live with in computers. Phones are different. Phones are appliances and not computers. Despite the fact that phones are gaining the capabilities and functionalities of computers, few people are really going to want to bring the inconvenience of a computer. How would software advance if developers are busy worried about people running old machines? The answer is that they don't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the phones work on 100% of these devices. Dial the number, your phone rings on any OS version.

We are in fact talking about the computer part and all these neat state of the art functions that the apps (computer programs) take advantage of. I'd much rather always have a shot at the very latest functions (Android) than have to wait for Steve Jobs' development cycle decisions

lofter1
January 17th, 2011, 05:05 PM
The real purpose of Apps ...

Mobile Apps Come With Huge Privacy Loopholes, Little Transparency (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/mobile-apps-come-with-huge-privacy-loopholes-and-little-transparency.php?ref=fpblg)

Funny how folks now PAY to have their personal info taken from them.

Teno
January 17th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the phones work on 100% of these devices. Dial the number, your phone rings on any OS version.

The phone software (making calls/receiving calls) is an application on the OS just like every other application. The phone is given higher priority than every other application. No it does not work entirely independently of everything else. If an application crashes, freezes, or runs the battery out. That can affect making and receiving phone calls.


We are in fact talking about the computer part and all these neat state of the art functions that the apps (computer programs) take advantage of. I'd much rather always have a shot at the very latest functions (Android) than have to wait for Steve Jobs' development cycle decisions

The whole phone is a computer. Everything it uses is an application.

What are the very latest functions that Android uses and the iPhone does not? A bonus round question, can you find an Android phone that functions the way it does now before the iPhone? Hmmm.......

Teno
January 17th, 2011, 05:14 PM
I would have to say this article is a bit alarmist in the sense that every major website does much of this same thing. Our usage is already being tracked, recorded, and sold. That pretty much is Google and Facebook's whole business model.

On the iPhone apps have to get permission to gain access to your location information, access your contacts, and so on. So that's really up to the user.


The real purpose of Apps ...

Mobile Apps Come With Huge Privacy Loopholes, Little Transparency (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/mobile-apps-come-with-huge-privacy-loopholes-and-little-transparency.php?ref=fpblg)

Funny how folks now PAY to have their personal info taken from them.

Ninjahedge
January 18th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Teno, relax.

You are splitting hairs and beating babies. the point is minor, at best. If you only release ONE phone every year and a half it is a lot easier to make sure everything works on it.

Still, even Apple has had its share of problems (the latest was the reception problem due to the latest antenna placement and metal rim, combined with the creative labelling of battery power icons that did not give an accurate idea about how much juice was actually left on the battery... that has since been partially amended).

I am just wondering how long this can last. The one thing that made the iPhone popular was that it was so much different than what was out there. It was a consumer toy that many wanted to have because it did not LOOK like a geek instrument (graphing calculator, or one of the older MP3 players), it was relatively easy to use, and it was NEW.

The more people that get these, ironically, the more problems they may have in keeping all of them.

When we went to Japan, the strangest thing we saw was the obcession with cell phone technology. Everybody wanted something new and "better" ASAP. When everyone else has the same thing, it loses its "OMG" factor, which is an important thing when going Glam-Tech.

I will be interested to see if Apple tries to shoot this one down before it starts showing with, possibly, alternatives to its own product (Say the iP-Mini? Similar in desired function to the micro iPod?).

Having the latest and greatest is a lot less fun when everyone you know has it too.

Teno
January 18th, 2011, 12:37 PM
Teno, relax. You are splitting hairs and beating babies. the point is minor, at best.

I don't understand what you are talking about.


If you only release ONE phone every year and a half it is a lot easier to make sure everything works on it.

Well......that's the whole point.


Still, even Apple has had its share of problems (the latest was the reception problem due to the latest antenna placement and metal rim, combined with the creative labelling of battery power icons that did not give an accurate idea about how much juice was actually left on the battery... that has since been partially amended).

Actually it was the signal reception icon that had to be adjusted not the battery indicator. There is no standard for how signal reception is measured Apple was being too generous and had to adjust it to show their was less signal.

The antenna placement is such a problem that Apple has changed nothing about it and the iPhone 4 has far outsold every iPhone before it.


I am just wondering how long this can last. The one thing that made the iPhone popular was that it was so much different than what was out there. It was a consumer toy that many wanted to have because it did not LOOK like a geek instrument (graphing calculator, or one of the older MP3 players), it was relatively easy to use, and it was NEW.

You have to understand what really makes the iPhone different. You are right others are copying how it looks. Everyone likes to run the laundry list of features that other phones have like the iPhone or perhaps an even longer list than the iPhone. But that feature list isn't the point at all.

The iPhone isn't so popular simply because of how it looks. Its popular because of its functionality. Its popular because of Apple's attention to the small details that no one else focuses on. Other phones look like the iPhone but they do not function like the iPhone.


When we went to Japan, the strangest thing we saw was the obcession with cell phone technology. Everybody wanted something new and "better" ASAP. When everyone else has the same thing, it loses its "OMG" factor, which is an important thing when going Glam-Tech.

There are those who predicted that the iPhone would be a failure in Japan and S. Korea.

iPhone Is Big in Japan (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703315404575250921648983384.html)

More than 1 million iPhone sales in Korea (http://www.tuaw.com/2010/09/22/more-than-1-million-iphone-sales-in-korea/)

While both the Japanese and S. Koreans remain fiercely loyal to their own countries manufacturers. The iPhone has been fortunate with sales that no other western phone manufacturer has ever had in those two countries.

The Japanese are all about hardware and are not good at software design. The success of the iPhone (and Android) is all about the software.

Ninjahedge
January 18th, 2011, 12:57 PM
Teno, I was not saying it is ALL about looks, but look at the instrument itself. It is a "crossover" piece in that, on a large scale, it is being used by non-technical people.

They had great success with their iPods because they focused more on the UI than the actual tech specs. Between that and the LOOK, people were more willing to go for something that forced them to use a proprietary interface and install more software than a drag-drop-and-play machine.

That and the advertising, which almost NEVER said what the device could actually DO, showed happy people dancing around with signature cheap earphones. Absolute BRILLIANT marketing. It was a reactionary anti-technology extension of the same line of emotive sales they used when they kept dissing the PC like owning one made one an absolute social reject.

They made it cool to carry a piece of technology. Once that happened, people did not care about the price. Again, brilliant marketing (they hit the sweet spot).

They then took a similar design scheme (AAMOF, the latest iPad at the time looked a LOT like the first iPhone, if I remember right....) and went with it.

People STILL liked it and went with that. It was different, easy, expensive as hell to own and operate but who CARES, I can surf while walking into traffic! ;) (All providers have those, not just Apple/ATT).

As for people having problems with the antenna and still buying? Again, when you break logic and stats away from a product, people are willing to put up with an AWFUL lot before going back. Ford is a classic example. They had, at one time, one of the best vehicles in production. But that quickly switched and the short sighter CEO's just kept trying to make more money with cheaper and cheaper production.

That worked for many years, with quite a few people unwilling to buy anythnig but Ford (the F150 is a classic, and still pertinent example).

But people finally hit the point where they did not like buying a name, a perception, and started looking deeper. They jumped ship on Ford (and a lot of American brands).

Will this happen to Apple? Maybe. They have not cut the same corners as Ford. They have done things like not including a standard set of interfaces (USB? Fire-WIre) on their latest tablet that should have been no-brainers, but people STILL ran out and bought the first of those.

That just ain't logical.

That is an emotional response, and that is also what carries the Phone. Something that will not kill the phone like funky reception will not prevent an emotional response to something a person has grown attached to.

The only thing Apple has to be careful of is eroding that emotional base they spent so much time or money building up. As evidenced by stockholders willing to run away scared at the remote risk of Jobs not being with us anymore, emotional foundations are VERY fickle.

I am sure they are taking additional steps to try to avoid this in the future, but it is something to watch for.

Now back to Android.... I think they have a good shot here. The only problem is that they still have that techie feel to them that scares off many people. Even calling it "Droid" may make many men go "KOOL!!!", it will scare a lot of non-techies away from something that seems to promise a bunch of stuff that they will not understand how to use and make them feel stupid (whether they have that stuff or not).

Phones are a tricky market, as computers are becoming. The only way many of these technical companies will survive is if they concern themselves less with what is actually under the hood and when they can make it feel more like a good oven or lawnmower rather than something you have to call up your nephew to help you set up right.....

Teno
January 18th, 2011, 02:10 PM
They made it cool to carry a piece of technology. Once that happened, people did not care about the price. Again, brilliant marketing (they hit the sweet spot).

You are right in that Apple is good at something that curiously the other tech companies seem to have trouble figuring out. Apple rarely lists tech specs, instead emphasizing how fun it is to use their products. While most everyone else touts an alphabet soup of tech speak that few people understand.


They then took a similar design scheme (AAMOF, the latest iPad at the time looked a LOT like the first iPhone, if I remember right....) and went with it.

Steve Jobs said that they were working on the iPad first before the iPhone. But he became more excited about the iPhone and decided to wait for technology to improve before they introduced the iPad.

The iPad and iPhone use the same operating system, but the user interface is adjusted to be appropriate for the screen size. On the left is the iPhone email client on the right is the iPad email client.

http://photos.appleinsider.com/ipad2.ppi.011711.003.jpg


People STILL liked it and went with that. It was different, easy, expensive as hell to own and operate but who CARES....

What exactly is so expensive about the iPad?


As for people having problems with the antenna and still buying? Again, when you break logic and stats away from a product, people are willing to put up with an AWFUL lot before going back.

Actually every survey of mobile phone users always place the iPhone far above everyone else. You really think Apple's marketing is so good that people would report high satisfaction for a device that you use multiple times a day - everyday?


They have done things like not including a standard set of interfaces (USB? Fire-WIre) on their latest tablet that should have been no-brainers, but people STILL ran out and bought the first of those.

That just ain't logical.

Depends on what sets of logic you are using. Apple constantly abandons technology and moves on to something else. In 1999, Apple was the first computer company to abandon parallel ports and floppy disks across its entire line of computers. To adopt USB ports, FireWire ports, and DVD drives. People thought they were completely insane. Now people say they were visionary.

Apple is not continuing to support USB, FireWire, or DVD in its newest platform of devices and people again find it crazy. You just have to see the method in their madness. Apple is replacing USB, FireWire, and DVD with:

http://images.apple.com/mobileme/images/overview_hero_mobileme_20101001.png
Cloud Computing


http://images.apple.com/ios/images/airprint20101123.jpg
AirPrint, wireless printing


http://images.apple.com/ios/images/airplay20101116.jpg
AirPlay, wireless media streaming


http://www.gadgetlite.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/sandisk-32gb-sdhc-card.jpg
solid state storage cards




The only thing Apple has to be careful of is eroding that emotional base they spent so much time or money building up. As evidenced by stockholders willing to run away scared at the remote risk of Jobs not being with us anymore, emotional foundations are VERY fickle.

What happens on the stock market has little to do with the consumer adoption of Apple's products.


I am sure they are taking additional steps to try to avoid this in the future, but it is something to watch for.

What additional steps can they take to avoid the eventual death of Steve Jobs?


Now back to Android.... I think they have a good shot here. The only problem is that they still have that techie feel to them that scares off many people. Even calling it "Droid" may make many men go "KOOL!!!", it will scare a lot of non-techies away from something that seems to promise a bunch of stuff that they will not understand how to use and make them feel stupid (whether they have that stuff or not).

I have quite a few friends who have Android phones. Primarily people who've never owned a smartphone or people who previously owned a Blackberry, so Android is a big step up for them. I don't know any who is a current iPhone user that is remotely interested in Android. Androids popularity will be in picking up people who previously used really crappy or cheap phones.


Phones are a tricky market, as computers are becoming. The only way many of these technical companies will survive is if they concern themselves less with what is actually under the hood and when they can make it feel more like a good oven or lawnmower rather than something you have to call up your nephew to help you set up right.....

Yep, I agree.

Ninjahedge
January 18th, 2011, 03:36 PM
Steve Jobs said that they were working on the iPad first before the iPhone. But he became more excited about the iPhone and decided to wait for technology to improve before they introduced the iPad.

That was good in that I think they reached a spot that fit the need. Too many others have been introduced before people were ready for it or the tech was capable of delivering what they wanted (mostly recreational/browsing/multimedia).


The iPad and iPhone use the same operating system, but the user interface is adjusted to be appropriate for the screen size. On the left is the iPhone email client on the right is the iPad email client.

What exactly is so expensive about the iPad?

Maybe the grammar was confusing, but I was referring to the phone.

The Pad is also expensive in that it tops the list for something that is essentially a gadget. It is still not a very productive instrument in that it will not replace a laptop, or a desktop. $600 is as expensive as a decent LCD TV, some middle-of-the-road laptops, a decent home built system, and a very good AV receiver....

I am not saying it is not worth it, although I personally do not think it is, but it is a very expensive toy.

The one that I was referring to cost was the Phone. The cost of operation not being 100% Apples fault, but those that want to get people suscribed to their services to pay $5 a month to send text messages that, if everyone were to simultaneously send one, would make their system laugh at the tickle-feeling it gets.

Ah, I see where I crossed up. What I meant to say was that iPod was similar to the phone.

The OS and other things seem to follow suit. iPod -> iPhone -> iPad. YMMV.


Actually every survey of mobile phone users always place the iPhone far above everyone else. You really think Apple's marketing is so good that people would report high satisfaction for a device that you use multiple times a day - everyday?

Yes! ;)

That is the purpose of making a product emotional! I am not saying that Apple missed the mark, but for people to rave about something they need to buy something to correct a problem with (the antenna thinger) and still have no complaints, it goes beyond just quality.

It is brand loyalty.

That, in and of itself is almost a full corse study in marketing school!!! ;)


Depends on what sets of logic you are using. Apple constantly abandons technology and moves on to something else. In 1999, Apple was the first computer company to abandon parallel ports and floppy disks across its entire line of computers. To adopt USB ports, FireWire ports, and DVD drives. People thought they were completely insane. Now people say they were visionary.

Nobody but apple fans say they were visionary for getting rid of the floppy drive.

Even in the PC world, the Parallel and Floppy were only marginally useful. Usually by people that had older equipment.

Since that number was relatively low, Apple figured it was a safe bet to ditch them. MOST of their clientelle would not miss it, and the few they would lose (ones willing to give up their platform because their older plotter or scanner could not hook up) were not enough to warrant making their smaller devices, their chic machines, physically large enough to hold them.

Not a high risk there, but a well played one.

Hell, I have not installed a floppy in the last two machines (5+ years) I have built myself. I still have it in my closet JIC though!;)


Apple is not continuing to support USB, FireWire, or DVD in its newest platform of devices and people again find it crazy. You just have to see the method in their madness. Apple is replacing USB, FireWire, and DVD with:

No, they are not replacing anything. They know a few things.

1. This is not a production/work machine.
2. EVERYTHING uses those ports now. Why use something that someone else can hook up to (FireWire used to be all Apple....)?
3. It costs more money and takes more space. It was easier for them to exclude a port and say "we are thinking ahead" than to figure a way to include it and keep their development cost down among other things.

Many have found that petty, and has been one of their more prominent complaints. So much that word is out that their second edition of the Pad is said to have one (FW or USB, i am not sure....)


What happens on the stock market has little to do with the consumer adoption of Apple's products.

Vice versa.

The stock market is now what the public and investment firms believe WILL be the consumer adoption of Apple's products.

And it is partially right. Steve has been the figure head that has gotten people to think about it. The spokesperson that they believe. When people get emotional about technology, they get attached to certain things, people being one of them. It WILL hurt Apple if the lose Steve, even though much of what is done is probably not coming directly from him (anymore).

It does not matter. People perceive it that way and it will hurt Apple.

Like I said, EMOTION is tricky. It does not have to make perfect sense to do what it wants.....


What additional steps can they take to avoid the eventual death of Steve Jobs?

Rhetorical.

Carvel has not been what it was without that mushy sounding voice (Tom Carvel?) that advertised for them.

Fudgy the whale has never been quite the same! ;)


I have quite a few friends who have Android phones. Primarily people who've never owned a smartphone or people who previously owned a Blackberry, so Android is a big step up for them. I don't know any who is a current iPhone user that is remotely interested in Android. Androids popularity will be in picking up people who previously used really crappy or cheap phones.

It is the tech phobia and the general non-tech acceptance of the product. I am not denying it.

The thing is, Android is a newb. The more it is seen, and the more they put out for it, the more individual hooks they may find. It all depends on how they do this.

They do need to, however, team up a bit and combine their advertising and development revenue to try and get people more interested in it.

Even with fast development, they will not unseat the king if there is infighting amongst the various factions....

I have not seen much "Ours is better than yours" advertising to that effect, so the possibility is still there....


Yep, I agree.

And that is what is keeping Apple floating.

The two things that are a concern are:

1. Consumer Electronics companies putting $$ into the fray. Unlike computer manufacturers, they are more familiar with trying to please the consumer.
2. Copycats. The Koreans are VERY good at this (see Hyundai). As the iP's get more popular there, get ready for a bit of Tech-Jacking.

Will they be as smooth as the Apple product line? Not likely, but chances are they will be significantly cheaper for something a little to similar to ignore....

We will see. Apple may be able to keep kind of an LV-baggage social status assignment on its products, but it is hard to ignore a product that can stand toe to toe for much less regardless of the inherent "quality" inferred by the name.....

Teno
January 18th, 2011, 05:13 PM
That is the purpose of making a product emotional! I am not saying that Apple missed the mark, but for people to rave about something they need to buy something to correct a problem with (the antenna thinger) and still have no complaints, it goes beyond just quality.

It is brand loyalty.

That, in and of itself is almost a full corse study in marketing school!!! ;)

I don't agree with this. Under certain circumstances a company can get away for a period of time with an inferior product or service. The advantage of the capitalistic system is that someone will eventually come along with a better idea. Our system is too competitive and too diverse for someone to get away with a bad product for too long. Companies that try to hold on to old, outdated, or broken business modes are run out of business. It happens all the time.

The mobile phone market is far too diverse and competitive for anyone to get away with an inferior product. Motorola and HTC are thankful for Android. They had nothing else to compete with the iPhone.

As far as the antenna issue. The point I'm trying to make is that it was made a big issue of in the tech press. But in real life it turned out to not be that big of a deal. You don't hear anyone talking about it now, Apple did nothing to fix it.


Nobody but apple fans say they were visionary for getting rid of the floppy drive.

Even in the PC world, the Parallel and Floppy were only marginally useful. Usually by people that had older equipment.

Since that number was relatively low, Apple figured it was a safe bet to ditch them. MOST of their clientelle would not miss it, and the few they would lose (ones willing to give up their platform because their older plotter or scanner could not hook up) were not enough to warrant making their smaller devices, their chic machines, physically large enough to hold them.

Not a high risk there, but a well played one.

Hell, I have not installed a floppy in the last two machines (5+ years) I have built myself. I still have it in my closet JIC though!;)

You are looking at it through the perspective of today. None of this was the case 11 years ago.

Through the 90's parallel ports were the primary way to connect peripheral devices and floppy disks were the primary way store information. In 1999 when Apple completely abandoned them most peripherals were still using parallel ports, most computers still used floppy drives. I had to have a parallel to USB adaptor for my iMac because very few peripherals supported USB or Firewire at the time.




1. This is not a production/work machine.

Oh really? Why doesn't someone tell that to the developers creating:

http://images.apple.com/ipad/business/apps/images/screens/Pages_20100901.jpg
Word Processing Apps


http://images.apple.com/ipad/business/apps/images/screens/Roambi_20100901.jpg
Sales Analytics Apps


http://images.apple.com/ipad/business/apps/images/screens/SketchBookPro_20100901.jpg
Photo Editing Apps


http://images.apple.com/ipad/business/apps/images/screens/AirStrip_20101210.jpg
EKG Monitoring Apps


http://www.mobiledotdev.com/images/Showcase/MuscleIpad.png
Anatomy Apps


http://www.touchpress.com/images/home-iPad.jpg
Periodic Table Apps


http://gyratorytech.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/amplitube2ipad.jpg
Musical Apps


2. EVERYTHING uses those ports now. Why use something that someone else can hook up to (FireWire used to be all Apple....)?

Because of the advancement of wireless networking. There is becoming less need to connect devices through wires.

The MacBook Air doesn't have an optical drive at all, its Apple's best selling laptop. Most people cannot imagine not having an optical drive. But how often do you honestly use the optical drive in your computer?


3. It costs more money and takes more space. It was easier for them to exclude a port and say "we are thinking ahead" than to figure a way to include it and keep their development cost down among other things.

What evidence do you have to prove this true? Or are you just making stuff up?


Many have found that petty, and has been one of their more prominent complaints. So much that word is out that their second edition of the Pad is said to have one (FW or USB, i am not sure....)

That's just a rumor. I guarantee you the iPad 2 will not have a USB port.




Vice versa.

The stock market is now what the public and investment firms believe WILL be the consumer adoption of Apple's products.

Apple's stock is at a historic high. Where do you see Wall Street doubting its future?



The thing is, Android is a newb. The more it is seen, and the more they put out for it, the more individual hooks they may find. It all depends on how they do this.

The first Android phone was released in October of 2008, about 16 months after the launch of the original iPhone. Its first year Android was largely ignored. It didn't begin to gain serious attention until Fall of 2009. In that time Android took on more of the look and feel of the iPhone.


Even with fast development, they will not unseat the king if there is infighting amongst the various factions....

Motorola, HTC, Samsung are competitors. They aren't going to do anything to help the other.



1. Consumer Electronics companies putting $$ into the fray. Unlike computer manufacturers, they are more familiar with trying to please the consumer.

Computer manufacturers don't know how to please their customers? Where do you get this stuff Ninja? How do they stay in business if they don't please their customers?


2. Copycats. The Koreans are VERY good at this (see Hyundai). As the iP's get more popular there, get ready for a bit of Tech-Jacking.

The Chinese have already tried to copy the iPhone. As I said before its not about how it looks, its more about how it functions. You have to be excellent at software design to copy functionality.


Will they be as smooth as the Apple product line? Not likely, but chances are they will be significantly cheaper for something a little to similar to ignore....

That's what Android is already doing.


We will see. Apple may be able to keep kind of an LV-baggage social status assignment on its products, but it is hard to ignore a product that can stand toe to toe for much less regardless of the inherent "quality" inferred by the name.....

That's the part you have to understand is that Apple never stops. Everyone is copying what Apple did yesterday. Apple has already moved on to tomorrow.

Teno
January 18th, 2011, 05:39 PM
I don't know how old you are. But back in 1999 few people perceived that parallel ports and floppy disks were about to go away. Apple also began supporting WiFi in 1999. I don't know of very many people who had wireless internet networks in 1999. At that point few people imagined that wireless internet would soon become the norm.

Its the same right now. You cannot imagine using a device that connects to other devices without wires. Before long wireless printing will be so common that it will seem like it was always that way. Or wirelessly sharing media and documents between devices will be so common we won't remember what it was like before it was possible.


Nobody but apple fans say they were visionary for getting rid of the floppy drive.

Teno
January 18th, 2011, 06:31 PM
An interesting take on the open unfocused business model of Android.

The Samsung Secret - Why U.S. Galaxy S Phones run Android 2.1 Still (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=913045)

Ninjahedge
January 19th, 2011, 08:14 AM
Teno,

I will look through the rest of the thread later,

But showing a touch screen typing pad/WP is NOT a productive instrument. have you tried doing touch typing on a touch screen? There is little tactile response and it is VERY easy to typo. That is what people STILL like about the fold out keypads on phones (otherwise, why would they still be making MORE of them?).

Also, have you tried using it that way? What angle do you position it at? The best for typing is not the most comfortable for viewing. Do you get a stand on a table, in your lap? Do you one-hand it? It is NOT a production tool. It is a presentation tool at most. All the pretty pictures you have shown just show me that you have watched the commercials (with the basic piano and "clicky" percussion in the background) and believe that this is the be-all end-all.

I KNOW it can run some of that software, but it is NOT a very good piece to be running all of it on.

Not when there are things like books and actual solid state devices that do the same things, but better (the Amp app is a toy. You still need actual amps and other attachments for it, and I am not exactly going to step on a $600 piece of electronics to get my "Wah" going!!! ;) ).

Am I completely panning it? No, but PLEASE refrain from saying this thing can do everything. Just because it can run a program does not mean it is the best device to do so on.

Teno
January 19th, 2011, 01:28 PM
But showing a touch screen typing pad/WP is NOT a productive instrument. have you tried doing touch typing on a touch screen?

Yes I've owned the iPhone since June 2007. I agree attempting to write a book on a virtual keyboard isn't the most efficient way to do it. The iPad does work with bluetooth keyboards. There are many different types offered.



Also, have you tried using it that way? What angle do you position it at? The best for typing is not the most comfortable for viewing. Do you get a stand on a table, in your lap? Do you one-hand it?

Various options available.


http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/keyboard_dock_20101116.jpg


http://www.twelvesouth.com/static/assets/products/productheaderimage/image/main_1_BookArc_for_iPad.jpg


http://www.zagg.com/images/accessories/zaggmate/ipad-zaggmate-10.jpg



It is NOT a production tool. It is a presentation tool at most.

Do you really feel that just because you declare this, makes it so? There is no way the iPad can be a productive tool just because Ninjahedge says it cannot be?


I KNOW it can run some of that software, but it is NOT a very good piece to be running all of it on.

It doesn't run some of that software, it runs ALL of that software. Even more, that software was created specifically to run on the iPad and its touchscreen interface.

Knowing that companies have limited time and limited resources and have to maximize their efforts into creating products that will do well in the market. You believe that developers who make productive apps for the iPad are wasting their time?


Not when there are things like books and actual solid state devices that do the same things...but better

Funny enough netbooks are more akin to what you are describing. They are tiny underpowered laptops running applications made for larger screens and more capable machines. People liked them because they were small but in many ways the worst of both worlds. Since the introduction of the iPad the netbook market has bottomed out.

Netbook Sales Are Crashing! (http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/09/17/netbook-sales-are-crashing-quick-blame-the-ipad-not-the-lousy-netbooks/)


the Amp app is a toy. You still need actual amps and other attachments for it, and I am not exactly going to step on a $600 piece of electronics to get my "Wah" going!!! ;)

Have you ever used Amplitube on the iPad to see how well it works? Do you even play the electric guitar?

The problem Ninja is that you give yourself complete freedom to make sweeping declarations about things you either don't completely know or have no first hand experience with.


Am I completely panning it? No, but PLEASE refrain from saying this thing can do everything. Just because it can run a program does not mean it is the best device to do so on.

I don't make wide sweeping declarative statements.

I didn't say that the iPad can do everything. I didn't say that the iPad is the best device for the apps that it runs.

I simply showed what it is capable of doing.

Ninjahedge
January 19th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Teno, keep in mind, if you have to attach a half dozen things to something to make it work the way you want it to, it is no longer the device you purchased.

It is very difficult to validate the cross-platform (I mean usage, not OS) utilization of a device with the addition of proprietary pieces of hardware. You do not say that a laptop can hold 2TB of data....if you add an external drive, you also do not say that you can easily type on a pad if you buy the stand/KB (after showing the picture of the tablet w/o either as a part of your original argument).

Please stop getting so defensive. It seems like in your eyes, Apple can do no wrong. I don't think I have EVER seen you say one bad thing about them or one limitation. It makes it hard to hold a discourse with someone who is determined to say Apple can do everything short of surgery (with or without additional hardware)......

I am trying not to bash apple, but let you know what many besides myself see as shortcomings. How many of these are ignored or gotten around by manipulation of public perception rather than actually fixing it, and the inevitable price points that Apple seems to push with its flashy, stat deficient advertising.

They are not a bad company, they are a very good company. What they are NOT the best at is the technology itself. I admire them for the demographic social modeling they did to target the right markets for their products, but I also detest their seperationist and downright insulting campaigns aimed at pitting their marketplace against what is perceived in society as a pariah, technical literacy.

From the "I'm a Mac" ads that swamped the TV to the ones that outright insulted any user of the PC by saying that knowing about them was "uncool" (to say the least), they earned much of their popularity not only on a stable platform, but on peoples fears of being called names when carrying around a technologically advanced product.

Pitting people against each other has always worked in politics, it is no surprise it works in product placement as well.

There is a difference between the product lines available, but the mere fact that Apple is able to afford giant glass buildings in MidTown does not make me think think, for one second, that you get what you pay for.

That being said, many of the other contentions fall by the wayside.

Fabrizio
January 19th, 2011, 05:10 PM
^ "the mere fact that Apple is able to afford giant glass buildings in MidTown does not make me think think, for one second, that you get what you pay for."

And what about the companies that can afford giant glass skyscrapers in midtown? They too are cheating us somehow?


Apple’s Strong Holiday Season Lifts Revenue 70%

By MIGUEL HELFT
Published: January 18, 2011- NYTimes


SAN FRANCISCO — The holidays were really good to Apple.

Consumers around the world flocked into the company’s stores and other outlets to snap up iPhones and iPads at a dizzying rate. They also bought millions of laptops, especially the new ultralight MacBook Air. Even businesses, which have historically shunned Apple’s costly gadgets, embraced its products in larger numbers. As a result, Apple on Tuesday reported record sales and profits for the last three months of 2010 that far exceeded analysts’ bullish forecasts.

“Apple is already the envy of a lot of companies,” said Shaw Wu, an analyst with Kaufman Brothers. “Yet after they have reached such a high pinnacle, they seem to be able to distance themselves even further from the competition.” Apple’s strong results are likely to go a long way toward easing investors’ worries — at least for now — over the health of Steven P. Jobs, the company’s co-founder and chief executive. Mr. Jobs, a survivor of pancreatic cancer who received a liver transplant in early 2009, said Monday that he would take an indefinite medical leave.

“We had a phenomenal holiday quarter with record Mac, iPhone and iPad sales,” Mr. Jobs said in a news release. “We are firing on all cylinders and we’ve got some exciting things in the pipeline for this year.” In a conference call with top Apple executives, including Timothy D. Cook, the chief operating officer, who will be running the company during Mr. Jobs’s absence, analysts did not ask a single question about Mr. Jobs’s health.

Two analysts said they believed that Apple would not have answered them and that its executives would have been “irritated” by the questions. Apple said its net income in the last three months of 2010 rose 78 percent from a year earlier to a record $6 billion, or $6.43 a share, from $3.4 billion, or $3.67 a share, a year earlier. Revenue soared more than 70 percent to $26.74 billion, from $ 15.68 billion a year earlier. On average, Wall Street analysts forecast that Apple would report revenue of $24.5 billion in the last three months of the year and have net income of about $5.38 a share.

While much of the focus on Apple recently has been on the company’s mobile products, sales of Mac computers have once again far outpaced the overall market for PCs, growing 22 percent, to 4.1 million units. Sales of laptops were particularly strong, growing 37 percent from a year earlier. Sales of iPhones continued to defy expectations, as Apple sold 16.24 million units, 86 percent more than a year earlier. The company also sold 7.3 million iPads, 75 percent more than in the previous quarter. The iPad was not available for the 2009 holiday season.

Analysts said the results should give investors reason to think that the company could do well with or without Mr. Jobs.“He is an iconic leader, but this is not a one-man operation and hasn’t been one for a long time,” said Barry Jaruzelski, a partner at Booz & Company and the head of its innovation practice. “There are steady hands at the tiller.”

Even before Apple reported its quarterly results, investors appeared to take in stride the news of Mr. Jobs’s leave. Shares dropped more than 6 percent after the opening bell, but recovered to close at $340.65, down $7.83, or 2.2 percent, from the Friday close. The decline was far smaller than the 10 percent drop that analysts had predicted. Analysts said there was no accident in the timing of the release of news about Mr. Jobs on a federal holiday, when the markets were closed, and a day before it would report strong results. “The precision of the spoon feeding of the news to everyone was classic Apple,” said Gene Munster, an analyst with Piper Jaffray. During the conference call, Mr. Cook expressed confidence that Apple still had plenty of room to continue its torrid growth. He said that the company still had a relatively small share of the PC market and that the smartphone and tablet businesses were expanding quickly. “We feel very, very confident about the future of the company,” Mr. Cook said.

Apple said that the only factor preventing it from selling even more iPhones was its inability to make them more quickly. While the company has solved backlog issues with the iPad and reduced the backlog of iPhone orders, demand is still exceeding supply, a factor that may accelerate when Verizon Wireless begins carrying the iPhone next month. Mr. Cook said he felt good about the progress Apple had made in meeting iPhone demand and added: “It is not enough. We are working around the clock to build more.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/technology/19apple.html?hpw

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2011, 08:09 AM
Fab, to answer your question.

Yes.

But, trust me. The glass box, per SF, costs much more.

/me hands Fab some fresh straw.

Fabrizio
January 20th, 2011, 12:31 PM
^ "the mere fact that Apple is able to afford giant glass buildings in MidTown does not make me think think, for one second, that you get what you pay for."

And what about the companies that can afford giant glass skyscrapers in midtown? They too are cheating us somehow?


^ The above fits no definition of strawmaning. it is a perfectly legitimite question.

This is strawmanning:


No, but PLEASE refrain from saying this thing can do everything.

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2011, 01:27 PM
Every time I say that it is limited, he brings up advertisment pictures of the thing doing things like looking at (believably) live medical charts, typing, and being used as a pre-amp.

While that does not LITERALLY say everything, it is the intent of the ad to say it can do almost anything under the sun.

"Almost" dissapears when marketing a product.

The intended effect of the ad it to say it can do whatever your heart desires. And when used as a direct reference in a thread about it, it is subject to the same criticism.

Not a strawman by far, but an outright revealing of a direct marketing endeavor that few will deny... unless, of course, it somehow makes them look bad.


/me hands the fabman more straw.

Fabrizio
January 20th, 2011, 01:50 PM
You are doing it again:



While that does not LITERALLY say everything, it is the intent of the ad to say it can do almost anything under the sun.

It is simply showing what it can do. There is nothing out of the ordinary in describing what a product can do.

And again:



The intended effect of the ad it to say it can do whatever your heart desires.

What ever your heart desires? That is strawmanning. Reread what Teno is actually saying.

Teno
January 20th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Teno, keep in mind, if you have to attach a half dozen things to something to make it work the way you want it to, it is no longer the device you purchased.

So if I buy a better stereo and sportier wheels for my car then it is no longer the car I purchased?


It is very difficult to validate the cross-platform (I mean usage, not OS) utilization of a device with the addition of proprietary pieces of hardware.

Bluetooth keyboard isn't proprietary hardware, it works on anything that can support a bluetooth keyboard.


you also do not say that you can easily type on a pad if you buy the stand/KB

Why wouldn't it be easy, its a regular full sized keyboard.


Please stop getting so defensive. It seems like in your eyes, Apple can do no wrong. I don't think I have EVER seen you say one bad thing about them or one limitation. It makes it hard to hold a discourse with someone who is determined to say Apple can do everything short of surgery (with or without additional hardware)......

I never said Apple can do no wrong. Why is it required that I say something bad about Apple?

I have acknowledged that Apple has a particular business model. All business models have their pros and cons. I've admitted that everyone may not like Apple's products or the way they do business. That is why we have other choices.

Apple is very good at maximizing the effectiveness of their business model. That is reflected in the meteoric rise in their quarterly profits and their stock price.


I am trying not to bash apple, but let you know what many besides myself see as shortcomings. How many of these are ignored or gotten around by manipulation of public perception rather than actually fixing it, and the inevitable price points that Apple seems to push with its flashy, stat deficient advertising.

This is where we disagree. You somehow believe that Apple is able to circumvent the basic laws of capitalism. Something that no other company is able to do.

That Apple is able to provide inferior products and somehow magically mesmerize people into buying inferior products at overly inflated prices. Its not like Apple is selling jeans or sunglasses. Apple sells electronics that actually have to perform a function. There is no room in your reasoning that Apple just may be providing good products that people genuinely feel are worth the cost.

I cannot go along with that.


What they are NOT the best at is the technology itself. I admire them for the demographic social modeling they did to target the right markets for their products, but I also detest their seperationist and downright insulting campaigns aimed at pitting their marketplace against what is perceived in society as a pariah, technical literacy.

You are free to not like Apple's products. But I do want to point out that Microsoft has been creating tablet computers for 10 years and by any standard their efforts have been a failure. In 2010 Apple has changed the tablet market from a few hundred thousand tablet sold into 17 million tablets sold. In eight months Apple sold 15 million of the 17 million tablets sold in 2010. There is a reason for that.

What makes you think Apple is against technical literacy? Apple has created a thriving mobile application market place that did not previously exist. People who never thought of being software developers are creating apps for the iPhone. It has been a real shift in what is possible. I'm not saying Apple is perfect, but this is the reality of what has happened.


From the "I'm a Mac" ads that swamped the TV to the ones that outright insulted any user of the PC by saying that knowing about them was "uncool" (to say the least), they earned much of their popularity not only on a stable platform, but on peoples fears of being called names when carrying around a technologically advanced product.

Why are you taking those Mac/PC ads so personally?

Seeing as Windows still far outsells Mac OS X, I don't believe very many people have the fears you claim.


There is a difference between the product lines available, but the mere fact that Apple is able to afford giant glass buildings in MidTown does not make me think think, for one second, that you get what you pay for.

Actually the glass cube on 5th Avenue is the highest grossing retail store in NYC. You certainly are free to not buy any of Apple's products. I promise you no is forcing you to do so.

Teno
January 20th, 2011, 02:20 PM
What I posted are actual apps available on the iPad. Apple created the iPad and other companies created those apps.

The iPad can "do", whatever people create and use it for. You and Don Quixote can argue against reality.


Every time I say that it is limited, he brings up advertisment pictures of the thing doing things like looking at (believably) live medical charts, typing, and being used as a pre-amp. While that does not LITERALLY say everything, it is the intent of the ad to say it can do almost anything under the sun.

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Sure.


BTW Teno, when was the last time you posted something that was not about Apple? ;)

Teno
January 21st, 2011, 11:32 AM
And you say you don't throw out strawmen...........


Sure. BTW Teno, when was the last time you posted something that was not about Apple? ;)

Ninjahedge
January 21st, 2011, 11:49 AM
That was not a Strawman on the topic itself Teno.....


Seriously though, Share yourself on other threads too, otherwise you seem to be a bit of a..... Defender. :D

GordonGecko
January 26th, 2011, 09:50 AM
According to the New York Times, the iPhone 5 is coming out later this year and will be completely re-vamped. Whole new design, I'll be interested to see what they can come up with
http://www.nytimes.com/external/readwriteweb/2011/01/17/17readwriteweb-report-iphone-5-will-be-completely-redesign-90456.html?src=me&ref=technology

ZippyTheChimp
January 26th, 2011, 10:00 AM
GG: I've removed all posts by the person to whom you responded. A troll from Pakistan.

You may correct your grammar. :)

Ninjahedge
January 26th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I was kind of confused when I first read it... Very disjointed iPhone/Android..yadda yadda yadda....

Thanks Zip!

ZippyTheChimp
January 26th, 2011, 12:55 PM
He was here yesterday as "Brook," giving advice to IronMike on Brooklyn condos. :rolleyes:

Teno
January 26th, 2011, 06:58 PM
I would believe the redesign is primarily for the interior of the phone, notably the antenna design. I doubt they will completely redesign the exterior. The current iPhone feels really good in the hand. Every time Apple redesigns the exterior of one of these devices it forces all of the third party accessory makers to redesign their products. I believe that Apple will go with the current exterior design at least for one more generation.

I think the author over plays the significance of Jobs departure from day to day operations. Jobs isn't going into the office for day to day stuff, but I'd guarantee he's teleconferencing meetings from home, and still has his hands in everything.

Apple would have begun designing the chips and parts for the iPhone 5 at least 12 to 18 months ago. At this point the iPhone 5 should be well into its final design phase and about ready to go into final testing. For a June/July launch they will need to begin mass manufacturing around March/April. So the iPhone 5 should pretty much be locked down by this point. More than likely they are already focusing on the chips and parts for the iPhone 6.



According to the New York Times, the iPhone 5 is coming out later this year and will be completely re-vamped. Whole new design, I'll be interested to see what they can come up with
http://www.nytimes.com/external/readwriteweb/2011/01/17/17readwriteweb-report-iphone-5-will-be-completely-redesign-90456.html?src=me&ref=technology

Teno
January 26th, 2011, 07:07 PM
Market research group Canalys tracks and reports the quarterly sales of the PC industry.

Canalys believes that the iPad should be considered a general purpose PC. Because the iPad has the screen size and power of a netbook. The the iPad and netbooks compete for the same customers. Additionally the iPad has an ecosystem of over 60,000 apps.

With the addition of the iPad to PC sales that would make Apple the third largest PC manufacturer in the world with 241% growth year over year because of the iPad.

http://photos.appleinsider.com/canalys-110126.png

Canalys reports global PC market growth of 19% in Q4 2010 - Apple climbs to third place worldwide (http://www.canalys.com/pr/2011/r2011012.html)

Ninjahedge
January 28th, 2011, 08:50 AM
Teno, I think you are right on the antenna, but I also believe that if Apple could make the phone thinner, they would.

I don't know if they would want to make it lighter though. There is a strange psycological attraction to "heft" in a portable device. If a small device has a bit of weight, you get the feeling like there is some substance to it (it is not "flimsy").

So seeing these devices trying to get larger screens with smaller footprints, it will be interesting to see how they go.

The Galaxy tab has already gotten some good reviews from people who want apocket sized tablet that can be used one-handed, but is not necessarily an all in one device. (One reviewr said that he is looking forward to having it for his work, and getting a simple regular phone for...well...phone calls!).

Apple says that they will not look into that form factor, but I do not see why not. it is just the step right between phone and smaller pad, it would be like a whole line (iPhone, PocketPad, iPad small, iPad large). Thing is, since they do not have anythnig in that size yet, tehy do not think it would be wise saying that it would be a good idea when a compeditor is ready to present something there.

If Samsung gets a decent response, guarantee Apple will find a way to shoot for that niche as well. If they don't, then someone isn't doing their job.....

Teno
January 28th, 2011, 12:15 PM
Teno, I think you are right on the antenna, but I also believe that if Apple could make the phone thinner, they would.

The current iPhone 4 is already packed tight. With the battery taking up the majority of the space.

http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/B1btiixDEBv3R5AG.medium

The rumors are that the iPhone 5 will have a combo GSM/CDMA radio, dual CPU, dual GPU, more storage, and a larger battery. I doubt they can fit all of that in a thinner phone.


I don't know if they would want to make it lighter though. There is a strange psycological attraction to "heft" in a portable device. If a small device has a bit of weight, you get the feeling like there is some substance to it (it is not "flimsy").

Its also the fact that the iPhone is made of metal and glass instead of plastic. That gives it a solid feel. Also no moving removable parts. Battery doors makes phones feel creaky and flimsy.


The Galaxy tab has already gotten some good reviews from people who want apocket sized tablet that can be used one-handed, but is not necessarily an all in one device.

They try to sell the Galaxy Tab as a pocketable tablet. But it would not feel very comfortable in real life. You certainly could not sit down with it in your pocket.

As far as functionality, its just like the iPad. It can do whatever people create and use it for.


Apple says that they will not look into that form factor, but I do not see why not. it is just the step right between phone and smaller pad, it would be like a whole line (iPhone, PocketPad, iPad small, iPad large).

Well don't you think that Apple experiments with all types of form factors in their labs that we never get to see. Apple feels that a 7" tablet is awkward size. You are right that others will create all types of form factors some being smaller than the iPad others larger.

This is the same argument as the netbook. People complained that Apple was being too stubborn about not releasing a netbook. Apple said they don't see the point in a tiny underpowered laptop. Netbook sales are now bottoming out.

So far over three months the Galaxy Tab has sold 2 million units. We will have to see if it can sell 15 million in nine months like the iPad. As well as the soon to be released iPad 2.

Ninjahedge
January 28th, 2011, 04:09 PM
I looked. The only other problem with Netbook is that they like to cross them over with Laptops too much.

It is a very simple device and should not be concerned with 3D apps. All it needs is decent 2D presentation (for vids) and enough computing power to get it from website to website (and be able to handle your home network/server). They are trying to get it to do too much.

The pads/tabs are similar, but without the KB they have (and should) stick with the more touchy-feely things like books, tablet remotes, browsing and the like. There is much overlap, but one set is more attuned to actual interaction along the lines of text entry and the other is more of an exploratory device.

As for the Galaxy tab, the one thing that is being negledted is that not all pockets are in your pants. I had an AV player (the Archos AV500) that did not fit comfortably in my slacks pocket. It did, however, fit nicely into any jacket chest pocket, and that is what the one reviewer I read had to say about it. It fit nicely in his hand (like a portable notepad which have already been proven to be popular for ages) and in his Jacket pocket.

The major diadvantage being, no matter how good it may be, it came out second.

While that is an advantage in some areas (consoles possibly) the consumer desire for the "latest thing" in Apple has thinned out the available resources (and people) looking for something that would do this. I doubt there will be many that will want, or have the cash for, a large pad and a pocket tablet.....

Now, solidity? It does help to be one-piece, but the key here is continuity. There are ways of making objects you can dis-assemble have the necessary rigidity to have little flex. The metal is a good start, but Steel tends to be hard to work with (tarnish, conductivity) and stainless is the same weight but less strength (you make it too thin....)

Titanium is very light, but it is not that strong (you think it is, but that is only in relation to its relative weight).

Glass is good, and many use it, but I have seen more than a few cracked iPhones because of peoples less-than-careful treatment of an expensive piece of electronics (you would not treat a console system, blu ray player or other piece of hardware like that). Even with the protective casings they still demolish these things!

My comment about thinner was just a direction that they may eventually persue. You are right in that they probably do not have much lattitude with that, as they are trying to improve performance and battery life first, then size second. If that is what is most important, the battery space will dominate until they come up with a better battery (the general electronic community, not Apple...). If they can make a more efficient chip design, they may be able to shrink the needed battery space and reduce the overall size of the unit, but until then....

Still, the only shrinkage I can see would be thickness. People tried the micro-phones but they were just too tiny to use comfortably.....

Merry
February 8th, 2011, 03:51 AM
LOL :D. The perils of iPhone's text autocorrect feature. Will have to test some of these out.




http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/potatoes-caribbean.jpg





http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/phallic.jpg






http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/ovenware.jpg





http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/got-penis.jpg



http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/washed-clitoris.jpg




http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/taking-shits.jpg




http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/still-wet.jpg


http://damnyouautocorrect.com/

Ninjahedge
February 8th, 2011, 08:22 AM
I can't think of an autocorrect thinking lines like p.enis, cl**oris, sh*t or other words would be "common" ones unless the program looks at things the texter has written before and used them as a guide....


I wonder where these people have been surfing!!! :eek: