Tishman Hotel - 8th Avenue and 44th Street

[sfenn1117]

I'll hold off on making a separate thread since it's still uncertain...but this could end up being one of the largest of all these new hotels.

Tishmans Buy Plots Near New Times Tower—But What Will They Build?

by John Koblin (http://www.observer.com/node/36096) and Mark Wellborn (http://www.observer.com/node/36916) Published: July 26, 2007 Tags: Real Estate (http://www.observer.com/realestate), Hotels (http://www.observer.com/term/49937), Investment Sales (http://www.observer.com/term/49986), Times Square (http://www.observer.com/term/25344), Tishmans (http://www.observer.com/term/50424)


John and Dan Tishman appear to be making way for their second Manhattan hotel. Tishman Realty & Construction recently closed on five properties just west of Times Square for $128 million, according to city records. The hotel and construction magnate purchased the properties under the name West 44th Street Hotel LLC, a hint perhaps that yet another hotel will be developed in Manhattan.

A spokesman for Tishman Realty confirmed the sale, but demurred on confirming development plans. “A venture led by Tishman Realty affiliates has purchased a 30,000-square-foot parcel of land on the southwest corner of Eighth Avenue and West 44th Street in Manhattan,” the spokesman wrote in an email to The Observer.“We are currently exploring development options and will announce details in the future."

The properties, totaling approximately 146,000 square feet, were sold by The Witkoff Group and Harwood Properties. Calls to the sellers were not immediately returned.

One deed has a listed sale price of $116.5 million and the other is for $11.5 million. The properties that Tishman acquired include:

691 Eighth Avenue, 693 Eighth Avenue, 699 Eighth Avenue,306 West 44th Street, 309 West 43rd StreetExcept for the last address above, each property sits on the corner of 44th Street and Eighth Avenue, only blocks away from the new New York Times building, the new office tower from SJP dubbed 11 Times Square, and the proposed tower Vornado will put atop the Port Authority.

The New York Sun reported (http://www.nysun.com/article/38112) in 2006 that Steve Witkoff and Harwood were planning construction on a 250,000-square-foot residential condo with about 256 units at 693-699 Eighth Avenue and 307-321 West 43rd Street.

Tishman Realty & Construction, which has hotels in Chicago, Florida and the Caribbean, owns the Westin New York at Times Square. The father-and-son duo of John and Dan Tishman are not to be confused with that other Manhattan giant, Tishman Speyer. The Tishmans famously separated their businesses in the 1970's, with one—Tishman Realty—focusing on hotel development and construction and the other—Tishman Speyer—on buying Manhattan trophy office buildings.

http://www.observer.com/2007/tishmans-0

[londonlawyer]

I'll hold off on making a separate thread since it's still uncertain...but this could end up being one of the largest of all these new hotels.

Tishmans Buy Plots Near New Times Tower—But What Will They Build?

by John Koblin (http://www.observer.com/node/36096) and Mark Wellborn (http://www.observer.com/node/36916) Published: July 26, 2007 Tags: Real Estate (http://www.observer.com/realestate), Hotels (http://www.observer.com/term/49937), Investment Sales (http://www.observer.com/term/49986), Times Square (http://www.observer.com/term/25344), Tishmans (http://www.observer.com/term/50424)


John and Dan Tishman appear to be making way for their second Manhattan hotel. Tishman Realty & Construction recently closed on five properties just west of Times Square for $128 million, according to city records. The hotel and construction magnate purchased the properties under the name West 44th Street Hotel LLC, a hint perhaps that yet another hotel will be developed in Manhattan.

A spokesman for Tishman Realty confirmed the sale, but demurred on confirming development plans. “A venture led by Tishman Realty affiliates has purchased a 30,000-square-foot parcel of land on the southwest corner of Eighth Avenue and West 44th Street in Manhattan,” the spokesman wrote in an email to The Observer.“We are currently exploring development options and will announce details in the future."

The properties, totaling approximately 146,000 square feet, were sold by The Witkoff Group and Harwood Properties. Calls to the sellers were not immediately returned.

One deed has a listed sale price of $116.5 million and the other is for $11.5 million. The properties that Tishman acquired include:

691 Eighth Avenue, 693 Eighth Avenue, 699 Eighth Avenue,306 West 44th Street, 309 West 43rd StreetExcept for the last address above, each property sits on the corner of 44th Street and Eighth Avenue, only blocks away from the new New York Times building, the new office tower from SJP dubbed 11 Times Square, and the proposed tower Vornado will put atop the Port Authority.

The New York Sun reported (http://www.nysun.com/article/38112) in 2006 that Steve Witkoff and Harwood were planning construction on a 250,000-square-foot residential condo with about 256 units at 693-699 Eighth Avenue and 307-321 West 43rd Street.

Tishman Realty & Construction, which has hotels in Chicago, Florida and the Caribbean, owns the Westin New York at Times Square. The father-and-son duo of John and Dan Tishman are not to be confused with that other Manhattan giant, Tishman Speyer. The Tishmans famously separated their businesses in the 1970's, with one—Tishman Realty—focusing on hotel development and construction and the other—Tishman Speyer—on buying Manhattan trophy office buildings.

http://www.observer.com/2007/tishmans-0

I walked by this site on Jul. 26, 2007, and all of the subject buildings have signs stating that they are going out of business. Since the particular buildings are nice, I really hope that the replacement is impressive.

[Stern]

Curbed:

Group Rallies to Spare Seedy Eighth Avenue Theater
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, by Joey

The Times' City Room blog had a very touching—pun intended—look back on the Playpen theater (left, via Flickr/woody1969) near Times Square a few days ago, which went dark for good after 90+ years of foreign flicks and porn. Mostly porn. In fact, in its incarnation as the gay porn spot Adonis, it was shuttered in 1994 by the Department of Health for, uh, sauciness. Well, building owner Tishman will demolish the building, perhaps as soon as tomorrow, and in a city where you can't kick around a rock without pissing someone off, preservationists are trying to save the ol' porn hole. A group calling itself the Committee To Save The Playpen Theater sent out a press release calling for the Playpen to be spared, and there's some good history in there too.

The theater opened in 1916 as the Ideal Theatre, and was designed by architectural firm Eisendrath & Horwitz in the Beaux Arts style. It survived under a series of names, including the Squire Theatre, Cinecitta, Cameo, New Cameo, and Adonis, and staged Vaudeville acts, silent films, & foreign films in its early years, respectively. According to the Film Daily Yearbook of 1930, it seated 598 patrons. Rare & distinguishable façade attributes include ornate brasswork around the windows, a cameo depicting a woman unspooling a roll of film, a cornice interlocking with an arched pediment, a grand arch with medallions, triangular pediments, ornate pilasters, brickwork, and a marquee that has been renovated, but likely retains original materials underneath. The auditorium portrays goddesses in decorative plaster.

Preservationists consent 2 proposals:

1. The facade & interior spaces could be incorporated into the proposed high-rise, granting a distinctive presence which “merges the best of both worlds” (old world charm & modernism). This could be a great marketing strategy. The Hearst Tower, amongst others, serve as case studies.

2. Transport the theater to a new site, as Tishman accomplished for the AMC Empire Theatre on 42nd St in 1998. The Playpen Theater could be donated to a theater/cultural non-profit in exchange for a tax write-off. It would be sold to new owners, and the developers and the non-profit could benefit financially. (For example, Michael Perlman, Chair of Committee To Save The Moondance Diner, was responsible for salvaging the Moondance by working with Extell Development & donating it to the American Diner Museum. It is now in Wyoming gaining a new lease on life).

Tishman has yet to announce the plans for the site, but odds are it will be big and expensive. As for those "goddesses in decorative plaster" mentioned above, you can see them right here (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/20/73318458_c452eb49bf.jpg?v=0), accompanied by the amazing comment, "had to dodge the pimps and crack ho's to sneak this pic."

[Stern]

This was the most visible remnant of the old Times Square, I’m not a purveyor of this smut, but I’m going to miss the by-gone era this theater represented. In reality though the old atmosphere hasn't really existed for a good ten years now.

NYTIMES:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/06/nyregion/07dunlap_CA01.jpg

The Playpen, an Eighth Avenue pornography emporium, was built in 1916 as the Ideal Theater. And the quality of its original architecture still shows, if you look above the signs.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/06/nyregion/playpen_CA02.jpg

The Playpen two years ago, when it was still busy, as was the Funny Store on one side and a camera store on the other.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/06/nyregion/playpen_CA03.jpg

One of the original decorative cameos on the Playpen facade shows a young woman -- was there a muse called Cine? -- unspooling a roll of movie film.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/06/nyregion/playpen_CA04.jpg

Incongruity abounds on the Playpen facade, a mixture of neo-Classical and porno-Classical.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/06/nyregion/playpen_CA05.jpg

Until just a few weeks ago, the World Trade Center continued to glow at night on the Playpen facade.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/06/nyregion/playpen_CA06.jpg

Today, the twin towers -- and the theater itself -- have gone dark.

[kliq6]

Curbed:

Group Rallies to Spare Seedy Eighth Avenue Theater
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, by Joey

The Times' City Room blog had a very touching—pun intended—look back on the Playpen theater (left, via Flickr/woody1969) near Times Square a few days ago, which went dark for good after 90+ years of foreign flicks and porn. Mostly porn. In fact, in its incarnation as the gay porn spot Adonis, it was shuttered in 1994 by the Department of Health for, uh, sauciness. Well, building owner Tishman will demolish the building, perhaps as soon as tomorrow, and in a city where you can't kick around a rock without pissing someone off, preservationists are trying to save the ol' porn hole. A group calling itself the Committee To Save The Playpen Theater sent out a press release calling for the Playpen to be spared, and there's some good history in there too.

The theater opened in 1916 as the Ideal Theatre, and was designed by architectural firm Eisendrath & Horwitz in the Beaux Arts style. It survived under a series of names, including the Squire Theatre, Cinecitta, Cameo, New Cameo, and Adonis, and staged Vaudeville acts, silent films, & foreign films in its early years, respectively. According to the Film Daily Yearbook of 1930, it seated 598 patrons. Rare & distinguishable façade attributes include ornate brasswork around the windows, a cameo depicting a woman unspooling a roll of film, a cornice interlocking with an arched pediment, a grand arch with medallions, triangular pediments, ornate pilasters, brickwork, and a marquee that has been renovated, but likely retains original materials underneath. The auditorium portrays goddesses in decorative plaster.

Preservationists consent 2 proposals:

1. The facade & interior spaces could be incorporated into the proposed high-rise, granting a distinctive presence which “merges the best of both worlds” (old world charm & modernism). This could be a great marketing strategy. The Hearst Tower, amongst others, serve as case studies.

2. Transport the theater to a new site, as Tishman accomplished for the AMC Empire Theatre on 42nd St in 1998. The Playpen Theater could be donated to a theater/cultural non-profit in exchange for a tax write-off. It would be sold to new owners, and the developers and the non-profit could benefit financially. (For example, Michael Perlman, Chair of Committee To Save The Moondance Diner, was responsible for salvaging the Moondance by working with Extell Development & donating it to the American Diner Museum. It is now in Wyoming gaining a new lease on life).

Tishman has yet to announce the plans for the site, but odds are it will be big and expensive. As for those "goddesses in decorative plaster" mentioned above, you can see them right here (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/20/73318458_c452eb49bf.jpg?v=0), accompanied by the amazing comment, "had to dodge the pimps and crack ho's to sneak this pic."

With landmarks ebing so messed up, I bet they just might save this place

[Fabrizio]

About that article: It IRRITATES.. is so completely without culture to UNDERLINE this theatre's relatively recent past as a porn theatre with:

"....preservationists are trying to save the ol' porn hole"

That's NOT what preservationists are trying to preserve.

They are trying to preserve the former Ideal Theatre, built in 1916, designed by architectural firm Eisendrath & Horwitz in the Beaux Arts style.

Geeez.

[londonlawyer]

I've seen a confidential rendering of the hotel that will rise here, and it is lame!

[BrooklynRider]

I think they have their facts wrong. Tishman didn't move the AMC theater. I believe Bovis did that job.

It's all in the details.

[Peteynyc1]

In the spirit of the neighborhood, they should dedicate the first 3 floors to a super porn palace.

When you say lame rendering, just how lame are we talking here?

[Fabrizio]

Is the there ANY chance that he meant to say lamé ?

[lofter1]

...they should dedicate the first 3 floors to a super porn palace.

Family Oriented, of course :cool: .

[BrooklynRider]

Sure, they'll show incest movies.

[londonlawyer]

In the spirit of the neighborhood, they should dedicate the first 3 floors to a super porn palace.

When you say lame rendering, just how lame are we talking here?

Macklowe style (i.e., basically a glass box with a flat roof).

[lofter1]

Scaffolding was going up all around this site today, and the Playpen marquee & neon are GONE ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/8th%20Avenue/W44th8thSW_04a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/8th%20Avenue/W44th8thSW_04c.jpg

[Fabrizio]

That is a beautiful, beautiful block.

[londonlawyer]

That is a beautiful, beautiful block.

I agree. Also, an insider showed me a rendering of the hotel that will rise, and it is an ugly box.

[BrooklynRider]

That whole set of storefronts is EXACLTY what Tishman attempted to recreate in the design on the E-Walk complex on 42nd Street.

[BrooklynRider]

I've only seen massing studies. Looks to be 32 storoes or so on a large plot running fron the 8th Avenue frontage down a large portion of the north side of the block. Height is around 340-feet, 32 stories, most likely in the Starwood chain.

I do not think their is a design as much as there is a program at this point.

[londonlawyer]

I've only seen massing studies. Looks to be 32 storoes or so on a large plot running fron the 8th Avenue frontage down a large portion of the north side of the block. Height is around 340-feet, 32 stories, most likely in the Starwood chain.

I do not think their is a design as much as there is a program at this point.

I hope that you're correct. I saw a green glass box that looked like crap. I was surprised because Tishman hired Architectronica to design its other NY hotel.

[BrooklynRider]

And look at that. It is certainly a fairly reviled building here at WNY.

[londonlawyer]

And look at that. It is certainly a fairly reviled building here at WNY.

I like it.

[kliq6]

I hope that you're correct. I saw a green glass box that looked like crap. I was surprised because Tishman hired Architectronica to design its other NY hotel.

I actually just read a article that stated that the Westin was awarded the worst design in NY by the magz readers, ill get the publications name.

[antinimby]

Worst than the Gene Kaufman McSam's? I wouldn't put too much faith in those reader's ability to discern good architecture.

[BrooklynRider]

I actually just read a article that stated that the Westin was awarded the worst design in NY by the magz readers, ill get the publications name.

I know Time Out New York called it a "blight" last week.

[lofter1]

It's a whimsical bit of color with a dash of glitz that causes no harm whatsoever ...

Once we get the additional glass boxes which will line Eighth Avenue from 42nd Street north the Westin will be a welcome bit of pizzazzz.

[Derek2k3]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1162/1249702562_b6767fac00_b.jpg
snowdog101 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowdog101/)

[lofter1]

Now all under a shroud of protective black netting ^

[lofter1]

The Playpen came down this week ...

***

[ablarc]

Too bad.

[londonlawyer]

While this is sad, particularly in light of the Macklowe-Zuckermanesque POS that will rise here, I am elated that, as per today's article in the NYT, the horrible, 3 story, yellow brick POS on the west side of 8th between 44th and 45th will be razed. I would take a Macklowe/Zuckerman box over that filthy eyesore any day.

[antinimby]

Headless Building in Topless Bar? Tishman’s Wish for Former Porn Palace in West 40’s


http://www.observer.com/files/imagecache/article/files/Breaks-Playpen693Eighth1H.jpg
The Playpen Theater


by Eliot Brown | December 11, 2007 (http://www.observer.com/2007/headless-building-topless-bar-tishman-s-wish-former-porn-palace-west-40-s)

Construction king Daniel Tishman is seeking to put a 22-story hotel atop the site of the Playpen Theater, a former pornographic mainstay on Eighth Avenue.

According to applications for building permits filed in recent days, Tishman Asset Corporation, headed by Mr. Tishman, has plans for a 333,000-square-foot hotel and a smaller residential building for a large site on the northwest corner of 44th Street and Eighth Avenue.

Preservationists have rallied for the site, particularly the Playpen Theater at 693 Eighth Avenue. They’ve unsuccessfully fought in recent weeks and months to save the theater—or in the least to save its façade—from the Tishman wrecking ball.

“The theater had architectural, historical and cultural significance,” said preservationist Michael Perlman, citing its value as a relic of the vaudeville era (apparently it didn’t always show porn). “They chose not to acknowledge our sensitive and determined appeal.”

The assemblage of five lots, including the Playpen, was sold to Tishman by a venture that included the Witkoff Group back in July for $128 million, according to property records.

Tishman’s hotel plans join a growing list of new projects on Eighth Avenue in the 40’s. At 42nd Street, the block just north of The New York Times’ new tower, SJP Properties is constructing its 40-story 11 Times Square tower; and late last month, the Port Authority announced it had reached a deal with Ruben CompaniesandVornado Realty Trust to build a 42-story tower over the Port Authority Bus Terminal across Eighth Avenue from the Times tower.

Copyright ©, The New York Observer, L.P.

[ASchwarz]

The article is inaccurate. The building is taller than 22 floors, though I don't know how tall.

They just filed permits for the as-of-right zoning, not for the actual zoning once all bonuses and air rights are added. This is quite common.

[Derek2k3]

Thanks for that info, I was wondering.
The SOM tower at 250 West 55th did the same.

[lofter1]

Destructoporn: Playpen is Now a Hole, RIP

CURBED (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/12/12/destructoporn_playpen_is_now_a_hole_rip.php)
December 12, 2007

http://curbed.com/uploads/2007_12_PlaypenHole1.JPG

Condolences were missing from our earlier report on the Tishman hotel plan (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/12/12/in_playpens_ashes_hotel_will_rise.php) for the
site of the neon-bedecked Playpen porn palace. This tarted-up little gem, known
for many years as the venerable Ideal Theater (http://hellskitchennyc.blogspot.com/2007/09/ideal-to-be-demolished-by-tishman.html), is gone. No more curtain calls (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/10/12/destructoporn_playpens_final_curtain_call.php) here.
Forestalling any possibility of having this property Landmarked (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/09/12/group_rallies_to_spare_seedy_eighth_avenue_theater .php), a big nasty piece
of construction equipment has ripped it wide open from the rear, spewing brickage
this way and that.

http://curbed.com/uploads/2007_12_PlaypenHole2.JPG
Time Square looms over the demolition site.

From this hole a new hotel will rise. In the last couple of weeks, no fewer than
20 applications for this property (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByLocationServlet?requestid=5&allbin=1080872&allstrt=WEST+++44+STREET&allnumbhous=306) have been filed at the Department of Buildings. But
still no renderings showing what Tishman has in store. Until they display their plan,
we'll have to try and find some satisfaction in the raggedy hole they've left behind.

http://curbed.com/uploads/2007_12_PlaypenHole3.JPG
Where the balcony of the Playpen sat above Eighth Avenue.

http://curbed.com/uploads/2007_12_PlaypenHole4.JPG
The crumbling facade of the old Ideal Theater.

· In Playpen's Ashes, Hotel Will Rise (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/12/12/in_playpens_ashes_hotel_will_rise.php) [Curbed]
· "The Ideal" to Be Demolished by Tishman Realty (http://hellskitchennyc.blogspot.com/2007/09/ideal-to-be-demolished-by-tishman.html) [Postcards from Hell's Kitchen blog]
· Destructoporn: Playpen's Final Curtain Call (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/10/12/destructoporn_playpens_final_curtain_call.php) [Curbed]

***

[pianoman11686]

Good riddance.

[ablarc]

^ It was a theatre in the Theatre District.

[antinimby]

The article is inaccurate. The building is taller than 22 floors, though I don't know how tall.
They just filed permits for the as-of-right zoning, not for the actual zoning once all bonuses and air rights are added. This is quite common.Well, the permits while indicating that it is 22 floors, also shows that it'll be 308 feet so that equates to a 30 story tower. Are you saying it could go higher than that still?

By the way, it appears--according to the permits again--that there will be a smaller, second 7-story tower as well.

[lofter1]

The entire building site is shaped like a "T" with the longest span running 275' along W 44th (from the corner of 8th Avenue then west). The plot is 100' deep on that north portion. The narrow trunk of the "T" is # 307 W 43rd, which runs 25' along W. 43rd (the "alley" to the west of the Second Stage Theater building) and then 100' to mid-block where it meets up with the larger part of the site.

The main building site is designated as 306 W. 44th, but encompasses 306-320 W. 44th, 691-699 8th Avenue & 307 W 43rd

Department of Finance docs (http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2007072001245007) show that Tishman has obtained the air rights from the 5-story walk-up at #309 W. 43rd

DOF also shows that air rights were obtained for the 5-story #691 8th Avenue -- just to the south of the Playpen / Ideal Theater; subsequently a Demo Permit was issued for that building (it is now coming down).

DOF docs further show that there are Zoning Agreements from 2002 (http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2003013001838001) and 2005 (http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2005072800138006) in regards to this site.

In regard to the shorter portion of the building: City Planning zoning maps show that along 8th Avenue in the Clinton / Midtown Districts there are height restrictions on side streets which start at a point 150' west of 8th Avenue. Such restrictions would pertain to the western-most part of the Tishman site.

***

[londonlawyer]

I've seen the rendering for this POS. It's a green glass box.

Other than Hearst and NYT, 8th Ave. is becoming a mix of filthy, dilapidated, rent controlled, Soviet style buildings (like the Westerly) and cheap, mundane, Macklowesque boxes. It's sad.

[antinimby]

DOF also shows that air rights were obtained for the 5-story #691 8th Avenue -- just to the south of the Playpen / Ideal Theater; subsequently a Demo Permit was issued for that building (it is now coming down).What a shame this one will be demo'd. It was a handsome walkup that appeared to be in great condition.

It's the red 5-story walkup (with the American flag) to the right of the Playpen as seen here:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1162/1249702562_b6767fac00_b.jpg

[antinimby]

Other than Hearst and NYT, 8th Ave. is becoming a mix of filthy, dilapidated, rent controlled, Soviet style buildings (like the Westerly) and cheap, mundane, Macklowesque boxes. It's sad.That's pretty much true for most of the rest of the city, not just Eighth Ave.

There's no concern on what it actually looks like, just that it falls within the zoning requirements is all that matters in this city now.

[lofter1]

It really is nearing the time to look for a new place to roost :mad:

[londonlawyer]

That's pretty much true for most of the rest of the city, not just Eighth Ave.

There's no concern on what it actually looks like, just that it falls within the zoning requirements is all that matters in this city now.

I don't fully agree. Some great projects have been built in recent years (e.g., B of A, Heast, TW Center, Bear Stearns, 15 CPW). Some great ones are planned (e.g., MoMA, WTC, etc.)

We just need to get rid of schmucks like Macklowe, Zuckerman, Solow, Gershon Barnett, Tishman and Chang.

[antinimby]

Well obviously there will be exceptions (and thank god for that at least) but the vast majority are a disgrace.

And don't argue with me on that londonlawyer because you know it is true. ;)

[londonlawyer]

To date, Gershon Barnett has built garbage, but hopefully, he will redeem himself with the 57th Street parcels and with the Holl and Copacabana Towers.

[kliq6]

I don't fully agree. Some great projects have been built in recent years (e.g., B of A, Heast, TW Center, Bear Stearns, 15 CPW). Some great ones are planned (e.g., MoMA, WTC, etc.)

We just need to get rid of schmucks like Macklowe, Solow, Gershon Barnett, Tishman and Chang.


Tishman is really not a developer, they just do a few hotels from time to time. they are however the best builder in all of NY, hands down!

[londonlawyer]

Personally, I think that the Westin is fine, but the new hotel on 8th will be a lame box. What a pity.

[lofter1]

To avoid confusion (as was exhibited in yesterday's CURBED (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/12/12/in_playpens_ashes_hotel_will_rise.php) post regarding the 22-story Tishman hotel plan), there are two different Tishman entities:

This development is NOT Tishman Speyer (http://www.tishmanspeyer.com/properties/Municipality.aspx?id=14).

This one is Tishman father and son, aka Tishman Realty (http://www.tishman.com/tresco/about/index.html).

[pianoman11686]

We just need to get rid of schmucks like Macklowe, Solow, Gershon Barnett, Tishman and Chang.

With the exception of Chang, what have those developers built in recent years that qualifies as garbage?

[pianoman11686]

Tishman is really not a developer, they just do a few hotels from time to time. they are however the best builder in all of NY, hands down!

This is somewhat off-topic, but...I heard a while ago that Tishman might be getting acquired by Citigroup. Any truth to this, kliq?

[londonlawyer]

With the exception of Chang, what have those developers built in recent years that qualifies as garbage?

510 Madison (Macklowe), the proposed box for the Drake site (which, fortunately, is on hold) (Macklowe), the cheap box at 55th and 8th (Zuckerman), the cheap, boxy Diamond Tower (Gershon Barnett), the Con Ed garbage (Solow). Also, cheapo Solow hopes to raze a magnificent, neoclassical building just west of the Crown Building.

[pianoman11686]

First of all, Solow builds very few buildings, and when he does, they are very high quality. You can't possibly blame him for the boondoggle that is the ConEd site and the neighborhood's proposed height limits.

Macklowe and Boston Properties have put up hardly any new buildings in the past ten years. They're much better known as landlords, not developers. Although yes, the Drake's demolition was a tragedy.

With the exception of Chang and Extell, none of these developers puts up very many buildings in the first place. When they do, they're usually OK.

Extell consistently puts up above-average residential buildings, and we know they have ties with several well-regarded architects.

[londonlawyer]

The height restrictions on the Con Ed property don't mandate cheap, boxy designs. Most of the great new buildings in London (e.g., Swiss Re, Leadenhall St., Willis, the new Jumereh Hotel, etc.) are between 400 and 700 feet tall, and yet, their designs are magnificent. Solow is just cheap, like Macklowe, Zuckerman, etc.

[Derek2k3]

I don't think the renderings that have been released are designs of the towers. I expect something just as blah though.

[kliq6]

This is somewhat off-topic, but...I heard a while ago that Tishman might be getting acquired by Citigroup. Any truth to this, kliq?

Which one? I doubt citi with its troubles would want to buy a construction management firm like Tishman Realty or ahave any interst in becoming a landlord like Tishman Spyer

[BrooklynRider]

The Tishman hotel site has now been expanded to a 600 room hotel. Look for something more upscale than their Westin at 43rd Street.

[londonlawyer]

Have you seen renderings? I saw a rendering of a lame, green glass box.

[pianoman11686]

Which one? I doubt citi with its troubles would want to buy a construction management firm like Tishman Realty or ahave any interst in becoming a landlord like Tishman Spyer

Tishman Speyer, as an addition to their Alternative Investments group. But I heard this a few months ago, so it may no longer be in play.

[Lesstalkmoreaction]

Are they going to start blasting for the support beams anytime soon at this site? I live in the area, and I've heard rumors that they are having legal trouble.

If anyone knows and could tell me, I would be able to inform a lot of people in my area who are very interested.

[lofter1]

You might get better info if you call your city council member's office and make some noise. Or call your community board and start asking around.

[Lesstalkmoreaction]

That's not a bad idea, however, just one day later they...started digging. Although I suspect that their legal woes are not over just yet.

[BrooklynRider]

Making statements about "legal woes" is a serious accusation. What do have to support this allegation?

Tishman is a pretty solid company and has extensive experience in Hotel development and construction. In addition, it has completed numerous projects within a five block radius of this site and they are probably the premier company to managed excavations and foundations over existing subway lines.

Additionally, the Hotel will likely be developed by their Hotel division. This is one of the most successful and profitable independent Hotel companies in the nation.

Post the proof.

[Lesstalkmoreaction]

The support I have is directly from the foreman of the site. My office is adjacent to the site, so the development of the property is of great interest as it will affect me directly in my day to day life.

Originally I was told was that 2econd Stage Theatre, which is on the corner of 43rd and 8th Avenue, was attempting to block the demolition of their current residence. Their plan was to make it a historic landmark, but these plans have not been completed and Tishman was waiting until this board had made a ruling on it. Tishman revamped their plans, and has decided to use the alley behind it as a an entrance. (which lofter1 confirmed in his 12/13/07 post)

The legal woes I was talking about was with their demo company. The had used Waldorf Demo to take the parking garage down, but due to a lawsuit (of which the issue was not disclosed to me) they have switched to Savetta and Sons who have been doing the digging and the blasting into the bedrock.

Thank you for telling me that the hotel would be built by the hotel division. I thought it would be built by Tishman's Human Resource team, or their accounting department...that clarification was quite necessary.

In other news, do you believe they will take down Smith's Bar across the street on 44th to make way for something...classier? Or is that bar too legendary to the area?

[alonzo-ny]

Thank you for telling me that the hotel would be built by the hotel division. I thought it would be built by Tishman's Human Resource team, or their accounting department...that clarification was quite necessary.



That comment is completely uncalled for.

[lofter1]

Re: Smith's Bar

While no proposal for a development on the block encompasing the west side of Eighth between 44th / 45th has been presented the site is ripe for devlopment. I doubt that any of the existing buildings have any Landmarking potential. Perhaps the neon, the steam tables and other fixtures found at Smith's Bar deserve protections, but I'd guess that mightier forces will easily condemn the current building(s) to rubble before too long. If we'd not seen an economic downturn that demolition could have happened some time this year.

[lofter1]

The legal woes I was talking about was with their demo company. The had used Waldorf Demo to take the parking garage down, but due to a lawsuit (of which the issue was not disclosed to me) they have switched to Savetta and Sons ...

For what it's worth, DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=2&passjobnumber=104709969&passdocnumber=01) shows that the Demo company working at 693-697 Eighth Avenue is RITE-WAY INTERNATIONAL REMOVAL. They signed-off on completion of Demo at 3.11.08. Per DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=17&passjobnumber=104711509&passdocnumber=01) that same Demo company took down structures on the combined lots (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/PropertyProfileOverviewServlet?bin=1080872&requestid=15&restore=1) at 306-320 W 44 / 307 W 43; sign off took place on 3.07.08 (that batch of lots seems to extend as far west as 326 W 44).

At the portion of the site along Eighth Avenue DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=9&passjobnumber=104933930&passdocnumber=01) shows that the Demo company at 691 Eighth is WALDORF Exteriors; they also signed off on 3.11.08. DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=15&passjobnumber=104933878&passdocnumber=01) also shows Waldorf Exteriors also took down the corner building at 699 Eighth (aka 300-304 W 44), having conmpleted / signed off on that job on 3.11.08.

On a different front, both DOB records (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=5&passjobnumber=105164599&passdocnumber=01) and signs at the site seen in photos taken today (attached) show that Waldorf Demolition is the company currently taking down 99 Church, just to the west of and abutting the Woolworth Building.

Not certain if Waldorf Exteriors is the same company as Waldorf Demolition. :confused:

However all those DOB records cited above show that the two Waldorfs happen to share the same New Jersey building address, and both of these Waldorf job sites are overseen by persons with very similar names.

:cool:

[Skylimitone]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2295/2497527091_9bfc796054_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/2497526995_aedff18b70_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2056/2497526663_313c095a75_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2497526559_ff21c647da_m.jpg

[antinimby]

Permits still say 22 floors.

[alonzo-ny]

Ive seen a massing diagram for this building, boring box.

[TE29]

Anyone have any more information about this hotel? Someone mentioned they suspected it would be a Starwood hotel, is there any truth to that? I know people previously talked about renderings, any chance those can be posted (if they're not confidential anymore)? What about recent pictures of the site?

[lofter1]

Not much new to see at the site. They're just digging.

[BrooklynRider]

As Lofter said, not much to see...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/DSCN1614.jpg

[chris]

That is a beautiful, beautiful block.


Hmm... I'd say, one nice building on an otherwise less than noteworthy block.

[chris]

It's a whimsical bit of color with a dash of glitz that causes no harm whatsoever ...

Once we get the additional glass boxes which will line Eighth Avenue from 42nd Street north the Westin will be a welcome bit of pizzazzz.



That's frightening to contemplate.

[lofter1]

No need to contemplate -- for what's in store take a walk along Sixth Avenue above 23rd Street.

[ablarc]

Tishman is a pretty solid company and has extensive experience in Hotel development and construction. In addition, it has completed numerous projects within a five block radius of this site and they are probably the premier company to managed excavations and foundations over existing subway lines.

A large piece of a 4-by-8-foot panel of glass had fallen from a window on the 27th floor, hit an elevated sidewalk bridge below and smashed into his van. Shards of the 300-pound quarter-inch-thick panel sprayed as far as 100 feet away.

The city’s Department of Buildings issued a citation for failing to safeguard the public and property to Tishman Construction Corporation, which is managing the renovation project. The city also issued a stop-work order on the window-removal part of the project until Tishman revises its procedures.

The Buildings Department has recorded a half-dozen occasions of debris falling from the building in the past two years. In November, for instance, a wrench hit the roof of a van, and the department issued a partial stop-work order.
Nobody's perfect, eh? ;)

[BrooklynRider]

They were also the CM on 4 Times Square, where the elevator scaffolding collapsed back in 2000. I didn't say they were perfect. I said they were solid. Huge building projects get citations. The good firms remediate the problems and get back to work. It's the firms that ignore the violations that are dangerous.

[infoshare]

I got a call about this accident (http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080616/MICRO030401/80616008/1630) last friday: a few hours after it happened. This is someone I knew personally: so I wanted some time to pass before posting to other members of the wiredny community.

I think it best to put the news here - rather than start a thread - to avoid going into any extended discussions on the matter.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080616/MICRO030401/80616008/1630

[antinimby]

Theaters See a Lifeline Above as Developers Pursue Midtown Opportunities



By PATRICK McGEEHAN
Published: July 6, 2008 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/nyregion/06air.html)

A once-disreputable corner of Manhattan’s theater district may soon be home to an odd couple of new buildings: a 610-room luxury hotel beside a lower-income apartment house with two floors of studio space for small theater troupes.

The smaller building is part of the price the developer, Tishman Realty, would have to pay to build the adjacent 34-story hotel at the southwest corner of 44th Street and Eighth Avenue. Another part of the price is the cost of some of the air space above the Majestic Theater, a landmark Broadway playhouse diagonally across Eighth Avenue on 44th Street.

The zoning at the site when Tishman bought it would have allowed for a hotel no taller than 28 stories, a Tishman spokesman said. But the company struck a deal to expand the size of the hotel by as much as 48,000 square feet — about six floors — by buying some of the unused development rights from the Majestic.

The spokesman, Richard Kielar, said the hotel would be run by a “four-and-a-half-star international” operator, but he declined to identify the company.

But if Tishman completes its purchase of those air rights, so called because they represent development space above the theaters, it must somehow enhance the theater community, according to the zoning law. And because of the tumultuous past of a hotel that once occupied the site, it is also required to provide low- and moderate-income housing.

To satisfy those demands, Tishman has proposed constructing a low-rise building adjacent to the hotel that would contain the mix of housing and studio space for performing artists, both of which would rent at a discount.

The complex proposal, which was approved by the land use committee of Community Board 5 on Wednesday night, illustrates just how quickly the stretch of Eighth Avenue near Times Square could go from seedy to stylish.

“It’s a nifty little project — or a nifty big project, depending on how you look at it,” said Anna Levin, who is chairwoman of the land use committee of Community Board 4 in Clinton-Hell’s Kitchen, which will also review the plan.

The southwest corner of Eighth Avenue and 44th Street is a vacant lot. It was formerly home to the Globe Hotel, a flophouse that was a notorious haven of drug sellers and prostitutes, Ms. Levin said. As the neighborhood’s fortunes began to improve in the late 1980s, the Globe’s tenants were subjected to harassment aimed at driving them out, according to a ruling by the city’s Department of Housing Preservation and Development.

Under the rules that govern development in the Clinton neighborhood west of Eighth Avenue, any future developer of the Globe Hotel site must provide low- to moderate-income housing to make up for that past harassment, Ms. Levin said. So Tishman agreed to build nine affordable apartments next to the hotel. But that was only one of the community obligations Tishman would have to meet.

In the past two years, Broadway theater operators have begun taking advantage of the zoning law that allows them to sell their unused air rights. That provision was drawn up in the 1990s, when Broadway was in a slump and theater advocates feared that serious drama might disappear from the city’s big stages.

The Tishman proposal is one of two pending sales by the Shubert Organization, which owns 18 theaters in Midtown.

The other involves another proposed hotel near Times Square, at 120 West 41st Street just west of Bryant Park. In that case, the developer has proposed buying 9,480 square feet from the Broadhurst Theater, a neighbor of the Majestic on 44th Street. Both of those properties are within the boundaries of Community Board 4, which has not yet voted on the proposal.

The Tishman proposal, which spans two community districts, has to be reviewed by Community Boards 4 and 5. They will vote whether to recommend the plans to the City Planning Commission, which can approve or reject them.

The commission has already approved transfers of air rights from four theaters to three development sites, but the area’s theaters still have about 1.5 million square feet of air rights to sell.

Each sale is supposed to provide benefits to the theater district in two ways: the developers have to pay a tax on their air rights purchases and they have to demonstrate that their buildings will enhance the theater community. The tax, $14.91 per square foot, goes into a fund overseen by a panel known as the Theater Subdistrict Council.

The two pending proposals would add about $860,000 to the fund, which has about $5 million and has not begun spending any money. The council plans to begin soliciting ideas this summer for how to use the money to build or maintain interest in the theater arts. It expects to hand out about $1 million this year in increments as small as $25,000.

When the first air-rights transactions were proposed two years ago, the Bloomberg administration had intended to give much of the special tax collected to a program to improve auditoriums in the city’s public schools. That idea was endorsed by Gerald Schoenfeld, the chairman of Shubert. But some members of the theater community complained that doing so would violate the original intent of the arrangement when it was devised in 1998: to maintain interest in drama on Broadway.

Scott M. Stringer, the Manhattan borough president, said that the fund might eventually be big enough to satisfy several factions.

“The money’s starting to add up,” Mr. Stringer said. “We are going to encourage the various cultural groups and arts groups to make proposals to us.”

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company

[daedalus702]

This is the way the city tries to make itself affordable -- by limiting the number of floors at this site to 28, and allowing 6 more floors in exchange for NINE affordable apartments? How low is the IQ here? They have to build a luxury hotel to make it worth it since they can't build all that high, and then 9 apartments, which, in the scheme of things, might as well be zero.

[antinimby]

This city hates tall buildings. They only have tall buildings because they have to, not necessarily because they want to.