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Fabrizio
August 21st, 2008, 09:10 AM
I'm on vacation and not posting much but I see that Midtownguy is banned.

I ask: what good does it do to ban a long time member and such avid contributor? It hurts the forum more than some long forgotten phrase about "busted kneecaps".

He said that he would refrain from using the language in question. Couldn't the discussion be ended there? Does a moderator NEED to go on and on, taking an interesting thread off track and boring the forum's wide readership with their personal agenda?

Perhaps if Midtownguy had been gently nudged via a PM to bring his "colorful expression" in to line, all of this could have been avoided.... to the benefit of everyone.

Well, at least he wasn't "invited to apologize" and other such ridiculous nonsense.

In the meantime: consider me out of here until his ban is lifted.

( and my vacation is over :) )

Edward
August 21st, 2008, 11:28 AM
Deja vu all over again. We went over this so many times before. So let's reiterate some points.

> The forum is moderated, with moderation serving an important purpose.
> The forum Rules of Conduct must be followed. If any forum member feels that some of the rules are unreasonable, an open discussion could be held about what is best for the forum.
> The rules clearly state that in case of disagreement with a moderator, members have to contact me, and not get into an argument with a moderator.
> I usually assume that Forum Veterans are aware of forum policies listed in Forum Rules of Conduct.
> MidtownGuy clearly violated these policies, and I have banned him for 3 days.

Fabrizio
August 21st, 2008, 12:15 PM
The forum Rules of Conduct must be followed. If any forum member feels that some of the rules are unreasonable, an open discussion could be held about what is best for the forum.

IMHO all of the forum rules are perfectly reasonable.

What is not reasonable IMO, is the couple of moderators here that seem to purposely taunt and provoke forum members. They should not be moderating. They are game playing, power playing and IMO that is not best for the forum. My own proof of the power playing, is their using PMs to send nasty messages and that is completely out of line. (If you need to ban someone or give infractions then do so, explain why, but leave out the ulterior comments.)

My 2 cents: People read this forum mostly because of the activity of a few core, long term members, one of whom is Midtownguy.

New members who are truly interested in architecture and willing to put in the effort needed to make the form great (like brianac, zephyr) seem not very easy to find... so rather than banning long term members perhaps a PM (at least as a start) might be the best way to go. I think that would be best for the forum.


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Alonzo-ny
August 21st, 2008, 12:31 PM
I just read the thread that led to the banning. I would say Midtown spoke publicly in a way that he probably shouldn't but the fact is, IMO, that Kris should have notified MTG by PM of his gripes but instead he publicly continued his argument, something a moderator should not do. This could have been solved by a simple PM conversation but has led to an unnecessary banning. Also IMO the original gripe that led to the subsequent argument wasn't particularly offensive and hasn't been deleted so I fail to see why such stern words were warranted.

Ninjahedge
August 21st, 2008, 02:43 PM
Don't bring Stern into this!! ;)

j/k.

I saw some of the stuff there. MTG can step over around, on and even piss on the line at times, but I do not know if this was a bannable thing.

He was wrong, but Kris should have taken it immediately to PM. Hell, EITHER of them should have, but they were both looking for support and wanted to air to all of us what they were thinking. Why they were right.

I am not taking a side in that. We all do it. I am one of the worst when it comes to trying to prove myself not only right, but proper. Thing is, I am not validating it from either of them.

I think a simple 1 day ban should have been sufficient. Hell, if we can find a way to relabel a temproary ban as a "suspension" I think it would work better all the way around. It is a downright insult to be suspended for something like this in a community you feel a part of.

Some people know it is coming and still press on, insulting even those that warn them (Example: GT) but this was definitely much less heinous (Thus teh 3 days rather than the 7). I would still recommend that it stay in place, but only for a day, and that Kris be reminded of (his?) place in this as well.

I do not think (he?) was terrible in this, and I have not seen him around too many other parts so I cannot go on past record, but he could have probably been a bit more diplomatic. Nothnig TOO serious, but just something to keep in mind.

That being....typed, I think this is a closed issue. MTG is on "forced hiatus" and Fab man is on "elected recuperative leave". ;)

'nuff ....typed! :D

Fabrizio
August 21st, 2008, 03:45 PM
Re: Example: GT - There is a difference between a known troublemaker and a person like Midtown who has made over 3,300 posts... and is one of the reasons people come here to read.

I really don't know how much interest the public has in the fellow who banned him.

In the meantime, Midtown said he would refrain... so the issue should have been dropped. No one is interested in all the rest.

The active community on this forum is made up of very different personalities. Some will grate. That's life. (again: a trouble maker is something else entirely)

And anyway: seeing someone like Midtown banned, only means that readers will be digging through posts trying to find the offending phrase.... calling attention to it.

So I really don't see the point.

Take it to PM and leave the banning to more serious stuff.

---

BTW: although I did say I'm out of here until Midtown is back... I just posted in the Atlantic City thread.

Posting in the Atlantic City thread doesn't count.


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Ninjahedge
August 21st, 2008, 05:09 PM
You should have said "NJ doesn't count". ;)

ArTsYwRiTeR
August 21st, 2008, 05:19 PM
Where, pray tell, is that thread?

Fabrizio
August 21st, 2008, 05:27 PM
I urge you to stay away. It is mostly homeless people, drug dealers and prostitutes.

scumonkey
August 21st, 2008, 05:38 PM
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-008.gif

Kris
August 21st, 2008, 08:56 PM
Before addressing the main issue (how I dealt with the post), I’d like to clarify two things: First, I’m not the one that banned MidtownGuy; he had been banned before I replied to his last post. Second,


What is not reasonable IMO, is the couple of moderators here that seem to purposely taunt and provoke forum members. They should not be moderating. They are game playing, power playing and IMO that is not best for the forum. My own proof of the power playing, is their using PMs to send nasty messages and that is completely out of line. (If you need to ban someone or give infractions then do so, explain why, but leave out the ulterior comments.)
That’s a pretty serious accusation. Would you care to substantiate it? As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never sent you a single PM. If I’m not among those who’ve allegedly sent you “nasty messages”, why cite this “proof” here except to mislead?

Fabrizio
August 21st, 2008, 09:27 PM
In re-reading my post, it could give the impression that you were one of the moderators who has sent nasty PM's. You were not. And I apologize if any here were given that impression.

The nasty PM's came from 2 others and the subject of one of them was brought up by me in a long PM to the other moderators. And I am only bringing it up here as a further example of how I see a few here abusing their position as moderator.

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lofter1
August 21st, 2008, 09:56 PM
At the risk of looking like someone who is putting in a "last word" (although this is actually my "first word" in this thread) ...

There are lots of instances in various threads where folks from all angles seem to have a need to get in the last word, rather than letting things slide.

Sometimes it's best to not the raise the voice and, rather, just walk away.

(I know this to be true because while flipping channels last night I became riveted for a few minutes by The Supernanny -- and she was attempting to teach a beleaguered pair of parents exactly that ;) )

Kris
August 22nd, 2008, 11:37 PM
And I am only bringing it up here as a further example of how I see a few here abusing their position as moderator.
The problem, Fabrizio, is that you have no evidence of abuse of my position. My words with MidtownGuy cannot honestly be described as “game, power playing” (and certainly not, as you suggest, a personal dispute). I wasn’t provoking him in order to ban him, or whatever “personal agenda” you suspect me of having. As far as I remember, I had never before had an argument with him and I have nothing against him. In fact, the previous argument I recall having was with you. It did lead to your ban, but you were to blame for it. (That was quite a long time ago - your grudges die hard, don’t they?) You don’t have one serious instance, let alone a pattern.

After reading MG’s post, I did have a choice between posting or sending a PM. I chose the former because the latter would have forced me to delete the post (which otherwise would have been seen as OK), which I usually reserve for spam and considered too radical. It also had the advantage of making clear to others that such posts, which were likely to occur again in the heat of the presidential campaign, were inappropriate.

Moderation within a thread is routine. It shouldn’t be considered an indignity by the receiver (whether Junior, Veteran or even “core member”). The post I made may have been blunt, but it wasn’t rude or unclear. I didn’t at all expect MG’s reaction, which was very surprising and disconcerting to me. Then I probably should have taken it to PM, but the idea didn’t come to mind. I wouldn’t exaggerate the importance of this however; the posts weren’t that many and I didn’t notice any disruption of the thread.

Fabrizio
August 23rd, 2008, 06:52 AM
In fact, the previous argument I recall having was with you. It did lead to your ban, but you were to blame for it. (That was quite a long time ago - your grudges die hard, don’t they?) You don’t have one serious instance, let alone a pattern.

Why on earth must you bring this up?

For the record: I called you on what I described as a "snot nose comment" and was banned for it. And I still stand by my statement. (it should be noted too that in that same thread, another forum member mentioned: "Kris, your posts were insulting and inappropriate. Ban me too if you wish."

Kris look, as others here mentioned in a past thread, another forum member (Fabb... a very esteemed member btw) left the forum because of you. What more needs to be said?

Let's hope we don't lose more.

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Alonzo-ny
August 23rd, 2008, 07:30 AM
At worst MTG's response to the first moderating post should have been deleted and a warning PM sent. Publicly responding to that led to the ban.

Kris
August 23rd, 2008, 10:10 PM
It didn’t inevitably lead to the ban, which I neither expected nor wanted. But you’re right, it should have been dealt with that way.

Fabrizio, I notice you didn’t criticize my take on the event that prompted you to start this thread. Instead, you went straight to justifying yourself against that old ban, quoting a member voicing (but not arguing, for good reason) his or her support. I’m not going to bother with this now; I’ll just mention that at the time moderators couldn’t ban and had to ask Edward, who examined the case, to do it. I’ll also add that you were banned again not long afterward for calling me a name, unprovoked, in a conversation I wasn’t even taking part in.

Why bring it up? I think that at this point of the discussion it’s rather clear there was nothing in my behavior toward MidtownGuy that constituted an abuse of my position. I made a mistake, which I’ve admitted, but it wasn’t close to an abuse. To think so, you need a distorted view.

I don’t doubt your indignation about MG's ban, and it‘s understandable that you assumed I had done it. But you also see a golden opportunity. MG is a popular member, many must be unhappy about the situation. If you present things in such way that it appears I was picking on him, you might gather enough support against a moderator you still manifestly hold a grudge against. And why not confusingly throw in a gripe against two other moderators as well, and suggest the idea that the forum’s interest and value might be under threat? For the forum’s good, maybe a change of staff is needed. You’ve not been able to show what “personal agenda” I might have, but yours is rather transparent.

Who’s playing games?

In your profile, the list of infractions is one of the longest of all. None of them were given by me (but perhaps you’ll dismiss them as persecution from your other tormentors). Given the amount of time you spend here, it isn’t surprising that you want to make this place more comfortable for yourself.


Kris look, as others here mentioned in a past thread, another forum member (Fabb... a very esteemed member btw) left the forum because of you. What more needs to be said?What more needs to be said? Is this supposed to be your trump card? Do you know anything about this incident, which took place long before you came here? If you insist I'll tell the story, but this is truly a desperate attempt.

scumonkey
August 23rd, 2008, 10:53 PM
In for trouble or not.... i have to say this....
Wouldn't the above post have been better
served as a pm? :confused:
Why is there a need to keep airing out this laundry in public?
I thought the whole of it should have just quietly died after Lofter
stuck his gentle foot in with these words of wisdom:

There are lots of instances in various threads where folks from all angles seem to have a need to get in the last word, rather than letting things slide.

Sometimes it's best to not the raise the voice and, rather, just walk away.(or at least do it in a pm);)

Kris
August 24th, 2008, 12:26 AM
I've been publicly accused, I have to publicly defend myself. I didn't ask for any of this.

lofter1
August 24th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Is the folowing information available for all to see?




Fabrizio ...

In your profile, the list of infractions is one of the longest of all.


I checked Fabrizio's profile (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/member.php?u=4157) to verify but don't see anything showing a "list of infractions".

And I can't find anything of the sort on my profile (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/member.php?u=4502) (although I've been told that I've received infractions in the pat).

How can I see that infraction list?

Fabrizio
August 24th, 2008, 05:51 PM
I hate my profile. My scenes are always shot in 3/4 views, favouring my left side.

Kris
August 24th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Lofter, that list is visible only to moderators (and Edward, of course).

lofter1
August 24th, 2008, 06:08 PM
Oh, well ... then it hardly seems like fair play to make mention of a person's infraction status in the open forum.

Kris
August 25th, 2008, 05:25 AM
Look, I didn't divulge the content of that list and obviously only mentioned it because I think it's relevant to his motivation here.

Fabrizio
August 25th, 2008, 06:07 AM
Listen up: my "motivation" is summed up in my first 2 posts in this thread.

Fortunately my posting lead you to write that, yes, it should have been dealt with in a PM.

Mission accomplished.

Don't you think it would be best to now give this a rest?

--

Kris
August 25th, 2008, 07:13 AM
Yes, let's give it a rest.