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Ninjahedge
April 27th, 2009, 09:56 AM
Open question people.

Having a kid recently, it has come to my wifes attention the possibility of injury from some vaccines out on the market today.

While I have heard these stories too, I have not heard too much backing up the accusations (such as blaming the Mercury content in one of them, when I have read up on it and found that the mercury in it is in trace amounts and is not free mercury, but bound in another compound).

Has anyone heard anything about this to be worried? She has been attending fear mongering sessions asking people to write their congressmen (including handing out pre-addressed envelopes) and I want to know if there is any merit in the accusations.

I KNOW they are exaggerating things, but dismissing them out-of-hand will not convince her that what they are saying is wrong...... I would rather have the right information than just blanket denial...

lofter1
April 27th, 2009, 10:47 AM
No doubt the wife has seen a lot of this, but you might want to look HERE (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1888718,00.html) and, for assorted links, HERE (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22jenny+mccarthy%22+vaccines&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).

Ninjahedge
April 27th, 2009, 12:38 PM
She seems a bit ballistic in that interview.

While I agree that they should be researching this, wanting her child to get the "F___ing measles" rather than autism, when there is no direct proof that the vaccine causes the other, and that the measles CAN kill.... I doubt she is saying she would rather see her kid dead.

I also find it weird that people are so panicky about something like the swine flu, but thinks like Polio just do not matter as much. Since they think they are already protected, they do not feel they need to go any further with it and end up risking not only themslves, but quite a few others that feel the same. Having a large group of people contract something like Polio (or even the measles) is probably not the best for that community as a whole....


BTW, her mentioning that teachers are saying that they have never seen so much ADD, etc is a load. Just from what I remember from when I was growing up till now, we did not have nintendo dual screens in our pocket for constant play. We were not surfing the net or playing 360 on the big screen TV, we also read a lot more. Out nation is becoming very VERY short attension spanned, and blaming that on vaccines is a little off.


I guess my message here is simple. I ould like to see the news from someone NOT emotionally effected by this, not swearing at the reporters about all the "F___ing s__t" (to paraphrase it). to get the facts so that I get a better idea of whatthe real story is and not subject my child to risks from either course of action because of disinformation being shouted by either side.

A little information is always a dangerous thing.




(PS, thanks Loft! ;) )

dtolman
April 27th, 2009, 01:04 PM
I don't get the hand wringing about the vaccination-Autism risk. Autism is a systemic problem with a childs developing brain - the kind of developmental problems that probably started before birth. My wife has worked with a lot of autistic children - she says that you can start picking out signs before 6 months. Lack of eye contact with other people being one of the major early signs.

Besides all that, no one can make the leap from correlation to causation. Just because autism shows up around the same time as some major vaccines, doesn't mean it causes it. There just isn't any valid mechanism. Mercury? Its been phased out, no effect. Immune system overload? We all live through spring just fine - and all that pollen, mold, spores, etc produce way more immune response than a single shot.

I would be more worried about getting a bad reaction to the shot. I managed to get a mild case of the mumps from the MMR, and another shot (DPT?) made my leg numb for a week (cool at the time, kinda scary in retrospect).

That all said, I'd rather have a mild mumps, or a temporary reaction, than a real whooping cough. Or TB. Or the measles. Those diseases can kill or permanently injure you. Everyone forgets there was a time where no children got shots - and in the 19th century 1 out of 5 children didn't live to adulthood thanks to these diseases.

ZippyTheChimp
April 27th, 2009, 01:15 PM
I think what's going on is an uneasiness and overreaction to the number of vaccines that are now given to children, the general sense that we're all over-medicated. What's it up to now?

My kids got polio, MMR, and DPT shots. Maybe a fourth, not sure.

dtolman
April 27th, 2009, 01:20 PM
Thats it? My child is almost 2 - and she has been getting 2 shots a visit since she was a newborn. Many of those containing multiple payloads. When it comes to being immune to deadly diseases, I don't think you can get too much of a good thing.

ZippyTheChimp
April 27th, 2009, 01:24 PM
That was 20 years ago.

Ninjahedge
April 27th, 2009, 02:58 PM
You see, that is the problem we are facing. No direct causality and no provable link other than statistics I know can be manipulated top fit what you want them to say.

The problem is that for every site talking about how Vaccines are needed, there are ten screaming about the possibility of autism. Why? Bad news travels faster whether it is true or not.

Nobody wants to read about something you need to do and will cause no problems, so few write about it, but one rumor about mercury (in trace amounts in very few actual innoculations) and you have a bunch of panicked mothers collecting data on the 0.1% of the kids experiencing problems.

So it is easy to find things to support your fears, but hard to find ones to comfort you that are not automatically dismissed by the fear-makers because those sites are "official" or "government". If 10 people say you are lying, people will believe that more readily than you even if it is the truth.

Anyway, like I said, I think some may have some merit. I think giving too many all at once may provoke a more serious reaction, but at the same time I do not want to skip anything important OR give the kid the feeling that the Doctors hurts (one shot every visit).

And all you need is one rumor of all the kids at a recent whooping cough outbreak all had the vaccine and forget it, you have people saying that they shouldn't get that vaccine!!!!!


Help! :(

dtolman
April 27th, 2009, 03:29 PM
Its just another conspiracy theory... get the vaccinations, and feel good that your child is protected from all sorts of terrible childhood diseases.

And forget about overloading. Allergy season throws way more stuff at your immune system than any little shot.

Ninjahedge
April 27th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Thanks for teh support dtol, but I can't exactly tell my wife this "because dtolman said so" ;)

I need to dig up some good stuff, so if anyone has any links/clue I would appreciate it. Like I said, it is easy to find the fear, it is hard to find the boring (truth) to a lot of things on the net.

dtolman
April 27th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Well - the conspiracies are wide ranging, so its hard to hit all the points. But coincidentally, reading about woo is a hobby of mine (its the intellectual version of staring at car wrecks). Here are some good links:

A recent post debunking a Jim Carrey screed against vaccination (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/04/fire_marshall_bill_discusses_vaccines.php#more)

Why the "toxin in immunizations" meme is crap (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/11/cries_the_antivaccinationist_why_are_we.php)

A series on a med school students blog on the vaccination-autism link. This one is particularly good as the author always included full references (http://beyondtheshortcoat.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/hard-conversations-vaccines-and-autism-part-1/)

Slides from a presentation showing how the "vaccination overload" theory is crap. Slightly technical, but it has some great visuals, and being presentation slides, not that wordy. (http://www.iom.edu/Object.File/Master/7/434/Kollmann.pdf)

Ninjahedge
April 28th, 2009, 09:05 AM
Thanks. I will have to read through them before forwarding them on.....

Ninjahedge
April 28th, 2009, 01:34 PM
BTW, her mentioning that teachers are saying that they have never seen so much ADD, etc is a load. Just from what I remember from when I was growing up till now, we did not have nintendo dual screens in our pocket for constant play. We were not surfing the net or playing 360 on the big screen TV, we also read a lot more. Out nation is becoming very VERY short attension spanned, and blaming that on vaccines is a little off.

Hmm...



“All you have to do is find a schoolteacher or principal and ask them that question. They would say they’ve never seen so much ADHD, autism, OCD as in the past. I think we’re overdiagnosing it by maybe 1%.”

You’ll notice, she doesn’t give evidence, she offers an anecdote. Anecdotes are not real evidence, everyone has a story of a friend of a friend. Thats why we do evidence based medicine. After that she gives a completely unsubstantiated number saying we’re overdiagnosing by maybe “1%”. This is not science. This is not medicine. This is deception.

From your third link there Dtol.....

It is nice to hear the same thing coming from another mouth/mind.

Ninjahedge
April 28th, 2009, 02:30 PM
BTW, thanks again on that third one. LOTS of information on the postings after each blog-ette.

Some people really do not know what they are arguing when they post there and try to defend things with no real clinical proof (That we are getting HepB from Chinese blood? I am serious, someone said that!).

They do not seem to be as hysterical, and name calling is severley curtailed, so it is much more informative than most, where everyone would be called names and emotion would decide the "truthiness" of the situation.

dtolman
April 28th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Glad to be of help. For once my time-wasting on the web is actually useful for something... huzzah!

Ninjahedge
April 29th, 2009, 08:56 AM
Now I just have to get her to read it! ;)