View Full Version : Tianannmen - 20 Years Later

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 3rd, 2009, 05:44 PM
20 Years after the incident in Beijing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ)

What has changed?

What will change in the next 20 years.

What are your opinions?

Tell us all here, if you have the balls, because the Chinese intelligence is everywhere in NYC.

It would be Glorious! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=DTuDoM3-x8w&gl=US)

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 4th, 2009, 12:56 PM
I guess no one has the balls to make a comment.

That's dissapointing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP6AS03JYHw&feature=related)

June 4th, 2009, 01:36 PM
No balls, indeed. Some appear to assume that theirs are big enough for everyone.

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 4th, 2009, 02:01 PM
It was more of an invitation than a statement.

So Lofter, what are your thoughts about it?

June 4th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Tiananmen Square Is None of Your Business, Congress
Statement before the US House of Representatives, June 3, 2009
by Ron Paul (http://lewrockwell.com/paul/paul534.html)

I rise to oppose this unnecessary and counter-productive resolution regarding the 20th anniversary of the incident in China’s Tiananmen Square. In addition to my concerns over the content of this legislation, I strongly object to the manner in which it was brought to the floor for a vote. While the resolution was being debated on the House floor, I instructed my staff to obtain a copy so that I could read it before the vote. My staff was told by no less than four relevant bodies within the House of Representatives that the text was not available for review and would not be available for another 24 hours. It is unacceptable for Members of the House of Representatives to be asked to vote on legislation that is not available for them to read!

As to the substance of the resolution, I find it disturbing that the House is going out of its way to meddle in China’s domestic politics, which is none of our business, while ignoring the many pressing issues in our own country that definitely are our business.

This resolution “calls on the People’s Republic of China to invite full and independent investigations into the Tiananmen Square crackdown, assisted by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and the International Committee of the Red Cross…” Where do we get the authority for such a demand? I wonder how the US government would respond if China demanded that the United Nations conduct a full and independent investigation into the treatment of detainees at the US-operated Guantanamo facility?

The resolution “calls on the legal authorities of People’s Republic of China to review immediately the cases of those still imprisoned for participating in the 1989 protests for compliance with internationally recognized standards of fairness and due process in judicial proceedings.” In light of US government’s extraordinary renditions of possibly hundreds of individuals into numerous secret prisons abroad where they are held indefinitely without charge or trial, one wonders what the rest of the world makes of such US demands. It is hard to exercise credible moral authority in the world when our motto toward foreign governments seems to be “do as we say, not as we do.”

While we certainly do not condone government suppression of individual rights and liberties wherever they may occur, why are we not investigating these abuses closer to home and within our jurisdiction? It seems the House is not interested in investigating allegations that US government officials and employees approved and practiced torture against detainees. Where is the Congressional investigation of the US-operated “secret prisons” overseas? What about the administration’s assertion of the right to detain individuals indefinitely without trial? It may be easier to point out the abuses and shortcomings of governments overseas than to address government abuses here at home, but we have the constitutional obligation to exercise our oversight authority in such matters. I strongly believe that addressing these current issues would be a better use of our time than once again condemning China for an event that took place some 20 years ago.

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 5th, 2009, 03:42 AM
Ron Paul has a point.

From StrategyPage (http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/china/articles/20090604.aspx)

America Is Useful

June 4, 2009: China takes the long view, making plans that will take decades and generations to carry out. That's the tradition, which has been disrupted for the last two centuries by economic, political, military and diplomatic disasters. But now, despite an unpopular communist police state government, most Chinese see a future full of good possibilities. This, two decades after the government brutally put down the protests at Tiananmen Square. The mostly young protestors wanted democracy and honest government. Since then, China has gotten neither. The government only offered prosperity, and most Chinese accepted the offer. But China's planners know that the growing prosperity has created, as it always does, a larger class of educated, ambitious people who also control most of the economy. In the West, this led to democracy. This was so the educated classes could be placated, and assured that their interests were represented in the government. This is the direction China is moving, with things like allowing businessmen to join the Communist Party. This was unheard of two decades ago, when far more Chinese officials still believed in communism. Few do today. But they do believe in hanging on to their jobs. Communism was a disaster for China, but it's been great for the several million Communist Party officials who make their living running the country. This includes the hundreds of thousands of members who are military officers. Even though this groups is probably the most corrupt within the party, they also understand that the Chinese Communist Party could disappear tomorrow, and the nation would still need the military. So officers feel their jobs are safe, no matter what. This makes the civilian party members nervous, because, two decades ago, the party had to depend on the military to put down the Tiananmen Square protests. The police would not do it, nor could the party muster sufficient volunteers from among party members (some of the demonstrators were party members.)
As one of the founders of the of the Chinese Communist Party put it, "power comes out of the barrel of a gun". Thus the communist politicians also have to quietly plan their own exit from power. That's how things are done in China. Eventually, the world will be "surprised" when China is suddenly electing provincial and national leaders. These new leaders will respect the pensions and privileges of their predecessors, only jailing the most corrupt (and overly greedy) of them. That's the way it's done now, and that won't change overnight.
War with the U.S. is not an option, at least not as long as China is a major trading partner with America, and holds nearly $2 trillion in U.S. government debt (bonds). In addition to the trade, and hopes that the dollar will not have a meltdown and destroy a chunk of the value of that $2 trillion, there is much U.S. technology (civil and military) to steal. Overall, America is useful.
War with Taiwan is not an option either. As China allows more economic links between the two countries, they know that, eventually, the two will be one. Many Taiwanese know that as well, don't like it, and are scrambling, against heavy odds, to avoid the loss of independence.
May 16, 2009: In Papua New Guinea’s second-largest city, Lae, locals rioted and looted Chinese owned shops. There was also violence between local and Chinese workers at a new Chinese financed mining operation. As is often the case with "overseas Chinese", some of the locals resent the success of the foreigners. The Chinese usually have better business skills, and work harder, than the locals. Thus, for over a thousand years, these Chinese traders have settled down in any area they could reach (from east Africa to Indonesia.) Now, the overseas Chinese are everywhere, taking risks and building businesses in dangerous places. Most of these overseas Chinese marry only other Chinese, thus maintaining their ethnic identity, and ties with China. Although most of the overseas Chinese are anti-communist, the respond well to Chinese government requests for cooperation and information. It's good business and, communist or not, the government officials are dependable and useful.

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 5th, 2009, 03:53 AM
Whatever happened to tank man?

June 5th, 2009, 09:15 AM
Beijing citizens flee from gunfire as tanks approach on Changan Avenue from Tiananmen Square, China, on June 5, 1989.
Between two trees in the background stands the man in the white shirt who stopped the column of tanks in what became
the defining image of the student-led democracy protests.
(Courtesy Terril Yue Jones)

A newly published photo (http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/behind-the-scenes-a-new-angle-on-history/?hp) of the incident from street level shows the heroic man facing toward the tanks while others flee -- a pedestrian in a pedestrian environment asserting his dignity -- demanding accommodation.

Terril Jones (AP illustration)


Gregory Tenenbaum
June 5th, 2009, 09:40 AM
Where is he now?

June 5th, 2009, 02:58 PM
Nobody knows. He disappeared back into the streets, and after that...nothing or everything, depending on whom you talk to...

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 9th, 2009, 07:22 AM
No one knows what happened?

I thought that he was taken away by the police and shot.

It looks like there is an Umbrella Army now in China. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYSGAuO8FWk&feature=related) Thats so funny you couldnt make it up.

Be very afraid.

June 9th, 2009, 09:23 AM
PBS's Frontline devoted a whole episode - "The Tank Man" on the search for his fate a few years back. The website is still up, and you can watch it there, and read interviews with eyewitnesses - he melted back into the crowd, hustled off by some bystanders. After that - no one knows. His execution is just a rumour. His complete anonymity was his greatest asset. No good pictures of his face, and in the confusion no one could figure out who he was.

Gregory Tenenbaum
June 18th, 2009, 07:53 AM
Its wonderful just how interested WNYers are in this topic.