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View Full Version : Mai Lai Massacre: An American Disgrace



londonlawyer
August 26th, 2009, 03:39 PM
This morning, August 26, 2009, US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, was discussing this country's decision to rejoin the Council on Human Rights which we had abandoned because countries that violate human rights were members. What a crock. The US has a history of violating human rights. From supporting dictators in the Middle East and Latin America to denying our own citizens human rights because they're gay, etc.

When listening to this story, I thought about the following article regarding Mai Lai that was published in The New York Times last week.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/us/23mylai.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=calley&st=cse

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/22731/104907/f/695477-Mai-Lai-Massacre-0.jpg
http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/22731/104907/f/695477-Mai-Lai-Massacre-0.jpg

lofter1
August 27th, 2009, 12:18 AM
Is it a crock that under Bush we had withdrawn from the CoHR (http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=1269760)? Or a crock that under Obama we''re considering re-joining?

Or is the CoHR itself a crock?

lofter1
August 27th, 2009, 12:21 AM
And LL, haven't you yet noticed that 1 WTC is rising and that the footprints of The Twins have been built over?

londonlawyer
August 27th, 2009, 04:32 AM
Is it a crock that under Bush we had withdrawn from the CoHR (http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=1269760)? Or a crock that under Obama we''re considering re-joining?

Or is the CoHR itself a crock?

It's BS that we withdrew in the first place allegedly because we're better than the other entities that were members. The US falsely acts superior when we have a systematic record of rights abuses.

lineupguy
September 7th, 2009, 02:30 PM
Dear Londonlawyer

Are you saying that the college aged kids in Nam, who day in day out in the months before this happened were given the jobs of taking the severed genitals of their dead best buddies out of their mouths, getting shot at by an unseen enemy, finding women and children hiding caches of weapons and using them against them, wouldn't have gone crazy once the shooting started?

Everyone knows it was a massive screw-up.

The amazing thing about Mai Lai is that there were not even more of them, every day in Nam.

Next time you want to criticize on of the worst examples in that war, criticize the whole war effort.

So do you think that Uncle Ho was good for Nam? Do you think that it was right for others to intervene in Nam to stop this?

Equally, do you think that it was right for others to intervene in Korea to stop what happened there in 1950?

Thats the question JFK and LBJ had to ask themselves every day of that war, which by the way, was being won by 72 during Linebacker I and II. The NVA leadership wanted peace. They never got their objective until 75 when the US left.

Should we put our hands up in the future, just like Chamberlain did with Hitler in the Sudetenland?

The alternative to having boots on the ground would have been simply to nuke or level the North with strategic bombers just like Dresden.

It was far more expensive for the US and allies to have boots on the ground, but far more discriminating and fair on the civilian population. As a side effect, terrible screw ups like Mai Lai happened, but are still more palatable than the other options, ie nukes, strategic bombing of cities, or just doing plain old nothing.

Do you agree with this?

ZippyTheChimp
September 7th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Everyone knows it was a massive screw-up.It was a breakdown in military leadership.

It was a violation of the Geneva Convention IV

It was murder.

Nothing less.

lineupguy
September 8th, 2009, 05:07 PM
Everyone knows that too.

But the alternative? Carpet bombing Hanoi?

Jasonik
September 8th, 2009, 05:52 PM
It thought the only alternative was the dreaded "domino effect (http://cryptome.info/cia-domino/cia-domino.htm)."

lofter1
September 8th, 2009, 06:54 PM
The Viet Nam era Communist domino effect morphed into Neo-Capitalism, Chinese-style.

Much more effective for dealing with those one wants to gain control of.

lofter1
September 8th, 2009, 06:58 PM
But the alternative? Carpet bombing Hanoi?

The real smart alternative is to read up on history and get a grip about one's place on the planet. Then figure out how to deal with enemies, real and perceived, in a way that doesn't involve stupidly expensive and deadly military actions.

Clearly we still haven't learned that lesson or figured it out.

But why should we be smarter than those who came before? So much for evolution, eh?

lineupguy
September 10th, 2009, 02:53 PM
War is chaos.

Try to understand your "real" enemy's actual thoughts - it is impossible.

People have not changed. There are conquerors and the conquered.

What side do you want to be on?

Foreign policy is tough business. Ask a Vietnamese American what their view of the war is, many would have a view that surprises you.

OmegaNYC
September 10th, 2009, 03:19 PM
^^^ Geez, you sould like this guy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VHKpGJX29s) :cool:

ZippyTheChimp
September 10th, 2009, 03:43 PM
Everyone knows that too.By your defense of the incident, I would've guessed that you didn't.


But the alternative? Carpet bombing Hanoi?Assuming that you are regarding carpet-bombing Hanoi as a strategic initiative to advance the war effort, explain to me how the massacre of civilians is an alternate plan of action.

In reality, Mai Lai helped erode support for the war.


War is chaos.Chaos is what is now called collateral damage during a battle. Mai Lai was pre-meditated.


People have not changed. There are conquerors and the conquered.

What side do you want to be on?Most of us just wanted to come home.

You're getting yourself mired in defending a war, instead of attacking the premise of this thread.

lineupguy
September 10th, 2009, 03:58 PM
Well I am saying that war is hell, chaotic, and never a nice option, but often it happens (no comment on this one, the premise being, Calley's men were there - its what they did that was so offensive).

My response to Sir Londonlawyer is:

Boots on the ground = this thing can happen, Frail psychologies, inexperienced panicky men who were potentially being shot at by kids and women or other un uniformed cong or civilians hiding caches for the enemy days and weeks before this happened - thats a recipe for disaster.

The only alternative is to mount a bombing campaign like Linebacker, except also on the cities, not just the supply routes.

The latter would result in far higher civilian casualties.

ZippyTheChimp
September 10th, 2009, 04:15 PM
Well I am saying that war is hell, chaotic, and never a nice option, but often it happens (no comment on this one, the premise being, Calley's men were there - its what they did that was so offensive).The premise of the thread isn't about the justification of the massacre, but its relationship to another matter. Something I consider absurd. It was addressed in post #3


Boots on the ground = this thing can happen, Frail psychologies, inexperienced panicky men who were potentially being shot at by kids and women or other un uniformed cong or civilians hiding caches for the enemy days and weeks before this happened - thats a recipe for disaster.Do you have any experience with this? Vietnam was mostly boredom, or do you think there were firefights every day.


The only alternative is to mount a bombing campaign like Linebacker, except also on the cities, not just the supply routes. The latter would result in far higher civilian casualties.Again you speak of "the alternative," but haven't explained to me the either-or relationship.

You're justifying murder as policy to avoid what you consider the only alternative.