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MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 07:53 PM
Everyone modifies occasionally.

However, when we are having a discussion in real time it becomes irksome if a member continually goes back and modifies their posts after responses have been given and the conversation has moved forward.

I have noticed this with one member in particular, who likes to stoke arguments and then rewrite his side of the discussion after it has moved forward.

It's misleading and detracts from the cohesion and integrity of the conversation. Just submit a new post, with the new thoughts. No need to go back and labor over every post so as to position your argument more ideally after a response has been given. It's disingenuous.

We don't have the time to go back and re-read everything twice, to see what new changes have been made.

Post...and move on!
Andiamo!

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 08:23 PM
Recently observed in just ONE thread, all today, all by the same person while discussing the same thing:

#265: posted 11:44, modified at 11:57

#271: posted 4:35, modified at 4:42

#274 posted 5:02, modified 5:12

#278 posted 5:34, modified at 5:42

#282 posted 5:51, modified 5:58

#291, posted 7:25, modified at 7:45

# 295 posted 7:59, modified at 8:12 and again at 8:14

Several of these were actually modified 2 or 3 times! This kind of circular posting does not make a conversation, it makes a mess.

This is not necessarily something that needs moderator attention, but it should just be considered good forum etiquette to post AHEAD, not BACKWARDS.

Fabrizio
September 4th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Uh---ummmm....... if you are by any chance...refering to me: the time of the rewrite is posted. I will often post... immediately go back to add something... keep the page open and keep writting ( I am working while I'm here and and multi tasking). I can understand how this could be disturbing.

As far as:

"I have noticed this with one member in particular, who likes to stoke arguments and then rewrite his side of the discussion after it has moved forward."

The latest thread (Berlusconi) is there for all to judge on their own as to whom is honestly contributing and who is making trouble.

If you can point to any post that I rewrote that created confusion afterward because of the rewrite... please point it out.

In the meantime I will try to be more careful about this and organize my thoughts for the post before hand.

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Great. Thanks.

Now, as for this:

The latest thread (Berlusconi) is there for all to judge on their own as to whom is honestly contributing and who is making trouble.
It was I who started that thread, and yet you've been zealously making trouble on it, and guarding it like some kind of flying monkey.

Fabrizio
September 4th, 2009, 08:43 PM
I have no need to explain to others how they should judge the thread. The thread is there. The forum members are adults and will come to their own conclusions.

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 08:43 PM
If you can point to any post that I rewrote that created confusion afterward because of the rewrite... please point it out.

Again, this request smells more like some kind of challenge than a genuine request for more information... another way of posting that quickly becomes tiresome.

stache
September 4th, 2009, 08:49 PM
Anyone that spends that much time rewriting posts clearly has WAY too much time on their hands, and an otherwise uneventful 'life'.

Fabrizio
September 4th, 2009, 08:50 PM
Midtown pointed out a problem for him which I agreed "I can understand how this could be disturbing". I mentioned that I would be more careful about rewrites. I responded in an entirely civil way. Yet:



Again, this request smells more like some kind of challenge than a genuine request for more information... another way of posting that quickly becomes tiresome.



Anyone that spends that much time rewriting posts clearly has WAY too much time on their hands, and an otherwise uneventful 'life'.


Moderators?

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 09:04 PM
No, you have it wrong AGAIN. Jeez.

You did strike a conciliatory tone by admitting the rewriting could be disturbing (ding ding, you earned a point there) and I responded with a polite "Thanks",

But
THEN, you erased the progress with this:

The latest thread (Berlusconi) is there for all to judge on their own as to whom is honestly contributing and who is making trouble.

which wasn't so nice, and I responded to that in kind.
You will get served back everything you dish. How can you expect otherwise?

Stop calling for moderators and just start being a nicer person.
As my dad used to say, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.;)

Fabrizio
September 4th, 2009, 09:35 PM
Forum members and moderators follow the progression of this thread:

Midtown posts his problem.

I agree with him. I tell him that I will be more careful in the future. But in his request he also posted:

"I have noticed this with one member in particular, who likes to stoke arguments ...."

To that I simply responded:

"The latest thread (Berlusconi) is there for all to judge on their own as to whom is honestly contributing and who is making trouble"

Notice that I'm not accusing anyone. I'm letting others decide.

To that Midtown responds:

"It was I who started that thread, and yet you've been zealously making trouble on it, and guarding it like some kind of flying monkey."

To that I write:

"I have no need to explain to others how they should judge the thread. The thread is there. The forum members are adults and will come to their own conclusions."

Again: note I'm not being confrontational.

Then after I simply ask him to point out any rewrites that may have caused confusion... we get the following:

"Again, this request smells more like some kind of challenge than a genuine request for more information... another way of posting that quickly becomes tiresome."

Now, after all that, Midtown concludes telling me:

"Stop calling for moderators and just start being a nicer person.
As my dad used to say, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar"


Again folks: you be the judge.



I have noticed this with one member in particular, who likes to stoke arguments..."

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 09:36 PM
Was that useful for you, framing everything in the best possible light for yourself?
You might actually be surprised by how some of the "folks" judge the way you post.

When I said:

"Again, this request smells more like some kind of challenge than a genuine request for more information... another way of posting that quickly becomes tiresome."

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing whatsoever, except it being very true. Deal with it. You pose those disingenuous requests for "more information" all the time, usually closed with a sarcastic "Thanks." Yes, it is tiresome.

When I said:

"yet you've been zealously making trouble on it, and guarding it like some kind of flying monkey"

That was true...anyone who goes back and reads that thread in its fullness will see the accuracy in that very quickly. All those invitations for people to read the thread...I hope some of them do, so they can see how bizarre your conduct has been on that thread, and coincidentally, on the other thread that featured Italy unflatteringly.

When I said:

"Stop calling for moderators and just start being a nicer person.
As my dad used to say, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar"

There is no problem with that either. Just some honest advice you might find useful if you are humble enough to accept it.

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 09:43 PM
"The latest thread (Berlusconi) is there for all to judge on their own as to whom is honestly contributing and who is making trouble"

Notice that I'm not accusing anyone. I'm letting others decide.

Oh sure! By that logic, when I said "I have noticed this with one member in particular, who likes to stoke arguments..."

I didn't mean you!:rolleyes: LOL. Yeah right!:rolleyes: See, by your way of reasoning, there's no accusing being done by me either! Yay!:rolleyes:

We all know what you were getting at. Enough games. Cut the routine.

195Broadway
September 4th, 2009, 09:57 PM
Fab and Midtown, where do you two get all that stamina?

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 10:05 PM
:D lots of walnuts and oysters

195Broadway
September 4th, 2009, 10:44 PM
Oysters. I can do that!
Houston may not be the end-all, or the beginning of, but this place is lousy with oysters. Come December, I'll be gathering them up by the pillow case load from Galveston bay. Crack one open by mistake while gathering?...no problemo... eat it right there while you are standing in the bay.......
Yum!

MidtownGuy
September 4th, 2009, 10:47 PM
sounds good!

lofter1
September 4th, 2009, 10:51 PM
I see a new thread and am intrigued, so I check it out.

But this one is like a two-handed daisy chain with no money shot.

I'll be bypassing it in the future.

If y'all took this to PMs (without an audience) it would be over in 3 minutes.

nycla3
September 4th, 2009, 11:44 PM
If y'all took this to PMs (without an audience) it would be over in 3 minutes.

Now where's the entertainment in that? Until Curb or 30 Rock cranks up, I'm not switching channels quite yet...

Merry
September 5th, 2009, 01:48 AM
If y'all took this to PMs (without an audience) it would be over in 3 minutes.

Well said.

That's what should have happened, since it was so obvious from the start who the "one member in particular" is :rolleyes:.

It's boring, petty been-there-done-that-many-times-before. And if it's all just a game, even more so.

Neither of you is going to win ;).

"...disturbing..."
"...conciliatory..."

Nil all.

MidtownGuy
September 5th, 2009, 08:54 AM
It was suggested by a moderator that if we have an issue with the way someone is posting, rather than polluting another thread, a separate thread should be opened in Forum Issues.

The beauty of classifying discussions into threads and categories is that if you don't like a particular thread, for any reason, you simply don't ever have to open it up. Problem solved.

As far as everyone knowing who "that member" is, remember you are a regular here. There are thousands upon thousands of visitors to this forum every day that have no clue about the regular cast of characters here, and frankly don't care. The vast majority won't even be reading this thread...and if you look at "active members" you know that at any given time there are usually 10 or fewer members present.

There isn't lot of construction news happening. The exchanges between me and fabrizio may have annoyed some ( again, just go to another thread and read about whatever you like), but for others it was probably the most lively thing going on this forum yesterday.

Just ignore the threads you don't care for. I do it all the time. It's really easy.

stache
September 5th, 2009, 08:58 AM
^ Agree -

Ninjahedge
September 9th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Ignoring the why, I have to put my 2 in here on restrictions on editing.

If there was any way to either impliment, or just request from the guys at VB, a way to set a timer that would not remove your ability to edit after XX minutes, but possibly put a marker in the text as to what was edited (strikeout in red?) like a standard document revision.

This would preclude the need to quote a controvercial post in its entirety to "preserve" the points that the respondee took issue with.

Deletion of posts should also be limited to a certain time span, but able to be petitioned by PM'ing a mod in an effort to prevent further strife. One member here did just that to their own post to try to stem the tide of any further bad-blood, but we won't say who they were because that would ruin EVERYTHING!!!!!!


maybe.

lineupguy
September 11th, 2009, 01:58 PM
An admin (Alonzo) tried to delete my posts which were on topic and non aggressive. He then banned me. Twice. I think being able to amend the posts like that should be a no-go.

He is still trying to bully me (and others) from what I can tell with PM warnings about not expressing my opinion etc. I told him to get lost. But the fact that he is still throwing his weight around after banning me twice for talking about Megrahi and Scotland was just about enough.

So its bye for now. Not sure when Ill be back.

Take care everyone, it was nice knowing you.

stache
September 11th, 2009, 02:09 PM
An admin (Alonzo) tried to delete my posts which were on topic and non aggressive. He then banned me. Twice. I think being able to amend the posts like that should be a no-go.

He is still trying to bully me (and others) from what I can tell with PM warnings about not expressing my opinion etc. I told him to get lost. But the fact that he is still throwing his weight around after banning me twice for talking about Megrahi and Scotland was just about enough.

So its bye for now. Not sure when Ill be back.

Take care everyone, it was nice knowing you.

I'm quoting this for the record, unless this post gets deleted as well. I will also send it to a Mod. lineupguy, if you decide to come back you should forward instances like this directly to Edward. Alonzo is being watched very carefully by his peers.

195Broadway
September 11th, 2009, 03:13 PM
Much of this could be averted if the policy is "what you post stays" I have participated in a forum with this rule.... It really made me pause before hitting SUBMIT REPLY.

Ninjahedge
September 14th, 2009, 09:46 AM
It has never really been a problem here before.

It may have brought up instances here and there, but never really anything to get angry over.

This website is not one that is so large that there is little communication between mods and the sites owner, so...

If you want to see dictatorial modding, try www.city-data.com/forums (http://www.city-data.com/forums). I think one of us here has already done so.

When you go to a site where "piss" is considered a curse, you get guys that will delete w/o warning, lock threads in the same way, and give you infraction points (AND delete the post) if you question them.

Don't get me wrong, it has a bunch of good people there, but complaining about the mods here?

Waaaaa. :rolleyes:

Jasonik
September 17th, 2009, 10:37 PM
Simply making additive edits can solve much of the confusion/animus.

*edit*
Like this.

ablarc
September 18th, 2009, 06:36 PM
An admin (Alonzo) tried to delete my posts which were on topic and non aggressive. He then banned me.

Bad.


Twice. I think being able to amend the posts like that should be a no-go.
Agreed.


He is still trying to bully me (and others) from what I can tell with PM warnings about not expressing my opinion etc. I told him to get lost. But the fact that he is still throwing his weight around after banning me twice for talking about Megrahi and Scotland was just about enough.

So its bye for now. Not sure when Ill be back.

Is this true, Alonzo?

.

Alonzo-ny
September 19th, 2009, 05:42 AM
No, Ablarc, all his accusations were false. I did not delete any of his posts. I only edited one post to remove the quote of the post which immediately preceded it. As we all know this is forum policy. The rest of his post was left untouched.

In my PMs to lineupguy I simply advised him that he should refrain from insults and foul language. The accusations of anything else are a fabrication.

Since lineupguy first broke the rules I kept the moderators and Ed up to date on all my actions in the moderator forum.

ablarc
September 19th, 2009, 11:15 AM
All righty, then.

BrooklynRider
September 21st, 2009, 04:18 AM
Lineupguy's actions weren't quite as innocent as he presented to the forum community.

Fabrizio
September 27th, 2009, 06:06 PM
I'm quoting this for the record, unless this post gets deleted as well. I will also send it to a Mod. lineupguy, if you decide to come back you should forward instances like this directly to Edward. Alonzo is being watched very carefully by his peers.

And Stache is being watched very carefully by his nurses.

MidtownGuy
September 27th, 2009, 11:07 PM
^ Goody. Rebecca returns to Sunnybrook Farm to spread more sunshine.

Fabrizio
September 28th, 2009, 04:54 AM
Oh, the sunshine has been spread... I'm just basking in it.


I'm quoting this for the record, unless this post gets deleted as well. I will also send it to a Mod. lineupguy, if you decide to come back you should forward instances like this directly to Edward. Alonzo is being watched very carefully by his peers.

BrooklynRider
September 28th, 2009, 09:40 AM
Despite the fact that I find all of this downright funny, you boys are going to get separated if you can't be have.

Love-

Mom

meesalikeu
October 12th, 2009, 11:58 AM
interesting thread -- of course this issue comes up on all forums.

i like the forums that have the software that gives you a window of time to modify before it kicks into didactically noting every change. its sympathetic to us humans. not that i necessarily mind changes being noted, but sometimes you just push a button too quickly.

however, editing should not repeat not be abused during heavy traffic periods of real time running discussion. in those cases the changes are 100% absolutely not clear, whoever does it you're cheating and you know it (the royal you that is, no one in particular).

when you look back over running discussions on pages with lots of editing you dont even have to read them, you know they will have gotten silly and likely are a waste of time. :rolleyes:

MidtownGuy
October 12th, 2009, 06:35 PM
Very true.
Just now Fabrizio modified one post 4 times, after I had already responded:D It's like discussing something in a time warp, you have to keep going in circles....checking new posts and rechecking other recent ones too.:rolleyes:

MidtownGuy
October 12th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Last edited by Fabrizio; October 12th, 2009 at 06:46 PM. Reason: oh spelling or something.

He's still at it...plus we get sarcastic explanations as an added bonus to the whole compulsion.

The one about it "being a woman's prerogative" was a classic.

Fabrizio
October 12th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Midtown: please note that only 2 posts overlap yours. 1 for a minute and one for 5. I corrected for clarity as it seemed my post about Anita Dunn and preceeding posts seemed not to be clear to you. As I am working, I held the window open not even knowing if there had been a response in the meantime. I am working. I am in my office, not at home, I am writting quickly at times. There is a phone and other disractions. Unfortunately I can't always be concentrated while I'm posting and must go back, otherwise it's a mess. Posting separate posts, that is revising the above post, seems like a bad idea too. I do understand that it can be bothersome and should not happen but please know that the motive has been for clarity.

Fabrizio
October 12th, 2009, 07:54 PM
And this is going to sound unbelievable but: this forum is the only place that I express myself in English on a regular basis outside of the occasional phone call or email. So problems with sentence construction especially are always problematic for me and result in me rereading and going back for corrections.

kz1000ps
October 12th, 2009, 08:17 PM
FWIW, I'll edit posts for the 5 minutes up until the "last edited" thing appears because for whatever reason my brain finds errors more easily once I see how my words look in the final, posted format. It just ain't the same doing proofreading on the "reply to thread" page, where paragraph spacing and whatnot looks completely different.

Also, the petty and vindictive tone that is spoiling certain threads has gotta stop. Saying to me, "well you don't HAVE to read our bickering, you know" when I wish to learn some substance on those issues and instead get bogged down in retaliation BS doesn't cut it. It's friggin lame.

MidtownGuy
October 12th, 2009, 10:11 PM
...and how many threads would you say that is, kz? ONE thread? Yeah. Let's keep things in perspective, please.

MidtownGuy
October 12th, 2009, 10:13 PM
And this is going to sound unbelievable but: this forum is the only place that I express myself in English on a regular basis outside of the occasional phone call or email. So problems with sentence construction especially are always problematic for me and result in me rereading and going back for corrections.

This is completely fair and understandable. However, it seems that it's usually to add whole new sentences, which is a totally different thing.

Alonzo-ny
October 13th, 2009, 05:22 PM
FWIW, I'll edit posts for the 5 minutes up until the "last edited" thing appears because for whatever reason my brain finds errors more easily once I see how my words look in the final, posted format. It just ain't the same doing proofreading on the "reply to thread" page, where paragraph spacing and whatnot looks completely different.

Also, the petty and vindictive tone that is spoiling certain threads has gotta stop. Saying to me, "well you don't HAVE to read our bickering, you know" when I wish to learn some substance on those issues and instead get bogged down in retaliation BS doesn't cut it. It's friggin lame.

You can also click 'preview post' which is next to the 'submit reply' button. This shows you what your post will look like but without actually posting it.

BrooklynRider
October 14th, 2009, 01:32 AM
I think it might be beneficial if we simply set up a "YO MOMMA..." thread somewhere.

I envision it as a place where we can take our frustrations with a particular poster outside of a thread discussion. You go to the "YO MOMMA..." thread and just post with a prefix of @_____
__________________________________________________ _________

For Example:

@BrooklynRider

Yo mama's so fat she hoola-hooped the Super Bowl!

__________________________________________________ _________

Let's just make this the single thread where we can toss out the insults, which allows other threads to continue unscathed by rancor.

scumonkey
October 14th, 2009, 01:43 AM
I think it might be beneficial if we simply set up a "YO MOMMA..." thread somewhere.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/scumonkey/DSCN0089.jpg
(they wouldn't let me use the letter "O")

Ninjahedge
October 14th, 2009, 10:00 AM
Wasn't Rancor one of He-Man's enemies?


Bottom line, I think that it might be handy to give a set of scripts a chance here if this continues. This site and its posters have been VERY good compared to others I have been to in regards to keeping the gist of what they were saying on the board (with only a few exceptions).

The only solutions would be complicated or extremely limited (and which might inadvertently cause more enemies of He Man to appear). I have had my own instances in the past where, after posting a biting rejoinder to a previous poster (Probably from the now rarely seen Schade :() I have thought the better of it and deleted it 5/10 minutes later (hopefully before it was read or quoted).

The complicated solution would be one to try to eliminate late-dated edits. You have 5 minutes to change what you want w/o any marker. 30 minutes to change it w/o any specific editing marks. Anything after that would show the original in traditional proofread strikeout and the new text added in.

I do not know how this would be done, technically (it would probably involve scripts not native to the program itself), but it is one of the only ways to make it so that we are not robbed of our own gracious freedom to edit errors, misspellings, or the occasional rare drunken "oops" post that may grace us with its "enlightening" presence. ;)



Or we could all (myself included) not take things so damn personally all the time and realize this is just a god-damned bulletin board, not the floor of the Senate. If more people did the same, the internet would be a much friendlier place!! ;)

BrooklynRider
October 15th, 2009, 11:24 AM
...or just go stratight for the "Yom Momma" quip.

Ninjahedge
October 15th, 2009, 01:59 PM
...or just go stratight for the "Yom Momma" quip.

Whassamatta?

White boy got no slang?

lofter1
October 15th, 2009, 03:21 PM
... the "Yom Momma" quip.

I can never keep track of all those Jewish Holidays.

Ninjahedge
October 15th, 2009, 03:51 PM
I am still trying to go Stratight for it. :cool:

kz1000ps
October 16th, 2009, 10:21 PM
...and how many threads would you say that is, kz? ONE thread? Yeah. Let's keep things in perspective, please.

How about the EU immigration thread, or this one?


You can also click 'preview post' which is next to the 'submit reply' button. This shows you what your post will look like but without actually posting it.

I know about that function and use it often, but it just ain't the same.

BrooklynRider
October 17th, 2009, 02:29 AM
I am still trying to go Stratight for it. :cool:

Yo mama so stupid that she puts lipstick on her head just to make-up her mind.

ZippyTheChimp
October 17th, 2009, 08:15 AM
I know about that function and use it often, but it just ain't the same.http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

It looks exactly the same to me, except for the chimp in the corner.

lofter1
October 17th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Not exactly the same in Preview ...

For one, spacing at the bottom is different.

ZippyTheChimp
October 17th, 2009, 03:55 PM
Excuse me, this is too complicated. I'm gonna go study the picture of the Balloon Boy Family.

Ninjahedge
October 19th, 2009, 10:23 AM
The fact that most people do not even use the spellchecker should be enough to show why people do not see or use the preview pane.

Besides, a lot of times a mistake is seen after you submit, regarless of whether or not you looked it over in Preview. Sometimes you don't see it until someone else points it out (thus the reason for "proofreading" by another).


/shrug.

BrooklynRider
October 19th, 2009, 10:25 PM
Your 8,000 post better be something more juicy and provocative than this.;)

Ninjahedge
October 20th, 2009, 12:06 PM
Your 8,000 post better be something more juicy and provocative than this.;)


I completely missed it!!!!!!!



Maybe it was the "yo Momma" thread.... :(


/me looks for 8000th post to abuse editing ability to make "juicy".

kz1000ps
October 21st, 2009, 11:21 PM
http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

It looks exactly the same to me, except for the chimp in the corner.

Oh shush. Let me be irrational!

MidtownGuy
June 26th, 2010, 07:24 PM
for the record: uh...Midtown... I posted that update completely unaware of what you were posting. I did so in response to Alonzo's request.

so then "for the record" as you say, what request did he make between 7:40 and 7:46 ?