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brianac
November 26th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Can't say I agree with this article but there are some valid points.


From The Times

November 23, 2009


'New York has lost its edge'

Readers of Time Out magazine recently voted New York to be the greatest city in the world. Stefanie Marsh begs to differ

brianac
November 26th, 2009, 09:10 AM
Don't know what the hell went wrong with the above post.

Tried to edit and tried to delete, but couldn't.

Now I can't be bothered, so here is the link to the article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/destinations/usa/article6927383.ece

Codex
November 26th, 2009, 09:32 AM
An interesting article, however New York is more than just Manhattan, just as London is more than Central London.

I am sure there are still pockets of creativity throughout NYC and it's outskirts, and that these areas still remain largely uneffected by gentrification and what some have termed the disneyfication of Manhattan

It also should be noted that many areas in London have seen a good deal of gentrification, most notably areas such as Notting Hill and that London has also lost iconic clubs such as the Hammersmith Palais which The Clash payed tribute to in 'White Man in Hammersmith Palais'. More recently still the London Astoria has been demolished to make way for Crossrail, although a replacement is promised.



I do feel that NYC has lost some of it's charm, you just need to look at how Times Square was before they tried to turn in to some neon disneyland more suited to Las Vegas strip than New York.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/3579801665_9916827f69_b.jpg




:)

londonlawyer
November 26th, 2009, 10:08 AM
I read that article, and it's BS.

While it's well-documented that I prefer London and Paris, NY and London clearly are the best cities in the world in terms of what they offer.

PS: It sucks huge schlong that that beautiful building in Times Sq. became so run down, and it sucks bigger schlong that it was razed.

Derek2k3
November 26th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Don't know what the hell went wrong with the above post.

Tried to edit and tried to delete, but couldn't.

Now I can't be bothered, so here is the link to the article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/destinations/usa/article6927383.ece

Doesn't seem like a lot of research went into that article and it's written from the perspective of a visitor. Has Manhattan lost much of its "edge", yes.

Because of the expense, a lot more people just go to parties and bars in their own neighborhood. I think tourists and eurotrash are just as much (if not more) to blame as folks who work on Wall Street. No real New Yorker would pay the prices that some of these places are asking.

Alonzo-ny
November 26th, 2009, 11:31 AM
I think NY is a fantastic city but it has been watered down. I don't see how tourists are to blame. They are there for a week or so and leave. They can't influence the decisions made by developers etc. They may be the target market but you can't blame that problem on anyone but NY. If it wasn't for 'eurotrash' and other people from outside the US then NY would be nothing compared to what it is.

londonlawyer
November 26th, 2009, 11:45 AM
I don't think that NY has been watered down at all.

Because NY (and London) are the richest cities in the world, they attract talent from all over the world.

If urban degeneration, as characterized by NY in the 1970s and 80s, were a necessary condition for creativity, then Detroit would be the new Athens.

Derek2k3
November 26th, 2009, 12:02 PM
If it wasn't for 'eurotrash' and other people from outside the US then NY would be nothing compared to what it is.
I'm obviously talking about tourists, not immigrants who came here to live from another place. There were far less tourists in past decades and Manhattan was a lot more interesting and cheaper without them.

Yes you can blame developers for choosing sterile retail tenants, but they do as they've always done, seek tenants that pay the highest rent. If there wasn't a demand for these spaces, they wouldn't be there. New Yorkers aren't the ones keeping Olive Garden in Times Square in business.

infoshare
November 26th, 2009, 12:08 PM
I read that article, and it's BS.

While it's well-documented that I prefer London and Paris, NY and London clearly are the best cities in the world in terms of what they offer.




I agree about the article: and I would put a few more cities than Paris & London on the list before New York: but that being said - New York is still a great town.

In the end: it all comes down to the parable of the elephant (http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~rywang/berkeley/258/parable.html).

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~rywang/berkeley/258/parable.html

londonlawyer
November 26th, 2009, 12:12 PM
Really, what cities would you put ahead of NY?

For example, I love Madrid, Barcelona, Vienna and Munich, and I'd prefer to live in all of them more than NY. However, I think that NY is way better than all of them.

infoshare
November 26th, 2009, 12:23 PM
Really, what cities would you put ahead of NY?



Copenhagen, Seattle (USA) , Stockholm, Amsterdam, Austin TX (USA) , Sydney, Edinburgh, and a few others.

Maybe even: Charleotte NC.... seriously. (I think that is where you live now?)

That still put NYC on my TOP TEN list: barely. :eek:

Again (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=306591&postcount=9), it all comes down to the parable of the elephant. "In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."

Cheers.

londonlawyer
November 26th, 2009, 01:12 PM
Seattle is nice, but it does not even remotely compare to NY.

As far as Charlotte goes, it's a very good place for families with kids to live, but as a city, it absolutely sucks.

antinimby
November 26th, 2009, 01:19 PM
It's hard to have an "edge" (whatever that is) when it seems like there are at least five bank branches on every block.



Special Report: How Banks Took Over the West Side

by Avi (http://westsideindependent.com/author/admin/) - November 23, 2009 (http://westsideindependent.com/2009/11/23/special-report-how-banks-took-over-the-upper-west-side/)


http://westsideindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/banks_composed_big.jpg


By Victoria Finkle

There was a certain irony to the controversy that erupted in 2006 when Apple Bank decided to convert the top seven floors of its landmark building on 74th Street and Broadway into luxury condominiums. Preservationists feared that the 1928 building would lose its iconic character when its upper floors were turned into something other than a bank.

Meanwhile, banks have been turning the rest of the Upper West Side into a kind of walk-through ATM, helping push out the small businesses that give the neighborhood its charm.

The limestone Apple Bank still looks much as it did in 1928, but the Upper West Side has changed dramatically in recent years. Independent bookstores, markets, and boutiques have disappeared, and “in the place of all these old friends are cell-phone dealers, chain drugstores and, of course, banks. Wherever one looks is a walk-in bank,” wrote actress and Upper West Side resident Lee Grant in an impassioned letter to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/opinion/l10grant.html?scp=3&sq=%22lee%20grant%22&st=cse) this past August.

Since 2002, the number of bank branches on the UWS has almost doubled, with branches now outnumbering Starbucks three to one. This compares to nationwide bank branch growth of about 15 percent over the same period.

As of this summer, there were 47 bank branches on the Upper West Side, according to data from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (we looked at FDIC data for zip codes 10023, 10024, and 10025). Include credit unions and stand-alone ATM’s and the number climbs to 53.

To be sure, banks are not the only major corporate chains on the block. And chain stores are not the only ones to survive, or even thrive, in the area.

“As the Upper West Side has become a headquarters for affluent families, a number of independent stores and small chains have opened up,” explains Faith Hope Consolo, a prominent city Realtor and chairwoman of Prudential Douglas Elliman’s retail division. “So yes, we have Apple, but we also have Only Hearts. We get Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods, but also Gourmet Garage.”

Nevertheless, as demand for commercial property has grown, prices have followed suit. Between the spring of 2001 and the fall of 2008, average retail asking rents swelled almost 60 percent on the Upper West Side, according to data released in May 2009 by the Real Estate Board of New York.

For small business owners already on the edge, the rise in prices proved unsustainable. And worse, national chains, including banks, were likely at the root of this surge. “National chains certainly do play a factor in driving up rents…particularly when the economy is strong,” says Consolo.



http://westsideindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/bank-branches-data-1024x682.jpg



When renting commercial space, it turns out that property managers operate much like the Federal Reserve, working most closely with those deemed “too big to fail.” Put simply, banks and chains have large corporations standing behind them, and property managers like the financial security that entails. This means that small businesses must compete with what Consolo calls “the nine hundred pound guerrilla” of big business.

“We have had property managers looking for higher rents [and] their hope was that they could get a chain or a bank in there,” says Peter Arndtsen, the manager for the Columbus-Amsetrdam business improvement district, which covers the area between 96th and 110th Streets. “They had this expectation that they could get a higher rent than a smaller store.”

Particularly during boom times, large corporations have better credit and are perceived as more likely to pay rent every month. Large corporations may even be willing to open a store in a popular retail area like the Upper West Side at a loss, just to establish a brand or keep shoppers from going elsewhere. Further, they are more likely to lease multiple spaces around the city and combine adjoining commercial spaces, a perk for property managers looking to fill as many vacancies as possible in one fell swoop.

Unfortunately, the interests of property managers do not always coincide with the needs or demands of neighborhood residents. For residents, local businesses are “the heart and soul of the neighborhood,” says District 6 City Councilmember Gale Brewer. “The trouble with having so many banks is that it kills the excitement of a streetscape.”


http://westsideindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/hsbc.jpg



The desire of property managers to lease to that new bank or chain retailer has also increased the number of vacancies in the area, another drag on neighborhood appearance and vitality. Some property managers are content to let commercial spaces stay vacant for months or even years, holding out for that big corporate fish.

“It doesn’t make any sense to me, but it’s something that’s a part of some managers’ strategy, I guess,” says Arndtsen.

Though rumors have circulated that property managers may actually profit from keeping a storefront vacant, Councilmember Brewer has found no evidence of tax benefits conferred to property managers who fail to rent their properties, after contacting several state and local tax authorities on the matter. She notes that a number of constituents have contacted her with concerns about so many vacancies in the area.

Arndtsen, who created a page on the Columbus-Amsterdam BID’s website to track local commercial vacancies, has heard similar complaints from local retailers. Business owners want to be located on blocks that are vibrant and likely to attract shoppers.

Being located next to an empty storefront with “a gate down or even …a sign in the window saying that it’s for rent isn’t really going to attract anybody that is likely to shop in one place. You really need to have a grouping of stores in one place to make it attractive,” according to Arndtsen.

But, leaving aside the fact that some property managers are eager to land a deal with chain retailers, the question remains: why are there so many banks? According to Consolo, “Banks were always a player, but post-9/11 they became a major player because they were more active than other sectors of the market.”

Of course, banks would not have opened in the neighborhood at such a pace if they did not believe it would be profitable. A study by the FDIC in 2004 found that although opening new bank branches is expensive for financial institutions, banks with larger branch networks tend to be more profitable than competitors.


http://westsideindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/bank-of-america.jpg



In fact, consumers nationwide continue to rank location of bank offices as the most important reason for choosing a particular institution for their main checking account, according to data from the Federal Reserve Board’s Survey of Consumer Finances. In 2007, 46 percent of consumers ranked location highest among their priorities in choosing a banking institution.

Despite the vast growth in online banking technology, this figure has actually increased slightly over the past decade.

Nevertheless, the bottom line is that banks represent just one player in a larger cyclical process of neighborhood development, a process in which the scales seem to be tipped towards large corporations. And, at least in the short term, banks may have played themselves out. Bank branch expansion has slowed dramatically since 2007 on the Upper West Side, and there was no new growth between 2008 and 2009, likely the result of the recession. Consolo predicts that apparel companies and home furnishing stores are likely to be the next big movers in the area, as the “nine hundred pound guerilla just puts a different suit on.”

In the meantime, the recession may actually provide an opening for some small business owners in the area. The average asking rent in the neighborhood has taken a major hit in the wake of the financial crisis, falling by about 25 percent between the fall of 2008 and the spring of 2009, according to the most recent data from the Real Estate Board of New York. As a result, “property managers seem to be much less inclined to wait for a chain or a bank,” according to Arndtsen.

Of course, it’s too early to tell if the recession will eventually lead to a turnaround for small business on the Upper West Side. While lower rents may attract more small business owners to the area, owners will still need to compete with the national behemoths to survive. And they will have to do so with fewer total dollars floating around, as retail spending and consumer confidence remain shaky. Ultimately, it’s up to local residents to open their wallets if they are committed to keeping small businesses in the area. After a quick trip to the bank for some cash, that is. (Bank chart and photos by Victoria Finkle. Map and photo illustration by Ben Zapp)

Copyright © 2009 Westside Independent (http://westsideindependent.com/)

lofter1
November 26th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Has New York lost its edge?

Still a great place, but 'tain't what it used to be -- which is both good and bad.

However, the following is ridiculous -- and plain stupid in the way that it sentimentalizes such acts:


There is always a tinge of sentimental pride in my friend Roger’s voice when he recalls the story of how he was humiliatingly mugged as a teenager in his home town of New York ...

“That day” Roger likes to reminisce, not altogether ironically, “we became men.”

Those things don’t happen in New York any more. But some people wish they did.

One only need to look here to show how mis-informed such a statement is:

TLOZ Link5 Project (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42)

NYC offers plenty of challenges to test one's soul -- aspiring to being mugged is a very low mark to hit.

Fabrizio
November 26th, 2009, 02:22 PM
^ That statement was so stupid that it disqualified the entire article for me.

-----

Ok, here's one for you all to chew on (together with that dry left-over white meat):

In the 70's and 80's, NYC still produced culture changing trends.

But what's happening now? What is coming out of NYC that the rest of the US, or world, should know about?

Please post your ideas.

---

BTW: I think I can name one... but let's see if any one hits it (or if I'm out of touch).

Codex
November 26th, 2009, 10:37 PM
I don't think that NY has been watered down at all.

Because NY (and London) are the richest cities in the world, they attract talent from all over the world.

If urban degeneration, as characterized by NY in the 1970s and 80s, were a necessary condition for creativity, then Detroit would be the new Athens.

It all depends how you define creativity, whether you view it as being more bohemian, artistic and expressive or include business and entrepreneural talent, or even a mixture of the two.

London is seen as a creative city, but is often beaten in the creativity stakes by UK cities such as Brighton, Manchester and Bristol, who often come out ahead in studies on creativity.

The same is true of NYC with US studies often citing cities such as San Francisco and places such as Portland, Oregon as more creative.

On a European level cities such as Prague, Amsterdam, Berlin and Barcelona have often been put ahead of London in terms of creativity, however this begs the question as to how creativity is defined. Is creativity artistic pursuit, bohemian alternative lifestyles and freedom of expression or is it equally defined by the ability to plug business markets, to innovate products and in terms of entrepreneurialism, in terms of the latter both NYC and London are world leaders.



:)

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 06:46 AM
Is creativity artistic pursuit, bohemian alternative lifestyles and freedom of expression or is it equally defined by the ability to plug business markets, to innovate products and in terms of entrepreneurialism, in terms of the latter both NYC and London are world leaders.

^ Could you be more specific though? Using all of those paradigms mentioned above, can you tell us of some examples of where London & New York have a creative edge?

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 12:20 PM
^ Could you be more specific though? Using all of those paradigms mentioned above, can you tell us of some examples of where London & New York have a creative edge?

Most creativity indexes are based on a simplified version of a research tool developed by Richard Florida, the US economic regeneration expert.

Florida measured the appeal of American cities to the new creative class, which he argues are a key indicator of a city’s economic health. The three key indicators identified by Florida were ethnic diversity; proportion of gay residents, and the number of patent applications per head of population.

http://www.demos.co.uk/press_releases/bohobritain

http://www.thestar.com/article/656837 (http://www.thestar.com/article/656837)

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0205.florida.html

Amongst those who use the Florida system are Boho Britain and Demos in order to judge the creativity of UK Cities and the same system is used in the US.

However are Florida's key indicators a comprehensive evaluation of a cities creativity, or is there more to it, surely a cities creativity is reflected in it's arts, music, buildings and other criteria. Furthermore does a large gay population or ethnic diversity immediately equal creativity, and given that most major patents now require a good deal of scientific research and research capital it is major corporations such as drugs companies that file the most patents. The patents of individuals are often more basic ideas, and it should be noted that some individuals make a career of bombarding patent offices with their hair brained schemes. Furthermore if
patents per head of population were good indicators then both Cambridges in the UK and the US would dominate Boho indexes, with Oxford, Princeton, New Haven all up there.

As for Richard Florida and his index, there is an array of critics.

http://www.thestar.com/article/656837 (http://www.thestar.com/article/656837)





:)

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 12:41 PM
I'm familiar with Florida and have posted about him here in the past. And in fact using his system (agree with it or not)... NY and London do not have a creative edge.

But I am asking you... in regard to your statement, "..is creativity artistic pursuit, bohemian alternative lifestyles and freedom of expression or is it equally defined by the ability to plug business markets, to innovate products and in terms of entrepreneurialism, in terms of the latter both NYC and London are world leaders."

Some examples of where NY and London have a creative edge... or are as you say "world leaders".

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 12:44 PM
I'm familiar with Florida and have posted about him here in the past. And in fact using his system (agree with it or not)... NY and London do not have a creative edge.

But I am asking you... in regard to your statement, "..is creativity artistic pursuit, bohemian alternative lifestyles and freedom of expression or is it equally defined by the ability to plug business markets, to innovate products and in terms of entrepreneurialism, in terms of the latter both NYC and London are world leaders."

Some examples of where NY and London have a creative edge... or are as you say "world leaders".

In terms of where London and NYC lead, this can be found in what the Japanese have coined as the Wimbledon Effect which helps attract business creativity and businesses from across the globe to London and indeed NYC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_Effect)

http://www.drsohn.com/ds/Commentary/viewPost.aspx?PN=97 (http://www.drsohn.com/ds/Commentary/viewPost.aspx?PN=97)

If you read my above posts I point out that both London & NYC reguarly lose out to other cities in Creativity Studies, although these are often based on Florida's work. However both London and NYC attract business creativity and business from across the world in what is deemed the 'Wimbledon Effect' and this in itself offers a creative edge in terms of business creativity, and it is in this repect that both cities are world leaders.




:)

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 01:03 PM
^ So they have an edge in "business creativity". Is that it?

But even there.... do they really. What are some interesting creative ways of doing business or business models that have come out of these two cities in the last 10 years?

You mention: "The ability to plug business markets, to innovate products and in terms of entrepreneurialism, " Examples?

Internet as business... that's truly new.... but the ideas and technology did not come out of either of them. Any others?


--

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 01:24 PM
^ So they have an edge in "business creativity". Is that it?

But even there.... do they really. What are some interesting creative ways of doing business or business models that have come out of these two cities in the last 10 years?

You mention: "The ability to plug business markets, to innovate products and in terms of entrepreneurialism, " Examples?

Internet as business... that's truly new.... but the ideas and technology did not come out of either of them. Any others?


--

I am sorry I am not getting in to an argument over business models, London and NYC are acknowledged as world leaders within global business and financial markets, with London having particular expertise in the Financial Sector such as Commodities and Insurance. Furthermore Oxford and Cambridge are also major innovators and with London form what is known as the 'Golden Traingle', which is also a major hub for the pharmaceutical industry and major British Pharmaceutical Companies such as Glaxo Smith Kline (one of the largest Pharma Company in the World) and Astra Zenaca, whilst Pfizer have a major research facility at Sandwich in Kent.

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/media_centre/keyfacts.htm

http://www.thinklondon.com/business_facts/

http://www.usatoday.com/marketplace/ibi/london.htm

http://www.londonentrepreneurschallenge.com/

The Golden Triangle also erncompasses what is konown as the 'Silicon Fen' - an extremely creative area with a high rate of hi-tech and bio-tech start ups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Fen

http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/2009111135821/technology/silicon-valley-entrepreneurs-reach-out-to-fen-counterparts.html

It's also little wonder that London is home to two Universities that feature in the World Top Ten according to the QS University Rankings, with both University College London (UCL) and Imperial College London featuring in the top ten alongside Oxford and Cambridge.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_London

Furthermore the London Business School MBA Programme is ranked 2nd in the entire world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Business_School#cite_note-ft-1

Whilst the London School of Economics and Political Science is recognised as being amongst the best in the world in terms of it's specialist field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Economics#cite_note-58

In terms of being a knowledge hub London is home both to a public library system that boasts over 17 million books and the British Library which houses a further 14 million books and over 150 million items, whilst there is also an array of University, Professional Associations, Museum Libraries and the largest private members library in the world, 'The London Library'.

http://www.london.gov.uk/lcsg/docs/Capital-Culture-35.pdf

http://www.bl.uk/ (http://www.bl.uk/)

http://www.londonlibrary.co.uk/

London is also home to over 250 Museums and Numerous Art Galleries, whilst Central London has over 150 Theatres. There are also five world class symphony orchestras in London, two opera houses and numerous concert halls ranging from the Royal Albert Hall and Royal Festival Hall through to the Barbican, Kings Place, Wignore Hall and Cadogan Hall.

http://www.mlalondon.org.uk/uploads/documents/Team_Administrator_Info_Pack.pdf


There are also some of the largest museum libraries in the world amongst London's 250 museums.

http://www.mlalondon.org.uk/sector/index.cfm

London is also home to many of the most highly respected academic and specialist libraries in the world, with over 21 million books held in London Academic Libraries.

http://www.londonhigher.ac.uk/fileadmin/documents/Libraries_Keyfacts06.pdf

http://www.intstudy.com/studyinlondon/index.htm


I can't speak on New York's behalf but I am sure it is equally impressive in terms of it's culture and academic acheivements, and New York is also a global knowledge hub.



:)

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Statistics about how many Universities, Business Schools,...the Libraries.... the Royal Albert Hall... and so forth...you are describing the rich culturall environment of London. Which we all know. And that's wonderful.

But if the concrete examples "...expertise in the Financial Sector such as Commodities and Insurance, "the pharmaceutical industry", "'Silicon Fen' " (even the use of the word Silicon here is copied from a place that's not NYC or London)... are considered "creative edge"... well ok... no argument, but I guess I just long for the days when "creative edge" meant things like Abstract Expressionism and Modern Jazz...

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 03:31 PM
Statistics about how many Universities, Business Schools,...the Libraries.... the Royal Albert Hall... and so forth...you are describing the rich culturall environment of London. Which we all know. And that's wonderful.

But if the concrete examples "...expertise in the Financial Sector such as Commodities and Insurance, "the pharmaceutical industry", "'Silicon Fen' " (even the use of the word Silicon here is copied from a place that's not NYC or London)... are considered "creative edge"... well ok... no argument, but I guess I just long for the days when "creative edge" meant things like Abstract Expressionism and Modern Jazz...

There is a renowned Jazz scene in London with legendary clubs such as Ronnie Scotts.

http://www.ronniescotts.co.uk/

http://www.viewlondon.co.uk/pubsandbars/jazz-bars-in-london-recommended-london-60.html

http://www.londonjazzfestival.org.uk/

Whilst in terms of art their is every conceivable variety in London, as well as Bohemian Art Districts such as Hoxton and Shoreditch.

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22772



:)

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 03:36 PM
Codex: the Tourism Bureau posts are nice, but I think you are missing the point...

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 03:41 PM
Interesting observations by Brian Eno... along the same theme:


(there is an opinion piece about this article in todays NYTImes)


The death of uncool

BRIAN ENO — 25TH NOVEMBER 2009

It’s odd to think back on the time—not so long ago—when there were distinct stylistic trends, such as “this season’s colour” or “abstract expressionism” or “psychedelic music.” It seems we don’t think like that any more. There are just too many styles around, and they keep mutating too fast to assume that kind of dominance.

As an example, go into a record shop and look at the dividers used to separate music into different categories. There used to be about a dozen: rock, jazz, ethnic, and so on. Now there are almost as many dividers as there are records, and they keep proliferating. The category I had a hand in starting—ambient music—has split into a host of subcategories called things like “black ambient,” “ambient dub,” “ambient industrial,” “organic ambient” and 20 others last time I looked. A similar bifurcation has been happening in every other living musical genre (except for “classical” which remains, so far, simply “classical”), and it’s going on in painting, sculpture, cinema and dance.

We’re living in a stylistic tropics. There’s a whole generation of people able to access almost anything from almost anywhere, and they don’t have the same localised stylistic sense that my generation grew up with. It’s all alive, all “now,” in an ever-expanding present, be it Hildegard of Bingen or a Bollywood soundtrack. The idea that something is uncool because it’s old or foreign has left the collective consciousness.

I think this is good news. As people become increasingly comfortable with drawing their culture from a rich range of sources—cherry-picking whatever makes sense to them—it becomes more natural to do the same thing with their social, political and other cultural ideas. The sharing of art is a precursor to the sharing of other human experiences, for what is pleasurable in art becomes thinkable in life.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2009/11/the-death-of-uncool/


^ Question: what does this mean for a London or NYC?

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Codex: the Tourism Bureau posts are nice, but I think you are missing the point...

Which is?????????

You asked about Modern Jazz and I suggested Ronnie Scotts one of the most famous Jazz Clubs in the world, you asked about Abstract Expressionism and I posted you a list of London Galleries including the Saatchi Gallery which specialises in unique modern art and of course the Tata Modern which houses a diversity of modern art pieces and exhibitions.

So you can go and watch your Modern Jazz or view your Abstract Expressionism in London, and if that doesn't satisfy you then you can go to the bohemian areas such as Hoxton and Shoreditch and mingle with the bohemian art crowd or view the local galleries such as White Cube.

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 03:50 PM
^ Codex: once upon a time these things were "avant-garde"...

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 03:55 PM
There’s a whole generation of people able to access almost anything from almost anywhere, and they don’t have the same localised stylistic sense that my generation grew up with.

It means London and NYC need to compete to be the places that the new generation access whether it be the British Library On-line or the works of contemporary British Artists such as Banksy or Damien Hirst.

It also means London and New York must further pursue their position as global knowledge hubs not just in an academic sense but also in relation to the arts and global culture.

Finally London and New York are amongst the least localised cities on the planet, both having an international outlook and diversity which transends borders and styles, and if anything this gives NYC and London an advantage in this new age of globalisation.


:)

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 04:01 PM
^ Codex: once upon a time these things were "avant-garde"...

The Young British Artists (YBAs) were considered Avante Garde, and there are those who still push boundaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_British_Artists

However in terms of Jazz, it's along time since any form of Jazz has been considered Avante Garde, and that applies to the Jazz scene globally.

In terms of Avate Garde music scenes, both London and New York were at the centre of one of the most Avante Garde Music Scenes ever produced, the Punk scene of the 1970's.



The YBAs put Goldsmiths, University of London, on the global Art Map

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/31/95469745_b7e964802f_b.jpg



:)

lofter1
November 27th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Is the scaffolding a permanent part of that YBA building?

In NYC they might as well start designing buildings with such edgy external amenities, as it seems half the buildings here are covered in that stuff at any given time. And even new buildings, once complete, seem to get a new growth within months of opening.

As for new forms in the performing arts on this side of the divide: I've not yet seen this show but choreographer / director Bill T. Jones has just opened a production -- Fela! (http://www.felaonbroadway.com/) -- on Broadway (a place better known these days for live-action cartoons) that has folks talking (http://www.broadway.com/videos/all/opening-night-fela/), using terms like "innovative (http://www.broadway.com/shows/fela/buzz/powerful-opening-night-innovative-new-musical-fela/)" "unlike anything you’ve ever seen on Broadway before," "hot (and seriously cool) (http://theater.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/theater/reviews/24fela.html?ref=theater)," a "boundary-busting project," " ...throbs with a stirring newness that is not to be confused with novelty ... there has never been anything on Broadway like this production" and a "wildly loose-limbed journey into the throbbing heart of Afrobeat [that] breaks bold new ground in musical theater (http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117941667.html?categoryid=33&cs=1)."

Even the often caustic and cruel critic John Simon (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aNekI98AswaA) is enthralled:


Perhaps the closest I can come to conveying my experience of “Fela!” is to call it a great humane and transcendent fable come to life, with everything “fable” implies: mythic, fabulous and a supreme lesson in living, here supplied magisterially by choreographer Bill T. Jones and his star, Sahr Ngaujah ... there are Fela’s music and Jones’s equally matchless dances, uniquely combining earthiness with flight, dynamics with delicacy and drive to equal, if not surpass, Olympian ideals.

Can a musical on Broadway ever be considered "edgy?" In these hard times the fact that folks have chosen to present this story, which was definitely risky (if folks like producers Jay-Z and Will & Jada Pinkett Smith with all their "they'd barely feel it if they lost it" millions can be considered financial risk takers), says a lot about what NYers yearn and work to create in these un-edgy times.

There's still something to that Empire State of Mind (http://blog.felaonbroadway.com/2009/11/empire-state-of-mind.html) ...

Fabrizio
November 27th, 2009, 06:42 PM
^ And here I thought it was an all-black production of "The Most Happy Fella!"

--

How old is John Simon anyway? He's probably just glad to be alive.

Codex
November 27th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Is the scaffolding a permanent part of that YBA building?

In NYC they might as well start designing buildings with such edgy external amenities, as it seems half the buildings here are covered in that stuff at any given time. And even new buildings, once complete, seem to get a new growth within months of opening.

As for new forms in the performing arts on this side of the divide: I've not yet seen this show but choreographer / director Bill T. Jones has just opened a production -- Fela! (http://www.felaonbroadway.com/) -- on Broadway (a place better known these days for live-action cartoons) that has folks talking (http://www.broadway.com/videos/all/opening-night-fela/), using terms like "innovative (http://www.broadway.com/shows/fela/buzz/powerful-opening-night-innovative-new-musical-fela/)" "unlike anything you’ve ever seen on Broadway before," "hot (and seriously cool) (http://theater.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/theater/reviews/24fela.html?ref=theater)," a "boundary-busting project," " ...throbs with a stirring newness that is not to be confused with novelty ... there has never been anything on Broadway like this production" and a "wildly loose-limbed journey into the throbbing heart of Afrobeat [that] breaks bold new ground in musical theater (http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117941667.html?categoryid=33&cs=1)."

Even the often caustic and cruel critic John Simon (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aNekI98AswaA) is enthralled:



Can a musical on Broadway ever be considered "edgy?" In these hard times the fact that folks have chosen to present this story, which was definitely risky (if folks like producers Jay-Z and Will & Jada Pinkett Smith with all their "they'd barely feel it if they lost it" millions can be considered financial risk takers), says a lot about what NYers yearn and work to create in these un-edgy times.

There's still something to that Empire State of Mind (http://blog.felaonbroadway.com/2009/11/empire-state-of-mind.html) ...

It's Goldsmith College part of the University of London and no the scaffolding is not permanent however the Will Allsop designed Ben Pimlott building does have a permanent twisted steel sculpture on it's roof. By the way the YBAs are an influencial group of Avant Garde British Artists who mainly attended Goldsmiths. Daimen Hirst being one of the more famous ex-Goldsmiths YBA crowd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_British_Artists

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Goldsmiths_Pimlott_Building.jpg/800px-Goldsmiths_Pimlott_Building.jpg

In terms of Broadway and West End plays they are usually more about attracting audiences than being edgy, however the Arts Council in the UK does fund theatres such as the National, whose recent production War Horse has been met with critical acclaim. Other theatre companies such as the Royal Shakespeare Company (RSC) and Young Vic also receive arts council funding.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/stage/theatre/article6911136.ece

War Horse - http://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/warhorse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpyD3ABIHI4&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh+div-HM

http://www.scottmarshall.co.uk/img/uploads/chris-shutt---sound-designer-for-warhorse-national-theatre.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2851249134_5a9fb36479_o.jpg

Ninjahedge
December 3rd, 2009, 01:43 AM
The one thing to remember, that Gentrification does pose a threat to artistic communities mostly in regard to the affordability of both the living areas and just the cost of the plain old day-to-day.

But what should also be remembered is this, no matter how much fluff you put on something, if you have a good core, if you have some of these hotspots, you STILL have the creative possibility for something new. New York and London are SO HUGE that you can easily be overwhelmed by the Cartoon Disney on Broadway, but then you also have to realize that this very proliferance makes it possible to have plays like the one that Loft mentioned.

Not many other municipalities can afford to have anything "different".

So while it may be argued that the concentration of "art" and creativity had diminished in the city(s), when you are talking about a city as large and diverse as NYC (or London), it just is not right to say their creativity is non existant.

Ratio = bad
Absolute Quantity = Good.

lofter1
December 3rd, 2009, 11:11 AM
'New York has lost its edge'


The edge is sharp, at least architecture-wise according to Ada Louise Huxtable (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703499404574561752812990912.html) ...




From CURBED (http://curbed.com/archives/2009/12/03/more_praise_for_bowery_spaceships_spin_on_human_st airs.php#more): NYC lover and examinatrix of architecture, Ada Louise Huxtable, is crazy for Cooper Union's new building ...

State of the Cooper Union

New Yorkers take good things for granted. We accept the city's virtues as entitlements and are vocal about its imperfections—we complain, or kvetch, in the native parlance, with passionate expertise. When a good thing has been around for a while it takes something surprising and preferably controversial to bring it back to center stage.

That is clearly the case for the Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art and its dramatic new building, a stunning—some would say startling—addition to the 150-year-old institution that has occupied its landmark Foundation Building on Cooper Square since 1859. Designed by Thom Mayne of Morphosis, a West Coast firm based in Santa Monica, Calif., in association with Gruzen Samton of New York, the bold new arrival has been widely praised by the architectural community and sharply criticized by those who see it as a contextual affront to the neighborhood. This is a disagreement that won't go away any time soon ...

This is architecture that takes no prisoners. The evidence suggests that you do not look to him for cuddly or uncontroversial buildings ..

... an appropriate learning environment for those engaged in creative disciplines. Applying a tough sensibility to a tough assignment revitalized an amorphous status quo. To this native New Yorker who has watched the city evolve over decades and treasures its unrelenting diversity, Mr. Mayne has got it just right ...

This is high architectural drama, a luminous and exhilarating invitation into the structure's life and use. It is not building as bling. It is how architecture turns program and purpose into art. And it perfectly expresses the creative energy of New York.

— Ms. Huxtable is the Journal's architecture critic.

Copyright ©2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

Alonzo-ny
December 3rd, 2009, 12:30 PM
She is sadly mistaken if she thinks NY is at the cutting edge of contemporary architecture. This building exemplifies fad architecture at its worst. Ugly and superficial.

londonlawyer
December 3rd, 2009, 01:52 PM
NY has some amazing midrises especially in Chelsea, and it has some magnificent supertalls in the pipeline.

While I regard London to be beautiful due to its 19th and 20th Century structures, the overwhelming majority of its new architecture is hardly world-class. Heron, for example, is nothing special. Walbrook, across from Canon Street Station, is attractive, but hardly world-class or even innovative. The new St. Botolphs project near Algate is downright ugly and Chang-esque. The new Westminster Bridge building near Waterloo looks like MSG with new (and ridiculous looking) glass. 100 Middlesex isn't anything special, nor is Riverbank House, Arundel Court, etc., etc. Moreover, the whole of CW is simply lame.

These two, new, contiguous, Class-A developments are merely 100m versions of Zuckerman/Macklowe utilitarian specials.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/bbc/DSC_4167.jpg

lofter1
December 3rd, 2009, 01:55 PM
... superficial.

:confused:

It's been explained in depth -- both in this thread and in Huxtable's article -- why this building is anything but "superficial."

How many other NYC buildings have achieved Platinum LEED certification?

Alonzo-ny
December 3rd, 2009, 01:59 PM
I believe I form my own opinion on whether or not the building is superficial.

So LEED is a certification for good design now?

lofter1
December 3rd, 2009, 05:12 PM
LEED (http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=222) is all about efficiency in design and operation.

The metal mesh on the surface of this building has purpose: "Mr. Mayne has used similar screens as energy-saving devices before; this one promises a 50% reduction in heat load."

One might have issues with how this building looks -- art is, after all, subjective. But claims that the design is mere superficiality and faddishness with no function belie what is going on with this particular building.

Or perhaps I misunderstand the use here of the word "superficial."

ablarc
December 3rd, 2009, 07:12 PM
^ superficial, adj.: "being at, on or near the surface." --Random House Dictionary ;)

Fabrizio
December 3rd, 2009, 07:27 PM
superfecal, adj.: "really shitty"

lofter1
December 3rd, 2009, 07:27 PM
aha ;)

btw: Welcome back, ablarc.

Although, even with that as the chosen definition it doesn't suffice for this project, which is, in one aspect, all about the dynamic interior space (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/09/41-cooper-union-tour-thom-mayne-cutting-edge-green-building.php), surrounded by functioning classrooms and labs.

infoshare
December 3rd, 2009, 07:31 PM
I actually think he may have meant to say, super-fecal.

super-fecal, adj. : "being one big POS (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=307270&postcount=540)". -LondonLawyer :D

londonlawyer
December 3rd, 2009, 08:14 PM
Leave it to our resident comedian, Fabrizio, to coin a great word like superfecal. You could write for Southpark, Fabrizio!

As for POS, I adopted that from our esteemed colleague, Lofter. It's a classic.

Codex
December 3rd, 2009, 08:34 PM
NY has some amazing midrises especially in Chelsea, and it has some magnificent supertalls in the pipeline.

While I regard London to be beautiful due to its 19th and 20th Century structures, the overwhelming majority of its new architecture is hardly world-class. Heron, for example, is nothing special. Walbrook, across from Canon Street Station, is attractive, but hardly world-class or even innovative. The new St. Botolphs project near Algate is downright ugly and Chang-esque. The new Westminster Bridge building near Waterloo looks like MSG with new (and ridiculous looking) glass. 100 Middlesex isn't anything special, nor is Riverbank House, Arundel Court, etc., etc. Moreover, the whole of CW is simply lame.



I think the Heron is a good design which will complement the city.

http://www.mindseyemedia.tv/index.php?action=work&do_view=1&id=41

As for London's projects we have lots of world class designs from world class architects. Renzo Piano's London Bridge Tower is magnificent, the Strata in South London is a very good design, the Pinnacle is innovative, whilst Richard Rogers Leadenhall Building is also innovative (cheesegrater).

In terms of mid rises New York has it's share of good and indeed bad, and there are plenty of dubious buildings hiding behind the NYC Skyline, in fact there are plenty of dubious buildings within the NYC Skyline full stop.

Is the new New York Times building or Time Warner Center any more innovative than the Heron???

As for Canary Wharf, it is one of the greatest regeneration projects in Europe and is mainly criticised for being too American looking.

Finally if the worst London has to worry about is a couple of bland buildngs, which have often replaced disgusting eyesores, then I don't think the city has too much to worry about at all, and while I am not a big fan of Riverbank House and other such schemes, I certainly don't find them ugly in the same way as many of the 1960's and 70's concrete monstrocities. As for One Westminster Bridge, it may not be the best design, but believe me it is a thousand times better than what was there before, and the same is true of Riverbank House and many other such schemes.

One Westminster Bridge -

Before

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p49/zedferret/1wb.jpg

http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/6162/img07903vn.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/151745984_be2e302ffb_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/151746138_e431d42802_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/69/157389864_86ba9f6a06_b.jpg

After - The New Westminster Bridge Park Plaza

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/230109089.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/230109065.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/DSC04145.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/DSC04163.jpg

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc360/londonfire/Picture14220041.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3323974355_649d6ca1c3_b.jpg

Alonzo-ny
December 4th, 2009, 05:27 AM
While I am not fond of the exterior of that building it is way better than what was there before. It also has a fantastic interior space and has won awards from the British Council of Offices.

ablarc
December 4th, 2009, 07:38 AM
They replaced Tweedledee with Tweedledum.

Progress?

Codex
December 4th, 2009, 07:42 AM
They replaced Tweedledee with Tweedledum.

Progress?

No they didn't I much prefer what they have built. As for Westminster Plaza it should be noted that such a building would not even raise an eyebrow in New York, a city which pulled down Pennsylvania Station in order to build Pennsylvania Plaza.











.........

ablarc
December 4th, 2009, 07:54 AM
So, what's good about it? The fact that it's round?

Codex
December 4th, 2009, 07:56 AM
So, what's good about it? The fact that it's round?

What's good about Madison Square Gardens, the fact that it is round, or the old World Trade Centre towers the fact they were square.

The building is built in the centre of a roundabout, that's why the design is round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKcTtPcKX9E&feature=related

At least London has the common sense to list building like the nearby Waterloo Station, and whilst buildings like Westminster Plaza come and go, buildings like Waterloo Station are permanent fixtures of this great city.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2442952725_1f3ee4e440_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/197/512501104_0f239c93e6_b.jpg

ablarc
December 4th, 2009, 08:09 AM
You didn't answer my question. What's good about this banal rotundity?

I can tell you what's good about Waterloo Station, and I can tell you what's bad about Madison Square Garden, so I don't need you to answer those questions.

Codex
December 4th, 2009, 08:16 AM
You didn't answer my question. What's good about this banal rotundity?

I can tell you what's good about Waterloo Station, and I can tell you what's bad about Madison Square Garden, so I don't need you to answer those questions.

Being round does not make something banal, and in this case being round makes the best use of available space. The building is functional, airy, modern and will be used unlike the previous LCC building which has stood empty and vandalised since the mid 1980's, and was voted the worst building in Britain by the public.

The IMAX also near the Southbank is round but is not a bad building and has helped to regenerate the area and surroundings. It too was built in the centre of a roundabout.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/BFI_London_IMAX_at_night.jpg/800px-BFI_London_IMAX_at_night.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/BFI_London_IMAX_at_night.jpg)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3238/2619787740_c5ab9ae6b1_b.jpg



As for Waterloo Station, I think most people can see what's good about that building.







:)

ablarc
December 4th, 2009, 08:29 AM
Now you've told me what's good about the Imax (thanks for the nice photos) ... but actually I asked about Tweedledum.

Alonzo-ny
December 4th, 2009, 08:32 AM
They replaced Tweedledee with Tweedledum.

Progress?

Hardly, the old building was a much more offensive design. I agree that the exterior of this building is nothing special but it isn't offensive. The building has a great interior atrium and has been accepted to be a great building to work in and has won prestigious awards for this. I don't know what exactly more you expect from an office building?

ablarc
December 4th, 2009, 08:48 AM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/69/157389864_86ba9f6a06_b.jpg
Well, Tweedledee had a certain sprawling, Falstaffian, gut-filled expansiveness and generosity --like a retriever that's all tongue.

Tweeedledum purses its lips.

From the outside, I can't see the improvement; I'll have to take your word on the atrium (do they let you into it without passing through a metal detector?).

Codex
December 4th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Now you've told me what's good about the Imax (thanks for the nice photos) ... but actually I asked about Tweedledum.

If you read the post I told you what was good about Westminster Bridge Plaza.


The building is functional, airy, modern and will be used unlike the previous LCC building which has stood empty and vandalised since the mid 1980's, and was voted the worst building in Britain by the public.

The building is also as Alonzo-ny points out extremely good inside, with a superb atrium and will be able to host conferences as well as providing hotel rooms and apartments. It will also help regenerate a much neglected area and help provide 800 jobs in a time of recession.

The cladding is a matter of personal taste, as indeed is the buildings shape, but in terms of being functional and in terms of it's surroundings, in the middle of a busy roundabout, it works very well.

What would you want to see built on such a site???????

Finally I prefer the architecture of this Building to the pre-pack identiket motels and hotels that litter America or indeed the Travelodges that have sprung up across Britain with their identikit and really banal architecture.



:)

ablarc
December 4th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Finally I prefer the architecture of this Building to the pre-pack identiket motels and hotels that litter America or indeed the Travelodges that have sprung up across Britain with their identikit and really banal architecture.
Uh-oh, another jingoistic VERSUS post.

I don't do those, you'll have to excuse me.

Codex
December 4th, 2009, 09:09 AM
Uh-oh, another jingoistic VERSUS post.

I don't do those, you'll have to excuse me.

Hardly jingoistic when I included our own travelodges in the equation.

If you want real banality just look to Holiday Inn, Best Western or Comfort Inn or many of the other big chains, compared to some of their hotels Westminster Bridge Plaza is inspirational and has a degree of originality.





:)

Alonzo-ny
December 4th, 2009, 09:16 AM
From the outside, I can't see the improvement; I'll have to take your word on the atrium (do they let you into it without passing through a metal detector?).

I think we almost agree on the exterior, lets just put that to bed. As for the metal detector, how should I know? And is 100% accessability a prerequisite for good architecture now? You really asked the wrong question if you want to know what is good about the atrium.


Uh-oh, another jingoistic VERSUS post.

I don't do those, you'll have to excuse me.

So don't waste our time if that is how you feel. You clearly didn't read Codex' post anyway. He merely said he thinks it is better than cheap architecture that you find in the UK and US. You shouldn't jump to conclusions. You have already dismissed other interesting posts because of this.

antinimby
December 4th, 2009, 09:24 AM
All these threads, "Has New York lost its edge," "New York / London: Comparisons," "London Projects," "London," "Hedge Funds fleeing London" and I'm sure eventually even the "Paris Does the Can't Can't" thread too, will become more or less the same: tons of pictures or renderings of projects in London, or statistics and/or articles about London.

Seriously, do we need this log jam of threads that eventually ends up about London and its projects?

Just asking...

(Oh and by the way, thanks Kris for locking the "Is the EU trying to ruin London's role as the No. 2 financial center?" thread as that would have wound up in a similar manner.)

Codex
December 4th, 2009, 09:52 AM
All these threads, "Has New York lost its edge," "New York / London: Comparisons," "London Projects," "London," "Hedge Funds fleeing London" and I'm sure eventually even the "Paris Does the Can't Can't" thread too, will become more or less the same: tons of pictures or renderings of projects in London, or statistics and/or articles about London.

Seriously, do we need this log jam of threads that eventually ends up about London and its projects?

Just asking...

(Oh and by the way, thanks Kris for locking the "Is the EU trying to ruin London's role as the No. 2 financial center?" thread as that would have wound up in a similar manner.)

I also welcome the closure of "Is the EU trying to ruin London's role as the No. 2 financial center?", however that is not to say the Parisian nightlife isn't worth discussing, nor should the thread descend in to pictures of London.

If London members are posting more than usual that may be in response to certain forum members claiming that London is going to lose it's status as a financial centre or that London architecture such as Westninster Plaza is dreadful. Indeed if you look at this thread you will see that I have merely set out the case for knowledge cities and the Wimbledon effect, and that I was perfectly happy to leave this thread to it's own devises after my post regarding War Horse. With regard to the pictures of Westminster Bridge Plaza these are in response to posts with regard to London architecture.



:)

londonlawyer
December 4th, 2009, 08:59 PM
As I stated, most of what's being built in London is banal crap. It's disingenuous to say that London has cutting-edge architecture because of one great skyscraper, the Shard. NY has a lot of great skyscrapers on tap, and like London, it has a lot of banal structures under construction.

Moreover, the fact that the new crap in London replaces crappier buildings is irrelevant to the point that such new structures are (or are not) "cutting edge."

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 12:00 AM
As I stated, most of what's being built in London is banal crap. It's disingenuous to say that London has cutting-edge architecture because of one great skyscraper, the Shard. NY has a lot of great skyscrapers on tap, and like London, it has a lot of banal structures under construction.

Moreover, the fact that the new crap in London replaces crappier buildings is irrelevant to the point that such new structures are (or are not) "cutting edge."

A lot of what is being built in London is in my opinion (and that of some other forumers) very good, interesting and in many cases innovative, and you just need to go and look at the London Projects thread and forumers such as Nick Taylor, Alonzo-ny, zupermaus etc contributions.

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6580&page=117

All you seem to do is moan on about a few buildings and then conclude that all London is constructing is banal crap when nothing could be further from the truth.

I have actually never seen London look better and London's massive regeneration projects ranging from Kings Cross to the Elephant and Castle through to the Thames Gateway (and many many others) are rejuvenating large swathes of the city.

Finally if you don't like the architecture of Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, César Pelli, Renzo Piano, Ian Simpson, Jean Nouvel etc etc then so be it, but your own personal taste does not mean that everyone shares your taste or indeed your outlook for London. If you find these buildings banal then so be it, but you are becoming like a broken record and merely repeating the same thing on numerous thread. If you don't like London's new building proposals then fine, but you don't have to continually go on and on, we are more than aware of YOUR OPINION by now.

It should be noted that from the begining of time people have disliked new architecture or new forms of art, and every period in London's history has had it's critics, as well as it's supporters.




:(

scumonkey
December 5th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, César Pelli, Renzo Piano, Ian Simpson etc etc all can make banal designs...
nobody can hit the target every time.
I like London BUT I too find a lot of what is now going up
to be somewhat below my expectations.
Better looking than what was there previously does not necessarily make it very good, interesting or innovative-
just better than what was there ...(and I've seen the pics and posts on the other thread:rolleyes:)
Which is where people should be talking about London- I thought this thread was about weather or not NY had lost it's edge...
I think the blade has dulled a little bit over the past ten years- but I've been here a long time and know that's just a part of an
ongoing ever changing cycle.

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 01:08 AM
Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, César Pelli, Renzo Piano, Ian Simpson etc etc all can make banal designs...
nobody can hit the target every time.
I like London BUT I too find a lot of what is now going up
to be somewhat below my expectations.
Better looking than what was there previously does not necessarily make it very good, interesting or innovative-
just better than what was there ...(and I've seen the pics and posts on the other thread:rolleyes:)
Which is where people should be talking about London- I thought this thread was about weather or not NY had lost it's edge...
I think the blade has dulled a little bit over the past ten years- but I've been here a long time and know that's just a part of an
ongoing ever changing cycle.

As I have already said there are a lot of great buildings going up across London and some great rejuvenation schemes. However forumers like London Lawyer are so negative they just continually post pitures of Riverbank House and a few other schemes which everyone recognises as not being among London's best. It's the equivalent of just posting New York's poorest projects and then concluding that everything being built in New York is therefore banal crap.

As for the architects mentioned, they have not built crap in London with Fosters Gherkhin having attained iconic status, with Piano's London Bridge Tower being widely accliamed and Richard Rogers Leadenhall Street project widely welcomed and of course Jean Nouvel's one change is also a project receiving wide interest and indeed much acclaim.

There are lots of good projects going ahead in London and some very good architecture, and to look at a few projects and then declare that most London architecture is crap and banal is pathetic.

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6580

Finally I am more than happy to discuss whether or not NYC has lost it's edge, it is other forumers who keep bringing London and it's architecture in to the equation.




:mad:

scumonkey
December 5th, 2009, 01:25 AM
As I have already said there are a lot of great buildings going up across Londonand said, and said, and said...we also know how you feel;)
I can see how one can get worked up by continual dismissals of a favored local but Repeating yourself in a reply to me,
when I just read basically the same thing in your previous post is, to my ears (i'm sorry- forgive me) just more
London drum beating to my ears...

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 02:00 AM
and said, and said, and said...we also know how you feel;)
I can see how one can get worked up by continual dismissals of a favored local but Repeating yourself in a reply to me,
when I just read basically the same thing in your previous post is, to my ears (i'm sorry- forgive me) just more
London drum beating to my ears...

And said and said until I am tired in response to constant posts either suggesting London will somehow lose it' status as a financial centre or that it's architecture is banal crap.

I am not even interested in discussing London, however I will reply to posts regarding London especially those made in a negative light.

So if you don't want to discuss London then perhaps London Lawyer (a New Yorker) should stop making negative posts in threads that initially have nothing to do with London.

I am more than happy not to discuss London and to leave this thread and others to the relevant discussion the orginal poster envisioned.

scumonkey
December 5th, 2009, 02:30 AM
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/scumonkey/chillpill2.jpg
your preaching to the choir (and I tire of the sermon)... remember-
LL is an equal opportunity proclamator of merde- neither side of the pond is spared.

hbcat
December 5th, 2009, 02:37 AM
Let's just drop all this London talk, for the love of Pete.

London's not even in the same League with New York.

Let's get back to the main topic.

The question is: "Has New York Lost Its Edge?"

NY just won its 29th World Series (Yankees, 27; Mets, 2) only last month. Yes, Petite is a free agent and may retire (or not), and Posada may be losing his edge, but the Yankees will be strong coming into spring training. I'll let Mets fans pipe in for the NL side of things.

No, NY has definitely not lost its edge, imho. Boston and LAA are still going to be tough, but NY is the still the front-runner going into 2010.

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 02:39 AM
your preaching to the choir (and I tire of the sermon)... remember-
LL is an equal opportunity proclamator of merde- neither side of the pond is spared.

I am not concerned as to whether LL is equally negative in respect of other cities, I still disagree with his views with regard to London.

By the way I am perfectly chilled and I am glad you feel the same way about keeping threads relevant, although I am certainly not preaching or giving a sermon in this respect.


London's not even in the same League with New York.

London is a global city alongside New York and Tokyo.

London is also a Alpha World Cities ++ according to the GaWC global cities rakings. Only two cities were given this ranking London and NYC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

http://www.lda.gov.uk/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.1997




:rolleyes:

antinimby
December 5th, 2009, 03:34 AM
LOL Codex. You are taking this way too seriously.



NY just won its 29th World Series (Yankees, 27; Mets, 2) only last month.You forgot to include the Brooklyn Dodgers' one WC and the New York Giants' 5 WC's, in which case, the total would be (an even more astounding) 35. ;)

hbcat
December 5th, 2009, 03:38 AM
^ The Dodgers and Giants took their championships with them when they left -- and good riddance.

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 04:07 AM
LOL Codex. You are taking this way too seriously.



Just putting the record straight, on a statement that was made with serious intent.

scumonkey
December 5th, 2009, 04:16 AM
:D:D:Dthat is the first post on this page you didn't mention....
thank you;)

I think NY had a much wilder nightlife back in the 80's,
but over time attitudes change- NYs edge will dull and sharpen
with those changes, it is what you make of it.

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 08:08 AM
LOL Codex. You are taking this way too seriously....

That's the best part of this thread. It's fun to wind him up.

But anyway, anyone who thinks that London builds better buildings on the whole than NY is in dreamland. Both cities build some masterpieces and a lot of crap.

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 08:14 AM
That's the best part of this thread. It's fun to wind him up.

But anyway, anyone who thinks that London builds better buildings on the whole than NY is in dreamland. Both cities build some masterpieces and a lot of crap.

I don't recall saying anything of the sort with regard to London or NYC, it is you who said London's architecture was crap and banal, I have barely mentioned NYC.

I think you are taking this too seriously and perhaps you should calm down less you suffer from anymore such delusions.

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 08:21 AM
Truce, mate.

I love London, and this thread is getting ridiculous.

Let's focus on what's important.

http://www.microkitten.com/images/c3ru/Brazilian-thong.jpg

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 08:44 AM
Truce, mate.

I love London, and this thread is getting ridiculous.

Let's focus on what's important.



Fine - I don't wish to spoil other non-related threads with arguments over London. :)

By the way I posted some pics of the 'City of London' Pics here, if you are interested. :)

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=307625#post307625

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 08:49 AM
I saw them. They're beautiful.

While I disagree about the quality of all of London's new projects, I've said repeatedly that its individual buildings (primarily from the 18th, 19th and 20th Centuries) are the most beautiful in the world. In some respects, London is more beautiful than Paris.

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 08:00 PM
This video is a "highlights film" of cutting-edge architecture.

http://www.beziercg.com/animation/mov/Sha.html

infoshare
December 6th, 2009, 10:03 AM
....... of cutting-edge architecture.



Nice animation (http://www.beziercg.com/animation/mov/Sha.html). I would miss seeing traditional architectural designs in that sort of cutting-edge built invironmnet; but that film illustrates that you can have a "pretty city" composed almost entirely of contemporary architecture.

The obvious exception being for those who dislike modern architecture: in that case this type of city would be one that has LOST it's it edge.

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 02:29 PM
http://www.microkitten.com/images/c3ru/Brazilian-thong.jpg
Why do arses grow bigger on women?

Do they have more need to sit down?

londonlawyer
December 6th, 2009, 02:45 PM
I like a big ass. How about you?

Alonzo-ny
December 6th, 2009, 03:03 PM
I enjoy that particular one above. NY has great women.

hbcat
December 6th, 2009, 09:05 PM
^ I had a good look at that bum for several minutes and don't know how you deduce New York from that shot. Looks like it could be from Rio, Miami, Nice -- you name it (but not Tyneside, I think). :D

Codex
December 7th, 2009, 02:28 AM
^ I had a good look at that bum for several minutes and don't know how you deduce New York from that shot. Looks like it could be from Rio, Miami, Nice -- you name it (but not Tyneside, I think). :D

Cheryl Cole is from Tyneside :D

http://www.eulust.com/files/images/Cheryl-Cole-4o.preview.jpg

http://blog.taragana.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/cheryl-cole.jpg

http://celebrityandworld.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/cheryl-cole.jpg

As is Donna Air :D

http://www.catwalkqueen.tv/Donna%20Air.jpg

http://soccerlens.com/babes/files/2009/05/donna_air-15.jpg

http://70.38.46.108/data/media/19/Donna%20Air%201024X768%205364%20Sexy%20Wallpaper.j pg

hbcat
December 7th, 2009, 03:59 AM
I didn't know that. I guess I meant to imply that one wouldn't expect to see a thong on the beach at Tynemouth. That water is really cold!


http://www.nsvl.org.uk/album/beachpanorama/kingedwardsbaypanorama_large.jpg

P.S. This is one of my favorite little spots in the whole world, by the way.

Codex
December 7th, 2009, 04:20 AM
I didn't know that. I guess I meant to imply that one wouldn't expect to see a thong on the beach at Tynemouth. That water is really cold!

P.S. This is one of my favorite little spots in the whole world, by the way.

It's even nicer further up the Northumberland Coast at Bamburgh - Although you are right, it is a wee bit cold especially in winter. :D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2062/2255161033_93f298b160_b.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/3048548.jpg

Nearby to Bamburgh on the Northumberland Coast is Lindisfarne Castle on Holy Island. Lindisfarne Priory on Holy Island being where the Lindisfarne Gospels were written by St Cuthbert.

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/images/various/lindisfarne%20gospels.gif

http://zurkow.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/stcuthbert.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2139/2324376967_9e8817924a_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/2849269280_68270e9826_b.jpg

Codex
December 7th, 2009, 04:26 AM
Lindisfarne Gospels Site - British Library

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/lindisfarne.html

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/ttpbooks.html

http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/public/editable/themes/lifelong-learning/images/gospels.jpg

londonlawyer
December 7th, 2009, 11:25 AM
Cheryl Cole is from Tyneside :D



Great photos, Codex. I spotted some camel toe in the last one.

Codex
December 7th, 2009, 01:25 PM
great photos, codex. I spotted some camel toe in the last one.


The last Donna Air pic has a good deal of Camel Toe :D

londonlawyer
December 7th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Agreed. I love camel toe.

Ninjahedge
December 10th, 2009, 02:54 PM
*cough*NY*cough*

hbcat
December 11th, 2009, 10:07 AM
*cough*NY*cough*

Ninja --

How about: "The intense interest in camel toe by members of WNY forum proves that New York has not lost its edge."

Or: "The fact that this thread has degenerated into a puerile interest by certain WNY forum members in female genitalia proves that New York has lost its edge."

Either way, we're back on topic, eh? :D

hb

Ninjahedge
December 11th, 2009, 11:48 AM
Libido? No.

Edge, I don't know.