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Codex
December 5th, 2009, 05:31 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/includes/blq/resources/gvl/r60/img/header_blocks.gif (http://www.bbc.co.uk/)

American student Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend have been found guilty by an Italian court of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46861000/jpg/_46861155_knoxx.jpg
Knox was heard loudly sobbing as she was led out of court

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8394750.stm

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 05:36 AM
26 years is quite a sentence. :eek:

Her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito was given 25 years

http://www.divaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/amanda-knox.jpg

infoshare
December 5th, 2009, 08:51 AM
A travesty of justice, a sham; more in that vein in these articles. Unbelievably absurd: especially given the facts in connection with the type/quantity of DNA evidence found at the crime scene.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412793_knox01.html?source=mypi

http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/

excerpt:
The trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito has ended the way it began, as a sad joke at the expense of everyone who cares about justice. Let's go back and summarize the main points of the crime for which Amanda and Raffaele have now been convicted. The story, per Mignini, runs like this:

Seething with resentment over household chores, Amanda recruited two love-sick puppies to restrain Meredith and plunged a huge kitchen knife into her neck, causing her death. Puppy number one ran away leaving a great deal of physical evidence at the crime scene; puppy number two stayed with Amanda to clean the place up and therefore left almost no physical evidence.

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 09:15 AM
I'd love to nail Amanda Knox.

Fabrizio
December 5th, 2009, 09:15 AM
^ if you want a balanced take on this, those are not the best sources.

It's a complex story. The NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html?ref=global-home

Newsweek:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/206765

CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/20/amanda.knox.trial.arguments/index.html

Codex
December 5th, 2009, 09:22 AM
I'd love to nail Amanda Knox.

You're one sick puppy. :eek:

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 09:26 AM
I know! :D

Fabrizio
December 5th, 2009, 09:54 AM
Another sober, well informed article that tries for balance:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/216903

infoshare
December 5th, 2009, 10:24 AM
V My main contention here has, as stated in my first post, has to do with the particular standards of evidence required in a criminal trial: ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ – that is a heavy burdon that the prosecution failed to meet.

There was no physical evidence that linked Amanda to the crime scene, she was found guilty purely on circumstantial evidence. "Psychosomatic observations" and/or "investigators instinctints" as they were stated be applied in the trial are valid, but not conclusive.

What was that line from the O.J. trial: “if the glove does not fit – you must acquit”.

She may be guilty, but from what little I know about jurisprudence there was no legal basis for the final verdict.

Pardon me, got to go now. Arsenal vs. Stoke City on right now: great game.

Cheers Mate!

londonlawyer
December 5th, 2009, 10:33 AM
....
Pardon me, got to go now. Arsenal vs. Stoke City on right now: great game.

Cheers Mate!

Are you English?

Fabrizio
December 5th, 2009, 10:33 AM
What was that line from the O.J. trial: “if the glove does not fit – you must acquit”.

Oh yes, the OJ trail... an excellent example of justice.

hbcat
December 5th, 2009, 10:37 AM
I'd love to nail Amanda Knox.

I usually get a kick out of your sexualized puns and posts, but not this time, sorry. This is about murder, destroyed lives, and a great deal of misery. Save it for another thread, and another story,s please.

infoshare
December 5th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Oh yes, the OJ trail... an excellent example of justice.

In the interest of having a "meaningful discussion", try to elaborate on the matter regarding the "standards of evidence" required in a criminal trial - and how you personally believe they were met in this case.

Sorry Fab: but with you it always comes down to - BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Back to Arsenal. :rolleyes:

Fabrizio
December 5th, 2009, 11:04 AM
"Sorry Fab: but with you it always comes down to - BLAH BLAH BLAH."

And with you it always comes down to personal attacks... which no one else has done here but you.

"In the interest of having a "meaningful discussion"" indeed.

And you are a moderator?

---

You want a meaningful discussion about the trail and I post articles from the NYTimes and Newsweek about the case in articles that try to present both sides of the story. Meanwhile you post stuff from a blog with the title:

"A BLOG LOOKING AT THE RIDICULOUS CASE IN ITALY AGAINST TWO INNOCENT SUSPECTS: AMANDA KNOX AND RAFFAELE SOLLECITO"

Case closed.

---

ablarc
December 5th, 2009, 11:48 AM
The case does seem half-baked, Fabrizio.

26 years is a lot of time to serve if it's undeserved, and both sides seem to have pretty definitively dropped the ball.

Can a mistrial be declared in Italy?




PS They sure make a nice-looking couple. Might that have counted against them?

Fabrizio
December 5th, 2009, 11:51 AM
If you notice I have not taken sides on this issue.

Read the thread.

lofter1
December 5th, 2009, 01:58 PM
From what I understand, a mistrial -- which usually pertains only to improper acts / judicial orders within the court room or jury room -- would have to be declared during the course of the trial. Since the trial is now over it would seem that's not an option.

However, as stated in the NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html?_r=1&ref=global-home):


In Italy, it is common for sentences to be reduced in two potential rounds of appeals.

ablarc
December 5th, 2009, 05:02 PM
Maybe it was wearing that green coat in court ?


Definitely a mistake.

lofter1
December 5th, 2009, 09:58 PM
This should raise una piuma del collo -- o due ...

An American in the Italian Wheels of Justice

NY TIMES (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/an-american-in-the-italian-wheels-of-justice/?hp)
By LIZ ROBBINS
December 5, 2009

The trial took nearly a year. But now that an Italian jury has determined that Amanda Knox (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/amanda_knox/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=Amanda%20Knox&st=cse), a 22-year-old American student, is guilty of murdering her British housemate in Perugia, Italy, in 2007, the legal wrangling has in some ways just begun.

The verdict (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html) was delivered at the unusual hour of midnight local time, with little explanation but a sentence. From that odd timing that capped a drawn-out trial, to the circumstantial evidence introduced, to the jury — made up of two judges and six civilians — that was not sequestered, the proceedings were so distinct from the American justice system. And so confounding to some.

“It’s a strange case to American ears,” said Alan M. Dershowitz (http://www.alandershowitz.com/), a prominent criminal defense attorney and Harvard University law professor.

And yet, Mr. Dershowitz called the verdict “totally predictable,” saying that the trial was just a “confirmation of the investigation.”

He added: “This is not the end of the line.”

Ms. Knox and her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 25, had been accused of slitting the throat of Ms. Knox’s housemate, Meredith Kercher, 21, of Surrey, England, in November 2007 after a scuffle escalated into their coercing her into a sexual game. Ms. Knox was sentenced to 26 years in prison, and Mr. Sollecito, 25 years. They were tried together. Ms. Knox was also convicted of defamation, as she originally accused her boss (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/world/europe/13italy.html), Patrick Lumumba, of the crime before changing her story.

In an earlier trial, a third defendant, Rudy Guede, 22, was sentenced to 30 years for sexual assault and murder, as the judge ruled that he was one of three assailants.

The case, played out in the international media, provoked polarized reactions throughout Italy. But throughout this trial peppered with such unlikely antics by Ms. Knox as cartwheels and grins, her parents complained that the anti-American sentiment was palpable. They claimed the prosecution’s attacks on their daughter’s character were appalling and irrelevant, and based on evidence that was circumstantial. Not surprisingly, they said they would appeal the verdict (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/europe/06perugia.html?_r=1&hp).

Defense lawyers insisted that prosecutors failed to provide a motive for why Ms. Knox would murder Ms. Kercher.

One leading scholar on international law said that in the context of Italy’s complicated judicial system, and its stark differences with the legal process in the United States, this case could have important international ramifications.

“I think this is a scandal of the first order,” said George P. Fletcher (http://www.law.columbia.edu/fac/George_Fletcher), Columbia University’s Cardozo professor of jurisprudence. “I don’t think this is an expression of anti-Americanism.”

Rather, Professor Fletcher said, this verdict came about because the Italian judicial system has not “adapted correctly” the American judicial system.

“We are the only country in the world that has a real jury system,” Mr. Dershowitz said.

In Italian criminal cases, the jury includes two professional judges, one of whom is the presiding judge in the case. “Many of the European countries have this mixture,” Mr. Dershowitz said. “In general, the lay jurors don’t have as much lay influence as the professional judges.”

Also, the jury is not sequestered until deliberations, opening them to the inflated media coverage of a trial. And in the case of Ms. Knox, there seemed to be leeway about how much inflammatory prejudicial evidence was allowed.

Prosecutors linked Ms. Knox to the murder with forensic evidence that included a D.N.A. sample that was found on the handle of a kitchen knife, although one that was wiped clean and, according to defense attorneys, not the same size as Ms. Kercher’s wounds. In their concluding arguments, the prosecution showed an animated version (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/business/media/06animate.html?hp) of how they believe the crime was committed.

And in a sharp departure from American jurisprudence, the prosecutors portrayed Ms. Knox as promiscuous and wanton.

“In the United States, character evidence does not come to play in the trial unless the defendant puts it in play,” Mr. Fletcher said. “The prosecution can’t come into court and say my guy is a bad guy. In this case, even if there a sexual motive, so what if, say, she had a dozen boyfriends? That is not relevant here.”

For his part, Mr. Dershowitz explained in a telephone interview, there is at least one difference between the Italian and the American system that could actually work in Ms. Knox’s favor. “The best chance of getting a fair assessment comes at the appellate stage,” he said, explaining that trial is “more probing.”

As Rachel Donadio writes in The Times:


Unlike in the American system, where appeals center on issues of law, not fact, in the Italian system, defendants can ask to retry the entire case from scratch in the first round of appeals.
This is known as a de novo review.

“The chance of getting a reasonable review of the case is fairly high,” Mr. Dershowitz said. “It is a highly circumstantial case. Everybody has to at least acknowledge that there is a plausible claim of innocence.”

Prosecutors had argued for a life sentence for Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito.

“Life sentences are usually reserved for hitmen and mafia murders,” Mr. Dershowitz said. “In Italy at least, the sentence reflects a division. It could be that there are some doubts.”

Moreover, in Italy a jury does not need to be unanimous but only needs a majority to convict on murder. The entire jury deliberates on the verdict, while the judge decides the sentence and awards the damages. How the jury in this case voted has not yet been released, nor has a longer explanation of the verdict. That could take up to 90 days.

In another departure from American law, in addition to the verdict and sentence, Ms. Knox was ordered to pay punitive damages to the Kercher family — about $4.24 million (2.8 million euros) — which happens in the United States only in a civil trial. But those damages are still pending a separate civil trial.

“I think we have to have the courage to condemn this proceeding because we do not want international courts paying attention to this kind of interaction between the common law and the civil law systems,” Mr. Fletcher said.

Ms. Donadio described the Italian court proceedings as “Kafka-esque (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/04/world/europe/04italy.html?scp=4&sq=Amanda%20Knox&st=cse).”

Or as Mr. Dershowitz acknowledged, the Italian legal system “is not among Europe’s most distinguished.”

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 04:59 AM
What is funny about this is that I pointed out over and over again in the Berlusconi thread that our justice system, our courts and our judges are beyond screwy. Luca mentioned the same. But we were derided. We even had Midtown posting articles by no-nothing American journalists claiming that the judiciary is the most trusted branch of government in Italy.

I tried to explain otherwise.

The above article also does not mention the importance of the press here in influencing outcomes and our activist journalists.

I also think the article too readily pushes aside anti-Americanism. Our courts (again I mentioned a million times in the Berlusconi thread) are highly politicized. And the Italian left despices the US... so I can just imagine the thrill of being able to send an American to jail.

And in Italy, if you are charged with something, you are guilty until proven innocent.

BUT: I also don't want to give the impression that our courts are particularly harsh... actually in most cases they are probably the most lenient in the world. (Luca also mentioned this).

Be that as it may: IMHO Amanda Fox is guilty. She may not have been the one who actually killed the girl, but IMHO she was involved in the murder. The evidence in the case points to that without a doubt.

And while our system is disfunctional and we have Americans pointing fingers and calling ours “Kafka-esque”, let's remember that just last week a retarded man with an IQ of 68 was executed by the State of Texas. But since it is unlawful to execute a retarded person, the Texas court decided to revert to a childhood IQ score of 86 as a basis to reject an appeal. A scandal. And the man was executed by lethal injection.

But while all Americans know of the trial of this pretty white girl in Italy, there is ZERO interest in this Texas story.

Why is that?

--

hbcat
December 6th, 2009, 07:23 AM
Fabrizio --

What are prison conditions like in Italy? Not that you would have any first-hand encounters (I would hope not anyway :eek:), but on the whole do you think the prison system (aside from the judiciary, which you characterize as screwy) is fairly humane? Compared to the US? The rest of the EU?

Just curious.

Codex
December 6th, 2009, 07:33 AM
Capanne Prison - where Amanda Knox is being held.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C194/

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugia/frontpage/1077.jpg

I suppose depending on future circumstances and appeals, there is always the possibility of the Americans negotiating with the Italians in order that Knox be moved to a prison in the US to serve her sentence.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 07:45 AM
What are prison conditions like in Italy?
I imagine not good... for women it might be different though. I don't know.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 09:42 AM
In today's Times of London:

The Kercher trial: Amanda Knox snared by her lust and her lies

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6945967.ece

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 11:48 AM
...I pointed out over and over again in the Berlusconi thread that our justice system, our courts and our judges are beyond screwy. Luca mentioned the same...The above article also does not mention the importance of the press here in influencing outcomes and our activist journalists.

I also think the article too readily pushes aside anti-Americanism. Our courts (again I mentioned a million times in the Berlusconi thread) are highly politicized. And the Italian left despises the US... so I can just imagine the thrill of being able to send an American to jail.

And in Italy, if you are charged with something, you are guilty until proven innocent.
And Fabrizio, in such a dysfunctional system, what would you say if you found yourself accused tomorrow of something you hadn't done?

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 11:55 AM
How would anyone feel? What's your point?

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 11:58 AM
^ Harsh. (And now an edited post.)

.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Yup. Mentioning me was totally unnecessary to make his point.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Ablarc: perhaps I'm missing something. You asked "in such a dysfunctional system, what would you say if you found yourself accused tomorrow of something you hadn't done?" Well, what would anyone say? This stinks? It's terrible? Honestly: I don't understand your point... and I'm simply asking for clarification.

If for some reason you see that as a harsh reply (post #26) ... then I truly apologise. But you'll have to excuse me for not getting it. I don't know how else to answer your question.

Alonzo-ny
December 6th, 2009, 12:13 PM
Ablarc's reply was to a post that has since been deleted.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 12:16 PM
We even had Midtown posting articles by no-nothing American journalists claiming that... Fabrizio: Make no mention of me. It is totally unnecessary to make your point. Let's keep the peace.

londonlawyer
December 6th, 2009, 12:29 PM
The other part of this is that the US is very much anti-Italian and likes to deride Italy.

If this verdict occurred in Germany, Britain or Israel, for example, the US press would accept it.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 12:36 PM
The other part of this is that the US is very much anti-Italian and likes to deride Italy.

True. (Although there is also a very knowlegable and sophisticated group of Americans that find Italy's culture and way-of-life superior in many ways.)

And notice too, that the European press has not come out in favour of Knox.

-----

My point is that every country and culture is different and in Italy's case sometimes vastly different.

Just from that article posted: “It’s a strange case to American ears” , "in the context of Italy’s complicated judicial system, and its stark differences with the legal process in the United States", "in a sharp departure from American jurisprudence", "“In the United States, character evidence does not come to play in the trial unless the defendant puts it in play,” Mr. Fletcher said. .... The prosecution can’t come into court and say my guy is a bad guy....". "In another departure from American law..."

Also I can't tell enough how important behavior is here. I can't believe no one told this girl that she was acting like an idiot in court ... passing out chocolates, putting her head down sleeping, cart-wheels at the police station... my God girl...in Italy that alone would be enough to sway a judge.

--

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 12:52 PM
If for some reason you see that as a harsh reply (post #26) ... then I truly apologise. But you'll have to excuse me for not getting it. I don't know how else to answer your question.


Ablarc's reply was to a post that has since been deleted.
Yeah, Fabrizio, I was actually defending you. You got thoroughly cussed out by your nemesis (you-know-who); he even included the f-word. Alonzo apparently deleted it, and the rest of the post as well.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Inadvertent.



Btw, of course I know what you'd think if you got accused of something you didn't do! It's just that it seems that lamentable situation is more possible in Italy, under the rules.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 01:10 PM
I really don't know.

It's a very strange situation here... very mixed. Lot's of little things: I don't know about the US but here you can be stopped on the street and be asked for ID and questioned for no reason. Your car can be stopped and searched as a matter of course. Judges have an incredible amount of power. You are considered quilty until proven innocent. Trials take for ever and ever. It's a mess.

But then again: it would be interesting to compare our incarceration rates with yours. I'll bet ours are a fraction....

Ebryan
December 6th, 2009, 01:13 PM
The other part of this is that the US is very much anti-Italian and likes to deride Italy.

If this verdict occurred in Germany, Britain or Israel, for example, the US press would accept it.

This is circumstantial at best since most Americans have a romantic fascination with Italy. It is a country glorified in US classrooms from an early age for it's history of art and architecture, it's Roman roots, and it's cultural leanings in food and leisure. The same cannot be said about Germany or Britain.

Still, it's hard to look past the anti-American sentiment that perverted the Italian media and public on this trial.

lofter1
December 6th, 2009, 01:36 PM
The silly girl couldn't keep her stories straight.

Short term memory loss? That hash-laced pot can be powerful.

Plus, her accusation against her boss (hmmm, blame the black guy defense?) really puts her in a bad light. Once she played that angle everything about her seems dicey. Couple that with the lies about the cell phones (which seems to have been constructed to create an alibi for her and the Italian boyfriend) any jury would consider her testimony to be untrustworthy.

And why the singular outrage at the verdict against Ms. Knox? What about concern for the Italian boyfriend, who by most accounts was with with the young lady during the entire time when Ms. Kercher was being killed, and who was also found guilty. If Amanda is innocent then so is he, right?

Only the pretty white girl gets the attention of the media.

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 01:39 PM
...most Americans have a romantic fascination with Italy. It is a country glorified in US classrooms from an early age for it's history of art and architecture, its Roman roots, and its cultural leanings in food and leisure.
Actually, don't most Americans think Italians are cosa nostra?

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 01:44 PM
And why the singular outrage at the verdict against Ms. Knox?
American media.


What about concern for the Italian boyfriend, who by most accounts was with with the young lady during the entire time when Ms. Kercher was being killed, and who was also found guilty. If Amanda is innocent then so is he, right?

Only the pretty white girl gets the attention of the media.
Italian boyfriend's white too, right?

(And actually, he's as pretty as she is.)

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 02:20 PM
Rafaelle Sollecito does make for a good photograph:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/008sollecito2_228x354.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/RaffaeleSollecitoAP_468x346.jpg

And like most Italian men, he knows how to tie a scarf.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/Suspects_Raffaele_Sollecito_and_Ama.jpg

They both have an intense Franco Zeffirelli thing going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LOfgaSvKz8

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 02:26 PM
^ They should let them out and put them in a movie.

It would make millions.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 02:31 PM
The silly girl couldn't keep her stories straight.

Short term memory loss? That hash-laced pot can be powerful.


Of course it looks suspicious that Knox didn't keep her stories straight, but the evidence against her is...where?
First she says she was at her boyfriend's, then she was in the house hearing the screams...she looks guilty at this point, but then I say to myself, the motive is...what?

I don't buy for one second the whole drug-crazed attack, or some satanic ritual angle...smoking hash and pot wouldn't lead to a mental state that facilitates murdering someone in cold blood, or sexually attacking them. It would more likely chill you out a bit from whatever anger you had been feeling.

I read that one of the elements of the prosecution's case was Knox's lack of emotion after the discovery of the body but even that wasn't really sustained by any evidence.


Plus, her accusation against her boss (hmmm, blame the black guy defense?) really puts her in a bad light. Once she played that angle everything about her seems dicey. Couple that with the lies about the cell phones (which seems to have been constructed to create an alibi for her and the Italian boyfriend) any jury would consider her testimony to be untrustworthy.

I agree that is very suspicious but there is something very important to remember: no evidence at all was produced to prove Knox had been in the room where Kercher's body was found. Not a single fingerprint or piece of forensic evidence was found in the room from either Knox or her boyfriend.
But Rudy Guede's fingerprints were all over Kercher's room. Maybe I do not have all the facts, I am new to this topic before today...how does the prosecution explain this?


..most Americans have a romantic fascination with Italy. It is a country glorified in US classrooms from an early age for it's history of art and architecture, its Roman roots, and its cultural leanings in food and leisure.


I agree with this. I think it's wrong to suggest there is some kind of anti-Italian attitude in the USA. In classrooms, but also everywhere else in America, we have a love of Italy and all things Italian. A simply HUGE amount of Americans trace some ancestry back to Italy so you have a lot of ethnic Italian pride everywhere. A universally praised cuisine, high culture like opera, fashion, etc.
There are really more things in American media about Italy that are positive I think, than negative.
The cosa nostra thing is from a distant time...Americans today see Italy in terms of fashion, art, history, etc.

This case, however, does put the Italian judicial system in a very negative light. Mind you, that's not to say things about the American system are much better.


Italian boyfriend's white too, right?

He's very pasty white, but I don't think very good looking at all. Just sayin'


^ Harsh. (And now an edited post.)


I removed the F-bomb very soon after I posted it. ;) The rest was basically asked for. And thanks for your moderation, but we have quite enough of that around here.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 02:45 PM
...no evidence at all was produced to prove Knox had been in the room where Kercher's body was found. Not a single fingerprint or piece of forensic evidence was found in the room from either Knox or her boyfriend.


There is plenty of evidence. But one must decide if it is credible or not. I believe, as do most here, that the evidence is credible. From Newsweek:

"Even if Kercher had been murdered in Philadelphia instead of Perugia, in reality little would likely turn out differently. The evidence may even get more scrutiny in Italy. So far, 10 judges have reviewed the prosecution's case over the last year. All 10 have agreed that there is enough credible evidence to keep moving forward based solely on the merit of the forensics".

"Neither suspect has a credible alibi for the night of the murder, and both told a variety of lies about that night. No one has confessed to the murder, and Guede's testimony this weekend is not expected to shed any light on what really happened. Still, the prosecution maintains that it has enough to convict both Knox and Sollecito. Among the most damning evidence against Sollecito is his DNA on the metal clasp of the bra that was cut from Kercher after she died. Maresca also points out that credible witnesses have shattered Sollecito's alibi for the night of the murder. Sollecito says he was home that night working on his computer, but specialists have testified that his computer was dormant for an eight-hour period the night of Kercher's murder. Sollecito's attorneys contend that their client lied out of confusion and fear".

"Key forensic evidence against Knox includes her footprint in blood in the hallway outside Kercher's room. There are also mixed traces of Knox's DNA and Kercher's blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared. And a knife was found in Sollecito's apartment with Knox's DNA on the handle and what the prosecution believes is Kercher's DNA in a groove on the blade. None of these pieces have been thrown out of the 10,000-page dossier of evidence against the two. All will be presented to the jury for their consideration. Defense attorneys for Knox, who at one time admitted to being at home when the murder took place, dismiss the forensic evidence as unreliable."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/192370/page/2

Re: DNA... people forget that DNA evidence is a new science, not very long ago murder cases were put together without such evidence... the lies, the false alibis... accusing some one else... they would all be enough to add up to an involvement of this.

--

Ebryan
December 6th, 2009, 02:58 PM
Actually, don't most Americans think Italians are cosa nostra?

A romanticized notion nonetheless--the glorified mafias on the US continent have always been the Italian ones (no need to even bring in the cinematic references here, it's obvious). Even if the Chinese, Russian, and Mexican incarnations hold a true seat of power, Americans have long fascinated about the inner workings of the Italian household.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 02:59 PM
Like I said, no evidence at all was produced to prove Knox had been in the room where Kercher's body was found. Not a single fingerprint or piece of forensic evidence was found in the room from either Knox or her boyfriend.

A post about hallways and bathroom fixtures doesn't dispute the fact.



Key forensic evidence against Knox includes her footprint in blood in the hallway outside Kercher's room. There are also mixed traces of Knox's DNA and Kercher's blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared.


What? Do I have to address that? Like a shared bathroom wouldn't have DNA from Knox? What about the room where the body was actually found?
Yeah.

Nothing in the Newsweek article contradicts my statement. The bathroom and hallway? naturally they contain Knox's traces. She lived there.:rolleyes:

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 03:04 PM
Of course it looks suspicious that Knox didn't keep her stories straight, but the evidence against her is...where?
First she says she was at her boyfriend's, then she was in the house hearing the screams...she looks guilty at this point, but then I say to myself, the motive is...what?

I don't buy for one second the whole drug-crazed attack, or some satanic ritual angle...smoking hash and pot wouldn't lead to a mental state that facilitates murdering someone in cold blood, or sexually attacking them. It would more likely chill you out a bit from whatever anger you had been feeling.
Anecdotally, and from personal experience, I'd agree. But what do you know about the extremes of human experience?


]...there is something very important to remember: no evidence at all was produced to prove Knox had been in the room where Kercher's body was found. Not a single fingerprint or piece of forensic evidence was found in the room from either Knox or her boyfriend.

But Rudy Guede's fingerprints were all over Kercher's room.
Conclusion?


I removed the F-bomb very soon after I posted it. ;) The rest was basically asked for. And thanks for your moderation, but we have quite enough of that around here.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be the surrogate moderator. But I did see the f-bomb, and I did see it removed.


I regard both you and Fabrizio as my valuable friends, and I'd like to see y'all make up. Can you do that? :)

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 03:14 PM
Anecdotally, and from personal experience, I'd agree. But what do you know about the extremes of human experience?

I just know the psychotropic effects of marijuana and hash tend to dull violent impulses. It doesn't make sense to me that these drugs would make the cause of the murder more understandable in any way.


Conclusion?


How did they supposedly wipe the scene of their invisible traces but left the invisible DNA traces of Guede?


I regard both you and Fabrizio as my valuable friends, and I'd like to see y'all make up. Can you do that?

Actually, I would hope so. Lots of things have been said, by both parties, but I am a peaceful person at heart.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Uh... Midtown... I wrote the following: "There is plenty of evidence. But one must decide if it is credible or not. I believe, as do most here, that the evidence is credible." I mention nothing about the room.

Along with what is mentioned in that article, Knox's DNA was found on the knife, on a sponge, on a wash cloth etc. Room or not, IMHO that would at least link her to the murder. But note: from the beginning here I say: "IMHO".

I believe that KNox was at least involved in a cover-up which would make her an accomplice. A 25 year sentence for that is not out of the ordinary. The trail gets 2 appeals. And Italy is known for shortened sentances.

BTW: if she "had no motive for the killing".... what was her motive for blaming her boss?

Re: Drugs... for what it's worth the drugs of choice here are extasy and cocaine (because that's were the money is )... I doubt the hash story. If it were drugs it would be those 2.

--

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 03:40 PM
^ A truly knowledgable drug accounting by an obvious aficionado. And probably true, since abstainers know nothing. Ever.

But what can you tell us about her innocence or guilt?

And what can you tell MidtownGuy to make up?

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 03:56 PM
LOL.

Extasy and cocaine for me? Never. Not in a million years. Good wine ...yes.

--

IMHO Guilty.

But you know what? Honestly? Her behavior with the police and the in courtroom did her in. Her mother and sisters posing for a woman's magazine in front of the house where the murder happened. It just went on and on. Incredibly arrogant people with entitlement issues... I think it tipped the scales. I know... I know... it's not supposed to be that way... but clowning around under these circumstances is going to count for a lot over here.

"Italian courts are respectable institutions where rules of decorum are strictly followed. But Knox behaved boorishly throughout the trial, and the jury will have noticed. She enters the courtroom like a beauty queen, pandering to the cameras and sometimes answering journalists' questions with a coy smile. She also wore a "Let It Be" T shirt on Valentine's Day, and has been spotted passing around chocolates, winking at Sollecito, and laying her head down on the defense table. The Italian press has had a ball with Knox's courtroom antics (and those of her family). The jury is not sequestered, and the members are free to read about the case, which means they will certainly have been exposed to rampant criticism of her conduct."

This is a good article:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/216903

--

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 04:10 PM
Her mother and sisters posing for a woman's magazine in front of the house where the murder happened.

I'd be curious to see how that was done, is there a link to the photos? Were they gloating or something?


Knox's DNA was found on the knife, on a sponge, on a wash cloth etc. Room or not, IMHO that would at least link her to the murder.

Why? Wouldn't she make use of those items if she lived there?


Incredibly arrogant people with entitlement issues... I think it tipped the scales.

I have not seen evidence of this myself but if that's how they were portrayed in the Italian media I wouldn't be at all surprised. The Italian media is like the American media...the Jerry Springer-style version of reality.

ablarc
December 6th, 2009, 04:26 PM
So, whaddya think, MidtownGuy? Is she innocent or guilty?

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 04:31 PM
It doesn't matter how the sisters in front of the crime scene publicity shot was done: it's a culture issue. This is not the US.

If I am in the US I must understand that it is not Italy: it has different standards of what is appropriate and what is not. In the US I am on guard about many things that in Italy I would not be.

Her behavior was reported by the Italian press, the British press, etc....below is Newsweek's take. Bottom line: in THIS culture under these circumstances it's a big no-no. A judge and jury will judge this stuff differently here... and they will judge it harshly:

Amanda Knox is a 22-year-old on trial for murder in Italy. Her defense—and her family—isn't helping.

"There should be a basic set of rules when on trial for murder: Don't antagonize the prosecutor and judge. Dress appropriately in court. Don't let your family pose for photos in front of the crime scene. These basic tenets have somehow escaped Amanda Knox, the 22-year-old Seattle native whose trial for sexually assaulting and murdering her British roommate resumes on Friday."

You must also understand how the murder victim's family saw such arrogant behavior. It was incredibly disrespectful toward them. Their daughter was murdered in that house.

More:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/206765

--

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 04:55 PM
Oh BTW you all might be interested to know about the case of Italian citizen Silvia Baraldini. Have any of you ever heard of her?

Maybe those Italian judges are getting their revenge:


After Prison in U.S., Woman Is Praised in Rome
Published: Thursday, August 26, 1999

Silvia Baraldini, the Italian woman imprisoned for nearly 17 years in the United States for a string of armored car holdups and links to a black militant group, was given a hero's welcome in Rome yesterday. Supporters tossed roses before the motorcade that carried Ms. Baraldini, 51, to an Italian prison to finish her sentence.

Italy's leftist government sent a private jet* to pick Ms. Baraldini up following her release earlier in the day from a Federal prison in Danbury, Conn. Several Italian cities and towns have offered Ms. Baraldini honorary citizenship**, calling her a victim of American injustice. The conservative opposition was not as welcoming. ''Couldn't she have taken a regular commercial flight?'' snapped Giuseppe Brienza, a member of the opposition Christian Democrat Center.

Ms. Baraldini was convicted in a series of robberies and attempted robberies in the United States, including a 1981 holdup of a Brinks truck near Nyack, N.Y., in which a guard and two police officers were killed. She was also found guilty of involvement in a second armored car robbery, in Danbury, Conn., and of helping a former member of a black militant group who was convicted of killing a New Jersey State Police trooper, escape from prison. In all of the cases, Ms. Baraldini was never convicted of carrying out a violent act herself.

She was sentenced to 43 years in prison.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/26/nyregion/after-prison-in-us-woman-is-praised-in-rome.html

* I love this country.

** In other words: Vai a fare in culo Amerikani...

--

more about the case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvia_Baraldini

--

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 05:01 PM
It doesn't matter how the sisters in front of the crime scene publicity shot was done: it's a culture issue. This is not the US.

Don't let your family pose for photos in front of the crime scene.
We know it isn't the US, but I was trying to figure out what was wrong with the way the photos were done. Just saying "it aint the US" doesn't cut it.

If you are saying that in Italy people do not take pictures at crime scenes ...well, OK. But a woman is defending her freedom in the middle of an Italian shit storm. I think reasonable people, no matter in Italy or America, would understand the necessity of countering bad publicity. Photos or not. That isn't a reason to damn her. If, as we are told, the Italian press was having a field day with this young woman, I would expect some kind of counter publicity showing her as a human being and not the archetypical American Floozey on Drugs. It's reasonable.
So, you are not saying the photos were done in a tasteless manner, just that they should never have done them at all. Fine. So what. It doesn't change the actual evidence.



So, whaddya think, MidtownGuy? Is she innocent or guilty?

I know it's a cop out but I just can't say. I can say that the evidence that has been presented should not be enough to convict her.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 05:02 PM
You must also understand how the murder victim's family saw such arrogant behavior. It was incredibly disrespectful toward them. Their daughter was murdered in that house.
This is just emotional string pulling. A murder case should stick to the evidence.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 05:51 PM
^ Yes we know that.

But in the meantime... just some advice... if you are being tried for the murder of your room-mate in Italy, don't let your mom and sisters pose for a woman's magazine in front of the home where she was murdered. It will make things worse for you. In the US the jury is sequestered... in Italy it is not. A member of the jury might come across Gente Magazine at the hair-dressers and they'll get pissed. Just letting you know. If that sounds unreasonable to you... if you feel that those photo will act as some kind of counter publicity showing you as a human being... or what ever... well...uh... okey-dokey...but don't say I didn't warn you.

---

And while we are at it: let's read up on fellow Tuscan Carlo Parlanti who is still held in a California prison... for absolutely nothing:

http://www.fairtrials.net/cases/spotlight/carlo_parlanti/

--

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 06:03 PM
if you are being tried for the murder of your room-mate in Italy, don't let your mom and sisters pose for a woman's magazine in front of the home where she was murdered.a woman's magazine even...woooo



And while we are at it: let's read up on fellow Tuscan Carlo Parlanti who is still held in a California prison... for absolutely nothing:Why?

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 06:38 PM
"...a woman's magazine even...woooo"

You are making my point. It's different culture. The photos by the way were also harshly criticized in Britain as well. Is the criticizm silly? Beside the point? You be the judge. But in the meantime... some advice: I wouldn't do it here.

Just trying to be helpful.

---

Why Parlanti? Why Balaradini? Just so you all know.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 07:01 PM
Just so we know?
Should I post something about Leonard Peltier here too? baseball statistics?

Tell us why we should be examining someone named Parlanti. The article you link to is rather long so perhaps you could save the forum some time and tell us exactly what is the relevance. Is his case similar somehow? Does it shed light on the case of Amanda Knox? Or is it just to say again, American justice sucks too? Because we know.

Oh wait... this is another thread that touches Italy:eek: Never mind. I will wait for the links to the Mexican border and OJ trial.

MidtownGuy
December 6th, 2009, 07:06 PM
"...a woman's magazine even...woooo"

You are making my point. It's different culture.That's the only point? How edifying!

My point was who cares what kind of magazine it is, and so what if the pictures were taken. You made too much of them.

Fabrizio
December 6th, 2009, 07:41 PM
^ Uh ....noooooo.... most likely, the Italian court made too much of them.

(he still doesn't get it.)

---


Just so we know?
Should I post something about Leonard Peltier here too? baseball statistics?


Lofter posts an article that at one point questions if anti-Amercanism played a role in this case. (Maria Cantewell and others feel it has BTW).

To that I posted:

"I ... think the article too readily pushes aside anti-Americanism" ... "the Italian left despises the US... so I can just imagine the thrill of being able to send an American to jail."

Just to show that I am not talking out of my azz, I posted a couple of examples that could back up my statement adding: "Maybe those Italian judges are getting their revenge" and posted the artcle about Balardini.

Balardini upon her return to Italy, after getting a 43 year sentence at the hand of American judges, and serving 17, received a hero's welcome by the government and Italian people. Although Amercans know nothing about this case, it was huge here.

And perhaps shedding some light on how there could be resentment among a certain class in our judicial system, the Italian people and politicians with regard to the Amanda Knox case. I believe anti-Americanism could have played a part.... it's not a far-fetched idea and these two cases could be a basis for it.

Now Midtown, would you tell us again: why should I not have posted about Balardini and Parlanti? Thanks.

( Ablarc... it's tough)

--

lofter1
December 6th, 2009, 09:32 PM
... so what if the pictures were taken. You made too much of them.


It showed that they were clueless when it came to things Italian. The girl version of The Ugly American. Which also seems to be indicative of Amanda.

The sisters were wearing short shorts in the photo in front of the scene of the murder, which they also wore to the court house. Now to an American, who is now used to seeing college-aged girls wearing hoodies and flip flops to the White House, such casualness might seem totally in order. But in a country where shorts aren't advisable when entering a church as a tourist (it shows great disrespect) and women are advised to cover their hair (oy ... just like in those burka-loving countries) it creates an unsympathetic image.

"So what?" someone might say ... except that particular someone would not be the person who matters and who is viewing and judging the behavior.

IMO Knox was around when the murder took place. Which, as has been pointed out -- and since she chose to try and hide her involvement (however limited that might have been) -- makes her at the very least an accomplice.

Rule One: Lie to the cops and you're in deeper merda than ever.

Did Amanda do it? Did she stick the knife in? Ask Ms. Kercher. She knows.

Ebryan
December 6th, 2009, 11:17 PM
"...a woman's magazine even...woooo"

You are making my point. It's different culture. The photos by the way were also harshly criticized in Britain as well. Is the criticizm silly? Beside the point? You be the judge. But in the meantime... some advice: I wouldn't do it here.

Just trying to be helpful.

---

Why Parlanti? Why Balaradini? Just so you all know.

A fashion crime...punishable by 26 years in Italian prison.

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 12:09 AM
I'm sorry fabrizio,
this little play-by-play is cute, but misapplied:

Lofter posts an article that at one point questions if anti-Amercanism played a role in this case. (Maria Cantewell and others feel it has BTW).

To that I posted:

"I ... think the article too readily pushes aside anti-Americanism" ... "the Italian left despises the US... so I can just imagine the thrill of being able to send an American to jail."

Just to show that I am not talking out of my azz, I posted a couple of examples that could back up my statement adding: "Maybe those Italian judges are getting their revenge" and posted the artcle about Balardini. I never questioned you about Balardini. We understand anti-Americanism in Europe. You were mistaken to group my questions about Parlanti with the post on Balardini.

My question mentions Parlanti only, and asks for clarification:


Tell us why we should be examining someone named Parlanti. The article you link to is rather long so perhaps you could save the forum some time and tell us exactly what is the relevance. Is his case similar somehow? Does it shed light on the case of Amanda Knox? Or is it just to say again, American justice sucks too? Because we know.I think this is a fair, and civil, request for clarification. The link to Parlanti did indeed lead to an article which not all of us might have time to sit and read completely, so I respectfully asked for a brief summary and basically agreed that American justice is jacked up too... I was not trying to be confrontational with you. If you haven't the time to write a sentence or two about the article, just copy-paste the relevant part within your post.:)
It isn't like you prefaced it at all meaningfully. On the contrary...stuff like this:

And while we are at it: let's read up on fellow Tuscan Carlo Parlanti who is still held in a California prison... for absolutely nothing:followed by a link,
might be interpreted as less a desire to enlighten and more like a tit-for-tat kind of thing that we've seen so much...listen to the tone...it becomes tiresome and is more likely to dissuade a person from clicking the link than anything else.


Now Midtown, would you tell us again: why should I not have posted about Balardini and Parlanti? Thanks.Let me say it again to be absolutely clear. I was asking for a summary on the relevance of Parlanti. Nobody questioned about Balardini or doubted that anti-Americanism or revenge play their roles in these things.

Do you understand now?


( Ablarc... it's tough)Well, it doesn't have to be, if we can agree to stop putting words in each other's mouths, OK?

Can we both try harder to discern each other's true perspective? I would like that and things can be more peaceful.

Moving forward,

I think infoshare, ablarc, myself and others are less curious about this stuff, and more curious as to what exactly is the evidence that makes her guilty without a doubt in your appraisal:

The evidence in the case points to that without a doubt.
In the interest of having a "meaningful discussion", try to elaborate on the matter regarding the "standards of evidence" required in a criminal trial - and how you personally believe they were met in this case.I just don't think you have been able to do that. Lot's of stuff about different cultures and such, and we get that, we do,
but the hard evidence, DNA or otherwise, is very thin.

That's my position. Let's please both kill the unpleasantness...the "he just doesn't understand" stuff. It goes nowhere. You'd be surprised what people can understand when you talk to them instead of down at them.

Codex
December 7th, 2009, 02:47 AM
Rafaelle Sollecito does make for a good photograph:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/008sollecito2_228x354.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_01/HarryPotterL_468x456.jpg




:)

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 10:48 AM
That's my position. Let's please both kill the unpleasantness...the "he just doesn't understand" stuff. It goes nowhere. You'd be surprised what people can understand when you talk to them instead of down at them.


My posts on this thread have been, IMHO, perfectly on topic, proper and civil. I have no reason to change a word. The thread is here for all to read and come to their own conclusion about who is doing what etc. If you have a problem with my posts, please contact a moderator.

And BTW: The Parlanti article is short. Shorter than many full articles posted here. Cut the crap. Rather than giving us constant feed-back on your opinions of how I'm posting, contact a moderator and take it up with them.



---

Codex: the Harry Potter thing has been talked about in the press... infact it seems to be a reason why Amanda Knox was attracted to him. He's a doctors son, comes from a well-to-do southern Italian family.

--

Codex
December 7th, 2009, 10:58 AM
Codex: the Harry Potter thing has been talked about in the press... infact it seems to be a reason why Amanda Knox was attracted to him. He's a doctors son, comes from a well-to-do southern Italian family.

--

Yes, but is he worth £30 million ($45 million USD) like Harry (aka Daniel Radcliffe) :D

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/5224902/Harry-Potter-magic-puts-Daniel-Radcliffe-12th-on-young-Rich-List.html

Now that's real magic.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 11:07 AM
^ Nice link, but the article is too long. Would you please provide a brief summary?

Only joking... (but I don't know how else to deal with this nonesense.)


Thank you for the link... it is fascinating the weath that J.K.Rowling has created for many people besides herself. Yes, truly magic... and I imagine on her part, lots of hard work and talent.

infoshare
December 7th, 2009, 11:33 AM
I think infoshare, ablarc, myself and others are less curious about this stuff, and more curious as to what exactly is the evidence that makes her guilty without a doubt in your appraisal:
I just don't think you have been able to do that. Lot's of stuff about different cultures and such, and we get that, we do,
but the hard evidence, DNA or otherwise, is very thin.


I would just like to interject here with a side point if I may.

I think it is possible to raise this sort (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=307671&postcount=9) of “main contention” question; without the question itself becoming sort of a thread discussion party-pooper.

If as a debating tactic someone is attempting to the dodge the question by diverting the subject or otherwise dissembling the issue, that is another matter, but little in the way of any possible truth or cogency will emerge from the exchange. And, thus the reason for any diversionary tactic I suppose.

That being said, for an internet forum like this, its’ all good, at the end of the day there is plenty of useful knowledge that is gained from the exchange.

However, I would like to get back to the “main contention” question. Was there sufficient evidence to remove ‘any doubt’ in the mind of a reasonable person: I think not. This is a criminal case, 'clear & convincing' just does not cut it, even a 'preponderance of evidence' (as in civil cases) does not suffice. Everone had a basis for being CERTAIN of here guilt: I mean really - it seems I am stating the obvious here.

And, btw, in my opinion, attending a wiredny meetup and having a face-to-face discussion is a somewhat better way to go about this sort of thing. But, that mind you, is not my main contention here.

lofter1
December 7th, 2009, 11:58 AM
it's a big leap to say -- based on reading a few articles rather than sitting in the courtroom over many months, hearing testimony and viewing the accused in close proximity -- that a "reasonable person" would not have been able to hand down a conviction.

Removal of "any doubt" is not required. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the marker.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 12:09 PM
Some questions... correct me if I am wrong here:

From what I understand Amanda Knox in the US, based on the evidence given ( the lies, alibis etc) could have been found to be an accessory to the crime. And I think we can at least agree that Knox could have been an accessory. The idea is not far fetched.

(An accomplice must be proven to be at the scene of the crime when it happened an accessory, no.)

Under US law, wouldn't an accessory to a murder usually get a very tough sentence? Equal to, or tougher, than the 26 years that Knox got?

Also: under US law if you falsly accuse someone of murder in a case like this, as Knox did with her boss (note she did not retract her statements... her boss was found not quilty weeks later by investigators)... what kind of punishment would you get?

Any ideas?

---

legal definition of Accomplice:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice

Accessory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 12:36 PM
Rather than giving us constant feed-back on your opinions of how I'm posting, contact a moderator and take it up with them.

Now that's rich, coming from the person who said


We even had Midtown posting articles by no-nothing American journalists...

when I wasn't even involved in this thread!

Constant feedback indeed- coming out of your mouth.


You remember this important fact: If you hadn't called me out by name when I was not a part of the conversation, I would probably not be on this thread. If YOU hadn't first criticized what I was posting (on a whole other thread no less!), after more than a week of me just ignoring you, things might be different. Now you've summoned me here, so deal with it, and think twice next time you want to talk crap about somebody when they aren't even around. Got it?


Now, if you think:

And while we are at it: let's read up on fellow Tuscan Carlo Parlanti who is still held in a California prison... for absolutely nothing:

is a productive or inviting way to preface a link, a dollop of attitude instead of a meaningful intro like a brief summary or something, so be it.


And BTW: The Parlanti article is short....Cut the crap.

There is no "crap" to cut, except the distractions and tit-for-tat- links to unrelated stories that you post. Substitutes for simple questions other forum members ask you.

SO we are supposed to click on his link and start reading through all this:

"He met and moved in with a woman, Rebecca. Mr Parlanti entrusted Rebecca with full power of attorney over his assets. However after a few months, their relationship turned sour and at the beginning of June 2002, he asked her to look for her own flat. On 16 July Carlos saw her for the last time before leaving for a business trip to Michigan, and told her that he would expect her to have left the apartment upon his return in a week’s time. She moved out 3 days later. In early August 2002, Mr Parlanti returned to Italy to pursue better work opportunities..."

This chronological detailing of Parlanti's life goes on for 10 paragraphs, and rather than just telling us what is relevant there, we are supposed to wade through Parlanti's life details...the article itself has nothing toward the top which would tell us (people talking about the Knox case), why we should continue reading all of these details on the Parlanti case. You could have just told us what you were getting at, plain and simple. Is that really so hard to do? You write so much anyway, why is that such a put off for you? I think it is YOU that should "cut the crap".
---

Now, here are some things that don't seem right to me as far as the hearsay and circumstantial evidence:

When Natalie Hayward, a friend, said she hoped Kercher didn't suffer, Knox burst out: “What do you think? They cut her throat, Natalie. She f****** bled to death!”
This was believed by the prosecution to indicate guilt. I don't think so. I think it is a normal outburst for someone who just had a roomate murdered and someone says something as idiotic as " I hope she didn't suffer".

"Investigators were also struck by a gesture she made repeatedly in front of them over the next few days. “She’d press her hands to her temples and shake her head, as if she was trying to empty her brain of something she’d been through,” one of them recalled.

Why does this say guilty? In stressful situations people touch their temples. Maybe she had a headache for Christ's sake.

"The quilt, said the prosecution, was also a sign of Knox’s guilt: she could not stand the sight of Kercher’s wounded body, and had covered it in a gesture of female pity.
"
Total bull.

I agree with this:
"Professor David Canter, director of the centre for investigative psychology at Liverpool University, said Knox seemed to lack many of the typical hallmarks of sexually motivated murderers and as such she presented an unlikely offender profile."

Very unlikely. As I said, I can't be sure of her guilt or innocence, but the more you look at the things that supposedly pointed to guilt, they are really ridiculous. Touching her temples? Looking stressed?

What continues to bother me is her changing her stories and all of the shifting alibis.

This is one thing I thought was totally stupid: rolling out the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname as if to indicate a wanton nature, when it was a childhood soccer nickname. Like I said, sometimes Italy resembles one big Jerry Springer episode.

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 12:37 PM
Also: under US law if you falsly accuse someone of murder in a case like this, as Knox did with her boss (note she did not retract her statements... her boss was found not quilty weeks later by investigators)... what kind of punishment would you get?


Now THAT was a bitch thing to do. This is one of the pieces of information that really looks bad for her.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 12:59 PM
Attention moderators and other forum members: does post #57 in the context of what preceeded it and the link provided, merit all of the wind up above (posts #60, #65 #73)? If there is anything wrong with the post please let me know.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 01:19 PM
This is one thing I thought was totally stupid: rolling out the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname as if to indicate a wanton nature, when it was a childhood soccer nickname. Like I said, sometimes Italy resembles one big Jerry Springer episode.


The term Foxy Knoxy was never used by the Italian press.

The term does not even translate and means nothing in Italian. The word "Foxy" for a woman is an English expression. The British tabloid press (with it's pencent for alliteration and nick-names) used the term.

In Italy the most used term for Amanda Knox was: "la 'Amelie di Seattle"

--

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 01:19 PM
does post #57...

merit all of the wind upYou're ensuring that it continues when you say things like "cut the crap".
But you keep continuing it. YOU.
YOU are the one that summoned me here. Now deal with it.

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 01:24 PM
The term Foxy Knoxy was never used by the Italian press.

So what.

Again, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BELIEVE PUTS KNOX GUILTY WITHOUT A DOUBT, AS YOU SAID.

Your other stuff is a distraction.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 02:12 PM
Uh... ok... what ever you say....the Italian Press called her Foxy Knoxy.

Uh...is that better now?

As for: "Again, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BELIEVE PUTS KNOX GUILTY WITHOUT A DOUBT, AS YOU SAID."

(forum members: please excuse the uncoth caps but I'm only See&Peeing.... er.... I mean C&P-ing... )

Like Lofter, I mentioned that IMHO Knox is an accomplice. Accomplice = guilty. Like Lofter I think the various evidence (mentioned in many posts here) adds up to that.

Anything else?

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Uh... ok... what ever you say....the Italian Press called her Foxy Knoxy.

Uh...is that better now?Why, yes, it is!
Thanks for being more reasonable. ;)
Anyone here can do a 2 second search on google.it and turn up many, MANY references to her as Foxy Knoxy on pages in Italian. Google.it even has image results for Italian speakers who are searching for images under the keywords "Foxy Knoxy".

LMAO. Again, these are all distractions. I am being baited into a debate about whether the Italians use "Foxy Knoxy", and loads of examples are out there. Ridiculous.

ablarc
December 7th, 2009, 03:33 PM
^ She sure looks nice, though.

* Sigh *

lofter1
December 7th, 2009, 03:42 PM
YOU are the one that summoned me here. Now deal with it.


http://www.moldychum.com/storage/2625281085_b61c76c68c.jpg

:cool:

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Yes, I "summoned" him here. By Royal Decree...

---

For the studio audience watching the hole only getting bigger: the term "FoxyKnoxy" was used by the English press. Even if the Italian press reported what the English were calling her... "Foxy" means nothing in Italian.

Yes, Midtown that's right, the Italian Press called her Foxy Knoxy... their readers really got a kick out of it.

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 05:56 PM
Aren't you done yet? With the "Foxy" business?

If anyone is curious about this insanity, just check google.it
There are loads of references to that name, and not just "reporting from the English press".

IN fact, what young, reasonably hip Italian doesn't know the word foxy...my friends in Italy would certainly know it...it seems any young person on facebook or myspace would come across it, no? Jimi Hendrix, hello? Foxy Brown, it goes on and on...And now certainly they know it, if as you say, it has been reported from the British press.... but they know "foxy". People in Ukraine know "foxy".:cool:


Thousands of google hits for "foxy knoxy" on Italian pages... as I said before. The word "foxy" by itself is also on Italian pages...media from blogs and news to music and cultural pages. But no, we have a dismissal of the existence of thousands of google returns. They don't know "foxy" in Italy. Nope. Nobody does. Never heard of it.

Even cnn ROME, Italy (CNN) -- The Italian media call her "Foxy Knoxy," (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/27/amanda.knox.italy/index.html)
Now...go post AGAIN about "foxy". Blah blah blah.
I realize you can't possibly be serious.


For the studio audience watching the hole only getting bigger:ha , we see a big hole alright. :cool:

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 06:08 PM
This is one thing I thought was totally stupid: rolling out the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname as if to indicate a wanton nature, when it was a childhood soccer nickname. Like I said, sometimes Italy resembles one big Jerry Springer episode.

I live in Italy. I have been reading about the Knox case for about 2 years now.

Depite that, again we have Midtownguy explaining to me the way it is.

FYI: whether on the right or extreme left....the Italian press is probably one of the most sober and conservative press' in the world.

For those interested in learning a bit about a culture different than their own:


Two very different views of Italy slaying

ROME — The brutal Nov. 1 slaying of British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy, has been front-page news in Britain and Italy since the story first broke, but the styles of the two nations' media could hardly be less similar.

The British tabloid press, famous for its seminude "page-three girls" and slang-filled headlines, has taken to referring to murder suspect Amanda Knox as "Foxy Knoxy," and has focused on gruesome details of the slaying. The Italian press, with its often flowery language and sometimes contradictory reporting, simply calls the 20-year-old Seattle native and University of Washington student "L'americana" or by her first name, while concentrating on the minutiae of the ongoing investigation.

Media experts say the differences reflect more than news judgment.

"In every country, the style of the media is a function of the culture," says Paul Smith, a professor of cultural studies at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., and a frequent commentator on media issues. "These styles don't reflect the different cultures, they are an intricate part of them." While U.S. newspaper coverage of violent tragedies is usually straightforward, fact-driven and focused on major breaks in the story, the British and Italian press in their own way each feast on the tiniest developments.

To wit: On Wednesday, the gore-loving British tabloids reported that remnants of hair were found in Kercher's clutched fists and provided an estimate of the amount of blood she lost before dying. The process-oriented Italian press, meanwhile, said the first report on forensic evidence was expected today, and that despite the tragedy the city of Perugia has no desire for the University for Foreigners — where Kercher, Knox and Knox's boyfriend and fellow suspect Raffaele Sollecito all studied — to move elsewhere.

Since Knox, her boyfriend and a second man were arrested in connection with the slaying, many photos of the three have appeared in British tabloids — mostly candid shots of them at parties, acting silly, flashing toothy smiles. The photos that have run in the Italian press are generally more solemn, serious shots taken after the slaying. "I think that British people tend to look at many stories from a personal perspective," says Lucy Beresford, a London psychotherapist, writer and media commentator. "Perhaps they want to know certain things because they may have a daughter about to study abroad and a story like this worries them.

"It is also relevant to note that there is a 24-hour news cycle and a case like this and some others evolves over a long period," she adds. British reports have often focused on gossip, including conversations Kercher reportedly had with friends about Knox's purported bad habits. For example: Sollecito enjoyed violent comic books with titles like "Blood" and "Mad Psycho"; details of Knox's MySpace.com profile (source of the nickname "Foxy Knoxy"); and gore — how deep the cut across Kercher's throat was, or the "seminude" state she was found in the morning after she was killed.

Italian journalists, on the other hand, are focused on minutiae: the actual time of the death; whether a knife Sollecito owns could have been used to slash Kercher's neck; the origins of a foreign hair found on the head of the third suspect, bar owner Diya "Patrick" Lumumba; and the owner of an unexplained high-heel shoe found in Kercher's room.

Italian newspaper La Stampa on Wednesday ran a series of full-color artist's renderings of how the slaying might have taken place and depicting the crime scene.

Very often, the "facts" reported in some Italian stories change from day to day. "A problem with Italian media is that it is so competitive that every journalist on a story wants a scoop every day," says Giuseppe Mazzei, a communications professor and commentator with Rome's Sapienza University. "This means they have to focus on smaller and smaller areas and they don't have the time to double- and triple-check information that may just be based on hearsay."

Eric J. Lyman is a freelance writer based in Rome.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004015031_italy15m.html

--

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 06:12 PM
I live in Italy.please dear God, just 5 cents for every time we are reminded of that.

Even cnn ROME, Italy (CNN) -- The Italian media call her "Foxy Knoxy," (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/27/amanda.knox.italy/index.html)
Now...go post AGAIN about "foxy". Blah blah blah.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 06:29 PM
The Italian press also calls David Berkowitz "The Son of Sam"

I wonder why?

The ENTIRE WORLD called her "Foxy Knoxy"... picked up from the English press but it means NOTHING HERE.... it casts nothing on her character: She was mostly known as "L'Americana" or "L'Amelie di Seattle"

I wonder why?

(somebody tell him that they speak Italian in Italy.... geeeesh)


--

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Again.

Even cnn ROME, Italy (CNN) -- The Italian media call her "Foxy Knoxy," (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/27/amanda.knox.italy/index.html)
Now...go post AGAIN about "foxy". Blah blah blah.

OmegaNYC
December 7th, 2009, 07:26 PM
http://www.masonicinfo.com/images/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 07:48 PM
^ "Despite protests from defence lawyers, the prosecution was allowed to show an animated film reconstruction in court depicting the prosecution's version of the murder."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/22/meredith-kercher-trial-amanda-knox

ablarc
December 7th, 2009, 07:52 PM
What a mess.

The more I read about this, the more I'm tempted to believe that Italians are too childish to be trusted with a legal system.

Fabrizio
December 7th, 2009, 07:55 PM
Agreed. That animation is a scandal.

Ebryan
December 7th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Another scandal: Isn't the prosecutor in this case up on charges that he has abused his own power as a prosecutor, but that case has been pushed back under Italian law so he could prosecute on this case?

Um yes, that's right: http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/2009/07/amanda-knox-prosecutor-giuliano-mignini.html

MidtownGuy
December 7th, 2009, 11:06 PM
The DNA technique used to analyze the knife is not reliable. A process called LCN DNA was used- "Low Copy Number DNA" profiling. From what I have read at the following link, the process relies on a much smaller sample of DNA than is traditionally used and is more subject to contamination, plus has results that are not reproducible.

excerpted:
"Conventional DNA profiling has been rigorously tested, reproducibly performed in many laboratories around the world, and validated with carefully designed control tests. With LCN DNA profiling, no such body of controlled tests yet exists. The method is too new, too quirky, and too unreliable to be safely used until it is much better understood."

and

"What does it mean for Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Solecito? The DNA profile from the knife blade in Raffaelle's kitchen drawer that supposedly matches that of Meredith Kercher was performed by LCN DNA testing. It can never be reproduced. The “any crime, anywhere, any time” danger expressed in the previous paragraph is not hypothetical, it is actually happening to Amanda and Raffaelle. This form of evidence amounts to, simply, “The defendant is guilty because we say so.” Yet it is even worse. It is an un-testable assertion backed up by a bunch of impressive charts and statistics and the magic words, “science” and “DNA.” It has all of the appearance of scientific certainty with none of the substance. It is not yet truly scientific, and it is anything but certain."

The whole explanation is here (http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/2009/08/amanda-knox-and-rafaelle-sollecitto.html).

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 07:14 AM
^ As I understand it, not even the Italian court claims that there was Knox's DNA in the room.... nor do they pin her conviction on DNA evidence.

About Prosecuter Mignini: although I have expressed my reservations about judges here : their highly politized stance, the corruption that goes with lifetime appointments... as I also expressed in the Berlusconi thread: Itay should be able to elect judges.

However: it should also be pointed out that the Knox case was examined by 19 judges over the course of 2 years and the bulk of the trail in the last year was handled by Manuela Comodi.


--

ablarc
December 8th, 2009, 07:23 AM
^ Instead, it's contradictory statements, bad fashion choices, and cartwheels.

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 07:37 AM
I'm telling you.... those cartwheels... in an Italian police station while your boyfriend is being questioned for the murder of your roomate.... I'm surprised they didn't give her life in solitary confinement.

Ebryan
December 8th, 2009, 10:40 AM
^If that is the reality on the ground, I'm nauseated.

This is getting interesting now, the Secretary of State is involved.

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 10:55 AM
^ I was making an exaggerated joke.... with a kernal of truth.

----

IMHO: For Knox's sake it would be best if Clinton did not get involved. At least not publically.

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 03:48 PM
MidtownGuy
The DNA technique used to analyze the knife is not reliable.fabrizio
not even the Italian court claims that there was Knox's DNA in the room....The knife. That was the first line in the post. LCN DNA testing on the knife.

"The DNA profile from the knife blade in Raffaelle's kitchen drawer that supposedly matches that of Meredith Kercher was performed by LCN DNA testing."

Did I mention...it's talking about the knife?



nor do they pin her conviction on DNA evidence.In fact, the conviction is based on nothing substantive. The circumstantial evidence seems pathetic as well.

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 04:03 PM
The article is talking about the accuracy in DNA testing. Whether on the knife, in the room, or where ever, Knox's conviction as far as I know, did not depend on the DNA samples.

"In fact, the conviction is based on nothing substantive."

According to the Italian judiciary sytem it is. (the circumstantial evidence)

Furthermore the exact reasoning of the judge and jury will be revealed in 90 days, as is law here.

--

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 04:40 PM
The DNA technique used to analyze the knife is not reliable.


Another observation: the article talks of the innacuracy of this "Low Copy Number DNA testing"

Yet this article (below) claims the the method is still being used in the UK. And that "It has been used in more than 21,000 serious crime cases in the UK and internationally".

The article does say that the use of it was suspended for a year for review, but has been approved by the UK's Crown Prosecution Service (the department of the Government of the UK responsible for public prosecutions of people charged with criminal offences in England and Wales.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_copy_number

---

"LCN methods have been used as evidence in a number of countries, ie; United States (New York), New Zealand, Holland, Italy, Germany, Croatia, Austria and Switzerland." And, "...is accepted by the international, operational forensic community..."

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/lcn_testing.html

http://www.cps.gov.uk/

So one has to decide if they believe that blogger or the UK's Crown Prosecution Service.

Be that as it may, from what I understand the conviction did not hinge on DNA samples... but we will know the judge and jury's reasoning within 90 days.

--

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 05:50 PM
The article is talking about the accuracy in DNA testing. Whether on the knife, in the room, or where ever, Knox's conviction as far as I know, did not depend on the DNA samples.I had a whole post about the DNA on the knife, very clearly written, and you responded with


As I understand it, not even the Italian court claims that there was Knox's DNA in the roomWhat is that in reply to? "not even"? I never mentioned the room in that post. What are you responding to there? The word "room" isn't mentioned once! I think it's just a silly reflex: "oh MTG is posting, let me find something to argue"...even when what you find arguable wasn't even there.:rolleyes:

But I'm glad to see that you've got it straight now.


As far as the reliability of LCN DNA analysis, it is under heavy dispute among many experts, not just "that blogger" as you put it, and that is the situation. You have unreliable DNA testing combined with circumstantial evidence that is incredibly flimsy. Who could respect somebody that says they have "no doubt". Only an ass wouldn't have some doubts.

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 05:58 PM
One of the things that keeps coming up in scientific writing about LCN DNA is that the samples are so minute, there is not enough material to double check. The results are irreproducible. IN GOOD SCIENCE THIS IS A NO-NO.

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 06:08 PM
^ would you have any idea why it was approved by the UK gov, after a year long review, "is accepted by the international, operational forensic community...", "has been used in "21,000 serious crime cases in the UK and internationally", "ie; United States (New York), New Zealand, Holland, Italy, Germany, Croatia, Austria and Switzerland." ?

Any ideas?

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 06:09 PM
excerpted:
... DNA evidence brought by the prosecution is being questioned by nine US specialists in DNA forensics.


and

...In an open letter, the US specialists outline their concerns with two pieces of DNA evidence that are central to the case against Knox and Sollecito.
from
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18215-knox-mur

---
It isnt just "that blogger". Scientists from around the world dispute the validity and reliability of using such minute samples. Without any decent circumstantial evidence either, we see this case for what is: justice going out the window...in a country that looks more and more, every day, like it's operating at a level scarcely above banana republic.

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 06:15 PM
I had a whole post about the DNA on the knife, very clearly written, and you responded with

Quote:
As I understand it, not even the Italian court claims that there was Knox's DNA in the roomWhat was this in reply to? I was talking about the knife, and you go off about the room? You still have not clarified.:confused:

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Yes, 9 US specialists are questioning the DNA evidence. "most US labs only count peaks falling above a height threshold of 150 relative fluorescence units (RFUs) and all dismiss those below 50. The trouble with the DNA found on the knife is that "most of the peaks are below 50", says Greg Hampikian of Boise State University in Idaho, who signed the letter and reviewed the DNA evidence." etc.

But the case did not take place in the US. The testing took place in the UK. The crime took place in Italy. Apparently the results satisfy standards here.

--

Post #107 I think I clarified what I was saying and that my clarification was clear: " The DNA technique used to analyze the knife is not reliable." Instead the method used is an internationally accepted method. And as I mention above apperntly fits the standards used here.

--

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 06:23 PM
Apparently...but we say those standards are unscientific and not conclusive enough to put a young girl behind bars for decades when the circumstantial evidence is so paltry too.

The way the whole case was handled stinks...I thought the USA was bad, but the more I read about this case, it's like it was conducted by retards or monkeys. I even read somewhere that a know-nothing Italian investigator had long strands of her hair hanging down while she collected evidence.

No motive, no good physical evidence, no circumstantial evidence that would convince anyone with even the smallest brain...a mess. Convicted for cartwheels?

Let's bomb Perugia. Just kidding. Sort of.

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Or maybe we can boycott those chocolate "Baci" things.:)

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 06:28 PM
These are our standards. The crime happened here.

If we must make comparisions, personally I think our justice system for all it's problems, it is much more humane and accurate than the US system. Our major beef here is that it is usually too lenient. Ours is bad in it's slowness and not effective in certain types of cases... epecially petty cases. But over-all I prefer ours.

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 06:32 PM
personally I think our justice system for all it's problems, it is much more humane and accurate than the US system.That is your opinion, but looking at this case...the lack of evidence, the unsequestered jury in the middle of a media circus, ignoring reasonable doubt...the way evidence was collected, oh hell...the whole thing... certainly doesn't convince anyone else of that.

I would rather be tried in the USA any day. Over all, the Italian justice system looks like a joke. The executive branch too, as we already know.

Nice little country, but horrible government.

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Our major beef here is that it is usually too lenient.

Unless you do a cartwheel or make a face somebody doesn't like.:cool:

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 06:53 PM
"personally I think our justice system for all it's problems, it is much more humane and accurate than the US system."


That is your opinion


It is my opinion and an opinion it is shared by millions around the world (the gruesomeness of the US system).

World wide incarceration rates:

"Over 9 million people are held in penal institutions throughout the world, mostly as pre - trial detainees (remand prisoners) or having been convicted and sentenced."

"About half of these are in the United States (2.03m), Russia (0.86m) or China (1.51m plus pre-trial detainees and prisoners in ‘administrative detention’)."

"The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 701 per 100,000 of the national population..."

Uh... number of the population in prision per 100,000 in Italy?

92.

Oh... and let's add to those fiqures that fact that many US states have capital punishment and your government puts it's citizens to death.


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf



I would rather be tried in the USA any day.

That's your opinion.

--

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 07:39 PM
^ Sorry, I made a mistake in the link I posted. The US figures are not "701 per 100,000" (those are figures from 2003). The latest figures that I can find, show the US at "756 per 100,000". The Italy figure at "92 per 100,00" is correct however.

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/wppl-8th_41.pdf


--

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 07:58 PM
It is my opinion and an opinion it is shared by millions around the world (the gruesomeness of the US system).

^ Good one. I could find millions who believe lots of things.
You changed the statement with the parentheses.

I have no doubt "millions" think the US system is gruesome. I agree with that in many ways. But that isn't what you initially said. You had directly compared the US system with that of Italy, placing Italy's system above...not making a general statement about one system's "gruesomeness".

If indeed you mean to assert that most people around the world would prefer to be tried in Italy than in the USA, good luck finding anything to substantiate that claim.

This pitiful case, so ineptly conducted, is playing out across the international news, and I doubt it would cause any defendant to want a change of jurisdiction to Perugia.:cool:

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 08:01 PM
I see that you have spent time continuing to collect incarceration rates.
I'm bored.
Bye for now. When some people show up that want to discuss the Knox case instead of Amerikka, I'll be back.

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 08:17 PM
You had directly compared the US system with that of Italy, placing Italy's system above.

Absolutely. And as I said I believe, it is much more humane and accurate here.

I can't speak for people around the world, but I would be surprised to find any European who would prefer the US justice sysatem over Italy's or prefer to be tried there. Your justice system has a horrible reputation here. The world's highest incarceration rates, the executions by your government, the executing and imprisonment of adults for crimes comminted as minors, the execution of the mentaly handicapped. The execution of women. I don't think you understand the prevaling opinion here.

You don't agree with the case or methods used here? Fine... no problem with that.... but a European being lectured about justice by an American is pretty rich.

"As of year-end 2007, a record 7.2 million people were behind bars, on probation, or on parole, with 2.3 million of those actually incarcerated. More than 1 in 100 American adults were incarcerated at the start of 2008."

756 per 100,000 vs 92 per 100,000. In the US you have nearly 8 times as much chance to be thrown in the slammer. Oh... yes... and then there is capital punishment. And possibity of appeals in court?

And by the way, follow the exchange: the US and comparisons were brought up by you.

If you are going to make comparisons, then allow me too.

--

lofter1
December 8th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Knocking our Correction System? In the USA it's State of the Art. Why, just today, for the very first time, the authorities executed a prisoner (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091208/ap_on_re_us/us_ohio_execution) by means of a "One Shot" lethal injection -- rather than the troublesome and "excrutiatingly painful" old-style "Triple Shot."

Big problem now would seem to be that the guy who pushes the plunger knows he's a killer, too.

Fabrizio
December 8th, 2009, 09:11 PM
1 in 100 in prison. Who put them there? And by what process?. Midtownguy does not quite understrand that the Italian justice system leans liberal and in Europe is judged as fair.

He probably doesn't understand that those executed prisoners in the US get more press coverage in Europe than they do in the US, if you are really want to know the things that shape public opinion around the world.

I'd love to see an opinion poll here in Europe: Perugia or Texas...

Nor is he aware that European opinion has not been favorable to Knox. The Italian justice system is different then Northern Europe.... more similair to France. It's got it's problems... but thank God, not like the US.

(I do admire your small claims courts though)

--

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 09:45 PM
Midtownguy does not quite understrand...
He probably doesn't understand that...read the quotes above a second time and see how someone might think you were trying to provoke or escalate. If that isn't your intent, don't speak about my "understanding" in the third person again...it will always engender more conflict instead of de-escalate. Got it, FABRIZIO?

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Absolutely. And as I said I believe, it is much more humane and accurate here.
Not for Amanda Knox, who has no real evidence against her.

hbcat
December 8th, 2009, 10:07 PM
Actually, comparisons of the American-Italian judicial systems have come up at several points in the thread and have been raised by various forum members. Given the story, and that it is being discussed on WNY, such comparisons would seem inevitable and quite pertinent.

But more to the point: how did you two come to be so antagonistic (please don't answer; it's a rhetorical question)? I've been through enough threads now to see that you both love NY, have interesting things to offer, etc., etc., but seem to enjoy provoking each other. This wasn't always the case:

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7300

This thread, from several years ago, left me laughing and moved me to sign up as a forum member. Looking over it again now, I see you were not only civil to one another, but positively friendly.

If you cannot now be friendly, can you at least be civil? Any hope you might avoid these cantankerous, off-topic, exchanges? You're both choosing to get into these squabbles. Where is it leading? To what?

Really. Pleeeeeeeease? :)

Yours truly,
Rodney King

MidtownGuy
December 8th, 2009, 10:25 PM
I am not here to have enemies, or a nemesis, or whatever you might call it.

Unfortunately, at this point the best solution would be to mutually ignore each other, I think.

Fabrizio
December 9th, 2009, 03:37 AM
It's difficult to follow the above when edits are done long after posts have already been responded to.

----



Not for Amanda Knox, who has no real evidence against her.

In the meantime:

"Asked whether the State Department believed Knox had been treated fairly, Kelly* said, "I don't have any indications to the contrary. I do know that our embassy in Rome was very closely involved in this. They visited Amanda Knox. They have monitored the trial."

* Ian Kelly State Department Spokesman.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8846297

--

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 05:04 PM
Knox prosecutor convicted of abuse in another case

FLORENCE, Italy (Reuters) - The Italian prosecutor who secured a 26-year murder conviction against American Amanda Knox last year was convicted Friday of abuse of office and illegal telephone tapping in an earlier murder case.


Giuliano Mignini, chief prosecutor in Knox's trial for the 2007 killing of British student Meredith Kerchner in Perugia, was sentenced to one year and four months in prison for his role in the investigation of the "Monster of Florence" murders.


A police investigator was also found guilty of abuse of office during the investigation into the grizzly serial murders of couples in the Tuscan countryside between 1968 and 1985.


"I cannot see any abuse in my actions," Mignini, who is appealing the verdict, told reporters after the hearing.


Mignini will be allowed to continue working while the appeals process runs its course, his lawyer said.



The two officials were found guilty of tapping the phones of journalists and police officers.


His conviction is expected to hand ammunition to critics of the Knox trial.
The family of the 22-year-old American, who is appealing her conviction, has strongly criticized the Italian legal system and the prosecution's methods.


The "Monster of Florence" case involved the serial killings of four pairs of lovers while they were parked in cars in the isolated countryside around Florence.


Two men were convicted of the murders of four people. Another man who was initially convicted of eight murders and then acquitted on a first appeal died before the start of his second appeals trial.
(Editing by Jon Hemming)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012203022.html

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 05:12 PM
Means not much. This is according to a prosecuter, but under Italian law Mignini is still innocent and allowed to practice.

Americans will confuse this too with the American judicial system.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 05:17 PM
Why on Earth would they do that? Most Americans know what a farce the Italian justice system is, especially after this case. Even if we aren't 100% satisfied with our own, we certainly know it's leagues above the Italian version.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 05:21 PM
They had a fundraiser at a comedy club. Imagine that! What chutzpah! I bet there was lots of smiling going on too.

Amanda Knox's family: "Comedy night fundraiser a welcomed break"


Nearly 90 people attended Amanda Knox's fundraiser Wednesday night, Jan. 27, held at the Comedy Underground in Seattle's Pioneer Square neighborhood. Tickets were $50, and raffle tickets were sold, to raise money for Knox's appeal process which follows her Dec. 4 guilty verdict for murdering her college roommate Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy Nov. 1, 2007. Money raised goes to www.amandaknoxdefensedfund.org (http://www.amandaknoxdefensedfund.org/).
Five stand-up comedians performed for free, including event organizer and host, Renee Perrault, a friend of Amanda's father, Curt, and his former co-worker at Macy's Corporation. Several raffle prizes were awarded. At the event's conclusion, Curt and Amanda's mother Edda Mellas briefly thanked the crowd.
The comedians' topics varied but none made reference to Amanda or the trial. Many family members were sprinkled in the audience as well as supporters from Amanda's West Seattle neighborhood. One audience member said he came from Connecticut to offer his support.
"They have a strange system of justice in Italy," said said Tony Comito from Ballard, an Amanda supporter and professional magician who said he is Italian-American and has been following the trial closely. "You would think they've had all this time since the Roman times to develop their system of justice and this is what we have?"
"It was funny," said Chris Mellas, Amanda's step-father. "It was good stuff. I'm surprised how many people turned out. It's pretty cool."
"I grew up in West Seattle, and went to the UW study-abroad program in France," said landscape designer Blair Constantine who also happens to be the brother of King County Executive, Dow. "I would recommend France over Italy to anybody. I kind of relate, since I was also a student in Europe, and feel very, very bad for the family."
"I had a really amazing time," said Madison Paxton, a close friend of both Amanda and her sister Deanna. "It really touches the heart to see all these people here. It was really funny. I also thought it was really funny and I'll definitely come back here a lot."
"I scoped this place out on my 21st birthday," said Deanna. "The comics here are hilarious." She said she would "turn beet red" if she tried to do stand-up comedy on stage.
"While it was a comedy event we're dealing with a very serious situation," said Curt. "Absolutely the greatest loss was the loss of Meredith's life."
Curt said his family welcomed a break from the day to day anguish of fighting for his daughter's freedom.
"it was actually kind of nice to venture away from the stress involved with the situation," he said. "It was extremely nice to have all of the people around us and it was a great event."
Although some media earlier reported the possibility of "anti-Amanda" protesters gathering outside the club, they were a no-show.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 05:26 PM
Means not much. This is according to a prosecuter, but under Italian law Mignini is still innocent and allowed to practice.


OK.
Amanda Knox's father welcomes jail term for Meredith Kercher murder prosecutor for 'corruption'


The father of Amanda Knox last night welcomed the corruption conviction of the prosecutor who led the murder case against her.
Giuliano Mignini was given a 16-month jail sentence after being found guilty of abusing his office during a separate investigation into a serial killer.
Mignini’s trial took place in Italy at the same time as he was leading the prosecution of Knox, 22.
Her family had questioned the conflict of interest and yesterday her father Curt said: ‘It does make you wonder about his tactics in other cases and whether he should have been allowed to prosecute Amanda.
'It’s clear that the methods used by the Perugia prosecutors are not in accordance with Italian law.’
Knox was jailed for 26 years last month for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, 21.
Mignini was found guilty with crimewriter Michele Giuttari, a former police chief, who was given 18 months. The pair, who harassed and intimidated reporters, are appealing against their sentences.
The case against them was heard in Florence and centred on the so-called Monster of Florence serial killer.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1245639/Amanda-Knoxs-father-welcomes-jail-term-Meredith-Kercher-murder-prosecutor-corruption.html#ixzz0ebnwk935

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 05:30 PM
^ the case is from 1985. Furthermore most of the Knox case was not even presided by Mignini. And the conviction was not handed down by him. It will make absolutely no difference in the case.

Furthermore how can Knox's father say this: "'It’s clear that the methods used by the Perugia prosecutors are not in accordance with Italian law.’"

LOL. Oh, really? Clear to whom?

--

As for the above: No, actually the Italian justice system is fairer and more humane than the US'... and in Europe ranks on par with Denmark's.

There is some fair reporting coming of of the US media about the case however... even from Seattle... a must read for anyone interested in the case:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/413244_knox15.html

--

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 05:33 PM
No, actually the Italian justice system is fairer and more humane than the US
Puhleeze. Tell that to Amanda Knox.

commentator
February 4th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Why on Earth would they do that? Most Americans know what a farce the Italian justice system is, especially after this case. Even if we aren't 100% satisfied with our own, we certainly know it's leagues above the Italian version.

No you don't know that. You think you do but that is a different thing entirely.

Much of the interest in the case comes from the fact that "Foxy Knoxy" has become a character in a our cultural narrative. She is seen as the ultimate femme fatale, man hungry and manipulative, at once easily available and insatiable, desired and fearful. She is larger than life. This could happen in any country, in any system. In the UK Myra Hindley, the accomplice to the Moors Murderer was kept in prison long after a similar but unknown criminal would have been freed but Hindley was Hindley....a popular cultural icon as in Knox in her way.

This sort of thing is possible anywhere including the US.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 05:41 PM
Oh and BTW.... just compre the Knox case with the Casey Anthony case in the US. This woman will most likely get the death penalty. For what exactly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caylee_Anthony_homicide

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 05:47 PM
From a 3 second glance at that wiki article, I see two VERY different cases, so I'm not sure WHY I would want to compare the two.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 05:57 PM
Then take 5 minutes and read it. Actually many elements are similar. Please tell me: this woman, indicted for first degree murder... what is the evidence that she killed her child? Tell me about the hard evidence.

Knox is lucky she got mixed with the law in Italy and not the US. She'd be fried.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 06:09 PM
I'm not interested in reading the details of that case, but please feel free to summarize if there really are similarities. I mean, you brought it up, right? So please elaborate if it means that much, or has an actual relevance to the Amanda case beyond "there's no hard evidence".:rolleyes:

In the mean time, I will add that the forensic evidence against Amanda Knox appears to be ridiculously unreliable. The motive is even more ridiculous: that Kirchner was killed for refusing to take place in a sex game. Good one.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 06:15 PM
Under European standards the DNA evidence in the Knox case is reliable.

The Anythony case is based on circumstantial evidence... including the woman's behavior. All of the DNA evidence has been called into question... and even none of that could be directly tied to the accused.

But the woman is in jail on first degree murder charges. And facing calls for the death penalty.

Good one.

( and BTW, I'm not calling into question the rulings in this case... every country has their methods. I'll take my county's... thank you).

--



In the mean time, I will add that the forensic evidence against Amanda Knox appears to be ridiculously unreliable. The motive is even more ridiculous: that Kirchner was killed for refusing to take place in a sex game. Good one.

^ As in the Anthony case (and probably hundreds of other in the US) motive and DNA evidence were not the over-riding factors in the conviction: circumstantial evidence, behavior, lies... the changing of the story...false accusations... witnesses.... etc. were what swayed the court.


---

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 06:24 PM
The DNA evidence against Knox is not credible.
If you think this is credible, then I have a bridge in Arizona to sell you, with a nice view of the ocean:

The prosecution case against Sollecito hinged on two pieces of DNA evidence. One was a clasp ripped from Miss Kercher's bra, which bore tiny traces of Sollecito's DNA. But defence lawyers queried why his DNA evidence would be on the metal clasp, and not on the fabric of the bra strap from which it was torn. "How can you touch the hook without touching the cloth?" asked Sollecito's high-profile lawyer, Giulia Bongiorno. And it was only found on Dec 18, 2007 – seven weeks after the initial crime scene investigation. In the meantime it was scuffed around the floor of Miss Kercher's bedroom, leading to a high risk of DNA contamination.

SURE, VERY RELIABLE!:D:D:D

"they said Miss Kercher was killed with a 6.5 inch long kitchen knife found in Sollecito's apartment. The handle bore traces of Knox's DNA – not surprising, given that she had prepared meals in her boyfriend's flat – and evidence of Kercher's DNA on the blade. But defence experts said the sample quality was so poor that it was unreliable as evidence and would not have been admissible in many foreign courts. The knife did not match a bloody, knife-shaped smear on Miss Kercher's bedclothes, nor did the blade match two out of three of the wounds to her neck.


and then there is this

when a female investigator reaches down with tweezers to pluck a hair sample off the blood-stained duvet, her own long hair dangles down beside her.

Now, why don't you repeat again how very credible all of this is.


If you are trying to get me to defend the case in Florida, don't waste your time baiting. Two wrongs don't make a right.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 06:29 PM
^ As in the Anthony case (and probably hundreds of other in the US) motive and DNA evidence were not the over-riding factors in the conviction.
Hearsay.
And you added this after I responded (up to old tricks).
Just put it a new post. Thanks.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 06:33 PM
Then he does it again.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4330681191_6901f389b0_o.png

For Christ's sake...it's no use having a debate with you. You don't go forward, you just go back.

No credible evidence against Amanda.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 06:35 PM
Midtown... c'mon you know because this is practically in real-time there will be over lapping... if you want to make a big-deal about is go ahead but in the meantime: Here it is.




In the mean time, I will add that the forensic evidence against Amanda Knox appears to be ridiculously unreliable. The motive is even more ridiculous: that Kirchner was killed for refusing to take place in a sex game. Good one.

^ As in the Anthony case (and probably hundreds of other in the US) motive and DNA evidence were not the over-riding factors in the conviction: circumstantial evidence, behavior, lies... the changing of the story...false accusations... witnesses.... etc. were what swayed the court.

No one is claiming the DNA was the determining facrtor. But no matter how much you want to write in bold, BOTH sides of the story should be told.... from the Seattle Times .....about the DNA.... interesting reading:


"Alleged murder weapon: A knife with Knox's DNA on the handle and a trace of Kercher's DNA on the blade. Defense argued the DNA was too small of a sample and couldn't be proven as the murder weapon. The prosecution argued that while too small to repeat the DNA test, there was no doubt the sample was Kercher's DNA. And said the knife may not have been the only one used, but likely struck the fatal cut.
This is one of the most hotly contested pieces of evidence.

Footprints: Police experts argued to the jury that two luminol-enhanced footprints presumably made in Kercher's blood in the hallway outside her bedroom were Knox's. The defense argued they could have been made in fruit juice, rust or cleaning agents and noted that no specific test for blood was conducted.
Forensic biologists maintained the luminol-enhanced substance was Kercher's blood. In addition, footprint experts argued before the jury that a bloody footprint on the bath mat in the bathroom was Sollecito's.

Mixed blood: Forensic police biologists testified about five spots where they had detected samples of "mixed blood" genetic material -- spots of blood of both Knox and Kercher's -- in the bidet, on the sink, on the drain tap, on the Q-tip box in the bathroom and in a spot where prosecutors argued Knox and Sollecito staged a break-in.
Defense attorneys argued that this genetic material couldn't be certified as blood and that even if it were, it wasn't abnormal since Knox lived in the house and could have left blood around at any time.

The attorney for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, said after the sentence that he believed this mixed blood evidence was "the most damning" piece of evidence against Knox.

Bra clasp: The victim's bra clasp with a significant sample of Sollecito's DNA was found in the room where Kercher died. It had been cut off the victim with a knife.
Defense attorneys argued it was contaminated since it had been noticed and catalogued right after the homicide, but only picked up by police 46 days later and in a slightly different place than it had originally been photographed.

Prosecutors argued that the crime scene had been sealed and that there was no other DNA of Sollecito's found in the house, except on the butt of a cigarette in the kitchen, so it likely was not contamination.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/413244_knox15.html

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 06:41 PM
That is from the same article you already linked to, and in many cases it backs up what I am saying anyway.
Clearly the alleged "evidence" is more damning for Sollecito than for Knox.
What evidence are you saying is convincing against Knox? What evidence?

I know I know, she smiled, changed her mind during hours of interrogation, "behavior"...yada yada yada. So convincing.

The motive sounds really incredible. Kirchner wouldn't have sex with her, so she stabbed her to death. Uh huh. And that damned Colgate smile!

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 06:42 PM
If you are trying to get me to defend the case in Florida, don't waste your time baiting. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But wait a minute... you tell us above that the US system... with it's death penalty, world's highest incarceration rate etc... is "leagues above" the Italian system. LOL. So explain how.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 06:45 PM
Oh, and you frantically search wiki for a case in America with dubious evidence, and suddenly Italy's system is better. Oh, but the death penalty!! (whine whine whine).
LOL.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 06:52 PM
The Anthony case was reported non stop last year on all US news outlets something like 24/7. You would have had to be living in a cave not to have heard about it. Everything from Larry King... to Nancy Grace... Greta Van Susteren, Geraldo Rivera, Dateline, 20/20...to the morning shows etc. Her parents were media stars. MY God... do I really have to frantically search for that one?

( oh yes... you government murdering innocent people on the fryer... an incarceration rate higher than China's... yep.... somethin' to laugh about)

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:01 PM
24/7? I know you are a cable junk food news junkie, but I get my news from progressive sources and consider Larry King a dessicated old toe. They also covered Tiger Woods for weeks on end and I managed to avoid almost all of that too. Basically I saw pictures of a dozen white women and knew the main reason why that story got so much attention. Time to tune out, I said. Only American news I listen to is Amy Goodman. The American corporate news is lousy, just like the one in Italy. But you apparently watch a lot of it for someone that so rarely has ANYTHING good to say about America or Americans. Who the hell is Nancy Grace anyway? Morning shows, yuck!

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:04 PM
oh yes... you government murdering innocent people on the fryer... an incarceration rate higher than China's... yep.... somethin' to laugh aboutthe fryer? LMAO.
Why do you hate America so much, I wonder. The contempt you have for it is palpable, yet you spend every waking hour watching our cable news shows like Glenn Beck, and posting on a mostly American themed forum.
It's just puzzling, that's all.
So many haters.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:07 PM
Everything from Larry King... to Nancy Grace... Greta Van Susteren, Geraldo Rivera, Dateline, 20/20

Then you modified that post to add a few more names. LOL. Gotta love ya.
Van Susteren? How hilarious. She flew to Alaska to interview Palin. Are these the people that shape your view of America? No wonder.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 07:10 PM
Ok... maybe "fryer" was a pretty crude term for the electric chair... sorry. And anyway... isn't it mostly lethal injection over there now-a-days?

According to Greta, I think that's the method of choice.

( 1194 executions in the last 35 years... any statistics on the innocents?)

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:15 PM
1194 executions in the last 35 years Similar perhaps to the number of innocents executed by the mafia in cahootz with Italian government officials? Ooops, I mean, in the Italian government.

Mafia justice...just one more way things are better in Italy.:)

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Why Italy is classified as having the least efficient legal system in Europe
http://pinione.blogspot.com/2009/12/why-italy-is-classified-as-having-least.html

The weapons of mass distraction media has yet again lived up to its nickname with the way it has covered the story of an American student living in Italy, who was recently sentenced for allegedly killing a fellow student she was living with in the town of Perugia. Although most Americans who watched the story of Amanda Know being sentenced to 25 years in prison for allegedly killing her British flat mate were given the facts of the case, most viewers were not made aware of how the speed or lack of speed a defendant receives in a criminal trial in Italy plays a major factor in how a final verdict will be established for a defendant. In addition to the speed of the trial, or lack of speed, the three levels of conviction or appeals is another fact that went under reported or not reported at all by the media. This crucial factor is perhaps one of the most important differences between the American and Italian judicial legal systems and contributes significantly to why Italy is classified by the international financial institution, The World Bank, as having the least efficient legal system in Europe.

Although Opinione did not review every single news article or television news story, Opinione however could make the statement with reasonable assurance that almost all of the reports by the weapons of mass distraction media did not begin their coverage by reporting that the prime minister where the story was taking place, was also currently on trial and has been found guilty (at the first level) in the past for various white collar crimes. Ranging from fraud, bribing tax officials, to engaging in false accounting Silvio Berlusconi has been tried in Italian courts in 12 cases. Demonstrating the weakness of the Italian justice system, in all of these cases Silvio Berlusconi was either acquitted by a court of first instance, on appeal, or stopped due to the expiry of the statute of limitations. It could be safely assured that most viewers would quickly surmise that the quality of Italian justice was suspect and politically tainted.

Just as in most political systems, the laws of a country are created and enforced by a political establishment. Depending on how corrupt or efficient these political systems are, the quality of their trial and the speed in which it takes place in that country’s judicial system is a reflection of the corruption level of that country. Unfortunately as a foreigner in Italy, Ms. Knox did not receive some of these judicial benefits that previous members of Italian society have received such as mafia members like Tommaso Bruscetta or well known national political leaders like the founder of Silvio Berlusconi’s political party Forza Italia, Marcello Dell’Utri, who was found guilty at the first level of collusion with the Sicilian mafia, Cosa Nostra.

Although it is understandable that Senator Maria Cantwell, the senator from Washington state where Ms. Knox is from, tried to exert her political influence, the decades long failure of American leaders to hold the Italian government more accountable for its collusion with the Sicilian mafia, is one of the reasons why the Italian judicial system is considered the least efficient (or fair) system in Europe. Making this ranking more alarming for other Americans visiting or living in Italy and getting involved in the Italian judicial system is considering how many countries are now a part of the European Union.

Instead of explaining the Italian judiciary system to their viewers or the fact that Italy has the least efficient judiciary systems in Europe, the weapons of mass distraction media also missed an opportunity to remind viewers of the recent laws the mafia tainted Prime Minister has tried to pass on his behalf elevating him above the law in direct conflict with the Italian Constitution. Furthermore the weapons of mass distraction media in America and the international press when discussing the case of Amanda Knox the American student accused of killing her British flat mate, also failed to discuss how several members of the Italian government although being convicted for colluding with the Sicilian mafia, Cosa Nostra, are still in government. These political leaders include former seven time prime minister Giulio Andreotti and the previously mentioned Marcello Dell’Utri. Both members of the Italian Senate.

This failure of the mass media in America to discuss the mafia links of several high-ranking government officials, and the related link to the inefficient judicial system in Italy, further enables the Italian government to avoid being held to the same high standards of law and order that most Americans value.

With the United States bleeding billions of dollars of red ink everyday due to the bloated military industrial complex, and the quality of life of most Americans deteriorating because of these expenditures, the links of the mafia to political leaders in Italy is a compelling argument for the United States to stop funding and supporting the over 40 military installations in Italy.

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 07:18 PM
^ Uh... could you tell us who wrote that? Something about the authour? What publication?

(Try harder.)

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:21 PM
Be smarter.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:22 PM
Uh... could you tell us who wrote that? What publication?

Instead, tell us what things are innaccurate. What names are wrong? People misidentified? I mean, it's just a blog, so surely instead of attacking the messenger, you have salient points to counter?

Fabrizio
February 4th, 2010, 07:24 PM
Thank's for answering.

(That's what I thought)

"instead of attacking the messenger,"

Attacking the messenger? Where?

BTW; the "author" keeps repeating that Italy has the "least efficient" judicial system in Europe, On that I agree.

MidtownGuy
February 4th, 2010, 07:25 PM
You thought? Imagine!
I'm glad you came out to play tonight. It was fun.
I have to go to dinner (even though all American food is crap, right?)...but I'll be sure to check in soon.

BBMW
February 4th, 2010, 09:19 PM
Could this be appealed up into the EU?

commentator
February 5th, 2010, 07:41 AM
^ Uh... could you tell us who wrote that? Something about the authour? What publication?

(Try harder.)

A let winger in a leftist publication.

commentator
February 5th, 2010, 07:44 AM
I like the bit about holding the Italians to the standard of law and order most Americans value....Guantanamo anyone? Obama's grandstanding followed by? Nothing. The execution of educationally subnormals who hapen to be mostly from the same race anyone. I mean come on. I love America dearly but Midtowner come on.

Fact is each and every system has its flaws and faults.

stache
February 5th, 2010, 09:26 AM
Yes but the general consensus from people I talk to is Italy is in a decline.

Fabrizio
February 5th, 2010, 09:50 AM
... since the Renaissance.

( *sigh*)

MidtownGuy
February 11th, 2010, 10:32 AM
A let winger in a leftist publication.

Like I said, just attack the messenger. Or infer the messenger is less than trustworthy, a typical and tired tactic when you have nothing intelligent to say against the actual meaning of the message. Comments typical of a right winger.



I mean come on. I love America dearly but Midtowner come on.


No, you "come on" commentboy. No one is defending execution or Guantanamo.


Fact is each and every system has its flaws and faults.

A more reasoned statement than the other drive-by swill. As I've mentioned in another thread on the legal system here, I am no big fan but I still stand by my statement that it is better than the Italian system.[/QUOTE]

Ninjahedge
February 11th, 2010, 11:27 AM
You thought? Imagine!
I'm glad you came out to play tonight. It was fun.
I have to go to dinner (even though all American food is crap, right?)...but I'll be sure to check in soon.

Most American food is crap... Sorry MTG.....

I mean, the only GOOD stuff we have was brought from the homelands by people who knew something good to do with it!

Most prairie food is crap, and some european (Irish, scottish, English, sorry) leaves a bit to be desired..... It is the French, Italian, German, Spanish, Mexican and many other foods that make the food in, but not OF, the US great.....


Sorry, had to interrupt... what was this thread about again?;)

Fabrizio
February 11th, 2010, 05:50 PM
^ Uh... could you tell us who wrote that? Something about the authour? What publication?

I asked that because the article reeks of creative writing 101: how about some sources? Some links to back up his fantastical claims?

Sorry, but I do want to know the background of an authour and the reputation of the publication he is writing for: but OK, it's a personal blog... and the author's bio says only this: "Political scientist (M.A., B.A.) in international affairs and veteran of the U.S. armed forces. Publications include Kurds-Orphans without a Kingdom and Militarism- A Silent Scourge on the American Republic"

A search of the author's publications (term papers?) reveals nothing.

But hey... maybe he's a genius... another expert on Italy.... just masquerading as a nobody with no qualifications... who knows?... so let's put qualifications aside and examine the article in good faith:

He writes: "Although most Americans who watched the story of Amanda Knox being sentenced to 25 years in prison for allegedly killing her British flat mate were given the facts of the case, most viewers were not made aware of how the speed or lack of speed a defendant receives in a criminal trial in Italy plays a major factor in how a final verdict will be established for a defendant."

Actually, I contend that Americans were not given the facts of the case but I'll adress that in another post. In the meantime: it would be nice if the authour explain his position here: some examples of how the speed of trails affects their outcome?

He goes on to say: "In addition to the speed of the trial, or lack of speed, the three levels of conviction or appeals is another fact that went under reported or not reported at all by the media. This crucial factor is perhaps one of the most important differences between the American and Italian judicial legal systems and contributes significantly to why Italy is classified by the international financial institution, The World Bank, as having the least efficient legal system in Europe. "

Again he provides no proof to this claim, no link. I can find nothing... but I would like to know how any of this might apply in criminal cases. I can understand Italy's inefficiency in terms of the number of backlogged cases... in the legnth of trails... and I would not be surprised if it's the worst in Europe in that respect, but not how any of this might apply to the Knox case.

He goes on: "Although Opinione did not review every single news article or television news story, Opinione however could make the statement with reasonable assurance that almost all of the reports by the weapons of mass distraction media did not begin their coverage by reporting that the prime minister where the story was taking place, was also currently on trial and has been found guilty (at the first level) in the past for various white collar crimes. Ranging from fraud, bribing tax officials, to engaging in false accounting Silvio Berlusconi has been tried in Italian courts in 12 cases. Demonstrating the weakness of the Italian justice system, in all of these cases Silvio Berlusconi was either acquitted by a court of first instance, on appeal, or stopped due to the expiry of the statute of limitations. It could be safely assured that most viewers would quickly surmise that the quality of Italian justice was suspect and politically tainted. "

Reasonable assurance? Is that all he can offer? And excuse me but the anglo-American press constantly reports on Berlusconi's legal woes.... please.

And not found guilty? Uh... maybe it proves that Berlusconi was actually not guilty. But that destroys the narrative. Again no links and no proof.

He says: "Unfortunately as a foreigner in Italy, Ms. Knox did not receive some of these judicial benefits that previous members of Italian society have received such as mafia members like Tommaso Bruscetta or well known national political leaders like the founder of Silvio Berlusconi’s political party Forza Italia, Marcello Dell’Utri, who was found guilty at the first level of collusion with the Sicilian mafia, Cosa Nostra. "

Funny I see that differently: Amanda Knox did not recieve the same benifits in Italy that she would have recieved in the US as an attractive upper-middle class white woman with an expensive lawyer. In the US if she had been black and poor and had continually changed her story and blamed the whole thing on a white bar owner she would be on death-row by now. We know how justice works in the US.


He goes on with the usual Berlusconi links to the Mafia... again with no proof... nothing to backup his statements ....but OK: the Italian government and acting politicians are corrupt and mafia tainted, above the law and the US should remove their military bases because of it.... or some such nonsense ...as if the US's corrurpt military-industrial complex does does not profit handsomely from these bases.

How corrupt Italy! Italians should dump Berlusconi... that's what the Italians should do: but what about the Americans?

In the meantime, the Americans are allowed to reinvent Bill Clinton as a senior-statesman deserving of the world's respect completely forgetting all of the charges against him.

Berlusconi's charges are mostly for tax fraud relating to his business dealings 20 years ago (while not in office) Italians are blamed for ignoring that, yet Americans completely forget the very serious charges against Clinton: the illegal behavior linked to Whitewater, the claims of illegal money for his re-election from Indonesian and Chinese "sources". The sleepovers who paid substantially for their close proximity to the president. How about the Loral Corporation scandal...oh, we could go on and on, but just Clinton's pardons when leaving the WhiteHouse: he pardoned Marc Rich, a billionaire fugitive and commodities dealer who owed the American government $48 million in back taxes. He also commuted the sentence of Carlos Vignali, the notorious head of a Los Angeles cocaine ring, who was serving a fifteen-year prison sentence.

Uh... what was that about Mafia connections? If Berlusconi had pulled stunts like that people would still be talking about it: but not smug, ill-informed, short-memory Americans.

And lets remenber too that it is Hillary Clinton that the Knox family asked to help in the case.

Oh the irony.

--

lofter1
February 11th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Nothing ILLEGAL at all about Presidential pardons.

In fact, the pardon (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/prespardons.htm) is a power outlined in the US Constitution:




Constitutional Authority for Presidential Pardons

The presidential power to pardon is granted under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution.

"The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

No standards, and only one limitation -- no pardons for the impeached.

One might not like how the power is used, but illegal it's not.

Must be good to be President -- or Prime Minister -- when it come to matters of the law.

MidtownGuy
February 11th, 2010, 09:55 PM
Oh the irony.
^oh, the BS.


And not found guilty? Uh... maybe it proves that Berlusconi was actually not guilty.do you really believe this? I mean really?


Actually, I contend that Americans were not given the facts of the case but I'll adress that in another post.the facts are there for anyone, American or otherwise, to find in 2 minutes on the internet. They don't have to be "given" anything.
We, right here, have rehashed the facts and nothing you have said is convincing that there was any credible evidence, DNA or otherwise, and no credible motive. There is, hovever, evidence that the collection of evidence was botched badly; how about the woman collecting samples with her own long hair dangling into the crime scene. Yeah.


But hey... maybe he's a genius... another expert on Italy....don't worry, he doesn't have to be an "expert on Italy":rolleyes: to be able to observe a few basic facts about the legal system. What a load of hooey you write.


Again he provides no proof to this claim, no link. I can find nothing... but I would like to know how any of this might apply in criminal cases. I can understand Italy's inefficiency in terms of the number of backlogged cases... in the legnth of trails... and I would not be surprised if it's the worst in Europe in that respect, but not how any of this might apply to the Knox case.Same way Bill Clinton does I guess. Same way you provide proof about Whitewater.


Funny I see that differently: Amanda Knox did not recieve the same benifits in Italy that she would have recieved in the US as an attractive upper-middle class white woman with an expensive lawyer. She would have had the benefit of a real jury in America. Not the unsequesterd, 2 judge dominated, non-unanimous, joke you call a jury in Italy.


In the US if she had been black and poor and had continually changed her story and blamed the whole thing on a white bar owner she would be on death-row by now. We know how justice works in the US.There is a black guy locked up in Italy for this very case. At the same time they have locked up Amanda and her boy. It all makes so much sense. Yeah, tell us about it.
Your statements about some fantasy black woman and death row are just hypothetical baloney. How many black immigrants are locked up in Italy? Is the incarceration rate the same as for white Italians? I wonder. But at least they won't fry them. See, no problems in Italy.:rolleyes:


How corrupt Italy! Italians should dump Berlusconi... that's what the Italians should do: but what about the Americans?They should dump corrupt politicians too, of course! And?
Who ever said differently?
Of course, by your mental gymnastics, it works like this instead: if you can point out how something is worse in America, there is no reason to be critical of the Italian version of something! Fuhgeddaboutit. Berlusconi is bad? So what! your guy,____ ,is worse! (insert whatever American name you can think of)

Why criticize Italy too? Because it is there and it should be criticised. All government should be. . Did we ever say America was perfect? No. We criticize our own leaders all the time on this forum. Italy, however, is always just...not as bad as us. DAMN AMERICANS! fat, uninformed, short memories, tea party, Bush, blah blah blah. We should just shut up about Italy! More hooey.

MidtownGuy
February 11th, 2010, 10:06 PM
Amanda Knox's Abusive Prosecutor, By Judy Bachrach


Editor’s Note: Judy Bachrach writes for Vanity Fair, and is the creator of thecheckoutline.org (http://www.thecheckoutline.org/), an online advice column for friends and relatives of the terminally ill.
You’d think that the moment the prosecutor in the Amanda Knox trial was himself convicted and handed a 16-month prison sentence that maybe someone somewhere in Italy would scratch his head and say, "Hmmm … Could be that the American girl convicted of murder actually got railroaded … Maybe she didn’t rape and murder her roommate."


It would not be an unnatural surmise. Last week Giuliano Mignini, Knox’s nemesis, was convicted of what the Italians call "abuse of office" – a devastating verdict that arose out of an entirely different murder case. Mignini, it was discovered (to no one’s surprise), had secretly tapped the phones of journalists and cops. He says, his conscience is "clear" and he’s appealing that decision.
Mignini is no special friend to journalists. One Italian reporter who especially upset the prosecutor a while back was thrown into prison — in isolation. An American journalist who was that reporter’s friend was interrogated so harshly that, fearing incarceration himself, he hopped the next plane back to the United States, where he started a campaign (ultimately successful) to free his friend. Their crime? They were critical of Mignini.
From the start, Knox’s rights had been so seriously abrogated that the highest Italian court (analagous to our Supreme Court) declared her first so-called confession should be thrown out. She was interrogated without a lawyer present. (She told her parents early on that when she asked for an attorney she was informed, "A lawyer would only complicate things.") She was grilled night and day by police, and when she insisted at first that she was innocent, she said she was slapped on the head – twice – by a policewoman, who ordered her to start remembering that she was the murderer of Meredith Kercher. Interestingly, there is no tape recording of these proceedings. In Italy there doesn’t have to be.
Amanda was also told if she didn’t confess she would get the maximum – 30 years in prison. And – oh yes – at a time when, having just arrived in Italy, she spoke pitifully little Italian, she wasn’t provided with a translator.
Aside from that, the interrogation, arrest and incarceration of Amanda Knox was absolutely by the book.
Mignini, of course, wasn’t responsible for the assaults or even the non-existent tapes of her supposed confession. But he sure was responsible for the trial, a magic show filled with testimony about Amanda’s vibrator and condoms, and empty of proof.
But in Italy, even a prosecutor convicted of illegal phone taps is still … a prosecutor. Capable, in other words, of sending 22-year-old Amanda Knox to jail for decades.

---

http://www.wowowow.com/politics/amanda-knox-abusive-prosecutor-giuliano-mignini-judy-bachrach-440381

**note: the person who wrote this may not be an expert scholar on Italian law, and isn't an expert on all of Italy either:eek:
She just has the brain to examine the facts on something:rolleyes: instead of getting all hopped up about smiles, cartwheels, and condoms.

Fabrizio
February 12th, 2010, 03:29 AM
^ Oh boy....

Will someone please explain to me WHY the US state department had this to say about the trail?:

"Asked whether the State Department believed Knox had been treated fairly, Kelly said, "I don't have any indications to the contrary. I do know that our embassy in Rome was very closely involved in this. They visited Amanda Knox. They have monitored the trial."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8846297

Should I believe the US State Department and the US Embassy in Rome or a Judy Bachrach? You tell me.

-----------

To actually know about the case, one should follow court transcripts and hear both sides to the story.

Below I have linked to a website called "TrueJustice". It is a "shrine" site to Meridith Kercher filled with photos and stories about her life which hold little interest to me and but it also features an Italian living in Seattle who has scrupulously translated court transcripts and worked through the case.

It is beyond fascinating. If you love a good crime story follow along and come to your own conclusions. The pages I'm posting will look long but the contents are engrossing.

First start with this page about " A phone call before dawn" (scroll down)... the article starts from the very beginnings of the morning after the murder: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C344/

From there go to "The Comprehensive Primary Timeline Of The Case" and from there you'll have a good basis for the overall story: http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmktimeline

See too "Facts presented" : http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C364/

Another good article is: "Myths Rebutted" - http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

--

Fabrizio
February 12th, 2010, 03:55 AM
She would have had the benefit of a real jury in America. Not the unsequesterd, 2 judge dominated, non-unanimous, joke you call a jury in Italy.


^ Again you have no idea of what you are talking about. Italian juries are composed of six laymen and two professional judges. They vote and the (absolute) majority rules. In the Knox case the vote was unanimous. The system BTW is similair to France.

The jury unsequestered? Something odd about that?

--

Fabrizio
February 12th, 2010, 04:36 AM
And about that ridiculous article by Judy Baracarach.... so many falsities.... it's best summed up by the person who comments below the article:

"Judy,

You must be thickest journalist on the planet.

The police were not required to provide Amanda Knox with a lawyer because she was questioned as witness and not a suspect on 5 November 2007.

Amanda Knox wasn’t grilled night and day. Her questioning on November 2007 was stopped at 1.45am when she implicated herself.

You omitted to mention that Amanda Knox’s handwritten confession on 6 November 2007 was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and that it was accepted as evidence by Judge Massei at her trial. This confession was almost identical in content to the two statements that were thrown out.

You weren’t present when Amanda Knox was questioned, so you don’t know that she was slapped twice on the head by a policewoman or that she was told she would get 30 years in prison if she didn’t confess.

All the witnesses who were actually present when Amanda Knox was questioned, including her interpreter, testified under oath that she wasn’t hit and that she was treated well. The judges and jury had to decide whether to believe the corroborative testimony of numerous upstanding witnesses or the word of a compulsive liar who has lied repeatedly. It would have been an easy decision to make.

In case you didn’t know, Amanda Knox claimed on four separate occasions that Diya Lumumba had killed Meredith. Common sense should tell you that it would be extremely foolish to accept anything that Amanda Knox says as the gospel truth."

MidtownGuy
January 17th, 2011, 12:35 PM
So Amanda is in the news again, with an appeal coming up.

One of the witnesses against her has been found guilty of drug charges. Such a credible witness he was!:rolleyes:

Fabrizio
January 18th, 2011, 05:23 AM
LOL. Yet Amanda Knox's defense team is counting on testimony by a jailed mobster and a convicted child murderer:

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/06/10/jailed-italian-mobster-says-amanda-knox-is-innocent/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/10/world/main6284773.shtml

----

And Midtown if you are going to take the thread off topic by mentioning "3rd world justice" then perhaps you should start a new thread on the subject. You might want to open the thread with this recent story in the news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40909822/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

MidtownGuy
January 18th, 2011, 10:50 AM
Incidentally, the Texan was exonerated due to DNA evidence. But let's stick to Amanda Knox on this thread. We don't need yet another "everything is worse in the USA" campaign.

Too bad in Italy they botched up the DNA collection so badly in the Amanda case that it worked the opposite way.

A jailed mobster and child murderer as witnesses? good ol Italy....it really is a kooky little place.

MidtownGuy
January 18th, 2011, 11:23 AM
Of course, if the prosecution could produce a shred of anything that constituted real proof or even motive, we could look at that instead of a load of circumstantial swine droppings.

ablarc
January 18th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Amanda is just so pretty!

How could she be guilty?

As it is, it's just circumstantial swine droppings.

Right?

MidtownGuy
January 18th, 2011, 12:25 PM
Pretty has nothing to do with it.

Frivolous, half-assed DNA collection and a hill of nothing but circumstantial evidence do.

Neither reliable evidence nor motive has been put forward.

There will be a third party review of DNA evidence. If it comes back inconclusive, there will be little left to tie her to the murder.

Got it?

Ninjahedge
January 18th, 2011, 12:40 PM
Is this the thread for rhetorical questions?

MidtownGuy
January 18th, 2011, 12:54 PM
How does the prosecution (or its believers) explain the fact that the knife in question was incompatible with the wounds, AND is the wrong shape and size to match the knife outline at the scene?

Ninjahedge
January 18th, 2011, 12:58 PM
Creative Knifing?

Fabrizio
January 18th, 2011, 03:12 PM
A jailed mobster and child murderer as witnesses? good ol Italy....it really is a kooky little place.

^ Uh....Midtown... these are witnesses ( the jailed mobster and child murderer ) that the Amanda Knox crew has brought in. Whew.

BTW: That convicts or felons are used as witnesses is not particularly strange. Are you telling me it does not happen elsewhere?. And their evidence is judged accordingly.

This particular witness against Knox was a homeless man. The defense at the time claimed he was not a credible witness but his story held up under cross examination by the Knox team.

He has now, years later, been accused on a drug charge (he has not been convicted). The problem for the Knox team is that they cannot use a charge against a witness to discredit them. This BTW holds true in the US as well.

Up above you state that the witness: "has been found guilty of drug charges".

Oh really? Would you please fill us in on that? You simply do not know what you are talking about.

----

Knife DNA: all DNA evidence is being revaluated by an independent lab which has the defences approval.

The DNA evidence BTW is only one factor in the case. Murder cases are decided all the time without DNA evidence.

If the DNA evidence is thrown out, the case will most likely stand on other issues: conflicting alibis, witnesses, lies, timelines, phone calls etc.

MidtownGuy
January 18th, 2011, 04:40 PM
^ Uh....Midtown... these are witnesses ( the jailed mobster and child murderer ) that the Amanda Knox crew has brought in. Whew.
no sh*t sherlock

MidtownGuy
January 18th, 2011, 04:53 PM
Up above you state that the witness: "has been found guilty of drug charges".

Oh really? Would you please fill us in on that? You simply do not know what you are talking about.When I made that comment, yesterday, it had been widely reported in the US (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/15/amanda-knox-defense-encou_n_809517.html) that the man was convicted.

9 Hours ago the Associated Press issued a correction:

"ROME — In a Jan. 15 story about a prosecution witness in the Perugia murder trial of U.S. college student Amanda Knox, The Associated Press, relying on information from a lawyer, erroneously reported that the witness, Antonio Curatolo, had been convicted on a drug charge. Curatolo has been ordered to stand trial on a drug charge, but has not been convicted."

So there ya go. No gotcha moment.


If the DNA evidence is thrown out, the case will most likely stand on other issues: conflicting alibis, witnesses, lies, timelines, phone calls etc.

Right. More B.S.

Fabrizio
January 18th, 2011, 06:23 PM
^ The DNA evidence is not a make-or-break issue in this case and it never was.

MidtownGuy
January 19th, 2011, 12:26 AM
^which is basically a repetition of the previous statement,


If the DNA evidence is thrown out, the case will most likely stand on other issues: conflicting alibis, witnesses, lies, timelines, phone calls etc. in other words,
More B.S.

If the DNA evidence is bunk, the motive is nonexistent, the scenario proposed for the murder ridiculous, the witnesses unreliable, and the evidence collection botched...and so on...others can do the math. You can believe whatever.

But we've been all through this before. Why bother rehashing...I'll save keystrokes and instead direct interested parties to earlier portions of the thread, where all of that has already been discussed.

As of now...an appeal is coming up. We'll just have to see where it goes from there.

Fabrizio
January 19th, 2011, 02:40 AM
Just in the first 24 hrs : conflicting alibis, inconsistencies in Knox's story, timing of computer activity, cell phone calls etc.... Her "the-black-man-did-it" defense alone would have gotten her years of prison anywhere else.

-----

A few weeks ago John Kercher, the father of the murdered girl made a statement to the Daily Mail. Below are the first few paragraphs. All through the trail, the Kercher family has conducted itself with class... in a dignified manner with little media attention. This is one of their rare statements about the case:

"Last week, I switched on my television to see the parents of the young woman convicted of taking my daughter’s life proclaiming her innocence. And, once again, I felt the pain and the anger and the raw grief resurface. Amanda Knox was found guilty of killing my daughter Meredith at the house they shared in Italy three years ago. Yet since that act of horrific violence, Knox, it seems, has been accorded the status of a minor celebrity. Sometimes it seems that there is no escape from her or her jaunty nickname, ‘Foxy Knoxy’ (doubly hurtful, for the way it trivialises the awfulness of her offence)."

"Last week, Knox’s parents were given star billing on the ITV breakfast show Daybreak, where they had free rein to profess their conviction that their daughter is not guilty. Kurt Knox and his ex-wife Edda Mellas have never expressed their condolences to our family for our grievous loss. There has been no letter of sympathy; no word of regret. Instead, I have watched them repeatedly reiterate the mantra of their daughter’s innocence. Alas, I fear there is more yet to come. Their TV appearance last week, trailed for two days as if it were some exclusive media coup, coincided with the resumption of Knox’s appeal against her conviction."

"This appeal, like the initial court case, will drag on for months, while the dark tunnel between my family and our ability to grieve for Meredith in peace becomes ever longer. If Knox doesn’t get the result she wants, our agony will be even more protracted: she may then take her case to Italy’s Supreme Court in Rome. Put simply, our ordeal could go on for years."

"Knox is one of three people convicted of killing my beautiful and talented daughter. It was a brutal murder. Meredith’s throat was slit, and she was stabbed to death. Knox and her former boyfriend, Italian Raffaele Sollecito, are serving jail sentences of 26 and 25 years respectively for their heinous crime. A third person, drifter Rudy Guede, convicted with them, is also in prison. Yet it is Knox who still exerts such a hold over the media. "

"As a journalist myself, I know the reason why. Knox is young, attractive and female. To many, she seems an unlikely killer. Yet to my family she is, unequivocally, culpable."

Full statement here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1334777/From-Meredith-Kerchers-father-passionate-attack-cult-Foxy-Knoxy.html

-----------------

Meridith's father, mother, and siblings:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/_44302090_family_pa-1.jpg

----

The Amanda Knox family posing for publicity photos outside of the house where Meridith Kercher was murdered:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199111/Revealed-Foxy-Knoxys-sisters-posing-happily-macabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html

Ninjahedge
January 19th, 2011, 08:06 AM
Sometimes when people have a lot to hide, they can't get their story strait.

Even when they are innocent.

MidtownGuy
January 19th, 2011, 10:26 AM
We keep getting so much nothing...preoccupation with matters of "class" and how much she smiled or not...my gosh a cartwheel....oh the "black man"...everything else except real evidence.

Fabrizio
January 19th, 2011, 04:43 PM
You really don't think murder trials can be built on circumstantial evidence? You think that prosecutors are stepping out of bounds by speculating and drawing up scenarios of what might have happened...or that doing so is odd? You believe that all witnesses presented must have no hint of crime in their past? Or that one unreliable witness taints the rest? You feel that bungled DNA samples (if proven to be true) would somehow be unique to this case...or doesn't happen elsewhere? You feel that DNA links are always necessary in a murder conviction?

Really?

MidtownGuy
January 19th, 2011, 05:18 PM
You really don't think murder trials can be built on circumstantial evidence? You think that prosecutors are stepping out of bounds by speculating and drawing up scenarios of what might have happened...or that doing so is odd? You believe that all witnesses presented must have no hint of crime in their past? Or that one unreliable witness taints the rest? You feel that bungled DNA samples (if proven to be true) would somehow be unique to this case...or doesn't happen elsewhere? You feel that DNA links are always necessary in a murder conviction?

Really? ^what in tarnation is that?

lmao.

Fabrizio
January 19th, 2011, 05:33 PM
You mean you just noticed that? I've always wondered what in tarnation they were too.

Look....another one: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/icon1copia.jpg

---

Anyway may we get back to my questions? :

You really don't think murder trials can be built on circumstantial evidence? You think that prosecutors are stepping out of bounds by speculating and drawing up scenarios of what might have happened...or that doing so is odd? You believe that all witnesses presented must have no hint of crime in their past? Or that one unreliable witness taints the rest? You feel that bungled DNA samples (if proven to be true) would somehow be unique to this case...or doesn't happen elsewhere? You feel that DNA links are always necessary in a murder conviction?

Really?

MidtownGuy
January 19th, 2011, 05:58 PM
your questions?
more like a conga line of little straw men.

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2011, 08:04 AM
The question is not whether someone can or cannot be convicted when these things are present, but can they be legitimately convicted when all of them are?

ZippyTheChimp
January 20th, 2011, 10:07 AM
The criminal justice system in much of continental Europe is Inquisitorial, unlike that in countries like the US and UK, that is Adversarial. The Italian inquisitorial Code of Criminal Procedure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure) of 1930 was amended in 1989, adopting some adversarial measures.

Also, the relationship between pretrial and trial proceedings, and the appeals process, are different. The appeals process in Italy allows the prosecution to appeal, which means a not-guilty verdict can be overruled. There was an attempt to change this, but the law was ruled unconstitutional.

In the case of Amanda Knox, the prosecution did not appeal, so at worst for the defense, the verdict would be upheld.

I don't know much about all this; one criminal code is complicated enough. Not much is written about this stuff in the press; it's boring, unless you're personally involved.

I found a scholarly analysis of the Inquisitorial v Adversarial systems:
http://www.lrc.justice.wa.gov.au/2publications/reports/P92-CJS/consults/1-3crimadvers.pdf [PDF]

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2011, 10:17 AM
Inquisitorial v Adversarial systems

Why do I get a picture of Mel Brooks dancing in my head......

ZippyTheChimp
January 20th, 2011, 10:31 AM
That's not the picture I get from the above post.

MidtownGuy
February 15th, 2011, 12:00 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110215/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_knox

Knox's parents indicted in Italy


PERUGIA, Italy – A lawyer says the parents of Amanda Knox, an American student convicted of murder in Italy, have been ordered to stand trial for alleging that Italian police abused their daughter.
Italian news agency ANSA said Curt Knox and Edda Mellas were indicted Tuesday in Perugia for libel. Lawyer Luciano Ghirga confirmed the indictment and said trial was set for July 4. He said the couple did not attend the hearing.
The charge stems from an interview they gave Britain's Sunday Times years ago in which the father alleged police had physically and verbally abused his daughter during questioning after Meredith Kercher's 2007 slaying, before Knox was arrested.
Police have denied harming Knox.
A family representative said there was no comment.


-----
What a P.O.S country! LMAO. Downright infantile!
It's the freaking middle ages over there.

Ninjahedge
February 15th, 2011, 01:33 PM
OMG, they are arrested for "insulting" the police?

Ain't that a pisser.

Fabrizio
February 15th, 2011, 03:07 PM
^ Uh... yes, Ninj: Amanda Knox's parents were arrested for insulting the police. News at 11.

-----

You all might want to take a look at defamation laws in Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

Knox's parents made the following claims to the Sunday Times in 2009 (they made similar claims to the American press as well): Amanda had not been assisted by an interpreter, she had not been given food or water, she was slapped, threatened, and abused verbally. This is not a vague allegation of police brutality but it is instead specifically against the reputations of 6 police officers.

The fact is: Knox's own lawyers have never claimed that any mistreatment took place, and they never filed any complaint.

I don't know how a similar situation would work over there by you all, but over here.... charges will be pressed.

Ninjahedge
February 15th, 2011, 03:19 PM
There's the thing Fab.

Our cops are allowed to be arses as much as yours in certain circles and certain situations where their guilt cannot be proven.

Classic "Their word against yours", only their word is always worth more (unless you have the money to say otherwise).

If someone accuses a cop of doing something and it is false, I believe they can only sue for damages if they actually brought that cop financial problems, and then it is a civil suit, not a criminal. If the cop was not punished or fined because of an accusation, there is no grounds for retaliatory punishment (by law that is, off the books is an entirely different thing).

IOW, if I said that a cop beat me in custody, they can't do anything to me if they did not and I did not actually press charges. Hurt feelings are an occupational hazzard for the cops here. They can't bring someone up on charges for that kind of thing unless there are extenuating circumstances.


If someone more familiar with US law can clarify (or correct me where I am wrong) I would appreciate it! (PS, not you Fab!! ;) )

Fabrizio
February 15th, 2011, 03:27 PM
"Hurt feelings are an occupational hazzard for the cops here."

Oh I see... in the US, falsely accusing a cop of beating you would be classified as "hurting his feelings". Got it.

Ninjahedge
February 15th, 2011, 04:19 PM
Yep, glad you see it now!


Um, that wasn't sarcastic or anything was it? I mean, if it WAS that would mean we were heading OT!!!!!



OMG!!!!!!!

Fabrizio
March 15th, 2011, 03:24 PM
An article that appeared in last Sunday's London Times written by Meredith Kercher's father John Kercher. John Kercher is an intellectual, a journalist and he writes eloquently. There's a lot to read here, but the article gets more pertinent to the thread after the words highlighted in bold:


To my knowledge nine books have been published about the Amanda Knox murder case, with one more on the way. There have been five television documentaries. A made-for-TV film was shown in America last month, and there are plans for a British film, possibly starring Colin Firth. The news media seem transfixed. Knox’s supporters post their views online and plan a “bowling fundraiser” next Sunday in Seattle, her home town.

There is someone missing from this obsession with “Foxy Knoxy”, as the 23-year-old student was quickly nicknamed in the press. Meredith Kercher, my daughter, was killed that night in Perugia, Italy, 3½ years ago. It’s time to tell her story — and the story of her family, for whom there are no appeals against Meredith’s death, but only a long, painful and extremely expensive emotional limbo as the Knox saga grinds its way through the Italian courts.

In December 2009 Knox and her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, were sentenced to 26 years and 25 years respectively for killing Meredith. An Ivorian drifter, Rudy Guede, had already been convicted at a fast-track trial and sentenced to 30 years, reduced on appeal to 16. We attended the sentencing of Knox and Sollecito in Perugia. As Meredith’s brother, Lyle, said afterwards, it was not a moment for celebration; more one of satisfaction that some verdict had been reached. But our agony did not finish there.

We would like to be able to remember Meredith for the loving, humorous and caring person she was, rather than a murder victim. But under Italian law Knox and Sollecito have a right to two appeals: one to the court in Perugia, which is in progress, and, if that should fail, a further one to the Supreme Court in Rome.

The result of the current appeal is not expected until September. Should it go against them, then at least a year or even years could pass as the second appeal is heard. This is the stuff of nightmares, compounded by the way that Knox has been turned into a celebrity and the murder into entertainment.

I saw the trailer for the American TV film about her and was horrified by the scene that purported to depict the killing of my daughter. It was removed before broadcast but Meredith was still shown with a bloody wound in her neck. Mez, as we called her, should not be remembered by the way she died but by how she was for the 21 years of her short life.

As a little girl she was funny, clever and extremely selfassured, with a wonderful singing voice. At about five she told me she wanted to be a pop star. When a girl with whom she was meant to do a duet at junior school fell sick, Meredith performed the song alone. Other parents came up afterwards to compliment her nerve and ability.

She wasn’t a show-off. Her talents often surfaced spontaneously — such as when she picked up a toy guitar at home, stuffed a cigarette in her mouth, pulled her hair down over her face, stuck a hat on her head and did an impression of Slash from Guns N’ Roses. It was hilarious.

As she became older, she showed high academic ability, winning a place at Leeds University to study European politics and Italian. She was meant to be on a four-year course that included a year’s study at an Italian university, but she discovered that, because of a mix-up, she had been put on one with no year abroad. She was horrified and fought for months to be reinstated — successfully.

Meredith loved Italy, having been there several times with her school and a couple of times on family holidays. At the end of one exchange trip near Naples, most of the English students were in tears at having to say goodbye to the Italian families they had stayed with. Meredith, however, was smiling “because I know that I’m going to return and that, some day, I’m going to live here”.

She had a choice of three cities for her year overseas: Rome, Milan and Perugia. She chose Perugia because of its medieval quarter and the hope that it would be easier to make friends there than in a big city.

She flew out in late August 2007, checked into a family hotel for three nights and went to the University for Foreigners to look for accommodation in the town, eventually finding a room in a cottage. She rang to tell me about it, saying two Italian girls already had rooms there and an American girl would be joining them later.

Meredith had lived with Arline, her mother, since our divorce in 1997, but we had spoken every evening on the telephone and she came to dinner with me after school every week. We continued our conversations every evening when she was in Italy. She told me about her studies, the wonderful restaurants she had been to and the places she was hoping to visit.

She came back from Italy for a weekend to clean the house for her mother, who was suffering renal failure. That was the sort of person Mez was — very caring, not simply to family and friends but to strangers too. Once, working part-time in a restaurant, she saw that a female customer with a young child had had too much to drink. Meredith paid for a cab to get them home safely.

This was the person who was savagely murdered on November 1, 2007. I had spoken to Meredith that afternoon. It was Ognissanti, All Saints’ Day, a public holiday in Italy. She told me she would be out that evening but would talk to me the next day. My last words to her were: “I love you.”

The following evening her mother called, telling me that a British student had been killed in Perugia. I never dreamt that it was Meredith, and so I telephoned her number to see if she knew anything. At first I got an answering machine. After dialling a dozen times or more, I heard a ringing tone at the other end. That was a relief. I assumed that she wasn’t answering because she was in a different room.

An hour later, still getting no reply, I became worried and rang one of the national newspapers that I write for. Its foreign desk told me, after checking with Italy, that the police had found the dead girl’s mobile phones and had been in touch with people in London.

I was relieved. Whoever the poor girl was, she couldn’t be Meredith, because her family had presumably been informed. Half an hour later, however, I was told that the name going round Italy was Meredith. I was in shock. A friend drove me to Arline’s house. After a couple of hours Meredith’s picture came up on the television; by then the Foreign Office had confirmed that it was our daughter.

We flew to Italy to identify her. The press outside the morgue was crying, as were the police, and I couldn’t go in to see her. I wanted to remember her as she had always been. I had seen her only a few weeks earlier, when she had been on a shopping trip to London for winter clothes to take back to Italy. She had been so proud of her new boots. That was how I wanted to remember her.

Then the long legal process began: investigation, arrests, trials and now the appeal. The defence lawyers are contesting the DNA evidence from the alleged murder weapon, a knife found in a drawer at Sollecito’s apartment. They say the DNA samples — Meredith’s on the tip of the blade, Knox’s on the handle — are too small to be admissible as evidence. They also argue that DNA on a clasp from Meredith’s bra, found in her room six weeks after her body was discovered, could have been contaminated.

This is disputed by the top forensics team from Rome, led by Patrizia Stefanoni, an internationally respected forensic scientist. The fact that recently, in Britain, someone was convicted on 17-year-old DNA evidence is ignored by the defence.

Knox’s supporters in America, while concentrating on the DNA, do not seem to be aware of the huge body of other evidence that was given. Under Italian law a judge has to write an official report on how a verdict was reached. Judge Giancarlo Massei, who presided at the trial of Knox and Sollecito, produced a 400-page report.

It is quite revealing, showing that — although Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s genetic material were found mixed together in several locations in the bathroom — much more than the DNA evidence was responsible for the decision to convict. For example:

Sollecito claimed to have been working at his computer on the evening of the murder, but computer records show that it was inactive. Both Sollecito’s and Knox’s mobile phones were switched off that night.

A witness saw the couple several times in the vicinity of the cottage on the night of the killing, although they said they were at Sollecito’s home. Their alibis changed nine times, with Sollecito saying that he could not remember whether Knox was with him all evening. They even hinted at putting the blame on each other. Apart from Meredith, only Knox and two other flatmates, who were away at the time, had keys to the cottage.

Sollecito’s naked footprint was found on a bathmat in the cottage; and Knox’s footprints were found outside Meredith’s room, in the passageway and in another room, where police believe a break-in was staged. (These footprints were revealed with luminol, a chemical used by forensic investigators to detect traces of blood at crime scenes, as it glows blue in reaction with the iron in haemoglobin. It can show bloody footprints even after attempts to clean them away.) nAs for the “break-in”, the police immediately noticed that glass from a broken window was on top of clothes supposedly scattered by an intruder. The glass would have been under the clothes if the window had been broken before the room was ransacked. No valuables were taken, and a real burglar would have found far easier access to the house without breaking a window.

Sollecito told the police that nothing had been taken from the room supposedly broken into. But how would he know? It was used by an Italian girl, not present on the night of the killing, who had not yet checked it out for herself.

Knox described the position of Meredith’s body and how she had died, although she had not been able to see into Meredith’s room when the door was broken down by the police.

There are many more factors, almost 20 in all, among them the suspicion that there may have been something ritualistic about Meredith’s death. The prosecutor was criticised for mentioning this, but she was killed on the eve of the Day of the Dead, November 2. Sollecito was said to have Japanese manga comics that described the rape and killing of female vampires. Meredith had been dressed as a vampire to celebrate Hallowe’en.

In addition, the Supreme Court in Rome has recently issued its report on Guede’s appeal. Pointing out that there were more than 40 wounds on Meredith’s body, it found that he did not act alone and that two others were involved. There is also a suggestion that her body and the room were rearranged after the killing.

Guede, who admitted having been in the cottage on the night of the murder, fled the premises and went to a disco before escaping to Germany, where he was arrested. So who cleaned up the house in an attempt to remove all traces of their presence that night?

While not wanting to complain, I find it odd that the British government will not help us pay for travelling expenses to the courts in Italy, which we have had to attend on five occasions so far for the trial and appeal.

The British consul in Florence was marvellous, providing emotional support and translation facilities, and two MPs have tried to get us financial backup; but the Foreign Office says it does not pay for costs of attending court hearings abroad.

Each European Union country is supposed to provide some sort of compensation for the family of anyone from another EU nation killed on its territory; but Italy did not sign up to this, so nothing has been forthcoming from Rome. We have had to fund everything ourselves. It adds up — about £40,000 so far.

In court our lawyer demanded €21m (£18m) in compensation from the defendants, but this was a purely symbolic amount, seen in Italy as a way of demonstrating the severity of the case. Anyone assuming we received such a sum is under a misapprehension.

It is now into the fourth year since Meredith’s death, and the pressure of grief is still upon us. It has been constant torment, but the memory of Meredith will continue to stay with everyone. Leeds University planted an oak tree in her memory; and, with our family, students released balloons bearing messages for her. Her school, Old Palace in Croydon, planted a cherry tree for her. Every year, on the anniversary of her death, at Christmas Eve and on her birthday (December 28), our family and Meredith’s friends go to the cemetery to leave flowers and cards for her.

Recently I unearthed a book I wrote for Meredith. She was 14 and I was visiting her at her mother’s house. When the time came for me to leave, she suddenly asked me to tell her a bedtime story. I laughed and said I had told her one from when she two until she was 12, and I had run out of ideas. But she was insistent. So I told her I would go home, write something and read it down the telephone to her.

That’s what I did, with her as the lead character, and she loved it and wanted more. So I continued and it turned into a novel, The Strange Case of Miss Carla. I like to think that this is my tribute to a wonderful daughter.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/

MidtownGuy
March 20th, 2011, 12:55 PM
What a joke.

There's a lot of crap in that "article". You have to feel sorry for the parents of Kercher, but they're sadly misguided and fixated on a witch hunt.

From the mention of the "witness" (a criminal bum) who saw them in the "vicinity" to the descriptions of Meredith (She was also working on a cure for cancer and had nearly figured out that pesky problem of world hunger. If not for evil Foxy Knoxy, we would all be basking in the glow of Meredith's next altruistic and angelic act of perfection), you have to read this with more than skepticism.

Fabrizio
March 20th, 2011, 02:23 PM
On March 7th the Sunday Times UK also featured John Follian's book "Death in Perugia" with an online Q&A.

Excerpts:

Q: So let’s cut to the chase, do you think Amanda Knox to be guilty or has she been wrongly convicted? And what do you base your opinion on?

A:Under Italian law, Knox’s conviction doesn’t become definitive until she has exhausted her chances of appeal - meaning the current appeal trial and a possible Supreme Court trial.

Having said that, I do think she played a role in the murder, along with her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede. That’s an opinion based on the evidence against her including the staged burglary, the DNA samples involving all three, and her behaviour at the police station

Q: Can Knox be thought of as credible when saying she had been assaulted and asked questions under duress when being interviewed in light of the Facebook comments and images of swords and rituals?

A: I think it’s hard to accept that she accused an innocent man - Patrick Lumumba, the owner of the bar where she worked - simply because the police supposedly “pressured” her into doing so.

When she appeared in court and was questioned at length by the prosecutor over this, she didn’t come up with a convincing explanation. Plus there’s the fact that the day after the police interrogation, she repeated the scenario of Lumumba killing Meredith at the cottage.

Q:What do you expect to be the outcome of the Amanda Knox appeal which has been delayed so forensics can carry out a review of the evidence used to convict her? When do you think we will hear the result? And do you think there is the possibility that the forensic evidence was contaminated?

A:Given that more than 20 judges have so far ruled that AK is guilty, I think the appeal court will head the same way - although it could reduce both the sentences for both her and Sollecito.

But no one thinks the outcome is certain - the key hearing will be in late May when the court-appointed experts report back on their review of the DNA evidence found on the kitchen knife believed to be the murder weapon, and on Meredith’s bra clasp in her bedroom.

Yes contamination is in theory always possible but I see nothing to indicate that happened here.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/

About John Follian: http://www.harpercollins.com/authors/20729/John_Follain/index.aspx

----

Besides Follian there are only 2 other American reporters fluent in Italian who actually follwed the case day by day, they are Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau (of the Daily Beast) Their conclusion? Knox guilty.

MidtownGuy
March 20th, 2011, 02:29 PM
the DNA samples involving all threeyeah right...more crap.

Fabrizio
March 20th, 2011, 02:38 PM
Andrea Vogt in the NYPost Feb 20th:

Knox is no innocent

Excerpts:

"I haven’t seen the broadcast of Lifetime’s Amanda Knox movie, and I doubt I will. The reality of this case is bad enough without a fictional version. Were there problems in the investigative phase of the case? Yes. Was she unfairly stereotyped and misconstrued? Yes. Was some of the forensic evidence shaky? Yes. Do all of the above mean she is innocent? No."

"I’ve been so close to Amanda Knox in the courtroom over the last three years, I could read her doodles, notice her raising a single eyebrow at her boyfriend, Raffaele, and overhear small talk with friends, family, prison guards and translators."

"That said, the US State Department has been monitoring the case as more than two dozen judges have considered the evidence and determined (to varying degrees) that Knox was involved. She remains in prison on precautionary detention, which Italian law allows when a judge has ruled there is “grave indication of guilt” or the risk of flight or commiting a crime again.

http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/tv/knox_is_no_innocent_AiEwIkzYe0WMOlJ44iY1bI

MidtownGuy
March 20th, 2011, 02:49 PM
*yawn*
can hardly wait for the next emergency cut-n-paste restating the same ol' BS.
Anything new? If not, we'll be grateful for a good cannoli recipe...so tired of German donuts.

Fabrizio
March 20th, 2011, 03:12 PM
An interview with Andrea Vogt about the trial. It's in 2 parts and very informative:

PT1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u0cePKgNA
PT2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuesmt-VIis&feature=related

Info about Andrea Vogt:http://www.thefreelancedesk.com/

MidtownGuy
March 20th, 2011, 03:15 PM
So...anything there we haven't seen yet?

MidtownGuy
March 29th, 2011, 11:52 AM
Well, it turns out that "Toto" ( the homeless, heroin-taking, serial witnessing , "Christian anarchist") .... couldn't figure out which day was Halloween in court, and put his whole testimony where it always should have been: in the crapper.

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2011, 12:34 PM
So is the "appeal court" the real trial?

Much different than the US, where more emphasis is placed on evidence in the initial trial, and the appeal process is more about a legal examination of the lower court trial.

MidtownGuy
March 29th, 2011, 12:48 PM
It seems that the way their system is arranged makes it effectively end up that way. What they paraded as evidence during the trial is just shocking.

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2011, 03:55 PM
Midtown wrote: "Well, it turns out that "Toto" ( the homeless, heroin-taking, serial witnessing , "Christian anarchist") .... couldn't figure out which day was Halloween in court"

Ask any Italian the date of Halloween. As this witness was asked.

How will they respond? 9 out of 10 will draw a blank.

Why?

Because, although in the last 10 years it has become popular with young people to celebrate, it is not an Italian holiday.

The point is not that he did not know when Halloween is... but that he claims to have seen people in costumes and masks the night of Nov 1st which is All Souls Day here in Italy .... where there is less likely to be festivities, but not out of the question.

---


It seems that the way their system is arranged makes it effectively end up that way. What they paraded as evidence during the trial is just shocking.


Are you implying that what was "paraded" as evidence here was some how unusual, or different, than it would be elsewhere?

In trials, evidence is "paraded" by both the defense and the prosecution. Some is considered worthy, others not.

The decion on Amanda Knox was not determined by the testimony of one witness. Besides others called in as witnesses, (listen to the Andrea Voght interview posted above: there were about 100 people interviewed) there were things like conflicting alibis, Knox accussing her boss, computer and internet usage, cell phone activity etc. Things that the defense was unable to knock down.

These things are evidence, they are added up and conclusions are drawn. 20 judges have gone over the case as well as the jury... all of them (100%) feel that Knox was involved in the murder.

And if you feel that our system is designed to railroad people into jail, consider that Italy has 66 inmates for every 1 million inhabitants (similar to Denmark). By comparison, the US has a prison population of more than 750 inmates for every 1 million inhabitants... 12 times the one in Italy. In your opinion, which one is more likely to do the railroading?

Consider too that this low prison rate is combined with a much lower over all crime rate here as well. The result of a system that places emphasis on rehabilitaion rather than incarceration.

But if there are things that still seem odd about our system (a system similar to France)...there will always be, in the end, a difference between cultures...just try and explain to people over here how someone can be found "not guilty" in criminal trail for murder ...but guilty in a "wrongful death civil trial" ...for the same murder.

Ninjahedge
March 30th, 2011, 08:22 AM
Fab, although you have some good points, you also have to look at what the US jails people on these days.

The "3 strikes" rule has 3 time pot smokers (caught 3 times that is) in jail with serial murderers. We somehow think it is better to put people on ice than to try to solve their problems.


But when it comes to cases like this, murder and the like, I would bet that the US is not any more cell-happy than other countries.


Besides, is Amanda being tried in the US? Also, in all fairness, how is the trial being covered? Is it as bad as it is here in the states with people more concerned about the flash than the actual stuff that backs it up?

ZippyTheChimp
March 30th, 2011, 09:55 AM
News reporting is generally the same anywhere. A failure in the first trial was Amanda Knox's attorney not setting ground rules (or they were ignored) for behavior. The first perception at a criminal trial is one of guilt; the attorney's first job is to mitigate that. I read that her parents have shut up during the appeal.

The "drug addict's" testimony is brought into question because he said that on the night of the murder he saw the two defendants engaged in conversation near the crime scene. He mentioned buses going by. Bus company officials have stated that on the night of the murder, no buses were running.

Fabrizio
March 30th, 2011, 10:09 AM
The bus company officials are from the private "disco busses" that many clubs provide to keep people from drinking and driving. The public busses that pass through the piazza were running. Was he confusing the two? The prosecutors and lawyer for the Kercher's still feel he is credible.

Fabrizio
March 30th, 2011, 11:15 AM
A few things to consider about the US perception of this case.

Andrea Vogt reporting on the Knox "team":

"When Knox departed Seattle for Italy in fall 2007, she left behind her family and a network of friends, some of whom are now attempting to insert themselves into the legal drama.

The "Friends of Amanda" host fundraisers and lobby lawmakers. They brought in Seattle defense attorney Anne Bremner, a former deputy prosecutor turned cable TV regular, to make the case to the media here and abroad.

Heavey, the Superior Court judge and Knox family friend, sent a plea on his official letterhead to the Italian judiciary requesting that the case be moved from Perugia.

Kercher's slaying rocked Europe, hitting hardest in her native England. Media outlets, particularly the London tabloids, used details of Knox's life -- a photo taken of her with a machine gun, a violent, sexually charged short story she'd posted online -- to paint a portrait of the young woman at odds with the girl known to her family and friends.

Shortly after her arrest, Knox's family hired Seattle public relations specialist David Marriott. Along with Bremner and others, Marriott has waged a polished, aggressive campaign to present a more sympathetic picture of Knox while assailing Italian authorities, particularly prosecutor Mignini.

Besides raising thousands of dollars for Knox's defense, supporters in Seattle are trying to publicize their theory of the crime -- that Guede killed Kercher after breaking into the apartment the women shared.

They've taken their fight to editors and the airwaves, with Friends of Amanda appearing on the "Today" show, network news programs and Italy's leading nightly news show, "Porta Porta." Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., who climbed Mount Rainier with Heavey in 2007, has discussed the case with Italian authorities.

Knox's supporters point to a lack of strong DNA evidence and Mignini's mishandling of another high-profile case. But most, when asked, say their skepticism has a more basic root: They know the defendant and are sure she's no killer.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/395681_knox12.html

Add to this the Knox family making the rounds of every chat show possible from Today to Oprah to Larry King.

ZippyTheChimp
March 30th, 2011, 11:15 AM
Curatolo lived in the Piazza Grimano for years. He testified that there were students in the square taking shuttle buses to the disco. The disco was closed that night and the shuttle buses weren't running.

This testimony is important because it's the only thing that contradicts the defendants' contention that they were elsewhere that night.

Fabrizio
March 30th, 2011, 11:48 AM
This seems to be a balanced report on the issue from the SeattleTimes:

Excerpt:

"The bus detail is relevant because on Oct. 31, several shuttle buses took people to clubs around Perugia for Halloween parties, while the following night discos were either closed or had a slower night. The prosecution, however, maintains that even on Nov. 1 tourist buses, public transport and possibly shuttle buses for some discos could have been operating.

Prosecutors insisted Curatolo remained reliable, if not very precise.

Prosecutor Manuela Comodi said the confusion between Oct. 31 and Nov. 1 is a moot point as it has already been ascertained that Knox was somewhere else — in a pub where she worked — on Oct. 31 and so could not have been seen in the square.

"What's certain is that she couldn't have been there on Halloween night," Comodi said. "There is no such thing as a perfect witness, save for one who has seen the crime. What matters is that a witness doesn't lie, and why should Curatolo lie?"

Francesco Maresca, a lawyer for the Kerchers, who are civil plaintiffs in the case, told reporters that Curatolo was as reliable now as during the first trial. He noted that Curatolo said it was not raining when he saw Knox and Sollecito, which would confirm Nov. 1, since it wasn't raining that night but it had been raining on Oct. 31.

Full article: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2014606179&st_app=ip_news_lite

ZippyTheChimp
March 30th, 2011, 12:55 PM
Whether or not a witness has a motive to lie "is what matters" is an absurd remark for a prosecutor to make. There are other things, probably more common than lying, that make testimony not-credible.

A homeless man, maybe ignored by society, is suddenly the center of attention.

Fabrizio
March 30th, 2011, 03:38 PM
I don't know the particular life of the witness in the Knox case, but my town has a similar clochard. He goes by the name of Jesus. He claims to have been born in Russia, speaks with a heavy German accent. He dresses in old hippy garb, has long scraggily hair and beard. Not only is he homeless but he has no documents and no official residency, but he is an exception and is allowed to stay. He is proud of his lifestyle. He is a fixture in my town's main square and well respected. He is also a friend of the cops... they often depend on his observations (let me add that besides some weed or beer now and then, he's mostly sober). I say hello to him every day and now and then I'll ask... what was the loud argument I heard yesterday? Who broke that window? When is that new restaurant over there going to open? Have you seen Mauro yet this morning? Whether or not the witness in the Knox case has a history of being a reliable source I don't know, but Jesus would be given consideration.

Jesus on his perch:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/jesus.jpg

MidtownGuy
April 6th, 2011, 02:07 PM
"Ask any Italian the date of Halloween. As this witness was asked.

How will they respond? 9 out of 10 will draw a blank."the exchange:

Judge: So, you saw Amanda and Raffaele? Curatolo: Yeah, it was Halloween when I saw them. I know this because I saw the kids getting on the disco buses all dressed up in costumes. That's how I also know what time it was.

Judge: When is Halloween? Curatolo: I don't know. Maybe end of October or beginning of November, I think.

Judge: You aren't sure? What about your case now? You are in prison, correct? How long will you be there? Curatolo: I don't know. I don't understand the case against me really. I understand nothing.

Judge: Ok, so how did you live in the park? Were you always there? Curatolo: Always, yes. I never left. I just lived there. On a bench mostly.

(questions regarding where Toto poops omitted)

Judge: Never mind. So, are you certain the buses were disco buses and not tour buses? Curatolo: Yes, definitely disco buses. They look different from other buses.

Prosecution: No, no, you must be mistaken? Curatolo: No. I am certain they were disco buses.

Judge: Do you take drugs? Curatolo: Yes, heroin.

Judge: Were you taking drugs on that night? Curatolo: I always take drugs, so most certainly I was high that night? but that's ok. heroin does not make you hallucinat e or anything.

Judge: Guards, take him away. I am done.
---

:) so is Curatolo's reliability.

---


"The decion on Amanda Knox was not determined by the testimony of one witness. Besides others called in as witnesses, (listen to the Andrea Voght interview posted above: there were about 100 people interviewed)....accusing her boss...these things are evidence..."


Oh boy...about listening to that interview: when I saw the date of 2009 I knew there would be nothing new there, so that's why I asked "anything new?" But okay... I took 15 minutes to listen to the darn thing. Nothing new. I heard about a million statements by Vogt starting with "I think..." and very little in the discussion of evidence except a brief discussion of the knife which illuminated nothing. Vogt can do as many interviews and articles as she wants, talking about "I think...I think...I think..." but I wouldn't use her as a go-to for hard explanations about the evidence in this case. She did give a lot of information on procedure in Italian courts, but again, nothing that hasn't been repeated many times.

So, there were 100 people interviewed. The thing is, none were witnesses to the crime. From what I gather there was a nuts deaf lady who heard a scream or something? The dubious shop keeper...a confused and high heroin addict. Who are we missing?

Look, there are loads of sites online that debate the case in minute detail, more so than I have the energy or time to do here. My real desire is to simply see the two young people, who may have all their best years robbed from them, go free. One of the good things about the Italian system is that Amanda gets to exhaust the appeals process. I hope this time around that the evidence (or lack thereof) will outweigh the hearsay.

Something that really stands out though, and I haven't heard an explanation anywhere, much less here at WNY... is that Guede's DNA was all over the murder scene in Meredith's bedroom, yet there was no DNA or evidence of any kind belonging to Amanda. Not so much as a single hair or skin cell was found at the murder scene.

Did she float around, I wonder? If we're going to discuss this at all, shouldn't there be a credible theory to explain this, at least?

I mean hey...after smoking some weed out there in Perugia, did she literally float above Meredith with a knife? Or, do we believe that she and Rafaele somehow, incredibly, bleached out their own presence from the bedroom while keeping Rudy Guede's DNA separate and intact? Come on.

Fabrizio
April 6th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Would you please post your source for that "exchange" between Curatolo and the judge?

-----

"yet there was no DNA or evidence of any kind belonging to Amanda. "

And where did you get this info?

MidtownGuy
April 7th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Would you please post your source for that "exchange" between Curatolo and the judge?
I think the part where it says "questions regarding where Toto poops omitted" makes it perfectly clear this didn't come from a serious source, Sherlock :D.

In the absence of providing an official court transcript though, several news outlets were in fact giving summaries of the exchange that don't seem far from that.

-------

Let me say this again, in a way that couldn't possibly be misunderstood:

There wasn't so much as a single DNA sample, strand of hair, fingerprint, footprint, or anything else…nada, zero, zip… discovered in the murder room and proven to be Amanda's.

My source is every article, interview, and video out there that I have ever read, watched or listened to. In that precious interview from 2009 that fab posted, even the Vogt woman didn't maintain otherwise. Apparently fab has something else, something the prosecution itself doesn't claim to have?

So back to the mystery: did she float through the room, or selectively remove her own DNA from the room while leaving Guede's DNA intact? or perhaps she committed the murder through telekinesis?

lofter1
April 7th, 2011, 01:00 AM
In the USA an accessory to a murder is fully as guilty of the crime as the person who stuck the knife into the victim.

(This ^ is not in direct relation to the Knox case, but no specific evidence showing her presence at the scene would be needed to implicate and convict a similar accomplice.)

MidtownGuy
April 7th, 2011, 01:14 AM
Lofter, if she wasn't in the room, how did she violently murder Kercher with a knife there? I don't know what or why you're talking about this accessory blah blah.:confused:

MidtownGuy
April 7th, 2011, 01:19 AM
Telekinesis, anyone?

Fabrizio
April 19th, 2011, 07:50 AM
Oh boy...about listening to that interview: when I saw the date of 2009 I knew there would be nothing new there, so that's why I asked "anything new?" But okay... I took 15 minutes to listen to the darn thing. Nothing new. I heard about a million statements by Vogt starting with "I think..." and very little in the discussion of evidence except a brief discussion of the knife which illuminated nothing. Vogt can do as many interviews and articles as she wants, talking about "I think...I think...I think..." but I wouldn't use her as a go-to for hard explanations about the evidence in this case.

It is a live interview. She was being asked her opinions.

"I think it was a fair trial". Etc.

"I think" ...is what is called for...it is perfectly fine.

If someone like Vogt who actually attended the trial, speaks fluent Italian and has sterling credentials is not a good source... there is always The Daily Beast's Barbie Nadeau, the only other American journalist who attended the entire trial.

Both believe Knox is quilty.

But let's take your assertion as the true one: a court in Europe sends an American citizen to 26 years in prison on no evidence.... on just hearsay.

That's quite something.

I wonder why the US State Department has not stepped in? They monitored the case and have made no objections. None.

Hillary Clinton and Maria Cantwell both initially made statements about the case saying they would look into it. That was 2 years ago. And not a word since.

The American Embassy in Rome has also scrutinized the case.... and there have been no objections reported.

I wonder why?

Ninjahedge
April 19th, 2011, 08:20 AM
Both believe Knox is quilty.

Quilty until proven upholstered.

MidtownGuy
April 19th, 2011, 08:21 AM
Again: did she float through the room, or selectively remove her own DNA from the room while leaving Guede's DNA intact? ANY theory to explain this, other than Amanda could not have been in the murder room?

Fabrizio
April 19th, 2011, 10:42 AM
According to the forensic experts who tested: there was DNA evidence found in the room: on a bra clasp, bloody foot prints. In the house, Knox's blood was found mixed with Kercher's.

The defense team claims that the collection of evidence was botched. The proceedures used are being reviewed. Results will be at the end of May.

The defense does not dispute that Knox's blood was found mixed with Kercher's near the broken window in their roommate's room. Even their forensic expert testified in court that the blood found there is Knox's. It is mixed with Kercher's and there is really no good explaination for it.

But let's take your word for it: there is no DNA evidence in the murder room.

That means Knox is not guilty.... right?

MidtownGuy
April 19th, 2011, 12:06 PM
According to the forensic experts who tested: there was DNA evidence found in the room: on a bra clasp, bloody foot prints. In the house, Knox's blood was found mixed with Kercher's.you're right in that DNA evidence was found in the room: Guede's. Not Amandas. Can you get that straight or not?
In the house, her "blood" was NOT found mixed with Kercher's. It was her DNA, and it was in other parts of the house where it wouldn't be unusual since she lived there.

"It is mixed with Kercher's and there is really no good explaination for it. "But there are possible explanations. Unlike the lack of Amanda's DNA that I am talking about in the murder room. You obviously can't provide a SINGLE scenario that explains there being no DNA of Amanda in the murder room if she committed the violent murder. Guede's DNA was plentiful but not Amanda's. Explain that.


But let's take your word for itYou don't have to take MY word for it that there was no DNA evidence of Amanda in the murder room. That is the reality which even the persecution does not dispute.

MidtownGuy
April 19th, 2011, 12:12 PM
And I do mean PERsecution.

Fabrizio
April 19th, 2011, 12:45 PM
"...her "blood" was NOT found mixed with Kercher's. It was her DNA, and it was in other parts of the house where it wouldn't be unusual since she lived there. "

Her blood was found mixed with Kerchers:

Barbie Nadeau for "The Daily Beast": 10 Questions for Amanda Knox:

"Why were you bleeding? Your lawyers agree with the prosecution’s findings that at least one of the spots of Meredith’s blood found in the house where she was killed had your blood mixed with it. Your mother told me that you had your period. Your stepfather told others that your ear piercings were infected. Which was it?"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-29/amanda-knox-10-questions-for-the-convicted-murderer/


------

"You obviously can't provide a SINGLE scenario that explains there being no DNA of Amanda in the murder room if she committed the violent murder."

Must she have killed Kercher to be convicted of murder?

What do the findings of Sollecito's DNA in the murder room indicate? Doesn't Amanda claim to have spent the night together with him at his apartment?

Fabrizio
April 20th, 2011, 08:04 AM
^ and speaking of Sollecito.... you gotta love this photo of him he had posted on his blog... holding a cleaver and a bottle of bleach... ooops!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/001-4.jpg

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:08 PM
Her blood was found mixed with Kerchers:

WRONG. IT was DNA, not blood.

Investigators found the mixed DNA of Meredith and Amanda in a total of six samples among dozens that were taken. Three of these samples were from the bathroom that was shared by Amanda and Meredith. The other two housemates used a different bathroom. Mixed DNA was also found on swabs taken from Amanda's room and a latent shoe print in the hallway. A swab from Filomena's room revealed Meredith's DNA with what appears to be a very weak profile for Amanda.

All of the mixed DNA samples from the bathroom were visible bloodstains. Most likely they were composed of Meredith's blood mixed with an organic residue containing Amanda's DNA. No test was performed to determine if any of these samples contained the blood of both Meredith and Amanda, and there is no evidence that any of them did.


The other three mixed DNA samples were taken from latent stains revealed with luminol. No test was performed to confirm the presence of blood in any of these samples."

The prosecutor has tried to insinuate that these findings are incriminating. The most plausible explanation is that the mixed DNA is simply a result of cohabitation. As an example for the sake of comparison, investigators used luminol in Raffaele's apartment and found a latent stain with the mixed DNA of him and Amanda. Here is an example that you can relate to in your own home. If you cut your finger and your blood lands on a sink in a bathroom shared by other person in your house, you will get the exact same result. Your DNA will be mixed with the DNA from the other person that also used the bathroom. All it means is that two people have been sharing the same space.

Learn something. (http://injusticeinperugia.blogspot.com/p/mixed-dna-not-mixed-blood.html)

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:09 PM
Must she have killed Kercher to be convicted of murder?

The prosecution is saying she killed Kercher with a kitchen knife. Which is it?

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:10 PM
"You obviously can't provide a SINGLE scenario that explains there being no DNA of Amanda in the murder room if she committed the violent murder."

Let us know when you come up with an answer instead of more questions.

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:14 PM
What do the findings of Sollecito's DNA in the murder room indicate?

If you're talking about the ONE place Sollecito's DNA was found, on a bra clasp that had been kicked around the room for 46 days until it was covered in dust before being taken and tested...that's really funny.

Fabrizio
April 20th, 2011, 12:14 PM
^ What is the news source of that article? Who is reporting it? ( Post#237)


----

"You obviously can't provide a SINGLE scenario that explains there being no DNA of Amanda in the murder room if she committed the violent murder."

10 Questions for Amanda Knox:
"5. Why weren’t your and Raffaele’s fingerprints found in your house after the murder if the two of you had spent time there that morning and the day before? Only one half-print on a glass in the kitchen has been attributed to you, yet you have claimed that you took a shower there that morning. How did you spend so much time there and leave virtually no trace?"

-----


If you're talking about the ONE place Sollecito's DNA was found, on a bra clasp that had been kicked around the room for 46 days until it was covered in dust before being taken and tested...that's really funny.

^ Kicked around for 46 days? Not true. But still: how did it get there.... and what was it doing there?

But what's really funny is that the DNA evidence regarding Knox and Sollicito is not valid ....but Guedes is.

It was the same police, lab and investigators.

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:22 PM
I'm getting a feeling of deja vu here, fabby....you and I specifically have been through all this before.

How about new stuff: If new events take place during the appeals, like the hilarious testimony of Curatolo or another test showing something suspicious about the DNA, I will gladly post it here and discuss.

If other people want to discuss new things, do let's. But I see no point is rehashing the whole previous case with YOU...why should I? Just scroll yourself back to post #42, many pages ago, and start reading again. Occupy yourself while the next bowl of pasta is boiling.

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:26 PM
But what's really funny is that the DNA evidence regarding Knox and Sollicito is not valid ....but Guedes is.This statement shows an embarrassing lack of understanding on your part regarding the nature, ownership, and amount of the different samples collected. Please educate yourself before running your mouth all the time.

Fabrizio
April 20th, 2011, 12:31 PM
"This statement shows an embarrassing lack of understanding..."

"Please educate yourself before running your mouth all the time...."


Meanwhile: continue posting from blogs.


----

"How about new stuff"

^ The newest stuff is that Italy's Supreme Court in the Guede trial has ruled that 3 people where involved in the murder. 3 people. The Supreme Court.

Funny that it has gone unnoticed in the US press.

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:36 PM
Meanwhile continue posting from blogs. Hilarious, since the link you posted at the Daily Beast is filed under blogs-and-stories. LMAO!!

Fabrizio
April 20th, 2011, 12:44 PM
Nadeau is an actual journalist and columnist for the Daily Beast for whom she covers the trial and attends the proceedings. It is not a self-created amature blog.

Paul Krugman has a blog for the NYTimes. What's your point?

Who wrote the article you posted and what are their credentials?

Or is it sort of like "The Exchange" you posted earlier?

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 12:49 PM
"Meanwhile, keep posting from blogs." "Actual...amateur...the US press..." Ever more distractions.
Answer my question first: how could the murder room be completely devoid of Knox's DNA if she committed a bloody murder there, but Guede's is all over the murder scene? How?

lofter1
April 20th, 2011, 01:09 PM
It's been pointed out over and over that one need not be present at the actual scene of death to be guilty of a murder.

MidtownGuy
April 20th, 2011, 01:13 PM
Like it's been pointed out, over and over again to you Lofter, that the persecution is saying she WAS present at the actual scene. They are saying she did the stabbing with a kitchen knife. You can't have it both ways.

Fabrizio
April 20th, 2011, 01:25 PM
"Ever more distractions."

^ Distractions are postings from amateur blogs.

Knox's DNA and the crime scene: what the prosecution presented and the defense the Knox team countered with are in the 450 page report (that has been translated into English) by the Italian court. I don't know why Knox's DNA was not found in the room, or the explaination the prosecution gives. The Prosecution claims a foot print there belongs to her. Both sides agree there was a clean-up. And DNA would also depend on the dynamics of the crime. The prosecution claims her DNA was found on the murder weapon (lab proceedings are being reviewed). Remeber too: the entire house is cosidered the crime scene... and Knox's blood was found mixed with Kerhers where the window was broken in what the police say was a staged break in.

In the end her conviction is part of part of a larger whole of which the DNA only plays a part.