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View Full Version : New York State is a failure



rhodescholar
December 18th, 2009, 10:42 PM
This article is a MUST READ for every NY resident, it is living proof that the current tax structure and anti-business environment is totally unsustainable.

All of those supporting ever-higher taxes to pay for public union employees and their obscene, unconscionable salaries and benefits packages need a does of reality - the game is up:

http://www.empirecenter.org/files/MigrationReport.Red.pdf

"The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource—people. From 2000 to 2008, in both absolute and relative terms, New York experienced the nation's largest loss of residents to other states—a net domestic migration outflow of over 1.5 million, or 8 percent of its population at the start of the decade."

rhodescholar
December 18th, 2009, 10:52 PM
And if that report doesn't get you sick, this one HAS to:

http://data.lohud.com/labor/retire_form.php

$200,000 per year as a f--king retiree? WTF?!?!?!?!

Look at the annual pensions of these people, and that is just in Westchester!!!

God almighty, and I wondered what happens to all of that money coming into the state in taxes - those pensions are totally insane!

lofter1
December 18th, 2009, 10:56 PM
Funded ^ by the "Manhattan Institute for Policy Research (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Res earch)" ...

A group which has no agenda (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/manhattan-institute-policy-research) whatsoever.

lofter1
December 18th, 2009, 11:02 PM
$200,000 per year as a f--king retiree?

Look at the annual pensions of these people, and that is just in Westchester!!!

The top two on that list (the only two above $200K) worked in the Health Care Industry: WESTCHESTER HEALTH CARE CORP.

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2009, 11:09 PM
Rhodescholar: Keep all your NY rants in this one thread. It's all the same thing over and over.

rhodescholar
December 19th, 2009, 12:44 AM
Funded ^ by the "Manhattan Institute for Policy Research (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Res earch)" ...

A group which has no agenda (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/manhattan-institute-policy-research) whatsoever.

Why can't leftists stop attacking the messenger and address the message?

Why can't moderators delete garbage one liner posts like that one, if the poster does not address the topic?

stache
December 19th, 2009, 01:12 AM
Why can't trolls post elsewhere?

Codex
December 19th, 2009, 07:32 AM
However a large percentage of those leaving New York State are heading for the states of New Jersey, Pennsylvania and other states such as Connecticut, which are within the NYC Metro Area. According to the research document you posted, after Florida the next biggest migration destinations are New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

It should also be noted that NYC also attracts a good deal of migrants both from across the US and globally, and NYC's population is projected to grow within the longer term.








:)

londonlawyer
December 19th, 2009, 07:43 AM
Very few. Most who leave NYS after they retire go to N Carolina, Georgia and Florida. I expected Charlotte to be a southern city, but it's packed with people who fled the high costs of the tri-state area.

User Name
December 19th, 2009, 08:39 AM
SourceWatch.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SourceWatch)


These guys come from the far side of liberal.

No agenda there either. :rolleyes:

Everyone has an agenda, otherwise why would they take the time to do what they do?

infoshare
December 19th, 2009, 09:14 AM
Why can't moderators delete garbage one liner posts like that one, if the poster does not address the topic?


O.K. you got me here: that type of post you referenced is something that is a complete conversation killer and I would like to see less of that "shouting-down" approach to posting.

"playing the man: and not the ball"

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 09:20 AM
I posted a reply with links showing who funded the report in post one.

Which some see as "garbage" -- while others might be interested to know who is driving the argument.

Now how is that a "conversation killer" :confused:

And to say that NYS is a "Failure" belies the full situation.

Is NYS more of a failure than the USA in general?

Might as well say Mankind is a failure. But I don't believe that.

infoshare
December 19th, 2009, 09:27 AM
Might as well say Mankind is a failure. But I don't believe that.

These are all good thoughts to exchange!

This new member (rscholar) has sure got the conversation going: I like that. He may bit a sharp tounged and rude sometime; but overall civil and very smart. Not to mention an uncanny sense of timing (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher).

Link to article -- "A New York state of mind? Try sad."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher#ixzz0a9NXiyne
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 11:16 AM
Interesting that a different study on so-called "happiness" from last month, November 2009 (http://www.livescience.com/culture/091110-fifty-happy-states.html) came up with an entirely different order for the states, with NY falling closer to the middle at Number 35 and CA near the top at Number 9:


. .. a similar ranking reported last month, which found that the most tolerant and wealthiest (http://www.livescience.com/culture/091110-happy-states.html) states were, on average, the happiest.

That article ^ lists Utah at the top, apparently the happiest, "most tolerant" and wealthiest :confused:

The more recent study cited in the post above (which doesn't seem to be found on the CDC website (http://www.cdc.gov/) despite all sorts of news reports -- including the link to the NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher) -- which claim that the survey upon which the data is based came from there) put NY at the bottom of all states +DC (#51) and CA only a bit less bad (#46).

The Science journal article where the more recent study was published isn't turning up on a web search (if anyone finds it please post a link). But the study (from Warwick Univ. / UK & Hamilton College / USA) is discussed more in full HERE (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/research_finds_the/).

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Interesting to see that the states that claim "Right to Work" status (http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm) correlate to those states with the lower numbers of persons covered by health insurance (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33006860/ns/health-health_care/).

rhodescholar
December 19th, 2009, 12:13 PM
These are all good thoughts to exchange!

This new member (rscholar) has sure got the conversation going: I like that. He may bit a sharp tounged and rude sometime; but overall civil and very smart. Not to mention an uncanny sense of timing (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher).

Link to article -- "A New York state of mind? Try sad."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher#ixzz0a9NXiyne
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_ny_needs_happy_pills_sad_day_as_state_ranks_las t_in_poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fhome+%28Home%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Infoshare, I appreciate the sentiment. If you can clean up the board, and get the nonsense off topic stuff dealt with, I will bring over ALOT of people from other poli forum discussion boards that would increase traffic here substantially.

Anywhoo, lofter, what difference does it make if the group is leftwing or rightwing - it is their reporting that counts, and they included leftist editorial newspapers like the Daily News on their site, which tells you their message has teeth.

As for the other poster, yes NY state's overall pop is increasing - BUT, as the report stated, the people coming in are either illegals or those making 15-20% LESS than those leaving.

What that means is the tax base will shrink even further, putting NY State in a worse position than it already is. It cannot even pay its bills now; do you think that a state with obscene regulation levels and the nation's highest tax rate (12.62% in NYC) are going to improve the economy?

These are crucial issues that need addressing, and not just here, but elsewhere too. Otherwise, we are going to end up like a larger version of Detroit:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703558004574581650636077732.html

"Yet Mr. Bing is a realist, something Detroit hasn't had at the helm for a long time. "We've been paralyzed by a culture in the city of Detroit, and maybe the state of Michigan, of entitlement," by which he means ever-rising union wages. "Our people, I don't believe, truly understand how dire the situation is. There are ugly decisions that need to be made and I'm surely not going to be popular for making them. But I didn't take this job based on popularity."

One group that surely isn't a fan is the public employee unions. He grumbles that there are 17 unions with over 50 separate bargaining units. "I can give you a data sheet that will show you we've got several of those bargaining units with less than 100 people, and each one of them has a president that's paid by the city to negotiate against the city," he says. "Coming from the private sector, I find that insane."

Mr. Bing's gladiator-like brawls with the union bosses have drawn national attention. Earlier this year, he forced nonunionized city workers to take a 10% pay cut and unpaid furloughs. Now he's demanding the same pay concession from the unions. At one point the union got so fed up with Mr. Bing's refusal to buckle to their demands that they asked the courts to toss him in jail for violating their contracts. That didn't happen, but the unions did win a court challenge when the mayor refused to collect union dues out of city paychecks.

"Today in the city of Detroit," he tells me, "our union employee benefits cost 68% of what their base wage is. I don't think that happens in any other place in the country." To give a sense of how excessive those pay packages are, he adds: "When you look at one of the most dominant labor unions in the world, the UAW, they're nowhere close to what we give our city workers.""

MidtownGuy
December 19th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Infoshare, I appreciate the sentiment. If you can clean up the board, and get the nonsense off topic stuff dealt with, I will bring over ALOT of people from other poli forum discussion boards that would increase traffic here substantially.Oh Jesus, no. If we want to drown in dummy talk we can go over to Free Republic ourselves.:rolleyes:

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 03:45 PM
Perhaps a scout ... sent out to look for points of incursion :confused:

Man the battlements, friends!

stache
December 19th, 2009, 04:42 PM
And woman them too, while you're at it -

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 05:31 PM
All able posters to the fore!

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 05:46 PM
Very few. Most who leave NYS after they retire go to N Carolina, Georgia and Florida. I expected Charlotte to be a southern city, but it's packed with people who fled the high costs of the tri-state area.

All of those states, NY included, rank in the higher level of poverty rates (those in poverty seem to be overly represented in Right to Work states, as well).

Poverty Rate based on Household Income, 2008 (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=16&cat=1)

rhodescholar
December 19th, 2009, 06:29 PM
All able posters to the fore!

Given your complete lack of knowledge, and total disinterest in debating facts and the OP, I'm not sure whether you and your other little moveon.org pals here would even notice...

lofter1
December 19th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Tsk tsk ... watch the personal stuff.

Stay on topic, OK?

rhodescholar
December 19th, 2009, 10:22 PM
Tsk tsk ... watch the personal stuff.

Stay on topic, OK?

Own a mirror? How many times are you going to told by a mod to stop the personal attacks and thread derailments?

I guess when a poster is totally outgunned, has little or no facts, and zero debating ability, then they need to start with that garbage.

I, for one, am glad to see people of your caliber defending the unsustainable benefits programs for our public union workers, it'll make their abolition that much easier to accomplish.

rhodescholar
December 19th, 2009, 10:27 PM
All of those states, NY included, rank in the higher level of poverty rates (those in poverty seem to be overly represented in Right to Work states, as well).

Poverty Rate based on Household Income, 2008 (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=16&cat=1)

Good map:

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=20&cat=1

With few exceptions, each state with a large number of union members is near bankruptcy, has massive above-average unemployment, and low growth.

As for the poverty level, what is poor in NY could be wealthy in LA given the disparity in the respective cost of living levels for each state.

stache
December 19th, 2009, 10:33 PM
LA as in Louisiana or Los Angeles?

rhodescholar
December 20th, 2009, 12:06 AM
LA as in Louisiana or Los Angeles?

The fine state of Louisiana.

Ninjahedge
December 20th, 2009, 09:36 PM
Own a mirror?

Yes. How would you be able to tell what a person is like with a mirror? are you trying to be witty? Please stop. It hurts.


How many times are you going to told by a mod to stop the personal attacks and thread derailments?

When you stop posting incindiary threads intended to aggravate people. This is not a case of looking for discussion, you want to find a boat to rock. It pisses you off when Loft takes it rather non-chalant-ly and goes on to post contrary points of argument (including things such as the funding sources for some of these "truthful" studies and reports).


I guess when a poster is totally outgunned, has little or no facts, and zero debating ability, then they need to start with that garbage.

Again with the personal attack. You used the ill fitting mirror analogy, it is best you use the same for yourself.


I, for one, am glad to see people of your caliber defending the unsustainable benefits programs for our public union workers, it'll make their abolition that much easier to accomplish.

You are really a Nihilist, aren't you? You call someone out saying "you are so wrong to insult others" and you then go on to insult everything about him, anyone that agrees with him, and anybody on this site that disagrees with you.


Lead by example, not by body odor RS.

infoshare
December 20th, 2009, 11:39 PM
The fine state of Louisiana.

How many more of this tag-team can you wrangle with before you lose either your mind or at least your composure. What a waste!

O.K - I do understand that some people live for debate, and I will always accept that fact, but I do not understand why anyone who hates Christianity, Liberals, Conservatives, ham burgers, or whatever, would want to get into the mix on an internet forum and fight to the death. All in the face of the fact that you have no chance of influencing either the issue in general or your opponent in particular.

I can see there is going to be no possibility for meaningful discussion found here, just bitter wrangling, vindictiveness and insults that are beyond degrading to both sides. Such discussions are an exercise in futility and I just do not get it!


At this point, I would suggest posting only brief comments, links, graphics & photos that support you position: or we will all end up with nothing but a lot of hostility in the room – and you will be gone. Gone either by getting banned or by you own sense of exasperation.

p.s. sorry if that sounds like a lecture: but I only want to see a new member, stay a member.

londonlawyer
December 20th, 2009, 11:44 PM
New York State sucks. To me, NYC is the best city in the US and one of the very best in the world. Nonetheless, the cost of things in NY is absurd. Housing prices, property taxes and utilities are astronomical here.

RandySavage
December 21st, 2009, 12:01 AM
The oft-quoted:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."