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lofter1
December 28th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Marseilles: Grand Mosque plans

islamineurope blogspot (http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/07/marseilles-grand-mosque-plans.html)
July 4, 2008

The architectural plans for the new Grand Mosque of Marseilles have been chosen this week. The mosque's prayer hall is 3,500 square meters and could accommodate 2,500 worshipers. The mosque, built on the site of the municipality's slaughterhouse, is expected to be completed in four years.

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http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dGy4LseLi2I6/340x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03N32Hd7Upcv1/340x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0evH0K72279FY/610x.jpg

daylife.com (http://www.daylife.com/photo/0evH0K72279FY)

Photos shows the architectural model for the Grande Mosque of Marseille, designed by architect Maxime Repaux on April 30, 2009 in Marseille. Those in charge of the Association for the Grand Mosque of Marseille announced yeterday that the construction of the Mosque would start in December 2009 and indicated that they hoped to raise '3 to 4 million euros' (4 to 5.3 million US dollars) to finance the opening of the site, out of the global budget of 22 million euros (29 million US dollars).

***

Marseilles: Building of Great Mosque

islamineurope blogspot (http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/11/marseilles-building-of-great-mosque.html)
November 22, 2007

"We have come to the end of a long and often painful road. We will do everything to have a up a powerful symbol rise up, a monument for the city of Marseilles, that at the same time respects that the republic doesn't want to associate with religion."

With these words Nordine Cheikh received the keys of the Great Mosque last evening in the Marseilles town hall.

The first stone must still be laid for what will eventually be one of the largest mosques in French. The mosque, which will cost about 8 million euro, will have place for about 3,000 believers. Cheikh, president of the association of the Great Mosque, expects that it will be ready in 2010.

Cheikh received the keys from Jean-Pierre Gaudin, mayor of Marseilles for the past twelve years. He had personally worked hard for the mosque. France is the land of laïcité – the republic stays away from religions. That makes the involvement of the city council even more exceptional.

Gaudin has a clear explanation: "The growing Muslim community doesn't have enough prayer space. All the cities where many Muslims live - Lille, Toulouse, Montpellier – have a great mosque. Marseilles cannot stay behind. We're obligated for our residents."

The port city of Marseille prides itself on being a place where various communities live well together. Or as the mayor says: "Marseille wants to be a city of hospitality." When in 2005 cars were set afire, Marseille stayed calm.

A quarter of the 800,000 residents are Muslims, and according to Cheikh 40,000 are practicing. They come especially from Algeria, Tunis and Morooco, but Marseille also has 70,000 residents from the Comoros. There are about 60 mosques in the city, generally in empty buildings, old shops or warehouses.

The new mosque is being built on the site of the city's slaughterhouse in the Saint-Louis neighborhood. The area currently has the scenery warehouse of the opera, which will be partially integrated into the mosque. Gaudin wanted to make the land available for 99 years, but the city council didn't like it. The Great Mosque now pays 24,000 euro a year for the area of 8,600 sqm, and has an option for 50 years.

Cheikh now needs to bring in funds from believersin Marseille and elsewhere in France. The lands of origin will also being considered. Algeria, Tunis and Morocco may each contribute up to 1.7 million euro, as agreed with the city council. This in order to limit the chance of state interference. According to Cheikh the first promises have already been made. The presence of the mayor of Marrakesh in the key handing ceremony gave the mosque council good hopes.

The drawings of architect Abdelouahab Khelif shows a building with a dome, a monumental facade and two minarets [25 meters high]. They will not sound the call to prayer, as that's forbidden in France.

The city council also approved this summer the plan to reserve the area next ot the mosque for a cultural center with Arabic leanings. The center must be strictly separated from the mosque in order to prevent a mixing of culture and religion.

The extreme right has protested, according to Cheikh there are also Muslims who object to the common character of the enterprise. Despite that there is barely any opposition in Marseilles to the building.

"The first donation for the mosque came from a Catholic lady, the second from the Jewish center," says Marie-Noëlle Mivielle of the mayor's cabinet. "In Marseilles the religion associate well together. If there's opposition it comes from outside the city.

lofter1
December 28th, 2009, 01:36 PM
In Marseille, unease rises before France’s ‘cathedral mosque’

indianexpress.com (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-marseille-unease-rises-before-frances-cathedral-mosque/547268/0)
November 28, 2009

Notre Dame de la Garde, an elegant Roman Catholic basilica, has stood for 150 years on a promontory south of Marseille’s Old Port, symbolising this fabled Mediterranean city. Soon, however, a new and very different symbol is scheduled to rise on another promontory, on the north side of the Old Port. It is the $30 million Grand Mosque of Marseille, a dramatic reminder of the Islamic heritage that is grafting itself on to France’s cultural landscape.

The mosque, a place of worship for the metropolitan region’s over 2,00,000 Muslims, will be a 92,500-sq ft colossus, France’s largest. Already, it has become an emblem for many native French people who feel uncomfortable with an immigrant population that seeks to live by its own religious rules. Nor is Marseille alone; across Western Europe, growing communities of Muslim immigrants have created unease among native populations by seeking to affirm their own identities — by building mosques or wearing veils in the street.

In Switzerland, voters will vote on Sunday in a referendum on a proposal to ban mosque minarets (WNY Thread on the Swiss proposal (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22894)). The referendum underlines the fear of many Swiss people that minarets may join cowbells as symbols of their culture.

Similar fears were stoked in Marseille two weeks ago when swarms of North African youths destroyed cars and boats to vent their feelings over Algeria’s mixed luck in a pair of qualifying matches for the football World Cup. The French national team did not seem to interest them as passionately.

Marine Le Pen, daughter of Jean-Marie Le Pen, who heads the right-wing National Front, said, “We must demand that those youths choose. You cannot have two nations in your heart, two allegiances.”

Marseille politician and right-wing lawyer Ronald Perdomo said the planned “cathedral mosque” would be a “symbol of non-assimilation”. Perdomo’s and others this week filed a third lawsuit to block its construction.

Recognising the unease — and seeking to capitalise on it — President Nicolas Sarkozy’s government has launched what it calls a “national identity debate,” in which French people are encouraged to reflect on what it means to be French.

But for men like Elias Djeddeh, a 44-year-old barber who immigrated to Marseille from Algeria 11 years ago, the Grand Mosque will provide the city’s Muslims with their first purpose-built place of worship.

© 2009 The Indian Express Limited

lofter1
December 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM
French Mosque’s Symbolism Varies With Beholder

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/28/world/europe/28marseille.html)
By STEVEN ERLANGER
December 28, 2009

MARSEILLE JOURNAL

MARSEILLE, France — The minaret of the new Grand Mosque of Marseille (http://www.lamosqueedemarseille.org/edito.aspx), whose cornerstone will be laid here in April, will be silent — no muezzin, live or recorded, will disturb the neighborhood with the call to prayer. Instead, the minaret will flash a beam of light for a couple of minutes, five times a day.

Normally, the light would be green, for the color of Islam. But Marseille is a port, and green is reserved for signals to ships at sea. Red? No, the firefighters have reserved red.

Instead, said Noureddine Cheikh, the head of the Marseille Mosque Association, the light will almost surely be purple — a rather nightclubby look for such an elegant building.

So is this assimilation? Mr. Cheikh laughs. “I suppose it is,” he said. “It’s a good symbol of assimilation.”

But as Western Europe is plunged into a new bout of anxiety over the impact of post-colonial Muslim immigration — reeling in varying ways from the implications of a recent Swiss vote to ban minarets altogether — some scholars see a destructive dynamic, with assimilation feeding a reaction that, in turn, spawns resentment, particularly among young Muslims.

Vincent Geisser, a scholar of Islam and immigration at the French National Center for Scientific Research, believes that the more Europe’s Muslims establish themselves as a permanent part of the national scene, the more they frighten some who believe that their national identity could be altered forever.

“Today in Europe the fear of Islam crystallizes all other fears,” Mr. Geisser said. “In Switzerland, it’s minarets. In France, it’s the veil, the burqa and the beard.”

The large new mosque, which its builders call “the symbol of Marseillais Islam,” is a source of pride here in France’s second-largest city, which is at least 25 percent Muslim. But it is also cause for alarm, Mr. Geisser said, embodying the paradox that visible signs of integration set off xenophobic anxiety. “All these symbols reveal a deeper, more lasting presence of Islam,” he said. “It’s the passage of something temporary to something that is implanted and takes root.”

The change has been significant over the last five years, Mr. Geisser said. “Now we’re at a crossroads,” he said, of a complicated European anxiety that stems from economic crisis; the fear of globalization; the perceived increase in immigration as European birthrates fall; and the subsuming of national states into an enlarged Europe.

“There is an angst over identity in Europe,” he said. “There’s a feeling that Europe is becoming smaller and less important. Europe is like an old lady, who whenever she hears a noise thinks it’s a burglary.” This generalized anxiety and fear is translated into a specific one, he argues: Islam, “a box in which everyone expresses their fears.”

The European Union is believed to have more than 15 million Muslims and perhaps as many as 20 million. France has five million to six million Muslims, the most in Western Europe.

In general, relations between Muslims and other Europeans have been good. But the terrorism associated with attacks in France in 1995 and 2001 in the United States has resonated through the years, reinforced by the Madrid train bombings in 2004; the killing that year of the Dutch film director Theo van Gogh, a critic of conservative Muslims; the London bombings of 2005; and the controversy over Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published the same year.

In 2004, France banned the head scarf (and other signs of religious affiliation) in public schools. It is now debating a ban on the burqa, by which the government seems to mean any full facial covering, including the niqab, which shows the eyes. That controversial measure is caught up in a government-sponsored debate over national identity, led by the ministry that also handles immigration.

Both measures have been widely criticized as political maneuvers by President Nicolas Sarkozy, capitalizing on social fears to unite the center-right and co-opt the far-right National Front before regional elections in March. He has tried to play down the religious element in the debate, but he has also urged Muslims to show “humble discretion” and avoid “ostentation and provocation”; a junior minister, Nadine Morano, said young Muslims should dress better, find jobs and stop using slang and wearing baseball caps backward.

The far-right and anti-immigrant parties did comparatively well in last June’s European elections, which had a low turnout. For the first time, Britain’s far-right party won two seats, and the Dutch Freedom Party secured 17 percent of the vote.

This year, the Danes and the Swiss have brought a new focus to mosques and minarets. Plans for Copenhagen’s first two large mosques have met with strong opposition from the right. The Swiss vote brought widespread condemnation of fear-mongering and racism, including from Switzerland’s own government.

Youcef Mammeri, a writer on Islam in France and member of the Joint Council of Muslims of Marseille, says that the debates over minarets, burqas and national identity have angered many French-born Muslims and brought them together in a defensive circle.

Asked about the source of “this anxiety about Islam,” Mr. Mammeri said: “I ask myself this same question.” He finds “a perverse aspect to all these questions asked Muslims, which are not coherent,” he said, but “liberate and dignify existing racism” and “stigmatize Muslims.”

Racism in France has moved from being anti-Arab to anti-Muslim, he said, “a terrible regression.”

If 10 years ago Muslims debated politics and assimilation, “today everyone agrees and reacts the same way,” Mr. Mammeri said. “They feel they are attacked. Today we realize being a secular Muslim or a moderate or a radical Muslim is not the right question. It’s about being Muslim.”

When he travels abroad, to New York, Barcelona or Algiers, Mr. Mammeri said, “I’m French; I feel French. But in France, in Marseille every day, you have these same questions, repeated stupidly: what about the burqa, the mosque, terrorism.”

An 11-city study of Islam in Europe by the Open Society Institute, published this month, found that 55 percent of Muslims believe that religious discrimination has increased in the last five years. Muslims are nearly three times as likely to be unemployed as non-Muslims and live more poorly, the study said, but it also found that most Muslims feel a strong connection to their current homelands and want to live in mixed communities.

In Marseille, the study found, 55 percent of Muslims and 68 percent of non-Muslims have a fairly or very strong sense of belonging to their city.

Still, the planned mosque, costing about $33 million, is not welcomed by everyone. Local politicians of the far-right Regional Front have vainly filed lawsuits trying to block construction of what they consider an effort to create an alternative landmark to compete with the city’s cathedrals.

At the Grand Bar Bernabo, a gritty cafe near the site of the new mosque, an older man who refused to give his name said, with a thin smile, “I’m going to bomb it when it opens.” Asked why, he said: “There are a lot of them already, and this will bring more of them, and there will be trouble.”

Jean-Claude, 49, a sanitation worker, said: “People in the area are flipping out, but when it’s done, it’s done. You can say whatever you want, but they’re going to build it.” He only hoped that the minaret — limited to just over 80 feet by local zoning laws — would not be taller than a nearby bell tower.

Gabrielle Martelli said Marseille had a good reputation for tolerance, “but things have been tense here for a long time.”

“There’s a lot of racism here” that goes both ways, she insisted. “When you’ve been insulted and called a ‘sale Française’ ” — a filthy Frenchwoman — “you think: ‘Wait, this is my country.’ ”

Nadim Audi contributed reporting.

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

lofter1
December 28th, 2009, 01:48 PM
La mosquée de Marseille

T H E - P R O J E C T (http://www.lamosqueedemarseille.org/projet.aspx)

Go ^ to view Slide Show (Afficher le diaporama)

VID in HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td__gWdnQII&) at youtube:

Projet de grande mosquée à Marseille

meesalikeu
December 29th, 2009, 12:32 AM
these monocultures like france need to stop wringing their hands and learn to assimilate other cultures and religions. i'm just sayin.


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/meesalikeu/P1050527.jpg
...^ just your average mosque in a cornfield outside toledo, OHIO * whistles in the wind *

zupermaus
January 1st, 2010, 09:54 AM
^that's not exactly jawdropping in Europe. There are hundreds of mosques in every major city, and the Muslim population is multiple times that of North America's (near 40 million compared to 3 million). As for France there are thousands of mosques all over the country catering to 6% of the French population.
However this Marseilles mosque is replacing the traditional role of the main cathedral now, as it's so large and will be much better attended by the majority of the population, that is France's second largest city. The right wing are obviously up in arms as some sign of things to come, and the 'Islamisization' of Europe theory. The reality though for all the Muslim immigrants pouring in, combined with the falling birth rates of the natives (not in France though where native birthrates are very high) - is still that the birth rates of the immigrant children fall dramatically within the generation, alongside the high incidence of intermarriage. This ensures natives in the long term will never become marginalised population-wise. This is without even mentioning the fact these children will change culture to their adopted country.

Look at UK as a good example historically and contemporarily, the Black population numbers in the millions (with some estimates that over a third of London is Black and half of all it's children born there have at least one Black parent), and is the second largest major racial minority, yet is still one of the most 'endangered', and liable to disappear altogether.

This is because of intermarriage, with more than half (80 percent of young Black men in some areas) marrying outside their community. The same with East Asian and European migrants, whilst South Asians and Middle Easterners are still pretty high too at 35-40% intermarrying. The fastest growing race is 'mixed race', much more so than the other minorities even with their immigration levels.

This is neither a modern phenomenon, the African community stretches back 2000 years, and Blacks numbered in their tens of thousands in the city by the 1700s; there were 3000 Indians already when the first Englishman set foot in India. However, these historical communities disappeared altogether due to intermarriage.

In retrospect today's London, touted by some as the worlds most cosmopolitan city, is still only now approaching levels of foreign born as in the medieval and Roman periods. Likewise today's immigration wave, as seen countless times before in European history, from centuries long Arab, Moorish, Mongol, Hun and Turkish conquests, to modern day world wars and frontier changes, will not upset the balance - it will just move with the times and transmogrify onward with European identity that has always been fluid yet intact despite the population upheavals.

MidtownGuy
January 1st, 2010, 03:39 PM
^that's not exactly jawdropping in Europe. There are hundreds of mosques in every major city,
But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

I also question your statement about London being 1/3rd Black. Any real figures to back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't take that number without a reference because it never looked 1/3rd Black when I visited.

MidtownGuy
January 1st, 2010, 04:09 PM
I went to wiki and the number of Blacks you cited is fiction.

According to the Office for National Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_for_National_Statistics), based on 2006 estimates, 69.4 per cent of the 7.5 million inhabitants of London were White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people), with 58 per cent White British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_British), 2.5 per cent White Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Briton) and 8.9 per cent classified as Other White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Other_%28United_Kingdom_Census%29). Some 13.1 per cent are of South Asian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Asian) descent, with Indians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian) making up 6.5 per cent of London's population, followed by Bangladeshis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Bangladeshi) and Pakistanis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis) at 2.3 per cent each. 2 per cent are categorised as "Other Asian". 10.7 per cent of London's population are Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British), with around 5.5 per cent being Black African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_migration_to_the_United_Kingdom), 4.3 per cent as Black Caribbean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_African-Caribbean_community) and 0.7 per cent as "Other Black". 3.5 per cent of Londoners are of mixed race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mixed); 1.5 per cent are Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chinese); and 1.9 per cent belong to another ethnic group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_ethnic_group_%28United_Kingdom_Census%29).


Why is it so common for Europeans to brag about being as multicultural as the USA (or more, LOL), and then turn around and throw a zinger, like worrying their Cathedral's bell tower will be shorter than the minaret of a mosque?

Alonzo-ny
January 1st, 2010, 04:36 PM
Welcome to the newest pissing contest thread.

MidtownGuy
January 1st, 2010, 04:38 PM
No, welcome to GETTING FACTS STRAIGHT. Happy New Year, Alonzo.;)

Alonzo-ny
January 1st, 2010, 04:41 PM
Happy New Year!

Dr.T
January 2nd, 2010, 07:25 AM
Why is it so common for Europeans to brag about being as multicultural as the USA (or more, LOL), and then turn around and throw a zinger, like worrying their Cathedral's bell tower will be shorter than the minaret of a mosque?


It is hard to read things so unfortunate in a forum.

Tell me, can I build a Christian church in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia or Nigeria ...? Can a European Christian walk with a gold cross on the neck or clothes or Christian symbols in the streets of Algeria, Egypt, Syria or Iraq? Can a Christian eat pork or drink scotch in a bar of a Muslim country? It is very easy to come illegally to Europe and when you're here ask for your religion the same rights enjoyed by Christians. Where is the reciprocity? Muslims in Europe can not ask what they deny other religions in their country of origin.

On the other hand, tell me what are the two countries with common border with a higher GDP differential in the world? The answer is easy: the two Koreas and Spain and Morocco. The GDP of Spain is 23.6 times that of Morocco, without forgetting that there are 39 million of Spaniards and 76 million of Moroccans. A Spaniard produced per day as that 40 Moroccans. Who can stop the human flood that occurs every day? A person living in the cities of Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands is Spanish, European citizen and he is living on African soil, with Muslims: if you say those things in the streets of Melilla or Las Palmas de Gran Canarias then they throw kicked out of Europe and send you to live in the Moroccan Islam so you know what that world is. The only place in North Africa where Christians can pray freely without getting killed Muslims is in the cities of Ceuta and Melilla. Why? Because it is the territory of Spain, ... What would happen with Christian churches there if Moroccan invade these cities? the answer is easy: just as in Western Sahara in 1976, the churches would be burned and Christians killed by infidels. Islam is worse than Hitler's National Socialism. Muslims are the worst far-right in the world today.

You say that Americans are multicultural but Europeans do not. What a nonsense you have written, because American border patrol police shoot to kill to illegal immigrants trying to sneak into California or New Mexico. What are you talking about friend? Maybe for you a Hispanic from Mexico or Honduras has less Human Rights than a Moroccan or Algerian? and Cubans fleeing communism in the Florida Straits?. I would venture to say nothing happened to the Indians of the United States, you know: the Sioux, Apache, ... because it was a crime against humanity, wasn´t it?. The Americans are a thousand times more racist than Europeans and speak happily of the topic of Islam because Africa and Asia is far from the United States.

This summer they came to the beach is 500 meters below my house two small boats from Algeria with more than 30 illegal immigrants. Would you see the beach littered with corpses of young people dying every day because they are drowned in Mediterranean Sea trying start a new life far of Islam? I´m tired to see this scene in front of my dinning room every summer !!!!. I have a particular rare privilege that I will tell you: my private house in La Manga del Mar Menor (Murcia, Spain) is geographically the closest building in a straight line to the coast of Algeria from the continental Europe. No European citizen can say that lives closest Algeria (for me is closer to the Algerian coast that the cities of Madrid and Valencia) except the Spanish soldiers who reside in the military detachment Chafarinas Islands (Africa).

Believe me, Islam is the problem... and you need change your ideas about Islam and muslims, because you are wrong !!!

zupermaus
January 2nd, 2010, 08:21 AM
I went to wiki and the number of Blacks you cited is fiction.

According to the Office for National Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_for_National_Statistics), based on 2006 estimates, 69.4 per cent of the 7.5 million inhabitants of London were White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people), with 58 per cent White British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_British), 2.5 per cent White Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Briton) and 8.9 per cent classified as Other White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Other_%28United_Kingdom_Census%29). Some 13.1 per cent are of South Asian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Asian) descent, with Indians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian) making up 6.5 per cent of London's population, followed by Bangladeshis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Bangladeshi) and Pakistanis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis) at 2.3 per cent each. 2 per cent are categorised as "Other Asian". 10.7 per cent of London's population are Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British), with around 5.5 per cent being Black African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_migration_to_the_United_Kingdom), 4.3 per cent as Black Caribbean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_African-Caribbean_community) and 0.7 per cent as "Other Black". 3.5 per cent of Londoners are of mixed race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mixed); 1.5 per cent are Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chinese); and 1.9 per cent belong to another ethnic group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_ethnic_group_%28United_Kingdom_Census%29).


Why is it so common for Europeans to brag about being as multicultural as the USA (or more, LOL), and then turn around and throw a zinger, like worrying their Cathedral's bell tower will be shorter than the minaret of a mosque?

^ I see your point but those stats have been innaccurately mixed in with the last official census, in 2001, which was not only laughably undercounted (they 'lost' over 1 million people), but also severely out-of-date - having since missed out on the country's three biggest ever waves of immigration. Before 2001 London never lauded itself as the world's most cosmopolitan city, after the migration waves many people started saying so.

Basically the waves were from:

1. the EU (and EU expansion), which is not counted in a census (or at immigration control) due to the laws of citizen's right of work and abode anywhere in the EU. These are mainly Western and Central Europeans.
2. Africa: The Black population has more than doubled within a few years, replacing the historic Caribbean community, and are mostly from West and East Africa.
3. Latin America - completely unprecedented, hundreds of thousands of Brazilians, Colombians, Peruvians and Argentines.



So back on the Black population subject, also on wikipedia you can see updated data will contradict the census stats in the same article. Bear in mind London boroughs account for 7.5 million in population, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London:

"The Ghanaian High Commission in the UK believes around 850,000 Ghanaians live in London"


"According to the 2001 census over 80,000 Londoners were born in Jamaica, although the majority of London's 2006 400,000+ Afro-Caribbean population classify as being of Jamaican origin." (note the big discrepancy in numbers between 2001 and 2006).


" It is estimated that between 610,000 and an astonishing 2,300,000 Nigerians live in London".


^Add just those three communities together, and if the Nigerian estimate is right (I would say it's in between the two, but I have to say there are a damn big number of Nigerians here), that would account for 3.55 million, or 47% of the London boroughs' population. And that doesn't even take into account the rest of the major Caribbean, Somali, Ethiopian, Kenyan or Sierra Leone populations that number in their hundreds of thousands.

IMO I reckon the amount of Nigerians to be well over 1 million, and more near the 2 million mark - theyre definitely the city's largest community, and bear in mind it's been 4 years since 2006 and the African wave is still going strong (in the 5 years since 2001 count the Nigerians went from something like 30,000 to the smallest estimate of 610,000). I would add another 1.5 million+? for the rest of the Black population.

ablarc
January 2nd, 2010, 08:53 AM
zupermaus, your post #6 is so full of nonsense, made-up statistics, exaggerations and false claims that you've lost all credibility in my eyes. The hogwash is an insult to your readers on this forum; we're not as clueless as you apparently think.

Btw, how does a black population disappear? Our president had one white parent and one African; and yet he's hailed as our first black president.

zupermaus
January 2nd, 2010, 09:03 AM
btw,

Mosquee de la Paris (1926) - there are about 378 mosques in Paris:

http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/flickr-1127610997-image.jpg

http://persia1.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/450px-gd-fr-paris-mosquee012.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/300730940_ec3a043bd7.jpg

http://www.paris-in-pictures.com/pictures/paris-05/mosquee-paris/04.JPG http://beautyandthefeastblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/img_3975.jpg


London Central Mosque, Regents Park (there are over 300 mosques and 500 madrassahs in the city):

http://karim74.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/regents-park-mosque-in-london-england.jpg

http://www.milesfaster.co.uk/gallery/london-images/london-central-mosque.jpg http://www.klisia.net/blog/uploaded_images/mosque1_jpg-729244.jpg

East London Mosque

http://www.newenglishreview.org/files/100/Image/East%20London%20Mosque%203.jpg http://www.islamfactory.com/resources/images/elm.jpg

proposed London (mega) Mosque (capacity 70,000)

http://www.e-architect.co.uk/london/jpgs/mangera_yvars_abbey_mills_77.jpg http://www.altmuslim.com/ee_images/abbeymills_mosque_london.jpg


Berlin Mosques

http://www.muslim.org/photos/images/ber3.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/g6/47/201747/2/78003328.vwq1rv4d.jpg

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Ahmadiyya+Mosque+Opens+Amidst+Protests+8qT_d0KF_Ug l.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Omar_ibn_Al_Khattab_mosque_berlin_kreuberg.jpg/800px-Omar_ibn_Al_Khattab_mosque_berlin_kreuberg.jpg

http://en.structurae.de/files/photos/2445/dsc_4302.jpg http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/77168839.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193F017BA0BE69430F7C99279168647D89C A7CFF610D5B4FC25
other Grand Mosques:

Rotterdam Grand Mosque (Jamme Masjid)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/2004_Mevlana_Moschee_Rotterdam.JPG/797px-2004_Mevlana_Moschee_Rotterdam.JPG


Stockholm

http://images.world66.com/gr/an/d_/grand_mosque_in_st_galleryfull

Vienna

http://www.webmastergrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Vienna-Islamic-Centre-in-Austria.jpg

Sofia

http://www.webmastergrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Banya-Bashi-Mosque-in-Sofia-Bulgaria.jpg

Birmingham

http://www.webmastergrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Birmingham-Central-Mosque-in-England.jpg

Rome

http://www.webmastergrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Mosque-of-Rome-in-Italy.JPG


Madrid

http://www.webmastergrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Mosque-of-Madrid-in-Spain.jpg

Fabrizio
January 2nd, 2010, 09:29 AM
But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

^ LOL.

-----

And BTW...where is the biggest Mosque in all of Europe?

In Italy.

Some views of Rome's little "storefront" Mosque.

It is bigger than anything in the US.

Note BTW that the land for it's construction was donated by the Italian government and the first stone was placed by Itay's then President Pertini :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/aa3JPG.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/aa2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/aa1.jpg

----

And while we're at it... to add a little bit of balance.... let's take a look at Florence's inconspicious little Jewish Temple:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/3452423309_f33e70eab7.jpg

--

Dr.T
January 2nd, 2010, 11:12 AM
But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

I also question your statement about London being 1/3rd Black. Any real figures to back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't take that number without a reference because it never looked 1/3rd Black when I visited.

This is a LIE. For example:




MÁLAGA CITY



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquita10.jpg



FUENGIROLA
(1O MINUTES DRIVE AWAY TO MALAGA CITY)



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquitas9.jpg



MARBELLA
(15 MINUTES DRIVE AWAY TO MALAGA CITY)



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquitas3.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquitas1.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquitas2.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquita4.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mezquitas5.jpg

Dr.T
January 2nd, 2010, 12:08 PM
The cleric of the mosque in Fuengirola is famous in Spain. He was taken to prison because he explained during prayer at the mosque was the way how the Muslim people beat their women to leave no marks and avoid being reported by them to the police station (wrap the belt or stick wood in a towel and hit in the back and ass of women). Fuengirola Muslims defended him saying that they have under the Koran right to beat their wives because they are inferior to men in rights. Fantastic!. :mad:

lofter1
January 2nd, 2010, 12:23 PM
This is a LIE.

Are you saying you know what the other poster SAW in Europe?

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:12 PM
Dr. T: I described what I personally have seen. Forgive me if I have not seen them all. Fabrizio: I love that enormous mosque. Live long and prosper, friend.



It is hard to read things so unfortunate in a forum.So try actually reading what I wrote. Don't fill in more words.
If you did, you would know that I never said this:


You say that Americans are multicultural but Europeans do not.I never said that, and don't put words in my mouth. This is not SSC.
Don't make things up. Read the statement again, and try to get the real meaning this time. It isn't so hard.


Tell me, can I build a Christian church in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia or Nigeria ...? Can a European Christian walk with a gold cross on the neck or clothes or Christian symbols in the streets of Algeria, Egypt, Syria or Iraq? Can a Christian eat pork or drink scotch in a bar of a Muslim country? It is very easy to come illegally to Europe and when you're here ask for your religion the same rights enjoyed by Christians. Where is the reciprocity? Muslims in Europe can not ask what they deny other religions in their country of origin.So you want your country to be as intolerant as theirs? Congratulations. You will meet them at the lowest point.


I would venture to say nothing happened to the Indians of the United States, you know: the Sioux, Apache, ... because it was a crime against humanity, wasn´t it?Oh Jesus, another one of those Europeans, who, whenever they are criticized, they just turn the finger around to America? You and my other favorite poster should go have a drink together and talk all about America... see how well it helps you solve your own problems. I doubt it will.


I would venture to say nothing happened to the Indians of the United States, you know: the Sioux, Apache, ... because it was a crime against humanity, wasn´t it?It was one of the worst things to ever happen in human history. I hate what was done. What more do you want me to say?


The Americans are a thousand times more racist than EuropeansDon't be silly and hatelful. Have you had a look through history? Or did you only read the chapter on American atrocities? There are enough to go around.

You are from Spain. A huge portion of the wealth of your country was built from riches plundered from South America...and the MURDER OF INDIANS. LOOK IN A MIRROR.

Seville would be empty of gold of it wasn't for slavery and theft. So don't lecture an American on the slave trade, the Indians, or racism: Europeans invented it. Spain was one of the circus leaders. In the end, there is no point in pointing fingers about centuries ago. Let's solve the problems of today: one of those is immigration in Europe. How do we learn to live together with our immigrants on both sides of the ocean instead of trying to point fingers and curtail each others rights out of fear.

Listen here: Europeans were quick to reap the riches from years of colonialism and slavery...they went across the world killing and stealing, so the way I see it, you have ZERO right to complain when the descendants of those same people whose countries you formerly colonized, are coming home to roost ...to get a piece of all that wealth that WAS CREATED AT THEIR ANCESTORS' EXPENSE. THE RAPE OF AFRICA BY EUROPE CONTINUES TODAY. Your chickens are coming home, to the empire's core, to roost. Deal with it like a mature civilization or become an intolerant throwback. It is your choice. Outlawing minarets, or switching the discussion to Mexicans, will solve nothing.

Fabrizio
January 2nd, 2010, 02:20 PM
^

Oh Jesus, another one of those Europeans, who, whenever they are criticized, they just turn the finger around to America? You and my other favorite poster should go have a drink together and talk all about America... see how well it helps you solve your own problems. I doubt it will.

I love it.

The person who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy. But when another poster poster brings up the US we get the above nonsense.

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:23 PM
^ LOL.
--

Yes, so funny, isn't it... har har harty har har, Alice. I said "hundreds". Can you show hundreds? There is nothing factually incorrect with what I said.


But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

Hardly Hundreds as large. That's correct. What do you have, a couple dozen maybe? And yes, there are lots of small or storefront mosques. Nothing in that statement is incorrect or a lie. So, until you can present hundreds as large, keep up the silly chuckling.

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:25 PM
The person who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy.It wasn't me, it was meelis...oh whatever the name is. Just pay attention, fab. I know you heard the word Muslim and came running in, but try to keep up.

Fabrizio
January 2nd, 2010, 02:28 PM
First of all I disagree with Dr T....what you said was not a lie.

( There is a difference between a lie and plain ol' dizzy-blonde ignorance.)


It wasn't me, it was meelis...oh whatever the name is. Just pay attention, fab. I know you heard the word Muslim and came running in, but try to keep up.

Correction:

"The persons who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy and Meelis... But when DrT. brings up the US we get the above nonsense."

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:30 PM
^Ah, poor dear sweet old fabby, I missed you. Where have ya been, petunia?

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:33 PM
"The persons who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy and Meelis... But when DrT. brings up the US we get the above nonsense." Yes, because references to the Indian massacre add so much to the conversation on mosques.:rolleyes: That's what we had been discussing, mosques... and a reference to a mosque in the US, or a minaret, is much more germane than a reference to the Apache. There is a difference.

Alonzo-ny
January 2nd, 2010, 02:34 PM
Welcome to the newest pissing contest thread.

I love it when I am right.

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:37 PM
I prefer the left.:p

And...it takes two to tango..er, I mean..have a pissing match.

Fabrizio
January 2nd, 2010, 02:37 PM
"tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney."

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:41 PM
^another problem many European men seem to have...insecurity about size.
All those tales about the bigger size of bananas in the South.

Fabrizio
January 2nd, 2010, 02:45 PM
^another problem many European men seem to have...insecurity about size.
All those tales about the bigger size of bananas in the South.


That's what we had been discussing, mosques...


....that is until Midtown decides to discuss peni.

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 02:46 PM
Fab wrote:
^ And mine is bigger than yours.Peni? Is that a new pasta? Who, what? Me? Whaddaya mean? Like that?^
Um, I was just following your lead. Like in the thread with Prodi too. Why always bring up male anatomy, fab? It's kind of lowbrow.

lofter1
January 2nd, 2010, 03:27 PM
okie dokey ...

Since i started this thread I'm requesting that we get back on track -- which can include discussion of the Grand Mosque or other mosques in Europe (but not so much the other stuff).

Cordoba has an incredible mosque -- the Great Mosque of Cordoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Córdoba) -- which dates back to ~ 785 AD.

When I saw it back in the early 90s I had the place to myself (but then I had all sorts of fantastic places to myself, as I was traveling during the midst of the World Cup and wherever I went -- whether in Italy, Spain or Portugal -- everyone seemed to be sitting in front of a television set).

http://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/madge/cordoba_great_mosque/600x/cordoba_great_mosque_600x.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Mosque_of_Cordoba_Spain.jpg

More photos at the ArchNet Digital Library (http://www.archnet.org/library/images/thumbnails.jsp?location_id=1422) - Great Mosque of Cordoba

zupermaus
January 2nd, 2010, 04:26 PM
I have to refute the European mosques are not just hole-in-the-walls, just because someone who visited one place happened to see some that were hole-in-the-walls, and thus concluded to everyone that all of them were, across the entire continent (and you do realise also churches across the region are being converted to mosques too). -And please, there are 40 million European Muslims (compared to 2.5 million US ones). Yes some may be small that cater to a local street, but they are never far from a Jamme Masjid (Grand Friday mosque). So do, please, visit again.

MidtownGuy
January 2nd, 2010, 04:42 PM
I have to refute the European mosques are not just hole-in-the-walls, just because someone who visited one place happened to see some that were hole-in-the-walls, and thus concluded to everyone that all of them were, across the entire continentOh? I concluded ALL of them were, across the continent, did I? I would like you to present that quote where I said that. Otherwise, please avoid putting words in my mouth. Or creating straw men arguments. Thanks.


-And please, there are 40 million European Muslims (compared to 2.5 million US ones). Yes some may be small that cater to a local street, but they are never far from a Jamme Masjid (Grand Friday mosque). So do, please, visit again.And the number of Muslims proves what?

ZippyTheChimp
January 2nd, 2010, 05:01 PM
I have to refute the European mosques are not just hole-in-the-walls, just because someone who visited one place happened to see some that were hole-in-the-walls/I agree with this. Anecdotal evidence is limited.


and please, there are 40 million European Muslims (compared to 2.5 million US ones).Who counted them? The US Census doesn't, and the figure is considered very underestimated.

But let's agree that there are several-times the percentage of Muslims in Europe as in the US. You would expect then, that European Muslims would be more politically and socially integrated than those in the US. But that's not the case. The one anomaly in Europe seems to be the UK.

Alonzo-ny
January 2nd, 2010, 05:18 PM
Locations of mosques in La France:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/03/22/image002ma195577740021.jpghttp://www.cawa.fr/IMG/gif/mosquees_frances.gif

Fabrizio
January 2nd, 2010, 05:45 PM
"But let's agree that there are several-times the percentage of Muslims in Europe as in the US. You would expect then, that European Muslims would be more politically and socially integrated than those in the US. But that's not the case."

Muslims are more socially integrated here then you might imagine.

Politically... you are correct... probably not.

Note that the growth of the Muslim populations has been very swift. Immigration in general has grown very fast in just the last 5 years. The impact on society has been surprizing... unexpected.

Europe is dealing with the fears and disorientation that all of this naturally produces. It will go through it's own upheavals, successes and mistakes, just as the US did when the color of it's cities began to change. Although I believe it will not be as violent as it was in the US.

I disagree with DrT when he says: "The Americans are a thousand times more racist than Europeans". That is just silly talk.

Also: it would be interesting to see the reaction in the US if Muslim populations were as high there as they are here.

---

zupermaus
January 2nd, 2010, 07:55 PM
zupermaus, your post #6 is so full of nonsense, made-up statistics, exaggerations and false claims that you've lost all credibility in my eyes. The hogwash is an insult to your readers on this forum; we're not as clueless as you apparently think.

Btw, how does a black population disappear? Our president had one white parent and one African; and yet he's hailed as our first black president.

check it out Newsweek article Dispelling the Myth of Eurabia (Eurabia being a neoCon American concept adopted by the European far right):

http://www.newsweek.com/id/206230/page/2

Excerpts:

"For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch. Over the same period, the equivalent figure for Moroccan-born women in the Netherlands dropped from 4.9 to 2.9. Also, fertility rates are edging upward in some Northern European countries, which would offset some of the Muslim growth. Bottom line: given the number of variables, demographers are loath to make predictions about the number of Muslims in Europe in the years to come. "You would almost have to make it up," says Carl Haub, the senior demographer at the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And the idea of a Muslim majority any time soon? "Absolutely absurd."


"And violent zealotry is for the tiny minority: polls repeatedly reaffirm that Muslims overwhelmingly disapprove of terrorism. In some countries, the mood is broadly secular. "The majority of Muslims in France are, in fact, decoupled from their religion. They just blend into an amorphous mass of brown or black people," says Ali Allawi, the former Iraqi defense minister and author of the The Crisis of Islamic Civilization. Jochen Hippler, a German political scientist at the University of Duisburg-Essen, says he has had young Turks come up to him to ask what Islam is all about. "They have lost any connection with the religion of their parents and grandparents," he says. A recent government survey showed that 40 percent of Iranians living in Germany identified themselves as having no religion, as did 23 percent of North Africans. In the Netherlands, the proportion of Muslims who regularly attend the mosque—27 percent—is lower than the proportion of Protestants who go to church."


...and on the 'endangered' Black population of the UK (and when I say 'Black' I mean those not of mixed race):

http://www.afroromance.com/blog/study-interracial-relationships-causing-black-people-in-the-uk-to-disappear.htm

January 20th, 2009
Study: Interracial Relationships Causing Black People in the UK to Disappear



“If population projections based on the national census are to be believed, people who describe themselves as ‘mixed race’ could become the largest, single, ethnic minority group in the UK within the next 25 years.” - Laura Smith (The Catalyst Magazine)

MediaTakeOut.com claims having got hold of an article in one of the UK newspapers suggesting that Black folk (Caribbean Black folk in particular) are in danger of disappearing because of the rise in interracial relationships in the UK.

Apparently, 1 in 10 children in the UK come from mixed-race families. Going by the study’s prediction, if current trends (interracial relationships and marriages) continue, some ethnic minorities may cease to exist as mixed-race individuals become more common.

The study also shows that some ethnic groups are more likely to be in interracial relationships. Going by the figures provided by the study, 48% of Black Caribbean men and 34 per cent of Black Caribbean women are in interracial relationships in contrast to those of Pakistani backgrounds (8% men and 6% women).

Do you think we should worry ourselves over some ethnic groups disappearing due to interracial relationships or should we instead look at it from a different perspective – that racism in the UK is disappearing?

Minato ku
January 2nd, 2010, 09:15 PM
True interracial relation is very common in France and UK. (Especially black white but not only)
Now as we still have immigration I don't think that black population will disappear.

By the way, According estimation more than 15% of muslims in France marry with non muslims.
A very high number for a community that is said to highly segegrated and separated of the rest of the society according many medias. ;)
The reality is that the muslims are a way more integrated than it is said.

I also hate how international media speak as they only where white "native" french and north african muslims immigrant in France

First most muslims are not immigrant, I don't even know if I would use the term muslims.
Secular muslims is a better one.

Secondly many white french are son, grand son or great son etc of immigrant especially in city like Marseille. (Nicolas Sarkosy is the son of hungarian immigrant and it is far to be the only exemple)
So I don't see why a white of Marseille would be more native than a muslims, it is not because some people (unfortunely too many people) think in this way that it is true.

Thirdly, we also have many other minorities.

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 09:14 AM
It is hard to read things so unfortunate in a forum.

Tell me, can I build a Christian church in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia or Nigeria ...? Can a European Christian walk with a gold cross on the neck or clothes or Christian symbols in the streets of Algeria, Egypt, Syria or Iraq? Can a Christian eat pork or drink scotch in a bar of a Muslim country? It is very easy to come illegally to Europe and when you're here ask for your religion the same rights enjoyed by Christians. Where is the reciprocity? Muslims in Europe can not ask what they deny other religions in their country of origin.


btw, there are thousands of Christian churches (alongside cathedrals, convents and monasteries) in Islamic countries, please just check this thread out, it's pretty eye-opening. Theyre not all like Saudi Arabia (that forbids them - though the Saudi king did recently meet with the Pope to discuss building a major church there):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=970006



.

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 09:28 AM
Some highlights of churches in Muslim countries of over 90 percent :)

Coptic Cathedral Cairo

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Y1ySeu539TI/R6chc8v1T5I/AAAAAAAAAak/I5s7cL2ragI/s640/DSC02141.JPG http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0csi2Fbffm3Vr/610x.jpg

St Mark's Cathedral, Cairo

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Ghamra_2.jpg/800px-Ghamra_2.jpg

All Saint's Anglican, Cairo

http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/sse/Photos/Selected/SSE50.JPG

Orthodox cathedral, Cairo

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/3965732521_fe203dce36_b.jpg

Orthodox Easter at the Holy See of Cairo

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cvl93L0tm24l/610x.jpg http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0atg8RweZG9CG/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09TN5LMekf96Q/610x.jpg http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dFefeE9D0bxl/610x.jpg

St Michael Aswan Cathedral

http://wahidnd.com/wp-content/gallery/architecture/n_mg_1141-aswan-cathedral.jpg

St Bishoy Monastery

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Coptic_Christian_Church_outside.JPG/800px-Coptic_Christian_Church_outside.JPG

St Catherine Monastery

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2395/2377747914_25d10d00de_b.jpg

Moqattan Coptic Church of the Rocks

http://images.travelpod.com/users/inoursuitcase/freedom_07-08.1223650500.coptic-church.jpg http://images.travelpod.com/users/inoursuitcase/freedom_07-08.1223650500.coptic-church-above-the-garbage-city.jpg


St Mark Cathedral, Alexandria

http://www.dioceseofegypt.org/english/sites/default/files/St.%20Marks%201.jpg

Church of the Annunciation, Alexandria

http://www.onassis.gr/images/cathedral_egypt_03.jpg http://www.onassis.gr/images/cathedral_egypt_01.jpg http://www.onassis.gr/images/cathedral_egypt_02.jpg

Alexandria Cathedral, and other major Alexandrine churches

http://egypt.aaagb.net/pic/cairo-giza-alexandria/coptic-church-alexandria-2.jpg, http://egypt.aaagb.net/pic/cairo-giza-alexandria/coptic-church-alexandria-1.jpg http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41561000/jpg/_41561006_alexandria2ap203.jpg


Algiers Cathedral

http://www.old-picture.com/europe/pictures/Cathedral-Algiers.jpg

Cathedrale Notre Dame d'Afrique, Algiers

http://ea.img.v4.skyrock.com/ea8/icosiumcity/pics/1076928718.jpg http://www.adn.es/clipping/ADNIMA20090413_0996/4.jpg

Cathedrale de Sacre Couer, Algiers

http://h.imagehost.org/0705/sacre_coeur.jpg

http://www.immadras.com/Alger/slides/200510_alger-166e.jpg http://www.visoterra.com/images/inter/med-cathedrale-du-sacre-coeur-a-alger-visoterra-21057.jpg

Basilica of St Augustin d'Hippone, Annaba, Algeria

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/218983931_6c42819631_o.jpg

http://g.imagehost.org/0311/basilic2.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/0931/basilic3.jpg

Basilica of Santa Cruz, Oran, Algeria

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/103/307946169_6cd5880667_o.jpg

Church of Mostaganem, Algeria

http://www.monsterup.com/upload/1234364112.jpg

http://www.monsterup.com/upload/1235399406.jpg



St Stephanos Cathedral, Jolffa, Iran

http://www.chnphoto.ir/pattern.php?image=IMG_8555.jpg

Vank Cathedral, Esfahan, Iran

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2129/2052852000_dfbbe79bc8_o.jpg

http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/CyrusShahmiri/2005-08-01_123356_Church11.jpg http://media.farsnews.com/Media/8502/ImageNews/850204/31_850204_L600.jpg


St Sarkis Cathedral, Tehran

http://www.payvand.com/news/05/apr/armenians-march-tehran1.jpg

http://ivmp.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/51.jpg http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7813/528224233risblmph6gr.jpg

St Thaddeus, Markku, Iran

http://chnphotoagency.ir/pattern.php?image=BLACK1~5.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2459/254xi.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5165/30yn.jpg http://www.chnphoto.ir/pattern.php?image=BLACK7~1.jpg

Christmas in Tehran

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/8b55ac6ca78f31cbe31797a7e1f6a713/IRAN-CHRISTMAS-SHOPPING.jpg

http://tehrandaily.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/christmas_night_in_tehran_19.jpg http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/12.21.05/pix/GulfChristmas.jpg

http://bahaicatholic.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/xmira10.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/SdTVAXpjKRI/AAAAAAAAFFA/J17R35fSC38/s400/Ethnic+Armenians,+Iran%27s+largest+Christian+minor ity,+on+Christmas+Eve..jpg


main Christian Churches of Iran are:
Armenian Apostolic Church of Iran
Assyrian Church of the East of Iran
Chaldean Catholic Church of Iran
various Protestant denominations, most important of which are:
Presbyterian, including the Assyrian Evangelical Church
Jama'at-e Rabbani (the Iranian Assemblies of God churches)
and the Anglican Church of Iran.


our Lady of the Rosary, Doha, Qatar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Church_of_Our_Lady_of_the_Rosary%2C_Doha%2C_Qatar. jpg/800px-Church_of_Our_Lady_of_the_Rosary%2C_Doha%2C_Qatar. jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2396/2335291678_cab8c3f9fe_b.jpg

Orthodox Coptic Church, Abu Dhabi, UAE

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/9696056.jpg

Catholic Cathedral, Kuwait

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8624/cuzcuzpaulista.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/117/297174335_a010edcfe1.jpg?v=0 http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/091hcrnfnD6Kq/610x.jpg

St Paul Cathedral, Rabat, Morocco

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2321/2194224680_f311d94534_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2342331167_93c52c4148_b.jpg

Sacre Couer Cathedral, Casablanca

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jacques.lapeyre/jpg/casablanca7.jpg

Notre Dame Cathedral, Casablanca

http://photosmaghreb.canalblog.com/images/maroc1972.JPG

Tangier Cathedral

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_38-Zgu3xt-A/Stq0KsWv5zI/AAAAAAAAHx4/DhsZ43ffNhE/s1024/P1040637.JPG

Tangier Catholic Church

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2331/2188674697_93c10f63f2_b.jpg

San Bartoleme, Asilah, Morocco

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/2882028002_ea98302f4c_b.jpg

St Patrick's Cathedral, Pakistan

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/2484157393_34b5645ecd_b.jpg

Catholic Cathedral, Jakarta

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/109152876_6be939e0aa_b.jpg

Church of Yogjakarta, Indonesia

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/53035241_fdef992ce3_b.jpg

Mogadishu RC Cathedral, Somalia

http://i35.tinypic.com/2w2qxxg.jpg http://i36.tinypic.com/674lma.jpg

Basilica of St Paul, Beirut

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/rhmud/Lebanon/142927503sUxmLw_ph.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5291/34991942rm.jpg

Armenian catholic Cathedral, Beirut

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/rhmud/Lebanon/77265389412b08dac3b8uv.jpg

Our Lady of Lebanon Shrine and Basilica, Harissa

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/rhmud/Lebanon/109087740dyDJgG_ph.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6831/adasdfsdfs5ep.png http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7288/1722dscn54379ne.jpg

St Anthony of Padua, Istanbul

http://i33.tinypic.com/2mz0do8.jpg

St Stephen Bulgarian Church, Istanbul

http://i37.tinypic.com/30c5849.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/10yn9sw.jpg

Holy Trinity, Istanbul

http://i34.tinypic.com/5f4ubq.jpg http://i35.tinypic.com/2yv9qwn.jpg

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 09:48 AM
Syria

http://www.pictureninja.com/pages/syria/hama-roman-orthodox-church.jpg http://www.azad-hye.net/photos/photoalbumimgs/catholicos-aram-in-syria-2009-10.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Frescos_in_Saint_Elian_Church_-_Hims,_Syria.jpg

http://www.travel-images.com/syria273.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08zEdDX0do1Bo/610x.jpg http://nimg.sulekha.com/Others/original700/ml-mideast-syria-easter-2009-4-19-5-21-10.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/aleppo-churches-pictures/armenian-church-of-40-martyrs-altar-c-hov.jpg


http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/maalula-photos/slides/maalula-mar-takla-monastery-church-c-phool.jpg http://www.azad-hye.net/media/s2/catholicos-aram-in-syria-2008-02.jpg

http://www.molon.de/galleries/Syria/Damascus/Churches/images01/09%20Syriac%20Catholic%20church%20and%20fountain.j pg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08t5gd4asPeUn/610x.jpg http://www.britishorthodox.org/115h_clip_image002.jpg

Malloula shrine
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3238/img4101s.jpg

Monastery of Saidnaya

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b7/Saidnaya_@_sunset_2003.bmp.jpg

...


Jordan

http://www.twip.org/photo/middle-east/jordan/photo-11517-22-07-08-15-28-33.jpg http://uvcarmel.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Orthodox_church_in_Amman1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/2985496506_da2536d979_b.jpg

http://shots.ikbis.com/image/2633/screen/the_church.jpg http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090508/GAL-09May08-2002/media/PHO-09May08-161254.jpg


Iraq

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/04/11/gal_friday9.jpg$http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/081016_iraqi_christians11.jpg

http://blog.cleveland.com/world_impact/2008/12/large_iraq2x.jpg http://www.windsofchange.net/images/PERS_Iraq_2007_St_Johns_Come-Home_Michael_Yon_400.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/398550140_e5652fcdeb.jpg

Fabrizio
January 3rd, 2010, 10:03 AM
^ These photos can give a false image that all is well for Christians in these countries. It is often not. Look into Ahmadinejad's Iran for starters.

Oh.... and those Churches in Cairo are particularly lovely:

"While the Egyptian government does not have a policy to persecute Christians, it discriminates against them and hampers their freedom of worship. Its agencies sporadically persecute Muslim converts to Christianity. The government enforces Hamayouni Decree restrictions on building or repairing churches. These same restrictions, however, do not apply to mosques.

"The government has effectively restricted Christians from senior government, diplomatic, military, and educational positions, and there has been increasing discrimination in the private sector. The government subsidizes media which attack Christianity and restricts Christians access to the state-controlled media."

"In Egypt the government does not officially recognize conversions from Islam to Christianity; because certain interfaith marriages are not allowed either, this prevents marriages between converts to Christianity and those born in Christian communities, and also results in the children of Christian converts being classified as Muslims and given a Muslim education. The government also applies religiously-discriminatory laws and practices concerning clergy salaries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

--

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 10:27 AM
btw, there are thousands of Christian churches (alongside cathedrals, convents and monasteries) in Islamic countries, please just check this thread out, it's pretty eye-opening. Theyre not all like Saudi Arabia (that forbids them):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=970006

Happy New Year Zupermaus. It is always a pleasure to meet you again in WNY-F. You're a great BULLFIGHTER to me,... the best in this BULLRING called WNY-F !!!

Viva ZUPERMAUS !!!,
oOOOoooleeee!!!, oOOOOoooleeee !!!


Yes, I Know about these churchs. I've written about of many churchs in Muslim countries in WNY-F, in the thread of "Religious Architecture".

But now the question is different to me: we are talking about Marseille and the problems of muslims in the Southern of Europe.

I think MidtownGuy don't know what he says, because he's the tipycal american boy that talk about this problems without intelligence.

For example, this is the latest project to build a Great Mosque in Spain. It has a tiny minaret of 330 meters high,... you Know: a small store with a dirty chimney, isn't it?,... because Spaniards (we are Europeans, aren't we?...) are most racists (maybe not multiculturals) than americans,... like says the "unforgettable" MidtownGuy.



http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr172/DrT_70/mosque1.jpg


http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr172/DrT_70/mosque2.jpg

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 10:44 AM
http://www.e-architect.co.uk/london/jpgs/mangera_yvars_abbey_mills_77.jpg http://www.altmuslim.com/ee_images/abbeymills_mosque_london.jpg

^yep, London's also doing something major - currently in plans to build the 'Mega Mosque' for 40,000, and capacity up to 70,000 with surrounding buildings during religious festivals. Its right next to the Olympic site, and the new CBD at Stratford. Its controversial of course, not just the fact it will supplant all the major cathedrals as the religious centre of the city, but mostly due to the increased volume of traffic/ people etc in the area (many of the areas residents, many of whom are Muslim, are against it due to this).

Of course a mega-cathedral is also in the plans for the mostly Anglican African community, so this too may be supplanted in turn.

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 10:45 AM
okie dokey ...

Since i started this thread I'm requesting that we get back on track -- which can include discussion of the Grand Mosque or other mosques in Europe (but not so much the other stuff).

Cordoba has an incredible mosque -- the Great Mosque of Cordoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Córdoba) -- which dates back to ~ 785 AD.

When I saw it back in the early 90s I had the place to myself (but then I had all sorts of fantastic places to myself, as I was traveling during the midst of the World Cup and wherever I went -- whether in Italy, Spain or Portugal -- everyone seemed to be sitting in front of a television set).

http://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/madge/cordoba_great_mosque/600x/cordoba_great_mosque_600x.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Mosque_of_Cordoba_Spain.jpg

More photos at the ArchNet Digital Library (http://www.archnet.org/library/images/thumbnails.jsp?location_id=1422) - Great Mosque of Cordoba

Since 1236 is a Catholic Cathedral. The owner is Catholic Church (Diocese of Córdoba). Muslims are forbidden to pray inside. Today the former Great Mosque of Cordoba and the Cathedral of Santa María (built inside) are a World Heritage Site (UNESCO).

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 11:01 AM
^yep, London's also doing something major - currently in plans to build the 'Mega Mosque' for 40,000, and capacity up to 70,000 with surrounding buildings during religious festivals. Its right next to the Olympic site, and the new CBD at Stratford. Its controversial of course, not just the fact it will supplant all the major cathedrals as the religious centre of the city, but mostly due to the increased volume of traffic/ people etc in the area (many of the areas residents, many of whom are Muslim, are against it due to this).

Of course a mega-cathedral is also in the plans for the mostly Anglican African community, so this too may be supplanted in turn.

In Spain there have been problems in building large mosques. The reason is always the same: Muslims in Spain are mostly people from Morocco and Algeria for training low (they often work in greenhouse collecting tomato crops, lettuce or flowers) and many are marginal (dedicated to crime).

The Spanish when the City Council tells them in his district wants to build a mosque, they do not want it because they know that then the district could become a Muslim ghetto.

It's a eternal problem.

lofter1
January 3rd, 2010, 11:08 AM
Since 1236 is a Catholic Cathedral. The owner is Catholic Church (Diocese of Córdoba).


I didn't know that. No wonder it was empty when I went there.

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 11:09 AM
In London its not so much a problem as its very hard to build any kind of 'ghetto' due to vertiginous house prices and speculating (not for want of trying Im sure Londoners would create them if given half a chance), and traditional mixing of income types in housing - to this day all new developments, even the luxury ones have by law to devote 30-50% of itself to affordable homes. Meanwhile poor rundown areas are now being colonised by the middle classes unable to afford the rip-off prices demanded for in the city.

Also the Muslims in London have relatively low crime rates, even though some are very poor- some areas of the city such as Brick Lane and Whitechapel are some of the poorest, but adversely some of the safest. The word on the street for property buyers keen to get on the ladder is to try and move into areas mixed with traditional Muslim or West African communities, as the prices are cheap and the crime is low - the kind of areas attracting artists and creatives, and thus regeneration. Neighbourhoods such as Whitechapel, Hoxton (both with large Bangladeshi and Somali communities), Deptford (West African), Hackney (West African), Dalston (Turkish, Kurdish), are all now the coolest areas in the capital.

Nb In cairo its also a phenomenon, the Old City, Islamic Cairo is one of the worlds poorest areas, yet strangely one of the safest. Urbanists studying the phenomenon point toward the proximity of housing (any crime will almost always have a witness), combined with traditional values. A plan to build a new park nearby has even led to calls that this will increase the crime rate as it will open up the area.

...anyway Im a bit off track again, back to topic...

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 11:14 AM
A small example of Spanish multiculturalism to MidtownGuy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 11:22 AM
In London its not so much a problem as its very hard to build any kind of 'ghetto' due to vertiginous house prices and speculating (not for want of trying Im sure Londoners would create them if given half a chance), and traditional mixing of income types in housing - to this day all new developments, even the luxury ones have by law to devote 30-50% of itself to affordable homes. Meanwhile poor rundown areas are now being colonised by the middle classes unable to afford the rip-off prices demanded for in the city.

Also the Muslims in London have relatively low crime rates, even though some are very poor- some areas of the city such as Brick Lane and Whitechapel are some of the poorest, but adversely some of the safest. The word on the street for property buyers keen to get on the ladder is to try and move into areas mixed with traditional Muslim or West African communities, as the prices are cheap and the crime is low - the kind of areas attracting artists and creatives, and thus regeneration. Neighbourhoods such as Whitechapel, Hoxton (both with large Bangladeshi and Somali communities), Deptford (West African), Hackney (West African), Dalston (Turkish, Kurdish), are all now the coolest areas in the capital.

Nb In cairo its also a phenomenon, the Old City, Islamic Cairo is one of the worlds poorest areas, yet strangely one of the safest. Urbanists studying the phenomenon point toward the proximity of housing (any crime will almost always have a witness), combined with traditional values. A plan to build a new park nearby has even led to calls that this will increase the crime rate as it will open up the area.

...anyway Im a bit off track again, back to topic...



Today 20% of existing prisoners in Spanish jails are Muslims: Moroccans, Algerians, Albanians, Kosovars, Bosnian, Turkish ...

In Spanish jails are 3 menus for lunch: the normal, low in calories and Muslim.

Spain is the site of entry of all North Africans trying to reach Europe (France, UK or Germany). That's the problem with Spain, ... its geostrategic location along the Strait of Gibraltar. In addition you must not forget that Morocco is the world's leading producer of hashish, ... another problem!.

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 11:30 AM
In the UK the Muslim prison population is about 7,000 out of 82,000, or 8.5%

Fabrizio
January 3rd, 2010, 11:32 AM
"Spain is the site of entry of all North Africans trying to reach Europe"

Also Italy.

The problem that Spain and Italy face with immigration from Northern Africa is similair to the Amercan states close to Mexico.

----------

I don't see statistics for Muslims held in American jails but the situation for Blacks and Hispanics is this:

(percentage of prison population in 2006)

Black males 35.4 percent.

Hispanic males 17.9 percent."



http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5009270&page=1


--

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 11:35 AM
I didn't know that. No wonder it was empty when I went there.

Do not worry, it's normal. For example, in the Alhambra of Granada was also built inside a Church and a Renaissance Palace (Carlos V Palace). The tower of the Cathedral of Seville (the famous Giralda) was the former minaret of the Great Mosque of Seville.

Dr.T
January 3rd, 2010, 11:45 AM
"Spain is the site of entry of all North Africans trying to reach Europe"

Also Italy.

The problem that Spain and Italy face with immigration from Northern Africa is similair to the Amercan states close to Mexico.

----------

I don't see statistics for Muslims held in American jails but the situation for Blacks and Hispanics is this:

(percentage of prison population in 2006)

Black males 35.4 percent.

Hispanic males 17.9 percent."



http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5009270&page=1


--

Yes, you´re right. Italy is another great gate. But imagine what is the problem in Ceuta or Melilla... Too much !!!

lofter1
January 3rd, 2010, 12:11 PM
Due to opposition to the London "Mega Mosque" project the architects (Ali Mangera and Ada Yvars Bravo / MYAA) who drew up that mosque plan were sacked (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23394453-architects-sacked-over-designs-for-huge-mosque.do) back in 2007.

The architect's website (http://www.myaa-arq.com/) now shows nothing of the scheme.

According to the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/world/europe/04megamosque.html) there is a new plan for a smaller mosque (holding up to 12,000 worshippers):




In Mr. Mangara’s place, an establishment London architectural firm, Allies & Morrison (http://www.alliesandmorrison.co.uk/), known for projects like refurbishing Royal Festival Hall, has been hired to build a smaller version, which would hold about 12,000.

A developer, Sohail Sarbuland, a Muslim but not a member of Tablighi Jamaat, has pledged the money for the building permits.

Mr. Mangara and others say any breaking of ground will be delayed until after the 2012 Olympics. The issue will be finessed by a slow design process, and delays in the planning process ...

That new plan, now known as the Abbey Mills Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Mills_Mosque), is way behind schedule (http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/daily-news/mega-mosque-project-still-stuck-in-sidings/5210050.article) and the building's future remains uncertain.




http://www.e-architect.co.uk/london/jpgs/mangera_yvars_abbey_mills_77.jpg http://www.altmuslim.com/ee_images/abbeymills_mosque_london.jpg
... London's also doing something major - currently in plans to build the 'Mega Mosque' for 40,000, and capacity up to 70,000 with surrounding buildings during religious festivals.

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 12:55 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash: :(

philistines! I hope they keep the revised building the same kind of form....

Minato ku
January 3rd, 2010, 01:20 PM
A mosque with a 70,000 capacity was too ambicious and this project was not really beautiful.
Anyway there is something that I liked, it is the modernity of the architecture.
It is not the pseudo islamist architecture that we see in many of our european mosque.

I hope the design of the new project will also be modern.

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 01:48 PM
The design was great. I suppose i'm of the ilk that still thinks bigger is better, it's just the wow factor that gets me every time.:(

I reckon it was vetoed, underhandedly, not because it was too large but because it was too Islamic a cultural icon to add to the city's monuments.


Grrrr....

lofter1
January 3rd, 2010, 02:05 PM
Many locals claimed the area was already too crowded.

Didn't see so many make that argument about the Olympic Stadium going in close by.

Fabrizio
January 3rd, 2010, 02:48 PM
Protesters are worried about the Tablighi Jamaat who have been under investigation in the US:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/14/national/14ISLA.html?pagewanted=1

zupermaus
January 3rd, 2010, 02:48 PM
Many locals claimed the area was already too crowded.

Didn't see so many make that argument about the Olympic Stadium going in close by.

feckin nimbys! :mad: Sun-reading, Daily Mail worshipping, Sky news watching, Conservative voting nimbys. Terrified their children will grow up into shoe bombers.

Fabrizio
January 3rd, 2010, 02:55 PM
^ Why is the group under investigation?

From the above article:

"American and European law enforcement officials say Tablighi Jamaat’s simple message masks a fertile recruiting ground for terrorists."

(BTW the Detroit bomber was part of this group).

In the US the FBI is planting listening devices and infiltrating Mosques... are their worries just silliness? They've got nothing better to do?

--

lofter1
January 3rd, 2010, 05:02 PM
This article from the Islamic Academy website condemns the group:

Tableeghi Jamaat Exposed (http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Articles/English/Tableeghee%20Jma'at.htm)




... the Tableeghi Jamaat wants to be an exclusive sect of Muslims, which excludes all other Muslims who do not follow its peculiar definition of what it means to convey the message of Islam, a definition which is clearly and erroneous and far removed from the one which Allah gives in the Quran. One can only conclude from this statement that all other Muslims are considered by them to be misguided.

An article from the Middle East Forum (http://www.meforum.org/meq/editors.php):

Tablighi Jamaat: Jihad's Stealthy Legions (http://www.meforum.org/686/tablighi-jamaat-jihads-stealthy-legions)

by Alex Alexiev
Middle East Quarterly
Winter 2005

[NOTE: Mr. Alexiev was, for 20 years, a senior analyst with the national security division at the Rand Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAND)]

Every fall, over a million almost identically dressed, bearded Muslim men from around the world descend on the small Pakistani town of Raiwind for a three-day celebration of faith. Similar gatherings take place annually outside of Dhaka, Bangladesh, and Bhopal, India. These pilgrims are no ordinary Muslims, though; they belong to a movement called Tablighi Jamaat ("Proselytizing Group"). They are trained missionaries who have dedicated much of their lives to spreading Islam across the globe. The largest group of religious proselytizers of any faith, they are part of the reason for the explosive growth of Islamic religious fervor and conversion.

Despite its size, worldwide presence, and tremendous importance, Tablighi Jamaat remains largely unknown outside the Muslim community, even to many scholars of Islam. This is no coincidence. Tablighi Jamaat officials work to remain outside of both media and governmental notice ...

Wolf in Sheep's Clothing

... The West's misreading of Tablighi Jamaat actions and motives has serious implications for the war on terrorism. Tablighi Jamaat has always adopted an extreme interpretation of Sunni Islam, but in the past two decades, it has radicalized to the point where it is now a driving force of Islamic extremism and a major recruiting agency for terrorist causes worldwide. For a majority of young Muslim extremists, joining Tablighi Jamaat is the first step on the road to extremism. Perhaps 80 percent of the Islamist extremists in France come from Tablighi ranks, prompting French intelligence officers to call Tablighi Jamaat the "antechamber of fundamentalism."[12] U.S. counterterrorism officials are increasingly adopting the same attitude. "We have a significant presence of Tablighi Jamaat in the United States," the deputy chief of the FBI's international terrorism section said in 2003, "and we have found that Al-Qaeda used them for recruiting now and in the past."[13]

(...)

Another violent Tablighi Jamaat spin-off is the Harakat ul-Jihad-i Islami.[17] Founded in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, this group has been active not only in the disputed Indian provinces of Jammu and Kashmir but also in the state of Gujarat, where Tablighi Jamaat extremists have taken over perhaps 80 percent of the mosques previously run by the moderate Barelvi Muslims.[18] The Tablighi movement is also very active in northern Africa where it became one of the four groups that founded the Islamic Salvation Front in Algeria. Moroccan authorities are currently prosecuting sixty members of the Moroccan Tablighi offshoot Dawa wa Tabligh in connection with the May 16, 2003 terrorist attack on a Casablanca synagogue.[19] Dutch police are investigating links between the Moroccan cells and the November 2, 2004 murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh.[20]

A Trojan Horse for Terror in America?

Within the United States, the cases of American Taliban John Lindh, the "Lackawanna Six," and the Oregon cell that conspired to bomb a synagogue and sought to link up with Al-Qaeda,[30] all involve Tablighi missionaries.[31] Other indicted terrorists, such as "shoe bomber" Richard Reid, "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla, and Lyman Harris, who sought to bomb the Brooklyn Bridge, were all members of Tablighi Jamaat at one time or another.[32] According to Robert Blitzer, head of the FBI's first Islamic counterterrorism unit, between 1,000 and 2,000 Americans left to join the jihad in the 1990s alone.[33] Pakistani intelligence sources report that 400 American Tablighi recruits received training in Pakistani or Afghan terrorist camps since 1989.[34]

(...)

The American political system tolerates all views so long as they adhere to the rule of law. Unfortunately, Tablighi Jamaat missionaries may be encouraging African American recruits to break the law. Harkat ul-Mujahideen has boasted of training dozens of African American jihadists in its military camps. There is evidence that African American jihadists have died in both Afghanistan and Kashmir.[43]

Tablighi Jamaat: The Future of American Islam?

Tablighi Jamaat has made unprecedented strides in recent decades. It increasingly relies on local missionaries rather than South Asian Tablighis to recruit in Western countries and often sets up groups which apparently model themselves after Tablighi Jamaat but do not acknowledge links to it.[44]

In the United States, such a role is apparently played by the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) ... While the relationship between ICNA and Tablighi Jamaat is not clear, the two organizations share a number of similarities. They both embrace the extreme Deobandi and Wahhabi interpretations of Islam ... As with Tablighi Jamaat, ICNA demands total dedication to missionary work from its members. Because many ICNA members spend at least thirty hours per week on their mission,[49] their ability to independently support themselves is unclear. Many cannot hold full-time jobs. ICNA's recruitment efforts have borne fruit, though. All ICNA members are organized in small study groups of no more than eight people, called NeighborNets. As in a cult, these cells provide support and reinforcement for new recruits, who may have sought to fill a void in their lives. Its yearly convocations, patterned on the annual Tablighi Jamaat meetings in South Asia, now attract some 15,000 people.[50] ...

Alex Alexiev is vice president for research at the Center for Security Policy (http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.xml) in Washington, D.C.

***

Some prominent members of the Center for Security Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Security_Policy):


Richard Perle - Former Chair of the Defense Policy Board

Douglas J. Feith - Former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy

Laura Ingraham - talk radio host[3]

Some folks recently honored by the CSP with their "Keeper of the Flame Award":


2007 - Senator Joe Lieberman (ID-CT)

2005 - Sen. James Inhofe and the Heroes of the Homefront

2003 - Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense and the Liberators of Iraq

1998 - Donald H. Rumsfeld, former and future Secretary of Defense

MidtownGuy
January 3rd, 2010, 08:58 PM
Happy New Year Zupermaus. It is always a pleasure to meet you again in WNY-F. You're a great BULLFIGHTER to me,... the best in this BULLRING called WNY-F !!!

Zupermaus has always posted wonderful threads here and we are fortunate to have him! I enjoyed looking at all of the churches in Islamic countries. So many interesting interpretations. But I'm curious about the "bullfighter" line. Zupermaus has a peaceful presence here, as far as I know. And WNY is hardly a bullring. This forum is much more civil than places like SSC.


I think MidtownGuy don't know what he says, because he's the tipycal american boy that talk about this problems without intelligence.

^BUT, I see that you are bringing some of that SSC douche-bagginess over here...starting off with insults; it's the wrong way to go.

Until this point, I had no real animosity toward you...I have enjoyed your Murcia contributions and other posts regarding Spain. Yet after a brief exchange on this thread, I see you trying to instigate and disturb the peace with an aggressive and nasty statement like the one above.

Cool your jets.

Otra cosa...I think I must be far from the "typical American boy", if he exists as you imagine. :rolleyes:
I'm a proudly-left-wing, gay, self-employed artist and political activist who spends at least 3 months a year in... :eek:Europe:eek:. Oh my.

Now...I would like us to continue in a more pleasant way. Otherwise, go jump off a bridge.

MidtownGuy
January 3rd, 2010, 09:02 PM
zupermaus:
The article you linked to regarding the disappearance of Black people (:rolleyes:)
can hardly be taken seriously. "Afroromance.com" has an interesting perspective on this, I'm sure. Anyway, there are all sorts of questions about how one defines Black. Their way seems problematic...some sort of "purebred" nonsense or something? It's meaningless drivel...aimed at provoking, not real science or reason.
The article you linked to at Afroromance.com links back to the original at mediatakeout, where a typically sensationalist headline screams about an EXPLOSIVE! study. Bullocks.

ZippyTheChimp
January 3rd, 2010, 11:00 PM
Dr T:

I don't think you should be speaking of people "talking without intelligence" when you make uniformed remarks like:
The Americans are a thousand times more racist than Europeans and speak happily of the topic of Islam because Africa and Asia is far from the United States.

Douchebaggery indeed.

Dr.T
January 4th, 2010, 07:48 PM
Dr T:

I don't think you should be speaking of people "talking without intelligence" when you make uniformed remarks like:

Douchebaggery indeed.

I've never said: "I am a man with intelligence",... I'm Spaniard, you know. Any problem?

Happy New Year ZippyTheChimp.

Dr.T
January 4th, 2010, 08:09 PM
^BUT, I see that you are bringing some of that SSC douche-bagginess over here...starting off with insults; it's the wrong way to go.

Until this point, I had no real animosity toward you...I have enjoyed your Murcia contributions and other posts regarding Spain. Yet after a brief exchange on this thread, I see you trying to instigate and disturb the peace with an aggressive and nasty statement like the one above.

Cool your jets.

Otra cosa...I think I must be far from the "typical American boy", if he exists as you imagine. :rolleyes:
I'm a proudly-left-wing, gay, self-employed artist and political activist who spends at least 3 months a year in... :eek:Europe:eek:. Oh my.

Now...I would like us to continue in a more pleasant way. Otherwise, go jump off a bridge.

I very much like what you do with your life,... but I am a Real Madrid fan and I like bullfighting, beauty women and good wine... and I am very happy with it.

Do you not like bullfighting? Well, in a few weeks will be in Las Vegas several runs, ... you can go to see them and then tell me what you think.
In Spain if an American does not like bullfighting is: "... another typical American boy", ... not everyone has the capacity to appreciate the ART OF BULLFIGHTING.

See you, MidtownGuy.

Fabrizio
January 4th, 2010, 09:21 PM
^ ( ...sounds more like the art of bullshitting if you ask me.)

------------

Now this is just not cool:

British P.M. ‘Appalled’ by Protest Plan

By JOHN F. BURNS - NYTIMES
Published: January 4, 2010

LONDON — A radical Islamic group planning a protest march through the streets of a town that has achieved iconic status in Britain for honoring the passing hearses of British soldiers killed in Afghanistan ran into a stiff rebuff from the British government on Monday.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown issued a statement saying he was “personally appalled” by the group’s plan to march through the streets of Wootton Bassett, a town 50 miles west of London where townspeople have lined the sidewalks since April 2007 to mourn the passing corteges of British military casualties flown home to the nearby military airbase at Lyneham.

“Wootton Bassett has a special significance for us all at this time, as it has been the scene of the repatriation of many members of our armed forces who have tragically fallen,” Mr. Brown said. “Any attempt to use this location to cause further distress and suffering to those who have lost loved ones would be abhorrent and offensive.”

Plans for staging the march were laid out in a letter sent by Anjem Choudary, the leader of a group called Islam4UK, to the families of the 246 British soldiers killed in Afghanistan since the toppling of the Taliban in 2001. The organization describes itself as a “platform” for promoting the views of an extremist Islamic group, Al Muhajiroun, which praised the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States as heroes, but disbanded in 2005 in response to a British government order banning it.

Complete article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/05/world/europe/05march.html?ref=global-home

Dr.T
January 4th, 2010, 10:38 PM
Last night 73 immigrants trying to enter in Spain illegally crossing Mediterranean Sea from North Africa. They were the first of 2010



Llegan las primeras pateras del año a Granada, Almería y Murcia

http://img.europapress.es/fotoweb/fotonoticia_20100104085935.jpgFoto: Reuters
MADRID, 4 Ene. (EUROPA PRESS) -


Tres pateras con un total de 73 inmigrantes a bordo fueron interceptadas a lo largo de este domingo cuando navegaban en aguas de Granada, Almería y Murcia. Se trata de la primera oleada de este tipo de embarcaciones que trata de llegar a las costas españolas desde que comenzó el año.
La primera patera, con 43 inmigrantes a bordo, fue interceptada sobre las 13.00 horas a unas 15 millas al sureste de Motril, en Granada. Al lugar se trasladó la Guardia Civil y la Guardemar 'Caliopez' de Salvamento Marítimo.
Agentes de la Guardia Civil y Salvamento Marítimo rescataron a los inmigrantes y los trasladaron hasta el puerto de Motril, donde llegaron sobre las 16.00 horas. Una vez en tierra, fueron asistidos por miembros de Cruz Roja, que les proporcionaron ropa seca y comida, y posteriormente trasladados al centro de acogida del que dispone el Puerto de Motril.
Horas después, otros 18 magrebíes adultos fueron trasladados esta tarde al puerto de Almería por Salvamento Marítimo tras ser interceptada la patera en la que viajaban a 27 millas del sureste de Cabo de Gata.
Fuentes de Salvamento Marítimo informaron a Europa Press de que la patera fue detectada a las 13.00 horas de hoy y rescatada a las 17.30 horas gracias a la embarcación Salvamar 'Denébola', perteneciente a Salvamento Marítimo de Almería, así como por la patrullera Río Jiloca del Cuerpo de la Guardia Civil. Todos los inmigrantes presentaban un aparente buen estado de salud.
Asimismo, una tercera embarcación con 12 inmigrantes de nacionalidad argelina a bordo --diez varones adultos, una mujer y un menor-- fue interceptada en aguas de Murcia.
El Servicio de Vigilancia Aduanera avistó a mediodía una embarcación rápida de unos 4,5 metros de eslora y 15 cv a unas 30 millas de Cabo de Palos (44,5 kilómetros), que fue rescatada a primeras horas de esta tarde por una patrullera de Salvamento Marítimo, según informaron fuentes de la Delegación del Gobierno en comunicado de prensa.
De acuerdo con el protocolo establecido por la Delegación del Gobierno, tras su rescate han sido trasladados al puerto de Cartagena, donde han recibido la ayuda humanitaria dispensada por Cruz Roja y posteriormente han pasado a disposición del Cuerpo Nacional de Policía para su identificación e inicio de los trámites de devolución a su país de origen.
Según las mismas fuentes, el menor ha sido puesto a disposición del Servicio del Menor de la Comunidad Autónoma.

MidtownGuy
January 4th, 2010, 11:17 PM
Do you not like bullfighting? Well, in a few weeks will be in Las Vegas several runs, ... you can go to see them and then tell me what you think.No thanks. I'll be in Alaska clubbing seals, me and some friends.:rolleyes: And a great time for all, so beautiful 'cause we're gonna wear tight beaded pantaloons while we chase them around.

Anyway, Dr. T-bag, you have some nerve coming on an American forum and talking as much yaya as you do about "American" whatever. If you have so much against Americans, why stick around here? Drink, screw, and kill whatever you want, just don't come up in my face talking all that smack and we'll be fine.

Alonzo-ny
January 5th, 2010, 10:27 AM
This thread is way off base. Take the political stuff to News and Politics unless it is relevant.

And guys, stop the childish insults. It is against forum rules so infractions will follow for continued use.

lofter1
January 5th, 2010, 11:13 AM
Thanks ^

As creator of this thread I gave it a shot a couple of pages ago, but alas ...

Granted, architecture and politics often go hand in hand so discussion of controversy surrounding the building of the Grand Mosque of Marseilles (and others) is germane.

(but feel free to remove other sillier stuff)

Dr.T
January 5th, 2010, 11:28 AM
Turning to the mosques. What do you think is better? Having a large central mosque and the cleric have politically controlled or have dozens of small mosques scattered with radical clerics inside.

I believe that all these small mosques that have sprung up in France, Italy and Spain without license or authorization (illegal) in the last years should be closed. In a place like that in the Lavapies district of Madrid enlisted Muslims fanatics for the attack of the Atocha station.

Dr.T
January 5th, 2010, 11:44 AM
This thread is way off base. Take the political stuff to News and Politics unless it is relevant.

And guys, stop the childish insults. It is against forum rules so infractions will follow for continued use.

Happy New Year Alonzo-ny. It's very nice to meet you again. :D

This thread starts to remind me to another that there was about Croatia ;)

Dr.T
January 5th, 2010, 04:54 PM
These are images of El Ejido (Almería, Andalusia Community, Spain). This is the most intensive farming in Europe. It is known as the "sea of plastic" by the huge number of greenhouses that exist in the region. Today many of the illegal immigrants arriving in Spain from Africa just in this area of the desert of Almeria work for miserable wages (although in his country are a fortune). The richness of the small town of El Ejido is huge (its people have one of the highest incomes per capita in Europe), but illegal immigrants are a second-class citizens without rights almost. This is an economy based on the maximum benefit and minimum cost, as their greenhouses go up to four harvests a year that nourish the vegetable markets in Europe. Inside the greenhouses in summer reaching up to 65 º C temperature. The living conditions of immigrants can see in the pictures.


Most of the thousands of illegal immigrants who work here are Muslims from North and sub-Saharan Africa (black African) countries such as Ghana, Mali, Senegal, Nigeria, Rwanda... In the Ejido illegal inmigrants are up to 107 different nations. It is estimated that every day crossing the border between Spain and France more than 100 trucks from El Ejido bound for large fruit markets of England, Germany, Russia, Norwa ... A new symbol of the wealth of this small town of Almeria is a residential skyscraper of 120 meters high currently being built there, which is the tallest building in Andalusia today.


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido1.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido2.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido3.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido4.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido5.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido6.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido7.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido8.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido9.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido10.jpg



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido11.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido12.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido13.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido14.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido15.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido16.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido17.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido18.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido19.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido20.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido21.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido22.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido23.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido24.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/ejido25.jpg



http://www.flickr.com/photos/rebelados/sets/72157603226450875/

http://victorcastelogabriel.blogspot.com/2009/07/invernaderos-almeria_19.html

zupermaus
January 6th, 2010, 03:08 AM
Kazan, Russia has just added a main mosque into its Kremlin, to share the space with the cathedral:

http://img-3.photosight.ru/90b/3212016_large.jpeg

Alonzo-ny
January 6th, 2010, 06:18 AM
I have moved the Grand Mosque thread from World Architecture to here.

ablarc
January 6th, 2010, 08:15 AM
Anyway, Dr. T-bag, you have some nerve coming on an American forum and talking as much yaya as you do about "American" whatever. If you have so much against Americans, why stick around here?
yeah ... and, besides, that beat is already nicely covered by kakonsteraro.

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 08:57 AM
Thanks Alonzo, I think is the best solution. This is a multifaceted problem that needs to be analyzed from different angles. Today in Europe we have a very serious problem with this new situation.

When Africans (North Africans, Berbers and Saharan blacks) come to Spain as illegal must follow a complex legal way to get to regularize their situation in Europe. The first step is to enter Spain: Each night dozens of small boats (crossing Mediterranea Sea in the darkness) arriving from Morocco and Algeria to the coast of Andalusia, Murcia and Valencia Communities. If the police intercepts are sent their countries within 3 days if they are Moroccans or Algerians. If they are from another country then go to a special prison called Foreign Detention Center. If extradition treaty exists between the EU and their country of origin they can return there, but to achieve the maximum is 60 days. If they are under 18 years then acquires the status of legal residents in Spain and sent to a special center called the Juvinale Reception Center and when they reach age 18 are free as legal residents in Spain.

What about the Moroccans or Algerians that police fails to stop at sea? What about the Africans after past 60 days will not get be extradited to their country? They are in Spain as foreign (non European Union members) in an "irregular" situation (as distinct "illegal").

Immigration Law in Spain says: if an irregular immigrant lives in Spain for 2 years acquired legal residency status if he commits no crime in that time. What immigrants do is then go to cities like El Ejido (Almería, Andalusia) or Torre Pacheco (Murcia) and they look for work in the greenhouses. They open an account at a bank office, are addressed in the municipal register and attend the nearest hospital (public health in Spain is free and unlimited universal, it is entitled to any individual who is in Spain regardless of legal status ). After 2 years have been living and working as a "slave" in Spanish greenhouses, the immigrant comes to the Immigration Administration and request a lawyer (lawyers in Spain are free if you are poor, regardless of your legal situation in the country) and demonstrates to the Administration with the roles of the bank, hospital and municipal registers that he was living for 2 years in Spain: at that moment is a legal resident in Spain and the European Union and can move freely throughout the European area (excluding the UK which not signed the Schengen Treaty) as well as Switzerland. This is the time in which the Algerians and Moroccans do pack up and they go to live in Belgium, Holland and France.

If they decide to stay in Spain are entitled to request family reunification and bring to Spain to theirs family (parents, wife and children). After 10 years how many Muslims can get into Spain and Europe? Countless, because no reliable statistics for their mobility within the European hinterland.

This problem in the case of Spain is exacerbated by 2 factors: the immigration of Latin America (Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Cuba ...) which adapt quickly and without social problems in Spain (we have the same language and religion) and the arrival of illegal citizens of the United States. Many Americans have no private health insurance to cover treatment of diseases which are very expensive (pancreatic cancer, AIDS ,...). What can do the Americans? They come to Spain as tourists and after 3 months are not going. As public health in Spain is free and universal (drugs too), they come to Spain to cure diseases that in the United States are not entitled to be treated. Today in Madrid is estimated that more than 5,000 Americans are in an irregular situation who come from cities like New York or Boston for surgery or medically treated in Spanish hospitals.

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 09:14 AM
yeah ... and, besides, that beat is already nicely covered by kakonsteraro.

My father was American and Jewish, was born in Sacramento (CA, USA) and spent ten years in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto, near San Francisco). My mother is Spanish and Catholic, born in a small city called Guadalajara (50 km from Madrid). I am Spanish and Catholic and if tomorrow I want an American passport at the Embassy give it because I lived and worked 2 years in the U.S. (New York, Baltimore and San Diego) and I also have properties in San Diego (CA, USA) and Miami (FLO, USA). The Spanish engineers work in many places in the world and won lots of money:... Santiago Calatrava is not the only engineer in Spain.

Curiously, in forums Russians say that I am an "American bastard." I guess that is the problem of being European and being able to write and read in Spanish, English and Russian.

Happy New Year.

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 01:14 PM
Mosque of Valencia (SPA)




http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mosque3.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mosque4.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mosque5.jpg


Photos courtesy of Panoramio/ramaDan

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 01:19 PM
Mosque of Puebla de Don Fadrique (Granada, Andalusia Community, SPA)


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mosque6.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mosque7.jpg

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 01:59 PM
Mosque of Granada City (Andalusia Community, SPA)



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mgranada2.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mgranada4.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mgranada5.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mgranada3.jpg




Photos courtesy of

Webislam.com
Sir Cam

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Mosque of Torre Pacheco (Murcia Community, SPA)



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mclemencia3.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mclemencia5.jpg

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 02:36 PM
Mosque of Toledo (Castilla-La Mancha Community, SPA)



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo1.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo4.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo5.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo6.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo2.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo3.jpg http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mtoledo8.jpg

Alonzo-ny
January 6th, 2010, 02:39 PM
I move the thread and now we get pictures of mosques.

*tears hair out*

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 03:02 PM
Mosques of Ceuta (SPA)



http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mceuta1.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mceuta2.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mceuta3.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mceuta4.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mceuta5.jpg


http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab92/lunarossa_sanpete/mceuta6.jpg



Photos courtesy webislam.com

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 03:21 PM
I move the thread and now we get pictures of mosques.

*tears hair out*

I'm just uploading some photos of dozens of mosques in southern Spain. My intention is to explain that they are authentic buildings, many moderns, who are scattered throughout the country's geography. Many people think that there are no mosques with minarets in the European Union. Many of these minarets are larger than those of the Catholic churches.

Don't worry. No more pics. The next images in Religious Architecture: it time to come back to this thread... there are new fantastics projects all over the world !!!. I'm a slave of WNY-F.;)

Ninjahedge
January 6th, 2010, 06:09 PM
Jumping back....

Just like concerts, isn't building a stadium like venue for religion a little.....cold? Distant? Impersonal?

I know we are a pack animal, but having to crowd in with a bunch of people to hear religion over loudspeakers is a bit impersonal and kind of misses the point.

i think the single guy bowing down to prayer has more significance, at least in observance if not in actual cosmic importance, than seeing how big a church you can build and if you can fill it.

That strikes more of politics than devine observance.

What's next? A tower to Heaven?

Dr.T
January 6th, 2010, 08:58 PM
Jumping back....

Just like concerts, isn't building a stadium like venue for religion a little.....cold? Distant? Impersonal?

I know we are a pack animal, but having to crowd in with a bunch of people to hear religion over loudspeakers is a bit impersonal and kind of misses the point.

i think the single guy bowing down to prayer has more significance, at least in observance if not in actual cosmic importance, than seeing how big a church you can build and if you can fill it.

That strikes more of politics than devine observance.

What's next? A tower to Heaven?


Maybe a tower to Hell... designed by Devil !,... its a great architect, one of the best of History, he learned his job in the Heaven.

The Hell is the same for all religions, but the Heaven... you know they say: is of diferent colors for each religion. I dream in colors,... and you?

Fabrizio
January 7th, 2010, 03:31 AM
Danes Study Immigrants After Cartoonist Attack

Johann Spanner for The New York Times

By SARAH LYALL
Published: January 6, 2010

COPENHAGEN — As part of the prolonged national headache caused by a Danish newspaper’s decision to publish 12 caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad in 2005, last weekend’s attack on one of the cartoonists responsible had a certain awful inevitability about it.

Once again, the motivation was fury, still fresh after all this time, over the dissemination of the cartoons. And once again, the circumstances — in this case, the news that the person accused of the attack was a Muslim immigrant suspected of having links to terrorists — has led Danes into an uneasy examination of their relationship to their Muslim population.

In a country that already has one of the strictest immigration policies in Western Europe, the attack has also spurred politicians from across the political spectrum to demand ever more stringent rules about who should be allowed to live here. “I’m sorry to say, but it’s déjà vu — every time we experience an episode, then in 10 minutes we have them saying we have to have a new law,” said Naser Khader, a member of Parliament and the spokesman on foreign affairs and immigration for the Conservative People’s Party. He was speaking of the increasingly powerful Danish People’s Party, whose votes the government relies on to pass legislation and whose populist, anti-immigrant rhetoric has informed and inflamed debate in recent years.

After the attack, the People’s Party leader, Pia Kjaersgaard, said that it should be easier to deport Danes linked to terrorists. “It must be crystal clear to everyone in this country that we cannot accept having Islamists who associate with terror being more or less tolerated in this country,” she said.

Mr. Khader is just as hostile toward Islamists as anyone in Danish politics; he recently proposed banning burqas. But he said the latest comments had gone too far. “You have to be responsible when such incidents happen, and not let emotions take over,” he said.

New details about the suspect in the attack on the cartoonist, 74-year-old Kurt Westergaard, have increased complaints that the security service has been lax in monitoring people suspected of being terrorist sympathizers. The attack took place late last Friday when Mr. Westergaard was threatened in his townhouse in Aarhus, Denmark’s second largest city, by a man carrying a knife and an ax. Mr. Westergaard has been a focus of Muslim ire since drawing perhaps the most provocative of the 12 cartoons, showing Muhammad wearing a turban shaped like a bomb. He fled into a locked safe room and summoned the police with a panic button.

The suspected assailant, 28-year-old Muhudiin Mohamed Geele, was charged with two counts of attempted homicide, on Mr. Westergaard and on a police officer, and has pleaded not guilty. Mr. Geele arrived in Denmark in 1995, a refugee from the civil war in Somalia, the authorities said, and the next year was granted indefinite leave to remain. He lived in the city of Aalborg and, as a boy, was a role model for others in a youth club there, said Nuuradiin Hussein, who worked at the club.

“He was one of my favorite boys at the club,” said Mr. Hussein, who is now a social worker. “Most of the boys his age wanted to talk about girls and football, but he wanted to talk about the future and about getting an education.” Mr. Geele married and had three children, and at some point, according to the Danish Security and Intelligence Service, known as PET, developed ties to the Shabab, a Somali terrorism organization, and to Al Qaeda in East Africa. He also began making frequent trips abroad. Last summer, he was detained by the authorities in Nairobi, Kenya. The proximate cause was that he had lost his passport, but intelligence officials said he also was believed to have connections to suspects in a plot to blow up several buildings, including a hotel where Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was staying.

Nicholas Kamwende, head of Kenya’s antiterrorism police, said that the Kenyan authorities verbally shared “intelligence information” about him with the Danish Embassy. “We told them, ‘He is a dangerous man,’ but their reaction was negative,” Mr. Kamwende said in an interview.

In an interview with the newspaper Jyllands-Posten, Mr. Geele’s now ex-wife said that PET had tried to recruit him in 2006. “The police wanted him as an informant,” she told the newspaper, “and he became sad and more and more introverted. The police thought that he had participated in combat actions in Somalia against Ethiopian forces, and that he traveled back and forth to take part in war. But he had only been in Somalia in 2005 to visit the family.”

Officials declined to say whether the agency had indeed made overtures to Mr. Geele, but said that it was normal for PET to conduct “interviews with individuals that may be of interest to the service.” And Jakob Scharf, the director general, said that there had been no evidence that might have been “deemed sufficient grounds for arresting, prosecuting or expelling” him, despite his suspected terrorism links. More recently, Mr. Geele had been living in an apartment in a down-at-heel housing project of concrete buildings typical of an immigrant neighborhood, about seven miles from central Copenhagen. Residents said that Mr. Geele had been renting a room in an apartment owned by an Egyptian taxi driver and that he was known for his religious convictions — one neighbor said he had been asked several times to turn down music and recordings of the Koran — and also for being, at least at first, aloof and unfriendly. After the arrest, the police spent more than eight hours searching the apartment, neighbors said.

What the attack on Mr. Westergaard shows perhaps more than anything is how the publication of the cartoons has irrevocably changed Denmark’s place in world affairs. The damage was compounded in 2008, when in response to a separate plot to kill Mr. Westergaard, all of Denmark’s major newspapers reprinted the cartoons. It was then that Osama bin Laden denounced the cartoons as part of “a crusade” against Islam, and other Qaeda officials called on Muslims to make Denmark a target of their fury. That June, a suicide bomber in Islamabad, Pakistan, killed eight people at the Danish Embassy.

In the latest manifestation of Denmark’s troubles, the Sudanese government on Tuesday publicly denounced “The Revenge,” a movie about the Sudanese war by the Danish filmmaker Susanne Bier. The government compared the film — which has not yet been screened, and which is due to be released this summer — to the cartoons. Each new incident forces the more extreme circles of both the anti-immigrant and Islamist groups to become more deeply entrenched in their positions, said Ole Waever, a professor of international relations at the University of Copenhagen. Meanwhile, as the rhetoric grows ever more strident, he said, Denmark’s sense of itself is being sorely tested. “There’s a strange dialectic in the reaction,” Mr. Waever said in an interview. “There is an identity crisis where we can no longer recognize ourselves. This view of ourselves as a liberal, relaxed society no longer fits the reality.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/world/europe/07denmark.html?ref=global-home

Fabrizio
January 8th, 2010, 09:26 AM
Churches Attacked in Malaysian ‘Allah’ Dispute

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Three Christian churches were attacked with firebombs Friday as tensions rose in a dispute over whether Christians could use the word “Allah” in this largely Muslim nation.

Later in the day, small crowds rallied outside two major mosques in the capital, in a growing protest over a court ruling that overturned a government ban on the use of “Allah” by Roman Catholics as a translation for God.

Complete article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/world/asia/09malaysia.html?ref=global-home

-----------

Attack at a Church in Egypt Kills 7

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 6, 2010
CAIRO (AP) — Three men in a car sprayed automatic gunfire into a crowd of churchgoers on Wednesday in the southern Egyptian town of Nag Hammadi, killing at least seven people as they left a midnight Mass for Coptic Christmas, security officials and the church bishop said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/world/middleeast/07egypt.html?ref=middleeast

-----------

Iran Accuses Five of Warring Against God

By NAZILA FATHI
Published: January 7, 2010
At least five protesters arrested in Iran last week during antigovernment demonstrations will be tried on charges of warring against God, which carries an automatic death sentence if they are found guilty, Iran’s judiciary said Thursday.

Complete article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/world/middleeast/08iran.html?ref=middleeast

lofter1
January 8th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Churches Attacked in Malaysian ‘Allah’ Dispute

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Three Christian churches were attacked with firebombs Friday as tensions rose in a dispute over whether Christians could use the word “Allah” in this largely Muslim nation.



Is faith this precarious?




The word has been widely used as a translation for the word “God” in Malay-language texts and services, particularly among Christian indigenous tribes in the remote states of Sabah and Sarawak.

It is also the common word used to describe the Christian God in Arabic-speaking countries like Egypt and Syria and in Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim-majority nation, whose language is a variant of the Malay language.

During the current dispute, many Muslims here have argued that the use of the word by other religions could confuse believers and tempt them to convert from Islam.

ablarc
January 8th, 2010, 12:21 PM
An insecure God.

lofter1
January 8th, 2010, 12:41 PM
Angry and insecure. Not the best mix.

Fabrizio
January 12th, 2010, 10:39 AM
Britain Moves to Ban Controversial Islamic Group

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 12, 2010

LONDON (AP) -- Britain's government said Tuesday it will ban an Islamist group whose proposed protest march through a town known for honoring British soldiers killed in Afghanistan drew national outrage.

The group, Islam4UK, will be banned starting Thursday, said Home Secretary Alan Johnson. The move will allow authorities to arrest people who meet in the group's name and seize its assets.

Islam4UK reacted with outrage. Omar Bakri Mohamed, a Lebanon-based cleric who serves as the group's spiritual leader, claimed that the ban could push some of his members to violence.

The government's decision comes after Islam4UK drew national outrage by proposing a protest march at Wootton Bassett, 75 miles (120 kilometers) west of London. The small market town is well-known in Britain for its quiet repatriation ceremonies for British soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

The town's residents join the families of the dead and war veterans to line the streets and watch servicemen's bodies being driven through from a nearby air base.

Anjem Choudary, Bakri's U.K.-based colleague, threatened to bring 500 Islamists through the streets of Wootton Basset to highlight Afghan civilian deaths at the hands of NATO-led forces. After

The lawmakers called the move a distasteful publicity stunt and many called for Choudary's group to be outlawed.

Bakri said that the ban was ''the gravest mistake,'' describing his group was peaceful think-tank whose younger members would be pushed toward violence if it were driven underground.

In a telephone interview from Tripoli, Lebanon, Bakri claimed that he was lobbying for a peaceful reaction to the ban.

''We (were) never involved with any violence, yet,'' he said.

Bakri's group argues that, as Muslims, they're not bound by British law and has expressed support for bin Laden and al-Qaida. In its previous incarnation as al-Muhajiroun, the group was linked to several terror suspects and was accused of recruiting British Muslims to fight in Afghanistan and Chechnya. Bakri has acknowledged that some of al-Muhajiroun members have engaged in militant attacks but says the group can't be held responsible for their actions.

Bakri, who was deported from Britain in 2005, added that, whatever happened, his followers could regroup under a different name.

''Tomorrow we can call ourselves whatever we think is suitable for us,'' he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/12/world/AP-EU-Britain-Islamist-Group.html?ref=global-home

ablarc
January 12th, 2010, 11:43 AM
Omar Bakri Mohamed, a Lebanon-based cleric who serves as the group's spiritual leader, claimed that the ban could push some of his members to violence.
Islam is a peaceful religion.

ablarc
January 12th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Bakri's group argues that, as Muslims, they're not bound by British law and has expressed support for bin Laden and al-Qaida. In its previous incarnation as al-Muhajiroun, the group was linked to several terror suspects and was accused of recruiting British Muslims to fight in Afghanistan and Chechnya. Bakri has acknowledged that some of al-Muhajiroun members have engaged in militant attacks but says the group can't be held responsible for their actions.
When Allah's in charge, you can't be held responsible for your actions.

British law: pshaw!

ablarc
January 12th, 2010, 12:04 PM
I just watched Inglorious Basterds.

Did anyone on the Allied side inquire about the depth of a German soldier's commitment to Nazism? If they had, and if they had received a reassuring answer, would the Basterds have put aside their weapons and extended an olive branch?

All those uniformed Nazis ... who knows how many of them were serious about their goals?

Maybe there should be battlefield commissions to inquire how seriously committed these folks are to their rhetoric. If the commission's conclusion had been, "they're just kidding," should we have laid off?

Fabrizio
January 25th, 2010, 04:41 PM
IMHO a good first step:

French Call For Veil Ban In Public Buildings
ELAINE GANLEY | 01/25/10 03:05 PM |

PARIS — A parliamentary panel will recommend on Tuesday that France ban face-covering Muslim veils in public locations such as hospitals and schools, but not in private buildings or on the street, the group's president said. The decision appeared to indicate that the 32-member, multiparty panel had heeded warnings that a full ban of the all-encompassing veils would be unfair, possibly unconstitutional, and could even cause trouble in a country where Islam is the second largest religion. The approximately 170-page report, to be released Tuesday, culminates a six-month inquiry into why a tiny minority of Muslim women wear such veils and the implications for France.

The work began after President Nicolas Sarkozy announced in June that such garb "is not welcome" on French territory. However, Sarkozy has since pulled back from committing himself to a full ban. Such dress is considered by many as a gateway to extremism. However, it also is widely seen as an insult to gender equality and an offense to France's profoundly secular foundations.

Parliament will not be required to act on Tuesday's recommendation. And given the deep divisions within the panel – its 12 Socialist members refused to vote in a dispute with the governing right – the recommendation for a partial ban on the face-covering veils may only result in a nonbinding government resolution. The panel's mission, and a separate national identity debate on immigration, already have left some of France's Muslims feeling discriminated against, said Mohammed Moussaoui, who heads an umbrella group of various Muslim organizations.

A 2004 law already bans Muslim headscarves in classrooms. Now Muslim religious leaders, along with many experts, warn that a "general and absolute" law banning face-covering attire in the streets would stigmatize all Muslims and have other dire consequences, even driving some to extremism. They were joined last week by Roman Catholic and Jewish leaders who said they consider such a drastic step unnecessary. Monsignor Andre Vingt-Trois said he is not against anti-veil rules in "precise places," but doesn't want to see the state become involved with how people dress. "Shall we choose between the full-body veil and nude women in ads on top of a four-wheel drive?" he said last week.

France has the largest Muslim population in western Europe, estimated at some 5 million, but only several thousand Muslim women at best are thought to wear such veils, usually a "niqab" pinned across the face to cover all but the eyes. Worn with a long, dark robe, such clothing is customarily associated with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. "It is perhaps a marginal problem, but it is the visible part of the iceberg," lawmaker Andre Gerin, president of the parliamentary panel, said in an interview. "Behind the iceberg is a black tide of ... fundamentalism." He denounced those he called "gurus" or "French Taliban" who, he claimed, promote a radical brand of Islam that forces women, and young girls, to hide themselves.

Gerin, the panel's only Communist, said Tuesday's report will recommend that veils be banned in public services such as hospitals and schools, but not in private buildings or on the street. Critics of a street ban of the veils raised concern about the constitutionality of outlawing such dress. "I don't think an ideology should be fought through constraining measures but through ideas," Moussaoui, the Muslim leader, said in an interview. "It's very difficult to talk about the liberation of women through a law that constrains."

A poll by the IPSOS firm published in this week's newsweekly Le Point suggests that a majority of French disagree – with 57 percent of the 960 adults questioned favoring a total ban on the face-covering veil and 37 percent opposing one. Gerin, who wants one, stressed the need to move "progressively" toward a general law banning the attire in the streets and to work "hand in hand" with Muslim leaders, associations and others who might hold sway among Muslims.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/25/french-call-for-veil-ban_n_435226.html

Alonzo-ny
January 25th, 2010, 05:36 PM
On the street and in their homes people should be able to wear whatever they want. In public buildings they shouldn't be treated different to someone in a balaclava or a motorcycle helmet for example.

Fabrizio
January 25th, 2010, 05:55 PM
Agreed, although I do feel the ban should extend to the street: people should dress as they please except for covering up the face.

ablarc
January 25th, 2010, 06:08 PM
Agreed, although I do feel the ban should extend to the street: people should dress as they please except for covering up the face.
Common sense.

Ninjahedge
January 26th, 2010, 07:59 AM
If the face is used to identify someone in modern society, then it should be exposed.

The problem is, any restrictions to people not following it will not help the situation. Denying Muslim women Drivers Licenses because they do not expose their faces? I am sure that will help them gain more independence and rights.....

Alonzo-ny
January 26th, 2010, 08:02 AM
What is the point of a drivers licence if you can't see their face in the picture? You wouldn't accept a drivers licence with someone wearing a balaclava would you? They need to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Fabrizio
January 26th, 2010, 10:14 AM
An update on yesterday's story. It will be interesting to see if other European countries follow:

French Panel Advises Steps to Ban Muslim Veil

By MATTHEW SALTMARSH
Published: January 26, 2010

PARIS — A French parliamentary panel recommended on Tuesday moves to curb the wearing of Muslim veils in certain public facilities and suggested that lawmakers should pass a resolution condemning the garments. But it stopped short of pressing for a total ban. A report from the panel said that lawmakers were unable to unanimously agree to an outright ban “at this stage,” even though many favored one. The report, however, called for legislation to ban the covering of the face in public services. Presenting the report, members of the panel suggested that this could include hospitals, public transport, schools, post offices and even banks — areas where identification is important.

Instead of recommending a total ban of the veil, the report from the 32-member panel, which crossed party lines, said the Council of State, a body which provides the executive with legal advice and acts as a court of last resort, should examine whether legislation should be introduced. Lionnel Luca, a lawmaker from the governing center-right party and a member of the panel, said the report was a “missed opportunity.” “We’ll study the issue, we’ll have a resolution — that’s all great,” he said after the release of the 280-page document. “But what we really need is a clear text that outlaws the burqa.” “We need to go further and we need the political will. At the moment I don’t see that,” he said.

The opposition Socialist Party boycotted the panel’s vote on the report because the issue had become embroiled in a simultaneous debate on national identity initiated by President Nicolas Sarkozy. Mr. Luca said only 14 members of the commission voted — eight for and six against. The report was the culmination of an inquiry into the wearing of all-enveloping burqas, a full-length garment with a grill over the eyes, that began after President Sarkozy said in June that the burqa was “not welcome” on French territory. Mr. Sarkozy called for a resolution by lawmakers condemning veils, to be followed by a debate on legislation.

The panel’s findings were also directed at the niqab, which leaves the eyes uncovered. Critics of the veils have described them as a tool of extremism, a hindrance to women’s rights and an affront to France’s cherished secularity. But the debate raised concerns about the constitutionality of state mandates on dress and the possibility of aggravating tensions among France’s Muslims, many of whom feel alienated and excluded from social and economic progress.

“I don’t think an ideology should be fought through constraining measures but through ideas,” Mohammed Moussaoui, the head of a national coalition of Muslim organizations, told The Associated Press on Monday. “It’s very difficult to talk about the liberation of women through a law that constrains.” He said, however, that it was legitimate to ask women to remove their veils in all “public services” like post offices and schools “where identification is necessary.”

In 2004, the government banned head scarves and other signs of religious affiliation in public schools in France. France has largest Muslim population in Western Europe — the majority with roots in North Africa — estimated at between five and six million. But fewer than 2,000 women wear the full veil in France, according to the Interior Ministry. France would become the first European country to adopt legislation on restricting the full veil.

The center-right Danish prime minister, Lars Loekke Rasmussen, said last week that his government was also considering restricting the burqa and niqab. And in November, Swiss voters supported a referendum to ban the building of minarets on mosques. The leader of Mr. Sarkozy’s rightist grouping in Parliament, Jean-Francois Copé, has already presented a draft bill that would make it illegal, for reasons of security, for anyone to cover their faces in public. Violators would face fines, according to the draft, which is not due to be debated until after regional elections in March.

Ninjahedge
January 26th, 2010, 10:58 AM
What is the point of a drivers licence if you can't see their face in the picture? You wouldn't accept a drivers licence with someone wearing a balaclava would you? They need to follow the same rules as everyone else.

I agree, but my point was, denying them licenses will only hurt their own freedom and chances at liberation.

I doubt that the Muslim culture will allow women to show their faces just so they can drive. So the forbidding of one because of the other will not make the other go away, it will just keep women in servitude....

Fabrizio
January 26th, 2010, 11:35 AM
^ So you are saying that Muslim culture keeps women in servitude.

Alonzo-ny
January 26th, 2010, 11:56 AM
I agree, but my point was, denying them licenses will only hurt their own freedom and chances at liberation.



There is no alternative. Allowing them to drive without licences is unacceptable and issuing licences without a photo is unacceptable.

In regards to public buildings etc I am with the French on this. They need to assimilate if they want to live in the society they have chosen.

Ninjahedge
January 26th, 2010, 12:56 PM
Here's the thing. There is never "no solution", but that does not mean the viable one is easy to find. Just saying "No or else" is not the best way to go about it.

How can you get it to be more voluntary w/o hurting womens rights?

BTW, could you imagine the uproar if the US (NYC in particular) forbid black hats and forelocks?

Fabrizio
January 26th, 2010, 01:06 PM
great analogy

Alonzo-ny
January 26th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Here's the thing. There is never "no solution", but that does not mean the viable one is easy to find. Just saying "No or else" is not the best way to go about it.

How can you get it to be more voluntary w/o hurting womens rights?

BTW, could you imagine the uproar if the US (NYC in particular) forbid black hats and forelocks?

As far as driving licences are concerned there is no other way, in my opinion. If you don't show your face in your ID you aren't getting one and therfore you can't drive.

I'd love to get them to be more voluntary however no-one should get special treatment.

Ninjahedge
January 26th, 2010, 01:56 PM
So, how do you make a law that puts pressure on the community to release women from that particular bondage?

Requiring it on things that men see as women's responsibility?

Maybe we have to look attheir culture and see where women go and what they have to do. Force a man to do a woman's work and they will think twice about forcing them to cover up.

Fabrizio
January 26th, 2010, 02:06 PM
yes, that should do it.

Ninjahedge
January 27th, 2010, 07:50 AM
What? I have to feed the kids? I have to etc etc etc.......?

BTW Fab, I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, so B.O.D..... yes, it might do it. But simply forbidding licenses will not. I agree that they should be forced to show face for ID, but how do you make it so that is no longer a concern in the first place?

Fabrizio
January 27th, 2010, 08:23 AM
Yes, it just might do it with these men... appealing to their sensitive side, their understanding nature...

Perhaps encounter sessions where they can do role-playing... ironing... running the vacuum.

Let them see what it's like trying to get a nice roast on the table while wearing a friggin' burqa.

MidtownGuy
January 27th, 2010, 09:12 AM
guys, just as an aside, the burqa is not worn in the home.

Ninjahedge
January 27th, 2010, 10:59 AM
Fab, I am saying, if the guy does not want to do the tasks he considers beneath him, a WOMANS tasks, they might think differently about forcing them to wear something that will not allow them to conduct buisness in public.


MTG, I am not talking specifically about in-the-home stuff, but what about food shopping? What about picking up the kids from school? Will they allow a kid to be picked up by someone refusing to let themselves be ID'd? Is there a way to passively push the choice back on their shoulders to encourage rather than force it?

And Fab, c'mahn. :rolleyes:

Fabrizio
January 27th, 2010, 11:52 AM
We have to get these Muslim guys to see what it's like trying to parallel park in a burqa.

Yes, I think once they understand that, they might think differently about forcing their women to wear them.

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