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Fabrizio
January 19th, 2010, 05:41 PM
This is the most disgusting crazy-a$$ed story.

Bible quotes on US military weapons used in Iraq and Afganistan. This arrogant self-serving behavior only puts the entire world in further danger.

Really guys... do watch this ABC Nightline report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px2-jgYTQFQ

OmegaNYC
January 19th, 2010, 06:36 PM
What is even spooker is what the guy who uploaded this video put in the discription: "The way I feel about this is this. The USA was founded on Godly ways and thoughts. I have no problem with this. In fact I love that the verses from The Bible/ Word of God are on the weapons we use.."

Yikes! As someone who is considering a military career, I shutter at the thought there are miliary members who would put bible quotes on weapons.

Fabrizio
January 19th, 2010, 06:51 PM
If this were the era of Vietnam, this would have been a huge story, there would have been marching in the streets over this... a song by Joni Mitchell...a cover story in LIFE magazine...

Today the big story is Conan and Leno.

--

Ninjahedge
January 19th, 2010, 09:19 PM
Let them. So long as we can keep a bit of distance, the men and women that WANT to start a religious war should suffer for their ignorance.

OTOH, these things rarely end with the ignorant killing the ignorant. The innocent becomes the target. It is always easier to kill the ones WITHOUT guns in the name of the "God" you are fighting for than to shoot only at the ones that are shooting at you.

Fabrizio
January 20th, 2010, 03:11 AM
Yikes! As someone who is considering a military career, I shutter at the thought there are miliary members who would put bible quotes on weapons.

Note that the main story in the report is not about military members doing this ( I imagine that's their business), but about the company that supplies the weapons to the US military (under a 600 million dollar contract).

That the US is not removing the codes (and the company reprimanded) is a stamp of approval.

User Name
January 20th, 2010, 06:40 AM
iirc the "quoted verses" are referencing bringing light to the world. Seeing as the sights are the "glow in the dark type" it makes sense.

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2010, 07:54 AM
You NEVER quote the bible when coming into a potential religious holy war. You keep it clinical.



That the US is not removing the codes (and the company reprimanded) is a stamp of approval.

Yep. Like it would have taken so much effort to get a supply seargent to assign a private with a hammer and a screwdriver to take care of all of this.

But, no-one gave him the order, so he just did what he was told and used what he was given.


Honestly, I think the people who care about this most are not the ones using them (on both sides). It is unfair to put these military people at the point of someones religious beliefs. Let that person risk his own well being to preach his faith, not the lives of others.

dtolman
January 20th, 2010, 09:30 AM
Its a couple of meaningless letters and numbers. Its not a quote...

If someone wants to put the serial number J:3.14 on the end of something, who cares?

ablarc
January 20th, 2010, 09:49 AM
And after all, who cares about cartoons of Mohamed?

Chances are, however, that the same people will care about both.

Fabrizio
January 20th, 2010, 09:53 AM
Its a couple of meaningless letters and numbers. Its not a quote...

If someone wants to put the serial number J:3.14 on the end of something, who cares?

How can you say that they are meaningless?

These are recognized abbreviations for bible quotes. Write in JN8:12 (as an example):

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A12&version=NIV

dtolman
January 20th, 2010, 10:20 AM
They are meaningless, because its not a bible quote. Its a couple of letters and numbers. Its not like they wrote "In God we Trust" on it. Like on all the money in the pockets of the people wielding the gun.

As for the cartoon - that is an explicit no-no for everyone according to their religion. This is just a bunch of Christian bullshit. World of difference.

Honestly - after getting a couple of bullets pumped into you, who the **** cares that the gunsight had JN8:12 on it?

At most, I say tell the manufacturer to cut it out and leave the christian "easter eggs" off their serial numbers in future versions.

Fabrizio
January 20th, 2010, 10:25 AM
dtolman: this is not about you and what you think.

The codes are also "meaningless" to me as well.... but I've got enough sense to realize that it's not about me.

See ablarc's post above.

The US military should not be throwing fuel on the fire by having Bible codes stamped onto their weaponry.

Do you understand anything about the religious/historical aspects of this war?

--

dtolman
January 20th, 2010, 10:46 AM
The US military should not be throwing fuel on the fire by having Bible codes stamped onto their weaponry.

Do you understand anything about the religious/historical aspects of this war?
--

Yes. Enough to realize that this is the equivalent of throwing a couple of spent matches into a bonfire.

Its just a minor irritant in a long line of perceived insults. This is a nothing on top of a few active wars, US troops on the "holy" arabian peninsula, the occupations of Iraq/Afghanistan, support of Israel, proselytizing aid organizations, loose western morals, continued perceived insults to Islam, etc etc,etc.

At this point, the Islamic militants don't care. Will they throw it in a propaganda video? Maybe (thanks Western media for the helping hand). But in the greater scheme of things, they have had enough self-justification to do whatever they feel like for over a decade now.

This won't add any new recruits. And maybe it'll fire up our guys over there, knowing every bullet they shoot is a big F-U. If thats the case, leave it in as a moral builder.

lofter1
January 20th, 2010, 11:44 AM
... a long line of perceived insults.

Why add any fuel to the fire?

We should get clear on the mission and execute it.

That would be a good thing after 8-1/2 years.

Ninjahedge
January 20th, 2010, 01:05 PM
They are meaningless, because its not a bible quote. Its a couple of letters and numbers. Its not like they wrote "In God we Trust" on it. Like on all the money in the pockets of the people wielding the gun.

So a swastika is meaningless too? (Sorry about the Nazi reference....)

Symbols mean just that. If this was never found out, or known by anyone, then it would be fine. A symbol has no meaning when no-one knows what it means.

But this wasn't something top secret. It just wasn't told to a lot of people, and it got out.

And as such, it is an UNNECESSARY HAZARD to our men and women in the field. We do not need to give the enemy any more motivation for recruitment.


As for the cartoon - that is an explicit no-no for everyone according to their religion. This is just a bunch of Christian bullshit. World of difference.

Different, yes. World? Not really. Not when you are talking about cause and effect. What some feel is harmless and innocuous to others is a cause to KILL. Is that right? No.

But come on, we do not need another Crusade.


Honestly - after getting a couple of bullets pumped into you, who the **** cares that the gunsight had JN8:12 on it?

Not the point.


At most, I say tell the manufacturer to cut it out and leave the christian "easter eggs" off their serial numbers in future versions.

I say now that it is known, make a global refutement and denouncement and remove the labels. they should also make a token penalty to the manufacturer to show we do not approve of that kind of religious proclaimation in order to strengthen our image as a non-religious world force.

It is hard to play the good guys when one of your men is caught beating a puppy.
Exaggerated analogy, I know. But the import is just the same.

dtolman
January 20th, 2010, 03:52 PM
So a swastika is meaningless too? (Sorry about the Nazi reference....)

Symbols mean just that. If this was never found out, or known by anyone, then it would be fine. A symbol has no meaning when no-one knows what it means.

But this wasn't something top secret. It just wasn't told to a lot of people, and it got out.

And as such, it is an UNNECESSARY HAZARD to our men and women in the field. We do not need to give the enemy any more motivation for recruitment.


The Swastika would be meaningless to a blind person though - being told its bad isn't the same as understanding its full import. I think that would be a better analogy here.

All the prospective recruit is going to know is that the Americans did a bad thing, without understanding what it was exactly. I just don't see this as a big recruitment tool without dumbing it down so much, that its a waste of time for recruitment.

First they have to explain that there are letters printed on the gun that reference the New Testament. Then they have to explain that its bad, but not letting them know the contents exactly, since quoting it would be like proselytizing a heretical religion. Then they have to say the quote is bad, but do it without disparaging Jesus, who would be the #2 prophet in Islam.

They won't do all that. They'll just say the evil Americans are here to spread infidel ideas and crush Islam. Just like they did before this came out.

Quite frankly, if someone gets killed over this, I'll blame the western media more for spreading this Jesus gun meme, than some idiot Christian gun-sight manufacturer.

Public denouncements are just going to keep this going. Better to tell the manufacturer to cut it out, quietly, and stop referring to it publicly. The worst thing the government can do is give more fuel to the fire.

lofter1
January 20th, 2010, 08:45 PM
if someone gets killed over this, I'll blame the western media ...


Can't have it both ways. I though you wrote that the other side doesn't really care about this specifically and will be after us no matter what -- and therefore, in the grand scheme of things, the inscriptions make no difference.

If publication doesn't increase their vengeance then what's the problem with telling the story?

dtolman
January 21st, 2010, 07:28 AM
Oh I have no problem telling the actual story... my problem is that ABC reported it as Jesus rifles somehow...

ablarc
January 21st, 2010, 08:19 AM
Even worse might have been Mohamed rifles with Koran verses.

During the Vietnam War, Sister Corita, an artist-nun, was commissioned to paint colorful abstractions on a vast gas tank flanking the main highway into Boston. In plain sight within the abstraction, she concealed an accurate profile of Ho Chi Minh, complete with wispy beard. Anyone who knew it was there could easily find it. It is there to this day.

Activism doing its part for peace and justice?

Back then, some folks though it was treason.

Ninjahedge
January 21st, 2010, 08:21 AM
dtol, it will be used as further example of the Evil West.

They will call it out, and picking up a gun off a dead soldier and showing it to these people will convince them of evil even if they do not fully understand it.

It is human nature. Symbolism.

And to continue the analogy, even a blind man would know what a swastika was if they could feel it. the key is to give sight to the people who are blind to this fact.

When they "see" this transgression, it will just help with a solid validation.

It is not easy to claim neutrality in a political forum (which is eventually the only way this will be resolved) when you are printing bible references on your weapons.....

dtolman
January 21st, 2010, 09:22 AM
Ninjahedge,
I agree that these "codes" shouldn't be on the weapons. I just disagree about the practical import. It'll be just another line of propaganda, when their are so many of them.

Think about your scenario. Taking guns off dead Americans to squint at the few extra letters or numbers on the end of a serial number?

Think they'll be impressed with that, when chances are the dead soldier has money stamped with God on it, a cross around his neck, a religious tattoo on his body, or a bible in his pocket?

They already think these guys are crusaders.

The funny thing is that we've been carrying these things around in conflict zones for years - decades. Even on the holy Arabian peninsula. They've been shooting at us looking down the same gun sights too. Think the Taliban will start throwing them away, now that they know?

Fabrizio
January 21st, 2010, 09:31 AM
"Think they'll be impressed with that, when chances are the dead soldier has money stamped with God on it, a cross around his neck, a religious tattoo on his body, or a bible in his pocket?"

Oh c'mon.... the weapons have been issued to the soldiers by the US government.

----

"They already think these guys are crusaders. "

^ Not all, no.

And that is the real issue. The real issue here is factions of the populace not already convinced.

This kind of clowning around only gets in the way of the good work people are doing there. Remember that besides the war and the Americans there are International peacekeeping troops there as well. This is just bad, bad behavior by the Americans.

--

Ninjahedge
January 21st, 2010, 09:59 AM
Dtol, now that they know, they will be angrier. They will also do what I suggested, remove the codes from the guns.

If your enemy is fighting you on what they call religious grounds, it is NOT a wise idea to start singing hymns on the battleground.