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bigchet
May 9th, 2010, 12:58 PM
Mosque going up in NYC building damaged on 9/11 - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/05/06/mosque_going_up_in_nyc_building_damaged_on_911?mod e=PF)

BrooklynRider
May 10th, 2010, 10:55 PM
This is the articale referemced by bigchet (above)

Mosque going up in NYC building damaged on 9/11

By Cristian Salazar, Associated Press Writer | May 6, 2010

NEW YORK --In a building damaged by debris from the Sept. 11 airliners that brought down the World Trade Center and soon to become a 13-story mosque, some see the bridging of a cultural divide and an opportunity to serve a burgeoning, peaceful religious population. Others see a painful reminder of the religious extremism that killed their loved ones.

Two Muslim organizations have partnered to open the mosque and cultural center in lower Manhattan, saying the $100 million project will create a venue for mainstream Islam and a counterbalance to radicalism. It earned a key endorsement this week from influential community leaders.

But some 9/11 victims' families said they were angered that it would be built so close to where their relatives died.

"I don't like it," said Evelyn Pettigano, who lost a sister in the attacks, during a phone interview on Thursday. "I'm not prejudiced. ... It's too close to the area where our family members were murdered."

But the growing number of congregants at the only other nearby mosque, open only one day a week, created a need for an additional space for Muslim prayer in the neighborhood, said Daisy Khan, the executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and a board member of the Cordoba Initiative, the two organizations sponsoring the project.

The history associated with the building, a former Burlington Coat Factory store that closed after being damaged on 9/11, was a reason to pick it for the project, she said.

"We want to create a platform by which the voices of the mainstream and silent majority of Muslims will be amplified. A center of this scale and magnitude will do that," Khan said. "We feel it's an obligation as Muslims and Americans to be part of the rebuilding of downtown Manhattan."

The organizations publicly unveiled the preliminary plan for the project, known as the Cordoba House, on Wednesday at a meeting of the finance committee of the local community board, which is composed of influential stakeholders in lower Manhattan. While the agency has no authority over what can be developed at the site, their support is viewed as key to gaining acceptance from residents.

Edward "Ro" Sheffe, the chairman of the financial district committee for Community Board 1, said the 15 members passed a resolution of support for the project, though he emphasized that the board had no authority to approve or disapprove of a house of worship, per se. Indeed, he said the developers could do whatever they wanted with the building, which they own.

"They came to tell us what they had in mind and see what we felt about it," he said. "The understanding we came away with was that this was an ongoing dialogue."

The members' only concerns had to do with the aesthetics of the building, and whether it would fit with the surrounding architecture, he said. The overall feeling was one of goodwill because the financial district, a fast-growing residential area, lacks for amenities such as community centers.

"We very much need residential amenities for the people who live here," he said.

But the simple idea of a mosque so near ground zero angered those whose family members were killed by adherents to radical Islam.

"I think it's despicable, and I think it's atrocious that anyone would even consider allowing them to build a mosque near the World Trade Center," said Rosemary Cain, whose son, George Cain, a firefighter, died on Sept. 11.

Anita LaFond Korsonsky, a Livingston, N.J., woman who lost her sister, also said she had misgivings.

"I presume that these people aren't going to be gathering there to plan another attack," she said.

The Muslim organizations plan to announce the groundbreaking later this year, possibly to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the attacks, Khan said. It could take up to three years to build the Cordoba House; the groups currently have no funds for the project but plan to start raising money, she said.

A Friday prayer service has been held since September at the building, she said.

Marvin Bethea, a paramedic who survived the toxic collapse of the twin towers and suffers from a range of afflictions, including post-traumatic stress disorder and asthma, said he supports the mosque.

"Not all Muslims are terrorists," Bethea said. "Muslims died on 9/11, as well. This is a tremendous gesture to show that we're not all full of hatred and bigotry."
------
Associated Press writer Karen Matthews contributed to this report.
Eds: RECASTS lead to CORRECT that planned mosque is 13 stories sted current building. http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_story_end_icon.gif

BrooklynLove
May 11th, 2010, 06:47 AM
So many ignorant quotes in this article. Embarrassing.

Travis
May 12th, 2010, 06:34 PM
A red flag goes up in my mind whenever someone protests, "I'm not prejudiced!"

lofter1
May 20th, 2010, 01:46 PM
Mosque going up in NYC building damaged on 9/11


Tea Party Leader 'Apologizes' For Calling WTC Mosque a Monument to 'Monkey God' (http://dnainfo.com/20100520/financial-district-battery-park-city/tea-party-leader-apologizes-for-calling-wtc-mosque-monument-monkey-god)

DNA Info

MANHATTAN — A Tea Party leader who said on Wednesday in a blog rant against the proposed World Trade Center mosque that Muslims worshipped a "monkey god" has apologized — to Hindus.

Mark Williams, a conservative radio host, self-proclaimed "founding Tea Party Patriot" and chairman of the Tea Party Express, wrote on his blog that the 13-story mosque slated for the former Burlington Coat Factory building near Ground Zero was a monument "for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god." ...

londonlawyer
May 20th, 2010, 02:01 PM
While I fully support a mosque being located there, I thought that it was going to be located within the beautiful building that's currently there. It would really suck to see it razed especially with all of the crap in the area that could be redeveloped, let alone all of the empty lots.

scumonkey
May 20th, 2010, 02:04 PM
Designation Could Derail Controversial WTC Mosque (http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/05/20/landmark_designation_could_derail_controversial_wt c_mosque.php)

http://ny.curbed.com/uploads/2010_5_45park.jpgThe 13-story mosque and Islamic center proposed for a site near ground zero that's making international headlines (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10127563.stm) and inspiring all sorts of absurd commentary (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/19/2010-05-19_tea_party_leader_mark_williams_says_muslims_wor ship_a_monkey_god_blasts_ground_z.html?r=ny_local&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fny_local+%28NY+Loca l%29) could possibly be derailed by that most powerful god of all: the Landmarks Preservation Commission. The Cordoba House would be built following the demolition of 45 Park Place, a shuttered Burlington Coat Factory store with a roof badly damaged in the 9/11 attack. The 152-year-old Palazzo-style building was once considered for landmark designation in 1989, and has been held under "calendared" status ever since, the Tribeca Trib (http://www.tribecatrib.com/news/2010/may/615_city-could-halt-mosque-community-centernear-world-trade-center-site.html) reports. Now, with the building facing the wrecking ball, the LPC plans on holding a public hearing all these years later. If 45 Park Place is granted landmark status (a long shot), that's going to add quite a hurdle for its glass-and-steel replacement (http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/05/06/community_board_committee_approves_mosque_near_wtc .php)—and likely land LPC its first-ever Fox News Channel coverage!
· City Could Halt Mosque, Community Center Plans Near WTC Site (http://www.tribecatrib.com/news/2010/may/615_city-could-halt-mosque-community-centernear-world-trade-center-site.html) [Trib Trib]
· 45 Park Place coverage (http://ny.curbed.com/tags/45-park-place) [Curbed]

londonlawyer
May 20th, 2010, 05:44 PM
I hope this building is landmarked. It's beautiful and needs to be restored.

BrooklynLove
May 20th, 2010, 07:37 PM
I'll go on the record here predicting that if this building gets landmarked, there will be cries of religious discrimination.

lofter1
May 20th, 2010, 07:57 PM
Has there been any real threat of an owner -- any owner -- demolishing the building up until this point?

Inaction by the LPC aside, the very fact that the building was "Calendared" puts it in a special category. That took lace 20+ years ago. Any buyer should have been aware of the potential for actual Landmark status and the limitations that come with it.

Seems that the Cordoba crew might have an argument with the broker and their lawyer, rather than with the LPC.

gundam00
May 20th, 2010, 09:24 PM
Putting a Mosque in a European Influenced Building is inappropriate. A building that is a testiment to Western Culture and civilization should not be turned into something that represents something radically different. I would have nothing against constructing a new building or using a modern building to house the mosque.

Derek2k3
May 20th, 2010, 11:24 PM
^The owner wants to tear it down and build this:
http://ny.curbed.com/uploads/cordobahouse_5_10.jpg

This is ridiculous. Why did the LPC wait until now? Why wait until the owner wasted money hiring architects and drawing up plans. This makes the process so much more difficult and leaves a greater chance that building will be torn down.

I love this building, and hope for its restoration every time I walk by.

ZippyTheChimp
May 22nd, 2010, 02:06 PM
Putting a Mosque in a European Influenced Building is inappropriate.It's not a mosque.


A building that is a testiment to Western Culture and civilization should not be turned into something that represents something radically different.So government denying religious freedom is part of Western Culture?


I would have nothing against constructing a new building or using a modern building to house the mosque.So you think a building carries more significance than the Constitution?

Pardon me, but this is a crock. It's exactly the ignorant intolerance that the 09/11 terrorists were all about.

lofter1
June 3rd, 2010, 01:35 AM
Mosque going up in NYC building damaged on 9/11


A gang of Tea Party folks + cohorts, all up in arms against the Cordoba House plan, are organizing a protest this Friday at noon on the sidewalk outside Zuccotti Park.

But it seems they don't have a permit to gather in the numbers they're hoping for ...

PRESERVE OUR FREEDOM, PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY;
SAY NO TO MOSQUE AT “GROUND ZERO” »

ATLAS SHRUG (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/free-citizens-denied-permit-to-protest-911-mega-mosque.html#comments)
May 28, 2010

FREE CITIZENS' PERMIT CANCELED TO PROTEST 911 MEGA MOSQUE

UPDATE: WE WILL PROTEST AT ZUCCOTTI PARK, NOT IN IT. WE WILL BE IN THE STREETS AND ON THE SIDEWALK ON JUNE 6TH AT NOON. FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY.

Look at this. Zuccotti Park gave us a permit and canceled it late yesterday. They are so inconsistent. They let the left protest anywhere, do anything, march everywhere. Cindy Sheehan and her band of America-hating freaks were never turned down. Code Pink their virulent anti-semitism and Bush-deranged mental patients are always accommodated. The 911 truth freaks protest on 911, every year. But the city dhimmis down when Islamic supremacists are involved. This will not stand. There must be a public outcry. Freedom of assembly is guaranteed under the Constitution.

Even the left wing clowns at the Times wrote today in a stupefying pro-mega mosque piece:


But they have a right to protest. It is guaranteed in the First Amendment, the same one that ensures freedom of religion, with no asterisk that says “*except for Islam.” It is the same amendment that allows a strip joint and a porno shop to exist a couple of blocks from hallowed ground.

***

Demonstrators Denied Permit for WTC Mosque Protest at Zuccotti Park: DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100527/manhattan/wtc-mosque-foes-making-carpool-travel-plans-for-dday-protest-at-zuccotti-park)

***

STOP ISLAMIZATION OF AMERICA (http://sioaonline.com/?p=358)

Need a Ride to the Protest Against the 911 Mega Mosque at Ground Zero?

Lots of good folks across America have asked us if we could hook them up with others traveling to the mega mosque protest on D Day, June 6th, at Ground Zero’s Zuccotti Park. We thought we would start a thread in the comment section for people to hook up. Need a ride? Meet up in the comment section of this post.

Any problems? Write to Robert or me in the comment section. Thanks

Zuccotti Park at Ground Zero. Zuccotti Park, formerly named and generally known as Liberty Plaza Park. is a 33,000-square-foot (3,100 m2) park in Lower Manhattan in New York City, New York. It is located between Broadway and Church streets and Liberty and Cedar streets. Its northwest corner is across the street from the World Trade Center site.

***

The comments at both websites linked above ^^^ seem to indicate it will be a loud and lively crowd, of a singular bent.

The flyer:

http://sioaonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mosque-flyerjune12.jpg

londonlawyer
June 3rd, 2010, 02:54 AM
What prejudiced pricks these people are. A mosque should be permitted in this area. However, I desperately hope that it's not built at that site because destroying those beautiful buildings would be a pity. In a city with so much dilapidated garbage, they could find a site worthy of development. I can think of several right on Broadway just south of Fulton Street.

DMAG
June 3rd, 2010, 08:39 AM
Wow, who would of thought? A decrying poster with obligatory burning WTC. Pathetic.

ZippyTheChimp
June 3rd, 2010, 08:42 AM
preserve our freedom, protect our democracy;
say no to mosque at “ground zero” »
lol!

Pamela Geller at the CB1 meeting.
http://web.me.com/broadsheet/Broadsheet/Home/Entries/2010/5/29_WednesdayMAy_26,_2010_files/DSC_2768CB1CordobaPamelaGellerBBB.jpg

Feel free to insert cartoon balloons.

Statun-Ilandur
June 3rd, 2010, 09:37 AM
9619



I rode by Park Place on the M6 bus last week. I glanced down the street at the old Burlington Coat Factory outlet that they want to tear down and turn into a Mosque.

When I first saw this story, I was taken aback by the hype and was angered by the sound of the media words. As I looked to my left from the bus, that is a small quiet and anonymous setting and even though two blocks from the WTC complex, is could be a hundred blocks away.

If there is a need for a mosque and they have the money they should get their mosque. Their present mosque on Murray is one block north in a loft building. That community has worshipped on Murray Street, three blocks from the WTC complex for years without anybody taking notice. One block cannot make that much of a difference in the scheme of things.

It was the real estate hype from the Muslim cleric/minister/real estate hustler and developer that magnified people’s fears about this RE deal. The extra space, a gym ? is that a spa and the thirteen stories – does that turn into office space or residential condos for Saudi Princes to help pay for the development and upkeep of a house of worship?.

Over on Staten Island is a mosque, picture above, recycled from some old abandoned and eyesore of a factory. The Muslim there are from Albania and being European you cannot tell the Muslims from the rest of the neighborhood unless they choose to not be secular and wear different clothing which I have not noticed when passing by.

If there is a need for a Mosque on Park Place, and the old building, the façades can be salvaged, all the more good for the sense of continuity, tradition and meaningful change in the fabric of the neighborhood.

I passed that Staten Island mosque on Obama’s inauguration day at the same time I heard him being sworn in on my car radio. I had errands so I only caught the end of his Inauguration Speech when I got home. The following lines from that end part of his speech hit home for me when I remembered the local mosque over there near Silver Lake Park that I had seen earlier.

“…that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace…”

Tolerating a mosque in the shadow of the WTC2 is right – it is American.

Clear rational heads relooking at this and a backdown from some of the initial RE hype could pave the way to a win-win situation here. I hope so. I pray so.

lofter1
June 3rd, 2010, 11:27 AM
No doubt this will drive Ms. Geller & Company CRAZY ...

Queens Student Becomes Top Cop For A Day

NY1 (http://www.ny1.com/content/119712/queens-student-becomes-top-cop-for-a-day)
By: CeFaan Kim
June 2, 2010

NY1 VIDEO (http://www.ny1.com/content/119712/queens-student-becomes-top-cop-for-a-day): A high-schooler from Astoria got to play the leading role of Police Commissioner Wednesday as part of the Police Athletic League's "Commissioner For A Day" essay contest.

***

The winner of yesterday's "Commissioner For A Day" is Muhammed Hassan Sarwar, a 17-year old who immigrated with his family from Pakistan five years ago. His winning essay was on the theme of "How to improve Relations between the NYPD and the City's Youth." Sarwar has no plans to pursue a career in law enforcement, but plans to enter Fordham University next fall to study business.

***

City High School Student Plays Top Cop for a Day

Astoria high schooler Muhammad Hassan Sarwar wins contest to sit behind Commissioner Ray Kelly's desk.

DNAInfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100602/gramercy-flatiron-union-square/city-high-school-student-plays-top-cop-for-day)
By Simone Sebastian
DNAinfo Reporter/Producer
June 2, 2010

MANHATTAN — A Washington Irving High School senior went from big man on his Gramercy Park campus to chief of New York City streets Wednesday.

Muhammad Hassan Sarwar, 17, wrote an essay that won him the chance to swear in as NYPD "Police Commissioner for a Day" at an NYPD annual event for city students.

Sarwar joined NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly for a meeting in Kelly's office and even got to sit in the top cop's chair on Wednesday.

Dozens of other students were sworn into various NYPD leadership positions Wednesday as part of the "Operation Impact for Schools" program. They met with the department's mounted and K-9 units and took a ride on the NYPD's harbor boat.

Since its inception in 2004, the program has contributed to a 58 percent decrease in crime occurring in selected schools, Kelly said in remarks at the event.

Derek2k3
June 3rd, 2010, 01:53 PM
I think this topic deserves a thread.


9619
If there is a need for a Mosque on Park Place, and the old building, the façades can be salvaged, all the more good for the sense of continuity, tradition and meaningful change in the fabric of the neighborhood.


Completely agree. I'm so disappointed that some of our fellow New Yorkers/Americans are buying into this hype. I thought we were better than this.

How disingenuous of the media for portraying that this is being built on the 16 acre site where the towers stood, when in actuality, this site has little to do with ground zero besides suffering damage from the dust cloud. Should we forbid mosques anywhere in Lower Manhattan? I must have missed the outrage when those crooks at Goldman Sachs erected their world headquarters on sacred ground.

But still, even if this was proposed on those 16 acres, I'd support it.
Muslims don't equal terrorists, why are Americans so stupid?

The saddest part will be that any efforts to save these buildings will appear as discrimination.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4666952790_5f26fe722b_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4666952792_416b30f631_b.jpg




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4666952780_d39761205b_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4666952774_fa42205a67_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4666952768_400dca185f_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4666345649_f7713a2aaf_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4666345659_fd0a1a1853_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4666345645_18c8399ecd_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4046/4666345633_5c1422e12f_b.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1278/4666345639_2b4f565b74_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4666346645_da300d3e94_b.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1304/4666346641_5d65d21f0d_b.jpg

Daquan13
June 3rd, 2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, the original WTC thread seems to have gotten off topic.

lofter1
June 3rd, 2010, 02:05 PM
I second the motion to separate out the Cordoba House / Mosque posts and start a new thread. Their inclusion within this thread only bolsters the erroneous belief that the plan is actually situated within the World Trade Center site.

Sherpa
June 3rd, 2010, 03:51 PM
lol!

Pamela Geller at the CB1 meeting.
http://web.me.com/broadsheet/Broadsheet/Home/Entries/2010/5/29_WednesdayMAy_26,_2010_files/DSC_2768CB1CordobaPamelaGellerBBB.jpg

Feel free to insert cartoon balloons.

"Suck this"

NYatKNIGHT
June 3rd, 2010, 03:52 PM
Done.

lofter1
June 3rd, 2010, 04:37 PM
Thanks.

futurecity
June 3rd, 2010, 05:01 PM
The mosque is extremely beautiful, I love arabic architecture.

GreenwichBoy
June 3rd, 2010, 05:44 PM
Pamela Geller = Clueless Idiot

lofter1
June 3rd, 2010, 05:47 PM
I'm going downtown at noon on Friday to watch the circus.

Merry
June 4th, 2010, 08:07 AM
Muslim Center Goes Modern Near Ground Zero

Defying critics, imam and developer seek balance between Islam and West through architecture and community

Matt Chaban

Sharif El-Gamal and Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf have spent the better part of the past decade trying to create an Islamic community center downtown. Yet it only took the month of May for that dream to almost unravel when it came up against monkey gods, the BBC, and the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission.

Last year, they settled on the former home of a Burlington Coat Factory on Park Place for their new center, the Cordoba House. Soho Properties, a real estate firm controlled by El-Gamal, paid just under $5 million for the two buildings that once housed the clothing retailer, one of which is a potential landmark. That the site is only two blocks from the World Trade Center is merely a coincidence, El-Gamal said, though that has not stopped it from becoming fodder for the local tabloids and subsequently making headlines around the world.

“There’s a huge Muslim community down there, it might be the largest in the city,” El-Gamal said, explaining the need for such a project in Lower Manhattan. He added that there is nothing like it anywhere else in the city, a much-needed 92nd Street Y of sorts for both the downtown and Islamic communities.

The 120,000-square-foot project, which is expected to cost $100 million, will include a 500-seat amphitheater, a Middle Eastern-themed food court and restaurants, athletic and recreational facilities, a daycare, and other amenities, as well as a prayer space, which has caused much of the furor over what has been dubbed the “Ground Zero Mosque.”
Imam Faisal said he believed the location will only strengthen the purpose of a center meant to be an extension of the Cordoba Initiative, a group he leads with the mission of improving Islamic-Western relations. “It’s become increasingly attractive because it gives us the opportunity to amplify the voices of the moderate Muslims who are the majority,” he said.

Architecturally, the pair proposes an ambitious structure rising upwards of 200 feet. Imam Faisal spoke of the Aga Khan Awards as inspiration though he also stressed the need to build something contemporary and equally American. “We want it to be part of the New York skyline, part of the personality of New York City, but also expressive of our own values,” he said. “Muslim values have made some very important contributions to architecture.”

He pointed to the controversy in Switzerland over minarets as an example not to follow. “The minaret is not required,” Imam Faisal said. “I’m not saying they should have looked like chalets, but they could have been more sensitive to the local architecture.” He added that to create the right balance for such a structure “requires genius, otherwise you get something schizophrenic.”

Last month, renderings were presented to the local community board as part of an outreach effort—the project is as of right—showing off strong geometric patterns and some abstractions of Arabic characters. El-Gamal stressed that the models were simply a starting point, though he added that much of the expression would come from façade treatments and not the building’s form, which is likely to be a conventional box. The board, as well as the mayor and other politicians, overwhelming supported the proposal despite headline-grabbing complaints from some 9/11 victims’ families and a Tea Party leader who suggested that Muslim monkey gods of his own invention would be worshipped there.

The bigger challenge comes from the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission. One of the two buildings, 45-47 Park Place, an Italianate warehouse from 1858, was calendared in 1989 but never addressed because Burlington Coat Factory opposed designation. The issue is expected to be resolved at a meeting this summer, though Simeon Bankoff, executive director of the Historic Districts Council, sees it as a difficult one because whichever way the commission rules, it will likely be blamed for taking sides. “I see this as a no win situation,” he said. The commission declined to comment.

El-Gamal acknowledged that he would prefer the building was not landmarked. “If it gets landmarked, we’re not going to be able to build the best facilities for the community, because the envelope will be difficult,” he said. Still, whatever the outcome, El-Gamal remains flexible, prepared to build wrap the new building around the old one if need be.

“It’s still going to happen,” he said.

http://www.archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=4591

ZippyTheChimp
June 4th, 2010, 08:18 AM
The issue is expected to be resolved at a meeting this summer, though Simeon Bankoff, executive director of the Historic Districts Council, sees it as a difficult one because whichever way the commission rules, it will likely be blamed for taking sides. “I see this as a no win situation,” he said. The commission declined to comment.
If that's the way the LPC sees it, they should just rule on the building's merits.

El-Gamal seems to have given them cover.

lofter1
June 5th, 2010, 08:30 PM
I'm going downtown at noon on Friday to watch the circus.

Good thing that the Nadal semi-final match kept me from heading downtown on Friday, since the Tea Party doesn't happen until tomorrow, SUNDAY June 6 :o

But the French Open Mens Final is Sunday 9A -12N, so I may miss the festivities (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/sunday-is-d-day-for-the-911-mega-mosque-protest.html) (yet again). Seems they still may not have the necessary permit ...

SUNDAY IS D DAY FOR THE 911 MEGA MOSQUE PROTEST (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/sunday-is-d-day-for-the-911-mega-mosque-protest.html)

Here's the latest in our protest and march for respect and understanding. Signs are important: "Ground Zero is a war memorial," "Ground Zero is sacred ground," "No Mosque on the Gravesite":

NYPD and Mosque Protesters Prepare for Sunday Demonstration (http://dnainfo.com/20100604/manhattan/nypd-mosque-protestors-prepare-for-sunday-demonstration#ixzz0ptVHrSTz)

LOWER MANHATTAN — Less than 72 hours before a large protest against the ground zero mosque, both the demonstrators and the police are making final plans.

The D-Day protest, which will likely draw hundreds of people, starts at noon on Sunday at the corner of Church and Liberty Streets, across from the World Trade Center site.

The NYPD’s 1st Precinct has called in extra officers from the Borough Manhattan South Patrol, and the NYPD is finalizing crowd control plans, a police official told DNAinfo.

“We’re absolutely aware of it,” the official said. “We’re working with the organization to make sure it goes smoothly.”

"Ground zero is a war memorial, a burial ground,” Pamela Geller, executive director of SIOA, said in an e-mail to DNAinfo this week. “A mosque is incredibly insensitive."

SIOA originally planned to demonstrate in Zuccotti Park this Sunday. But Brookfield Properties, the owner of the plaza, revoked the permit when the nature of the event became clear.

Now, SIOA plans to protest at one corner of the plaza, on the public sidewalk. As long as they do not block the sidewalk or the street, or spill into the plaza, they do not need a permit.

The group does need a city permit for their sound amplification system, which should be approved by the end of the week, the NYPD official said.

More than 600 people have said on Facebook that they will attend the protest. Many of them are using SIOA’s website to arrange carpools from all over the northeast and beyond.

The protestors plan to carry American flags and sing “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” and “God Bless America.

*

STOP ISLAMICIZATION OF AMERICA (http://sioaonline.com/?p=381)

BE THERE AT THE CORNER OF CHURCH AND LIBERTY TO PROTEST THE ISLAMIC SUPREMACIST MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO.

SIOA Rally June 6 Against Islamic Supremacist Mosque At Ground Zero

The SIOA No 9/11 Mosque Rally will be at the corner of Church and Liberty Streets, near Ground Zero. Supporting groups include the Freedom Defense Initiative; ACT for America (ACT Manhattan chapter); Z Street; SIOE; No Mosque at Ground Zero; Staten Island Tea Party; American Bulldogs; VAST; the Center for Security Policy; Shalom International; the Unity Coalition for Israel; 911 Families; Indian American Intellectuals Forum; Veterans Against Jihad (VAJ); and Faith Freedom International.

... Building the Ground Zero mosque is not an issue of religious freedom, but of resisting an effort to insult the victims of 9/11 and to establish a beachhead for political Islam and Islamic supremacism in New York.

*

Pamela Geller (BFF of Liz Cheney (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/liz-cheney-calls-out-obamas-antisemitism.html)) posts a pre-rally warning (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/racist-bigot-hate-monger-max-blumenthal-exposed-faker-is-a-fake.html):

911 MEGA MOSQUE PROTESTERS BEWARE: Be on the lookout for the pro-racist, pro-islamofascist "progressive" Max Blumenthal (http://www.nationinstitute.org/images/people/220/max_blumenthal.gif). See pictures of Max Blumenthal here (http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/maxblumenthal.jpg) and here (http://www.bashamandcornell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/MaxBlumenthalFeather.jpg). He has a video camera and looks for people at anti-islamofascist rallies who are flattered that he wants to interview them, but when they are at a loss for words, he suggests inflammatory words that the unsuspecting fall for. He then edits videos to suit his progressively islamofascist worldview. Be careful of racist "max blumenthal".

*

More from the mouth (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/imam-unmosqued-911-ground-zero-mega-mosque-rauf-tied-to-jew-hating-jihad-warship-flotilla-.html) of Pamela Geller ...

IMAM UNMOSQUED: 911 GROUND ZERO MEGA MOSQUE RAUF TIED TO JEW-HATING JIHAD WARSHIP FLOTILLA

It just gets uglier and uglier. Islamic supremacist Imam Rauf, the imam behind that grotesque flag of conquest on Ground Zero. The New York Post is reporting that jihadist Rauf is tightly tied to the genocidal Jew-hating group behind the murderous attack on Jewish soldiers on the warship flotilla.

He's a Jew hater, but I am sure no one dances the inter faith jig better than he.

*

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 04:54 PM
I should have known better, but I'd never been to a Tea Party before. So after watching Nadal reclaim his title in Paris :D I took a walk down to Liberty Street.

There were lots of folks on hand, with American flags all around, and many speakers going on and on about how there shouldn't be a mosque on the memorial site or on hallowed ground, etc., etc. Off to the side one woman was really drawing a crowd with her visual aids so I asked here where the mosque was going to be. She looked around, trying to figure it out, but looked a bit bewildered. I said, "Yeah you can't see it from here because it's two blocks north of the WTC. It's not on the site." Well, you'd think I sprouted a tail, because all of a sudden, from all sides, it was "What kind of American are you?" and "What part of the Constitution do you have a problem with?" and "You're going to argue with lies, too?" and "Ah, you use lies like Barack Obama" and so on and so on. I said a few choice words in return.

I asked "How far from the site is OK for a mosque?" "Nowhere near" was the answer I heard over and over. Let's just say it got a bit heated.

Later one speaker on the platform later out: "No mosque at the Memorial, no mosque in New York, no mosque in America." So that seems to be the bottom line: No mosques anywhere. But what can be expected from a group called Stop Islamicization of America (or, as many signs there read: "Stop Islamization of America")?

None of the people down there knew where the Cordoba House buildings are located (45 Park Place, many blocks north of where they were rallying). Nor did they seem to have an inkling that the Cordoba plan isn't within the WTC site. But it's not about a building, to them it's about an idealogy they fear and want to eradicate. It's clear these folks are set in their ideas, and nothing can or will budge them. In their eyes I'm an infidel, beyond saving. One guy gave me these parting words: "God Bless America. But not you."

So, anyway, I'm no longer a Tea Party virgin. I'll often try something more than once; in this case once was definitely enough.

Here's how it looked downtown today around 1 PM:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_01.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_02.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_02a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_03a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_04a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_05.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_05a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_06a.jpg

*

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 05:01 PM
More from Liberty and Church:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_09.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_07a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_07.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_08.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_12a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_11.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_13.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_14a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_10a.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_15a.jpg

*

londonlawyer
June 6th, 2010, 05:07 PM
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_15a.jpg

These people are real d.icks. Christians and Jews (from our pathetic country and Israel) have killed far more innocent Muslims than Muslims have killed Christians and Jews.

Also, to the extent that the schlong is the US-flag shirt really believes in the alleged values of this country, he fails to grasp that freedom of religion, among other liberties, is one of its theoretical cornerstones.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 05:37 PM
I'd seen enough, so I headed north ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_16.jpg

Notice the sign pasted onto the lamp post. It's a catch-all of proclamations, saying:


OUR DEMOCRACY IS NOT FOR SALE!
INVESTIGATE 9/11/01 DEMOLITIONS!
END ILLEGAL WARS CREATED FROM MYTHS!
REGULATE BANKING LAWS, DEREGULATED IN 1999!

On my way home I thought I'd see what was going on out front of 45 Park Place, the proposed site for Cordoba House. I wondered why Geller and crew didn't hold the protest there (aside from the fact that [a] they have no idea where it is, and [b] if they were to hold their PR rally there it would show that Cordoba House isn't at the WTC site or "overlooking" the WTC Memorial). Pamela Geller claims that the building there should be made a National War Memorial since a piece of the landing gear from one of the planes that hit the WTC towers went through the roof of 45 Park Place and ended up inside the building. Geller said today on CNN (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/911-mega-mosque-pamela-geller-vs-islamic-supremacist-liar-on-cnn-sunday-morning-june-6-2010-.html) (this part begins at ~ 6:55 on the CNN vid) that "There's a piece of that plane in that building and to pray next to that is repugnant to any decent American, to any Muslim of conscience ..."

:confused:

I think she means to limit the no-prayer zone to the "repugnant" infidels; no doubt there will be a lot of praying of all sorts going on all around the WTC Memorial.

Up at 45 Park Place not a soul was to be found:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_17.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_18.jpg

The building across the street (100 Church (http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&id=116127&lng=3); 20-stories) will successfully block any views to the south of the planned 16-story Cordoba House:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_19.jpg

The rear of Cordoba House will also be hemmed in by the 16-story building at 110 Church (http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&lng=3&id=110churchstreet-newyorkcity-ny-usa), thereby limiting views from anywhere in the proposed building:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_20.jpg

*

londonlawyer
June 6th, 2010, 05:42 PM
As much as I support a mosque in this area, these buildings should not be razed. I lived and worked in this area for many years and can attest that there's plenty of mierda that could be razed instead of these beautiful buildings. Hopefully, the losers at LPC will be useful for once.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 05:57 PM
Cordoba House could keep the facades and build (as of right) up an additional 9 or more floors (if the new part were set back from the existing buildings then it could undoubtedly go higher than the planned 16 story height).

If the existing parts are landmarked then maybe they'll make the Cordoba House vertical enlargement really skinny, so that the top floor rises tall enough to have an actual view of downtown. Wouldn't that be ironic. Forced by Landmarking and FAR to become Pamela Geller's perceived nightmare.

londonlawyer
June 6th, 2010, 06:03 PM
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_19.jpg

I'll celebrate when this POS is razed.

Fabrizio
June 6th, 2010, 06:23 PM
Apart from the over-the-top retoric and misplaced arguments seen in those photos, even in the best of situations a new mosque is not as simple as the Lutherans setting up camp. Across the country the FBI is infitrating mosques. Why is that?

And note the Islamic clerics that have had to be ousted from mosques in the US and Europe.

The Islamic Center in Washington was even raided by police. From the DC Islamic Center's web site: http://www.islamiccenterdc.com/whathappened.htm

If the FBI is concerned then I think it's understandable that ordinary citizens are concerned.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 06:30 PM
Of course it will be watched. And if anything illegal is going on it will be dealt with.

Let's not put the cart before the horse.

ZippyTheChimp
June 6th, 2010, 07:01 PM
The actual mosque has been in Tribeca for many years.

londonlawyer
June 6th, 2010, 07:59 PM
...
If the FBI is concerned then I think it's understandable that ordinary citizens are concerned.

The FBI should devote more time to monitoring the nuts in the Tea Party.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 08:39 PM
Pamela Geller throws a Tea Party downtown and afterwards she goes all megalomaniacal (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/excelsior-five-thousand-protest-911-mega-mosque.html) ...

EXCELSIOR! UPWARDS OF EIGHT THOUSAND PROTEST 911 MEGA MOSQUE ON D DAY!

Despite weather forecasts of thunderstorms and rain, the skies were clear and beautiful -- but not as beautiful as this patriotic crowd of great Americans and Europeans. It was a real cross section of humanity .......... ever race, creed, color and religion were out in all their glory.

Robert and I were expecting 500; imagine our wonder when close to 5,000 showed up. This is just the beginning. We are going to sue to designate the Burlington building a war memorial. There is a large piece of an airplane in that building. That is a war memorial. Instead of a mega mosque at ground zero, let's build a 911 war memorial to the victims. The current plan for a 911 museum is several floors underground, like a dungeon. And the mosque plan calls for the mosque to be on the top floor, looking down triumphantly on the burial ground of Ground Zero.

I don't think so. The Burlington building must be a war memorial, an historic landmark. We will sue to make that happen. We will protest again in September and stage sit-ins in front of the mosque should they try to break ground. Three thousand good and decent Americans did not die in vain.

Derek2k3
June 6th, 2010, 08:45 PM
Great coverage Lofter.


can attest that there's plenty of mierda that could be razed instead of these beautiful buildings.
Like?

Besides 4 or 5 hulking buildings near Church, this area is packed full of beautiful buildings. I can't think of any lots similar in size to 45 Park Place that doesn't have a nice building on it.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Ms. Geller: Get your facts straight. No one died in 45 Park Place.

But if she can raise the money to buy the building (imagine the closing between Geller and the Cordoba House property owners :cool: ) and raise the millions to create a memorial there, then more power to her.

I'm trying to imagine what her alternative to the "dungeon" will be.

While she's getting 45 PP designated an official war memorial what about all the other sites that had pieces of plane land on them? There's another building at 40 Rector that fits her criteria (not to mention the corner of Church & Murray; see below):

*

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 08:52 PM
Not to miss event: The LPC hearing regarding 45 Park Place. The Commissioners won't know what hit them.

Derek2k3
June 6th, 2010, 09:02 PM
The building across the street (100 Church (http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&id=116127&lng=3); 20-stories) will successfully block any views to the south of the planned 16-story Cordoba House:

I think you will be able to see 1 WTC from that site just by looking up.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. This will probably be the most closely watched mosque in the country. They could save themselves the trouble and controversy by choosing another site.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 09:09 PM
Yeah, being forced out would sit well.

Ignorant folks have already used their small minds to scuttle the original version of the Visitors Center, not to mention the intent of the WTC Performing Arts Center.

The new version of an "only like us" NYC is something to look forward to.

lofter1
June 6th, 2010, 09:14 PM
I think you will be able to see 1 WTC from that site just by looking up.


They claim it will "overlook" the Memorial site.

If the criteria is "No Mosque within the sight of the new 1 WTC" then that pretty much takes out all of NYC and a big part of New Jersey.

Derek2k3
June 6th, 2010, 09:22 PM
heh, right.
Many Muslims innocently lost there lives on 9/11 too. They need to get over it.

ZippyTheChimp
June 6th, 2010, 10:58 PM
Ignorant folks have already used their small minds to scuttle the original version of the Visitors Center, not to mention the intent of the WTC Performing Arts Center.I don't think it's the same. Not much political backing this time.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:45 AM
Fortunately Ms. Geller has firmly established herself as a member of the Birther brethren (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/obamas_birth_certifcate_forgery/) and will, hopefully, remain on the fringe along with the rest of her crazed Tea Partying gang:

ACTION ITEM: Here is how we stop the Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero.
By filling lower Manhattan surrounding the mosque’s site with pig-themed public art.

HillBuzz (http://hillbuzz.org/2010/05/15/action-item-here-is-how-we-stop-the-mega-mosque-at-ground-zero-by-filling-lower-manhattan-surrounding-the-mosques-site-with-pig-themed-public-art/)

Currently, Muslims are attempting to build “a Mega-Mosque” near the site of the World Trade Center — to celebrate the murder of 3,000 Americans by Muslims on 9/11/01 by installing a mosque near Ground Zero as Islam’s way of claiming victory over America. Having a mosque so near the site of Islam’s worst attack on America, where their call to prayer will echo out into the streets where thousands of people ran for their lives on the day “The Religion of Peace” decided to prove, yet again, how peaceful it really is would be beyond shameful. It’s an absolute disgrace.

Here’s how we stop it folks — and all it will take will be enough wealthy conservative, independent, and moderate private individuals in New York City to commission public works of art to line all the sidewalks in a three block radius of where that “Mega-Mosque” is supposed to be built.

Pig sculptures.

Pig fountains.

Pig murals.

A vast procession of pigs leading straight to where this Mega-Mosque is supposed to be built, so that any Muslims making a pilgrimage to this building to celebrate the murders on 9/11 will appear to join all of those giant pigs headed straight for the mosque as well.

If the Muslims have obtained city zoning permits and all the necessary paperwork to build this abomination, and if it’s really true that no one can stop them, then the only thing left to do is to make that location undesirable to them for a mosque.

Pigs are considered undesirable in Islam. Muslims are not allowed to touch them, be near them, eat them, or have anything else to do with them.

Surely they would not want to make their pilgrimages to a building that’s aggressively surrounded by pig sculptures.

New Yorkers can easily justify the placement of these sculptures with some sort of connection to slaughterhouses, butcher shops, or other such relics in lower Manhattan’s past. Even an especially delicious deli will do. Ever eat a really great ham sandwich in the food court of the buildings Muslims blew up on 9/11? Let’s commemorate it with 3,000 sculptures of pigs lining every possible inch of the three block radius around this mosque. One pig for each man, woman, and child killed by Muslims that day ...

It’s mission is clear to us in the site it selected for this Mega-Mosque.

The only thing bullies like Muslims understand is pushback.

If we don’t want the Scientology of the Middle Ages to build a mosque somewhere, we need to make that area undesirable to Muslims…we can think of no better way to instantly do this than to fill that area with poignant memories of all those murdered by Muslims on 9/11, carried towards that mosque on the bellies and hides of 3,000 colorful, impossible to miss, ginormous, permanently installed, PIGS.

Oh, Muslims and the Left will howl and wail over this idea.

But we tell you that every day you must think outside the box to defeat Islam. These are people who spend all day memorizing the demented ravings of a pedophile from the Middle Ages. They’re upset to the point of madness by cartoons. They can be driven out of a room by the merest whiff of bacon — like vampires fleeing from garlic or holy water.

Those pigs would be like 3,000 crosses burning their vampire eyes, driving them away in legion. Howling, wailing, their bedsheets and towels flapping in the wind, racing as fast as they can to escape the ridiculous optic insult of porcine grace, beauty, and deliciousness.

... Since everything old ends up being new again, why not build an enormous Mega-Pig directly across from the Mega-Mosque…a pig a full story taller than the mosque, so that it’s unclean shadow would forever block the sun from shining upon the monstrosity Islam wants to build near Ground Zero?

Instead of spitting water out of its mouth like the Florence statue at the top, is there a way this pig could be depicted urinating or vomiting in the general direction of the mosque? Is it possible to direct a fire-hose grade stream of yellow water straight at the mosque, stopping right at its property line, but guaranteeing the bacon-scented mist from the statue would drench all Muslims attempted to enter the mosque?

How appealing would this Mega-Mosque be to Islam if there was no possible way to ever photograph or visit it without having thousands of pigs, including one mighty Hogzilla, plastered all over the photos? That sure would defeat whatever propaganda value Islam hoped to score by building this thing so near Ground Zero.

The most amazing thing about this plan is that you know in your hearts it would actually work. It’s left field. It’s nuts. It’s ballsy (especially if that whole urination thing could be pulled off with the giant male hog…with a penis so big and imposing it would captivate President Obama and Rahm Emanuel for DAYS if erected and positioned in such a way they could gape lovingly at it undisturbed, drooling and drooling and drooling into the puddling yellow-dyed water raining forever from above).

Islam wants a Mega-Mosque.

We want more pig sculptures than have ever been assembled in one place to surround that mosque.

If one intensely insane project can come to fruition — why not the other?

Statun-Ilandur
June 7th, 2010, 09:15 AM
I thought Lofter’s photos give a better perspective on the crowd than Geller’s site. I had estimated a casual crowd of 2,000 to 3,000 in Liberty Park. CNN estimated 5,000 – how do you separate the tourists from the protesters? Geller’s site estimated 8,000 and as high as 10,000. This first photo in Atlas Shrugs, which I am unable to reproduce, would have had me deceived if I had not reckoned parameters from Lofter’s set of photos. The street was not closed off. The crowd does not go off to a vanishing point hundreds of feet down Trinity Place.

Of course, photos do not express everything. A personal POV sees what it wants to see. The louder the rhetoric, the more you might get in your non-profit tax-free entity to build a memorial etc. at Park Place. I do not know if SIOA is a non-profit at this point. More often than not lately non-profits are being used to channel money all over the political spectrum as in recent Prop 8 in California.

It is perhaps too strong a word, but Hate, and in connection with a lot of anonymous political, religious agenda money fuels what I term “hate non-profits”. Not a very democratic way to debate important social issues these days.

But this aside from the RE hype end to raise cash to build, the other end looks and feels like a political agenda fueled by anonymous cash as well at stirred up hate in the streets – a Tea Party wave affect.

***


To change the subject, for Cordoba House itself, I have seen the phrase “facadism” to characterize putting a modern structure up and retaining the original street façade as an organic part of the new structure. Below is a building behind Independence Hall in Philly whose façade was saved in 1975 because it was one of the earliest and best surviving examples of Egyptian Revival architecture in America. Saved façade on extreme left of photo.

9664

Using a saved façade and your mention of height restrictions I think that like the Penn Mutual Tower in Philadelphia, the façade at 45 Park place could be held upright with concrete pillars and a small fifteen to twenty foot garden or courtyard could accent the entrance way to a many storied modern building.

londonlawyer
June 7th, 2010, 09:45 AM
Great coverage Lofter.


Like?

Besides 4 or 5 hulking buildings near Church, this area is packed full of beautiful buildings. I can't think of any lots similar in size to 45 Park Place that doesn't have a nice building on it.

There's a crap building on Trinity just south of Liberty behind BK;

the POS on the west side of B'Way that houses Payless shoes;


the POS on the east side of B'Way at the corner of John that houses Easy Sprit shoes;

the POS at the corner of Maiden and Nassau that houses a crappy pizza place, etc., etc.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 10:16 AM
Please keep this thread focused on the Cordoba House site at 45-51 Park Place (which per DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/PropertyProfileOverviewServlet?boro=1&houseno=45&street=park+place&requestid=0&s=A03C41B885B461E4F46BD08866A7430E) is actually one building ~ 106' in length along Park Place and covering four old lots, but showing two dissimilar facades). Only the older 5-story facade (circa 1857) on the east end of the parcel is calendered for possible landmark status (at right, below). Per the Landmark application the 4-story facade to the west with the big arch is not set for protection.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_18.jpg

Derek2k3
June 7th, 2010, 11:05 AM
There's a crap building on Trinity just south of Liberty behind BK;

the POS on the west side of B'Way that houses Payless shoes;


the POS on the east side of B'Way at the corner of John that houses Easy Sprit shoes;

the POS at the corner of Maiden and Nassau that houses a crappy pizza place, etc., etc.

I don't consider any of those close by and I think they want a site in TriBeCa.

ZippyTheChimp
June 7th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Despite weather forecasts of thunderstorms and rain, the skies were clear and beautiful -- but not as beautiful as this patriotic crowd of great Americans and Europeans. It was a real cross section of humanity .......... ever race, creed, color and religion were out in all their glory.


A vast procession of pigs leading straight to where this Mega-Mosque is supposed to be built, so that any Muslims making a pilgrimage to this building to celebrate the murders on 9/11 will appear to join all of those giant pigs headed straight for the mosque as well.


Animal Farm

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9328/pig01.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6551/geller01.jpg

Maybe we should put pigs in front of all Muslim stores. That seems to remind me of something.

londonlawyer
June 7th, 2010, 11:36 AM
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/100606_CordobaProtest_18.jpg

It would be such a loss if these buildings are razed. The schmucks at LPC need to be useful. As I recall, half of Washington Street was razed and is awaiting new development. The same holds true with respect to the beautiful terra cotta building that Chang the Wang razed on Greenwich.

londonlawyer
June 7th, 2010, 11:38 AM
Animal Farm

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6551/geller01.jpg

I guarantee that this racist bitch thinks that Israel's war crimes in Gaza last winter and against the Turkish aid ship last week were justified.

Statun-Ilandur
June 7th, 2010, 12:33 PM
9665

Is anybody able to find the graphics on a Commissioned by the Legislature "April 3, 1807 - Wm. Bridges City Surveyor, City of New York" map? I am working off an old copy of it and tried scanning it – too poor in quality in the original printing, paper and engraving, for me to reproduce here.

If you look and see that Robinson St is now the current Park Place and look at the distance from Chapel St. (West Broadway) I would have to say or guess that Cordoba House is sitting right on top of one of the original two Columbia College (now University) buildings outlined on the map.

http://www.c250.columbia.edu/c250_events/symposia/history_newyork_timeline.html



August 23 (1756) —Cornerstone of King's College building laid on the northeast corner of Murray and Church Streets.


Looking at my map, I think they mean the Northeast Corner of that city block and not the northeast corner of an intersection. Need verification on this.

If they tear these buildings down, they are probably going to have to wait while archeologists shift through the basement floor dirt for probable and historic artifacts. Hell, the walls of the basement may even be recycled bricks and junk from the original King's College Building!

All the more reason to save the facades in a big building scheme as a compromise to preserving some history on a very historic site.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 02:01 PM
The 1807 Map is HERE (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/h?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3804n+ct000812))); A Zoomable / Navigational version of the same Map is available there by pointing & clicking the Map:


This map of the city of New York and island of Manhattan, as laid out by the commissioners appointed by the legislature, April 3d, 1807 is respectfully dedicated to the mayor, aldermen and commonalty thereof / by their most obedient servant Wm. Bridges, city surveyor ; engraved by P. Maverick.

Indeed it appears that the original Columbia College buildings you describe span what is now Park Place (then Robinson Street) between Church + Chapel (now West Broadway). Some of those buildings apparently sat on what is now 45 Park Place.

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lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 02:10 PM
Some more info (http://www.college.columbia.edu/cct_archive/mar04/columbia250_3.php) on the old Columbia / Kings College campus ...

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Statun-Ilandur
June 7th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Great stuff Lofter!. I am all thumbs when it comes to the photo shop stuff.

My two buildings are a little bit different but then my map is a cheap copy made for tourists:



“Reduced to ½ Scales and Lith. by G. Hayward, 120 Water Street for T.D. Valentine’s Manual, 1853.”


Is the archeology thing a problem here in NYC where everything is for sale at any price. I grew up in Philly surrounded with history, thus my interest.


I mentioned the basement aspect of Cordoba House because they will usually tell you some aspect of archeology after they start pouring the concrete. They were so obsessed with finishing I-95 in Downtown Philly in the seventies, they discovered the first place Ben Franklin had worked as a printer. The building was long gone. They gave the archeologists like two weeks to do a quick dig in the basement. Only after they poured the concrete did they bother to mention that "you know what? the original basement walls were left in place when they built a victorian building after tearing down the original colonial building a century ago."


Where does this historic thing about 45 Park Place do to this RE deal? On a scale of 1 to 10, I am guessing that city hall and the developers put history concern at -5.

ZippyTheChimp
June 7th, 2010, 05:22 PM
^
It depends on what's found and where. A colonial era retaining wall was discovered when digging began for the South Ferry #1 terminal. Work stopped for a month or so while the site was investigated. Part of the wall was incorporated into the design.

Hard to know for sure, but my guess is that there isn't anything in the foundation that connects to King's College. The street was added after the land was sold. That was pre Civil War, and 45 Park Pl was built in 1923. So it's not a first generation replacement.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 07:47 PM
Isn't 49-51 Park Place (the arch-faced building) the newer part of the plot? My understanding is that 45-47 Park Place (http://archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=4591), the 5-story Italianate building is the structure calendered by LPC, was built in ~ 1858. If so it is highly likely that it was the first substantial building added on that site after the sale of the property and construction of the new roadway that cut through the Columbia College campus.

The building where I live (within a landmarked Historic District) was built in pieces over the past 110 years, but the later construction went in -- over and around -- where there was once an old church (circa 1845). Part of the church's original schist foundations and exterior brick walls still exist.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:05 PM
From the NYPL Digital Library, similar views of the Columbia buildings that seem to correspond to some of the long structures seen on the 1807 maps:

Columbia College 1818 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690532&imageID=801248&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=9&e=w)

Columbia College 1828 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690550&imageID=801249&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=14&e=w)

Columbia College 1831 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=254477&imageID=429703&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=6&e=w)

Columbia College 1849 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690557&imageID=801263&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=7&e=w)

Columbia College 1850 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690529&imageID=801266&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=13&e=w)

Columbia College 1853 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690538&imageID=801262&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=10&e=w)

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:08 PM
Another image (attached) of Columbia College from NYPL (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1016928&imageID=836475&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=19&e=w#_seemore), which includes this info:


Image Title: Columbia College, Murray Street, 1756 to 1857.

That end date of 1857 would infer that the building now standing at 45-47 Park Place went up very shortly after the Columbia structures were razed.

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lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:23 PM
More NYPL images:

Columbia College. The library. (1856) (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1804145&imageID=1659480&total=106&num=0&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=20&e=w#_seemore) :: "Notes: Shows the old building near Murray St., whence the College removed to Madison Ave. in 1857"

Columbia College (1840) (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690533&imageID=801258&total=106&num=20&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=21&e=w#_seemore) :: This one seems to show the intersection of Park Place (then Robinson) and Church, where the street ended and a gated entry to the campus stood.

Columbia College, 1840 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690544&imageID=801256&total=106&num=20&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=29&e=w) :: Another view of the gated entry to the campus.

Columbia College. ([1853]) (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=118794&imageID=54945&total=106&num=20&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=36&e=w) :: Color litho of the gated entry

Columbia College (1852) (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1792038&imageID=1659180&total=106&num=20&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=25&e=w#_seemore) :: Color lithograph: "Image Title: Columbia College dedicated to the Class of '52 by Harvey B. Dodworth. New York. Above, within border: Old College Sycamore Schottisch"

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:30 PM
The last of the NYPL bunch ...

Columbia College at the foot of Park Place. (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690549&imageID=801253&total=106&num=20&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=34&e=w#_seemore)

Notes: Written on border: "King's College." "1755."

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lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:37 PM
Not quite the last:

King's College, erected in 1756 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=690548&imageID=801265&total=106&num=40&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=47&e=w#_seemore)

View of Columbia College in the city of New York. ([1790]) (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=118289&imageID=54235&total=106&num=40&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=46&e=w) (attached below)

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lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:42 PM
An actual PHOTO (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=137010&imageID=119662&total=106&num=80&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=97&e=w#_seemore) (attached) of the old buildings:

Old King's College building, about 1857, after streets were cut through.
The east front toward College Place. (ca. 1857)

ZippyTheChimp
June 7th, 2010, 08:44 PM
^
You're right. The one building was constructed by a shipping company in 1858.

I've got an idea as to why the building was calendared by LPC in 1989, but never got a hearing. It was one of many stand-alone buildings that were used as examples to to get an historic district proposed in the 80s. The first four segments were designated in rapid succession in 1991 - 1992. No district was established south of Chambers St until the extension on Warren St in 2002.

The large area that was protected was big win at the time, and I think that 45 Park Pl was just forgotten, although it remained on the record for consideration.

I doubt that anyone at LPC would ever admit to this.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 08:53 PM
A Federal era map of the area (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=118320&imageID=54267&total=106&num=100&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=103&e=w#_seemore) (full map & enlarged section attached) ...

[B]Image: A new and accurate plan of the city of New York in the state of New York in North America. (1797)

Notes: Note 3.) View of Columbia College possibly based on Cornelis Tiebout's 1790 engraving

Statun-Ilandur
June 7th, 2010, 10:08 PM
An actual PHOTO (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=137010&imageID=119662&total=106&num=80&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=97&e=w#_seemore) (attached) of the old buildings:

Old King's College building, about 1857, after streets were cut through.
The east front toward College Place. (ca. 1857)

Some cursory research would suggest that "College Place" is West Broadway today, was Chapel St. on a map etc. College Place is at West Broadway and Murray on a stone street sign embedded on a brick building there at the second story level.

If the building in the photo is facing College Place then is was only cut through around 1857 and facing west as in West Broadway.

A lot of times there is mislabeling in archival material. Just consider this in your futher research. On my 1853 copy of the 1807 map, I have two parrallel buildings. Your original 1807 map differs. I have to wonder sometimes if map makers copied other people's maps or went out and surveyed the sites themselves. Just a thought.

lofter1
June 7th, 2010, 11:11 PM
I thought the "cut through" of the street noted on the photo referred to Robinson Street / Park Place, thereby putting those buildings as running parallel with Park Place -- most likely the long building that ran east <> west on the Columbia College campus.

Maps as early as the 1797 map in post #73 show that the north <> south streets (Church / College Place, later Chapel, later West Broadway) were in place as far south as the southern end of the College well before the time the photo was taken.

This map is from 1855 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1785881&imageID=1648060&total=22&num=0&word=church%20street%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=11&e=w#_seemore) (as written in very tiny type at the bottom left, and viewable using multiple clicks of the ZOOM option). It shows the Columbia College buildings fronting onto the newly-cut through Park Place (at left in the Zoomed portion, attached below) with College Place (West Broadway) at top ...

This MAP from 1852 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=673656&imageID=1270007&total=8&num=0&word=college%20place%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=2&e=w) is before the street was cut through and shows the area between Church <> College Place as part of the Columbia College campus, open to the east but closed off to the west by a structure where Robinson Street would meet up with the campus.

This GOOGLE BOOK Search (http://books.google.com/books?id=IR2YOYMplbMC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=%22New+York+City%22+%22Robinson+street%22+%22Pa rk+Place%22&source=bl&ots=Us6rA9LdaA&sig=UHJsYu2hAnvTOLpU2VtMsJiNr_g&hl=en&ei=KLANTKPhIcL6lwfrg_i4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CD8Q6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=%22New%20York%20City%22%20%22Robinson%20street%2 2%20%22Park%20Place%22&f=false) shows that originally ...


"Robinson Street ran from Broadway to the College Green, and then continued from it on the western side to the North [Hudson] River; but in 1813, the name was retained west of the college, while east it was changed to Park place."

What I'm trying to figure out now is when did the rest of Robinson Street get changed to Park Place?

And who the heck is Robinson :confused:

Forgotten NY (http://www.forgotten-ny.com/streetnecrology/lowermanhattannecrology/necro1.html) has some info on Robinson Street (but the location is not really correct, and places the change of name at "in the late 1800s").

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Stroika
June 8th, 2010, 12:46 AM
Lofter, thanks for that. It's fascinating stuff, and valuable work you're doing.

Statun-Ilandur
June 8th, 2010, 01:06 AM
The direction of "east" front in post photo #71 was a bit confusing to me. Perhaps they were referring to college green instead of college place. With the dug out street in photo, were they going down to new street level or what was standard infrastructure in 1850's - Water pipes, sewers etc ?

Your plot maps give me a good basic ground view of the complex better than any street maps.

Your map 1855 suggests that Columbia was already divesting itself of property. Your thumbnail from map 1855 has property labeled "U.S. Marshall's office". In Map 1852 there is a visable hallway type connection between main college building and grand building on W B'way and Murray. Perhaps this was main admin building or as the street name implies, the Chapel.

Columbia on Morningside Heights has a magnificent chapel. It may be a tradition going back two hundred years.

As for Robinson, I am willing to bet he may be early college benefactor or early college president or whatever title was appropriate back when.

Your plot maps are wonderful. 45 Park Place is really sitting on major grand NYC history.

Statun-Ilandur
June 8th, 2010, 06:20 AM
Think we can get a webcam on site for the archeological digs?

9684

http://www.bcheritage.ca/artifacts/kosapsom/tools.htm

Do we think this RE deal has a few more hoops to jump through than anticipated?

lofter1
June 8th, 2010, 12:23 PM
An interesting bit of History regarding Columbia College and religious tolerance, from the NY Times 1854, when a resolution was debated to allow the inclusion of Unitarians as members of the Columbia faculty. The original Columbia (King's College) charter from 1754, later revised, included a "test" which sought to keep out Catholics. in 1854 certain Alumni sought to re-instate the test requirement in an effort to keep out those who were deemed to hold opinions & beliefs which were not in line ...

NEW-YORK CITY.; COLUMBIA COLLEGE. Meeting of the Alumni of Columbia College.

NY TIMES (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E07E4DC153DE334BC4C51DFB266838F 649FDE)
April 24, 1854

An adjourned meeting of the Alumni of Columbia College was held Saturday, at the Chapel of the College. The object of the meeting was to obtain the sense of the Alumni upon the subject of uniting in the Centennial Celebration of the founding of the Institution, in accordance with an invitation extended to them by its Trustees. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

Full Article [pdf] (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E07E4DC153DE334BC4C51DFB266838F649FDE)

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lofter1
June 8th, 2010, 12:47 PM
The direction of "east" front in post photo #71 was a bit confusing to me.

Perhaps they were referring to college green instead of college place.


I also find that label on the photo (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=137010&imageID=119662&total=106&num=80&word=columbia%20college&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=97&e=w#_seemore) to be confusing. From looking at the earlier maps & lithos of buildings, it seems that what's shown in the photo (the building with the cupola standing almost at the edge of the street cut) would be the long structure(s) facing south onto what was previously the College Green.

Looking at maps from before and after Park Place was cut through the campus, a map from 1852 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=673656&imageID=1270007&total=17&num=0&word=barclay%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=2&e=w) (pre-street cut, with south to the left) shows a Columbia College building on the north side of where the Green would have been located. Also on that 1852 map: On the south side of the College Green a series of buildings can be seen fronting onto Barclay Street and whose lots back up onto the Green area. Similar to what Statun-Islander noted about Columbia properties on the north side of the campus, this indicates that by 1852 Columbia had already divested itself of the lots / properties on the south side of the campus (where earlier maps show a long building that parallelled and face the Columbia College building with the cupola across the Green to the north):

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/ColumbiaMap_1852_07a.jpg

A later map (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1785891&imageID=1648070&total=30&num=0&word=park%20place%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=9&e=w) (unlabeled, but seemingly circa 1865, with west to the left) shows the area after Park Place was cut through the campus (center, below) between Church Street and College Place (and with Robinson Street still running to the west of College Place). It's clear that the new stretch of Park place is quite a bit narrower than the stretch of the original Park Place to the east, and the northern edge of the new street somewhat corresponds to the streetwall that existed when the Columbia College building with the cupola stood on the block. Apparently the lots / buildings shown on this map are what went up after the Columbia building with the cupola was razed:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/ColumbiaMap_1865_03a.jpg

All in all, the indication is that the building(s) in the photo stood on the north side of Park Place, covering what is now ~ 33 - 51 Park Place.

lofter1
June 8th, 2010, 12:55 PM
A description of Columbia College (http://www.archive.org/stream/newyorkasitisin102will#page/40/mode/2up/search/columbia) from "New-York as it is, in [1833-1835] 1837; containing a general description of the city" ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/ColumbiaInfo_1837_01b.jpg

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Statun-Ilandur
June 8th, 2010, 03:41 PM
I find it a bit ironic that in your “later map – circa 1865”(post #80) lots and or address designations 35-51 north side of street – Park Place would appear to conform in visual dimensions with original College Building circa 1857.




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4666952768_400dca185f_b.jpg

Borrowing photo from Derek2k3 post #20, and looking at your engraving “Columbia College 1850” post #66, I believe that the three buildings on 43-51 Park Place represent the majority of the base of the Columbia College building in terms of the lots plan that exists to this day.

It was not rocket science, that had carpenters, stonemasons chop the old college building up based on structural integrity. Original sale of pieces of College building could be reused immediately, or torn down and rebuilt according to needs, economic and asthetic. Strong party walls is probably the reason why the lots do not look symmetrical. Chunks of the building were probably sold off piecemeal.

The original building was a very symmetrical structure. I count thirty windows across ancient structure. 49-51 Park Place are the two end buildings probably faculty’s quarters (six windows wide).

45-47 Park Place are seven of eighteen windows of middle structure pulling back from forward building facade of end buildings such as 49-51.

43 Park Place suggests to me that the four windows under the Cupola got divided because there probably were brick or stone walls inside the symmetric exterior to hold up cupola, bells etc.

Not Rocket science. You chop up structure according to party walls and support walls.

49-51 Park Place – pieces of its front basement wall today is a highly likely candidate to be part of original front wall foundation of old Columbia College building.

lofter1
June 8th, 2010, 08:01 PM
... lots and or address designations 35-51 north side of street - Park Place would appear to conform in visual dimensions with original College Building circa 1857.

... I believe that the three buildings on 43-51 Park Place represent the majority of the base of the Columbia College building in terms of the lots plan that exists to this day.

... You chop up structure according to party walls and support walls.

49-51 Park Place – pieces of its front basement wall today is a highly likely candidate to be part of original front wall foundation of old Columbia College building.


I think you're on to something. I played around with the maps ...

1852 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=673656&imageID=1270007&total=17&num=0&word=barclay%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=2&e=w):

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/ColColl1852_Pan_01g.jpg

1865 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1785891&imageID=1648070&total=30&num=0&word=park%20place%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=9&e=w):

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Cordoba%20House%20Downtown%20NYC/ColColl1865_Pan_01f.jpg

Now I think we have to get a shovel ...

Statun-Ilandur
June 8th, 2010, 09:55 PM
Now I think we have to get a shovel ...

It's private property. Though it would be quite a gas if Columbia stills owns everything on Park Place. Not unlike how Rockefeller Center was built on leased Columbia land that was the second incarnation of Columbia College before it settled into Morningside Heights aroud 1910.

lofter1
June 8th, 2010, 11:44 PM
Info on the building seen in the 1852 map at upper left, at the SE corner of Murray Street / College Place; from Putnam's Monthly March 1854 (http://books.google.com/books?id=syDQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=mansion+%22College+place%22+%22new+York%22+%22M urray+street%22&source=bl&ots=qac55goLqi&sig=H9q-a3yAQGUMGolfPmek48Z_JAY&hl=en&ei=7gIPTLPJNoaglAe8zpFs&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=mansion%20%22College%20place%22%20%22new%20York% 22%20%22Murray%20street%22&f=false) ...


... the most elegant Grecian mansion in New-York is, without doubt, that in College Place, at the corner of Murray Street ... The semi-circular Corinthian portico of the house in College Place has a bold and graceful appearance, being ascended by a handsome flight of steps in front, to the level of the old College ground, on which it is built.

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lofter1
June 8th, 2010, 11:54 PM
The LPC Individual Landmark Designation Report [pdf] (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/reports/25parkplace.pdf) (March 13, 2007) for 23-25 Park Place, on the block just to the east of Church Street; this 5-story stone faced building was built in 1856-57 by Samuel Adams Warner, architect for the dry goods firm Lathrop, Ludington & Co.:


... a handsome example of the mid- nineteenth century double store-and-loft buildings that are found in the Tribeca area of Manhattan. Seven bays wide on Park Place and five bays wide on Murray Street, the five-story structure has similarly articulated unified facades influenced by the Italian Renaissance palazzo style prevalent in commercial architecture of the time.

The building at 45 Park Place, while equally grand & imposing -- and of similar age -- is not quite as refined as its neighbor to the east.

lofter1
June 11th, 2010, 11:44 AM
Meanwhile, in Staten Island ...

Heated Opposition to a Proposed Mosque

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/nyregion/11mosque.html?ref=nyregion)
By PAUL VITELLO
June 10, 2010

A church may be a church, and a temple a temple, but through the prism of emotion that still grips many New Yorkers almost a decade after 9/11, a mosque can apparently represent a lot of things.

In the last few months, Muslim groups have encountered unexpectedly intense opposition to their plans for opening mosques in Lower Manhattan, in Brooklyn and most recently in an empty convent on Staten Island.

Some opponents have cited traffic and parking concerns. But the objections have focused overwhelmingly on more intangible and volatile issues: fear of terrorism, distrust of Islam and a linkage of the two in opponents’ minds.

“Wouldn’t you agree that every terrorist, past and present, has come out of a mosque?” asked one woman who stood up Wednesday night during a civic association meeting on Staten Island to address representatives of a group that wants to convert a Roman Catholic convent into a mosque in the Midland Beach neighborhood.

“No,” began Ayman Hammous, president of the Staten Island branch of the group, the Muslim American Society — though the rest of his answer was drowned out by catcalls and boos from among the 400 people who packed the gymnasium of a community center.

Yasmin Ammirato, president of the Midland Beach Civic Association, which organized the meeting in an effort to dispel tensions, bellowed into her portable microphone in the first of many efforts to keep control during the subsequent three hours: “Excuse me! This is a civic association meeting! Everybody have a little respect!” ...

... The tenor of the inquiry became so fraught that the meeting eventually collapsed in shouting around 11 p.m., prompting the police and security guards to ask everyone to leave.

But just 20 minutes earlier, as Bill Finnegan stood at the microphone, came the meeting’s single moment of hushed silence. Mr. Finnegan said he was a Marine lance corporal, home from Afghanistan, where he had worked as a mediator with warring tribes.

After the sustained standing ovation that followed his introduction, he turned to the Muslims on the panel: “My question to you is, will you work to form a cohesive bond with the people of this community?” The men said yes.

Then he turned to the crowd. “And will you work to form a cohesive bond with these people — your new neighbors?”

The crowd erupted in boos. “No!” someone shouted.

Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

Statun-Ilandur
June 11th, 2010, 12:31 PM
Another slice of the same pie from Wednesday night.

Staten Island convent sale, proposed Midland Beach mosque, the ultimate hot potato

Staten Island Advance (http://www.silive.com/eastshore/index.ssf/2010/06/staten_island_convent_sale_the.html)– June 11, 2010

By Ami Padnani


STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- On the surface, it might be just another property sale.

But the proposal by St. Margaret Mary R.C. Church in Midland Beach to sell its former convent to the Muslim American Society, which would convert it to a mosque, has inspired fear and loathing and is fraught with the heaviest of baggage: Issues of religion, terrorism and First Amendment rights.

And it has local politicians scrambling for safe ground.

When interviewed by the Advance earlier today, officials tiptoed around the issues. Though they were as impassioned as their constituents, they refrained from choosing a side.

Rather than face the crowd, most sent representatives to the tense meeting Wednesday night at the Olympia Activity Center, where hundreds of people, including area residents and members of the Muslim community, used the opportunity to air their frustrations.

The meeting, organized by the Midland Beach Civic Association, was intended to be a forum for both parties to discuss the proposal and its potential impacts on the community.

“I didn’t think it was going to be a productive discussion, and, from what my representative was texting to me as it dissolved, I was right,” said City Councilman James Oddo (R-Mid-Island/Brooklyn). “I wasn’t surprised by the circumstances although I was dismayed.”

Oddo said people have very genuine concerns and were right to ask the questions they felt needed to be asked, but that it quickly got out of hand when people began booing and cursing at MAS (Muslim American Society), the civic association and each other. …

What further fueled the crowd was that the Archdiocese of New York did not send someone to address neighbors’ concerns. …

Yasmin Ammirato, the president of the civic association, said she requested the Archdiocese’s presence numerous times. …

“They’re blatantly lying,” she said. “I guess they don’t want to be put on the spot. It’s just a cop-out, just like Father [Keith] Fennessy did when he packed up and left this on our laps.”

State Sen. Andrew Lanza (R-Staten Island) said Wednesday’s night’s focus should have been more on the land-use issues, such as traffic and parking, and that the tone should have been less accusatory. He added that a residential developer, who would have put just two or three houses on the property, would have put less strain on the area….

Still, if the deal went through, Ms. Hyer-Spencer said she was confident the residents and MAS would eventually mesh. She said she’s already seen it happen in Bay Ridge, where a mosque was built about seven years ago. Though it took about five years, the clashing communities finally appear to be getting along.

“When I started seeing people in the street going to the same bakery, cleaners, sitting in the same diner, eating next to one another, talking to one another — anecdotally, when I saw that, I knew we were going to be okay,” she said.

Fabrizio
June 11th, 2010, 01:08 PM
A local wcbstv report:
Muslim American Society Questioned Over Mosque

A confrontational hearing on Staten Island over a proposed mosque touched off so much emotion that it's prompted a closer look at the group that wants to build it: the Muslim American Society.

Thursday night at a packed hearing, a proposal to build a mosque on Staten Island ran into some heated opposition.

The group that wants to build a mosque and community center on what had been a Catholic convent is the Muslim American Society. Founded in Virginia in 1993, they have built mosques and community centers in the Bath Beach section of Brooklyn, they say, to promote understanding. One of the people at the hearing challenged the leader of the mosque, Mohamed Sadeia, to denounce Hamas and Hezbollah:

Those in attendance felt Sadeia twice avoided a direct answer, until he finally spoke out against terrorism generally.

"There is no relationship, as we stand today, between MAS, the Muslim American Society, and any foreign entity," Sadeia said.

While the Muslim American Society is not on any government list of terrorist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah are. Annemarie McAvoy, a former federal prosecutor, saw a video on the Internet, like many people at Wednesday night's meeting, which shows a current director of the Muslim American Society eight years ago cheering at a Washington rally when the crowd is asked, "Who supports Hamas?" and then "Who supports Hezbollah?"

Sadeia said that man's eight-year-old opinion did not speak for his group, but strong doubts about the Muslim American Society remain:

"A couple of the founders apparently are members of the Muslim Brotherhood," said McAvoy. "Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood has a lot of ties to Muslim extremists

CBS 2 made repeated efforts to interview Sadeia on Thursday or some other leader from the Muslim American Society, but messages were not answered. After facing such strong opposition Wednesday night, it is not clear if the group still plans to build the mosque.

http://wcbstv.com/local/staten.island.mosque.2.1745014.html

------

This from the Wikipedia entry on the Muslim American Society:

"The Muslim American Society (MAS) is a nonprofit organization founded in 1993 and headquartered in Falls Church, Virginia, that describes itself as an Islamic revival and reform movement. Its founding member were mainly foreign students of Arab descent."

"It was created by the Muslim Brotherhood, after a debate among Muslim Brotherhood members in the U.S. about whether to remain underground, or to have a public face.The Moslem Brotherhood was created in Egypt in 1928, and is committed to the globalization of Islam by means of social engineering and violent jihad."

"Both Mohammed Mahdi Akef, now the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide, and Ahmed Elkadi, then the leader of the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood, were pivotal in the founding of the MAS. The new organization instructed its members to evade questions about the group's ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and to define jihad as a "divine legal right" of Muslims to be used for defense and the spread of Islam."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_American_Society

------

And here is a long but enlightening article from the Chicago Tribune about the Islamic Brotherhood which now operates under the name : Muslim American Society:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/chi-0409190261sep19,0,3008717.story?page=1

lbjefferies
June 11th, 2010, 01:19 PM
These are the types of threads that keep me coming back to wiredny. Very informative all around.

Thanks

Fabrizio
June 11th, 2010, 03:30 PM
A page from the Muslim American Society website: "Questions and Answers about MAS Methodology"

http://maschicago.org/NewsArticles/tabid/131/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1/QUESTIONS-ANSWERS-ABOUT-MAS-METHODOLOGY.aspx

And remember the Muslim American Society mission statement:

"I only desire your betterment to the best of my power"



(http://maschicago.org/DesktopModules/DnnForge%20-%20NewsArticles/Print.aspx?tabid=131&tabmoduleid=584&articleId=1&moduleId=592&PortalID=0)

lofter1
June 11th, 2010, 05:56 PM
Troubling ideology, whether coming from this group or any other fundamentalist organization that believes their way = the only way. Talk to me if you like, but do NOT proselytize -- or Adios & see ya later ...

Membership in MAS? (http://maschicago.org/NewsArticles/tabid/131/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1/QUESTIONS-ANSWERS-ABOUT-MAS-METHODOLOGY.aspx)

MAS members are American Muslims who are striving to learn/understand, apply, spread, and advocate Islam and its values, solutions and systems in the service of the common good. We believe in the individual and collective obligation of Dawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah) and enjoining good and forbidding evil ...

[...]

- Advocating Islam: we also believe in the obligation of enjoining good and forbidding evil (Islah), and therefore contributing to a better society and better world. This is because we believe that Islam serves the best interests of all people in this life and in the hereafter. So, whatever Allah the All-knowing and the All-Wise has prescribed is beneficial and whatever He has forbidden is harmful. And there is no way out of the current mess in the world, except through Islam and its values, solutions and systems.

MidtownGuy
June 11th, 2010, 05:59 PM
MAS- are they affiliated with the two organizations that will be running Cordoba House?

lofter1
June 11th, 2010, 06:54 PM
MAS is the group buying (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23759&p=327802&viewfull=1#post327802) the Staten Island property:


... the proposal by St. Margaret Mary R.C. Church in Midland Beach to sell its former convent to the Muslim American Society ...

The group behind the Cordoba House is the Cordoba Initiative, which by all indications has no connection whatsoever to MAS as shown in the following article (although a third mosque planned for Sheepshead Bay is backed by MAS) ...

A Tale of Two Mosques

WNYC (http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/155903)
by Arun Venugopal
June 10, 2010

NEW YORK, NY June 10, 2010 —The idea of a "mega mosque," as its called by opponents, mere steps from Ground Zero, is generating national attention. For opponents like Herb London of the Washington, D.C.-based Hudson Institute, this is about defining the future of the country.

"We have a responsibility to make sure that that mosque is not constructed," he said during the Ground Zero protest, a few days ago. "Not in my neighborhood, not in my town, not in New York, not in America. We are against that mosque!"

But the local community board as well as New York City's leading politicians support the project. Opponents say the fight's not over yet. Many, like Mike Burke, the brother of a firefighter who died on 9/11, feel the Islamic Center is an unnecessary provocation. Burke and others are questioning the integrity of the Cordoba Initiative, which is behind the project.

"If they were to turn up a so-called smoking gun and if they were in fact linked to the terrorist groups, I'm sure that would stop everything," he said, while standing next to Ground Zero. "I wouldn't say we're searching for that necessarily. You just want to make sure that's not so. Because other things have turned up."

Mark Costello was part of the majority at Community Board 1 that voted for the project. Although he's a devout Catholic, he regularly visited the Cordoba Initiative's book store in Tribeca after 9/11.

"If you go in that book store you'll see all kinds of disturbing literature," he said, with a touch of sarcasm, "like Letters from a Birmingham Jail, by Dr King. You'll see the writings of Mohandas Gandhi, you'll see Rumi and Omar Khayyam."

Costello says he has no argument for those who think a mosque near Ground Zero is in poor taste. But he can speak to another concern -- that there's something questionable about the Cordoba Initiative. Costello was a federal prosecutor, and made inquiries to his friends in law enforcement.

"I was laughed at," he said. "This Cordoba House does work with the Department of State. They're very very well known. I felt a little bit like I was asking, Should we be afraid of the Kiwanis Club or the League of Women Voters."

The leader of the Cordoba Initiative is Imam Feisal Rauf, who practices Sufism, a spiritual branch of Islam.

"People have said 'Where is the voice of the moderates, where are the moderates, when do we hear them?'" he said. "Well, here we are. We are the moderates, we are the anti-terrorists."

Rauf thinks the Islamic center would help address a problem that sometimes happens in the West -- the act of integrating young Muslims into the broader culture.

"We need to develop in this country a sense of who we are as American Muslims," said Rauf. "Not to be just pockets of immigrant Muslims, which generally happens."

Well before the furor in lower Manhattan, another one had erupted in Brooklyn. There, a community of Muslims is planning a mosque in Sheepshead Bay. In many ways, the two controversies are completely different. One is about a place that many define as sacred: the World Trade Center. The other is a more conventional, Not In My Backyard issue. It's about neighborhood traffic, noise and changing demographics.

This mosque would be located on a small, empty plot of land, set among a couple houses and co-op buildings. Ibrahim Anse is the mosque's architect. He moved to Brooklyn 10 years ago, from Yemen. Anse explains there are 100 to 150 Muslim families in the neighborhood, and they need a place to pray. He says the four-story facility would also have afterschool services for kids.

"We actually welcome anybody else, such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, karate, any activity for the youth. We welcome anybody else who's non-Muslim as well."

But that interfaith outreach hasn't gotten off the ground yet, due to what Anse calls hatred and racism. Some of the criticism has come from real estate agents, who say property values will dip if a mosque gets built in Sheepshead Bay. Much of it, however, has come from neighbors, like Alex Tenenbaum of the group Bay People.

According to Tenenbaum, a mosque is bound to attract drivers from outside the neighborhood who would crowd out local residents. And while proponents of the mosque insist they won't broadcast their call to prayer outside, Alex still worries about noise. And he produces photos showing how worshippers at other mosques in Brooklyn tend to overflow onto the sidewalk. He says his concerns are practical, and that he's not the bigot that proponents say he is.

"They don't want to admit that that could be a nuisance for neighbors," he says. "They're saying, 'Oh, you're just an Islamophobe.' Which is not the case. I just don't want a crowd of people under my bedroom window."

As with the Ground Zero mosque, some of Alex's allies have been looking for their own smoking gun concerning the group building the mosque. That organization, the Muslim American Society, originally stemmed from the Muslim Brotherhood, which also spawned Hamas.

The connection has given pause to even some neutral observers. But to Theresa Scavo, the no-nonsense head of Community Board 15, it's completely irrelevant.

"If there is evil wrong with certain people in a certain group that doesn't mean the entire group is affiliated," said Scavo, peering over her glasses. "[Or] that you can just conglomerate everybody together and just say, 'Oh well, that faction has issues, so that means everybody has issues in that group.' Come on, that's old-time thinking, it's not today -- not 21st century today."

She says the opposition to the mosque has been driven entirely by fear-mongering and fear of Muslims, but that opponents occasionally shift to more polite language to cover their tracks. Scavo also dismisses the concerns about noise coming from the mosque, saying she's reassured by the mosque's promise not to broadcast its prayer. And she thinks a mosque catering to locals would encourage most of them to walk instead of drive there. The mosque would be one of 77 religious institutions in the district, and she says all of them compete for parking spaces, and most of them make noise now and then.

"It's a lot about possession, and 'This is my neighborhood,' and 'We were here first,'" she said. "And 'We don't welcome outsiders.' It's not the American way, or the New York way. Everyone is welcome."

Today an interfaith group of Brooklynites -- Muslim, Jewish, Christian and other -- are holding their annual Peace Walk, and plan to direct it to the site of the mosque. They say they've reached out to people who oppose the mosque. But opponents say that there's no war, so there's no need for a Peace Walk.

© 2010 WNYC Radio

Fabrizio
June 11th, 2010, 07:14 PM
Let's see.... the Muslim American Society, a political/fascist organization (see the Chicago Tribune article, see their own website) is building the Mosque in Sheepsheadbay but:

"That organization, the Muslim American Society, originally stemmed from the Muslim Brotherhood, which also spawned Hamas."

"The connection has given pause to even some neutral observers. But to Theresa Scavo, the no-nonsense head of Community Board 15, it's completely irrelevant."

"If there is evil wrong with certain people in a certain group that doesn't mean the entire group is affiliated," said Scavo, peering over her glasses. "[Or] that you can just conglomerate everybody together and just say, 'Oh well, that faction has issues, so that means everybody has issues in that group.' Come on, that's old-time thinking, it's not today -- not 21st century today."

"She says the opposition to the mosque has been driven entirely by fear-mongering and fear of Muslims. "

Gotta laugh.

ablarc
June 11th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Hermann Goering and Herbert von Karajan were both card-carrying members of a fraternal group with an agenda.

Sheer coincidence and completely irrelevant; there's no real proof that they were equally committed to the agenda.

lofter1
June 11th, 2010, 08:41 PM
Robert W. Welch, Jr. and Martin Luther King, Jr., both originally Baptists, worshipped the same Son of God.

That means nothing in the long run.

Fabrizio
June 12th, 2010, 01:44 AM
So let's cross our fingers and hope for the best.

My concern would be not so much for the members of the congregation, but for the organization itself, the people who are running it, funding it, etc.

Statun-Ilandur
June 12th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Reading the various things being put out here, I go back to the concept of Cordoba House as a community center. I am reminded of the settlement movement, a secular movement in the 19th century both in England and the United States.

Having done some research on Islam, the Mosque as the center of a community is more secular a building than the west would treat a church as sacred. A church might have a community center but rarely do you see children in churches doing homework or reading, memorizing the bible.

The Mosque as community center and as planned in Cordoba House sounds more like an old-fashioned settlement house where someone like Eleanor Roosevelt did her Christian charity and taught some classes to the poor in a secular settlement house.

As the name suggests, in the American model, a settlement house that taught English, civics, hygiene and provided a gymnasium in the midst of crowded tenements, it, as a community center was also like an assimilation center for immigrants to ease into the American culture.

Cordoba house, especially for a fundamentalist or a Sufi specialty branch of study is perhaps a settlement house of sorts. The difference is that Islam is the center of community, secular like, structure?

Settlement houses went out of existence with the social safety net of government established and expanded over the decades. I have often thought that as in the case of influx of Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal, that an old-fashioned concept of a settlement house teaching English and American customs might be an old idea that would ease some tensions between the existing culture and the influx of a foreign culture(s).

ablarc
June 12th, 2010, 10:27 AM
My concern would be not so much for the members of the congregation, but for the organization itself, the people who are running it, funding it, etc.
Fabrizio, my comment in post#96 was meant ironically. Of course von Karajan was a Nazi --as long as the party was alive and good for his future and career.

HoveringCheesecake
June 12th, 2010, 11:29 AM
I'd prefer that they keep the existing building if at all possible.

infoshare
June 12th, 2010, 11:29 AM
Fabrizio, my comment in post#96 was meant ironically.

How could the blatant irony of that remark be lost on anyone - let alone two forum vets. Jaw dropping. That would never happen over at archboston.org (http://archboston.com/) (LOL)

http://archboston.com/

ablarc
June 12th, 2010, 12:29 PM
I gotta learn to include emoticons (seems a little tacky, though).

lofter1
June 12th, 2010, 07:08 PM
Jaw dropping.


Hope you've recovered from your injury. :p

infoshare
June 12th, 2010, 08:08 PM
http://alanhandle.com/surprise.jpg

ZippyTheChimp
June 12th, 2010, 10:47 PM
The Sufi mosque is on West Broadway between Tribeca Park and White St. There is also a bookstore on West Broadway just south of White St.

They've been there since the mid 80s, moving from Soho.

1997 NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/03/nyregion/sufi-muslims-search-for-the-divine-on-lower-broadway.html)

Now ironic given present events, the existence of the mosque was used by nearby residents to get the SLA to deny a liquor license (http://www.tribecatrib.com/newsfeb06/liquorstore.htm) to the Liquor Store Bar a few doors away.

lofter1
June 20th, 2010, 06:27 PM
Meanwhile, in Staten Island ...

Heated Opposition to a Proposed Mosque



A Marine, a Mosque, a Question

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/nyregion/20about.html?ref=nyregion)
By JIM DWYER
June 18, 2010

A few hours after the town hall meeting began, deep into the question-and-answer portion, Bill Finnegan lined up for a turn at the microphone. He had not come with any intention to speak, but as the evening dragged on, he changed his mind.

A Muslim group had made a deal to buy an empty convent from the Catholic parish of St. Margaret Mary in the Midland Beach section of Staten Island and open a mosque. A civic association organized a meeting with representatives of the group, the Muslim American Society, on the evening of June 9. Mr. Finnegan had gone, he said later, to “see what all the hoopla was about.”

There were many statements from the audience dressed up as questions to the Muslim representatives: Were any parts of the Koran incorrect? Would they denounce Hamas and Hezbollah, and wasn’t it true that they were connected to those groups? Didn’t all terrorists come out of mosques?

Mr. Finnegan, 25, began by introducing himself. “I said, ‘My name is Bill Finnegan, and I’m a United States Marine recently returned from Afghanistan,’ ” he said.

Cheers rang out. He turned to the representatives of the Muslim group, seated at a table in the front.

“My question to you is, will you work to form a cohesive bond with the people of this community?” he asked.

The men said yes.

Mr. Finnegan then faced the audience. “And will you work to form a cohesive bond with these people — your new neighbors?” he asked.

The crowd booed. A voice called out: “No!”

Message delivered. On Thursday, a week after the town hall meeting, the Rev. Keith Fennessy, the pastor of the parish, said he wanted to pull out of the deal because “the contemplated sale would not serve the needs of the parish.”

It is difficult in 2010 to imagine that a new church or synagogue would face the same opposition as the mosque proposed for Staten Island, or another one in Lower Manhattan. Yet such antagonism has a long history in New York. In the 19th century, early Catholic parishes in Manhattan built their churches to be inconspicuous, adopting the architectural style of banks so they would blend into a society that had few Catholics and little tolerance for them.

“I think it’s hard for people to remember just how virulent, deep-seated and widespread anti-Catholicism was in America,” said the novelist Peter Quinn, who has studied the emergence of the Catholic Church in New York.

“It seems to me that American Muslims are now being put in the position once primarily reserved for American Catholics. They are all presumed guilty of religious fanaticism and antidemocratic values until proven otherwise.”

The cartoonist Thomas Nast is remembered for his pungent images of Tammany Hall corruption, and less so for his fashionable bigotry: he depicted Irish immigrants as apes and Catholic bishops as an invading army of crocodiles. During the early years of the 20th century, the ideological engine of the Ku Klux Klan was driven not only by its hostility to African-Americans, but also by its detestation of Catholics and immigrants.

For all the blood-soaked history of religion, it is not without episodes of reconciliation: in “The Saint and the Sultan,” the journalist Paul Moses pieces together a vivid, remarkable encounter during the Fifth Crusade between Francis of Assisi, the Italian Christian friar, and Sultan al-Kamil, a Sunni leader in Egypt.

That is a long way from Staten Island, where Mr. Finnegan grew up and ran track. After three years of college, he enlisted in the Marines, and he spent six months in Afghanistan last year in Helmand Province.

“It is very tribal — family, tribes, religion,” Mr. Finnegan said. “We’d get the townspeople to address one another and get things in motion. People actually liked that a lot.”

He had gone to the town hall meeting with no view about the sale of the convent to the Muslim group.

“I could care less,” Mr. Finnegan said. “If they need it and want it and it was going to help the community, and they would work together, fine. If it’s not needed and not wanted, and it’s going to be put there, that’s not good for anybody. Not the community, not the members of the mosque.”

He was not surprised, he said, by the negative response to his question.

“They were not booing at me,” he said. “They just said ‘no’ when I asked if they would work with members of the mosque.”

It was just information, said Mr. Finnegan, who finished his service with the Marines in April. They did not want the mosque.

“My initial thought was to ask why,” he said. “Then I thought, I’m not here to moderate.”

Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

lofter1
June 23rd, 2010, 09:57 AM
Perhaps these events are what lead to the change of minds, as chronicled below:

WTC Mosque Opponents Made Threatening Phone Calls to Community Board (http://www.dnainfo.com/20100616/manhattan/wtc-mosque-opponents-made-threatening-phone-calls-community-board-1)

*

Downtown Community Board May Withdraw Support of Ground Zero Mosque

Several members said the community board never should have taken a position on the $100 million Cordoba House.

DNAinfo (http://www.dnainfo.com/20100623/manhattan/downtown-community-board-may-withdraw-support-of-ground-zero-mosque)
By Julie Shapiro
DNAinfo Reporter/Producer
June 23, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — Community Board 1 may withdraw its support of a mosque and community center near Ground Zero.

After an emotional four-hour meeting that drew hundreds of people last month, the community board passed a carefully worded resolution that praised the 13-story, $100 million project but took no formal position on the religious aspects.

However, at least a few board members see the religious and secular pieces of the center as inextricable, and they believe the board should not have taken any position at all.

“The language was misleading and disingenuous,” said Allan Tannenbaum, a board member and TriBeCa resident, as he urged the board to rescind its previous resolution Tuesday night. “A mosque is integral to what [they] want to build there…. We have to take this back.”

All board members hoped to avoid a meeting as packed and chaotic as the one last month, which attracted hundreds of angry protesters. (DNAinfo/Josh Williams)
While several board members said they agreed with Tannenbaum and wished the board had not taken a position, many others saw no reason to reopen such a contentious topic.

“I thought we were done with this,” said Bob Townley, a board member and Battery Park City resident. He called the mosque issue “a recurring nightmare.”

At Tuesday night’s monthly board meeting, Tannenbaum introduced a new resolution declaring the board’s neutrality on the mosque and community center. But just as the discussion was beginning, board Chairwoman Julie Menin said the board could not vote on the resolution because the topic was not on the agenda.

The resolution’s proponents purposely did not put it on the agenda because they did not want to attract the large crowd of belligerent advocates who attended last month’s meeting.

Menin said any discussion would have to take place at the board’s Financial District Committee, which next meets on Wed., July 7. But she and other board leaders have not yet decided whether the mosque will appear on the committee’s agenda.

Ro Sheffe, chairman of the Financial District Committee, said after Tuesday’s meeting that the board has already extensively debated the issue, and it would be “inappropriate” to revisit it.

“We have made a decision,” Sheffe said, “and now it’s time to move on.”

Copyright © 2009 - 2010 Digital Network Associates dba DNAinfo.com

ZippyTheChimp
June 23rd, 2010, 11:10 AM
While several board members said they agreed with Tannenbaum and wished the board had not taken a position, many others saw no reason to reopen such a contentious topic.

The resolution’s proponents purposely did not put it on the agenda because they did not want to attract the large crowd of belligerent advocates who attended last month’s meeting.Unlike the situation in Staten Island, this is a non-issue within the neighborhoods. It is far down the list of items like the Winter Garden staircase, and the reconstruction of Chambers St.

Mostly outside agitation by people who had no idea where Park Pl is.

lofter1
June 23rd, 2010, 11:31 AM
And those outsiders seem intent on intimidating others who don't share their view, hence some cold feet at CB1.

Ironic.

londonlawyer
June 23rd, 2010, 11:40 AM
I hope that this mosque gets blocked and that the buildings are landmarked so that someone else can't come in and raze them.

BrooklynRider
June 23rd, 2010, 04:43 PM
It's the same angry crowd that held the WTC rebuilding hostage for years. This is not the WTC site. It is akin to the issues that arose when people thought that Liebskind's (who?) masterplan dictated the actual design of WTC buildings.

Statun-Ilandur
June 24th, 2010, 09:34 AM
A dumb question? If this $100 million community center has no grand mosque attached, where in the WTC vacinity is a lot big enough to build? What would it cost to buy and tear down 100 Church St etc?

ZippyTheChimp
June 24th, 2010, 10:13 AM
100 Church St is a big piece of property.

The only lot I can think of that may be big enough is 111 Washington St (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14466&page=6&highlight=111+washington). It would cost a lot.

lofter1
June 24th, 2010, 11:43 AM
100 Church covers an entire block; Gross Square Feet: 918,240

The site has a much clearer view of the WTC than the Park Place lots (so building a similar plan there would drive the anti-Cordoba-ists into a frenzy).

The last time 100 Church was sold (http://m.nyc.everyblock.com/property-sales/by-date/2010/1/20/2919672/) was in January 2010; the price: $82,411,552

Statun-Ilandur
June 24th, 2010, 01:10 PM
I was slightly off in where I was thinking of a building on Church Street. Church is the main drag going past WTC. I think there are two office buildings, 110 ? Church that might be a logical buy on the same block as Cordoba House. Perhaps in a real life scenario, and from an observation deck on 1 WTC perhaps it is important to look down instead of looking up to make some obscure POV or political statement.

lofter1
June 24th, 2010, 01:49 PM
110 Church (http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&lng=3&id=110churchstreet-newyorkcity-ny-usa) is also a pretty large building.

It's also known as 50 Murray Street (http://www.cityrealty.com/new-york-city/apartment/rentals/for-rent/50-murray-street/22624) and 33 Park Place (in 2003, the owner combined 110 & 120 Church (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?requestid=3&passjobnumber=102896494&passdocnumber=01) into one building); it's now a high end residential rental (http://www.50murray.com/) building from the World-Wide Group. DOF shows a 2007 Agreement (http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2007073100850010) for the building totalling $166,441,968. Seems it's been fully re-purposed and not available within the price range that Cordoba wants to spend.

About 50 Murray Street


This 22-story building was originally erected in 1964 as an office building designed Robert L. Bien.

In was converted about four decades later by the World-Wide Group, which is headed by Victor Elmaleh, to a rental apartment building with 398 units, designed by Meltzer/Mandl Architects.

The building was originally known as 110 Church Street and is known known as 50 Murray Street. it is owned by the Sapir Organization.

The building has a concierge, a doorman, valet service, a garage, a media room, a game room, a children's playroom, a fitness center, a basketball half-court, a roof terrace, a bamboo garden and laundries on each floor.

It is convenient to Ground Zero and the Financial District and there is good public transportation.

Statun-Ilandur
June 24th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Is 53 Park Place still apartment rentals or has it gone condo?

lofter1
June 26th, 2010, 10:22 AM
LPC has scheduled a Public Hearing for the site on July 13, 2010 @ ~ 2PM (Calendar [pdf] (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/calendar/07_13_10.pdf)):

45-47 Park Place Building

Borough of Manhattan Built: 1857-58 Style: Italian Renaissance Palazzo

Significant Alterations: Replacement of storefront infill; installation of fire escape

Previous Actions: Heard on September 19, 1989

Completed in 1857-58, this five-story store-and-loft building is a fine example of the Italian Renaissance- inspired palazzi that flourished from the 1850s through the 1870s in the former textile and dry-goods district on and around Broadway, near City Hall Park. It was constructed for Paul Spofford and Thomas Tileston, proprietors of one of the city’s most prominent shipping firms.

By drawing upon the architectural vocabulary of the Italian Renaissance palazzo, the builders of mercantile structures like 45-47 Park Place sought to project an image of prestige and economic power. This building retains its original ground-floor Corinthian colonnade cast by Daniel D. Badger & Company; its stone-faced upper floors appear much as they did when the building opened, featuring molded window surrounds, molded projecting lintels, bracketed sills, and second-floor balconets with faux turned balusters. Flanking the building’s simple, continuous cornice are two scrolled brackets. Over its 150 years, 45-47 Park Place has seen few alterations other than the replacement of its storefront infill and the installation of a metal fire escape, which probably dates from the early 20th century. It retains many of its historic, likely original, two-over-two double-hung windows, although their glazing has been painted.

ZippyTheChimp
June 26th, 2010, 10:26 AM
My guess is it's going to be landmarked.

lofter1
June 26th, 2010, 10:44 AM
Which ^ would not preclude the owner from applying to LPC for additions on top (such applications are granted right and left by LPC) although not to the height as proposed.

LPC has no jurisdiction over uses of the property.

lofter1
June 28th, 2010, 06:17 PM
Seven Protesters Turn Out at Demonstration Against Ground Zero Mosque

The turnout will likely be much larger when a city agency holds a hearing on the mosque plans July 13.

DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100625/manhattan/seven-protesters-turn-out-at-demonstration-against-ground-zero-mosque)
By Julie Shapiro
June 25, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — More reporters than protesters showed up Friday for a demonstration against a plan to build a mosque near Ground Zero.

The demonstration, which drew seven protesters, coincided with the mosque’s weekly services on Park Place, where Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf hopes to build a new 13-story religious and community center.

The protesters had a bit of trouble finding each other on lower Manhattan’s crowded streets — “This is no way to organize a demonstration,” one middle-aged woman muttered as she looked for her brethren — but soon they were passing out bold-faced flyers and waving their red, white and blue banners.

“We’re not opposing Muslims building houses of worship,” said Leonard Volodarsky, 60, an Upper East Side resident who helped organize the protest through ACT! for America. “We’re opposing them building one right here.”

Most of the Muslims on their way to services walked past without stopping, but some paused to read the banners and flyers.

“They’re denigrating the Muslim people,” said Goumballa Mbaye, 60, a Harlem resident and congregant of the mosque. “You can be a Muslim and have a good heart. Being Muslim, you’re not supposed to be racist. You’re not supposed to kill nobody.”

While there is little the demonstrators can do to stop the mosque, the project does have to clear one city hurdle. The Landmarks Preservation Commission will hold a hearing next month to consider landmarking 45-47 Park Place, the historic building that Imam Rauf plans to demolish.

That hearing is scheduled for Tues., July 13 at 2 p.m., although the venue has not been decided, an LPC spokeswoman said Friday.

Copyright © 2009 - 2010 Digital Network Associates dba DNAinfo.com

lofter1
July 1st, 2010, 11:55 AM
Manhattanites Support Mosque Near Ground Zero, Poll Finds

Manhattanites support a proposed Ground Zero mosque, but the outer boroughs oppose it, according to a poll.

DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100701/manhattan/manhattanites-support-mosque-near-ground-zero-poll-finds)
By Julie Shapiro
DNAinfo Reporter/Producer
July 1, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — Manhattan voters support plans for mosque near Ground Zero, though residents of the outer boroughs are opposed, a new poll found.

The Quinnipiac University poll, released Thursday morning, found that 46 percent of Manhattanites support the 13-story mosque and community center, called Cordoba House. Thirty-six percent of Manhattan voters oppose the proposal and 18 percent are undecided.

Still, New Yorkers as a whole weighed in against the mosque, with 52 percent opposing the plans and just 31 percent supporting the project. The strongest opposition came from Staten Island, where 73 percent opposed the mosque compared to 14 percent who supported it.

“Liberal Manhattan accepts the mosque and trusts Islam,” Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute, said in a statement. “Staten Island, where there's controversy about another proposed mosque, is more skeptical."

Carroll said Manhattan always polls more "true-blue Democrat" than the rest of the city, while opinions on Staten Island tend to align with the country as a whole.

"Manhattan tends to be much more easygoing, more liberal," Carroll said. "Manhattan is the secular humanist capital of the world."

The poll also delved into respondents’ attitude toward Islam.

Forty-four percent of New Yorkers said they had a generally favorable opinion of Islam, while 28 percent said they did not and another 28 percent were undecided.
Those with a favorable opinion of Islam support the mosque 54 percent to 30 percent, while those with an unfavorable opinion oppose it 86 percent to 7 percent.

Fifty-six percent of the voters surveyed said they personally know a Muslim, and while that made them more likely to say Islam is a peaceful religion, they were still divided on the mosque, with 41 percent supporting it and 43 percent opposed.

The opposition to the mosque was similar across race and religious lines, with 66 percent of both Jews and white Catholics against the mosque, and 46 percent of white Protestants against it.

Sixty percent of Hispanic voters oppose the mosque, compared to just 45 percent of black voters. White voters fall in the middle, with 56 percent opposition.

Those who were surveyed were evenly split between saying the mosque would “foster understanding and teach people that not all Muslims are terrorists,” and saying the mosque “is an insult to the memory and families of 9/11 victims.”

Quinnipiac surveyed 1,183 city voters between June 21 and June 28. The poll has a margin of error of 2.9 percentage points.

Copyright © 2009 - 2010 Digital Network Associates dba DNAinfo.com

lofter1
July 2nd, 2010, 12:12 PM
Pamela Geller and the anti-mosque crew (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/new-york-observer-on-ground-zero-mosque-hearings-july-13.html) are prepping themselves for LPC:


At this stage, it is a landmarks issue. The 152-year-old Burlington Coat Factory building should be landmarked, as it is part of historic New York (and it is a war memorial).

Any Atlas historians, librarians and old New York experts who can help research and/or provide details of the important history of this great old building would be enormously helpful. In early New York, most of the action was downtown (Manhattan was once the capital of the nation, for goodness sake). There must be a rich and wonderful history to the Burlington Building, 45 Park Place.

Here is the New York Observer's take on the Islamic mega mosque and the upcoming landmarks hearings ........keeping it classy, NYO. As if.........a triumphal mosque at the cemetery that is Ground Zero is a good idea.

City to Host Controversial Ground Zero Mosque Hearings July 13

NY OBSERVER (http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/city-host-controversial-ground-zero-mosque-hearings-larger-venue-accomodate-angry-crow)
By Dana Rubinstein
July 1, 201

Let the shit-show begin. The city has scheduled hearings for a controversial proposed mosque near ground zero at Hunter College on July 13. The Landmarks Preservation Commission—which must approve the demolition of an existing building at 45 Park Place to make way for the 13-story Cordoba House, a mosque and Muslim community center that's intended to foster interdenominational understanding—has scheduled the hearing for 2 p.m. at Hunter College, in a room that can accomodate up to 300 people. The Commission's on-site hall can fit up to 60.

In other words, the Commission is expecting a large, and angry, crowd. The city has good reason.

On June 6, more than 1,000 people protested the mosque planned for a site two blocks from ground zero bearing signs reading, "No 9/11 Mega Mosque (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/06/07/2010-06-07_1000_protest_islamic_center_plan.html)." The movement against the mosque is being stoked by Pamela Geller, of the group Stop Islamization of America. Ms. Geller was also active in opposing the creation (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/07/kgia-ny-public-.html) of the city's first Arabic language charter school in Brooklyn.

The opposition to the community center—described by its creators as akin to the 92nd Street Y—is unnervingly similar to the vitriol that's greeted plans for new mosques in Sheepshead Bay (http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/sheepshead-bay-residents-protest-mosque-employ-virulently-racist-rhetoric?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=DT) and Staten Island (http://www.silive.com/eastshore/index.ssf/2010/06/proposed_midland_beach_mosque.html), and is reminiscent of the anti-Muslim fervor following 9-11.

A Quinnipiac University poll (http://www.silive.com/eastshore/index.ssf/2010/06/proposed_midland_beach_mosque.html) released today revealed that 52 percent of voters in the city don't believe the mosque should be built near ground zero.

lofter1
July 2nd, 2010, 12:15 PM
Note that the Observer article includes a photo (http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/city-host-controversial-ground-zero-mosque-hearings-larger-venue-accomodate-angry-crow) of the structure at 49-51 Park Place, a portion of the Cordoba parcel but NOT the building at 45-47 Park Place that's on the LPC calendar.

Maybe that will throw off some folks :cool:

lofter1
July 4th, 2010, 02:07 PM
From the LPC Calendar (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/calendar/07_13_10.pdf) for July 13:


Please note that the Public Hearing for 45-47 Park Place application will take place at 904 Lexington Avenue, in the Lecture Hall 714 of Hunter College on the 7th floor (at the corner of East 68th Street), Borough of Manhattan. Please bring a picture ID for entrance into the building. The hearing will start at 2:00p.m.

lofter1
July 8th, 2010, 02:46 PM
Ground Zero Mosque Building Not Worth Landmarking, Community Board Says

Plans for a Ground Zero mosque were given a boost when Community Board 1 ruled it wasn't worth landmarking the building.

DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100708/manhattan/mosque-building-not-worth-landmarking-community-board-says)
By Julie Shapiro
DNAinfo Reporter/Producer
July 8, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — Plans to build a 13-story mosque and community center near Ground Zero were given a boost Wednesday night when Community Board 1 said the current building at the site wasn't architecturally significant enough to landmark.

Opponents of the Cordoba Initiative's plan to build their $100 million center at 45-47 Park Place had been pushing to have the 152-year-old building landmarked as a way to thwart the proposed Ground Zero mosque.

The Cordoba Initiative still has several hurdles to clear despite Wednesday's advisory vote.

The city Landmarks Commission is holding a hearing on the building next Tuesday. If the city Landmarks Preservation Commission agrees with the CB1 Landmarks Committee’s advisory vote, it will clear the path for the Cordoba Initiative to build the mosque.

Because of the sensitivity of the project, which has drawn strong objections from some 9/11 family members, the leaders of CB1’s Landmarks Committee spent more time researching this building than they ever have for any other application, said Bruce Ehrmann, co-chairman of the committee.

The five-story Italianate Renaissance-style warehouse first caught local preservationists’ attention in the 1980s, and they fought for it to be included in a TriBeCa historic district. But while the city held a hearing on the building in 1989, the Landmarks Commission never took any action, so the building has been in limbo since then.

Roger Byrom, chairman of the Landmarks Committee, said that while he would have liked to see the building included in a historic district, it does not have enough distinctive historical features to “rise to the level of an individual New York City landmark.”

Still, Byrom urged the Cordoba Initiative to preserve the historic cast-iron and stone facade, perhaps by carefully deconstructing it and then reincorporating elements into the future design.

On 9/11, landing gear from one of the planes crashed through the building’s roof and heavily damaged the interior, but the exterior is largely intact.

Also Wednesday night, the board’s Financial District Committee voted not to revisit their previous support of the secular aspects of the Cordoba project. A handful of board members had wanted the community board to withdraw its opinion of the project altogether, but they did not prevail.

The Landmarks Preservation Commission hearing about the building will be held at 904 Lexington Ave. on July 13 at 2 p.m.

Copyright © 2009 - 2010 Digital Network Associates dba DNAinfo.com

lofter1
July 8th, 2010, 02:57 PM
The CB1 Committee vote has Pamela Geller and the anti-mosque crew going crazy:

THE FIX WAS IN: COMMUNITY BOARD UNANIMOUSLY DENIES LANDMARK STATUS TO GROUND ZERO MEGA MOSQUE SITE (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/community-board-passes-resolution-opposed-to-landmarking-ground-zero-mega-mosque-site.html)


New York politicians are bending over backwards, violating protocol, to build a mega mosque at Ground Zero. In warped speed they are ramming it through, removing every obstacle to expedite the process and erect a triumphal mosque at Ground Zero in time for it to meet its stated opening date, the tenth anniversary of September 11th. Why? Would they do this for a church? A synagogue? This is an outrage .....

Last night, on less than a week and a half's notice (at a time when most people who care are not even around), the Lower Manhattan Community Board 1 (“LMCB”) Landmark Commission (“LMCBLC”) held its meeting to consider the landmark status of 45-47 Park Place (the site of the proposed 911 mega mosque). Refusing to wait until the entire board could meet, seven board members voted unanimously to deny landmark status to the Burlington Coat Factory building, removing another obstacle to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's supremacist, triumphal mosque ...

*

One point (beyond the wild hyperbole) brought up in that ^ post that has some weight in regard to Landmarking is a very similar building at 311 Broadway (http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_351/buffalostyle.html) (5-story, Italianate stone facade) that was given Landmark designation in January 2010.

*

Meanwhile, the politicians start to play ...

Rick Lazio Demands Andrew Cuomo Investigate Ground Zero Mosque

Lazio criticized his gubernatorial opponent, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, for supporting the planned mosque.

DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100707/manhattan/rick-lazio-demands-andrew-cuomo-investigate-ground-zero-mosque)
July 7, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — Gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio is calling on his opponent, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, to investigate a non-profit group's plans to build a 13-story mosque and community center near Ground Zero.

Lazio, the Republican nominee for governor, wrote a letter to Cuomo, the Democratic nominee, demanding answers on the finances of the Cordoba Initiative, the group that plans to build the complex on Park Place.

“This is an issue of public safety,” Lazio said at a press conference Wednesday morning, claiming that mosques were used as extremist recruitment centers around the world.

Lazio criticized Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, chairman of the Cordoba Initiative, for not disclosing the nonprofit’s funding sources and for reportedly saying shortly after 9/11 that US Middle East policies played a role in the attacks.

“To suggest that America had iit coming on 9/11 is outrageous,” Lazio said. “At best, he said, Rauf is being "insensitive," and at worst, "he is sympathetic with people who would mean us great harm.”

Standing alongside Lazio Wednesday morning were firefighter Tim Brown, 48, a first responder on 9/11, and Debra Burlingame, 56, whose brother was the pilot on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Both criticized the mosque plans.

Spokespersons for Cuomo and the Cordoba Initiative did not respond to requests for comment.

Meanwhile, the public approvals process for the mosque is inching forward.
Community Board 1’s Landmarks Committee will vote tonight on whether the 152-year-old building at 45-47 Park Place, which Rauf plans to tear down to build the center, should be landmarked.

The board’s vote is advisory, and the city Landmarks Preservation Commission, whose members are appointed by the mayor, will have the final say. The LPC is holding a hearing on the building next week.

lofter1
July 8th, 2010, 05:49 PM
Polling aside, it’s not a mosque, it’s a right

Downtown Express (http://downtownexpress.com/de_376/editorial.html)
July 9, 2010

EDITORIAL

We were disturbed at the results of last week’s Quinnipiac poll on New Yorkers’ opinions concerning a possible “mosque” near Ground Zero. First and foremost, as we pointed out in a previous editorial, the word mosque is an inept description of what the Cordoba Initiative will eventually erect at the site of the old Burlington Coat Factory.

And we suspect that had Quinnipiac refrained from using the inflammatory word in their poll, the results would have been different, perhaps significantly. We would also like to point out that the poll has absolutely no bearing on the project itself, as it is a true as-of-right project. The community center can be built if it complies with all zoning, building department, and Landmarks regulations; it does not need City Planning or community board approvals.

The Cordoba House has mistakenly been labeled a “mosque,” unveiling closeted feelings of prejudice among some residents of this city. Bigotry has steadily formed since the September 11th attacks and the Bush administration’s “war on terror.” Polls such as this only add fuel to the fire and give the opposition the cultural battlefield on which to wage their wars.

Why does the location of the “mosque” matter? It seems as if Stop Islamization of America is using this project as an excuse to spread its anti-Islamic agenda. And it’s doing so in the wrong place: New York City, a melting pot of religions and home to between 600,000 and 800,000 Muslims, according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Some of the results were startling. Only 35 percent of surveyed New Yorkers ages 55 and up have a generally favorable opinion of Islam or the Muslim religion. 49 percent of white Jews and forty-one percent of white Catholics have a generally unfavorable opinion of the culture or religion.

Fortunately, results improve for those who actually know a Muslim: 57 percent of these surveyed New Yorkers have a generally favorable opinion of them. So perhaps if the surveyed folks gave Muslims a chance by getting to know them, they wouldn’t automatically associate them with the al-Qaeda extremists.

The debate over what to call the Cordoba House — mosque, community center, cultural center, prayer center, etc. — underscores the general ambiguity of such “community centers.” What is the appropriate name for churches that sponsor events open to the general public? Or Jewish Cultural Centers that have prayer spaces in them? Does the name “community center” undermine the religious component of the organization?

Rather than refer to the Cordoba Initiative as a “Muslim mosque and cultural center,” poll director Douglas Schwartz could have phrased it the correct way, that is, a “cultural center with a Muslim prayer space.” We suspect that would have changed the results about this specific center.

It should be up to the creators of the Cordoba House to get the final word on naming their center. After all, they’re the ones who are building it.

But perhaps this is all academic. What Schwartz was really getting at, and what the poll accomplishes, is that it highlights the prejudice in New York City, supposedly one of the most liberal-minded populations in America.

We have work to do at home, which irronically is precisely the mission of the Cordoba center: to provide a forum that helps to foster tolerance and interfaith dialogue.

© 2009 Community Media, LLC

londonlawyer
July 9th, 2010, 07:22 PM
This is f...king outrageous. How could these a_holes not landmark these gems? This BS is why NY is losing so many historic gems.

scumonkey
July 9th, 2010, 09:25 PM
The city Landmarks Commission is not holding a hearing on the building until next Tuesday
the community board does not have the power to landmark, or not landmark buildings.
You should hold your outrage until the LC rules one way or the other.

lofter1
July 9th, 2010, 10:49 PM
And my bet is that LPC will not vote on Tuesday about designating the building. They will let everyone say their piece and make the decision at a later date.

And be aware that the arch-faced building at 49-51 Park Place is not on the LPC calendar, nor will it be considered for Landmark status.

ablarc
July 10th, 2010, 09:40 AM
the arch-faced building at 49-51 Park Place is not on the LPC calendar...
Should be, though; the two make a nice ensemble --better than either alone.

lofter1
July 10th, 2010, 10:17 AM
Agreed ^ Cordoba House planners could incorporate both into whatever structure might rise above.

lofter1
July 10th, 2010, 11:32 AM
In 1891, across the street at 68-74 Park Place, a disaster struck when the building there collapsed, killing over 100 persons ...

SEARCHING FOR THE DEAD - FULLY A HUNDRED VICTIMS OF THE PARK PLACE DISASTER.

THE WORK OF EXPLORING THE RUINS OF THE TAYLOR BUILDING PROGRESSING SLOWLY -- THE STORY OF THE CATASTROPHE AS TOLD BY SURVIVORS -- THE OVERWEIGHTING OF THE BUILDING WITH HEAYY MACHINERY THE CHIEF CAUSE OF THE ACCIDENT -- LISTS OF THE DEAD, MISSING, AND INJURED.

NY TIMES (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9807E3DD1339E033A25757C2A96E9C94 609ED7CF)
August 24, 1891, Wednesday

Dreadful as were the first details of the destruction of the Taylor Building in Park Place, the lapse of nearly forty-eight hours has not served to modify or make them one whit the less shocking. That 100 people met a horrible death when the structure, numbered from 68 to 74, fell to the street and caught fire is almost beyond the possibility of a doubt. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

Full Article [pdf] (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9807E3DD1339E033A25757C2A96E9C94609ED7CF) with diagram of the site.

ablarc
July 10th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Some of the results were startling. Only 35 percent of surveyed New Yorkers ages 55 and up have a generally favorable opinion of Islam or the Muslim religion. 49 percent of white Jews and forty-one percent of white Catholics have a generally unfavorable opinion of the culture or religion.
Maybe not so startling?

Would "predictable" have been a better choice of adjective?

lofter1
July 10th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Follow-up to the Taylor Building collapse, which took out the Peterson's restaurant on the first floor and which was full of diners at the time of the disaster ...

ADDING TO THE DEATH LIST; FULLY SIX SCORE PERISHED IN THE TAYLOR BUILDING.

NINETEEN BODIES TAKEN FROM THE RUINS YESTERDAY -- MANY INQUIRIES AT THE MORGUE FOR MISSING RELATIVES AND FRIENDS -- THE SEARCH FOR THE DEAD HAMPERED BY LACK OF METHOD AND PROPER APPLIANCES -- STATEMENTS OF OFFICIALS DENYING ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DISASTER.

NY TIMES (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C01E6DF153AE533A25756C2A96E9C94 609ED7CF)
August 25, 1891, Wednesday

Full Article [pdf] (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C01E6DF153AE533A25756C2A96E9C94609ED7CF)

***

STRAIGHT TO THE POINT; IMPORTANT TESTIMONY AS TO THE PLACE DISASTER.

ARCHITECT VAN NORDEN SHOWS BY COMPUTATIONS THAT THE TAYLOR BUILDING WAS OVERWEIGHTED -- A MATHEMATICAL DEMONSTRATION.

NY TIMES (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D01E7DC153AE533A25757C0A96F9C94 609ED7CF)
September 4, 1891, Wednesday

The Coroners' inquest into the cause of the Park Place disaster was continued yesterday. Much important evidence was brought out, and it mainly tended to show that the overweighting of the building had caused the collapse. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

Full Article [pdf] (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D01E7DC153AE533A25757C0A96F9C94609ED7CF)

***

MEN WITH AXES TO GRIND.; THEY ARE LABORING WITH THE PARK PLACE JURY.

ANXIOUS TO PROVE THAT THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION -- THE INQUEST PROLONGED BY WITNESSES CALLED TO SUSTAIN THAT THEORY.

NY TIMES (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A0CE7DB153AE533A25753C1A96F9C94 609ED7CF)
September 10, 1891, Wednesday

The inquest into the cause of the Park Place disaster is assuming a rather questionable phase through the evident determination of interested parties to make the cause of the catastrophe an explosion. After the bulk of the testimony had been taken from the witnesses summoned by the city officials, the burden of proof was that the Taylor Building collapsed through structural weakness and overloading. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

Full Article [pdf] (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A0CE7DB153AE533A25753C1A96F9C94609ED7CF)

lofter1
July 10th, 2010, 03:25 PM
I thought the "cut through" of the street noted on the photo referred to Robinson Street / Park Place ...

This MAP from 1852 (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=673656&imageID=1270007&total=8&num=0&word=college%20place%20map&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=2&e=w) is before the street was cut through and shows the area between Church <> College Place as part of the Columbia College campus, open to the east but closed off to the west by a structure where Robinson Street would meet up with the campus.

What I'm trying to figure out now is when did the rest of Robinson Street get changed to Park Place?

And who the heck is Robinson :confused:



Going back to 1871 ...

THE PARK-PLACE JOB.; STARTLING EVIDENCE OF FRAUD.

Attempt of the Ring to Make Nearly $300,000
List of the Present and Original Valuations
Arithmetical Progression With a Vengeance.

A NICE FEAT OF MULTIPLICATION
THE MOST VALUABLE SPOT IN THE CITY
THE INITIATORY STEP OF THE RING
THE PROPERTY-OWNERS OUTWITTED.
WHO PROFIT BY THE JOB.
ANOTHER NEAT ARITHMETICAL TRICK.

NY TIMES (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D00E7DD103EEE34BC4C51DFB566838A 669FDE)
March 24, 1871, Wednesday

Another job ala Broadway, and another stakeholding fraud ala Watson, have been foisted on the tax-payer in the Robinson Street widening, better known as the Park-place extension, which is a well-planned scheme, carried out by real estate diplomats, who have had some experience in this sort of questionable transactions. When first inaugurated, the scheme was moderate, but gradually a light dawned on certain minds that something was to be made, and not long after a change took place in the tone of several rampant declaimers for their rights, and it was discovered that "things had been fixed" to suite them ... [END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH]

FULL ARTICLE [pdf] (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D00E7DD103EEE34BC4C51DFB566838A669FDE)

***

Still not sure who "Robinson" was :confused:

lofter1
July 10th, 2010, 05:45 PM
Earlier on Robinson Street ...

On July 11, 1804 (206 years ago tomorrow) a wounded Alexander Hamilton (http://books.google.com/books?id=fQA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA382&lpg=PA382&dq=%2225+Robinson+Street%22+%22new+York%22&source=bl&ots=B8DyWgGbz9&sig=dW_-ddQZUtOsSYXFikUOPh7rHlA&hl=en&ei=GOI4TITlCoSKlwfu5NHVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDcQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=%2225%20Robinson%20Street%22%20%22new%20York%22&f=false) -- having received a gunshot during a duel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr-Hamilton_duel) with Aaron Burr in Weekhawken, NJ -- was brought across the Hudson River to the Bayard house at the foot of the Great Kiln Road (now Gansevoort Street). There he died on July 12, 1804. Hamilton's body was then taken to 25 Robinson Street (http://www.aaronburrassociation.org/25_robinson_street.htm), the home of his brother-in-law, John B. Church. On July 14 Alexander Hamilton was buried in the Trinity Church cemetery.

Three years earlier, Hamilton's 19-year old son Philip was also shot in a duel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton#Family); he ultimately died of his wounds in the same house where his father was later laid out at 25 Robinson Street (http://www.aaronburrassociation.org/25_robinson_street.htm).

Both Hamiltons, father and son, died using the same set of pistols (http://www.aaronburrassociation.org/Smithsonian.htm), owned by John B. Church.

In 1930, Church's ancestor sold the two cased pistols to the Chase Manhattan Bank, where they have resided either in the bank's museum or vaults ever since.

Statun-Ilandur
July 11th, 2010, 02:16 PM
One famous New Yorker during the Revolutionary War was Beverly Robinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverley_Robinson#Colonel_in_the_American_Revoluti on), a friend of Benedict Arnold is a possible candidate for the name on Robinson Street.

BENEDICT ARNOLD, TRAITOR; STORY OF HIS ATTEMPT TO SURRENDER WEST POINT (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9901E6DD1131E033A2575AC0A96F9C94 659ED7CF)

Robinson was a loyalist and a very wealthy land owner in New York state with “estates on the east side of the Hudson”.

Since New York was in the middle all during the war regarding its loyalties to the crown, it is a good possibility that if Robinson Street was named after British Colonel Beverly Robinson, then maybe it is no big deal that the name stuck to the street until 1852.

lofter1
July 11th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Good find ^

Regarding the building at 45-47 Park Place, the Stop Islamization Of America (SIOA) group claims (http://sioaonline.com/?p=410):


... it is an historic war memorial. A piece of the plane that was used as a missile to take down the WTC crashed onto the roof of the Burlington Coat Factory building and went though all five floors to the basement, heavily damaging the building — that makes that building a part of American history. It should not be altered in any way.

That claim about the damage inflicted is misinformation.

As laid out in the post-9/11 report of damage to Peripheral Buildings, 45 Park Place was put on the list of nearby buildings that sustained "Major Damage." Of all the buildings listed 45 Park Place seemingly sustained the least damage.

While the landing gear did indeed penetrate the roof of 45-47 Park Place, it did NOT crash through the entire building to the basement as claimed, but seems to have come to rest on an upper floor. The 45-47 Park Place building required very little repairs in comparison with others on the list.

In fact, DOB records show no work applications whatsoever (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByLocationServlet?requestid=5&allbin=1079148&allstrt=PARK+PLACE&allnumbhous=45) following September 2001, indicating no major repair work was required at 45-47 Park Place.

From the report [pdf] (http://www.civil.columbia.edu/ce4210/FEMA_403CD/html/pdfs/403_ch7.pdf) ...


7. Peripheral Buildings

http://www.civil.columbia.edu/ce4210/FEMA_403CD/html/pdfs/403_ch7.pdf

7.1 Introduction

In addition to the WTC buildings and Bankers Trust building, a number of other buildings suffered damage from the projectiles and debris resulting from the deliberate aircraft impacts into WTC 1 and WTC 2 on September 11, 2001, and the resulting collapse of WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7. As discussed in Chapter 1, Section 1.4, on September 12, 2001, the first round of building inspections were contracted for the New York City Department of Buildings (DoB) and the New York City Department of Design and Construction (DDC). This chapter is based on the field observations made by the Building Performance Study (BPS) Team, the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) summary presented below, and Life Safety Reports prepared by LAZ Technology/Thornton-Tomasetti (LZA 2001).

Major Damage (shoring and large debris removal required):

WFC 3 American Express
Verizon
30 West Broadway
45 Park Place
Bankers Trust
90 West Street
130 Cedar Street

7.7 45 Park Place

This building is located three blocks north of the WTC site (Figure 7-1), and was initially rated as No Damage when inspected from the exterior. However, subsequent interior inspection revealed that three floor beams were missing from the top story of the building as a result of the landing gear that penetrated the roof following the airplane impact on WTC 2, shown in Figure 1-4 (in Chapter 1). The rating was subsequently changed to Major Damage. No other significant damage was found.

Here's the landing gear as found inside 45-47 Park Place:

9932

SIOA's declaration that 45-47 Park Place "should not be altered in any way" would place the building in a distinct category, basically freezing it in time. No other building under the LPC has such broad restrictions, and that singular classification would, in effect, render the building useless in the future.

Statun-Ilandur
July 11th, 2010, 02:27 PM
They were going to recycle 130 Liberty after the attack into a cleaned up 41 story building. It was not considered sacred by its interface with war. I don't think they will stand by their words "should not be altered in any way".

lofter1
July 11th, 2010, 03:04 PM
They will take whatever position they can, reasonable or not, to try and stop the Cordoba House plan.

Landmarking this site will not take away the ability of the owner to build the size of building they propose (that is covered by Zoning & City Planning, not at Landmarks); designation would really only mean that the owner would have to restore and include the existing facade into their plan.

From City Planning for a nearby site:


The site is located in a C6-4 zoning district which allows commercial and residential uses up to an FAR of 10, bonusable to 12 FAR through either inclusionary housing or residential plaza bonuses.

The site on the Zoning Map [pdf] (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/zone/map12b.pdf):

9933

lofter1
July 12th, 2010, 06:35 PM
Mayor Refuses to Investigate Ground Zero Mosque’s Finances

Bloomberg was responding to Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio's call for scrutiny of the $100 million project.

DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100712/manhattan/mayor-michael-bloomberg-refuses-investigate-ground-zero-mosques-finances)
By Julie Shapiro
DNAinfo Reporter/Producer
July 12, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — Mayor Michael Bloomberg sees no reason to investigate the Muslim group that plans to build a 13-story mosque and community center near Ground Zero.

Bloomberg said Monday morning that the city has never vetted religious organizations and isn’t about to start now.

He was responding to a question about Republican gubernatorial nominee Rick Lazio, who last week called on his Democratic opponent, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, and city officials, to look into how the Cordoba Initiative plans to fund the $100 million center (http://dnainfo.com/20100707/manhattan/rick-lazio-demands-andrew-cuomo-investigate-ground-zero-mosque). Lazio said he was concerned for “public safety” if the project went forward.

Bloomberg said Monday that Lazio’s demand “just is so out of character for what this nation stands for and the way we conduct ourselves,” according to a Daily News transcript (http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/07/mayor-bloomberg-not-hot-on-ric-1.html).

Bloomberg linked the mosque plans to freedom of religion:

"I've said that the government should never — never — be in the business of telling people how they should pray or where they can pray,” he said, “and I think we want to make sure that everybody from around the world feels comfortable coming here, living here and praying the way they want to pray.”

Like Bloomberg, Cuomo also rebuffed Lazio’s request for an investigation, saying last week that those who want to build the mosque have the right to do so.

The Port Authority Police Benevolent Association, which lost 37 members on 9/11, put out a scathing statement last week (http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/29290/port-authority-pba-slaps-lazio-for-mosque-presser/) accusing Lazio of politicizing the mosque issue.

“Rick Lazio should stop exploiting the worst day in New York history for the sake of his campaign,” association President Paul Nunziato said. “For any candidate for public office to politicize Ground Zero shows a lack of respect to the families, who will forever live with the terrible memory of that dark day.”

Copyright © 2009 - 2010 Digital Network Associates dba DNAinfo.com

londonlawyer
July 12th, 2010, 07:52 PM
Lazio is a wang. His inference regarding the Mosque's financing is offensive. Nevertheless, I really hope that this project is blocked. These buildings are too nice to lose.

lofter1
July 12th, 2010, 08:42 PM
LPC has moved tomorrow's Hearing into an auditorium (http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/abouthunter/thearts.shtml) that holds > 2K noisy bodies :eek: :


Please note that only the hearing for Item No. 3 (45-47 Park Place) will be held at a different location: 681 Park Avenue, Hunter College Assembly Hall, beginning at 2:00 pm.

The NY Post is reporting (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/day_for_mosque_zpw5U4MHyHzF7rK0wfqMeN) that the usual suspects who show up for LPC Public Hearings are steering clear of this one:


... the battle will draw few if any of the city's preservation groups, which for now appear ready to sit on the sidelines rather than weigh in on the fate of the 152-year-old building at 45-47 Park Place, which would be demolished to build the mosque.

"The debate isn't about the architecture of the building, it's about the use," said Peg Breen of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, one of several city groups that have championed the preservation of historic buildings.

Not sure if their absence means they don't have a stick in this fire, or that they just want to avoid the circus that this Public Hearing is sure to be.

lofter1
July 12th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Lazio is a wang. His inference regarding the Mosque's financing is offensive.


Pamela Geller, leader of tomorrow's circus at LPC, has a different idea (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/bllomberg-investigating-shady-money-behind-911-mega-mosque-is-unamerican.html) about what is offensive:


Investigating funds that might be terror tied is "unAmercian"? Who got to this tool? Is he nuts? Who funded 911? Who is funding 80% of the mosques in the US? The Muslim Brotherhood front. ICNA is linked to Anti-American terror movement.

No, Ayatollah Mike, not investigating is anti-American. Why is Bloomberg ramming this monster through? Go to the landmarks hearing at 2pm -- speak up. 904 Lexington Avenue (at the corner of East 68th Street), in Lecture Hall 714 of Hunter College on the 7th floor. Anyone who wants to speak gets two minutes -- sign up in advance in the lobby of the auditorium.

Seems Pam didn't get the news that the location of the hearing has been changed :cool:

I'm tempted to go really early just to see Geller's Army wandering around lost, their heads exploding with rage and paranoia.

lofter1
July 12th, 2010, 08:54 PM
A telling comment from Geller's site (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/bllomberg-investigating-shady-money-behind-911-mega-mosque-is-unamerican.html#comment-6a00d8341c60bf53ef01348562fb58970c) (but one of many):


pescadore said...


Do they not understand this evil monstrosity is destined to become a Sacred and Holy site for heathen Islam? This mosque will become hallowed ground memorializing the martyrs (the Saudi terrorists, not the Innocent victims) who died there, formalizing the start of the Holy Jihad to make America into a Muslim Caliphate, with the subservient ahl-dhimmi Christians and Jews. These backward ass heathens live and believe this fantasy, and with traitors like Bloomberg, Holder and Obama in power, the conditions have never been better. Wake up Christian America, the barbarians are at the gate.

Non-Christians, watch out ...

BrooklynLove
July 13th, 2010, 07:20 AM
I'm about as big a fan of the USA as you'll find, but I have to step back here and observe that the governing bodies of this country can sometimes be embarrassingly enormous hypocrites.

ablarc
July 13th, 2010, 09:06 AM
^ And which governing bodies might those be?

ZippyTheChimp
July 13th, 2010, 09:31 AM
Not sure if their absence means they don't have a stick in this fire, or that they just want to avoid the circus that this Public Hearing is sure to be.The same might be true at the Historic Districts Council (http://www.hdc.org/). They testify at almost all LPC hearings, the last for the Frick House on June 22. There's no mention of the Burlington building on their website. There have been comments in the press by the organization:

Simeon Bankoff, the executive director of the Historic Districts Council, which works to preserve the city's cultural and architectural heritage, said the building was characterized by a noteworthy cast-iron storefront. "It's still a strong candidate for preservation," he said.
He said that about two-thirds of the batch of buildings that the Park Place address belonged to had been given protected status over the past two decades.

MidtownGuy
July 13th, 2010, 09:32 AM
These backward ass heathens live and believe this fantasy, and with traitors like Bloomberg, Holder and Obama in power, the conditions have never been better. Wake up Christian America, the barbarians are at the gate.

how novel...Christians accusing people of being traitors and barbarians.

Where else did I read about being a traitor this morning...


He's a good person, the kind of moderate Muslim we all seek, and by the standards of the Koran he is a traitor.

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 10:35 AM
... I have to step back here and observe that the governing bodies of this country can sometimes be embarrassingly enormous hypocrites.

Unless it becomes NYC policy to designate every building of a certain age then choices regarding Landmark protection need to be made.

None of those currently serving on the Landmarks Preservation Commission were there when 45-47 Park Place was calendered over 20 years ago. No doubt some LPC staff members have been in place through all those years, but consider the number of buildings in NYC that have been proposed for protection (thousands). Given the fact that the way that property information was filed 20+ years ago -- papers in a box on a shelf -- it isn't all that odd that one like this would get shuffled away and forgotten about (computerization of building records has made such an occurrence much less likely).

When the calendared building 45-47 Park Place is looked at in detail and compared with other nearby buildings of the same era that have been given individual Landmark designation (23-25 Park Place & 311 Broadway [pdf] (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/reports/311Bway.pdf)) one can see why this one would be passed over by the Commission for Landmark designation.

While 45-47 Park Place has an intact and visible cast iron base (7 fluted columns with Corinthian crowns) and an intact stone facade on the 4 floors above, the overall design is about as basic as they come and not necessarily among the best examples of the pre-Civil War era style of loft buildings that were erected west of Broadway in the vicinity of the Hudson River Piers (which had begun to overtake East River Piers following improvements along the waterfront and the widening of Dey & Cortland Street in the early 1850s).

45-47 Park Place lacks quoins that are present at 311 Broadway (1856-57) and the window sills and pilasters are basic slabs, lacking any of the detailing seen on the other designated properties.

23-25 Park Place (1856-57) -- just one block to the east -- has a much more complex facade, as described in the LPC Designation Report (http://www.nyclandmarks.org/landmarks/23-park-place-building):


... the five-story structure has similarly articulated unified facades influenced by the Italian Renaissance palazzo style prevalent in commercial architecture of the time. The upper stories are faced in stone and united by molded sill courses at the second and fifth floors and molded stringcourse at the fourth floor with alternating panels and roundels and embellished with a hierarchy of classically-inspired window treatments. Ornamentation includes the second floor’s aediculated surrounds with alternating bracketed triangular and segmental pediments adapted from the Farnese Palace in Rome, the third floor’s elegant bracketed projecting lintels, the fourth floor’s projecting lintels and the fifth floor’s finely carved eared moldings surrounding round-arched windows. Both facades are topped by continuous stone cornices ornamented with dentils, modillions and a frieze of alternating panels and roundels.

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 10:44 AM
Seems Pam didn't get the news that the location of the hearing has been changed ...


The clever lady has figured it out (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/alerttodays-landmark-hearing-on-ground-zero-mega-mosque-site-location-changed-again.html). And, of course, the change in venue is A DASTARDLY PLOT by those who want to destroy the USA ...




**ALERT** TODAY'S LANDMARK HEARING ON GROUND ZERO MEGA MOSQUE SITE LOCATION CHANGED AGAIN

Please get this out to your lists. Perhaps someone should wait at the last venue change and let folks know. They have moved the meeting place again. This is deliberate. The fewer people who witness this vile exhibition of cronyism, dhimmitude, and corruption, the better. Bloomberg is a snake.

Never mind the fact that the prior venue would only hold 750 people, and the new one holds over 2,000.

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 10:49 AM
One of Ms. Geller's followers eats up the rhetoric, falls in line and proposes a solution (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/alerttodays-landmark-hearing-on-ground-zero-mega-mosque-site-location-changed-again.html#comment-6a00d8341c60bf53ef01348566a64b970c):


arthur said...

I wonder if a civilised human being, obviouly not a muslim, will put a fatwa on Bloomberg. That would be poetic justice and rather interesting!!!

Pogo had it right.

ZippyTheChimp
July 13th, 2010, 11:07 AM
As I mentioned in a previous post, 45-47 Park Pl was one part of all the buildings that were researched to present a case for historic district designation. I also found out that Burlington opposed the designation of the building.

Burlington was a company in an area that was steadily losing its mostly produce-related business base. It may have been thought to be unwise to antagonize them into relocating. Also, the LPC in its early years was on shaky legal ground, and avoided creating historic districts that included commercial streets. A big reason why, rather than individual buildings, entire stretches of 5th Ave were not designated.

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 06:01 PM
Dueling Beliefs ... And Christian Charity Abounds ...

Christian Evangelical Center Plans to Compete with Ground Zero Mosque

A Christian Evangelical Center will begin holding weekly services in Battery Park City this fall.

DNAinfo (http://dnainfo.com/20100713/manhattan/christian-evangelical-center-plans-compete-with-ground-zero-mosque)
By Julie Shapiro
DNAinfo Reporter/Producer
July 13, 2010

LOWER MANHATTAN — The proposed mosque near Ground Zero is about to get some competition.

Bill Keller, a televangelist from Florida, announced Monday that he is building a $1 million Christian center (http://www.911christiancenter.com/) in lower Manhattan in response to the Cordoba Initiative’s plans for a 13-story mosque and community center there (http://www.dnainfo.com/20100712/manhattan/landmarks-preservation-commission-weigh-future-of-ground-zero-mosque-building).

"If they can put a mosque near Ground Zero, we should be able to put a Christian center near Ground Zero and give people a choice," Keller told DNAinfo in a phone interview Tuesday morning. He called the Islamic center "a spit in the face of the people of New York."

Starting Sept. 5, Keller will hold weekly services at the Embassy Suites hotel in Battery Park City. By January, he plans to open a permanent center with daily services near Ground Zero (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=178033), featuring a 300-seat gathering space, a 9/11 prayer room, classrooms and offices.

Keller, 52, said his 9/11 Christian Center at Ground Zero is "not just another church."

"We’re not looking to reach people who are already Christians," Keller said. "We’re looking to reach people with no faith at all."

Keller is best known for running LivePrayer.com (http://www.liveprayer.com/), an evangelical site that he said has 2.4 million subscribers. His anti-Muslim rhetoric — he calls Islam a "1,400-year-old lie from hell" and Mohammed a "murdering pedophile who propagated his false religion through hatred, violence and death" — has drawn protests from the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Two decades ago, Keller served several years in federal prison for insider trading, an experience that he said recommitted him to evangelical Christianity.

He now lives in St. Petersburg, Fla., and will commute weekly to New York to lead services.

Keller is holding a planning meeting for the 9/11 Christian Center on July 17 at 11 a.m. at the Embassy Suites hotel, 102 North End Ave.

Copyright © 2009 - 2010 Digital Network Associates dba DNAinfo.com

ZippyTheChimp
July 13th, 2010, 07:20 PM
^
Actually pretty cool, because I'm wondering how Goldman Sachs fits into all this.

GS owns the Embassy Suites, and they have not been renewing retail leases, planning a complete building renovation. To anyone familiar with the culture at GS, this political-religious battle would be the last thing they would want to get involved in. Now even the passageway between the two buildings is patrolled by security and NYPD.

Well, didn't CEO Lloyd Blankfein state that his company was doing God's work. Here ya go, Lloyd.

Credit where credit is due: Many of us are grateful that Applebee's and Chevy's got the boot. The renovated hotel will open in autumn 2011 as the Conrad New York, more upscale.

tone99loc
July 13th, 2010, 08:37 PM
For the record, I absolutely do not want a mosque constructed here and have no qualms about saying so. My uncle died on 9/11 and I find this completely offensive.

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 08:47 PM
The media chimes in with video of the hearing:

WNBC (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/New-Yorkers-Sound-off-about-Mosque-Plans-Near-Ground-Zero-98366594.html) - Landmarks Hearing for "Ground Zero Mosque" Building Turns Raucous

WABC (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7552991) - Hearing on mosque near WTC site

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 08:59 PM
The Landmarks Committee at CB1 issued a Resolution, not favoring Landmark status, but (as pointed out by a Committee member at today's LPC hearing) included some weasley words that indicate they think the facade of the building actually has some importance:


[...]

WHEREAS: While 45-47 Park Place would be of merit as contributing to a related Landmarks District, unfortunately it stands virtually by itself, an anachronism surrounded principally by tall office buildings of much later eras, and

WHEREAS: The property under consideration is rich with inflections of fine mid-19th Century commercial architecture, but -- not being able to align itself within a Landmarks District – does not rise to the level of an individual New York City landmark, in the manner of the Hopkins Store at 75 Murray Street, with elements attributed to James Bogardus or other buildings attributed to Bogardus including 75 Murray and 63 Nassau Streets, and

WHEREAS: Community Board No.1 Manhattan urges that in light of the redevelopment budget for this site that the historic façade be carefully deconstructed, stored and incorporated into any future design for the site, now

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED THAT: Community Board #1 Manhattan recommends that the Landmarks Preservation Commission not designate 45-47 Park Place as an individual landmark, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT: Community Board #1 Manhattan advises that the historic façade be saved and used at its present location.

IMHO the Committee is clearly overstepping its bounds. Either it's a Landmark or it's not. If not then the owner can build as of right -- and neither LPC or CB1 should be putting extra-legal controls on what the property owner can do.

lofter1
July 13th, 2010, 11:12 PM
Planned Sign of Tolerance Bringing Division Instead

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/nyregion/14center.html?ref=nyregion)
By JAVIER C. HERNANDEZ
July 13, 2010

The Cordoba House was supposed to be a monument to religious tolerance, an homage to the city in Spain where Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived together centuries ago in the midst of religious foment.

Its 15 stories, home to a Muslim community center and a mosque, would rise two blocks from the pit of dust and cranes where the twin towers once stood, a symbol of the resilience of the American melting pot, its supporters said.

But instead of inspiring mutual respect, the center has opened deep divisions marked by vitriolic commentary, pitting Muslims against Christians, Tea Partiers against staunch liberals, and Sept. 11 families against one another.

And so what began as a gesture of combined good faith by Muslims and non-Muslims has turned into a familiar game of New York City political football.

The bellicose discourse was on full display on Tuesday in an auditorium at Hunter College in Manhattan as the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission considered whether to grant the center, at 45-51 Park Place, final approval.

In a city where the memorial to those killed on Sept. 11 is only now taking shape, it is perhaps not surprising that the idea of a mosque near the ruins of the World Trade Center would stir such passion.

Sally Regenhard, whose 28-year-old son, Christian, a firefighter, died on Sept. 11, said in an interview that the center would amount to “sacrilege on sacred ground.”

“People are being accused of being anti-Muslim and racist, but this is simply a matter of sensitivity,” said Ms. Regenhard, who lives in Yonkers. “It’s hard enough to go down to that pit of hell and death.”

In recent days, politicians have called for an investigation of the group’s finances and expressed concerns about the views of its leader, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who has held services in a small mosque in TriBeCa since 1983. The Internet has featured fury from all sides, and some bloggers have labeled the proposal a sub-rosa effort to spread extremist Islam.

Many Muslim-Americans have been taken aback by the intensity of the reaction, saying it was a sign that discrimination was alive and well nearly nine years after 9/11. But they said the vigorous opposition underscored the need for the $100 million center, which would include a 500-seat auditorium and offer a range of programs modeled on the Y.M.C.A. and the Jewish Community Center in Manhattan.

“There is such an ignorance about Islam,” said Sharif El-Gamal, chief executive of SoHo Properties, the developer of the building. “This is the voice of the moderate Muslim.”

Mr. El-Gamal released a fact sheet on Tuesday playing down the center’s religious connections and calling it an “institution for all of us.” There are also plans to give the building a blander name: Park51.

Though those skeptical of the project consider it an offense to the memory of those killed in the attack, others say its proximity is its strength: a symbol of American religious freedom to counter the extremism that came to the fore on that day.

“I want tolerance, I want inclusion, and there is no better embodiment,” said Valerie Lucznikowska, 71, whose nephew, Adam Arias, died in the Sept. 11 attack. “This is a living city. Ground zero is not a static shrine.”

With a November election approaching, politicians have latched onto the issue as a high-profile platform to attack their opponents.

On Tuesday, Rick A. Lazio, a Republican running for governor, urged the landmarks commission to protect the building, constructed in the late 1850s in the Italian Renaissance palazzo style; this would effectively halt the plans for the Muslim center. The commission expects to vote on the issue in August.

“This is about getting questions answered,” Mr. Lazio told reporters. “This is about transparency. This about the safety of the people of New York, and it’s about how we view that safety and our responsibilities as public leaders to guarantee that.”

“Religion has nothing to do with this,” he added.

Representative Peter T. King, a Republican, joined Mr. Lazio in calling for an investigation into the financing of the project. But Andrew M. Cuomo, Mr. Lazio’s Democratic opponent and the state’s attorney general, has rebuffed those requests.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has strongly endorsed the project, arguing that it is not the role of government to meddle in religious and business affairs.

“Government should never — never — be in the business of telling people how they should pray, or where they can pray,” Mr. Bloomberg said on Monday. “We want to make sure that everybody from around the world feels comfortable coming here, living here and praying the way they want to pray.”

In May, the Lower Manhattan community board also voted to support the center.

The building, at 45 Park Place, was once part of a textile district surrounding City Hall.

On Sept. 11, the landing gear assembly of one of the planes used in the attack crashed through the roof of what was then a Burlington Coat Factory.

For Muslim-Americans, the controversy surrounding the center has rekindled worries that life in the United States may continue to be clouded with mistrust. In Staten Island and in Brooklyn, proposals for mosques are facing strong opposition from community members.

Yvonne Haddad, a professor at the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University, said that after enjoying some acceptance in the aftermath of Sept. 11, Muslim residents were facing growing hostility.

“It is a palpable difference,” Ms. Haddad said, attributing the antagonism to the war in Afghanistan, the attempted bombing of Times Square, and the shootings at Fort Hood.

“Americans have always been open toward religion and prayer and people’s faith as a private space,” Ms. Haddad said. “But building mosques makes a statement that ‘we are here and we are here to stay,’ and some people would like to wish them away.”

Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

BrooklynLove
July 14th, 2010, 07:34 AM
^ And which governing bodies might those be?

For starters, I'll refer you to the article posted by Lofter immediately above.

ZippyTheChimp
July 14th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Sally Regenhard, whose 28-year-old son, Christian, a firefighter, died on Sept. 11, said in an interview that the center would amount to “sacrilege on sacred ground.”

“People are being accused of being anti-Muslim and racist, but this is simply a matter of sensitivity,” said Ms. Regenhard, who lives in Yonkers. “It’s hard enough to go down to that pit of hell and death.”These are the embers that are being stoked.

It's understandable that Regenhard, who probably never visits the WTC except to relive a tragic event, would regard it as "a pit of hell and death." And what exactly is the border of that pit?

lofter1
July 14th, 2010, 11:10 AM
Major portions of the Public Hearing via YouTube:

Ground Zero Mosque & Landmarks Preservation Commission (Part 1)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7HwSVwuqjs

Ground Zero Mosque & Landmarks Preservation Commission (Part 2)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh4YlLowQlw

Travis
July 14th, 2010, 11:35 AM
For the record, I absolutely do not want a mosque constructed here and have no qualms about saying so. My uncle died on 9/11 and I find this completely offensive.
Do you think Christian churches should be banned from Jerusalem because of Christian atrocities there during the Crusades?

Sherpa
July 14th, 2010, 10:39 PM
The "Free Happy Endings" activist at 22min in Part two is great!!

lofter1
July 14th, 2010, 11:12 PM
Pamela Geller was on MSNBC this morning (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201007140034), re-telling many of the outright falsehoods about the Cordoba House site that have been outlined in this post (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23759&p=330488&viewfull=1#post330488).

Geller was scheduled to be on Chris Matthews / Hardball later today, but the producers cancelled her appearance -- as chronicled on Media Matters (http://mediamatters.org/blog/201007140051) (where they also piled it on (http://mediamatters.org/research/201007140035)).

Geller is lashing out (http://mediamatters.org/blog/201007140051) and fighting back (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/atlas-tv-heads-exploding-on-the-left.html), putting Chris Matthews on her very long dhimmi list ...


I am very flattered. Thanks, boys. Well, we know where Chris Matthews No Balls gets his marching orders.......

Fabrizio
July 15th, 2010, 04:26 AM
It is unfortunately when these big-mouthed nut-cases with zero culture get a hold of a cause like this.

Being against the Cordoba House in this location can be argued intelligently:


A mosque at ground zero?
By Jeff Jacoby
Boston Globe / June 6, 2010

IS GROUND ZERO the right place for a major new mosque and Islamic cultural center? Cordoba House is a 15-story, $100 million development to be built just 600 feet from where the World Trade Center stood; the plans include the mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, restaurant, and bookstore.

The prospect of an Islamic center so close to ground zero is, not surprisingly, controversial. Many relatives of Sept. 11 victims are strongly opposed. One group, 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, calls Cordoba House “a gross insult to the memory of those who were killed on that terrible day.’’ But the project also has strong political support. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer are among its backers, and Cordoba House was endorsed by lower Manhattan’s Community Board No. 1 in a near-unanimous vote last month.

Of particular interest are the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam.

One such individual is Zuhdi Jasser, a physician, US Navy veteran, and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy.

Jasser reminisced last week about his family’s history of building mosques in the heartland communities where they lived. His parents, Syrian immigrants to the United States, helped create the Fox Valley Islamic Center in Neenah, Wis., in 1980. “This was during the Iranian hostage crisis,’’ he recalled, “and some of the local residents wanted the Zoning Commission to prevent the mosque from going forward.’’ But the commissioners gave their blessing to the project, and the modest mosque — the construction budget was just $80,000 — became part of the neighborhood. Later the family later moved to western Arkansas, where they joined with others to create the Islamic Center of Fort Smith. As recently as March, Jasser came out in support of Muslims in Sheboygan, Wis., whose plans for a new place of worship were meeting with vocal resistance.

But he adamantly opposes the ground zero mosque.

“For us, a mosque was always a place to pray, to be together on holidays — not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement,’’ Jasser said. “Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.’’ To use that space for Muslim outreach, he argues, is “the worst form of misjudgment.’’

Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington.

Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others.’’

Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi native who founded the Institute for Gulf Affairs and is an advocate for civil rights and religious freedom in the Middle East, hopes for the best from Cordoba House. “A mosque should be a good thing,’’ he told me. But he worries about the number of Americans who may be “hurt and upset’’ by the project, and wonders whether a mosque is really the best thing for Muslims to build so close to ground zero. Why not something less emotionally charged, he asks — a social-service agency, perhaps, or an assisted living center for the elderly?

Muslims must take the feelings of Americans into account, Ahmed contends. He cites no less an Islamic authority than the Imam Ali, Mohammed’s influential son-in-law. “Reconciliation of your differences,’’ says Imam Ali in the collection of teachings known as the Peak of Eloquence, “is more worthy than all prayers and fasting.’’

Will a mosque at ground zero make reconciliation more likely? Or will it needlessly rub salt in the unhealed wounds of 9/11?

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/

Fabrizio
July 15th, 2010, 04:47 AM
Mosque unbecoming
Not at Ground Zero
By M. ZUHDI JASSER

Posted: 2:06 AM, May 24, 2010


In the 1960s, my parents left their despotic motherland of Syria for the promise of genuine liberty and religious freedom in America. In the decades since, we have led the construction of a number of mosques in the towns where we lived. Some went up without challenge from the local community, but others met with palpable local discontent. In those cases, the law and the natural American affinity for religious freedom eventually paved the way to the ribbon cutting.

These were all humble mosques, funded locally by our congregations. It's plain the planned "Ground Zero mosque" is something very different. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, his wife, Daisy Khan, and an investor intend to build "Cordoba House," an ostentatious $100 million, 13-story Muslim community center including a gym, a swimming pool, a performance-arts facility and a mosque.

My first concern is whether the financing truly represents the local American Muslim community or comes with strings from foreign Islamists. But that is far from my last concern.
I am an American Muslim dedicated to defeating the ideology that fuels global Islamist terror -- political Islam. And I don't see such a "center" actually fighting terrorism or being a very "positive" addition near Ground Zero, no matter how well intentioned.

To put it bluntly, Ground Zero is the one place in America where Muslims should think less about teaching Islam and "our good side" and more about being American and fulfilling our responsibilities to confront the ideology of our enemies. Khan and Rauf avoid discourse on reform and political Islam. Instead, they simply give us the familiar, too vague condemnation of "extremism and violence." They seem to conveniently view 9/11, al Qaeda and every manifestation of militant Islamism as simply a public-relations problem for "Muslims in the West." Imam Rauf has even gone so far as to bizarrely say that the 9/11 terrorists were "not Muslims."

As controversy over the project has become heated, Rauf's Web site has scrubbed the term "mosque" in exchange for "center" -- again missing the boat of why so many Americans are offended. (Meanwhile, the plans of another local Islamic group to rebuild near Ground Zero only added to the quandary.) This is not about the building of a mosque or a religious facility. It is not about religious freedom. This is about a deep, soulful understanding of what happened to our country on 9/11.

When Americans are attacked, they come together as one, under one flag, under one law against a common enemy that we are not afraid to identify. Religious freedom is central to our nation - and that is why the location of this project is so misguided. Ground Zero is purely about being American. It can never be about being Muslim. The World Trade Center site represents Ground Zero in America's war against radical Islamists who seek to destroy the American way of life. It is not ground zero of a cultural exchange.

We American Muslims cannot merely passively avoid Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots. We need to ask ourselves: Are we Americans who happen to be Muslim or Muslims blindly demanding to be American? American Muslims will be better served if this project is built further away from Ground Zero and focuses on leading a reform effort. If we help build anything at the WTC site itself, it should be timeless memorials to all those who lost their lives on 9/11 -- memorials blind to faith, race, creed or national origin. On Sept. 12, 2001, I was first an American. When those planes hit the World Trade Center, they hit at the core of my being as an American. The attack on my faith by the terrorists was secondary to their attack on my homeland. We need to focus our efforts more transparently on teaching Muslim youth that the American concepts of liberty and freedom are preferable to sharia and the Islamic state. American Muslims represent the best opportunity to fight Islamist radicalization not because we understand Islam but because we have experienced and understood what American liberty provides to the Muslim experience.

Americans must always remember the horrors of 9/11 and must be vigilant in not allowing political Islam to wear down the principles that built our country.
This center is trying to change the narrative of 9/11 -- to diminish what happened at Ground Zero. That can only weaken us against the very real threat of Islamist radicalization.


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/mosque_unbecoming_QmXgG4QyGgz4ATF9v7cBDM#ixzz0tjtt 2G9A

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 02:03 PM
A comment from Pamela Geller at her website, Atlas Shrugs (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/help-get-the-911-mega-mosque-site-landmarked.html), in regard to what is going on at 45-47 Park Place ...


Pamela Geller said ...

It is looking down on Ground Zero. Whether you can "see" it or not is irrelevant. I have no doubt that a massive Islamic structure in that nabe is a supremacist declaration ---- based on history.

This nonsense "well, it's a block and a half away," and "well, you can't see it from there" -- that's all just irrelevant minutiae

It is a supremacist mosque in plan.

And if the piece of plane fell through 3 floors or 5 is also very much beside the point. The landing gear hit that building and destroyed it. They should not be using it for Friday prayer. It has the firemen's yellow hazard on it. There is no respect for our laws.

Consider the inaccuracies in Geller's description of the site.

1) "It is looking down on Ground Zero." No, it is blocked from view by the full block building at 100 Church Street, which rises taller than the full height of the building planned for 45-51 Park Place.

2) "... a massive Islamic structure ..." The plan is for 15 stories. "Massive"? Certainly not in the context of nearby buildings.

3) " ... that's all just irrelevant minutiae ..." No, they are facts. Why continue to repeat inaccuracies and falsehoods that do not accurately describe the site?

4) "The landing gear hit that building and destroyed it." 45 Park Place suffered some damage, but it was far from "destroyed." If the building had been "destroyed" then there would be no discussion of Landmarking the site.

5) "It has the firemen's yellow hazard on it." Just untrue. There is no "Do Not Enter" or "Vacate" order in effect for the site.

It's all propoganda to achieve one goal: "Stop the Ground Zero mega mosque"

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 02:34 PM
Geller and crew have come up with another lie to feed their followers:

They dishonestly claim that the Greenwich Village townhouse destroyed on March 6, 1970 by a bomb made by the Weather Underground was Landmarked due to that incident (and they use the name of Weatherman and punching bag for the right "Bill Ayers" continually when presenting that argument). They falsely claim that the LPC saw fit to Landmark that building due to that historic incident and further argue that the same type of historical criteria should now be used to give 45 Park Place Landmark status.

The fact is that the townhouse at 18 West 11th Street is NOT an individual Landmark. It is but one building within the Greenwich Village Historic District (MAP [pdf] (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/maps/greenwich_village.pdf); Designated April 29, 1969). The involvement of LPC for that site was merely in regard to a building designed to replace the destroyed building ...



The Local: The Weathermen Townhouse

The New York Observer (http://www.observer.com/2008/real-estate/local-weatherman-house)
By Lysandra Ohrstrom
October 19, 2008

... In August 1970, Mr. Wilkerson sold the property, just four months after his daughter Cathy reportedly emerged naked from the wreckage and went into hiding.

No. 18 remained vacant for the next eight years while architect Hugh Hardy, a partner at Hardy, Holzman, and Pfeiffer, battled with Community Board 2 and the Landmarks Preservation Commission over an exterior design plan that opponents said was too radical for the traditional block (http://www.thevillager.com/villager_18/talkingpoint_gold.html).

Enter David and Norma Langworthy, who quit Greenwich Village and the theater life for Philadelphia shortly after their 1943 marriage. The former set designer and his Broadway bride settled into their new roles as business executive and mother, but they vowed to return to New York. Nearly four decades and as many children later, the couple made good on their promise. In June 1977, they bought the vacant land at 18 West 11th Street, city records show, just a few doors away from the rented, basement apartment where Mr. Langworthy proposed.

Ms. Langworthy told The Times (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9915&p=193346&viewfull=1#post193346) in 1981 that her tears at a 1978 Landmarks hearing ultimately swayed community opponents. The Langworthys moved into their new home—a slightly-modified version of Mr. Hardy’s original vision, to preserve the scale and character of the block—in 1978. The bear has reportedly remained in the window ever since, but his ensemble changes according to the season.

Few remnants of West 11th Street’s more radical past remain, save for a pink peace sign spray-painted onto the trash container in front of No. 26, to the left of No. 18.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 02:42 PM
Mosque unbecoming
Not at Ground Zero
By M. ZUHDI JASSER
Thanks for posting this article.

Too bad some of us Americans have to be reminded by a Muslim immigrant of our culture's true strength. This is a general and genuine political commitment to tolerance, which though neither universal nor perfect, is a thousand times preferable to the frantic political-correctness blather that some spout to parade what they mistake for tolerance. Notice that Jasser doesn't.

We need to respect the opinions of persons who come here to become Americans, including Muslims. And we should never descend with those who hate us into the quagmire of malice; but by the same token we have no duty to respect those who hate us. Hatred always disqualifies respect.

And no, we're not perfect, and neither is our political system. But it is better than most, as Jasser reminds us.

And along with him, I'm certainly glad I don't live in an Islamic Republic under sharia law.

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 03:28 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed the article. I agree wholeheartedly with Jasser.

Jasser's statements (like those of Irshad Manji) are of great humanity....and uh... nuance.... indeed "preferable to the frantic political-correctness blather that some spout to parade what they mistake for tolerance."

Pamela Geller on the other hand, is a cautionary tale.

infoshare
July 17th, 2010, 03:40 PM
Thanks for posting this article.

. This is a general and genuine political commitment to tolerance, which though neither universal nor perfect, is a thousand times preferable to the frantic political-correctness blather that some spout to parade what they mistake for tolerance. Notice that Jasser doesn't.



Well said, and I entirely agree with both you and Jasser who spoke so eloquently and intelligently in that article posted below.

However, if I may draw a comparison to illustrate my point.. The new (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=175817) black panthers HATE white people (http://politisite.com/2010/07/07/video-new-black-panther-party-leader-i-hate-white-people-you-want-freedom-youre-going-to-have-to-kill-some-crackers/), - and unlike the islamists, they publicly state whatever hate they habor - yet I would not move to deny them their legal ‘rights’ to open a community center any where they want to put one in the great city.

Why, well not because of any agenda-driven liberal political correctness on my part: but because they simply are not a ‘clear-and-presen’t danger to the people of this city.

My 'tolerance' ends with any genuine threat to what I would broadly refer to as the ‘American way of life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_way)’ and the cultural values that term so solidly represents: and neither the New Black Panthers OR those who practice the Muslim religion are a serious threat to anyone.

That being said, I can tell you that it is very likely that this Mosque will be built; simply because the Mayor has publicy supported having it here – so IMHO, the fix is in my friends.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=175817

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 03:51 PM
The new black panthers HATE white people (http://politisite.com/2010/07/07/video-new-black-panther-party-leader-i-hate-white-people-you-want-freedom-youre-going-to-have-to-kill-some-crackers/), - and unlike the islamists, they publicly state exactly who they HATE - yet I would not move to deny them their legal ‘rights’ to open a community center any where they want to put one in New York City.

^ So the New Black Panther Party Leader says: ” I hate white people… you want freedom you’re going to have to kill some Crackers”

I'd have no problem seeing him denied a community center.

infoshare
July 17th, 2010, 04:00 PM
I'd have no problem seeing him denied a community center.

Well, that is the whole point of my impassioned post: I do not see a real threat: but you and many others would - whose to say which position is rational or justifiable.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 04:16 PM
If he's not a real threat, it's certainly not for lack of trying.

Though not especially numerous, nor successful in overthrowing governments, you could say the Anarchists of 1880 posed little real threat to world order.

By 1914, they had succeeded in igniting the Great War. Chapter II of this started in 1939, and its successor, the Cold War, began in 1945 and didn't end till the Century's last decade. Though it didn't turn out exactly as they intended, you could say that all of us were born into the world the Anarchists helped create.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 04:21 PM
So, if there's to be no new larger building at 45 Park Place then what is the consensus on continuing the existing use as a site for Muslims to gather in prayer -- as has been taking place there since the new owner purchased the site on Park Place?

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 04:27 PM
Well, that is the whole point of my impassioned post: I do not see a real threat: but you and many others would - whose to say which position is rational or justifiable.


infoshare I do understand your post and I admire your pacific live-and-let-live philosopy, but I do have to say I do see his statements as a threat. And extremely dangerous.

If a White leader of any group said the following: " I hate black people… you want freedom you’re going to have to kill some N-----s”

What would you say to that? Would you want his Community Center over by you?

heatsketch
July 17th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Media Matters is a partisan group of liars, yet you take them at their word.

The facts are:

This group is being built by the Muslim American Society

The Muslim American Society is a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a supremacist organization that supports and encourages violent Jihad attacks around the world. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The FBI in 1993 seized a Muslim Brotherhood memoradum that stated thus:

"The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah’s religion is made victorious over all other religions."

The Muslim American Society was just one of the groups listed in that same memorandum as important Brotherhood fronts (along with the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the Islamic Circle of North America).

Imam Rauf, the main public face of the Cordoba Initiative, has stated to Arabic newspapers that he doesn't believe in religious dialogue, and that funding for the mosque partly comes from foreign sources.

Historically, when Muslims conquered a land or nation, they would build a mosque on the site of the battle that brought them victory. This is completely analagous to that. The very name "Cordoba" stems from the "Great Mosque of Cordoba", which was built on the ruins of a destroyed cathedral after the Moorish invasion of Spain.

I have no problem with mosques. I do, however, have a great problem with a mosque being built and funded by Islamic supremacists and Jihadis.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 04:44 PM
... you could say that all of us were born into the world the Anarchists helped create.

The bullet from the Anarchist merely lit the fuse for the nearly inevitable WWI. All the major powers were poised for battle before the assassins' struck in June 1914. They made fast work of it, and were fully at it within a couple of months.

In that phrase change the term "Anarchists" to any group or individual who has fought to re-balance the power structure and you can trace the history of mankind going back to the beginning.

In the line of thought as presented, did not the 19th C Industrialists - who saw fit to treat their workers as expendable, allowing them to be used until they were worn out or dead - have equal responsibility for creating the threat to the world that existed? Or were those workers just part of the "collateral damage" whose deaths seem to be acceptable when done in the name of those with the larger store of weapons and power?

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 04:47 PM
Looks like Atlas Shrugs has pulled into port ...




Media Matters is a partisan group of liars, yet you take them at their word.


Same can be said for Pamela Geller and crew.

infoshare
July 17th, 2010, 04:49 PM
If a White leader of any group said the following: " I hate black people… you want freedom you’re going to have to kill some N-----s”

What would you say to that? Would you want his Community Center over by you?

There are still some KKK type groups around that say those sort of things - an hold various public events - in the US: no need to outlaw screwballs. I would say " I would not MOVE TO BLOCK their Right " to have a community center.

But, anyway. Let try not to drift-off into a talk about BLACk/White racial issues: the New Black Panthers - as I said - was used only "to illustrate a point". Thanks for your input - I've said my piece on topic for today.

The main contention I clearly stated was regarding the question of 'perceived threat' : if you 'see a threat' , from Marz/Black Panthers/wherever - fine, I do not.
Cheers

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 04:49 PM
So, if there's to be no new larger building at 45 Park Place then what is the consensus on continuing the existing use as a site for Muslims to gather in prayer -- as has been taking place there since the new owner purchased the site on Park Place?
Sounds OK to me --especially if he fixes up those two nice old buildings.

The problem has always been insensitivity to the brash, imperial symbolism of the new building: its size, its aggressive Islamic demeanor. I can see why relatives of 9/11 victims are offended.

The Sufi Imam could take lessons in decorum from Dr. Jasser.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Historically, when Muslims conquered a land or nation, they would build a mosque on the site of the battle that brought them victory. This is completely analagous to that. The very name "Cordoba" stems from the "Great Mosque of Cordoba", which was built on the ruins of a destroyed cathedral after the Moorish invasion of Spain.

I have no problem with mosques. I do, however, have a great problem with a mosque being built and funded by Islamic supremacists and Jihadis.

Just like the Catholics did to existing Aztec, Mayan & Inca temples all over the New World.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 04:54 PM
The problem has always been insensitivity to the brash, imperial symbolism of the new building: its size, its aggressive Islamic demeanor.

Do you have an equal problem with the very large cross made from recovered WTC steel placed outside St. Peter's Church on Church Street 1/2 block from the WTC site (aka The World Trade Center (WTC) Cross (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r4pKC4_aP8))?

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 05:10 PM
Nope.

Those folks didn't target the World Trade Center.



(Absurd question.)

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 05:11 PM
(And an equally absurd reply ;) )

But there's the crux of it. In some people's eyes all Muslims are the guilty party.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 05:16 PM
Just like the Catholics did to existing Aztec, Mayan & Inca temples all over the New World.
So what?

That was then and this now.

Shall we wring our hands over a 500-year old act? You sound like MidtownGuy.

Most folks don't see themselves as the Conquistador's descendants, and even if they did, the question remains: so what?

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 05:18 PM
But, anyway. Let try not to drift-off into a talk about BLACk/White racial issues

^ amen


------




This group is being built by the Muslim American Society



(I imagine you wanted to say "this mosque" or "this center".

But whatever: Is this true? Is there evidence that the Muslim American Society is involved?


---




I have no problem with mosques. I do, however, have a great problem with a mosque being built and funded by Islamic supremacists and Jihadis.


Absolutely....but I'd like to see some hard evidence if it is true in this case.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 05:19 PM
In some people's eyes all Muslims are the guilty party.
The word "all" is yours. For the victims' relatives, 19 is enough.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 05:21 PM
So what?

That was then and this now.

Shall we wring our hands over a 500-year old act? You sound like MidtownGuy.

Most folks don't see themselves as the Conquistador's descendants, and even if they did, the question remains: so what?

Well, if you'd bothered to follow the thread you'd notice I was responding to a new poster claiming dastardly deeds by Muslims over a 1,000 years ago.

Don't see you calling him out for that :cool:

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 05:22 PM
The word "all" is yours. For the victims' relatives, 19 is enough.

And what did those 19 murderers have to do with the building planned for Park Place?

infoshare
July 17th, 2010, 05:28 PM
"And an equally absurd reply"



LOFTER1, you offer great (and much appreciated) links & news on architecture/nyc infrastructure: but your commentary & rebuttals all to often amount to nothing more than vapid verbiage - possibly intended to do nothing more than 'shout-down' dissenting views. Sorry, Lofter - carry on: as I know you will.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 05:33 PM
It's all symbolic. Symbol has a powerful grasp on the mind.

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 05:36 PM
Infoshare: Nah.... I think Lofter is playing the devils advocate (so to speak) as well as offering a worthy opposing view.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 05:36 PM
"And an equally absurd reply"

... nothing but vapid verbiage - simply intended to do nothing more than 'shout-down' dissenting views. Sorry, Lofter - carry on: as I know you will.

Oy boy ... Here we go again.

Sometimes those dissenting views need deeper examination.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 05:37 PM
Well, if you'd bothered to follow the thread you'd notice I was responding to a new poster claiming dastardly deeds by Muslims over a 1,000 years ago.

Don't see you calling him out for that :cool:
I'll call him out for that.

I can't remember 1,000 years ago, but I can remember 10.



When should we stop blaming Germans for what they did 70 years ago?

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 05:43 PM
I can't remember 1,000 years ago, but I can remember 10.


Looking back 9 years to 2001, can you make the clear and indisputable link between the 19 killers and those who have a plan for 45 Park Place?

infoshare
July 17th, 2010, 05:50 PM
I'll call him out for that.



It is too late: everybody has already left the room. The king of bla,bla,bla wins by default.

But, don't let me rain on your parade.

cheers

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 05:50 PM
Looking back 9 years to 2001, can you make the clear and indisputable link between the 19 killers and those who have a plan for 45 Park Place?

If the claim that American Muslim Society is behind this or that there is Saudi funding then you probably could by a few degrees of separation.

Fabrizio
July 17th, 2010, 05:58 PM
your commentary & rebuttals all to often amount to nothing more than vapid verbiage


It is too late: everybody has already left the room. The king of bla,bla,bla wins by default.

But, don't let me rain on your parade.



^Those posts have such a zippy verve to them.... an urban, midtown quality....

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 06:00 PM
It is too late: everybody has already left the room. The king of bla,bla,bla wins by default.


Not really -- Some of us are still here and actually discussing the subject of the thread.

lofter1
July 17th, 2010, 06:16 PM
If the claim that American Muslim Society is behind this ...

Is a "claim" of linkage enough?

There are those posting here and elsewhere who continue to toss around the accusations that MAS is directly linked to the group behind Cordoba House, but I've not seen anything that substantiates the claims.

It seems it depends upon what one requires to establish a link between the two.

ablarc
July 17th, 2010, 06:43 PM
... and the CIA ain't talkin'.


I'm checking out, too.


I'll leave a few words from a friend in England:


For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th’ oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of disprized love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th’ unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin?

Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 12:02 PM
Kristin Davis calls on New York Senators Schumer and Gillibrand to oppose Mosque at Ground Zero

LibertarianRepublican.net (http://www.libertarianrepublican.net/2010/07/kristin-davis-calls-on-new-york.html)
July 17, 2010

From Eric Dondero:

Kristin Davis is the Anti-Prohibition Party candidate for Governor of New York. She is a Libertarian. She is a follower of individual liberty philosopher Ayn Rand and a devotee of free market economics. She is a staunch supporter of drug legalization. She is also pro-defense and a patriot.

At her Birthday bash in New York City Saturday night, surrounded by celebrity invitees and supporters, Davis told the crowd she opposes the Mosque proposed near Ground Zero:


"this isn't about religious freedom this is about a monument to the attacks on America on 9-11."

Davis continued:

"If I can ask you to be serious for one minute in a night which is supposed to be a party I want to talk about something I feel very, very strongly about- I do not want a Mosque built near the 9/11 sight. I think it is wrong and would be held up as an important propaganda victory by radical extremist Islamics. The people of New York, the families of those murdered oppose this monument to the attack on this country."

Davis called on US Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand to pass federal legislation to block the Mosques construction.

*

"Hot Shot" of NYS Candidate for Governor, Kristin Davis (http://www.kristindavis2010.com/):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Zm6JXvXXze4/TELuGaROJ8I/AAAAAAAAMTs/mxUKil3ehug/s1600/KristinHotShot.jpg

Fabrizio
July 18th, 2010, 12:05 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Zm6JXvXXze4/TELuGaROJ8I/AAAAAAAAMTs/mxUKil3ehug/s1600/KristinHotShot.jpg


^
ground zero

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 12:10 PM
LOL -- We're cross posting, Fab ... I moved this post to make room for your great reply ...




Davis called on US Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand to pass federal legislation to block the Mosques construction.


Interesting that a self-professed Libertarian, "free market" advocate and supplicant to Ayn Rand should call for "federal legislation" to overpower what is by all indications a state & local issue involving the rights of an owner to use private property as the owner sees fit.

Next thing you know folks will be calling for Eminent Domain to grab the property.

Sherpa
July 18th, 2010, 12:13 PM
She looks like she works at that place on Murray St. (She is a "she", right?)

Sherpa
July 18th, 2010, 12:16 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Zm6JXvXXze4/TELuGaROJ8I/AAAAAAAAMTs/mxUKil3ehug/s1600/KristinHotShot.jpg


^
ground zero

.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 12:28 PM
She looks like she works at that place on Murray St.

I think she works out of her home office.

ZippyTheChimp
July 18th, 2010, 12:46 PM
Kristin Davis is the Anti-Prohibition Party candidate for Governor of New York. She is a Libertarian.

Davis called on US Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand to pass federal legislation to block the Mosques construction.So another idiot wants to be governor. Why not.

Even Lazio has stopped short of this, only calling for an investigation into funding. He, like the others, knows any such legislation is a clear-cut violation of the Constitution.

Kristen, you don't know enough about the law to run for office, but you've already got the qualifications to be a congressional aide.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 01:53 PM
Using the premise of "Pre-Emptive War" -- fighting what might happen in the future -- to block the plan ...

The Insidious Ground Zero Mosque

The Rule of Reason blogspot (http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/2010/07/insidious-ground-zero-mosque.html)
Posted by Edward Cline
July 1, 2010

I will begin with a comparison between two buildings, because a question of property rights entered recent debates and disputations about the propriety of the Ground Zero mosque, the rightness or wrongness of opposing its construction, and the nature of Islam itself. This mosque, to be called “Cordoba House,” is just a brief walk from Ground Zero in New York City. Its construction, to replace a private office building damaged on 9/11, has been approved by a city council [NOTE: This is incorrect, as the City Council won't weigh in on this until after LPC makes their decision]. But, first allow me to discuss another building.

Years ago Korean Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Unification Church, bought a defunct, former first-class hotel in Manhattan, the New Yorker, and turned it into a center for the propagation of his religion, and also as a dorm and office space for his local followers ...

The Moonies have faded from memory. The Islamists, however, do not want us to forget Islam ...

Many believe that opposing the Ground Zero mosque would be a violation of property rights. But where do property rights enter the picture? They do not, as least as far as mosque-building Muslims are concerned. Mosques are centers of indoctrination and propaganda, and of exhortations to wage war against the infidel -- us. Mosques are venues for spreading and entrenching Islam. They are field headquarters of conquest, and they have sprung up all over the country. The piety and good citizenship standing of the flocks of rank-and-file Muslims are irrelevant. They subscribe to the ideology, do not question it, and remain silent when their brethren blow up things and kill people. Their creed commands the silence, but it is still a matter of choice, of volition, and Muslims as a rule choose to remain silent. No man of reason should sympathize with them.

Some have cited the 14th Amendment as an intrinsic good to be brought to the defense of the builders of the Ground Zero mosque, forgetting that, first, that Amendment has been violated countless ways by our own government, and second, that we are indeed at war with Islam and its advocates. To iterate: Just as we were at war with Nazism, another body of inimical ideas (Hitler was its Mohammed, and he sought the help of Muslims to exterminate Jews in Palestine), we are at war with Islam. Islam respects neither individual rights, nor property rights, nor capitalism. It is a holistic vehicle for conquest and subjugation of all who do not subscribe to it. Period.

... We are living in an unprecedented time, when this country is under attack by secular jihadists in the White House, and religious ones from Mecca and Medina, both sides demanding unquestioning obedience from Americans, and no one is doing much about it. This is the larger picture -- an aerial photograph of the battlefield, if you will -- that must be grasped. It is and it is not about “property rights.”

... There’s no reconciliation possible between reason and faith, between reason and Islam. So, even though it may seem futile, I am opposed to the Ground Zero mosque, because of its symbolic power, because it is evidence of an invasion of this country by an alien philosophy inimical to my life and limb, because its backers are necessarily linked to terrorism and the jihad being waged against this county, and because I refuse to grant Islam any semblance of respect or advantage.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 02:03 PM
... and the CIA ain't talkin'.


The CIA usually doesn't blab about what they're investigating. Nor does the FBI.

Seems that a Muslim center in downtown Manhattan could serve well those who fear the participants' activities and want to monitor their presence. Fits in with the saying: "Keep your friends close, your enemies closer."

Given the plans for the "Lower Manhattan Security Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Manhattan_Security_Initiative)" and its untold number of cameras and monitoring devices to be installed south of Chambers Street, this location on Park Place is perfectly placed to be under constant surveillance.

btw: Mayor Mike is also looking into creating a surveillance "Ring of Steel" in Midtown (http://dnainfo.com/20100511/manhattan/mayor-michael-bloomberg-looks-bring-londons-ring-of-steel-midtown), so watchful eyes will be just about everywhere.

ZippyTheChimp
July 18th, 2010, 02:49 PM
Who is this guy?

Shouldn't be assumed that because you have a blog, you know what you're talking about.


Posted by Edward Cline
July 1, 2010

Many believe that opposing the Ground Zero mosque would be a violation of property rights. But where do property rights enter the picture?Does he make any case about property rights?


Some have cited the 14th Amendment as an intrinsic good to be brought to the defense of the builders of the Ground Zero mosque1st Amendment, Ed.


forgetting that, first, that Amendment has been violated countless ways by our own government,Not something you want to say in court.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 03:51 PM
Who is this guy?


Edward Cline? Somebody I eventually found -- between coffee and the British Open -- while digging around to see where the winds on Park Place are blowing.

He's a blogger at "The Center for the Advancement of Capitalism" and other places (and, according to Wikipedia, an author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Cline), whose "strongest influence has been the philosopher-novelist Ayn Rand").

Cline was linked by this blogging guy (http://blog.ariarmstrong.com/2010/07/three-arguments-for-blocking-cordoba.html) in a very long post on his "Free Colorado" blog and who termed Cline's post as "thoughtful" ...



Three Arguments for Blocking Cordoba House

Cordoba House, the proposed Islamic center (http://blog.ariarmstrong.com/2010/06/cordoba-house-and-real-feisal-abdul.html) within the damage zone of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York, richly deserves moral condemnation. Whether it should be forcibly blocked is another matter. Here my goal is to explain and engage the three most important arguments for blocking the construction of Cordoba House. I conclude that, while two arguments don't succeed, a third might.

[ ... ]

3. "Cordoba House is uniquely positioned to promote violent Islam."

Even though Cordoba House's organizers have explicitly denounced terrorism, at least in the abstract, and even if they actively discourage terrorism, still Cordoba House might prove to be an especially strong lure to would-be terrorists, precisely because of its location. Even if Cordoba House's official policy opposes terrorism, the center's managers cannot hope to monitor the private meetings that take place within its walls. It might, then, become a place where potential terrorists meet and hatch their plans.

This seems to be the point Edward Cline is arguing in his recent, thoughtful article (http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/2010/07/insidious-ground-zero-mosque.html).

The Free Colorado guy then goes on to explain why the mosque must be stopped pre-emptively -- because of the possible dangers that may / might occur within ...



To me, this third argument is by far the strongest rationale offered for blocking Cordoba House. The United States government could essentially state, "Look, we have good evidence that at least some people who would attend Cordoba House have evil intentions, and, given we are in the middle of prosecuting a war, we don't have the resources right now to investigate all the related issues. Therefore, until we have decisively won the war, your religious center is on hold, on the grounds of wartime emergency."

ablarc
July 18th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Has she learned from Sarah Palin how to run for the position of governor?

I agree with her about Ground Zero and the big ol' mosque. They can find another place for it that's less offensive.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 04:02 PM
This phraseology is something I'm seeing popping up all around where Cordoba House is being discussed ...




Cordoba House, the proposed Islamic center (http://blog.ariarmstrong.com/2010/06/cordoba-house-and-real-feisal-abdul.html) within the damage zone of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York ...

It is all part of an attempt for the new delineation of space downtown, and in line with efforts to have a wider area declared some type of National War Memorial Historic District. Interesting that in all the time when plans for the WTC site were discussed ad infinitum in the years immediately following 9/11 that such a scheme to push the area north to Park Place was not part of the discussion.

Then some guys announce they're going to build a Muslim center and lo and behold ...

ablarc
July 18th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Things change.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 04:19 PM
There's a huge irony in all these Libertarian Randians calling for Federal intervention, seemingly fearful that the local yokels are incapable of fending for themselves.

ablarc
July 18th, 2010, 06:32 PM
The local yokels are politically correct. The libertarians are not.



(You knew that.)

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 08:12 PM
Shouldn't assume I know anything of the sort ;) .

The locals are less fearful.

These so-called Libertarians seem to go for whatever they can grab, whether or not it's anchored in any core principle, to suit their own interest and purpose.

lofter1
July 18th, 2010, 08:47 PM
But let's turn to someone oh so much wiser -- and with something to say ...

Palin's Bigoted Twitter Calls on Muslims to "Refudiate"

The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-dunn/palins-bigoted-twitter-cal_b_650562.html)
Geoffrey Dunn
July 18, 2010

Echoing the bigoted and right-wing contortions of the National Republican Trust PAC and disgraced Tea Party leader Mark Williams, Sarah Palin has sent the world of Twitter on fire this afternoon, with a series of Tweets about the proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center

She pulled down one of them after concocting the word "refudiate" and then used the word "refute" incorrectly.


Ground Zero Mosque supporters: doesn't it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland? Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate


Peaceful New Yorkers, pls refute the Ground Zero mosque plan if you believe catastrophic pain caused @ Twin Towers site is too raw, too real.

She then pulled the second attempt down and took a third swipe at it.


Peace-seeking Muslims pls understand. Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts. Pls reject it in interest of healing

"Peaceful," "peace-seeking"? Why the qualifier? How about "peaceful Christians"? And as if Sarah Palin knows anything about "healing." Perhaps that's the biggest joke of all.

Well, not quite. She then compared herself to none other than the Great Bard himself.

'Refudiate,' 'misunderestimate,' 'wee-wee'd up.' English is a living language. Shakespeare liked to coin new words too. Got to celebrate it!'

(Thanks to palingates for the screen saves (http://palingates.blogspot.com/2010/07/how-much-stupid-can-governor-dumbass.html).)

*

From palingates (http://palingates.blogspot.com/2010/07/how-much-stupid-can-governor-dumbass.html) (where there's a whole stream of twats -- or whatever they're called -- including a classic reply from Roger Ebert (http://twitter.com/ebertchicago/status/18864050423)) ...

How much stupid can Governor Dumbass of Backasswards Sarah Palin fit into 140 characters? - Palin refudiates Shakespeare's language on twitter

...

Now she thinks she is Shakespeare!

Sarah, Shakespeare liked to coin new phrases as well:



"Comparisons are odorous"

*


Urgent to @SarahPalinUSA: Shakespeare would rather have died than "coin" the meaningless non-word "misunderestimate."

about 4 hours ago via web

ebertchicago
Roger Ebert

lofter1
July 19th, 2010, 12:03 AM
Lest we forget, Mama Grizzly reportedly has a degree in journalism (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/palin-attended-5-colleges_n_124036.html) ...

“Refudiating” Palin’s Racist Tweet

The Mudflats (http://www.themudflats.net/2010/07/18/refudiating-palins-racist-tweet/)
Shannyn Moore
july 18, 2010

http://shannynmoore.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/twit.jpg

It feels strange weighing in on a house of worship thousands of miles away, well, at least for me. A proposed mosque two blocks from Ground Zero has Palin tweeting on a Sunday afternoon.

According to Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0710/39899.html#ixzz0u5Rh8qtQ):



Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s City Hall hit back at Palin, first tweeting “@SarahPalinUSA mind your business.”

The aide, policy hand Andrea Batista Schlesinger, followed that up with:

“@SarahPalinUSA whose hearts? Racist hearts?”

Bloomberg has defended the plan for the mosque, arguing that blocking it would impinge on religious freedom

This is a local issue for New Yorkers. I’m weighing in on Sarah Palin. She’s local for Alaskans ...

*

Palin triggers NY mosque Twitter fray

POLITICO (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0710/39899.html#ixzz0u5Rh8qtQ)
By MAGGIE HABERMAN
7/18/10

Sarah Palin, who waded into a New York political fight by endorsing Ann Marie Buerkle in NY-25, is drifting into a decidedly higher-charged battle: The fray over a planned mosque near Ground Zero.

"Peace-seeking Muslims, pls understand, Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts. Pls reject it in interest of healing," she tweeted Sunday.

The building’s planners, the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, have said it’s modeled on religious and community centers such as the YMCA, and that the 13-story, $100 million building would also include an arts center, gym and a swimming pool, as well as a mosque. It would be two blocks away from Ground Zero.

The project, which has become an increasingly partisan issue in New York, received a renewed burst of national attention when CBS and NBC rejected an ad from the National Republican Trust PAC that crosscut footage of the 9/11 attacks with the sounds of Muslim prayer.

"On Sept. 11, they declared war against us," a narrator says. "And to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous 13-story mosque at ground zero."

While a recent poll showed a majority of New Yorkers oppose the plan to build the mosque built near Ground Zero, an aide in Mayor Michael Bloomberg's City Hall hit back at Palin, first tweeting “@SarahPalinUSA mind your business."

The aide, policy hand Andrea Batista Schlesinger, followed that up with:

"@SarahPalinUSA whose hearts? Racist hearts?"

Schlesinger deleted both tweets shortly after a call was placed to city hall asking for comment on them.

"Andrea was only speaking for herself, and she has the right to her own opinions," said Bloomberg spokesman Stu Loeser.

Schlesinger posted threee new tweets Sunday evening, explaining why she wrote, and took down, her Palin response:

"Deleted post bc I regretted curt response. But fact is, I believe this city belongs to everyone - and no one more than another"

"Unlike @SarahPalinUSA, I was born here grew up here. Was showing off to a visitor today - look at how beautiful and diverse my city is."

"I felt pain of 9/11, the trauma. I got through it by believing in my city. Not through fear and hate."

Bloomberg has defended the plan for the mosque, arguing that blocking it would impinge on religious freedom, and he's denounced calls to look into the group's funding – led by Republican gubernatorial hopeful Rick Lazio in a bid to engage his rival, Democrat Andrew Cuomo – "un-American."

© 2010 Capitol News Company LLC

lofter1
July 19th, 2010, 12:25 AM
... CBS and NBC rejected an ad from the National Republican Trust PAC that crosscut footage of the 9/11 attacks with the sounds of Muslim prayer.


Too bad that WNY doesn't allow me to write F*** YOU to the National Republican Trust PAC.

This is about as despicable a load of fear mongering as we've yet seen.

The first lie is offered with the description below the vid:



A mosque is about to be erected on the hallowed acreage of lower Manhattan's Ground Zero.

The first words seen on the screen?



The audacity of JIHAD

Wonder what that alludes to? Ring a bell?

Then it goes on to lump all Muslims together with those who flew the planes into the towers. Overlaid with lots of choice images. In a further step to dehumanize Muslims the narrator never uses the word "Muslim" but, instead, uses the reference "THEY" over and over and over.

And then ends with the declaration that "We AMERICANS will be heard"

We, They, We, They, We , They ...

Structured so that coming together is an impossible act.

Nihilism posing as Patriotism.

Hateful.

Let's see how folks come down on this one.

I won't post the actual vid, but it can be viewed at YouTube:

Kill the Ground Zero Mosque TV Ad (Kill the Ground Zero Mosque TV Ad)

CitiesfromSpace
July 19th, 2010, 03:14 AM
Absolutely outrageous. Nothing short of true fascist goose-stepping. I'll be writing a couple letters tomorrow.

Fabrizio
July 19th, 2010, 03:29 AM
re: “Refudiating” Palin’s Racist Tweet

As much as I dislike Sara Palin, there was nothing in her tweet that was racist.

Now the ad from the National Republican Trust...that is another matter...

ablarc
July 19th, 2010, 08:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4&NR=1

Statun-Ilandur
July 19th, 2010, 08:32 AM
10037

Saint Peter’s is one half a block from the WTC. When this RC pagan style temple was built two centuries ago and approximately two blocks from New York City Hall, it must have been thought to have been an abomination to the English Protestant establishment. But it got built none the less. This is America.

America is about free movement and free thought. And freedom to worship.

Fabrizio
July 19th, 2010, 08:58 AM
" Saint Peter’s is one half a block from the WTC. When this RC pagan style temple was built two centuries ago and approximately two blocks from New York City Hall, it must have been thought to have been an abomination to the English Protestant establishment."

^??

Statun-Ilandur
July 19th, 2010, 09:11 AM
^??

?English Protestant aka W.A.S.P.- White Anglo Saxon Protestant

Ever read 1876 by Gore Vidal?

Fabrizio
July 19th, 2010, 09:22 AM
Pagan Style temple? It's in a Neo classical, Greek revival style which was by that time the US's national architectural style.

Statun-Ilandur
July 19th, 2010, 09:32 AM
Since the subject is architecture - touche.

Fabrizio
July 19th, 2010, 09:34 AM
Now don't get me wrong, I like the Pagan Style too.

( Fabrizio is having a Kristin Davis moment)

lofter1
July 19th, 2010, 06:15 PM
Peace-Seeking Muslims Should Refudiate Sarah Palin

The ATLANTIC (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/07/peace-seeking-muslims-should-refudiate-sarah-palin/59997/)
Jeffrey Goldberg
JUL 19 2010

Sarah Palin has called on "peace-seeking Muslims" to "refudiate" plans by the The Cordoba Initiative, a Muslim organization, to build a mosque and community center near the site of Ground Zero. After someone alerted her to the fact that "refudiate" isn't actually a word, she deleted the original tweet and sent out two more: "Peaceful New Yorkers, pls refute the Ground Zero mosque plan if you believe catastrophic pain caused @ Twin Towers site is too raw, too real," and, "Peace-seeking Muslims, pls understand, Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts. Pls reject it in interest of healing."

Let's put aside the issue of "refudiation" for a moment; the larger issue here is the intent of the Cordoba Initiative, which is trying to build the mosque. I know the people who run the initiative; they are, for lack of a better term, "peace-seeking Muslims." I spoke at a program co-sponsored by Cordoba last year, and I came to understand that the organization is interested mainly in battling extremism within Islam, and in building bridges to non-Muslim faiths. It seems to me that its mission makes Cordoba an appropriate fit for Ground Zero. One of the ways to prevent future Ground Zeroes is to encourage moderation within Islam, and to treat Muslim moderates differently than we treat Muslim extremists. The campaign against this mosque treats all Muslims as perpetrators. This is a terrible mistake, for moral and strategic reasons. I'm afraid that Sarah Palin, if she were ever to become President, would help create what Muslim extremists have so far unsuccessfully sought to provoke: an all-out clash of civilizations.

*

Jeffrey Goldberg (http://www.theatlantic.com/jeffrey-goldberg/#toggleBio) is a National Correspondent for The Atlantic. Before joining The Atlantic in 2007, he was Middle East correspondent, and Washington correspondent, for the New Yorker. Previously, he served as a correspondent for the New York Times Magazine, and New York Magazine. He has also written for the Forward, and was a columnist for The Jerusalem Post.

His book Prisoners has been hailed as one of the best books of 2006 by the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Slate Magazine, the Progressive, Washingtonian Magazine, and Playboy. Goldberg is the recipient of the 2003 National Magazine Award for Reporting for his coverage of Islamic terrorism. He is also the winner of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists prize for best international investigative journalist; the Overseas Press Club award for best human rights reporting; and the Abraham Cahan Prize in Journalism. He is also the recipient of 2005's Anti-Defamation League Daniel Pearl Prize.

In 2001, Goldberg was appointed the Syrkin Fellow in Letters of the Jerusalem Foundation and was appointed in 2002 to be a public policy scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, D.C.

COPYRIGHT © 2010 BY THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY GROUP

lofter1
July 19th, 2010, 06:18 PM
re: “Refudiating” Palin’s Racist Tweet

... there was nothing in her tweet that was racist.


Often when people write or say "Racist" they really should use "Bigoted" -- which is more comprehensive and, in this instance, a better fit.

ablarc
July 19th, 2010, 06:36 PM
^ True. Language to the rescue, eh?

Travis
July 20th, 2010, 03:56 PM
Well, if we're going to go down the road to bigotry let's make it against the law to build anything even remotely related to Islam within two miles of any school, mall, park or military recruitment center. Oh and let's make it illegal for a synagogue to be built anywhere near any bank while we're at it.

In fact, why stop there? Let's just march those people right into "relocation camps" so we can make sure only "true Americans" are left.

Fabrizio
July 20th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Yes! And tell the the CIA and FBI to quit poking their noses into the goings on in those Mosques: It's totally unfair. Why aren't they doing it to Lutheran Churches or to the Episcopalians?

ablarc
July 20th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Folks are much less bigoted in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq; they kill mostly Muslims. Quite often in mosques. Especially during pilgrimages and prayers (higher body counts in a crowd).

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 09:41 AM
45 Park Place’s Place

NY OBSERVER (http://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/45-park-place’s-place)
By Emily Geminder
July 20, 2010

It's an unlikely sanctuary, the room filling quietly with worshippers. It might be a deserted trading floor or a hastily thrown-up sound stage—the industrial carpeting running wide and clean and a little unrelenting, the matted electric cords and walls that don't quite reach the ceiling. There's a sketchlike quality of impermanence that might be any of a thousand anonymous spaces downtown, filling according to invisible rhythms, empty one minute, crowded the next.

It's in part because of all this or maybe despite it that when Haroon Moghul, a tall doctoral student with an easy laugh, launches into the Friday afternoon sermon, the words, "We seek refuge and sanctuary," take on sudden weight.

The Financial District building that recently sprung to the center of national debate, several raucous city meetings and one twice-rejected, ominously intoned National Republican Trust-sponsored ad—"They want to build a monstrous 13-story mosque at Ground Zero"—has, for close to a year now, been the space where hundreds of Muslims gather quietly to read from the Koran and to pray.

Well-pressed men slip out of shoes, pocket their iPhones. The owner of a nearby Halal cart fans himself with a hat. A woman closes her eyes and fingers a strand of prayer beads. For all the national clamor, prayers go on the way they always do. Every so often, the chanting gives way to the staccato undertow of Lower Manhattan—the sharp slant of a siren, a loading dock's grating tug—but mostly it's quiet.

Among the worshippers is Sharif El-Gamal, a member of the congregation that has been praying in Lower Manhattan for five decades. He is also head of Soho Properties, the firm that purchased the Park Place building last year with the intent to build an Islamic community center. Recently rechristened Park51, the endeavor would include prayer space, a 500-seat performing arts center, a library, a culinary school, child-care facilities and a swimming pool.

The plan-still embryonic, Mr. El-Gamal hastens to interject-has a kind of wild ambition to it, the imaginative urge, like all real architecture, to make the world over again. "We're looking to build something that's never been done before in the city," the Brooklyn-born developer says, sitting cross-legged in the makeshift prayer space. "We have a very ambitious project, and we want to have a very ambitious design. When people come to New York, we want them to come to Park51 just to look at the architecture."

Cleared by the local community board, supported by a roster of city officials from City Council Speaker Christine Quinn to Mayor Bloomberg, the project now just requires a vote by the Landmarks Preservation Commission to proceed. On an unset date later this summer, the commission will determine whether the current building, damaged by landing gear on Sept. 11, merits landmark designation, a decision that could potentially block future construction. Though the building was considered for—and not granted—landmark status more than 20 years ago, the fevered pitch of a public hearing on the matter last week leaves little certain about its future.

What will happen if the commission votes to landmark the building?

"We're praying and hoping for the best," says Mr. El-Gamal. "We believe."

THE PROCESS BY which New York landmarks its buildings takes place mostly in drab backrooms, with municipal-minded retirees in bow ties the primary witnesses. Even considering the operatic Jane Jacobs-Robert Moses epic the city reenacts every decade or so, little could have prepared the commission's members for the hearing on July 13, which included one police-escorted departure, innumerable rounds of heckling and legions of the most ardent preservationists the city has ever seen. Technicalities of architectural merit were met with thunderous whoops of endorsement.

"They're unique," a woman declared of the building's cast-iron Italian Renaissance palazzo features. "They're a special group of buildings that are never going to be built again."

"Yeah!" a man with a neck tattoo shouted in solidarity.

Campaigning politicians also made guest appearances, cast as the unlikely foes of development. A question posed by Republican gubernatorial hopeful Rick Lazio—why was a building of a similar style landmarked over this one?—drew cheers. (Later, speaking to reporters, the candidate ventured into less technical terrain, suggesting that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf—one of the project's leaders and an active member of the interfaith community—has radical ties.)

Despite the chorus on the other side, the building in question has its share of naysayers as well—chief among them Mr. El-Gamal, who hired the architectural consulting firm AKRF to evaluate its merit. "We don't feel that it has the significance of an individual landmark," he says. "This is not the Woolworth building. This is not the Chrysler Building. ... There are 30 different buildings in this submarket that deserve landmark status before this one."

The building was completed in 1858, when the sky-swallowing chasm of today's Financial District was a trading hub with a more tangible output, mostly dry goods and textiles. Erected for a prominent New York shipping magnate, like most buildings of its day, 45 Park Place was a throwback to an earlier era of European grandeur, the Italian palazzo intended to conjure up visions of economic might.

The structure was home to a Burlington Coat Factory when, 143 years later, the landing gear of a plane rocketed through its roof. It then sat empty for years, a mute skeleton of a building—the windows boarded up, metal gates yanked across its facade, the top floors in shambles. Today, letters spelling out "Burlington Coat Factory" are faint outlines in chipped paint.

Opponents of the community center are calling for the building to be turned into a war memorial, and there is precedent for granting landmark status to historically significant buildings. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory is a landmark, as is the townhouse inadvertently blown up by the Weather Underground. Park51's leaders, meanwhile, have also stated that a Sept. 11 memorial is part of their vision for the site. (Daisy Khan, Imam Feisal's wife, is, incidentally, an advisory member of the National September 11 Memorial and Museum.)

It's never been an easy question, of course: whether the city pays tribute to the past by enshrining its memory, or whether, in some cases, the past ripples out in all directions, stretching forward as well as back, into the city that is not yet here. And that city, the city rolling toward us, must find a way to be both for the living and for the dead.

THE FRIDAY AFTERNOON congregants vanish as quickly as they came, back to office buildings, back to midday's undulating heat. Two blocks away, the long necks of cranes rise and fall above ground zero, straining with unknowable cargo. A member of the congregation is quick to point out that his brother is among the workers there, rebuilding.

Mr. El-Gamal, meanwhile, darts back and forth between people, keeping pace with multiple conversations at once. On architects, he says, "Everybody's interested in this project. Everybody's offering us their services, and they want to be a part of this process. It's really been overwhelming."

More specifically? "A lot of big names." He stops to think a minute. "It's all big names."

Like any developer, Mr. El-Gamal is contending with air rights and space allocations, the arcane formulas by which Manhattan divides itself, a finite tract of space written and written over again. Real estate, like history, is an eternally contested site. The only sure thing is reinvention, the abiding law of creative destruction.

A building, in itself, is a kind of experiment in utopia, a captive orb. It unmakes the world and makes it over again. But a building in a city is something else: A long-shot speculative gamble, fugitive as time and precarious as community, it strikes at the place where unity and complexity move toward each other.

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 09:49 AM
A bit of sloppy journalism in that Observer piece, where the writer repeats the incorrect info about the Greenwich Village townhouse's landmark status (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23759&p=331126&viewfull=1#post331126), touted by many campaigning against the Cordoba plan as precedent for designating 45 Park Place on historic grounds:


Opponents of the community center are calling for the building to be turned into a war memorial, and there is precedent for granting landmark status to historically significant buildings. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory is a landmark, as is the townhouse inadvertently blown up by the Weather Underground.

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 12:48 PM
A Mosque Maligned

NY TIMES (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/a-mosque-maligned/)
By ROBERT WRIGHT
July 20, 2010, 9:03 PM

OPINIONATOR

Just to show you how naïve I am: When I first heard about the plan to build a mosque and community center two blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks, I didn’t envision any real opposition to it.

Sure, I can understand how some people traumatized by 9/11 — firefighters who survived it, or people whose loved ones didn’t — might not like the idea. But I’d have thought that opinion leaders of all ideological stripes could reach consensus by applying a basic rule of thumb: Just ask, “What would Osama bin Laden want?” and then do the opposite.

Bin Laden would love to be able to say that in America you can build a church or synagogue anywhere you want, but not a mosque. That fits perfectly with his recruiting pitch — that America has declared war on Islam. And bin Laden would thrill to the claim that a mosque near ground zero dishonors the victims of 9/11, because the unspoken premise is that the attacks really were, as he claims, a valid expression of Islam.

Apparently I was wrong. Two New York politicians — Representative Peter King and Rick Lazio, a candidate for governor — are ginning up opposition to the project, as is the Weekly Standard.

Their strategy is to ask dark questions about the motivations behind the project (known as Park51 because of its address on Park Place). Those motivations reside in an imam named Feisal Abdul Rauf, founder of the Cordoba Initiative and the American Society for Muslim Advancement, the project’s co-sponsors. So far as I can tell, Rauf is a good person who genuinely wants to build a more peaceful world. (I met him briefly last year at a venue where we had both been asked to give talks about compassion — his from an Islamic perspective, mine from a secular perspective. Here’s the talk he gave (http://charterforcompassion.org/learn/talks/imam-faisal-abdul-rauf).)

But if you think Rauf’s good intentions are going to keep him safe from the Weekly Standard, you underestimate that magazine’s creative powers. Its latest issue features an article about Park51 chock full of angles that never would have occurred to me if some magazine had asked me to write an assessment of the project’s ideological underpinnings. For example: Rauf’s wife, who often speaks in support of the project and during one talk reflected proudly on her Islamic heritage, “failed to mention another feature of her background: She is the niece of Dr. Farooq Khan, formerly a leader of the Westbury Mosque on Long Island, which is a center for Islamic radicals and links on its Web site to the paramilitary Islamic Circle of North America (I.C.N.A.), the front on American soil for the Pakistani jihadist Jamaat e-Islami.”

Got that? Rauf’s wife has an uncle who used to be “a leader” of a mosque that now has a Web site that links to the Web site of an allegedly radical organization. (I’ll get back to the claim that the Westbury Mosque is itself a “center for Islamic radicals.”)

The odd thing is that the author of this piece (http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/mosque-grows-near-brooklyn), Stephen Schwartz, is a self-described neoconservative whose parents were, by his own account, communists. You’d think he might harbor doubts about how confidently we can infer people’s ideologies from the ideologies of their older relatives. You’d also think he might disdain McCarthyite guilt-by-association tactics.

You’d be wrong. Schwartz’s piece goes on and on, weaving webs of association so engrossing that you have to keep reminding yourself that they have nothing to do with Rauf. At one point Schwartz spends several paragraphs damning someone whose connection to Park51 seems to consist of having spoken favorably about it.

As for the views of Rauf himself: In Schwartz’s universe, Rauf’s expressions of opposition to terrorism are themselves grounds for suspicion. Rauf, says Schwartz, has “cloaked the Cordoba effort in the rhetoric of reconciliation, describing himself and his colleagues as ‘the anti-terrorists.’”

Rauf has been the imam at a Manhattan mosque for a quarter of a century, so you’d think that, if he actually had radical views, there would be some evidence of that by now. Just to give you some idea of what solid evidence of radicalism looks like: Representative King, who shares the Weekly Standard’s grave suspicions about Rauf, supported (http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/5698316/peter-king-watch.thtml) the Irish Republican Army back when it was killing lots of innocent civilians. He raised money for the I.R.A. and said it was “the legitimate voice of occupied Ireland” and praised the “brave men and women who this very moment are carrying forth the struggle against British imperialism in the streets of Belfast and Derry” and in various other ways (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-01-10/the-terrorists-man-in-washington/?cid=hp:mainpromo6) backed this terrorist group. If Rauf’s past looked like King’s past, there would indeed be cause for concern.

A big question when reading any Weekly Standard piece about nefarious Muslims is: What is the operative definition of “radical”? This question is worth spending some time on, because if the Standard is defining the term loosely, then the six-degrees-of-separation chains it uses to link people to radicalism are even less relevant than they seem.

Apparently one Weekly Standard criterion for radicalism is support for Hamas. Thus, Schwartz notes that the real estate developer for the project has a business partner who has an uncle (you still with us?) who dramatically affirmed his support for Hamas after the recent blockade-running flotilla incident.

Now, there are a lot of Arabs and Muslims, including Americans, who don’t consider Hamas evil incarnate. You might divide Hamas “supporters” into two camps:

“Hard” supporters say that Palestinians were wrongly dispossessed of their land six decades ago and that brutal tactics are therefore warranted. So what I call a terrorist they consider a freedom fighter.

“Soft” supporters may not approve of all Hamas tactics, but they note the following: In 2006, Hamas, with American and Israeli approval, participated in a Palestinian election and won — and, right after this victory, there were signs that Hamas might be willing to abandon terrorism, at least provisionally. But Israel and the United States decided that, while it was fine for Hamas to participate in elections, winning was unacceptable, and Hamas wouldn’t be allowed to govern. So Hamas seized control of Gaza, and Israel then subjected the people of Gaza to a crippling economic blockade (which, even after the post-flotilla “loosening,” doesn’t let Gaza export anything to speak of). Forced to choose between Israel and Hamas in this standoff, these “soft” supporters side with Hamas.

I can see how Israelis would have a different view of Hamas, which not so long ago pursued a concerted strategy of killing Israeli civilians, and could revive that strategy any day and still hasn’t accepted Israel’s right to exist. It’s understandable that Israelis hate Hamas, and Americans, including the people at the Weekly Standard, have every right to share this hatred.

Still, the point is that, whether the Weekly Standard likes it or not, there are a number of Arabs and Muslims, including Americans, who in one sense or another support Hamas and who aren’t dangerously radical from an American perspective; they didn’t support the 9/11 attacks or the Fort Hood shooting or the would-be underwear bombing. So if we are going to stigmatize everyone who in any sense supports Hamas — or even associates with someone whose uncle supports Hamas — we are going to be tarring with a pretty broad brush, excluding from a crucial American dialogue too many people for the dialogue to be productive. (Thomas Friedman recently made a similar argument (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/opinion/18friedman.html?src=me&ref=general) in criticizing CNN’s reflexive firing of an editor who tweeted something favorable about a leader of Hezbollah after he died.)

So when Schwartz asserts that a Long Island mosque is a “center for Islamic radicals,” I personally have to suspend judgment until I hear from someone who has researched the matter and has a more useful definition of radicalism than Schwartz does. Meanwhile, I’ll just remind myself that this mosque has nothing to do with Rauf anyway.

One thing Peter King and Rick Lazio demand is that Rauf unequivocally denounce Hamas. In other words, they want him to go beyond just not being a professed supporter of Hamas and, in effect, criticize everyone who supports Hamas in even the “soft” sense.

No doubt Osama bin Laden, if apprised of the situation, would hope that Rauf will cave in to these demands and ritually denounce Hamas. Because the Muslims who are most vulnerable to bin Laden’s recruiting pitch are, it’s safe to say, at least somewhat sympathetic to Hamas. And if moderate Muslims like Rauf can be pressured into adopting Israel’s position, and thus be depicted by truly radical Muslims as Zionist tools, that will make them less effective in their tug of war with bin Laden for the hearts and minds of the vulnerable.

Pathetically, Rick Lazio seems to have made his demand for an “investigation” into Park51 the centerpiece-du-jour of his gubernatorial campaign. Happily, Mayor Bloomberg has shown true moral leadership and opposed Lazio’s demands in clear language. “Government should never — never — be in the business of telling people how they should pray, or where they can pray,” Bloomberg said last week. “We want to make sure that everybody from around the world feels comfortable coming here, living here and praying the way they want to pray.” Amen.

Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 09:41 PM
Palin, Gingrich and Anti-Jihadism

The American Conservative (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2010/07/22/palin-gingrich-and-anti-jihadism/)
By Daniel Larison
July 22nd, 2010



Former U.S. House speaker Newt Gingrich on Wednesday announced his opposition to a planned mosque near ground zero, becoming the latest Republican leader to place the project on the national political stage. The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/07/21/us/AP-US-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Politics.html?_r=3&hp)

Whatever else one wants to say about the proposed Islamic center or the Cordoba Initiative (http://www.cordobainitiative.org/), one thing that ought to be obvious right away is that this is a matter to be decided by New Yorkers, especially by the people who live in the immediate vicinity. The local community board supported this project almost unanimously, which should make the protestations of a politician parachuting in from the other side of the continent as irrelevant as they are ridiculous.

I do see how the building project might be seen as provocative at first, but it is actually quite hard to see how the project is an insult or such an “intolerable mistake (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=411073718434)” that it merits denunciations from national political figures who have zero connection to the place. Because of the 9/11 attacks at that location, many people seem intent on treating what happens there as something that affects the entire country, but it doesn’t. It is conventional to refer to it as “sacred ground,” as Palin does, but it is actually the site of an atrocity, not a place where miracles were performed or one where relics are laid to rest. Commemorating the people who were murdered there is right, but treating it as a locus sanctus with its own religious (or in this case anti-religious) significance is frankly very strange. Conservatives certainly don’t have to like an organization advised by the likes of Karen Armstrong, but they should be able to see that opposing this project doesn’t really make any sense.

As I said (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2010/04/27/douthat-and-anti-jihadism/) earlier this year:



The greatest danger all along has been that we would destroy or corrupt our institutions and our values out of an irrational exaggeration of the threat posed by jihadists, and that we would make this even worse through a widely shared blindness to the consequences of our national security and foreign policies. One reason anti-jihadist commentary has seemed less and less persuasive to me over the last decade is that anti-jihadists have done nothing to avoid these dangers and have done all that they could to make them worse.

Anti-jihadists keep making the same errors over and over. Instead of exploiting differences between jihadists and non-jihadists, among different kinds of Islamists, and between different groups of jihadists, anti-jihadists have been perfectly content to roll all of them into a single “Islamofascist” menace. That artificially inflates the strength of actual jihadist enemies by lending credibility to their propaganda, and as a result it makes jihadist causes more appealing. In this case, anti-jihadists are compounding their error by confusing the equivalent of Muslim ecumenists with hard-line Islamists. That is exactly what Gingrich does when he claims that the project is a “a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites” in the face of demands from aggressive Islamists. It’s not just that anti-jihadists are conflating any and all Muslims together here, but they are vilifying as aggressors some of the least aggressive Muslims around.

It is telling that the best Palin can come up with to justify her opposition to the project is that the organization’s lead cleric, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, referred to U.S. policies as accessories to the crime in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. That was not the most politic thing for a Muslim cleric to say at the time, but he was not saying that the “blame be placed on the innocents.” Rauf seems to have been saying that the U.S. government contributed to the chain of events that led to the attacks. To the extent that U.S. policies provoked blowback in the form of the attacks, he was basically correct. No less significant is the fact that Palin refers to the blockade of Gaza as justifiable in the same article in which she refers to the building project as intolerable. According to Palin, the immiseration of over a million people through deliberate economic warfare and collective punishment is perfectly all right, attempts to bring an end to that immiseration are wrong, and building a structure on legally purchased private property with the approval of the large majority of the area’s residents is intolerable. Perhaps the only thing worse than these warped judgments is the pretense that Palin is the voice of “common moral sense,” when she is actually representing the lowest common denominator of shameless demagoguery.

londonlawyer
July 22nd, 2010, 09:45 PM
I have been too pissed off to follow this closely. However, is it the case that the mosque basically has all of the approvals to proceed with this project and can basically tear down the old buildings at will (despite the ridiculous urging of the LPC that it preserve the facade)?

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 09:46 PM
If You Build It, Nothing Bad Will Happen

Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/22/ground-zero-mosque-religion-terrorism-opinions-columnists-conor-friedersdorf.html)
Conor Friedersdorf
07.22.10

Commentary

You've probably heard about "The Ground Zero Mosque," an Islamic community center planned in Lower Manhattan. But I bet you haven't heard of The Ground Zero Strip Club.

There are actually a couple of adult entertainment venues that show up on Google Maps if you search around the former site of the World Trade Center. Internet reviewers seem to like New York Dolls best, due to its sexy, disproportionately Russian staff, mirrored stage and purportedly high-quality lap dances.

As yet, I haven't heard anyone wonder why our political class is silent as the sex industry operates on sacred ground. It would be a bizarre complaint: It's Manhattan, where you can find anything mere blocks from a given location. The closest strip club to Ground Zero happens to be two blocks away, a fact that has nothing to do with our reverence for the place where so many Americans were killed by terrorists. As you've probably noticed, it doesn't even make sense to call it The Ground Zero Strip Club.

But it makes no less sense than naming an Islamic community center "The Ground Zero Mosque"--as much of the media have done--because it's going to be located a couple blocks away. Even worse, opponents of the project are opportunistically invoking the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, even going so far as to appropriate their imagery. "Join the fight to kill The Ground Zero Mosque," intones a video advertisement released by a group called National Republican Trust PAC. "A mosque at Ground Zero must not stand. The political class says nothing. The politicians are doing nothing to stop it. But we Americans will be heard. "

As an American in good standing, I'd like to be heard--and to make sure that James Madison, a colleague of mine in citizenship, is heard too. The fourth president of the U.S. once wrote, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It's a line that National Republican Trust neglects to remember. Perhaps "the political class" isn't doing anything to stop the construction of an Islamic community center because the Constitution forbids it. Even worse, the advertisement I've mentioned engages in just the sort of religious bigotry that the First Amendment is meant to guard against. "On Sept. 11 they declared war against us," the narrator says. "And to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans they want to build a monstrous 13-story mosque at ground zero."

It's the word "they" that's doing all the misleading work. The people who declared war against us on Sept. 11, 2001, were al Qaeda radicals led by Osama bin Laden and his followers. Who are the people trying to build a 13-story Islamic community center that includes a single floor of prayer space, a swimming pool, a library, a child-care center, a concert hall, a gym, a culinary school and a restaurant? "They" are an Islamic group that has long run a mosque in the area for New York City Muslims. On 9/11, "they" found their community under attack, too. It is slander to assert that they've declared war against us, or that their motive in building a community center is celebrating the murder of Americans.

One last line from the advertisement is notable: "Where we weep, they rejoice. That mosque is a monument to their victory, and an invitation for war." Talk about defeatism! The al Qaeda leaders responsible for 9/11 are either dead or hiding in caves. The U.S. remains the Earth's most powerful and prosperous nation. The hysterical cowards at National Republican Trust are nevertheless ready to concede victory to our terrorist enemies if a group of peaceful Muslims succeed in building a prayer room, a swimming pool and the balance of a community center.

Let's be sure that no one gives them a white flag.

In New York City, where every new development is reviewed under the community board system, the Islamic cultural center garnered overwhelming support. The folks who studied it most closely, and who themselves live near Ground Zero, see no good reason to stop its construction.

Moreover, the writer Jeffrey Goldberg, as staunch an opponent of radical Islamists as you'll find, posted recently on the controversy over this cultural center, having interacted with the folks who are attempting to build it, and reported that they are peace-loving people intent on marginalizing extremists inside their religion. "One of the ways to prevent future Ground Zeroes is to encourage moderation within Islam, and to treat Muslim moderates differently than we treat Muslim extremists," he writes. "The campaign against this mosque treats all Muslims as perpetrators. This is a terrible mistake, for moral and strategic reasons."

Opponents of this project are judging people they've never met on the basis of their religion, treating all Muslims as enemies of America, and allowing emotional prejudice to dictate their opinion when prudent reflection would serve everyone better. Forbidding houses of worship from being built is something done in foreign autocracies, not a country founded by people fleeing religious prejudice.

May the mosque and the cultural center around it go up in Lower Manhattan, and thrive in peaceful coexistence with all members of its new community, be they Christians, Jews or the neighbors who spend Saturday night and Sunday morning exchanging dollar bills in those strip clubs.

And long live New York City, a place that contains multitudes.

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 09:57 PM
... is it the case that the mosque basically has all of the approvals to proceed with this project and can basically tear down the old buildings at will (despite the ridiculous urging of the LPC that it preserve the facade)?

It was the Landmark Committee of Manhattan Community Board 1 that issued a non-binding Resolution not to Landmark the building but only to dismantle & preserve the facade for future use. LPC has not yet voted on the matter of 45 Park Place; supposedly the vote will take place by the end of summer.

The LPC vote to designate is but one step -- if designated by LPC (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/faqs/faq_designation.shtml), it then has to proceed through City Planning, the City Council and then on to the Mayor, who can veto the designation (and then the City Council can override the Mayor by a 2/3 majority vote). All of this is controlled by a timeline running a maximum of ~180 days after the LPC vote.

So, no ... the process is not over and at this point the owner cannot proceed with whatever plans they might have (and indeed don't yet have the funding to move forward).

londonlawyer
July 22nd, 2010, 10:04 PM
Thanks, Lofter.

It seems that they have passed all of the hurdles so far.

It would be nice if they would build this on a lousy site downtown that needs to be redeveloped. There are quite a few.

lofter1
July 22nd, 2010, 10:05 PM
They've passed none of those hurdles as of yet. The only hurdle jumped is the "We have no power, we only give advice" step at the Community Board.

We'll know within 6 months how the property is to be treated. Or if LPC votes against designation then this process could be over and done with by September.

If that happens then the multitude of anti-mosque lawsuits will begin :cool: .