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archnyer
July 5th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Forget the depression. This (http://www.mbaunderground.blogspot.com/) is the real story that few in the MSM are covering.

Where businesses and banks can enter bankruptcy, students and their parents cannot. This is the story of peonage and serfdom in the 21st Century. (http://twitter.com/collegeisascam)

Dog earns MBA (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/Dog-Earns-MBA-from-Rochville-U-tp686824p686824.html)

College Bubble Set to Bust (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/COLLEGE-BUBBLE-SET-TO-BURST-tp924783p924783.html)

Sponsor My Degree (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/Sponsor-My-Degree-tp913636p913636.html) wtf?

David Wylde says get an MBA or PhD to keep the bubble inflated (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/David-Wylde-Get-an-MBA-or-PhD-as-a-stimulus-for-higher-ed-tp923083p923083.html)

Subprime College (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/The-Cat-is-Out-of-the-Bag-Subprime-Colleges-td779845.html#a779845)

And just Google "College is a Scam" to see more.

When will it ever end?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQgG3AZMj3g

Ninjahedge
July 6th, 2010, 08:04 AM
The poll does not reflect all the possible permutations here.

As an Engineer, I believe my degree was definitely needed. But, I also believe it was needlessly overpriced. I am also annoyed by the college calling me back asking for MORE money after graduation. For what? A library I will never see? A computer lab I could have used that had slightly more modern machines?

Nah.

I do not believe the College thnig is a scam, but some universities definitely get away with charging much more than they need to operate. After all, if they were cheaper, they would not be as good, right? :confused:

lofter1
July 6th, 2010, 08:51 AM
But as colleges and universities have now structured themselves it is indeed a bubble. Given the economy it will be interesting to see how many future students are willing to put themselves in hock for > $50K for the supposed promise of jobs that don't exist.

"Expired Meatloaf" :eek:

Might want to try bulgur first.

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 10:11 AM
An education is not just for making money.

Ninjahedge
July 6th, 2010, 10:50 AM
The cost of an education in some fields should be what they are worth when you get out and how much work it actually is to provide it.

Some liberal arts degrees are laughable and insult the whole genre, while some Engineering degrees are forcing you to work at full speed almost as soon as your feet hit the ground. (We say some pre-law and pre-med students taking some really easy classes. They have to worry about GPA to get into a good Grad School, but most are not taking anything as demanding as Non-Linear Analysys in Undergrad.....


Am I saying that Arts degrees are worthless? No. But charging $30K/yr for something you really can't use for much when you get out (if you do not follow up with somethnig) is not a good buisness model.

And charging the same for something that only pays $40K/yr when you get out (if you can get something in a recession) ain't exactly great either, but.....

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 11:11 AM
As I said, An education is not just for making money.

okbeng
July 6th, 2010, 12:29 PM
However, it is an investment which we should expect some payback from.

Ninjahedge
July 6th, 2010, 12:54 PM
As I said, An education is not just for making money.

I am a bit more with okb here. I know it is not all for making money, but it should not be seen as a "necessary luxury".

We are trying to push it in too many ways and equate all to the same standard. Teaching a craftsmans trade is now less "valuable" then learning art history.

And I am not saying that looking at art is bad, but the classes, for the most part, are not about learning and appreciating art, but memorizing names and dates and seeing if you can remember what your professor likes and dislikes about them. (A tough lesson I learned early on when I actually tried to see things through my own eyes rather than theirs).

But when we step back and look at many things, the operating costs of an institution, the monies paid to its employees, and then the money spent on its administration and physical presence, we get a sense that Universities are learning a bit too much from our ruling bodies. Those that know are valued less than those that coordinate them, no matter what the disparity in value that each may be to the University itself.

Anyway, back to Earth. ALL degrees are too expensive now, but since when was it reasonable to charge $120K-$150K to know about Middle European Authors? Is this something that should yet again be relegated only to the rich?

Ninjahedge
July 6th, 2010, 01:21 PM
I'm with you! An education is for partying, getting laid, and later in life when you are living large off of the students as a lecturer, drinking coffee in the tenured professor's lounge!


Um, you sound familiar there Newbee... I would watch how obvious you make the connection.

Anyway, I do agree with all but the last part. Professorial roles are not lucrative. They rely mostly on publications to make their mark/money. The advantage being that you can use the Universities resources for free, the downside being that almost anything you write while in their employ has to be approved, or some other restriction, by them. I am not sure about having to pay any royalty/%......

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 02:00 PM
However, it is an investment which we should expect some payback from.
There's ALWAYS payback, and almost always that includes money. But if all you expect from an education is money, then that's all you'll get from it. Most members of this forum are using their educations to derive amusement; there's no money in it for them (us).

Ninjahedge
July 6th, 2010, 02:09 PM
Um.....

abl, college should never be thought of as "amusement", although the joke has been made.


A similar comparison can be made to many things. Police protection is something we all desire, but do we think it is worth paying a cop $100,000 a year with no higher education, a relatively risk free position (most are in low risk areas) and little experience? (How many other jobs escalate pay as quickly as a cop?)

An education is worth getting, but not worth paying the amount they are charging these days.


BTW, an education given in different areas of the country should NEVER cost the same, but yet, no matter what the major, quite a few schools are within very low margins of each other when it comes to tuition prices. There are many incongruities (or too many congruities!! ;) ) and they need to be addressed.

BBMW
July 6th, 2010, 02:33 PM
However, if there was no money to be made by getting it, what percentage of the current levels of enrollment do you think the colleges would have? 10%? 5%? This is especially true give the current tuition levels. Anyone laying out high five, low six figures on an education is looking for a decent ROI.

A college degree is seen as (and in many cases is) an entre' into a higher paid white collar professions. If it wasn't, they would not nearly be as popular.


However, it is an investment which we should expect some payback from.

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 02:56 PM
^
^
The amusement I meant, Ninja, is mouthing off on this forum on a smorgasbord of topics one might find an education useful for.

Fabrizio
July 6th, 2010, 03:01 PM
Most members of this forum are using their educations to derive amusement; there's no money in it for them (us).

I'm probably one of the few here with out a college education.

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 03:05 PM
^ I know that. I thought of you when I wrote that sentence. How does it feel to be the exception that proves the rule?


Or you could maybe serve as proof of this rule: you don't need a college degree to be educated.


(Shameless flattery.)

Fabrizio
July 6th, 2010, 03:14 PM
In my first job interview I was asked about my education. I said I was a graduate of Parsons. I got the job. It has just never been a problem.

The real difficuty was going out into the world without "method"....which is something that school teaches you. I did eventual study a bit in NYC ...a few courses ...but never any degree.

Ninjahedge
July 6th, 2010, 04:03 PM
Fab, it gets more difficult in some professions.

A friend of ours always commented about "that piece of paper" as people were promoted right past him. It is probably more important for tech fields than art ones merely because Tech is a more direct curriculum and more easily targeted at one profession or another.

Most of the jobs I have looked at ask for a Baccalaureate as a base with a masters preferred. I would not even get called back w/o a degree.



That being said, my education cost my family over $100,000 over 15 years ago. If I did not have help from family, I would have had a very hard time paying it back (to give you an idea, my first salary was about $33K/year, with a masters and honors. After taxes, rent and expenses, it was very difficult to save. And no, I am not a big spender. My rent was $800/mo......)

Education has just become unbalanced. It is important, but too many things are requiring degrees that may have little application. Also, there is little motivation to choose the proper degree now when people feel like college is just a continuation of High School (it took me until my Senior Year to finally say, "Snow day my arse, I am paying for this class, you reschedule it!").

How can we make it so that it is indeed affordable, applicable, with enough diversity to provide breadth of knowledge and enlightenment? Is this impossible? Have colleges and degrees just become a buisness?

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 04:13 PM
Have colleges and degrees just become a buisness?
Well, since you've been discussing it primarily in terms of return on investment, why are you scandalized?

Can you blame them if they come to think like their customers?

ablarc
July 6th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Too long ago, an especially wise university president addressed his incoming freshman class. The subject of his talk was: why getting an education is not synonymous with learning a trade.

He was passionate about his beliefs; and he demonstrated it by explaining why his prestigious university should not harbor a business school. There was, to be sure, an engineering school populated by folks with slide-rule tie clips, there was the usual panoply of science departments, there was a particle accelerator, medical and law schools, and drama, art and music departments that were all the best or at least contenders.

But the core was resolutely anti-trade school. It was called liberal arts, and if it trained people for a trade, that trade was Professor.

In fact, most graduates with degrees in English, history or philosophy went on to graduate schools of law, medicine or architecture. After graduation many rose to the top of their professions; they became justices, brain surgeons, starchitects, senators, corporate executives, and a few of them became American presidents.

Important to realize, as the wise university president so well knew, was that their life success was not based on specialized training in a narrow field, but on their exposure to the full spectrum of a liberal education. The professional success was a by-product, never the target.

It’s like love: if you search too hard for it, like Casanova, you’ll never find it.

Ninjahedge
July 7th, 2010, 10:18 AM
Well, since you've been discussing it primarily in terms of return on investment, why are you scandalized?

Can you blame them if they come to think like their customers?

Price fixing.

Need I say more?

Ninjahedge
July 7th, 2010, 10:19 AM
^^ B.S.

Abl, it is easy to talk about "love" and "art" when you put such a hefty price tag on it. :rolleyes:

ablarc
July 7th, 2010, 10:36 AM
The present price tag of an education at the wise president's school is: what you can afford. If you're so poor that you can afford nothing, then the price tag is nothing. Everyone who is accepted is given the means to attend.

Those are the benefits of a huge endowment. You malign these institutions by equating them with businesses.

Ninjahedge
July 8th, 2010, 08:27 AM
In a time where borrowing is so easy, what you can "afford" has little meaning.





And don't even get me started on Endowments.....

mr messer
July 22nd, 2010, 01:19 PM
This is a topic that should be close to the hearts and minds of all parents out there. I was lucky growing up in the city because none of my relatives pushed me to go to college. But that didn't stop me for years, even to this day, wanting to do a degree in something. Now I am glad that I didn't.

But this story (http://twitter.com/collegeisascam/status/17721168339) about people who put MBA after their name really says it all. What next? Will people put "I'm a pompous A Hole" after their names? It's become very ridiculous the whole go to college mantra that is.

Ninjahedge
July 23rd, 2010, 08:05 AM
MM, I think you are a bit off mark there. College degrees ARE important, but not all of them are worth what they are being charged for.

Medical degrees, for the most part, still convey a LEGAL ability to perform a job that is known to earn more than others in a lot of situations, while Art History will not.

Engineering starts teaching hard stuff almost from day one. There were only a few "101" classes to take before almost every engie had tons of work every weekend while their Liberal Arts conterparts did not.

But the cost of college education has gone up disproportionately compared to everything. Compared to inflation, cost of operation, and most importantly, average starting salaries of the professionals that graduate from them (including the more directly vocational programs).

Typecasting an entire group of people as "A-Holes" based on a Twitter "article" is a bit off kilter. Agreed you will attract a different group of people to different majors, but saying that an MBA is not only worthless, but is attracting flies to honey is unfair to those that worked hard to get.

mr messer
July 23rd, 2010, 09:06 AM
Medical degrees, for the most part, still convey a LEGAL ability to perform a job that is known to earn more than others in a lot of situations, while Art History will not.

Engineering starts teaching hard stuff almost from day one. There were only a few "101" classes to take before almost every engie had tons of work every weekend while their Liberal Arts conterparts did not.

Typecasting an entire group of people as "A-Holes" based on a Twitter "article" is a bit off kilter. Agreed you will attract a different group of people to different majors, but saying that an MBA is not only worthless, but is attracting flies to honey is unfair to those that worked hard to get.

So people who have to say "IM A comma MBA" aren't aholes (http://thegreatcollegehoax.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=9cc270d473943b05e2e5622f2cf10b 09&topic=240.0)? Well they aren't mature enough to rely on their own skills and confidence if they have to do that. That's what I think anyway.

MBAs sure seem to be worthless in the year 2010 from reading the articles linked in the thread. Even Forbes, Celente and others are saying that MBAs will lead your child to working at Sports Authority. Management and most of the pap they teach in those degrees are something that most of the entrants could learn themselves on the job and with an amazon.com account. MBAs do not seem to have any real accounting weight like an accounting degree has (which gives you the pre requisites to practice accounting afaik) So medicine, law, engineering, dentistry, accounting and a couple of other degrees are really worth doing because you then are trained and entitled to practice a profession. But a degree in management? Give me a break. Even finance mbas are useless now. Everyone is alive to the scam after the Great Crash.

Look at some of the stories at why its such a big scam for the parents and the kids out there (thank God I was spared that)
Management Mba (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/Management-MBAs-are-a-Scam-tp857703p857703.html), more on useless management degrees (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/MBA-Graduate-Fu-tc687061.html#a687061)
Dog gets Mba (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/Dog-Earns-MBA-from-Rochville-U-tp686824p686824.html)
Jim Rogers says Mba students should have learned farming (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/JIM-ROGERS-MBA-GRADUATES-MADE-A-MISTAKE-THEY-SHOULD-HAVE-LEARNED-AGRICULTURE-tp932811p932811.html)
Get Mba degree in ONE DAY! (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/Why-spend-2-years-when-you-can-earn-your-MBA-in-a-Day-tp773253p773253.html)
Mba USELESS DEGREE! (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/Is-the-MBA-Becoming-a-Useless-Degree-td696458.html#a696458)
and I like this one the best - the MBA Scam (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/The-MBA-Scam-by-Matt-Lynn-td744454.html#a744454) because it sums it up nicely.

But this USN Admiral Rickover really is an expert when he says the Mba is useless. (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/MBA-vs-Subject-Matter-Knowledge-tc686708.html#a686708) The bottom line is that Mba and a lot of other degrees dont teach you the hard knowledge and just seem to be something like the consistency of marshmallow.

Ninjahedge
July 23rd, 2010, 10:14 AM
No, it does not say that having an MBA, or listing that as credit, makes you an A-hole. Saying such really hurts yor position, especially after saying that you decided not to go for a degree.

MBA in and of itself is not a badge. It is one set of accreditation that can help you if you do indeed know what you are doing. That is what the interview is for. As much as Forbes (I have not checked which articles you are listing, so this may be contextual), may say it does not matter anymore, it is highly unlikely that someone without ANY education will even make it past the resume scanners w/o contacts, referrals and/or EXTENSIVE experience in the field they are applying.

An education is what you make of it. MBA signifies graduation, not any accreditation. That is why most professionals also persue licensing in their fields after graduation and working in the field.

An MBA can be worthless if it was not obtained in an effort to learn from an institution wanting to teach.

But if you want to be really depressed, in buisness it is usually not WHAT you know, but WHO you know. Our buisnesses depend more on social contact than facts and skill. While some tact and diplomacy are definitely needed in all fields, buisness lives off of it to the point where teh better you shmooze, the less you lose even if you do not know your left from your right.

That being said, most will still require, as one family friend put it, "That worthless piece of paper" that so many work hard for, and a few get to ruin its rep.

mr messer
July 23rd, 2010, 10:51 AM
Right its about who you know! The MBA is worthless though. I was just saying that people are saying that people who put COMMA MBA after their names are really inadequate and have even been called aholes.

Yes the MBA in 1950 was worth something but today its worth less than toilet paper so why are people still paying 150 k for it? Or even 50 k? It's like saying "I couldnt get a job or keep a job BUT LOOK AT MY BAD*SS MBA!" That's not cool!

Well, the Forbes article is famous its called "the great college hoax" and you can google it.

And also the article by the Admiral is worth reading. People who do "stuff" are what society needs and people who just mooch off them in a non productive way in the name of management and business skills ie MBAs are the opposite of what society needs.

Ninjahedge
July 23rd, 2010, 01:27 PM
Maybe we can get on even ground here.

I agree that the " , MBA" is worthless, but not necessarily the MBA.

Nobody puts down Masters in anything. MBA was a bit different in that it seemed like the first hurdle. You also need to have it to get looked at for a job. After that, in and of itself, the accreditation can be worthless.

Just be careful not to lump everything together. There are a lot of people out there that worked very hard for their MBA at a reputable institution. It is the "MBA in a box" that kind of ruins it for everyone.

Hey, I just got my MBA online!!!!! (Reminds me of Doonesbury and Duke's med school in Haiti: http://www.supras.biz/pdf/Doonesbury_CastBios.pdf )

mr messer
July 23rd, 2010, 04:31 PM
The articles show that the MBA is also worthless. It had some value back 30 years ago when it was rare.

Now, anyone can get an MBA, and whether it's from a good university or a not so well known one, the whole "MBA having effect" has been watered down. Just read the articles!

And tell me because I dont know, what can you learn in an MBA that you cant learn from a good amazon.com account?

MBA degrees are about networking and getting to know peers, and even the good ones from good schools seem to be about having better guest lecturers and better contacts only not better content. There's nothing magic about an MBA at a good school. And a lot of it is management/business science nonsense. The Admiral says it right in his article.

So please don't mind me if I dont buy into the "well sir you got an MBA from a good school so I will give you credit for that". No. What do they actually do? Where is the hard science or benefit of this?

And don't get me started on economics degrees. Listen to what Nassim Taleb has to say about this. Its no more a science than astrology. (http://rs.resalliance.org/2007/10/27/taleb-on-the-failures-of-financial-economics/)

I respect a plumber or maintenance man who can actually do something, with a hard science, and study/read management, financial products and accounting at night college than I do an MBA grad from Harvard who's never actually run a business or practiced a trade.

mr messer
July 23rd, 2010, 04:40 PM
And tell me , what do they actually teach students in finance? What product to buy? What structures? Wowie! Something I could never learn by reading the texts about the ways to borrow money. So so difficult.

Heres what Admiral says about management mumbo jumbo from the link above posted.



No management system can substitute for hard work. A manager who does not work hard or devote extra effort cannot expect his people to do so. He must set the example. The manager may not be the smartest or the most knowledgeable person, but if he dedicates himself to the job and devotes the required effort, his people will follow his lead.

The ideas I have mentioned are not new—previous generations recognized the value of hard work, attention to detail, personal responsibility, and determination. And these, rather than the highly-touted modern management techniques, are still the most important in doing a job. Together they embody a common-sense approach to management, one that cannot be taught by professors of management in a classroom.

I am not against business education. A knowledge of accounting, finance, business law, and the like can be of value in a business environment. What I do believe is harmful is the impression often created by those who teach management that one will be able to manage any job by applying certain management techniques together with some simple academic rules of how to manage people and situations.

mr messer
July 24th, 2010, 06:34 AM
And tell me , what do they actually teach students in finance? What product to buy? What structures? Wowie! Something I could never learn by reading the texts about the ways to borrow money. So so difficult.

Has anyone here studied finance at college? What do they teach you? Useful or not?

mr messer
July 24th, 2010, 01:07 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-10748313

The ex-director general of the CBI says degrees do have value but that they are not the best option for all students.
UK universities are attracting record applications but firms often complain graduates do not have the right skills.
The body that represents universities has disputed Lord Jones' claims.
Nicola Dandridge, chief executive of Universities UK, said colleges already offered a wealth of vocational courses.

Ninjahedge
July 24th, 2010, 08:45 PM
Mess, the more you talk the more you sound like you are angry that people with MBA's are considered more intelligent or more qualified than you are.


If MBA's are still so worthless, why do so many companies require them before you even apply?


Rhetorical question, really, but feel free to keep calling degrees worthless.

mr messer
July 25th, 2010, 01:25 AM
No I'm sorry Ninja but the more you continue to ignore the substance of the articles posted the more you try to pin on me some viewpoint I don't have or I've not really made. What I have said is that people who think that an MBA is something you are not something you do are really missing the point which speaks volumes to the standards of that degree when the majority are quick to trumpet they are an MBA without actually thinking before they speak. There are people like Bill Gates who would never behave like that because they understand business and the fact that no one really regards it as a difficult degree or something worth having. A lot of Wall St moguls from the old days would never touch an MBA degree themselves but out of the kids they had to hire they would pick someone who had done a degree because getting it usually means they have level a of social skills from cooperationg at university with others in their peer group.

I like what the Admiral has to say and he's right. And no, the MBA graduates are not valued anymore. It's not 1980 anymore Ninja when that was a time where these degrees were rare and difficult to get but today even a dog can get an MBA so how does this mean intelligence or achievement. This is very much a problem with society today Ninja where the people who have the children are in a race to make sure their kids get the best in life and automatically think that getting a degree is the best thing for their kids so they all encourage them to do very useless liberal arts degrees business degrees that are useless and other degrees that are useless for a lot of money and so now you have the worlds most giant ponzi scheme being run by college presidents who essentially sell useless degrees for hundreds of thousands of $$$ to every parent out there who then indoctrinate their kids from day one that getting a masters degree in business or a doctorate is the way to get ahead in life when it's probably the worst decision a person can make when they could spend that money getting real skills or running a business like Jobs and Gates did when they were young. Let me allow you to read this food for thought amigo. (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/If-Madoff-Were-Free-td921369.html#a921369)


If Madoff Were Free

If Madoff were free today what would he be doing to make money?

Would he engage in a giant ponzi scheme, promising tens of thousands of people who trust him, taking tens of thousands of dollars from these people to "invest" for a few years, while they take it easy with their lives, relying on this investment, with the promise that they would be able to make even more after a few years?

Or would he simply start a college, and sell pieces of paper called liberal arts (and other) degrees, promising tens of thousands of people who trust him, taking tens of thousands of dollars from these people to "invest" for a few years, while they take it easy with their lives away from the real world, relying on this investment, with the promise that they would be able to make even more after a few years?

If Madoff were free today.

What would Madoff do to make money? Would Madoff engage in the illegal ponzi scheme, or just start a college. If Madoff were free today, he would start a college..Look at the ponzi scheme generated by the "college industrial complex" (http://twitter.com/collegeisascam/status/17043697621) as has been coined. This is really just over the top and not at all fair to the students and young of today.

Ninjahedge
July 26th, 2010, 07:43 AM
Yep.

Even poop has substance MM.


Even poop.

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 08:49 AM
So Admiral Rickovers speech is poop?

What about this? The New York Times!!!! says back in 2007 (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/The-End-of-BUSINESS-SCHOOL-tp995797p995797.html) that business degrees are not that useful.

And studying management ie how to mooch others and not produce anything or know anything - that's not poop amigo?

Is this like your buyers justification where you have to convince yourself that spending that money and time on a degree was worth it? Some degree are good most are not! They are not vocation they are just vacation!

I have to laugh at some of the degrees offered today (http://mba-underground.686460.n3.nabble.com/WILL-HUNTING-WAS-RIGHT-tp995787p995787.html) and I mean about 95 percent of them! Plumbers are more useful than these business and arts graduates! Say that aint true amigo!

Ninjahedge
July 26th, 2010, 11:12 AM
You are lumping again.

Like I said, you get from your education what you want from it. An MBA can prove to be useful, from the right school, with the right student. A degree, in and of itself, has not been a good mark of quality since 1970.


This applies to almost ANY degree.

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 11:42 AM
So medical, engineering, law degrees recognized by state education departments - not a mark of any standard? Yet they are the gateway to professions?

But jello MBAs - usefull "sometimes?" even where dogs earn them when owners send in 500 dollar checks to online "universities"?

Admiral Rickover's thesis - about subject matter knowledge vs business school jello knowledge is right so why don't you like it amigo?


One must create the ability in his staff to generate clear, forceful arguments for opposing viewpoints as well as for their own. Open discussions and disagreements must be encouraged, so that all sides of an issue will be fully explored. Further, important issues should be presented in writing. Nothing so sharpens the thought process as writing down one’s arguments. Weaknesses overlooked in oral discussion become painfully obvious on the written page.

When important decisions are not documented, one becomes dependent on individual memory, which is quickly lost as people leave or move to other jobs. In my work, it is important to be able to go back a number of years to determine the facts that were considered in arriving at a decision. This makes it easier to resolve new problems by putting them into proper perspective. It also minimizes the risk of repeating past mistakes. Moreover if important communications and actions are not documented clearly, one can never be sure they were understood or even executed.

It is a human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary. A successful manager must resist this temptation. This is particularly hard if one has invested much time and energy on a project and thus has come to feel possessive about it. Although it is not easy to admit what a person once thought correct now appears to be wrong, one must discipline himself to face the facts objectively and make the necessary changes—regardless of the consequences to himself. The man in charge must personally set the example in this respect. He must be able, in effect, to “kill his own child” if necessary and must require his subordinates to do likewise. I have had to go to Congress and, because of technical problems, recommended terminating a project that had been funded largely on my say-so. It is not a pleasant task, but one must be brutally objective in his work.

No management system can substitute for hard work. A manager who does not work hard or devote extra effort cannot expect his people to do so. He must set the example. The manager may not be the smartest or the most knowledgeable person, but if he dedicates himself to the job and devotes the required effort, his people will follow his lead.

The ideas I have mentioned are not new—previous generations recognized the value of hard work, attention to detail, personal responsibility, and determination. And these, rather than the highly-touted modern management techniques, are still the most important in doing a job. Together they embody a common-sense approach to management, one that cannot be taught by professors of management in a classroom.

I am not against business education. A knowledge of accounting, finance, business law, and the like can be of value in a business environment. What I do believe is harmful is the impression often created by those who teach management that one will be able to manage any job by applying certain management techniques together with some simple academic rules of how to manage people and situations.


NY Times 2007


Mr. Hammond of the Alerian hedge fund recently hired someone from Carnegie Mellon’s business school because of that person’s engineering talent, not the skills he learned in business school. While Mr. Hammond says he understands why his new employee went to business school to move into finance, he would look less favorably on someone in an M.B.A. program who had left finance to go to business school.

If he were looking at someone who went to Harvard Business School after the two-year analyst program at Goldman, “I’d be suspicious,” he says. “I’d be saying, ‘What was it you were doing wrong that you couldn’t get a promotion at Goldman or did not pursue an opportunity with a private equity or hedge fund?’ ”

When young people on Wall Street consider the benefits of business school, Mr. Hammond says, the upside no longer outweighs lost salaries and bonuses they would have earned. He calculates the cost of going to a two-year business school to be at least half a million dollars for the average bank employee — $250,000 or more each year in lost salary, plus $50,000 a year in tuition and living expenses. For hedge fund employees, Mr. Hammond says, the number would be considerably higher.

The result, headhunters say, is that many of the best people in finance are no longer entering the M.B.A. pipeline. “If someone is doing well at a hedge fund, they absolutely do not encourage their employees to go off to business school,” says Mr. Zoia of Glocap.

Some young people are pursuing alternatives that can be completed without leaving their jobs. Some take the chartered financial analyst tests or study part-time at night at schools like N.Y.U. that offer master’s degrees in subjects like financial engineering.

“There’s a real shift in assumptions as to what is going to make you a better applicant or a prospect for a job,” says Art Hogan, chief market analyst for Jefferies & Company, noting that he had seen an increased interest in young people pursuing a designation as a chartered financial analyst at night rather than leaving their jobs for an M.B.A

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 11:43 AM
I think my amigo Ninjahodge has an MBA or business degree. Yes?

Hey Ninjahodge, do you know my good friend Hodgemen?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLx8HR1pTHY

Ninjahedge
July 26th, 2010, 01:50 PM
Why don't you read around a bit MM and see what degree I have.

You do not seem to do a heck of a lot of that before you start, do you?

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 02:10 PM
Hodge, just tell me I can't see. Civil Engineer is a good degree worth doing which I have said many times but you say nothing about your MBAs.

But business or arts degrees like the OP said are useless compared to engineering or other professional degrees which in the times of yore were studied on the job and with night school and exams because its a practical degree.

And tell me why Rickover is wrong.

Do you think we won WWII with a bunch of business grads?

Ninjahedge
July 26th, 2010, 02:34 PM
I have 9000+ posts.

Read a bit more, and don't expect a civil answer when you are trying to insult.

BrooklynRider
July 26th, 2010, 03:20 PM
No I'm sorry Ninja but the more you continue to ignore the substance of the articles posted the more you try to pin on me some viewpoint I don't have or I've not really made. What I have said is that people who think that an MBA is something you are not something you do are really missing the point which speaks volumes to the standards of that degree when the majority are quick to trumpet they are an MBA without actually thinking before they speak. There are people like Bill Gates who would never behave like that because they understand business and the fact that no one really regards it as a difficult degree or something worth having. A lot of Wall St moguls from the old days would never touch an MBA degree themselves but out of the kids they had to hire they would pick someone who had done a degree because getting it usually means they have level a of social skills from cooperationg at university with others in their peer group.



Mr. Messer, I can appreciate the passionate argument you make. I agree with some of your points, but I had to spend an awful lot of time sifting through your writing to discern them.

I want to draw your attention to the very poor use of the English language by pointing out some errors below. If English is not your first language, please let us know. Forum members always try to help folks that are learning or want to learn to commuicate effectvely in English.

We appreciate your contributions to the forum and hope the quality of your posts improves. (You can put your text in Word before posting. It will correct spelling and syntax errors.)

Thanks! :)

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No. I'm sorry Ninja. [DELETE but] The more you continue to ignore the substance of the articles posted the more you try to pin on me some viewpoint that I don't have or I've not really made. [DELETE What I have said is,] The point that I am making is that people who think that an MBA is something [DELETE you] are [DELETE not something] wrong. You [DELETE do] are really missing the point, which speaks volumes to the standards of that degree. [DELETE when] The majority are quick to trumpet that they [DELETE are] have an MBA without actually thinking before they speak. [DELETE There are] People like Bill Gates [DELETE who] would never behave like that, because they understand business and [DELETE the fact] that no one really regards [DELETE it] an MBA as a difficult degree, or something worth having. A lot of Wall Street moguls, from the old days, would never touch an MBA degree themselves. [DELETE but] However, when [DELETE out of the kids] they had to hire, they would pick someone who had [DELETE done] earned a degree. [DELETE because getting] It usually [DELETE means] meant that [DELETE they] he or she [DELETE have] had a level of social skills developed from cooperating at university with others in their peer group.

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 03:30 PM
I thought you were a civil engineer.

BTW, Admiral Rickover is right. Business grads are practically useless.

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 03:33 PM
************************************************** ******

No. I'm sorry Ninja. [DELETE but] The more you continue to ignore the substance of the articles posted the more you try to pin on me some viewpoint that I don't have or I've not really made. [DELETE What I have said is,] The point that I am making is that people who think that an MBA is something [DELETE you] are [DELETE not something] wrong. You [DELETE do] are really missing the point, which speaks volumes to the standards of that degree. [DELETE when] The majority are quick to trumpet that they [DELETE are] have an MBA without actually thinking before they speak. [DELETE There are] People like Bill Gates [DELETE who] would never behave like that, because they understand business and [DELETE the fact] that no one really regards [DELETE it] an MBA as a difficult degree, or something worth having. A lot of Wall Street moguls, from the old days, would never touch an MBA degree themselves. [DELETE but] However, when [DELETE out of the kids] they had to hire, they would pick someone who had [DELETE done] earned a degree. [DELETE because getting] It usually [DELETE means] meant that [DELETE they] he or she [DELETE have] had a level of social skills developed from cooperating at university with others in their peer group.

Almost all wrong amigo. eg Are an MBA is exactly what these people think and say. They actually believe that the state of being or having an MBA) ie it's something they are (or something they have) not actually something they do (ie business)) is more important. A lot of your corrections are based on computer software? That's a very poor choice, amigo.

Ninjahedge
July 26th, 2010, 03:41 PM
So is criticizing a mod.


Be careful MM. Also, if you thought I was a Civil Engineer, why did you keep saying I was an MBA? You are trying to say that anyone that thinks that you can get something from a good MBA program must have one. Don't assume.

mr messer
July 26th, 2010, 04:05 PM
I don't know what you have studied. I read your profile after you asked me to. Have you also studied business?

Why are you so reluctant to comment on the Admiral's article and the NY Times article and all of the others. This is a very important issue for America and I think the OP has it right because these degrees offer nothing but gruel for the middle and lower classes who want their children to succeed.

So for the 10th time, what do you say about these articles and in particular the two I focused on and also what do you say about what Will Hunting says about getting a business education for a dollar fifty at the public library.

BrooklynRider
July 26th, 2010, 04:12 PM
Please refer to the rules of conduct for Wired New York. All posts must be in proper English. Spelling and punctuation count. Please let us know, if English is not your first language. If it is, we appreciate you taking the time to read your post for clarity before posting. It is a courtesy we all try to afford one another in this community.

Please note corrections below.

************************************************** ***************************

Almost all wrong, amigo [DELETE .], e.g. Are an MBA is exactly what these people think and say. They actually believe that the state of being or having an MBA [DELETE )], i.e. it's something they are (or something they have) not actually something they do (i.e. business)[DELETE )], is more important. Are a lot of your corrections [DELETE are] based on computer software? That's a very poor choice, amigo.

ablarc
July 26th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Must be Mexican.

All those "amigos".

Isn't that what Mexicans say in the movies: Amigo?

Ninjahedge
July 27th, 2010, 08:55 AM
At least he isn't saying "friend-o".

ZippyTheChimp
July 27th, 2010, 09:19 AM
'Nuff said? (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/member.php?u=5204)

:)

BankerToBe
August 23rd, 2010, 10:10 AM
Hey I voted wrong. How can I change this?