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londonlawyer
October 3rd, 2010, 11:41 PM
The extent of insanity in the United States is truly surreal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html?hp

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/10/04/us/GUNS1_span/JP-GUNS-2-articleLarge.jpg
Patrick Hartman carries a gun while checking IDs at Tootsies, a Nashville bar where customers are allowed to take weapons if they have a permit.

"More States Allowing Guns in Bars and Restaurants"

By MALCOLM GAY
Published: October 3, 2010
NASHVILLE — Happy-hour beers were going for $5 at Past Perfect, a cavernous bar just off this city’s strip of honky-tonks and tourist shops when Adam
Ringenberg walked in with a loaded 9-millimeter pistol in the front pocket of his gray slacks.

Adam Ringenberg, his pistol on the seat of his car in Nashville, said he took his gun with him everywhere he went except work.
Mr. Ringenberg, a technology consultant, is one of the state’s nearly 300,000 handgun permit holders who have recently seen their rights greatly expanded by a new law — one of the nation’s first — that allows them to carry loaded firearms into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

“If someone’s sticking a gun in my face, I’m not relying on their charity to keep me alive,” said Mr. Ringenberg, 30, who said he carries the gun for personal protection when he is not at work.

Gun rights advocates like Mr. Ringenberg may applaud the new law, but many customers, waiters and restaurateurs here are dismayed by the decision.

“That’s not cool in my book,” Art Andersen, 44, said as he nursed a Coors Light at Sam’s Sports Bar and Grill near Vanderbilt University. “It opens the door to trouble. It’s giving you the right to be Wyatt Earp.”

Tennessee is one of four states, along with Arizona, Georgia and Virginia, that recently enacted laws explicitly allowing loaded guns in bars. (Eighteen other states allow weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol.) The new measures in Tennessee and the three other states come after two landmark Supreme Court rulings that citizens have an individual right — not just in connection with a well-regulated militia — to keep a loaded handgun for home defense.

Experts say these laws represent the latest wave in the country’s gun debate, as the gun lobby seeks, state by state, to expand the realm of guns in everyday life.

The rulings, which overturned handgun bans in Washington and Chicago, have strengthened the stance of gun rights advocates nationwide. More than 250 lawsuits now challenge various gun laws, and Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, a Republican, called for guns to be made legal on campuses after a shooting last week at the University of Texas, Austin, arguing that armed bystanders might have stopped the gunman.

The new laws have also brought to light the status of 20 other states — New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts among them — that do not address the question, appearing by default to allow those with permits to carry guns into establishments that serve alcohol, according to the Legal Community Against Violence, a nonprofit group that promotes gun control and tracks state gun laws.

“A lot of states for a long time have not felt the need to say you could or couldn’t do it,” said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. “There weren’t as many conceal-carry permits out there, so it wasn’t really an issue.” Now, he said, “the attitude from the gun lobby is that they should be able to take their guns wherever they want. In the last year, they’re starting to move toward needing no permit at all.”

State Representative Curry Todd, a Republican who first introduced the guns-in-bars bill here, said that carrying a gun inside a tavern was never the law’s primary intention. Rather, he said, the law lets people defend themselves while walking to and from restaurants.

“Folks were being robbed, assaulted — it was becoming an issue of personal safety,” said Mr. Todd, who added that the National Rifle Association had aided his legislative efforts. “The police aren’t going to be able to protect you. They’re going to be checking out the crime scene after you and your family’s been shot or injured or assaulted or raped.”

Under Tennessee’s new law, gun permit holders are not supposed to drink alcohol while carrying their weapons. Mr. Ringenberg washed down his steak sandwich with a Coke.

But critics of the law say the provision is no guarantee of safety, pointing to a recent shooting in Virginia where a customer who had a permit to carry a concealed weapon shot himself in the leg while drinking beer at a restaurant.

“Guns and alcohol don’t mix; that’s the bottom line,” said Michael Drescher, a spokesman for Governor Phil Bredesen of Tennessee, a Democrat, who vetoed the bill but was overridden by the legislature.

The law allows restaurant and bar owners to prohibit people from carrying weapons inside their establishments by posting signs out front. But many restaurateurs are reluctant to discourage the patronage of gun owners, often saying privately that they do not allow guns but holding off on posting a sign.

“I’ve talked to a lot of restaurants, and probably 50 to 60 percent of them have no clue what’s going on,” said Ray Friedman, 51, who has created a Web site listing the firearms policies of area restaurants.

Previously, states like Tennessee did not allow its residents to carry concealed weapons unless they had a special permit from the local authorities. That began to shift in the mid-1990s, as the gun lobby pushed states to adopt policies that made permits for concealed weapons more accessible.

The new law passed with broad legislative support, despite opposition from the Nashville Chamber of Commerce and the Tennessee Hospitality Association.

So far, the law has been challenged only once. Filed by an anonymous waiter, the complaint contended that allowing guns into a tavern creates an unsafe work environment for servers. His complaint was denied by the state’s Division of Occupational Safety and Health.

“A loaded concealed weapon in a bar is a recognized hazard,” said David Randolph Smith, a lawyer who represents the waiter and is preparing to appeal the decision. “I have a right to go into a restaurant or bar and not have people armed. And of course, the waiter has a right to a safe workplace.”

Down at Bobby’s Idle Hour, however, Mike Gideon said he did not believe that guns in bars were unsafe. As he sipped a beer in the fading afternoon light, Mr. Gideon, who characterized his 19-gun collection as “serious,” said that having a few permit holders around made any public space safer and that he boycotts any business that does not allow him to carry a weapon.

“People who have gun permits have the cleanest records around,” said Mr. Gideon, 54. “The guy that’s going to do the bad thing? He’s not worried about the law at all. The ‘No Guns’ sign just says to him, ‘Hey, buddy, smooth sailing.’ ”

BBMW
October 7th, 2010, 03:13 PM
I don't think it's so much the allowing guns in bars and (especially restaurants), it's people carrying guns drunk (the alcohol coming from any source). I would have carrying while intoxicated laws, very similar to the driving while intoxicated laws, but probably with lower intoxication limits (maybe .05 BAC).

Fabrizio
October 7th, 2010, 04:15 PM
People carrying guns while drunk.

And what about people carring guns while drinking?

No problem there?

lofter1
October 7th, 2010, 06:44 PM
Damned straight. And don't even think of sitting on that stool. Give me have another one, bartender.

Ninjahedge
October 8th, 2010, 08:46 AM
The difficulty is simple. It is easier to forbid carrying while in a bar than to subject an aggressive individual to a breathalizer while packing heat in a bar.

Also, it is easier for the bar owners to forbid it and not take the heat for what their patrons are trying to pack.

So can be said about many things, I am afraid.....

londonlawyer
October 8th, 2010, 09:13 AM
The gun culture in this country is insane. The US is the most violent first-world nation by a very wide margin. Eliminating guns would help to address this problem. Since gun sales are so highly restricted in Mexico, Mexican drug gangs buy their weapons in the US. Obviously, if we banned gun sales, a black market would still exist, but violence nevertheless would plummet.

BBMW
October 8th, 2010, 12:03 PM
Really? Most people carrying are carrying concealled. So the bar staff is unlikely to know a patron is carrying, unless they're patting people down. Any, really, the people who should be doing the breathalyzering should be cops. This should be handled just like a drunk driving situation.


The difficulty is simple. It is easier to forbid carrying while in a bar than to subject an aggressive individual to a breathalizer while packing heat in a bar.

Also, it is easier for the bar owners to forbid it and not take the heat for what their patrons are trying to pack.

So can be said about many things, I am afraid.....

BBMW
October 8th, 2010, 12:04 PM
No. The drug gangs mostly get their guns from corrupt members of the Mexican army.


Since gun sales are so highly restricted in Mexico, Mexican drug gangs buy their weapons in the US. Obviously, if we banned gun sales, a black market would still exist, but violence nevertheless would plummet.

Ninjahedge
October 8th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Really? Most people carrying are carrying concealled. So the bar staff is unlikely to know a patron is carrying, unless they're patting people down. Any, really, the people who should be doing the breathalyzering should be cops. This should be handled just like a drunk driving situation.

Yep.

You would be surprised what they do at some bars if they feel the need.

If people have concealed before, and it IS outlawed, they will start patting down. If confronted about it "Hey, it's the Law", etc etc.

Strange the way things are looked at. If you were to bring a Katana or a Claymore into a bar, people would yell at you saying that it is too dangerous, but a gun and people are screaming "2nd Amendment!!!"

Ninjahedge
October 8th, 2010, 12:44 PM
No. The drug gangs mostly get their guns from corrupt members of the Mexican army.

Actually, they are finding out that is not the case. Many MAY have started that way, but with guns being cheap and easy to find in the states, why bother bribing an official when you can get better working pieces right over the border?

londonlawyer
October 8th, 2010, 05:42 PM
No. The drug gangs mostly get their guns from corrupt members of the Mexican army.

It's well documented that they get them in wild west places like Arizona.

BBMW
October 10th, 2010, 05:03 PM
Because they don't want the semiautomatic, sporterized versions of assault rifles that can be bought by civilians here. The want the fully automatic real thing. This is what the US gov't has been supplying to the Mexican army, and what members of that army have been selling to the the cartels.


Actually, they are finding out that is not the case. Many MAY have started that way, but with guns being cheap and easy to find in the states, why bother bribing an official when you can get better working pieces right over the border?

Ninjahedge
October 12th, 2010, 08:23 AM
Aren't many of the "sportsterized" versions of guns easily converted back with additional sets bought to do just that?

I have not seen a shortage of people with assault rifles re-tooled to be fully automatic on "enthusiast" sites....

BBMW
October 12th, 2010, 04:24 PM
^
Not for a couple of decades. The ATF cracked down on that years ago. They can't take parts from the full auto versions.

BankerToBe
October 13th, 2010, 05:13 AM
The gun culture in this country is insane. The US is the most violent first-world nation by a very wide margin. Eliminating guns would help to address this problem. Since gun sales are so highly restricted in Mexico, Mexican drug gangs buy their weapons in the US. Obviously, if we banned gun sales, a black market would still exist, but violence nevertheless would plummet.

But you still manage to spend plenty of time here so I guess it can't all be that bad.

You want to change the Second Amendment? And you're from London? Good luck with that one. There's somewhat of an historical precedent of treating English dudes who say "Hey Yankees, Put Down Your Weapons!" and it didn't finish up like you probably think. Dude what you are saying is like something from The Onion. "British Man Says US Citizens Should Abandon Right To Bear Arms".

BWAHAHAHAH!

Ninjahedge
October 13th, 2010, 08:05 AM
Bwa ha ha?

Um, read around B2B, nobody posts like that here.

BankerToBe
October 16th, 2010, 05:13 AM
London Lawyer:
"More States Allowing Guns in Bars and Restaurants": Is this country TOTALLY nuts?


The extent of insanity in the United States is truly surreal.No Sir, there is just a difference between a country where good manners are actually demonstrated, not talked about as some kind of fictional invented tradition and paid lip service to.

Please, stop imposing your 19th Century ideas of the world and your cultural superiority and purity onto this forum. It's tiring and to some, likely insulting. I know its hard being raised in a monocultural European country and then being exposed to another world, but deal with these feelings elswhere. No one is lower than you because you simply think that way.

But what would I know? Im just another watered down European/Brit - right?

londonlawyer
October 16th, 2010, 07:54 AM
Lighten up, Francis.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YOa1xSkWscM/ReMtayb44hI/AAAAAAAAAD0/FDjkEz6VFRk/s1600/Lighten%2BUp%2BFrancis1092318449.jpg

You should watch Stripes some time.

At the very least, this clip should be useful to you in regard to identifying your personality foibles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrllCZw8jiM

lofter1
October 16th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Will this cause imbibers to do crazy things in bars? Dunno. As long as it doesn't come to THIS (http://www.chron.com/news/photogallery/Phuket_Vegetarian_Festival_.html#23634583).

HoveringCheesecake
October 19th, 2010, 11:22 PM
Aren't many of the "sportsterized" versions of guns easily converted back with additional sets bought to do just that?

I have not seen a shortage of people with assault rifles re-tooled to be fully automatic on "enthusiast" sites....

No, it is very expensive and illegal as hell. Anyone posting on an enthusiast site with a REAL fully automatic assault rifle is asking for it.

I considered purchasing a legalized version of the AK-74 for use out here on the prairie since they are relatively cheap, but then I realized I'd soon be moving to a city where it'd probably be illegal and at the very least useless.

Ninjahedge
October 20th, 2010, 07:50 AM
It would look cool over the Flat Screen TV..........

Jay Led
October 26th, 2010, 01:57 AM
Arizona is a full on right to carry state because the NRA owns us. Guns are allowed in restaurants and bars, so long as the gun toter doesn't imbibe. I'm sure this is carefully monitored by . . .

There are no restrictions on the right to carry. Ya' know, little issues like training, licensing. You're of age, have money, want a gun, go buy it.

The NRA currently hasa proposition on our ballot to guarantee hunting and fishing rights. They want to make it a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to kill animals.

Arizonans make the Tea Party look like the Enlightment.

Ninjahedge
October 26th, 2010, 10:02 AM
Fishing in AZ.

Now that is funny.

BBMW
October 26th, 2010, 10:29 AM
Maybe we should switch, you come here, and I'll head out there.


Arizona is a full on right to carry state because the NRA owns us. Guns are allowed in restaurants and bars, so long as the gun toter doesn't imbibe. I'm sure this is carefully monitored by . . .

There are no restrictions on the right to carry. Ya' know, little issues like training, licensing. You're of age, have money, want a gun, go buy it.

The NRA currently hasa proposition on our ballot to guarantee hunting and fishing rights. They want to make it a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to kill animals.

Arizonans make the Tea Party look like the Enlightment.

ZippyTheChimp
October 26th, 2010, 10:56 AM
If you're afraid of crime, head out to Phoenix, where gun-totin' citizens have everything under control.

2005 crime rates compared: New York City/Phoenix

Murder - 6.6/15.0
Rape - 17.4/36.4
Robbery - 305/289
Assault - 344/389

Burglary - 286/1109
Larceny - 1490/3583
Car Theft - 226/1673

LOL.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004902.html

Ninjahedge
October 26th, 2010, 01:57 PM
Well, at least you are less likely to be robbed out there.

They are nice enough to leave your stuff on you after they assault, rape, murder you and take your car......

Fabrizio
October 27th, 2010, 06:03 AM
Of course much of the crime out there is fueled by their use of meth.

More statistics Arizona/New York:

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k6/statemeth/stateMeth.htm

---

But hey what do want? Phoenix even beats NYC for births-to-unmarried-women:

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?loct=3&by=a&order=a&ind=7&dtm=258&tf=17

---

Gee... maybe that's the reason why Arizona ranks 50th (i.e. last) in education by state rankings:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0931043.html

Happy hunting!

Ninjahedge
October 27th, 2010, 07:56 AM
Awww shoot.



BTW....

But hey what do want?

Gee... maybe that's the reason why Arizona ranks 50th (i.e. last) in education by state rankings:


(I could not resist)....

Fabrizio
October 27th, 2010, 08:05 AM
Correction: "But hey what do u want?