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TREPYE
December 16th, 2010, 08:14 AM
New York Knicks, Amar'e Stoudemire turn back time against Boston Celtics at Madison Square Garden

Mike Lupica (http://www.nydailynews.com/authors/Mike%20Lupica)
Thursday, December 16th 2010, 4:00 AM


http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/12/16/alg_amare_stoudemire_dunks.jpg Simmons/News
Amar'e Stoudemire has his way for most of the night against Glen Davis (l.), Marquis Daniels and the Celtics, but Paul Pierce's jumper with .4 seconds (below) sends the Celtics out on top.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/12/16/amd_paul_pierce_go_ahead_shot.jpg Simmons/News








They came down the stretch the way they did Wednesday night, into all the noise that kept rolling in from the past, out of the collective memory of the place. And on this night, it wasn't just the Knicks (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/New+York+Knicks) who were back like this, big as they were Wednesday night and big as they have been this season, but the Knicks vs. Celtics was back, too. It was as much a part of the magic of the night as anything else. LeBron and them are here Friday night. It can't be better than what the Garden saw Wednesday night from the Knicks and Celtics. And what it felt. And what it remembered most of all.
Now, at the very end, after it turned out the basketball night was officially over, there was still one last shot that left Amar'e Stoudemire (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Amare+Stoudemire)'s hands from the left side, at the Celtics' end of the Garden. Or maybe Larry Johnson (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Larry+Johnson)'s end.
Paul Pierce (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Paul+Pierce), who played a magnificent game for the Celtics, had just ended up with Stoudemire at the other end, then backed off him and made the jumper with .4 left that put Boston ahead by a basket.
"He was able to get the step-back," Stoudemire said later. "Got the step-back, made the jumper."
Still the Knicks thought they could win the night. All the big nights this season from Stoudemire, all those games in a row with 30 points. Now he was trying to get past 40 against the Boston Celtics (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Boston+Celtics), trying to make one last shot, this one from out on 33rd St. Trying to win the game with a 3.
The ball went in. And the Garden went mad, happier than it has been in 10 years. It all seemed to happen at once, the ball going through and the buzzer sounding. In that moment, the whole place felt and sounded as it did when the Knicks mattered.
"Classic," an old adversary of the place, Sam Cassell (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Sam+Cassell), would say. "Classic NBA (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/National+Basketball+Association) basketball. Classic Madison Square Garden (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Madison+Square+Garden)."
But you can't catch and shoot the way Stoudemire did with .4 left on the clock, you really have to catch and shoot in the same motion. Clearly Stoudemire had not done that, the refs knew it and the Celtics knew it. The call on the court was that the shot was late and the replay said the shot was late. One beat late. Celtics 118, Knicks 116. The Garden on this night had gotten everything except the ending it wanted.
"A second late," Stoudemire said.
The ending does not change the fact that the Knicks have made themselves the story of the early season in the NBA, more than the Heat (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Miami+Heat), more than the West. More than the Celtics, who are 20-4 now. The Celtics are a great team. They were not at their best Wednesday night. They beat the Knicks anyway. It is what great teams do.
But the Knicks are where they are, they have made themselves a team to watch and care about again, because of the way they stood in there Wednesday night against the Celtics. Don't worry, they are a playoff team again. They are going to be around.
"We take away a lot," Mike D'Antoni (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Mike+D'Antoni) said when it was over. "We stood up pretty well."
Then somebody asked him about the excitement of the night, of the game, of the occasion and he said, "This is what you hope for." He hasn't been around long enough to fully understand just how much.
The Celtics led this game at 7-5 and did not lead it again until 116-113, did not take the lead back until the Celtics threw it to Ray Allen (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Ray+Allen) in the right corner, there at the end of the Knicks' bench, and Allen, who had 26 points, buried a three-pointer. The Knicks don't cover much. But you've got to cover Allen in the corner at 113-all.
But then the Italian kid came right back. This was Danilo Gallinari (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Danilo+Gallinari)'s shining moment as a Knick Wednesday night. The kid got shut out in the first half and did not look to be up to the circumstances, or the occasion. But he scored 20 in the second half against the Celtics. He threw down amazing dunks, one of them a drive from the lefthand corner and a reverse that rattled the basket and tried to make more of the ceiling at the Garden fall from the sky. Not Starks against the Bulls. But pretty good and pretty loud.
Now Gallinari threw up this playground shot from the left and got fouled and made the free throw. So it was 116 for the Knicks and 116 for the Celtics at the Garden, 50 seconds left. The great basketball night in a decade looking for an ending now.
Pierce, who had 30 points by now, threw a bad pass to Allen, and Allen couldn't handle it and Landry Fields (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Landry+Fields) came up with the ball. But Stoudemire, who has been so brilliant this season, who hears "MVP" chants now, got inside and faced up and had as easy a shot as he'd had all night outside of his dunks. One that might have won this game. And missed somehow. And Paul Pierce came down with the ball.
Twelve seconds left. Celtics ball. Game still tied. Knicks and the Celtics, going toe to toe again. All that. The last time they both had good records this late into a season was 18 years ago. When Doc Rivers (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Doc+Rivers), now the Celtics coach, was still a Knick. The ball ended up in Pierce's hands. Stoudemire ended up on him, right side. Pierce stepped back, made it. Four-tenths of a second left. Pierce ran a victory lap around the Garden.
Finally the ball was in Stoudemire's hands again, then it was in the air. Then through the net. Ten years after the last basketball nights we had like this, one second too late.
Previous Page

TREPYE
December 16th, 2010, 08:34 AM
This was the most fun I have had watching a basketball game in 10 years. 10 Years! Years of ineptitudes, awful players, garbage coaching, moronic managment that added up to meaningless games and a despirited Madison Square Garden. Undoubtedly Stoudemie is the best player the Knicks have had since Sprewell and Ewing. I was jumping for joy cuz I thought he nailed it on time. Even when they called it off I was still elated because of the quality of the game that they played.

The Knicks of the 90's were my childhood idols. Besides the center, they had mediocre talent but world-class heart. Ewing was the talent, Oakley and Mason were the hustle and Starks (my all-time favorite player) was the heart of a very memorable team. They taugh me that the value of playing hard can make up for many shortcomings. They hung in there with the great Jordan all those years and gave me many disappointing and sleepless nights. If it wasn't for David Stern's fascination with having Jordan in the Finals every year they might have won a championship or two. To be honest, at the back end of that run I was sick of the constant heartache. Now I miss it.

Yesterdays game hopefully signifies that the Knicks are back and ready to take us on those gut-wrenching contest that hurt oh-so-good.

ZippyTheChimp
December 16th, 2010, 11:38 AM
Glad someone remembers when the Knicks were relevant, when February sports wasn't just waiting for March Madness or baseball. St john's filled the void for a while, but have fallen back. NYC has been hoops starved for too long. The NBA was foolish to allow its biggest media market to deteriorate.

At the start of the season when the Knicks lost several games, I texted a friend in California who has been a Knicks fan since the Ewing years "The Knicks suck." Since that message, they had won 8 in a row.

I caught the first-half at a bar, then went home and watched from the middle of the third quarter to the end. Garden sounded like 1973, when I went to every playoff game. hopefully, the Knicks can continue rebuilding, and get Carmello Anthony.

ZippyTheChimp
January 5th, 2011, 10:56 AM
Knicks beat Spurs.

eddhead
January 5th, 2011, 05:21 PM
.. and how cool is that?

dougm
May 3rd, 2011, 03:40 AM
I am sorry to tell everyone, but the Knicks ain't going nowhere with Amare and Melo. These guys are famous for being "me first" players, not team players. And the Knicks are paying them so much that it will be difficult to get help for them. It would help if they played some defense. Maybe, maybe if the Knicks get Chris Paul, you could have something here, but only because Chris Paul is amazing, and he is so good he might get the other two in line somehow. But I doubt it.

What the Knicks really need is to get rid of Dolan. Any chance of that?

lofter1
February 11th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Dude in the GROOVE ...

Lin KILLS IT at 1:20 , 2:20 + 2:30


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xou8l5GRaNQ

ZippyTheChimp
February 11th, 2012, 12:17 PM
We may have another Victor Cruz.

GordonGecko
February 13th, 2012, 11:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9yVnKQNj58


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLzrLXQIbwM

antinimby
February 14th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Linsanity continues! :)

Ninjahedge
February 15th, 2012, 09:41 AM
I seriously, SERIOUSLY hope this does not go one of two ways.

1. Quick burn out (Michael Chang? Juvie tennis star that was out before he was 30, I believe).
2. Head Games. He does not become full of himself and forget the couch he was recently sleeping on.


I do not think 2 will happen. He does not seem to be that kind of personality. But I hope he stays true. That sport (indeed ALL sports) need a few more role models....

lofter1
February 15th, 2012, 12:08 PM
Michael Chang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chang) was anything but a "quick burn out" ...Retiring from pro tennis by 30 is hardly unusual. Chang was a pro player for 15 years (turned pro at 16, after 4 years of exemplary junior play); he won 34 top matches and earned nearly $20 million in prize $ during those pro years:


He was a year-end top-ten player for six consecutive years in the 1990s (1992–1997), a feat matched in the decade only by Pete Sampras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Sampras). He is one of a few players to win ATP titles in three different decades, and his three Indian Wells Masters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Wells_Masters) championships (1992, 1996, 1997) are an ATP record, equaled only by Roger Federer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer).



Fingers crossed that Lin will keep the Lin-sanity going for years to come.

Ninjahedge
February 15th, 2012, 12:19 PM
Funny, I just remember him being the rage, then slipping from public notice rather quickly....

It may have just been his coverage more than his actual career....

ZippyTheChimp
February 15th, 2012, 12:41 PM
L-I-N.

The perfect name for headlines. Just put an L in front of any IN-word.

Linsanity
Thrillin'

So the rag New York Post can't come up with anything other than Amasian. :rolleyes:
The guy was born in LA; went to high school in Santa Clara. He's an American.

Which brings up a silly caller to talk radio, who theorized that Lin being overlooked was racist in nature, and he was noticed here because of the large Asian-American population.

Hello! Lin played for Palo Alto HS, in the San Fran Metro Area, and was on the GS Warriors. He also was on the Houston Rockets, who Yao Ming played for.

Ninjahedge
February 15th, 2012, 01:33 PM
You know the reason he was over looked was because he was short, right?

:rolleyes:

TREPYE
February 16th, 2012, 01:47 PM
First thing I noticed when I finally saw him is that he's a throwback (high dribble, simple straight-up layups).

Now that I got a full sampling I cannot help to be marveled that such basketball players can exist. His court vision is not great, its magical. He dribbles in and out of traffic with seeming ease, manipulates defenders, hit an open shot and fearlessly takes it to the hole and take his lumps in the lane like a man. Joe Beningo correctly mentioned that in yesterdays Kings game with all the fancy passes, open looks, alley-oops they looked like the freaking Harlem Globetrotters!

Two drawbacks: turnover prone and not a high percentage foulshooter (as a point guard should be); Im still on fence about his defense. No doubt the league will adjust to him, Im fascinated to see how he handles it.
Nonetheless it is a magnificent story and the BEAUTIFUL spectacle of team basketball that the Knicks are playing is one that the fans deserve after all these years of the exact opposite.


Lin KILLS IT at 1:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xou8l5GRaNQ

That spin move he rolled on Derek Fisher (one of the premier defenders of the generation) is not just a great move, it is the validation point for me. He is real....:D

ZippyTheChimp
February 16th, 2012, 02:25 PM
I agree about the turnovers, but he's still a rookie.

As for defense, quick guards may give him trouble, but during this run, I've noticed the emergence of Imam Shumpert as a defensive player. Also Jared Jeffries. While Lin has given the D'Antoni offense its necessary PG, late defense - something the Knicks haven't had in years - has been the difference in several of the games.

Check out the last two Toronto possessions:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14-k_nEDvNs

eddhead
February 16th, 2012, 03:33 PM
When Melo gets back Jeffries will sit and the Knicks' late game defense will suffer. Also I am concerned about the chemistry between Lin and Antony on he offensive side of he ball. But I am hopeful it can be worked out.

TREPYE
February 16th, 2012, 03:44 PM
I've noticed the emergence of Imam Shumpert as a defensive player.

Shumpert reminded me of Darelle Revis the way he defended that Toronto guard.... complete shutdown.
Lets not forget Chandler who is even better than I thought he was going to be. Worthy enough to be associated with the name Debusschere and Oakley defensively. Chandler and Lin are a alley-oop factory...

ZippyTheChimp
February 16th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Lin + Melo is the only thing left.

Amar'e should be happy with his bread and butter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUb84FtTDI

ZippyTheChimp
February 16th, 2012, 05:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=J6QDg0m9T3Y

GordonGecko
February 16th, 2012, 05:05 PM
When Melo gets back Jeffries will sit and the Knicks' late game defense will suffer. Also I am concerned about the chemistry between Lin and Antony on he offensive side of he ball. But I am hopeful it can be worked out.

I agree with you on the defensive side, rightly or wrongly my impression of Melo is that he's lazy defending. But Lin had an interview on WFAN this morning and had this exchange:

Craig Carton: "We've also heard...that it's Carmelo Anthony who told Mike D'antoni, 'Put Lin in the game' - is that true?"

Jeremy Lin: "That's true, and y'know...I've been hearing reports 'can Jeremy co-exist with Melo' and this and that -- and I'm just confused because he's the one who vouched for me in the first place. And so you know, we want to play together and we want to work together and we're buying into that. Some people call Melo selfish and say he doesn't buy into the team, and that's just tough for anyone to hear especially when we don't think it's true."

Ninjahedge
February 17th, 2012, 10:47 AM
Awesome quote GG.

The more I hear from this guy, the more I like him. A team player with enough modesty to give credit where due. I hope it stays that way.

ZippyTheChimp
February 17th, 2012, 04:57 PM
Linfluence

The TW-MSG seven week long dispute is settled.

Ninjahedge
February 17th, 2012, 06:05 PM
Linfluence

The TW-MSG seven week long dispute is settled.

Punny. ;)

sabin
February 24th, 2012, 09:30 AM
It is now becoming Lin-normal after being defeated by the Nets and the Heat. Melo and Stoudemire, to me, play below their potential and Lin plays above it except for his turnovers which has plagued him even when the run started. In any event, it is good to see the Knicks become a factor again. Defense wins playoffs games so you never know. They could get to the 2nd round or the Eastern Finals.

hbcat
February 24th, 2012, 11:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Hq40rs2ck

lofter1
February 24th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Local Chinatown activists pulled a Lin-sanely good play (http://www.ccrcnyc.com/2012/02/senator-squadron-and-senator-avella.html) and forced an end to the MSG / TWC stalemate:

VIMEO: Press conference (http://vimeo.com/37132386) - Senators Squadron and Avella with Congresswoman Nydia Valzquez on MSG Network - Time Warner Cable deal

TREPYE
March 7th, 2012, 08:34 PM
2-4 since Melo's return. Its so much the record but the manner in which he has dragged the team down since his return.

Carmelo Anthony is a total stagnation for the offense. As soon as he gets the ball no matter what, even if he is triple teamed or being converged upon, he will attempt the shot --if he get swatted or misses and gets his own rebound he still takes the shot <sigh> a TOTAL black hole. He has hands as soft as pillows but man what a moron for shot selection. Talented with a ten cent head....

We have yet to reap the benefits of his being here, even when he scored 45 pts in the playoffs last year we still lost the game.

Besides the fact that he brings this one-on-one game that is unwatchable at points, and frankly basketball at its worst. Whereas the team offense -constant movement, looking for and passing it to the open man- that DAntoni preaches is a thing of beauty when it is being well executed (and Anthony was not around to disrupt it) and, conversely, basketball at its best.

OmegaNYC
March 9th, 2012, 12:49 AM
Howard for Melo and Chandler. I'll make that trade.

GordonGecko
March 9th, 2012, 12:08 PM
Howard for Melo and Chandler. I'll make that trade.
what? You're crazy. I'll take Howard straight up for Melo but the Knicks need a big man on center, that would make the team worse not better

ZippyTheChimp
March 9th, 2012, 02:06 PM
Chandler should be untouchable. The Knicks don't have the quality defense that gives them the option of trading away their center. They'd only have to replace him, and they wouldn't find someone as good. With all the talk about the offense, the poor defense is a big problem. cost them the game at Boston, right down to the end.

As for the offense, what the Knicks probably need most is a complete training camp. Not what they got this year - lockout; two star scorers out with injuries (Stoudemire still doesn't look right); a point guard with less than a month in the NBA.

I don't like the bench rotation; too many players. It seems D'Antoni is just managing playing-time rather than in-game coaching.

The Knicks got what they needed this year: a young point guard that knows how to play. but Linsanity over two weeks masked the reality - Lin is a rookie with a lot to learn. The quality guards on the teams they have to beat are eating him up.

Now is not a good time to be making trades.

ZippyTheChimp
March 9th, 2012, 02:20 PM
BTW: I discount Howard replacing Chandler because of money. Whether or not the deal is good for the Knicks, it makes no sense for the Magic. If they want to trade Howard, then they're looking to rebuild by dumping his salary.

Howard is signed through next year at $19 million. Both Melo and Chandler have three more years after this season. Melo will go from $19 to $23 million; Chandler $13 to $14 million.

eddhead
March 9th, 2012, 04:11 PM
I was about to write the same thing. As much as I like Chandler (and I like him a lot), I would trade him and Melo for Howard in a heartbeat. The problem is cap consideratons on the Magic's side.

eddhead
March 14th, 2012, 11:19 AM
March 13, 2012

Anthony and Knicks Can’t Play TogetherBy HOWARD BECK (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/howard_beck/index.html?inline=nyt-per)As they steeled themselves late Monday for a grinding, gripping final 12 minutes in Chicago, the Knicks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/newyorkknicks/index.html?inline=nyt-org) broke into two factions along the bench. At one end, a swarm of players gathered around the coaching staff. At the other, Carmelo Anthony (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/carmelo_anthony/index.html?inline=nyt-per) sat stoically, a towel over his shoulders, alone.

“I do that every game,” Anthony would say later, smiling.

Anthony knew he would be on the bench to start the fourth quarter, as he often is. It was perhaps not that vital for him to join his 14 teammates in the huddle. Yet in the context of the Knicks’ current struggles, the imagery was striking, and telling.

The Knicks are not a unified team. On one side is Anthony. On the other is everyone else.

It is evident in Anthony’s body language, in his teammates’ postgame remarks and in the minor wrinkles of the box score. It is most glaring in the win-loss ledger, which has been inverted since Anthony rejoined the lineup.

The Knicks were 7-1 without Anthony last month (including a victory over Utah in which he played only six minutes). They have lost 8 of 10 games since he returned.

For two weeks, the Knicks played a fluid, joyful game in which everyone thrived and pulled for one another. The joy has faded, pushed aside by tension and resentment and a six-game losing streak.

The causes are varied, and Anthony is not solely to blame. But multiple people with ties to the team cite a growing divide between Anthony and his teammates that is threatening to derail the season.

Anthony is breaking plays and demanding the ball in isolation, then snapping at teammates when they fail to get it to him. It happened late Monday, when Anthony called for the ball in the post, then smacked his hands in anger after Landry Fields went elsewhere. More often, Anthony saves the criticism for more private moments, on the bench or in the locker room.

Anthony wants the Knicks to play through him, as every team has throughout his career. He is, by is own admission, uncomfortable in an offense in which he is not the primary ball-handler. That role is now capably filled by Jeremy Lin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/jeremy_lin/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Baron Davis.

“He wants 20 shots a game,” a person with ties to another Knicks player said of Anthony. “He has had a scorer’s mentality his whole life.”


Yet the team that Anthony rejoined in late February no longer needs a 20-shot-a-game player. The Knicks have scoring options in Amar’e Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler, Steve Novak, Iman Shumpert, Fields and Lin — the group that spearheaded the seven-game winning streak last month. They have since added more scoring in Davis and J. R. Smith. They are at their best when everyone is involved.

That is the philosophy that Coach Mike D’Antoni (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/mike_dantoni/index.html?inline=nyt-per) preaches daily, one that is echoed by Stoudemire after nearly every defeat.

“All of us, every single player, has to buy into it, and give the coach a chance for his strategy to work,” Stoudemire said after Sunday’s loss to the Philadelphia 76ers. “If we don’t, then see what happens.”

These critiques and speeches about “sacrifice” are always unspecific and carefully worded, but it is understood that they are intended for Anthony, the only Knick talented enough to repeatedly break plays and get away with it.

The fact is, Anthony is not performing at a level that warrants more shots or self-indulgent play. He is shooting a career-low 40 percent from the field. The Knicks are 2-11 this season when he has 20 or more attempts.

For the past 10 games, the Knicks have been demonstrably worse when Anthony plays. With Anthony on the court, the Knicks are scoring at a rate of 97.7 points per 100 possessions. When he is on the bench, that rating soars to 109.8.

The contrast is just as sharp on defense: the Knicks give up 107.1 points per 100 possessions with Anthony on the court, 95.1 with Anthony on the bench. His personal differential, a minus-9.4 rating, is the worst on the team in that 10-game stretch.

Nor is Anthony fulfilling his presumed role as a clutch performer. He misfired repeatedly down the stretch in Chicago, adding to a string of fourth-quarter failures this season. He intentionally fouled Kyle Korver and sent him to the line on a key possession in the final minute, with the Knicks down by 4, after the players had been instructed to simply play defense.

This is not an issue of whether D’Antoni’s coaching or his system suits Anthony, or whether Anthony likes D’Antoni. The question is whether Anthony is willing to subjugate his game for the greater good, as his teammates are demanding.

If not, he risks losing more than just his team’s respect. Fans who swooned over Anthony 13 months ago are booing him during introductions. Columnists are dissecting every comment, every shot attempt and every sideline gesture.

The Knicks are 12-20 with Anthony in the lineup this season, and 25-34 since he put on the uniform.

Carmelo Anthony wanted the Knicks. He demanded the trade that cost them four starters and multiple draft picks, and the $65 million extension that came with it. Anthony wanted the New York spotlight. Now he must accept the glare.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/sports/basketball/anthonys-return-has-hurt-the-knicks.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=print

eddhead
March 14th, 2012, 04:40 PM
Wow, I guess we know who wears the pants in the Knicks org. I am not the biggest D'Antoni fan, but I HATE to see this team become Anthony dominated.

D’Antoni Resigns as Knicks’ CoachBy THE NEW YORK TIMESMike D’Antoni (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/mike_dantoni/index.html?inline=nyt-per) has resigned as coach of the Knicks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/newyorkknicks/index.html?inline=nyt-org), a move that comes as the team has spiraled downward in a losing streak that has reached six games and threatens its chances of qualifying for the N.B.A. playoffs.

D’Antoni was in his fourth season as the team’s coach. Just weeks ago he was jubilant over the surprise emergence of Jeremy Lin as a point guard who could orchestrate the team’s offense in the up-tempo way that D’Antoni envisioned.

But the subsequent return from injury of Carmelo Anthony, a star player who never seemed in sync with D’Antoni’s vision that no one offensive player should dominate the ball, quickly soured the Knicks’ situation. Entering Wednesday’s N.B.A. games, the Knicks were 18-24, tied with the Milwaukee Bucks for the eighth and final playoff spot in the Eastern Conference.

Instead of Linsanity, and Sports Illustrated covers devoted to Lin, there was the old, and familiar, intrigue about whether Anthony and D’Antoni could co-exist. On Wednesday morning, Anthony denied to reporters (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/sports/basketball/the-knicks-carmelo-anthony-insists-he-does-not-want-a-trade.html) that he was asking the Knicks for a trade. Instead, hours later, D’Antoni resigned.

GordonGecko
March 14th, 2012, 04:49 PM
His brother and Weber also got fired by the Kincks

eddhead
March 16th, 2012, 05:28 PM
March 15, 2012

Linsanity Has Left the BuildingBy HOWARD BECK (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/howard_beck/index.html?inline=nyt-per)The great lesson of Linsanity — at least, as we understood it in February — is that expertise can be flawed and impressions faulty. Jeremy Lin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/jeremy_lin/index.html?inline=nyt-per) taught us not to assume too much, especially as it pertains to Jeremy Lin.

The Golden State Warriors and the Houston Rockets will attest to this.

Yet as we survey the ever-changing, perpetually dysfunctional Knicks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/newyorkknicks/index.html?inline=nyt-org) landscape, it is hard not to draw one hard conclusion: It’s the end of Linsanity as we know it.

The sudden and surprising change in head coaches almost ensures it.

Lin blossomed because he played in a system that perfectly suited him, for a coach who believed in him and needed him. Lin restored the aesthetics and the excitement to Mike D’Antoni (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/mike_dantoni/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s frenetic offense and restored faith at Madison Square Garden.

But D’Antoni left the building Wednesday, taking his speedy, free-flowing offense with him. His replacement, Mike Woodson, is an old-school coach and Larry Brown disciple who emphasizes defense, ball control and isolation play. He does not push the tempo, or rely heavily on the pick-and-roll. He holds a tight leash on his point guards.

He prefers veterans to rookies. He wants the offense to run through his stars. He will run most of his plays for Carmelo Anthony (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/carmelo_anthony/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Amar’e Stoudemire.
None of this bodes well for Lin.

“Woody’s inclination would not be to play him,” said a person who has worked with Woodson.

This will be a delicate matter for Woodson, who has 23 games to establish himself, right the ship and get the Knicks in the playoffs. Despite his recent struggles, Lin remains wildly popular at the Garden, and with fans around the world, who were captivated by his incredible, come-from-nowhere rise.
Lin is beloved by most of his teammates, who appreciate him for reviving their season with a seven-game winning streak and what seemed like a million uncanny clutch plays. But circumstances have changed, and Woodson cannot afford to be sentimental.

The Knicks have lost 8 of their last 11 games, leaving them in a dogfight for the final playoff spot in the Eastern Conference. And Lin is no longer the dominant force who carried them in February. His production over the last nine games — 14.4 points and 7.3 assists — was solid, but he shot 37.7 percent and averaged 4.2 turnovers over that stretch.

In his first game under Woodson on Wednesday, Lin had 6 points, 6 assists and 6 turnovers. That he struggled so badly in a 121-79 victory seemed like a bad sign. Woodson, according to his former associate, will not tolerate many six-turnover games from his point guard.

This is where D’Antoni was so critical to Lin’s success. D’Antoni not only provided the platform, but he also gave Lin the freedom to explore, to create and to make mistakes, to make the aggressive pass and to take the open shot, without fear of reprisal.
Linsanity Has Left the Building
Anthony was never comfortable in a Lin-centric offense. He bristled over having to “sacrifice for the system,” which ultimately led to D’Antoni’s resignation. But Anthony remains the Knicks’ most dynamic player and the one most critical to their long-term success. So as Woodson edits the Knicks’ playbook, it is a certainty that Anthony will not be asked to sacrifice much of anything.

In Atlanta, where Woodson guided the Hawks to three playoff appearances, the emphasis was squarely on his stars: Joe Johnson and Josh Smith. He ran so many isolation plays for Johnson that his offense became known (derisively) as Iso-Joe. Those plays will now belong to Anthony.

“His best players get the most shots,” the former associate said. “Melo’s going to love it. Amar’e’s going to love it. And the other 12 guys are not going to like it so much.”

Lin could lose the starting job to Baron Davis, a seasoned former All-Star who is bigger, stronger and a better defender. Toney Douglas, whose strength is his defense, could get another look under Woodson, after being benched by D’Antoni. Mike Bibby, who played for Woodson in Atlanta, could also win a greater role.

It seemed telling when Woodson referred to the 23-year-old Lin, a virtual rookie, as being “in a learning stage.” He then invoked Red Holzman, “who taught me that rookies were to sit and listen and learn,” when Woodson was a Knicks rookie in 1980.

Lin’s unusual journey, from Harvard to the N.B.A., with stops in the Development League and on various couches, has taught him to be an optimist. While he acknowledged that D’Antoni’s offense “was perfect for me,” he said he can adapt.

Yet with D’Antoni gone and Anthony back in the forefront, Lin may never get the same opportunities to shine. The Knicks have no room for error, nor does Woodson, who is coaching for a contract and the permanent job.

Lin is auditioning too, for the entire league, as a free-agent-to-be. A few weeks ago, it seemed a certainty that the Knicks would re-sign him, even if they had to use their entire midlevel exception. But D’Antoni is gone, the offense is changing and everyone has an interim title. A new coach and general manager could decide to spend the money elsewhere.

Lin has crushed conventional wisdom before. He may do it again. But in the Knicks’ twisted universe, there are no certainties and, for now, no room for Linsanity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/sports/basketball/for-the-knicks-linsanity-has-left-the-building.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=print

GordonGecko
March 16th, 2012, 05:47 PM
Al Iannazzone ‏ @Al_Iannazzone
Mike Woodson said Jeremy Lin is the Knicks starting point guard and is a big part of what they do.

Al Iannazzone ‏ @Al_Iannazzone
Lin said he met with Woodson this morning and was told he's the starting point guard and not to worry about anything else.

eddhead
March 16th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Of course he said that. The NY fan base would be all over him if he did not. Doesn't mean shit though. I don't trust Woodson and I really despise Dolan.

They should have traded Anthony.

GordonGecko
March 17th, 2012, 12:39 AM
Well tonight's game says otherwise. Before the game Woodson was quite clear that he favors giving everyone playing time and keeping everyone happy, then he went on to play the entire bench including Bibby! Besides, Woodson is not stupid, he's not going to kill Jim Dolan's cash cow. Lin is worth a fortune in new market share not only from Asian Americans but from Asians the world over

eddhead
March 17th, 2012, 01:43 PM
its one game, and that is not Woodson's style. He would prefer to play a lot of isolation sets. We'll see what happens, but I am not real hopeful.

ZippyTheChimp
March 20th, 2012, 11:45 PM
Knicks are having fun.

eddhead
March 21st, 2012, 11:39 AM
They are having fun and I hope it continues, but I am very concerned about Woodson over the long haul. His history suggests he favors iso sets over ball movement and finding the open man. Good for Anthony, but not so much for the rest of the team. There is less spacing in his offense and less room for team movement. Still, so far so good.

I find myself really resenting Anthony. I feel like he selfishly under performed in order to sabotage the coach, than got what he wanted. I am having a hard time liking him.

ZippyTheChimp
March 21st, 2012, 12:53 PM
Such is the case with many pro athletes. Look at all the nonsense that went on with Howard and the Magic.

Anthony and D'Antoni never got off on the right track. It got into the media that D'Antoni opposed the trade.

The big difference I see is that Woodsen is getting in the players' faces, not so much on offense, but for missing defensive assignments. D'Antoni yelled at the refs a lot, but never at the players.

I think any NBA player who can move with the ball can play defense. It's a matter of wanting to do it. That's the difference now.

I figured that since they weren't going to make the playoffs, D'Antoni would be fired or resign after the season, and the Knicks would get a normal training camp next year.

What happened instead is that the Knicks are in training camp right now. Anthony is still trying to define his roll. I thought he was passing back outside too often when he had low post position, but that seemed to change in the last game. And Stoudameyer looks a lot more fluid around the basket.

Lin is continuing to refine his game, and make adjustments to the way he's being defensed.

eddhead
March 21st, 2012, 02:04 PM
I agree with your comments, espeically those relating to defense which for talanted players lik Anthony and Stoudameyer is more about effort than it is skill. Stoudameyer'sgame in particular is coming around nicely; I don't know if that is a function of his health and fitness or renewed focus.

Woodson is preaching defense and that is good. Still, I really do not want to see this team stand around and watch Anthony and Stoudameyer isolate one on one against the defense. So far so good, but the offensive style they are playing today is not really what Woodson is known for.

ZippyTheChimp
March 21st, 2012, 11:07 PM
Knicks - 76ers

There should be a stat for Team Brain Farts.

GordonGecko
March 22nd, 2012, 11:41 AM
Collins: CHI, MIA don't want to see NYK

Make no mistake, the Knicks are going to do whatever they can over the final 20 games of the season to avoid facing Chicago and Miami in the playoffs. But if they do end up in the bottom of the playoff picture and are forced to face the Bulls or Heat, Doug Collins believes the higher seed won't necessarily be happy.

"When you start looking at it, the cream of the crop is Miami and Chicago and I guarantee you Miami and Chicago sure doesn’t want to see the New York Knicks at 7 or 8, I can tell you that," the Sixers coach said before tip-off of the Knicks-Sixers game on Wednesday.

"There are teams out there saying, I don’t want to play that team," Collins said of the Knicks. "They’re loaded. You look at their frontlline, you’ve got shot blocking in Tyson Chandler, and you’ve got Amare (Stoudemire) and Carmelo (Anthony), and you’ve got Jeremy Lin now playing, and you’ve got guys coming off the bench."

"What I’m seeing is more energy, more tenacity," Collins said before Wednesday's game. "I'm seeing guys up the floor defending, I'm seeing trapping at half court."

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/14924/collins-chi-mia-dont-want-to-see-nyk

ZippyTheChimp
March 27th, 2012, 11:04 AM
Stoudemire out for the season?

Knicks should still make the playoffs, maybe even win the division, but a slim chance of beating the elite teams without Stoudemire.

Woodsen has Never-Met-a-Shot-I-Didn't-Like JR Smith playing defense.

eddhead
March 27th, 2012, 11:42 AM
Stoudemire has been their best player in my view. He had that explosove first step back, was hitting his jumper, and was even a force n Defense. This will hurt.

eddhead
April 10th, 2012, 10:49 AM
I worry about how Anthony will react when Lin and Stoudemire return. If the Knicks turn into a one man show in the playoffs they will be no better than Denver was.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

April 9, 2012

Anthony, Playing His Way, Is Scorer the Knicks Expected

By HOWARD BECK (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/howard_beck/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

The shots were deep, timely and bold — the kind that alter fates, reshape impressions and restore faith. Carmelo Anthony (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/carmelo_anthony/index.html?inline=nyt-per) launched them Sunday afternoon, and when the net swished, there was no doubt in the air at Madison Square Garden, only happy delirium.

This was more than just a celebration. It was delayed gratification, a 19,000-person exhale, a primal scream of relief. This was more than just a 100-99 victory over the Chicago Bulls (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/sports/basketball/anthony-has-final-say-as-knicks-edge-roses-bulls.html?_r=1&ref=sports) (as critical as it was).

This was the Carmelo Anthony whom fans expected when the Knicks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/newyorkknicks/index.html?inline=nyt-org) tore up their roster 14 months ago. This was the payoff that James L. Dolan, the Garden chairman, surely envisioned when he sacrificed four rotation players, three draft picks and $6 million in that trade with the Denver Nuggets.
This was the moment that Anthony himself needed, after a fitful season of injuries, sulking and underachieving. Four Sundays earlier, Anthony was booed for another lackluster showing. Now he was bathed in adoration.

“A great atmosphere,” Anthony said after hitting the two biggest shots of the afternoon — a 3-pointer that forced overtime and another that won the game.
No one ever doubted that Anthony was capable of big scoring totals and big-game heroics. His Nuggets tenure was filled with them. He has consistently ranked among the league’s top clutch performers.

But that Carmelo Anthony was missing this season as he chafed against various forces: a coach he didn’t respect, an offense he didn’t embrace, a surrounding cast that seemed to put a crimp in his swagger. Ankle, wrist, thumb and groin injuries did not help, either.

Over his first 39 games, Anthony averaged 20 points and shot 39.9 percent from the field, career lows. Over the last seven games (http://nytimes.stats.com/nba/playerstats.asp?id=3706&team=18&page=logs), Anthony has averaged 29.9 points while hitting 49 percent of his shots, looking worthy once more of his superstar reputation.
What changed? Just about everything.

Anthony is finally healthy, which is evident in his lift and his shooting stroke. He is clearly happier with Mike Woodson as his coach than he was playing for Mike D’Antoni. By his own admission, Anthony is working harder, especially on defense, since the coaching change March 14. His entire demeanor has transformed over the last four weeks.

Woodson has rewritten the playbook in Anthony’s favor, with more isolation and post-up chances, and greater license to operate one on one — a style that D’Antoni disdained. But Anthony’s renaissance was born of necessity as much as design.

Amar’e Stoudemire is out because of a back injury. Jeremy Lin has been lost to knee surgery. Anthony’s resurgence began the moment that those two — the Knicks’ second- and third-leading scorers — bowed out two weeks ago. This is not coincidental, and it is more than a star player simply picking up the slack.
Anthony is benefiting from more touches and more shots — an average of 21.6 per game since Lin and Stoudemire were lost, an increase of 4.2 per game. But he is also benefiting by a move to power forward (Stoudemire’s spot), where he can beat opponents with his quickness and perimeter game.
“They’re going to play the game through Carmelo,” Orlando Coach Stan Van Gundy said last week. “They’re not trying to split up touches and keep other people happy and everything else.”

The results should not be surprising. Anthony has historically been at his best as a solo act, as the undisputed focal point of his team, as the primary shooter, scorer and ball-handler — the role he has now. He is annually among the league leaders in usage rate, which measures the percentage of team possessions used by a player. Anthony averages 31.2 percent for his career.

Without Stoudemire and Lin, Anthony no longer has to defer, wait for the ball or force himself to be a facilitator, a role he rejected earlier this season.
Anthony and Stoudemire have been an awkward fit since the moment that Anthony arrived in February 2011, each playing better when the other is on the bench. The Lin-Anthony partnership has also been fraught.

The Knicks’ last losing streak coincided with Anthony returning to the lineup, after the Knicks had established a new identity formed around Lin’s ball-handling and passing.

As Anthony said on March 6, after a deflating loss in Dallas (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/sports/basketball/knicks-again-lose-that-winning-feeling.html?scp=1&sq=March 6 Knicks Dallas&st=cse): “I think any time you go from the early part of the season, just having the ball and me just having the ball and being the distributor, and now just running the wings and waiting for the ball to come to me, that’s quite an adjustment for myself.”
That adjustment is no longer necessary. When Lin went down, most of D’Antoni’s spread-the-floor, pick-and-roll offense went with him. Anthony does not have to stand and wait for open shots now — he creates them himself.

For now, it is all working brilliantly. Anthony is happy, productive and thriving. The Knicks have won five of their last seven games — including upsets of Orlando and Chicago — without two key starters.

But at some point, Stoudemire will return. At some point, the Knicks will need Anthony to be more than just a single-minded scorer. Playoff series are rarely won by solo acts, as Anthony’s former team can attest.

The boos are a fading memory. The adoring cheers will last only as long as the wins do.

TREPYE
April 14th, 2012, 11:24 AM
April 13, 2012, 12:21 pmShumpert Is Old School, and in a Good Way

By KEITH SCHLOSSER (http://wirednewyork.com/author/keith-schlosser/)http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/04/14/sports/basketball/14shumpert/14shumpert-articleInline.jpgDarren Hauck/ReutersIman Shumpert playing against Ersan Ilyasova of the Bucks on Wednesday.

J.R. Smith’s heroics were enough to lead the Knicks to what could prove to be the most crucial win of the season, a 111-107 victory over the Bucks on Wednesday.
That he converted only 5 of 13 shots was irrelevant, because Smith, who has been in the N.B.A. playoffs in each of the last five years, made the big plays when it mattered most.
For his frustrating mix of erratic and clutch play, Smith is garnering a comparison to the Knicks fan favorite John Starks, who, although he threw up his fair amount of errant shots, was gutsy enough to take (and often knock down) much-needed baskets down the stretch.
The Knicks signed Smith midseason precisely because he is a playoff veteran who not only handles the pressure, but basks in it.
That said, there is a certain other young gun on the team who is more deserving of such a comparison.
Iman Shumpert is quickly becoming known for his grit and determination as he fills in as the team’s starting two guard. The high level of intensity he plays with each night is similar to that of Starks. The rookie excels and paces the Knicks by playing hard-nosed defense, coming up with steals and diving for loose balls. Even more important, he is a lockdown man-to-man defender.
Shumpert never shies away from a big moment. Whether it is being posted up by the seven-foot Dirk Nowitzki, or trying to contain the league’s reigning M.V.P., Derrick Rose, he seems to welcome challenges. Able to come through in the clutch, Shumpert distracted Rose into an 8-of-26 shooting performance in the Knicks’ thrilling 100-99 Easter Sunday victory over the Bulls.
The 6-foot-5 guard’s skill set will remind New Yorkers of Starks as well. Shumpert can will his way to scoring when his team needs it most, but his real value comes from all of the other things he does well too. Besides providing the Knicks with a strong defensive presence, he rebounds the ball well for a guard and pushes the break.
Shumpert is not a natural point guard by any means, but his speed allows him to run the ball upcourt, though he often finishes at the basket himself rather than passing it off. The downside is that the majority of his shots do not go in. His aggressiveness makes him a bit overzealous at times, but that may simply be part of his growing pains.
Even if his erratic shooting touch is here to stay, the Knicks may be able to continue to win anyway. In three decisive victories so far this month, Shumpert has filled up the stat sheet, averaging 13.3 points, 6.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists, and 2.7 steals. That recognized, he has shot 40 percent from the field all season long, and his percentage did not even rise during that stretch.
Although Shumpert struggles from the field, Coach Mike Woodson has displayed trust in him, keeping him on the floor for an average of 39 minutes per game in April.
Shumpert’s streaky shooting and frantic style of play may cause fans to flinch and cover their eyes in disbelief at times, but they could also prompt them to grow to love him. His desire and intensity recall characteristics personified by many of the old-school, successful Knicks squads.
Shumpert stands to have a long tenure in New York, much like Starks. Should the Knicks simply exercise a couple of team options in his rookie contract, he could be at the Garden through at least 2015.
With available minutes at his position, it would benefit the Knicks to keep Shumpert in the fold, allowing him to not only continue balancing the team, but also to develop into the player that many are optimistic he will become.
Keith Schlosser is the founder and editor of KnicksJournal.com (http://www.knicksjournal.com/). You can find him on Twitter (@KnicksJournal). (http://twitter.com/#!/KnicksJournal)

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/shumpert-is-old-school-and-in-a-good-way/?ref=sports

TREPYE
April 27th, 2012, 01:40 PM
I knew back in 1984 Jordan picked # 23 for a reason....
(Nice jobs Knicks for making this happen)




Lousy but Not Lovable Bobcats

By LYNN ZINSER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/z/lynn_zinser/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

Published: April 26, 2012

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/04/27/sports/yBOBCATS1/yBOBCATS1-articleInline.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:pop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/04/27/sports/yBOBCATS1.html','yBOBCATS1_html','width=720,height =636,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes'))

By every way you can measure, the Charlotte Bobcats (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/charlottebobcats/index.html?inline=nyt-org) are a spectacularly bad team. They spent the last part of their regular season compiling a staggering 23-game losing streak (:)!)and clinching the N.B.A. record for worst winning percentage. They have lost to good teams by large margins and to mediocre teams by almost-as-large margins. After losing to the Knicks in their season finale, 104-84, on Thursday night, they have not won since March 17.


And the Bobcats have done it all with the best player in N.B.A. history grimacing. You can watch it when Michael Jordan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/j/michael_jordan/index.html?inline=nyt-per) shows up to witness the team he became primary owner of in 2010, which he does not do much anymore. When seen, the face of the franchise rarely stops scowling.

People who know Jordan say the losing eats at him. He does not speak to the news media much to share that sentiment, although he granted an interview to The Charlotte Observer (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/04/25/3198262/michael-jordan-defends-bobcats.html)this week after the team’s former coach, Larry Brown (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/larry_brown/index.html?inline=nyt-per), took some public swipes at him.
“I can tell you from knowing him, no one hates losing more than he does,” said Mike Fratello, a former N.B.A. coach who called the Bobcats’ final game against the Knicks on TNT. “You know this is eating away at him. He’s not comfortable with it, but maybe now they’ve hit bottom and they can start over again.”
As a player, Jordan did not have to deal with losing much. He won six championships with the Chicago Bulls. As an owner, though, it has become his constant companion. He started as a minority owner of the Bobcats before buying his majority stake from Robert L. Johnson in 2010. In that time, the Bobcats have sunk from a playoff team with a 44-38 record two years ago to downright horrible.
Their 102-95 loss to Orlando on Wednesday night was their 22nd in a row. The 23rd straight, at home against the Knicks, left the Bobcats at 7-59, and the resulting .106 winning percentage displaced the 1972-73 Philadelphia 76ers as the N.B.A.’s worst ever. Those 76ers were 9-73 for a .110 winning percentage.
The last game Jordan was spotted at was in Chicago — watching a Blackhawks playoff game.
This has left him open to criticism of his work ethic as an owner and recalls his failure as the president of basketball operations for the Washington Wizards after his playing career ended. That disastrous stint included using the No. 1 pick on Kwame Brown and Jordan’s being fired by the owner, Abe Pollin, in 2003.
Brown teed off on Jordan this week in an ESPN radio interview (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/7853845/larry-brown-wanted-more-michael-jordan-time-charlotte-bobcats), saying Jordan surrounded himself with yes men and had people who spied on the coaching staff. That prompted Jordan to defend himself in his interview, in which he said, “My success will be judged differently.”
“I’ve come to accept I’ll be scrutinized more than any other owner,” he said. “I know now that I have to have a tough skin about these things.”
Fratello said it would only be fair to judge Jordan on the Bobcats’ rebuilding after it was truly under way; this season was dedicated mostly to ridding the team of large, unwise contracts.
“The best thing that can happen is for all the Ping-Pong balls to fall their way, get the No. 1 pick, pick the kid from Kentucky and they’re on their way,” Fratello said.
To get the No. 1 pick, the Bobcats would have to win the draft lottery, and most believe the Kentucky freshman Anthony Davis will be the No. 1 pick.
The Bobcats clearly have joined a club no team wants to join, although the worst-ever debates do tend to be fun and colorful.
The 1962 Mets, after all, are remembered as much for Manager Casey Stengel’s entertaining quips as for having the worst record in baseball’s modern era at 40-120. That did not come close to the 1899 Cleveland Spiders (http://www.wcnet.org/&), who were 20-134. They did have an excuse: their owners, the Robison brothers, had also purchased the St. Louis Browns at a sheriff’s auction and, thinking they could make more money in St. Louis, shipped all the best players there.
The 1976 Tampa Bay Buccaneers also had an excuse — they were an N.F.L. expansion team with perhaps the ugliest uniforms in professional sports history. They are remembered for not just their 0-14 record, but also for Coach John McKay responding to a question about his team’s execution by saying, “I’m in favor of it.”
Charlotte got a whiff of worst-ever territory when its Panthers went on a 15-game losing streak in 2001, then an N.F.L. record. The Bucs and the Panthers were relieved of their places in the record books by the 2008 Detroit Lions, who were 0-16.
Hockey’s worst record of the modern era is attached to the 1974-75 Washington Capitals, also an expansion team. In going 8-67-5, the Capitals churned through two coaches, the second one (Red Sullivan) felled by ulcers. They were nearly ousted from the bottom spot by the 1980-81 Winnipeg Jets, renamed by some the Lose-ipeg Jets when they set an N.H.L. record with a 30-game winless streak to finish 9-57-14.
One problem for the Bobcats is that they have not added any charm to their losing ways. Fans are not wearing paper bags. The players are not performing pratfalls on the court. Their coach, Paul Silas, is a respected veteran who has taken to wearing a perpetually bemused look.
“There aren’t any fun characters or funny anecdotes,” said Tom Sorensen, a longtime columnist at The Charlotte Observer. “They just have less talent than the other team every night. It’s tough. It’s tough to watch.”
It is not so tough to find a villain, though, and many have decided it is Jordan.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/27/sports/basketball/bobcats-lousy-but-not-lovable-have-kept-losing.html

OmegaNYC
April 29th, 2012, 12:06 AM
Too much LeBron. Bad calls. Team looked shell-shocked at times and Shump is hurting. Heat will probably sweep this series.

OmegaNYC
May 1st, 2012, 11:19 AM
15388

eddhead
May 1st, 2012, 11:52 AM
I personally think Stoudemire was frustrated by Anthony's ball hogging. Anthony is a great scorer bur that does not necessarily translate to playoff wins. Championship teams tend to feature at least 2 scorers but the Knicks are so focused on getting Anthony his shots that they forgot Stoudemire was on the floor. Watching the game I kept thinking they have to get Stoudemire involved 2. I know he scored 18 but it was a real quiet 18. He was an afterthought.

Anthony has a choice; he can score 30 a game and lose, or socree 20-22 a game, share the ball with Stoudemire and Lin (when he returns) and possibly win some of these games. Look at James and Wade. They each had to make some sacrafices to accomodate the other. But they are doing it and the Heat are thriving.

I know the Knicks are not the Heat, but they can do a better job than this

ZippyTheChimp
May 1st, 2012, 05:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQPUtJC_UJI&amp;feature=related

TREPYE
May 2nd, 2012, 02:14 PM
^ "...Papa told Willie, you'll ruin my home
You and that hand jive have got to go..."
...LMAO

15388

One of the classic and hillarious NY Daily News backpages of all time and lets not forget to mention how egregiously apropos it is. It definiteley soothed a lot of the angst.

eddhead
May 2nd, 2012, 05:34 PM
Source: Tyson Chandler wins award
By Ian Begley
ESPNNewYork.com

NEW YORK -- New York Knicks (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=nyk) center Tyson Chandler (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/984/tyson-chandler) has been voted as the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year, according to a person with knowledge of the award results.

The official announcement is expected to come from the NBA later Wednesday afternoon. Chandler has been arguably the most valuable player on the Knicks' roster this season. He is the driving force behind the Knicks' turnaround on defense. Looking for more information on your Knicks? ESPNNewYork.com has you covered. Blog (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/)



Last season, the Knicks ranked 22nd in defensive efficiency, a measure of points allowed per 100 possessions.

After Chandler was obtained via a three-team sign-and-trade in the offseason, the Knicks surged to fifth in defensive efficiency, thanks largely to Chandler. Interim coach Mike Woodson has said again and again that Chandler deserved consideration for the award.

"He's done everything to put us in the position where we are today," Woodson said last month. "You don't find very many centers that (are) committed like he is, don't have any hidden agendas. You know, it's not about Tyson Chandler, it's always about the team and, you know, that speaks volumes.

"There's a reason why he's a part of the team in Dallas that won a title (last season)," Woodson added. "He's a true pro man and yes, he should be considered for it, absolutely."

The 7-foot-1 Chandler is never one to promote himself, but he admitted last month that he believed he deserved consideration.

"It would mean an awful lot to me," he said. "That was one of my goals coming into the season. I felt like I put myself right in the thick of things. I personally feel like I deserve it. It would be a great honor to win it."

Flu symptoms have slowed Chandler the past five days, including Game 1 against the Miami Heat (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/mia/miami-heat), but said he "felt stronger" in Game 2.

New York trails Miami 2-0 in the best-of-seven first-round playoff series. Game 3 is Thursday at Madison Square Garden.


http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=7880443&type=story

GordonGecko
May 3rd, 2012, 11:17 AM
http://h9.abload.de/img/untitled-1l7y7l.gif

eddhead
May 5th, 2012, 01:31 PM
May 4, 2012
Recognizing the Limitations of Meloball
By HOWARD BECK
GREENBURGH, N.Y.


Alone on a podium late Thursday night, Carmelo Anthony wrapped himself in comfortable catchphrases and verbal deflections. The Miami Heat had not shut him down. He was simply “missing shots that I normally make.”


The Knicks, down three games to none in the playoffs, were not defeated. “Our confidence is high.”


Anthony’s tone was unwavering, his faith absolute. This is how elite talent speaks, with a self-belief that borders on the absurd and occasionally veers into self-delusion.


The Knicks, who have been outscored by 60 points in the series, are not going to be the first N.B.A. team (out of 100) to overcome a 3-0 deficit. Anthony, who is shooting .344 and has twice as many turnovers (12) as assists (6), is not going to lead them back.


The Knicks will soon exit the postseason, their 12th straight year without winning a series. Their 13-game losing streak is the longest in playoff history.


“I wasn’t here for them losses,” Anthony bristled this week, though he has now been here for seven.


His dismissiveness misses the larger point: the Knicks traded a bounty for Anthony — four starters and three draft picks — to end their decade-long drought, to make May and June matter again at Madison Square Garden. Anthony demanded a trade on the premise that he, along with Amar’e Stoudemire, would turn the Knicks into a reasonable facsimile of the LeBron James-Dwyane Wade Heat.


So far, the Anthony-Stoudemire Knicks have accomplished no more than the Stephon Marbury-Tim Thomas Knicks (swept in 2004).


They have had their misfortune — injuries to Stoudemire and Chauncey Billups in 2011, injuries to Stoudemire and Iman Shumpert in 2012 — but great teams find a way to win. And when they fail, the great players absorb, reflect and rededicate themselves.


Anthony is not the reflective type. He has rarely taken responsibility for his team’s failures, preferring to shift blame toward injuries, coaches or the playbook. But the N.B.A. is a star-driven league, and Anthony — a star by reputation, if not achievement — must eventually confront his own résumé.


In nine postseasons, Anthony is 16-36 — the worst record among active players with at least 50 playoff games. He has won a first-round series only once, in 2009. Since then, he has lost 11 of 13 playoff games. If the Knicks lose Sunday, it will be Anthony’s third time getting swept in five years.


Anthony shot .375 against the Boston Celtics in last year’s sweep. He is shooting miserably against Miami, but he is still taking 30 percent of his team’s field-goal attempts while the offense stagnates and the Heat loads up its defense.


Playing Meloball — in which Anthony dominates the offense, usually in ball-pounding isolation sets — got the Knicks through a critical late-season period, without Stoudemire and Jeremy Lin, with a 9-4 record. Anthony was brilliant in that stretch, shooting high percentages and collecting 30-point games while the defense did the rest.


But we are now seeing the limitations of Meloball. It can win 45 to 50 games (as it did in Denver), but it cannot beat a team as talented and disciplined as the Heat.

Stoudemire hardly saw the ball in the first two games of this series. The Knicks’ 3-point shooters are not getting open looks, because the ball is not moving.


Anthony is a great scorer. He is not yet a great player, because he does not consistently elevate his teammates. He averaged a modest 3.6 assists per game this season, and has a career average of 3.1.


By contrast, consider his close friends from the 2003 draft class: Wade has averaged 6.2 assists per game for his career, and James 6.9. Both Miami stars can control a game through their playmaking alone. The same goes for Kobe Bryant (4.7 career average), when the mood strikes.


In Cleveland, James led his teams deep into the playoffs (including the 2007 finals) despite a lackluster lineup, proving that a selfless star is infinitely more valuable than a single-minded gunner.


Kurt Rambis — a former teammate of Magic Johnson and a former coach of Bryant — put it best in an ESPN podcast, saying of Anthony: “One of the things he has to learn is how to involve his teammates more. There’s a lot more to winning ballgames than just scoring points.”


George Karl and Mike D’Antoni tried in vain to sell Anthony on this virtue, costing Karl years of aggravation and D’Antoni his job.


Initially, D’Antoni asked Anthony to play point forward, giving him the ball control he desired, but with equal responsibility for scoring and playmaking. Anthony accepted the role grudgingly and played it poorly.


Once Lin emerged, the Knicks’ playmaking needs were resolved. But Anthony was uncomfortable in a point guard-dominated offense and admitted as much a week before D’Antoni resigned.


So far, the only offense that seems to please Anthony is one where everyone else passes and he shoots.


“Melo is going to have to raise his game,” Coach Mike Woodson said Friday, suggesting that Anthony needs some growth to escape his personal playoff rut. “He’s got to change that.”


Woodson, an interim coach with no leverage, has necessarily catered to Anthony’s desires. With a little job security, he might not be so forgiving. Phil Jackson, if he were enticed by the Garden’s riches, would certainly demand a more team-oriented game.


Anthony will be 28 this month — old enough to be considered a veteran, young enough to learn. The Knicks will never be an elite team until he matures. And he will never truly be a star until he evolves.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/05/sports/basketball/knicks-carmelo-anthony-has-poor-playoff-track-record.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=print

TREPYE
May 11th, 2012, 12:57 PM
Amar'e making the case to switch from Cable to Direct TV....
http://twitpic.com/9jh8uj/full (http://twitpic.com/9jh8uj/full)

ZippyTheChimp
May 11th, 2012, 01:46 PM
^

:)

ZippyTheChimp
May 11th, 2012, 02:47 PM
Recognizing the Limitations of MelobalL
By HOWARD BECK
GREENBURGH, N.Y.Anthony must share some of the blame for what happened to the Knicks this season, but most of it is circumstance on what happened to the team even before the season started.

The article however, is full of simplifications and distortions.


The Knicks, down three games to none in the playoffs, were not defeated. “Our confidence is high.”

Anthony’s tone was unwavering, his faith absolute. This is how elite talent speaks, with a self-belief that borders on the absurd and occasionally veers into self-delusion.What was he supposed to say, that the Heat was a level better and the Knicks stood no chance? We all knew that was true.


The Knicks will soon exit the postseason, their 12th straight year without winning a series. Their 13-game losing streak is the longest in playoff history.

“I wasn’t here for them losses,” Anthony bristled this week, though he has now been here for seven.That's true too; he wasn't here for all those loses.


They have had their misfortune — injuries to Stoudemire and Chauncey Billups in 2011, injuries to Stoudemire and Iman Shumpert in 2012 — but great teams find a way to win. And when they fail, the great players absorb, reflect and rededicate themselves.Who says they were a great team? They hardly played together during the season, short as it was. They were good enough to make the playoffs, and that's what they did.

But this takes the cake, tossed around from one reporter to another:


In nine postseasons, Anthony is 16-36 — the worst record among active players with at least 50 playoff games. He has won a first-round series only once, in 2009. Since then, he has lost 11 of 13 playoff games. If the Knicks lose Sunday, it will be Anthony’s third time getting swept in five years.

The Denver Nuggets were not a great team during the years Anthony was there, but they had to contend with two teams that were: The Spurs and the Lakers. Knick fans should easily understand this, having won nothing during the MJ & The Bulls years, except when he retired for a year.

The only playoff series that I think Denver should have won is against the Clippers in 2006.

In 2004, they lost to the #1seed Timberwolves.

In 2005, they lost to the Spurs, who won the championship.

In 2007, they again lost to the Spurs, who were 16-4 through the playoffs.

In 2008, they lost to the MVP Kobe Bryant led Lakers, who lost the finals to the Celtics.

In 2009, they beat the Hornets and Dallas, and lost again to the Lakers.

eddhead
May 17th, 2012, 04:57 PM
I don't think the article's main premise is that far off the mark. Truely great players are willing to subjegate their shooting game for the benefit of the team. Jordan did not win a Championship until Pippen became a force. LBJ is a better player today (with Wade and Bosh) than he was with Cleveland. Same with Magic and Bird.

The Knicks will not succeed playing Iso-Melo basketball. They need to get more players involved in the offense. The way things are now, there is no ball movement just shove the ball into Melo on the blocks and stand around and watch him shoot 12-30. Not good.

Until Anthony learns how to elevate the play of those around him, this team will continue to be what it is; a 4-8 seed playoff team that will never get to the finals much less win a Championship.

ZippyTheChimp
May 17th, 2012, 08:41 PM
Michael Jordan didn't have to elevate Pippen or Rodman; they were great players in their own right. Rodman in particular was one of the best rebounding power forwards I've ever seen.

So who's comparable with them on the Knicks? Who does Anthony elevate?

Mike Woodson put it best in a post elimination interview. He said he wasn't going to make excuses, but with no training camp and a compressed season, players in and out of the lineup with injuries, a starting point guard that arrived in mid season while Anthony was injured, only to have him go down - the team needs to play a normal season together from the start.

As for LaBron James, although we like to hate him, he's been playing this year more like the force he was in Cleveland. I thought he restricted himself somewhat last year.

His stats for the last year at Cleveland and his two at Miami are about the same. His assist per game average was higher in Cleveland, so go figure.

eddhead
May 18th, 2012, 12:05 PM
Michael Jordan didn't have to elevate Pippen or Rodman; they were great players in their own right. Rodman in particular was one of the best rebounding power forwards I've ever seen.

So who's comparable with them on the Knicks? Who does Anthony elevate?

Let's start with Stoudemire who averges over 20 ppg throughtout his career and is now in danger of being crowded out. And IMO it isn't as much by Chandler as some have suggested, but by Anthony. He shoots 25-30 shots a game (when he shoots less he mopes). That is just not going to work in terms of providing offesive flow, especially when you hit less than 40% of your shots.

And by the way, it wasn't just Pippen who Jordan elevated. It was Steve Kerr, Robert Horey and a cast of role players.


As for LaBron James, although we like to hate him, he's been playing this year more like the force he was in Cleveland. I thought he restricted himself somewhat last year.

His stats for the last year at Cleveland and his two at Miami are about the same. His assist per game average was higher in Cleveland, so go figure.

James is the best player in the league but not necessarily the best scorer. He is willing to share the ball with Wade and Bosh. In fact all three have made sacrafices to their individual games for the sake of the collective good. I just don't see Anthony doing that. Maybe I am wrong and I hope I am, but he has a track record of not sharing the ball and forcing shots. We need to see more ball movement on offense and a willingness to create space and allow the open man, whoever it it, to take the shot.

ZippyTheChimp
May 18th, 2012, 01:45 PM
Stoudemire is not the answer. He wasn't playing up to career standards even with Anthony injured and out of the lineup. His back now appears to be a chronic condition.

Comparisons between Anthony and Jordan or James are unfair. Anthony is neither of them. And unfair to Scottie Pippin to say that Jordan elevated him, or Rodman who came to the Bulls as an elite player. And James came to a team that already won a championship.

If you put Anthony on one of the elite teams and they failed, his playoff stats might have some relevance, but a lot of MeloBall is perception.

Anthony shot attempts (and 3p) 2010-11, 2011-12: 19.9 (4.6); 18.6 (3.7)
James over the last two seasons: 18.8 (3.5); 18.9 (2.4)

anyway, I think the Knicks biggest problems that they have to address next year are:

1. Defense, especially at the perimeter.
2. Turnovers.

eddhead
May 18th, 2012, 03:49 PM
When Stoudemire is healthy, he is a force. He proved that last year before the Knicks obtained Melo, and he has proven it thoughout his career. It is anybody's guess as to weather or not he will stay healthy though.

The point I was trying to make about Pippen is that Jordan was willing to share the ball with him. James/Wade/Bosh also share the ball. In contrast, when the ball comes to Anthony it rarely comes back. And that is the case even when Stoudemire is healthy. He has forced up some pretty horrible shots rather than pass the ball to someone else. And the rest of the team anticipates that the ball is not coming out so they stand around and watch him. It is boring, uncreative and stagnant.

And it is going to be worse when Lin (or another real point guard) come back. Anthony wants to run the offense. He will not take well to having someone else do it. Goodbye pick and rolls.

As to the Anthony / James comparisons, this year Melo shot 43% from the field. James shot 53%. That is huge. James shoots the same or more because he is better at creating. He does not force his shot the way Anthony does.

Interesting article on Anthony's offesive efficiency here: http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/05/14/don%E2%80%99t-be-deceived-by-carmelo-anthony%E2%80%99s-scoring-totals/

The bottom line is they need to find a way to convince Anthony to be a part of the offense, as opposed to being the whole offense.

ZippyTheChimp
May 18th, 2012, 07:21 PM
So what's that article saying - that James is better than Anthony? I already said that.

Did it also mention that the Heat are much better than the Knicks?

LeBron James shot 50% from the field only once during his time with Cleveland. I think the team around you is a major influence on your personal stats, as is the quality of the defense your up against. Look at the choices James had, and compare that to Anthony's.

JR smith had decent looks, put he disappeared. In three games he was a combined 2-16 from the arc. Stoudemire took himself out of the picture by losing a fight with a glass door. Baron Davis was playing on fumes. Landry Fields just sucks.

eddhead
May 19th, 2012, 01:12 PM
JR Smith is Anthony with less talent. He needs to go. Agree with you about Fields who also needs to go. I agree with you about Baron Davis too. I am not making excuses for Stoudemire, but when he was healthy and playing, he still was not seeing ball because Anthony wasn't giving it up. He kept setting picks, rolling to the hoop, and getting ignored. I think the lack of shots is what frustrated him and caused him to punch out the fire extinguisher. There is no way Stoudemire should be shooting 6/10 on nights when Anthony shoots 12/30.

ramvid01
May 21st, 2012, 03:30 AM
I think Landry shouldn't have changed his jump shot mechanics. He went from having an arc to line driving the ball. Even his FT % went down because of it.

As for the Knicks I think Carmelo has to become a better facilitator. At 3 APG he is not cutting it. It needs to be closer to 5.

LeBron on the other hand shot better this year not because he was creating more(his assists were down this year) but because he cut down the amount of 3s he took, which is a major weakness in his game.

eddhead
July 18th, 2012, 06:40 PM
I am pissed about Lin.

ZippyTheChimp
July 18th, 2012, 06:55 PM
Seems like he set up a poison pill.

eddhead
July 18th, 2012, 08:07 PM
That is what the Knicks would have you believe, but the fact is they could have signed him for $20MM over 4 years weeks ago but elected not to opting instead to tell him to find a market for himself so they could better price his services. Than when he did just that, and they got pissed about it, elected not to match and began a campaign of bad-mouthing him to the press.

This is the worst run franchise in all of sports (despite how much money they make). Dolan is a deadbeat.

ZippyTheChimp
July 18th, 2012, 09:09 PM
^
That's not quite the way I heard it.

The Knicks chose to let the market decide the worth of a player with 25 games of experience in a year with no training camp and a compressed schedule. It is interesting that no other team made an offer to Lin. Lin secured a deal with the Houston Rockets, and it was reported that the Knicks would match the offer.

I think the Knicks mistake was letting it out that they were going to match the offer, particularly Mike Woodson, who was vocal about it.

It was reported that Lin and his agent renegotiated the four-year deal ($28 million, no guaranteed fourth year) to a back-ended three-year deal ($25 million, $14.8 the 3rd year). Either contract is more than fair for a point-guard with 25 games of NBA experience.

If Lin wanted to stay with the Knicks, all he had to do was present the original offer sheet to GM Grunwald. Instead, the new deal is structured to make it very expensive for the Knicks to match it. The $40 million (or whatever amount) luxury tax the Knicks would have had to pay wasn't money going to Lin; it was an NBA penalty.

So what does that tell you if you're an owner negotiating with a player? To me it's clear that Lin doesn't want to play for the Knicks.

Lin had every right to do this, but telling the media that he preferred to play for the Knicks is complete bullshit. $28 million is a lot of money for a rookie.

TREPYE
July 19th, 2012, 01:42 AM
Since when are the Knicks so fiscally conscious? Lin made the Knicks a boatload of $$ last season, he like every other free agent player has EVERY right to make the most of his career; the extra in luxury tax would have been covered by Lin's T-shirt sales alone. Fact is that they got outhustled by a small market team by utilizing their idiot owner make an emotional decision.

Jimy Dolan like that other idiot Jeffrey-Boy Wilpon both born in third base thanks to their Papas go along their lives thinking they got the triple figured out, making crap of everything they get their hands on with their misconceptions of how things really work.

eddhead
July 19th, 2012, 10:59 AM
^^ what he said.

And by the way had the knicks offerred 4/20MM on 7/1, they probably would have had him.

ZippyTheChimp
July 19th, 2012, 11:41 AM
The Knicks may have made a mistake by not initially offering a contract.

So they allowed Lin to test the free-agent market and find his worth. When Lin did that, the Knicks stated they would match the offer.

So what does Lin do? He has Houston rework the contract to make it difficult for the Knicks to match it.

I was wrong about the terms of the original offer. It was better. The 4th year was not guaranteed, but the reported amount was over three years, with a team option for a fourth. The salary breakdown:

Year 1: $10 million
Year 2: $10 million
Year 3: $9 million
Year 4: $9 million team option

The 2nd offer:

Year 1: $5 million
Year 2: $5.2 million
Year 3: $14.9 million

So what's the difference between the two if you're Jeremy Lin?

What's the difference between the two if you're the Knicks?

What conclusion can be drawn?

eddhead
July 19th, 2012, 12:40 PM
^^ That Houston is smart and the Knicks are dumb.

First, I think you have overstated the first two years of the original offer. I do not have the figures in front of me, but the 3 year value of the contract was $19.5MM with a club option for a fourth year. I think it was something like 5.2MM / 5.2MM / and 9MM. This represents a $5MM difference in what was finally agreed to, hardly chump change.

Secondly, I do not think Lin had Houston re-work the deal, rather, Houston did that on their own, understanding the Arenas rule, and how much it would cost the Knicks in penalties. The Knicks were outmanuvered by Houston, not be Lin. Don't believe everything you hear from the Knicks.

As far as the original offer is concerned, it is true that Lin signed it, but Houston never sent if over to the Knicks (i don't think this is within Lin's discretion to do so), so the point it moot. Again, Houston out-manuvered the Knicks. And now the Knicks are on a campaign to sully Lin's reputation. This is beneath contempt, even for Dolan.

And Carmelo Anthony calling ANYBODY's contract ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. Anthony is the most over-paid, and over-hyped player in the league.

ZippyTheChimp
July 19th, 2012, 02:26 PM
The obvious conclusion is that Lin didn't want to play for the Knicks.

Accepting for the moment that it was financially practical for the Knicks to pay a rookie, with no major NCAA or NBA experience except 25 games as a starting point guard, a contract amount that according to Business Week:
But how much, exactly, will it cost the Knicks to keep Lin? And is that cost really astronomical enough to let Lin walk only a few months after he exploded into an international phenomenon in NYC?

The answer largely depends on what other roster moves the Knicks make in the coming years. But we estimate that NY's luxury tax penalty for 2014-15, with Lin, would be at least $17.5 million and at most $68 million, with the likely number ~$35.5 million. Without him, it would be between $0 to $20.5 million, with the likely number ~$4.2 million.

So signing Lin would cost the Knicks between $17.5 million and $48.5 million just in luxury tax penalties, with ~$31.3 million being the most likely number. If you add Lin's $25.1 million contract to that luxury rate number, it will cost the Knicks between $42.6 million and $73.6 million to re-sign Lin, with $54.6 million being the most likely estimate.http://www.businessinsider.com/knicks-jeremy-lin-luxury-tax-penalty-could-hit-68-million-2012-7

We could rationalize that these numbers are chump-change for the Knicks (not my view, since this sort of irresponsibility is what got the Knicks in trouble); but even though an owner such as George Steinbrenner tossed around these sums, he never tried to sign someone who didn't want to be a Yankee.

It's unknown at this point how much upside Lin has, but he's not an established NBA all-star, and not the second coming of Chris Paul. In a recent interview, Larry Brown stated that at this point, he considers Lin a good backup point-guard, but not worth $14.8 million, and he thought the Knicks made the right decision.

Balancing Lin's contract with the value of a social phenomenon works a lot better with the Rockets than the Knicks. The Knicks don't need to boost fan involvement. They are #2 in franchise valuation (by Forbes), behind the Lakers. Even during this dreadful decade, their attendance has always been at or near 100%. The Rockets have not recovered from the retirement of Yao, haven't made the playoffs for three years, and their attendance has dropped to 85%.

And social phenomena wear off quickly in New York unless you win. Remember Joba Rules?

If you look at the whole thing without emotion, Lin is a better fit in Houston, for both himself and the Rockets. He gets to be #1, without too much pressure; and the Rockets don't have to worry about salary caps and luxury tax penalties.

eddhead
July 19th, 2012, 03:05 PM
I don't think it is at all logical to conclude that Lin did not want to stay with the Knicks. It was Houston that structured the contract in a manner which discouraged the Knicks from matching, not Lin. It does not seem that the first offer ever made its way to Knicks managment. That wasn't Lin's fault .. again Houston just out manuvered them. Further, Lin himself has indicated he would have rather stayed in NY. What is the upside of him saying so if he didn't mean it? How does it benefit him to go to another team while publically stating his preference for the Knicks?

The fact that the Knicks are tne #2 team in terms of valuation in the NBA is the exact reason Lin is worth more to them than to other teams. They need to keep the fan base energized and enthused. It is the Yankees' syndrome. Just as is the case with the Yanks, certain players are worth more to the Knicks than they are to other teams. Moreover, MSG signed a major cable contract last year at very favorable rates only AFTER Linsanity hit. That contract made quite a differene to MSG's bottom line and stock price. Lin was a very valuable asset to MSG, and would have helped them open up the Taiwanese and Chinese markets which would have been huge.

And for every Larry Brown who thinks Lin is a second stringer, there are 2 or 3 Kobe Bryants and Magic Johnsons who beleive he will be a legitimate star in this league. Only time will tell, but I like his chances.

ZippyTheChimp
July 19th, 2012, 04:02 PM
I'm not going to debate the relative extra-basketball value of Lin to the Knicks relative to the Rockets. It's just obvious that the Knicks, who've maintained their fan base and valuation during the darkest years of the franchise don't need a media circus. They need to win.

Citing the Yankees just furthers my point. The Yankees have signed many nice, popular, players to big contracts - who were booed and blamed when the team lost. That's the way it is in New York.

You assume that Lin is a can't miss, but if he's not, the big contract becomes an albatross. See AJ Burnett. And the argument that the value the Yankees place on their players is the same as what should be that between the Knicks and Lin doesn't hold water. The Yankees set value by performance, not popularity. There's no Yankee - excepting Jeter and Rivera - who's more popular than Swisher, but he's the one at risk of not getting renewed. The Yankees didn't blink in not renewing Matsui.

I've read in multiple sources that Lin (assume with his agent) met with the Houston Rockets in Las Vegas after the first and before the second offer. Is this false?

As to why Lin stated he preferred to remain in NY, who knows. But he said it after his name was on the Houston contract. Do you assume that Lin was a 100% passive party in this issue, letting events unfold ? Or that he's incapable of spin?

Maybe he was just sticking it to the Knicks. His subsequent statements and tweets didn't indicate any disappointment:
But my main goal in free agency was to go to a team that had plans for me and wanted me. I wanted to have fun playing basketball . . . Now I'm definitely relieved

eddhead
July 19th, 2012, 04:31 PM
Signing Jeter to an $18MM per year contract two years ago at that stage in his career was a decison based on prior year performance? Or his potential to become an $18MM player in the comng years? He would have gotten that deal from some other team and it was not done on the baisis of popularity? Really?

I have no doubt that Lin's value to the Knicks was higher than what his performance on the court would dictate, but I also feel he will be a high performer in the coming years. He is 23 years old, for all intents and purposes a rookie. How many 23 year-olds in the NBA put up the type of numbers that he did even over a 26 game stretch. And we have no evidence whatsoever that Lin influenced the second offer sheet. This was a slick manuver by the Rockets and a dumb one by the knicks who should have signed him early on when they had the chance.

ZippyTheChimp
July 19th, 2012, 07:09 PM
Are you comparing Jeter (16 years, 5 WS at his contract offer) with Lin (2 months, no playoff games)? If you want to compare Lin with a Yankee, Joba Chamberlain is the perfect example.

Comes up in the last two months of the 2007 season. Twenty two years old. Yankees haven't won a WS in seven years. Blazing fastball, sharp breaking ball. No earned runs in first twelve games. Appears in 20 games, allows one earned run. T-shirts appear.

What if conditions allowed Chamberlain to go free agency, and he got a $28 million offer from another team. If the Yankees had matched it, would he still be on the team, or would the Yankees have just let it run out and eventually cut him loose? Would they have been inclined to go out in 2009 and sign CC, TX, and AJ?

I never said that Lin had no value as a point guard; the Knicks thought he was worth $28 million. Not bad for a 2 month player. They just didn't think he was worth $50 million.

While there is no evidenced of what Lin said or did, he did meet with the Houston GM. What do you think they talked about?

What Lin and Houston did may be legal, but it appears they broke an unwritten rule about restricted free agency offers. A team makes an offer for another team's player, and waits three days for a response. That's the way it was always done until Lin. It may have motivated Dolan to take it personally; but even if that was the case, all you could say is that Dolan made the right decision for the wrong reason.

ZippyTheChimp
July 19th, 2012, 09:20 PM
Lin made the Knicks a boatload of $$ last season, he like every other free agent player has EVERY right to make the most of his career; the extra in luxury tax would have been covered by Lin's T-shirt sales alone.Lin certainly provided revenue, but the Knicks didn't get a boatload.

As set by the NBA revenue sharing agreement, the sale of Lin T-shirts, along with the worldwide sale of all player merchandise, goes into a common fund, and is equally divided among all franchises. The same is true for TV revenue from markets like the Pacific Rim.

TREPYE
July 19th, 2012, 09:31 PM
but even though an owner such as George Steinbrenner tossed around these sums, he never tried to sign someone who didn't want to be a Yankee.

I really do not wanna go off topic but this is so categorically untrue via Gregg Maddux and Randy Johnson that I had to bring it up.


It may have motivated Dolan to take it personally; but even if that was the case, all you could say is that Dolan made the right decision for the wrong reason.

Its this same decisions making process that led us to all of those horrid years with Isiah Thomas (and selectively fiscally acceptable luxury taxes). Lin had a vision for the court that not many players had and I could only imagine how much Jason Kidd's mentoring would have made him even better....ugh! Fact is that James Dolan is an imbecile, and we Knick fans suffer again at the hands of his stupididty. He makes emotional decisions at the wrong time his instinct for this things is deplorable.

ZippyTheChimp
July 19th, 2012, 09:49 PM
^
Your attitude toward this affair is too emotional, and it's ironic that you refer to Dolan's emotional and erratic past fiscal decisions as justification that he should continue to follow the same course of action.

Financially, it was the right decision (http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012/07/17/analysts-to-knicks-dump-jeremy-lin/).

I'm not sure what you mean about Maddux and Johnson, but I thought my best Yankee-Knick analogy was Joba Chamberlain.

ZippyTheChimp
July 20th, 2012, 08:57 AM
Secondly, I do not think Lin had Houston re-work the deal, rather, Houston did that on their own, understanding the Arenas rule, and how much it would cost the Knicks in penalties. The Knicks were outmanuvered by Houston, not be Lin. Don't believe everything you hear from the Knicks.It just hit me why you might think Lin and his agent had nothing to do with this.

It wasn't a trade, where the two teams work it out, and the player has no say in it (unless there are conditions in the player's contract). It was free-agency, but with a "restriction."

From the NBA collective bargaining agreement:
restricted free agency:

There are two types of free agency: unrestricted and restricted. An unrestricted free agent is free to sign with any other team, and there's nothing the player's original team can do to prevent it. Restricted free agency gives the player's original team the right to keep the player by matching a contract the player signs with another team. This is called the "right of first refusal."

...

In order to make their free agent a restricted free agent, a team must submit a qualifying offer to the player by June 30. The qualifying offer is a standing offer for a one-year guaranteed contract, which becomes a regular contact if the player decides to sign it. This ensures that the team does not gain the right of first refusal without offering a contract themselves.

...

When a restricted free agent wants to sign with another team, the player and team sign an offer sheet, the principal terms of which the original team is given three days to match. The offer sheet must be for at least two seasons (not including option years). If the player's prior team also submitted a maximum qualifying offer, then the offer sheet must be for at least three seasons (not including option years). If the player's original team exercises its right of first refusal within three days, the player is then under contract to his original team, at the principal terms of the offer sheet. If the player's original team does not exercise its right of first refusal within three days (or provides written notice that it is declining its right of first refusal), the offer sheet becomes an official contract with the new team.

The principal terms of an offer sheet consist of the following. Any other terms of an offer are not considered to be principal terms, and the player's original team is not required to match:

The number of years
The base salary
The amount of any signing bonus or deferred compensation, including the payment schedule
Certain bonuses -- those considered to be "likely" for both teams (see question number 72), and those based on generally recognized league honors
Any allowable amendments such as guarantees, Early Termination Options, and trade bonuses.

When Houston back-ended the payment scheduled, they changed the offer sheet. Lin had to agree to it before it could be presented to the Knicks.

eddhead
July 20th, 2012, 10:28 AM
To be clear, I am NOT comparing Lin to Jeter. I am merely pointing out that the Yankees do make payroll decisions on the basis of something other than performance from time-to-time. Signing Jeter to an 18MM contract at this point in his career is one such example. It was the right thing to do, and smart from a business sense, but it represents an example of where a player had more value to the Yankees than to any other team in baseball, and is an instance where recent performance and potential alone did not warrant the pay. Jeter is having a good year, but let be honest, he is not an $18MM player at this point in his career.


I realize the that Lin was a restricted free agent and that he had to sign the offer sheet for it to be valid, but what choice did he have? The Knicks told him to find a market for his services, and the Rockets were the only offer out there. He did what he had to do, not because he preferred the Rockets, but because it was the only offer out there.

The Knicks played this typically stupidly from the beginning. Instead of signing him early on, they tried to discourage other teams from bidding by suggesting they would match any offer. It is like slow-playing a hold'em hand. This is one of the most inept franchises in all of sports.

ZippyTheChimp
July 20th, 2012, 11:09 AM
I realize the that Lin was a restricted free agent and that he had to sign the offer sheet for it to be valid, but what choice did he have? The Knicks told him to find a market for his services, and the Rockets were the only offer out there.Lin could have refused to sign the amended offer-sheet. I assume that once Lin and the Rockets GM sign the paper, it becomes a valid document that has to be presented to the Knicks. If either party wants to amend the document, there should be mutual agreement. If not, then the entire process is a farce.

So by Lin signing the amended offer sheet, I can see only two reasons:
1. Lin didn't want to play for the Knicks, and signed a poison-pill.
2. The other possibility puts Lin in a bad light - that he was squeezing the Knicks for more money, and overplayed his hand.

I see nothing wrong with this; it's business hardball. But if you accept it, to be fair you should accept that the Knicks made an equally hardball business decision.

If I was Dolan and wanted to be vindictive, and - as has been suggested - I can throw around $50 million as chump change, I match the offer. I pay the tax to the NBA, and Lin gets the same thing he would have gotten from Houston. Then I tell the coach that Lin rides the bench, and there's nothing he could do about it.

eddhead
July 20th, 2012, 06:18 PM
If Lin had refused to sign the amended offer sheet, and the Rockets never submitted the first offer sheet to the Knicks (which they did not do) Lin is basically sitting there without an offer.

As to Dolan paying Lin than sitting him, how do you think that would go over with the faithful?

ZippyTheChimp
July 21st, 2012, 08:24 AM
If there was a first offer sheet, why wouldn't Lin sign it? It was a de-facto contract. The only difference is which team is going to pay for it.

You said not to believe everything the Knicks say, but the Knicks role is reactive. It doesn't matter what they say. The Rockets and Lin are the active parties in the negotiation, yet you believe everything they say.

After 35 games, is Lin worth Rondo money after four years?

eddhead
July 21st, 2012, 11:29 AM
If there was a first offer sheet, why wouldn't Lin sign it? It was a de-facto contract. The only difference is which team is going to pay for it.

My understanding is that Lin did sign the first sheet, and the Rockets did not send it over to the Knicks to match. It is not a contract until it is presented.


L

ZippyTheChimp
July 21st, 2012, 12:58 PM
My understanding is that Lin did sign the first sheet, and the Rockets did not send it over to the Knicks to match. It is not a contract until it is presented.LYou can check it, but I don't think that's correct.

Once the two parties sign an agreement, they are bound to it, contingent only on the Knicks getting an opportunity for first refusal. If the Knicks accept the offer sheet, then they are bound to the agreement negotiated by the Rockets and Lin.

Put another way, once Lin signs the document, he's getting the money, either from the Rockets or the Knicks. He has a contract. What's not determined is whether the Knicks or the Rockets have a contract.

From NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/blazers/news/Salary_Cap_101-147720-41.html):
An offer sheet is at least a two-year contract offer to a restricted free agent.

There's no indication that Lin wasn't going to test the free-agent market, and letting the process determine market value is a standard practice. No matter what the Knicks did, events may have unfolded the same way. If Lin got no offers, do you think the Knicks would have cut him loose? So his market value was determined; I'm sure the Knicks would have offered him a representative contract, just one that wasn't backloaded.

Ironically, if you followed the lockout and CBA talks, this is exactly one of the things that the NBA wanted - to make it easier for players to leave rich teams.

eddhead
July 22nd, 2012, 01:23 PM
According to this article : http://blog.chron.com/ultimaterockets/2012/07/anatomy-of-a-deal-how-the-rockets-landed-jeremy-lin/ The Rockets unilaterally raised the initial terms of the offering sheet after the first one was agreed to and before it was presented to the Knicks. It is not clear that Lin signed or did not sign the original offer sheet. It looks like Lin agreed to the initial terms, but did not sign the sheet, and while waiting for it to be drawn up, the Rockets unilaterally sweetened the deal. If this is true, the first 'offer' was never available for Lin to sign off on.

Irrespective however it IS clear that Lin did not go back and ask them to sweeten the deal but rather that the Rockets did it on their own after losing their own PG to free agency :



Alexander weighs in

“After we came to a rough agreement on that deal (with Lin), Goran (leaving) became certain,” Morey said. “We were all concerned about not having a point guard. It was Mr. (Leslie) Alexander’s idea to get more aggressive.”

Here is the chronology as I understand it:

1. Rather than sign Lin before the 7/1 deadline, the Knicks tell Lin to find a market so they can price out his services
2. Rockets and Lin agree to a 4 year offer for $28MM with the 4th year ($9.3MM) at the club's option
3. Rockets lose their 2011-2012 starting point guard
4. Knicks tell the market they will match ANY offer
5. In consideration of 3 and 4, Rockets unilaterally up the ante, hoping to put pressure on the Knicks to back down
6. Lin signs the offer sheet
7. Knicks decline to match.

Knicks mistakes?
1. They probably could have had Lin at $20MM for 4 yrs prior to 7/1 but got greedy and told him to test the market, hoping there would be no takers and they could get him on the cheap.
2. They told the market they would match any offer even AFTER the Rockets lost their starting point guard, not anticipating the Rockets would rebound with a poison pill contract.

How could they not figure out that the Rockets would respond the way they did? They handled this so incompetently. They were duped by the Rockets and its their own fault. Than, after they refuse to sign the offer sheet, they launch a campaign to denigrate Lin's image in the press. It was downright despicable.

ZippyTheChimp
July 22nd, 2012, 05:46 PM
1. They probably could have had Lin at $20MM for 4 yrs prior to 7/1 but got greedy and told him to test the market, hoping there would be no takers and they could get him on the cheap.Do you know for a fact that Lin and his agents requested an offer from the Knicks? Testing the market is common practice with an unknown.

Since you believe Lin when he said he preferred to play for the Knicks, let's assume this is true. Here's how Lin stays a Knick.

Lin tells the Rockets he prefers to play for the Knicks, but he's not sure the Knicks want him. The amended offer doesn't test which team wants him, because of the penalty that effectively doubles the cost. He tells the Rockets to make their best offer, but not backloaded. If they refuse, he won't sign it.

If that transpired, do you think the Knicks would refuse to give Lin a comparable contract?

In your posts, you seem to make Lin and his agent passive bystanders. They're negotiating a contract.

If you think that Lin, after signing a contract with Houston, honestly stated that he preferred the Knicks, then Lin must be the biggest idiot out of Harvard. I don't think so. I seems calculated and convenient.

And all this turmoil for a point guard with limited defense, who broke down after 25 games as a starter. It's not as if the Knicks let a top five pick get away.

eddhead
July 22nd, 2012, 06:28 PM
I don't have a lot of time right now, but I will say that you seem to think it is the Rockets that are the passive party in this process. I don't think Rockets would accept Lin's demand to not backload the contract, and I don't think Lin had leverage with the Rockets to force them to do so. The article I attached clearly indicates that the Rockets took it upon themselves to backload the contract hoping the Knicks wouldn't match it. The first offer which was agreed upon by Lin was not backloaded but never signed off on or at least presented to the Knicks. The amended offer was all Lin had to work with.

The Knicks got played but the Rockets, pure and simple.

TREPYE
July 22nd, 2012, 07:40 PM
The Knicks got played but {by} the Rockets, pure and simple.


Yeah, I dont get what is so hard to understand, Zippy? Lin sourght the most $$ like any other player would (dont see anything wrong with this), but the Rockets figured out a way to do this by cohersing the Knicks owner to make an emotional decision.

ZippyTheChimp
July 22nd, 2012, 07:43 PM
I don't see how I'm making the Rockets the passive party. The Rockets had to meet with Lin. Lin had to sign the offer before the Rockets could present it to the Knicks. Did Lin and his agent not understand the collective bargaining agreement, and what that third year meant?

You say Lin had no leverage, but you mentioned earlier that the Rockets had lost their starting point-guard.

You say Lin had no bargaining power, but he could have just said I'm not signing. If you think that leaves him without anything else to work with, then you must think the Knicks had no intention of signing him at any price. If that's the case, then the Knicks weren't so stupid after all. They forced the Rockets to increase the offer by $6 million. And while there is no penalty for the Rockets, they have a point-guard with a $14.9 million salary in his third year. If things don't work out, it won't be so easy to move him.

But I don't really believe any of that.

What I do believe is that Lin didn't want to play for Woodson. Didn't see himself having the major role after D'Antoni left. So he found himself a place where he can be the top dog. Maybe.

As I already said, nothing wrong with that. But it seems that people are more upset by the exit of Linsanity, rather than the exit of a point guard.

ZippyTheChimp
July 22nd, 2012, 07:48 PM
Yeah, I dont get what is so hard to understand, Zippy?OK, so you think (which I don't think Eddhead does) that declining to pay $50 million for Lin is an emotional decision by the Knicks.

Explain this in an unemotional way.

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 10:45 AM
^^ That is a falacious arguement. The Knicks were not paying $50MM for Lin in the third year, they were paying a Luxury tax based on combined salaries of the entire Knick payroll including Stoudemire, Anthony, Chandler, and Lin. It is not fair to lay a $50MM tag on Lin, when the other three carry huge prices of their own.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 11:21 AM
It's only a fallacious argument if - as you seem to be implying - I'm blaming Lin for the luxury tax.

I'm not blaming Lin for anything.

But the reality was, when that paper was presented to Lin and his agent, that it would cost the Knicks $50 million to sign him. So the question remains: How was turning down the offer an emotional decision by the Knicks?

The Knicks had just signed Novak to a four year $15 million contract to come off the bench and can threes. They would have given Lin a good contract if he turned down the offer sheet. He had the option.

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 11:29 AM
We will never know what kind of contract the Knicks would have given Lin had he turned down the offer and neither does Lin know. That is the point. Turning down the offer sheet would have meant surrendering all leverage to the Knicks. They could havd signed him for anything at that point. There are a number of accounts in the press attesting to the fact that the Knicks told Lin to test the market before offerring him a contract. The fact that they never did offer him one prior to 7/1 is indication that they wanted him to create his own market. They did not ask the same of Novack. Apples and oranges.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 11:45 AM
It's not apples and oranges. The Novak contract attests to the fact that the Knicks had not suddenly gotten cheap.

But your comparing that Novak wasn't asked to test the market while Lin was is apples and oranges.

Novak has been in the NBA for several years. He is a known commodity, a three-point specialist since Marquette.

Lin is a relatively unknown commodity; and as I said many posts ago, it's not unusual for a team to let such players set their market.

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 01:29 PM
Prior to last season, Novak had been with 5 teams in 5 years. Most of the teams he played on previously either cut him or traded him in very minor deals. For instance, the Rockets traded him for an exchange in 2nd round picks. Dallas kept him for all of 7 games before releasing him, and San Antonio kept him for 23 before letting him go. His ppg totals from 2006 are as follows: 1.9, 3.9, 2.1, 1.6, 4.0, and 8.8. Strictly a journey man before last year, and he was stomped on my the Heat in the playoffs. He is hardly that much more of a known commodity than Lin.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 01:53 PM
You list Novak's rap-sheet, and then state he's not that hardly more known than Lin?

Known commodity doesn't mean he's better or worse, just that he has a body of work that can be more easily evaluated.

That he got a good contract despite being a journeyman just goes to my point - the Knicks hadn't suddenly become cheap.

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 02:08 PM
He is NOT a known commodity because the body of his work to last year is not consistent with last year's performance, or with how he performed in playoffs. I happen to think he is a good player, but that is a leap of faith on my part - he could very well revert to his prior years' peformance just as is the case with Lin. In that regard, we do not really know how to evaluate him. Will he be the 2006 -2011 Novak or the 2011/12 Novak? With both players, we have last year to go on but nothing else. To that degree, they are both unknown or known, based on how much you believe they will duplicate what they did last year.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 02:50 PM
You're missing the point.

Whether or not Novak is a good player, whether or not his career has been consistent, whether or not last year was an outlier, how he has performed on different teams - ALL OF IT is part of what GMs know about him. We know he can shoot. We know his defense is limited. We know he doesn't move well without the ball. We know he isn't a starter. We know he's a roll player. We know what he did in college.

What do we know about Lin?

Even without the luxury tax, the contract amount offered Lin is comparable to a starting point guard in the NBA. You're considering something more valuable than a shooting specialist off the bench.

So unless you're saying that both of these players should have been offered $15 million contacts, your argument makes no sense. The Knicks were comfortable in what they were going to get from Novak, and made an offer. If it doesn't work out, it's not at the same level of your starting point guard being a bust. They wanted to find out what the league thought he was worth.

Do you think the Knicks would have offered Lin substantially more money than was given to Novak?

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 03:03 PM
My point is that GM's have no way of knowing of what Novak did last year was an aberation. True, he has been in the league for 6 years, but there is very little in his body of work. For the most part, he has played between 3-8 minutes per game and scored between 2-4pts. Novak did not get his contract on the basis of what he did frm 2006-2011, he got it on the basis of last year. Ther Knicks were comfortable in evaluating Novak on the basis of what he did last year, and last year alone. they should have been comfortable in doing the same for Lin.

I think Lin would have received more money than Novak; probably $5-7MM with a larger kicker in the last year.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 03:20 PM
Ther Knicks were comfortable in evaluating Novak on the basis of what he did last year, and last year alone. they should have been comfortable in doing the same for Lin.So you think the situations are comparable, as to a shooting specialist off the bench, who is not going to get much better than last year, and a starting point guard, who really has to get better?


I think Lin would have received more money than Novak; probably $5-7MM with a larger kicker in the last year.So Lin wasn't left with nothing if he refused the Houston offer sheet, right?

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 03:29 PM
So you think the situations are comparable, as to a shooting specialist off the bench, who is not going to get much better than last year, and a starting point guard, who really has to get better?

So Lin wasn't left with nothing if he refused the Houston offer sheet, right?

Does Lin really have to get better to warrant a $6MM contract? In 26 games in which he started, he averaged 18.6ppg, and 9apg. How much better does he need to be to warrant a contract offer from the inumbent team? Nevertheless I think he will get better and would have been willing to take the chance.

But to be clear, I do not think the players are comparable, just their situations in one regard. Both players had breakout years last year. If anythng, there should have been a greater urgency to sign Lin; Novak was more expendable.

As to what he would have gotten we'll never know. What we do know is the Knicks told him to test the market, than walked away muttering disparaging comments about him when he did.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 03:44 PM
Do we have to go back to this again? 26 games is nothing.

At the end of it, he was getting beat up and broke down. The league was starting to figure it out. The Heat made him look like a college rookie.

No matter how you slice it, as a starting point guard, he's an unknown, except maybe on a team like the Rockets, who stink, and have seen their attendance deteriorate. Again as I said, Lin is a better fit for the Rockets - he is guaranteed more minutes and the Rockets get media attention.

My problem is giving Lin a pass on his "I preferred the Knicks" comment. Seems self serving. Not my fault; I wanted to play for the Knicks.

The door was open to him.

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 03:52 PM
How in the world was the door open to him when he never even recevied an offer from them?? What was he supposed to do, disregard the Rocket's offer and take a leap of faith the the Knicks would come up with something good?? A

And speaking of going back to this again, are we really going to suggest that Novak's 2006-2011 performance formed the basis for his contract?? His 3-8 Minutes a game?

And on what basis is he a better fit for the Rockets? Oh yeah, the Rockets don'thave Anthony hogging the ball and slowing the offense down to a stand still.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 04:18 PM
How in the world was the door open to him when he never even recevied an offer from them??Now you're back to that the Knicks would have left him hanging if he turned down the offer sheet? To what purpose? This was the reason that I brought Novak into the discussion - that the Knicks didn't suddenly become cheap. And you brought in this apples and oranges thing.


And speaking of going back to this again, are we really going to suggest that Novak's 2006-2011 performance formed the basis for his contract?? His 3-8 Minutes a game?What is Novak's role on the Knicks? Seems to me it's to come off the bench and provide instant offense from the perimeter. Number of minutes a game isn't the issue. Field goal percentage is. Novak is #5 all time in percentage beyond the arc. 50% during his career at Marquette. We all know he can shoot.


And on what basis is he a better fit for the Rockets?I think I already stated my reasons.


Oh yeah, the Rockets don'thave Anthony hogging the ball and slowing the offense down to a stand still.An emotional response, but if you will, another reason why Lin's "I preferred the Knicks" was self serving.

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 04:33 PM
The point is we don't know what the Knicks would have done, because they didn't do anything. How could we expect Lin to turn down the Rockets offer and leave it to faith that the Kincks would have offered him a lucrative contract? There is no way he could know that, and it would have been irresponsible for him to asssume they would

My assessment of Anthony is not emotional, it is based on what I saw from him particularly last year. Once he gets the ball it is all over. Everyone else just stands around and watches knowing it is not going to them.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 05:09 PM
We already went over your point. It's implausible that the Knicks would do this to a starting point guard. for all their faults and stupidity, cheapness has never been one of them. Novak is a good benchmark.

Are we assessing Anthony; what does he have to do with Lin's decision?

eddhead
July 23rd, 2012, 05:17 PM
I feel the need to continue to go over my point because it is the only way to answer yours. As to Anthony, nahh, that was a freebee courtesy of your pal eddhead.

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2012, 05:40 PM
Fair enough.

eddhead
October 16th, 2012, 09:50 AM
Jeremy Lin explains the rationale for his move to the Rockets, and his reaction to last year.



OCTOBER 16, 2012, 12:03 AM
Lin Opens Up About His Move to the Rockets


By NATE TAYLOR
GREENBURGH, N.Y. - As the N.B.A. season approaches, Jeremy Lin will be one of the league's most-watched players. Lin, who became an overnight global phenomenon with the Knicks in February, is now with the Houston Rockets, a young team that, in part, will be built around him.


The continuing interest in Lin is reflected in the fact that he is now being featured as the cover story in the November issue of GQ. In the article, by Will Leitch, Lin reflects at some length on the dizzying set of events that quickly took him from the fringes of the N.B.A. to a role as the starting point guard on the Knicks to his jolting departure this past summer when the Knicks declined to match the free-agent money that the Rockets were willing to pay him.


Leitch interviewed Lin in his first return to New York as an ex-Knick.


"The thing about it is, there was no other way to handle the situation," Lin told Leitch. "I didn't get an offer from the Knicks, so I had to go test my market."


When he signed the offer sheet, Lin said in the interview, the Rockets told him they were 80 percent to 95 percent sure the Knicks would match the offer. Lin said he was surprised the Knicks did not keep him, especially after Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler and Coach Mike Woodson had said at a dinner in Los Angeles a week before free agency began that they expected Lin would stay with the Knicks.


"I walked away like, 'This is sweet,' " Lin said. "I was thinking, 'I'm excited.' Before that dinner, I had reservations."


Lin, who played college basketball at Harvard, also said in the interview that if he had never made it into the N.B.A. he would have played basketball overseas for a year and then moved on with his life, but added that he had no specific plan for what he would have done had he retired from basketball..


In the interview, Lin also spoke about the racism he felt he faced while in college and after he turned pro. He said he felt some people did not believe in his abilities because he is of Chinese and Taiwanese descent.


"It's not even close to the only reason, but it was definitely part of the reason," he told the magazine. "I'm going to have to play well for a longer period of time for certain people to believe it, because I'm Asian. And that's just the reality of it."


Lin also said in the interview that he was just as surprised as everyone else in being able to play as well as he did for the Knicks, averaging 14.6 points and 6.2 assists in 35 games.


"Let's just be honest," he said. "I had no idea I could play like that."


He said he also agreed with skeptics who note that he has only started 25 games in his N.B.A. career. "I agree, I totally agree," he said. "I don't know how my next season's going to turn out. The things that I struggled with before last year, I'm going to struggle with next year - there's that learning process."


"I have to get better," he added.


http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/

TREPYE
October 19th, 2012, 03:54 PM
OCTOBER 16, 2012, 12:03 AM
Lin Opens Up About His Move to the Rockets


By NATE TAYLORLin said he was surprised the Knicks did not keep him, especially after Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler and Coach Mike Woodson had said at a dinner in Los Angeles a week before free agency began that they expected Lin would stay with the Knicks.
http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/

Well the bonehead, hypersensitive, overemotional Knicks owner is missing from that list.

eddhead
October 19th, 2012, 06:55 PM
100% agree.

GordonGecko
November 16th, 2012, 12:20 AM
sooooo, how about those KNICKS ! :cool:

ZippyTheChimp
November 16th, 2012, 12:25 AM
Shhhh. They'll hear you.

eddhead
November 16th, 2012, 09:33 AM
It has been a great start mostly due to the terrific defense they have been playing. Also, JR Smith's shot selecton is much better this year, and Anthony is not shooting 12/30 every game. Yet.

It should be interesting to see what happens when Stoudemire comes back. Personally, I like his offensive game when he is healthy but I am concerned about his defense. Also, last year he did not really integrate well into the offense; most games he got about 12 shots off. He really thrives off the pick and roll, and while Woodson has added that dimension to his repitoire, it is not the staple that it was in D'Antoni's offense

Finally, given the age of the team, Woodson has to be carefull with regard to how he spots his older players - and there are several. Too many minutes early on in the season could hurt them down the stretch.

GordonGecko
November 16th, 2012, 10:27 AM
I think the Knicks can't take any chances, they should just trade Amar'e for whatever they can and eat most of his salary. I know they won't, but they should, and when he comes back he'll disrupt the flow

eddhead
November 16th, 2012, 10:33 AM
The other issue is Cap considerations.

If that were to happen, would't the team he was traded to need to take his salary under thier cap? If not than the Knicks would need to, which means they get a $20MM + hit with no player. I agree - they are not likely to do that.

TREPYE
November 27th, 2012, 05:56 PM
Barclays was pretty raucous last night in the first installment of...

http://nyc.3432.voxcdn.com/files/2012/10/NY-Knicks-Brooklyn-Nets-Smithfield1-e1350945537271.jpg

...should be fun form here on forth.

ZippyTheChimp
November 27th, 2012, 06:10 PM
Spike Lee talking to his B&W alter-ego.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqppzdz8g0Q

IrishInNYC
November 28th, 2012, 12:03 PM
It has taken me many years to fully adopt "American" sports and I'm now a die-hard football fan and enjoy watching the Yankees...but for the life of me I do not get basketball (ice hockey even less so).

I saw a highlight the other day where Blake Griffin did a block shot on someone and it was being lauded as an amazing play. Amazing maybe because the guy played some defense?

ZippyTheChimp
November 29th, 2012, 04:15 PM
I don't think I'd call it ordinary. He not only got all ball, but he got possession and made an outlet pass while hitting the deck.

The was one against Hilton Armstrong a few years ago that got posterized.

http://clippers.topbuzz.com/albums/blake-griffin/Blake_Griffin_blocks_Hilton_Armstrong_s_shot.jpg

Bill Russell worthy.

eddhead
November 29th, 2012, 07:05 PM
That was a great play. To appreciate just how great, you need to understand the speed of the game and the sheer athleticism of the players. These are huge men who are fast, strong, nimble and able to stop and start on a dime. Some of them have standing verticle leaping abilities approaching 4 feet, and they come spring loaded.

You lose a lot of that watching it on TV, but in my view, these are some of the greatest athletes in the world.

ZippyTheChimp
December 6th, 2012, 11:54 PM
Knicks @ Heat

Whoa

eddhead
December 7th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Impressive win without Anthony. They got contributions from everyone but Felton played especially well. The D really stepped too.

This team is very deep but they're also very old. I only hope the rancors of a long season doesn't catch up with them.

ZippyTheChimp
December 13th, 2012, 01:53 PM
D'Antoni back at The Garden tonight.

eddhead
December 13th, 2012, 02:18 PM
... and he is under siege with the most pointed criticism coming from Magic and Kobe, both of whom believe D'Antoni's system is not flexible enough to leverage Gasol's skill set. D'Antoni IS stubborn and inflexible, but than again so is Phil Jackson with respect to the triangle offense. Of course Jackson has consistently been sucessfull. D'Antoni - not so much, at least not recently.

How about this; a healthy Stoudemire for Gasol, straight up? While I do like Stoudemire, the fact is each of their games seem more suitable to the other team's style. The only problem is Anthony has flourished at the no. 4; I am not sure the Knicks want to mess with moving him to 3. Of course they are going to have to deal with that issue when Stoudemire returns anyway.

Either way, I am certain it will not happen. Too many concerns about Amare's health, although Gasol's Knees are also kind of creaky.

GordonGecko
December 13th, 2012, 04:27 PM
If Amare fills a niche position off the bench on the second unit, look out this team is going to be unstoppable and you don't want Gasol. But if Woodson insists on starting him then I'd be happy with a bag of basketballs in return

eddhead
December 13th, 2012, 06:11 PM
When he is healthy, I like Amare's game quite a bit. He is very explosive, and has great leaping ability. Throughout his career, he has never been asked to play with his back to the hoop, but I understand he worked with Olajuwon in the offseason on some low post and drop-step moves. I am curious to see if he adopts any of them.

He also seems like a good guy. He is very active in promoting childhood literacy.

You're right about Gasol. He does many things well, including passing out of the low post, but his knees are shot, and he can barely get up and down the floor. Still if both players were healthy, I think it could be a win-win trade, except for the fact that it makes Carmelo a 3. The Knicks have really flourished going small.

eddhead
January 2nd, 2013, 12:53 PM
Remember a couple of years back when the Knicks let David Lee walk in order to free up the power forward spot for Stoudemire, and keep a cap spot open for Anhtony? As much as I like Stoudemire, Lee continues to average 18 + PPG, 11+ RPG, and shoots 53% from the field. And what is interesting about the 53% figire is that he has become an outstanding jump shooter.

So how is that move looking now?

ZippyTheChimp
January 2nd, 2013, 06:14 PM
Overlooks why the Knicks signed Stoudemire.

He gave them the credibility to go after LeBron James and eventually get Anthony.

David Lee was not going to do that.

eddhead
January 2nd, 2013, 06:29 PM
I realize that, and I am not criticizing he Knicks for Lee go. In fact, I was a proponent of doing so at the time, even though it was fairly certain by that point that they were not going to get James. I just loved Stoudemire's game, didn't see room at the no 4. for both, and didn't see Stoudemire at the 3 or 5.

But Lee turned out to be an excellent player.

eddhead
March 4th, 2013, 09:53 AM
For the Knicks to be effective, they need an alternaitive option on offense, it can't all be on Anthony. Offensively, the team was much more effective early in the season when they continued to incorporate elements of D'Antoni's offense, moved the well and found the open man.

At least on paper Anthony had a very stong game last night- I will take 9/19 from the field and 13/14 from the lime from him any time (it is the 13/30 nights that frustrate me). When you dig into the numbers however he did not take a shot over the last 5 minutes or so.

Looking at the roser, with Soudemire taking no more than 7-10 shots a game despite the fact that he seems to hit at least 50% of them, no one else there scares you. They need a more well rounded approach.' I also get the sense that someone put a muzzle on Smith.

I would love to see them return to the type of ball they were playing earlier in the year, with team moving the ball to the open man, and Anthony takng 20 or so high percentage shots a game. I also think they need to do a better job of integrating Stoudemire into the offense. He needs to do more than shoot 5/7.


================================================== ==================================================
James and the Heat Are Always in the Knicks’ WayBy HARVEY ARATON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/columns/harveyaraton/)There are times — and Sunday had to be one of them — when the chilling realization must run through the Knicks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/newyorkknicks/index.html?inline=nyt-org), and all those emotionally tethered to them, that their Eastern Conference fate for another cluster of years was cruelly settled during the summer of 2010, when they thought they were in the game for LeBron James (http://london2012.nytimes.com/athletes/lebron-james?inline=nyt-per).

On the day they were granted a free-agent audience with the self-styled King, a wheelchair-bound Donnie Walsh, their team president at the time, came away with the intuitive clarity that James would never set up shop at Madison Square Garden. He would only visit and make it a habit to break New York’s heart, precisely the way he did in Miami’s 99-93 victory, the Heat (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/miamiheat/index.html?inline=nyt-org)’s 14th straight win.

It is true that fate will occasionally intervene in such cases of inevitability. An injury to Boston’s Bill Russell meant a championship for the St. Louis Hawks in 1958. Michael Jordan took a sabbatical from basketball and created an opening that Patrick Ewing and the Knicks nearly slipped through in 1994.

It’s always possible that a ligament could snap or cartilage might tear. After James fell hard to the court and clutched his left knee Sunday, no doubt there were some among the Garden loyalists who, if only for a devilish moment, were wishing for James to be carted off like Baron Davis in the playoffs last season.

Miami’s Shane Battier had the more honorable feeling, one that bordered on sickening.

“I feel like a parent, watching their receiver go across the middle and get hit,” he said, speaking generally about James’s high-wire athleticism but specifically about his third-quarter spill while he was being fouled after going airborne for a Dwyane Wade fast-break lob and getting nudged by the Knicks’ J. R. Smith.

Battier’s brother played football at Duke but had to quit because of concussions, so he knew of what he spoke.

“I thought, Oh, man, just get up,” Battier said after the Heat gut-checked the Knicks in a 26-16 fourth quarter. Though James later acknowledged that the knee did bother him some for the rest of the game, he got up, put up and suggested that those who wanted to believe the Knicks had the Heat’s number after consecutive 20-point blowouts early in the season should shut up.

“We felt like this was one of our best wins of the season,” he said after accumulating 29 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists and 3 steals.

On top of that, James held Carmelo Anthony not only scoreless but shotless for the final 4 minutes 52 seconds of a tense and tight game. That might be a drought for some overworked N.B.A. statistician to backcheck over the trigger-happy Anthony’s decade in the league.

Not to belabor the issue of the tweak to the knee — during his career, James has shaken off any number of scary-looking entanglements with courtside fans, photographers and less physically endowed opponents — but his effort and effectiveness were exponentially improved almost immediately thereafter.

“He ain’t faking,” said Heat Coach Erik Spoelstra, rushing into a defensive posture at the mere question of James’s recuperative prowess. “He’s not playing to the crowd. He’s a physically attacking player, and when he attacks and gets to the rim, there’s going to be some tumbles.”
Noting that Wade has also long been known for playing with abandon, Spoelstra warned that no one should take such durability for granted. “They’re not superhuman,” he said.

Over in the Knicks’ locker room, Anthony chimed in with the notion that perhaps James is a specimen beyond normal man. “You ever seen him get hurt?” he said. “That man don’t get hurt.”

Anthony, meanwhile, said he took treatment for his knee at halftime with the Knicks ahead by 14, and was also said to have been dinged in the arm and the ribs. For the record, and in sharp contrast to James, it was the second time in a few weeks that Anthony was reportedly wounded during a game and proceeded to shoot miserably or not at all down the stretch.

In this case, drawing James’s complete attention is at least an excuse much of the basketball-watching world can live with, just not the nation of Knicks fans forever wanting to believe Anthony can be that top-tier superstar for a playoff season that is the ultimate measure of an N.B.A. leading man’s physical and mental durability.

It is also exceedingly unfair to compare any player to James’s current standard, on a different combo level athletically and cognitively. We can, however, quibble with the fact that James also plays harder than the likes of Anthony — the most obvious take-away of Sunday’s game.
“His motor is limitless,” Spoelstra said.

When James wasn’t hitting 3-point shots — two straight pulled the Heat even early in the fourth quarter after a long uphill climb — he was setting up Chris Bosh, or rejecting Tyson Chandler at the rim or crushing the last Knicks hope by stepping in front of Anthony to pick off Smith’s unfortunate floater for the game-sealing basket.

Taken out of his offensive game by James, Anthony was practically invisible. And the echoes of the Garden’s standard chant for him during his 24-point first half had long faded.

Anthony as M.V.P.? Absolutely, if we are talking about an Atlantic Division that does not include Miami, and James.

eddhead
March 5th, 2013, 12:48 PM
... and just like that, Anthony gets hurt, and Stoudemire along with Novack step up and fill the void.

IrishInNYC
March 5th, 2013, 12:51 PM
Necessity is the mother.......

GordonGecko
March 5th, 2013, 01:20 PM
There's a fundamental chemistry problem on this team. When Carmelo & Amar'e are both in the lineup together the whole team gets lazy for some reason

eddhead
March 5th, 2013, 02:34 PM
I agree with that. In fact I will take it a bit further. Over the past 20 or so games, the team gets lazy on offense whenever Anthony is in the game, which is almost always. We're back to Iso-Melo.

Early in the season, they did a gret job of moving without the ball and distributing. They combined a lot of D'Antoni's offense with Woodson's and the result was even ball distribution with a focus ut not a monoply on Anthony. We saw Carmello doiing 9/20's 11/21's and scoring 25-28 pts a night consistently while shooting 45%. He also seemed to be getting 4-6 assists a night. We also saw Smith getting 16, Felton getting 14, and Chandler getting 10-12 all on high percentage plays

For some reason now, we are back to where we were last year when Melo was shooting 12/30 consistently instead of putting up 20-22 really good shots. It is not good for the team, and it is not good for Anthony who is really starting to get beat up. They have to find a way to return to what they did early on; get more people involved while still leaning on Anthony as the principle go to guy.

GordonGecko
March 5th, 2013, 03:01 PM
That's got to be on the coach to address

ZippyTheChimp
March 5th, 2013, 06:14 PM
The Knicks lose to a team that just won its 15th straight, and we get a "what's wrong with the Knicks" article. Or what's wrong with Anthony

What's wrong with the Knicks is the same thing that was wrong with the Ewing Knicks. LaBron James = Michael Jordan = roadblock. They still have the 2nd fewest losses in the Eastern Conference, but it doesn't look like it's going to be enough.

I think a big difference in why the Knicks aren't sizzling like they were in the first 20 games is the loss of Rasheed Wallace. It's overlooked because he averaged 14.6 minutes per game. But his numbers (7.2 ppg and 4.2 r) adjusted for 36 minutes are 17.8 and 10.2.

When the Knicks beat the Heat in November, Anthony scored 30 points on 10-28 shooting. On Sunday it was 32 points on 9-19. Go figure. The difference in the two games was bench scoring. In the first game, 7 players scored off the bench; on Sunday, it was 4, and Kidd was one of them (he still played 34 minutes). Novak played 12 minutes, only took 3 shots and didn't score.

Anthony's minutes have gone from 34 to 38 in February, and 42 so far in March. Chandler's numbers in February jumped up to 34.5.

And Kidd has been awful from behind the arc, which leaves fewer open looks for Novak. When a good shooter starts missing from long range, it's his legs. He's tired. In the first 17 games, Kidd was 53% on three pointers. Since Dec 13th, it's 28%. His numbers over the last 13 games: 10-54 (18.5%) and 7-48 from downtown (14.6%). They have to find a way to rest him.

The Knicks troubles ending games are mostly due to the fact that the only presence they have inside is the increasingly overworked Chandler. The Knicks are 20th in defensive FG percentage inside of 8 feet, and 25th within the restricted area. With Wallace gone, a lot is riding on Kenyon Martin and/or Marcus Camby.

eddhead
March 5th, 2013, 06:45 PM
As you've noted, it is not just the Heat game, this team going 4-5 over the past 9 games, has not looked all that solid since since just before the All-Star game. And it is not just their record. Even in games they won, they have been flat offensively and they have not shown the ball movement recently, that they showed earlier in the season. As a result, there are fewer opportunities for their 3 point shooters and more congestion in the middle, while everyone watches Anthony. That is why Chandler is not scoring as he was.

I disagree with the notion that the Knicks do not have a second low post option. Historically Stoudemire has not been a post up player, but his low post game this year is much better than at any time I can remember. The problem is they can't integrate Stoudemire and Anthony into the line-up at the same time. I think it is because Anthony has been very effective at the 4 this year, while Stoudemire is really not a 5 and certainly not a 3. Still, they should be able to play better together than they do.

I agree with your notion regarding defensive presence on the inside however. Strangely, this team has not been that strong defensively all year long, although you are right about Wallace. It sucks to lose him.

The game Sunday aganst the Heat was a recent anomoly for Anthony in that he only took 19 shots. As I posed previously, I will take 9/19 from the field and 13/14 from the line from him anytime. The problem is he shut down completly in the last 5 minutes failing to take even one shot over that period.

I agree the lack of 3 point production is hurting the team but I think it is having a larger inpact on Chandler than on Novack. Forcing teams to respect the 3 especially out of the high pick and roll, opens the block. That is how Chandler scored so many of his points early on.

But Kidd is done.Throughout his career, he has never really been a 'great' shooter, although he certainly had a great run early on this year. With Kidd the issue might be more his back than legs, but really it doesn't matter. He is not the same player he was early on.

They can still salvage the approach if the get Novack going but the way to do that is through ball movement. Run the high pick and roll with Felton and Stoudemire/Chandler, and pass the ball off beyond the arc to Novack. OR better yet, run it with Anthony instead of Felton and let him decide to shoot, pass in, or pass out. The heat do that a lot with LaBron. Anthony is not Labron, but he has excellent ball handling and passing skills to match his shooting skills.

I would love to see them use more of Anthony's talents, not just as a scorer, but also as a passer and decision maker. He has great vision, but we rarely see it. He would make an excellent point forward.

ZippyTheChimp
March 5th, 2013, 08:27 PM
Even in games they won, they have been flat offensively and they have not shown the ball movement recently, that they showed earlier in the season.

....

I agree with your notion regarding defensive presence on the inside however. Strangely, this team has not been that strong defensively all year long, although you are right about Wallace. It sucks to lose him.We're not going to agree on this. You seem to think the problem is offense; that article hardly touches on defense.

I disagree that the Knicks have not been strong defensively all year - the two stories at the start of the season were team defense and low turnovers. If there was an offensive story, it was about Anthony.

The problems they've had, especially against weaker teams, is allowing early score runups. It happened again in the Cleveland game on Monday. Allowed them to put up 34 in the first quarter, 61 for the half. The Knicks won the game in the third quarter, but they only scored 21 points. What they also did was step up the defense and hold Cleveland to 13 points. Kidd had a good day shooting, so Novak had opportunities - he took 7 threes and hit four, three of them in the fourth quarter.

The Knicks didn't win that game on offense.


I disagree with the notion that the Knicks do not have a second low post option. Historically Stoudemire has not been a post up player, but his low post game this year is much better than at any time I can remember. The problem is they can't integrate Stoudemire and Anthony into the line-up at the same time.That's why I said we're not going to agree. You interpreted my statement about Chandler not getting help inside as an offensive problem, even though my next sentence had defensive stats.

Next to last in the league in defensive stops under the basket is a real problem, much more than any offensive inconsistencies, especially since they have a talented center. Stoudemire isn't the answer; he can't play defense.

eddhead
March 6th, 2013, 11:24 AM
I do agree with some of what you wrote. For instance, I did interpret your comments regarding low-post presence and Chandler not betting support to be a defensive issue.

I agree with your notion regarding defensive presence on the inside however. Strangely, this team has not been that strong defensively all year long, although you are right about Wallace. It sucks to lose him.

As you can see, I also agreed with your point on Wallace. And yes, I agree that Stoudemire is not a defensive presence- it is a real problem with his game and may be the reason why he sits at the closing moments of the 4th.

My point about defense was made in comparing this year's team to last year's, and other teams coached previously by Woodson. Last year's Knicks team ranked near the top of the league in most defensive metrics. Even when the Knicks were playing well this year, they were no where near that level defensively. They have had persistent problems guarding the point - quick point guards driving the lane give them fits which makes their inside defensive game seem so much weaker than it might normally be. They has similar problems last year but for some reason, dealt with them better.

The reason I am not as focused on defense, is that even when they played exceptionally well earlier this year, they were at best in the middle of the pack with respect to overall team defensive metrics. Overall, the team is ranked 21st in the league in defense for the entire season. I can't find any stats that show where they were over the first 25 or so games of the year, but my recollection is that they were not too much higher than that.. It wasn't like the dropped from 5th to 21st. Yet they still managed to flourish.

Their defense has slipped and is a factor. But even during the stretch when they plaed extremely well, they were not among the elite teams defensively.

For the most part, I think Anthony has played extremely well this year -- better than I anticipated. Not only has he been a force on offense, he has been surprisingly effective on defense. His defense is not the problem. As I mentioned before, they are getting eaten alive by quick point guards who create opportunities in the low post by driving the lane. This has been a problem all year long. Lin was not the quickest pg in the league, but he did a better job than Felton is doing today. The Knicks were also younger at the back-up positions last year - and quicker. Neither Kidd nor Prigioni has the legs to keep up, and Shumpert is still getting back into shape. If you want to discuss defensive shortcomings this is where I think we should start.

ZippyTheChimp
March 6th, 2013, 03:56 PM
I did interpret your comments regarding low-post presence and Chandler not betting support to be a defensive issue.Then I don't understand how you could disagree with me that "the Knicks don't have a second low-post option. Historically Stoudemire has not been a post up player, but his low post game this year is much better than at any time I can remember." That's offense. I never spoke about offense. I have no problem when Stoudemire has the ball.

If you want to talk metrics, the Knicks have been near the top of the league in offensive efficiency all season. I've watched every game this season. The games where the offense has been the problem were usually games where they just played badly. I discount those games, and try to analyze the team when they are playing well overall, but still lose. It's been the defense...


As you can see, I also agreed with your point on Wallace. And yes, I agree that Stoudemire is not a defensive presence- it is a real problem with his game and may be the reason why he sits at the closing moments of the 4th.This is where the games are being lost. Where you had Wallace and Camby, you now have what, maybe Stoudemire, or maybe not?

To me, that situation is a big deal.


Shumpert is getting back into shape. If you want to discuss defensive shortcomings this is where I think we should start.Theoretically at least, Shumpert gets that done. Stoudemire isn't going to get better. For all the talk about the Anthony-Stoudemire fit, I don't see it as a problem at all - on offense. When Anthony goes to the bench, he takes a lot of production with him; Stoudemire can pick that up coming off the bench.

The bad fit is Chandler-Stoudemire - on defense.

eddhead
March 6th, 2013, 04:33 PM
The Knicks have played 57 games this year. They were 18-4 over the first 22, and are 18 -17 over the last 35. Clearly their quality of play has degraded. Why? You're focused on defense, and while the team has trailed off defensively over the past 35 games, it is worth repeating that they really were not a powerhouse defensive team to begin with over the first 22, or so the metrics would suggest. Considering that, it is clear to me that their offensive performance has dropped over the past 35 games.

I watch the games too. As I mentioned previously, I think Anthony has had a terrific season so far. He has been more selective in his shot taking this year than last, and has done a very good job of distributing the ball to the open man. When he is on his game and focused on shot selection, ball movement, and creating shots for himself as well as others, along with defense, he is a top 3 player surpassed only by James and Durant. When he is taking 30 shots a game and hitting 11 while others stand around and watch, he is talented player not playing up to his full effectiveness. And we seem to be more and more trending in that direction. I worry about that for several reasons. First, the Knick offense stagnates when they over-rely on him. Secondly, while I genterally approve of what seems to be recent focus on taking the ball to the hoop, in so doing, he is clearly gettng more and more beat up. Couple that with the fact that his minutes are up to over 40 per game ... he may not survive the season.

I don't think Stoudemire / Anthony is a great fit on offense for the reasons I stated previously. When they are both on the floor, Stoudemire seems out of the flow. He is a great finisher but for some reason, when both are playing, he does not get the ball. I have seen him try to set up numerous high picks and get completly ignored.

I agree with your assessment on Chandler / Stoudemire defensively. In fact, Stoudemire and ANYBODY on defense is a lousy fit. He is just not a good defensive player.

As for defense, I go back to the root cause ... opposing team point gurads are beating our defenders off the dribble and creating shots in the lane. It makes our inside defenders look worse than they really are. I hope you are right about Shumpert, but he did suffer a very serious injury late last year - one that typically takes 18 months or so to fully heal. He is not yet ready to perform up to the level he was at last year.

eddhead
March 6th, 2013, 04:55 PM
The Knicks had a losing record in Anthony and Stoudemire’s first two seasons together, and advanced statistics showed the Knicks were consistently outscored when they shared the court. Both are score-first forwards who play little defense.


Although the Knicks are having a resurgent season — at 36-21, they are third in the Eastern Conference — their offense needs work and their rotation remains in flux. They are sometimes overreliant on 3-point shooting, and they have no clear second option after Anthony, who is averaging a team-high 28.2 points.


Exactly.


March 5, 2013

The Knicks Are Still Struggling to Get Their Stars to AlignBy HOWARD BECK (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/howard_beck/index.html)For 22 minutes Monday night, Amar’e Stoudemire was a man without limitations. He sprinted. He leapt. He dunked, repeatedly.

There were no knee injuries holding Stoudemire back. No defenders who could handle him. No other alpha-dog All-Stars competing for touches. Stoudemire was free to be Stoudemire, a springy, high-scoring forward who once dominated the N.B.A.

“I feel great,” Stoudemire said after scoring 22 points in the Knicks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/probasketball/nationalbasketballassociation/newyorkknicks/index.html?inline=nyt-org)’ 102-97 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers.

It was a noteworthy, potentially important moment in this still-evolving Knicks season. The Knicks need the old Stoudemire, or a reasonable approximation, if they have any hope of making a deep playoff run this spring. They might also need him in the present, given the sudden uncertainty surrounding Carmelo Anthony (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/carmelo_anthony/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s right knee.

The Knicks listed Anthony as questionable for Wednesday’s game in Detroit because of stiffness and soreness in the knee. The greater concern is whether Anthony will be available Thursday, when the Oklahoma City Thunder visit Madison Square Garden.

Anthony left Monday’s game in the second quarter after his knee buckled. After the game, he disclosed that it had been bothering him “for a couple weeks.” A magnetic resonance imaging test taken a few days ago showed no damage. It is possible Anthony just needs rest after averaging more than 40 minutes in his previous 10 games.

In an interview with ESPN radio in New York, Coach Mike Woodson acknowledged, “I play him too much.” Woodson also disclosed that Anthony had asked to come out of the game Monday before the knee gave out.

“Maybe I should have taken him out before he actually stumbled and took the fall,” Woodson said in the interview.

Although the Knicks are having a resurgent season — at 36-21, they are third in the Eastern Conference — their offense needs work and their rotation remains in flux. They are sometimes overreliant on 3-point shooting, and they have no clear second option after Anthony, who is averaging a team-high 28.2 points.

Stoudemire could perhaps solve those problems. After all, the purpose of pairing Anthony and Stoudemire two years ago was to create a powerful one-two punch, to attempt to match Miami’s LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. Yet it has never quite worked out that way.

The Knicks had a losing record in Anthony and Stoudemire’s first two seasons together, and advanced statistics showed the Knicks were consistently outscored when they shared the court. Both are score-first forwards who play little defense.

The greatest challenge confronting Woodson was to make sense of the Anthony-Stoudemire pairing. He was spared that problem when Stoudemire had knee surgery Oct. 31, removing him from the mix for two months.

In Stoudemire’s absence, Anthony became the new power forward, exploiting his quickness against bigger, slower defenders, and the Knicks thrived, going 18-5 to start the season. By the time Stoudemire returned Jan. 1, it was an easy call for Woodson to use him off the bench, rather than disrupt a winning formula.

Stoudemire has become a valued reserve, averaging 13.9 points in 23 minutes a game, mostly when Anthony is on the bench. The two have played only 16.6 minutes a game together over 26 games, according to the NBA.com (http://nba.com/) statistics tool. Last season, when Stoudemire was a starter, they shared the court for 25 minutes on average.

The results remain shaky. The Knicks’ net rating — a measure of points scored and allowed per 100 possessions — is a minus 3.6 when Anthony and Stoudemire play together this season, according to NBA.com (http://nba.com/). It was also a minus 3.6 last season.

Stoudemire’s recent strong play has created pressure to play him more, especially down the stretch in tight games. Woodson was criticized for leaving Stoudemire on the bench for the final minutes of Sunday’s loss to Miami.

Yet it is not clear that Stoudemire and Anthony would have any more success together now than they have had in the past, and Woodson said that he was still wrestling with how to use them. “I got to figure out early on in the game if it’s going to work,” he said Monday.

The other issue is that Stoudemire has been playing under a 30-minute limit imposed by the medical staff. Woodson ignored the edict Monday, playing Stoudemire for a season-high 31 minutes 55 seconds to ensure the victory, including 22 after Anthony left the game.

Stoudemire came through the game without a hitch, proving he can still carry the Knicks when needed. The question remains: Can the Knicks find a way to make him just as useful when Anthony is on the court.

“We’re pros, man,” Stoudemire said. “I played with Shaq. I played with other bigs in this league and we was able to make it work. It’s just a matter of understanding what each player brings to the table and building from that. I think we can make it work.”

REBOUNDS
Kenyon Martin signed a second 10-day contract Tuesday, extending his tryout with the Knicks. His first 10-day deal expired Monday.

ZippyTheChimp
March 7th, 2013, 11:09 AM
The Knicks have played 57 games this year. They were 18-4 over the first 22, and are 18 -17 over the last 35. Clearly their quality of play has degraded. Why? What is the only difference that we know of for sure?

No Wallace.

I don't think his main contribution was offensive production. His game time was about one quarter. Besides being able to rest Candler, what I omitted about Wallace is his locker room presence. A veteran who has won an NBA title.


The Knicks Are Still Struggling to Get Their Stars to Align

By HOWARD BECK (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/howard_beck/index.html)

For 22 minutes Monday night, Amar’e Stoudemire was a man without limitations. He sprinted. He leapt. He dunked, repeatedly.Cleveland and Detroit are not good teams. As I said previously, if you have a playoff-bound team, it's of little value to analyze games that the Knicks should win easily. But sportswriters have to write all the time; it's their job.

Again, defense won the Detroit game. The Knicks let them back in and the score was tied 65-65 at the end of three. Knicks held the Pistons to 12 points in the final quarter, and I must say, Stoudemire played well on defense, giving Chandler lots of bench time down the stretch. But again, the Pistons aren't a good team.

The Anthony-Stoudemire alignment really became an issue with Wallace gone. The talk about Stoudemire when he was ready to come back was about his willingness to come off the bench, not sharing the ball with Anthony. Their pairing is more a result of needing interior defense. Stoudemire said himself last month, "I've never been taught defense."

eddhead
March 7th, 2013, 02:27 PM
Regarding Stoudemire, I think your observation is a bit unfair. He has been very good in limited minutes since coming back. He tends to get 9-10 shots in 18 or so minutes and his FG percentage is very high.

I am not suggesting that defense is not important, only that the Knicks really have not been a stand out defensive team all year long even when Wallace was in the line-up. I will spare you the continued rant on their point guard situation, except to again suggest that is the root cause of their defensive struggles, now and back than. They lack quickness and they're getting killed off the dribble.

The problem with Stoudemire coming off the bench is without him the Knicks really don't have a second legitimate scoring option in the starting line-up. Felton is very uneven as a scorer, and they do not have a dependable 2 or 3 (assuming Anthony is playing the 4) go to guy. They were hot shooting 3's early in the season, but some of their shooters (Kidd, Smith for instance) have fallen off. I think they are coming to the conclusion that they need more minutes from Stoudemire in order to take some of the pressure off Anthony, and the only way to get those minutes is for both to play at the same time. They have to make it work.

ZippyTheChimp
March 7th, 2013, 03:42 PM
As I said, we're not going to agree.

How was I unfair to Stoudemire? I said I have no problem with his offense, so it's not necessary to bring up his shooting or FG percentage. I acknowledged that he played a good defensive game against Detroit, high praise I would think for someone who said that no one taught him defense.

You think they're not winning because they don't score; I think it's because they don't stop teams down the stretch. That's how they put a W up in their last game. They only scored 21 in the last quarter, but shut down the Pistons.

Their "point guard situation" was no different early in the season. Their interior defense was. The Knicks are the 6th worst team defending against the pick and roll; it's one of the main set plays against them. Say what you want about the guards, but defending it involves helping out and rotation. That's where I see Stoudemire at his worst.

At any rate, even if you want to lay it all on the guards - it's still defense.

Knicks president Glen Grunwald was on WFAN yesterday. He talked about the importance of signing Kenyon Martin, and said that the Knicks have to return to "the defensive intensity" they had earlier in the season.

I also think that just looking up overall game defensive stats misses a lot in an NBA game, where there is emphasis on scoring. During broadcasts, Frazier always talks about defense - that it's more a matter of determination than just skill. Most players don't want to expend energy on defense because the instant rewards aren't the same. If you watched the GS game where Curry burned Felton for 54 points, Frazier kept alluding to the fact that the guy is hot, but he said during the first half, and came back to it a few times:


It’s eventually going to come down to him (Felton) making one stop, just one stop.That’s what it’s going to take. That’s all that matters.And that's exactly what happened. With the score tied at 105 and under two minutes to play, Curry - who sat at 54 points with 11-13 from downtown - went up for a shot and was blocked by Felton.

Buried in season stats, a 109-105 game doesn't come off as a defensive effort.

The Knicks are 10th in the league in scoring. I think that's good enough.

eddhead
March 8th, 2013, 11:06 AM
I am not suggesting that the Knicks do not have strong offensive metrics on the season. I am suggesting they were stronger offensively during their first 22 games than they are since. They have clearly slipped.

Just as looking up overall defensive stats misses a lot, so does looking up overall offensive stats. At times they over rely on Anthony's scoring ability. Teams know they can focus on him down the stretch to make that one big stop you alluded to in Felton example.

Also, I am also not suggesting the team is a defensive powerhouse. I am suggesting they are not THAT much worse off now than they were during the first 22 games, Wallace notwithstanding. There was room to improve than, and there is room to improve now. Still, it was not defense that got them to 18-4.

Finally, I am not suggesting defensively their PG situation is worse off now. I am saying it has sucked all year long which is why they were as unremarkable defensively early on as they are now. This team would benefit from having a quick, pass first point guard. Feltion ain't him.

I too think Wallace was a huge loss for them. Yes, he filled a void defensively. But he was also very productive in limited minutes offensively, He also did a great job rebouding.

ZippyTheChimp
March 8th, 2013, 11:19 AM
Well, in closing, I still think that #10 in offense is enough to win. Yes, it would be nice to be #2 or 3; it would be nice to be #2 or 3 in everything.

I think they did the best thing reasonable and brought in a "Charles Oakley." At 35 years old, we'll see if it's enough.

eddhead
March 12th, 2013, 10:33 AM
Welll, I guiess the point on Stoudemire is moot now. sigh.

ZippyTheChimp
March 12th, 2013, 08:32 PM
Well, now they have a problem with bench scoring.

Depressing stuff about Stoudemire.

ZippyTheChimp
April 7th, 2013, 09:06 PM
Huge win for the Knicks today, beating the Thunder in Oklahoma City. That's two big wins on the road against tough teams (Miami also) in the remaining schedule. Keeps them 3 games up on Indiana in the loss column for the #2 seed in the East.

Knicks at 50-26, six games remaining.

Wash
@ Chicago
@ Cleve
Indiana
@ Charlotte
Atlanta

Pacers at 48-29, five games remaining.

Cleve
Brooklyn
@ New York
@ Boston
Phila

eddhead
April 8th, 2013, 11:23 AM
Maybe their most impressive win of the season against a team that had only 5 home losses all year long.

I am extremely suprised and pleased with the year Anthony has had. Last year he seemed to force a lot of shots and do little in the way of creating opportunities for his teammates. Not so, this year. Even against the Thunder where put the ball up 28 times, they didn't seem forced to me at all. And he also managed to pull down 12 boards, 9 on offense.

A key to this team is the play of J.R. Smith. He is by nature a chucker, but when he is on he is incredible. When not, the Knicks seem to lack for a secondary offensive threat who can create on his own.

Lately, he has been on. If he can sustain this, the Knicks will go deep into the playoffs.

GordonGecko
April 8th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Anthony seems to have been bothered by his knee a lot in the middle of the season. Hopefully this latest procedure carries him far enough into the playoffs. Any news on Sheed? And what's the deal with kmart

ZippyTheChimp
April 9th, 2013, 09:37 AM
Kmart should play tonight. Sheed is out until (maybe) the playoffs. Knicks said they wouldn't cut him if they needed to add a player. That seems to be less likely since they've opened up a lead. If they get through this week and lock the #2, they can rest starters next week before the playoffs.

ZippyTheChimp
April 16th, 2013, 10:37 AM
Not much to take out of the last two games - starters will mostly sit until playoffs.

Wallace played for the first time since Dec. Four minutes - Woodson said he looked pretty good, but Wallace said his foot was still sore.

If they can get 10 quality minutes from him off the bench, it would be a big plus.

eddhead
April 16th, 2013, 10:42 AM
I'll take it, but I would rather have Stoudemire back.

ZippyTheChimp
April 16th, 2013, 12:31 PM
The Knicks are a better team without Stoudemire. There may be other factors that would change it a few games, but the numbers are stark, over two long periods during the season.

Forget the last two meaningless games. For 80 games:

With Stoudemire: 16-13...... .552......projected season 44-36

Without:.............37-14...... .725......projected season 58-22

The Knicks would have lost the division to Brooklyn, and the last game against Atlanta could have been important for seeding.

eddhead
April 17th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Interesting statistic. But remember for much of that period, the Knicks were trying to establish a role for him. I don't have the stats, but he played much better and seemed to fit in better over the two-week period that immediately preceeded his last injury. I just got the sense he was fitting in better.

ZippyTheChimp
April 17th, 2013, 06:28 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with how well Stoudemire plays. Or if he's "better" or "worse" than Wallace and Martin. They seem to be the pieces that fit the Knicks better.

Football and baseball teams have big rosters; adding a linebacker or pitcher is usually a positive move. An NBA roster is 12, 5 on the court. Adding a player (who is playing well) doesn't always give you more. Sometimes it subtracts.

Kmart didn't need to acclimate or fit in. The Knicks were 13-5 when he played. He fit in because that's what they need. The same with Wallace, 16-4 when he played.

The Knicks don't have the luxury of finding a role for Stoudemire in the playoffs. I'd rather he sat out until next year, when they're still going to have to figure out what to do. His contract is a bigger problem for the Knicks than Arod for the Yankees.

ZippyTheChimp
April 20th, 2013, 06:33 PM
Game 1: Jason Kidd.

eddhead
April 20th, 2013, 09:41 PM
Kidd played with extraordinary energy. He made some huge plays on both ends of the floor at about the 10 minute mark in the 4th period- stripping the ball at one end and hustling in to steal an offensive rebound on the other. Interestingly, he was -5 for the game, but that doesn't tell the story.

I still say they could use a healthy Stoudemire though. Too much pressure on Anthony to score, especially with J.R coming out cold. You live and die with that dude.

Meanwhile, Tyson Chandler didn't take one shot. I am not sure what to make of that.

Not to keep harping on the Chicago thing, but I saw the game at original Harry Carey's in River North while enjoying a prime rib aus jus hero and downing several draft IPA's. Very cool

ZippyTheChimp
April 20th, 2013, 10:41 PM
Chandler said there's no problem with an injury, he just ran out of gas after missing several games. Martin had a big 8 minute stretch late in the game.

Knicks had trouble scoring from the perimeter - Smith was 1-7 from behind the arc, and there weren't many good looks. Easy to overlook Prigioni, who may also miss game two. The double point guard offense has been working very well; especially Felton-Prigioni, which I think is their best backcourt.

OTOH, the Celtics don't have a point guard now, and that shows. I don't see the Celtics winning this series any other way than by defense.

eddhead
April 21st, 2013, 01:29 AM
Martin played well, and I agree with you about Felton- Prigioni being effective offensively, although they lack quickness on the defensive end. Shumpert is clearly the best their best defensive guard, but they have him at SF where I don't find him to be as effective.

Spot on about the Celtics missing Rondo. They really turned the ball over a lot and that is a direct result of him not being in the game. But they were strong defensively.

ZippyTheChimp
April 21st, 2013, 07:44 PM
The Knicks have to stay contained, and not let the Celtics distract them.

ZippyTheChimp
April 24th, 2013, 12:05 AM
Big D the second half.

Kenyon Martin - 11 reb, 4 blocks.

eddhead
April 24th, 2013, 10:40 AM
It is amazing what they are getting from Martin, although in fairness, Garnett was all but out of the game by than. Anthony had a great second half as well.

ZippyTheChimp
April 24th, 2013, 11:18 AM
Well, all of this has to be tempered with the fact that the Celtics ran out of gas in the second half, scoring under 30 points in both games. The Knicks took control of the paint after halftime. Maybe this was by design, but it seemed to me that it was there for the entire game.

Chandler seemed more like his old self. Knicks did a good job on Jeff Green, who had no good looks from 3-pt.

ZippyTheChimp
April 27th, 2013, 05:06 PM
April 27, 2013


Acquired Tastes: Knicks and New York

By FINN COHEN

Most of my adult life, I have hated New York City.

In theory, I shouldn’t have. Both sides of my family have deep roots here. But I grew up in North Carolina, and any time spent in New York cultivated a distaste for the city that felt mutual. This was heightened almost three years ago when I found myself scrambling to make a living here and ranting about the inconsistency of the Q train to anyone who would listen.

Then a funny thing happened. I started becoming obsessed with the Knicks. I’m sure that most of my interest came from the obvious appeal of sports as escape. But there was something else, because I became inexplicably distressed by the Knicks’ difficulties. I wanted to see them succeed, and I couldn’t figure out why. All I knew was that something in the dysfunction of the Knicks had reawakened part of me dormant since childhood, and it sparked a strange process of assimilation with New York, which had forever felt like a nemesis.

In North Carolina, basketball is like a religion, so I was accustomed to the concept of living and dying with a team, trading stats from a previous night’s game with a stranger and referring to players by their first names as if we were close friends.

When I was young, the Chicago Bulls were my N.B.A. team (Michael Jordan grew up in Wilmington, N.C., where I spent my elementary school years), but the Knicks were a close second. I remember watching playoff games between the teams and thinking Patrick Ewing was terrifying but cool. So a part of that childhood passion for basketball had anchored itself, in a small way, to the Knicks. And when they caught my attention decades later, when I moved to Brooklyn , it slowly began transforming my relationship with the city.

I found myself at work with one eye on my computer and the other on a television, watching the soundless broadcast and imagining the roar at Madison Square Garden when, for instance, the Knicks hit 14 3-point shots in the first half against the Boston Celtics last spring. While visiting North Carolina, I persuaded friends to let me take over their living rooms to watch the Knicks be run over by Miami on a nationally televised game. Swish by swish or brick by brick, I was slowly tilting my identity closer to New York through these newfound sympathy pains.

People in North Carolina told me last year, “Oh, you just got caught up in Linsanity.”

But that wasn’t really it.

Maybe it was Mike Woodson, a coach who inherited a team of Bad News Bears, added two former North Carolina Tar Heels (Raymond Felton and Rasheed Wallace), and often had the same firm look that my stepfather used to adopt when I refused to understand why the yard couldn’t be raked over a period of weeks rather than in one Saturday afternoon. Woodson’s insistence on fundamentals spoke to something in the way I was raised.

Maybe it was the moment when the crowd was chanting Wallace’s name on opening night this season against the Heat and Woodson looked down the bench and yelled: “Rasheed! You want to play?”

Maybe it was the misfit crew assembled at the beginning of this season that turned a casual interest into a fervor.

Who wouldn’t be intrigued by Pablo Prigioni, a 35-year-old rookie from Argentina whose stilted dribble would get him laughed off any street court in Brooklyn; the dazzlingly frustrating offense of J. R. Smith; Jason Kidd, a point guard whose resemblance to Elmer Fudd was repeatedly illustrated in side-by-side images texted to me by a friend in North Carolina; or Wallace himself, all 317 career technical fouls’ worth of charisma?

Maybe it was the good cop/mellifluous cop chemistry between Mike Breen and Walt Frazier on MSG Network’s game broadcasts, perhaps the oddest pairing of commentators outside of Dick Vitale and, well, anyone Dick Vitale works with.

Or maybe it was just the stunning highs and stupefying lows of this season’s team, associated with the “New York” on the front of their jerseys, that made me realize something. A team that could beat the Heat three times but lose to the Toronto Raptors twice, that could come out of the gate any given night looking like a pride of lions or a herd of sloths, was an apt metaphor for my own experiences in a city of extremes.

Sometimes, the subway train arrives as soon as I reach the platform; sometimes, the doors slam shut inches from my face and the train waits, maddeningly, for 30 more seconds before pulling away. Once, I saw a woman stop to help a man who was having a heart attack; another day, I was part of the faceless mass that barks at lost tourists who stop in the middle of the sidewalk. One day, I was balancing a tray of coffee mugs in Park Slope while a child at Table 3 was trying to wrestle it out of my hands; another day, I was somehow entering the New York Times building for a job interview.

This city is the subject of countless clichés. Mine used to be “I hate it here.” These days, watching Tyson Chandler’s Viking warlord face after every dunk just reminds me that there are rewards to be had, and the struggle that comes before and after each one always makes them sweeter.

© 2013 The New York Times Company

GordonGecko
April 27th, 2013, 08:38 PM
what's that guy's problem

TREPYE
May 1st, 2013, 11:30 PM
April 27, 2013


Acquired Tastes: Knicks and New York

By FINN COHEN

....any given night looking like a pride of lions or a herd of sloths, was an apt metaphor for my own experiences in a city of extremes.

New York Times Company

Tonight they were a herd of sloths....
(There goes my Friday night plans)

eddhead
May 2nd, 2013, 10:39 AM
I missed the game (house hunting) but it does not seem like it was a great effort.

ZippyTheChimp
May 2nd, 2013, 11:10 AM
It started out great...11-0. Maybe that was the problem.

Too much complaining about the refs by Martin and Chandler.

We got the BAD JR of the past. Hope that's gone.

On the plus side, Felton was excellent. Celtics don't have an answer for him. Shumpert is looking better defensively every game.

Rivers used a seven man rotation. They've got to be tired. Knicks didn't hit threes in transition, and the game slowed to a half-court struggle - what the Celtics wanted.

Knicks need to up the tempo on Friday.

TREPYE
May 4th, 2013, 06:28 AM
Knicks Move On After Another Scare
Posted by John Schuhmann



BOSTON – The New York Knicks were the better team. And in the end, the better team won.


But, man, the Boston Celtics certainly made New York sweat, putting on one more display of Celtic pride before bowing out in Game 6 of their first round series, an 88-80 victory for the Knicks that puts them in a conference semifinals matchup with the Indiana Pacers starting Sunday.


It’s New York’s first playoff series victory in 13 years, a mixture of relief and exaltation for their long-suffering fans. It’s the first time Boston has lost in the first round since acquiring Kevin Garnett in 2007, and maybe the end of the KG era. The Knicks had already ended the Celtics’ streak of five straight division titles, but this was the official changing of the guard.


Both teams did their best to make it interesting in the fourth quarter though. The Knicks lost their way offensively after building a 26-point lead early in the period. They stubbornly stuck to isolation basketball that produced only tough shots and turnovers.


The Celtics finally found some offense by turning up the pressure defensively. Avery Bradley‘s ball hawking produced five New York miscues in a six-possession stretch in the middle of the 20-0 run. It was a furious push, but it eventually ran out of gas and the Celtics could never get to within less than four points.


The hole had been dug too deep. The Boston offense never looked more anemic than in did in the first half of Game 6, scoring a paltry 27 points on 43 possessions. Their spacing was terrible, they couldn’t hold onto the ball, and they couldn’t make a shot. In fact, they had more turnovers than made field goals until the 7:45 mark of the fourth.


“They wanted to play well, and they didn’t,” Celtics coach Doc Rivers said of his team. “They know they’re better than what they played.”


Ultimately, as resilient as they proved to be, the Celtics were a team without a point guard or much of a shot against an opponent with much more firepower. But hey, they saved face after losing the first three games, avoiding the sweep on Sunday, making the Knicks look silly for wearing all black to Game 5 on Wednesday, and giving their fans one final thrill with the 20-0 run on Friday.


Now, they face what may be a difficult summer. Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett looked older than ever in this series, and the best move for the franchise may be to part ways with their two prideful stars.


“We need more,” Rivers said “But the key is, for us, do you want to take away to get more? And that will be a decision that will be made later.”


“All three of us agreed to speak later,” Garnett added. “It’s a different day for that conversation.”


Rivers himself said he’s leaning toward coming back to coach at least one more year, but will take some time to make a decision.


The Knicks won’t have much time to prepare for the Pacers, an even tougher defensive team than the Celtics. And it doesn’t bode well that the Knicks scored less than a point per possession in this series and that Carmelo Anthony shot just 38 percent, at one point missing 19 straight 3-pointers.


“It’s not something I’m too concerned about,” Anthony said. “I’ll take those shots any day. I won’t stop shooting. My teammates need me to shoot.”


The good news is that New York may be playing its best defense of the season, having held the Celtics under a point per possession in five of the six games. It’s been three years since Boston was a good offensive team, but the Knicks’ defense was, at times, very responsible for how bad their opponent looked.


The Knicks ranked 16th defensively in the regular season and weren’t necessarily playing very well on that end when they won 13 straight games in March and early April. But they’ve seemingly flipped the switch.


“We have incredible athletes,” Tyson Chandler said. “That combined with focus is dangerous. I’ve been saying that the whole time I’ve been here and we’re starting to show it now.”


Chandler added that he feels 100 percent recovered from the bulging disc in his neck that he was dealing with late in the season, which may be the most important thing for the Knicks as they get set to face Indiana’s frontline of David West and Roy Hibbert. And that Iman Shumpert played one his best games of the season – 17 points on 6-for-9 shooting, six rebounds and a critical steal down the stretch – on Friday is also encouraging.


And hey, though the Knicks almost fumbled away that 3-0 lead they had, it takes a certain amount of resilience to finish off a series when your battle-tested opponent just doesn’t want to go down.


“It was an ugly series,” Knicks coach Mike Woodson said, “because neither team could really score or break loose. We did what we had to do to get out of this round.”


NBA.com

TREPYE
May 4th, 2013, 06:39 AM
Pessimism had always been near and dear to me, but early in the fourth I absconded this game from her with silly notions of optimism; only for her to show up on my door with a jealous look and tell me: "Ahem, not even a 26 pt lead in the fourth is safe"

:rolleyes:..... Thanks for the near heart-attack, Knicks.

eddhead
May 4th, 2013, 05:22 PM
What he said.


I actually had to turn it off for a few minutes because I couldn't believe I was seeing what I was seeing.

Shumpert was amazing in the second half. He has a shot at being a real star in this league.

eddhead
May 5th, 2013, 10:18 PM
28 shots. not very selective.

We need to see the Anthony who made his teammates better all year. Not the Anthony who shoots 10/28 and shoots 6 from the line.

ZippyTheChimp
May 5th, 2013, 11:54 PM
Anthony needs a wingman. Smith has disappeared.

TREPYE
May 6th, 2013, 01:12 AM
^I dont think Anthony understands that he cannot be his own wingman...

ZippyTheChimp
May 6th, 2013, 03:14 PM
I hardly ever hear defense talked about in these posts.

The #1 reason the Knicks lost the game was that they allowed Indiana, not a high scoring team, to put up 102 pts. Augustin put up 16 in 13 minutes. 4 for 5 from behind the arc.

Besides the points allowed, this means fewer opportunities for the Knicks to score in transition.

Unless someone can offer an alternative, the Knicks will not advance unless Smith can hit from the perimeter. The game back from his suspension, he started 0-10, and he's a combined 29% shooting, 26% yesterday.

That's their game.

Shumpert is coming along, but he still needs work from long range. He had a few good looks late in the game, and put up bricks.

eddhead
May 7th, 2013, 01:09 AM
Actually, good point about defense in this game. In addition to the 3's they got murdered in the paint. And to repeat a previous point, Felton is not a great defensive point guard. He gets killed off the first step.

Agree with you about Shumpert. I do think he will be a star in this league but he needs to be more consistent from the arc.

ZippyTheChimp
May 8th, 2013, 09:22 AM
JR Smith had an even worse offensive game, although he was more active in the paint - 6 REBs and a block.

Knicks stepped up the defense though - 11 steals and Pacers had 21 TOs. Transition game created good looks and offensive rebound opportunities. Knicks were badly outplayed in the paint in game #1 - Pacers had 33 D-REB while Knicks had 6 O-REB. In game #2 it was 28 - 13. In total REB, Knicks were down 14 in game #1, up 2 last night.

Shumpert should spend the off-season working on his three.

Hopefully, Novak will benefit from the three days off, and be ready to go on Saturday.

eddhead
May 10th, 2013, 10:55 AM
If Shumpert can become a consistent 3 pt shooter he will be a star in this league. Combined with his leaping abilility, rebounding and most importantly defensive prowess, he would become a tremendous player. As it is, he is shooting 46% from beyond the arc in the playoffs hitting more threes than he did in all of April.

He has awesome potential.

ZippyTheChimp
May 10th, 2013, 12:44 PM
Well, I read it somewhere, but forget the specifics - because of salary structures, JR Smith will probably not be on the Knicks next season, so there's an opening for Shumpert.

ZippyTheChimp
May 12th, 2013, 12:47 PM
Brick City

eddhead
May 12th, 2013, 01:27 PM
everyone sucked, but Carmelo sucked the least.

GordonGecko
May 12th, 2013, 04:04 PM
Well, I read it somewhere, but forget the specifics - because of salary structures, JR Smith will probably not be on the Knicks next season, so there's an opening for Shumpert.
Because of salary cap considerations, the most the Knicks can offer him is $5M. Although, if he keeps playing like this no team is going to want to match that.

eddhead
May 13th, 2013, 12:26 AM
In all fairness, the guy had a 102 degree tempeture the day before the game. He could not have been feeling too good.

TREPYE
May 15th, 2013, 09:16 AM
This iteration of our Knicks..... Not exactly the heart of a champion, thats for sure :rolleyes:

This series is like a big F**K YOU from Donnie Walsh to Jim Dolan for not letting him run the team his way as the baskeball expert....

eddhead
May 15th, 2013, 10:26 AM
It is not entirely fair to blame this on Anthony who was the best player on the team again last night, especially when Smith shoots 1/8, Kidd (again) fails to score a point, Felton is being taken to school, and Chandler of all people seems to be getting man-handled.

The reason I am so hard on Anthony is that i truely think he has talent to be a top 3 player in the league if he concentrates less on getting his shots, and more on facilitating opportunities for others, the way James does. He is not James, but he is an awesome talant. Chandler alluded to it in the papers the other day. He and Smith have to be willing to drive the land and kick it out to guys with open looks. Of course, it would help if someone would knock down and damn jump shot once n a while, and Chandler would reestablish his defensive presence.

Right now Anthony is playing well. We need him to play great. He has it in him, and demonstrated as much throuhout the season. If he can pick it up again, we still have a shot. But the Knicks fortunes clearly rest on his shoulders -not because he is playing badly, but because he is not playing up to the level of greatnesss he can.

ZippyTheChimp
May 15th, 2013, 11:06 AM
@Trepye: Would Donnie have kept Chandler?

I agree with Eddhead that Chandler has been getting eaten up by an inexperienced player; maybe it's his nagging injury, but he's not playing like the center of last year. More than that, as the player on the team with championship experience, he's not providing a steadying presence. The Knicks as a team complain about the refs too much, and I don't understand how Woodson - it's not his style - permits it; but Chandler has been the worst this year, getting stupid technicals.

The team with veterans has been the one losing its cool, while the young team has kept its poise.

Trying to get into Anthony's head: The way he may look at the situation is that the only game they won is when he took complete control of the offense. But that can't work in every game. He's actually taken less shots in the playoffs than during the season, so I don't know how he comes out for the next game.

Woodson kept JR Smith together for the season, but he's clearly gone now, since his one game suspension. I saw it late in the game, there was time for one last run. Smith inbounded at half court, couldn't find anyone and threw it right to a Pacer. Then he just stood there.

Shumpert looked terrible on offense. Maybe it's his knee. Who knows. Woodson was asked if Shumpert was sitting because he wasinjured, and said no, it was because he wasn't scoring.
That's the problem. Knicks aren't going to win games if they're held under 90 points. The key isn't Anthony; it's #2. If Felton has to be that #2, they don't spread the floor.

This series rests on JR Smith.

GordonGecko
May 15th, 2013, 11:33 AM
Woodson stubbornly benching Copeland makes no sense

TREPYE
May 15th, 2013, 02:09 PM
@Trepye: Would Donnie have kept Chandler?

I agree with Eddhead that Chandler has been getting eaten up by an inexperienced player; maybe it's his nagging injury, but he's not playing like the center of last year. More than that, as the player on the team with championship experience, he's not providing a steadying presence. The Knicks as a team complain about the refs too much, and I don't understand how Woodson - it's not his style - permits it; but Chandler has been the worst this year, getting stupid technicals.



Well, 20/20 HS notwithstanding, had he gotten the knicks Hibbert instead of Chandler how would the Knicks be faring in series? But that is just one example, there are of course other things to consider.

ZippyTheChimp
May 15th, 2013, 02:39 PM
Well, 20/20 HS notwithstanding, had he gotten the knicks Hibbert instead of Chandler how would the Knicks be faring in series?Well, that's just silly. Hibbert was picked 17th overall, and not by the Pacers. That statement has nothing to do with whether or not Donnie would have kept Chandler. He was Def Player of the Year in 2012.

Why stop there; why didn't the Knicks get LaBron?

Back in this thread, it was discussed whether the Knicks should trade Chandler and another player for Dwight Howard. How would that have looked now in 20/20 HS?

20/20 HS isn't "notwithstanding." It's the way you look at things; anyone of us can be a genius looking at the past.

Anyway, you miss the point about Chandler. The Knicks aren't losing this series because Hibbert is better than Chandler. They're losing because they're not playing like the better team they are.

TREPYE
May 15th, 2013, 04:03 PM
Oh pipe down with the barbs Chimpy, I was just postulating a straw man (hence 20/20 being thrown in there :rolleyes:) signifying that Donnie could/would have opted for younger and athletic team that has one player over the age of 27 (like the pacers) instead of having one player 27 or younger (like the Knicks); which irrespective of what team you define as "better", the series, so far, defines the Pacers as not just better, but vastly superior.

Besides the fact that I dont believe that LeBron was ever coming to NY, I though he should have stayed in Cleveland; didn't want him to begin with, too much sideshow.

ZippyTheChimp
May 15th, 2013, 04:37 PM
You begin with one of your rants:
This series is like a big F**K YOU from Donnie Walsh to Jim Dolan for not letting him run the team his way as the baskeball expert.... And I'm supposed to know all your doing is "postulating a straw-man."

If it was a straw-man, then it really had no purpose, or as I said, silly.


which irrespective of what team you define as "better", the series, so far, defines the Pacers as not just better, but vastly superior. Have you postulated another straw-man; or just straight 20/20 HS?

Hard to tell.

eddhead
May 16th, 2013, 01:01 AM
I agree with GG on Copeland. As it stands I believe Anthony is shooting less than 40% from the field in this series; and even worse than that in the 4th period. It is not that he is taking too many shots, it is more like no one else is capable of putting the ball in the hoop so the shots he takes are tough ones. Maybe Copeland can help.

ZippyTheChimp
May 16th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Could work, but they'll lose defense. There was a point late in game 4 (maybe 1:50) where the Knicks were down 9 and the Pacers turned it over. A score cuts it to 7. Knicks missed the shot, but what killed them was that the Pacers (Augustin I think) came back and canned one from the arc. That was the nail.

I think the Knicks should go back to small. Start Prigioni and Felton in the backcourt. Chandler has to step up in the paint. Hibbert isn't Olajuwon.

TREPYE
May 17th, 2013, 02:40 PM
@ Garden last night, sounds/feels just as awesome (if not better) than what you hear on TV.:D (Blue Man Group introduces them now, lol?) Our shots were actually going in, theirs werent for a change; and it helps that the team was playing like cornered rats. Lets do it again, and maybe one more after that....;)

eddhead
May 17th, 2013, 05:25 PM
Could work, but they'll lose defense. There was a point late in game 4 (maybe 1:50) where the Knicks were down 9 and the Pacers turned it over. A score cuts it to 7. Knicks missed the shot, but what killed them was that the Pacers (Augustin I think) came back and canned one from the arc. That was the nail.

I think the Knicks should go back to small. Start Prigioni and Felton in the backcourt. Chandler has to step up in the paint. Hibbert isn't Olajuwon.

I am OK with going small and using Chandler in place of Amare on the second unit. I never thought I would actually say that though

ZippyTheChimp
May 17th, 2013, 08:30 PM
For what it's worth, game 6 will be the only one of the series that's a must-win for the Pacers.

They didn't have to win any one particular game, but they don't want to blow two chances to close out the series, and have to try to do it in the Garden.

So pressure will be on both teams tomorrow.

eddhead
May 18th, 2013, 11:56 PM
Very disappointing. Certainly, Melo played hard and well, unlike most of the rest of the team, but s well as he played through 3, it seemed like he never did quite do much in the 4th period of any game they lost this series.

Chandler was a let down and so was Smith, who has to be gone. Novak and Stoudemire were all but forgotten, and Kidd did nothing all series long.

The only real bright spot besides Anthony was Shumpert who looks like he might have a nice future.

TREPYE
May 19th, 2013, 09:19 AM
Hibberts sickening block on Melo epitomized the series.

GordonGecko
May 19th, 2013, 12:28 PM
let's go rangers

eddhead
May 20th, 2013, 10:24 AM
Maybe not.

TREPYE
May 21st, 2013, 10:19 AM
One thing is for sure, Melo ain't no Eli in the fourth quater; albeit completely different sports, there is something to be said for having the mental and physical endurance to be your greatest at the end of a contest. Its not how you start, its how you finish.

Woodson should set up a lunch meeting.

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 10:37 AM
Kevin Durant had the same 4th quarter problems in the Thunder playoff series. It changed for him when Russel Westbrook went away.

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 10:48 AM
Again, defense is ignored.

Indiana - a good defensive team - shouldn't be scoring 106 points. 99 by the Knicks should be enough. That Matador Defense in the first half came back to bite them.

Of all people, it was JR Smith who said it in the locker room - "we didn't make the key stops down the stretch." If you watch Knick games, Frazier says it all the time - in big games you have to make big stops at the end.

Although he disappeared offensively for most of the playoffs, Smith had a generally good defensive game. Led the team in rebounds with 10.

eddhead
May 21st, 2013, 11:07 AM
That IS a good point, but there is no getting around the fact that as well as he played through 3 qtrs, Melo disappointed in the 4th. It could be he was tired; he played ove4 44 minutes in most games - but he showed nothing in the 4th during the team's losses.

And Chanldler again alluded to the lack of flow on offense during his exit interview yesterday insinuating that the Knicks had become an isolation, jump shooting team. We can talk about defense - and we should, but the Knicks DO need more flow on the offense end, especially when they go small. There is no excuse for poor ball movement when you have a 2 playing 3, and and 3 playing 4. The offense cannot be 100% predicated on Melo getting 30 shots a game.

What happened to Novak? Why so much hesitiancy to use Copeland on the second unit? And when did Smith stop taking the ball to the hoop?
With the talant this team had, Raymond Felton should not be its second scoring option.

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 11:20 AM
I think it's THE point. Defense lost the game.

Chandler simply stunk on defense. I can understand why he's rather talk about offensive flow than boxing out.

Novak was out because of the above.

When the Knicks quickly ate up the deficit and took a 2 point lead late in the game, they had the game in their grasp right there. They had the Pacers stunned, and the crowd out of it. From that point on, the game was defense. The Knicks couldn't make big stops. It was Hibbert who made the key defensive stop on Melo.

TREPYE
May 21st, 2013, 11:50 AM
Defense becomes a bit easier when scorer is not at best; and secondary scorers are, for lack of a better term, total shit.

Case and point, Melo is not a dunker when he takes shots close to the rim he simply bounces ball off the backboard or lobs it gently into the basket, in the Hibbert swat he elected to go with a shot that is not his bread and butter; big spot in the game to be going with anything else. Mental exhaustion?

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 12:12 PM
Defense becomes a bit easier when scorer is not at best;I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Defense should never be easy down the stretch in a close game. Listen to NBA coaches and ex players. Defense takes will; it isn't as instantly gratifying as scoring, and it's not easy to get players to do it.


Melo is not a dunker when he takes shots close to the rim he simply bounces ball off the backboard or lobs it gently into the basket,Melo can dunk, and always does when he has a clear lane to the basket. What you usually see Melo do under the basket is try to avoid defenders arms, or draw a foul. Don't underestimate how strong he is.


in the Hibbert swat he elected to go with a shot that is not his bread and butter; big spot in the game to be going with anything else. Mental exhaustion?How about a little credit here? Hibbert came over and made a tremendous play; he could have just as easily got Melo on the arm, or with the body, and been called for a foul.

What do you think?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5rxmhZxUQo

eddhead
May 21st, 2013, 02:04 PM
That was a great block. There is just no other way around it.

TREPYE
May 21st, 2013, 03:04 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Melo has been very weak offensively in the fourth quater; even though he really hadn't been double teamed. His deficiencies make defensive stops more possbile as drawing a double team will strain team defense.


One thing is for sure, Melo ain't no Eli in the fourth quater; albeit completely different sports, there is something to be said for having the mental and physical endurance to be your greatest at the end of a contest. Its not how you start, its how you finish.

It was unquestionably one of the best/clutchest blocks you will ever see, but Melo enabled it. Its a classic second guess to say that he shouldn't have dunked, my point is that it is not his strongest highest percentage shot when he is close to the basket; boucing it off the backboard or lobbing it is. Had it been Stout (or Blake Griffin) who got rejected there would have been nothing to say because dunking is his best scoring move when close to the basket.


Defense should never be easy down the stretch in a close game. Listen to NBA coaches and ex players. Defense takes will...

The example above serves to make a larger point that he is not at optimal level at the end of a game and not going to his bread and butter move and instead trying to dunk on a seven footer in what could have been very easily considered the basket of the game exemplifies that. Furthermore lets not forget the other critical turnover he had soon thereafter.

I mean, do you think Melo is clutch?

eddhead
May 21st, 2013, 03:20 PM
BTW - While the Ddefense did indeed suck, I don't think defense alone cost them the game - in fact they still could have won despite the poor d. Don't overlook the comment on secondary scorers. It is not anaccident that the Knicks made a run when Shumpert got hot in the third.

eddhead
May 21st, 2013, 03:27 PM
I mean, do you think Melo is clutch?

Anthony had an outstanding season, and performed at high levels throuhout game 6 up to the 4th qtr. You can attribute that to not being clutch, or just plain being tired. He played 44 minutes or so - who does that?

My bigger issue with him is he tries to hard to carry the game on his shoulders. He is a superior player when he is not only getting his shots, but moving the ball and creating shots for others. It may not be fair to compare him with James, but at the end of the day, I really DO feel he has that kind of talent at least on offense. But sometimes I think he feels like he can fix things by going 1 x 5. There are times when he is taking the ball up from half-court and you just know, he is going to take the shot no matter what. That is not good. Or he'll decide at the last possible moment while hanging in the air that this is not going to work and he'll shovel a bullet pass from 3 feet to Chandler who can't handle it.

He has to work harder to help the team create a flow on offense.

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 06:33 PM
Melo has been very weak offensively in the fourth quater; even though he really hadn't been double teamed. His deficiencies make defensive stops more possbile as drawing a double team will strain team defense.This sounds made up to me, so I'll just state:

eFG% for most scorers drops off in the 4th quarter. They get tired.

This past season, 1st quarter and 4th quarter: Melo's numbers dropped .055. LeBron James' numbers dropped .071.


It was unquestionably one of the best/clutchest blocks you will ever see, but Melo enabled it. Its a classic second guess to say that he shouldn't have dunked,You should stop right here.

But you didn't.


my point is that it is not his strongest highest percentage shot when he is close to the basket; boucing it off the backboard or lobbing it is.Melo's percentage splits by shot type:

Dunk: .932
Hook: .800
Tip: .475
Jump: .410
Layup: .477

The fact that I had to look up this stuff, when just the video would have convinced anyone who knows basketball, leads me to conclude that you're just saying anything to justify a conclusion. 20/20 hindsight again.

Do you think that maybe Ray Felton, the PG, the one who usually has the ball in his hands, only took seven shots, made none of them, was a factor?

Melo played 42 minutes. He poured in 39 points. One of Smith's two 3-pointers, his best look of the night, came on a drive by Melo who spotted him setting up cross court. Trouble was that Smith was only 2-9 from long range. Nothing Melo can do about that.

I mentioned Kevin Durant down the stretch without Westbrook. I guess he sucks in the 4th quarter too.

I don't know what else to say to you.

TREPYE
May 21st, 2013, 10:26 PM
Irrespective of percentage of success as there are different variables (like having a seven footer front of him) that make them more or less successful (u talk about me making up stuff and you throw a whole bunch of numbers up without citing them) dunking is not the type of attempt he tries the most at that range especially when there is someone in front of him (is there a stat for contested dunk attempts?).

I understand that u never change ur mind zip I aint trying to. The first inclination or thought that pops into ur head is of course always infallible as you always take the conversation on this contortion of numbers and figure to thump ur chest and "prove" ur right. Whatever.

U are probably going to contort this too but Ill take another stab at it since u didnt bother to answer it the first time: Is Melo clutch in the fourth quater?

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 10:56 PM
You don't believe what you see, and now you don't believe the damn numbers? I didn't "contort" the numbers, I just listed them as they appear. I knew you would refuse to understand that the high percentage move for a forward with a clear lane to the hoop is a dunk. He didn't have a "seven footer in front of him." Hibbert ran over for the block, a move that often results in a foul call. It was a bang-bang play.

I take it back. You don't know basketball. Your posts here are always after the fact.

Argue with someone who does:
That was a great block. There is just no other way around it.

He also answered your question about clutch. Since you expect the worst from me, why the hell should I accommodate you.

I'm done with you.

TREPYE
May 22nd, 2013, 01:12 AM
I never meant to said u contort the numbers themselves (should have said "with" numbers not "of"; btw I never got citations) but rather contort the argument using numbers that do not get to the heart of my point. Its absurdly obvious that dunks are high percentage shots but some players can overpower defenders with dunks better than others. Anthony aint one of them. This demostrated lack of judment at a critical point in the game denotes in part his lack of clutchness in the fourth quarter. But not only do you not answer the original inquiry but you shirk from it....


I'm done with you.
Boo-hoo...

ZippyTheChimp
May 22nd, 2013, 02:02 AM
Look at the video.

Since I don't think you know basketball, the lane is 16 feet wide. When Melo spins around George and dribbles once before going up, he's at the edge of the lane. Hibert is standing at the 12 foot line. So they are 14 feet apart, maybe further since Melo is closer to the baseline.

That's not challenging someone standing in your way. Hibert closed the distance and made a great play without fouling. Melo also had George on his back trailing the play.

I get your point, but it has nothing to do with what happened. Watch the video. Look at it frame by frame. I don't know how many games you've seen in person, but if you sit behind the hoop you realize that the court isn't as compressed as it looks on TV.

The numbers I posted have nothing to do with any twisting of any argument. I just thought your "high percentage" remark was silly, so I gave you numbers to chew on. Bad taste?

Melo is 6-8 235 lbs. He is considered exceptionally strong at the #3. He can dunk; yes he is one of them.

As far as "shrinking from an argument," you've got to be kidding. When have I ever done that?

I just don't think you know what you're talking about. And if you're blinded to what's on that video because you want to blame everything on Melo, I'm not about to get into a discussion over a subjective topic like "clutch" with you.

BTW: I'm OK with you not liking Melo; you just picked the wrong play.

TREPYE
May 22nd, 2013, 10:14 AM
BTW: I'm OK with you not liking Melo; you just picked the wrong play.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Another contortion; I never said I do not like Melo, I started the statemen with the opinion that he does not share the clutch qualities as Eli Manning who is at his absolute greatest at the end of a game. But you still shirk as I have yet gotten a response for my original inquiry....



One thing is for sure, Melo ain't no Eli in the fourth quater; albeit completely different sports, there is something to be said for having the mental and physical endurance to be your greatest at the end of a contest. Its not how you start, its how you finish.

Woodson should set up a lunch meeting.


I mean, do you think Melo is clutch?


U are probably going to contort this too but Ill take another stab at it since u didnt bother to answer it the first time: Is Melo clutch in the fourth quater?


This demostrated lack of judment at a critical point in the game denotes in part his lack of clutchness in the fourth quarter. But not only do you not answer the original inquiry but you shirk from it....

Boo-hoo...
And your opinon about this is?? ....lets see how you avert this time.

But you resort to you dopey little insults cuz obviously responding in a civilized mature manner (such as just saying, I disagree because Melo had already commited to dunking and did not have time to change his approach to score; I still would have disagreed because his first inclination should have not been to dunk) would not exclamate the fact that you think you are ALWAYS right. And guess what, the statement about his shot selection is an opinion, not stated as a fact. But god-forbid someone has an opinion different than your own, here comes the primate flinging his feces at ya, aw, how cute.....


Since I don't think you know basketball.....

TREPYE
May 22nd, 2013, 02:26 PM
Anthony had an outstanding season, and performed at high levels throuhout game 6 up to the 4th qtr. You can attribute that to not being clutch, or just plain being tired. He played 44 minutes or so - who does that?


I factor stamina (whether it be mental or physical) into being clutch. I agree that he does loose perception of team-ball at points.

eddhead
May 22nd, 2013, 07:02 PM
I don't agree with the first part of your statment about stamina being a part of clutch, and while I agree that his instincts and skills often result in a hesitancy to share the ball, and slow down the flow of the offense, in this series some of that criticism is mitigated by just how ineffective the Knicks secondary scorers were. Smith added nothing, Felton is really not a solid second choice on offense, and Kidd didn't even score. Shumpert, who I think will be a star one day, was inconsistent throughout.

The question is did the secondary scorers fail because they got cold, or because the offense lost its flow? Or is it the other way around, i.e. did Anthony revert to trying to carry the scoring because no one else seemed able to hit a damn jump shot.

I think it is a bit of both, but don't discount the latter - many of the Knicks secondary scorers were virtually useless for a good part of the series. Remember, when Shumpert got hot in the third, he was given the opportunity to shoot. Anthony did not try to take the ball away from him than. There were not enough of those moments. Perhaps Anthony felt like he had to carry the scoring because everyone else sucked.

Bottom line to me is the Knicks need more scoring consistent options. Smith is too streaky to be relied upon, Stoudemire cannot be counted on because of health concerns and besides when he plays Anthony moves to 3 where he is effective but less effective than at 4. Felton is an OK 1, but not an efficient scorer. When he is at his best, Chandler is a force on defense, but a liability on offense. The rest of the team constitutes a combination of effective role players, or older guys who are spent (Camby, Kidd).

And let's not forget Zippy's comments on defense. Outide of Chandler, Shumpert, and Martin (guarding the 4 but not the 5), this team is lacking defensive talent.

TREPYE
May 23rd, 2013, 09:53 AM
Melo when he is focused and commited is a very good on-the-ball defender. But he doesnt committ to it nearly as much as he should. But it does seem like he played through a partially torn labrum; thats admirable, cuz he never did use it as an excuse. Fatigue is definitely more plausible when injured and thus explains in part the 4th quater deficiensies he had.

I really hope that Chandler was just hurt cuz he was a complete no-show and it was very disheartening to watch. Man, if Shumpert can get any semblance of a consistent jumpshot he could be very spectacular all around player... I love watching him play defense. Martin was good and plays with alot of intensity too, he fueled that 13-game winning streak.

BTW that streak is the quintessence of peaking at the wrong time. Reminds me of the 97 knicks who were peaking at the right time until David Stern decided to play God and suspended half the team and single handedly won the series for the Heat. His retirement is a good riddance; the Bulls, Lakers and Heat should definitely be sending him generous retirement gifts for his assistance throughout the years.

GordonGecko
November 20th, 2013, 12:50 AM
http://failuremag.com/images/uploads/articles/hindenburg.jpg

http://www.titanicuniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/titanic-sinking-underwater.jpg

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20110106/0023ae606e660e8f62fc03.jpg

ZippyTheChimp
November 20th, 2013, 05:14 PM
http://www.indianajones5.com/new_indiana_jones_movie_film/indiana_jones_and_the_raiders_of_the_lost_ark_mari on_ravenwood_plot_1.jpg

"Marion, don't look at the Knicks. Shut your eyes, Marion. Don't look at them, no matter what happens! "

eddhead
November 20th, 2013, 05:56 PM
p.u.

TREPYE
January 8th, 2014, 01:13 PM
What's with Woodson's man crush on JR Smith??

GordonGecko
January 8th, 2014, 01:59 PM
Apparently JR untied the shoelaces of a Dallas player and was warned by the league and by Woodson.

Then last night, he does it again - how old is this guy?

EastMillinocket
January 8th, 2014, 02:06 PM
Like the broken bottle scam on the streets of NYC, the shoelace trick has withstood the test of time on the pro basketball courts.

The NBA no longer accepts players straight out of high school, so perhaps the shoelace trick will be on its way out soon? Then again, it's not like "student athletes" actually do any learning in college.

eddhead
January 8th, 2014, 02:16 PM
Clearly, he is unhinged.

The forst shoelace incident was written off to be a practical joke by Marion., but a second one? Add to that the Brandon Jennings reaction, the tweets about the Knicks being disloyal by cutting his brother, the 5 game suspension for violating the leagues drug policy ... ... that stuff is nuts, and cumlatively, it is the kind of thing that gets you fired.

He is not good enough to be that crazy.

He sounds borderline deranged.

EastMillinocket
January 8th, 2014, 02:23 PM
I heard that JR Smith is trying out for the Harlem Globetrotters and needs some good stuff for the audition tape.

Maybe time for the NBA to invest in velcro?

eddhead
January 9th, 2014, 12:34 PM
He is a goner. If they can't trade him, they may even drop him.

Thye guy is a cancer and a distraction they just don't nee.


Knicks gauging interest in J.R. Smith
By Ian Begley and Marc Stein
ESPN.com

While they acknowledge that a trade may be difficult to pull off, the New York Knicks (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ny/new-york-knicks) in recent days began exploring the potential market for guard J.R. Smith (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2444/jr-smith), ESPN.com has learned.

More from ESPN.comhttp://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/howard_johnette_m.jpgThe NBA's $50,000 fine for J.R. Smith hits the Knicks' guard in the only place he seems to care about -- his wallet, writes Johnette Howard. Story (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/10263740/nba-hurts-new-york-knicks-jr-smith-where-hurts)



Sources close to the situation said Wednesday that the organization has become increasingly frustrated with Smith's on- and off-the-court transgressions and may feel that a fresh start would be best for all parties.

Smith was fined $50,000 by the NBA on Wednesday for "recurring instances of unsportsmanlike conduct" following his shoelace stunts in the Knicks' past two games.

Wednesday's fine didn't necessarily push the Knicks over the top, but one source with knowledge of the team's thinking said the organization has become "fed up" with Smith's erratic behavior.

Coach Mike Woodson hinted at that frustration Wednesday when he called Smith's conduct "unacceptable" in an interview with ESPN New York 98.7 FM's "The Stephen A. Smith and Ryan Ruocco Show."



"I'm not happy about this, because he was warned, he comes back and he makes the same mistake, and it's not right," Woodson said. "It's just got to stop. I keep saying this every time something pops up, but it's got to stop."

The coach later added that Smith has been "unprofessional about how he's approached this whole thing. Something's gotta be done. It has to stop. I'll address it tomorrow when I see him, and then we'll go from there."

Smith took to Twitter on Wednesday, posting an apology:

Huge apologies to my team, to the league an most of all you the fans! #JRSmithSigningOff (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23JRSmithSigningOff&src=hash)
— JR Smith (@TheRealJRSmith) January 8, 2014 (https://twitter.com/TheRealJRSmith/statuses/421048820957716482)Smith can't be traded until Jan. 15 because the Knicks are over the salary cap and Smith signed for more than 120 percent of his previous salary. The Knicks, furthermore, privately acknowledge that it will be difficult in the current climate to trade Smith, who has two seasons left after this one on a three-year, $18 million contract.

The 28-year-old underwent arthroscopic surgery on his left knee in the offseason. Smith then missed training camp after surgery, with Woodson saying recently that the guard is still dealing with soreness in his knee.


The Knicks need help. We stepped up. Here's a list of possible trade targets.
Photo Gallery (http://espn.go.com/newyork/photos/gallery/_/id/9998695/possible-knicks-trade-targets) http://assets.espn.go.com/icons/photo.png Top 25 Knicks (http://espn.go.com/newyork/photos/gallery/_/id/8539075/image/1/the-25-greatest-new-york-knicks-25-greatest-knicks) http://assets.espn.go.com/icons/photo.png



Smith's scoring is down markedly from last season. He is shooting just 32.3 percent from the field and has averaged 11.3 points in 29 games. Last season, Smith won the NBA's Sixth Man Award after averaging 18.1 points and 5.3 rebounds in 80 games.

The reality, though, is that Smith's transgressions -- combined with his declining production -- figure to complicate any efforts to move him.
In addition to Wednesday's fine, Smith was suspended the first five games of the regular season without pay for violating the league's anti-drug policy. And in November, Smith was fined $25,000 for sending what the NBA deemed a "hostile" tweet to Detroit's Brandon Jennings (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3997/brandon-jennings) after Jennings had questioned the credentials of Smith's brother, Chris (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3493/chris-smith), a former Knicks guard.

EastMillinocket
January 9th, 2014, 12:50 PM
Maybe he can be traded to Rodman's traveling basketball circus.

eddhead
January 9th, 2014, 03:39 PM
You mean we get Charles Smith back again???? ;)

ZippyTheChimp
February 25th, 2014, 07:40 PM
The latest Knick Debacle. And it's the definition of a debacle.

Athletes who have to play in New York should take a mandatory training course on handgun possession. Call it Plaxico 101.

Felton, unlike Burress, may have one chance:
A legal defense that could work for Felton is that he did not possess this gun. In order to gain a conviction, prosecutors must establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Felton actually possessed the Belgian pistol. This point reveals a crucial difference in evidence between the incidents involving Burress and Felton. While Burress had no logical way of arguing he didn't possess a gun used to shoot himself, Felton's connections to the Belgian pistol are less obvious. As of now, the only reported link between Felton and this pistol is that his estranged wife handed the pistol over to law enforcement and claimed it belonged to Felton. If that remains the only link, watch for Felton to portray his estranged wife as unreliable and, given their pending divorced, biased. He may raise similar themes about his alleged girlfriend if she testifies against him.


Analyzing Raymond Felton's gun charges, future in NBA (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140225/raymond-felton-felony-weapons-charges-new-york-knicks/)

Whenever Plaxico & Guns comes up, it makes me LOL that he actually discharged the gun in his pants.

Worthy of Barney Fife.

ZippyTheChimp
February 25th, 2014, 07:43 PM
Paging Joe Tacopina.

EastMillinocket
February 25th, 2014, 08:29 PM
Babe, I'm sorry I cheated on you. I'm not Kobe and I can't get you a $4 million ring. I was going to get you some Belgian chocolates, but I couldn't find any, so here's a Belgian pistol.

GordonGecko
February 25th, 2014, 11:18 PM
Well as of right now, the only person involved with an illegal gun in NYC is the wife, with a precinct full of witnesses. Good luck proving Raymond possessed it in the city