View Full Version : Spanish Revolution. Puerta del Sol Square, Madrid.

May 18th, 2011, 04:43 PM
Spanish revolution: Thousands gather
in Madrid’s Puerta del Sol Square [video]

By Elizabeth Flock


People take part in a demonstration in Madrid Tuesday, May 17. (Arturo Rodriguez - AP) Some 10,000 protesters gathered in Madrid’s Puerta del Sol square Wednesday to demand jobs, economic equality, and “real democracy” in the fourth day (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/tens-of-thousands-march-in-spain-to-protest-against-austerity-measures-banks-politicians/2011/05/15/AF13OH4G_story.html) of protests that mimic the Middle East uprisings.

“La Puerta del Sol in Madrid is now the country’s Tahrir Square, and the Arab Spring has been joined by what is now bracing to become a long European Summer,” writes Pablo Ouziel in Political Affairs. (http://www.politicalaffairs.net/spain-s-tahrir-square/)

Spaniards are protesting ahead of the upcoming elections, when they will vote for new municipal councils and regional governments across the country in hopes of replacing a government they’ve largely been unhappy with.

Much of the movement has been coordinated by the youth organization Democracia Real Ya (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://democraciarealya.es/&ei=gfjTTa-DHoTc0QGoiYWJDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDemocracia%2BReal%2BYa%26hl%3Den%26cl ient%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DoU5%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divnsu) online, which has used the rallying cry: “We're not merchandise in the hands of bankers and politicians!”

Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's ruling Socialist Party said they were “alarmed” by the protesters, fearing them to be disaffected left-wing supporters who would abandon the party on election day.

Mariano Rajoy, leader of the conservative Popular Party, which is expected to make huge gains in the elections, said he understood the protesters' motives.

Watch a video shot of the of thousands of protesters in Madrid today by “eloyente” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2nmOQZEjw&feature=youtu.be) for periodismohumano.com: (http://periodismohumano.com/)



May 18th, 2011, 04:55 PM

May 18th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Spanish Embassy, London (UK)
Today, May 18th


As they say: " No hay pan para tanto chorizo" :rolleyes:

May 18th, 2011, 09:37 PM
Calalunya Square, Barcelone.
Tonight, May 18th



May 18th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Puerta del Sol Square, Madrid.
Yesterday, May 17th


May 18th, 2011, 09:49 PM

Looks like a new 'May of 69' in Europe...

May 18th, 2011, 09:58 PM
Manifesto of
¡ Democracia Real YA !


We are ordinary people. We are like you: People, who get up every morning to study, work or find a job, people who have family and friends. People, who work hard every day to provide a better future for those around us.

Some of us consider ourselves progressive, others conservative. Some of us are believers, some not. Some of us have clearly defined ideologies, others are apolitical, but we are all concerned and angry about the political, economic, and social outlook which we see around us: Corruption among politicians, businessmen, bankers, leaving us helpless, without a voice.

This situation has become normal, a daily suffering, without hope. But if we join forces, we can change it. It’s time to change things, time to build a better society together.

Therefore, we strongly argue that:

the priorities of any advanced society must be equality, progress, solidarity, freedom of culture, sustainability and development, welfare and people’s happiness.
these are inalienable truths that we should abide by in our society: The right to housing, employment, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development, and consumer rights for a healthy and happy life.
the current status of our government and economic system does not take care of these rights, and in many ways is an obstacle to human progress.
democracy belongs to the people (demos = people, krátos = government) which means that government is made of every one of us. However, in spain most of the political class does not even listen to us. Politicians should be bringing our voice to the institutions, facilitating the political participation of citizens through direct channels that provide the greatest benefit to the wider society, not to get rich and prosper at our expense, attending only to the dictatorship of major economic powers and holding them in power through a bipartidism headed by the immovable acronym pp & psoe.
lust for power and its accumulation in only a few; create inequality, tension and injustice, which leads to violence, which we reject. The obsolete and unnatural economic model fuels the social machinery in a growing spiral that consumes itself by enriching a few and sends into poverty the rest. Until the collapse.
the will and purpose of the current system is the accumulation of money, not regarding efficiency and the welfare of society. Wasting resources, destroying the planet, creating unemployment and unhappy consumers.
citizens are the gears of a machine designed to enrich a minority which does not regard our needs. We are anonymous, but without us none of this would exist, because we move the world.
if as a society we learn to not trust our future to an abstract economy, which never returns benefits for the most, we can eliminate the abuse that we are all suffering.
we need an ethical revolution. Instead of placing money above human beings, we shall put it back to our service. We are people, not products. I am not a product of what i buy, why i buy and who i buy from.
For all of the above, i am outraged.

I think i can change it.

I think i can help.

I know that together we can.i think i can help.

I know that together we can.


May 18th, 2011, 10:06 PM
Puerta del Sol Square, Madrid
1st day, May 16th


May 19th, 2011, 03:04 PM
This is hilarious. The workers protesting against the socialists.

May 19th, 2011, 07:55 PM
This is hilarious. The workers protesting against the socialists.

Maybe they're protesting against ZP (Spanish Primer Minister)...


http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/230599_116013678483619_115886905162963_144501_1084 556_n.jpg


May 21st, 2011, 07:30 AM
La Bastille, Paris
May 20th 2011


May 21st, 2011, 07:33 AM
Parasol Square, Seville
May 20th 2011


May 21st, 2011, 07:41 AM
Guatemala City, Guatemala
May 20th 2011


May 21st, 2011, 07:43 AM
Spanish Embassy, London
May 20th 2011


May 21st, 2011, 07:49 AM
Brighton, UK
May 20th 2011


May 21st, 2011, 07:55 AM
España Square, Majorca
May 20th 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:04 AM
Reflections on Spain Protests May 2011
What does it all mean?


May 21st, 2011, 08:12 AM
Puerta del Sol Square, Madrid
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:16 AM
El Pilar Square, Zaragoza
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:18 AM
Amsterdam, Holland
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:23 AM
Brussels, Belgium
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:28 AM
Fuente Dorada Square, Valladolid
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:41 AM
Spanish Embassy, Oslo. Norway
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:45 AM
Muntayeta Square, Alicante
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:50 AM
City Hall building, Valencia
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 08:54 AM
Plaza Porticada, Santander
May 20th, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 10:37 AM
Puerta del Sol Square, Madrid
Live Broadcast 24 hours


May 21st, 2011, 10:53 AM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)

Spaniards Take to Streets Before Vote

By RAPHAEL MINDER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/raphael_minder/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

MADRID — With elections set for Sunday in Spain (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/spain/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) in more than 8,000 municipalities and 13 of its 17 regions, thousands of people, most of them young, have taken to the streets in Madrid, Barcelona and other large cities this week, calling for an end to suspected longstanding corruption among established parties. Fueling the demonstrators’ anger is the perceived failure by politicians to alleviate the hardships imposed on a struggling population by a jobless rate of 21 percent.

At sit-ins, street protests and on social media networks, the protesters’ message is that of an alternative campaign that could eclipse that of the established parties and result in a decline in voter turnout on Sunday, from 63 percent four years ago.

Some of the youth groups have made the fight against corruption their battle cry, like NoLesVotes, or “Don’t vote for them,” whose manifesto starts with the warning that “corruption in Spain has reached alarming levels.” The group recently published a Web site map pinpointing localities where more than 100 politicians seeking election were also under judicial investigation.

Other protesters are fielding alternative candidates, like the Pirate Party in Catalonia, founded 18 months ago, which is hoping to win about 7,000 votes across Catalan municipalities. One of its candidates in Barcelona, the 27-year-old Francesc Parelleda, said political corruption was a consequence of a “political system in which there is simply zero transparency and democracy within the main parties.”

José M. de Areilza, dean of the IE Law School in Madrid, said, “I don’t think that political corruption is necessarily worse in Spain than in other European countries, but I do think that the economic crisis is now generating a lot more anger and resentment here toward politicians.”

On Sunday, Francisco Camps is expected to be re-elected as head of the regional government of Valencia, which includes the third-largest city in Spain and some of the most popular Spanish resorts.

By the end of the year, however, Mr. Camps is also likely to be in court facing bribery charges, as part of a vast corruption investigation, dubbed the Gürtel case, that has also targeted several other politicians from the main center-right political force, the Popular Party.

Mr. Camps was charged in February for allegedly receiving tailor-made suits in return for granting public contracts, with further possible financial irregularities still under investigation. Nine other politicians standing for the Popular Party on Sunday in Valencia are being investigated or have been charged with fraud. Mr. Camps and his fellow candidates deny any wrongdoing.

For now, the corruption allegations have not hindered Mr. Camps’s re-election bid, according to the latest opinion polls. Like Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister who is engulfed in scandal, Mr. Camps has portrayed himself as the victim of a witch hunt by political opponents, judges and left-leaning media. Asked in December to comment on some of the allegations, he said that “nobody should believe Soviet-style propaganda against everything that has been achieved in Valencia.”

In fact, “many people in Valencia now talk about the Berlusconization of our society,” said Ferrán Bono, a Socialist lawmaker who represents Valencia in the national Parliament in Madrid. “Some people have seen so many political scandals that they just treat them as banal, but I think many also genuinely believe the conspiracy theory that Camps has been so actively promoting.”

The Gürtel investigation, which also targets some Popular Party politicians in Madrid, involves more than €120 million, or about $170 million, of public funds misspent by politicians in return for alleged kickbacks, according to a summary of the charges presented by the prosecution this year. Its alleged ringleader, Francisco Correa, is in jail awaiting trial.

But corruption investigations have not spared other main Spanish political parties, starting with the governing Socialists of Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. Socialist politicians stand accused in several of the property-related fraud inquiries that have mushroomed amid a collapse in the Spanish construction sector. Since April, the Socialist party in Andalusia, the largest region in Spain, has also been shaken by an inquiry into whether party officials provided fictitious early-retirement packages to friends and family members.

Mr. de Areilza, the law school dean, said: “We have built a democracy with political parties somehow disconnected from society, who have accumulated a lot of internal powers and have not been regulated in very important areas like their financing — and unfortunately they are also the ones who are in charge of pushing through any reform of the system.”

Mr. Camps’s anticipated victory in Valencia is expected to be part of a countrywide sweep by the Popular Party at the expense of the governing Socialists, whose popularity has plummeted because of the economic crisis.

Whatever the outcome Sunday, Mr. Zapatero announced in April that he would not seek a third term in office, paving the way for the selection of a new Socialist leader ahead of the general election, expected in March 2012.

In their campaigns, many regional and municipal politicians sought to distance themselves from the policies of Mr. Zapatero’s central government in Madrid in order to bolster their own prospects. In the case of Mr. Camps in Valencia, “the message has been that everything that works in Valencia is his doing while everything that is wrong, like a jobless rate that is four percentage points above the national average, is the fault of Zapatero,” said Mr. Bono, the Socialist lawmaker.

The reverse, however, has not been true, with national party leaders careful not to antagonize powerful regional politicians who could influence their chances next March.

For much of last year, Mariano Rajoy, the Popular Party’s national leader, refused to confirm his support for Mr. Camps because of his ties to the Gürtel corruption scandal. On Tuesday, however, Mr. Rajoy went to Valencia to join Mr. Camps at the city bullring. “You are a great president,” Mr. Rajoy told him in front of a cheering audience. “The people vote for you because they love you.”


May 21st, 2011, 05:05 PM
Washington Square, NYC
May 21st, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 05:08 PM
Spire, Dublin. Ireland
May 21st, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 05:15 PM
Frankfurt, Germany
May 21st, 2011


May 21st, 2011, 05:17 PM
Berlin, Germany
May 21st, 2011


May 23rd, 2011, 09:10 AM
I'm sorry, but is this a thread or a blog?


May 23rd, 2011, 12:09 PM
We are trying to figure out what's mean the political ideas defended by these people. In Spain no one understands. In fact, in yesterday's Spanish local elections has been a high popular participation, against the request of the leaders of the Spanish Revolution movement that called for people to do not go to the polls. This morning, they have continued their camps in the streets of many cities in Spain and they say they will not be removed till coming weeks . It is assumed that the police have to intervene to dislodge them by force.

It is a social phenomenon of civil disobedience to the law and is surprising to people in Spain, because its popular support is minority in number of followers ... but has spread to many countries and cities quickly. When this movement will end the street fight? I don't know, because they live in a imaginary planet called "Utopia" and they aren't a real political party. They have broken electoral rules in the last days with several illegal meetings on the streets. For them, democracy = no laws and no limits.

This situation is irreal, but in Spain there are many irreal situations every day in the last times. For example, Spanish Prime Minister Rodríguez Zapatero (ZP) and his family during a visit to USA last year (2010).

No comments...


Image courtesy of http://jonkepa.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/zpaatero.jpg

May 23rd, 2011, 12:31 PM
Looks like The Addams Family

May 23rd, 2011, 12:46 PM

May 23rd, 2011, 03:59 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)

Spain’s Governing Party Suffers Heavy Losses

Emilio Morenatti/Associated Press
Thousands of protesters gathered Sunday for an eighth consecutive day in the Puerta del Sol in Madrid as well as the main squares in other cities to demand political reforms in Spain.

By RAPHAEL MINDER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/raphael_minder/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

MADRID — The governing Socialist Party suffered heavy losses on Sunday in regional and municipal elections, even as tens of thousands of Spaniards calling themselves the “indignant” said they would pursue their protests to force an overhaul of the country’s political system.

Conceding defeat on Sunday night, Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero said that his Socialist Party had been understandably punished by voters for overseeing an economic crisis that had left Spain (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/spain/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) with a 21 percent jobless rate, more than twice the European average.

“These results are very clearly related to the effects of the economic crisis that we have been suffering for almost three years,” Mr. Zapatero said in a televised address. “Almost two million jobs have been destroyed and I know that a lot of Spaniards are facing serious problems. Today, without a doubt, they have expressed their discomfort.”

Meanwhile, underscoring how they have unexpectedly seized the initiative from established political parties, trade unions and other institutions, thousands of protesters gathered Sunday for an eighth consecutive day in the Puerta del Sol in Madrid as well as the main squares in other cities.

The youth-led movement, the first to manifest in any meaningful way since austerity began to bite in Europe’s sovereign debt crisis, has caught Spain’s traditional politicians flat-footed. At the same time, some of the campaign’s participants have been struggling to come to terms with their own success and grappling with the need to give more coherence to their wide-ranging grievances in order to keep their campaign alive beyond the election.

The demonstrators, who insist that they have no party affiliation, want a more representative democratic system and are demanding an end to political corruption. Their anger toward established parties has been fueled by the debt crisis and the surge in joblessness, but their grievances also include a call for a cut in military spending, the closing of nuclear power plants and the end of some laws, like recent legislation aimed at punishing digital piracy.

The groups that have turned Madrid’s Puerta del Sol into the epicenter of the nationwide movement plan to remain there until at least next Sunday. The protests in Barcelona, the second-largest Spanish city, are expected to culminate in a major march on June 15, to end in front of the Catalan Parliament.

“If you had told me a few months ago that thousands of people would take to the streets to complain about our political system,” said one protester, María Subinas, “I would have found it hard to believe, because it looked like we were an apathetic generation that was incapable of responding to a crisis even when it was destroying our jobs like a tsunami.” Ms. Subinas, 33, who has been in Puerta del Sol since last Sunday, added, “The message has surely gone through to politicians that they can’t just keep ignoring our frustrations and pretend that nothing has changed.”

The Popular Party won 37.6 percent of the votes on Sunday, compared with 27.8 percent for the Socialists, according to preliminary results released at midnight with 98 percent of the votes counted. Despite popular discontent with established parties, turnout rose to 66 percent from 63 percent four years earlier.

Mr. Zapatero, who has been in office since 2004, announced in April that he would not seek a third term, and the extent of the Socialists’ loss suggests that, even with a new leader, the party will struggle to hold on to power in the general election, expected next March.

Among smaller parties to make notable gains on Sunday was Bildu, a Basque independence party, which won 1.4 percent of the national vote and could secure control of San Sebastián and some other Basque town halls. Bildu was allowed to take part in the election only after a court ruling, amid concerns over its suspected links to ETA, the violent separatist group.

The Socialists lost control in Barcelona and Seville, two of the nation’s largest cities.


May 23rd, 2011, 04:16 PM
http://media.ft.com/cms/6f68385c-882a-11da-a25e-0000779e2340.gif (http://www.ft.com/)
Euro contagion fears hit Spain and Italy


May 23rd, 2011, 04:32 PM
The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/home-page)

Vote Jars Spain's Ruling Socialists

Party Suffers Losses in Local Elections
Amid Widespread Protests Over Continued Economic Crisis

By JONATHAN HOUSE (http://online.wsj.com/search/term.html?KEYWORDS=JONATHAN+HOUSE&bylinesearch=true)

TOLEDO, Spain—Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero's Socialist Party suffered historic losses in Spanish municipal and regional elections on Sunday, as discontent with a dire economic situation boiled over into nationwide protests.


European Pressphoto Agency
Popular Party supporters celebrate early municipal and regional election results
in front of the party's headquarters in Madrid on Sunday.

With nearly all of the ballots tallied, the opposition Popular Party, led by Mariano Rajoy, had 37.55% of the municipal vote across the country, nearly 10 percentage points more than the Socialists, the largest difference between the two parties since the local elections of 1991. In addition, with more than 75% of the vote tallied, the PP had commanding leads in both Castilla-La Mancha and Extremadura, regions the Socialists have ruled for decades.

http://m.wsj.net/video/20110523/052311marketshubeuro/052311marketshubeuro_512x288.jpg (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576336831522885912.html?m od=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories#)
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576336831522885912.html?m od=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories#)

Spain's Socialist Party suffered historic losses in elections on Sunday, as discontent with a dire economic situation boiled over into nationwide protests. Stephen Bernard looks at the implications for that country's debt crisis.

"The PP has won the elections in Castilla-La Mancha," said Maria Dolores de Cospedal, the conservative party's candidate for regional president, told supporters gathered in Toledo, the capital of Castilla-La Mancha.

Sunday's vote in 13 out of Spain's 17 regions and in all of its more than 8,000 municipalities is seen as a warm-up for national elections Mr. Zapatero must call by March 2012.

At the Socialist Party's headquarters in Madrid, Mr. Zapatero acknowledged his party had "clearly lost" the elections and congratulated the PP on its gains. He told journalists the defeat was "very clearly related to the economic crisis."

Spain's Socialists Trounced

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-NZ784_0522sp_D_20110522194407.jpg (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576336831522885912.html?m od=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories#)

Paul White/Associated Press

More photos and interactive graphics (http://online.wsj.com/public/page/0_0_WP_2003.html)

Analysts have warned that a big reversal for the Socialists could undermine Mr. Zapatero's minority government at a time when it is trying to push through a sweeping program of economic overhauls and budget cuts.

Mr. Zapatero, however, ruled out early elections. He said his party will turn to its usual parliamentary allies for the support necessary "to carry out the economic reforms the country needs."

In the week leading up to the vote, pre-election jitters drove up Spain's risk premium, as measured by the spread of its 10-year government bond over the German benchmark, by around 0.2 percentage point, to 2.43 points.

In a note to investors Friday, Citigroup economists said "a political defeat for the Socialist Party would reinforce our doubts" about Spain's ability to achieve its "too optimistic" targets for budget-deficit reduction and economic growth.


Getty Images Demonstrators gather at sunset after another day of protests
at Sol Square on Saturday in Madrid.

Even worse, some local economists and business leaders forecast changes to regional and municipal governments could lead to the discovery of piles of undeclared debt, as happened in Catalonia. After moderate Catalan nationalists dislodged a Socialist government in the wealthy northeastern region in November, incoming officials said the local budget deficit was twice as big as previously thought.

Hidden-debt concerns played a central role in campaigning in regions like Castilla-La Mancha, where the PP and local business leaders said the region hasn't booked 90,000 unpaid invoices of around €1 billion ($1.42 billion). Ms. Cospedal, has pledged the first thing she will do if elected is commission an audit of Castilla-La Mancha's accounts.



In Madrid, youths continued to crowd the central Puerta de Sol Square as part of a weeklong movement that has brought out tens of thousands of protesters in several large Spanish cities. Exasperated by Spanish politicians' inability to find solutions to a deep economic crisis and an unemployment rate of more than 21%, they are asking for new aid for the unemployed, elimination of politicians' privileges and housing support for young people.

Still, the number of protesters isn't unusual by local standards, in a country where single-city rallies often attract thousands to protest against terrorism or in favor of international or social causes. And they don't seem to have attracted a big following in smaller cities.

"In Toledo, they haven't had an impact," said Nicolás Moragón, a 24-year-old student. "Their ideas are too idealistic."

http://m.wsj.net/video/20110522/052211reutersspain/052211reutersspain_512x288.jpg (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576336831522885912.html?m od=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories#)
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576336831522885912.html?m od=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories#)

Tens of thousands of people gather in Madrid's central Plaza del Sol on the seventh day of protests
against high unemployment and austerity measures. Video courtesy Reuters.

Spain's electoral commission had declared the gatherings illegal during the election weekend, though the government shied away from ordering police to disperse the large gatherings in cities like Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia.

The protests were expected to boost nonmainstream parties at Sunday's vote.
Outside a Madrid polling station, Natalia Molinos, 31, said she had voted for a party called Citizens for a Blank Vote. "I didn't want to vote for the PP or the Socialists," she said.

The protests didn't seem to have undermined voter turnout, which rose slightly compared with 2007 local elections.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576336831522885912.html?m od=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories

May 23rd, 2011, 05:09 PM
Los Indignados.

I like that.

May 24th, 2011, 07:58 AM
Their anger toward established parties has been fueled by the debt crisis and the surge in joblessness,


but their grievances also include a call for a cut in military spending,


the closing of nuclear power plants

A little harder to do, but understandable.

and the end of some laws, like recent legislation aimed at punishing digital piracy.

What??!? lol! OMG! I know that people do not like this, but, at least the way it is phrased here, objecting to punishments for stealing?

"I want to be able to download the latest R-Kelly single WITHOUT having to pay a fine because I did not pay for it!!!!"


May 24th, 2011, 09:43 AM
The left-wing groups in Spain are largely supported with money from actors, music singers, film directors ... so on. The support of so-called "artists" to the group of "the angry-los indignados" has a price to be paid in their claims.

Copyright in Spain are managed by a society called SGAE (Sociedad General de Autores y Editores), which many believe is the clearest example of "mafia" in Spain today. It is not uncommon for inspectors to creep into a wedding at a restaurant and report the couple to have music for dancing and not paying royalties to their society (SGAE). A barber in Seville was closed a few months ago because he claimed to have a battery powered radio in the saloon to listen music while working for the past 20 years: SGAE's inspectors put a financial penalty of such amount that he could not pay and went out of business. SGAE managed to collect royalties from any taxi driver in Madrid to have radios, CD or DVD-systems on cars, bringing the many taxi drivers have been removed and replaced by newspapers provided to passengers along the route.


In the other hand, maybe your post is a sort of hypocrisy.... because USA Government added to Spain in the "301 Special" Report in 2008...



Spain will be added to the Watch List in 2008. The United States is concerned by the Spanish
government’s inadequate efforts to address the growing problem of Internet piracy, described by
U.S. copyright industries as one of the worst in Europe. There is also a widespread
misperception in Spain that peer-to-peer file sharing is legal. While Spanish law enforcement
authorities have taken some positive measures against pirate Internet websites, prosecutors have
failed to pursue IPR cases, judges have failed to impose deterrent-level sentences against IPR
infringers, and right holders do not have access to important legal tools needed to bring
meaningful civil infringement suits. The United States will continue to work closely with Spain
to address these IPR enforcement issues during the next year.

May 24th, 2011, 09:48 AM
Looks like The Addams Family

The Addams Family & Mr.Bean in the White House... hahaha :D


May 24th, 2011, 10:38 AM
In the other hand, maybe your post is a sort of hypocrisy.... because USA Government added to Spain in the "301 Special" Report in 2008...

Look up the definition of Hypocracy.

1. I am not the US government.
2. Piracy is, as we define it, actually taking music and keeping a copy w/o paying for it.
3. The article I referred to in my quote does not describe the various permutations of abuse that might be vested on individuals for what they define as crimes under a similar set of legal statutes.
4. How is it hypocritical for the US to add Spain to the list of people that have a piracy problem, and laugh at the quote that people are complaining about the "piracy" laws being too strict? By the definition of Piracy as most in the industry sees it, if Spain has a bunch of websites, servers or other venues to distribute music w/o charging, then that is piracy and has little to do with fair use (such as radio broadcasts).

I think we have a problem with somantics here.....

May 24th, 2011, 07:25 PM
The left-wing groups in Spain are largely supported with money from actors, music singers, film directors ... so on. The support of so-called "artists" to the group of "the angry-los indignados" has a price to be paid in their claims.

Pedro Almodovar and Penelope Cruz are the Spain's answer to the Perons?

May 24th, 2011, 11:27 PM
It's not easy translate ideologies between Spanish and American model.

If you ask me what my ideology in the United States, I'd vote to the Democrats, but if you tell me what my ideology in Spain, then I'd vote to the Popular Party (moderate right wing). In Spain always win the political party that dominates the moderate voters (moderate left wing and moderate right wing).

The radical right wing are a minority today. Why ? Because radicals are include in the nationalist politic parties of Catalonia and Basque Country (CiU and PNV ). The radical right wing was finished in Spain when General Franco died. Franco's regime nostalgics are old people, therefore very little social and politically dangerous. Are groups of people who need a leader to symbolizing the traditional values ​​of Spain and this problem is solved with King Juan Carlos I. Our present King was appointed by Franco for when he died. Nobody ever voted that Spain was a republic or a monarchy in 1978, simply it was assumed by all because it was decided for Franco. What's ideology of King Juan Carlos I? Everybody know that King Juan Carlos is on moderate right wing and Sophia Queen is on traditional right wing (conservative).

Also today in Spain there are radical nationalist left wing politic parties as Bildu, that support the ideas of ETA terrorist group, or ERC in Catalonia or BNG in Galizia Community.

Popular Party includes inside itself different type of voters: moderate right wing (demochristians and liberals), the tradicional right wing or conservatives (bourgeoisie and businessmen) and radical right wing (nostalgic Franco Regimen).

In the other hand, the left wing includes inside itself: the socialists (PSOE), communists (IU) and radicals (anarchists and others). Socialist and Communist are the same today, there isn't differences, maybe the only one is because today Communist Party is more closer of modern ideas of Ecology in Europe than Socialist Party. Spanish communists are very anarchist and they support models of street fight similar to the Spanish Revolution.

If you ask me what is for me the ideology of "los indignados" group camped in the streets of Madrid, the answer is only one: anarchist/communist. They've requested to everyone for no vote to Popular Party (PP) and socialists (PSOE).

To explain the model in only 2 lines: in Spain there are 2 major political parties but majority group of voters are in the geometric center. The important thing is to dominate the center, not right wing or left wing. The problem is that when a society progresses and becomes more rich, then it is more conservative. That is the problem for left parties in Spain, because many times they are outside on the match.

What is the difference between moderate left and moderate right? For me is on religious belief sometimes. If a person is Catholic, like me, then stood as a Demochristian and opts for a moderate right wing option in Spain (Popular Party).

For example, the Gay Marriage Act. I respect the law because it is good and right. Homosexuals are normal people and I have many friends who are and I respect them and their sexual option. For me the only objection to the law is semantics. I do not like the word "marriage" because it is a religious sacrament. I'd prefer to be called the "legal unions." The rest of the law seems to me perfect, even the possibility that homosexuals can adopt children under 18 years.

The problem of the Socialists in Spain, as Spanish society is becoming more modern and conservative, to get more votes they have to capture between the radical left wing (communists, anarchists, ecologists and antisystem-anarchists). How? The only option is to pass laws utopian and radicals. Problem: then they lose votes on left moderate wing. When they lose the votes of the moderate left wing then they lose the elections. In addition, camped on the streets (los indignados) are communists, anarchists and antisystems and they do not want to vote because they don't want to support the Socialist Party after mismanagement in recent years. That is why the People's Party (right wing) has 2 million more votes than the Socialists in the last election: they lost the votes of the moderate left and the radical left did not vote.

For example, the Socialists in recent years have advocated closing the nuclear power plants and fill the country with wind turbines because they said it is a green energy, clean and sustainable. True, but now the electric bill in Spain is 4 times more expensive than in France, England or Germany. This economic factor means that companies are not competitive and have to close and go to other European countries to open their factories. It was a wrong policy decision and it has generated a lot of unemployment in Spain. This law likes the radical left but for moderate left wing is a mistake and now they prefer support to Popular Party.

Who's who?

1. Penelope Cruz: left moderate (Socialist Party)
2. Pedro Almodovar: socialist (Socialist Party).
3. Javier Bardem: communist (Communist Party)
4. Julio Iglesias: traditional right - conservative (Popular Party)
5. Pau Gasol: Catalonian nationalist on the right wing (CiU Party)
6. Rafa Nadal: moderate right (Popular Party)
7. Fernando Alonso: moderate left (Socialist Party)
8. Santiago Calatrava: moderate right (Popular Party)
9. Ricardo Bofill: Catalonian nationalist on the right wing (CiU)
10. Eduardo Chillida: Basque nationalist on the right wing (PNV)

May 25th, 2011, 07:40 AM

The end of peace and reflection actions in Spain by "los indignados". They have announced new politic actions more agressive and radical during next days in Spain. The protesters left their street-camp on Murcia city for a few hours yesterday. They've assaulted 7RM Tv Channel Headquarter in Murcia. Maybe they're now on the wrong way...


May 25th, 2011, 06:59 PM
Javier Bardem: communist (Communist Party)

^ He could be a Nazi and it's fine with me...

May 25th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Javier Bardem: communist (Communist Party)

^ He could be a Nazi and it's fine with me...

Javier Bardem is anti-american and pro-Castrista.
Americans don't know what he (and his family...) said in the past years about USA in Spain...

It's wonderful to see him in Hollywood... hahaha :D
He's a great actor !... hahaha :rolleyes: a communist&anti-american working in Hollywood ! ;)

His mother, Pilar Bardem, is one of the most famous supporter of PCE-IU (Communist Party) in Spain, sister of Spanish film-director Juan Antonio Bardem (historic membership of PCE-Spanish Communist Party) and defender in Spain of stalinist and soviet model during General Franco Regimen. Juan Antonio Bardem (Javier Bardem's uncle) and Pilar Bardem (Javier Bardem's mother) were on prison long time during Franco Regimen.

Forever his mother, Pilar Bardem, like to show off in Spain that they are Communists, not Socialists !

Many times Javier Bardem try to hide his communist past in Spain, because he prefer to look for a good bussines in Hollywood. Everybody remember in Spain in 2003 as active member on street demonstration, directed by Communist Party, against USA military intervention on Irak. During protests, american flag used to finish on fire while protesters shouted " Americans baby killers", "USA Imperialism", "Cuba Libre !",... so on


http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album_15marzo/imagenes/actores.jpg (http://actores.mforos.com/visit/?http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album_15marzo/album4.html)

Manifesto supporting to IU Party (Communists) for Spanish National Elections on 2004 signed by Javier Bardem and his mother Pilar Bardem in the official website of Spanish Communist Party (Izquierda Unida Party)


Pilar Bardem interviewed by Lasexta Tv Channel talks about her Communist ideology....


^^^ Fabri, mio caro amico... ;)

Una piccola collezione dello spagnolo e la politica...

IU (Izquierda Unida)------------------------------ Communist Party
PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español)---------- Socialist Party
PP (Partido Popular)------------------------------ Conservative Party




May 26th, 2011, 01:08 AM
I take it you think that the current Spanish Communist Party is evil incarnate?

Perhaps you'd feel different if the good Generalisimo had put your sweet arse in jail.

May 26th, 2011, 08:34 AM
Javier Bardem is a good actor, but he is a hypocrite. His uncle, the great Spanish film director Juan Antonio Bardem, was indeed a man committed to his ideas .... José Antonio Bardem was in jail several years for his radical communist ideas, but also worked and made many movies during the 60 and 70. Even won some prizes in Spain and the Venice Film Festival 1956.


Juan Antonio Bardem in 1966 (00:35)


Juan Antonio Bardem at Venice Film Festival on 1956

Bardem family does not interest to me because they were millionaires in the Franco's era. They were Communists, but they made dozens of films in those years and won a gold mountain of money during Franco's era. The Bardem family were in jail the first years of the Franco regime because they were too radical, but then dropped their speech and they lived very well in Spain. During the years of Franco's regime Communist supporters can be quiet and living well in Spain, only two things are required for this: they have killed anyone during the Civil War and do not belong to the Communist Party. People could be a communist and could recognize him in public, but the Communist and Socialist Party were banned.

In short, forever I was interested in the normal people .... like my father or my grandfather, not the Bardem family... because they always were hypocrites: they presumed to be communists, but living like millionaires in Spain in 1970 under protection General Franco.

My paternal grandfather was a carpenter, was killed by the Communists in 1936 during the Spanish Civil War. My father was born in 1921 and when that happened he was only 15. The Communists shoot to my grandfather because he was Catholic, despite being poor. Those murderers forced my father and my grandmother to witness the execution. Then they stole everything that was inside the house and burned the family house. To end the killing, took the body of my grandfather tied with a rope tied to a truck around the city.

Every day in Spain, in 1936, the communists killed hundreds of innocent people like my grandfather. After the Civil War touched them communists and socialists suffer the same consequences.

Was Franco a criminal? I think not, he only won a Civil War in Spain that began in 1934 when the Socialists did not admit that during the Second Republic won the election the Conservative Party. After this, Communists were imposed on the Socialists in the political left wing because they were more radical in their ideas and was in military support of the Soviet Union and Stalin.

The Spanish have always tried not to talk about the Civil War because there were many crimes in the 2 sides of the war. Who was to blame for the war? Who was the winner? Who was the loser? Was Franco worse person than the communist-socialist leaders ? Look at you, @lofter, about these questions today in Spain nobody knows the right answer yet, except the stupid American historians from the Universities of Columbia, Yale, Harvard... and their crap-book full of nonsenses...hahaha. The only certain answer is that the war was started, won and lost ... by Spain! It's that simple ...

With regard to the Franco regime. Do not forget you ever, though a military dictatorship, from 1960 onward modern Spain was a country open to the world. Places such as Benidorm, Torremolinos, Fuengirola, Marbella, La Manga, Mojacar, Torrevieja, Altea, Ibiza, Palma of Mallorca, Sitges, Salou, Menorca, Canary Islands, Toledo, Salamanca, Santiago de Compostela, Pamplona, ​​San Sebastian, Seville, Barcelona, Madrid ... so on, were very popular and each year attracted tens of millions of tourists. Spain in 1970 was the fourth country in the world in number of tourists after the United States, Italy and France. In 1975 there were about a million British pensioners living in Spain. Same thing with Norwegians, Swedes, Germans, Belgians and Dutch. Today, in 2011, are about 8 million foreign residents in Spain.

You (@lofter) are wrong about how it was Spain during the regime of General Franco. To understand this, you'd have to say that Spain in 1970 as Pinochet's Chile, but much more liberal politically. Pinochet was a radical compared with Franc. In Spain, after 1960, only had problems and went to jail who he was very radical on his political ideas and organized illegal activities... or was a membership of ETA terrorist group. Do not confuse you, @lofter, ... because you talk about what you does not know many times. Was General Franco a dictator? Yes, but it wasn't the devil that you imagine in your mind.

The choice of Spain in 1936 was a choice between Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union. If it had won the Civil War the Communists, then Spain would now be another Cuba. Fortunately General Franco won and today Spain is a free and democratic. Franco never served to Hitler in the Second World War. The Americans never understood what ideologically defended Franco,... until they understood what were the potential danger of Soviet communism on the World. The enemy of Franco were not Americans or British, were the Soviets.

Spanish people like to presume to be expelled from our country to Muslims, French (Napoleon) and Soviets (Stalin). Spain was the only Western country with a Soviet regime for 3 years. There were thousands of deaths and the terror was horrible.


Dear @ lofter1
I've never insulted to you in this forum during last 3 years,
I pray that we meet the standards of education and mutual respect in order to continue discussion.

May 26th, 2011, 12:04 PM
Didn't mean to insult you. Apology on that point.

Just meant to point out that old Franco was one nasty piece of work. I hear he's still dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESyTVnxxrPc).

May 26th, 2011, 12:18 PM
Javier Bardem is anti-american and pro-Castrista.
Americans don't know what he (and his family...) said in the past years about USA in Spain..It shouldn't matter what Americans think. It's none of our business.

In what way is he anti-American?

Cold War rhetoric about Cuba and such is old-hat.

May 27th, 2011, 10:39 AM
Didn't mean to insult you. Apology on that point.

Just meant to point out that old Franco was one nasty piece of work. I hear he's still dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESyTVnxxrPc).

The Spanish do not like to talk about our Civil War because it was a war of brother against brother. In Spain had two moderate (on left and right wing ) politic parties on 1936 (socialist-PSOE and conservative-CEDA), but eventually imposed radical wings within them (Communists and radical military) and Civil War began. Spanish all have relatives who were killed during the Civil War. Reconstruction of Spain in the 40's was very hard, because all the money of Spain the communist government of II Republic gives to Stalin to pay its military support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold) and because Spain was excluded from the Marshall Plan after World War II. After this, it came the Americans and British attempt to expel Spain from UN.

General Franco is dead, indeed and fortunately !. He was the last piece of a story that will never must be repeated in time in my nation. However, political change began in Spain with social change and the opening of Spain to the world in years 60 and 70. The decisive step was the visit of President Eisenhower in 1959 and the creation of the first American military bases in Spain.

To understand the political period of Franco's dictatorship is necessary to distinguish two periods: a) 1939-1960, Spain was a dictatorship radical, b) 1960-1978, Spain was a dictatorship moderate. The Spanish use a set of words to explain: "DICTA-DURA" (strong-Dictatorship) and "DICTA-BLANDA" (soft-Dictatorship)

To Spanish is very disgusting to see celebrities coming out assuming that his family was killed in retaliation during o after Civil War, because we all have people who were dead or in jail and were on one side or the other. There were crimes and murders for which they won and which they lost the Civil War. So many people feel disgust in Spain Bardem family, because for Spanish is an issue that should not talk or brag.

I had a grandfather killed by the communists because he was catholic, a uncle who spent 10 years in prison because he was a socialist in the 40s and another uncle who died at Stalingrad fighting against Soviets alongside Hitler's troops as memeber of the 'División Azul' because he was fascist. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division)

Who was right in the Civil War? For Spanish is an issue that we are not interested to know, what matters is that this does not repeat anymore.

May 27th, 2011, 11:20 AM
It shouldn't matter what Americans think. It's none of our business.

In what way is he anti-American?

Cold War rhetoric about Cuba and such is old-hat.

In Spain, after Franco's dictatorship, it became necessary to create an atmosphere of reconciliation to facilitate the democratic transition. Therefore, in these 30 years has imposed the idea that democratic progress must be made on the basis of moderate ideas left and right wing.

This is the main difference between America and Spain. Why? On domestic issues there are no major policy differences between the Socialists and the conservatives (economic, employment policy, public health, public education, universities, transportation, military spending bill and others like abortion act, gay marriage, so on ...)

Where is the difference between left and right wing in Spain? Foreign policy. In the United States is reversed, foreign policy is almost unchanged regardless of whether Democrats or Republicans govern.

The foreign policy issues in Spain are much more radical. In 2003, the Conservative Party (Popular Party) lost the elections in Spain because former Spanish President José María Aznar supported the American invasion of Iraq. It was the only reason to explain because they lost the power, because in 2003 economic situation was all right in Spain.

Conservatives in Spain are pro-American and, in the other hand, socialists are anti-american. If we go to the extreme political left wing, Spanish Communists Party (Izquierda Unida Party), then we do not talk about opposition to the United States, maybe should be better talk about hate against Americans.

Spanish Communists believe that US Governments have been supporting Franco after 1959. At this time, Spanish Communist leaders were living in Union Soviet for long time and they are stalinist radical ideology. USA and Franco were the enemy. It's easy to understand to everybody.

Today, Spanish Communists (as Javier Bardem actor) are attacking in Spain the US policies about Cuba, Venezuela, Western Sahara, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestinians, North Korea, US Military bases in Spain, NATO activity, Nuclear Weapons, Ben Laden murder, discrimination laws against Hispanics in USA... so on.

May 27th, 2011, 11:44 AM
Who was right in the Civil War? For Spanish is an issue that we are not interested to know, what matters is that this does not repeat anymore.

If the past is not examined, painful as it may be, then how can future generations be expected to understand those things that should not be repeated?

May 27th, 2011, 12:32 PM
Really Franco is dead ? Are you sure @lofter ? hahaha
Today, Barcelone University. Police clears to 'Democracia Real YA' protesters.
No comments, but often Franco's police was more friendly with communist... hahaha


May 27th, 2011, 12:41 PM
If the past is not examined, painful as it may be, then how can future generations be expected to understand those things that should not be repeated?

In that war there was a strong component of foreign elements. It was the prelude to World War II. It was the crash between Stalinist communism and fascism of Hitler and Mussolini. The victims all know: the Spanish people.

Therefore, Spanish people used to blame about Civil War to foreign interference in Spain. It is not easy for this to happen again, fortunately.

May 27th, 2011, 12:47 PM
It is easy to blame foreign influence as the root of all the problems a nation endures.

We do it ourselves with Immigration. SOmehow we scream and yell over the Mexicans jumping the border and cry for higher fences, but are not hesitant at all to save $10 on a housekeeping visit, lawn care appointment, or 99 cent lettuce at the grocery store.

It is important that even if foreign influence does indeed play a role in a nations development, that they themselves take some responsibility in what has happened in the past to make sure that it does not happen again.

Short of an invasion, a foreign nation should not be able to subjugate and crush a country without a portion of that country falling in ironic lock-step with them for whatever reason.

I am not blaiming Spain for what happened, but just warning that a reluctance to take responsibility and a propensity to point fingers is a sure sign that history will continue on its regular cycles.

May 27th, 2011, 02:31 PM
Spain was an empire until 1898, when we lost Cuba and Philippines against USA. The first decades of the twentieth century was a time when Spanish people were looking for a new identity as a nation after our past as Spanish Empire.

National Socialist ideas of Hitler and Stalin's Communist Revolution seemed to many people as new ideas to come back to the great empires on past times. New empires based on ideology, not in the territories dominated.

Utopias and nonsense ideas that finally brought a Civil War of brother against brothers.

May 27th, 2011, 06:58 PM
What a shame !
Plaza Catalunya (Barcelone)
Police clashes with protesters as in Franco's times !


May 27th, 2011, 07:10 PM
... and finally protesters won to Police !


June 3rd, 2011, 04:27 PM
Dear @doctor !
It was General Franco a dictator for you ? yes or not ?
It was General Franco a genocide for you ? yes or not ?
i would like know your opinion :cool:

June 3rd, 2011, 04:36 PM
Dear @doctor !
It was General Franco a dictator for you ? yes or not ?
It was General Franco a genocide for you ? yes or not ?
i would like know your opinion :cool:

Interesting questions, from a newbie who gets straight to the point.

Welcome aboard, Murcianico-Kid!

June 3rd, 2011, 07:23 PM
The answers are clear on History, dear @Mu-Kid
General Franco was a genocide criminal and a military dictator supported after 1959 by US Governments.

However, all issues can be discussed in history. The legal Libya's Government is chaired by Gaddafi and his political opponents are 'rebels'. Is not the same be 'legal' representative of the country, ... to be also 'legitimate'. Gaddafi is not a legitimate leader of Libya because he kills the citizens of his nation. The same was happening in Iraq with President Saddam Hussein and his genocide of the Kurds. What happened in Spain during the Second Republic and the killings and genocide that left governments tolerated and not persecuted? It was legitimate government which allowed for the murdered priests, nuns, people of the opposite ideology? The Spanish Civil War began a few days after it was assassinated the leader of the Conservative Party (Calvo Sotelo) at his home in Madrid by socialists and communists militants. That was an act totally unpunished and that leftist governments did not pursue to stop the perpetrators of the crime. Were thousands of conservatives militants killed by socialists and communists between 1934 and 1936. Spain was a continuing genocide for political and religious in those years. Can you justify starting a Civil War in these previous genocides? I do not know because I am not judge nor a historian.

There was genocide on both sides (left and right wing) during the Civil War. Genocide was on the political left wing before the war (only killed people on the political right wing).Genocide was on the right wing after the Civil War (only murdered people from the political left wing). Explain what was the Spanish Civil War and how were the genocide on both sides is easy, just enough to read Ernest Hemingway and his masterful book 'For Whom the Bell Tolls'. The Civil War was a genocide of brothers against brothers without winners or losers in it. All Spanish lost and nobody won anything.

It would be easy to talk about the genocide of the Guadalajara prison (committed by the political left wing) or the genocide of the Badajoz bullring (committed by the political right wing) It was General Franco a genocide? Absolutely, just as General Mola or General Muñoz Grandes ... but also there were genocidal leaders on the political left wing like President Negrin, La Pasionaria or Santiago Carrillo.

The best is forgive and forget

June 3rd, 2011, 08:07 PM
The answers are clear on History, dear @Mu-Kid
General Franco was a genocide criminal and a military dictator supported after 1959 by US Governments.

Franco was a dictator: but "at least" he was a good christian and thus did not believed that he alone was the 'ultimate power and irrefutable leader of men'.

Fidel Castro, Hitler, Stalin and other 'Fascists Types' consider themselves living gods on earth, they are egoists and often completely delusional - despite whatever proud convictions they might hold that they are doing good.

So let's make a distinction between BAD and More-Bad here.

Dictators, of any variety, are a bad thing: but the ruler who 'truly' believes that their is nothing greater than himself is a very, very bad thing.

With Franco, there was always hope; with Castro and his ilk, there was never hope.

June 3rd, 2011, 08:58 PM
Less bad because God forgives them? Or gives them points for being on his team? Or because the Less Bad instilled HOPE in those they maybe would kill?

Maybe the second installment of this story will clear things up. :confused:

June 3rd, 2011, 10:01 PM
Less bad because God forgives them? Or gives them points for being on his team?

Why confused: less bad - because he "held to a higher power" than himself.

So this is not really a 'story' per se, just a personal observation that Franco was distinctly different this in one 'particular' regard form the other garden variety despots: Hitler, Castro, Stalin, - all of whom did not express any particular 'faith' other than their own 'absolutist' convictions.

Less bad, being that Franco proselytized his Christian beliefs, that just was not the case at all with most of those other 'fascist types' I mentioned: each of those men clearly saw themselves as the only omnipotent force on earth - and unlike Franco, they did not in the least defer to a "higher power" than themselves.

So, my best answer to your question is that Franco was less bad because of this 'particular distinction'; that he was not one of those 'fascists' that "considered themselves the equivalent of a living god".

Also, this was pretty clear in my first statement, that's why it is underlined: but I will play along - maybe your just playing the "Devils" advocate. (LOL)

June 3rd, 2011, 10:08 PM
The distinction is lost on me. Perhaps it's clearer to the hopeful bunch who Franco chose not to kill.

June 3rd, 2011, 10:15 PM
The distinction is lost on me.

Do you not understand the 'distinction' between a man who views 'himself' as the "final and absolute power" as opposed to a man who "acknowledges a 'higher power' or 'higher force' or 'higher authority' than himself.

That was Stalin, Hitler, Castro, ect.......... not Franco.

What exactly about that particular 'distinction' is "lost on you": all those people "he killed", or all those Jews he SAVED is beside the point.

p.s. I will pic this subject up tomorrow - interested in hearing your answer.

June 3rd, 2011, 10:55 PM
God could care less what the man thinks he thinks. His so-called faith is worthless in such a situation.

June 4th, 2011, 09:32 AM
......... His so-called faith is worthless in such a situation.

Yes, but the despot who 'self-identifies' as a Man-of-God as Franco did - unlike Mao, Hitler, ect - can be said to be a 'less-bad' tyrant because he 'offers hope' in a way the others do not - there is at least something 'external' to the MAN himself.

So, his faith is not entirely "worthless" to those he oppresses in one particular regard; with Franco there was at least hope.

We have the curious case of TWO types of TYRANTS: Franco and 'all/most of the others' who see 'themselves' as masters of the universe.

This is just something I just thought of when one of the posters asked the question about Franco being a Fascist, Yes or NO, and the answer is an obvious yes: but there is a more interesting 'distinction' therein - so I made the comment. I thought it was an interesting point to raise: but did not think it would raise any discussion - but I willing to entertain the subject as I find this distinction about Franco to be quite 'important' for people to understand.

This is not an instance where a distinction is being made where there is no 'actual' difference. The difference is profound, and it is well worth to flesh-out exactly what that difference is, and why one type offers HOPE and the other does not; Franco was quite unique among the other garden variety despots.

June 4th, 2011, 12:49 PM
The distinction is lost on me. Perhaps it's clearer to the hopeful bunch who Franco chose not to kill.

"An authoritarian regime, but not totalitarian..."

That is how Luis Suarez defines Franco in the Spanish Biographical Dictionary published by the Spanish Royal Academy of History. Definition that has earned him being taunted steely. However, this is a dilemma that historians recognize very complex and has generated a wide and substantial debate among them.

Alvaro Soto, professor of contemporary history at the Autonomous University of Madrid, believes that "it is an endless circular debate." A controversy that has involved many players and intellectual history since the Civil War itself. Soto, an expert Franco, believes there is another adjective that characterizes better than any other to the Leader, "was, above all, a survivor who adapted his system to changing international circumstances to ensure its continuity."

After the victory in the Spanish Civil War, Franco went for a totalitarian political project, inspired by the Axis powers and advised by his sister's husband and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ramón Serrano Suñer. So perceived, for example, almost imperial pomp surrounding the head of state or the law in 1939 gave him "the supreme power to issue general rules of law 'and' permanent government functions." That first Franco embarked on a massive mobilization of the population.

Franco's regime, how totalitarian or authoritarian system?

In 1942 everything changed. Germany and Italy, with whom Franco had flirted, they began to suffer severe setbacks in the war. And in Spain, as deteriorated the economic and administrative situation, began to be apparent discomfort for hegemony in the scheme Falangist some sectors of the Church, the military and royalist circles who still believed in the possibility of the Crown, the person of Don Juan de Borbón (King Juan Carlos' father).

Franco, the "Survivor" spoken Soto, launched his political game working to transform the appearance of the scheme and ensure its survival. It is now that Serrano Suñer was ousted and turned totalitarian solution to the authoritarian.

It is perhaps this shift in the regime, described by historians as Henry Moradiellos - one now suggested by the critic Paul Preston for having made the controversial review of Franco - which have hampered the definition of Franco. Because, really, there have been many and varied labels historiography has hung so long a period, complex and changing as the Franco dictatorship.

"Bonapartism Catholic"

Juan José Linz, a professor at Yale University, included it in his taxonomy of "authoritarian regime". Later, Salvador Giner likened the Spain of General Franco to Salazar's Portugal and Greece of the Colonels, including these three examples in the category of "contemporary despotism". With additional grudge, Miguel Oltra called the scheme under the extravagant terms of "Bonapartism Catholic" or "fascism friars', referring to the legitimating role that initially played the Catholic Church regarding the "New State".This completes countless other nicknames as "constitutional dictatorship and development " by Fernandez Carvajal, "clerical fascist dictatorship" by Hills; "custom solid organizational structure" by Zafra, "ideological dictatorship" by Burdeau and " National Catholicism" by Lopez Aranguren.

The academic debate took flight after the dictator's death from the publication of a work of Linz, "An interpretation of authoritarian regimes: the case of Spain". Since its publication, researchers from different trends were lining up as supporters of the Franco qualify as totalitarian or authoritarian. What almost no one ever doubted that General Franco was a dictatorship. There were exceptions, such as Luis Suarez, the extensive character biography published in 1984 and said that "Franco was never chairman or dictator (...) acted without title of king the duties of a monarch."

According to Linz, the Franco had all the characteristics attributed to the authoritarian regimes: a limited pluralism, the absence of a developed ideology and promoting more or less covert, apathy of the population. In these regimes are not frequent the massive samples of accession to the leader, but a passive tolerance of it.

Marxist obsessions

Linz then suffered bitter attacks. Marxist historians as Manuel Tuñón de Lara was accused him of trying to covertly rehabilitation of Franco and Ignacio Sotelo said without hesitation that Linz's thesis was rather "the Franco regime in sociology". Only time and the advancement of research quieted the controversy and today most authors accept as a theoretical model fit Linz and Franco's Spain in the model of authoritarian dictatorships, but not totalitarian, at least from of the Axis defeat in World War II. Anyway, this issue seems impossible to settle definitely in historiography and in the general public. Marx said that "the tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living".

June 6th, 2011, 08:16 AM
Am I 'missing' something with all these 'quotes' being used to 'explain' someones 'point of view'?

...or is it just 'me'?

June 6th, 2011, 05:55 PM
A group of 'indignant', members of the colective 'DEMOCRACIA REAL YA', this morning held a protest at a Carrefour center in Murcia city. The group of 'indignant' filled dozens of shopping carts that refused to pay, to ask the management that donate to needy families. Some members of the police exploited the situation to intimidate and threaten journalists VMPress, trying to prevent journalists could not record the protest action.