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ZippyTheChimp
July 22nd, 2011, 04:17 PM
Oslo Explosion: 7 Dead as Pair of Blasts Rock Norway Government Buildings

By BRIAN ROSS (@brianross) , RICHARD ESPOSITO, LEE FERRAN and MARK SCHONE
July 22, 2011

At least seven people were killed in a pair of explosions apparently targeting Norway's government buildings in Oslo, police said today.

The tangled wreckage of a vehicle was seen near the Norwegian government building that was targeted in the blast, officials said. It was not clear if the car was a bomb vehicle or near the site of a blast. At least one explosion was the result of a massive vehicle bomb, U.S. government sources on the scene said.

Hours after the blasts, several media outlets reported shots were fired at a youth meeting on an island outside of Oslo. One man was arrested and police said at least 10 people were killed in that attack, though an eye witness reported seeing more than 20 bodies. Acting police chief Sveinung Sponheim told a Norwegian newspaper the man in custody is linked to both attacks.

Norway's prime minister, Jen Stoltenberg, who has an office in a building hit by the blast, was uninjured and said in a statement the blast was "severe" and all available resources were being put into the rescue effort.

President Obama said the incident was "a reminder that the entire international community has a stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring."

Pictures, posted on Twitter, show several buildings with windows blown out. Multiple tweets described people bleeding in the streets.

"It felt very big. It shook the whole building," Norwegian government official Anders Lande said of one explosion. "There was lots of glass. As I was evacuated, I saw several people injured."

U.S. ambassador to Norway, Barry White, said the United States "condemns these despicable acts of terrorism." The American ambassador said the attack will serve as a kind of wake-up call to Norwegians who may have thought they were safe from terrorism.

"I think what it's going to do, like 9/11 did in the United States, is make people more aware of the possibility of a terrorist attack," he said.

White said all US embassy staff were safe and accounted for.

A U.S. counter-terrorism official told ABC News there is no indication yet of motive or suspects. Intelligence sources are examining both Ansar al-Islam and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula for possible links to the attack.

Earlier this month, a Norwegian prosecutor filed terrorism charges against an Iraqi-born cleric who had allegedly threatened the lives of Norwegian politicians. Mullah Krekar, the founder of the Kurdish Islamist group Ansar al-Islam, said in a news conference in 2010 that if he was deported from Norway he would be killed and, therefore, Norwegian politicians deserved the same fate, according to an AP report. The Norwegian government had considered deporting Krekar because he was seen as a national security threat.

Prior to the Iraq War, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell said Ansar al-Islam was the "sinister nexus between Iraq and the al Qaeda terrorist network."

In July 2010, Norway arrested two alleged al Qaeda operatives who were allegedly plotting attacks similar to the attack planned by Najibullah Zazi on the New York City subway system. A third Norwegian resident was arrested in Germany in connection with the same alleged plot.

In 2006, Norwegian authorities held three men linked to an alleged plot to attack the U.S. and Israeli embassies in Oslo. During the same year, two Norwegian publications reprinted a cartoon lampooning the prophet Mohammed that had original appeared in a Danish newspaper, leading to threats against Norway.

Back in 2003, al Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahiri, now the group's global leader, issued a threat against Norway because of its military role in Iraq. "O Muslims, take matters firmly against the embassies of America, England, Australia, and Norway and their interests, companies, and employees. … Do not allow the Americans, the British, the Australians, the Norwegians, and the other crusaders who killed your brothers in Iraq to live in your countries, enjoy their resources, and wreak havoc on them."

The Taliban has also issued threats against all NATO countries.

In 2009, the U.S. State Department said in a report that Norwegian authorities believed the probability of a terror attack there to be "low" and the public believe Norway "was not in danger of attack."

ABC News' Matthew Mosk, Matthew Cole, Jim Sciutto, Martha Raddatz and Kirit Radia contributed to this report.

ZippyTheChimp
July 22nd, 2011, 04:25 PM
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ZippyTheChimp
July 22nd, 2011, 04:35 PM
Ten Dead At Norway Youth Camp After Gunman Opens Fire

By MARK SCHONE and JOSH HASKELL
July 22, 2011

A gunman dressed as a policeman opened fire at a summer youth camp on a Norwegian island near Oslo, according to media reports. A witness told Norwegian television of seeing 20 bodies on the shoreline of the island of Utoya, but a police spokesperson said ten people are confirmed dead.

The shooting at a camp run by the Labour Party, the political party of Norwegian prime minister Jens Stoltenberg, occurred just hours after explosions ripped through a government building holding Stoltenberg's office in the capital city of Oslo, killing seven and injuring more than a dozen.

A suspect is under arrest, and police say they believe that he is also linked to the explosion in Oslo.

Norwegian media reports say that the man arrested is of Nordic appearance. A local police spokesman confirmed to al Jazeera that the suspect is in custody, and that he had been dressed as a police officer and had said he was at the camp to provide security.

Twenty ambulances and four ambulances were dispatched to the island to pick up the wounded. Some of the campers at the island jumped into the water to attempt to swim to safety.

Stoltenberg was uninjured in the Oslo bombing. He was scheduled to visit the youth camp tomorrow.

More than 500 people were attending the camp, and most campers were teenagers.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/ap_utoya_norway_shooting_jrs_110722_wg.jpg
Utoya Island

Ninjahedge
July 22nd, 2011, 04:42 PM
BBC live update page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705

Ninjahedge
July 22nd, 2011, 04:48 PM
Prior to the Iraq War, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell said Ansar al-Islam was the "sinister nexus between Iraq and the al Qaeda terrorist network."

Is that even pertinent?

ZippyTheChimp
July 23rd, 2011, 01:17 AM
July 22, 2011


At Least 80 Are Dead in Norway Shooting

By ELISA MALA and J. DAVID GOODMAN

OSLO — A lone political extremist bombed the government center here on Friday, killing 7 people, the police said, before heading to an island summer camp for young members of the governing Labor Party and killing at least 80 people.

The police arrested a 32-year-old Norwegian man in connection with both attacks, the deadliest on Norwegian soil since World War II.

The explosions in Oslo, from one or more bombs, turned the tidy Scandinavian capital into a scene reminiscent of terrorist attacks in Baghdad or Oklahoma City, panicking people and blowing out windows of several government buildings, including one housing the office of the Norwegian prime minister, Jens Stoltenberg, who was unharmed.

The state television broadcaster, citing the police, said seven people had been killed and at least 15 wounded in the explosions, which they said appeared to be an act of domestic terrorism.

Even as the police locked down a large area of the city after the blasts, the suspect, dressed as a police officer, entered the youth camp on the island of Utoya, about 19 miles northwest of Oslo, a Norwegian security official said, and opened fire. “He said it was a routine check in connection with the terror attack in Oslo,” one witness told VG Nett, the Web site of a national newspaper.

Of the at least 80 people killed on the island, some were as young as 16, the police said on national television early Saturday.

Terrified youths jumped into the water to escape. “Kids have started to swim in a panic, and Utoya is far from the mainland,” said Bjorn Jarle Roberg-Larsen, a Labor Party member who spoke by phone with teenagers on the island, which has no bridge to the mainland. “Others are hiding. Those I spoke with don’t want to talk more. They’re scared to death.”

Many could not flee in time.

“He first shot people on the island,” a 15-year-old camper named Elise told The Associated Press. “Afterward he started shooting people in the water.”

Most of the campers were teenagers but there were also adults on the island, who may have been among the victims.

After the shooting the police seized a 32-year-old Norwegian man on the island, according to the police and Justice Minister Knut Storberget. He was later identified as Anders Behring Breivik and characterized by officials as a right-wing extremist, citing previous writings including on his Facebook page.

The acting police chief, Sveinung Sponheim, said the suspect’s Internet postings “suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views, but if that was a motivation for the actual act remains to be seen.”

He said the suspect had also been seen in Oslo before the explosions. The police and other authorities declined to say what the suspect’s motivations might have been, but many speculated that the target was Mr. Stoltenberg’s liberal government.

“The police have every reason to believe there is a connection between the explosions and what happened at Utoya,” the police said. They said they later recovered explosives on the island.

Mr. Breivik had registered a farm-related business in Rena, in eastern Norway, which the authorities said allowed him to order a large quantity of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, an ingredient that can be used to make explosives. Authorities were investigating whether the chemical may have been used in the bombing.

A Facebook page matching his name and the photo given out by the police was set up just a few days ago. It listed his religion as Christian, politics as conservative. It said he enjoys hunting, the video games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and books including Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and George Orwell’s “1984.”

There was also a Twitter account apparently belonging to Mr. Breivik. It had one item, posted last Sunday: “One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests.”

As the investigations continued, the police asked people to leave the center of Oslo, stay indoors and limit their cellphone use. They also said they would initiate border checks.

The attacks bewildered a nation better known for its active diplomacy and peacekeeping missions than as a target for extremists.

In Oslo, office workers and civil servants said that at least two blasts, which ripped through the cluster of modern office buildings around the central Einar Gerhardsen plaza, echoed across the city in quick succession around 3:20 p.m. local time. Giant clouds of light-colored smoke rose hundreds of feet as a fire burned in one of the damaged structures, a six-story office building that houses the Oil Ministry.

The force of the explosions blew out nearly every window in the 17-story office building across the street from the Oil Ministry, and the streets on each side were strewn with glass and debris. The police combed through the debris in search of clues.

Mr. Stoltenberg’s office is on the 16th floor in a towering rectangular block whose facade and lower floors were damaged. The Justice Ministry also has its offices in the building.

Norwegian authorities said they believed that a number of tourists were in the central district at the time of the explosion, and that the toll would surely have been higher if not for the fact that many Norwegians were on vacation and many more had left their offices early for the weekend.

“Luckily, it’s very empty,” said Stale Sandberg, who works in a government agency a few blocks down the street from the prime minister’s office.

After the explosions, the city filled with an unfamiliar sense of vulnerability. “We heard two loud bangs and then we saw this yellow smoke coming from the government buildings,” said Jeppe Bucher, 18, who works on a ferry boat less than a mile from the bomb site. “There was construction around there, so we thought it was a building being torn down.”

He added, “Of course I’m scared, because Norway is such a neutral country.”

American counterterrorism officials cautioned that Norway’s own homegrown extremists, with unknown grievances, could be responsible for the attacks.

Initial reports focused on the possibility of Islamic militants, in particular Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or Helpers of the Global Jihad, cited by some analysts as claiming responsibility for the attacks. American officials said the group was previously unknown and might not even exist.

There was ample reason for concern that terrorists might be responsible. In 2004 and again in 2008, the No. 2 leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahri, who took over after the death of Osama bin Laden, threatened Norway because of its support of the American-led NATO military operation in Afghanistan.

Norway has about 550 soldiers and three medevac helicopters in northern Afghanistan, a Norwegian defense official said. The government has indicated that it will continue to support the operations as long as the alliance needs partners on the ground.

Terrorism specialists said that even if the authorities ultimately ruled out Islamic terrorism as the cause of Friday’s assaults, other kinds of groups or individuals were mimicking Al Qaeda’s brutality and multiple attacks.

“If it does turn out to be someone with more political motivations, it shows these groups are learning from what they see from Al Qaeda,” said Brian Fishman, a counterterrorism researcher at the New America Foundation in Washington. “One lesson I take away from this is that attacks, especially in the West, are going to move to automatic weapons.”

Muslim leaders in Norway swiftly condemned the attacks. “This is our homeland, this is my homeland,” said Mehtab Afsar, secretary general of the Islamic Council of Norway. “I condemn these attacks, and the Islamic Council of Norway condemns these attacks, whoever is behind them.”

Elisa Mala reported from Oslo, and J. David Goodman from New York. Reporting was contributed by Souad Mekhennet, Ravi Somaiya and Matthew Saltmarsh from London; Katrin Bennhold from Paris; and Eric Schmitt from Washington.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/23/world/23oslo_suspect/23oslo_suspect-popup.jpg
The suspect, Anders Behring Breivik


© 2011 The New York Times Company





Gunman's background puzzles police in Norway

By KARL RITTER, Associated Press

STOCKHOLM (AP) — The 32-year-old suspected of massacring at least 80 young people at a summer camp and setting off a bomb in downtown Oslo that killed at least seven is a mystery to investigators: a right-winger with anti-Muslim views but no known links to hardcore extremists.

"He just came out of nowhere," a police official told The Associated Press.

Public broadcaster NRK and several other Norwegian media identified the suspected attacker as Anders Behring Breivik, a blond and blue-eyed Norwegian who expressed right-wing and anti-Muslim views on the Internet.

Norwegian news agency NTB said Breivik legally owned several firearms and belonged to a gun club. He ran an agricultural firm growing vegetables, an enterprise that could have helped him secure large amounts of fertilizer, a potential ingredient in bombs.

But he didn't belong to any known factions in Norway's small and splintered extreme right movement, and had no criminal record except for some minor offenses, the police official told AP.

"He hasn't been on our radar, which he would have been if was active in the neo-Nazi groups in Norway," he said. "But he still could be inspired by their ideology."

He spoke on condition of anonymity because those details had not been officially released by police. He declined to name the suspect.

Neo-Nazi groups carried out a series of murders and robberies in Scandinavia in the 1990s but have since kept a low profile.

"They have a lack of leadership. We have pretty much control of those groups," the police official said.

Breivik's registered address is at a four-story apartment building in western Oslo. A police car was parked outside the brick building early Saturday, with officers protecting the entrance.

National police chief Sveinung Sponheim told public broadcaster NRK that the gunman's Internet postings "suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views, but whether that was a motivation for the actual act remains to be seen."

A Facebook page under Breivik's name was taken down late Friday. A Twitter account under his name had only one Tweet, on July 17, loosely citing English philosopher John Stuart Mill: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

Police where interrogating the man, first at the scene of the shooting, and later at a police station in Oslo.

"It's strange that he didn't kill himself, like the guys that have carried out school shootings," the police official told AP. "It's a good thing that he didn't because then we might get some answers pointing out his motivation."

He said the attacks appeared to be the work of a lone madman, without links to any international terrorist networks. The attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center," he said referring to the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City by domestic terrorists.

Investigators said the Norwegian carried out both attacks — the blast at the prime minister's office in Oslo and the shooting spree at the left-wing Labor Party's youth camp — but didn't rule out that others were involved. But the police official said it wouldn't be impossible for one man to carry out the attacks on his own.

"He's obviously cold as ice. But to get close to the government is easy. The streets are open in that area," he said.

Associated Press writer Bjoern H. Amland in Oslo contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press.

lofter1
July 23rd, 2011, 10:46 AM
Anders Behring Breivik appears to be a big admirer of Dutch right-winger Geert Wilders (http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2011/7/23/suspect-in-norway-terrorist-attacks-is-geert-wilders-admirer.html) and also a fan of a more local Moo Cow (http://underthemountainbunker.com/2011/07/22/the-oslo-terrorist-not-only-has-ties-to-right-wing-extremism-but-hes-a-pamela-geller-fan/).

This could make the NYPD think twice about how things will go down for this crew's plans near the WTC site on 9.11.2011 (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/911-freedom-rally-at-ground-zero.html)

Front_Porch
July 23rd, 2011, 11:06 AM
80 people! What wire is missing in someone's brain that they kill 80 people? My prayers go out to the families of the victims. @KenNYC, hope all your friends and loved ones are alright!

GordonGecko
July 23rd, 2011, 04:39 PM
80 people! What wire is missing in someone's brain that they kill 80 people? My prayers go out to the families of the victims. @KenNYC, hope all your friends and loved ones are alright!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/23/article-2017709-0D1F33FB00000578-704_306x512.jpg

This nutjob systematically shot kids one by one for 1.5 hours straight because the authorities were too slow to get on the island to intervene

hbcat
July 23rd, 2011, 10:26 PM
What's worse than a madman who carries out a bombing and shooting killing nearly 100 people?

One with a 1,500 page political manifesto and a twelve minute Youtube video, hoping to inspire others to follow his example.

Edit -- Youtube vid deleted.

I won't help this man spread his message.

lofter1
July 23rd, 2011, 11:10 PM
The manifesto, 2083 A European Declaration of Independence, is HERE (http://politisktinkorrekt.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2083+-+A+European+Declaration+of+Independence.pdf) [pdf] in full. Despite the photos of Breivik tacked on at the end, the opening shows the name "Andrew Berwick" followed by London 2011.

Interesting to note that it includes this touching passage:



I have watched, for the better part of a year, a number of decent human beings including, but not limited to, Pamela Geller ...


It also includes 46 individual citations for Robert Spencer, Madame Geller's right hand rightist.

As noted on THIS BLOG (http://ichaview.blogspot.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-andrew-berwick.html), this creation appears to be an attempt by someone to piggy back onto the Oslo tragedy.

hbcat
July 23rd, 2011, 11:38 PM
^ The police appear to believe it is his writing and his video --

http://en.rian.ru/world/20110724/165356082.html

lofter1
July 24th, 2011, 10:46 AM
Anders Behring Breivik: Oslo, Norway Bombing 'Necessary'

The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/anders-behring-breivik-oslo-bombing_n_907880.html)
July 23, 2011

... In his first comment via a lawyer since he was arrested, 32-year-old Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik expressed willingness to explain himself in court at a hearing likely to be held on Monday about extending protective custody.

"He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary," lawyer Geir Lippestad told independent TV2 news ...

lofter1
July 24th, 2011, 10:47 AM
I bet this guy can ramble on for hours, given his 1,500 page manifesto.

Wonder if they'll let him speak and "explain himself"?

ZippyTheChimp
July 24th, 2011, 11:03 AM
I joined the session after visiting one of the initial facilitators, a Serbian Crusader Commander and war hero, in Monrovia, Liberia... Our primary objective is to develop PCCTS, Knights Templar into becoming the foremost conservative revolutionary movement in Western Europe [in] the next few decades


I have now sent an application for a Ruger Mini 14 semi-automatic rifle (5.56)... On the application form I stated: 'hunting deer'. It would have been tempting to just write the truth; 'executing category A and B cultural Marxists/multiculturalist traitors' just to see their reaction :P.


So what do I do when I'm not working? I'm in the middle of another steroid cycle at the moment, training hard to exceed my 92 kg record from July... I have a more or less perfect body at the moment and I'm as happy as I have ever been.

"My morale is at an all time high and I'm generally happy with how things are progressing. I may create an ideological Knights Templar Youtube movie this winter.


As for girlfriends; I do get the occasional lead, or the occasional girl making a move, especially now a day as I'm fit like hell and feel great. But I'm trying to avoid relationships as it would only complicate my plans and it may jeopardize my operation.


I have been storing three bottles of Chateau Kirwan 1979 (French red wine) which I purchased at an auction 10 years ago with the intention of enjoying them at a very special occasion.

"Considering the fact that my martyrdom operation draws ever closer I decided to bring one to enjoy with my extended family at our annual Christmas party in December."


My thought was to save the last flask for my last martyrdom celebration and enjoy it with the two high class model whores I intend to rent prior to the mission.


I believe this will be my last entry. It is now Fri July 22nd, 12.51.

"Sincere regards, Andrew Berwick. Justiciar Knight Commander. Knights Templar Europe. Knights Templar Norway.

A romanticized view of the Knights Templar and medieval Europe.

A delusional asshole.

stache
July 24th, 2011, 11:09 AM
Reminds me of the Unibomber with the extensive treatise.

Ninjahedge
July 25th, 2011, 08:53 AM
The guy is a twisted lonely sicko that thinks that shooting a bunch of kids with shattering rounds AT A DAY CAMP is a way to express his dissatisfaction and hatred of Muslim Extremists.

It would be a fitting punishment for him if he were bound and gagged (not allowed to utter a word) as his Manifesto is picked apart and defamed, how his own actions make him no better than the ones he proclaims to hate, and that he will only be remembered as "that poor sick fool".

The mere fact that he WANTS to be heard is reason enough to not let him be heard. What better a punishment for someone looking to be known than forced anonymity?

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 09:37 AM
Mr Lippestad earlier said that his client had two wishes: "The first is that the hearing is public, and the second is that he may attend in uniform."

Breivik was driven to a back underground entrance of the courthouse. There are no reports of what he wore, or if anyone had actually seen him. A decoy car may have been used.

The hearing was closed to the public.

GordonGecko
July 25th, 2011, 10:37 AM
The guy is obviously a nutjob, but he's not much different than the european extremists of previous years a la Adolf Hitler and his SS upper brass. These people are hateful malcontents with distorted world views, and are extremely dangerous when empowered. I think obviously the Europeans need to keep a closer eye on these extremists which I'm sure aren't too hard to find online by searching for various manifestos and diatribes

stache
July 25th, 2011, 12:51 PM
I think the Europeans keep closer track on their citizens than Americans do here.

lofter1
July 25th, 2011, 02:26 PM
This guy is not crazy at all. His goal was to dismantle & destroy the political future of Norway. At the same time he hoped to engender suspicion and hatred of Muslims, forcing a revolution against them. He was incredibly systematic in what he planned and how he pulled it off.

His name should not be spoken.

I don't toss around the word evil, but here it fits.

hbcat
July 25th, 2011, 02:52 PM
^ I removed the Youtube link I posted over the weekend. It won't stop anyone from finding it, but I don't want to give this bastard any help or help spread one molecule of his poison.

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 03:19 PM
This guy is not crazy at all.I disagree completely. I've read a lot of nonsense linking him to far right movements in Europe. Geert Wilders may be dangerous, but he's not crazy; knows exactly what he's doing.


His goal was to dismantle & destroy the political future of NorwayHow was he going to accomplish that, by making a speech to the citizens of Norway while in uniform? He completely misread the political landscape. He's a pariah, even among Norwegians whose political views he might find agreeable. Clueless.

His manifesto isn't a goal, but just a structure to help him come to terms with his own descent into insignificance and isolationism. Details are beginning to emerge about his childhood. Dysfunctional family. Estrangement from his father. Lived too long in his mother's house. No girlfriends. Any friends at all?

It's telling to me that the "demands"of his long-term planning were a a convenient rationalization of his lonely existence.

We want him to be Geert Wilders, but I think he's Timothy McVeigh. Grist for the psychology mill.

lofter1
July 25th, 2011, 04:19 PM
This guy is not crazy at all. His goal was to dismantle & destroy the political future of Norway.




How was he going to accomplish that ...

By assassinating nearly one hundred of the prospective leaders of the party that he hated.

Kill 'em when they're young and they can't lead later.

Doesn't hurt his cause that his targets are totally defenseless and his act could instill terror in others who might want to work for the party.

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Kill 'em when they're young and they can't lead later.And this sounds like a logical plan by someone who isn't crazy?

lofter1
July 25th, 2011, 05:07 PM
I guess we're just arguing about the definition of crazy.

Based on what it seems you're saying then OBL was crazy. McVeigh was crazy. The Ft. Hood shooter was crazy.

Alienated? Unhappy? Sorry examples of human beings? On that I agree.

Crazy? Nope.

stache
July 25th, 2011, 06:00 PM
How about crazy yet pragmatic?

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Based on what it seems you're saying then OBL was crazy.I don't think OBL was crazy, and it's consistent with what I'm saying.


How about crazy yet pragmatic?I heard that Breivik had a retirement account, but it's 100% invested in Useless Industries Inc (http://uselessindustries.com/index.html)

hbcat
July 25th, 2011, 09:08 PM
It is a matter of what we think is "crazy." I would limit the definition of insanity to those whose thoughts and emotions are debilitated to such an extent that their abilities to work with mundane conventions are badly affected. Long term planning and strategies required of the sort we saw in Norway require a mind that can work well within these conventions. Neither Bin Laden nor this guy are/were crazy. Deluded by ideology and hatred, yes. Vicious, yes. But not out of touch to enough to fit my definition of crazy.

mariab
July 25th, 2011, 09:44 PM
Psychologists would certify any human (for lack of a better term) who tries to justify taking a life – or lives – to achieve their own end as (technically) insane. They would not include self-defense, or maybe even some crimes of passion. That doesn’t mean that they (psychologists) officially think that the murderers didn’t realize the morality of their actions.

How many sociopaths have followed this guy’s route, & like him, stayed as cool as you please, even though this guy may not fit the sociopathic mold? In their mind, they’re perfectly normal & lucid. Their mission is as justified as yours or mine is when we make the decision to jaywalk so as not to have to walk all the way to the corner. In reality - the real reality, not his - the part of his brain which controls such impulses is gone. His id has overtaken his ego (not meaning arrogance). Same with mcveigh, obl, hitler, bundy, etc. Even van der sloot. They can still have the same functions as the rest of us, but they have absolutely no moral brake when it comes to achieving their particular objective. We’ve all heard of the murderer who couldn’t hurt animals, even insects. Same thing.

But in the end does it matter if someone wasn’t inherently evil, as is argued by opponents of capital punishment? Does it matter what happened to them along the way to make them what they were? Not after they committed their crimes, it doesn’t. They’re all part of the same sludge as raging maniacs in prison with a mile-long rap sheet that ended up spraying a liquor store with gunfire. Whether it’s death row, prison, or an asylum, he’ll never see freedom again, & whatever he was trying to achieve was for nothing.

mariab
July 25th, 2011, 10:06 PM
Speaking of capital punishment:

Crime & Punishment: Homegrown terrorist case challenges Norway’s faith in prisoner rehabilitation


http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/jxQt1kc0WY8crrmoW.rQwg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQwO3E9ODU7dz00MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/208/2011/05/06/lauracambridgepicsmall_224930.png
By Laura Rozen (http://wirednewyork.com/blogs/author/laura-rozen/) | The Envoy (http://wirednewyork.com/blogs/envoy/) – 6 hrs ago

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/BuXbq2x2kwICB8RY0X9M1w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTE5MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/theenvoy/breivik725.jpg Anders Behring Breivik, left, sits in an armored police vehicle after leaving the courthouse …

The Norwegian justice system delivered the first legal setback to the confessed perpetrator of last week's devastating attacks that killed 76 people, when the presiding judge ruled his arraignment hearing closed to the media today. Anders Behring Breivik 32, had apparently been hoping for a broad media platform to promote his white supremacist, Islamophobic, anti-immigrant views. He had already drafted a 1,500-page manifesto (http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2011/07/norway-attacks) laying out his rationale for the bombing and shootings that devastated Norway last Friday. (It turns out, however, that at least a chunk of Breivik's manifesto, entitled "2083: A European Declaration of Independence," and compiled over three years, was plagiarized from an earlier treatise by the Unabomber.)
"Mr. Breivik started reading from his manifesto in court but was asked to stop," police told reporters, the BBC reported (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14274908). "When he asked why the hearing was closed, the judge gave him the reasons."
Since police apprehended Breivik on the island of Utoya Friday, he has freely acknowledged that he carried out the bombing of central Oslo that killed eight people and the shooting massacre that took the lives of 68 young people attending a camp at Utoya. However, he does not accept criminal responsibility for his acts, judge Kim Hager told journalists in a brief press conference after the hearing Monday. The defendant "argu[ed] the killings had been necessary to prevent Europe being taken over by Muslims," the BBC reported.
Judge Kim Hager ordered Breivik held for eight weeks, four of them in total isolation, pending trial on charges of terrorism.
But the question remains: How will the Scandinavian nation's traditionally lenient legal system deal with what it has never faced before--a homegrown terrorist who proudly owns up to committing the worst acts of violence Norway has suffered since World War II?
Norway has no death penalty, and a maximum 21-year prison sentence. However, if convicted, Breivik's sentence could be extended for up to five years at a time if he's deemed a continuing threat, explained Carol Sandby, a lawyer with the Norway Office of Public Prosecutions, in an article by MediaPost's Peter O'Neill published Sunday in the Montreal Gazette (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/Norway+suspect+could+jailed+beyond+sentence/5154076/story.html).
Sandby said Norway's "General Civil Penal Code gives the state prosecutor the right to seek an extension of sentences beyond the 21-year maximum for up to five years at a time, on the condition that the inmate is deemed to be a 'high risk' of repeating serious offenses," O'Neill writes (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/Norway+suspect+could+jailed+beyond+sentence/5154076/story.html).
But while it's "technically possible" to serially extend the five-year prison sentences beyond the 21 years, Sandby said that the Norwegian justice system generally does not exercise that option.
"You can, but it's highly unlikely," Sandby told O'Neill. "That would mean that person is going to spend his entire life in jail."
What's wrong with that? Norwegians strongly believe in the rehabilitation of prisoners to prepare them for a successful reintegration into society after their incarceration.
Norway "takes the mantra of rehabilitation to an extreme," Foreign Policy's Robert Zeliger explains (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/07/25/the_not_so_terrible_fate_awaiting_norway_s_alleged _mass_killer). "The Norwegian prison system takes seriously the philosophy that inmates should be treated as humanely as possible and that jail sentences should be seen less as punishment than as an opportunity to reintegrate troubled people back into society."
Norwegians tend to see "acts of extreme violence ... as aberrant events, not symptoms of national decay," Time Magazine's William Lee Adams reported (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz1T7yJTAws) last year. Norwegian prison guards undergo two years of training, "don't carry guns ... and call prisoners by their first names and play sports and eat meals with them," Adams reported.
That approach -- and its underlying premise that people who commit crimes are troubled who should be given a second chance and prepared to live again amongst society -- can perhaps be credited with Norway's extremely low prison-recidivism rate—only about 20 percent of those imprisoned in Norway commit a repeat crime that sends them back to prison. Recidivism figures in the United States and the United Kingdom, by contrast, are much higher-- 50 to 60 percent, Time reported (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz1T7yJTAws).
Indeed, Norway, a country of 5 million people, only has about 3,300 prison inmates, according to Time (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz1T7yJTAws). That gives Norway a ratio of prison inmates to the country's overall population roughly ten times lower than that of the United States.
"That's what the world needs to understand about Norway," Sandby told PostMedia. "This incident represents our loss of innocence, because we've been a very safe country to live in until now. There's been no reason to keep people in prison for life."
Whether Breivik will test Norway's ideas about crime and punishment -- and whether the likes of Breivik deserves a chance to live in freedom among them again -- remains to be seen.
For his part, Breivik indicated to court officials today he's prepared to spend the rest of his life in prison. And his father, a former Norwegian diplomat from whom Breivik is estranged, told the UK Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660398/Father-of-Norway-mass-murderer-Breivik-my-son-should-have-killed-himself.html) he thinks his son "should have taken his own life, too" for his heinous acts. "That's what he should have done."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/norway-law-order-homegrown-terrorist-case-challenges-norway-192223814.html

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 10:25 PM
But in the end does it matter if someone wasn’t inherently evil, as is argued by opponents of capital punishment? Does it matter what happened to them along the way to make them what they were? Not after they committed their crimes, it doesn’t. They’re all part of the same sludge as raging maniacs in prison with a mile-long rap sheet that ended up spraying a liquor store with gunfire. Whether it’s death row, prison, or an asylum, he’ll never see freedom again, & whatever he was trying to achieve was for nothing.I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not talking about a legal defense for responsibility for his actions.

Go back to this:
This guy is not crazy at all. His goal was to dismantle & destroy the political future of Norway. At the same time he hoped to engender suspicion and hatred of Muslims, forcing a revolution against them. He was incredibly systematic in what he planned and how he pulled it off.

His name should not be spoken.

I don't toss around the word evil, but here it fits.The implication is that he had some rational political agenda, rational in the sense that it could achieve a goal other than mass murder.

OBL is a good counterpoint. Not only was he not insane, but his actions were completely rational, well thought out. OBL was evil and diabolical, as were his actions; but they achieved the results he wanted beyond the mass murder.

BTW:

Psychologists would certify any human (for lack of a better term) who tries to justify taking a life – or lives – to achieve their own end as (technically) insaneWhat psychologist ever stated such a thing? Even technically.

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 10:28 PM
and compiled over three years, was plagiarized from an earlier treatise by the Unabomber.)Good read, Stache.

ZippyTheChimp
July 25th, 2011, 10:54 PM
Glenn Beck hits 'new low'; compares Norway victims to Hitler Youth

July 25, 2011 | 3:41 pm

Glenn Beck, who in June aired his final cable tv show on Fox News, is still on the radio and has found a new way to get his name into the headlines around the globe.

Instead of calling the president of the United States a racist, Beck focused on the scores of young people gunned down at a camp in Norway. Beck said the camp reminded him of Adolf Hitler's infamous Hitler Youth.

"There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing," Beck stated in the first minute of his syndicated radio show Monday.

Torbjørn Eriksen, the former press secretary to Norway's prime minister, was not amused.

"Young political activists have gathered at Utoya for over 60 years to learn about and be part of democracy, the very opposite of what the Hitler Youth was about," Eriksen told The Daily Telegraph. "Glenn Beck's comments are ignorant, incorrect and extremely hurtful," he added.

To answer Beck's question of "who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?": Caroline Shinkle does. The recent high school grad founded Camp USA two years ago. The free, nonprofit, nonpartisan political camp in Cape Cod, Mass., is designed for middle-schoolers.

According to its website, Camp USA aspires to have kids leave the camp "with knowledge, confidence, and eagerness to be politically involved."

Conservative columnist Jeff Lukens created a political camp in Tampa, Fla., which aligns itself closer to "tea party" values. One of the games described by the St. Petersburg Times would surely make presidential hopeful Ron Paul smile.

"Children will win hard, wrapped candies to use as currency for a store, symbolizing the gold standard. On the second day, the 'banker' will issue paper money instead. Over time, students will realize their paper money buys less and less, while the candies retain their value," the newspaper explained.

Los Angeles Times

mariab
July 25th, 2011, 11:51 PM
^ I read that too. Douche.



I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not talking about a legal defense for responsibility for his actions.

Go back to this:The implication is that he had some rational political agenda, rational in the sense that it could achieve a goal other than mass murder.

OBL is a good counterpoint. Not only was he not insane, but his actions were completely rational, well thought out. OBL was evil and diabolical, as were his actions; but they achieved the results he wanted beyond the mass murder.

BTW:
What psychologist ever stated such a thing? Even technically.

I did bring up the legality of it, but only to use an example of his thinking & sometimes the way to understand it is to put it in a legal perspective, because then you have to dissect this person & their history step by step.

How can any of these people's political agendas be rational? Even without mass murder? Do I think he's crazy? Yes, as are the others even though in their minds they achieved their goals beyond mass murder. How were obl's actions rational? What achievement did he really make? With the exception of the people who supported him, he damned his cause.

No, I've never first-hand heard a psychologist determine every single murderer insane, but how wouldn't they? You don't have to be a stark raving maniac to be crazy. Van der sloot was cool as a cucumber & very methodical but he was GONE. No sane person could do any of the things these people did. Their achievements couldn't have come to be were it not for mass murder & they are very aware of that when they make their plans. And that in itself is not rational thinking.

lofter1
July 25th, 2011, 11:59 PM
Looking at the more positive side of humanity ...

A Tale of Heroism During the Norwegian Massacre

Marcel Gleffe and his family had been hoping for a week of relaxation at a Norwegian campground. But when gunfire started on an island across the water, he and several others jumped into their boats and began rescuing distraught teenagers swimming for their lives. "It goes without saying," he says.

Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html)
By Anna Reimann (http://www.spiegel.de/extra/0,1518,632130,00.html) and Gerald Traufetter (gerald_traufetter@spiegel.de) in Utvika, Norway
July 14, 2011

The man who had suddenly become a hero pours himself a beer and lights a cigarette. He only managed one or two hours of sleep the night before and he looks tired. It is the day after the massacre at the Norwegian youth camp on Utøya Island. The suspected perpetrator, Anders Behring B. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776091,00.html) cold-bloodedly shot down 85 people on the previous day -- but dozens were able to flee by jumping into the water and swimming towards the mainland.

It is 24 hours since Marcel Gleffe became a key figure in pulling many of these young camp goers out of the water. Thirty-two years old, Gleffe is a roofer from Germany who has worked in Norway for the past two-and-a-half years. Currently, he is vacationing at a campground in Utvika together with his parents Walter and Heidrun. The campground is directly across from the island where the massacre took place.

He takes a deep drag on his cigarette and begins to tell his story. It was a chilly late afternoon on Friday and the Gleffe family had just sat down for coffee at the table in front of their RV. They were talking about the attack that had just taken place in Oslo (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776268,00.html) , about the bomb and the several people it had killed. A neighbor at the campground had told them of the shocking attack (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776078,00.html).

Suddenly, they heard a hollow bang. First just one or two, "but then it was an entire salvo," says Heidrun, 53. They saw dark smoke rise up from the island. "I said to my husband, 'come on, lets go down to the jetty, we have to see what happened." Maybe it was some fireworks, they thought, or some sort of exercise.

Bobbing in the Water

The jetty is just 200 meters from where their RV was parked. Several boats are tied up there and the island is just 600 meters across the water. It's easy to see the rocks on the island's shore and the ferry bobbing in the water.

When they arrived at the jetty, the Gleffes could see a man fishing a girl out of the water, she must have been 16 or 17 years old, and she was clad only in her underwear. Immediately behind her was another girl, screaming as she swam. "She was yelling 'help, help,' she screamed 'shooting!' and that we should call the police, Heidrun says.

It was the moment when the Gleffes realized that something terrible must have happened on the island. "We saw several heads bobbing in the water," Heidrun says.

The heads they saw were several teenagers who had jumped into the water in an attempt to escape. By the time the Gleffes saw them, dozens had likely already been killed by the gunman rampaging across Utøya.

The family immediately jumped into action, as if by remote control, not wanting to lose a second. Heidrun wrapped the girl who had reached the shore into a blanket and brought her to their RV. She was freezing and in shock.

Helping Each Other

"In such a situation, you don't think at all," her son Marcel says. He took off and grabbed the key for the small red boat that they had rented for the week and quickly got the motor running. "I immediately suspected that there was a connection to the attack in Oslo," he says.

The teenagers who were swimming in the water called out: "Don't come closer! Don't come closer."

But Marcel did. "I just acted," he says. He saw more and more people jumping into the water from the rocks on the shore and looked through a telescope at the island. Suddenly, he saw the attacker, squatting on a rock with his weapon raised. Eyewitnesses later said that he also shot at those who had already managed to jump into the water.

"There were people swimming everywhere in the water," Marcel says. "I threw them lifejackets and pulled those into the boat who were having the most trouble. Everyone was screaming, but they were also helping each other." They screamed, they cried, but they also hugged each other for courage. "It was unbelievable to see how strong they were," Marcel says.

The 32-year-old took his boat out into the water again and again, collecting more people and bringing them back to the jetty. There, additional helpers were waiting, and several other campers with their boats were also pulling teenagers out of the water. Marcel guesses that he alone was able to bring about 20 of them to the shore, he doesn't know exactly how many anymore ...

FULL STORY (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html)

© SPIEGEL ONLINE 2011
All Rights Reserved

lofter1
July 26th, 2011, 12:33 AM
Andrew Sullivan makes a very good argument (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/07/revisiting-christianism.html) that this Christianist killer is "extremely sane" ...


Notice how unlike other crazed madmen, he does not end his killing spree by killing himself (http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2011/07/making-sense-of-the-senseless.html). Notice how he has not pled insanity; but has pled not guilty even though he concedes the horror of his actions. This man is extremely sane. Notice the justification (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/world/europe/26oslo.html?hp):


Speaking at a televised news conference, [Breivik's lawyer] Mr. Heger said that Mr. Breivik had acknowledged carrying out the attacks but had pleaded not guilty, because he “believes that he needed to carry out these acts to save Norway” and western Europe from “cultural Marxism and Muslim domination."



He did what he did, knowing it was evil, because of a passionate commitment to a political cause, which has become fused with a politicized parody of one religion, and with a passionate paranoid hatred of another one.

ZippyTheChimp
July 26th, 2011, 12:54 AM
I did bring up the legality of it, but only to use an example of his thinking & sometimes the way to understand it is to put it in a legal perspective, because then you have to dissect this person & their history step by step.In legal terms, insanity absolves the person from responsibility for their actions. Again, that's not what I'm saying at all.


How can any of these people's political agendas be rational?You're confusing rationality with morality.


No, I've never first-hand heard a psychologist determine every single murderer insane, but how wouldn't they? You don't have to be a stark raving maniac to be crazy.So everyone who's committed pre-meditated murder should be in a mental hospital instead of prison?


No sane person could do any of the things these people did.The dark side of humanity that makes us uncomfortable. The Banality of Evil.

hbcat
July 26th, 2011, 05:03 AM
Zippy, but why do think he is crazy then? He is rational and cognizant of the consequences of his actions. His rational goal, other than mass murder, is to instill fear in his fellow Europeans and angst into thinking over immigration policy. He hopes to escalate fear and anger against Muslims living in Europe. This strategy may in fact backfire on him, but it is still a wider goal. In terms of planning and motive, he isn't at all like the Virginia Tech gunman, for example.

He clearly hopes other "Christian conservatives" (his language) will follow his example. Are you saying that if no one else carries out a terror attack of this kind, he's crazy, but if someone or more do, then he is?

ZippyTheChimp
July 26th, 2011, 09:03 AM
His rational goal, other than mass murder, is to instill fear in his fellow Europeans and angst into thinking over immigration policy. He hopes to escalate fear and anger against Muslims living in Europe. This strategy may in fact backfire on him, but it is still a wider goal. In terms of planning and motive, he isn't at all like the Virginia Tech gunman, for example.

Have you read any part of his manifesto?

His profile may not turn out to be like the Virginia Tech gunman, but he was living in a world of fantasy, which continued after his arrest. His self-interview paints a picture of extreme narcissism. I don't think changing Norway's immigration policy was his goal; more like becoming a Knight in shining armor.


Andrew Sullivan: Notice how unlike other crazed madmen, he does not end his killing spree by killing himself.Or maybe an "extremely sane" person would have planned an escape.

mariab
July 26th, 2011, 04:41 PM
You're confusing rationality with morality.

In the Norway case, that line has definitely been blurred. How could he hatch up a plan like this, even without the murders, in a rational way? And how would he think that his plan would come to fruition without the immorality of murder?


So everyone who's committed pre-meditated murder should be in a mental hospital instead of prison?

No. This guy is insane, but it was premeditated & he should rot in prison if there's no death penalty. He should not, however - nor should anyone - be absolved of responsibility because he may very well be certified insane. I don't think that just because someone is insane doesn't mean they didn't realize right from wrong. I also don't think that's the way it is 100% of the time. Some really don't know. He was one of the ones who knew.



The dark side of humanity that makes us uncomfortable. The Banality of Evil

I've read in a few places that we are all capable of evil and/or killing. Thinking evil thoughts? Guilty. All of us. Capable of carrying out murder for for selfish purposes? Not me. Think I would have picked up on that by now. Capable of killing for self-defense, defense of family (tribe/offspring)? Yes, we're all capable of that. Crimes of passion; finding husband/wife in bed with another woman/man? Some of us are, I hope I'm not, although I understand the rage behind what turns Miss Hand into Miss Knife.
The dictionary definition of evil is interesting: Noun- a:The fact of suffering, misfortune, wrongdoing b: a cosmic evil force.
Or Something that brings distress, sorrow, or calamity. Doesn't seem as malevolent as I always thought of it: Of the devil, or satan.

GordonGecko
July 26th, 2011, 05:02 PM
Comes down to your definition of insane. To me he was clearly in full mental control before & during the act, he knew exactly what he was doing

ZippyTheChimp
July 26th, 2011, 05:11 PM
In the Norway case, that line has definitely been blurred. How could he hatch up a plan like this, even without the murders, in a rational way? And how would he think that his plan would come to fruition without the immorality of murder?I wasn't talking about the Norway act, which I regard as immoral and irrational. I was referring to OBL. His actions were immoral, but within the context of what he wanted to do, he acted rationally. He didn't sacrifice himself, but sent out others. He avoided capture. His purpose was to draw the US into a war in the Middle East.


No. This guy is insane, but it was premeditated & he should rot in prison if there's no death penalty.I wasn't talking about this guy. It started with your statement:
Psychologists would certify any human (for lack of a better term) who tries to justify taking a life – or lives – to achieve their own end as (technically) insaneFalse.


The dictionary definition of evil is interesting: Noun- a:The fact of suffering, misfortune, wrongdoing b: a cosmic evil force.
Or Something that brings distress, sorrow, or calamity. Doesn't seem as malevolent as I always thought of it: Of the devil, or satan.Not everyone believes in Satan. Evil is usually what people do, so it's the adjective that's first described in the dictionary:
adjective- 1. Morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.



What you should be looking up is the definition of insanity.

mariab
July 26th, 2011, 08:07 PM
I wasn't talking about the Norway act, which I regard as immoral and irrational. I was referring to OBL. His actions were immoral, but within the context of what he wanted to do, he acted rationally. He didn't sacrifice himself, but sent out others. He avoided capture. His purpose was to draw the US into a war in the Middle East.

As far as obl, the war wasn't his ultimate objective. His ultimate objective was to destroy the US & he failed. That objective in itself is irrational to me, the same irrationality that wants to nuke the entire middle-east because of a few douchebags. As far as military/war strategy, fine. I'll throw the rational tag in there although if he wanted us destroyed he should've started with our military bases.



False.

What would you call someone who would kill someone or many for their own selfish purpose, no matter the purpose? Normal? Psychologists know far more about the psyche than I ever will, but I don't see how they cannot call anyone like that sane. Calculating, methodical, can also be insane.




What you should be looking up is the definition of insanity.

I know the definition of insanity, & it's not always going to look like jared loughtner or charles manson. They're not always going to have the look in their eyes & speaking in tongues. I think you get the feeling I'm trying to shield brievik from the pre-meditated murderer tag. If that's the case, not so. It was premeditated, calculated, & very methodical, & I still believe he's insane.

eddhead
July 26th, 2011, 08:16 PM
How about crazy yet pragmatic?

Odd as that sounds, I agree with it. I believe one can be both both crazy and mind skilled in certain twisted sort ways. He certainly fits the bill

ZippyTheChimp
July 26th, 2011, 08:20 PM
As far as obl, the war wasn't his ultimate objective. His ultimate objective was to destroy the US & he failed.That was political rhetoric from the US. He wanted the US and other Western countries out of the Middle East. Ironically, he also wanted Sadam Hussein out, because Hussein was a secular ruler. The goal was Islamic theocracies throughout the Middle East, with no Israel. He didin't care about the US as long as we were out of the Middle East.


What would you call someone who would kill someone or many for their own selfish purpose, no matter the purpose? Normal?So if a person isn't "normal," they're insane?


I know the definition of insanityI think not.

lofter1
July 26th, 2011, 09:20 PM
How about crazy yet pragmatic?

I'll settle for F*ed up A*hole who deserves a cold little lowland island all to himself, chained to a rock with the tide rising.

He knew what he was doing and he did it.

Sometimes what passes for human really doesn't make the cut.

Cull the waste.

mariab
July 26th, 2011, 11:12 PM
The goal was Islamic theocracies throughout the Middle East, with no Israel.

That too, even first. But did he really think the US was going to stay out & do nothing - not debating whether we're right or wrong, that's an entirely different thread - & that after 9/11 we were going to say "OK that's it we're going home"? On this subject, I'm out of here. We'll never agree, except on a few points, & I want to get back to the subject of this thread.



So if a person isn't "normal," they're insane?

No. I was specifically referring to this
someone who would kill someone or many for their own selfish purpose I wasn't referring to anyone who may have a mental illness, of which there are many, including subcategories.


I'll settle for F*ed up A*hole who deserves a cold little lowland island all to himself, chained to a rock with the tide rising.

He knew what he was doing and he did it.

Sometimes what passes for human really doesn't make the cut.

Cull the waste. Agreed.

His own father said he should have taken his own life before thinking of something like this.



Anders Behring Breivik, accused Norway gunman, very likely 'insane' says his lawyerBY Lukas I. Alpert (http://wirednewyork.com/authors/Lukas I. Alpert) and Corky Siemaszko (http://wirednewyork.com/authors/Corky Siemaszko)
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Originally Published:Tuesday, July 26th 2011, 9:29 AM
Updated: Tuesday, July 26th 2011, 2:17 PM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/07/27/alg_oslo_shooter.jpg Getty Images
Anders Behring Breivik is a 'very cold person' who thinks he is Europe's 'savior,' his lawyer said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/07/26/2011-07-26_andres_behring_breivik_accused_norway_gunman_ve ry_likely_insane_says_his_lawyer.html

lofter1
July 27th, 2011, 12:56 AM
Anders Behring Breivik is a 'very cold person' who thinks he is Europe's 'savior,' his lawyer said.

And that makes him "insane"?

All across the globe that would put him side by side with any number in positions of power who know they are the chosen one.

hbcat
July 27th, 2011, 07:38 AM
Define sane or insane as you will, but the truth is this guy has an audience --


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GOyUxsjZfI

ZippyTheChimp
July 27th, 2011, 08:23 AM
At this point, that's a good idea.

There's no medical term called insanity, or clinical insanity. That's why a psychiatrist would never use it to describe someone's condition. Insanity is a legal term. A court rules that a person cannot be held accountable for their actions. If you say that Breivik is insane, then all you are saying is that he can't be tried for murder.

Psychoses: Various abnormalities, some more sever and debilitating than others. You can have one or more of these conditions and be ruled insane, or you can still understand the consequences of your actions, and have to stand trial.

Ninjahedge
July 27th, 2011, 09:07 AM
The guy is not Insane as we are used to associating with the word. He is psychotic. He is completely rational in a Hannibal Lecter kind of way.

He makes a beet farm so he can quietly acquire fertilizer. He is dissatisfied with his government, so it seems LOGICAL to "change" it first hand.

But anybody that believes that they can get people to come to their way of thinking by BLOWING UP people who disagree.... They fall short on several lines.

1. They either believe that there are many who support what they are doing and they are just voicing what has not been heard.

or

2. They have completely forgotten that threats and violence may sway an opinion based on fear, but that they rarely get someone to FEEL like they should agree. Totalitarian governments have seen this fail many times.

The bottom line is, people who are, for the most part, "sane and rational" individuals are the most dangerous ones around when one brick falls short of the wall. Someone with just a little skew can do more damage than many a complete lunatic.

hbcat
July 27th, 2011, 11:13 AM
Sociopaths are not necessarily psychotic -- no more so than the rest of us.

ZippyTheChimp
July 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
The term I used to describe him was "delusional asshole."

The second part is my own unscientific appraisal.

The first, though, might describe his condition, not so much from what he did, but from how he seems to view himself in the world. I don't think this was a case of far-right rhetoric and "multicultural policy" distorting what was a normal person; I think this was an existing psychosis.

hbcat
July 27th, 2011, 11:56 AM
^ "Delusional asshole" works for me. "Sociopath" works too.

By the way, his lawyer is insisting Breivik is "insane," which supports your point a couple of posts up.

lofter1
July 27th, 2011, 12:01 PM
Now the lawyers for this piece of waste is claiming, according to that RT vid, that "he is unaware that he killed as many as 76 people" :confused:

That will be a neat trick to try and prove, given his actions using point blank bullets over and over and over and his written pre-attack description of using soft bullets to inflict maximum damage.

MidtownGuy
July 27th, 2011, 12:04 PM
Unfortunately we'll probably have more of this kind of sick tragedy, as immigration continues to strain the traditional notions of nationalism and ethnic identity that are so strong in previously homogeneous countries of Europe.

mariab
July 27th, 2011, 12:24 PM
Psychoses: Various abnormalities, some more sever and debilitating than others. You can have one or more of these conditions and be ruled insane, or you can still understand the consequences of your actions, and have to stand trial.

This I agree with. I believe, personally, although I'm aware that many disagree, that someone can be mentally ill (the new term that I've been seeing more on medical websites to describe insanity) and still understand the consequences of their actions. I am in no way absolving this prick of any responsibility. He wants to see his 'plan' come to pass, but hopefully poetic justice will get him in prison.




The guy is not Insane as we are used to associating with the word. He is psychotic. He is completely rational in a Hannibal Lecter kind of way.

Exactly. I wanted to use a real person as opposed to a character, but an exact fit didn't come to mind when I was searching for one.



Now the lawyers for this piece of waste is claiming, according to that RT vid, that "he is unaware that he killed as many as 76 people" :confused:

That will be a neat trick to try and prove, given his actions using point blank bullets over and over and over and his written pre-attack description of using soft bullets to inflict maximum damage.


He lost & he knows it. The evidence is all over the place. The manifesto, the way he carried it out. Virtually everythging except a cameraman followi ng documentary-style.

lofter1
July 27th, 2011, 01:30 PM
Given his apparent uber-narcissism I'm surprised he didn't have some sort of cam installed on his body to chronicle his ordination into heaven.

eddhead
July 28th, 2011, 10:04 AM
Define sane or insane as you will, but the truth is this guy has an audience --


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GOyUxsjZfIscary but true.

NoNothing
July 28th, 2011, 11:44 AM
I am just so disgusted by what happened. How can someone be so cruel?

Ninjahedge
July 28th, 2011, 10:06 PM
He lost & he knows it. The evidence is all over the place. The manifesto, the way he carried it out. Virtually everythging except a cameraman followi ng documentary-style.

Martin was busy that day......

lofter1
July 30th, 2011, 02:31 PM
Now the lawyers for this piece of waste is claiming, according to that RT vid, that "he is unaware that he killed as many as 76 people" :confused:

That will be a neat trick to try and prove, given his actions using point blank bullets over and over and over and his written pre-attack description of using soft bullets to inflict maximum damage.

Using the word "unaware" in regard to the ultimate result of the killer's actions is a good lawyer trick.

Once you wipe out more than ten, it's hard to keep track of all the others, eh?

But F*ing A*Hole was cognizant enough (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/26/501364/main20083402.shtml) of what he'd done to ask a pointed question ...

Norway rampage suspect: How many did I kill?

thechief
July 30th, 2011, 08:08 PM
The real story is why it took them 90 minutes to get two guys onto the island to take him down. It was 20 minutes from the capital of their country and yet it took all that time.

It doesnt matter if they used a helicopter or a boat or a volvo or a marine assault vehicle or unicorn from valhalla or whatever - it just didn't happen in a timely fashion.

thechief
July 30th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Here's actual footage (http://bit.ly/nLqGHP) of the massacre on the island.

Here's actuall footage (http://bit.ly/qeiHaC) of the attack in central Oslow.

Now does anyone know why they fouled up the getting the commandos onto the island bit? It doesnt matter if they used a helicopter or a boat or a volvo or a marine assault vehicle or unicorn from valhalla or whatever - it just didn't happen now did it?

stache
July 30th, 2011, 08:48 PM
I'm guessing they were distracted by the explosion, which i am further guessing was part of his plan. He timed everything very well, much like the 911 guys.

mariab
July 31st, 2011, 12:59 PM
Insanity ruling not likely in Norway

Decision on Anders Behring Breivik's mental state will determine whether he can be held criminally liable
By IAN MacDOUGALL http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/sourceAP.gif

updated 2 hours 19 minutes ago 2011-07-31T14:15:31

OSLO, Norway (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&where1=OSLO, Norway&sty=h&form=msdate) — It's unlikely that the right-wing extremist who admitted killing dozens in Norway last week will be declared legally insane because he appears to have been in control of his actions, the head of the panel that will review his psychiatric evaluation told The Associated Press.
The decision on Anders Behring Breivik's mental state will determine whether he can be held criminally liable and punished with a prison sentence or sent to a psychiatric ward for treatment.
The July 22 attacks were so carefully planned and executed that it would be difficult to argue they were the work of a delusional madman, said Dr. Tarjei Rygnestad, who heads the Norwegian Board of Forensic Medicine.

Story: Police: Norway suspect considered other targets (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43956303/ns/world_news-europe/t/police-norway-suspect-considered-other-targets/)

In Norway, an insanity defense requires that a defendant be in a state of psychosis while committing the crime with which he or she is charged. That means the defendant has lost contact with reality to the point that he's no longer in control of his own actions.
"It's not very likely he was psychotic," Rygnestad told the AP.
The forensic board must review and approve the examination by two court-appointed psychiatrists before the report goes to the judge hearing the case. The judge will then decide whether Breivik can be held criminally liable.
Rygnestad told the AP a psychotic person can only perform simple tasks. Even driving from downtown Oslo to the lake northwest of the capital, where Breivik opened fire at a political youth camp, would be too complicated.
"If you have voices in your head telling you to do this and that, it will disturb everything, and driving a car is very complex," Rygnestad said.
"How he prepared" for the rampage — meticulously acquiring the materials and skills he needed to carry out his attack while maintaining silence to avoid detection — argues against psychosis, Rygnestad added.
By his own account, the 32-year-old Norwegian spent years plotting the attack. On July 22, he set off a car bomb that killed eight people in downtown Oslo's government district, then drove north to a youth camp on Utoya, a small lake island set amid a quiet countryside of pines and spruces.
There, he spent 90 minutes executing 69 people, mostly teenage members of the youth wing of Norway's governing Labor Party.

Story: Norway suspect's manifesto reveals delusion (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43956304/ns/world_news-europe/t/norway-suspects-manifesto-reveals-delusion/)
In a 1,500-page manifesto released just before the attacks, Breivik describes his two-pronged attack as the opening salvos of a new crusade that, by 2083, will purge Europe of Muslims and the "cultural Marxists" he complains are letting them have the run of the continent.
Breivik, who is being held pending trial, has admitted to the facts of the case, but denies criminal guilt because he believes the massacre was necessary to save Norway and Europe, his defense attorney Geir Lippestad said, hinting at a possible insanity defense.
"This whole case has indicated that he's insane," Lippestad told reporters last week.
Lippestad did not return calls over the weekend seeking reaction to Rygnestad's comments.
If tried and convicted of terrorism, Breivik will face up to 21 years in prison or an alternative custody arrangement that could keep him behind bars indefinitely.
If he is declared insane, a judge could order him institutionalized in a psychiatric ward only so long as he is deemed mentally ill, though Norway does have provisions for keeping dangerous, but no longer insane, people in custody even after they're discharged from the hospital.
Judging by his manifesto, it's not likely that Breivik would want to pursue an insanity defense if it were up to him. He anticipates that, after his attack, he will be labeled "psycho," "maniac" and "insane."
"I have an extremely strong psyche (stronger than anyone I have ever known)," he wrote.
Two Norwegian psychiatrists selected by the court this week are set to complete their evaluation of Breivik by Nov. 1.

Story: Experts: Insanity hard to fake for confessed killer Anders Behring Breivik (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43954458/ns/world_news-europe/t/experts-insanity-hard-fake-confessed-killer-anders-behring-breivik/)
To prove insanity, most American courts require that the defendant be possessed by an "irresistible impulse" to commit the alleged crime — a mental illness that prevented the defendant from controlling his or her actions.
Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people when he set off a car bomb, similar in many ways to Breivik's, that tore through the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995.
"Timothy thought he was starting a revolution, too," said Dr. Seymour L. Halleck, a forensic psychiatrist who examined McVeigh to determine whether he was competent to stand trial.
To carry out such an attack, "you need a certain kind of competency and determination — and some need to make a mark on the world," Halleck said. "There was nothing we found psychotic about Timothy McVeigh."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43961404/ns/world_news-europe/?gt1=43001

Ninjahedge
August 1st, 2011, 11:53 AM
I think he was crazy and needs to be placed in a institution and given a lobotomy.

Isn't that right Nurse Ratched?

lofter1
August 2nd, 2011, 07:10 AM
The girl can't help it ...





... the jihad-loving media never told us what antisemitic war games they were playing on that island. Utoya Island is a Communist/Socialist campground, and they clearly had a pro-Islamic agenda.

Only the malevolent media could use the euphemism summer camp and get away with it ...
Pamela Geller Backs Breivik (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/08/pamela-geller-backs-breivik.html)

Andrew Sullivan
August 1, 2011

While claiming not to support the mass-murder, Geller nonetheless sees its logic (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/summer-camp-indoctrination-training-center.html):

Breivik was targeting the future leaders of the party responsible for flooding Norway with Muslims who refuse to assimilate, who commit major violence against Norwegian natives, including violent gang rapes, with impunity, and who live on the dole... all done without the consent of the Norwegians.


More here, (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/08/01/284011/pam-geller-race-mixing-breivik-right/) and the citation of a sentence where she decried race-mixing at the sumer camp.

Her key argument, such as it is, rests on the fact that these camps were virulently opposed to the Gaza war and to the West Bank settlements. Increasingly, the far right government in Israel is the rallying point for the far right Christianist movement in Europe and the US. From Sarah Palin's Israeli flag to Mike Huckabee's celebration of West Bank settlements, the civilizational war is no longer Christianity vs Islam, it is Judeo-Christianity vs Islam. And the focal point for the apocalyptic clash? Israel.

I wonder when Israel was founded if its leaders ever dreamed of a day when their most stalwart allies for Greater Israel would be neo-fascist movements in Europe. There are ironies and then there are tragedies.

COPYRIGHT © 2008-11 The Newsweek / Daily Beast Company LLC , ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

***

Visual commentary from Geller (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/summer-camp-indoctrination-training-center.html) on racial & nationalistic purity ...

THINK PROGRESS
(http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/08/01/284011/pam-geller-race-mixing-breivik-right/)
Geller posts a picture of the youth camp children Breivik targeted. The picture was taken on the Utøya island camp about 24 hours (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019720/Norway-shooting-Utoya-summer-camp-photos-Anders-Behring-Breivik-massacre.html) before Breivik killed over 30 children, so it is likely Geller is mocking many of the victims.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/geller.jpg

eddhead
August 2nd, 2011, 09:04 AM
In the words of Zipppy ... moo.

ZippyTheChimp
August 2nd, 2011, 09:10 AM
Geller is starting to self destruct.

eddhead
August 2nd, 2011, 10:38 AM
I am not really sure that this is on topic, although I think it is certainly relevent. I found it thought provoking. Mods feel free to delete at your discretion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/opinion/02iht-edcohen02.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

The Racist Scourge

By ROGER COHEN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/columns/rogercohen/?inline=nyt-per)

LONDON — Soon after I was born my father moved our family from Britain back to his native South Africa to become dean of the school for black medical students at the University of the Witwatersrand. Blacks were obliged to live separately from whites, a principal reason for his having left Johannesburg in the first place.

There had been some troubles. He told the students he was handing them responsibility for their affairs. That helped settle things on campus. Outside was a different story. Much of my father’s time was spent going to police stations to negotiate the release of black students who had been detained for no reason by stupid white cops.

Once he arrived to hear an Afrikaner policeman scoffing at a young black woman who was close to qualification as a doctor: “You think you’re some clever student, but really you’re just a Kaffir.” (The insult is now legally actionable in South Africa.)

Racism is stupidity’s recourse. There are plenty of stupid people in the world. Apartheid survived for almost a half-century, a system based on the view that the only thing blacks were good for was to work as hewers of wood and drawers of water. It had its American parallels: Jim Crow laws were on the books for almost a century.

That was the first year of my life, with the black Wits students. My father returned with the family to England. We’d go back regularly to South Africa. I remember the jacarandas, the faraway horizons, the firm yellow peaches. Beauty was too abundant. A shadow lurked. That’s how I absorbed racism, like a twinge, the first hint of a dangerous microbe in your blood.

These things shape you. The Jews in South Africa tended to view the blacks as a large buffer against their own persecution even as they were more engaged than most in trying to break the system. It’s a grotesque thought, but if you’re busy persecuting tens of millions of blacks you don’t have much time left over for tens of thousands of Jews. This thought did occur to the Jews, whose families (many of Lithuanian origin), had fled European pogroms and so avoided the ditches to which Hitler’s Einsatzgruppen would have dispatched them.

As a South African Jew, watching blacks without passes being bundled into the back of police vans was discomfiting. But this was not mass murder after all. You tried to look away.

Racism is a mind game. It makes its victims grateful for small mercies until such time as they rise in uncontainable anger.

I was schooled early by South Africa in racism’s poison. The Michels, my maternal family, lived in a spread only half-jokingly referred to as Château Michel. From beach to pool to barbecue the living was large, with its undertow of disquiet.

I felt as an infant the I-might-drop-you hostility in a black maid’s arms. I wondered at the blacks swimming in a filthy harbor when whites-only sand stretched for miles. I caught the illicit glances as an adolescent, flirtation as crime. I listened to the meat-chomping justifications, bigotry dressed up as scientific theory.

Years later in Lagos, watching Fela Kuti in a disco where I was the only white among a thousand blacks, I understood the word “minority.” The thing I’ve been most grateful for in journalism is the ability to cross lines: of racism and bigotry, for example. The blacks in South Africa weren’t even a minority. They were a majority corralled into serfdom.

Over in England things were O.K. I got called a “yid” for a while at school. I look up Jew in the Oxford English Dictionary of the day. Definition 1: A person of Hebrew descent; a person whose religion is Judaism. Definition 2: A person who behaves in a manner formerly attributed to Jews; a grasping or extortionate person.” There you go.

Nothing makes my blood boil like racism. I got a lot of angry mail over a recent column about Norway’s rightist mass murderer and his sympathy with “racist Islamophobia.” Muslims are not a race, the writers claimed.

Funny, several of the angry notes were from Jews, who seemed to have forgotten that not being a race but a religion had scarcely saved Jews from racist persecution: Perhaps the Einsatzgruppen just got in a semantic muddle before opening fire. Perhaps the Malaysian soccer crowd who just booed Chelsea’s Yossi Benayoun, an Israeli player and a Jew, were not really racists. Dream on.

Hatred of Muslims in Europe and the United States is a growing political industry. It’s odious, dangerous and racist. Thanks to my colleague Andrea Elliott, we now know the story of the orchestration of the successful anti-Shariah campaign in the United States, led by a Hasidic Jew named David Yerushalmi who holds that “most of the fundamental differences between the races are genetic.” The rightists in Europe using anti-Muslim rhetoric are true heirs to the Continent’s darkest hours.

I’m glad that at an impressionable age my Dad told me of a dumb white cop with power telling a smart young black woman with promise she was “really just a Kaffir.” The settings change, the vile stupidity does not.

hbcat
November 29th, 2011, 08:45 AM
Insanity ruling not likely in Norway

Decision on Anders Behring Breivik's mental state will determine whether he can be held criminally liable
By IAN MacDOUGALL http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/sourceAP.gif

updated 2 hours 19 minutes ago 2011-07-31T14:15:31



On the other hand --

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/img/1_0_1/cream/hi/news/news-blocks.gif (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/)WORLD



29 November 2011 Last updated at 12:42 GMTNorway massacre: Breivik declared insanePsychiatrists assessing self-confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik have concluded that he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.
They believe he was in a psychotic state during the twin attacks on 22 July that led to the deaths of 77 people and injured 151.
He was also insane during the 13 interviews the two psychiatrists held with them, a news conference heard.
Breivik admits carrying out the attacks but has pleaded not guilty to charges.
He has previously said the attacks were atrocious but "necessary".
The two psychiatrists, in their report, concluded that he lived in his "own delusional universe where all his thoughts and acts are guided by his delusions".
Online manifestoThe 243-page report will be reviewed by a panel from the Norwegian Board of Forensic Medicine.
Breivik, 32, is due to stand trial on 16 April for a hearing scheduled to last around 10 weeks.
It is unclear if the conclusions of the report - if approved by the panel - will prevent the trial from going ahead in its current form.
It will almost certainly mean that Breivik is detained into psychiatric care rather than receiving a lengthy jail term.
Before the report was made public, a lawyer for the victims said it did not matter what the conclusion was as long as Breivik was not allowed to go free.
"What will happen in the case, no matter what the conclusion, is that he (Breivik) will of course be incarcerated," John Christian Elden said.
"And if the outcome is criminally sane or insane, that is, first and foremost a psychiatric question. The most important thing in our clients' opinion is that he will not be able to walk the streets."
Breivik has admitted carrying out the twin attacks on 22 July that also injured 151 people and traumatised the nation.
He disguised himself as a police officer to plant a car bomb that exploded close to government offices in the capital Oslo, killing eight people.
Still in uniform, he then drove to the island of Utoeya, where a summer youth camp of Norway's governing Labour Party was being held.
In a shooting spree that lasted more than an hour, he killed 69 people - mostly teenagers.
In a manifesto he published online, Breivik said he was fighting to defend Europe from a Muslim invasion, which was being enabled by what he called "cultural Marxists" in Norway's Labour Party, and the European Union.

Ninjahedge
November 29th, 2011, 09:10 AM
It comes down to this:

How "sane" can you be when you commit a horrible act such as this?

"Criminally insane" should always be looked at as a reason, not an excuse. IF it can be proven that this individual has been "rehabilitated", so be it, but it still does not absolve them of the crimes committed....


Difficult topic though. If someone committed something while "not in their right mind", what happens when we have a way to put them BACK in that "right mind" and KEEP them there? Do we try, or do we just stick them in the attic (mother?) or in a trunk under the main stairway?

ZippyTheChimp
November 29th, 2011, 09:41 AM
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/img/1_0_1/cream/hi/news/news-blocks.gif (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/)WORLD





29 November 2011 Last updated at 12:42 GMTNorway massacre: Breivik declared insaneTitle is incorrect.

As reported, psychiatrists stated that Breivik is a paranoid schizophrenic. Whether or not he is declared criminally insane and stands trial will be a legal decision.

stache
November 29th, 2011, 11:19 AM
Whatever, it was premeditated.

eddhead
November 29th, 2011, 01:08 PM
November 29, 2011

Norway Killer Found Insane, Unfit for Prison

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

OSLO, Norway (AP) — Confessed mass killer Anders Behring Breivik belongs in psychiatric care instead of prison, prosecutors said Tuesday after a mental evaluation declared him legally insane during a bomb-and-shooting rampage that killed 77 people.

The court-ordered assessment found that the self-styled anti-Muslim militant was psychotic during the July 22 attacks, which would make him mentally unfit to be convicted and imprisoned for the country's worst peacetime massacre.

The report, written by two psychiatrists who spent a total of 36 hours talking to Breivik, will be reviewed by a forensic panel before the Oslo district court makes a ruling on his mental state.

Their conclusions surprised many outside experts and contrasted with earlier comments by the head of the review board, who told The Associated Press in late July that it was unlikely that Breivik would be declared insane because the attacks were so carefully planned and executed.

But prosecutors insisted the psychiatric report describes a man living in a "delusional universe" — a paranoid schizophrenic who's lost touch with reality.
"After having read the documents of the case, the conclusion did not come as a surprise," Prosecutor Svein Holden told AP.

Breivik, 32, has confessed to setting off a bomb that ripped through Oslo's government district, killing eight people, then opening fire at the summer camp of the governing Labor Party's youth wing. Sixty-nine people died in the mayhem at Utoya island, outside the Norwegian capital, before Breivik surrendered to a SWAT team.

He denies criminal guilt, saying he's a commander of a resistance movement aiming to overthrow European governments and replace them with "patriotic" regimes that will deport Muslim immigrants.

Investigators have found no sign of such a movement and say Breivik most likely plotted and carried out the attacks on his own.

"The conclusion of the forensic experts is that Anders Behring Breivik was insane," Holden told a news conference in Oslo. "They conclude that Anders Behring Breivik during a long period of time has developed the mental disorder of paranoid schizophrenia, which has changed him and made him into the person he is today."

The two psychiatrists — Torgeir Husby and Synne Soerheim — met Breivik 13 times. Husby told AP that their conclusions were "clear" and unanimous.
Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad, who early on suggested his client was insane, told Norwegian broadcaster NRK that he wasn't surprised by the psychiatric assessment.

"It is obvious that the matter has taken a completely new turn," Lippestad said.

In Norway, an insanity defense requires that a defendant be in a state of psychosis while committing the crime with which he or she is charged. That means the defendant has lost contact with reality to the point that he's no longer in control of his own actions.

The 243-page report will be reviewed by a panel from the Norwegian Board of Forensic Medicine, which could ask for additional information and add its own opinions. The head of the panel, Dr. Tarjei Rygnestad, called the conclusions "interesting."

In July, Rygnestad said that a psychotic person typically struggles to perform even simple tasks like driving a car, and that the advanced planning and skills required for Breivik's attacks spoke against psychosis.

On Tuesday, Rygnestad told AP that his earlier comments were based on "secondary information" and that a person's mental state can only be determined through in-depth analysis. He said he had not read the full report yet, but maintained his assertion that psychotic people typically aren't able to carry out complex tasks that require intricate planning.

"Usually not. Then again, unusual things also happen," he said.

Frode Elgesem, a lawyer for the Labor Party's youth group, said the outcome of the evaluation was unexpected.

"What we have seen is dangerous and calculating man," Elgesem told AP. "That said the experts have a much broader basis for their conclusion. It is difficult to overrule that."

In neighboring Sweden, the forensic psychiatrist who examined the man who killed Foreign Minister Anna Lindh in 2003, expressed doubts about Breivik's diagnosis, given his extensive planning and the gruesome efficiency with which he slaughtered youth at Utoya. Disguised as a police officer, Breivik lured youths from their hiding places, then executed them. He also reportedly had calculated how many victims he would be able to kill before being arrested.

"It is difficult to see this as criminal insanity," Anders Forsman told AP. "He seems to have carried out the killings in a rational way. He is an efficient killing machine."

Holden said Breivik claims he committed the atrocities "out of love for his people" and describes himself as a crusader knight with special powers to decide "who is to live and who is to die." Breivik considers himself a future ruler of Norway and was planning to establish "breeding projects" for Norwegians, Holden said.

If declared mentally fit and convicted of terrorism, he would face up to 21 years in prison or an alternative custody arrangement that could keep him behind bars indefinitely.

Prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh said that if the courts declare him insane, he would be given three-year terms of psychiatric care that can extended for as long as necessary.

"If he is sentenced to compulsory mental health care, we are confident that the regulatory framework that exists is sufficient and appropriate to ensure for the needs of protection of society," she said.
___
Ritter contributed from Stockholm

KenNYC
December 1st, 2011, 02:07 PM
Gotta say I prefer the American definition of insane in regards to this. If you go with this definition of insane, pretty much every mass murderer would necessarily be insane.

If you understand the difference between right and wrong, you are sane enough to go to jail. And he clearly did that.

stache
December 1st, 2011, 02:44 PM
I am of the humble opinion that every mass murderer is ​insane.