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eddhead
August 1st, 2011, 10:53 AM
I'll probably get killed for this but J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets!!

eddhead
August 1st, 2011, 10:56 AM
Edwards had a teffific year last year, in fact you could argue that he played better than Holmes. I would have taken him over Burress in a heartbeat, but I guess they got Plaxico on the cheap.

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August 1, 2011, 8:15 am Why the Jets Picked Plaxico Burress Over Braylon EdwardsBy GEORGE BRETHERTON (http://wirednewyork.com/author/george-bretherton/) (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/jets/)
So the deed is done. The Jets made a big splash by signing wide receiver Plaxico Burress (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/sports/football/plaxico-burress-signs-with-jets.html?_r=1&ref=sports) to play opposite Santonio Holmes. Edwards, a key player for the Jets in the last two seasons, will not be back. And the speculation? It’s that the Jets wanted Burress over Edwards primarily to grab attention in the New York market and get one-up on the Giants, their co-tenants at the New Meadowlands Stadium. The reasoning hints that Edwards wasn’t flashy enough for the “Hard Knocks” Jets. They even gave Burress the No. 17 worn by Edwards.

It kind of makes sense that it’s all about the P.S.L.’s, right?

Except that it doesn’t. The simple reason in this salary cap era is that signing Burress was primarily about money. This was not about the Jets showing Edwards any disrespect. Was Edwards going to sign with the Jets for the reported $3 million it took to sign Burress? Nope. While the temptation is to compare Edwards to Burress, the more realistic comparison for Edwards is with Santonio Holmes, who signed a 5-year, $50 million contract. Even with Edwards’s recent legal issues, he should still be able to exceed $3 million in guaranteed money in the free-agent market. The Jets just can’t match that right now, especially since they needed to sign Antonio Cromartie (which they reportedly have (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2011/07/31/2011-07-31_new_york_jets_resign_antonio_cromartie_retain_c ornerback_within_24_hours_of_inki.html)) on a budget getting smaller by the day.

For the Jets, there is little financial risk with the Burress signing. The only one will be whether the offense will lose any of its potency without Edwards. It is a legitimate question. Burress, a dynamic player throughout his career, is nevertheless almost 34 and has not played in the N.F.L. in almost three years. The upside is that once he gets into game shape, Burress should pose many of the same matchup problems for opposing cornerbacks as Edwards did.

If the temptation is to say Edwards’s recent legal issues affected the Jets’ decision, that doesn’t ring true. By all accounts, Edwards turned the corner last year after his D.U.I. arrest. He was at his best late in the season and in the playoffs. Edwards’s problems with drops seemed to have largely disappeared. At age 28, Edwards is a complete player who is in his prime.

The Jets’ signing of Burress doesn’t change that. Whether or not Edwards can secure the free-agent contract he wants in the coming days remains to be seen. He didn’t help himself after a court hearing in Ohio last week resulted in an extension of his probation a (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/07/nfl_receiver_braylon_edwards_g.html)nd could have resulted in jail time. Even if Edwards can get a long-term deal, it is possible he won’t be able to command quite the same dollars.

Maybe Edwards should settle for a one-year contract. He could always test the market again next year, possibly with more leverage. And one year is a long time in the N.F.L. Just ask Holmes, who was in high demand in this free-agent market only 15 months after almost being released by the Steelers right before the Jets acquired him for a fifth-round draft pick.

eddhead
August 1st, 2011, 11:03 AM
Jets have lost some valuable contributers this year including Brad Smith and Drew Coleman. Cromartie can sometimes drive you crazy, but on balance he is a talanted playere. Considering they failed to sign Asomugha, this was huge.


http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=6822990&type=story

Sunday, July 31, 2011
Updated: August 1, 10:35 AM ET
Source: Antonio Cromartie, Jets agree
By Rich Cimini
ESPNNewYork.com

Rebounding from the Nnamdi Asomugha (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=4489) snub, the New York Jets (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyj/new-york-jets) moved to fill their vacant cornerback spot, coming to a contract agreement early Monday morning with Antonio Cromartie (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9605), according to a league source.
He will sign a four-year, $32 million contract, according to a league source -- $4 million per year less than Asomugha's deal with the Philadelphia Eagles (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/phi/philadelphia-eagles) and $1.75 million per year less than Johnathan Joseph (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9610)'s contract with the Houston Texans (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/hou/houston-texans). NFL Transactions Analysishttp://a.espncdn.com/i/teamlogos/leagues/med/trans/nfl.gif ESPN.com's division bloggers react to all the big NFL free-agent signings and trades throughout the frenzied post-lockout period. Blog (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/2011-nfl-free-agency)
• Insider: Instant analysis (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6801371/running-analysis-2011-nfl-free-agency-deals-signings) http://assets.espn.go.com/icons/in.gif
• Scouts Inc.: Free-agent tracker (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/fa)



The Jets appeared to be in a bind after losing out on Asomugha, who shocked many (including the Jets) by signing Thursday with the Eagles. If they had failed to re-sign Cromartie, it would've created a major issue in the defense.


The Jets will go into the 2011 season with the same tandem as last year, Cromartie and All-Pro Darrelle Revis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10458).


Though Cromartie drew strong interest from the Oakland Raiders (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/oak/oakland-raiders) and San Francisco 49ers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers), teams that would've made him the No. 1 corner, the six-year vet elected to stay in New York and took to Twitter early Monday morning.


"They say Cro is back, Cro is back all #GangGreen fans say is Cro...," Cromartie tweeted. "I'm on my FLT headed home glad 2 b a JET...let's go win a Superbowl."

The Jets have re-signed two of their Big Four free agents, Cromartie and wide receiver Santonio Holmes (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9611). They lost the versatile Brad Smith (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9689) to the Buffalo Bills (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/buf/buffalo-bills), and receiver Braylon Edwards (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8418) is unlikely to return now that wide receiver Plaxico Burress (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=2139) has agreed to a one-year deal with the team.


After missing out on Asomugha, retaining Cromartie became the Jets' best option to place on the other side of Revis. The Jets did not seem to think former No. 1 pick Kyle Wilson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=13237), coming off a shaky rookie year, was ready for a starting role.

Cromartie played well in 2010, especially over the first half of the season, but his inconsistency chafed the coaching staff at times.
He finished with three interceptions and recorded a team-high 18 pass break-ups, but he also committed the most penalties on defense and surrendered a team-high seven touchdown passes.


The Jets acquired Cromartie, 27, last year in a trade with the San Diego Chargers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sd/san-diego-chargers). The price was steep -- a second-round pick -- and it would've been embarrassing if they had lost him after only one year.


He was considered one of the rising talents in the league in 2007, when he was an All-Pro in his second season after getting an NFL-leading 10 interceptions, but struggled on and off the field. Cromartie's tackling was an issue in San Diego, but he vowed to get better when he came to New York, and clearly improved in that area although he led the defense in penalties.


Cromartie was also dealing with paternity issues at the time of the deal, with seven children by several women, but the Jets advanced him $500,000 to help clear that up. He has since married reality TV star and model Terricka Cason, and often tweets about the joys of family life and his faith.


The Jets reported for training camp at their facility in Florham Park, N.J., on Sunday, with their first practice scheduled for Monday afternoon.
"Ok guys taking off c u guys at Florham Park," Cromartie tweeted. "God Bless u all...Jet sailing 2 be a JET...goodnight 2 some and good morning to others I'm out."

eddhead
August 4th, 2011, 05:05 PM
Cotchery was a class act and a damn fine receivor. At this stage in his career, Mason can't touch him. But there is concern over his health, and the Jets will net about $2.5MM in salary cap space for a third receivor. Probably a good business move, but Cotchery deserved better.
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http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/with-mason-in-the-wings-cotchery-senses-his-time-has-passed/?hpw


August 4, 2011, 4:35 pm With Mason in the Wings, Cotchery Senses His Time Has PassedBy BEN SHPIGEL (http://wirednewyork.com/author/ben-shpigel/) (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/jets/)
FLORHAM PARK, N.J. — Resigned to his fate that he would be cut, Jerricho Cotchery’s thoughts Thursday drifted to an August afternoon in 2008. With Brett Favre en route to his introductory news conference in Cleveland as the Jets’ new quarterback, Chad Pennington stood before the Jets’ offense and, in one of his final acts as their starting quarterback, gave a heartfelt and emotional speech.

“It was a tough deal for a lot of people,” Cotchery said. “He was a great leader for this team, and he got released.”

Almost three years later exactly, his teammates were offering similar tributes to Cotchery. A scheduled visit to Jets headquarters Thursday by the free agent Derrick Mason foretold bad news for Cotchery, one of the team’s most dependable receivers and respected players.

Cotchery, 29, was bracing for his release, waiting only for Mason, 37, to pass his physical exam. Mason, familiar with Coach Rex Ryan from their time with the Baltimore Ravens, would supplant Cotchery as the Jets’ No. 3 receiver.

“He means the world to the team and the organization — I mean, from my eyes,” cornerback Darrelle Revis said.

Revis added: “He’s done a lot for this organization. He has a clean record. He’s not out here getting in trouble. He’s representing himself the right way. You’ve got to try to at least reward a guy, keep him on the team as long as you can because those guys, you want to try to replace them, but you really can’t.”

In seven seasons with the Jets, Cotchery evolved from special teamer to standout receiver, catching 358 passes for 4,514 yards and 18 touchdowns.

Perhaps his most memorable reception occurred last Nov. 14 in Cleveland, when he tore a muscle in his left groin early in a play but hopped nine times on his right foot to get open and made a crucial diving catch.

Cotchery missed two games with that injury and was also hampered by a herniated disd in his back, which required off-season surgery and landed him on the physically unable to perform list.

He said he expected to play soon, but for another team, not the Jets, the only organization he knows.

“Everyone wants that dream scenario where they want to play their entire career with one team,” Cotchery said. “But it doesn’t happen that often

ZippyTheChimp
August 4th, 2011, 06:06 PM
Maybe Burress will accidentally shoot Mason.

eddhead
August 4th, 2011, 06:55 PM
sigh. I think I am going to be very lonely in this thread. Or mocked brutally.

ZippyTheChimp
August 4th, 2011, 07:15 PM
There must be some Jets fans on this forum. Meanwhile, it might help if the coach dropped all the douchebaggery.

eddhead
August 4th, 2011, 09:39 PM
Say what you will about the couch, but under his leadership the team has made the AFC finals 2 years in a row. Considering where this franchise was, that is an accomplishment.
But if I were not a Jets fan I would probably feel the same way about him.

ZippyTheChimp
August 4th, 2011, 09:45 PM
Say what you will about the couch,Wow, talk about Freudian slips.

eddhead
August 5th, 2011, 09:27 AM
lol

eddhead
August 6th, 2011, 02:07 PM
It would seem the Jets had a choice regarding the following one year deals:

Edwards who had been in their system for 1.5 years and was coming off a terrific season - for $3.5MM
Burress who had been out of football for 2 yrs, will have to learn the Jets' system, and never had the kind of season Edwards had for $3MM

They went with Burress. I don't get it
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http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=6834727&type=story

SANTA CLARA, Calif. -- From one former Michigan man to another, Jim Harbaugh is asking Braylon Edwards to grow up and be accountable for his actions. Like they were taught in Ann Arbor.


Edwards is asking for a chance to contribute with the 49ers under Harbaugh.


San Francisco signed the wideout to a $3.5 million, one-year contract Thursday, and he joined his new team on the practice field for the first time -- albeit a little late and wearing No. 81, the number formerly worn by Terrell Owens.


Edwards
"Listen here, that number's temporary," declared Edwards, who has worn No. 17. "I'm not trying to be known as the next him."
The Niners announced the acquisition of Edwards shortly after practice began, then he emerged from the locker room less than an hour into the workout to join newly signed quarterback Alex Smith and the others.


"Pretty crazy in the middle of practice to see him run out and jump in there," Smith said. "It's just another addition to a strange year. It's great to see him. He's a great player. The more he can add to this team the better."


The 49ers will certainly count on the veteran receiver to make an immediate contribution for a franchise that hasn't had a winning record or reached the playoffs since 2002.


And they're counting on him staying out of trouble, too.


"He's hit some potholes," Harbaugh said. "You don't want that to spiral any further down. It's kind of time to start doing all the little things right, that he knows of and he's capable of. He's a good guy."


A Cleveland judge spared Edwards jail time last month, but extended his Ohio probation by one year for violating terms by driving drunk in New York City last September.


In January 2010, he pleaded no contest there to aggravated disorderly conduct after being accused of punching a friend of NBA star LeBron James.


While on his 18-month probation from the Cleveland case, Edwards was charged with driving while intoxicated in his Land Rover in Manhattan in September 2010. Police said his blood-alcohol level was twice the legal limit.


He also has been linked to a bar fight in Michigan on Monday night, though Edwards didn't want to go into details of what transpired, saying, "At the end of the day that situation will take care of itself."


Edwards was asked if he expects to face a suspension from commissioner Roger Goodell stemming from his run-ins with the law off the field. The two had yet to speak.


"I don't know what his ruling will be on the situation," Edwards said. "If there is one, then I respect it and I will gladly take it, and once it's over with move forward and look to help this team be good this year."


The 49ers liked his size: 6-foot-3, 214 pounds.


Michael Crabtree is sidelined at the start of training camp for the third straight year, nursing a left foot injury sustained during offseason workouts that has him sporting a walking boot. Crabtree has yet to live up to the hype around him after he was drafted 10th overall in 2009 out of Texas Tech. After a 71-day stalemate between Crabtree and the team, he agreed to a six-year deal with $17 million guaranteed.
Crabtree had 55 catches for six touchdowns and 741 yards last season. Josh Morgan and Ted Ginn Jr. are the two other regulars back from 2010, though neither has demonstrated the ability to carry the offense and consistently take pressure off running back Frank Gore.
"It's official," Edwards said. "We have moved to the bay. I'm a proud member of the San Francisco 49ers."


The 28-year-old Edwards made 53 receptions for 904 yards and seven touchdowns last season in his second year with the New York Jets. He spent his first five NFL seasons with Cleveland, making the Pro Bowl in 2007.


He began talking to the 49ers Monday, then visited team headquarters Wednesday.


"It just seemed like a good change of scenery. I've known Coach Harbaugh pretty much my whole life. He and my father played together, so that was another plus," Edwards said.


"I think I've put myself in some situations I'm to blame for and coming out here is a good, fresh start to get clean personally with people that I trust and with a team that's supporting me through what they know I'm going through," he said.
"When he played there and when I played there, we were taught how to be accountable, responsible, to know right from wrong. That's what I want to get back to, being the guy that can be accountable, that can be respected and who can be put in a position to thrive here and be a responsible guy for this organization."


Safety Donte Whitner also said on Twitter that he has joined San Francisco, then sent a tweet to Edwards.


"Bray I signed there today also...let's get a RING!"


The 26-year-old Whitner, the eighth overall pick out of Ohio State in 2006, ranked fifth in the NFL with 140 tackles last season for Buffalo and also had one forced fumble, an interception and half a sack. He apparently had been close to signing with the Cincinnati Bengals.
With the addition of Edwards, the Niners now have the No. 1 (Smith), No. 3 (Edwards) and No. 9 (cornerback Carlos Rogers) overall picks from the '05 draft.


Second-year safety Taylor Mays, a second-round draft pick out of Southern California last year, was on the field for practice amid reports the 49ers are reaching out to teams across the league in an effort to trade him.


Harbaugh acknowledged the 49ers have received inquiries about Mays over the past eight days.


Harbaugh said general manager Trent Baalke spoke to Mays.


"Taylor's a 49er," Harbaugh said. "There have been inquiries over the last eight days, enough to the point where you say, 'Let's check it out.' That's where we're at."

eddhead
September 11th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Not looking too good tonight. So far, the big difference between this team and the last two is the offensive line. They're just not as physically imposing as they have been in the past. They really miss Woody

eddhead
September 26th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Brutal game yesterday. Defense really disappointed and the o-line looked horrible. Sanchez was sacked 4x in the second half and was under pressure the whole game. They miss Woody; Wayne Hunter just can't block anybody, especially in pass coverage. Surprsingly, Colin Baxter was not horrible at C. Notwithstanding, this was a poor all around effort.

GordonGecko
September 26th, 2011, 11:45 AM
That O-line sucked, but the defense lost the game. I didn't realize Cro signed for the Raiders in the offseason, the guy had to have money on the game there's no way he could play that bad. Also Schottenheimer called a TERRIBLE second half, and Santonio Holmes called him out on it. "Schotty" as usual is wasting his considerable offensive weapons, can this clown finally get canned, PLEASE?

ZippyTheChimp
September 26th, 2011, 11:55 AM
Jets still don't have a defensive line that can be a major force. I thought they might have fixed that in the off-season.

You have to give some credit to the Raiders; they were an unknown factor coming into the game. They look like a good team.

eddhead
September 26th, 2011, 12:07 PM
I think the Defense generally let them down yesterday (not just the line) especially the run defense. The line played terribly but so did the LB's. Going into the game, they knew they had to maintain the edge on runs to the outside yet they still managed to fail miserably. And Scott is still looking for his jock strap after Moore's end run.

I have no idea what Cromartie was doing. 4 pass interference penalties? Their receivers are not that good.

Oakland is good, but they are one dimensional on offense. The Jets should have been able to shut them down

GordonGecko
September 26th, 2011, 02:07 PM
IMO the D just mailed it in this weekend because they didn't take the Raiders seriously. They saw the schedule and figured this was the easy game so they didn't show up and got embarrassed.

eddhead
October 12th, 2011, 01:46 PM
It looks like Kerley is the new fulltime slot receivor

October 11, 2011

After Five Games, Jets Part Ways With Mason


By BEN SHPIGEL (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/ben_shpigel/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and JUDY BATTISTA

The day after Rex Ryan said that Derrick Mason remained an important part of their offensive revival, the Jets shipped him to the Houston Texans late Tuesday night for a conditional draft pick.

Mason signed in August hoping to win the championship that has eluded him over a 15-year career, but his minimal production over the Jets’ first five games persuaded them that the rookie Jeremy Kerley, who caught a touchdown pass Sunday against New England, would be a better option.

The Jets did not announce the trade, but Mason confirmed in a text message that he had been dealt; he declined further comment. The team’s concerns about Mason, 37, were evident during their 30-21 loss to the Patriots (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sports/football/jets-stagger-against-patriots-dropping-third-straight.html?scp=6&sq=Jets&st=cse), when Kerley received the majority of snaps in three-receiver sets. Over all, Kerley appeared in 18 plays to Mason’s 6. Against the Patriots, Mason caught one pass, running his season total to 13 and putting him on pace for 41, well short of the Jets’ expectations.

“Let’s face it: I thought Derrick would catch 80-90 balls,” Ryan said Monday. “That hasn’t happened.”

Nor has the Jets’ offense performed as hoped, sputtering the last two games and producing an overall average of 297.4 yards, 28th in the N.F.L. Trading Mason provides a jolt, elevating the 23-year-old Kerley, whom the Jets have praised for his impressive practices and quick grasp of the offense. But it also thins out their receiving corps, leaving it vulnerable in the event of injury to the starters, Santonio Holmes or Plaxico Burress.
On Monday, Ryan stressed that Mason’s benching was unrelated to the critical comments he made Oct. 2 in Baltimore, when he said there were “cracks” in the team’s offense, or his appearance in a Daily News report (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2011/10/09/2011-10-09_jets_brian_schottenheimers_plan_questioned_by_p laxico_burress_santonio_holmes_ma.html) stating that he, Holmes and Burress had met individually with Ryan to complain about the team’s offensive system.

The Jets issued a statement dismissing the report. All three players denied it after Sunday’s game, as did Ryan, who emphatically refuted it again Monday, when Mason seemed part of their plans. Now he is not.

ZippyTheChimp
October 12th, 2011, 02:38 PM
Santonio Holmes, team captain.

How's that working out.

GordonGecko
October 12th, 2011, 04:32 PM
ask BS

ZippyTheChimp
October 12th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Hey Brian, would you come out from under that bus for a minute? I have a few questions.

eddhead
October 12th, 2011, 07:24 PM
Lol

At the end of the day it is on the head coach, not the OC. The Jets' big problem is the O-line. They cannot protect the qb, and they cannot open up holes for the running backs. Other than than they're doing a fine job.

GordonGecko
October 12th, 2011, 10:32 PM
Lol

At the end of the day it is on the head coach, not the OC. The Jets' big problem is the O-line. They cannot protect the qb, and they cannot open up holes for the running backs. Other than than they're doing a fine job.
You're right, if only the Jets had a better O-line, they could consistently call that 5-yard slant play on 3rd and 9 instead of having Greene run into a brick wall

ZippyTheChimp
October 13th, 2011, 08:31 AM
Now's when you find out how good a coach Ryan is.

Why is the line only 7?

eddhead
October 13th, 2011, 10:01 AM
Giants Still Own City’s Hearts, but Jets Are Closing in Fast
By WILLIAM C. RHODEN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/columns/williamcrhoden/?inline=nyt-per)[/h]EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J.

Lawrence Taylor, the great Giants linebacker, once said that Jets (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/newyorkjets/index.html?inline=nyt-org) fans were Giants fans who couldn’t get Big Blue season tickets. That might have been true once upon a time, but not anymore.

Sunday’s 30-21 loss at New England notwithstanding, the Jets have been hot under Rex Ryan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/rex_ryan/index.html?inline=nyt-per). But how hot and for how long?

Five games into the season, the Giants aren’t simply battling to win games and a playoff spot; Big Blue, a pillar of the N.F.L., is also battling to hold onto a dominant position over the Jets.

On the field, in the stands and in news media attractiveness, the Jets have had increased success the last two years. The most surprising aspect of the Jets’ surge is how the franchise has managed to cut into the Giants’ traditional stranglehold on buzz, news media exposure and public preference without having won championships.

So how is it that the Jets have gained such significant ground? The answer lies in Ryan.

Ryan is the N.F.L.’s latest P. T. Barnum, with outrageous claims and a penchant for drama. Two summers ago, HBO’s “Hard Knocks” introduced Ryan to the world and brought the Jets national attention. In the last two seasons, Ryan has taken the Jets further than Tom Coughlin has taken the Giants. The Giants have missed the last two postseasons; the Jets have reached consecutive conference championship games.

After last season, Ryan declared his team the Giants’ “big brother.”

“The Jets have caught up, if not in a broad, deep-seated way; they have created fan excitement,” said Rich Golden, the president of HN Media and Marketing. “Giants fans are loyal in a more institutional way, but now the Jets are on par with the Giants. The Jets with Rex Ryan have solidified their base.”

There are a number of ways to measure franchise popularity.

According to Nielsen, last season, more television viewers in the New York media market tuned in to Jets games than Giants games. The Jets averaged a 15.8 local rating during the regular season compared with a 15.7 for the Giants.

So far this season, the Jets have moved ahead of the Giants in average attendance, 78,768 to 78,470; it that holds up, it would be the first time the Jets have outdrawn the Giants since they began sharing a stadium in 1984.

The Giants do retain some advantages.

According to Forbes magazine, the Giants are valued at $1.30 billion, fourth highest in the league for the fourth year in a row, compared with the Jets at $1.22 billion, good for fifth, up a spot from the 2010 rankings.

Michael Stevens, the Giants’ chief marketing officer, said the team ranked in the N.F.L.’s top three in sponsorship and ticket revenue. Jennifer Renda, a senior market specialist at the media buyer UM, told Sports Business Daily that the Jets and the Giants “command $50,000 to $70,000 for a 30-second local television spot.” She predicted that the Jets would eventually “edge out the Giants and command 10 percent to 15 percent more.”

And according to Scarborough Sports Research, in the past year, 40 percent of adults in the New York area watched, listened to or attended a Giants game, compared with 37 percent for the Jets; the gap was 8 percentage points in 2009.

“We are focused on ourselves,” Stevens said. “We are focused on our games, our fans, our coach. Our rivals are Dallas, Washington Philadelphia. All the other stuff with the Jets is just fun.”

The fact that the two franchises share a stadium — MetLife — defuses some of the animosity among the players. In fact, in many ways the Jets and the Giants are more business partners than rivals.

Jimmy Kennedy, a Giants defensive tackle and a native of Yonkers, said the spirit of partnership trumped the Jets-Giants rivalry. “True New Yorkers are rooting for the Giants just like they’re rooting for the Jets,” he said. “When they battle each other — that’s when the separation comes.”

Which team “owns” the city?

“It depends on who you ask,” said Kennedy, whose father loves the Giants and whose uncle was a fan of the Jets. “I’m biased, but the respect for the Jets is always there.”

Kareem McKenzie, a mainstay on the Giants’ offensive line, was drafted by the Jets in 2001 and played with them for four seasons. He joined the Giants as a free agent in 2005 and won a Super Bowl (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/super_bowl/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) ring for the 2007 season. He subscribes to the idea that the Jets have to win a championship before they can talk about pulling even with the Giants.

“Realistically, I think they have to win two,” McKenzie said. “They have had a long drought. They have been talking about winning a Super Bowl for a long time. They were talking about it when I was there.”

Punter Steve Weatherford is another Jet turned Giant, signing with the Giants after two seasons with the Jets.

“When I got here, Giants fans were asking me what it was like to have been on the dark side,” Weatherford said.

For all that has contributed to the perception that the Jets have gained ground on the Giants, the element the Jets cannot match is tradition. The Giants helped the N.F.L. gain credibility in 1925 by establishing a team in New York. Tim Mara paid $500 for the franchise because he thought that having exclusive rights to anything in New York was worth the price. The Giants had that exclusivity until the Titans, who would become the Jets, began play in the A.F.L. in 1960.

The Jets won the Super Bowl in 1969. The Giants won Super Bowls in 1987, 1991 and 2008 and N.F.L. championships in 1927, 1934, 1938 and 1956.

“There is so much more history here,” Weatherford said. “When you think of New York football, as an outsider, the first thing I would think of would be the New York Giants (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/newyorkgiants/index.html?inline=nyt-org) because they have been here forever.”

Five decades later, however, the Jets have nearly pulled even.

Nearly.

“I think Rex is going to have to get a couple rings,” Weatherford said. “At the end of the day, what we’re all judged on is our track record.”
Ryan’s team is winning the war of words and the battle for the public’s hearts and minds, but the Jets have to continue to win games. They fell to 2-3 on Sunday, but the Giants stumbled and lost to the Seattle Seahawks, 36-25, and are 3-2.

“The Giants can afford to have one or two off years,” Golden said. “The Jets don’t have that luxury. They have to keep winning to continue to build their fan base.”

As Kennedy left the Giants’ locker room last week, he summed up the Jets.

“We can talk here about Giants versus Jets, but I think it comes down to who’s doing what on the field, who’s really making noise and not just talking about it, “ he said. “When it’s all said and done, in the last 10 years, who gave you more championships? Now look at the last 20 years: who gave you more championships? So whose city is it?”

ZippyTheChimp
October 13th, 2011, 10:27 AM
The trouble with this is stability.

The Giants fan base seems to be capable of weathering bad stretches and remain intact. The Jets went to the playoffs the last two years, and here they are in a crisis at the 1/3 mark of the season.

eddhead
October 13th, 2011, 10:46 AM
Well, they're still showing up, but we'll see what happens if the slump continues. This will be a big week for the Jets.

GordonGecko
October 13th, 2011, 12:48 PM
Well, they're still showing up, but we'll see what happens if the slump continues. This will be a big week for the Jets.
Definitely big for the Jets to come out and dominate the Dolphins. If they lose then there's not much hope for the season. Right now they're in full damage control mode trying to cover up the internal discord over Brian Schottenheimer. Everybody is expected to fall in line and play their role, so if they lose on Monday the sh** is really going to hit the fan

eddhead
October 18th, 2011, 11:01 AM
BIg win for the Jets although an ugly one. Still some good things to build on especially if you look past the 1st qtr. Pass protection was better, and although the commentators disagreed, I thought sanchez played well in qtrs 2,3 and 4. They also ran the ball better in late in the game. They have to get Plaxico involved.

I would love to see more of McKight in the offence, either in the slot, or out of the backfield.

San Diego is next at home. Should be a big test.

ZippyTheChimp
October 18th, 2011, 02:31 PM
The only positive I saw was a W .

Dolphins are the deadest of the dead. They are playing for Luck.

I don't blame them. Since Dan Marino retired, they've started more QBs than any other team.

eddhead
October 18th, 2011, 02:53 PM
under the curcumstances, I will take it.

ZippyTheChimp
October 18th, 2011, 03:13 PM
I understand that. It was a must-have W.

eddhead
October 22nd, 2011, 08:09 PM
OCTOBER 20, 2011, 10:00 AM

Defending Mark Sanchez’s Performance


By GEORGE BRETHERTON
3,663 yards, 24 TDs, 13 INTs, 56.1 completion percentage (296 comp., 528 attempts)


Is playing quarterback in the New York market the most difficult job in professional sports? Possibly. For starters, until a quarterback wins a championship, he is never good enough. Any quarterback who has ever played in New York already knows that.


And if a quarterback has won? Criticism is still never more than one bad game away. Just ask Eli Manning, Phil Simms or Joe Namath.


But let’s get back to Sanchez. If someone had told Jets fans at the beginning of this season that he would finish 2011 with the numbers listed above, would they have signed up for it? My guess is yes. Despite the fact that Sanchez absorbed a heavy beating during the first few games — his 14 sacks are tied for the 9th most in the N.F.L. — the mostly impressive numbers listed above represent the pace Sanchez is setting.


Through the Jets’ first six games, Sanchez has already thrown for 1,372 yards, with 9 touchdowns and 5 interceptions.


And don’t forget the 3-3 Jets have already played games at New England, where the Patriots have won 20 consecutive regular-season home games, and at Baltimore, which is 22-5 since John Harbaugh became coach in 2008.


Let’s take a closer look.


Want to talk about Sanchez’s 9 touchdown passes so far? If so, you should know that it ranks tied for eighth in the N.F.L., with Pittsburgh’s Ben Roethlisberger, Philadelphia’s Michael Vick and Tennessee’s Matt Hasselbeck. Eighth out of 32 teams? If you do the math, that ranks in the top quarter of the league.


And want to talk of Sanchez’s 5 interceptions in 198 attempts? According to Pro-Football-Reference.com, Sanchez’s interception percentage of 2.5 ranks 12th in the N.F.L. And of the 12 quarterbacks who have more pass attempts, only four — Detroit’s Matthew Stafford, Green Bay’s Aaron Rodgers, Chicago’s Jay Cutler and Cleveland’s Colt McCoy — have thrown fewer than Sanchez’s five interceptions.


In another key statistic, Sanchez is tied for 11th (with Roethlisberger) with 20 completions of 20 or more yards.


Sanchez’s biggest and most notable problems have come early in games. The Jets have not had a first down in the first quarter since their game at Oakland in Week 3, which was also when they scored their last first-quarter touchdown.


That needs to change for the Jets to continue to win games.


But Sanchez’s performance has been better than he is being given credit for.


Are you ready to talk some football? Join the discussion on this and other topics with George Bretherton and Bret Leuthner tonight from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. Click here to listen in or call us at (609) 910-0687.

eddhead
October 24th, 2011, 09:53 AM
Not a must game, but certainly a very big win for the Jets yesterday and something to build upon. 2nd half was good as it gets for this team. They ran the ball effectively stepped up on D, and Sanchez had a much better garme than the stats would suggest. Buffalo's up next. Should be a good one. Too bad I will miss it (going away for 2 weeks)

GordonGecko
October 24th, 2011, 11:46 AM
Kyle Wilson is really starting to earn his keep. Apparently he spent a lot of the offseason bunking and training with Darelle in Arizona, +1 for him. The secondary protection yesterday was exceptional, I think vjax had somehting like 1 catch for 15 yards - totally shut down on revis island. Mark played a good game and was allowed to call some audibles and change up the plays, but they still need to take off the chains and let him throw downfield more. If I see another 5 yard slant call on 3rd & long I'm going to throw my TV out the friggen window

eddhead
October 24th, 2011, 03:51 PM
I hear ya on the 3rd down calls... that is shotty for you. Secondary was outstanding yesterday and i agree with you on Wilson who is really starting to show up. But they need to work on the pass rush. Still a really good effort and something to build on.

GordonGecko
October 24th, 2011, 06:10 PM
I hear ya on the 3rd down calls... that is shotty for you. Secondary was outstanding yesterday and i agree with you on Wilson who is really starting to show up. But they need to work on the pass rush. Still a really good effort and something to build on.
Maybin has stepped up in that role, but the Jets need another guy in there that can get those sacks

eddhead
November 14th, 2011, 11:26 AM
The Jets sucked last night. They were ill-prepared, made mistakes on both sides of the ball, and generally played flat. Not to take anything away from the Pats who really stepped up, but the Jets really disappointed.

And when are they ever going to throw a ball downfield? I mean what is the point of paying Holmes all that money to do nothing but slants?

GordonGecko
November 14th, 2011, 11:50 AM
And when are they ever going to throw a ball downfield? I mean what is the point of paying Holmes all that money to do nothing but slants?
It's ok because Schottenheimer is a genius. It's too advanced for is to understand

eddhead
December 5th, 2011, 12:39 PM
Very sloppy game yesterday, but a 'W' nonetheless. Still, they have to play better than this.

Defense stepped up in the second half, although Grossman was horrible. The TD pass to Holmes is something I have been dying to see all year. Take a chance and throw it downfield outside the numbers to your wideouts. Holmes is one of the better deep threats in the league, and we just don't take advantage of him. No wonde the guy has an attitude.

eddhead
December 12th, 2011, 09:39 AM
Almost a pefect weekend for the Jets. Their win, combined with lossess to Tennessee, Oakland, and Cinncinnati, resulted in the Jets moving up to the 6th seed (and final playoff spot) in AFC. They now have thier destiny in their own hands.
If only Chicago could have held out against Denver.... Oh well, we'l take it.

GordonGecko
December 12th, 2011, 11:09 AM
Well the Bears got Tebow'd. Doesn't really matter since someone is going to win that division, and the Jets lose the tiebreaker with both the Broncos and Raiders. Raiders can't stop a nosebleed right now, they'll probably finish up 1-2 at best. Broncos face New England this weekend. Jets should be ok going 2-1 but make it 3-0 and they're in for sure. Eagles / Giants / Dolphins coming up, all very winnable (especially now with Moore taking an active role on OC)

eddhead
December 12th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Bears didn't get Tebow'd - the Bears got Beared.

It never ceases to amaze me why teams who do such a good job of stopping the Broncos for 3 qtrs using their stock defenses, move into a soft zone in the 4th (including the Jets). Two things Tebow has proved: 1. He can't move his team against NFL defenses playing man and tight zone coverages. 2. He can move the ball against prevent-type defenses. Yet every week these teams fall into the same trap and do the same ridiculous thing in the 4th qtr.,(playing that soft zone) It is maddening to watch.

And Marion Barber imploding before our eyes didn't help.

GordonGecko
December 12th, 2011, 02:23 PM
Exactly, the Bears got Tebow'd :p

eddhead
December 19th, 2011, 10:24 AM
Good God. The Jets handled the football like it was infected with bubonic plague yesterday, especially Holmes. And they cannot cover the tight end. Despite it all, their playoff destiny is still in their own hands. But they don't deserve it.

GordonGecko
January 1st, 2012, 04:18 PM
So long Schitty. It's been, well, Schitty.

eddhead
January 2nd, 2012, 12:42 PM
What a disappointment. You're right, he's gone. I am not too sure about Sanchez either.

ZippyTheChimp
January 2nd, 2012, 02:40 PM
Couch Ryan needs to grow up.

GordonGecko
January 3rd, 2012, 11:56 AM
Jets have somehow managed to become the Mets. What a disaster

eddhead
January 3rd, 2012, 12:13 PM
It is a bit different in that the Jets are at least willing and able to invest inm their team. But the situation is bad. I don't see how Homles can ever regain the trust and respect of his teamates, but given the guaranteed money and salary cap restrictions, I don't see how the Jets can cut him either. There are just no good answers.

In retrospect, Braylon Edwards was probably the better alternative to pay money out to.

GordonGecko
January 3rd, 2012, 01:32 PM
Actually you just made my point, until Madoff the Mets had the 2nd highest payroll in their sport. They just didn't know how to spend it and kept a lot of very bad employees on the payroll for unknown reasons until they drove the team into the ground. Sound familiar?

GordonGecko
January 10th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Christmas strikes again, HO HO HO

Chris Mortensen @mortreport 4m Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
The Jets have announced OC Brian Schottenheimer has decided to part ways with the team. #Jets #NFL32

eddhead
January 11th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Yeah, and now we have Tony Sparano because he did so well with the Miami offense. I woud rather have Tony Soprano. At least he'ld shoot somebody.

ZippyTheChimp
January 11th, 2012, 05:14 PM
Jets have somehow managed to become the Mets. What a disasterThe Jet situation has a few advantages over that of the Mets.

1. The Jets will be more competitive in the AFC East next year than the Mets will be in the NL East, unless you think that Sanchez is a total bust, which is way too early to come to that conclusion. Sanchez had the misfortune of having that great playoff game against the Chargers in his rookie year, and instead of seeing it as potential, the coaches seem to have seen it as arrival. They turned the offense into a passing attack, and handed it over to Sanchez. He was not ready. Another young QB, Matt Ryan, has had no success in the playoffs. But after one series in the Giants games, he was screaming at his linemen on the sidelines. He owns the team. I've never seen Sanchez do that.

The Mets will have to fight to stay out of the cellar.

2. The Jets have Derelle Revis. The Mets don't have Jose Reyes.

3. The Jets are in a much better financial situation than the Mets. The NFL is a national sport, and each NFL team starts out with about $80 million profit from the revenue pie. No matter how crappy they play, the Jets and Giants will fill up the stadium. The fans may bitch and moan, but they'll go to the games, and buy the brand.

The Mets have to borrow money from MLB to meet payroll. They'll struggle to attract fans for 80 games under relentless pressure from the Yankees.

eddhead
March 10th, 2012, 05:40 PM
I am having a hard time understanding what he did to warrant a contract extension. He may yet turn out to be worthy but at least let him prove it first. I really don't get this.



March 9, 2012


With Extension to Sanchez, Jets Give Up on Manning


By BEN SHPIGEL


The Jets committed to a franchise quarterback on Friday night — their own. They bowed out of the Peyton Manning sweepstakes with a flourish, agreeing with Mark Sanchez on a new five-year contract that could be worth as much as $68.5 million. It is a handsome reward for a player whose progress stagnated last season, when the Jets lost the final three games and missed the playoffs.


“I’m excited that the Jets believed in me and I’m a guy they want to move forward with in the future,” Sanchez said in a conference call, his first public comments since Jan. 2, the day after the Jets’ season ended.


The sides had been negotiating for weeks, said General Manager Mike Tannenbaum, even as the Jets debated whether to pursue Manning, who was released Thursday by the Colts. Calling it an obligation, Tannenbaum said he “looked into the possibility” of signing Manning, an exploration that could be construed as sending mixed messages: Sanchez is the Jets’ quarterback unless, of course, they could land a better one.


“It’s something they have to do,” Sanchez said. “The best part about it is they chose to stick with me.”


Sanchez’s third season did not end in the A.F.C. championship game, as it did his first two years. It ended with an 8-8 record, rampant dysfunction and a disgruntled receiver, Santonio Holmes (on Friday, Sanchez called reports of their strife overblown and said that he has spoken regularly this off-season with Holmes). It ended with his throwing three interceptions in the season finale against Miami, with anonymous teammates and prominent personalities criticizing his work ethic soon after. The Jets had expected Sanchez to make significant improvements last season, and he did not. Tannenbaum, asked what convinced him that extending Sanchez was the right move for the organization, cited Sanchez’s over all performance.


“It’s not a projection, it’s not a hope, it’s not an incremental leap of faith, it’s, ‘Here’s a three-year body of work,’ ” Tannenbaum said. “That said, we don’t have blinders on. It has to get better, and we think it will get better.”


To varying degrees of persuasiveness, Tannenbaum and Coach Rex Ryan have consistently expressed confidence in Sanchez, even as teammates ripped him anonymously and fans called for his job, even as it became apparent that Manning would be available. That the Jets looked elsewhere, even briefly, said more than the vague answers proffered at news conferences. At least until Friday night.


The extension lasts for three years beyond his original rookie contract, of which there were two years remaining. Sanchez is guaranteed $20.5 million over the first two years, according to a person with knowledge of the terms. He will make $58.25 million over all and can earn an extra $10 million via escalating clauses.


By now, the Jets know what they have in Sanchez, for better or for worse. His body of work stands at 53 games, four playoff victories included. His accuracy remains an issue, and his leadership has been questioned. But there is no solid evidence, not yet anyway, to prove Sanchez cannot win a Super Bowl, or follow a career arc similar to Eli Manning, who reached elite status later in his career than most.


By committing to Sanchez, the Jets are betting that he will soar under a new offensive coordinator, Tony Sparano, and a new run-oriented approach. They are betting that they can surround Sanchez with enhanced talent, with better protection, a speedy running back, a play-making receiver. They are also betting in Ryan that he can coax the Super Bowl he has guaranteed from a quarterback who has visited its doorstep.


When Sanchez steps back into the locker room this spring, teammates can rightly view him as a fallback option, albeit one with the richest contract in team history. That gulf, between what Sanchez earns, his status as face of the franchise, and how he is perceived by his own teammates, is growing wider. Rarely has a player won as much as Sanchez and still faced so much doubt. That doubt will disappear only when Sanchez wins a Super Bowl for them. They gave him three more years to do so.


Peyton-palooza touched down in Denver Friday for the first visit of Manning’s free-agent tour. Manning spent almost six hours at the Broncos’ training facility and was expected to spend the night in Denver. The Broncos, who captivated the N.F.L. last season when they made the playoffs with Tim Tebow at quarterback, are said to be a serious contender for Manning, who would allow team executive John Elway to gracefully transition the team away from the option offense it had to run with Tebow, without alienating the hordes of Tebow fans who clamored for him to start last season.


Manning flew with Elway, Coach John Fox and other members of the Broncos’ staff on owner Pat Bowlen’s private jet.


Manning, the league’s only four-time most valuable player, was released on Thursday, but is expected to move quickly to choose his new team, perhaps before full free agency opens on Tuesday, and is expected to visit Arizona and Miami, perhaps this weekend.


Interest in Manning, arguably the biggest free agent in N.F.L. history, has reached such a pitch that when he landed in Miami after being released by the Colts — he has a home there — his car was followed by helicopters and reporters on the road (the Dolphins have expressed an interest in Manning).


His arrival on a private plane in Denver was caught by cameras as a handful of fans gathered at the Broncos’ complex to greet him. Once Manning makes his choice, the attention will turn to Matt Flynn, the Packers backup who will be a sought-after free agent.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/sports/football/with-extension-to-sanchez-jets-give-up-on-manning.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=print

GordonGecko
March 10th, 2012, 09:11 PM
It clears up about $5M of cap space for this year, Jets have a lot of needs and they will need as much as possible to sign guys. Peyton said no to the Jets so the Jets really are stuck with Sanchez right now. His AAV for the next 5 years is now something like $11.5M. I agree it sends the wrong message to him (confirmed by his quote "it shows I'm the leader") but whatever. With Schottenheimer gone he has only upside potential from here

ZippyTheChimp
March 10th, 2012, 10:04 PM
I am having a hard time understanding what he did to warrant a contract extension.No wonder. Poor article, since they didn't analyze the contract.


Breaking down Sanchez’s “lipstick and powder” contract

Posted by Mike Florio on March 10, 2012, 1:22 PM EST

Yes, Jets quarterback Mark Sanchez will earn $20.5 million in guaranteed money in 2012 and 2013 as part of his new contract. The fact, however, that Sanchez already was due to earn $17.75 million over the next two seasons has prompted one league source to characterize the move as a “lipstick and powder” deal.

For an extra $2.75 million, Sanchez gave the Jets three straight option years, allowing the team to keep him if he finally realizes his full potential — and to cut him without further investment after the 2013 season, the 2014 season, or the 2015 season.

The contract also could be called a glorified restructuring. Per a source with knowledge of the details, Sanchez’s $11.75 million base salary for 2012 has been converted to an $8 million signing bonus, a fully-guaranteed base salary of $3.25 million, and a $500,000 workout bonus.

The move creates $6.4 million in 2012 cap space.

In 2013, Sanchez will receive a fully-guaranteed base salary of $8.25 million. In 2014, Sanchez is due to receive a $2 million roster bonus on the 15th day of the league year and a non-guaranteed $9 million base salary. In 2015, there’s another $1 million roster bonus due on the 15th day of the league year, plus a non-guaranteed base salary of $12.5 million. In 2016, Sanchez is due another $1 million roster bonus on the 15th day of the league yeaar, plus a base salary of $10.75 million. Workout bonuses of $500,000 apply in each year of the deal.

The contract contains $10 million in potential escalators, based in part on Super Bowl appearances and/or victories.

Given the organization’s apparent mixed feelings about Sanchez, getting the extra money and converting all of it to a guaranteed payment was a good career move. He could have been dumped after 2012, with the $6 million due next year forever gone.

Still, it likely wasn’t an accident that the news of this one came late on a Friday night. It’s hardly a big-money, long-term commitment.

Which actually will be regarded by plenty of Jets fans as good news.

Copyright © 2010-2012 NBC Sports

eddhead
March 12th, 2012, 10:24 AM
Interesting but I am not completely sure I understand it. I thought that most of the $17.75 due on the previous contract was not guaranteed, and that the bulk of the $20MM on the new contract is guaranteed. I understand that the Jets get cap relief in 2013 (assuming he would not have been cut) but I am not sure how this helps them over the long haul.

ZippyTheChimp
March 21st, 2012, 09:07 AM
I understand that the Jets get cap relief in 2013 (assuming he would not have been cut) but I am not sure how this helps them over the long haul.Contract readjustment is usually a negative at the backend, so you don't see it so much on teams with a lot of building to do.

The Jets are close, though. The QB has become a big part in NFL success, so a lot rides on Sanchez; but they were 8-8 last year and just missed the playoffs. Sanchez has two years to get it done, or he'll probably be cut.

What I don't understand is what the Jets are doing with this talk of interest in Tim Tebow. If they really want to trade for him, it's just dumb. If they're letting the rumors play out in the media just to motivate Sanchez, that could blow up.

eddhead
March 21st, 2012, 10:43 AM
I don't agree with the interestin Tebow either. On the other hand, remember it was Sparano who re-introduced the wildcat to the NFL a few years back with Ronnie Brown. Maybe they can see Tebow in that role. But I don't like it.

ZippyTheChimp
March 21st, 2012, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure they were ever seriously interested in Manning, so I take the Tebow thing the same way. Send a message to Sanchez that his job is not secure.

eddhead
March 21st, 2012, 01:55 PM
March 21, 2012

Jets Acquire Tebow in Trade With BroncosBy BEN SHPIGEL (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/ben_shpigel/index.html?inline=nyt-per)Tebowmania is headed to New York. In a move that diversifies their offense but threatens to undermine Mark Sanchez, the Jets (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/newyorkjets/index.html?inline=nyt-org) on Wednesday traded for Tim Tebow (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/tim_tebow/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the popular but polarizing quarterback from the Denver Broncos.

Tebow was made expendable when the Broncos signed Peyton Manning this week. The Jets received Tebow and a seventh-round pick in the deal, and sent a fourth- and a sixth-round pick to Denver. Tebow will ostensibly run only a handful of plays per game, but the Jets view him as a component of their new run-oriented offense, engineered by the first-year coordinator Tony Sparano, who popularized the Wildcat formation when he was the head coach of the Miami Dolphins.

In helping to guide Denver to an A.F.C. West title last season, Tebow authored several last-minute comebacks, including a 95-yard drive that silenced the Jets on Nov. 17. That success, achieved despite an unconventional style and limited throwing skills, could divide a fan base with the first poor — or even average — performance by Sanchez.

The Jets recently affirmed their loyalty to Sanchez, after briefly flirting with Manning, by giving him a new five-year contract (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/sports/football/with-extension-to-sanchez-jets-give-up-on-manning.html) with $20.5 million guaranteed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/sports/football/jets-acquire-tebow-in-trade-with-broncos.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=print

ZippyTheChimp
March 21st, 2012, 05:28 PM
Praise the Lord!

Wait a minute (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2012/03/21/tim_tebow_traded_from_broncos_to_jets/)

GordonGecko
March 21st, 2012, 05:30 PM
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/543263859.jpg?key=480360&Expires=1332365349&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=XusEGRLXrxgcouMCRiqjyhUTV6vbvdYAvQktVZv-ynk3MSEcwBV~LDftS3CLH7OObcKeorvb3YikdXVOub5BCSTzJp gqXYLbDpAITgVvkCB1dhyzT1iTxDtEK0Yz4b7eEjKMwa~tR8NC HrBs-tKO4Gmr6Wur6evOR9RKfBvOKAk_

eddhead
March 21st, 2012, 06:39 PM
Hold the presses, the trade is officially on hold! http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/stor...ge-source-says (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7718133/tim-tebow-trade-hits-snag-contract-language-source-says) See also my post under NYC Guide for New Yorkers

BBMW
March 22nd, 2012, 11:16 AM
They worked out the wrinkle. The deal is done.

Jets fans are just going to have to learn to assume the position :p

ZippyTheChimp
March 22nd, 2012, 11:39 AM
Thank you, Jesus...





for making me a Giants fan.

eddhead
March 22nd, 2012, 01:32 PM
What a mess.

ZippyTheChimp
March 23rd, 2012, 06:10 PM
http://www.flyingcortes.com/images/links_graphics/bac_logo_01.gif

ZippyTheChimp
May 25th, 2012, 12:15 PM
Two months until training camp opens, and Tebow already threw two INTs.

eddhead
May 25th, 2012, 01:28 PM
at least he wasn't sacked ;)

ZippyTheChimp
August 14th, 2012, 10:19 AM
The Jets hold a secret no-press-allowed workout. Something to do with the Wildcat. Is there something about it we don't already know?

Tom Coughlin says, "They can kiss my ass!"

eddhead
September 23rd, 2012, 08:24 PM
That was really ugly.

It is easy to blame Sanchez for what is an extremely dysfunctional offense but it is apparent to me that the whole offense is out of whack. The Jets desperately need a dependable no.2 WR; Hill has a ton of potential but he is not ready for prime time yet. This is especially the case now with Keller on the sidelines; they just don't have a reasonable alternative to Holmes who looks to be the only receiver on the team who knows how to run a route. And the O-line is a mess.

eddhead
September 24th, 2012, 04:18 PM
It looks like Revis is done for the year with a torn ACL. You can't emphesize enough just how important he is to this d. Not only is he their best player, but the whole defense scheme is based on him covering the other team's best receiver in man, freeing up resources to blitz. This is a huge loss.

eddhead
September 30th, 2012, 04:26 PM
I find myself doing a lot more Sunday drinking lately...

At least the Yankees came back.

ZippyTheChimp
October 3rd, 2012, 09:20 AM
Woody Johnson thinks it's more important for Mitt Romney to be president than the Jets winning the Super Bowl.

Making a public statement like that is wrong on many levels.

eddhead
October 3rd, 2012, 10:17 AM
Just one of several things wrong with the Jets.

So now Holmes looks to be out for the year. It shouldn't make much of a difference to the Jets who don't look to be going anywhere (unless the D REALLY steps up), but this is bad news for Sanchez whose career is riding on how he does this year. To that extent, Sanchez is really up against it; he is off to an auspicious start, and other than Keller (and maybe Kerley) who may or may not be back this week, he has no real dependable receivers, and a spotty line. To compound the issue, the Jets don't appear to be able to run the ball effectively.

I am not completely sold on Sanchez, but I am not ready to write him off either. He has the tools, and has had some success in the league. Unfortunately for him on a 'make-or-break' season, he doesn't really have the tools around him to standout, especially now.

TREPYE
October 3rd, 2012, 10:35 AM
Him flippling the ball to the defender because he was in so much [apparently self-inflicted] pain that he did have the toughness to just hold on to the football will go down in my book as one of the most sissiest plays I have ever seen in a field.

One thing is having talent and a ten-cent head; but to also bear the heart of a mouse, thats a very unique and pathetic combination. Pittsburg knew what they were doing, Tannenbaum and Co. are just clueless.

ZippyTheChimp
October 3rd, 2012, 12:13 PM
Why are you posting here? Aren't you a Giants fan? ;)

eddhead
October 3rd, 2012, 12:53 PM
I agree with him though - at least in with regard to the observation about tossing the ball into the air.

It is hard to criticize a player who is writhing on the ground in agony, but I have to admit having a moment when he did that. Still, as I posted, the casualty here is probably Sanchez who in a 'make or break' year, has that much less to work with.

ZippyTheChimp
October 3rd, 2012, 01:32 PM
Tebow's coming, hide your heart.

(I know; it works better with the Giants).

eddhead
October 3rd, 2012, 01:38 PM
I am not ready for Tebow. I just don't see him as a qb.

ZippyTheChimp
October 3rd, 2012, 02:05 PM
He'll never be an NFL passer, but Woody loves him, and he cuts the checks.

eddhead
October 15th, 2012, 10:30 AM
So here's the thing. For all the horrible play, and predictions of gloom, the Jets are 3-3, 2-0 in the division, and tied for first. I realize that says a lot about the AFC East but we'll take it.

GordonGecko
October 15th, 2012, 11:11 AM
Yeah there's a lot to build on here. Steven Hill is very promising, and Greene showed signs of brilliance. The problem still remains an inconsistent QB (with stupid Tebow cameos), Kyle Wilson at Corner, lack of depth at wide receiver, and struggles against top tier teams.

ZippyTheChimp
October 15th, 2012, 01:00 PM
So here's the thing. For all the horrible play, and predictions of gloom, the Jets are 3-3, 2-0 in the division, and tied for first. I realize that says a lot about the AFC East but we'll take it.Within the division, the Jets have an easier schedule than the Patriots, at least on paper. Depends on how good Seattle and Arizona are.

@ Seattle
Arizona

Patriots have two definitely tough games:

Houston
SF

If Miami or Buffalo take it, well then the division really sucks.

eddhead
October 15th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Yeah there's a lot to build on here. Steven Hill is very promising, and Greene showed signs of brilliance. The problem still remains an inconsistent QB (with stupid Tebow cameos), Kyle Wilson at Corner, lack of depth at wide receiver, and struggles against top tier teams.

With Holmes out, the Jets really do not have a number 1 WR, and actually, they don't have a soiid no.2 either unless you think more of Schilens than I do.

You're right, Hill has promise, but he is not yet ready for prime time. He has good and bad games. Despite a solid performance yesterday both the the D and O-Lines have been disappointing as well. It is very difficult for me to blame the offense's slow start on Sanchez; he is constantly under duress, and up until yesterday, they showed no support form skilled player positions. Greene was very good yesterday. Let's hope it continues.

The thing that bothers me about this team is they went into the off-season last year knowing they needed help at safety, o-line (RT in particular) and WR. they sured up the safety position, but they did nothing at RT until preseason when they picked up a marginal tackle, and they drafted a project at WR. All this while being something like $8MM under the cap. There were options out there, particularly at WR, but they elected not to go for them. I didn't get it than, and I don't now.


@ Zip - According to espn.com, New England has the easiest schedule in the league this year, Of course, to your point the Jets have already played SF an Houston. BTW, The Giants have the toughest.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/56896/2012-nfl-strength-of-schedule

ZippyTheChimp
October 15th, 2012, 02:50 PM
That was before the season. Since the entire division is 3-3, you have to look at it as a new ten game schedule.

The Jets have already played three tough opponents:
@ Pittsburgh
SF
Houston

The only known difficult team that the Patriots have already played is Baltimore. Arizona and Seattle weren't considered tough opponents until the season progressed.

eddhead
October 21st, 2012, 07:19 PM
The Jets really need to get some dependable receivers. Hill dropping that third down pass with 2:11 to play - that doesn't happen on teams with good wideouts. I sometimes think Sanchez has to deal with more than most QB's because of lack of WR prowess.

Everytime I see McNight on offense, I wonder why the Jets don't use him more often.

eddhead
October 21st, 2012, 08:11 PM
Horrible sports week for eddhead

eddhead
November 12th, 2012, 04:01 PM
I don' t watch football - I watch the Jets.

ZippyTheChimp
November 13th, 2012, 10:24 AM
Last Sunday was an awful day for NY football.

GordonGecko
November 13th, 2012, 10:33 AM
The Giants will be ok once Eli clears his head and they make their usual late season push. The Jets, on the other hand are a total disaster. Tannenbaum is a failed GM and Sparano is obviously a falied OC. Ditto for Sanchez, and Rex's leash is getting shorter and shorter. At this point they should play Tebow or release the guy, this is getting beyond stupid. The good news is you'll be able to buy Jets tickets for peanuts if you don't mind watching a train wreck for 3 hours

ZippyTheChimp
November 13th, 2012, 12:15 PM
I agree about the Jets.

But the Giants have had a linebacking problem since the season started that I can only see "solved" by dominated play by the front four. Hasn't been there the last few games.

eddhead
November 13th, 2012, 12:40 PM
I would argue that with exception of one or two games, it really hasn't been there all year. It is puzzling and if I were a Giants' fan, I would be troubled.

This defense lives and dies with its pass rush and dominant play of its defensive line, and despite the recent emergence of Eli and Cruz, this team really gets its energy from its defense. They certainly are not in the shape the Jets are, and they benefit from having little real competition in the division. Right now, they are the obvious class of the division. But the Cowboys are playing better, and the Giants really need to step up.

GordonGecko
November 13th, 2012, 01:54 PM
on a lighter note, Tim Tebow's inbox as discovered by a "hacker" :)

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1107/grantland_tebowinbox_1152.jpg

ZippyTheChimp
November 15th, 2012, 04:56 PM
Nothing from Paula Broadwell.

ZippyTheChimp
November 20th, 2012, 09:56 AM
This defense lives and dies with its pass rush and dominant play of its defensive line.I disagree. If you don't stop the run first, the pass rush means little. Teams will run on you until you stop it.

It's harder to determine who's at fault on run-defense, probably a combination of both, but it seems to me that the LBs have been slow to plug up holes inside.

eddhead
November 20th, 2012, 05:00 PM
I am not sure I agree with the notion that teams run on you until you prove you can stop them. Maybe that was the case 10-20 years ago, but today for the most part, this is a pass-happy league. It was once the case that a 3000 yard passing season was noteworthy. Today, each year there are several QB's who surpass 4000 passing yds.

But even if you are right, I would say the Giants haven't distinguised themselves in either phase at this point. In terms of total yards, they are 28th in the NFL defending against the pass, and 24th against the run. Teams are clearly not just running on them - they are giving up an average of 274 yds per game against pass ranking them 26th in yds per game.

IMO, the strongest part of this team in recent years has been their defensive line which features 4 athletic line man who each possess the pass rushing skills of top rated DE's. In 2011 the Giants ranked 2nd in the league in team sacks. This year they are 13th.Where in the past they have managed to get by with a secondary that was mediocre in terms of their coverage skills by relying on the pass rush, this year they are not.

Anyway, I am not suggesting that their rush defense is not important or is performing up to prior years. But over the past few years the defense has gotten a certain energy from its d-line and its pass rushing capablity key sacks and hurries in crucial situations that set a charge into them. It is not there today.

eddhead
November 22nd, 2012, 11:11 PM
The Jets have literally imploded. I am in awe of their ineptitude.

GordonGecko
November 22nd, 2012, 11:22 PM
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/investigations/hindenburg/hindenburg07.jpg

ZippyTheChimp
November 23rd, 2012, 12:07 AM
But even if you are right, I would say the Giants haven't distinguised themselves in either phase at this point. In terms of total yards, they are 28th in the NFL defending against the pass, and 24th against the run. Teams are clearly not just running on them - they are giving up an average of 274 yds per game against pass ranking them 26th in yds per game.

IMO, the strongest part of this team in recent years has been their defensive line which features 4 athletic line man who each possess the pass rushing skills of top rated DE's. In 2011 the Giants ranked 2nd in the league in team sacks.JPP was on WFAN and was asked the question about the lack of a pass rush. He said what I said - can't rush the QB unless we can stop the run.

Team stats are tricky when you apply them only to a particular group on the team. If the opposing offense finds itself in a lot of third-and-long situations, there will be more pass rush opportunities. I didn't say that teams aren't gaining lots of passing yards; if you find yourself facing third and short a lot, it opens up the passing game.

I know he's a fan favorite, but Chase Blackburn is no starting MLB. Too slow.



Getting this back on topic, that was the worst game I've seen all year.

JCMAN320
November 23rd, 2012, 02:17 AM
Sanchez running into his own players ass and fumbling the ball just sums up the Jets as a franchise. Funniest thing I've seen in sports all year lmao.

http://www.newshour24.com/image/2012/11/23/mark-sanchez-fumbles-off-of-his-teammates-butt-in-a-play-that-pretty-much-sums-up-jets-patriots.jpg

http://www.newshour24.com/image/2012/11/23/mark-sanchez-fumbles-off-of-his-teammates-butt-in-a-play-that-pretty-much-sums-up-jets-patriots.jpg

eddhead
November 23rd, 2012, 09:22 AM
Wilfork literal picked up Moore and threw him down on Sanchez. Not a proud moment for either player.

infoshare
November 23rd, 2012, 09:35 AM
http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=158926&postcount=2686

Ouch, even archBoston is boastin…….

ZippyTheChimp
November 23rd, 2012, 10:07 AM
Although Wilfork did pick up Moore and throw him back, it looked to me that Sanchez was going to run into him anyway, like he didn't see a 300 lb guard.

Look at the second view of the play. There was never a hole there; at the last moment, Sanchez seemed to be trying to slide.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3kbwm0C4k

One big brain fart. It was a busted play, missed handoff; at the post-game interview, Sanchez said he was "thinking of another play in my head."

eddhead
November 23rd, 2012, 01:00 PM
The view angle that best illustrates my point is the third one. It looks to me as though just as Sanchez was lowering himself and moving into his slide (to give himself up), Moore was pushed back into him. It is pretty much a bang-bang thing, but it seems that the combined and simultaneous motions of Sanches moving forward, and Moore backward accentuated the impact at the time of the collission. You can see Sanchez's head snap back.

Don't get me wrong, it was a horrible play all around and in many ways typifies this season. As I posted previously, not a proud moment for either player.

And you're right, it was a total brain fart. How in the world Sanchez could even say he was thinking of another play is beyond me. I mean he said that in public. In front of the press. With no hint of shame.

He needs to take is head out of his (and Moore's ) arse.

ZippyTheChimp
November 26th, 2012, 03:09 PM
I overstated the play. Wilfork didn't lift Moore at all. I think we were influence by the announcers, who blew the call.

I looked at game clips frame by frame on a TV, and Brandon Moore actually put a good block on Wilfork, but he had to hold it longer than if the play had developed normally, and the RB had hit the line sooner.

When Sanchez turns around after the missed handoff and begins to run, Moore is at the yard-marker, and Wilfork is low pushing against him. When Sanchez made contact with the aforementioned butt, Moore had moved forward two steps, one yard. Wilfork's feet did not go backward, but he was pushed more vertical. Moore's left leg started to come up as Sanchez hit.

eddhead
November 26th, 2012, 03:43 PM
He may not have lifted him up, but he certainly pushed him back.

Looking third run of the play on the clip you embedded above, it does appear to me that Moore is moving backwards as Sanchez is sliding forward. I can't read Sanchez's mind, but I think he was trying to slide under Moore when Moore was pushed back a step or so. I don't think Sanchez was ready for Moore's butt to be where it was and as a result slid right into it as it was moving back. You're right, it is not a huge shove back, but it was a couple of shuffle steps and enough to snap his head back.


Either way it was asinine and frankly embarrassing. Moore has a butt like a barn door and it was painted green for Chirst sakes. He should have seen that one coming.

ZippyTheChimp
December 5th, 2012, 04:22 PM
Sanchez named the starting QB for game 14.

Yay?

IrishInNYC
December 5th, 2012, 07:03 PM
Sanchez named the starting QB for game 14.

Yay?

I think the fact it is a road game and about 43 people will be at the game has a lot to do with it.

eddhead
December 7th, 2012, 10:55 AM
Yes. The season is close to lost, so we may as well give him a final shot. As bad as he has looked at time, I keep reminding myself that he really does not have much around him. Still he has been an absolute abomination over the past two games especially/.

I think i hear circus music in the background.

ZippyTheChimp
December 7th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Over the past two seasons, I've changed my opinion of Rex Ryan. It's not that he's a bad head coach, but with four years experience, he hasn't learned how to be a head coach.

I don't think his job is in jeopardy this year, even if they implode further; but I think he's on the bubble next year.

eddhead
December 10th, 2012, 10:51 AM
I think he is safe this year and on the bubble next year too.

The Jets biggest problems are with personnel. They consisistently overrate the abilities of their players - they're just not that good, especially on offense but on defense as well. This is especially true of the so called 'skilled players' such as receivers, backs, and arguably the QB who has been a major disappointment to date.

I come back to this; going into the offseason, the Jets needed help at safety, ORT, WR, and RB. They aslo needed to upgrade the depth at LB, adding speed and youth. The did OK at safety, traded for a journeyman tackle, and drafted a project WR who never played in a pro-set at collage and is at best a prospect. Factor the injuries to Holmes and Keller with the lack of depth (injuries happen so depth is the real problem), and you're left with a receiving crew that is at best ordinary. All this while leaving $6MM worth of salary cap space on the table, and trading for a side-show.

Ordinarily, I would blame the GM for this, but the fact is Tannenbaum is not really a personnel guy - he is more of a salary cap expert. And I think Woody has to take the hit for Tebow and maybe the lack of willingness to spend the $6MM. Just as importantly though, it seems that Ryan had a major role in personnel selection. Sanchez was his guy, as were the three DLman they drafted over the past two years, and others. It appears that many of the personnel failures are on Ryan.

I think that next year the Jets will bring in a real GM with personnel responsibilbities, and bump Tannenbaum up to the role of President where he will focus on the cap and maybe other financial considerations. They'll give Ryan at least another year as HC, but alleviate him of final say on personnel.

The Jets have an $8.2MM option on Sanchez for next year. At this point there is no way they sign him for that. Unless he suddenly explodes over the next 3 games, and gets the Jets to the playoffs where they make a major splash, the Jets will almost certainly renegotiate his contract, if they don't release him outright.

Final word on Ryan - I liked him better when he was loud and boisterous and full of bluster. At least the Jets played with attitude then. They may not have always been the best team in the game, but they were tough and competitive. The team had a real identity, forged by its defense, and of all things, the toughness of its offensive line which was primarily responsible for its ground-it-out run game. They lack that identity and toughness today. The rushing defense is near the bottom of the league. The OL, while showing sparks reently against lesser teams, lacks the ability to consistently push DL's off the ball. You don't hear a lot of 'play like a Jet' or 'here come the Jets baby' from the coach anymore, and I can't help but think that carries over to the team.

I think they need that back and I think the defense needs and the coach, need to lead the way.

EDIT: I stand corrected on Sanchez. His contract is guaranteed through 2013.

eddhead
December 12th, 2012, 12:23 PM
Once again, is that circus music I hear?

Actually I am not really against the move - I actually like Edwards ... only that it comes 13 games late.

================================================== ================================================== ======

Jets bring back Braylon Edwards

One week after blasting the New York Jets (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyj/new-york-jets) on Twitter, calling them "idiots," Braylon Edwards (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8418/braylon-edwards) is one of them -- again.
The well-traveled wide receiver reunited Tuesday with the Jets, who acquired him on waivers. Edwards was released Monday from the Seattle Seahawks (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sea/seattle-seahawks)' injury-reserve list.

The Jets were willing to forgive and forget because they're desperate for bodies at receiver. A knee injury to Stephen Hill (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14910/stephen-hill), coupled with Edwards' release, set the stage for the unlikely reunion.

Edwards took a happier tone on Twitter on Tuesday afternoon. "It feels great to be going home," Edwards tweeted. "Thanks to all of jet nation that continuously supported me and pushed for me. I'm back and it's go time." Edwards was a productive player for the Jets in 2009 and 2010, but they opted not to re-sign him. A week ago, he came to the defense of embattled quarterback Mark Sanchez (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/12482/mark-sanchez), ripping the organization in a tweet that said: "Don't blame Sanchez. I played there. Blame the idiots calling shots. Mark is a beast and will prove it when given a proper chance."

He apologized in another tweet, calling it an "emotional outburst" and admitting that he "disrespected and insulted an administration that I have the utmost respect for."

A short time later, Edwards was waived/injured, landing on the Seahawks' IR list after he passed through waivers for the first time.
The Jets' depleted receiving corps, already down Santonio Holmes (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/9611/santonio-holmes) (he suffered a season-ending foot injury in Week 4), lost Hill to a knee sprain Sunday in Jacksonville. Clyde Gates (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14209/clyde-gates), whose role had increased in recent weeks, is out indefinitely with a concussion.
It left them with only two healthy, experienced receivers, Jeremy Kerley (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14151/jeremy-kerley) and Chaz Schilens (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11460/chaz-schilens). They also have journeyman Mardy Gilyard (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13221/mardy-gilyard), whom they signed off the street two weeks ago, and rookie Jordan White (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14991/jordan-white).

Edwards was one of Sanchez's favorite targets in 2009 and 2010, recording 88 receptions for 1,445 yards and 11 touchdowns in his two seasons in New York. Since then, he has battled knee issues and his career has declined. He caught 15 passes last season with the San Francisco 49ers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers) and only eight this year with the Seahawks. The Jets reportedly tried to trade for him earlier this season.
"You guys know what I've always said about Braylon in the past, so you know how I feel about him," coach Rex Ryan said Monday, when asked about the possibility of acquiring Edwards. "But right now, I think we'll just focus on the guys we have."

The Jets waived running back Kahlil Bell (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/12488/kahlil-bell) Tuesday morning to create a roster spot for Edwards.

His recent defense of Sanchez notwithstanding, Edwards took a subtle jab at the quarterback in the preseason, saying he paled in comparison to Seahawks rookie Russell Wilson (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14881/russell-wilson).

"I see better things," he said, comparing Wilson to Sanchez as a rookie in 2009. "It's his approach. It's very veteran-like. He studies film; he breaks it down. He doesn't approach it like a rookie, and he's not looking for excuses. He's very impressive."

ZippyTheChimp
December 12th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Who's the QB?

No, Who's on first.

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 02:23 PM
Tiebraker scenerios for the Jets are very complicated but as I understand it the clearest and best scenerio for the Jets is to win out, while the Bengals beat the Steelers next week, and the Ravens beat the Bengals on week 17. In two or three way tie-braker scenerios, the Jets get the edge over the Bengals, but not the Steelers.

The Jets also have tiebraker advantages over the Colts, so there also scenerios where the Jets beat out the Colts, or where the Colts, Steelers and Jets each finish 9-7 and the Jets get the number 5 seed, but those make my hair hurt.

The Jets cannot win a head-to-head tie-braker with the Ravens, so as far as the Jets are concerned, it is best that the Ravens win the division and knock the Bengals off at the season' s close. To that end, it might be better for the Ravens to lose next week so they have something to play for on week 17. Go Giants!

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 10:10 PM
It is painful to watch this team, especially on offense.

ZippyTheChimp
December 17th, 2012, 11:40 PM
So much for the scenarios.

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 11:42 PM
Really.

I don't even know what to say. I am completely dumbfounded. Following this team is a curse.

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 12:19 AM
Mark Sanchez in Nashville.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1222469.1355806202!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/jetsweb18s-1-web.jpg

He can throw more picks than the number of ants on a Tennessee anthill.

IrishInNYC
December 18th, 2012, 08:29 AM
Oh boy...I wonder how badly ESPN stank up the ratings with that game...it's a rough week in Giant land but holy smokes is that Jets team a train wreck or what? That will officially go down as the game that ended Mark Sanchez's "career" as an NFL starter.

My advice, bench Sanchez, lose Tebow in the Florida swamp in the off-season...hold onto McElroy as your emergency option and go after Alex Smith or Matt Flynn with a vengeance.

There's not much else on the cards at QB be it in the draft or FA. If the Jets were nice about it Carroll might even trade for his boy Sanchez to come as back up in Seattle.

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 09:17 AM
While that is not bad advise, it strikes me that it is at best a band aid. Certainly, Sanchez is a big part of the problem but he is not the only piece. In a previous post, I made the point that the Jets have deep personnel issues, especially at offense and especially at the skilled positions. That they have these issues is bad enough, but they do not seem willing to address them. I am getting kind of sick on harping on this, but in a nut shell, the team went into the 2012 off season needing to fill several gaps on offense and not only failed to do so, but acted like what they had was fine.

Their skilled players are mediocre at best, and their offensive line is over rated. It is striking to me that the best receiver on the field last night was Braylon Edwards who wasn't good enough to stick with the Seahawks and who the team only picked up this week. Offense is not a hobby. You need to have a plan to be an effective offensive team. The Jets don't seem to get that.

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 10:16 AM
Sanchez will probably be the starting QB next season simply because of his salary. He is guaranteed $8.25 million in 2013.

The top QB salaries in 2013:

Payton Manning..................$20 million
Michael Vick.......................$15.5
Drew Brees........................$15
Carson Palmer....................$13
Eli Manning........................$13
Phil Rivers.........................$12
Matt Stafford......................$12
Ben Rothlisberger................$11.6
Tony Romo.........................$11.5
Kevin Kolb..........................$11
Matt Ryan..........................$10
Tom Brady.........................$9.75
Aaron Rodgers...................$9.25
Mark Sanchez....................$8.25

The only QB on this list that Sanchez could reasonably replace (as a salary cap issue) is Kevin Kolb (Cardinals), who has had injury problems. Would the Cardinals, who have had QB issues all season, want to take on Sanchez and all his baggage?

As for QBs down the list, what team would take on Sanchez's salary? And no team is going to pay him that much to be a backup.

The Jets should release Tim Tebow. He was never a threat to Sanchez because, unlike on normal teams where the backup can just take over, the Jets would have had to retool the offense, impossible in-game, and difficult between games. All the experts - ex players, coaches, analysts - knew this from the beginning.

The Jets should do now what they should have done four years ago - sign a veteran backup QB. There was a good example on the opposite sideline last night - Matt Hasselbeck.

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 10:25 AM
Some of those names and salaries surprised me. Sanchez is a bargain at $8MM compared to say a Carson Palmer. But I agree, the Jets are stuck with him for one more year.

So if they are stuck with Sanchez, do they try to make it work with him by bringing in a coach with a real offensive scheme and long-term plan that is perhaps more friendly to quarterbacks, or do they ride it out and wait for 2014? The former option likely means the end of the Ryan era.

I am by no means excusing Sanchez's body of work, but as Gruden said last night, being the qb of the Jets is hard (probably harder than it needs to be)


The Jets should do now what they should have done four years ago - sign a veteran backup QB. There was a good example on the opposite sideline last night - Matt Hasselbeck.

Someone like say, Mark Brunnel? OK, just kidding, but it is an example of just how clueless this team is when it comes to offense. They recognized the need for some veteran stability at the position and brought in a guy who throws passes from his wheelchair.

IrishInNYC
December 18th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Sanchez will probably be the starting QB next season simply because of his salary. He is guaranteed $8.25 million in 2013.

The top QB salaries in 2013:

Payton Manning..................$20 million
Michael Vick.......................$15.5
Drew Brees........................$15
Carson Palmer....................$13
Eli Manning........................$13
Phil Rivers.........................$12
Matt Stafford......................$12
Ben Rothlisberger................$11.6
Tony Romo.........................$11.5
Kevin Kolb..........................$11
Matt Ryan..........................$10
Tom Brady.........................$9.75
Aaron Rodgers...................$9.25
Mark Sanchez....................$8.25



I know contracts are weighted and loaded on different years but the fact that Carson Palmer will make more then Brady, Ryan, Big Ben and Rodgers in 2013 is an astonishing fact.

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 01:21 PM
This represents an almost perfect summation of my observations and thoughts on the Jets. Really, there is nothing else to add, which is good because it is kind of long ;).

It is from Football Perspective
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Every hand in the Jets passing game is to blame

by Chase Stuart (http://www.footballperspective.com/author/admin/) on December 8, 2012
in Passing (http://www.footballperspective.com/category/passing/), Rant (http://www.footballperspective.com/category/rant/)

http://www.footballperspective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rex-Ryan-300x168.jpg (http://www.footballperspective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rex-Ryan.jpg) Not Don Coryell.

It’s a special edition of Saturday rant day at Football Perspective. I’m no Mark Sanchez (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SancMa00.htm) apologist. But that doesn’t mean he’s the only one to blame for the Jets’ passing game struggles.

The Supporting Cast
Jeremy Kerley (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KerlJe00.htm), Dustin Keller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellDu00.htm), Chaz Schilens (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchiCh00.htm), Stephen Hill (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillSt00.htm), and Jeff Cumberland (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CumbJe00.htm) are the team’s leading receivers. Clyde Gates (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GateCl00.htm) has started two games at wide receiver. Kerley would be a great #3 receiver, but he’s the Jets #1. Schillens and Gates are best left as fifth receivers, while Stephen Hill (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillSt00.htm) is incredibly raw and has struggled most of the year. Keller would be a good tight end on a good passing offense, but is overmatched as the team’s #2 target. I don’t think anyone would disagree that the Jets’ receivers (including stone-hands Shonn Greene (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GreeSh00.htm)) rank in the bottom five of the league.

Mike Tannenbaum
Tannenbaum has come under heavy criticism from Jets fans of late. While I think much of that is probably unfair, there are several areas to point the finger at Tannenbaum — starting with drafting Sanchez in the first place. The Jets general manager listens to eternal optimist Ryan too much when it comes to personnel decisions, which led the Jets to start Wayne Hunter (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HuntWa20.htm) at right tackle last year and enter the pre-season with him, somehow, still entrenched at the spot. The Vlad Ducasse (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DucaVl20.htm) pick has been a bust, leaving Matt Slauson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SlauMa20.htm) to cover at left guard (you know, when he’s not being rotated out of the game). Trades for Braylon Edwards (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/EdwaBr00.htm) and Santonio Holmes (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HolmSa00.htm) yielded immediate dividends, but have only added to the disruption in the locker room without helping the 2012 version of the team. Sanchez is playing with one of the worst supporting casts in the league, so the man who picks the talent certainly bears some of the blame.

Rex Ryan
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RyanRe0c.htm)
There are very few head coaches who are excellent on both sides of the ball, but Rex Ryan (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RyanRe0c.htm) is one of the most specialized head coaches in the NFL. He’s a defensive mastermind — no doubt about that (http://www.footballperspective.com/is-rex-ryan-the-best-defensive-coach-in-the-league/) — but he’s as helpless on offense as he is strong on defense. He vowed this year (http://dustinkeller81.com/2012/10/27/ryan-involved-with-offense-again/) to get more involved in the offense, which should start sending red flags to begin with since 2012 is his fourth season as head coach of the team. To the extent that he has been more hands on in 2012, the results aren’t any better.

Perhaps Ryan is the mirror image of a Gary Kubiak (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KubiGa00.htm), who took awhile (http://www.footballperspective.com/what-can-we-learn-from-gary-kubiaks-career-in-houston/) to find the right man to run the other half of his team. But from the standpoint of developing a quarterback, Ryan may even be counterproductive. The red light-yellow light-green light (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/11/28/jets-play-red-light-green-light-with-sanchez/) system he gave Sanchez in his rookie season was Ryan’s first attempt to right the ship and a sign of what the coach expects out of the quarterback position. The bottom line is Ryan is focused on playing good defense and running the ball, and as long as his quarterback doesn’t mess up, he thinks his team will win. That’s not the ideal environment for a young quarterback to blossom in, and we learned exactly what Rex thinks about his quarterback when this off-season he chose to hire as his offensive coordinator…

Tony Sparano (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SparTo0c.htm) (hat tip, Brian Schottenheimer (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchoBr0c.htm))

The former Miami Dolphins head coach did a masterful job his first season, turning the team from 1-15 to 11-5 and pulling down Bill Belichick’s (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeliBi0c.htm) pants on a national stage. Unfortunately, his Wildcat offense in New York has been the least imaginative offense anyone under the age of 90 has ever seen. Ryan hired Sparano because he fit Ryan’s vision of a ground-and-pound offense, but what about finding an offensive coordinator that would help develop his quarterback?

Chad Henne (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HennCh01.htm) was the star pupil in Miami, and he was looking for a job after 2011 just like his former head coach. Sparano is a former offensive line and tight ends coach with no reputation for mentoring young quarterbacks. Of course, Sparano’s resume looks like Bill Walsh’s (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/player_search.cgi?search=Bill+Walsh) compared to the man actually responsible for the position.
http://www.footballperspective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Tebow-Sanchez-300x210.jpg (http://www.footballperspective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Tebow-Sanchez.jpg) Placed in the trusted hands of Matt Cavanaugh.


Matt Cavanaugh (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CavaMa00.htm) One of the least inspiring resumes of any quarterback coach you’ll ever see. Matt Cavanaugh’s (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CavaMa00.htm) first major job was as the offensive coordinator of the Chicago Bears in 1997 and ’98 under Dave Wannstedt (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WannDa0c.htm). Chicago went 4-12 both seasons and ranked 25th and 28th in points scored.

Wannstedt was fired, but Cavanaugh landed in Baltimore. In six years in Baltimore, Cavanaugh’s offenses ranked 28th, 24th, 20th, 25th, 27ths and 31st in Net Yards per Attempt. In addition to a string of mediocre veterans, Cavanaugh personally presided over the development of Chris Redman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RedmCh00.htm) and then Kyle Boller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BollKy00.htm). After it was clear that Boller, a first round pick in 2003, was not progressing — and the coach had earned the nickname “Cavanawful” from Ravens fans — he “resigned” following the 2004 season.

he then went to the Pittsburgh Panthers as Dave Wannstedt’s (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WannDa0c.htm) offensive coordinator in 2005; there, the dynamic duo named Tyler Palko (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PalkTy00.htm) the starter over Joe Flacco (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00.htm), causing the future first round round (spoiler: not Palko) to transfer to Delaware. In 2007 and 2008, the Panthers threw 21 touchdowns and 31 interceptions (http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/play-index/sgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2007&year_max=2008&conf_id=&school_id=pittsburgh&opp_id=&game_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=pass_td&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=opp_def_int&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pass_td).

Which brings us to the Jets. Because Cavanaugh was on the Ravens staff, he received VIP access to the Rex Ryan (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RyanRe0c.htm) coaching staff. I don’t know how much a quarterback coach is actually responsible for developing a quarterback, but even if it’s 1%, I don’t see what Ryan saw in Cavanaugh to make him the hire. Even worse, how has he stuck around on the team? After nearly four years, he is still the Jets quarterbacks coach. The man who chose Palko over Flacco and was fired for failing to develop Kyle Boller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BollKy00.htm) was tasked with the most important job in the organization. Even if you think expectations for what a quarterbacks can do, is there a justifiable explanation for why Cavanaugh was brought back in 2012?

Mark Sanchez
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SancMa00.htm)
Sanchez isn’t very good and he’s never been very good. Sanchez ranked 21st in NY/A (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2009/passing.htm) as a rookie and then 29th in NY/A (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2010/passing.htm) in his sophomore year, which were the two years the Jets made it to the AFC Championship Game. Some Jets fans mistakenly viewed his 26 passing touchdowns last year — 9th most in the league — as a sign of something, but the real takeaway was that he ranked 27th in NY/A in 2011 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/passing.htm). So far in 2012 he ranks 29th in NY/A (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/passing.htm), and he’s had turnovers issues in each of his four seasons (which NY/A, of course, ignores).
Right now, Sanchez isn’t good. Period. The question I have is whether even a good quarterback would look good on this team, playing with these teammates and being coached by Cavanaugh, Sparano, and Ryan.

http://www.footballperspective.com/every-hand-in-the-jets-passing-game-is-to-blame/

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 03:27 PM
There's just one part of that I question:
There are very few head coaches who are excellent on both sides of the ball, but Rex Ryan is one of the most specialized head coaches in the NFL. He’s a defensive mastermind — no doubt about that — but he’s as helpless on offense as he is strong on defense. He vowed this year to get more involved in the offense, which should start sending red flags to begin with since 2012 is his fourth season as head coach of the team. To the extent that he has been more hands on in 2012, the results aren’t any better.

The mechanics of football is complex, but it isn't rocket science. There are more than enough qualified people to fill coaching positions, if that's all there was to it. Maybe there is more of the technical aspects of football at specialized levels, like LB or Special Team coaches; but as you move up the organization, other skills become important. I think the biggest gulf is between the head coach and his two coordinators.

A head coach doesn't really have to run the offense or defense at all during the game, once a game plan is worked out at meetings and practice. Unlike the coordinators, he has to control the entire team in the same way any good organization functions. This is the area where I think Rex Ryan has so far been a failure. All the nonsense between games indicates an organization out of control. What happens on Sunday is just the inevitable result.

Maybe it's for the better that the Jets didn't make the playoffs. They wouldn't be facing teams like Arizona, Jacksonville, or Tennessee, that they barely got by. Ryan, who remarked after the Jacksonville game that they "beat a good 2-11 team," would start strutting again. What is good about a 2-11 team (now 2-12), that they show up?

We'd hear from Ryan about making the playoffs three out of four years, ignoring the fact that they were closer to the Super Bowl in 2009 with a rookie QB. Maybe now, Ryan will spend the off season figuring out what he's doing wrong.

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 04:46 PM
I think that new head coaches do tend to bring a certain bias to thier jobs, because for the most part their backgounds were either on the offensive or defensive sides of the ball, but not both. And sometimes those biases are reflected in the personalities of their teams. Parcel's teams tend to play tough defense, and smash mouth offense for instance. The Tomlin Steelers too have focused past efforts on defense and running although the focus on running changed this year. Although the old Walsh 49er teams had excellent defenses, their identity was formed around running the west coast offense. Walsh pretty much left the D to Seiford.

Belichick is an intersting case because he came into the job as a defensive 'genius' and his early Patriot teams focused on defense. More recently that has clearly not been the case. Brian Bilick is the mirror image; he started out as an offensive guru, but as a head coach, his teams were dominant on the defensive side of the ball. The point is they adapted. They realized the job was bigger than what their specialized expertise would provide and they directed thier attention accordingly. In some cases they focused so much on what they were less comfortable with, the identity of the team changed. Harbaugh (SF) might be one example of a coach who adapted. Fox might be another. Kubiak might be an example of one who failed to do so as is Norv Turner. Not exactly coaches you would want to emulate.

So, while it is not unusual for coaches to focus on what they know best, it can be a trap if they are not careful. It is fine to form a team identity or brand on what you know best or value the most, but you can't ignore the other pieces. The Jets' whole approach to offense was piece meal - we'll pick up the players we need to fill the gaps for a year, and rethink who to replace them with next year. It is dysfunctional, and it doesn't lend itself to consistency and cohesion.

And it is not a good way to develop a young QB.

I don't mind that the Jets want to play smash mouth football to compliment their defense for instance. But if that is your plan, you still have to focus on getting the personnel in place you need to do so. How in the world can a team that wants to 'ground and pound' enter the season with a turnstyle at RT? And has Shaun Greene really proven that he can be an every down featured running back? They might have a nice change-up back in Bilal Powel but that remains to be seen.

And while I am not apologizing for Sanchez, who has clearly regressed this year, if you want your young QB to succeed you have to surround him with tools, including key skilled players and knowlegable coaches with proven track records (did you see Tom Moore on the Tennesee sideline last night?) And don't set him up to fail by bringing in the likes of a Tebow.


While we are on the subject of Sanchez, the only thing in the article I disagree with is Mike Lombardi's (who I generally respect) statement that he lacks arm stregnth. He routinely makes tough throws outside the numbers, sometimes throwing across the field to do so. His issues are accuracy, judgement and reads. His decision making ability is so suspect that it makes me shake my head at times, as does his lack of pocket presence and his inabiltiy to go thru his progressions. And if you want to know where he is throwing the ball, follow his eyes.

All of this is inexcusable for a 4th year QB. It makes me wonder if the issue is developmental. No, I don't think he has a disablity, but I do wonder why no one has taken a hard look at what Cavanaugh brings to the table.

IrishInNYC
December 18th, 2012, 08:48 PM
Jets have benched Sanchez. McElroy starting (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20121218/greg-mcelroy-mark-sanchez/?sct=hp_t11_a7&eref=sihp) on Sunday.

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 09:15 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1217/ny_u_rrmsts_400.jpg

This picture needs speech balloons.

GordonGecko
December 18th, 2012, 09:33 PM
No more mr. nice guy, Tebow wants out:
http://t.co/MMu6PWH9

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 09:58 PM
Good riddance.

He was not the answer to the Jets problems.

JCMAN320
December 19th, 2012, 03:23 AM
The Jets wasted this poor guys' time. They wasted a year of his career. It doesn't matter if people think he is a great QB or bad QB; he deserves a chance to play. You will never convince me that the move to bring Tebow wasn't about the Jets trying to steal the headlines from the Super Bowl Champs; the NY Giants. It was to sell jerseys, seats, and hot dogs. The Jets idea is that any publicity is good publicity.

IrishInNYC
December 19th, 2012, 08:54 AM
^I'm not so sure about that, in a way it cooled the pot after last season with the Broncos. The hysteria and hype was insane. Tebow is never going to be a starting NFL QB and this year has brought that into focus. The list of things that are wrong with him is too long. It's arguable he needs a complete position change...perhaps FB.

He was complicit in going there...the Jets may have had ulterior motives but he's a big boy (too big for a running QB) and made his choice.

eddhead
December 19th, 2012, 09:08 AM
I am not quite sure I understand why you think he deserves a chance to play. Do you deserve a chance to play? Do I? Does McElroy?

There is a reason the Jets leapfrogged Tebow and went straight to McElroy ... he is not an NFL caliber QB. Remember the coaching staff sees things in practice that you and I are not privy to. And I will take the word for it, because I have seen him play. He simply cannot pass the football.

People focus on how he brought Denver back last year, but does anybody talk about the fact that he lost the last 3 games of the season including a loss on the last week of the season when they controlled their own destiny? He got lucky in Pittsburgh because no one was payng attention, but what did he do prior to OT. Look it up.

He is not a good QB.

GordonGecko
December 19th, 2012, 09:36 AM
There is a reason the Jets leapfrogged Tebow and went straight to McElroy

then why bring him here in the first place? The people who brought him in as a quarterback don't think he can quarterback. what??

ZippyTheChimp
December 19th, 2012, 09:51 AM
A good question.

I doubt you will get a truthful answer from anyone presently in the organization, but I think it points to ownership. Woody Johnson wanted Tebow because of his cult following in college and Denver. It seems to me that Johnson is more interested in competing with the Giants than in competing in the NFL. Last year must have been a nightmare for him.

He did the same thing in 2008, bringing in the hugely popular Brett Favre. It ended in disaster, ironically with the Jets losing to the Chad Pennington led Dolphins, whom they cut to make room for Favre.

IrishInNYC
December 19th, 2012, 09:57 AM
then why bring him here in the first place? The people who brought him in as a quarterback don't think he can quarterback. what??

In a word. Woody. No one on the coaching staff wanted him.

eddhead
December 19th, 2012, 10:21 AM
then why bring him here in the first place? The people who brought him in as a quarterback don't think he can quarterback. what??

Honestly, it boggles the mind. Typical Jets.

@ Zip - There was a lot to critiscize Favre for. He was a self-centered prick, but at least he was effective until he blew out his shoulder late in the year. But Tebow? That deal was nuts.

GordonGecko
December 19th, 2012, 02:33 PM
Woody may have forced him onto the team, but if so one would think that he also would have forced him into the chargers game on sunday after his managerial staff blew the whole season and there's nothing left to play for. Why not play Tebow at home week 16 (presumably to sell tickets) and Mclroy in week 17 to see what he's got

eddhead
December 19th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Why not start McElroy both weeks and see if he can cut it as a number 2 QB in the NFL? At some point, they have to make a decision on him too, and one game may not be enough to judge him on.

IrishInNYC
December 19th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Woody may have forced him onto the team, but if so one would think that he also would have forced him into the chargers game on sunday after his managerial staff blew the whole season and there's nothing left to play for. Why not play Tebow at home week 16 (presumably to sell tickets) and Mclroy in week 17 to see what he's got

Johnson attends practice also...I imagine he has seen enough of Tebow to know he shouldn't be playing.

IrishInNYC
December 19th, 2012, 03:51 PM
Why not start McElroy both weeks and see if he can cut it as a number 2 QB in the NFL? At some point, they have to make a decision on him too, and one game may not be enough to judge him on.

I would think that's the plan. Barring an absolute embarrassment on Sunday, he'll start in the final game also. They'll never start Tebow....and if McElroy does reasonably well, what grounds are there for starting Sanchez?

GordonGecko
December 19th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Johnson attends practice also...I imagine he has seen enough of Tebow to know he shouldn't be playing.

And just conclude this train of thought, at the point where such a determination was made Tebow should have been released or traded


I would think that's the plan. Barring an absolute embarrassment on Sunday, he'll start in the final game also. They'll never start Tebow....and if McElroy does reasonably well, what grounds are there for starting Sanchez?

Because McElroy's ceiling is prejudged and pre-established by this coaching staff and GM. Compare that to a great like Bill Belichick who will throw anyone out there any given Sunday to see what they're made of and give them a legitimate shot to prove themselves

eddhead
December 19th, 2012, 05:21 PM
Tebow was never gong to be released or traded, at least not during the regular season. It will likely happen when the season is over. This was never Tanne or Ryan's move, it was the owners, and no one wanted to embarass him during the season. But the spotlight fades in the offseason, at least to a degree. . The Jets will still look bad, but the visiblity won't be as stark. And their fans will have the whole off season to move on

There is probably a reason why McElroy's ceiling has been prejudged. My guess is that unlike Sanchez who has physical tools but is a basketcase, McElroy doesn't have the arm to cut it. Belichick is a great coach, but even he can't make McElroy's arm stronger.

And on the subject of Belichick, remember Brady didn't get his start because the coaching staff threw him out there to see what he had, he got his start because Mo Lewis broke Bledsoe's rib and crushed a blood vessel in his chest. Despite the fact that Bledsloe wasn't playing all that well at the time, it still took a broken rib and internal bleeding to get him out of the line-up, and Brady into it. Another difference - Brady has a ton of physical talent - he has a cannon for an arm for instance. McElroy, not so much.

JCMAN320
December 20th, 2012, 01:05 AM
The Jets always look bad. Giants win SB in '07; they bring in Favre in '08 and it blows up in their face. Hire Rex; he is a classless, loudmouth, footfetish, embrarassment. Giants win SB in '11; bring in Tebow in '12. The Jets always seem intent on chasing the Giants, which made last year when the Giants put the kibosh on their season especially sweet.

Woody brought Tebow in because of his following. To answer your question no I dont deserve to play and Im assuming nore do you Edd. I didn't play Qb in college or pro. Tebow did; he is a pro and deserves a shot; not to be jerked around by a clueless, classless organiztion such as the Jets.

Crap is bad when you are choosing a 7th round pick in McElroy over two first round picks. Oh and btw this all the Jets need; another piece to add to their circus.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/12/20/mark-sanchez-trade-jets-michael-vick/?hpt=hp_t

Report: Jets to trade Mark Sanchez, pursue Michael Vick
Mark Sanchez, New York Jets, NFL | Comments

He’s already been benched by the New York Jets, and now it appears the team may be prepared to bring the Mark Sanchez era to a complete close. The New York Daily News reports that the team will seek to trade Sanchez in the offseason, removing the possiblity of the quarterback coming back to compete for the starting job in 2013.

Adding yet another wrinkle to the story: the soon-to-be out of contract Michael Vick is one of the team’s potential replacements for Sanchez. The Daily News reports that Vick would relish the opportunity to come to New York, and quotes multiple sources within the organization saying that head coach Rex Ryan is a fan of the current Eagles signal-caller.

Sanchez has made headlines this season for taking poor care of the football in addition to all-around disappointing play. With the Jets mathematically eliminated from playoff contention last week, Ryan has named backup Greg McElroy the team’s starter for the remaining two games of the season.

eddhead
December 20th, 2012, 08:59 AM
Woody brought Tebow in because of his following. To answer your question no I dont deserve to play and Im assuming nore do you Edd. I didn't play Qb in college or pro. Tebow did; he is a pro and deserves a shot; not to be jerked around by a clueless, classless organiztion such as the Jets.

Crap is bad when you are choosing a 7th round pick in McElroy over two first round picks. Oh and btw this all the Jets need; another piece to add to their circus.

I agree that niether you nor I deserve to play. I don't agree that Tebow deserves to play on the basis of his being a pro, or because he was a first round pick (I would remind you , he was a very controversial 1st round pick).

A player establishes his chance to play on the basis of what he does on the field or in practice. The Jets have seen him practice and are obviously not impressed. His teammates have literally used words like terrible to describe him - this from a team that has Mark Sanchez as its starting QB. And many of his former Bronco teammates agree:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/12/03/broncos-tim-tebow-jets/1742943/

The fact is, for all the hype regarding his play in 2011, with the exception of the Pittsburgh playoff game, Tebow failed to thow for more than 186 yards in all but one regular season game. That is out of 13 tries. In 11 of those games, he was under 150,and in 6 under 125. For the season he averged 123 yds per game, and 4.9 yds per attempt. 4.9. I don't ever remember a starting NFL QB averaging 4.9 yds per attempt. Everyone remembers the Pittsburgh game, but no one remembers just how badly he played over the last 3 regular season games especially in week 17 when he had a chance to clinch a playoff spot against the Chiefs and went 6/22 for 60- yds and an int. Remember, the Bronocos backed into the playoffs on week 17 when they lost to the Chiefs and needed the Raiders to implode against the Chargers.

He is not an NFL QB.

And I am not necessarily saying McElroy is either, only that we don't know definitively one way or another yet,and we need to find out. It is true, he was 7th round pick. It is also true that Tom Brady went in round 6. I am not saying McElroy is Brady, he may never be more than a no.2, if that. But the Jets need to establish what he can do, and move on.

ZippyTheChimp
December 20th, 2012, 09:34 AM
I didn't play Qb in college or pro. Tebow did; he is a pro and deserves a shot; not to be jerked around by a clueless, classless organiztion such as the Jets.Did the clueless Broncos jerk Tebow around?

If you want more proof that Tebow is a football player but not an NFL starting QB, consider: John Elway, VP of the Broncos and a HOF QB, thought it was a good idea to trade Tebow and sign Payton Manning for $20 million. Although this looks like a no-brainer in hindsight, at the time it was a big risk; no one knew if Manning was healthy enough to play. But he knew Tebow wasn't the answer.

The clueless part of the Jets is that they didn't see what the Broncos and the rest of the league saw about Tebow - he's not good. The only other team with interest in him last year was Jacksonville, and that was for the same wrong reason as the Jets - his popularity. It made a little sense for Jacksonville because Tebow went to college in Florida and the Jaguars are a shit team.

---------------------------

Michael Vick to Jets?

Release the hounds.

eddhead
December 20th, 2012, 09:46 AM
^^
To your point, I have NO idea what the Jets were doing when they traded for Tebow. None, whatsoever. It boggles the mind. He was never going to be the the starting QB, so exactly what role did they invision for him? Personal protector on the punt team? Wildcat specialist who gets 4 plays a game; just enough to upset the rythem of the offense?

The whole thing was a sham and absurd.

eddhead
December 31st, 2012, 12:16 PM
http://espn.go.com/newyork/conversations/_/id/8795617/new-york-jets-fire-mike-tannenbaum-rex-ryan-keep-job


ESPN announced today that Mike Tannenbaum has been fired from his positon as General Manager of the Jets and that Rex Ryan will stay on to coach the team in 2013/14. Tannenbaum took the hit for many of the poor personnel decisons the Jets made during his tenure. The article notes that while Tannenbaum had his share of successes; Revis and Cromartie for instance have both performed at a higher level than most would have predicted at the times they were drafted/acquired, someone had to be accountable for the failures of the likes of Vernon Gholston (who I believe was 6th overall) and Mark Sanchez (also 6th overall). Clearly, there were other less publicized failures as well, such as Vlad Ducasse who went in the second round and is about as effective as a pylon.

The curious thing about Tannenbaum, is that he was actually more of a salary cap and budget expert than a pure personnel GM. Although most of the Jets personnel decisions were made by committee (and to that end Ryan deserves his fair share of the blame particularly for Sanchez who he was very high on coming out of school), he did engneer a number of high profile trades including Brett Favre, and Cromartie. Woody is rumored to respect his business acumen, and for that reason, I expected him to be bumped up to the role of president or to have his role changed to some kind of cap expert while the Jets brought in a pure personnel GM to handle the draft and trades, and maybe oversee the operation. But I guess that managment structure would have been kind of convoluted. Plus, somebody highly visible had to take the fall, either Ryan or Tannenbaum.

Sparano is likley a goner too. Good riddance. Mike Pettine, the Jets Defensive Coordinator is unsigned for next season. He is highly respected around the league and will likely move on. Westhead, the Special Teams coordinator is retiring. He is a good coach, but the Jets special teams were atypically sucky this year.

ZippyTheChimp
January 9th, 2013, 01:58 PM
I guess it was expected that Rex Ryan would survive, but at least I thought he would take Tannenbaum's place at the edge of the cliff in 2013.

But after the douchebaggery of the Jets' press conference, it looks like Ryan will get a pass even if the team doesn't make the playoffs. Bad enough that it will be difficult to hire a quality GM who doesn't get to hire his own coach, but worse is that Ryan will be involved in the process of choosing his boss.

After throwing a few ex-members of the organization under the bus, Ryan tossed his own four-year career under there, pronouncing that he is starting over.

What a mess. The real football-idiot is Johnson. There are a few football owners who have a parallel relationship with their GM and coaches, but they are experienced football families. Johnson isn't one of them. He should hire a GM and give him control of the team.

Rex's brother Rob didn't survive; he was fired as the Cowboy's defensive coordinator.

eddhead
January 9th, 2013, 08:48 PM
I did not expect Rex to be fired. I am not really sure he is all that bad a coach, although he needs to take responsiblilty for the lack of imagination on offense, and for hiring Sporano, a truly odd move. Strip away all the circus that is the Jet for a moment and look at the root cause of their problems. As I have posted previously, it is personnel, not coaching; frankly from a pure talent perspective, they are just not that good a football team.

And Rex has to accept his share of the blame for that. Tannenbaum never was a personnel guy; his strength has always been in working the cap and structuring deals. He stole Curtis Martin from the Pats years ago by structuring a deal that New England could not match, despite their desire to do just that. But Martin was never his choice, it was Parcells. Parcells selected the player, and Tannenbaum made it happen. Same thing with Cromartie and Holmes who were Ryan's choices made to happen by Tannenbaum.

Even the draft picks - Harris, and Revis were Mangini choices. Sanchez, Hill, Greene were Ryan choices. He is accountable for the those draft picks, just as he is for Wilson, Wilkerson and Coples. Some were good, others horrible, but for the most part, he owns them

The difference is that in the end, it was Tannenbaum who extended Sanchez's contract, leaving the Jets vulnerable to an $8MM to $17MM cap hit (depending on timing) in the event they choose to cut him. This was a dumb move that Johnson could never excuse and more than anything led to Tannenbaum's dismissal. And Ryan is not responsible for that.

IMO, Tannenbam might have actually survived in a different capacity with the Jets (deal maker, cap expert) while the Jets brought in a hard core personnel guy, had he not extended Sanchez. But compounding wasting a 5th overall pick, with this kind of blunder was inexcusable

I am not so convinced that Ryan is free and clear after 2014. Remember the Browns brought in Holmgren who kept Mangini on for one year before cutting him lose when his contract expired, despite the fact that you could argue the Browns showed impressive improvement during Mangini's second year. But he was not Holmgren's guy. And 2013 is going to be a tough year for a Jet's team that needs a starting QB, speed and youth at LB, depth at WR and TE, and is salary cap restrained.

But if the Browns are the test case, remember their move (or lack of move) on the head coach allowed Holmgen a chance to evaluate his HC, and to transition to the next one. Don't be surprised if the same thing happens here, despite Johnsons public support of Ryan. No worthwhile GM is going to take this job unless they have an absolute assurance they can bring their guy in when the next season ends. As dumb as Johnson is, he knows that much.

ZippyTheChimp
January 9th, 2013, 09:53 PM
I disagree that coaching isn't a major part of the problem. And I mean head coaching, the guy who runs the show, not the X and O coordinators.

Woody Johnson doesn't have a clue. The owner doesn't have to give public verbal assurances to an employee under contract. The fact that he still has the job is assurance enough.


Weak Woody bamboozled by Rex

No one is buyin' Ryan anymore -- except the Jets' clueless owner, who is all-in

By Ian O'Connor | ESPNNewYork.com
Updated: January 8, 2013, 8:14 PM

FLORHAM PARK, N.J. -- As the news conference wore on, as it became crystal clear Rex Ryan is the de facto owner of the New York Jets, Woody Johnson kept shrinking under the moment, retreating from his microphone as his voice turned unsteady and faint.

A billionaire by trade, Johnson all but disappeared as the walls of a packed room closed in around the table he shared with his head coach, who didn't let a 6-10 record or two consecutive end-of-season collapses stop him from filling the place with his extra-large persona.

It was a fascinating study in body language and self-confidence, or lack thereof, and when it mercifully ended inside the team's practice facility Tuesday, this much was clear:

The Jets are a weak franchise under a weak owner.

A great-grandson of a Johnson & Johnson co-founder, Woody is a neighborly, born-on-third-base guy who has no clue how to reach home plate. He so badly wants to be buddies with the tatted-up Ryan, so badly wants to be that nerdy physics professor welcomed into the locker room by the popular coaches and jocks, he's allowed Rex to not only have a say in the appointment of his next boss, but to survive a startling confession that should've gotten him fired on the spot.

For the first time in anyone's memory, a head coach actually admitted he's tried in vain over four years -- four years -- to establish an identity on the offensive side of the ball. "I just have failed in that area," Ryan said before adding, "I think it's clear that that's where I've come up short."

Ryan is working in the same division as Tom Brady, in the same conference as Peyton Manning, and he still has no idea how to develop a quarterback or a game plan that consistently puts points on the board?

And better yet, despite this gaping hole in Ryan's game, Johnson thought it was a great idea to spare him the fate assigned to his general manager, Mike Tannenbaum?

"Having been in business and in football for quite a while now, you can recognize talent when you see it," said Johnson, who maintained that "extenuating circumstances" -- i.e., the injuries to Santonio Holmes and Darrelle Revis -- persuaded him to rule out a firing of Rex. "I think Rex Ryan is perfect for the New York Jets."

So it's official: The used-car salesman inside Ryan has sold his employer a lemon. Rex has sold Woody on the idea that the same Jets who commanded the undivided attention of ESPN and "Hard Knocks" and, for the past nine days, reporters, photographers and headline writers from here to Atlantis will be reduced to an afterthought with a new head coach.

Woody would rather watch another of his favored political candidates lose an election than watch his franchise get reduced to semi-relevance, again, in a New York Giants town. That's why there was a better chance of Johnson showing up Tuesday to announce a two-year extension to Ryan's contract than there was of Johnson showing up without the coach by his side.

They made a cute couple, too, Rex in his striped, green tie and buttoned-up, long-sleeve shirt (no tattoo exposed on this day) and Woody in his glasses, dark suit and a green tie of his own. But outside of Ryan's stated devotion to his wife and his half-joking claim that the tattoo of Michelle wearing a Mark Sanchez jersey would be altered if the quarterback doesn't pick it up, nothing the coach or the owner said made any sense.

With full knowledge of the disclosure Ryan was about to make, Johnson opened the morning with an apology for the news conference delay and with his opinion that Ryan, who admittedly lost his locker room late last year in starting a wretched 6-13 run as coach, "has a rare ability ... as a leader." Johnson actually claimed those leadership skills carried over to the offense, too, because as a defensive coach Ryan has had "to fight against those [offenses]. So he's learned a lot and he's got great instinct."

Good heavens. As Rex sat a few feet away, preparing to announce to the world that he's screwed up the offense, his owner was practically swearing he was another Bill Walsh.

"I have the ultimate confidence in Rex as a head coach," Johnson would say, "as a leader, as a motivator, as a playcaller -- if he has to do it."

Jets fans can only hope Ryan won't have to do it. Rex has already run out two offensive coordinators in Brian Schottenheimer and Tony Sparano, and maybe Johnson will let him run out another two before finally showing Rex the door.

Of course, Ryan should've been fired with Tannenbaum on New Year's Eve. "We made a ton of decisions together," Rex conceded before making a wildly unconvincing case for why he deserved to stay and the GM did not.

The coach spoke boldly of a brand-new day, of a fresh plan to mold his players into a team the rest of the NFL will fear. "You're not going to want to play the New York Jets," he said.

Ryan kept talking about building an unpredictable offense, this after neglecting the quarterback who embodied that approach, Tim Tebow. Ryan kept talking about establishing an aggressive, attacking offense to match his aggressive, attacking defense, and yet he was painfully short on specifics. Ryan kept talking about the need for innovative ideas in play calling, yet made the absurd remark that Sparano -- the guy he'd just fired -- "did a tremendous job" in his one-and-done season.

The head coach and owner were so full of it Tuesday, a laugh track would've been appropriate for most of their responses. The Jets need a starting quarterback (Ryan and Johnson ruled Sanchez's position an open one), a general manager, two or three high-level playmakers and an offensive coordinator. They need the in-house promotion, Dennis Thurman, to be a better defensive coordinator than the fleeing Mike Pettine, who knows how this movie is going to end.

Four years after booking a Super Bowl-winning trip to the White House in his introductory presser, Ryan couldn't bring himself to even speak the words. "One day," he said in the hour of his undeserved reprieve, "we want to be, you know, we know what we want to accomplish."

It's been a spectacular plunge for Rex, but at least Woody was there to cushion the fall. No head coach admits what Ryan admitted to his boss and remains gainfully employed, but in weakness Johnson somehow saw strength.

"One of the things that impresses me about Rex as a leader," the owner said, "is that he knows where he wants to improve and he's committed to do that."

Ryan said he was concerned about getting fired, and it turned out he shouldn't have wasted the time and energy sweating it. Johnson had no intention of letting the GM-to-be make that call, not when he could compromise the search in a Same Old Jets way by forcing that GM to keep a coach he might not want.

"We're going to have all the pieces to put something really great on the field," Johnson said, "led by Rex."

As it turns out, everything and everyone is led by Rex, including a sucker named Woody Johnson, a billionaire who would pay anything to be one of the coach's guys.

©2013 ESPN Internet Ventures.

eddhead
January 9th, 2013, 10:06 PM
I am sorry, but Ian O'Connor is a tool. For that matter, so is Rich Cimini.

I stand by my above post. Ryan has his weaknesses, but overall he is a good coach with limitations. He does not always make good personnel decisions, and he his decision to hire Sporano was hair-brained. But he does a good job of motivating his players, and once you strip away all the B.S., I think he has a real vision for this franchise. Let's not forget how dramatically the Jets brand changed during his first two years as HC. As a Giant's fan you may not want to hear this, but the Jets came very close to owning NY football from late 2009 when they made they made the conference finals, right up until the time they lost the Giants game last year. And, if they could have pulled the stadium deal off and identified themselves as a Manhattan franchise, all bets would have been off.

You might not have liked he bluster, but from 2009 on thru last year's Giants game (a real turning point in my estimation), the team walked with a real strut in its step. I loved it when he busted out of the runway before games screaming "Here come the Jets, baby" because he believed it as did his team, and the fans. As beaten down as this franchise has been throughout the years, we desperately need that kind of bravado and tough-minded attitude.

Johnson is an idiot of course but we are stuck with him. We need a personnel guy.

ZippyTheChimp
January 10th, 2013, 12:14 PM
I am sorry, but Ian O'Connor is a tool.Tool or not, there were several notable facts in the article that show Ryan has not learned anything from the past four yeas - like "You're not going to want to play the NY Jets."

This after, "We're going to win the Super Bowl," and last year's "Defenses aren't going to know what to expect."

Please.


But he does a good job of motivating his players, and once you strip away all the B.S., I think he has a real vision for this franchise.If by motivation, you mean that they like to play for him, well, I'm sure of that. He doesn't ask much, let's them do and say what they want, with no accountability. They shoot off their mouths, and when the press reports it, they blame the press.

And that sort of motivation doesn't instill loyalty. If his players really respected him as a coach, they wouldn't have quit on him the last three games of the season, when there was doubt he would keep his job.

After missing the playoffs in 2009 and 2010, Coughlin was under the gun in 2011. The Giants had a big game in Dallas, and Coughlin benched Bradshaw for the entire first half, for a curfew violation. Jacobs had a big game, and the Giants won.

That's how you motivate players.


Let's not forget how dramatically the Jets brand changed during his first two years as HC.The Jets brand is what got them in trouble even before Ryan got there. The Jets brand led Woody to go after Favre, and last year sign Tebow.


As a Giant's fan you may not want to hear this, but the Jets came very close to owning NY football from late 2009 when they made they made the conference finals, right up until the time they lost the Giants game last year.I mentioned it in the Brooklyn Nets thread - that they shouldn't worry about the Knicks brand. I said the Giants were absent from postseason relevance the first 15 years of the Super Bowl, when the Jets had Joe Namath. There were complaints by the fans, even an airplane & banner flying over the Meadowlands at halftime; but at no time in that span were they in danger of losing New York.

The Giants are secure in their identity and their fanbase. The Jets have the same thing, but they don't trust it.


And, if they could have pulled the stadium deal off and identified themselves as a Manhattan franchise, all bets would have been off.That's a moot point, but it brings up another Jets branding mistake. They should have built their own stadium in Queens, but Queens wasn't good enough for Woody and his brand.


You might not have liked he bluster, but from 2009 on thru last year's Giants game (a real turning point in my estimation), the team walked with a real strut in its step.That gets old fast unless you win. I give you the 2012 season as an example. The most notable fan experience was Fireman Ed's retirement.

eddhead
January 10th, 2013, 03:36 PM
Tool or not, there were several notable facts in the article that show Ryan has not learned anything from the past four yeas - like "You're not going to want to play the NY Jets."

This after, "We're going to win the Super Bowl," and last year's "Defenses aren't going to know what to expect."

Please.

As I have alluded to several times previously, this side of Ryan, which was largely absent in 2012, is what I miss most about him. Non-Jets fans may be offended by his bravado, but I can assure you Jets' fans are not. Except for during the breif Parcell's era, this team has walked around with a dark cloud, woe is me attitude for 40 years. It is about time someone stepped up with a "you're not going to want to play the Jets" attitude. This is one of the things that was missing in 2012.

And I will remind you that while the boastful Ryan did not take the Jets to the superbowl he did lead them to the conference finals. And during that time, it was true; no one wanted to play the Jets.

Less boastfull Ryan had considerably less success.

If by motivation, you mean that they like to play for him, well, I'm sure of that. He doesn't ask much, let's them do and say what they want, with no accountability. They shoot off their mouths, and when the press reports it, they blame the press.


And that sort of motivation doesn't instill loyalty. If his players really respected him as a coach, they wouldn't have quit on him the last three games of the season, when there was doubt he would keep his job.

[quote]After missing the playoffs in 2009 and 2010, Coughlin was under the gun in 2011. The Giants had a big game in Dallas, and Coughlin benched Bradshaw for the entire first half, for a curfew violation. Jacobs had a big game, and the Giants won.

That's how you motivate players.

That is how Coughlin motivates players. And I will remind you, you can bench a 1000 yard runner when you have another 1000 yard runner waiting in the wings. The Jets do not have that kind of depth.

Who in your estimation quit on him. What players? Did Sabnchez run into Moore's butt because he quit on him, or because he just isn't a very good QB? Are you sure this isn't a personnel issue?


The Jets brand is what got them in trouble even before Ryan got there. The Jets brand led Woody to go after Favre, and last year sign Tebow.

My point exactly.


I mentioned it in the Brooklyn Nets thread - that they shouldn't worry about the Knicks brand. I said the Giants were absent from postseason relevance the first 15 years of the Super Bowl, when the Jets had Joe Namath. There were complaints by the fans, even an airplane & banner flying over the Meadowlands at halftime; but at no time in that span were they in danger of losing New York.

I am not so sure that is true. The Giants have a very loyal following of long time fans. To a lesser extent, the Jets do to. The battle is over the new or non-traditional fan.

When the Jets were making playoff runs in 2009 and 2010, NYC Jets fans busted out of the woodwork. All of a sudden everyone wanted to be associated with the Jets. Equally to the point however, out of town fans starting following the team as well. For instance my 7 year old nephew who lives in Chicago was suddenly a Jets fan, and still is. So was his dad. Despite the viturol you hear about Rex, they were as attracted to the team's attitude and uprgraded brand as they were to the team's success.


The Giants are secure in their identity and their fanbase. The Jets have the same thing, but they don't trust it.

The Jets were more secure in their identiy when they acutally had one. They were a tough and aggressive defensive team who used smart blitz packages to pressure th QB, and a solid secondary in coverage. On offense, they were unspectatular but played hard smash-mouth football and controlled the clock.

I don't know what the hell they are now, but they need to get back to a variation of that with more emphesis on deep passing (not dunk stuff) to augment their ground game.


That's a moot point, but it brings up another Jets branding mistake. They should have built their own stadium in Queens, but Queens wasn't good enough for Woody and his brand.
Queens would have been better than MetLife. Manhattan would have been best of all.

ZippyTheChimp
January 10th, 2013, 04:56 PM
Non-Jets fans may be offended by his bravado, but I can assure you Jets' fans are not.Offended? Not really the right word for a non-Jet fan.. Many of my friends grew up in NE Queens, and are Jets fans. I think offended would be their attitude right now.


And I will remind you that while the boastful Ryan did not take the Jets to the superbowl he did lead them to the conference finals. And during that time, it was true; no one wanted to play the Jets.If you want to analyze those years, the Jets got some lucky breaks at the end of the season (playing games that were meaningless to the opposition). The only impressive game was against San Diego, and as was subsequently shown, SD has their own problems with choking. Ryan deluded himself into thinking the team was better than it was, while a good coach would have realized that they still needed work.

And what did he say this year - that this was the best team he ever coached?


That is how Coughlin motivates players. And I will remind you, you can bench a 1000 yard runner when you have another 1000 yard runner waiting in the wings. The Jets do not have that kind of depth.Jacobs was no 1000 yd runner in 2011. He was clearly a big step down from Bradshaw. But you miss the point. It's not just about being able to replace a player because you have a deep bench. It's about who controls the team.


Did Sabnchez run into Moore's butt because he quit on him, or because he just isn't a very good QB? Are you sure this isn't a personnel issue?I think quitting was a group effort. The 49er players said as much after that game. I don't think Sanchez quit at all; I think the team quit on him. Look what happened in the Arizona game. McElroy came in and threw for a grand total of 29 yards, but the rest of the team suddenly picked it up.

Players began to snipe at Sanchez in 2011. They even gave it to Tebow. What did he do, except not get a chance to play?

As for personnel, Ryan bears as much responsibility as Tannenbaum. He said, "We made a ton of decisions together." Ryan was handed a 9-7 team depite the blowup over Favre. Tannenbaum got Ryan the QB he wanted. Then Ryan spent the next four years turning a promising rookie into a basket case.


I am not so sure that is true. The Giants have a very loyal following of long time fans.The battle you imagine is the same battle between the Yankees and Mets, and the Knicks and Nets.

It's a Yankee town.
It's a Knicks town.
It's a Giants town.

But it's a big town, and there's room for all six.


Queens would have been better than MetLife. Manhattan would have been best of all.This is exactly what I mean by identity.

What does Manhattan have to do with it? The Giants went out to the wetlands of New Jersey and won four Super Bowls. The Packers play in little Green Bay. The point of Queens is that they would have their own place.

eddhead
January 11th, 2013, 12:03 PM
In the interest of time and brevity, I will be brief:

1. I did not suggest Jets fans were not offended by last year's perfomance. I suggested they were not offended by Ryan's bravado during the 2009 and 2010 season. Indeed, most fans welcomed it and the success that came along with it.

2. I have said all along that Ryan has at best,a mixed record as a talent evaluator, but I don't even think he really thought this was a great team, although I do think he expected to have a dominant defense. Still his comment on this being his best team was either pure BS or based on the presumption he would dominate defensively.
.
3.To get to the conference finals in 2 consecutive years, the Jets had to win 4 playoff road games. In at least 3 of these games, they were underdogs, and they were underdogs in the finals. The most impressive of these was not San Diego, it was New England in 2010, followed by Indianapolis in 2011, two teams that were widely predicted to win the AFC Championship and get to the Superbowl. They knocked off 2 presumptive AFC Superbowl favorites in consecutive years, those wins were not lucky.

4.Fair enough point on Jacobs but he did have a strong history of success in the league. I will concede that Coughlin and Ryan use different methods to motivate. I will not concede that Ryan does not motivate.

5. The Jets played disgracefully against the 49ers, much as the Giants did against the Falcons while they were fighting for a playoff birth. But the Jets responded with a strong effort against the Texans the following week. How did the Giants do in their next game the Ravens, with the playoffs on the line? Can we infer from this that they quit? If so, what does that say about Coughlin as a motivator?

6. Have you read my posts? I have stated over and over again, that Ryan bears at least as much if not more responibilty for Jets' personnel decisons as Tannenbaum does, and he needs to be held accountable for that. I also stated that Tannenbaum did not get dismissed for drafting Sanchez (a decsions Ryan heavily influenced if not drove) but for extending his contract, leaving the Jets vulnerable for up to a $17M cap hit in the event they chopped him. Both were bad decisons. The second was mind-boggling, and unforgivable.

7. Tebow sucks. He is not an NFL QB.

8. Was NY a Yankee town in 1969 or 1973? Was it a Giants town when Namath was in his prime?

The west side stadium may not have been good for Manhattan, but it would have been great for the Jets.

ZippyTheChimp
January 11th, 2013, 12:59 PM
I have read your posts, and if you believe that Ryan bears an equal responsibility with Tannenbaum, then both should have been fired.

It's not so much a question of fairness, and that it leaves a problem in place - which it does; but beyond that, it creates a new problem that's a recipe for failure. The new GM - assuming they get a good one that is willing to operate under the circumstances - will be hamstrung in how he deals with the coaching staff. It it begins to fall apart next year, it will be harder for the GM to assume control and start over.

The GM has to be the boss.

The Giants didn't hire Bill Parcells. They hired GM George Young, who in turn hired Parcells. In 1979, Giants ownership was in turmoil and ineffectual. Wellington co-owned the team with his nephew Tim. They didn't get along. The team hadn't made the playoffs for 15 years. Wellington made all football decisions, and decided to hire a coach before a GM. Tim thought otherwise, and the fight led the commissioner to step in and offer a list of GM candidates. The co-owners agreed on George Young.

I see the Jets in the same situation, but they've taken the wrong road. NFL HCs are fired all the time. When you've let the GM and both coordinators go and aren't sure about your QB, there's no good reason not to clean house completely.


Was NY a Yankee town in 1969 or 1973? Was it a Giants town when Namath was in his prime? Yes to both.

The only time any of these teams faced the possibility of losing control of the city was in the mid 1980s. The Mets looked like they were building a dynasty, won a WS, and had two great, young players. At that time, the Yankees weren't even at their lowest point, which came around 1990. There was an opportunity for the Mets to take over, but they dropped out of sight.

eddhead
January 11th, 2013, 01:35 PM
I have read your posts, and if you believe that Ryan bears an equal responsibility with Tannenbaum, then both should have been fired.

Once again, it was extending Sanhez's contract that got Tannenbaum fired, not the decison that led to him being drafted, nor othe personnel decisons . Had he not done that, he likely would have stayed on in some diminished role as salary cap expert/ deal maker, while the Jets brought in a proven talent evaluator as GM


The GM has to be the boss.

I acknowledged as much previously, which is why I am not convinced Ryan will stay on after 2013/14 season. Refer to my Brown's case study where Holgren let Mangini stay on for one year.



The only time any of these teams faced the possibility of losing control of the city was in the mid 1980s. The Mets looked like they were building a dynasty, won a WS, and had two great, young players. At that time, the Yankees weren't even at their lowest point, which came around 1990. There was an opportunity for the Mets to take over, but they dropped out of sight.

The Yankees' lowest point was the late 60's early 70's when the value of th franchise went ftom $11BN to 10BN and CBS sold the team to the Steinbrenner led contingent at a loss. The team was not drawing, had a dilapidated stadium, minimal fan support, and was losing money. The Mets had a dymanic young pitchng staff led by Tom Seaver, Cleon Jones, Tommy Agee an Bud Harrelson. The Yankess had a washed up Mickey Mantle (through 68), Horace Clarke, and Joe Pepitone, and a solid but not spectacular Mel Stottlemeyer. The town was owned by the Mets.

The Giant's situaton in the late 60's wasn't quite as dire, but there is no doubt that the Jets took over the town during that period.

ZippyTheChimp
January 11th, 2013, 03:56 PM
How did the Giants do in their next game the Ravens, with the playoffs on the line? Can we infer from this that they quit? If so, what does that say about Coughlin as a motivator?Maybe they did; it's a fair question. But I said at the beginning of the season that it would be a difficult season for the Giants, partly due to a post-championship letdown.

I don't think any Jets fan wants to go to a place where Ryan is compared to Coughlin. Coughlin won us two Super Bowls. We give him a pass.


Once again, it was extending Sanhez's contract that got Tannenbaum fired, not the decison that led to him being drafted, nor othe personnel decisons.Did anyone state that? Seems to me all you could say is that he was fired for not doing his job well.


Had he not done that, he likely would have stayed on in some diminished role as salary cap expert/ deal maker, while the Jets brought in a proven talent evaluator as GMThe bottom line is that he still would have been fired as GM. If the Jets had kept Ryan as the team tattoo artist, he still would have been fired as head coach.


The team was not drawing, had a dilapidated stadium, minimal fan support, and was losing money. The Mets had a dymanic young pitchng staff led by Tom Seaver, Cleon Jones, Tommy Agee an Bud Harrelson. The Yankess had a washed up Mickey Mantle (through 68), Horace Clarke, and Joe Pepitone, and a solid but not spectacular Mel Stottlemeyer. The town was owned by the Mets.If the Mets had owned NYC, then the Yankees would have had a struggle to get it back. But one big complaint of Mets fans when Steinbrenner bought the team - even before the WS wins - was that the Yankees dominated the newspaper back pages. Where did these fans suddenly appear from?

The team was still close to the championship years. You don't forget and drop players lake Mantle, Ford Berra, et al, over a few years. The Mets were one-and-done, and any team in any sport owns the city the year they win a championship.


The Giant's situaton in the late 60's wasn't quite as dire, but there is no doubt that the Jets took over the town during that period.I'm not sure if this is a typo, but in the late 60s, the Giants were in the same place as the Yankees - close to the pre NFL merger championships. Given what the Packers had done in SBs I and II, the AFL wasn't taken seriously in NFL cities until SB III. The Jets owned the city after SB III (but like I said above...). Namath was injured for most of the rest of his career, and the Jets still played as second-class citizens at Shea. The Giants fan base always had big presence in the decade, even more than now.

If by "not quite as dire," you mean compared to today's Jets situation, then we're back to 1979, and I have to say that only a Jets fan absorbed in self pity could minimize the effect on a fanbase of a founding iconic franchise being shut out of the entire Super Bowl era, watching their former defensive coordinator take an upstart division rival to two championships. Let's not forget what a former offensive coordinator did with the Packers. And we had our Sanchez Butt Slam incident with Joe Pisarcik.

For all the moaning, the Jets over the last 15 years haven't been that bad. Since 1998, their record has been 125-115. 8 winning seasons. 7 times in the playoffs.

Not great, but a lot of teams are worse.

Maybe Ryan has learned something, and it will be different; but I'm betting that it will be the same-old. You'd think he would have learned from last year, but 2012 was more of the same. The press conference, which BTW violated NFL media rules, was still more of the same.

eddhead
January 12th, 2013, 02:41 PM
Maybe they did; it's a fair question. But I said at the beginning of the season that it would be a difficult season for the Giants, partly due to a post-championship letdown.

I don't think any Jets fan wants to go to a place where Ryan is compared to Coughlin. Coughlin won us two Super Bowls. We give him a pass.

My point was not to compare Ryan to Coughlin. It was to illustrate that even teams with great coaches sometimes let down during key moments in a season for unexplainable reasons. It is true, that Football HC's have more impact on their teams than other sports coaches do, but even the best of them (and I think Coughlin qualifies) do not have 100% control over how hard their teams compete every game.

And you are right; Coughlin has two Superbowl rings, and is a likley HOF coach. As for Ryan, the story is not yet known. But what we do know is that in 4 years as Head Coach, he has made the conference finals twice despite needing to win 4 road playoff games against 3 top rated teams, 2 of whom where widely regarded as conference championship favorites. Taken as a whole, this is a pretty good start, not dissimilar to Coughlin's start with the Jags.


Did anyone state that? Seems to me all you could say is that he was fired for not doing his job well.

Yes, I said that- LOL. Honestly I thought it was obvious that it was conjecture on my part, but conjecture backed by solid logic. Sanchez was a no. 5 overall and an apparent bust. Still, he performed well enough in his first 2 years to get the Jets deep into the playoffs, before regressing in years 3 and 4. Had the Jets not resigned him last year, they could have started the search for a replacement franchise QB in 2013. Salary cap restrictions directly resulting from his signing prevent them from doing so. That is a glaring error and someone had to pay for it. The right person did.


The bottom line is that he still would have been fired as GM. If the Jets had kept Ryan as the team tattoo artist, he still would have been fired as head coach.
I am not sure I know what that means.


If the Mets had owned NYC, then the Yankees would have had a struggle to get it back. But one big complaint of Mets fans when Steinbrenner bought the team - even before the WS wins - was that the Yankees dominated the newspaper back pages. Where did these fans suddenly appear from?

I think they did struggle to get it back. It took new ownership on the Yankees, (a positive), new management on the Mets (Negative), breaking into free agent market, signing Messersmith, Hunter, Jacskon and Gossage, trading for Figueroa, Randolf, Dent, and Rivers, a winning pennants and WS combined with utter turmoil in the Mets front office leading to the tradings of Seaver, Koosman, and Matlack, to turn public perception on both franchises. The Yankees resurgence of the mid 70's coincided with a dismal collapse of a once very popular Mets franchise (1962-74ish) to the point where if you went to Shea you could hear your voice echo around the stadium.

The team was still close to the championship years. You don't forget and drop players lake Mantle, Ford Berra, et al, over a few years. The Mets were one-and-done, and any team in any sport owns the city the year they win a championship.

The fact is the Mets were the darlings of NY even BEFORE 1969. The Amazing Mets of the Stengle era captured the hearts of NY fans at the exact time the Yankee franchise began crumbling. They fell apart when M. Donald Grant ruined the franchise culminating in the trade of Tom Seaver for 2 cans of tomatoes.


I'm not sure if this is a typo, but in the late 60s, the Giants were in the same place as the Yankees - close to the pre NFL merger championships. Given what the Packers had done in SBs I and II, the AFL wasn't taken seriously in NFL cities until SB III. The Jets owned the city after SB III (but like I said above...). Namath was injured for most of the rest of his career, and the Jets still played as second-class citizens at Shea. The Giants fan base always had big presence in the decade, even more than now.
I think the analogy is fair, and that all of what you say about the Jets is true, although I would argue the demise of the team and its standing had more to do with Werblin selling out to corporate types like Iselin and Hess, than it did with any inherent bias in the market for the Giants. My point is the Jets do not have to be the second tiered franchise in the market. With the right branding and on the field success they have the capacity to challenge the Giants. Say what you will, but during Ryan's first two years in NY they did challenge the Giants for brand superiority. It may have been a fleeting moment, but that is only because they fell apart the


If by "not quite as dire," you mean compared to today's Jets situation, then we're back to 1979, and I have to say that only a Jets fan absorbed in self pity could minimize the effect on a fanbase of a founding iconic franchise being shut out of the entire Super Bowl era, watching their former defensive coordinator take an upstart division rival to two championships. Let's not forget what a former offensive coordinator did with the Packers. And we had our Sanchez Butt Slam incident with Joe Pisarcik

For all the moaning, the Jets over the last 15 years haven't been that bad. Since 1998, their record has been 125-115. 8 winning seasons. 7 times in the playoffs.

Not great, but a lot of teams are worse.

Fair enough, but the Giants have had their share of proud moments too - and many of them, and you know what they say; "Same Old Jets", and not just in New York either. This is an iconoclastic reputation known throughout the football world.

One division title since 1969, and one superbowl, 44 years ago


Maybe Ryan has learned something, and it will be different; but I'm betting that it will be the same-old. You'd think he would have learned from last year, but 2012 was more of the same. The press conference, which BTW violated NFL media rules, was still more of the same. As I said, the jury is still out. I am not even sure he will be here in 2014 - in fact I think odds are against it. But I am rooting for him and open to seeing what happens next.

ZippyTheChimp
January 15th, 2013, 03:33 PM
My point was not to compare Ryan to Coughlin. It was to illustrate that even teams with great coaches sometimes let down during key moments in a season for unexplainable reasons.The Giants collapse is inexplicable. The coach has stated in interviews that he can't explain it; neither have football analysts.


As for Ryan, the story is not yet known.I don't think you can just average the four years. He inherited a winning team with a QB problem, which was fixed. He also inherited maybe the best CB in the NFL, which afforded him a lot of freedom on defense. Sanchez showed good development from his rookie to 2nd year (for which Ryan was AWOL). They had a pretty good team in 2009 and 2010, and deservedly went to the playoffs. Ryan presided over the destruction of the offense in 2011, and worse, didn't recognize and correct it in 2012. And the locker room deteriorated.

Where the Jets stand right now isn't a surprise to many analysts.

The last two years is how I would judge him, and there was nothing good about it. I said several posts ago that I didn't think he would get fired, but I did think he deserved to go on the bubble. Instead, Johnson has exonerated him from blame. The message should be "I have to produce or I'm out of here," not "I'm starting over."

The entire press conference, which violated NFL media rules, only advanced the perception that the Jets are not a well-run organization. They don't need the coach stating that a revelation came to him while on vacation, at the pool.

Please. Just shut up and coach. No one takes this stuff seriously.


I think they did struggle to get it back.I think you're confusing owning the city , which is strictly the fanbase, with being the more interesting team, which the Mets were. The 60s and 70s Yankees fans never left. Of course, they had to start winning, or the connection to the past would have been eventually lost, but that didn't happen. The Yankees were more vulnerable in the mid 80s, but the Mets didn't take advantage.

The Giants were everything except interesting from 1964 to 1979. With only a couple of games being televised at that time, the blackout rule had an ironic twist on Giants fans. The joke was - if the team wasn't so popular, the games would be blacked out locally, and we'd get to see better teams play.

We used to drive to New Haven to see home games in the miserable Yale Bowl. I think they won one game there in two years. I remember a bone-chilling 31-7 loss to the Vikings in 6 inches of snow; especially galling that after the Giants traded Tarkington back to the Vikings, he took them to the SB three times. Or the first NFL OT game - Jets at Giants in New Haven. Namath fakes a handoff, and limps into the end zone. Giants miss a FG in OT, and eventually lose.

Still, we packed the Yale Bowl. I could go on and on. Jet fans have no exclusive rights on misery.


and you know what they say; "Same Old Jets", and not just in New York either. This is an iconoclastic reputation known throughout the football world.A self-fulfilling prophesy. There are worse teams that somehow don't carry that label, as bad as their history is.

Arizona Cardinals: One glowing moment, when they went to the SB. Otherwise. worst overall record in the NFL.
NO Saints: They had no trouble branding the franchise, but they were terrible - until they did the right things, getting players including a QB.
Cinc Bengals: they have never won a SB, may have finally turned it around.
Tampa Bay Bucs: One SB, but otherwise 2nd worst record.
Detroit Lions: Never been to SB. Go from 10 straight losing seasons (including 0-16) to 10-6 and the playoffs. Give it all back this year with a 4-12 season and a "franchise player" who may wind up in jail for killing someone.

I don't think you change the culture of losing by branding the franchise. That only sells seats. A good model for the Jets may be Buck Showalter and the Orioles.

eddhead
January 15th, 2013, 04:38 PM
.

I don't think you can just average the four years. He inherited a winning team with a QB problem, which was fixed. He also inherited maybe the best CB in the NFL, which afforded him a lot of freedom on defense. Sanchez showed good development from his rookie to 2nd year (for which Ryan was AWOL). They had a pretty good team in 2009 and 2010, and deservedly went to the playoffs. Ryan presided over the destruction of the offense in 2011, and worse, didn't recognize and correct it in 2012. And the locker room deteriorated.

Where the Jets stand right now isn't a surprise to many analysts.

The last two years is how I would judge him, and there was nothing good about it. I said several posts ago that I didn't think he would get fired, but I did think he deserved to go on the bubble. Instead, Johnson has exonerated him from blame. The message should be "I have to produce or I'm out of here," not "I'm starting over."

I think that is a bit simplistic. While Ryan inherited a winning team, it was a team that collapsed at the end of the 2008/09 season and dropped out of a playoff spot by losing 4 out its last 5 games. At that point, it was a completely demoralized franchise, definately on the downside.

He transformed that team's defense from one that was middle of the road to one that was arguably the best in the league, thereby establishing an identlty for the team not seen in years.



The entire press conference, which violated NFL media rules, only advanced the perception that the Jets are not a well-run organization. They don't need the coach stating that a revelation came to him while on vacation, at the pool.

Please. Just shut up and coach. No one takes this stuff seriously.

Well, I for one did not get the impression that the Jets were a well-run organization after that conference, nor did I get the sense that they were trying to convey that message. I will once again say however, that I will take the boisterous Ryan who boasts about other teams not wanting to play the Jets, over the meek Ryan anyday. Again, the Jets need that kind of attitude.


I think you're confusing owning the city , which is strictly the fanbase, with being the more interesting team, which the Mets were. The 60s and 70s Yankees fans never left. Of course, they had to start winning, or the connection to the past would have been eventually lost, but that didn't happen. The Yankees were more vulnerable in the mid 80s, but the Mets didn't take advantage.


The Mets outdrew the Yankees in attendence every year from 1964 to 1974, sometimes by quite a bit. This at a time where teams did not have cable contracts or own their own media centers, or reap significant benefits from merchandising. In other words, they outdrew them at a time when attendance really mattered.

As a Yankee fan, I am sorry to say this, but historically, until the mid-70's NY has always been a National League town. One need look no further than Ebbets Field to illustrate that point. Steinbrenner deserves a lot of credit for changing all of that.


The Giants were everything except interesting from 1964 to 1979. With only a couple of games being televised at that time, the blackout rule had an ironic twist on Giants fans. The joke was - if the team wasn't so popular, the games would be blacked out locally, and we'd get to see better teams play.


Actually, as a direct result of NFL and AFL blackout rules, ALL home games were blacked out in the 60's up to the time of the NFL/AFL merger irrespective of home attendence. That meant on any given Sunday, NY fans watched whichever NY team was on the road that week, either the Jets or the Giants, but not both. That is how a Jets fan like myself became so familar with Fran Tarkentun, Allie Sherman, Homer Jones, Earnie Koy, and Spider Lockhart.

It is also why to this day I generally root for the Giants (when they are not playing the Jets)

This is the time I grew up watching football. It is true that Giants had older, more established fans, but the Jets fanbase tended to be younger and hipper.

It was cool to be a Jets' fan. Not so much a Giants fan (except for you of coursd ;) )


Still, we packed the Yale Bowl. I could go on and on. Jet fans have no exclusive rights on misery.
As bad as the Yale Bowl was, it was hardly an improvement over Shea, a miserable place with an open end facing the bay, and where the wind and snow whipping thru the open end would cause fans to get frost bite. And forget about using the restrooms.

You have your Yale Bowl stories, I have my Shea in December stories. They are not pretty ones.

But I never claimed to have an exclusive right on misery. Only a lasting, pervasive, never-seeming-to-end one.


A self-fulfilling prophesy. There are worse teams that somehow don't carry that label, as bad as their history is.

One superbowl since 1969, one division championship since 1972. That is right, 1972.

Same old Jets.

I don't think you change the culture of losing by branding the franchise. That only sells seats. A good model for the Jets may be Buck Showalter and the Orioles.


I think there is a very direct correlation between brand and culture, or maybe it is just semantics. The bottomline is the Jets need to effect both.

ZippyTheChimp
January 15th, 2013, 05:53 PM
Again, the Jets need that kind of attitude.Good luck with that.


As a Yankee fan, I am sorry to say this, but historically, until the mid-70's NY has always been a National League town. One need look no further than Ebbets Field to illustrate that point. Steinbrenner deserves a lot of credit for changing all of that.Talk to your parents, aunts and uncles, if they were in NYC back then.


Actually, as a direct result of NFL and AFL blackout rules, ALL home games were blacked out in the 60's up to the time of the NFL/AFL merger irrespective of home attendence.I'm talking about post-merger. Do you think that Giants fans got so depressed in only 6 years?


As bad as the Yale Bowl was, it was hardly an improvement over Shea, a miserable place with an open end facing the bay, and where the wind and snow whipping thru the open end would cause fans to get frost bite. And forget about using the restrooms.Please. Two hour drive to sit on benches in a flat concrete bowl in winter in the northeast. Didn't see one winning game.


It was cool to be a Jets' fan. Not so much a Giants fan.This may be the source of the biggest attitude problem of the Jets vis-a-vis the Giants. It existed in the 70s (maybe more justified back then), but still there today. Even when the Giants were terrible, fan loyalty was very high; I think that many Jets fans saw this as arrogant - loyalty to a team that was worse than theirs.

Giants fans back then didn't care about the Jets. Our misery was focused on the Cowboys and Redskins. We just wanted a winning team that could compete in the playoffs; got our wish in the 80s. The team brand didn't get flashy or cool - well, maybe LT, but you can't say that about Simms. We were happy.

It's playing out again. When the Giants failed in the recent past, they just tried to fix it in the off season. No embarrassing pre-season bragging to answer for. No covering up SB murals or complaining about the practice facilities. To me, unless someone can give me a logical football reason, acquiring Tim Tebow was all about branding, and nothing else.


I think there is a very direct correlation between brand and culture, or maybe it is just semantics. The bottomline is the Jets need to effect both.The brand the Jets now have is ineptitude. The culture they have is losing.

Some teams have pulled off both brand and culture - Oakland Raiders had to contend with a winning team across the Bay, and they established a unique character while still winning.

The Jets have the brand over the Giants. They'll get the back pages throughout the off season; and while they criticize them, the press loves it. Good material.

Again with Showalter, he didn't change the brand of the Orioles. He's not cool; he's a grumpy old man. what he changed was the culture of losing. He removed a picure from the clubhouse of an Oriole triple play, because they lost the game. Then he made his players accountable for their jobs.

eddhead
January 16th, 2013, 11:56 AM
Good luck with that.

I would likely feel the same way if I did not belieive the Jets had that attained that attitude from Ryan's first year thru the middle of last year. Again, the turning point for me was the loss against the Giants


Talk to your parents, aunts and uncles, if they were in NYC back then.

My grandfather was an avid Dodgers fan. There was no doubt in his mind as to which team owned New York thru 1957.


I'm talking about post-merger. Do you think that Giants fans got so depressed in only 6 years?

For every Joe Pisarcik story you have, I have many more Richard Todd to AJ Dewey stories. Or Mark Gastineau fanthom late hits on Bernie Kosar stories. Or Doug Brien missing playoff FG's (2, both to win) inside 43 yd stories. And don't get me started on Rich Kotite. Or Charlie Winner. Or John Riggins. Or Heidi.


Please. Two hour drive to sit on benches in a flat concrete bowl in winter in the northeast. Didn't see one winning game.

Three years at the Yale Bowl vs 20 at Shea?? In addition to the lack of creature comforts available to fans (like restrooms), let's not forget just how badly the Jets were treated as second class tenants during that time. Among other insults and disadvantages, the team was often subjected to playing most of its early schedule on the road so as not to damage the field for the mighty Mets.

Please indeed. My heart bleeds.


This may be the source of the biggest attitude problem of the Jets vis-a-vis the Giants. It existed in the 70s (maybe more justified back then), but still there today. Even when the Giants were terrible, fan loyalty was very high; I think that many Jets fans saw this as arrogant - loyalty to a team that was worse than theirs.

Giants fans back then didn't care about the Jets. Our misery was focused on the Cowboys and Redskins. We just wanted a winning team that could compete in the playoffs; got our wish in the 80s. The team brand didn't get flashy or cool - well, maybe LT, but you can't say that about Simms. We were happy.

Steve Write was a starting OT for the Giants in the 1970's. I read his book many years ago and remember reading about how the Giants were completely fixated on beating the Jets in a 1970 exhibition game, and how the Giant organization was generally fixated on the Jets. I found this excerpt at si.com



We really did lock in before the first Giants-Jets game, the exhibition in the Yale Bowl (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/The_Yale_Bowl/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), the first game ever played between the two teams. The Jets had waited for this for years. And Wellington (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Wellington/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) had kept them waiting. The Giants (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/New_York_Giants/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) had not only refused to play the Jets, they wouldn't admit the Jets existed. And then, when they finally did play, the Jets were the world champions. Everybody on the Giants (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/New_York_Giants/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) was very uptight. We were told not to say a word about the game. Allie said, "If I see anything in the paper, I'll cut you, I'll trade you in a minute. Don't give 'em a thing to work on. It's just another football game. We're gonna lock in and we're not gonna cop out."

So when anybody talked to a Giant, the Giant would say, "It's just another game, just an exhibition. We're not going to do anything different."

Meanwhile, the Jets were saying, "We'll kill 'em. We're going to annihilate 'em. We're going to eat 'em up and spit 'em out."
So we finally played and we did get annihilated, 37-14. The following Tuesday we're looking at the films when Allie came up with the most fantastic explanation of what happened.

"All right, you guys," he said. "We got beat, and you know why we got beat? You see that? Look at their bench. They're all sitting down. Look at ours. We're all standing up. That's why we got beat. There's no organization on our bench. Nobody knows what's going on. Look at them. Everybody's in the right spot."
He was dead serious. We lost the game because we stood up on the sideline. He also told us, "Incidentally, Wellington Mara (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Wellington_Mara/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) says he's never been so hurt in all his life." It made tears come to your eyes. And this was the team that was saying it was just another game.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089263/8/index.htm
Don't kid yourself. The Giants and their fans were as fixated on the Jets, as the Jets and their fans were on the Giants.

It's playing out again. When the Giants failed in the recent past, they just tried to fix it in the off season. No embarrassing pre-season bragging to answer for. No covering up SB murals or complaining about the practice facilities. To me, unless someone can give me a logical football reason, acquiring Tim Tebow was all about branding, and nothing else.


The Jets have the brand over the Giants. They'll get the back pages throughout the off season; and while they criticize them, the press loves it. Good material.

Again with Showalter, he didn't change the brand of the Orioles. He's not cool; he's a grumpy old man. what he changed was the culture of losing. He removed a picure from the clubhouse of an Oriole triple play, because they lost the game. Then he made his players accountable for their jobs.

Given your comments regarding the back pages and the nature of the Tebow acquisition it is apparant that , you and I have different understanding of what branding is.

To me a brand is an identity - it is qualities you associate to your franchise. Rolex's brand is luxury. Porche might be high performance. The Giants brand has traditionally been built around toughness - smashmouth football and hard hitting defense. It has nothing to do with cheap publicity and back page.

If the Tebow decisons was about branding, what message or identity were the Jets trying to re-enforce when the acquired him? The Tebow decision was a cheap public relations tactic. No more, no less.


The brand the Jets now have is ineptitude. The culture they have is losing.

... and has been for the post-merger history of the franchise. Hence my pain. But for a brief point i time, while they were going to consecutive conference finals, they effected a change in brand and culture from ineptitude and losing, to self-assurance and toughness.

ZippyTheChimp
January 16th, 2013, 01:24 PM
My grandfather was an avid Dodgers fan. There was no doubt in his mind as to which team owned New York thru 1957.The Dodgers had nothing comparable to how DiMaggio followed by Mantle ruled New York.


For every Joe Pisarcik story you have, I have many more Richard Todd to AJ Dewey stories. Or Mark Gastineau fanthom late hits on Bernie Kosar stories. Or Doug Brien missing playoff FG's (2, both to win) inside 43 yd stories. And don't get me started on Rich Kotite. Or Charlie Winner. Or John Riggins. Or Heidi.Ignores my point. Other teams, including the Giants, have had long bad stretches, some for their entire existence. Only the Jets fanbase seem to have this fatalistic view of themselves. Self inflicted. Trying to fix that in the manner promoted by Johnson and Ryan won't work, because it ignore the real problems.


Steve Write was a starting OT for the Giants in the 1970's. I read his book many years ago and remember reading about how the Giants were completely fixated on beating the Jets in a 1970 exhibition game, and how the Giant organization was generally fixated on the Jets. I found this excerpt at si.com

Don't kid yourself. The Giants and their fans were as fixated on the Jets, as the Jets and their fans were on the Giants.Oh boy, this is exactly what I mean. The Giants were not a good team when they were fixated on the Jets. They became good when they hired a competent GM who hired a competent head coach.


Given your comments regarding the back pages and the nature of the Tebow acquisition it is apparant that , you and I have different understanding of what branding is.

To me a brand is an identity - it is qualities you associate to your franchise. Rolex's brand is luxury. Porche might be high performance. The Giants brand has traditionally been built around toughness - smashmouth football and hard hitting defense. It has nothing to do with cheap publicity and back page.

If the Tebow decisons was about branding, what message or identity were the Jets trying to re-enforce when the acquired him? The Tebow decision was a cheap public relations tactic. No more, no less.If you say the branding is "self assurance," than that to me is equated with not being ignored, not being second-class citizens.

What Johnson has done - the hiring of Favre, hiring of a flamboyant coach, allowing him to shoot off his mouth, hiring Tebow - points to the above. Amazing to me that you dismiss the Tebow fiasco as "no more, no less."

Constantly stating how great you are seems more like insecurity than self-assurance.


But for a brief point i time, while they were going to consecutive conference finals, they effected a change in brand and culture from ineptitude and losing, to self-assurance and toughness.Arizona went to the Super Bowl; Detroit went to the playoffs. Didn't change anything. Are the Jets better situated than they were four years ago; I don't think so. If two trips to the postseason has satisfied the fanbase, they don't seem to show it right now. The focal point of those appearances was Sanchez, especially looking forward. That's shattered.

And toughness has become such a hackneyed term. If you don't have toughness in the NFL, you won't survive; you'll be at the bottom of the heap, year after year. The Jets have had success before 2009. They had to be tough.

eddhead
January 16th, 2013, 03:04 PM
The Dodgers had nothing comparable to how DiMaggio followed by Mantle ruled New York.\

Are we discussing which TEAM owned the city, or who had the superstar players?

The appeal of the Dodgers was based blue collar affiliation. Corporate types were drawn to the Yankees and to a lesser extent the baseball Giants. The Dodgers were the local neighborhood team; lunch pale types - especially to people who lived in Brooklyn and Queens. To many of these fans the players were not idols, they were neighbors. They lived down the street, they saw them on subways and buses, neighbors made them sandwiches.

They carried a different "brand" altogether, and their fans would tell you they owned the town, especially Brooklyn and Queens. Dodger fans didn't care about the regal DiMaggio and his protege, the Crowned Prince Mantle. Their affections were directed to the "Duke" and "Pee Wee" and "Campy" and "Skoonj", and "Preacher".

I would argue that the Yankee players did not share that type of personal relationship with their fans. And that personal relationship which defined the teams "brand" is how the Dodgers came to own the city

If you have not read Boys of Summer you might consider doing so. I think you would like it.


Ignores my point. Other teams, including the Giants, have had long bad stretches, some for their entire existence. Only the Jets fanbase seem to have this fatalistic view of themselves. Self inflicted. Trying to fix that in the manner promoted by Johnson and Ryan won't work, because it ignore the real problems.

It is exactly the point. Jets fans feel like the franchise is cursed. As just one example, the Jets teams of the early 80's were probably good enough to get to the superbowl at least once. Certainly in 1982 they were a better than the Dolphin team they lost to in the mud bowl in Miami when Richard Todd inexplicably confused AJ Duhe with a Jets receiver 3 times, and when Shula flooded the field to negate the Jets speed advantage. That was an AFC finals game; winner goes to the Superbowl. Even when the the team is good, they always seem to find someway to step on their own tongues and mess it up, or have it messed up. How bad was that? Walt Michaels had a bad enough breakdown to have to actually have to resign, after the season, never to be heard from again, despite leading team to a conference championship game.

This stuff and stuff like it seems to happen to the Jets more frequently than it does to other teams. And understand, it is a combination of events, a history if dysfucntion. Shea and being second class tenants, having to play in a place called "Giants Stadium" and the indignity and loss of indentity that goes along with that, managerial ineptitude, incompetant coaches, lousy drafting, failing at key moments.

And while the Giants have had periods of ineptitude, it has not defined their franchise because they have had longer periods of great success. The Jets do not have that legacy to fall back on.

One superbowl in 44 years. One division title since the merger. Same old Jets


Oh boy, this is exactly what I mean. The Giants were not a good team when they were fixated on the Jets. They became good when they hired a competent GM who hired a competent head coach.


Were the Giants a good team on 1970? Were they fixated on the Jets than?


If you say the branding is "self assurance," than that to me is equated with not being ignored, not being second-class citizens.

Branding is about identity. It is your public face. The Jets of 2009/10 promoted an image - a brand - of self-assurance; We are not the 'Same Old Jets'. They have definately taken a step back since than


What Johnson has done - the hiring of Favre, hiring of a flamboyant coach, allowing him to shoot off his mouth, hiring Tebow - points to the above. Amazing to me that you dismiss the Tebow fiasco as "no more, no less."

You are taking my Tebow comments out of context to mis-represent my perspective My point about Tebow is that it was a hair-brained, public relations stunt, and inexcusable. You can discern my thoughts on Tebow from many comments I have made about it on this thread. My comment of "no more, no less" was made in relation to your association of this acquisition as a branding tactic.

Constantly stating how great you are seems more like insecurity than self-assurance.


Arizona went to the Super Bowl; Detroit went to the playoffs. Didn't change anything. Are the Jets better situated than they were four years ago; I don't think so. If two trips to the postseason has satisfied the fanbase, they don't seem to show it right now. The focal point of those appearances was Sanchez, especially looking forward. That's shattered.

The original question was wheather or not the Jets are a well-coached team. I have already conceded that they have done a poor job in evaluating talent and in contract management. While Ryan bears some responsibility for the talent evaluation piece, the cap and contract issues which include extending Sanchez, are on Tannenbaum. And one could argue that those are the principle reasons the Jets franchise is in worse shape today than it was 4 years ago. They are locked into their current roster, and they do not have the cap space to acquire new talant. And that is also why no GM is coming within miles of this place.


And toughness has become such a hackneyed term. If you don't have toughness in the NFL, you won't survive; you'll be at the bottom of the heap, year after year. The Jets have had success before 2009. They had to be tough.

It is realtive, all football players are tough by layman standards. But in football terms, I would not suggest that the 49ers of the Bill Walsh era were known for their toughness. They had some tough players, but I don't think they were known as a tough team. When you think about them, you think West Coast offense, Montana, Rice and Taylor, finese running.

Contrast that with the 2008 Giants who had 3 one-thousand yard runners who all of whom ran hard between the tackles, and one of whom was a 260 lb tailback. Plus they had a tremedous smash-mouth offense line, and a stout hard-hitting defense.

That is what I mean by a tough "brand" or identity.

I like Eli a lot, but when I think of that team, those are the parts that come to mind.

Same with the superbowl winning Ravens team

Again, in relative terms, I would not suggest that John Elway's Bronocos were known for their toughness. Hell, I would not even suggest that the more recent Patriot teams were known for their toughness. Or the Manning Colts. Or the Rivers Chargers. Or the Brees Saints. Their "brand" is built around finese, smarts, and precession passing.

The Ravens, Steelers, Giants, Bears, and current 49ers are examples of teams that have 'toughness' identities

ZippyTheChimp
January 16th, 2013, 08:59 PM
Are we discussing which TEAM owned the city, or who had the superstar players?It's part of the same thing.


and their fans would tell you they owned the town,What would you expect fans of any team to say?

I've read Boys of Summer and thought it was like drinking molasses. You should read Summer of '49.

While the Dodgers were winning their only WS, rumors were already circulating that they were going to move. Much of Dodger fever was centered in Brooklyn; a lot of it fueled by resentment that the City of Brooklyn ceased to exist only a half century earlier. Leave Brooklyn and it was the Yankees. I grew up with this stuff, just as few miles from Ebbett's Field

The Yankees had a constant stream of iconic players stretching back decades.

"Crowned Prince Mantle?" You really don't know what you're talking about here. The fans were very tough on him until the mid 50s.


It is exactly the point. Jets fans feel like the franchise is cursed.Jets fans feel. Jets fans feel. Waaaaaaa!


As just one example, the Jets teams of the early 80's were probably good enough to get to the superbowl at least once.Jeez, the NFL is full of heartbreaking irony like this. The Buffalo Bills were one of the best teams in the NFL, with a HOF QB, for four straight years. Super Bowl wins 0-4. And don't say that at least they went. Losing the SB game is regarded as one of the most deflating events in sports.


Were the Giants a good team on 1970? Were they fixated on the Jets than?Let me make this clear. The Giants were not a good team from 1964 to 1980. They had two above .500 seasons, but at no time in that entire span were they good. An overall record of 84-243, .345. No playoff games. Nothing. And this followed a period when I was too young to appreciate it - 6 out of 8 years in the NFL championship game. When the plane flew over the Meadowlands, the banner didn't say "We get no respect." It was "15 years of lousy football - we've had enough." We just wanted a winning team.

Worrying about their brand and fixating on the Jets is what they Giants should not have been doing. It didn't help them then, or in 1976, when they acquired Larry Czonka on the downside of his career.


Branding is about identity. It is your public face. The Jets of 2009/10 promoted an image - a brand - of self-assurance; We are not the 'Same Old Jets'.Well if that's what it's all about then they are The Same Old Jets. Image making without any substance crumbles quickly.


They have definately taken a step back since thanI think their prospects looking forward are worse now than in 2009, so they've gone all the way back. Ryan said it himself - he's starting over.


You are taking my Tebow comments out of context to mis-represent my perspective My point about Tebow is that it was a hair-brained, public relations stunt, and inexcusable.Calling it a stunt is even worse than what most people think it was, considering the major distraction it caused.


My comment of "no more, no less" was made in relation to your association of this acquisition as a branding tactic.Despite how much the Jets have devalued Tebow, he was a huge star just a year ago. His fanbase was huge. He beat the Steelers in the playoffs. He was big news throughout the off-season. Remember the tape that was made of the 60+ times ESPN mentioned "Tebow" in one segment?

No one in football could figure out a football reason that the Jets acquired Tebow. The word going around was that it helped sell PSLs. Image. Branding. Isn't public-relations part of that?


The original question was wheather or not the Jets are a well-coached team.In my opinion, it isn't, but I said that Ryan would probably keep his job and get a chance to fix it. Fix it doesn't mean he's "the right coach for the Jets," as Johnson stated, or that he gets to evaluate his future boss. Such a situation only weakens the GM. If there's a culture problem on the Jets, it's in the locker room. That's what Ryan has to fix. To do that, he may have to become more disciplinarian, and less the players' pal. If he can't, then he's best suited to where he had success, as a coordinator.


While Ryan bears some responsibility for the talent evaluation piece, the cap and contract issues which include extending Sanchez, are on Tannenbaum.How do you know that? If Ryan, as he stated, had so much input with Tannenbaum, why not with Sanchez' contract?


And that is also why no GM is coming within miles of this place.Not that the GM won't have full control even before he's hired, that his subordinate will help decide if he gets the job? That rules out any GM with good credentials. You'll get people looking to build a resume, and those looking for the paycheck.


But in football terms, I would not suggest that the 49ers of the Bill Walsh era were known for their toughness. They had some tough players, but I don't think they were known as a tough team. When you think about them, you think West Coast offense, Montana, Rice and Taylor, finese running.The 49ers were so good from top to bottom that I guess you have to come up with something negative. They did everything but act tough.


Contrast that with the 2008 Giants who had 3 one-thousand yard runners who all of whom ran hard between the tackles, and one of whom was a 260 lb tailback. Plus they had a tremedous smash-mouth offense line, and a stout hard-hitting defense.

That is what I mean by a tough "brand" or identity.Oh, so tough means the sort of plays you run? I won't even go further with that.


I like Eli a lot, but when I think of that team, those are the parts that come to mind.In a long interview, Justin Tuck spoke about Eli. He joked that if you see him in the locker room, he looks like he's never been inside a weight room. He then said, "Eli's not just a quarterback, he's a football player." When a DL says that about the one position player who they generally have the least respect for, I think he means toughness.

What you regard as toughness is just a circumstance of the type of plays you run. Ground and pound doesn't automatically make you a tough team. The Simms Giants and the Montana 49ers had different personas, but I doubt any Giants player would say the 49ers weren't tough.

eddhead
January 17th, 2013, 12:00 PM
It's part of the same thing.

Is it? Than why the comment one day about how the iconic status of Mantle correlates to the popularity of the team, and the comment the next about how he was really not that popular early on in his career?

The point I was trying to make is that the Dodger team popularity was not based on the individual success of a single iconoclastic superstar - but with the publics abiliy to relate to the players as people. The Dodgers were fairly unique in this regard. Thier fans ran into "Duke" and "Pee Wee at the grocery store. They rooted for people they called "skoonj" and "Preacher". They knew these guys as friends, not Gods.


What would you expect fans of any team to say?
I don't think today's Met's fans would say they own the town. Yesterday's Dodger fans would.


I've read Boys of Summer and thought it was like drinking molasses. You should read Summer of '49.

Actually you are correct, I was mistaken While I read both, the book I meant to reference was Roger Kahn's Summer of '49


While the Dodgers were winning their only WS, rumors were already circulating that they were going to move. Much of Dodger fever was centered in Brooklyn; a lot of it fueled by resentment that the City of Brooklyn ceased to exist only a half century earlier. Leave Brooklyn and it was the Yankees. I grew up with this stuff, just as few miles from Ebbett's Field

I would argue they were popular in Queens as well which accounts for how quickly the Mets were able to fill the void in the early '60's. Queens and Brooklyn were the most populous boros at the time.


The Yankees had a constant stream of iconic players stretching back decades.

Not relevent. Read my early comment about the nature of the fans relationship to the Dodger players. It was not based on the individual status of their superstar players, but rather with identificaton of the players as friends and neigbors they could relate to and root for.

But while we are on the subject, Duke Snider, Jackie Robinson, Gil Hodges, Pee-Wee Reece, and Roy Campenella, all qualify as iconic players.

"Crowned Prince Mantle?" You really don't know what you're talking about here. The fans were very tough on him until the mid 50s.
Perhaps a bit less rudeness might be in order?

I was responding to your possage implying that the passage of the baton from DiMaggio to Mantle was a transcendant event that caused fans to genuflect in their presence, and throw roses at their feet. The Yankees of the 40's and 50's were baseball royality, and DiMaggion was King. If Mantle was next in line as you suggest, that made him Crowned prince.


Jets fans feel. Jets fans feel. Waaaaaaa!
not even worth addressing.


Jeez, the NFL is full of heartbreaking irony like this. The Buffalo Bills were one of the best teams in the NFL, with a HOF QB, for four straight years. Super Bowl wins 0-4. And don't say that at least they went. Losing the SB game is regarded as one of the most deflating events in sports.

Good point about the Bills. I would say for that 4 year period, they probably felt more cursed than any team in football, especially after Norwook blew a 43 yd FG that should have won the game.

They did have the Oilers game to fall back on. I will never forget that one.

And if I were Andre Reed, perhaps the most under-rated player of his era, I would probably want to shoot someone.

The difference it that with the Jets it is not 4 years, it is 45 years. The examples I sited yesterday were just examples. There are plenty more where that came from. And this team has been charcerized by mis-management and poor ownership for almost all of that time.


Let me make this clear. The Giants were not a good team from 1964 to 1980. They had two above .500 seasons, but at no time in that entire span were they good. An overall record of 84-243, .345. No playoff games. Nothing. And this followed a period when I was too young to appreciate it - 6 out of 8 years in the NFL championship game. When the plane flew over the Meadowlands, the banner didn't say "We get no respect." It was "15 years of lousy football - we've had enough." We just wanted a winning team.

That is because the Giants DID get respect. They did not have an unfavorable stadium lease. They had somethign called a "Giants Stadium" They never had a Rich Kotite. And with the excpetion of Pisarcik, they did not have the type of events that has characterized the Jets franchisle.

They were not laughing stocks of the league.


Worrying about their brand and fixating on the Jets is what they Giants should not have been doing. It didn't help them then, or in 1976, when they acquired Larry Czonka on the downside of his career.

You keep using the term brand to justify poor acquistions. They are not connected. When the Giants were successful in the 80's they had a brand. It sas tough, smash-mouth football. That was thier identity. It was not tied to a particular player or acquistion. It was just who they were.


Well if that's what it's all about then they are The Same Old Jets. Image making without any substance crumbles quickly.

[quote]I think their prospects looking forward are worse now than in 2009, so they've gone all the way back. Ryan said it himself - he's starting over.

I addressed this in my previous post.


Calling it a stunt is even worse than what most people think it was, considering the major distraction it caused.


You'll get no arguement from me on that. It was asinine. And it was typical Jets. And it was not a Ryan move.
I have already addressed this previously.


Despite how much the Jets have devalued Tebow, he was a huge star just a year ago. His fanbase was huge. He beat the Steelers in the playoffs. He was big news throughout the off-season. Remember the tape that was made of the 60+ times ESPN mentioned "Tebow" in one segment?

He also lost the last three games of the regular season when one win would have secured a playoff birth. Playing agianst a Chief's team who had nothing to gain on the last weekend, when a win would have secured the Broncos a divsion title, he went something like 6/20 for 60 yards.

He is simply not an NFL QB.


No one in football could figure out a football reason that the Jets acquired Tebow. The word going around was that it helped sell PSLs. Image. Branding. Isn't public-relations part of that?

Again, we are not using branding in the same fashion. I have already commented on this.



In my opinion, it isn't, but I said that Ryan would probably keep his job and get a chance to fix it. Fix it doesn't mean he's "the right coach for the Jets," as Johnson stated, or that he gets to evaluate his future boss. Such a situation only weakens the GM. If there's a culture problem on the Jets, it's in the locker room. That's what Ryan has to fix. To do that, he may have to become more disciplinarian, and less the players' pal. If he can't, then he's best suited to where he had success, as a coordinator.

The problem is not in the locker room. The problem is with the talent level They're just not that good. I would go into detail, but again, I have addressed this many times over in previous threads.


How do you know that? If Ryan, as he stated, had so much input with Tannenbaum, why not with Sanchez' contract?


Ryan was not involved in ANY Jets contract negotiations. If he were, Revis would not have sat out parts of 2010.


Not that the GM won't have full control even before he's hired, that his subordinate will help decide if he gets the job? That rules out any GM with good credentials. You'll get people looking to build a resume, and those looking for the paycheck.

Once again, Holmgren signed with the Browns at a time he was in demand and when they already had a HC. The issue with the Jets signnig a well-thought of GM is not Ryan who is expendable after the 2013/14 season (a likely throw away year anyway). The issues are that they are about $40MM over the cap, have an under-performing QB set to earn $8.5MM next year who they can't cut without taking a $17MM cap hit, will likely lose at least 1 of ther 2 high performing safeties because of cap considerations, are slow and old at LB, need a no 2 and 3 WR, and mediocre at best runnng backs. The QB situation alone is catestraphic; unless Sanchez rebounds, his contract extension will cost them two years time for rebuilding. Matt Flynn might be a suitable replacement, but the Jets do not have the cap room to get him.


The 49ers were so good from top to bottom that I guess you have to come up with something negative. They did everything but act tough.

Re-read what I wrote. I said nothing negative about the 49ers. Just that their identity was built around the west coast offense. And what about the other teams I mentioned. Do you have any comments on them?


Oh, so tough means the sort of plays you run? I won't even go further with that.

It doesn't? Don Coryell coached tough Charger teams? The Colts under Manning were a hard hitting team? The Saints? Please.


In a long interview, Justin Tuck spoke about Eli. He joked that if you see him in the locker room, he looks like he's never been inside a weight room. He then said, "Eli's not just a quarterback, he's a football player." When a DL says that about the one position player who they generally have the least respect for, I think he means toughness.

What you regard as toughness is just a circumstance of the type of plays you run. Ground and pound doesn't automatically make you a tough team. The Simms Giants and the Montana 49ers had different personas, but I doubt any Giants player would say the 49ers weren't tough. I never said the 49ers did not have a tough team. I said they were known for precision passing and finese running. Peyton Manning is a tough QB, but the Colts team he played for was not known for their toughness. John Elway was a tough QB but the Broncos were a smaller, finese team. Same with Brees Saints and all the other teams I listed yesterday.

Are you going to try to tell me that the Ravens team that went to the Superbowl did not carry a toughness indentity. Or the Steelers? Or the Giants? Compare that with the Colts.

ZippyTheChimp
January 17th, 2013, 12:47 PM
Is it? Than why the comment one day about how the iconic status of Mantle correlates to the popularity of the team, and the comment the next about how he was really not that popular early on in his career?I didn't say Mickey wasn't popular, but that he wasn't "crowned royalty" as you suggested.


The point I was trying to make is that the Dodger team popularity was not based on the individual success of a single iconoclastic superstar - but with the publics abiliy to relate to the players as people. The Dodgers were fairly unique in this regard. Thier fans ran into "Duke" and "Pee Wee at the grocery store.The Yankee popularity was based on the individual success of one superstar? Sorry Rizzuto. Ford, Berra, Showron, Richardson---you guys just didn't count.

Duke and Pee Wee are really meaningless when the other side had Yogi, Whitey, Scooter. And Mickey was as down to earth as a star can get. If you wanted to see him, pick a nice summer with a day game and go to Central Park. Mickey often walked from his hotel to YS.

I guess Scooter wasn't a typical Italian from Brooklyn, or Whitey not a typical Irishman from Astoria. These guys spent their entire lives in the area. Whitey is still here.

Where are you going with this?


You keep using the term brand to justify poor acquistions. They are not connected. When the Giants were successful in the 80's they had a brand. It sas tough, smash-mouth football. That was thier identity. It was not tied to a particular player or acquistion. It was just who they were.In the case of Czonka I mentioned, it was certainly brand, trying to borrow the status of the Dolphins. As a football acquisition, it was poor, and the Super Bowl status of Czonka did nothing for the Giants except highlight their stupidity.

If the Giants had a brand in the 80s, it came AFTER they got a good GM, and AFTER he hired a good coach, and AFTER he acquired good players. The winning led to the brand, not the other way around.

I'll close this by referring to "toughness."

The Jets don't have it. It's not their brand or image.

They quit this year. Not tough.

They left the coach who was nice to them out on a limb, when his job was in jeopardy. Could have at least tried to win the last game. Not tough.

They complained openly about teammates. Not tough.

When the press reported their complaints, they complained about the press. Not tough.

If the team had an image problem in 2008, a lot of it was Favre - his crying retirements, his junk on cell photos. Now the whole organization looks silly.

ZippyTheChimp
January 17th, 2013, 01:29 PM
Article written last November


The Jets have had only three losing seasons since 1997, when Bill Parcells took the reins

Few would argue that 15 years is not a significant sample size. How impressive is the Jets’ total of 3 out of a possible 15? Only New England (1) and Green Bay (2) have had fewer losing seasons during this stretch.


The Jets have had seven postseason appearances since 1997

Once again, the Jets’ total puts them among the upper crust of N.F.L. teams. In the A.F.C., only four teams have qualified for the playoffs more times than the Jets during this stretch, led by New England and Indianapolis, with 11 times each. Green Bay leads N.F.C. teams with 10 appearances.


The Jets have played in three conference championship games since 1997

This number stands out when you consider that six A.F.C. teams have failed to reach one title game over this period. The Patriots and the Steelers lead the N.F.L. with six each and are the only A.F.C. teams with more appearances than the Jets. Denver, Baltimore and Indianapolis are tied with the Jets’ total of three.


Debunking the ‘Same Old Jets’ Myth (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/debunking-the-same-old-jets-myth/)


Hmm. Maybe it's Jets fans who aren't tough.

eddhead
January 17th, 2013, 02:15 PM
I am not going to keep rehasing the same comments over and over abut the Dodgers relationships with their fans, the Yankees royalty status, wheather or not the Jets were a tough tean in 2009 , 10, 11 and 12, or anything else.

I realize I had to edit my previous remarks as a good many of my comments did not come through. Read them as you wish, or not.

I never said that the Jets did not have some success over the past 15 years, only that they are a dysfunctional franchise that consistently falls all over themselves and seems prone to bad luck.

I have noted that in one breadth you indicate the Jets are not a tough team and in the second, maybe the fans are not tough. Frankly, I think it takes a lot of balls to tell someone who has been a loyas fan of a franchise that continually disappoints over a 45 year period that they are somehow not tough.

Let me ask you again, how tough were the Giants last year? Did they quit on their coach too?

ZippyTheChimp
January 17th, 2013, 07:12 PM
If Jets fans aren't tough, it's because they see the team as the Cubs of football.

Maybe the Jets haven't been as successful as you would like, but they aren't unique, not especially unlucky, not even the worst. Magnified failure is the nature of football. Unlike baseball, basketball, and hockey, the short season and one-loss-and-out playoffs make mistakes and bad luck hard to fix. You don't get another game. Even happens to good teams - Broncos this year, Ravens last year.

I'd rather be the "Same Old Jets" than the "Same Old Lions" or "Same Old Cards." Non-Jets fans don't see it at all. You may as well complete the self-fulfilling prophesy and walk around MetLife in sackcloth, beat each other with tree branches.

You think that Ryan changed the culture, but I don't see any difference at all - not if you take the sum total of four years, as you should. It mirrors what the team has been for most of its existence - some success, not getting over the top, right now a bad team.

But there's nothing star-crossed about it. It happens around the league all the time.



Let me ask you again, how tough were the Giants last year? Did they quit on their coach too?I've already answered that the Giants may have quit on their coach. As for toughness, we have different definitions. You think it's style of play. So I guess that would make Ndamukong Suh a tough player. But I don't think he's tough at all, and a big reason the Lions finished where they did. But Suh doesn't need to play better next year, he needs to grow up.

So does Ryan and several of his players.

While Eli had a couple of brutal games late in the season and deserved criticism, no one on the team pulled a Santonio Holmes on him. Remember what LT said a year ago - he never saw a QB-WR feud as bad as in the Jets locker room. Where was the coach?

And while I'm no fan of Tebow, it was as classless for teammates to say that he stunk. If anyone on the Jets is tough, it's Tebow.

No locker room problems, just personnel? Good luck.

eddhead
January 18th, 2013, 09:41 AM
I just lost my thread, and now I have to do this again. I hate when that happens.


If Jets fans aren't tough, it's because they see the team as the Cubs of football.

I don't think the Jets fans see themselves as 'Cubs of football' and I would not describe Cubs fans as not being tough.


Maybe the Jets haven't been as successful as you would like, but they aren't unique, not especially unlucky, not even the worst. Magnified failure is the nature of football. Unlike baseball, basketball, and hockey, the short season and one-loss-and-out playoffs make mistakes and bad luck hard to fix. You don't get another game. Even happens to good teams - Broncos this year, Ravens last year.

I have already addressed this. It happens to all teams, but it seems to be a hobby for the Jets.


I'd rather be the "Same Old Jets" than the "Same Old Lions" or "Same Old Cards." Non-Jets fans don't see it at all. You may as well complete the self-fulfilling prophesy and walk around MetLife in sackcloth, beat each other with tree branches.

So, that that is our solace, we haven't won anything in 45 years, but at least we're not the Lions or the Cards.

I guess we have pretty low standards around here.


You think that Ryan changed the culture, but I don't see any difference at all - not if you take the sum total of four years, as you should. It mirrors what the team has been for most of its existence - some success, not getting over the top, right now a bad team.

Over his first two years, the culture of the team did change. They played with confidence and attitude. And I am sorry, but he is right, no one, not even the best teams in the league, wanted to play the Jets over that period. Don't believe me? Ask the Pats and the Colts.


I've already answered that the Giants may have quit on their coach. As for toughness, we have different definitions. You think it's style of play. So I guess that would make Ndamukong Suh a tough player. But I don't think he's tough at all, and a big reason the Lions finished where they did. But Suh doesn't need to play better next year, he needs to grow up.

I went out of my way to suggest that I was not describing individual players but the make-up of the team.

Did you ever hear the term 'smash-mouth' football? What does it connote to you. The Brees Saints, and the Manning Colts were excellent football teams, but they did not play that type of game. The Ravens on the other hand did. That is what I mean.

It may not always be the best style of play, but it is an identity and it suited the Jets.


While Eli had a couple of brutal games late in the season and deserved criticism, no one on the team pulled a Santonio Holmes on him. Remember what LT said a year ago - he never saw a QB-WR feud as bad as in the Jets locker room. Where was the coach?


Eli also has a couple of Superbowls under his belt.

Still, I am agree with you. Ryan's loss of the locker room was as inexplicable as Coughlin's inability to control Tike or Strahan while they were mouthing off about the HC and the QB. It doesn't mean he was a bad coach though.

And by the way, I think it is telling that as critical as he is toward the Jets, LT has gone out of his way to suggest that Ryan is part of the soluton, not part of the problem with this team.

And while I'm no fan of Tebow, it was as classless for teammates to say that he stunk. If anyone on the Jets is tough, it's Tebow.

I agree. It was at least as bad as Tiki telling the press that Eli is not a leader.

ZippyTheChimp
January 18th, 2013, 10:10 AM
And Tiki paid for that; Coughlin still won't talk to him.

The problems start with the owner. Johnson is a lot like Wilpon - wants to be a sportsman owner. Unlike Wilpon, he was born into a family fortune, and may not know too much about running a business. As for owning a football team, he's not like Halas, Mara, and Rooney, who grew up in the game.

I won't say another word:
It's more toward grabbing headlines, and everything starts at the top. And you can go back to when the seat licenses were initiated, how we started conducting things. I don't think winning has been put at the top of the board. Winning headlines has replaced that. -Joe Namath

eddhead
January 18th, 2013, 12:17 PM
Tiki retired of his own accord, no one forced him out. And I am sure his heart is broken over Couhlin not talking to him. And Tiki didn't do it just once. He also critisized Coughlin several times in 2005.

I agree with Namath. Woody is a putz. But I think Ryan wants to win pretty badly.

ZippyTheChimp
January 18th, 2013, 01:15 PM
And I am sure his heart is broken over Couhlin not talking to him.Well, Barber is the one that requested the meeting.
http://mvn.com/2012/01/16/tiki-barber-says-new-york-giants-head-coach-tom-coughlin-refuses-to-meet-with-him/

And he couldn't feel good about his reception at the Meadowlands.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJolc2NPzgQ&playnext=1&list=PL5C90A9421C7BBAD9&feature=results_video


I agree with Namath. Woody is a putz.I don't think Namath thinks highly of Ryan either.

eddhead
January 18th, 2013, 01:31 PM
ON Barber - I am not how that is relevent. He said it several things during the season and was not penalized. He retired of his own accord on 2006. Despite all the BS, the Giants wanted him to stay and so did most of the fans. In fact, many argued he was a HOF candidate at he time. Now that he is gone and the Giants won 2 superbowls without him, he is booed.

But if it helps, I will stipulate that yes, he is a putz too.


And you are right about Namath and his perception of Ryan. The truth is, I am not really sure how I feel about him either. Generally I like him as a coach, and I like his bravado. But he needs to get an OC who really understands the nuances of the game and who knows how to handle QB's. Sanchez definetly suffered from a lack of mentoring and coaching. It is striking to me that Matt Cavanaugh has not been fired.

He only has one year left, if he does not produce he's gone. As I posted previously, I think the odds are against his staying on beyond 2013

ZippyTheChimp
January 20th, 2013, 09:57 AM
The point on which I agree with Namath is that any culture change that the Jets management thought they needed has less to do with winning, and more with selling PSLs. I don't think the Jets had to change anything with respect to the fans because the fanbase has remained intact.

Winning solves a lot of problems.

For comparison, I think the Orioles needed to change their culture because it was affecting the fanbase. I have relatives in Delaware and have been to many Yankee games at Camden Yards. In the mid-90s the owner Angelos (another jerk) complained about the small but noticeable Yankee presence in the stands. Go forward a dozen years and it seemed like a third of the crowd was wearing blue. It was brought up during a telecast that the Orioles were also feeling pressure from the Nats, and Angelos stopped complaining about Yankee fans at the games.

Showalter came in and said he was going to change the attitude of the organization. He had the poster of a triple-play taken down because they lost the game.

If Johnson is trying to sell PSLs, it's not unique to the Jets.

1. An improved TV experience.
2. Poor economy.

In the above environment, raising ticket prices has had the logical results.

But it's not fan motivation. The Giants have had the same problem; so have the Yankees.

eddhead
January 20th, 2013, 11:05 AM
I can't argue with your argument about management being more concerned with PSL's than with winning. That is what happens when you sell the franchise out to corporate types. And although the Giants and the Yankees may have employed different tactics, the difference is that for all their issues, the Mara's and the Steinbrenner's are primary 'sporting type' rich guys trying to make a profit. Johnson, is a business type, trying to field a sporting team. Their priorities are different and it shows.

I think this is one reason why the fans are so disgusted with the team. We get the sense ownership would rather make a few bucks than field a winning team.

But for all his faults and there are many, I don't feel that way about Ryan. I think he genuinely wants to win, and it pains him when he doesn't.

ZippyTheChimp
January 21st, 2013, 02:45 PM
Jets owner Woody Johnson claims Tim Tebow was “forced” on him

Former Broncos GM Ted Sundquist, who interviewed for the Jets GM job nine days ago, said owner Woody Johnson told him the Tebow trade wasn’t his idea. Johnson said the trade was “forced” on him and team president Neil Glat.

Johnson and Glat are added to a growing list of Jets sources who never wanted Tebow. Rex Ryan also washed his hands of it, saying that he would have played Tebow if he thought the backup QB could help the team win.

Johnson seems to have cast blame for the Tebow drama on former GM Mike Tannenbaum, who got the ax after the Jets’ disappointing season.

The Jets are expected to part ways with Tebow next month.

Copyright © 2013 Time Inc. A Time Warner Company

Does anyone believe this?

Johnson before the 2012 season: "You can't have too much Tebow." "He'll be here the next three years."

eddhead
January 21st, 2013, 03:35 PM
No, no one believes it.

He just threw Tannenbaum under the bus. Tannenbaum can't deny it because 1. it will make him look bad to have had a player forced on him, and 2. He can't afford to cross Johnson. NFL owners don't like it when an employee gets into a public squable with their ex-employers, so Tanne is stuck with this.

Johnson is despicable.

eddhead
March 16th, 2013, 07:13 PM
The Jets are done in 2013/14 and the season hasn't even started yet. They are $14MM under the cap and are even releasing the few good players they have. This is pathetic.

Oh, that is right, they signed David Gerard.

ZippyTheChimp
April 8th, 2013, 01:35 PM
This latest dispute between the Jets and Revis over voluntary workouts, which is a bit silly, shows that the two parties do not like each other.

That makes it perplexing that there is no movement in talks with Tampa Bay.

GordonGecko
April 10th, 2013, 04:35 PM
More like Revis acting out because the Jets "don't love him" since they shopped him around

eddhead
April 10th, 2013, 04:43 PM
I have to say I agree. He is a tremendous player, but his perspecive on his relationship with the Jets is warped. When he is negotiating a contract, he takes every last penny. In this scenerio, the business of footbal superceds the personal associaton and relationship he has with the team and its management. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But if he is going to take that stance, he can't act personally insulted about the Jets shopping him around. It it is a business for them too.

I love him as a player, but the Jets have a lot of holes and not a lot of cap space. I don't know that they can afford him. I also don't think that Tampa Bay is offering enough for him, but at the end of the day I think the Jets will capitulate to them for a number of reasons - the owner is fed up with him, and they have personnel issues they need to address and cannot with his salary weighing them down. They do not hold the cards.

ZippyTheChimp
April 21st, 2013, 06:37 PM
Sunday, April 21, 2013


Jets trade Darrelle Revis to Bucs

By Adam Schefter and Rich Cimini
ESPN.com

The New York Jets have traded star cornerback Darrelle Revis to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the 13th overall pick in Thursday night's draft and a conditional selection next year.

The Buccaneers announced the deal on Sunday, saying Revis agreed to a new six-year contract.

The deal is worth $96 million, making Revis the highest-paid defensive back in NFL history, but includes no guaranteed money, according to sources close to the Pro Bowl cornerback.

The conditional pick headed to the Jets is a fourth-round selection in 2014, but could become a third-rounder if Revis is on Tampa Bay's roster on the third day of the 2014 league year, sources said.

The Buccaneers will formally introduce Revis during a news conference Monday at noon ET.

The six-year, $96 million deal would make Revis one of the NFL's two highest-paid defensive players along with Mario Williams.

Revis will not be released before this season, meaning he is assured of making this season's base salary, but his contract includes none of the money that the NFL refers to as "guaranteed" money. Tampa Bay would be able to release Revis before any season without incurring any salary-cap charge.

The final obstacle to the deal was completed Sunday, when Revis flew on a private plane from New Jersey to Tampa, Fla., to undergo a physical that included a comprehensive checkup on his knee.

He passed it, making the trade official.

The three sides -- the Jets, the Buccaneers and Revis -- spent the weekend hammering out their respective agreements.

The Jets are now satisfied with the two picks they would receive from the Buccaneers, giving New York the ninth and 13th picks Thursday night.

Revis is happy with the new contract he will receive from the Buccaneers. Plus, with no state income tax in Florida, Revis now will pay less in state tax from the Buccaneers than the $538,200 he would have had he remained with the Jets on his $6 million salary in New Jersey this season.

And Tampa Bay is pleased to acquire the league's top cornerback to upgrade its pass defense and to match up against division rivals such as Drew Brees and Matt Ryan.

As if that wasn't enough drama, there's more ahead. In Week 1, the Buccaneers open against the Jets.

Also, in Week 9, in another scheduling quirk, Revis' Bucs play in Seattle at Richard Sherman's Seahawks. The two cornerbacks have traded verbal barbs and tweets this offseason.

Meanwhile, New York is positioning itself well for 2014, when the Jets are expected to receive four compensatory picks to go along with the Buccaneers' pick, meaning the Jets will have a bounty of selections to try to turn around their roster.

And they will do it with added salary-cap space, too. Revis will count $12 million against the Jets' cap this season but nothing in 2014, when New York will be primed with a great chance to upgrade its talent.

Revis is only six months removed from ACL surgery and was cleared to run without restriction only last Monday.

The Bucs, determined to improve their league-worst pass defense, will have added two impact players to their secondary in safety Dashon Goldson and Revis, widely regarded as the best corner in the league.

Jets officials had made it clear that Revis could be had for the right price, a surprising public stance that irked their best player, according to a source.

The latest developments followed years of contract demands and special requests by Revis and his agents.

The most recent dispute occurred when Revis, who had been rehabbing in Arizona, asked to be excused from the first two weeks of the offseason program. The Jets refused.

Revis, with a $1 million workout bonus tied to his participation in the voluntary workouts, showed up to satisfy the clause.

Revis was seeking about $16 million a year in a long-term deal, and Jets owner Woody Johnson told confidantes as far back as January he had no intention of doling out that much for a non-quarterback, sources said.

Johnson denied that, insisting it was "patently untrue" that he had no desire to extend Revis' contract.

Revis was entering the final year of his contract and was due to make $6 million -- $3 million in bonuses and $3 million in base salary. He triggered a $1 million roster bonus March 16, but the Bucs would assume that payment as well as a $1 million workout bonus and $1 million reporting bonus.

The trade speculation started in late January, when Johnson, in private discussions, expressed little confidence in the team's ability to re-sign Revis, according to sources. One league source said Johnson was determined to deal Revis.

"I gathered from Woody that, in his mind, [Revis] was gone," the source said.

Revis said he was "speechless" upon hearing the trade rumors, later indicating he felt insulted that general manager John Idzik didn't contact him directly. Idzik reached out, but at no point, publicly or privately, did he say Revis wouldn't be traded.

For two months, the Jets mixed damage control with posturing, claiming their only goal was make sure Revis returned healthy from his injury. Meanwhile, they continued to shop him.

The Bucs made sense from the outset. They had a glaring need at cornerback, they began free agency with more than $30 million in cap room and their special teams coach, Dave Wannstedt, was Revis' head coach at Pittsburgh.

This would be another splashy addition for the Bucs, who have demonstrated over the last 12 months a willingness to spend big money. They signed wide receiver Vincent Jackson and guard Carl Nicks last year, but finished a disappointing 7-9.

The Revis trade conjured up memories of another blockbuster between the two teams, in 2000, when the Jets traded disgruntled wide receiver Keyshawn Johnson for two first-round draft picks.

Revis' six-year run with the Jets was marked by brilliant play and contract strife.

As a rookie, he missed part of the preseason because of a contract dispute. In 2010, he staged a 36-day holdout that turned ugly, with both sides exchanging jabs in the media. It became a national story as the main plot that summer in the HBO reality show "Hard Knocks," which covered the Jets' training camp.

The two sides settled the dispute with what the Revis camp termed a "Band-Aid" contract. He had three years remaining on his first contract, and that was replaced with a four-year, $46 million deal that included $32 million in guarantees.

At the time, then-GM Mike Tannenbaum called it an "intermediate step" toward a long-term deal that would enable Revis to finish his career with the Jets. Two years into the deal, the Revis camp started dropping hints that he was mulling another holdout.

That never happened, but the two sides continued on a collision course.

Unable to use the franchise tag, per a clause in Revis' contract, the Jets couldn't let him play out his contract because he would've become an unrestricted free agent. So they had to make a decision: Trade him or re-sign him.

©2013 ESPN Internet Ventures.

ZippyTheChimp
April 21st, 2013, 06:41 PM
I don't understand it.

The Jets didn't get much for such a high quality player. If none of the contract is guaranteed, then the Bucs are only committed to one year at $16 million, with yearly options. The Jets could have done that.

eddhead
April 22nd, 2013, 09:50 AM
I never thought Jets were going to get fair market value for Revis for the reasons I sighted above in post 188; He is a tremendous player, but the team has too many holes and not enough salary cap to fill them. This buys them a bit of flexibility. They lose one great player, but can sign 2-3 serviceable players with the extra cap room.

As I indicated above, they just didn't have the cards.

But I am shocked Tampa was able to sign him without guaranteed comp. This is the very thing he pushed hardest for while negotiating with the Jets.

Revis is a great player but at the end of the day, he was too focused on being the highest paid corner in the league, and the Jets were not able to accomodate him. The thing that bothers me about him, is, he is all business when negotiating a contract, but expects the Jets to treat him like family when considering trading him. It can't go both ways.

IrishInNYC
April 24th, 2013, 08:48 AM
I'm not a Jets fan, in fact it must be near impossible for anyone to be one right now and agree the move makes no sense looking in from outside, but appears clear that once Woody was not going to pay Revis, this outcome was inevitable.

This rebuilding process is still in motion and I believe the demise of Ryan and Sanchez will complete it. There may be holes all over the team but the biggest one remaining is always going to be at QB. I think they have 5 QBs in the camp at the moment, and yet, none.

There is much talk about the weak QB draft class of 2013 but there is no doubt a sleeper is in there somewhere, a Russel Wilson type who can change a franchise. The Jets found one with Revis himself at #14 in 2007, they need to do it again at #13 this year.

eddhead
April 24th, 2013, 09:29 AM
I am a Jets fan. I hated to see him go, he is truly one of the best 2 or 3 defensive players in the game. But under the cirucumstances, I just don't see where the Jets had a choice. Without repeating what I have posted twice previsouly now, circumstances, cap room, and personnel gaps in their roster all but dictated this move.

They didn't get what he was worth, but they were under the gun and did what they could.

I hate Jets management, and Woody in particular, but understand this move.

The QB situaton is a mess. Despite everything, it is likely Sanchez will get one more shot at it this year. Maybe with a proven Offensive coordinator and QB coach he'll do better. I really have no reason to think he will, but hope springs eternal...

I do like Ryan however and all of his bluster. I hope he makes it.

ZippyTheChimp
April 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
The pressure is on the new GM, who will be making his first ever personnel moves starting tomorrow.

Whatever they got for Revis, they now have two first-round picks. How this trade will be remembered down the road is going to depend on what he does with them.

ZippyTheChimp
April 27th, 2013, 09:12 AM
Mark Sanchez is history.

His salary counts $12.85 million toward the salary cap. If the Jets cut him by June 1, the cap hits are $12.35 million and $4.8 million. In any case, they will owe him $8.25 million, whether he plays or not.

I can't see that the Jets exactly love Geno Smith, since they waited for their third pick. Spread offense next year?

There are rumors that the Jets might not release Tim Tebow. That's insane.

They sure have a herd of QBs now - Sanchez, Tebow, David Garrard, Greg McElroy, Matt Simms, and Smith.

eddhead
April 27th, 2013, 12:21 PM
I am not sure their drafting Geno Smith makes Sanchez history. I know that is what the press is saying, but I am not sure it is true.

I might be wrong, but I see Smith as being too much of a project. Plus, if they release Sanchez they take the cap hit anyway (as you indicated).

Even if they keep Smith on the roster, none of the alternatives are appealing enough to justify paying him and taking the cap hit to release him.

Smith may stay on - either as the third QB, or on the practice squad, but I don't know if both Gerrard and Sanchez will be on the opening day roster.

Than again, who knows? It's the Jets.

IrishInNYC
April 29th, 2013, 09:07 AM
Tebow was released (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04/29/reports-jets-release-backup-qb-tim-tebow/) this morning apparently.

eddhead
April 29th, 2013, 09:45 AM
I may have been wrong about Smith; a possible misconception based on the fact he ran a spread offense in collage and the Jets seem comitted to the West Coast. Still indication are he is poised, bright, mobile, and possesses an outstanding arm along with great mechanics. The only knock on him seems to be his work effort. But the Jets seem to think they can work with him on that.

Who knows? Maybe the Jets found a quarterback.

Tebow is no loss. He seems like a great kid and a terrific athlete, but he is not an NFL quarterback

ZippyTheChimp
April 29th, 2013, 09:50 AM
I am not sure their drafting Geno Smith makes Sanchez history. I know that is what the press is saying, but I am not sure it is true.

I might be wrong, but I see Smith as being too much of a project. Plus, if they release Sanchez they take the cap hit anyway (as you indicated).Well, that's what I mean. If the money situation is bad with either choice, it should be out of the equation.

If Sanchez is going to get one more shot this season, they should have drafted offensive support.

If Geno Smith is the future, then it's Garrard-Smith-McElroy. I don't see how Sanchez fits in. If it's a competition and Sanchez loses, what do you do with him? A big hit if you cut him after June 1. If Sanchez wins the job, you have a young QB as a starter, and a high draft pick as his backup.

eddhead
April 29th, 2013, 09:57 AM
My point is they take the hit weather he is on the roster or not, so they may as well let him compete. But at the end of the day, you could be right for the reasons you indicate. Although I don't really consider 2nd round to be that high to draft a QB. Still, even if Sanchez does have it in him (a big if) , I can't see him succeeding in NY after all he has been thru. A change in scenery might be in order.

BTW I was wrong on Smith being turnover prone. He had only 32 turnovers in 3 years as a starter. Not bad.

IrishInNYC
April 29th, 2013, 12:30 PM
My point is they take the hit weather he is on the roster or not, so they may as well let him compete. But at the end of the day, you could be right for the reasons you indicate. Although I don't really consider 2nd round to be that high to draft a QB. Still, even if Sanchez does have it in him (a big if) , I can't see him succeeding in NY after all he has been thru. A change in scenery might be in order.

BTW I was wrong on Smith being turnover prone. He had only 32 turnovers in 3 years as a starter. Not bad.

Having Sanchez around to 'compete' will bring too much of the same mayhem that surrounded and suffocated the team last year with the Tebow/Sanchez, will they won't they circus.

Sanchez is gone June 1, it has to be. It's bad for the team to keep him. As a Jets fan you must already feel better that Tebow is gone. Dropping baggage helps unite a team and that's all Sanchez has become.

eddhead
April 29th, 2013, 01:55 PM
I am happy to see Tebow gone. I have mixed emotions about Sanchez. He had is moments - perfoming well in both playoff runs for instance, but for the most part his time here has been a disaster, especially last year which was a make or break year from him. Clealy, he broke.

Still that guy red shirted for 2 years at USC and really didn't play until his senior year. Than he jumps to a team that has no clue about how to staff and design an offense. So he is very green out of school and gets to work with poor OC's and QB coaches. Maybe he was inadvertantly set up to fail.

But I do think at this point he may be better off on a different team with a clean start.

ZippyTheChimp
May 9th, 2013, 11:01 AM
Woody Johnson should stop contradicting himself and just shut up.



Woody Johnson: N.Y. Jets have 'buzz' around them

The New York Jets are flirting with a full-on rebuild, but their owner is seeing stars.

Woody Johnson emerged from the wilderness Tuesday to address reporters at the NFL Career Development Symposium in Philadelphia, urging Jets fans to "be patient and have trust we're doing the best thing for your team."

Johnson insisted that a "buzz" surrounds his Jets, Manish Mehta of the New York Daily News reported Tuesday. Woody then told the room, on the heels of trading away cornerback Darrelle Revis, "The draft is going to work."

When one reporter asked out loud, "Look out, Patriots?," Johnson chuckled and replied, "Absolutely. You're right."

Coming off a stark 6-10 campaign, it's stunning to see any member of the Jets gabbing about the New England Patriots in early May. Where general manager John Idzik seems intent on rebuilding this team piece by piece and letting his (admittedly solid) draft speak for itself, the Jets' owner is allergic to keeping mum.

Johnson would do his team a great service by tempering expectations and allowing the men he's hired to do their jobs. Instead, he is asking fans for more patience while he thrusts the Jets into the news cycle for all the wrong reasons. Again.

Follow Marc Sessler on Twitter @MarcSesslerNFL.


What's this "buzz" thing?

eddhead
May 10th, 2013, 09:56 AM
Woody Johnson is an asshole.

ZippyTheChimp
May 10th, 2013, 11:38 AM
That's harsh. Well, I guess he is.

I'll bet Tebow thought that on the way out the door. Sanchez too, if he goes.

IrishInNYC
May 16th, 2013, 11:32 AM
Oh boy, Garrard looks done, for good (http://tracking.si.com/2013/05/15/david-garrard-no-longer-plans-jets/?sct=uk_t2_a7). Sanchez more likely to stay as a result. Anyone giving odds on Byron Leftwich starting under center in this circus?

eddhead
May 17th, 2013, 05:02 PM
Garrard was not the answer anyway. The best we could have expected from him was not to mess up as badly as Sanchez did.

ZippyTheChimp
May 21st, 2013, 08:14 AM
Woody Johnson is an asshole.Yes, but apparently with superpowers.

Woody Johnson:
We’re trying to win games and do the right thing. Truth, justice and the American way. We live by it, we really do.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2l4bz1FT8U

ZippyTheChimp
May 22nd, 2013, 11:01 AM
Two contract signings by the Jets this Spring:

1. David Garrard - knee problems, retires.

2. Mike Goodson - Passenger in car that had stopped in left lane of I-80 in New Jersey. both Goodson and the driver were drunk, Goodson so drunk that he was taken to a hospital.

Charged with unlawful possession of a handgun, possession of a loaded handgun, possession of hollow-point ammunition, possession of marijuana and possession of drug paraphernalia. If subject to the NJ Graves Act, Goodson, if convicted, could be sentenced to three years.

His lawyer stated that the handgun and ammo does not belong to Goodson, and he will plead not-guilty to the drug and weapons charges

GordonGecko
May 22nd, 2013, 12:52 PM
Well Goodson is lucky he was pinched in Jersey. With a clean record he can get probation or community service, or at worst a few months jail time and out relatively quickly. NYC however, has a zero tolerance gun possession law. There is no leeway possible, you will get at least 2 years jail time, guaranteed

eddhead
May 22nd, 2013, 06:24 PM
Still, what a disaster for a team that hasn't just shot itself in the foot many times but has shot off all of its toes.

ZippyTheChimp
May 22nd, 2013, 07:07 PM
Well Goodson is lucky he was pinched in Jersey.Sitting in the second left lane on an interstate, both of them probably passed out - lucky he isn't dead. Or someone else dead.

mariab
May 30th, 2013, 03:52 PM
I sort of agree with him on this, but I believe Rex Ryan really believes the hype.

Joe Namath calls out the New York Jets for ‘misleading’ their fans (http://gamedayr.com/gamedayr/joe-namath-calls-out-the-new-york-jets-for-misleading-their-fans/)

Ben Cornfield (http://gamedayr.com/author/ben-cornfield/) | May 30, 2013 at 11:34 am | 8 Comments (http://gamedayr.com/gamedayr/joe-namath-calls-out-the-new-york-jets-for-misleading-their-fans/#disqus_thread)
http://gamedayr.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/joe-namath-mark-sanchez-new-york-jets-570x399.jpg (http://gamedayr.com/gamedayr/joe-namath-supports-mark-sanchez-not-geno-smith-draft-selection/attachment/joe-namath-mark-sanchez-new-york-jets/)New York Jets former quarterback Joe Namath (left) believes his old team has misled its fans. (Jerry Lai-USA TODAY Sports)

Most fans have been saying this same exact thing for quite some time. However, most fans do not have the same clout with the New York Jets that Joe Namath enjoys.
As the only quarterback to ever lead the franchise to a Super Bowl victory, when Namath speaks his mind regarding the Jets, people listen. Recently, Broadway Joe has had nothing good to say.
During a Thursday visit with Boomer Esiason and Craig Carton of WFAN, Namath accused the franchise of being “deceptive” and having “misled” fans (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/30/joe-namath-not-on-speaking-terms-with-jets-owner-says-team-misled-fans/) regarding the talent level on the team.
“The team’s declined while we fans are being told how good they are constantly, how this new player’s so good,” Namath said. “They haven’t played up to how they’ve been touted. And so I think they’ve misled the fans more or less. They’ve made some bad decisions on personnel the last couple of years.”

After opening a massive, sparkling new stadium to be shared with the Giants, the G-Men have won a title while the Jets have flailed and missed time and again.
The organization’s decisions to bring in Tim Tebow, to sign Santonio Holmes to an extension, to trade Darrelle Revis, to drafting Sheldon Richardson have all been met with raised eyebrows by Namath and a large portion of the New York fanbase.
Most of those fans would love to tell Johnson how such moves have made them feel. However, Namath admits that his views have frosted the relationship between he and his beloved franchise, and specifically with Johnson.
“I wouldn’t say bad terms, you know?” Namath said. “Uncomfortable. Because I was saying earlier, you don’t like to hear negative things, negative vibes, and Woody I’m sure doesn’t like the criticism. I mean, when we’ve brushed shoulders in the past it hasn’t been the same as it was originally. We don’t talk — ‘Hi, how are ya?’”

Namath will always — always — be known as the brash young star who first predicted a Super Bowl III victory over Baltimore and then went out onto the football field and backed up his words with a title-winning performance.
If the Jets don’t shape up, what will Woody Johnson be remembered for in terms of his NFL legacy?

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/joe_namath_calls_out_the_new_york_jets_for_mislead ing_their_fans/13725032?linksrc=home_rg_head_13725032

ZippyTheChimp
May 30th, 2013, 09:18 PM
I sort of agree with him on this, but I believe Rex Ryan really believes the hype.Maybe Woody Johnson really believes the hype, because player appraisal isn't his job.

But Ryan is a head coach. If he couldn't evaluate personnel, he wouldn't last. I don't think Ryan (so far) is a good coach because he doesn't seem to have full control of the organization.

But the fantasy of how good they are is a Woody creation, and Ryan is just doing what his boss wants.

eddhead
June 1st, 2013, 07:39 AM
I don't think Ryan (so far) is a good coach because he doesn't seem to have full control of the organization.

I am not sure on who on the Jets is in control of what - and that is much of the problem. The organization's managerial effectiveness is nil. They are miss-run, and Johnson has too much influence over day-to-day management issues.

The team is a mess.

IrishInNYC
June 2nd, 2013, 05:02 PM
I don't think talent evaluation is the problem. It is talent realization and utilization that is the problem.

I'm not a Tebow fan at all but, someway, somehow he worked for a handfull of games in Denver. The Jets were unable to make even one PLAY work with the guy.

Ryan sucks and Johnson sucks more. The Jets suck at rising above or even meeting their collective potential.

eddhead
June 3rd, 2013, 10:57 AM
I think talent evaluation is a problem.

Suggesting it isn't is akin to appraising the talent levels of Tebow, Gholston, Sanchez, Holmes, Greene, Howard, Bart Scott (at the end of his career) at higher levels than what their body of work suggests. They did well with Fergueson, Mangold, Revis, and even Keller, and the young DL's are promising but at best that is a mixed bag. And where are the middle level picks?

I couldn't disagree with you more about Tebow. They had no business acquiring him at all. The reasons they could not make one PLAY work for him are 1. He is not an NFL caliber QB, and 2. His presence is disruptive, both on the field where his insertion into games interupts the offensive flow, and off the field where he is just a distraction.

The Jets may have messed up drafting Sanchez, and much of that if not all is on Ryan who by all accounts was a big fan of his. Tannenbaum gets some of that too though, he was the GM and technically had control over personnel decisions.

But the bigger screw-up was extending his contract and tying up 18 MM cap space. Given the body of his work to that point, the extentions was incomprehensible. And that falls squarely on Tannenbaum.

Tanne did some good things and some bad things, but that move alone was enough to get him fired.

IrishInNYC
June 5th, 2013, 08:53 AM
I couldn't disagree with you more about Tebow. They had no business acquiring him at all. The reasons they could not make one PLAY work for him are 1. He is not an NFL caliber QB, and 2. His presence is disruptive, both on the field where his insertion into games interupts the offensive flow, and off the field where he is just a distraction.


I agree with your summary of Tebow. Don't get me wrong...he has no place in the NFL as a QB. Never did and never will.

My only point on him, and it's not a defense of the man, is that Denver got something out of him, in several big games. The Jets failed to get anything, not even a flicker of skill, of inspiration or production.

Along with Tebow's lack of skills as a QB, that failure must lie at the door of Ryan, the coaches and ultimately Johnson.

eddhead
June 5th, 2013, 09:44 AM
I think we're basically on the same page, so I don't want to make a big deal about this, but I am not quite sure Denver got all that much from him.

They hit a hot streak in the middle of the season with him at QB - and he deserves some credit for that, but if I am not mistaken, they dropped their last 4 or 4/5 games when winning even one more would have clinched the Western Division title, and he preformed miserably during that stretch. In the last game against KC with the division on the line he was downright rank. The lost the game but Denver backed into the title anyway when SD got slammed as well.

Even against Pitt in the playoffs, take away that one pass in OT, and he sucked.

People forget, Denver had a terrific running game that year and outstanding defense and special teams. I could easily argue their mid-season resurgance was as much a function of reversing an underperforming trend as it was Tebow taking the reins.

To paraphrase your point, and repeat one I have made several times on this thread, there may very well be a place for this man in the NFL. But it is not at QB.

ZippyTheChimp
June 7th, 2013, 10:16 AM
Kicker Matt Prater had a lot top do with Denver's winning streak in 2011, with three straight walk-off FGs. Especially the Bears game, where I think John Elway realized the problem they were going to have moving forward with Tebow.

Teams were starting to defend Tebow. The Bears had the game won 10-7 at the two minute warning. Denver tried an onside kick that failed, and they were out of timeouts. Chicago RB Marion Barber had a brainfart and went out of bounds, stopping the clock. Denver got the ball back, and Prater hit a 59 yarder to send the game into OT. Chicago was driving when Barber fumbled, and Prater hit a 51 yarder to give the Broncos a 13-10 win.

What's telling is that after the Chicago game, Denver lost the final three - crushed by NE and Buffalo, and a 7-3 loss to KC. They backed into the playoffs.

You have to give Tebow the Pittsburgh playoff win, but they were dominated the following week by a NE team that didn't have a great defense.

------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile at the OTA...


Jets Skip Last Day Of OTAs To Play Paintball Because They Can Totally Afford To Do That

by Zach Berger | 1:53 pm, June 6th, 2013

http://static03.mediaite.com/sportsgrid/uploads/2013/06/BMFRR2vCAAEmlI8.png

Instead of practicing on their last of organized team activities, or OTAs, the New York Jets decided to take a stab at some team bonding by having a voluntary paintball day. Tweets, Vines, and Instagram pictures from players made their way around this morning, although many were later deleted.

This seems like the perfect event for a team full of players that are more than used to taking shots at each other. Just two weeks ago, an anonymous player said that “80 to 90 percent” of the team doesn’t want Mark Sanchez as their quarterback. Last season, the Jets were plagued by anonymous player stories seemingly every other week. What better way to work out issues like that than by shooting each other with gelatin shells filled with water soluble dye?

It isn’t clear if embattled quarterback Mark Sanchez made his way to the paintball outing, but one thing is for sure: he’d be an asset for any paintball team to have. Sanchez’s inept ability at hitting players on the opposing team with balls applies perfectly to this sport. If and when — more likely when — his career comes to an end, this might be a seamless transition for him.

If you know anything about Nick Mangold, the New York Jets’ All-Pro center, you might not be surprised to hear that he showed up in full army fatigues for the bonding event, as you can see below. He looks like an absolute boss as always, but I’m not sure that the outfit is going to do much to hide the 6’4″, 307-pound center.

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Speaking of having a hard time hiding, check out Vladimir Ducasse (far right) in the group picture above. Ducasse is listed at a generous 325 pounds and is not exactly the most athletically gifted offensive lineman in the league. Something tells me that Vladdy had a very long day.

This is classic New York Jets, foregoing all logic related to football in lieu of a headline-grabbing story. The Jets are coming off of a 6-10 season and are ranked as the worst team in the league, and yet they’re skipping practice to play paintball. But you know what they say: Super Bowls are won and lost on the paintball field. Oh, wait, nobody’s ever said that.

© 2013 SportsGrid, LLC

JCMAN320
June 13th, 2013, 01:27 AM
What a joke this franchise is. The Jets and the Mets are attached at the hip as second class citizens and are cautionary tales in how to not run a professional sports franchise.

eddhead
June 13th, 2013, 09:17 AM
I agree the franchise is a joke at this point, but not because of paintball. Let's not equate this with IRS examiners doing a boondoggle offsite in Hawaii or wherever the hell they went on taxpayer dollars.

This was a one day team building event, before anything substative could be planned in practice. Almost like a launch point. I kind of like the idea, as long as I am not paying for it.

The fact that the team is a mess doesn't mean that every little thing that happens or that they do gets placed under a microscope or warrants a colonoscopy We should not take from this that this team builidng event reflects dysfunction or lack of focus.

This was nothing.

IrishInNYC
June 13th, 2013, 09:25 AM
The paintball team-building exercise is probably the best thing the Jets have done in about 5 years.

ZippyTheChimp
June 13th, 2013, 09:44 AM
I disagree.

The paintball event is symptomatic of an organization that has no focus on what it has to do to win a championship; and until that is realized and corrected, they will fail. They may have fun and provide fodder for the back-pages, but ultimately - crash and burn.

A stark video comparison of Belichick and Ryan:

It's Comical To See How Differently Rex Ryan And Bill Belichick Handled Their First Tim Tebow Questions (http://www.businessinsider.com/how-rex-ryan-and-belichick-answered-first-tebow-questions-2013-6)

IrishInNYC
June 13th, 2013, 11:11 AM
The facetiousness was lost on my last post. The Jets are a joke and have been for a longtime (since '69?). That someone didn't blow out a knee while paint balling is amazing.

The interview mash up is typical of the two coaches...Ryan justifying an unjustifiable decision with rambling stories and loving the attention and Belichick simply grunting at reporters because the NFL makes him be there.

eddhead
June 13th, 2013, 02:42 PM
I disagree.

The paintball event is symptomatic of an organization that has no focus on what it has to do to win a championship; and until that is realized and corrected, they will fail. They may have fun and provide fodder for the back-pages, but ultimately - crash and burn.

I don't agree with that at all. The problem is this team has become a lightingrod for publicity - everything they do get measured and analyzed. They brought that on themselves - fair enough - but this a non-event and means nothing.

Asfor Ryan's effectiveness, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a coach that has brought his team to consecutive AFC championship finals He is not without some success in this league.

ZippyTheChimp
June 13th, 2013, 03:49 PM
The problem is this team has become a lightingrod for publicity - everything they do get measured and analyzed. They brought that on themselves - fair enough - but this a non-event and means nothing.You just answered it. The event [or non-event] has to be taken in regard to the situation they are in. You can say that Tebow himself is a lightning rod for publicity, and look at the way Belichick handled it. Refused to talk about it.

In contrast, not only did Ryan yackity-yack too much when Tebow joined the Jets , he's still talking about him. He should have just said, "Tebow is no longer a Jet. I wish him success except for when they play us. Next question."


Asfor Ryan's effectiveness, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a coach that has brought his team to consecutive AFC championship finals He is not without some success in this league.That's fine if you want to have some success, but there's a tiny window of opportunity for any NFL team. Ryan was given a rookie QB with a lot of potential, and the best DB in the league [that's something else he should have shut up about]; instead of building on the playoff experience, he let it crash and burn.

Now they have to start over.

eddhead
June 13th, 2013, 07:59 PM
The Jets out and out blew the Tebow situation. In making a big play to bring him in as a potential big play maker they miss-managed expectations and set the whole organization up to fail. And that is on Johnson, not Ryan. The Patriots on the other hand have much more modest expectations. As you yourself have pointed out, he is not even guaranteed money. I don't think it would shock the football world if he failed to make the team, and if he does, I don't think ANYONE expects him to run the wildcat while Brady sits on the bench.

The Jets set Tebow and Sanchez up to fail. As far as I am concerned you highlighted the difference between Kraft (who empowers Belichik) and Johnson (who is too involved in these types of decisons), not Belichik and Ryan.

As to Ryan's "yacktiy-yack" style it is just that a style. Both the Harbaugh brothers are brash too - and very un-Belichik like, but you can't say they have not been successful

There is merit in questioning Ryan as a talent evaluator - The Sanchez pick for instance, was a disaster, but again, the more signifiant error was in extending his contract. He has a chance to redeem himself with Wilkerson, Couples and the other DL picks.

The Jets problem is systemic and starts at the top. Ryan has had his ups and downs, but the fact he is not Belichik or does not emulate his style does not mean he cannot be successful.

The Jets have a dysfunctional organization. But it starts at the top.

GordonGecko
June 13th, 2013, 10:43 PM
It's Comical To See How Differently Rex Ryan And Bill Belichick Handled Their First Tim Tebow Questions (http://www.businessinsider.com/how-rex-ryan-and-belichick-answered-first-tebow-questions-2013-6)
I don't see the comedy, I just see Rex being Rex (blabber mouth) and Bill being Bill (tight lipped)

ZippyTheChimp
June 13th, 2013, 10:47 PM
As far as I am concerned you highlighted the difference between Kraft (who empowers Belichik) and Johnson (who is too involved in these types of decisons), not Belichik and Ryan.Nope. The comparison you are looking for is between Kraft and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, who severely restricts all his field coaches.

For all his idiocy, Woody Johnson has indulged Ryan more than any owner I can think of, given him free rein to do - and say - what he wants. Even allowed him a voice in picking his own boss. Any wonder there weren't many takers?


As to Ryan's "yacktiy-yack" style it is just that a style. Both the Harbaugh brothers are brash too - and very un-Belichik like, but you can't say they have not been successfulI don't understand this comparison. Jim Harbaugh in particular, is an unpleasant personality, just the opposite of good ol' Rex. But I don't think it's a matter of style. Harbaugh's personality doesn't detract from his ability to control his team. You can't say that about Ryan.


The Jets problem is systemic and starts at the top.If the man at the top knew what he was doing, he would have allowed his prospective GM to pick his own staff.

eddhead
June 14th, 2013, 10:04 AM
Nope. The comparison you are looking for is between Kraft and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, who severely restricts all his field coaches.

For all his idiocy, Woody Johnson has indulged Ryan more than any owner I can think of, given him free rein to do - and say - what he wants.


The decision to sign Tebow fell squarely on Johnson, despite his denials. That is a personnel move, Johson should have stayed away from
The decision to let Revis go fell sqaurely on Johnson who was insulted by Revis continually complaining about his contract. ALthough it freed up a ton of cap space, I am convinced this did not come from Idzik. There have been rumor for some time now that Johnson was peeved about Reevis and his demands. Either way, I guarantee you Ryan did not support that move.
The descison to not go to the salary cap last year despite having the need to fill numerous personnel gaps falls on Johnson. They were $8MM short of the cap last year despite going into the season knowing they needed a tackle, WR's and LBing support.



I don't understand this comparison. Jim Harbaugh in particular, is an unpleasant personality, just the opposite of good ol' Rex. But I don't think it's a matter of style. Harbaugh's personality doesn't detract from his ability to control his team. You can't say that about Ryan.

My point is, you don't have to be a Belichik to be an effective coach.


If the
man at the top knew what he was doing, he would have allowed his prospective GM to pick his own staff.

Doesn't contradict my point. Johnson is to involved in certain aspects of day-to-day operations, including picking the coach. Ryan should have had to interview for his job with Idzik.

IrishInNYC
June 14th, 2013, 10:16 AM
Umm, how bout them Giants?

You hear that? Yup, me neither.;)

eddhead
June 14th, 2013, 10:36 AM
Umm, how bout them Giants?

You hear that? Yup, me neither.;)

To an extent that is my point. Where at the stage now, where everyting the Jets do falls under intense scrutney. This paintball thing was a nothing - teams do stuff like this all the time. Bowling events for instance. But because it's the Jets is a big deal.

As I said, they bring this on themselves. But that does not mean this was a newsworthy event. Must have been a slow day in the sports deparment.

ZippyTheChimp
June 14th, 2013, 02:18 PM
The decision to sign Tebow fell squarely on Johnson, despite his denials. That is a personnel move, Johson should have stayed away fromPersonnel moves in the NFL are decided by the owner and his general manager. The head coach has input, but he takes the players that the GM gives him.

The rest of your post [Revis, etc] is also about the domain of the owner and the GM. Whatever problems there are with them, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm taking about the part of the operation that Ryan is responsible for - his job description.


My point is, you don't have to be a Belichik to be an effective coach.You're still missing the point. The only reason Belichick enters the discussion is the common factor between him and Ryan - Tim Tebow; how each of them handled it. Ryan magnified Tebow's persona and potential to be a distraction, and in the process helped destroy his QB. Belichick realizes this, so he refuses to make Tebow a central issue.


Doesn't contradict my point. Johnson is to involved in certain aspects of day-to-day operations, including picking the coach. Ryan should have had to interview for his job with Idzik.Doesn't work. If an existing head coach has to reapply for his job with a new GM, he's lost credibility with the team.

I don't know what day-to-day operations you're talking about; I see Johnson's problem as not setting up an organization with a clear chain of responsibility, giving Ryan too much of a say.

ZippyTheChimp
June 14th, 2013, 02:34 PM
Umm, how bout them Giants?

You hear that? Yup, me neither.;)


As I said, they bring this on themselves.You're talking in circles. They cause a problem; they continually do things to amplify the problem; you're surprised at the reaction.


But that does not mean this was a newsworthy event.It was OTA. the media is watching all teams. The Giants had an issue when Nicks didn't show up, leading to all sorts of media speculation. Coughlin voiced his disappointment, and they moved on.

The Jets could have gone bowling, or played paintball, and otherwise engaged in team bonding after OTA.

eddhead
June 14th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Personnel moves in the NFL are decided by the owner and his general manager. The head coach has input, but he takes the players that the GM gives him.

We cannot blame Ryan for personnel moves such as drafting Sanchez, and signing Scott and than suggest he is not responsible for them.


The rest of your post [Revis, etc] is also about the domain of the owner and the GM. Whatever problems there are with them, that's not what I'm talking about.
Personnel moves are the domain of the GM, not the owner. The owner sets the budget. The Coach identifies the need, and influencs the type of player he favors. The GM finds them and manages the cap.

Owners who make personnel decisons, usually make bad choices. Jerry Jones comes to mind. Do the Mara's make personnel decisions?



I'm taking about the part of the operation that Ryan is responsible for - his job description.

We have had this discussion before. Admittedly there have been lapses - you can say that about ANY team, but for the most part, he gets his team ready to play.


You're still missing the point. The only reason Belichick enters the discussion is the common factor between him and Ryan - Tim Tebow; how each of them handled it. Ryan magnified Tebow's persona and potential to be a distraction, and in the process helped destroy his QB. Belichick realizes this, so he refuses to make Tebow a central issue.

And your missing mine. It was the Jets front office that magnified the Tebow persona as you put it. Remember the siging, and the inital press conference? Do you think Ryan orchestrated that? The hype came from the front office. Ryan just played the game.


Doesn't work. If an existing head coach has to reapply for his job with a new GM, he's lost credibility with the team.
I don't agree with that at all. It happens all the time in business and people move on.


I don't know what day-to-day operations you're talking about; I see Johnson's problem as not setting up an organization with a clear chain of responsibility, giving Ryan too much of a say.

Refer to personnel moves section.


You're talking in circles. They cause a problem; they continually do things to amplify the problem; you're surprised at the reaction.

I didn't say I was suprised at the reaction. I said a paintball team building exercise is not normally worthcommenting on. Everything the Jets do these days gets magnified - yes they deserve that. But this is no big deal. Move on, there is nothing to see here.

ZippyTheChimp
June 14th, 2013, 06:55 PM
We cannot blame Ryan for personnel moves such as drafting SanchezYou keep saying that Ryan took the Jets to 2 AFC championship games, but his QB was Sanchez. When did drafting Sanchez become a bad move? Last year?

So Ryan has had some success, but the QB that took all the snaps those two years gets little credit; he's reduced to a bad draft selection.

Monday morning quarterbacking.


Personnel moves are the domain of the GM, not the owner.The owner owns the team. The GM works for the owner, and the head coach works for the GM. That doesn't seem to be a working model for the Jets. you can't blame the other two, and give Ryan a pass. He's done a lousy job.


We have had this discussion before. Admittedly there have been lapses - you can say that about ANY team, but for the most part, he gets his team ready to play.Lapses? That's putting it mildly.

eddhead
June 16th, 2013, 11:35 PM
You keep saying that Ryan took the Jets to 2 AFC championship games, but his QB was Sanchez. When did drafting Sanchez become a bad move? Last year?

The jury has always been out on Sanchez. He showed promise his first two years in - and lapses too. At first we wrote the lapses off to youth and the fact he had such little college experience. He redshirted his first two years at USC, and really didn't get to play much until he was a senior. We were waiting to see if the impetuousness and mistakes were the result of inexperience or skill.

The problem is the Jets thought he was ready after two years ago and staffed for a more advanced passing game - Tomlinson, Holmes, etc.. again, he showed enough promise to give hope, but not enough for for us to be certain he was the franchise QB they intended. The jury was still out. Nevertheless, they placed their bet on a long-term contract perhaps prematurely and this is where they effed up. No matter what happens from this time forward. weather he turns it around or not, that was a major error in judgment on Tannenbuam's part, and he was justifiably released as a result.

Than they thought - ok, one more year in the league, he has had some success mixed in with some rather curious play, but 3 years = maturity - he's ready. So yes, last year was the make or break year for him. His time in the league and tenure as starter at that point should have been enough to compensate for his lack of experience in collage. The team, the press, even Sanhez himself positioned the year that way. And he fell on his ass. Literally and figuratively.

And THAT is the reason last year was such a major disappointment. He showed enough early on to at least provide a glimmer. Last year when the stage was set and expectations were highest he failed. Miserably.


So Ryan has had some success, but the QB that took all the snaps those two years gets little credit; he's reduced to a bad draft selection.

Monday morning quarterbacking.

Big time strawman.

The Jets teams that reached the conference finals featured dominant defense and special teams, and a near league leading or arguably league leading ground game fortified by Thomas Jones, the Tomlinson / Greene combination and perhaps more importantly, one of the best O-lines in football. Those components got them there, not Sanchez.

There is simply no way you can objectively compare Sanchez's contributions to those of whom I just documented, or for that matter that matter to Ryan himself. That team perfectly represented Ryan's football vision and personality. He gets creds for that. Anyone who suggests otherwise did not watch many of those games.


The owner owns the team. The GM works for the owner, and the head coach works for the GM. That doesn't seem to be a working model for the Jets. you can't blame the other two, and give Ryan a pass. But that is not how it works on the Jets. Even when Tannenbaum was GM, there were unclear lines of command and organizational dysfunction. That falls on Johnson. Their Gm was not a personnel guy he was a cap expert. Who does that?


He's done a lousy job.
2 conference finals inf 4 years ain't bad/


Lapses? That's putting it mildly.

We discussed this last year. When the Giant's season was on the ropes, and they needed a win to stay in the hunt they got trounced, giving up 40 points, effectively ending their season. That team was not ready to play that day, despite the desperateness of the situation. Couglin is a HOF coach. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anybody.

ZippyTheChimp
June 17th, 2013, 10:01 AM
The jury has always been out on Sanchez. He showed promise his first two years in - and lapses too.


Big time strawman.

The Jets teams that reached the conference finals featured dominant defense and special teams, and a near league leading or arguably league leading ground game fortified by Thomas Jones, the Tomlinson / Greene combination and perhaps more importantly, one of the best O-lines in football. Those components got them there, not Sanchez.

You could also say the jury was out on Ryan, who had his lapses those first two years. But I didn't hear much complaining from Jets fans. On the contrary...

It's not a strawman when you credit Ryan for those two AFC championship appearances, and minimize Sanchez. He was the QB on a team that twice got to the playoffs; it's a big deal for a rookie. The dominant defense and special teams were brought in by Tannenbaum, who was fired. Sanchez will probably also get "fired" either before or after the season. There's a third leg on that stool that was just as bad the last two years.

Well, Ryan has the opportunity to develop (or screw up) another rookie QB. Let's see if he learns from his mistakes.

[Yes Irish, I realize the significance of stool.]

eddhead
June 17th, 2013, 04:18 PM
You could also say the jury was out on Ryan, who had his lapses those first two years. But I didn't hear much complaining from Jets fans. On the contrary...

It's not a strawman when you credit Ryan for those two AFC championship appearances, and minimize Sanchez. He was the QB on a team that twice got to the playoffs; it's a big deal for a rookie.

Ask youself this; If The Jets had a different player, not a star, but solid game manager at QB for those two years, would the outcome had been any different? Would the D, special teams and ground game packaged together with a game manager who was not mistake prone led to less sucessful, more successful, or about the same outcomes?

In my view, WORST case would have been about the same - meaning (using a baseball term) Sanchez's WAR rating is 0 - despite the extreme highs and extreme lows, the outcome was nuetral, and it was the other components that carried them. If you honestly feel that a mid-level replacement QB would have resulted in a worse outome you can argue for Sanchez's contributions.

I have also been thinking about my response to the question "How could Sanchez have been a great pick in years 1 and 2, and a lousy one in year 4 (paraphrased so if I missed it apologies). Early on, what I saw was somone with promise who would grow with the team over time. He has not done that. And that it was why it was a good draft in year 1, and a lousy one in year 4.

And I am STILL not sure the final verdict is in on him. He DOES have physical talents and shows flashes. But I am not at all sure he has the temperment for the job, and that might be the real issue. He may yet find success in the league but probably not in NY. And he'll need to work on his mental toughness first.


The dominant defense and special teams were brought in by Tannenbaum, who was fired. Sanchez will probably also get "fired" either before or after the season. There's a third leg on that stool that was just as bad the last two years.


Tannenbaum did a lot of good things for the team and one very bad one. But Tannenbuam is not now, and never was, a personnel guy. This team was designed to suit Ryan's vision. Tannenbaum used his considerable skills to acquire players suited to Ryan's vi Some of these players were hand-picked by Ryan - Scott, Leonard for instance, others were selected from a list of players that met Ryan's vision. Personnnel selection was not a 1 man responsbility on the Jets.

ZippyTheChimp
June 17th, 2013, 05:41 PM
Ask youself this; If The Jets had a different player, not a star, but solid game manager at QB for those two years, would the outcome had been any different?You could pose the same question about the head coach.


In my view, WORST case would have been about the same - meaning (using a baseball term) Sanchez's WAR rating is 0 - despite the extreme highs and extreme lows, the outcome was nuetral, and it was the other components that carried them. If you honestly feel that a mid-level replacement QB would have resulted in a worse outome you can argue for Sanchez's contributions.Why are you so focused on the first two years? We all know when the problems began.


I have also been thinking about my response to the question "How could Sanchez have been a great pick in years 1 and 2, and a lousy one in year 4 (paraphrased so if I missed it apologies). Early on, what I saw was somone with promise who would grow with the team over time. He has not done that. And that it was why it was a good draft in year 1, and a lousy one in year 4.Sanchez was a better QB than Eli Manning in his first few years. And Manning got his share of sniping from players - star players like Tiki Barber. The difference is that Coughlin defended his QB.

When Jets players started complaining about Sanchez during his third year, Ryan didn't put an end to it; instead at the end of the season he said something about "needing to spend more time with his QB." Oh really? Ya think?

And even that didn't happen. Instead you got talk about how many snaps Tebow was going to get.

And after 4 years, Sanchez can't be evaluated because he was never given the chance to owe the team.

eddhead
June 17th, 2013, 06:48 PM
You could pose the same question about the head coach.

I would. I would ask myself if the team would have the same personnel composition, attitude, personality, stregnths and weaknesses. And in answering those questions, I would say yes, his contributions have been significant.


Why are you so focused on the first two years? We all know when the problems began.

Interesting question considering you began the dialog by asking what made Sanchez a good pick as a rookie and a lousy one in year 4, and further inquiring about why I gave more credit to Ryan for the success they acheived over the first two years than I did to Sanchez.

I am just responding to your question.


Sanchez was a better QB than Eli Manning in his first few years. And Manning got his share of sniping from players - star players like Tiki Barber. The difference is that Coughlin defended his QB.

The difference is Manning progressed where Sanchez stalled and more importantly, Manning exhibited a mental toughness that Sanchez seems to lack. Watch what happens to Sanchez when a play doesn't turned out as planned. Or,as he goes thru his second and third progressions when his primary is covered. Or as he slumps his shoulders and hangs his head after he throws an interception. His body language does not exude confidence.

It is written all over him. He lacks confidence, panics during key moments, and doesn't have control of his team.


In addition, I would point out that it wasn't Couglin who stood behind Manning when the vetern sniping started, it was Manning who stood up for himself when he basically told Tiki to shove it. That's when he became the team leader and that is when the team rallied behind him.

Having the coach stand up for the QB during a confrontation with another player does nothing to enhance the QB's leadership profile. He has to do it himself, much as Eli did, in order for him to earn the respect of his teammates.

This story is a bit dated, buy in his book "Instant Replay" Jerry Kramer recalls that early on in his career, the Packers players thought Bart Starr was a bit weak - despite the fact that Lombardi went out of his way to support his young QB, he wasn't getting the respect he needed from the veterens.

But it seems that at one point in the season, Starr was getting pummelled play after play by an opposing team D-lineman, a tackle I think, who Starr felt was not as good as the GB O-lineman he was up agains. - it may have even been Fuzzy Thurston., Finally Starr called teh GB player out, spot. He spit blood our of his mouth, turned to the offending lineman and said words to the effect that the GB lineman should be ashamed of himself for letting a piece of trash like that beat him, and if he let the pass rusher through the line unimpeded one more time, he was going to kick his ass right there in front of 60,000 fans and send him to the bench. To Kramer that marked a turning point in Starr's leadership progression and changed the team's perception of him.

And I have seen Eli, and for that matter Simms, Marino, Rodgers, etc ... all do similar things.

I am not sure Sanchez has that in him.

At the end of the day, he has to stand up for himself. Ryan is his coach, not his nanny.


When Jets players started complaining about Sanchez during his third year, Ryan didn't put an end to it; instead at the end of the season he said something about "needing to spend more time with his QB." Oh really? Ya think?

See above.



And after 4 years, Sanchez can't be evaluated because he was never given the chance to owe the team.

And that is on him. He never grabbed hold of the reins, and he never stepped up to the leadership mantle. He LET Holmes embarrass him and didn't even bother to respond. Compare that to how Eli handled Tiki.

ZippyTheChimp
June 17th, 2013, 11:15 PM
I would. I would ask myself if the team would have the same personnel composition, attitude, personality, stregnths and weaknesses. And in answering those questions, I would say yes, his contributions have been significant.Confirmation bias?


Interesting question considering you began the dialog by asking what made Sanchez a good pick as a rookie and a lousy one in year 4, and further inquiring about why I gave more credit to Ryan for the success they acheived over the first two years than I did to Sanchez.I didin't begin that dialog. You started it with post #226, talking about Ryan's accomplishments
Asfor Ryan's effectiveness, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a coach that has brought his team to consecutive AFC championship finals I said nothing about that, and you followed up with #236:
We cannot blame Ryan for personnel moves such as drafting Sanchez

That's when I asked the question - not really beginning the dialog.


The difference is Manning progressed where Sanchez stalled and more importantly, Manning exhibited a mental toughness that Sanchez seems to lack.That's all conjecture. The fact is that one coach left his first round pick out to fend for himself, while the other coach didn't. If we're going to speculate on what-ifs, where might the two QBs be today if the coaches were switched?


In addition, I would point out that it wasn't Couglin who stood behind Manning when the vetern sniping started, it was Manning who stood up for himself when he basically told Tiki to shove it. That's when he became the team leader and that is when the team rallied behind him.That's not true. Regardless of how Manning reacted, the coach had his back.


Having the coach stand up for the QB during a confrontation with another player does nothing to enhance the QB's leadership profile. He has to do it himself, much as Eli did, in order for him to earn the respect of his teammates.Name me one respected head coach that would have allowed his wideouts to publicly criticize a young QB, especially one that the team traded up to draft.

Just one.


This story is a bit dated, buy in his book "Instant Replay" Jerry Kramer recalls that early on in his career, the Packers players thought Bart Starr was a bit weak - despite the fact that Lombardi went out of his way to support his young QB, he wasn't getting the respect he needed from the veterens.Respected coach, that Lombardi guy. That's one off your list.

And finally, the QB is the coach on the field. There has to be communication between them. Ryan saying that he had to get more involved with his QB - uh next season - is a coach not doing his job.

At any rate, Ryan has another rookie to experiment with. Let's see if he's learned anything.

ZippyTheChimp
June 17th, 2013, 11:26 PM
I don't see the comedy, I just see Rex being Rex (blabber mouth)Ralph Kramden?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHZmP15rs0

IrishInNYC
June 18th, 2013, 02:35 PM
Some salt on the wound. The Jets have to pay the Broncos $1.53M as part of last year's deal. A lot of money for empty space. The Pats on the other hand are paying Tebow an non guaranteed $1.36M over 2 years.

eddhead
June 18th, 2013, 02:39 PM
Confirmation bias?

I don't know what that means


I didin't begin that dialog. You started it with post #226, talking about Ryan's accomplishmentsI said nothing about that, and you followed up with #236:

My starting it on line 226 was a direct result of your comparing Ryan to Belichik. It was simply a reminder that Ryan has has some success in thils league and one not need to be a Belichik clone to be successful. Here is the exact quote you refer to:


Asfor Ryan's effectiveness, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a coach that has brought his team to consecutive AFC championship finals He is not without some success in this league.

I would not classify this being an area of focus for me, but if you do, so be it.

Everything that followed from that point on, was a direct response to a question you raised.


That's when I asked the question - not really beginning the dialog.

You have take that quote completely out of context and in so doing, deliberatly misrepresented my meaning

Frankly I expect that from some people on this board, but not you. Here is my exact quote:


We cannot blame Ryan for personnel moves such as drafting Sanchez, and signing Scott and than suggest he is not responsible for them.

The context I referred to was in regard to who has control over personnel decisons on the Jets and in response to this again was a response to your post:


Personnel moves in the NFL are decided by the owner and his general manager. The head coach has input, but he takes the players that the GM gives him.

This was me CRITICIZING Ryan, not defending him.

I have in the past strongly suggested that more than anyone else in the organziation Ryan was responsible for moving up and drafting Sanchez - and he deserves criticism for doing so, or credit if Sanchez makes it. I have have also taken the position that although Ryan is at least partly accountable for the selection, Tannenbaum is responsible for the contract extension which put the Jets under water vis-a-vis the cap. The decision to draft may have been a poor one, but the decsion to extend his contract was incomprehensible and ultimately fatal and wortht of dismissal.


That's all conjecture. The fact is that one coach left his first round pick out to fend for himself, while the other coach didn't. If we're going to speculate on what-ifs, where might the two QBs be today if the coaches were switched?

That's not true. Regardless of how Manning reacted, the coach had his back.

Couglin has continually suppored Manning throughout his tenure, as Ryan has supported Sanchez. And he still does:


That said, the Jets are expecting Sanchez to rise to the occasion and make the competition interesting. As noted at NJ.com (http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2013/04/rex_ryan_john_idzik_spend_day.html), head coach Rex Ryan expects that the public will see the "best Sanchez they've ever seen

But that is not the point. The fact is, when Manning shot back, he gained the trust and respect of his teammates. Coughlin could not have done that for him.

It was Manning's actions, not Couglin's that earned him the respect.

Ryan has expressed public support for his QB on numerous prior occassions. Apparently, Sanchez was not emboldened enough by that support to push back on Holmes. That is on Sanchez and speaks to his lack of mental toughness.


Name me one respected head coach that would have allowed his wideouts to publicly criticize a young QB, especially one that the team traded up to draft.

Just one.

Wrong question, although if I had the time and inclination, I am sure I could find something from TO, or Ochocinco, or Keyshawn, or somone. WR's are notoriously critical of QB's

Here are some quotes from Ryan on Holmes


“I brought Santonio in here to be a receiver, not to be the offensive coordinator,” Ryan told the website. “And that's the way it is. I love Santonio, but I wanted to hire him as our offensive coordinator, we would've."
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/jets/rex_responds_to_holmes_criticism_fjSBIUSezN7AMdYW2 Tuf1M

He was also pulled off the field and benched for being non-responsive to Sanchez during a game, and for being disruptive to the team. Ryan could have reacted more strongly, but so could have Sanchez who said nothing at all. If he want to be the team leader, he can't take this stuff.


Respected coach, that Lombardi guy. That's one off your list.

I think you missed the point, which wasn't about Lombardi at all. Or perhaos you are being dissmissive to diminish it, which is also kind of manipulative. But that fact remains, Starr had to stand up for himself to gain his teammates respect.


And finally, the QB is the coach on the field.

Seen a lot of that from Sanchez have you? What I have mostly seen is head hanging and shoulder slumping


There has to be communication between them. Ryan saying that he had to get more involved with his QB - uh next season - is a coach not doing his job.

He was wrong to off load that to Shotty, I will give you that, but some large part of that statement was intended to take some pressure off Sanchez and off-load it to Ryan. It was an attempt to support his rookie.l

Than again, he is not the first Head Coach not to be directly involved in a rookie QB's development.

ZippyTheChimp
June 18th, 2013, 04:14 PM
My starting it on line 226 was a direct result of your comparing Ryan to Belichik.My comparing the two - actually the video did - was in the present, right now, not his first two years. You're talking in circles again.

But maybe with this...

It was simply a reminder that Ryan has has some success in thils league and one not need to be a Belichik clone to be successful.''' I'll try and close the circle.

When we discussed this last year, I brought up that "same old Jets" was a faulty perception by Jets fans, something that would be better suited to several other NFL teams. I pointed out that, while they hadn't won a SB in decades, some teams have never been to one, and others have had years of dismal records. The Jets, on the other hand, have had many good seasons in the past couple of decades.

At some point, you stated something to the effect of "should we be satisfied with that."

That wasn't what I was driving at, but point well made.

Fast forward to the present. My first post on the paint-ball issue #224:
The paintball event is symptomatic of an organization that has no focus on what it has to do to win a championshipGoes right to your point from last year.

So now you reverse course, and talk about the success Ryan has had his first two years. Are you endorsing "same old Jets," or do you want to go to the SB?

Your complaining that I misrepresented your meaning misses the point that I have not been talking about the first two years except to respond to you. Again see #224. I've been looking to the future in this discussion, what I thought you wanted to do last season; now you seem to be interested in defending Ryan by looking backward. I don't care if the owner, GM, head coach, or QB is more responsible for the collapse; they all share the blame. It's doubtful the owner will leave; the GM is gone; the QB probably will be gone; the coach stays.

A recipe for failure.

--------------------------------------------------

As for Lombardi, and this goes for Ryan, Coughlin, or any coach. It's besides the point what the QB, or GM, or owner have to do; the head coach has a job. Lombardi did his job, even though his QB had to grow up by himself.

In one of the last few games last year, Ryan had Tebow suited up instead of McElroy as the backup QB. Tebow had broken ribs. That's a coach not doing his job.

eddhead
June 18th, 2013, 05:03 PM
I can't respond to this at the moment, except to say, you are conflating my lack of satisfaction with the Jets with my appraisal of their head coach. The issues run deeper than Ryan - it goes to the very essence of the organization and executive managment.

Johnson is a corporate type, not a sporty type, and even as a corporate manager is deficient.

eddhead
June 18th, 2013, 06:05 PM
QUOTE=ZippyTheChimp;432109]My comparing the two - actually the video did - was in the present, right now, not his first two years. You're talking in circles again.[/quote]

Jesus Christ.

Once again, I am merely suggesting that one does not have to be a Belichik clone to be successful in this league, by pointing out instances where a coach was NOT Belichik like and succeeded. That is NOT talking in circles.


But maybe with this...
''' I'll try and close the circle.

When we discussed this last year, I brought up that "same old Jets" was a faulty perception by Jets fans, something that would be better suited to several other NFL teams. I pointed out that, while they hadn't won a SB in decades, some teams have never been to one, and others have had years of dismal records. The Jets, on the other hand, have had many good seasons in the past couple of decades.

At some point, you stated something to the effect of "should we be satisfied with that."

That wasn't what I was driving at, but point well made.

And I stand by that comment. Let me take my prior observation concerning organizational dysfucntion a bit deeper. I have followed this team for 45 + years and for the most part they weren't only organizationally dysfunctional, they were organizationlly absent. First Hess, than Johnson The ship is run by fools - corporate types who are more interested in milking profits than they are in fielding competitive football teams.

Where they've been competitive, it was almost by accident. Parcells assumed the mantle of Football VP and Head Coach and in so doing instilled some organziatonal discipline in the front office as well as on the field. He was able to do this because he had the title, authority and mathle. Ryan does not have that authority. For the most part, Couglin doesn't either. But unlike Ryan, he does benefit from organziational stability and rationality.

Ask yourself this: would Couglin in his current role as HC only with no front office responsibility, have been as successful on the Jets as he was on the Giants? Really??


Fast forward to the present. My first post on the paint-ball issue #224:Goes right to your point from last year.

I don't see it. I think that is a major stretch.


So now you reverse course, and talk about the success Ryan has had his first two years. Are you endorsing "same old Jets," or do you want to go to the SB?

The team that went to consecutive finals was not the same old Jets. They had attitude, confidence, and swagger - something to build on. They let go of Thomas Jones for salary considerations. They let go of Fanneca for salary considerations. They let go of Leonard for salary considerations. They let go of Ellis for salary considerations. Each of these players could have been signed for modest compensation but we lost them all and with that a lot of veteren leadershil. And when they came under the cap - they didn't even fill the void.

You think that is on Ryan??


Your complaining that I misrepresented your meaning misses the point that I have not been talking about the first two years except to respond to you. Again see #224. I've been looking to the future in this discussion, what I thought you wanted to do last season; now you seem to be interested in defending Ryan by looking backward. I don't care if the owner, GM, head coach, or QB is more responsible for the collapse; they all share the blame. It's doubtful the owner will leave; the GM is gone; the QB probably will be gone; the coach stays.

Firstly, there was no reason to take half my post in your quote, delete the rest, and take the whole thing out of context. It completely miss-represented my point. Secondly, for reasons I have already gone into the lion's share of the blame falls on Johnson for not financially supporting the team and sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong, and Tannenbaum extending out Sanchez. And the Gholston pick didn't help him either. 2 no 6 overall picks resulted in shit.

--------------------------------------------------


As for Lombardi, and this goes for Ryan, Coughlin, or any coach. It's besides the point what the QB, or GM, or owner have to do; the head coach has a job. Lombardi did his job, even though his QB had to grow up by himself.

In addition to my previous post which highlights how Ryan is currently supporting Sanchez, here are more from an historical perspective:
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/rex-ryan-has-defended-mark-sanchez-a-lot-over-the-last-four-years/


Thus far, there’s never really been any question as to who’s the starting quarterback of the New York Jets, as Ryan has made a point of squashing any potential QB controversy rumors. But now that Sanchez is off to another horrible start, completing 49.2% of his passes with 5 TDs and 6 turnovers (4 INTs), Sanchez is back on the chopping block.
So Rex stomped out the rumors once more (via NYDN (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/sanchez-rex-backing-article-1.1172090)):
“‘I just know in my heart right now that this is not the time,’ Ryan said on Monday. ‘I think Tim is an outstanding player. I think Mark is. Right now, I think Mark gives us our best opportunity to win. I will always do, in my opinion, what’s in the best interest of this team… no matter who it is.’”



This when he was under heavy pressure to take Sanchez out

1. Ocotber 28, 2009 (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2009/10/rex-ryan-mark-sanchez-was-disrespecting-raiders-by-eating-hot-dog/1#.UGs-wo4W5Dw), after Mark Sanchez ate a hot dog on the sidelines against the Oakland Raiders:
“‘To me, I’m an old-school football guy and you’re playing a great game of football. I know you’re hungry, but leave that for the fans,’ Ryan told reporters. ‘You can go to the locker room and you can eat afterward. You know, hey, that’s not the biggest mistake he’s ever going to make[/quote




2. September 16, 2010 (http://www.nesn.com/2010/09/rex-ryan-defends-mark-sanchez-after-tedy-bruschi-calls-quarterback-front-runner.html), following comments by ESPN analyst Teddy Bruschi:
“‘I respect the heck out of Tedy Bruschi, no question, but I think he would have a different opinion if he was here every day,’ Ryan said at his Thursday news conference. ‘I really do respect him. That’s a tough dude and he’s smart. I think he would feel much different if he was here because of the way [Sanchez] leads on the practice field, the personality he has. ‘What [Bruschi] says about him when we get ahead, that’s how he is every day on the practice field,’ Ryan continued. ‘It never went our way on Monday night, but I would definitely not put Mark in a front-running category. This guy is a competitor and I think Bruschi would have loved to play with him.’





4. August 18, 2011 (http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2011/08/rex_ryan_says_mark_sanchez_is.html), Rex Ryan calls Mark Sanchez “elite”:
“‘This guy has won four playoffs games in two years, all on the road,’ Ryan said today. ‘When you talk about elite quarterbacks, I think he’s an elite quarterback because he wins the big games, and he’s a winner




. November 18, 2011 (http://newyork.sbnation.com/new-york-jets/2011/11/18/2571493/new-york-jets-nfl-week-11-rex-ryan-mark-sanchez), following a loss to Tim Tebow and the Denver Broncos:
“‘This is our QB. He’s going to be our QB as long as I’m here, which I hope is a long, long time,’ said Ryan.”




December 27, 2011 (http://newyork.sbnation.com/2011/12/27/2663376/rex-ryan-jets-mark-sanchez-brian-schottenheimer), following a poor peformance against the New York Giants:
“‘I’ve stated over and over my feelings about Mark Sanchez. And I’ve said it before, no quarterback’s going to look great when that’s all you do and you fall behind and things like that, but it wasn’t Mark’s best day by any stretch of the imagination, but we know he’s done it. And he’s been doing it. We have great confidence in him and I have great confidence in him,’ Ryan said.”





15. August 4, 2012 (http://www.thesportschronline.com/2012/08/04/new-york-jets-reset-by-joseph-haas-adjusting-the-volume/), on the Tebow-Sanchez QB controversy (again!):
““Mark Sanchez is our starting quarterback, but we have an athlete and special talent in Tim Tebow that allows us to do different things that maybe other teams don’t have. So we’re going to play Tim Tebow because it helps us, it’s going to help our football team win games


With all of that, Sanchez never found the fortitude and confidence to stand up for himself when challanged by a teammate.

Do you think that support would have been enough for Eli?


In one of the last few games last year, Ryan had Tebow suited up instead of McElroy as the backup QB. Tebow had broken ribs. That's a coach not doing his job.

Are you tryng to tell me that you cannot recall other instance where QB's played with fractured ribs while wearing flack jackets? Please don't make me go back and do research on that. There are tons of them.

ZippyTheChimp
June 18th, 2013, 06:44 PM
Jesus ChristAppealing to deities? That's not fair.


Ask yourself this: would Couglin in his current role as HC only with no front office responsibility, have been as successful on the Jets as he was on the Giants? Really??More conjecture on something that can't possibly be proven.

But I'll say one thing about Coughlin on the Jets. It might not made any difference, but he wouldn't have been part of the problem. He would have done his job as head coach.


I think that is a major stretch.You stated last year that it wasn't enough for the Jets to have some success; I said in #224 that the Jets are not going to win a championship the way they're structured. What stretch?


The team that went to consecutive finals was not the same old Jets. They had attitude, confidence, and swagger - something to build on.Do they have it now? No. Did they build on it? No.

Are they now the new same old Jets; or is it the old same new Jets?


I can bring up anecdotal instances where Ryan did the opposite, but I see no reason to waste time digging them up as long as you're going to whine about being misrepresented. Get a grip - it's a freaking sports thread.


Are you tryng to tell me that you cannot recall other instance where QB's played with fractured ribs while wearing flack jackets? Please don't make me go back and do research on that. There are tons of them.Ryan didn't know for ten days that Tebow's ribs were cracked. He said after the game that he didn't intend to play Tebow except in an emergency.

So he suits up a player who is basically unavailable, and doesn't suit up one whose job it is to wait on the sideline in case the starting QB can't play. Ryan not doing his job.

Here's a question: If the Jets don't make the playoffs this year, should Ryan be let go?