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DMAG
August 24th, 2012, 10:05 AM
Developing....

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/24/13455394-several-people-shot-outside-empire-state-building?lite

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/24/shooting-reported-outside-empire-state-building/


[Updated at 9:55 a.m. ET] - At least 10 people were shot Friday in front of the Empire State Building in New York Friday morning, the New York Office of Emergency Management said.A suspect in the shooting was shot and killed by police, New York police said.

Authorities converged on the building around 9 a.m. after reports of gunfire.

A witness told CNN's Rose Arce that the gunman ran after and shot a man in the head. An unarmed guard chased the gunman away, the witness told Arce.

Police have closed several several streets around 5th Avenue and 34th Street in Manhattan.

New York resident Max Kaplan, 22, said he heard at least nine gunshots. He said several ambulances have arrived at the scene.

"We're all very shaken up at the office," he said.

The Empire State Building is one of the most famous skyscrapers in the world, and one of New York City's best-known tourist attractions.

Each year, about 4 million people visit the building's two observation decks. At more than 1,453 feet tall, the landmark building reaches more than a quarter-mile into the sky.

Ninjahedge
August 24th, 2012, 10:14 AM
I just heard about this at the office myself.

This is really strange. That area is very clean. I hope this is not a copycat crime.....

TREPYE
August 24th, 2012, 11:43 AM
Another [black] feather for the NRA.....

Ninjahedge
August 24th, 2012, 12:36 PM
No no no!!!!


This means we should ALL have guns!

After all, if we did, he would not have been able to shoot someone, and run away shooting before Quick Draw McGraw pulled out his silver 6 and shot him dead!!!


*wark*

eddhead
August 24th, 2012, 01:25 PM
That is right. This way, we can have an exciting 5th ave shootout. Of course there may be some collateral damage, but what the hell, it's good entertainment value!

BigMac
August 24th, 2012, 02:37 PM
New York Times
August 24, 2012

Eleven People Shot Outside Empire State Building

By JAMES BARRON, DAVID M. HALBFINGER and WILLIAM K. RASHBAUM

Slide Show (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2012/08/24/nyregion/20120825-SHOOT.html?ref=nyregion)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/08/25/nyregion/25empire5-span/25empire5-span-articleLarge.jpg
The scene of the shooting by the Empire State Building, on Fifth Avenue, between West 33rd and 34th Streets, on Friday. The body of the suspected shooter, who was identified as Jeffrey Johnson, 58, was inspected by emergency personnel.

A clothing designer who had been fired from a Midtown company shot and killed a former co-worker in the shadow of the Empire State Building on Friday morning and was then killed by the police, in a shootout in which nine bystanders were hurt, the authorities said.

Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said that nine bystanders had been “wounded or grazed” and taken to hospitals. The mayor said that some of the injured may have been hit by police bullets during the confrontation with the suspect, whom Mr. Kelly identified as Jeffrey Johnson, 58, a former clothing designer at Hazan Imports. Mr. Kelly said that the two officers fired a total of 14 rounds and that he believed some of the shooting victims had been shot by the officers “based on the number of people shot and the capacity of” the gunman’s weapon.

The sudden spasm of violence shattered the routine bustle of the morning outside one of the world’s major tourist destinations and set off pandemonium at a busy intersection that was filled with pedestrians and cars. Visitors had begun crowding into the lobby of the building waiting to ascend to the observation deck on the 86th floor, which had already opened.

The former co-worker was identified by the police as Steve Ercolino.

A woman who worked with Mr. Ercolino and has a job in the same building as him said she was walking shoulder-to-shoulder with Mr. Ercolino when he got shot.

The co-worker, Irene Timan, 35, said they were just steps from the front door to their building on West 33rd Street when she saw Mr. Johnson lurking behind a white van parked at the curb.

“I saw him pull a gun out from his jacket, and I thought to myself, ‘Oh my God, he’s going to shoot him’ — and I wanted to turn and push Steve out of the way,” Ms. Timan said, in a telephone interview from the precinct house where she was being interviewed. “I knew it, I just knew it was going to happen. But it was too late. Steve screamed, Jeff shot him, and I just turned and ran.”

She said Mr. Johnson did not say anything before shooting Mr. Ercolino once in the chest. “He didn’t say one word,” Ms. Timan said. She said she learned later that he also shot Mr. Ercolino in the head.

Maureen Minuche, 45, said she was in a deli not far from the shooting scene buying breakfast when she heard people screaming. She said she pushed through a crowd of people standing around a body. “He was shot in the face, probably in the face, because he was disfigured,” she said.

Andrew Pellenberg, 23, and a friend, both from New Jersey, were also nearby, thinking about visiting the Empire State Building. “We heard 10 to 15 gunshots,” Mr. Pellenberg said, “and it was all in a 30-second span.”

Another witness, Rebecca Fox, said she was standing near the building when she saw crowds running away from the area. Then, she said, she saw a man “dead on the ground in front of the Empire State Building.” Officers had been alerted to the shooting by a construction worker who had followed Mr. Johnson from 10 West 33rd Street — where he shot Mr. Ercolino — around the corner and up Fifth Avenue, said Mr. Kelly, who joined the mayor at a briefing about two hours after the shooting.

Mr. Johnson, the commissioner said, was carrying a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun “in a bag under his arm.” It had a capacity of eight bullets, officials said, adding that Mr. Johnson had fired three at Mr. Ercolino, who was apparently a vice president at Hazan Imports. Mr. Bloomberg said Mr. Johnson pulled out his gun “and tried to shoot the cops and kill the cops.”

“They returned fire,” the mayor added. A law enforcement official said later on Friday that Mr. Johnson did not fire his weapon.

Inside the emergency room at Bellevue Hospital Center, Terence Baksmaty, 29, said that his brother, Robert Asika, 23, was one of the shooting victims. Mr. Asika, his brother said, is a student at the Borough of Manhattan Community College but was in the area because he works selling tickets for Gray Line tours.

“I don’t feel too good,” Mr. Baksmaty said. “I just want to see him to make sure he is fine.” He said his mother was rushing to the hospital. “She is not doing great,” he said. “She is very sad and emotional.”

A spokeswoman for Bellevue said it had admitted six patients wounded in the shooting, three men and three women. The youngest was 20, said the spokeswoman, Ana Marengo, adding that the oldest was 43. All were in stable condition, she said, and none had sustained life-threatening injuries. Three other shooting victims were being treated at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center.

The Empire State Building remained closed throughout the day.

Mr. Kelly said Mr. Johnson appeared to have no criminal record. He said that Mr. Johnson had worked at Hazan Imports for six years. “During a downsizing at the company about a year ago,” Mr. Kelly said, “Johnson was laid off.” Mr. Kelly said that Mr. Johnson and Mr. Ercolino had filed harassment complaints against each other relating from a workplace dispute.

Mr. Johnson lived on the third floor of a six-story walk-up on East 82nd Street for about 18 months, said Guillermo Suarez, 72, the super of the building.

Every morning he had the same routine. He would leave the apartment between 7:30 and 8 a.m., say good morning and head to the McDonald’s on Third Avenue and 84th Street. After about 20 minutes, he would come back carrying a McDonald’s bag. He would nearly always wear the same thing — a tannish brown suit, sometimes with a tie. Then he would generally stay in the apartment the rest of the day.

He did the same thing on Friday morning, but this time he did not come back.

© 2012 The New York Times Company

lofter1
August 24th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Turns out all the wounded were hit by NYPD bullets ...




This means we should ALL have guns!

After all, if we did, he would not have been able to shoot someone...





That is right. This way, we can have an exciting 5th ave shootout. Of course there may be some collateral damage, but what the hell, it's good entertainment value!

The NRA always says that we'd all be safer if everybody had a gun.

Then, when a shooter goes wild, some ace will take him down and save everyone else from injury or worse.

Here we had professionals, trained in use of firearms ...




A clothing designer who had been fired from a Midtown company shot and killed a former co-worker in the shadow of the Empire State Building on Friday morning and was then killed by the police, in a shootout in which nine bystanders were hurt, the authorities said.

Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said that nine bystanders had been “wounded or grazed” and taken to hospitals. The mayor said that some of the injured may have been hit by police bullets during the confrontation with the suspect ... Mr. Kelly said that the two officers fired a total of 14 rounds and that he believed some of the shooting victims had been shot by the officers “based on the number of people shot and the capacity of” the gunman’s weapon.

... Mr. Johnson, the commissioner said, was carrying a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun “in a bag under his arm.” ... Mr. Bloomberg said Mr. Johnson pulled out his gun “and tried to shoot the cops and kill the cops.”

“They returned fire,” the mayor added. A law enforcement official said later on Friday that Mr. Johnson did not fire his weapon.


Imagine the results on that crowded street if every packin' passerby pulled a pistol and took aim at the guy. :eek:

mariab
August 25th, 2012, 12:24 PM
A DN story reported that Johnson lived in FL from '83-'92, and bought the gun in '91. The same gun he used to kill Steven Ercolino. I have to wonder, if this guy had never had any conflicts at work or anywhere else, or if he had been a success in his work, would that same gun be left in a shoebox in his closet for the rest of his life.

Btw I don't know if anyone else has noticed the past couple of years, news coverage of murders are getting increasingly graphic. I know that the average citizen is at the ready with whatever electronic picture-taking device they have - them wanting to take that picture is bad enough - but is it necessary for media outlets to display pics of people splayed out on the ground with their blood running down the gutter? It isn't. I saw a picture yesterday someone had taken out of a W 33rd St window showing Mr Ercolino lying dead with bright red running down the sidewalk and there was no blanket covering him yet. I understand pics of a murder scene with blanket-covered victims, but these pics were entirely unnecessary; I still would have read the stories without them.

lofter1
August 26th, 2012, 12:14 PM
Old news adage: If It Bleeds, It Leads.

Folks have always been attracted to blood and guts, and the stories related to them.

ZippyTheChimp
August 26th, 2012, 01:39 PM
Maybe that's what people need to see.

BBMW
August 28th, 2012, 01:41 PM
The reason the perp pulled his gun was that he was confronted by the cops. An armed civilian on the street would have no reason to confront the guy in the first place. Don't take this a blaming the cops. Given the circumstances, they did what they had to do. But that's something that cops can do, that an armed civilian can't (legally)

The only situation in which an armed civilian could interject themselves into a situation like this would be if the perp was waving the gun around, pointing it, and/or actually shooting. In that case he would be actively threatening the lives of those around them. If a civilian was in a positioni to shoot at him in that situation, they'd have to way the risk of shooting a bystander vs the benefit of ending the threat. That's always a consideration.



Turns out all the wounded were hit by NYPD bullets ...





The NRA always says that we'd all be safer if everybody had a gun.

Then, when a shooter goes wild, some ace will take him down and save everyone else from injury or worse.

Here we had professionals, trained in use of firearms ...



Imagine the results on that crowded street if every packin' passerby pulled a pistol and took aim at the guy. :eek:

Ninjahedge
August 28th, 2012, 02:10 PM
BBMW, you are confusing things.

Any citizen could pull the gun if he pulled it to shoot the guy, hence the sarcasm about the ability to stop the crime by having a gun.

As for this line:


The reason the perp pulled his gun was that he was confronted by the cops. An armed civilian on the street would have no reason to confront the guy in the first place. Don't take this a blaming the cops.

Your position is unclear. "Don't blame the cops for shooting civilians"? They shot them. As for the "average (Joe) on the street", why would they not confront someone they think might have shot someone, especially of they were packing themselves and felt they could handle the situation?

I kind of know what you are getting at, but your shot is a little off mark and will get people confronting you on stuff I do not think you meant.


I could be wrong, however... ;)

ZippyTheChimp
August 28th, 2012, 02:17 PM
An armed civilian on the street would have no reason to confront the guy in the first place.Sounds like George Zimmerman.


The only situation in which an armed civilian could interject themselves into a situation like this would be if the perp was waving the gun around, pointing it, and/or actually shooting.Oh really?

So it's not possible that an armed civilian might have witnessed the shooting from the distance, saw the perp walking away, and decided to chase after him? After all, he's armed. So the cops arrive and are confronted by two civilians with handguns.

Is this the landscape you want?

BBMW
August 28th, 2012, 03:47 PM
I don't blame the cops because they were dealing with what they had good reason to believe (and was in fact) an armed suspect that just committed a murder. When confronted, the suspect then pulled the gun on them. Yes, you are correct that they hit bystanders in the ensuing gunfight. But once the perp pull the gun on them, exposing them and any civilians around them to his gunfire, they had to take him out. Sometimes there's no good solution.

Even if someone in front of that building was carrying, they'd have no way to know the perp was armed, and just committed a murder. He would have walked away, no one would have known until later, and there would have been no shooting.


BBMW, you are confusing things.

Your position is unclear. "Don't blame the cops for shooting civilians"? They shot them. As for the "average (Joe) on the street", why would they not confront someone they think might have shot someone, especially of they were packing themselves and felt they could handle the situation?

I kind of know what you are getting at, but your shot is a little off mark and will get people confronting you on stuff I do not think you meant.


I could be wrong, however... ;)[/COLOR]

BBMW
August 28th, 2012, 03:51 PM
This is New York, not Florida. Here, you can only shoot someone if they are presenting a current immediate threat to life. You also have a duty to retreat from the conflict if at all possible (this is different in FL.) Even if you witness a crime, you can't chase down the perp and shoot them (I don't think you can do that in FL either.)


Sounds like George Zimmerman.

Oh really?

So it's not possible that an armed civilian might have witnessed the shooting from the distance, saw the perp walking away, and decided to chase after him? After all, he's armed. So the cops arrive and are confronted by two civilians with handguns.

Is this the landscape you want?

ZippyTheChimp
August 28th, 2012, 03:59 PM
This is New York, not Florida. Here, you can only shoot someone if they are presenting a current immediate threat to life.Yes of course, everyone is at all times fully cognizant of all the rules and regulations that govern daily life. No one makes mistakes. No one acts impulsively or recklessly. Everyone is "law-abiding."

Fantasyland.

Ninjahedge
August 28th, 2012, 04:55 PM
I don't blame the cops.... Yes, you are correct that they hit bystanders in the ensuing gunfight. But...

No "but"s. They did not handle it right. If the guy was no threat to anybody if he did not know he was being followed or challanged, they should have followed him until they could have either isolated him or reduced the bystanders. The FACT that the cops hit so many others also means that they were NOT as careful as they should have been in a crowded area.

I am not calling for their dismissal, or up on criminal charges, but not calling out a screw up is blind loyalty that does us no good.


I want cops that can handle a situation like this with NO bystanders hurt, and the closer they get to that, the better.

BBMW
August 28th, 2012, 05:21 PM
This was an exigent circumstance with uniformed officers responding to a call. It wasn't a stakeout with plainclothed officers who could set up a serepititious tail. I don't know if they knew to look for him and the confronted him, or if he saw them and reflexively pulled his weapon. But once he pointed a gun at them, they had to take him down. I had heard that his gun jammed. If not, he would have likely got the first shots off and may have hit the cops.


No "but"s. They did not handle it right. If the guy was no threat to anybody if he did not know he was being followed or challanged, they should have followed him until they could have either isolated him or reduced the bystanders. The FACT that the cops hit so many others also means that they were NOT as careful as they should have been in a crowded area.

I am not calling for their dismissal, or up on criminal charges, but not calling out a screw up is blind loyalty that does us no good.


I want cops that can handle a situation like this with NO bystanders hurt, and the closer they get to that, the better.

scumonkey
August 28th, 2012, 05:38 PM
They were informed of were he was by a construction worker, and activity pursuing him-
They were only five feet away from him (watch the vid) when they shot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W8cHwNuqH4
so why the need for 17 shots to be fired, seems more than a bit excessive to me?!
With only 5 bullets left in his gun, the cops hit more people than he could have.

stache
August 28th, 2012, 06:29 PM
so why the need for 17 shots to be fired, seems more than a bit excessive to me?!


^ Exactly. High drama and overkill. We need cops that are more calm and rational.

BBMW
August 28th, 2012, 11:49 PM
No one is calm and rational in a gunfight.

ZippyTheChimp
August 29th, 2012, 12:22 AM
Half right.

Ninjahedge
August 29th, 2012, 12:06 PM
Cops are trained to be. That is why they are allowed to carry the guns.

BBMW
August 29th, 2012, 12:22 PM
The try and train them to react as well as possible. You can't train away adreneline.

I post on other forums where there are a lot of cops from all over the country. None had any problem with how these cops reacted.

Ninjahedge
August 29th, 2012, 12:37 PM
That's great. None of them were shot.

People watch too many movies and television programs and fail to realize that they are not "serving and protecting" by shooting bystanders.

Nobody hears of the cop who stopped the guy w/o firing. All we hear about are things like this, so we start to think it is normal.

Like I said. What they did was not criminal or even cause for rebuke, but it was NOT a good takedown. They frightened the perp by calling his name when they were too far away, ran towards him, g ot him to draw and then they let loose.

How many did the perp actually fire? The original story had the cops "chasing him down the street as he pulled his gun and fired around him", now it looks like he did not even get off a shot....

scumonkey
August 29th, 2012, 01:27 PM
then what was the excuse for this- no gun just a knife?! look at how many cops -why not a taser or something...
In the military your trained to only shoot 3 times -again why the need for so many shoots?
this was BS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqriRI2rNfc&feature=related

eddhead
August 29th, 2012, 01:29 PM
The try and train them to react as well as possible. You can't train away adreneline.

I post on other forums where there are a lot of cops from all over the country. None had any problem with how these cops reacted.

Think they might be a bit biased? BTW have you asked any of these officers if they would prefer to have citizens armed so they can assist in these circumstances? I 'ld bet the NYC cops would be against the idea.

ZippyTheChimp
August 29th, 2012, 03:02 PM
I post on other forums where there are a lot of cops from all over the country. None had any problem with how these cops reacted.How often do cops criticize other cops?

Ninjahedge
August 29th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Zip, lets qualify that.

How often do cops criticize other cops in front of citizens? (civilians?)

BBMW
August 30th, 2012, 11:17 AM
I've heard (read) them doing just that. The seem to have no trouble doing it, especially when the subjects are cops from other departments/areas, and it's nothing official.

ZippyTheChimp
August 30th, 2012, 11:37 AM
C'mon, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, it even has a Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall).

And anonymous people on a forum are a poor example. Anyone can say they're a cop.

This is somewhat old information, but an uncle of mine was a detective, told me that cops don't get enough training and follow-up in marksmanship. That was in the 90s; with lower crime it's probably gotten worse.

Ninjahedge
August 30th, 2012, 11:46 AM
I've heard (read) them doing just that. The seem to have no trouble doing it, especially when the subjects are cops from other departments/areas, and it's nothing official.

Do you have cops in the family?

If you did, you would know you were spouting cow pies right now.

Most groups do not bad mouth one another like that (well, Engineers do, but we are the exception... :( ). Cops are even more fraternal. On an issue like this, you will find it very hard to locate criticism this close to a VERY public event. It just is not done.



Zip: One thing I would like for the men entrusted with carrying lethal instruments of enforcement with them on the streets is the ability to hit what they are aiming at.