New York Times Tower - 620 Eighth Avenue

[sfenn1117]

It would be a terrible move by Ratner. Is cost that much of an issue for the glass screens? Is he not making a large enough profit on this project? Give me a break. The screens were an integral componet of the tower as a whole, imo. It will be a lost opportunity.

He might as well nix the spire too, which will now look even more ridiculous.

[ZippyTheChimp]

That quote only states that the garden will be eliminated, but we have already begun to villify Ratner for being a cheapskate in removing the crown and the spire.

[NYatKNIGHT]

I wonder how much a rooftop garden costs.....

[londonlawyer]

That quote only states that the garden will be eliminated, but we have already begun to villify Ratner for being a cheapskate in removing the crown and the spire.

The quote is not clear. Your interpretation is reasonable, and I hope that it's correct.

[Citytect]

It seems to me that the quote is primarily about the rooftop garden. Therefore, the reference to the "extensions of the building's glass curtain wall" is simply there for descriptive value. The author is describing what the garden would have been like not reporting the loss of the building's crown. It would be much more newsworthy if the crown was eliminated. I don't think that information would be hidden in a reference to to the garden.

[RS085]

what i got from the quote was that only the garden is eliminated. not gonna lie, a bit disappointed here. and since were on the subject, will the double floor on top be lit up? ive seen some renderings showing it. big plus if it is.

[RS085]

http://www.levettandbailey.com/images/projects/B-New-York.jpg

[evil_synth]

Just a question on the final height when it is completed: WiredNewYork says it's going to be 1142 ft., and so does emporis (last I checked), and someone on Wikipedia had it as 1042 ft. I corrected it (or so I thought) but a couple days later I was looking through Wikipedia and someone changed it back to 1042 ft. am I missing something on the height?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Tower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallest_buildings_in_New_York_City

[Stern]

Just a question on the final height when it is completed: WiredNewYork says it's going to be 1142 ft., and so does emporis (last I checked), and someone on Wikipedia had it as 1042 ft. I corrected it (or so I thought) but a couple days later I was looking through Wikipedia and someone changed it back to 1042 ft. am I missing something on the height?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Tower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallest_buildings_in_New_York_City


1,042 is the correct height.

[RS085]

ssp and emporis have it listed at 1,046ft...


and i just clicked those links.......wiki also says 1,046ft.

The transparent glass tower, designed by Renzo Piano, will rise 748 feet (228 m) from the street to its roof, but the exterior curtain wall will extend 92 feet higher to 840 feet (256 m), and a mast will extend up to 1,046 feet (319 m).

[panderson]

If the glass crown had been eliminated, would Forest City Ratner still be featuring renderings WITH the crown on its website (http://www.newyorktimesbuilding.com). I don't think so. And is it possible that cutting the crown would have merited only this one back-handed mention in a single newspaper article? Very doubtful. You're misreading the Times article and, I might add, going to pieces over nothing.

That said, it is too bad the garden was eliminated -- it sounded like it would have been a breath-taking space. But I presume the building's tenants would be the only people allowed up there. If I'm not mistaken, there will be a public garden at ground level, in roughly the center the low-rise portion of the building. From the diagrams it appears it will be accessible from the entrances on 40th and 41st Streets.

[Dagrecco82]

As of June 10th.

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/2586/img08996zb.jpg

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/590/img09331vn.jpg

[kz1000ps]

Hot shots -- definitely right-mouse-click quality.

In the first shot, notice how Times Square Tower's slanted black "crown" breaks the difference in height between NYTimes and Conde Nast near perfectly. I was hoping for one more "X" worth of floors, but it apparently has topped out, and the main body does nothing to stick out from the Midtown Mass.

Add another 6-7 stories of height for the crown and it will peak out enough, but I wonder how transparent it will be. I wonder this because if it is mostly opaque, it will look like a continuation of the building, and thus people will "read" the tower as being taller, above the plateau, than the other possibility. If not, it will add to the clutter of the skyline, e.g., Conde Nast's broadcasting structure -- not good IMO.

I guess it's all up to BOA now. And recalling this image..

http://www.nycityscape.com/images/onebryantpark/thesouth.jpg

..I think it will do the trick.

[RS085]

BOA? of course. Its on its way.

As for the NYTimes, it has topped out technically, based on floors, since the remaining is a double, then the mighty crown. It should stand out enough. Im seeing the double floor on top being completely lit in the renderings.

[Dagrecco82]

Thanks, KZNYC2K. I like the way Madam Tussaud's hand sticks out onto 42nd St. on the 1st pic.

[ablarc]

Empire State Building looks good lording it over a bunch of underlings. Don't understand this fetish about keeping it surrounded by low buildings.

[czsz]

It's really not as majestic if only the crown peeks out. Witness the view from uptown:

http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/30419473.jpg

Even less conspicuous:

http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/51657982.jpg

By comparison, a shot across the "lowlands" below 34th St:

http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/41963952.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/41952394.jpg

It really benefits from the breathing space. It's unfortunate that the encased Chrysler doesn't enjoy the same.

[ablarc]

Those foreground buildings in the first photo are miles from the ESB.

I understand the argument and have never been convinced. ESB has always seemed lonely to me. Wish it had some company.

[stache]

What is this building? I can't place it. Thanks!

[Dagrecco82]

What is this building? I can't place it. Thanks!

Millennium Towers North.

[lofter1]

Isn't that building in question ^^ down around 34th / 7th?

[kz1000ps]

Dagrecco is right. This, along with the Nelson Tower at 34th and 7th (the one Lofter thought it was) are two decent art deco buildings that seem to fly under everyone's radar. Probably because I almost always enter Manhattan by way of Penn Station, I've always admired the Nelson Tower, and it's a personal favorite.

This one, though, is on the bland/forgettable side. Yesteryear's equivalent of a large suburban office building.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=115560

[stache]

I have probably walked by it a thousand times but only looked at the base. One of our great 'background buildings', as the Times would say.

[londonlawyer]

I approached the Times Tower from the east on June 12, 2006 while the sun was setting, and for the first time, I noticed that the east and west facades do shimmer in sunlight as in the renderings. The building looked superb!

[CARLOS]

today june 13, 2006
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/2006/CIMG0094.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/2006/CIMG0095.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/2006/CIMG0096.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/2006/CIMG0097.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/2006/CIMG0099.jpg

[ablarc]

Definitely shimmers.

[krulltime]

TIMES TOWER FILLING UP
BIG LAW FIRM IS LATEST PROSPECT, EYES 20-YEAR LEASE


http://www.nypost.com/photos/comm061406036.jpg
LEGAL EAGLES: A second high-profile
law firm is close to inking a lease for
several floors in the Renzo Piano-
designed New York Times tower.


Lois Weiss
June 14, 2006

THE New York Times Building at 620 Eighth Ave. is on a roll and close to landing another big name law firm to its roster.

Covington & Burling is reviewing a lease for about 160,000 feet on floors 39 through 43.

Sources said the 20-year pact will include options for floors 44 and 45.

Studley Chairman Mitch Steir, with David Goldstein, is leading a gaggle of brokers representing Covington & Burling, which would relocate from 1330 Sixth Ave.

A CB Richard Ellis team lead by Tri-State CEO Mary Ann Tighe and Howard Fiddle are representing developer Forest City Ratner.

None of the players would comment on the deal.

Last week, Forest City said it would buy out its partner, ING, for the 700,000 feet above the Times headquarters.

Forest City will then control floors 29 through 52 and the 24,000 feet of ground floor retail.

The law firm Seyfarth Shaw has already grabbed 100,000 feet on floors 31, 32 and 33 for the next 17 years.


Copyright 2006 NYP Holdings, Inc.

[londonlawyer]

Based upon the stellar activity in this building, 505 5th, and the BofA, it seems that the time is ripe for speculative office construction! Obviously, a bank couldn't lend to any schlep for a spec. project, but with an entity with a proven track record for success (e.g., FCRC, Durst, Zeckendorf, Macklowe, Kipp-Stawski, etc.) it's a no lose proposition.

[lofter1]

And great to see that "Mary Poppins" is moving into the nabe ...

[jeffpark]

in regards to "505 Fifth"
is it the office part 100-fully leased?

[LeCom]

June 14, 2006

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1762/dsc01905nyttucjun06nightoriont.jpg

[RS085]

yo lecom, its spook, nice shot.

this is also my aim name if u wanna hit me up. i gotta head into the city tomorrow so ill get some pics if i can find my cam.

[LeCom]

thanks spook

[lofter1]

They have started to install the exterior lighting ... three small spot lights (now bright yellow) can be seen attached to the cross beams on the lower floors of the "bump-out" section on the 40th St. facade. They are aimed diagonally towards the section with the "X" cross-braces.

Today I asked a workman what they were and he said, "Lights -- they'll be going all the way up".

(Presumably they'll be painted grey.)

[TREPYE]

Looking at that picture the Orion looks as bland as a glass of warm water. What a crappy tower. I wish it were much shorter.




http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1762/dsc01905nyttucjun06nightoriont.jpg

[lofter1]

If that photo had been taken about 30 minutes earlier you would see what a shiny bright presence the Orion has in the sunlight.

[LeCom]

https://extranet.emporis.com/files/transfer/6/2006/06/467918.jpg

[lofter1]

gorgeous ^^

[TonyO]

NY Post

BUILDING HOPE FOR AILING TIMES

By JANET WHITMAN


June 21, 2006 -- As the New York Times continues to struggle amid weak advertising demand, business is looking up in a surprising corner: real estate.
The Gray Lady's much-maligned splurge on a new Midtown headquarters is proving a winning bet, the Times' two top execs boasted yesterday at a conference sponsored by the Newspaper Association of America.

"I'm happy to report - I know this may come as a shock to most of you - the headquarters is actually turning out to be an attractive financial investment," said Len Forman, chief finanical officer of the Times.

The building, located on Eighth Avenue between 40th and 41st streets, is slated to open on time and under budget, he said.

Also, with the real estate market heating up, the company now has an investment worth considerably more than the $600 million it plunked down for the first 28 floors of the 52-storey tower.

"We'll be looking at ways to realize the gains once the building is completed," Forman said.

Executives added that a series of layoffs over the past 18 months has freed up at least four floors that the company plans to rent out.

That would amount to more than 125,000 square feet for lease in a "very, very hot Midtown real-estate market," Forman said.

Times Chief Executive Janet Robinson said the property is so hot that About.com staffers will be staying in their less expensive downtown location, rather than moving into the new building.

The Times, which will get its name on the building, will own and operate the bottom floors, while developer Bruce Ratner will own the top floors.

Workers at the Gray Lady are slated to move into the new building in the spring of 2007. The old location on 43rd Street - home to the flagship paper since 1913 - was sold to Tishman Speyer Properties in 2004.

In New York Stock Exchange trading yesterday, shares fell 19 cents to $23.41.

[antinimby]

...an attractive financial investment," said Len Forman, chief finanical officer of the Times.Notice he is only referring to the investment being attractive but not necessarily the building. ;)

[RS085]

took nj transit in yesterday, walkin out onto 7th this thing pops right out.

no camera though. ****

[kliq6]

it sad that this building is the only thing that will make a huge profit for the NY Times, when the sublease that space that will help that quarters result. I always thought that based on what they have on 43rd street that they had taken to many floors.

[RS085]

after seeing this last week, im assuming its topped out. all thats left is the double floor/roof/crown.

[pianoman11686]

For some reason, the ceramic rods are not installed yet on the lower floors. I believe they are not supposed to be on the first floor, but from what I recall, the rods begin on the fifth floor. Maybe they're holding off with the installation until major construction is completed. In any case, the lower floors don't look as good right now.

[krulltime]

Another law firm headed to new Times headquarters;
324,000 square feet of space in tower now leased by lawyers


By Tom Acitelli
June 29, 2006

A Canadian law firm is the latest tenant -- and latest law firm -- to lease space in the new New York Times headquarters at 41st Street and Eighth Avenue. Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt, a Toronto-based business law firm, agreed on Thursday to take for 15 years 64,000 square feet of space on floors 36 and 37.

Developer Forest City Ratner, which is building the tower with the New York Times Company, announced the lease.

Forest City Ratner owns floors 29 through 52 in the 52-story tower. The Times owns the rest. Occupancy in the tower is expected by the middle of 2007.

The developer has already leased space in the tower to two other law firms. In the last month, Forest City Ratner has signed agreements with international law firm Covington & Burling for 160,000 square feet on five floors and with national law firm Seyfarth Shaw for 100,000 square feet on three floors.

Forest City Ratner was represented in the Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt deal by CB Richard Ellis. Newmark Knight Frank advised the law firm.


Copyright © 2003-2005 The Real Deal

[antinimby]

That shows how dumb these New York developers can be, waiting for the stupid signed tenant before building. Ha!
This damn building doesn't even have all its clothes on yet and they're getting leases left and right.
Hear that Milstein? And that goes for whichever idiot owns the flea market lot next to the Bush Tower as well.

[alibrot]

That shows how dumb these New York developers can be, waiting for the stupid signed tenant before building. Ha!
This damn building doesn't even have all its clothes on yet and they're getting leases left and right.
Hear that Milstein? And that goes for whichever idiot owns the flea market lot next to the Bush Tower as well.

first, i think milstein knows exactly what he's doing. he's gonna make 9 figures flipping the property.

developers are out to maximize profit, and minimize risk. investors want to know the building is viable before they finance it. an anchor tenant lowers that risk. i'm sure a lot of them remember the 80s, when anchor tenants were an afterthought, and this resulted in lenders owning more buildings than they knew what to do with. since it isnt a free for all these days, and experienced developers are building, projects wont fail like that. not sure why things havent changed. maybe its simply minimizing exposure on these super projects. REITs such as Vornado will buy whole neighborhoods (MSG area) but developers dont seem to be interested in that kind of exposure. We'll see what happens if office rents keep climbing.

i am not sure why a massive condo can be built, or huge hotel to condo conversions are done, but office space cannot be built without anchor tenants. maybe it's cause condos are sold off within a couple years of the project.

that said, gary barnett has a 30+ office tower going up on 46th street w/o a tenant.

[RS085]

http://www.tvn-ny.com/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Gebouwen%20New%20York/IMG_3186.JPG

http://www.tvn-ny.com/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Gebouwen%20New%20York/IMG_3187.JPG

http://www.tvn-ny.com/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Gebouwen%20New%20York/IMG_3185.JPG

[pianoman11686]

That's a great angle for the building. It looks slimmer and taller.

[lofter1]

Nice ^^^ In the first one you can see the res. tower going up on W. 31st (to the right of TT).

Pics taken from the FILM Building on 9th Ave.?????????

[lbjefferies]

Nice shots RS. This building looks attractive from afar, especially when juxtaposed against the horrific Hilton hotel behind it. Of course a pile of trash looks good when compared to that building.

But this may be one of the few skyscrapers in the world that looks best when viewed up close. This picture posted by Lecom a few days ago was breathtaking.



https://extranet.emporis.com/files/transfer/6/2006/06/467918.jpg


Its unfortunate that the light, transparant feeling this building is capable of and that this picture reveals doesn't work quite as well when viewed from a dsitance. Maybe it will come together once the spire is completed.

[antinimby]

first, i think milstein knows exactly what he's doing. he's gonna make 9 figures flipping the property.It could also be dumb luck. The economy might have tanked during that time period and the results would have been very different.

developers are out to maximize profit, and minimize risk. investors want to know the building is viable before they finance it. an anchor tenant lowers that risk. i'm sure a lot of them remember the 80s, when anchor tenants were an afterthought, and this resulted in lenders owning more buildings than they knew what to do with. since it isnt a free for all these days, and experienced developers are building, projects wont fail like that. not sure why things havent changed. maybe its simply minimizing exposure on these super projects. REITs such as Vornado will buy whole neighborhoods (MSG area) but developers dont seem to be interested in that kind of exposure. We'll see what happens if office rents keep climbing.This cautious set of statements could've been said 3 years ago. How much more should the rents climb before it is smart to build speculatively? When it's $ 500/sf, you'd probably be saying let's wait until 600. When it's 600, well, maybe we should wait for 700, you'll say. Your kind of thinking will never get anything done. In economics, there is such a thing as a cost of lost opportunity, this is the cost for not doing anything.

i am not sure why a massive condo can be built, or huge hotel to condo conversions are done, but office space cannot be built without anchor tenants. maybe it's cause condos are sold off within a couple years of the project.You sound like someone who would've told the Wright brothers that human contraptions can never fly because many others before them have tried and failed and so that's how it should be.
505 Fifth Ave. was built speculatively and Kipp-Stawski had no trouble signing up tenants to fill up their building even before it opened.

[Jasonik]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Jasonik/NYTTpano.jpg

[kliq6]

Milstein was not the idiot the NYS EDC was the idiot for selling the rights to a prime spot to a guy that hadnet built anything at that time in 15 years, now its close to 20 years. They should have taken Durst offer, which was just 8.5 million lower.

[alibrot]

You sound like someone who would've told the Wright brothers that human contraptions can never fly because many others before them have tried and failed and so that's how it should be.
505 Fifth Ave. was built speculatively and Kipp-Stawski had no trouble signing up tenants to fill up their building even before it opened.

haha, dont shoot the messanger. i said that i do not understand fully the difference of speculating on massive hotel condo conversions vs speculating on an office building, but that it could be that there is only so much sq ft in a massive office project that one developer wants exposure to. 505 5th is small - 275k sq feet vs anchor tenant projects - 1.5M NYT building and 2.5M BoA. Milstein's is 850k, but i dont think lack of an anchor tenant is all that derailed. he placed a bet on the price of land, and won big.

i am well aware of opportunity costs, but there are many holes in the ground in nyc because developers think the best opportunity has yet to arrive.

[JMGarcia]

It usually isn't the developer but the banks that lend the developer the money to build that have strict lending requirements including pre-leased space.

[GLNY]

Nice pictures, but where's the "shimmer" in this "jewel"? I suppose the photographer was working outside the 20-minute period prior to sundown.

Daylight offers a more forbidding perspective suggesting stacked embrasures in a blockhouse. Brutal.

[pianoman11686]

From www.therealdeal.net:

June 30, 2:05 pm

Topping out of new Times building delayed

The July 5 topping-out ceremony for the new New York Times headquarters at 41st Street and Eighth Avenue has been postponed. Forest City Ratner, the developer building the tower with the New York Times Company, said on Friday afternoon that ongoing labor negotiations with Local 14, the Operating Engineers Union, had caused the postponement. The topping-out will be rescheduled, Forest City Ratner said.

By Tom Acitelli

[jeffpark]

i am sorry Bruce but the building looks like CRAP

[NYguy]

JULY 2, 2006

The tower nears its peak on the skyline...

http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856300/medium.jpg_http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856304/medium.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856300/large.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856305/large.jpg


Through the signature of the GE Building...

http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856315/medium.jpg_http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856317/medium.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/62856315/large.jpg

[krulltime]

^ Nice shots! What building where you at?

[stache]

30 Rock, yes?

[NYguy]

30 Rock, yes?

Correct. I was in the area, and the Top of the Rock beckoned...

[ablarc]

That must be the "E" in "GE." What a weak, sorry logo that is, compared with yesterday's commanding R C A .

[lofter1]

so true ^^

[kz1000ps]

I've always about the same with the Pan Am sign versus today's MetLife. The font of Pan Am's was somehow much cooler.

[lofter1]

PAN AM much classier ...

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID030-Pan_Am_Bldg.jpg

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/030-metlife.jpg

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID030.htm

[lofter1]

Original RCA so much better than the current GE ...

http://www.nycpostcards.net/images/hoperock.jpg

http://www.nycpostcards.net/images/hoperock1.jpg

http://www.nycpostcards.net/hope_postcards_rockefeller_center.htm

[Drexel]

What is the building that is being built directly west of the Empire State Building...it shows up in the previous pictures? It looks like its about 50 stories tall and is under construction.....

[ManhattanKnight]

^You've probably spotted 125 West 31st Street (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3321).

[pianoman11686]

Taken today (7/9/06):

http://images1.snapfish.com/34756%3C%3B66%7Ffp33%3B%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A %3B%3EWSNRCG%3D32338%3B%3B%3A55627nu0mrj

[Dagrecco82]

What a handsome-looking building!

[NYatKNIGHT]

7/3

http://www.pbase.com/image/63109530.jpg

[ZippyTheChimp]

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1289/nytimes27c8in.th.jpg (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nytimes27c8in.jpg) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3051/nytimes28c1of.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nytimes28c1of.jpg) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3796/nytimes29c6ml.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nytimes29c6ml.jpg) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1251/nytimes30c5jx.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nytimes30c5jx.jpg)

[lofter1]

What the heck is that cinderblock thing in the foreground of the 2nd picture?

A new McSam Hotel development :confused:

[pianoman11686]

GlobeSt.com (http://www.globest.com/news/629_629/newyork/147316-1.html)

Last updated: July 13, 2006 01:04pm

New York Times Tops Tower

By Tom Sosnowski

NEW YORK CITY-The New York Times Building received its final beam today, completing the steel frame of the 52-story, 1.6-million-sf tower under construction at the junction of Eight Avenue and 41st Street. The beam was signed by the construction workers who took part in the building, as well as executives from co-owners Forest City Ratner Cos. and the New York Times.
FCRC owns 700,000 sf of the building, which includes floors 28 though 52 as well as 21,000 sf of ground-floor retail space. The Times owns and occupies the rest of the building, which will serve as its corporate headquarters.

“So far we are about 50% leased right now, with a lot of interest,” MaryAnne Gilmartin, executive VP of commercial and residential development for FCRC, tells GlobeSt.com. She adds that the pricing at the top of the building is in the $95-per-sf range. Key tenants already onboard are law firms Covington & Burling (160,000 sf); Seyfarth Shaw (100,000); and Osler, Hoskins & Hardcourt (64,000 sf).

Copyright © 2006 ALM Properties, Inc.

[sfenn1117]

Still no word on whether the crown has been nixed or not.

[Dagrecco82]

I hope not, the crown will help it push through that plateau.

[Citytect]

The crown will be built. The rooftop garden will not. There propably won't be an article stating 'Yes, NY Times crown is a go' because it's not news. The crown was never in question.

[sfenn1117]

Since the crown is a mere extension of the glass facade, I assume work won't begin on it until the entire tower is fully cladded?

[mgp]

The crown will definitely built. The rooftop garden will likely be built as an amenity to whomever leases the top floor.

[krulltime]

I really hope they do the rooftop garden. That will be nice. It will be visible from the Empire State building. I would bring my binoculars.

[RS085]

courtesy of chad ssc 7/4:

http://static.flickr.com/53/188839312_8ff24687e5_b.jpg

[alibrot]

What the heck is that cinderblock thing in the foreground of the 2nd picture?

A new McSam Hotel development :confused:

lofter, looks like that cinderblock deal an upgraded apartment building thats taking some time, but coming along (the arrow points to it). It's right next to a huge plot on 10th ave between 37th and 38th. Notice the 3 windows in the back. The 3 buildings marked with a X have already been demolished and there will probably be ~500 rentals built on the site.

http://www.adam2000.com/wired/newplot2.jpg

[stache]

Is that the block in the foreground where they have the Portobello flea market?

[alibrot]

the flea market is one block north of the block in the foreground..on 39th street

[lofter1]

... looks like that cinderblock deal an upgraded apartment building thats taking some time, but coming along (the arrow points to it).

DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?passdocnumber=1&passjobnumber=103347870&requestid=3) seems to indicate that it's 446 W. 38th, a lot that's ~ 25' x 98':


Job Description:FILING FOR ZONING AND CODE APPROVAL OF THREE STORY VERTICAL ENLARGEMENT OF EXISTING 5 STORY BUILDING. Building Dimension:
No. Stories: 7
Height: 71
Dwelling Units: 4
Total Gross Area of Building: 11,939 Sq. Ft.

[LeCom]

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/5825/pict0048nyttucjul06tothewestlookingupsmallvv5.jpg

One of the x-beams waiting on the truck
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1954/pict0049nyttucjul06beamssmallhf4.jpg

[alibrot]

DOB (http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/JobsQueryByNumberServlet?passdocnumber=1&passjobnumber=103347870&requestid=3) seems to indicate that it's 446 W. 38th, a lot that's ~ 25' x 98':




Job Description:FILING FOR ZONING AND CODE APPROVAL OF THREE STORY VERTICAL ENLARGEMENT OF EXISTING 5 STORY BUILDING. yep, thats whats going on. the new facade looks great too...once its done and unveiled it will be quite nice. i dont know what they will do with the side, as another building will be adjacent to it eventually.

[pianoman11686]

http://images1.snapfish.com/34763%3C948%7Ffp33%3B%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A%3 B%3EWSNRCG%3D323394%3B478%3A69nu0mrj

[kz1000ps]

^ What a putrid base on that Westin.

Taken by The Cheat (SSP) on the 16th. His original caption was "hot enough for ya?"

http://www.svmetro.com/photos/nyc-2006-07/weehawken-nyt.jpg

Taken by Giovanni Sasso (SSP) also on the 16th

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/391/nycnytuc2ku6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5514/nycnytuc1vs9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

^ Impressive

[pianoman11686]

Thanks for including those. I've never seen the Times from that perspective in the 2nd pic. I'm guessing it's from an upper floor on a 6th avenue residential somewhere in the 30's. Also, it's always nice to see it in relation to the Orion to get a sense of how truly massive this building is.

[kz1000ps]

I asked Gio over at SSP where he took them from just a bit ago, so we'll see. But as you said, it is intersting to see it's relation to the Orion. Aerial shots are probably the best thing out there, but shots from this level are almost even more fascinating to take in.

[Dagrecco82]

Is that the double mechanical floor in those pics? So the curtain wall will rise from that floor?

[kz1000ps]

It looks that way.

One more from SSP, again by The Cheat, July 12th.
Hazy humid canyon..

http://www.svmetro.com/photos/nyc-2006-07/nyt-3.jpg

[pianoman11686]

Time for some close-ups. The lowrise portion:

http://images1.snapfish.com/34764%3A496%7Ffp339%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A%3B% 3EWSNRCG%3D3233964756%3B77nu0mrj


http://images1.snapfish.com/34764%3A496%7Ffp339%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A%3B% 3EWSNRCG%3D3233964756%3B78nu0mrj


http://images1.snapfish.com/34764%3A496%7Ffp343%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A%3B% 3EWSNRCG%3D3233964756%3B7%3Anu0mrj


The northwest corner of the tower:

http://images1.snapfish.com/34764%3A496%7Ffp343%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A%3B% 3EWSNRCG%3D323396476%3B827nu0mrj

[Muscatinho]

I was lucky enough to take a tour of the building July 14, 2006 (I know someone who works at the Times).
The first one is of the future lobby (facing Eighth Ave.):
2083
The second faces north from the 52nd floor:
2085
Facing south (duh...):
2086
I love this picture of the Empire State:
2087
The abyss over the edge when they opened the gate. I didn't want to get too close!
2088

2089

The aluminum underfloor on the 52nd floor:
2090

I love the view of the Westin Hotel through the mesh in the elevator going down in the next two pictures.

2091

2092

2084

2085

2086

Hope you enjoy these. I've got plenty more but I've hit my limit for attachments. I've also been taking pictures of the building and the area since 2000 from a rooftop on 39th and Ninth. I'll try to post them as well as soon as I learn how to manage the posting limits.

[kz1000ps]

Yowza - what a great first post! Welcome aboard, Muscatinho. The pics of the Empire State Building and Jersey City have a classy classic vibe to them - very nice.

And what a great 25 hours it's been for photos of this building, in quantity and quality.

[lofter1]

Time for some close-ups. The lowrise portion ...

Nice ...

Those just might stifle the complainers who've said the low-rise section looks like a parking garage.

[lofter1]

I was lucky enough to take a tour of the building ...

More luck to ya ... Thanks for the great pics.

Unfortunate for NY Times how 1 Penn Plaza obliterates downtown.

But that view of the ESB -- mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[kz1000ps]

Those just might stifle the complainers who've said the low-rise section looks like a parking garage.

I don't know. I saw it in person with Brooklyn Rider and we both had the same negative impressions on it..

And what's with the rust?

[Muscatinho]

Now that I understand how the attachments limits work, here are a few more pictures, this time of the interior on the lower floors.

First picture is of the fifth floor, I think:

2093

This is another view of the Westin, this time through the (dirty) window on a lower floor:

2094

This is the fourteenth floor, where the cafeteria will be:

2095

The next four pictures are of the underfloor, which has apparently been the subject of some discussion on this forum. My understanding (but I didn't really focus on the explanation when it was given) is that all plumbing, A/C, is in the underfloor, which is 18-24 inches high (you can see what it looks like in the second picture below). The windows are flush with the underfloor, i.e., visually floor to ceiling.

2096

2097

2098

2100

The last two pictures are from the roof of my apartment building at 39th and Ninth, taken right after the tour on July 14th:

2101

2102

I have a collection of views from that perch dating back to 2000 when the Westin hotel was being built, including monthly (approximately) pictures taken of the NYT building as it's gone up. I'll post a selection if there's an interest.

[lofter1]

How did you find the experience of looking out through the windows / rods?

On the office floors does it feel open? Or does the curtain wall of rods create an enclosed effect?

And how is it looking through the windows that have a completely covered rod-screen?

Finally -- any pics of the views towards the Hudson / NJ from the upper floors?

[Stern]

Even if the NYTIMES Building is a stunner from the outside, it'll be form in the face of function as this view is needlessly blocked...

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2094&d=1153281952

[lofter1]

If you look at Moscatinho's 8th & 9th shots (full building shots) it seems that particular "blocked' view is only at the edge of the curtain rod facade on each floor -- and other than what seems to be complete "rod coverage" on the lower mid-block section / (possibly) the tower cafeteria floor there aren't large expanses where the views are similarly obstructed by the rods.

[Stern]

If you look at Moscatinho's 8th & 9th shots (full building shots) it seems that particular "blocked' view is only at the edge of the curtain rod facade on each floor -- and other than what seems to be complete "rod coverage" on the lower mid-block section / (possibly) the tower cafeteria floor there aren't large expanses where the views are similarly obstructed by the rods.

Okay... Those shots look just like the renderings, which I can assure you is nothing new to me. I'm not exactly sure what your point is as that wont change the view of the second shot. The only view that seems to be unobstructed by bars (more accurate description) will be the executives corner office.

[Muscatinho]

http://windows.lbl.gov/comm_perf/newyorktimes.htm

Sorry if you've seen this link already but it seems to me that it addresses most of your questions/issues about lighting and functionality.

Check out these images of what the window system looks like (taken from http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID125C.htm):

2103

2104

My experience in the building was that while it wasn't exactly a "floating in the air" experience as would be the case if it were clear glass, it was quite airy. Notwithstanding the single picture I posted which was far from typical (I posted it because I liked the "arty" view of the Westin), there is plenty of clear glass for views.

As the info in my first link indicates, there were many ergonomic and energy saving issues addressed by the system that was ultimately developed for the NYT building. I don't know if they will achieve what they attempted to achieve when the building is finished but I have no reason at this point to doubt it. As for the subjective sensation of the space, I did not experience the rods as constraining in an unpleasant way -- but don't forget the interior is completely unfinished and it's very unfair to come to any conclusions yet.

[Jake]

^I loved the Trade Center dearly but the shitty little windows were unbearable, looks like NYT might be heading in the same direction.

[Stern]

^I loved the Trade Center dearly but the shitty little windows were unbearable, looks like NYT might be heading in the same direction.

Excellent observation. The World Trade Center had limited visibility because of structural considerations, the NYTIMES for an expensive climatic experiment.

[lofter1]

... the shitty little windows were unbearable, looks like NYT might be heading in the same direction.

Nothing that Muscatinho wrote after actually being in the Times building backs up your supposition.

[Jake]

^I'm saying that based on the photos. From what I understand about the system is that these "smart blinds" will essentially adjust to the time of day, right? That tells me 2 things, one, that constantly changing rods will take away the "what's ahppening outside while sipping coffee" to the "what are the rods doing" and two, that you will essentially never have a true unobstructed view outside.

Now I thought there for a second that one of the reasons for having a Manhattan skyscraper was the panoramic view outside, which in this case seems sub-par. To add insult to injury you can't even roll them up as you would with conventional blinds.

The Trade Center for example was by far the worst building to work in that I've seen. Disregarding the fact that you had to take multiple elevators to get anywhere there was the simple dreadful interior design of the place. If you go to 30 Hudson they have open space and a great open view out the windows. Even the best offices in the Trade Center had windows that are no larger than my bathroom window which gave the whole place a kind of a "closet" feeling.

It's true that Times has horizontal rods vs vertical at the towers but the basic principle still applies. Buildings with obstructed views are not great places to be in.

We'll see, maybe the Times will indeed get higher worker efficiency and maybe everyone will feel better thanks to this system BUT any skyscraper fan who likes to sneak a peak at the skyline outside every now and then might be in for a big dissapointment.

[lofter1]

The rods don't move ...

There will be internal shades that go up and down.

[Muscatinho]

Jake, ss Lofter just said, the rods don't move. If you read the link I provided (http://windows.lbl.gov/comm_perf/newyorktimes.htm), you'll see the following:
"low-iron, water-white, double-pane spectrally selective glass forms the inner wall of the façade. Placed 1.5 feet off the face of this glazed façade are horizontal exterior ceramic rods spaced at variable center-to-center distances. The rods are 5 feet long and 1-5/8 inches in diameter. They are tightly spaced at the spandrel and open as they rise to eye level. These rods shade the upper and lower portions of the main glazed facade on each floor. A vision portion of the window wall from 2.9 to 6.6 feet above the floor is left open for view for a standing or seated occupant."

I also find it puzzling that people on this forum insist on saying that the views are obstructed. In fact, the goals of the shade design -- NOT the rod design (because the rods only obstruct the top and bottom of the windows are:

"The shades and shade controls scope of work is based upon the philosophy that occupants of commercial office buildings prefer natural light to electric light. The shade system goals for The New York Times Building are:
Maximize natural light
Maximize occupant connectivity with the outdoors, i.e. external views
Intercept sunlight penetration so as to avoid direct solar radiation on the occupants
Maintain a glare free environment
Provide occupant manual override capability
On any given façade the shades are as a general rule expected to be controlled together to the same bottom-of-hem height The overall intent is to keep the shades up as much of the time as is possible without causing thermal or visual discomfort. Thermal comfort is assured by solar tracking and the geometry of the external sun screens. Visual comfort is assured by managing the luminance on the window wall. The manual override system has been specified based upon post occupancy evaluations of office building occupants with automated shade systems. The number one recorded complaint in these studies was the inability of an occupant to operate a shade or group of shades when necessary." (Same source as above).


I currently work on a trading floor with two story high floor to ceiling glass window walls. The views of the outside can be nice (I happen to sit next to the window) but it's a constant hassle with heat, excessive glare from the sun, etc., all the issues that Piano and the Times team tried to address. There's always someone on the floor who wants the shades down while others want them up. I'd trade for an office or a seat on the floor at the NYT building any day.

[lofter1]

Three cheers to you, Muscatinho, for the clarification.

[Ninjahedge]

i was wondering what they were. It seems like they are to try to block and diffuse some of the direct sunlight so it is not like a greenhouse during daylight hours while at the same time not providing 100% occlusion of what it is blocking....

I think the idea is an interesting one, but I do not care for the look.

Personal opinion.

[aural iNK]

The views of the outside can be nice (I happen to sit next to the window) but it's a constant hassle with heat, excessive glare from the sun, etc., all the issues that Piano and the Times team tried to address.

I think you made a good point here and I have to agree. The function of this building is to offer a healthy and enjoyable work environment that will boost morale and productivity amongst employees. It wasn't designed to be a platform to simply take in the skyline. If the design works, then I believe this system is a great solution. A few rods are much better than the drywall that I look at every day, that's for sure.

In my opinion, the adjustable blinds are a nice touch as well. I highly doubt that anyone is constantly adjusting the blinds in most offices to allow the most acceptable amount of light at any given time. In the long run, you'll probably be able to see out more often than if stationary blinds were in place.

[TallGuy]

Kudos to the architects if the rods work. If I worked there though, the bar-effect would make me feel like I was in jail!

Also, How do they intend to clean them and the windows externally?

I wonder if the bars will be subject to birds sitting on them and leaving droppings that will need to be cleaned. At least they should prevent Al-Queda connected birds from flying into the windows.

[TREPYE]

Also, How do they intend to clean them and the windows externally?

I wonder if the bars will be subject to birds sitting on them and leaving droppings that will need to be cleaned.

YIKES!! :eek: I haven't thought of that, good observation TallGuy. I could just see the masses of birds doing their business on these rods. LOL, this thing may end up looking like a giant pigeon bathroom. At least they will have the newspaper nearby to keep them entertained. Walking on street level peds will be like sitting ducks.

[Stern]

YIKES!! :eek: I haven't thought of that, good observation TallGuy. I could just see the masses of birds doing their business on these rods. LOL, this thing may end up looking like a giant pigeon bathroom. At least they will have the newspaper nearby to keep them entertained. Walking on street level peds will be like sitting ducks.

It seems like this building is better suited as a concept as its supposed innovations will backfire in a tough New York environment.

[lofter1]

I wonder if the bars will be subject to birds sitting on them ...

Hmmmm ... the only place where there is enough space for a bird to sit will be at the top rod at the lower part of the window openings ...

Could be a very nice effect for those inside ... little birdies lined up in a row.

The potential poop problem is a new twist ;)

[TallGuy]

Hmmmm ... the only place where there is enough space for a bird to sit will be at the top rod at the lower part of the window openings ...

Could be a very nice effect for those inside ... little birdies lined up in a row.

The potential poop problem is a new twist ;)


Not to be gross, but a bird did its' business on the roof of my car 3 years ago while I assume I was doing highway speed. It created a 6 inch streak, and after baking in the sun until I discovered it, became quite baked on. After numerous car washes, scrubbing attemps, rainy days, etc, the darn thing is still visible.

Even if the birds only use the top bars on some of the windows, this stuff can accumulate and be resistant to most cleaning methods. On a normal building you see the cleaning scaffolds, etc. How do you do this efficiently with NYT? Do they remove the bar panels periodically? I would think you would almost have to hand scrub them. This HAD to be considered, you would think.

[lofter1]

It seems like this building is better suited as a concept as its supposed innovations will backfire in a tough New York environment.

You might be right. but extensive testing / modeling was done regarding the design -- although the experts admit that modeling is difficult due to all of the variables ...

An article from a couple of years ago:

CURTAIN WALLS

Glass Facades Go Beyond Skin Deep
Designers stress the importance of integrating with building systems

Construction.com (http://enr.construction.com/features/buildings/archives/030210.asp)
By Joann Gonchar, with Peter Reina
October 10, 2003

Product developers, building owners and designers are taking a new look at high-performance glass facades as key in creating buildings with improved access to daylight, better indoor air quality and improved energy efficiency. But a facade that helps improve a building's interior environment and limits its loss of energy is not enough, say some sources. A building's skin should be a power generator rather than an energy liability.

"Although glass curtain walls are becoming more and more thermally efficient," says Gregory Kiss, a founder of Kiss + Cathcart Architects, Brooklyn, the goal of creating an energy-conserving facade is one of "diminishing returns." His firm has designed a hypothetical 150-story tower to be built in New York City in 2020 with a skin that would be a source of power. The structure, clad entirely in photovoltaic (PV) panels, would generate 60% of the building's electricity requirements. Wind turbines enclosed in PV louvers would supply the rest.

Although the 2020 tower may seem more like a fantastic vision, Kiss maintains that photovoltaic technology "is ready for prime time." Even now, the least-expensive building-integrated panels cost about $12 per sq ft. "There are many more expensive cladding materials," he says. And despite the fact that many recent high-profile projects use PVs to generate only a small portion of their total power requirements, building-integrated photovoltaics could be common-place in three to five years, he predicts.

"The number-one limitation is education," Kiss says.

Scientists and manufacturers are also looking beyond photovoltaics to the next generation of variable materials. These so-called "smart" glazings dynamically respond to exterior conditions to control daylighting and solar heat gain. The most promising of such switchable technologies for use in buildings is electrochromic glazing, which undergoes a reversible change in optical properties when exposed to light, according to Stephen Selkowitz, head of the building technologies department at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, Calif. The lab is currently using room mock-ups to discover how best to optimize lighting levels under various conditions.

But an energy-efficient building envelope isn't just about the materials. "Limiting solar and thermal transfer requires integrating the facade system with the lighting, mechanical, heating and cooling systems," says facade engineer Maurya McClintock, an Arup associate principal in San Francisco. "If designers look solely to curtain walls as a solution for comfort and energy consumption, they will never achieve the synergy that is possible with integrated design," says Stephen Lee, a professor at the Center for Building Performance and Diagnostics at Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh.

LAGTIME

The U.S. lags Europe in the development of advanced building systems and high-performance facades, due in part to lower energy costs.

Curtain wall technology in the U.S. "is about 10 to 15 years behind," says Alistair Lazenby, technical director of curtain wall contractor Schmidlin A.G., Aesch, Switzerland.

http://enr.construction.com/images/030210-26A.jpg
(Rendering courtesy of Kiss + Cathcart Architects)
POWER PLAY The building can be an energy source
instead of a liability.

Recent legislation, aimed at cutting greenhouse gas emissions in line with commitments to the Kyoto Accord, will likely increase scrutiny of building envelope performance in Europe, says Cameron Johnstone, a lecturer at the Energy Systems Research Unit at Scotland's Strathclyde University. The directive, enacted last month, applies to renovations and new construction and requires governments to introduce standardized methods for calculating building energy use by 2006. With buildings said to account for a third of energy use by European Union countries, immediate and full implementation of the legislation would allow the EU to achieve, within 10 years, its full Kyoto goal of cutting emissions by 8% below 1990 levels, according to some estimates.

Double-skin facades are a popular approach to all-glass building envelopes in Europe, especially in Germany, where regulations mandate that office workers have access to daylight and fresh air, according to John Durbrow, senior vice president of architect Murphy/Jahn. The Chicago-based firm designed a 40-story, double-skin headquarters building for Deutsche Post in Bonn that was occupied in late December.

The building's envelope consists of an outer layer of laminated glass and an interior layer of double-glazed glass with operable windows, separated by a 1.7-meter gap. Blinds between the two layers, controlled by a building management system, provide protection from solar gain. During the cooling season, warm air is drawn into the gap and purged through outlets located every nine stories. Cooler air on the inside of the blinds is drawn into the office space through fan-coil boxes that further lower the air temperature.

Radiant cooling in the floor slab helps lower the room temperature more before the air is exhausted into an atrium space. During the heating season, the system acts as a buffer, tempering the outdoor air before it is drawn into the offices.

Deutsche Post's double-skin system, along with its integrated approach to heating and cooling, could cut energy use by 50% compared to a building with a single facade and central air conditioning, says Matthias Schuler, principal of Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, the project's Stuttgart-based climate consultant.

Despite the expected effectiveness of this deep double-skin system, it soon could be replaced by one that is less real estate and capital intensive. Murphy/Jahn plans to use a double-skin system that is only 26 cm deep for a speculative 200-m-tall office tower in Frankfurt set to begin construction in 2005. The goal is to achieve "the same efficiency in a thinner package," says Durbrow.

There are signs that such systems have a future in the U.S., even though low energy costs seem to provide little incentive for owners. In Philadelphia, contractors are nearing completion of a $16.5-million building for the University of Pennsylvania's School of Engineering and Applied Science that is clad with a double-skin system that has a 4-in.-wide cavity between an external double-glazed unit and an interior single-glazed unit.

The architects chose the system in order to maximize the penetration of natural light into the 48,000-sq-ft, six-story building located on a tight site surrounded by several existing structures, while maintaining the thermal comfort of the users. "The university didn't want to fry the occupants in the summer or freeze them in the winter," says Richard Maimon, an associate at KieranTimberlake Associates LLP, Philadelphia.

The unitized wall is tied to the building's mechanical system and helps maintain comfort by using the cavity between the inner and outer glazing as a plenum through which return room air is circulated. This keeps the building's perimeter warm in the winter and cool in the summer. The cavity also houses adjustable blinds that keep out solar radiation.

Permasteelisa SpA, Treviso, Italy, the manufacturer and installer of the panels used at the University of Pennsylvania, sees an expanding market in the U.S. The company will start installing a similar panel system later this month at a Skidmore Owings & Merrill-designed 14-story office building in Boston that will serve as the U.S. headquarters for Toronto-based Manulife Financial, says Roberto Bicchiarelli, executive vice president of Permasteelisa Cladding Technologies, Windsor, Conn. Permasteelisa does not expect much demand for this product from developers or speculative builders since it costs about 20% more than a high-quality standard curtain wall system. "The wall system has a medium- to long-term payback," says Bicchiarelli. which works for owners who occupy buildings for many years.

LEEDING THE WAY

One factor nurturing this embryonic interest in high-performance facades is the Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design rating system, known as LEED. The performance-based system, devised by the U.S. Green Buildings Council, Washington, D.C., is designed to evaluate the environmental impact of commercial and institutional buildings and provide a standard for what constitutes a sustainable building.

Seattle is one of several municipal and federal owners that require some level of LEED certification. Because of this mandate, convincing city officials to sacrifice the space required for a 30-in.-deep, 12-story, double-skin facade at the recently completed $70-million Seattle Justice Center was not difficult, according to designers. Although it cost roughly $320,000 more than a traditional facade, "it was an easy sell because the city was motivated by LEED," says Seattle-based Rick Zieve, design principal at architecture firm NBBJ. The cavity, which is independent of the building's mechanical system, helps maintain comfortable perimeter temperatures by trapping solar heat and expelling it through louvers at the top of the wall.

Little post-construction data is available to demonstrate how well double-skin facades work in conserving energy.

Anecdotal evidence suggests they work well. In 1999, Telus, a Canadian telecommunications firm, wrapped an existing concrete framed building in downtown Vancouver, B.C., in a new double-glazed facade as part of a $13-million renovation designed by local architecture firm Busby & Associates. The 42-in. gap between the new "jacket" and the existing building acts as a thermal buffer in much the same way as the double-skin facade at the Seattle Justice Center. On one recent 15°F day, air was evacuated from the top of the cavity at 85°F. "We were throwing energy away because we were creating too much," says Doug Green, special projects manager for Telus.

Sources stress the importance of having the curtain wall contractor's input early in a building project. "The supplier will have a good handle on the manufacturing process as well as an understanding of what can and cannot be achieved," says Arup's McClintock. Although she cautions that the contractor should not be considered a substitute for a facade engineer who can provide an impartial view of components and systems.

As the complexity of wall systems escalates, unusual procurement methods intended to help the owner obtain engineering feedback from the curtain wall contractor are becoming more common. For challenging projects, award of the curtain wall contract before hiring the general contractor is not unheard of, says Lou Niles, president of Benson, a Portland, Ore.-based curtain wall contractor.

http://enr.construction.com/images/030210-29B.jpg
(Photo courtesy of Renzo Piano Building Workshop/ Fox & Fowle Architects)

Benson is competing for the 51-story New York Times building. Its skin will include a screen of horizontal 11?-in.-dia ceramic rods that will start at the second floor and extend beyond the top floor. This "veil" is intended to reflect atmospheric conditions but will also act as a shading device, says Dan Kaplan, principal of Fox & Fowle Architects, New York.

http://enr.construction.com/images/030210-29A.jpg
(Photo courtesy of Benson)
ELABORATE SCREEN Mockups of the
New York Times building's ceramic rod "veil"
informed the curtain wall bid documents.

This past summer, the New York Times project team gave four curtain wall contractors a stipend of $50,000 each to build a mockup of the facade. The mockup process allowed designers to incorporate the contractors' knowledge into the bid documents. "It gave us the benefit of a lot of different thinking and made us feel more certain about the budget," says Bob Sanna, executive vice president of Forest City Ratner Cos., the project's developer, along with the New York Times Co. The project team is now evaluating bids and expects to award the contract in March, in advance of selecting the construction manager, says Sanna.

http://enr.construction.com/images/030210-29C.jpg
(Drawing courtesy of Renzo Piano Building Workshop/ Fox & Fowle Architects)

The growing complexity of curtain walls is revealing the limitations of modeling tools used to optimize design and demonstrate code compliance. "It took us one month to show compliance with the energy code," says Gary Pomerantz, senior vice president, Flack & Kurtz, New York City. The firm is mechanical engineer for the New York Times project. "The three-dimensional skin [with its] moving and overlapping shadows made modeling difficult," he says.

Existing tools work well for modeling complex but conventional curtain walls, says Lawrence Berkeley's Selkowitz. In other words, curtain walls with many layers of glass and several coatings, use laminates or gas fills. But the tools do not reliably predict the performance of dynamic materials such as those that transmit or reflect light in a non-linear manner or systems that have between-pane air cavities. "When you introduce a prismatic daylight control layer or an automated venetian blind with a special reflective surface or a double facade with a complex air flow pattern, these systems are more difficult to model," says Selkowitz. His lab, which has developed much of the software that is in the public domain, is working to add these capabilities.

Stricter U.S. building codes could push more high-performance facades. In 1999, the Building Energy Standard for Buildings Except Low-Rise Residential Buildings, known as ASHRAE 90.1, was overhauled for the first time in a decade. It was revised again in 2001. So far, 13 states have adopted energy standards equal to or stricter than the 1999 version, says Joseph Derringer, chair of the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers Inc.'s building envelope subcommittee.

For envelope performance, the main difference between the most recent standards and the 1989 version is more rigorous code language, says Derringer. Although some observers believe that adopting the latest versions of 90.1 will discourage construction of glass buildings, he says the tougher standard "should instead mean more buildings with advanced glass systems."

http://enr.construction.com/images/_.gif
© 2004 The McGraw-Hill Companies - All Rights Reserved

[pianoman11686]

Well, a smooth surface like ceramic should be easier to clean than, for example, concrete, or even steel. I'll have to look through some of the earlier posts for any information on this. But getting back to the pigeon problem: aren't they mostly ground-dwellers, anyway?

[JMGarcia]

A friend of mine lives across the street from Piano's tower in Berlin at Potsdammer Platz that has a very, very similar facade treatment. Berlin conditions are just as bad as NY's weather wise, air quality wise, and with birds. They seem to have no problems keeping the facade and windows clean. The building is stunning and still looks like new.

The building, much like the NY Times, looks far, far, far better in person than it does in photographs.

http://www.arplus.com/archive/piano/images/berlin/arjan9935ap.jpghttp://www.foto-menges.de/singles/shop/bigpic/B580.jpg

[stache]

The building, much like the NY Times, looks far, far, far better in person than it does in photographs.


That's good news! So the tubes are ceramic?

[aural iNK]

I'd imagine we'd already be seeing initial signs of any potential problems due to birds and weathering as portions of the curtain wall have been assembled for months now. Looks clean to me.

[Outerbanks Lookout]

Sorry guys I am a little new here. Am I to understand that there is an additional 'veil' that is to go over the current facade, or aesthetically, have we arrived at the final product (or at least a little over half-way)???

[lofter1]

"Yep" to "final product" in terms of the ~ 1/2 facade so far erected

[Johnnyboy]

Quote:
From the Article 7 posts before

His firm has designed a hypothetical 150-story tower to be built in New York City in 2020 with a skin that would be a source of power. The structure, clad entirely in photovoltaic (PV) panels, would generate 60% of the building's electricity requirements. Wind turbines enclosed in PV louvers would supply the rest.


Wish construction of such a building does happen in NYC

[evil_synth]

Yes please. Except make it 2010. :)

[pianoman11686]

From Bryant Park:

http://images1.snapfish.com/34769%3C66%3A%7Ffp33%3B%3Enu%3D3247%3E4%3A5%3E9%3A %3B%3EWSNRCG%3D323397853349%3Bnu0mrj

[kz1000ps]

The Verizon Building almost looks art deco-ey in that picture.

[NYguy]

JULY 22, 2006

It has that towering effect...


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/64087355/medium.jpg_http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/64087360/medium.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/64087355/large.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/64087360/large.jpg

[finnman69]

I thought it was going to be much more white.

[lofter1]

methinks she's GREY ...

[stache]

Yes I vote for grey too.

[lofter1]

As the sun sets she looks a bit rosey, too.

[stache]

Those cross braces do a lot for the building -

[pianoman11686]

It's grey, and those pictures (no offense, NYguy, you don't control the weather) just don't do the building justice. It needs some sun. Then, it really sparkles.

[finnman69]

methinks she's GREY ...

sort of French Grey

I went by it tonight , it was cool how the sunset was passing through the screen. Only thing that bugs me is the screen seems kind of flat. Defintely interesting, not what i expected though.

[lofter1]

The windows are fantastically reflective in the afternoon sun ... but somehow very liquid.

Like up the tower is almost like looking across a lake on a calm day ...

[pianoman11686]

I walked by this morning, and saw some workers getting ready to hoist up this huge metal cylinder thing. I have no idea what it was. All I can think of is that it has something to do with the antenna. It was a big metal cylinder, at least 20 feet tall and probably 8-10 feet in diameter, with square sheets of metal melded on to the top and bottom. Any ideas?

[BrooklynRider]

I think the north and south facades with the cross-bracing and open windows on either side of the ceramic rods in the middle are much more attractive that the front (western facade) of the building. MUCH more attractive.

[RS085]

I walked by this morning, and saw some workers getting ready to hoist up this huge metal cylinder thing. I have no idea what it was. All I can think of is that it has something to do with the antenna. It was a big metal cylinder, at least 20 feet tall and probably 8-10 feet in diameter, with square sheets of metal melded on to the top and bottom. Any ideas?

probably constructing the spire.

[RandySavage]

In NYGUY's photos, is that "tab" at the top of the building (i) the last 4-5 floors being built or (ii) the frame for the crown/screen?

[Jake]

Some pics from Top of the Rock earlier today....NYC smog at its finest...

sorry about the tilt, my photos are always garbage without a tripod

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/JakeW16/PICT0054.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/JakeW16/PICT0055.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/JakeW16/PICT0075.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/JakeW16/PICT0076.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/JakeW16/PICT0077.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/JakeW16/PICT0079.jpg

[pianoman11686]

Thanks for the pics. A little off-topic but, what is that pile of horse dung sitting atop Ratner's Hilton? I've never noticed that before.

[ablarc]

Thanks for the pics. A little off-topic but, what is that pile of horse dung sitting atop Ratner's Hilton? I've never noticed that before.
Gadzooks, indeed! Is that intentional or did it plop from the sky?

[lofter1]

It's an ahtsy-fahtsy attempt to hide the water tank / mechanicals.

(Or someone had dinner with Kondylis and got to talking about ocean liners.)

[pianoman11686]

Oh, no, let's not bring that BS up again.

[lofter1]

They've installed the glass at street-level along the majority of the 8th Avenue side -- it's hidden behind the construction shed / fence but if you look around the gates near the corners you can see it. They've also started to install the framework for the street-level glass at the inset areas between the tower and the low-rise section on both 41st & 40th Sts.

[RS085]

ill be in the city later on, have to check it out.

[RS085]

whats going on at the top? are they gonna finish it once the cladding is done, or whats the deal?

[londonlawyer]

I went by this building at about 8:50 p.m., and the lights were on on the lower floors. IT LOOKS F.....ING AWESOME!!!! The shimmering qualities shown in the rendering must depict the night-time view. WOW!

[sfenn1117]

londonlawyer! you're back!

[pianoman11686]

Good to hear from you again, london. You just reminded me of something I noticed yesterday while passing by: some of the lower floors also looked to be fully furnished. Probably the new base for the construction managers.

[londonlawyer]

londonlawyer! you're back!

Thanks for the hearty welcome! I've been traveling a lot for work lately.

[londonlawyer]

Good to hear from you again, london...

Thanks, Pianoman!

[RS085]

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5100/times2ap8.jpg

[Jake]

^HOLY! wow, photo of the year! Great pic RS085.

May I ask what kind of camera do you use?

[lofter1]

Great shot -- taken from 1515 Broadway?

[kz1000ps]

Awesome shot. There's so many things great about it, but for me I most love Jersey City's skyline back there standing quietly against the sunset.

[Derek2k3]

It does look better in person...but not as great as I expected when I only knew the renderings.
http://static.flickr.com/60/208818208_cfdc2d05e4_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/85/208818213_d74765dc07_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/81/208818215_9d86ecc1fe_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/73/208818219_1794731c92_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/73/208818221_e3a7900489_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/60/208818204_34b06c638e_o.jpg
The Times with its ugly friends, Ivy, Presidential, & Orion.
6/8/06

[Derek2k3]

http://static.flickr.com/85/209275062_d63893310a.jpg

[panderson]

I walked by the building on Wednesday evening and the interior lights were on in two of the lower floors on the 40th Street side. The lights shining through the exterior rods gave the walls a cool three-dimensional texture -- I can't wait to see how it looks with more illumination.

On a related note: somebody posted a while back about the yellow exterior flood lights on the lower floors and wrote that one of the construction workers had said these would be installed all the way up. I don't see any more installed, and you'd think if they were going to install them it would be done in conjunction with the curtain wall installation and not afterwards.

[lofter1]

I posted that info about the exterior spot lights ... I agree that it seems odd that they haven't moved forward on that, but my sense is that there are a lot of tweaks that will be put into effect as this building moves towards completion. It could be that the lights so far installed were test versions and that they are re-evaluating the actual fixtures.

Walking by yesterday I saw that they are now installing the framework for glass on the two "bump-out" sections (on the north and south sides of the tower). Nice sleek high-tech stainless steel.

[lbjefferies]

I walked by the building on Wednesday evening and the interior lights were on in two of the lower floors on the 40th Street side. The lights shining through the exterior rods gave the walls a cool three-dimensional texture -- I can't wait to see how it looks with more illumination.

On a related note: somebody posted a while back about the yellow exterior flood lights on the lower floors and wrote that one of the construction workers had said these would be installed all the way up. I don't see any more installed, and you'd think if they were going to install them it would be done in conjunction with the curtain wall installation and not afterwards.


I walked by yesterday as well and came away with of several thoughts.

First, this building is going to be one of the most beautiful buildings in the world. New or old, lowrise or highrise, this tower will be among the greats in my eyes. I was in absolute awe.

Second, it is in an awful location. The only place to really get a good look at it as a whole (not too far away, not too close) is from the west side of 8th Ave between ~46 and 42. Just a terrible place to try and look at a building. With the porn shops, touristi, and crackheads; my instinct is to get away, not stand around and appreciate architecture. Maybe I could get a better view down a side street. Bad idea. I thought I saw a dead guy on 40th street across from the bus station. Alas, on more careful observation he was breathing :o . If they could move the NYTimes the west side of 6th ave between 39th and 40th, this building would have been even more amazing. Effect on the skyline be damned, this building is best viewed from close to medium distances.

Thirdly, there are spots where the ceramic rods are damaged and your eyes are drawn to these spots effortlessly. I am hoping this is due to wear and tear from the brutality of the construction process, and not an indication that these things are easily damaged. If the rods are easily damaged then thats going to be a major problem.

[Peakrate212]

location is not awful.......the idea is that the new building and investments will spur a revival of the area.

[lbjefferies]

location is not awful.......the idea is that the new building and investments will spur a revival of the area.

The best street-level view of the building comes from one of the busiest pedestrian walkways in the city. Regardless, the view will eventually be blocked by another building so it doesn't even matter.

Secondly, it is across the street from a bus station. A bus station. How much revival is possible with a massive BUS STATION across the street?

As I stated, the location is awful.

[lofter1]

Actually I've found that one of the best views is from the south side of 40th St. -- mid-block towards 7th Ave. -- in the mid to late afternoon when the sunlight is shimmering across the southern facade and you can see the light through the tower on the floors above. From that vantage point you also can see the full expanse of the east facade rising above the lower portion.

[lbjefferies]

Actually I've found that one of the best views is from the south side of 40th St. -- mid-block towards 7th Ave. -- in the mid to late afternoon when the sunlight is shimmering across the southern facade and you can see the light through the tower on the floors above. From that vantage point you also can see the full expanse of the east facade rising above the lower portion.


You are right. That is actually my favorite vantage point. But the building becomes partially obscured once you step back a ways and its tough to get a good look at the whole thing at once. I'm sure it's spectacular from the Hilton.

[GLNY]

Asset managers Legg Mason will take the top six floors and create a roof garden and conference center in Bruce Ratner's New York Times building, currently under construction.

The deal cements architect Renzo Piano's original vision for a lush garden on the top of the skyscraper. Forest City had left the fate of the garden up in the air, pending finding a tenant willing to pay for it.

[Stern]

Asset managers Legg Mason will take the top six floors and create a roof garden and conference center in Bruce Ratner's New York Times building, currently under construction.

The deal cements architect Renzo Piano's original vision for a lush garden on the top of the skyscraper. Forest City had left the fate of the garden up in the air, pending finding a tenant willing to pay for it.

Excellent news!

[evil_synth]

Asset managers Legg Mason will take the top six floors and create a roof garden and conference center in Bruce Ratner's New York Times building, currently under construction.

The deal cements architect Renzo Piano's original vision for a lush garden on the top of the skyscraper. Forest City had left the fate of the garden up in the air, pending finding a tenant willing to pay for it.

Definately redeems my opinion of the NY Times tower a bit. Awesome news.

[kz1000ps]

Photos taken by Fish from SSP on the 13th ... some of the best yet.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7591/timessqtower1xj5.jpg

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1117/timessqtower4zn7.jpg

[eddhead]

The best street-level view of the building comes from one of the busiest pedestrian walkways in the city. Regardless, the view will eventually be blocked by another building so it doesn't even matter.

Secondly, it is across the street from a bus station. A bus station. How much revival is possible with a massive BUS STATION across the street?

As I stated, the location is awful.

A lot of people would disagree with that especially in light of just how much the are has improved over the past 5-10 years. True, there is further room for improvement, but there is no reason to think it will not happen. The port authority needs to spruce up, but i keeping the faith!

[kliq6]

Legg Mason signs lease for NY Times building
by David Jones
Legg Mason will become the second-largest tenant in The New York Times building near Times Square when it opens in 2007, after signing a lease with Forest City Ratner Cos. for about 200,000 square feet.

The lease includes Legg Mason subsidiaries ClearBridge Advisors and Western Asset Management Co., which both have office space at 399 Park Ave., where asking rents in the area are $70 a square foot.

Asking rents at the new Times headquarters run anywhere from $80 to $100 a square foot.

Forest City owns 700,000 square feet, which includes floors 28 through 52 plus 21,000 square feet of ground level retail space. With this deal, the property owner has now leased 75% of its space. In May, law firm Seyfarth Shaw became the first tenant for the building at 620 Eighth Ave., at 41st street.

The New York Times owns and occupies the rest of the 1.6 million square foot building.

CB Richard Ellis began marketing the building, designed by Pritzker-Prize winning architect Renzo Piano, last year.

Baltimore-based Legg Mason, Pasadena, Calif,-based Western Asset and New York-based ClearBridge will occupy floors 45 through 50. Mr. Piano will design a rooftop conference center and garden for Western Asset on the 52nd floor.

Forest City Ratner also completed a previously announced deal to buy out its financial partner, ING Real Estate's interest in the building.

Forest City Ratner now owns and operates 35 properties in the New York area, comprising 4.4 million square feet of office space.

[kliq6]

The best street-level view of the building comes from one of the busiest pedestrian walkways in the city. Regardless, the view will eventually be blocked by another building so it doesn't even matter.

Secondly, it is across the street from a bus station. A bus station. How much revival is possible with a massive BUS STATION across the street?

As I stated, the location is awful.

The area will get better when 11 times square is built and the duane reade building/comedy club is redeveloped

[lbjefferies]

The area will get better when 11 times square is built and the duane reade building/comedy club is redeveloped


I agree the area will improve. I just think the hideous structure across eighth ave will be a major limiting factor in whatever revitalization is possible. Get rid of the bus station and put a park there and sky's the limit. Unforunately, that isn't going to happen for a long long time.

Yeah I suppose you could refurbish the station or build on top of it but it will always be a bus station.

[lbjefferies]

Photos taken by Fish from SSP on the 13th ... some of the best yet.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7591/timessqtower1xj5.jpg




That is a fantastic shot.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I agree the area will improve. I just think the hideous structure across eighth ave will be a major limiting factor in whatever revitalization is possible. Get rid of the bus station and put a park there and sky's the limit. Unforunately, that isn't going to happen for a long long time.

Yeah I suppose you could refurbish the station or build on top of it but it will always be a bus station.Where do you propose to put it?

[kliq6]

if they replaced that green wall on the Port with a glass facade and built a tower on top, then it would, in my opinion look much much better. Ive heard PA is again talking about 20 times square coming back

[ZippyTheChimp]

A peek at the street level glass.
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/3852/nytimes31cyl5.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nytimes31cyl5.jpg)

[pianoman11686]

I agree the area will improve. I just think the hideous structure across eighth ave will be a major limiting factor in whatever revitalization is possible. Get rid of the bus station and put a park there and sky's the limit. Unforunately, that isn't going to happen for a long long time.

Yeah I suppose you could refurbish the station or build on top of it but it will always be a bus station.

Explain yourself. How do you get rid of a bus station that brings in tens of thousands of daily commuters to the city? Where do you find a spot in the city that's big enough to build its replacement, that is also strategically located on a big intersection of subway lines? And why in God's name would you want to put a park there? What good would that do?

The bus terminal is being refurbished. The western facade is being completely reclad in metal/stone panels, and will acquire a new bowling alley/restaurant in its southwest corner. Meanwhile, a new semi-upscale dining establishment is near completion in the south terminal of the building, on the 8th Avenue side.

It is getting better. If we only found a way to power busses without fuel, the place would be much less grimy and less rundown-looking. I too have heard about the proposed office tower. I don't know how realistic it is, especially when considering that the northwest corner of 8th & 42nd is primed for a teardown and a new office or mixed-use building.

Meanwhile, the X's that are part of the PA's outer frame are being played off beautifully by those on Piano's tower. I'm really starting to see the beauty in this design.

[eddhead]

I agree the area will improve. I just think the hideous structure across eighth ave will be a major limiting factor in whatever revitalization is possible. Get rid of the bus station and put a park there and sky's the limit. Unforunately, that isn't going to happen for a long long time.

Yeah I suppose you could refurbish the station or build on top of it but it will always be a bus station.

True, but Grand Central is a train station and it is niether an eyesore nor unsafe... Now I know the bus terminal will never be Grand Cental, but the point is if you dress it up, you improve the area, irrespective of what it is.

[eddhead]

Explain yourself. How do you get rid of a bus station that brings in tens of thousands of daily commuters to the city? Where do you find a spot in the city that's big enough to build its replacement, that is also strategically located on a big intersection of subway lines? And why in God's name would you want to put a park there? What good would that do?

The bus terminal is being refurbished. The western facade is being completely reclad in metal/stone panels, and will acquire a new bowling alley/restaurant in its southwest corner. Meanwhile, a new semi-upscale dining establishment is near completion in the south terminal of the building, on the 8th Avenue side.

It is getting better. If we only found a way to power busses without fuel, the place would be much less grimy and less rundown-looking. I too have heard about the proposed office tower. I don't know how realistic it is, especially when considering that the northwest corner of 8th & 42nd is primed for a teardown and a new office or mixed-use building.

Meanwhile, the X's that are part of the PA's outer frame are being played off beautifully by those on Piano's tower. I'm really starting to see the beauty in this design.

Have you heard anything about construction on the NW corner of 42/8? I guess it would be from teh Duane Reade to the parking lot?

[ASchwarz]

True, but Grand Central is a train station and it is niether an eyesore nor unsafe... Now I know the bus terminal will never be Grand Cental, but the point is if you dress it up, you improve the area, irrespective of what it is.

You are aware that the majority of the commuters using the PABT are no different from those at Penn or Grand Central? There are tons of white collar commuters from Jersey that use the terminal every weekday.

The terminal is not that different from rail terminals. I suspect that anyone who claims otherwise has not been in the terminal in recent years.

There is actually a fancy restaurant opening in the terminal very soon. Looks like someone figured out that all those lawyers and bankers heading back to Alpine and Harrington Park are a lucrative potential market.

[ablarc]

I guess it's an artefact of culture: bus stations attract low-lifes.




pianoman, I agree the terminal is as well-placed as can be, but a park in that location would also be nice.

[macreator]

I guess it's an artefact of culture: bus stations attract low-lifes.

While not PC to say, this is true.

But I also believe this can be countered to a certain extent by improving the build environment.

Grand Central used to attract equally shady individuals.

[pianoman11686]

Part of the problem undoubtedly lies in perception. If a terminal looks nice on the exterior, you're less likely to notice a bum sleeping on a bench. If it looks old and rundown, you start looking around and making subconscious connection between the appearance of the place and its occupants.

ASchwarz is correct: the terminal is dominated by white-collar commuters during the morning and afternoon rush hours. If you're there at noon or at midnight, however, you're much more apt to see homeless and poor people, often sleeping on the floor as they wait for their bus. But these are also people that, for the most part, are not commuting to suburban New Jersey. They're going to towns you've never heard of in Pennsylvania, upstate New York, and various parts of New England. They use the bus because probably, there's no other way to get there, and it is the cheapest mode of transportation. Nothing wrong with that, and there's no reason to suggest a change, because then you're advocating economic segregation in a public setting.

It's curious that everything I've just described is usually confined to the lower level of the terminal, which is also the dirtiest and the most in need of a renovation. The PA is redoing some of the gates down there presently, but they have a long way to go. Maybe, in a few years, when everything's nice and new, this perception of the PA as a lower-class institution will change.

[pianoman11686]

pianoman, I agree the terminal is as well-placed as can be, but a park in that location would also be nice.

What kind of park? One that tries to be an oasis of greenery, or something more activity-related?

Two reasons why I think a park here wouldn't work: surroundings are still too grim (who wants to be looking up at Lincoln Tunnel ramps when they're enjoying a free moment?); too much competition from an already well-established park (Bryant) and the soon-to-be-completed Hudson River Park, both within a few blocks. I don't see any reason why people in the area would go there, unless the planners came up with something that's more unique and interesting than fields of green with a brick promenade.

[lbjefferies]

Where do you propose to put it?

I don't propose to put it anywhere else. It is what it is and its at a convenient location for New Jersey commuters. I don't think its going anywhere. I presented a hypothetical without any thought about potential ramifications.

[lbjefferies]

Explain yourself. How do you get rid of a bus station that brings in tens of thousands of daily commuters to the city? Where do you find a spot in the city that's big enough to build its replacement, that is also strategically located on a big intersection of subway lines? And why in God's name would you want to put a park there? What good would that do?

The bus terminal is being refurbished. The western facade is being completely reclad in metal/stone panels, and will acquire a new bowling alley/restaurant in its southwest corner. Meanwhile, a new semi-upscale dining establishment is near completion in the south terminal of the building, on the 8th Avenue side.

It is getting better. If we only found a way to power busses without fuel, the place would be much less grimy and less rundown-looking. I too have heard about the proposed office tower. I don't know how realistic it is, especially when considering that the northwest corner of 8th & 42nd is primed for a teardown and a new office or mixed-use building.

Meanwhile, the X's that are part of the PA's outer frame are being played off beautifully by those on Piano's tower. I'm really starting to see the beauty in this design.

Man you are uptight. Wow!

I think its an ugly structure and will always be an ugly structure, no matter what you throw on top of it. Sure its a vital hub of transportation but that doesn't mean I can't hate it. And as for imagining a park being there instead; I guess I just figured parks are pretty, and this building deserves something pretty next to it (especially with the Westin and Hilton nearby). You can never have too many parks imo. Also, I think this building will be one of the jewels of our skyline and I'd like to be able to sit back on a bench and look at it. Just a fantasy, nothing more.

[lbjefferies]

True, but Grand Central is a train station and it is niether an eyesore nor unsafe... Now I know the bus terminal will never be Grand Cental, but the point is if you dress it up, you improve the area, irrespective of what it is.


You're right eddhead. You do what you can and it will improve, no doubt. I just don't believe you can do very much right around there.

[ablarc]

What kind of park? One that tries to be an oasis of greenery, or something more activity-related?
Oh, Washington Square would be just fine, but for a while with cops.

If you moved the bus station, it would have to be a few blocks south, but still close to the ramps.

[lbjefferies]

Oh, Washington Square would be just fine,

and how...:)

[londonlawyer]

I walked by again on 8/15, and noted that the lights on some of the interior floors were on. When this building is lit up at night, it looks almost as good as Salma Hayek naked (or Brad Pitt -- depending on your orientation).

[alibrot]

Within a few years we'll have 2 world class buildings across the street from the PA. We'll have hotels to the south, condos to the west and north. Right now they are just construction sites - they have yet to breath life, although Orion just took its first step.

Change is coming, and the area will be great. Anyone who doubts this hasnt seen the change in the last 10-15 years.

Grand central changed, Penn stations changed, and PA has been changing. It's no grand central, but what else could compare?

Most of the outside retail space in PA is empty, waiting for change to come with the new towers. I walk by there late night all the time. The people hanging out late night and making the place look bad might number 20-25. Hardly too many to overcome. The rest are buses, cabs, and other people doing legitmate business. The place is NOT a defacto homeless shelter, like Penn used to be.

There is also a homeless problem on the west side of 9th/40th. As the area gets nicer, there wi