View Full Version : Visionaries, Day-Dreamers, Crackpots...

February 12th, 2003, 06:03 PM
This forum has been a magnet for those who have their own visions for the WTC site, and the website to go with it. *There are others who have specific visions but no website. *I thought it would be nice to start a thread that would allow members to see all the ideas in one place.

I think it says something about this forum -- I'm not sure what, exactly-- that so many people have personally submitted their own lovingly crafted conceptions for our review: *

Chris Grayson's NYC Sky (http://www.nycsky.com/) proposal
The Thomson Plan (http://www.american-journey.com)
A thread started by Thomas: http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/topic.cgi?forum=4&topic=406
Another old thread started by GR2NYsoon: http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/topic.cgi?forum=4&topic=183
The infamous Big Apple Twins (http://www.oljaivanjicki.com/)
"The Towers of Perseverance" (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/topic.cgi?forum=4&topic=120)

I also invite anyone to post their ideas here, so that this thread might be a kind of survey of the architectural thought going on in this forum.

Yeah, I was kind of bored this evening...

February 12th, 2003, 06:09 PM
I wish I had more time and I would include these as parts of my website. I am working on something that would be immensly helpful if I can work it out. A pdf file on all the buildings of New York City. *

Basically its a work in progress. And I try not to overextend. I used to have "news" but this proved too much work, so I replaced it. Also the building entries are concise, but I will write them in lengths of weeks. I will sit down and write if Im inspired, if not it will linger. I have been working on my Bloomberg entry for almost two weeks now. I find it rewarding though, to have a place for all my thoughts. Off the top of my head this forum is still the best place to come...

(Edited by Stern at 6:14 pm on Feb. 12, 2003)

February 12th, 2003, 06:15 PM
And back to topic, I will leave the World Trade Center site designs to the proffesionals. I am yet to see an "acceptable" amateur design.

February 12th, 2003, 09:17 PM
I am shocked you did not mention the RatherGood proposal (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/topic.cgi?forum=7&topic=46), a more caring architecture of sweet babies and calmer music. The Colossal Calmer Karma Crab, Big Benevolent Baby Baloon and the Platitudipus are revolutionizing architecture right this moment.

February 12th, 2003, 09:18 PM
How could I forget? *Well, that's why I started this thread.

TLOZ Link5
February 13th, 2003, 06:56 PM
I wonder what kind of LSD the designer of rathergood was on...

The colossal karma crab looked like a giant spider. *eek...

Gilbert Gjersvik
February 14th, 2003, 04:29 AM
The link below is to my proposal, which is being developed by the art foundry Tallix in Beacon, NY. My proposal is to turn the entire Ground Zero site into a park featuring bronze replicas of meaningful remains of the Towers that stayed standing. You can see the progress of this proposal at: http://www.agroundzeromemorial.info

All the best,

February 14th, 2003, 08:16 AM
As a resident, I think this is a great idea.

I hope there is enough open area for Little League.

Gilbert Gjersvik
February 14th, 2003, 09:42 AM
I think that is an excellent idea! What if it's an area where kids could also play softball/baseball, soccer, kickball, ultimate frissbee, etc. Does anyone know what the minimum dimensions are for such an area? Could the site accommodate that?
All the best,

February 14th, 2003, 10:10 AM
"Mummy, I'm tired of the apple. Can I go play on the rusty metal?"

"Not today, dear. You haven't had your tetanus booster shot."

Gilbert Gjersvik
February 14th, 2003, 12:34 PM
These would be sculptured replicas. I keep hearing the concern that these would be rusty, dangerous pieces of metal. Not true!

February 14th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Well, I'm just too dense to function.
Somebody please shoot me.

February 14th, 2003, 04:33 PM
Why build replicas when you have many tons of the real thing?

Gilbert Gjersvik
February 14th, 2003, 07:31 PM
Ask The Chimp,

February 14th, 2003, 07:59 PM

I haven't heard much about it lately, but there was a plan to distribute WTC steel to various communities, so they could make their own memorials. Your plan would make more sense in this context.

Turning the entire site into a park is completely unrealistic.

However, Stockton is right. The logic of using replicated artifacts escapes me.

February 14th, 2003, 08:18 PM
It's nice to see that you haven't given up on your idea, Gilbert. *You certainly are a man of dedication.

TLOZ Link5
February 15th, 2003, 02:08 PM
Gilbert, your idea IMHO is simple, yet very refined and elegant. *I for one think that it is profundity, not excessive symbolism, which defines a great memorial. *Oversymbolic monuments are more often seen in fascist countries, where cities are remade into giant parade grounds to celebrate the power of he regime. *This, however, echoes more along the lines of the Vietnam Memorial--being suggestive as opposed in your face.

If I may make one small suggestion, though. *Sixteen acres is a lot of space for just a nice park and a replication of the Twin Tower's facade. *I know you're against commercial development, so I'd suggest a cultural facility, like a performing arts center, and/or a museum about 9/11 and the history of the WTC site. *Downtown sorely needs cultural facilities if it wants to rival Midtown as a major mixed-use community.

February 15th, 2003, 03:55 PM
16 acres is a lot of space for a set of skyscrapers (hopefully 1,300 feet or higher) and a nice park to coexist.

TLOZ Link5
February 15th, 2003, 05:08 PM
I don't doubt that, but it's customary to respect the opinions of others.

Gilbert Gjersvik
February 15th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Maybe it's just me but when you say the following in your last message on this forum...
"It was the ceaseless whining of mega-memorialists and skyscraper haters like Monica Iken and Jack Lynch that disrupted the rebuilding process in the first place. Even the Port Authority is getting sick of them and I support the PA in this regard"...
I really wonder what kind of misguided fanatics are on this message board.

February 16th, 2003, 12:47 AM
Just one big happy family, with a tiny amount of misguided fanatics among our membership. *:)

February 16th, 2003, 01:48 AM
With due respect to you all, I'm not sure if someone like me who would prefer to have new WTC Twin Towers alongside a memorial park should be called a misguided fanatic. Everyone has a right to express his opinion on the particular subject, however strong, on this forum; I'm only expressing mine. ;)

(Edited by Agglomeration at 1:49 am on Feb. 16, 2003)

February 16th, 2003, 01:58 AM
I wasn't referring to you Agglomeration, only to the misguided fanatics who detest construction, and prefer memorialization over skyscrapers.

February 16th, 2003, 03:52 PM
Monica Iken needs a grief counselor, not a 16-ACRE memorial that will make people collapse in grief or vomit. You're right though. These mega-memorialists have no sense of the city's entrepreneurial spirit or even of its determination to adapt to changing circumstances and move on.

(Edited by Agglomeration at 3:53 pm on Feb. 16, 2003)

Gilbert Gjersvik
February 16th, 2003, 04:11 PM
I do find it amusing that people like you who are so critical of victim's families are too cowardly to use your real names on these message boards. It's quite easy to launch diatribes against others anonymously. I doubt you'd ever have the guts to say this stuff to their faces, or post it online with your real name!
Gilbert Gjersvik
Upper East Side

February 17th, 2003, 08:55 AM
Gilbert, while I empathize with your frustration, you have to consider that your position is seen as a bit extreme by most people as well.

I have a memorial proposal with a site plan for commercial development around the memorial:


On forum sites, opinions tend to be very polarized.

There are several camps that have "absolute" positions. Several prominent ones are:

1. The buildings must be built back exactly as they were or a few stories taller or the terrorist have won.

2. The entire site must be a memorial. Not one square foot of commercial space should be built because this is sacred ground.

3. We have to build the World's Tallest Building, anything shorter would be to concede defeat

4. We must never ever build tall again, it is reckless, dangerous and irresponsible

All these conflicting camps, and my proposal does not satify any of them. I get a lot of positive feedback from site visitors, but when it comes to forum sites, watch out!

On forums, the reactions for each camp numbered above, the typical response is below:

1. This isn't the twin towers! You're a "mega memorialist" freak, you $##@!!!

2. You left over half the space for commercial development, you sick greedy b@stard! Not one inch of commercial space can ever be built there or the organization I'm with is going to lay in the streets and block the bulldozers.

3. This tower isn't the tallest building in the world! How dare you suggest anything less the the tallest!

4. This tower is way too tall, you're a reckless maniac!

(Edited by chris at 8:58 am on Feb. 17, 2003)

February 14th, 2005, 06:17 PM
having thought about the WTC and then reflected for several seconds on those thoughts, i arrived at the perfect low cost solution. assemble all the reports, documents, models, magazine and newspaper articles, video tapes and whatnot into a structure using supertallglue and leave to set for 1776 hours. care must be taken not to include hot air inside otherwise it may all fall apart.

i estimate that this self-reflecting tower should easily exceed the height of the Burj Dubai and possibly even the size of Daniel Libeskind's ego.

(no drawing attached)

September 7th, 2009, 05:23 AM
I haven't heard much about it lately, but there was a plan to distribute WTC steel to various communities, so they could make their own memorials.

Sept. 11 Steel Forms Heart of Far-Flung Memorials

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/09/07/nyregion/07steel.span.600.jpg Michael Nagle for The New York Times
Wreckage from 9/11, stored at Kennedy Airport, is being granted to groups around the country.

More Photos > (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/09/06/nyregion/STEELslideshow_index.html)

By MICHAEL WILSON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/w/michael_wilson/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: September 6, 2009

When Jeff Cox, a 15-year-old candidate for the rank of Eagle Scout in Windermere, Fla., approached the small town’s mayor with park improvement ideas to help earn a badge, the mayor informed him that those projects were already covered.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/09/06/nyregion/07steel-docthumb.jpgInteractive (http://documents.nytimes.com/letters-requesting-world-trade-center-artifacts)Documents: Letters Requesting World Trade Center Artifacts (http://documents.nytimes.com/letters-requesting-world-trade-center-artifacts)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/09/06/nyregion/STEELslideshow-B.JPGSlide Show (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/09/06/nyregion/STEELslideshow_index.html)Steel Artifacts (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/09/06/nyregion/STEELslideshow_index.html)

“He came back and said, ‘Would the town like a memorial if I can get World Trade Center steel?’ ” Mayor Gary Bruhn said. “I was stunned. I said, ‘Son, the town would be elated to have something like that.’ He said, ‘I think I need the town’s support. I don’t think they’re going to just give it to me.’”

No, they would not — but close. As the anniversary of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, approaches on Friday, pieces of the World Trade Center rubble from that day have never been more accessible. A new campaign is under way to speed up the process and increase the volume of giving away pieces of steel big and small from the debris.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/port_authority_of_new_york_and_new_jersey/index.html?inline=nyt-org), which owns the steel, will invite police and fire departments and mayors and other leaders of cities and towns throughout the country to ask for pieces for memorials (http://documents.nytimes.com/letters-requesting-world-trade-center-artifacts#p=1). The Port Authority has filled about 25 requests in the last year, and has about a dozen more pending. In recent weeks, trucks have hauled twisted steel columns that weigh hundreds of pounds to York, Pa., and Westerville, Ohio. A smaller piece was shipped to the Air Defense offices of the United States Air Force (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/us_air_force/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in Rome, N.Y.

“The best way we can honor the memory of those we lost on 9/11 is to find homes in the W.T.C. Memorial and in cities and towns around the nation for the hundreds of artifacts we’ve carefully preserved over the years,” said the Port Authority’s executive director, Christopher O. Ward.

The Port Authority hopes to generate more interest in the steel with new advertisements in police, fire and municipal trade magazines. There are 1,800 to 2,000 pieces, half of them very large, which are available for carting away, at the recipient’s expense. This does not include some 200 pieces, among them the most familiar and iconic, that have been claimed by the National Sept. 11 Memorial and Museum (http://www.national911memorial.org/site/PageServer?pagename=New_Home).

Among the pending requests are one from Las Vegas, where the Atomic Testing Museum wants a 79-inch piece to fit in its custom-made case, and one from Eastern Kentucky University, which requested a piece one and a half feet long. There is a also request from a group of fire departments in France.

“The Saint-Etienne fire brigade would very much like to exhibit an artefact from the World Trade Center in order to pay tribute to the victims, civilian and fire fighters of the 11th September attack,” wrote Col. Yves Bussiere, of the regional fire department.

The pieces — some weighing tons, others little more than twisted sheets of metal the size of a street sign — are stored at Hangar 17 at Kennedy International Airport (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/Kennedy International Airporthttp://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/k/kennedy_international_airport_nyc/index.html?inline=nyt-org). The 80,000-square-foot hangar is divided by several large plastic tents, where machines regulate the humidity so the steel doesn’t rust. In one tent, a New York City police car sits crumpled in the corner, as if tossed there.

Lee Ielpi, president of the September 11 Families’ Association (http://www.911families.org/), is sending letters to public safety agencies offering artifacts. “Any bona fide city, town, county, state, corporations, other countries, France, Paris, Lyon, that would want a piece of steel, it would behoove us to accommodate them,” he said.

In the years immediately following the attacks, donations of 9/11 artifacts trickled out to various entities, but the requests were not handled by a single organization, the Port Authority said. The agency requires a detailed description in each request of how the steel will be displayed. Individuals cannot receive artifacts, only cities or organizations. The requests that are pending supplied detailed specifications for the pieces they want: “I am looking for an ‘I’ beam roughly 8’ in length; however, anything that we could have would mean more than words could ever express,” wrote Lt. Michael L. Zarella with the fire department of Mendon, Mass. He visited and chose the piece he wanted, a 10-foot-long hunk of steel “twisted like a party streamer,” he said.

Requests for the steel must also be approved by Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/alvin_k_hellerstein/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Federal District Court, who is overseeing the wrongful death lawsuits stemming from the attacks. While the steel is considered potential evidence in those cases, tests on the steel (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/nyregion/20towers.html) were completed in2005. The judge has since granted all requests and has given no indication he will do otherwise for the pending ones.

The requests are deferential. “All we need is a 1-foot-by-1-foot-by-4-feet tall piece of steel,” read a letter from the mayor and the president of a memorial in Glens Falls, N.Y. “It’s a small piece of steel to fill our big hearts.”

In Wichita, Kan., the Transportation Security Administration (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/t/transportation_security_administration/index.html?inline=nyt-org) awaits shipment of a 600-pound piece of steel. Officials plan to chop it into eight pieces and display each piece in one of the state’s airports. “Most of these are really, really small airports,” said Keith Osborn, the security director.

Steel will be displayed in two parks only about 20 miles apart in Ohio: one beside the Westerville Fire Division Headquarters (“We plan on standing it up and have it facing in the same direction it was when it was in New York, with the north side facing in the right direction,” said a firefighter, Thomas C. Ullom); the other in Hilliard, which selected three pieces. Both memorials will be called First Responder Park.

On Friday, Jack Sommer, the president of Prospect Hill Cemetery in York, Pa., came to Hangar 17 to collect a piece, watching as a cemetery employee strapped a chunk of steel, concrete and gnarled rebar to a trailer. In an added flourish, the men had spread an American flag under the steel. A Port Authority police car escorted them out.

In Windermere, a town of 3,000, the prospective Eagle Scout, Jeff Cox, got the mayor’s support for his project and was waiting for his steel. He was just 7 when the attacks took place. “I wasn’t really sure what the building was, but it kind of scared me,” he said. “No one was really sure what was going to happen.”

He said he has been promised a big piece. “They sent me about six options to pick from,” he said. “I ended up taking part of a steel beam, about three and a half or four feet, 650 pounds.”


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