New Penn Station (Moynihan Station) [Archive] - Page 2

michelle1

July 5th, 2005, 07:31 PM

Final Decision Looms For Moynihan Station
by Matthew Schuerman

Toward the end of an industry luncheon one recent Wednesday, after the roast chicken but before the fruit torte, prominent real-estate lawyer Jonathan Mechanic announced that the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust had landed the contract to develop the Farley Post Office at Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street into the next Grand Central Terminal. It was, he explained, one of the keys to the development of the West Side—and, considering the Jets stadium proposal had just disintegrated two days earlier, the only key within reach.

It was a plum contract, as the developer would control 100,000 square feet of retail space, another 750,000 square feet of potential office space, plus one million square feet of air rights, all with significant tax breaks. In other words, the project—the creation of the new Moynihan Station—will be not just the next Grand Central, but the next 10 Grand Centrals all at once. It was such a long-awaited project, dating back to the invention of the wheel, that the couple hundred real-estate-niks in the audience nodded knowingly. And then they looked around not so knowingly: Was there something in the paper about this that they missed?

There had been rumors on the Internet, to be sure, but in terms of a confirmed, signed, ready-for-the-publicity-department contract, no one had said a word. Mr. Mechanic nevertheless congratulated David Greenbaum, president of Vornado’s New York office division, sitting a few tables ahead of him, and asked how soon the station would be ready. Cushman and Wakefield C.E.O. Bruce Mosler, sitting on the dais as part of the day’s panel, chimed in. "Which is it, David? Two years or three?" He held up two fingers on his right hand, three in his left. The room erupted in laughter, but Mr. Greenbaum muttered something about being a public company and fell silent.

While a state official confirmed that the Related and Vornado partnership is indeed in final negotiations over the lease terms and price with the agency in charge of the project, the Empire State Development Corporation, so is Mortimer Zuckerman’s Boston Properties. To a lesser extent, the ESDC has also negotiated with another bidder, Tishman Speyer, which has partnered with Jones Lang LaSalle, the official said.

The final decision is to be made by the end of July, according to a state official. But then again, the ESDC had said some time ago that it would decide by January. And before that—well, it had named a developer once before for this project, four years ago, only to change the specs so significantly that it had to bid out again.

"We are in the final stages of our evaluation to select a developer for Moynihan Station," ESDC chairman Charles Gargano said in a prepared statement. "This project will be the catalyst for the development of the far West Side of midtown Manhattan."

The station’s appeal is obvious to just about everyone—except the people who were supposed to operate there. Indeed, this is the sort of project with many proponents and no opponents, and yet it is between five and seven years behind schedule, depending on whose timetable you’re using.

Politicians, including the late Senator for whom the station will be named, have long championed Moynihan Station as a way of making up for the loss of Pennsylvania Station, which was torn down to make way for Madison Square Garden four decades ago. No longer will thousands of commuters crawl like ants out of the fetid tunnels of Penn Station and squint when they see daylight. The Skidmore Owings & Merrill design would still put the train platforms underground—they have to be—but will open up the ceiling by means of a giant skylight.

It turns out, according to a few developers and planners, that the city doesn’t need a Jets stadium to develop the West Side, and it might not even need the No. 7 line extension, which was supposed to bring the subway west on 42nd Street to 11th Avenue and then south. And we’re not just talking residential development, which could be built on piers in the Hudson River and still sell in today’s voracious market. "The thing we’re really waiting for is the Farley Post Office," said one executive at a real-estate company. "Once that comes through, you’ll have commuters streaming through to Ninth Avenue and it will make that area that much more attractive to employers and retailers."

The office space in Moynihan Station—including a possible tower that would be put atop the rear post-office annex along Ninth Avenue—could well become the first commercial building to go up in the so-called Hudson Yards district. What’s more, if Moynihan Station becomes a commuter hub for New Jersey Transit, which is still unsettled, it would bring mass transit a block further west.

"We always thought that real-estate market would evolve out of Penn Station, which is already a central business district of a sort," said Anna Levin, co-chair of the land-use committee for Community Board 4 on the West Side. "We actually think it makes more sense that way—development will proceed along 34th Street as opposed to 11th Avenue, which is much further away."

Culture of Inertia

Indeed, political and business leaders are beginning to wipe away the tears they shed after the Jets stadium fell through, if they had shed any at all. Senator Charles Schumer decried, again, what he calls "the culture of inertia" during a recent appearance, though he had never taken a position for or against the stadium in the first place. And he believed that development would continue on the West Side, not only without the stadium but without the tax breaks that the Bloomberg administration was planning to extend to developers who would put up office towers nearby. Instead, he said, focus on the bringing the subway west and aim those incentives instead at Ground Zero, where 4.3 million square feet of office space is going up with only token tenants committed so far.

"Traditionally in this city, infrastructure alone is sufficient to induce development," the Senator said. "Once developers believe the No. 7 line extension is for real they will flock to the area and property values and concomitant property-tax collections will soar."

Many in his audience agreed. "What was important about the city’s incentives for the West Side was that they would bring about enough development quickly enough to get the subway line built in time for the Olympics," said Kathryn Wylde, the president of the Partnership for New York City, a Chamber of Commerce–type group. "Absent the pressure of the deadline of the Olympics, we don’t need the incentives."

A few feet away, William Rudin, the chairman of the Association for a Better New York, and a member of a prominent real-estate family himself, added, "I agree with the Senator that the focus has to be on lower Manhattan. For downtown, it’s critical to get these things done now. The West Side will happen down the road."

The Mayor is not so sure. Later in the day, spokesman Ed Skyler said Mayor Bloomberg is moving ahead with both the No. 7 extension and the tax incentives. "We share the Senator’s beliefs that public money should not be wasted on unnecessary tax breaks," Mr. Skyler said. "These are targeted incentives approved 45 to two by the City Council and designed to provide jobs, affordable housing, park land and tax revenues. We have no plans to scale back the incentives."

How much of a difference the $600 million Farley makeover—not counting the money the developer will spend preparing office and retail space—is going to make on the West Side depends on when, or even whether, it gets made over. The Farley building—call it Moynihan Station if you are optimistic—has become the poster child of a bureaucracy that moves about as fast as the M23 bus. But it’s also an example of a project pushed from above with little support from below. It is easy to see how a pretty building can instill civic spirit and please the public, but will it get people to take more trains? Many agencies are involved, and it’s not clear how many of them are really excited about it to pay for it (though almost all of the money has already been committed). Contrast that to the Grand Central Terminal renovation, which was certainly primed and prodded from outside, but fell squarely in the M.T.A.’s hands. The renovation of Union Station in Washington, D.C.—the other major template—was created by and for Amtrak.

The U.S. Postal Service, after first balking, finally came around as a partner in the project after the state offered to buy the building and lease back a portion. (The post office will still operate there, but in a smaller space.)

Amtrak, for whom this new station supposedly was being built, bailed out on the project a year ago, battered fiscally and politically. But from the get-go, the technical parameters of subterranean space would have limited how much good Amtrak would have gotten out of it. Passengers could have entered the tracks from Moynihan, according to Amtrak spokesman Clifford Black, but for the most part they would have ended up backtracking east toward Penn Station. That’s because the project never called for moving the tracks or the platforms, just the entrances to them.

A state official involved in the project counters that it was Amtrak that came up with the idea of redoing Farley in the first place, and it did so to relieve crowding on the eastern ends of the platforms most accessible from Penn Station. Amtrak, according to the official, was planning to keep Penn Station open even if it followed through on Farley.

Still, according to an individual familiar with the layout of the tracks, just nine of Amtrak’s 21 tracks have platforms that extend more than 200 feet below Farley. The longest ones, which measure a total of 1,600 feet, have about a quarter of their length actually below Farley.

New Jersey Transit is the leading contender to replace Amtrak, and the state hopes to sign an agreement about how much the commuter rail will contribute to the project by July 31. Yet New Jersey Transit, which uses Amtrak’s tracks, will find itself in a similar position, and is still expected to retain facilities in Penn Station as well. Still, with traffic growing quickly on its tracks, New Jersey Transit needs all the space it can get its hands on.

The Long Island Rail Road may also use Moynihan—but again, primarily as an access point. The LIRR’s parent agency, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, has committed $35 million to extend a concourse below Farley’s Eighth Avenue steps that will connect its various tracks, according to a state official.

There are those, including Senator Moynihan’s daughter Maura, who believe that the technical difficulties of conforming to one user or another is something that can be overcome, given enough willpower, and that such willpower will increase exponentially once a developer comes on board.

"The reason the choice of developer is so important is that we will have all that energy and talent that the private sector brings with it," says Ms. Moynihan, who has founded the Moynihan Station Citizens Group to advocate completion. "The stadium debate consumed everyone’s attention. Now we can refocus on Moynihan Station."

Hold out those fingers again, Mr. Mosler. How many do you see?

pianoman11686

July 18th, 2005, 12:36 AM

Finally, some real progress:

Team Chosen for Project to Develop Transit Hub

By CHARLES V. BAGLI

Published: July 18, 2005

The Pataki administration plans to announce today that it has selected a development team to transform the general post office in Midtown Manhattan into a dramatic new $930 million transit hub, a long-awaited project that proponents say will be a catalyst for development and an opportunity for civic redemption.

The Empire State Development Corporation has picked a joint venture of the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust to turn the blocklong James A. Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue into a grand Moynihan Station, named after Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the senator who was its champion until his death in 2003. The project includes not only a train station but also a major block of space for retail, office or residential use.

"It's my hope that it'll be a great train station, serving as the city's front door," said David A. Childs, an architect at Skidmore, Owings & Merrill who had designed an earlier version of the Moynihan renovation. "It would be a chance to reclaim the glory of the original Penn Station."

The post office, most of which was built in 1913, sits across Eighth Avenue from the existing Penn Station, a warren of crowded, below-ground passageways connecting two commuter railroads and two subway lines. That is all that is left of the original station, a Beaux-Arts masterpiece demolished in 1963 despite protests by preservationists and architects. Many of Penn Station's existing tracks and platforms, which serve nearly 550,000 passengers a day in the city's busiest transportation hub, already extend beneath the post office.

The original station and the post office share a classical style and the same architect: McKim, Mead & White. The post office's grand staircase on Eighth Avenue and the long row of 53-foot-high Corinthian columns will remain intact, and the Postal Service will maintain a small presence for retail patrons.

The Moynihan Station's principal tenant will be New Jersey Transit, which is desperate for additional platforms. New York State has already made a $20 million down payment on the $230 million purchase of the Farley building from the Postal Service.

State and city officials, urban planners and developers say that the station could accelerate development of the formerly industrial neighborhood west of the post office.

"This project provides a critical addition to the city's transportation infrastructure and offers tremendous economic development opportunities for the neighborhood," said Andrew M. Alper, president of the city's Economic Development Corporation.

The selection is a victory for Steven Roth, chairman of Vornado and one of the largest commercial landlords in Manhattan, and Stephen M. Ross, chairman of Related, the most prolific and politically connected developer in the city today. Vornado has made a major investment in the area around Penn Station and Madison Square Garden, where it owns skyscrapers containing six million square feet of office space, as well as the Hotel Pennsylvania, across Seventh Avenue from Madison Square Garden, and several retail properties.

The joint venture competed against Boston Properties and Tishman Speyer for the project. Vornado and Related were able to offer more money, according to a government official involved in the negotiations, because Vornado intends to transfer about one million square feet of development rights from the post office site to a parcel at the northeast corner of Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street, where it plans to build a tower.

The two companies will pay about $300 million for the development rights and an annual payment in lieu of property taxes, which has not been disclosed. The size of the payment was a point of contention between state and city officials. City officials had wanted the amount to be higher than real estate taxes downtown so the development would not compete with the rebuilding effort in Lower Manhattan.

Vornado and Related have been working with architects at Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum and James Carpenter Design Associates. But it is unclear what remains of Mr. Childs's 1999 design for a soaring, asymmetrical glass and steel canopy that would funnel light into a great entry hall. The government official, who has seen the new plans, said that Mr. Childs's design had been "modified."

The Moynihan project has traveled a twisted and difficult path since Mr. Moynihan first secured federal funds for the project. It now has the support of Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, Gov. George E. Pataki and Charles A. Gargano, chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation.

It was first conceived as train station, principally for Amtrak, that would take up about half the Farley building. But the project grew in size and scope to include office space. The Postal Service agreed to move out, but then reconsidered.

The Postal Service relented in 2002, but last year, Amtrak dropped out of the project because of money problems. Its ticket windows and track entrances will remain east of Eighth Avenue.

Robert D. Yaro, president of the Regional Plan Association, said he considered the Moynihan Station to be a far more significant project for the future of the Far West Side of Manhattan than the ill-fated $2.2 billion stadium for the Jets. He said it would bring the "portals" of the city's busiest transit hub farther west, from Eighth Avenue to Ninth Avenue, which should spur development in the surrounding neighborhood and provide confidence for commercial builders.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

pianoman11686

July 18th, 2005, 01:14 AM

Vornado and Related were able to offer more money, according to a government official involved in the negotiations, because Vornado intends to transfer about one million square feet of development rights from the post office site to a parcel at the northeast corner of Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street, where it plans to build a tower.[...]Robert D. Yaro, president of the Regional Plan Association, said he considered the Moynihan Station to be a far more significant project for the future of the Far West Side of Manhattan than the ill-fated $2.2 billion stadium for the Jets. He said it would bring the "portals" of the city's busiest transit hub farther west, from Eighth Avenue to Ninth Avenue, which should spur development in the surrounding neighborhood and provide confidence for commercial builders.

First: Does the intended transfer of development rights across the street mean that Vornado is effectively canceling the plan to build above the Post Office building?
Second: Although a new station will be great, I don't see how it will really play a big role in spurring development. The biggest spur to development is the rezoning of Hudson Yards, and any kind of incentives that go along with that. The second biggest would be an extension of the 7 line. All this is doing is bringing a fraction of the commuters, specifically the NJ Transit riders, one block west. Furthermore, if East Side Access goes through, that's a good 150,000-200,000 LIRR commuters being rerouted to Grand Central. Still, with this new proposal on 33rd & 8th, in addition to the previously mentioned proposal at the Hotel Pennsylvania site, and Brookfield's site on 31st, there is the potential to create a new mini-district of Class A office space. It would be ideal if construction started here, then moved north along the proposed 7 extension, and met up with southward moving development coming from the Times Square area. I'm anxious to see the new design. I think exterior modification to the station, though, should be minimal. The Pringle is fine by me.

lofter1

July 18th, 2005, 01:14 AM

Team Chosen for Project to Develop Transit Hub

Vornado intends to transfer about one million square feet of development rights from the post office site to a parcel at the northeast corner of Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street, where it plans to build a tower.

This corner has the Duane Reade, restaurants and the small plaza (with the defunct "fog fountain" which now sprouts ivy).

Anybody know anything about the tower mentioned here?

lofter1

July 18th, 2005, 01:16 AM

Team Chosen for Project to Develop Transit Hub
.. it is unclear what remains of Mr. Childs's 1999 design for a soaring, asymmetrical glass and steel canopy that would funnel light into a great entry hall. The government official, who has seen the new plans, said that Mr. Childs's design had been "modified."

So much for the potato chip...

lofter1

July 18th, 2005, 08:50 AM

So much for the potato chip...

The infamous chip:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/07/18/nyregion/18penn.450.jpg
Jock Pottle/ESTO, courtesy of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill

A rendering of an earlier design for the new station, which will occupy the James A. Farley Post Office, a soaring Beaux-Arts building.

NoyokA

July 18th, 2005, 09:27 AM

I saw the HOK design for their competition proposal for a new Penn Station a couple of years ago, essentially they propose to restore the glass and arches that were destroyed.

ZippyTheChimp

July 18th, 2005, 09:55 AM

The entrance should be on 8th Ave. A waste of that grand staircase.

TonyO

July 18th, 2005, 10:13 AM

The Slatin Report
NYC 07 18 05

PENN RIDES AGAIN

Peter Slatin

Steve Roth did not let this one get away. The Vornado chairman, known as a tough negotiator, has walked away from major deals in the past, including the World Trade Center in 2001 and the General Motors Building in 1997. So with rival bidders Boston Properties waiting in the wings in case the deal died, he and his new partner, Related chairman Steve Ross, hung tough during down-to-the-wire talks with the state agency holding the keys to the James A. Farley Post Office. Under Vornado and Related's hands-across-59th-street stewardship, the huge building and its annex, which together occupy a site from 31st to 33rd streets and from Eighth to Ninth avenues, will be transformed into a new train station on Manhattan's West Side. The facility will be named for the man whose vision is empowering its creation, the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Related and Vornado will pay approximately $300 million to acquire the rights to develop the complex, according to The New York Times; they will also offer an unspecified annual payments in lieu of taxes (PILOT). New York State has agreed to buy the site from the post office for $230 million.

The new facility offers two huge development opportunities for the team: first is what one retail expert says is up to 750,000 square feet of retail development in the combined post office building and annex; the other is in approximately 1 million square feet of development rights that can be transferred from the landmarked post office to adjacent sites. According to the Times, Vornado plans to build an office tower using those rights at the northeast corner of the site. However, any such plans are likely to move slowly, and could easily change with market conditions. For one thing, Vornado will need to replace its highly regarded head of development, Mel Blum, who is expected to leave the REIT this summer.

Of course, the issue of how Roth and Ross will parcel out this parcel among themselves remains unclear. The two teams have major new buildings that bookend a high-powered swath of 59th Street: Ross' Related built Time Warner Center, at Eighth Avenue, while Vornado can point to the new Bloomberg headquarters/One Beacon Court, which spans from Lexington to Third Avenue. But in the area around the post office, Vornado is the clear kingpin, with some 6 million square feet of office space and the 1,000-room Pennsylvania Hotel in its pocket. Related is also working on massive mixed-use development initiatives on an urban scale in Las Vegas and Los Angeles. Vornado and Related also teamed up to with an investment pledge for the New York Jets ill-fated bid to build a stadium a few blocks due west of the post office; the two would have helped buy the Hudson Yards site from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority in exchange for development parcels on the site.

The deal also points up hope for another, adjacent site. Just across Ninth Avenue from the post office annex, the open Hudson Yards come into view. Brookfield owns the southern half of the development rights that stretch from 31st to 33rd streets and from Ninth to Tenth avenues; the northern half is owned by investor Harvey Schulweis. Like the stadium site, a costly platform would need to be built before either owner could build a revenue-producing structure.

In 1999, at a swirling press conference held within the post office and hosted by President Clinton and Senator Moynihan, designs by David Childs and Skidmore, Owings & Merrill were hailed for the spectacular redesign of the two-building complex. The approach showed sensitivity to the historic fabric of the McKim, Mead & White structure, but also introduced a bold glass and steel canopy inserted between the post office and its annex that soared above them, proclaiming a new life on the street. That piece, known as "the chip," was widely seen as the most interesting part of the proposed changes; now, however, the future of this architectural folly, which one observer says will cost up to $60 million to construct, is seriously in doubt. Form may follow function, but if function doesn't produce return on investment, then form may cease to function.

fioco

July 18th, 2005, 02:59 PM

Form may follow function, but if function doesn't produce return on investment, then form may cease to function.In one pithy, well-constructed sentence, Peter Slatin sums up the zeitgeist of contemporary American corporate architecture.

Pottebaum

July 18th, 2005, 06:14 PM

So, are they still going to choose from those 3(or four?) proposals that were shown a while back?

ZippyTheChimp

July 18th, 2005, 06:16 PM

I only got a quick look at part of the model on TV news. The potato chip is replaced by a glass structure, the roof a series of vaults.

NoyokA

July 18th, 2005, 06:26 PM

This truly sucks.

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-07/18534938.jpg
Governor Pataki during the unveiling of a model of the new Moynihan Station development planned for the conversion of the Farley Post Office.

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-07/18534902.jpg
Close-up view of a model for the new Moynihan Station development planned for the conversion of the Farley Post Office.

Pottebaum

July 18th, 2005, 06:55 PM

Where'd you find those, Stern?

NoyokA

July 18th, 2005, 07:01 PM

Newsday. I suppose they offered more money to the ESDC and in turn reduced financing for the station itself.

macreator

July 18th, 2005, 08:00 PM

That really sucks. Whatever architectural critics call the old "chip" design, it was truly a great design.

fioco

July 18th, 2005, 08:51 PM

Vornado and Related have been working with architects at Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum and James Carpenter Design Associates. But it is unclear what remains of Mr. Childs's 1999 design for a soaring, asymmetrical glass and steel canopy that would funnel light into a great entry hall.
Well-known for their nostalgic baseball parks, HOK enters a new realm of quoting and recreating historical atmosphere. I want to see more, but I was hopeful of something akin to Foster's treatment of the Hearst building: a juxtaposition of old and new that creates something new and surprising.

James Kovata

July 18th, 2005, 09:22 PM

I only got a quick look at part of the model on TV news. The potato chip is replaced by a glass structure, the roof a series of vaults.

Amen

lofter1

July 18th, 2005, 09:29 PM

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-07/18534902.jpg
Close-up view of a model for the new Moynihan Station development planned for the conversion of the Farley Post Office.

Trying hard to evoke the dear deceased Penn Station:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8a/Penn_Station2.jpg/464px-Penn_Station2.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Penn_Station2.jpg)

NoyokA

July 18th, 2005, 09:31 PM

Not even close.

macreator

July 18th, 2005, 10:12 PM

Alonzo-ny

July 18th, 2005, 10:47 PM

Im not with the recreating of stuff (wtc not included), yeah crystal palace was beautiful but move on its not coming back, the potato chip (why do people insist on giving things dumb nicknames) was cool new and different i mean move in the right direction people, forward not back.

TLOZ Link5

July 18th, 2005, 11:23 PM

...double post.

TLOZ Link5

July 18th, 2005, 11:36 PM

An era that we naïvely thought was perfect? Not perfect. Better in some ways, certainly; but nowhere near perfect.

How will the Farley expansion affect the railroads' spaces at the existing Penn Station? New Jersey Transit's section was nicely renovated recently, for all its fussy postmodern design that should otherwise be repeated throughout the rest of the station; LIRR's section evokes a well-maintained subway station/suburban mall, complete with the permanent presence of a Guatemalan pipe band; and Amtrak is something that I'd rather not go into. The only touch of grace that the current Penn has are, ironically, the nostalgic photographs of the old one affixed to the pillars of the current Amtrak concourse.

I don't care the potato chip is gone as much as I do that the project shows viable signs of finally moving forward. Maybe it's reckless to have Maura Moynihan's just-build-it-dammit view of the project at this point, but this city has done penance for the demolition of McKim's masterpiece long enough. That the financial price to [partially] redeem ourselves now is so high is a blame that lies solely with Irving Felt, Charles Luckman, and the bigwigs at Penn Central.

stunt 101

July 19th, 2005, 08:14 AM

http://www.nynewsday.com/other/special/amny/

There's an article in AM NewYork about the new station. Click on the front page, and scroll to page four. Requires adobe.

TonyO

July 19th, 2005, 08:51 AM

As someone who isn't a fan of recreating baseball parks of a bygone era and therefore trying to recreate the "goodness" of a timeperiod that we naively think was perfect, I hate the idea of trying to emulate the original Penn station. While Penn Station was a magnificent station in its day, we need to create an equally impressive portal for the 21st century, one that integrates this period's architecture and not last century's. We have some great architecture being made by some great designers today...we shouldn't have to dip back and copycat previous designs to produce something truly magnificent.

Just my 2 cents.

And that should be Calatrava's downtown. However, Moynihan station is a chance to right a wrong and get a great train station out of it as well.

My only problem with the whole thing is Amtrak's lack of involvement. Most people take NJTransit, but not having the only national rail service involved in this train station is pathetic.

billyblancoNYC

July 19th, 2005, 09:55 AM

http://www.nylovesbiz.com/moynihan_station.htm

BrooklynRider

July 19th, 2005, 10:36 AM

I like it better than Childs design - and I think he needs a mandatory five-year vacation visiting architectural wonders of the world. Any train station that is open to the sky gets my vote. As much as I love Grand Central, I find it too dark. With this, Calavatra downtown and the domed Fulton Street Station (old version not new baby dome) - we have some forward thinking hubs in the pipeline. Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn might one day get is big glass entryway, but that portion of the project has slowed to snail's pace.

The one note that I will say about this "Moynihan Station" is - we have been at this stage twice before in the last ten years. So, I'm not holding my breadth. The propsed NYS Transportation Bond Act seems to have focused more on bridges and roadways in NYC than Mass Transit.

stunt 101

July 19th, 2005, 10:52 AM

I like the new design, as it preserves the post office generally as it is now. However, although I agree with brooklyn's comment on open spaces, I think that they could have built 20 or so floors on top of the post office to create offices and retail stores. The concourse would be open air still, but would be surrounded by 20 storeys rising up, giving the project much more financial security with low cost as well as making the new station a combination of old and new architectural styles.

ZippyTheChimp

July 19th, 2005, 11:02 AM

I hate the idea of trying to emulate the original Penn station. While Penn Station was a magnificent station in its day, we need to create an equally impressive portal for the 21st century, one that integrates this period's architecture and not last century's.
I don't see how this project is a choice between retro and current architecture.

The building, a national landmark, cannot be altered substantially, and can't help echoing the old Penn Station. The unfortunate removal of the potato chip was an economic decision, not an architectural one.

The one thing I am happy about is the decision to transfer air rights off site, rather than plop a tower on top of the building.

ryan

July 19th, 2005, 11:09 AM

The one thing I am happy about is the decision to transfer air rights off site, rather than plop a tower on top of the building.

Agreed - I like this round of renderings much better than the previous with the tower just kind of plopped on one side. The glass roof is quite beautiful on it's own, and I doubt it would emulate the old Penn as much as the model suggests.

kliq6

July 19th, 2005, 11:20 AM

This will truly help get the West Side moving, much more then the Jets stadium or even the Javits expansion that is in final planning and soon to start. Plus the 7 train has received its funding

Nice to Silvers Plan to kill the West Side to come up short

ManhattanKnight

July 19th, 2005, 11:31 AM

The entrance should be on 8th Ave. A waste of that grand staircase.

Agreed, though there needs to be some street-level access for the disabled and those unwilling to haul luggage up and down long flights of stairs. Putting the entrances on two one-way and narrow side streets is a terrible idea. Too bad that no one has the fortitude and imagination to do this project the right way, by razing the hideous and dated MSG and 2 Penn Plaza and putting McKim's masterpiece back up. We certainly know what it looked like, and the original drawings might even still exist. The original site is ideally located between two major subway lines; the Post Office is not.

JMGarcia

July 19th, 2005, 02:31 PM

I've never really noticed that there is a lot of street traffic in and out of Penn Station on 8th. It seems the vast majority of it comes from the subways or will continue to enter the complex through the entrances on 7th.

So, I don't think the side street entrances are necessarily a bad idea, especially if there are going to be a lot of taxi pickups which would cause traffic problems on 8th.

jp1

July 19th, 2005, 02:39 PM

FYI, the 7 train will travel east on 42 to 10th, then curve south on 11th avenue and 34th, miles away from this new station which is between 8th and 9th. The only subway connection to Farley will be the ACE on 8th ave, east of the station. The whole thing is kind of pointless, except for adding a couple tracks for NJ Transit...but then again all those people will have to walk much further to get to anywhere....unless the put in moving sidewalks underneath the old Penn Station.

The only real accomplishment will be a new skyscraper, probably not more than 600 feet, atop the northwestern part of Farley that no one ever went to before. As a transportation improvement, this is like putting an airport in the middle of Alaska.

lofter1

July 19th, 2005, 02:39 PM

I'm very curious how the engineers will work out water drainage on the new vaulted roof.

Perhaps the columns also act as drain pipes??

http://www.nylovesbiz.com/images/050629_Farley_trainhall.jpg

lofter1

July 19th, 2005, 02:47 PM

The only subway connection to Farley will be the ACE on 8th ave, east of the station. The whole thing is kind of pointless, except for adding a couple tracks for NJ Transit...

Pardon my ignorance...

Isn't the LIRR going to stay put and use the existing tracks / platforms / station?

And won't the new Moynihan / Farley be an adjunct to the existing below-ground AMTRAK / NJ Transit platforms under MSG?

And any new construction on MSG site would be built around the existing tracks / platforms?

And underground connections from Subway 1, 2 & 3 to Subway A, C, E, etc. would remain (and extended to Moynihan / Farley)?

Or is everything under the MSG block to be torn out (can't even begin to imagine why that would take place)?

stunt 101

July 19th, 2005, 02:47 PM

That concourse design has great potential to improve general financial efficiency in the building. The large amount of sunlight would lower general heating costs during the winter, and the water (which is drained probably just how lofter1 hypothesized) could be filtered and used in lavatories/fountains. I wonder if they had all this in mind already lol.

jp1

July 19th, 2005, 05:13 PM

Transportation hubs are all about the linkages.
The subway links are way east and west of the new station. You can walk there, yes, but is there any real improvement to the hub system with the new 7 train and Farley? That would have to be no. If the 7 stopped at the new station, it would be yes, but this is not the case now, and both the 7 and 1/9 will now be 2 long blocks away. Airport style moving sidewalks will be a requirement.

TonyO

July 19th, 2005, 05:33 PM

The Slatin Report
NYC 07 19 05

PENN UPDATE: MOYNIHAN MOVES

Peter Slatin

What will the new Daniel Patrick Moynihan Station look like? Well, things could change - if development plans unveiled at a sweltering press conference Monday stay on track, it won’t be opening until 2011.

But people inside the coalescing groups of developers and designers that have been assembled for this nearly $1 billion undertaking appear determined to complete the transformation of the James A. Farley Post Office over the next five years. To begin with, the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust, which were awarded development rights to the property by New York State, must now formalize their working arrangement. Top executives at both Vornado and Related told The Slatin Report today that the two companies will create a new subsidiary to oversee the joint venture. For Related, the project will unfold under the direction of Vishaan Chakrabarty, who served in the Bloomberg administration until late last year as head of the Manhattan office of the Dept. of City Planning, and also previously worked at Skidmore, Owings & Merrill.

Vornado has not yet said who it will name to oversee the project following the expected departure of its top development executive, Mel Blum. But sources and observers speculate that Related’s somewhat larger development infrastructure will be involved in more of the day-to-day operations at the P.O.

Vornado also brings a key element to the project – a development site across 33rd Street from the Farley building, which will allow the team to realize the project’s size potential without encumbering the historic facade of the post office building, which opened on Labor Day in 1914. Addressing a sensitive issue at the press conference, Empire State Development Corp. Chairman Charles Gargano took pains to note that any new development will include uses other than office space, and thus not compete with the redevelopment effort underway in Lower Manhattan.

The Moynihan Station design effort itself is also a collaboration, between HOK New York and Jamie Carpenter Design Associates, a noted designer of structural glass elements who has worked on major New York skyscrapers such as the Bear, Stearns headquarters at 383 Madison Ave. and 7 World Trade Center. Both of these were designed by David Childs of SOM, who designed an earlier version of the Moynihan project; he is now involved in it only as a consultant to New York State.

Some of the component pieces of the project were described in a conversation with Ken Drucker, design director of HOK New York and the firm’s lead design architect on the project – which HOK has been involved with since it was first conceived of by the late Sen. Moynihan in 1989. HOK worked in the early 1990s on schematic designs and a master plan, and was approached again last year by Related as that firm was preparing its bid; Related later brought in Vornado as well.

When completed, the station will have three main public spaces, Drucker explains: a 140-foot-square Train Hall, which will be in the original post office building; a 60-by-200-foot Intermodal Hall, joining the commuter rail lines and subways, which will be in the “interstitial space” that separates the Eighth Avenue post office building from its annex, which fronts on Ninth Avenue; and a 60-by 300-foot East/West Corridor, joining the Intermodal Hall with the annex.

It is in finding the right uses for the areas around and above these vast public spaces is where the developers will want – and need – to flex their expertise. At present, the train hall, with transit-related retail on the concourse level, will be topped on all four sides by a hotel that will encircle it for three stories. Two more floors of retail plus one floor of the hotel will sit above the intermodal hall; another entire floor of the annex may be given over to a merchandise mart – a neat fit for a business that requires commuting and hoteling for buyers. Vornado owns and operates the vast Merchandise Mart building in Chicago.

The station, which will include 11 new tracks, will serve New Jersey Transit and the Long Island Rail Road. Officials predict it will create 3,300 permanent jobs – some of which may be to protect the 33 entry points that have been envisioned in the new plan. Absent from the plan: Amtrak, the beleaguered railroad, which pulled out of planning for the station last year over budget worries.

Although at this point it’s all conceptual, the concept has actually been moved forward. Despite deploying a stream of clich?s to describe the project, from “gateway” to “launching pad,” the public and private participants in the announcement seemed genuinely awed at the idea that they might get something huge and important accomplished. It will cost them, and the outcome is not to be predicted. But the occasion even called for a fleeting moment of candor from Gov. Pataki, a politician known for glad-handing and indeed just back from a glad-handing visit to Iowa. Asked if he thought Amtrak might eventually join the Moynihan Station party, he spat out, “If they get their act together.”

Indeed, all parties to this vast and complex project will need to keep that sentiment in mind.

Alonzo-ny

July 19th, 2005, 07:50 PM

I love big open glass roofs like that but it just aint cutting edge architecture

lofter1

July 19th, 2005, 08:41 PM

The Slatin Report
NYC 07 18 05

PENN RIDES AGAIN

The new facility offers ... approximately 1 million square feet of development rights that can be transferred from the landmarked post office to adjacent sites. According to the Times, Vornado plans to build an office tower using those rights at the northeast corner of the site.

The Slatin Report
NYC 07 19 05

PENN UPDATE: MOYNIHAN MOVES

Vornado also brings a key element to the project – a development site across 33rd Street from the Farley building, which will allow the team to realize the project’s size potential ...
The site described at the NE corner of 8th Ave (33rd / 34th) fronts the full block and continues about another 100 feet east on 33 & 34.

If my calculations are correct (admittedly this is highly questionable!!), the info above would mean that this new building could be at least 65 stories.

(One Penn Plaza, at 57 stories, sits on the same block across a small block-through plaza and right next to the site described.)

STT757

July 19th, 2005, 10:54 PM

This project will not feature any new tracks or platforms, they will extend some platforms that do not currently run underneath the Post office. Not all of the platforms of Penn Station will be accesible from the Post office Station, this project will provide more access points to NJ Transit's platforms but no new platforms.

It provides a nice place for travelers waiting for trains, decent shopping, restaraunts, Starbucks etc.. It also presents itself as a more fitting entrance to the City for folks arriving in the City from Newark Airport via Airtrain/NJ Transit.

NoyokA

July 19th, 2005, 11:41 PM

The site described at the NE corner of 8th Ave (33rd / 34th) fronts the full block and continues about another 100 feet east on 33 & 34.

If my calculations are correct (admittedly this is highly questionable!!), the info above would mean that this new building could be at least 65 stories.

(One Penn Plaza, at 57 stories, sits on the same block across a small block-through plaza and right next to the site described.)

You said it. While the core will probably face 1 Penn Plaza there will be pressure to make it taller than 1 Penn Plaza so that there will be penthouses with views in all directions and of the Empire State Building.

pianoman11686

July 20th, 2005, 12:15 AM

More info and renderings:

New Penn Station no longer dream

http://www.westsidestadium.org/content/newsarchives/050629_Farley_aerial.jpg

Developers chosen for $818M project

BY PAUL D. COLFORD
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

State and city officials yesterday named the developers who will replace one of the city's lost jewels - the old Pennsylvania Station - with a new gem.

After years of delay, the city, state and two big developers are all aboard with a design to turn the main post office on Eighth Ave. into a grand transit hub recalling the elegant Pennsylvania Station that was razed in 1963.

The $818 million plan will preserve the handsome facade of the James A. Farley Post Office, erected in 1913, while adapting the building as the new Daniel Patrick Moynihan Station, to honor the late U.S. senator, who pushed hard for the idea.

"This is going to be a magnificent gateway for New York," Gov. Pataki said at yesterday's unveiling of the design, which also calls for shops, restaurants and a boutique hotel.

Pataki noted that more than 500,000 subway, NJTransit, Long Island Rail Road and Amtrak riders a day now use Penn Station, a bland hub located across Eighth Ave. He called the current location "horribly inadequate." It's "certainly not an appropriate gateway to the greatest city in the world," he added.

As envisioned by James Carpenter Design Associates, in collaboration with Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum, the new central train hall will mirror the old Penn Station through the addition of tall, steel arches on which will sit a huge, yet lightweight, skylight.

A second, so-called "grid shell skylight" will be set atop a hall to be located roughly in the middle of the building, between Eighth and Ninth Aves., that will serve as a taxi station and baggage dropoff.

The winning plan for the project was submitted by a team of major New York developers, The Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust, which has extensive holdings in the area.

The companies will put up about $300 million of the projected $818 million cost at different stages before the work is completed in 2010.

The city, state and federal governments and the Port Authority are also helping to fund the project, whose main transit beneficiary will be NJTransit trains.

The congestion that commuters now face in reaching the track level in Penn Station will be relieved with the addition of staircases and other access to 11 platforms that already sit under the Farley building.

The Postal Service will occupy 250,000 square feet.

Up to 1 million square feet of air rights will be applied to the northeast corner of Eighth Ave. and 33rd St., where a Duane Reade store now stands. A residential tower is expected to rise there, next to Vornado-owned 1Penn Plaza.

"The completion of the Moynihan Station gives a second chance to recapture the extraordinary station that once was Penn Station," said Charles Gargano, chairman of the state Economic Development Corp.

Gargano's agency spearheaded the plan and arranged for the planned purchase of the Farley building from the Postal Service for $230 million.

Yesterday's unveiling was the latest chapter in a long-running effort to give the Farley building new life as a transit hub.

Moynihan's dream project seemed far along six years ago, when then-President Bill Clinton came to New York to join Pataki and the senator in introducing plans for "the new Penn Station" in the Farley building.

Amtrak, the owner of Penn Station, was then onboard, but has since pulled back its planned financial contribution.

Mayor Bloomberg said the project will create more than 10,000 construction jobs, more than 3,300 permanent jobs and more than $50 million a year intax revenue, and provide an anchor destination amid plans for new West Side development.

http://www.westsidestadium.org/content/newsarchives/050629_Farley_model.jpg

http://www.westsidestadium.org/content/newsarchives/050629_Farley_trainhall.jpg

Applause as urban wrong is righted

BY PAUL D. COLFORD
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

http://www.westsidestadium.org/content/newsarchives/050629_Farley_oldPenn.jpg

There'll never be anything like old Penn Station - but preservationists yesterday cheered the attempt to right a four-decade wrong by turning the main post office into a majestic transit hub.

"I'm also thrilled that it will be a train station, not a development site," said New York Landmarks Conservancy President Peg Breen. "The train hall, evoking the old Penn Station, is a masterful touch. I think all New Yorkers should be very happy.

"Now, let's get going with it."

The razing of the original Penn Station in 1963 galvanized the preservation movement in New York, and led to the creation of the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission, which protects historic buildings.

The use of the post office - an architectural twin to Penn Station, designed by the same firm, McKim, Mead & White - has drawn wide praise.

Municipal Art Society President Kent Barwick, whose organization helped lead the fight to preserve Grand Central Terminal in the 1970s, said the design for the new hub is "an exciting beginning."

"The significance of this building has been underappreciated in overall planning for the West Side," he added.

Aurora Wallace, who teaches in the culture and communications department at New York University, said: "Insofar as this is an attempt to right the wrong of the current Penn Station, the design should be applauded.

"I've never met an architecture historian who didn't think the destruction of the old Penn Station was a disaster. This new design looks more monumental and important than what's currently in use."

Copyright 2005 The New York Daily News

pianoman11686

July 20th, 2005, 12:35 AM

Say what you want about this new plan. Sure, we can't literally bring back the old Penn Station, but I think this is pretty good. I'm especially relieved that there won't be any highrise construction above the train station itself, and I'm looking forward to a nice highrise across the street. I know there used to be a plan for tower at Penn Plaza at some point, and it looked pretty decent.

There's one thing I'm a little unnerved about. I read in one of the articles that there's a plan to include a hotel inside the train station. I'm concerned this will create a tacky look while inside the building, as you'll be looking up at hotel room windows surrounding you in the atrium. It's interesting that no one here has raised eyebrows about it so far. And while it may sound very unusual, I know that it's been done at least once before. The Hyatt Regency St. Louis is housed within the beautifully restored Union Station, itself a National Landmark. It was built in 1894 and was at the time, the country's biggest and busiest train station. Perhaps Hyatt's success may lead it to open up another hotel in Moynihan Station. Here are some pictures of what the St. Louis station/hotel looks like:

The Exterior
http://stlouis.hyatt.com/property/imagedb/stlou/stlou_slide_lg_00.jpg

The Grand Hall
http://stlouis.hyatt.com/property/imagedb/stlou/stlou_slide_lg_16.jpg

The Regency Club Atrium
http://stlouis.hyatt.com/property/imagedb/stlou/stlou_slide_lg_30.jpg

The Gothic Corridor
http://stlouis.hyatt.com/property/imagedb/stlou/stlou_slide_lg_31.jpg

lofter1

July 20th, 2005, 08:15 AM

This project will not feature any new tracks or platforms, they will extend some platforms that do not currently run underneath the Post office. Not all of the platforms of Penn Station will be accesible from the Post office Station, this project will provide more access points to NJ Transit's platforms but no new platforms.

Thanks for the clarification. My brain is still having some trouble getting a clear picture of what the end result below-ground will be...

Ultimately what will happen to the existing below-ground LIRR station, concourses and connections to subway lines?

Are those to remain after Moynihan / Farley is completed?

And if AMTRAK doesn't "get their act together" (as Pataki noted AMTRAK must do if it is to be a part of Moynihan) where will the AMTRAK station be?

TonyO

July 20th, 2005, 09:21 AM

And if AMTRAK doesn't "get their act together" (as Pataki noted AMTRAK must do if it is to be a part of Moynihan) where will the AMTRAK station be?

Amtrak would remain at the old Penn station under MSG - which is pathetic.

BrooklynRider

July 20th, 2005, 10:04 AM

The Slatin Report
NYC 07 19 05

.... For Related, the project will unfold under the direction of Vishaan Chakrabarty...

<ding, dong> Hi Mrs. Chakrabarty! Can Vishaan come out and play?

__________________________________________________ ___________

Sorry - had to do it.

Anyway, don't understand why the post office won't relinquish the site. Is there a strong argument for not moving the post office to a different site or new building?

lofter1

July 20th, 2005, 11:05 AM

Amtrak would remain at the old Penn station under MSG - which is pathetic.

So does that mean that the existing station would remain and continue to operate and that all construction above (should MSG be razed) would have to take place around the business of the AMTRAK station?

If so then that's one hell of a job for a project manager!!

Anyone know the agreement / lease term that AMTRAK has at the current station?

ASchwarz

July 20th, 2005, 11:14 AM

Everything in the current Penn Station will remain. In fact, there are plans for additional underground expansion. The Moynihan Station is an addition to Penn, not a replacement.

TonyO

July 20th, 2005, 11:20 AM

So does that mean that the existing station would remain and continue to operate and that all construction above (should MSG be razed) would have to take place around the business of the AMTRAK station?

If so then that's one hell of a job for a project manager!!

Anyone know the agreement / lease term that AMTRAK has at the current station?

From what I understand, Amtrak owns the space they occupy in Penn and would have to lease new space in Moynihan - thus being the problem with the cash-strapped company.

lofter1

July 20th, 2005, 11:24 AM

From what I understand, Amtrak owns the space they occupy in Penn and would have to lease new space in Moynihan - thus being the problem with the cash-strapped company.

Still trying to wrap my brain around this:

So, Cablevision owns MSG above AMTRAK -- and AMTRAK owns the station below MSG.

Or does Cablevision lease MSG from AMTRAK?

Or is there another player (or two) in this?

Or am I just getting this all wrong?

ManhattanKnight

July 20th, 2005, 11:29 AM

Anyone know the agreement / lease term that AMTRAK has at the current station?

Amtrak doesn't lease the hell-hole; it owns it.

TonyO

July 20th, 2005, 11:43 AM

Still trying to wrap my brain around this:

So, Cablevision owns MSG above AMTRAK -- and AMTRAK owns the station below MSG.

Or does Cablevision lease MSG from AMTRAK?

Or is there another player (or two) in this?

Or am I just getting this all wrong?

Amtrak does not own MSG, it just owns its space below in Penn Station. I don't know the details.

Dynamicdezzy

July 20th, 2005, 03:28 PM

Amtrack owns the sub surface rights (property) while msg owns the surface rights to the property...and also some air rights considering the size.

STT757

July 20th, 2005, 06:33 PM

Amtrak, LIRR and NJ Transit are going to stay where they are in the basement known as Penn Station, the Farley project is just going to provide another access point for NJ Transit trains.

Most commuters will continue to use NJ Transit's East End concourse in the current Penn Station which was just renovated two years ago, it's more conveinent for the commuters coming from the 7th av Subway.

The folks using the Farley entrance will mostly be day trippers, travelers from the airport etc..

lofter1

July 20th, 2005, 08:07 PM

Thanks to all for the clarifications...

pianoman11686

July 21st, 2005, 12:14 AM

With Many Modifications, Penn Station Project Is 'Go'

By DAVID W. DUNLAP

Published: July 21, 2005

OVERLOOKED in the fanfare this week over the announcement that the long-delayed Pennsylvania Station expansion project will be taken over by two powerful developers, the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust, is the fact that the design has been significantly altered. Again.

The first design, by Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum, was unveiled in 1992; the second, by Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, in 1999. The latest is by James Carpenter Design Associates, with the collaboration of Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum.

The basic idea is still the same: to expand passenger operations westward from the claustrophobic existing station into the James A. Farley Building, the monumental General Post Office from 1913. It was designed by McKim, Mead & White, architects of the original Pennsylvania Station, as a neo-Classical companion piece across Eighth Avenue.

Important details of the latest Farley project - formally Moynihan Station, after Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, its outspoken champion until his death in 2003 - have been changed by the new developers and their architectural team.

Perhaps most notably, Moynihan Station has lost the 150-foot-high steel and glass shell proposed by David M. Childs of Skidmore, which would have bisected the blocklong Farley Building and given it a strikingly modern profile in midblock, extending well above the roofline and beyond the existing facades on 31st and 33rd Streets.

(Less than a month ago, another bravura Skidmore plan - for the torqued, cable-laced Freedom Tower at the World Trade Center site - was also shelved.)

The latest design creates a significantly different volume in the train hall and concourse that will occupy the former mail-sorting room at the heart of the post office.

Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum's original plan called for a skylight in the form of a 120-foot parabolic arch rising within the interior courtyard occupied by the sorting room. Skidmore proposed to modify and refurbish the existing shed roof and skylight, which would have been about 70 feet over the upper floor of a new two-level concourse.

James Carpenter and Kenneth Drucker, the senior principal and director of design in the New York office of Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum, have instead proposed a single-level concourse, which will save money. More than 100 feet overhead, an undulating grid of skylights supported on six great columns will recall - though not replicate - the roof of the original McKim, Mead & White concourse. There will be similar skylights over a midblock hall.

"We took the premise of opening up the building through light," Mr. Carpenter said.

The new approach to the train hall will permit all the interior courtyard windows, many of which will be part of a new hotel, to overlook the concourse without obstruction. "We wanted to engage the hotel with the functions of Moynihan Station and not feel like you're separated from it," Mr. Drucker said.

CHARLES A. GARGANO, the chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation and the subsidiary Moynihan Station Development Corporation, said that officials favored the Related-Vornado project in part because it would transfer unused development rights from the post office to a nearby site.

"It means there will be no new tower built atop the Farley Building," he said.

But neither will there be a shell. This skylight over the midblock transportation hall was to have been shaped like the section of a larger, imaginary sphere. Its shallow concave form reminded some viewers of a giant potato chip. This being New York, the land of Lipstick and Flatiron Buildings, that nickname stuck.

"One of the concerns we had about the chip was that you would have to blow out the facades of the 31st and 33rd Street sides," Mr. Gargano said. "And we wanted to keep as much of the facade as possible." Such decisions affect the project's eligibility for historic preservation tax credits.

Mr. Gargano said there were savings from not building the chip. But he added, "While the chip appeared very dramatic - and I'm not taking anything away from S.O.M. - if indeed we want to recapture the old Penn Station, I think we're doing it more by utilizing the design we have."

Maura Moynihan, a senior fellow at the Regional Plan Association, recalled that her father "loved the chip," and she allowed that the design had changed since he unveiled it six years ago with Gov. George E. Pataki and President Bill Clinton. So has the world. "The budget was in surplus," Ms. Moynihan said. "This was pre-9/11. This was pre-Iraq invasion. And it was possible to think bigger and plan bigger."

Given the realities surrounding the Moynihan Station project, she said, "The fact that it's still on the books at all I consider a blessing, a miracle."

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/07/21/nyregion/21blocks2_lg.jpg

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

lofter1

July 21st, 2005, 01:39 AM

With Many Modifications, Penn Station Project Is 'Go'

The new approach to the train hall will permit all the interior courtyard windows, many of which will be part of a new hotel, to overlook the concourse without obstruction. "We wanted to engage the hotel with the functions of Moynihan Station and not feel like you're separated from it," Mr. Drucker said.

Seems the focus within Moynihan has shifted to the hotel...

londonlawyer

July 21st, 2005, 01:47 AM

Is Vornado building two huge skyscrapers on 8th Ave.?

pianoman11686

July 21st, 2005, 01:52 AM

There are no official plans or renderings, but it seems they will almost certainly build a residential or mixed-use building on the northeast corner of 8th and 33rd, next to One Penn Plaza. I don't know of anything else they're planning further up or down the avenue. The always-vague plan of building a skyscraper on the Hotel Pennsylvania Site, at the southeast corner of 7th and 33rd, has recently been touted on skyscrapercity.com as a definite go. That, of course, is not happening. Not yet, at least. In any case, I think the building on 8th and 33rd will go up sooner.

pianoman11686

July 21st, 2005, 01:58 AM

Seems the focus within Moynihan has shifted to the hotel...

I wouldn't call it the focus. It's certainly an important element in financing the project. And it also gives the project more of a "historic restoration to result in tourist attraction" feel. I'm a little disappointed to hear the concourse will be on one level as opposed to two. It tells you something about the real dimensions of this project. The current Penn Station will continue to be a much bigger terminus for many more passengers than this new one, which will probably be just big enough to accommodate NJ Transit's growing needs for another 20 or 30 years. I see further expansion in the future, although it seems a lot depends on how many LIRR commuters will cease going through Penn at all, and travel directly into Grand Central.

BrooklynRider

July 21st, 2005, 10:04 AM

I'm trying to follow the "hotel" part of this. Is it possible that the Moynihan Station will comprise the open courtyard spaces of the old Farley Post Office and that the "hotel" will be built into the abandoned western portion of the building? I think that is what I'm reading from it. Any comments on that?

pianoman11686

July 21st, 2005, 12:35 PM

No, I don't think so. If you look at the renderings, the eastern portion of the building will have that courtyard area carved out, with the sculptural glass skylight above. Commuters will be exiting the platforms and entering into this area, and above them will be the walls of the hotel, encircling the open area on three sides. The western part of the building will be, for the most part, occupied by the postal service.

ablarc

July 21st, 2005, 12:40 PM

Commuters will be exiting the platforms and entering into this area, and above them will be the walls of the hotel, encircling the open area on three sides.
Those walls look a bit bland to me: openings punched in (probably) a brick wall. An architectural surface treatment, like 4-story colossal-order pilasters, would go a long way toward giving this space the grandeur that old Penn Station had.

pianoman11686

July 21st, 2005, 01:04 PM

Yeah they do look rather bland. I'm worried that if it's not done right, the main chamber will end up looking like a small atrium hotel - something akin to an Embassy Suites.

ablarc

July 21st, 2005, 01:45 PM

This project is better than existing Penn Station; but that's truly damning with faint praise--particularly as most travelers will continue to scurry in like rats in the old maze.

Surely we can do better.

To me, this looks like the transferred air rights are the real impetus for the developers to do this project. The station? Meh.

.

Fabrizio

July 21st, 2005, 05:15 PM

It´s going to be a fine addition to the city and it´s nice to see that there´s no high rise grafted on the building .....but yeah something looks ... I don´t know.... paltry about that main room.

BPC

July 21st, 2005, 06:36 PM

I like the new Penn Station design better than SOM's "potato chip" design, which reminded me somewhat of the renovated Soldier Field football stadium in Chicago, a clumsy attempt to graft something new on to a beautiful old building. The new Penn Station design seems more respectful of the Farley building.

lofter1

July 21st, 2005, 07:03 PM

I believe that window openings already exist in the upper floors of the eastern half of Farley Post Office, as that half of the building was originally designed with an open interior courtyard -- as can be seen in this image at nyc-architecture.com:

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID133-37.jpg

I agree that the transfer of air rights for the new building on 8th / 33rd is the big pay-off for this developer on the Farley / Moynihan project.

We can only hope that the actual work / design on the hotel part of the Moynihan project will be of high quality -- and not merely something done in a half-assed manner in order to satisfy the requirements of the air-rights transfer deal.

Over the past few days the hotel has been referred to as a "boutique" type hotel, so the song the developer is now singing is that this will be a high-end renovation. Keeping fingers crossed that it won't become a another banal "Marriott Courtyard".

czsz

July 21st, 2005, 08:38 PM

A commuter hotel for a commuter station...I could care less. When this project lost Amtrak, it also truly lost its significance.

JMGarcia

July 21st, 2005, 10:16 PM

^Amtrak will move there eventually. Things move ever so slowly here. Amtrak just needs the Acela disaster to become history and then it'll again be politically acceptable to talk about them moving.

fioco

July 21st, 2005, 10:55 PM

We should be careful looking a gift horse in the mouth. I kept my expectations in check; prepared to see the Moynihan station bleed away by a thousand cuts instigated by Congressional wrangling -- weren't some funds already slated to be diverted by Congress (er, Tom Delay)? And Hilary swung into action?

Back to the gift horse: speculation is fun, and some folks have the most fun when they're either worried sick or certain a disaster is in the happenng. Have your fun, but relax. A lot of "IFs" can change the role this station plays in Midtown. . . Beginning with NJT building a new Hudson River tunnel and additional platforms under 34th Street (possible, n'est-ce pas?) With the LIRR's completion of East Side access, which would free up some platforms for Metro-North. And just maybe -- for another generation, not mine -- the JFK Airtrain (via Jamaica) will use Moynihan as its West Side terminal.

Hell, if this thing actually gets built, I'll gladly walk an additional block west in order to wait in a sun-drenched atrium for my train to Long Island. Even if I have to walk two blocks east on the platform to reach the rear of the train (I sit in the rear cars anyway on my return trips).

Kvetch all you like, but I will pass the time pondering the possibilities. When despair seemed more appropriate, you clung to hope. Now that hope seems to spring . . . splat!? Not for me.

krulltime

July 22nd, 2005, 03:11 AM

I also like this new design than what has been presented before... I do like the open air thing... seems to be done in alot of new hubs these days. I also like the fact that they want to built this tower next to Penn Plaza. I didnt like that tower on top of penn station anyway. Yeah I dig the Hotel thing too.

I dont care if Amtrak wants to be in it... It is old news and they had say no.

nick-taylor

July 22nd, 2005, 05:33 AM

Does anyone here know the exact or rough idea as to to configuration of platforms and what they might look like? Also can anyone enlighten me whether the platforms are going to be in the same underground corridor style seen currently at the original Penn and GC, ie dark, cramped, ugly and third-world looking?

NYguy

July 22nd, 2005, 08:32 AM

nick-taylor

July 22nd, 2005, 09:28 AM

Is that information really that important? Do you really want to go around asking those questions?Well it is a reasonable question enquiring exactly if the platforms would be reminescent of the current Penn and GC platforms or are they going to look something totally different.

ASchwarz

July 22nd, 2005, 09:45 AM

They haven't released any renderings of the new platforms under the Moynihan addition.

I have seen preliminary renderings for the other major project at Penn: the Access to the Region's Core plan that will build an entire new underground station for NJ Transit to the immediate north and east of the existing Penn Station. The platforms in this project will be deep underground, deeper than even the existing Penn. This new station will connect to the existing Penn and the Moynihan expansion.

Access to the Region's core is actually much bigger and more important than the Moynihan expansion, but construction is still a couple years off.

http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/

ManhattanKnight

July 22nd, 2005, 09:45 AM

I believe that window openings already exist in the upper floors of the eastern half of Farley Post Office, as that half of the building was originally designed with an open interior courtyard

The courtyard and those windows are visible in this grainy photo taken this morning:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4148/farleycourtyard8on.jpg

BrooklynRider

July 22nd, 2005, 10:16 AM

...I have seen preliminary renderings for the other major project at Penn: the Access to the Region's Core plan that will build an entire new underground station for NJ Transit to the immediate north and east of the existing Penn Station. The platforms in this project will be deep underground, deeper than even the existing Penn. This new station will connect to the existing Penn and the Moynihan expansion...

That's a pretty immense project. Is it a cut and cover operation?

czsz

July 22nd, 2005, 12:49 PM

This new station will connect to the existing Penn and the Moynihan expansion...

It would have been nice to have had a rebuilt, centralised station, instead of a haphazard warren of add-ons to a remaining Penn stretching four or more east-west blocks...

ZippyTheChimp

July 22nd, 2005, 01:39 PM

That's a pretty immense project. Is it a cut and cover operation?
Mostly TBM
http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/images/ARC%20RCLC%206-29-05.pdf Page 13

Dynamicdezzy

July 22nd, 2005, 02:45 PM

TonyO

July 22nd, 2005, 03:22 PM

(I really do not want to get off topic but...) Does anyone if it is being considered to have an airtrain link to this station? Since their will be a hybrid train that will run on LIRR tracks for lower manhattan, Will Midtown be considered as well?

There hasn't been any discussion regarding this that I have heard of. JFK would be connected directly to lower manhattan only. NJTransit has a link to Newark that can be accessed from Penn and in the future Moynihan. The Giuliani administration was considering a subway link to LaGuardia but that would have used the existing MTA system - this idea is officially on hold/dead.

STT757

July 22nd, 2005, 04:32 PM

FOR RELEASE: IMMEDIATE CONTACT:
Monday, January 31, 2000 Eric Mangan (212) 803-3740

http://www.empire.state.ny.us

GARGANO, ESD SOLICIT INTEREST FOR "ONE-SEAT" RIDE TO CONNECT
MID-TOWN MANHATTAN AND JOHN F. KENNEDY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT

Empire State Development (ESD) Chairman Charles A. Gargano today announced that ESD issued a Request for Expressions of Interest (RFEI) for a "one-seat" rail access link between Midtown Manhattan and John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK). The service would ultimately provide a 25-minute direct train link between the new Farley-Pennsylvania Station and JFK.

"In 1996, Governor George Pataki unveiled his Masterlinks program, a comprehensive and integrated transportation plan geared towards improving access to the region's airports," Chairman Gargano said. "The program has already led to the AirTrain project to improve JFK's transportation services, and now another tremendous milestone is being reached.

"Today we are advancing efforts to provide the traveling public with a high quality, state-of-the-art "one-seat" rail ride between one of the nation's busiest international airports and America's busiest transportation center.

"Our redevelopment of Penn Station is bringing back its spectacular grandeur and dramatically improving travel services to Mid-Town Manhattan. A "one-seat" ride, similar to the highly successful Heathrow Express in London, would be another monumental achievement. It would demonstrate the power of the public-private partnership while providing long-overdue train-to-plane travel services," Gargano said.

ESD will solicit proposals for a public-private partnership to develop the "one-seat" rail ride. The RFEI is an important first step in creating a public-private partnership to provide "one-seat" service, and serves as the foundation for issuing specific requests for proposals in the near future.

Donald J. Carty, Chairman and CEO of American Airlines, endorsed the "one-seat" ride concept recently at the groundbreaking of America Airlines $1.2 billion new terminal project at JFK. Mr. Carty said, "Governor Pataki and Chairman Gargano are to be commended for launching this bold and innovative project. The one-seat ride will be a terrific boon for air travelers to and from Manhattan. When completed, passengers will be able to check in themselves and their luggage at Penn Station, board a train, and be at JFK in 25 minutes."

JetBlue Airways CEO David Neeleman said, "JetBlue is all about providing New Yorkers with a better travel experience for a very affordable price. Jetblue, New York's new low fare hometown airline, congratulates Governor George Pataki and Empire State Development Corporation Chairman Charles Gargano on this bold initiative in pursuit of a one-seat ride between JFK and Manhattan. The vision of the Governor and the ESD in planning the next steps for the JFK light rail project is critical for the efficient transportation of all New Yorkers."

JetBlue airways is New York's new low fare home town airline based at JFK starting service on February 11th to Fort Lauderdale and Buffalo, New York the week following. By the end of 2000 JetBlue will serve 11 cities with 10 brand new Airbus A320 aircraft.

The RFEI seeks to build upon two major transportation initiatives designed to provide improved rail and airport access, the AirTrain project and the redevelopment of Pennsylvania Station. A timeline on both projects is attached.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is responsible for the AirTrain project, which will provide rail service between JFK and Jamaica Station. The Port Authority would operate in tandem with a direct one-seat ride service. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) operates the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) from Penn Station to Jamaica Station.

The Pennsylvania Station Redevelopment Corporation is transforming the existing Penn Station into a world-class intermodal transportation and commercial facility inside the James A. Farley Post Office Building.

The Farley-Penn Station project includes flagship facilities for Amtrak intercity rail and is designed to incorporate fully integrated one-seat ride service between Farley and JFK. The project includes airline ticketing and baggage check-in, saving "one-seat" passengers valuable time and effort for domestic and international air travel.

Responses to the RFEI are due by 5:00 p.m. local time on March 17, 2000.

Charles A. Gargano is Chairman of Empire State Development Corporation (ESDC), the lead economic development agency for the State of New York. Mr. Gargano also serves as the Vice-Chairman of the New York-New Jersey Port Authority, as well as the Chairman of the Pennsylvania Station Redevelopment Corporation.

The RFEI will solicit broad proposals from the respondents on their approach to achieving the following objectives:

A safe, clean, comfortable travel experience for airport bound passengers;

Utilization of existing MTA LIRR mainline and proposed AirTrain railroads to create a direct rail connection between Farley-Penn Station and JFK (approximately 17 miles);

Provision of a direct, one-seat ride service that would allow for (a) the necessary AirTrain light rail service between Jamaica Station and JFK, (b) the future implementation of a one-seat ride subway connection at Howard Beach, and (c) a stop at Jamaica Station;

Resolution of issues involving MTA LIRR tunnel and mainline peak hour capacity in the context of both current LIRR service and after the 63rd Street East-Side Access to Grand Central Terminal becomes available.

Build-out of airline baggage sorting room and airline baggage conveyor system at the Farley Station;

Operation of a direct service that offers a 25-minute connection time between Farley-Penn Station and JFK, regular schedule with dependable 15-20 minute head-ways between train departures, the availability of high level of passenger service and amenities including airline ticketing and baggage check-in services, automated ticketing, on-board passenger information systems, and other customer services.
If interested in receiving a copy of the RFEI, please call 212-803-3741.

###

Timeline Leading To One-Seat Ride Proposal

May, 1996. Governor George E. Pataki proposes the Masterlinks program, outlining a comprehensive transportation plan to provide New York City and the region with the finest, integrated transportation network in the world. A component of the Masterlinks calls for the state, local, and regional authorities to work together towards reaching this goal and emphasizes improved access to the region's airports.

July, 1998. As part of the Masterlinks program, a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) concerning New York airport access is signed by New York State, New York City, the Borough of Queens, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, and the Port Authority. The MOA commits to the construction of a light rail system, AirTrain, for providing access to JFK. The MOA further directs that the AirTrain be compatible with a future one-seat ride to Midtown Manhattan.

Summer, 1998. The Port Authority begins construction on the $1.825 billion AirTrain system. Service is expected to begin in 2003.

May, 1999. Plans unveiled for the new $565 million Pennsylvania Station in the James A. Farley Post Office in New York City, expected to create 7,600 new jobs and $65 million in tax revenues during its construction phase.

The current Pennsylvania Station is already the nation's busiest transportation facility, and the project will transform the post office into the world's premier intermodal train station. The new station is expected to create 1,600 new, permanent jobs, opening the West Side of Manhattan for further economic growth.

The Grand Opening of the Farley-Pennsylvania Station facility is expected in 2004.

January, 2000. RFEI issued to solicit interest for a "one-seat" ride between JFK and Farley-Penn Station.

Spring, 2000. Projected date to issue Request for Proposals (RFP) for the "one-seat" ride.

Summer, 2000. Projected date to select team to develop, build, and operate the "one-seat" ride.

Fall, 2001. Estimated completion of engineering and regulatory review for the "one-seat" ride.

2004. Projected start of the "one-seat" ride revenue service between JFK and Farley-Penn Station.

billyblancoNYC

July 22nd, 2005, 05:20 PM

Nice, 2004...what a ride.

This will not happen, probably, but how would this have been accomplished.

The more ridiculous this is the cacelling of the N extension to LGA. For $600million, this was a hell of a deal that would have been amazing for the city and Astoria.

STT757

July 22nd, 2005, 06:30 PM

Nice, 2004...what a ride.

.

Im laughing really hard but at the same time it's sad that nothing happened.

NYguy

July 22nd, 2005, 06:48 PM

Well it is a reasonable question enquiring exactly if the platforms would be reminescent of the current Penn and GC platforms or are they going to look something totally different.

The reason I responded is because you've asked that question before. The train platforms will be train platforms. They are supposed to be exposed to direct sunlight.

lofter1

July 22nd, 2005, 08:41 PM

The courtyard and those windows are visible in this grainy photo taken this morning:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4148/farleycourtyard8on.jpg

Thanks for the clarification...

That's the best photo I've seen showing the existing conditions within Farley.

And also shows how well the dear-deceased potato chip would have fit into the existing building (the recessed area at the center) without all that much tear-down.

nick-taylor

July 23rd, 2005, 09:40 AM

The reason I responded is because you've asked that question before. The train platforms will be train platforms. They are supposed to be exposed to direct sunlight.Yes I have asked that question before....but nobody gave a reply to my query on SSP. I also wasn't questioning whether or not there will be train platforms, but how much of the platform space will be exposed to sunlight - it can't be much considering the stuctures above seem to obscure all signs of the platforms other than the escalators down to the platforms. Sounds a bit like the mistakes made at GC and Penn are being repeated in a sort of twisted fashion.

http://www.nylovesbiz.com/images/050629_Farley_oldPenn.jpg

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-07/18537729.jpg

ablarc

July 23rd, 2005, 11:22 AM

Nick, American travelers rarely enjoy the light-filled, glass-covered platforms you find in England. We scurry onto trains in this country; it's something we're used to doing in the gloom.

.

BPC

July 23rd, 2005, 12:25 PM

Sounds a bit like the mistakes made at GC and Penn are being repeated in a sort of twisted fashion.

The mistakes made at Grand Central? You must be kidding. Grand Central is one of the most brilliantly-designed train stations in all the world. Just think of how many sets of stairs you need to go up or down to get to the commuter tracks. That's right, none. It is all done with ramps, whose inclines are so slight you barely even notice. And both inside and outside, the site teems with pedestrian traffic and street life. New York should be so lucky to ever see a train station that good again.

ablarc

July 23rd, 2005, 12:28 PM

Grand Central is one of the most brilliantly-designed train stations in all the world. Just think of how many sets of stairs you need to go up or down to get to the commuter tracks. That's right, none. It is all done with ramps, whose inclines are so slight you barely even notice. And both inside and outside, the site teems with pedestrian traffic and street life. New York should be so lucky to ever see a train station that good again.
Right, but you have to admit the platforms are gloomy.

JMGarcia

July 23rd, 2005, 12:32 PM

ablarc

July 23rd, 2005, 12:40 PM

Manhattan simple doesn't have the space (at least economically) to expose our underground platforms to much light. The air rights above them are too useful.

If we had more space and our train came in at grade rather than well underground it might be a different story.
All true, yet you can see that enlarging the escalator pits would let in more light (as in the original Penn Station); and Calatrava's going to bathe his WTC platforms in light.

Whether it's New York, Venice or Oshkosh, you have room for what you make room for.

BPC

July 23rd, 2005, 02:45 PM

Right, but you have to admit the platforms are gloomy.

I don't and they're not.

ablarc

July 23rd, 2005, 03:07 PM

^ Are we talking about the same place?

JMGarcia

July 23rd, 2005, 08:03 PM

All true, yet you can see that enlarging the escalator pits would let in more light (as in the original Penn Station); and Calatrava's going to bathe his WTC platforms in light.

Whether it's New York, Venice or Oshkosh, you have room for what you make room for.

True, you get what you make but it has never been a NY thing to waste space that could be making money. ;)

I'm still not sure how Calatrava is going to bring much light down to the PATH station. The glass "bird" is over on Church St. east of the new Greenwich. While it will certainly bring light down there, the PATH platforms are west of the new Greenwich (and the #1) so I can't see much light getting over there.

dbhstockton

July 23rd, 2005, 08:05 PM

From http://www.archrecord.com/news/daily/archives/050719ny.asp ----

...Eleven boarding platforms will service Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, and some Amtrak passengers. The large, undulating glass-and-steel canopy will allow daylight into the space. Carpenter says this help recreate the awe-inspiring sense of scale that passengers once felt when they entered Penn Station. Natural light will be also be filtered down to the tracks via glass “moats” surrounding the building, and through light tubes within the space’s large steel columns...

BPC

July 23rd, 2005, 10:39 PM

^ Are we talking about the same place?

I am talking about this place:

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/media/photo/2005-07/18439578.jpg

Through the brilliance of the GC's architects, the trains pull up just a few feet beyond the central terminal, on the same level (!), through lovely portals such as this one:

http://anthonyjhicks.com/ajh/pictures.nsf/viewer/27A6EAA45C37046480256DF300544A53/$FILE/PICT3792.jpg

No stairs. Just ramps set along a slight incline. I agree that New York is unlikely to repeat such "mistakes" in the future, either in Penn Station, the new Calatrava station, or elsewhere.

ablarc

July 23rd, 2005, 10:55 PM

Sorry, BPC, I was talking about the platforms where you actually board the trains. The hall is magnificent, I agree.

nick-taylor

July 24th, 2005, 10:47 AM

lofter1

July 24th, 2005, 11:36 AM

Natural light will be also be filtered down to the tracks via glass “moats” surrounding the building...
I take it that the "moats" are the recessed areas that now exist between the sidewalk and Farley (now covered in cement) that are shown illuminated in the rendering (at right center):

http://www.westsidestadium.org/content/newsarchives/050629_Farley_aerial.jpg

TLOZ Link5

July 24th, 2005, 04:56 PM

Right, but you have to admit the platforms are gloomy.

That's because the MetLife Building is directly above. I think that it replaced a shed of sorts; I could be wrong. The previous two Grand Centrals at that site had large glass boarding sheds.

BPC

July 24th, 2005, 08:47 PM

BPC - I was talking about the actual platforms which are beyond shoddy, their horrific and are the complete opposite to what the concourses are.

Yes, I understood that, but the actual platforms are just the last dozen steps on to the train. The experience of an MTA rider is walking through the terminal, and then through those lovely portals on to the platform and the train, without having to use a single stair from street to train. The setup is far superior to even the old Penn Station, with those steep stairways, both from practical and aesthetic standpoints.

Alonzo-ny

July 24th, 2005, 09:57 PM

Im actually looking forward to this now more than before, the reason being i sat out on the steps looking on msg and i think when this is built it will be a nice space to hang and meet people much like the stairs of the met

ablarc

July 25th, 2005, 04:28 PM

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/media/photo/2005-07/18439578.jpg
In the Stone Age, after I'd pass beneath the long-gone Albers, those sunbeams often dramatized the escalator descent from the Pan Am Building, where I worked.

You don't see them as often these days, and when you do they're less pronounced, since most folks don't smoke anymore, and New York's air is much cleaner.

.

BPC

July 25th, 2005, 06:20 PM

In the Stone Age, after I'd pass beneath the long-gone Albers, those sunbeams often dramatized the escalator descent from the Pan Am Building, where I worked.

You don't see them as often these days, and when you do they're less pronounced, since most folks don't smoke anymore, and New York's air is much cleaner.

.

I've actually never seen GC with anywhere near that much sunlight. Judging by the clothes, the photograph appears to be pre-war, and even then there seems to be some nifty photography work causing the sharp contrast between light and dark. (Maybe someone who understands photography can explain how that is done.) I really posted it because I thought it was a beautiful shot, because it appeared to be of the same vintage as the (equally beautiful) Penn Station shot above it, and because it helped illustrate my larger point that a commuter's experience at Grand Central is generally one bathed in sunlight, even if the last dozen steps or so to the train are not.

Fabrizio

July 25th, 2005, 06:34 PM

I´ll bet anything those pronounced sunbeams are the result of darkroom work: dodging and burning.

ablarc

July 25th, 2005, 06:57 PM

I´ll bet anything those pronounced sunbeams are the result of darkroom work: dodging and burning.
If you bet that, you'd be only partly right, Fabrizio. That used to be the standard condition on a sunny day; I could count on it. The reason: particulates in the air. These came from cigarette smoke, dust from the sweepers, and especially the unbelievably foul air that New York used to have. When you blew your nose, it was black. You could wipe your window sill squeaky clean, come back an hour later, and feel the crunch of the grit.

Back then there were no exhaust standards and New York had much more industry.

ryan

July 25th, 2005, 07:05 PM

I've seen similar light conditions even in the past few years on a sunny day. It's a big dark room with a few small windows, so the light that makes it in is dramatic. To make the light read like that in a photo though would take some detailed processing, but most artful photography is manipulated.

Fabrizio

July 26th, 2005, 04:52 AM

Ablarc: the first time I visited NYC was in 1965 (and then came to live there in the 70´s and part of the 80´s)... I know how filthy the air was. The air in Rome is still dirty compared to NYC, but this darkroom trickery of highlighting light and shadow is done all the time to photos of ( for instance) the Pantheon, with it´s tiny round skylight and dark interior.... in order to point up the thin beam of light that the interior is famous for. Dodging and burning goes back to the earliest art photography.

nick-taylor

July 26th, 2005, 08:22 AM

Yes, I understood that, but the actual platforms are just the last dozen steps on to the train. The experience of an MTA rider is walking through the terminal, and then through those lovely portals on to the platform and the train, without having to use a single stair from street to train. The setup is far superior to even the old Penn Station, with those steep stairways, both from practical and aesthetic standpoints.I'm not talking about the situation of no stairs (most stations in the world have this where the platforms are at grade and then go down into tunnels). Its the platforms that are an utter mess and horrific, hence my concern for these new platforms.

ASchwarz

July 26th, 2005, 10:46 AM

I'm not talking about the situation of no stairs (most stations in the world have this where the platforms are at grade and then go down into tunnels). Its the platforms that are an utter mess and horrific, hence my concern for these new platforms.

What are you talking about? How are the platforms at Penn or Grand Central "horrific" and an "utter mess"? They're just fine. What exactly are you asking for? They're in perfectly good shape. Have you actually stood on these platforms?

Your initial point is even crazier. Platforms don't just randomly descend into tunnels. They are basically always at grade. I can't think of any completely/primarily underground terminals anywhere on earth outside of Penn/Grand Central and Brooklyn's Flatbush Terminal. None of the major London stations are primarily underground, none in Paris, none in Tokyo. Smaller commuter rail stations (Paris RER, German S- Bahn, Long Island Rail Road, Tokyo) are quite often underground.

TonyO

July 26th, 2005, 11:09 AM

NY Sun
7/26/05

Maura Moynihan Out To Make Father's Station Dream a Reality

LAUREN MECHLING

I' think about him all the time," Maura Moynihan said, before taking another tiny sip from her glass of pinot noir. "He was an amazing New Yorker."

The man she was talking about wasn't her father, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the late senator. Ms. Moynihan was having an Alexander Hamilton moment, and she put a $10 bill face up on the table for easy ogling.

"We'll do an Alexander Hamilton session sometime," she said. "I have to sit you down and give you my whole presentation about why he's the only Founding Father you have to be really obsessed with. His grave is at Trinity Church. Let's go to his gravesite!"

Maura Moynihan wears her passions on her sleeve, which couldn't have hurt her fight for Moynihan Station, her father's pet cause, which she took on after his death in 2003. The $818 million station would serve riders of the Long Island Rail Road, New Jersey Transit, and perhaps Amtrak. People say Ms. Moynihan brought a face to the fight for it, but to reduce her to a face would be missing the point. Even her face is more than a face: It's an instrument of high drama, with an expression that's perpetually in flux. She can look happy, surprised, sad, or sultry - but never bored.

She was looking positively delighted at the press conference last week at which Governor Pataki, Mayor Bloomberg, and the chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation, Charles Gargano, announced the choice of developers to convert the old Farley Post Office into the train station her father had envisioned. Even in the shadow of the black umbrella she was using to block out the scorching sun, Ms. Moynihan was the star of the event, a small-boned, red-haired knockout in a kimono-style shirt and a cache of Tibetan jewelry.

Maura Moynihan is many things: painter; writer; beauty; poet; single mother; speaker of Tibetan, Hindi, and Urdu; standup comic; charmer; screenwriter; defender of Tibetan refugees; Democratic fund-raiser; lifelong yoga practitioner; muse of the pop artist Andy Warhol's; ballet lover; hostess; enthusiastic disco dancer; rabble-rouser.

At the press conference, all the speakers addressed "Maura" - except Mr. Bloomberg, who spoke to a "Moira."

Asked if she thought there was a correlation between the recent rejection of the Jets stadium in the West 30s and the sudden green-lighting of Moynihan Station in the same neighborhood, a glowing Ms. Moynihan responded: "There's definitely more energy out there. Ask the astrologer how this all happened.

"Oh - hi, baby," she called out to a friend, an important-looking government official who was mounting the steps of the post office. She waved at him as if he were a long-lost child, and her silver bangles chinkled as they crashed against one other.

"She's not your standard business type lobbyist," the director of Rep. Jerrold Nadler's Manhattan office, Linda Rosenthal, said. She met with Ms. Moynihan a few months ago.

"She's very opinionated and she doesn't mince words," Ms. Rosenthal said. "She was not going to let this project stagnate."

As a boy growing up in Hell's Kitchen, Pat Moynihan shined shoes and hawked papers in the old Penn Station. Its 1962 dismantling broke his heart, and in 1993, he secured the appropriation of about $800 million in federal funds to convert the Farley building into an elegant train station and retail hub. Following her father's death, three years after he left the Senate, Ms. Moynihan wrote a letter to Mr. Pataki beseeching him to keep her father's plan going. Mr. Pataki responded with a letter that Ms. Moynihan calls "beautiful," and he and Mr. Gargano are the men whom she credits most for last week's good news.

In her years pressing for the project, even during the presidential campaign when nobody really cared about a train station, she persevered, spending her days on the phone, appearing on TV, working as a consultant with the Regional Planning Association, writing editorials, setting up meetings with the city's power players, and checking in regularly with Senators Schumer and Clinton, both longtime supporters of the plan.

This May, Ms. Moynihan organized a fund-raising event at the Farley-building. Mr. Bloomberg and the New York senators were keynote speakers, and a drink called the Moynihan Station was invented for the occasion.

"I just tried to keep it from dying," Ms. Moynihan said. "I tried to make them remember it was there."

Moynihan Station will occupy the 1.4 million square feet of the now-vacant James A. Farley Post Office, on Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street, across the street from Penn Station, which Ms. Moynihan calls a "pit under a basketball court." The new station has had few opponents, though some Republicans in Congress tried, unsuccessfully, last year to rescind some of the federal funds that had been set aside for the project.

Proponents of the new station say it will not only spur New York's economy with the creation of 10,000 temporary and 3,300 full-time jobs, but also redress the great crime of 1962.The stadium has been touted in addition as a national security measure, as it will have 33 exits, in contrast to Penn Station, where it of ten takes commuters 10 minutes to make it from their train to the street.

"You walk in there," Ms. Moynihan said of the current terminal for the Long Island Rail Road and Amtrak, "and you're taking your life in your hands. All you need is one pipe bomb in the Krispy Kreme and it's all over."

The executive vice president of the Regional Planning Association, Thomas K. Wright, has been advocating the plan for several years, and he worked with Ms. Moynihan over the past year.

"It was her coming on the scene that picked things up," he said. "She's terrific, very persuasive, because she's so dedicated to this project. When people talk to her, they feel as if they're hearing her father talk."

One of Ms. Moynihan's best friends, Wilson Kidde, whom she met through Warhol in the early 1980s, said: "I think her gadfly role has been instrumental in getting it off the ground. She made sure that it got ink. For a long time it was overshadowed by the stadium and nobody was paying attention."

Her flair for the dramatic can't have hurt, either. Ms. Moynihan seems to be genetically incapable of delivering a sentence flatly. As members of the media swarmed around her after the press conference, she could be overheard rattling off such phrases as "an act of urbancide" and "the only office I'm running for is mayor of Moynihan Station," in her made-for-the-stage voice.

When she agreed to go out for drinks with The New York Sun, Ms. Moynihan wanted to meet first at a NoLita boutique specializing in Tibetan clothing. Between wrapping handmade scarves around her face and trying on a fur hat for fun, she gave the store's proprietor a packet of printouts about volunteering for Tibetan refugees to pass on to his daughter. "Okay," she said to the reporter when she was ready. "How about a daiquiri?"

Maura Moynihan was born 48 years ago yesterday in Albany, where her father was working as an aide to Governor Harriman. When she was 5, her family moved to Washington, D.C., when her father went to work in the Kennedy administration as assistant secretary of labor.

"I never met him, but I saw him as a child," she said of the slain president, adopting the love-struck tone she also uses for Hamilton. "He's the most beautiful man I've ever seen in my life."

The Moynihan family resettled on the campus of Harvard, where Pat Moynihan taught. They lived down the street from John Kenneth Galbraith, who at age 96 still lives in Cambridge. Ms. Moynihan plans to visit him later this week. "He's my mentor and my friend," she said. "What a wonderful friend. Oh! Ninety-six! He's 96! In Asia, you are taught that you must always spend time with your elders. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because you'll learn from your elders. I love that about Asian culture. They would never put someone in an old age home."

As a kid, Maura Moynihan played the part of the socially conscious Cambridge child of the '60s, with the requisite long hair worn with a center part, and the requisite fondness for the Beatles.

"I remember when the Sergeant Pepper album was released in fall of '68, all the Harvard intellectuals decided to embrace the Beatles as being geniuses," Ms. Moynihan said. "My dad listened to them, too, but he really loved Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. When he was elected to the Senate in '82, the first call of congrats came from Ginger Rogers. He loved that! That was his dream girl! I'd forgotten that!"

President Nixon appointed her father ambassador to India when she was 15, and the family moved to New Delhi, which she says she knew she loved the minute she stepped off the plane. "I smelled it, I smelled in India," she said. "It's my favorite country in the world. It's a very civilized country."

Ms. Moynihan returned to America to pursue Eastern studies at Harvard. Her roommate was Mandy Grunwald, now a powerful Democratic political consultant, who is still a good friend, but she says she didn't have the time of her life at Harvard.

She had just graduated from college when she met Warhol at the New York disco Xenon, and she went on to work for his magazine and television show for five years.

Her next phase found her in India and Tibet, working as an advocate for Tibetan refugees. "I know Tibet became chic in the '90s. There was this moment when everyone was going to Free Tibet concerts," Ms. Moynihan said. "But for many years, Tibetans lived in obscurity and deep poverty, and I had known them in that period, so for me it was never a fad." She stuck out her arm to show a thick silver bracelet she bought from a Tibetan woman 31 years ago and has worn every day since.

It was during that period that she met the writer John Avedon, son of the photographer Richard Avedon. They married, had a son, and divorced a year later.

For a brief while, she and her then-1-year-old son moved in with her parents in Washington and she worked at the press office of the Holocaust Museum. "It was a hard time," Ms. Moynihan said. "In D.C., you don't get invited places if you're a single mom."

In the 1990s she wrote screenplays, one of which she sold to Oliver Stone, whom she met in Tibet.

"I made a ton of money," she said. "I did it to support my fiction writing, which has always been my dream."

Now she gets invited to plenty of parties. She lives with her son in an apartment in Stuyvesant Town, where she's known for putting on parties of her own. During the presidential election, she threw homemade fund-raising events for Senator Kerry nearly every week.

"She's made an art out of life," her friend Wilson Kidde said. "You'll go to her parties and you'll run into everyone from a Grateful Dead songwriter to a Tibetan monk to Moby."

Now that the Moynihan Station seems to be on course, she's focusing on finishing up the final edits of "Covergirl: Reality Fiction," a novel due out from publisher Judith Regan's imprint Regan Books later this year. Then she'll be then taking off to Thailand, where she's going to spend a month writing and painting and otherwise catching her breath.

And yet, the fight for the station isn't over. An Environmental Impact Statement has to be submitted and approved, and, of course, anything can happen. "I'll be worried," Maura Moynihan said, "until I hear the sound of jackhammers."

nick-taylor

July 27th, 2005, 05:24 AM

What are you talking about? How are the platforms at Penn or Grand Central "horrific" and an "utter mess"? They're just fine. What exactly are you asking for? They're in perfectly good shape. Have you actually stood on these platforms?

Your initial point is even crazier. Platforms don't just randomly descend into tunnels. They are basically always at grade. I can't think of any completely/primarily underground terminals anywhere on earth outside of Penn/Grand Central and Brooklyn's Flatbush Terminal. None of the major London stations are primarily underground, none in Paris, none in Tokyo. Smaller commuter rail stations (Paris RER, German S- Bahn, Long Island Rail Road, Tokyo) are quite often underground.I have actually stood on the platforms at GC and Penn because I've actually used the commuter rail at both (and on numerous occasions over several years) and they were both not pleasurable experiences to say the least. Concrete catacombs is not too far off of reality.

Moorgate is the only rail termini in London to be underground, it is entirely sub-surface and dates back to 1863 when the first underground trains ran through. Commuter rail terminating at Moorgate actually run alongside the three tube lines that run through (another tube line being further underground). There are only about a dozen platforms and its one of the smaller termini of London, but its a step up from what the current Penn is (Moorgate still has a good deal of art deco and high victorian amongst the more 'modern' look). The other 12 termini are either at grade (Fenchurch St, Cannon St, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Victoria, Paddington, Marylebone, Euston, St Pancras + Kings Cross) in large cuttings/trenches (Liverpool Street) or elevated entirely on immense viaducts (London Bridge). My personal opinion is that when it comes to stations, New York is great at making the concourses and ticket halls, etc...but when it actually comes to the full package it somehow stumbles, falls at the last hurdle at making decent platforms.

I would actually go as far as to say that the actual platforms were an after-thought of the architects/engineers and on what is a New York forum thats going to sting, but its actual criticism that I really think needs to be pointed out. It worries me that they managed to bodge the platforms up at GC (and to an extent at the old Penn), when the rest of the station was excellent and what now would be the result of this extension when the extravagances of GC are simply unattainable in todays world! I await with scepticism, but hope my fears aren't realised. Then again when I've used the commuter rail system it has only been as a tourist so its not like I have to use it everyday like the thousands of commuters that do, thank god! ;)

London though too lost a major station thanks to the Hitler, Luftwaffe Demolition & Co and 'genius'of 60's planners. The most famous being Euston. Very few pictures unfortunately exist of the old station and those that do only show the immense Euston arch and not the station behind the arch (which had halls larger than Grand Central), it was built entirely in the classical order and with several large train sheds of the highest design - if it was around in its old form it would most likely be resembled to a Greek temple more with trains terminating than a station. The replacelement is ugly and resembles more an airport terminal but is more 'open' than Penn. One of my interests would be to see the entire station re-built in the original style...the cost though would be pretty damn astronomical I suspect though! London fortunately though had more termini and most of the original stations remain intact or have had 'added' bits.

TonyO

July 27th, 2005, 08:57 AM

I have actually stood on the platforms at GC and Penn because I've actually used the commuter rail at both (and on numerous occasions over several years) and they were both not pleasurable experiences to say the least. Concrete catacombs is not too far off of reality.

I'm not sure what your point is here but this is what they call "by design". The tracks and platforms that enter Penn (and thus Moynihan) and Grand Central are underground for space reasons. Therefore, you get a catacomb effect. Besides, people here don't wait on the platforms, they wait in the terminal and when the track is chosen then they go to the train directly.

lofter1

July 27th, 2005, 09:05 AM

The tracks and platforms that enter Penn (and thus Moynihan) and Grand Central are underground for space reasons. Therefore, you get a catacomb effect. There is nothing horrific about them - you've taken a subway.
One "horrific" aspect of many platforms in NYC (subway lines included) are the placement of support columns which leave very narrow passage along some sections of platform between the tracks and columns. Add to this staircases / kiosks / elevators etc.; in many areas the room for passage along the platforms is barely adequate -- especially during rush hours when the platforms are crowded.

TonyO

July 27th, 2005, 09:54 AM

One "horrific" aspect of many platforms in NYC (subway lines included) are the placement of support columns which leave very narrow passage along some sections of platform between the tracks and columns. Add to this staircases / kiosks / elevators etc.; in many areas the room for passage along the platforms is barely adequate -- especially during rush hours when the platforms are crowded.

You're talking about infrastructure that was designed and built 50-100 years ago. They didn't have our sensibilities of safety and comfort and to 'fix' it now would be cost prohibitive and a waste when there are so many more important uses.

BrooklynRider

July 27th, 2005, 10:14 AM

You're talking about infrastructure that was designed and built 50-100 years ago. They didn't have our sensibilities of safety and comfort and to 'fix' it now would be cost prohibitive and a waste when there are so many more important uses.

But, they did have the volume back then. Downtown was the primary business district, which makes the design of the 2/3 Wall Street Station just incredibly poor.

JMGarcia

July 27th, 2005, 12:32 PM

The design of the 2/3 Wall St. station was dictated by the fact they had to do cut and cover of a very narrow street to build it. It simply wasn't feasible to carve into the basements of the building there at the time. They would've collapsed. Also, considering it was built by a private, for profit, company I can't see how they could've encroached on the private basements of surrounding buildings.

Generally speaking, the profit motive has always been too strong to warrant the large open spaces needed for grand platforms in NY. Not only was the profit motive too strong, but the civic motive was too small. If NY was the US capitol I'm sure that would've changed somewhat.

Citytect

July 27th, 2005, 04:10 PM

Which is to say our platforms are rather, erm, utilitarian (at best) and lacking any aesthetic charm. Why is this a debate? It's true. There are, of course, plenty of reasons why this is the case, but it's still true.

lofter1

July 27th, 2005, 07:02 PM

They are what they are -- existing platforms are far from great and won't be improved because of
1) money and
2) space.
But there is no reason that NYC / MTA can't learn from past mistakes and do better in the future (although the Moynihan platforms are probably bound by the existing tracks and therefore will be a repeat of what was done before).

BrooklynRider

July 27th, 2005, 10:30 PM

Well, the City, State and Feds regularly fund widening and expansion of roads and highways through the use of tax dollars and eminent domain. Maybe it is time to do a subterranean land grab from big property owners to accomodate the people who use mass transit rather than helicopters and limos.

[end of angry rant]

lofter1

July 27th, 2005, 10:44 PM

Now that would be a good use of "eminent domain"!!

JMGarcia

July 28th, 2005, 10:48 AM

When was the last time a road was widened in Manhattan?

nick-taylor

July 29th, 2005, 05:23 PM

I'm not sure what your point is here but this is what they call "by design". The tracks and platforms that enter Penn (and thus Moynihan) and Grand Central are underground for space reasons. Therefore, you get a catacomb effect. Besides, people here don't wait on the platforms, they wait in the terminal and when the track is chosen then they go to the train directly.My understanding is that the platforms are literally in one giant cutting, a sort of giant sub-surface station. Other stations around the world are built in cuttings, the difference is that they tend to have vast train sheds over these cuttings, eg London Liverpool Street (ie from street level you go down into the cutting, my pic here (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7905/img03004cq.jpg) shows this with a double decker in view to the right, platforms down to the right), while in New York the philosophy was to bury them under avenues and buildings undoubtedly as a revenue booste and to save costs. Liepzig Hauptbahnhof (http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/7/7e/Leipzig-Hauptbahnhof-overview.jpg) (city of 0.5mn in Germany) is a very good example of a very large concourse connected directly to 6 train sheds. The station though is not in a cutting and the amount of tracks leading out are far too many! You can tell I like my termini ;)

The result is with GC you have a large hall and just a few corridors, but with the old Penn you at least got a sign of a train shed (albeit most of it covering a concourse and shrouding the platforms in darkness) and that is now unfortunately gone.

Also what tends to happen in London is the people don't stand on the platform waiting for the train (this is the same in other cities around the world), as commuters tend to know when 'their' train goes. When I commute back from London Liverpool Street, I come through down the main entrance, check as I walk towards the platform on the massive timetable boards that state the time and destinations of the train for any announcements and then go through the gates on to the platform and into the train home. The entire terminus is 'one' large room with various sized train sheds and handles roughly the same amount of people that Penn does each day.

If I was a New Yorker I would be petitioning to get the old station re-built with an extended train shed to cover all the tracks!

'hint hint'

;)

JMGarcia

July 29th, 2005, 05:32 PM

Again, the land above the tracks is too valuable in NY to just cover it with a shed. The GC tracks have the Met Life and Helmsley Building on top of them as well as a large number of other towers. The underground platforms basically take up the area from 42nd to 50th Streets from Lexington to Madison Ave.

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/gct61.html

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/GCT61.plan.jpg

ASchwarz

July 29th, 2005, 05:32 PM

Nick, the platforms at Grand Central and Penn are both fairly deep underground. They are nothing like at Liverpool Street or at any other major European rail hub. There are giant office towers built directly above the platforms at Grand Central and Penn. What you are describing makes no sense for Manhattan. The commuter rail lines leading in and out of Manhattan are virtually all underground.

There are already European-style train sheds at Newark Penn Station and at Coney Island. Jamaica Station in Queens has a huge new glass train shed. There's another train shed at Hoboken Terminal, though its nothing special.

BPC

July 29th, 2005, 05:37 PM

There are already European-style train sheds at Newark Penn Station and Jamaica Station in Queens has a huge new glass train shed.

As well as an elegant one in Hoboken.

ASchwarz

July 29th, 2005, 05:44 PM

As well as an elegant one in Hoboken.

Hoboken Terminal is quite elegant; I retract my dismissal of the station. There will be an additional opportunity for a train shed with East Side Access. A sizable new station is being planned for the Sunnyside Yards in Queens. It's supposed to anchor the Long Island City business district.

TLOZ Link5

July 30th, 2005, 02:44 AM

When was the last time a road was widened in Manhattan?

When Robert Moses widened part of First Avenue in anticipation of the construction of the United Nations?

(Of course, the UN complex was eventually built a few blocks north of the widened section of First...)

nick-taylor

July 30th, 2005, 08:37 AM

JMGarcia - Valuable indeed, but asthetically pleasing? Also its not like other cities in the world had lower costs per m2 of land. Now I'm unsure of the historical data for comparisons, but I wouldn't be suprised that Paris and London were more expensive per m2 in the world at the time of GC (ie around 1910) than New York, yet the stations remained in their form. It wasn't until Hitler, Luftwaffe & Co which ensured every single of the 13 termini was hit by various bombs (a single bomb in 1917 killed some 162 people at London Liverpool Street) and led to a few being 'altered' and then the subsequent 60's planners that blighted both cities.

One thing I never understood was the immense amount of platforms that must have increased the costs to obscene levels. 44 platforms on two levels is perhaps the craziest case of over-expansion I know of. For comparison, London Waterloo and London Victoria which both handle roughly as many people each day as Grand Central does on the average day, have 25 and 19 platforms respectively. All three stations had far higher ridership in the past also. Had there been less platforms, then I could have seen money spent on making the actual platforms more efficient and better looking!!!!

To be honest, had I never actually used GC in the first place and just admired the concourse area then I wouldn't be here, but just going down there was like going to another world - absolutely shocking and horrific. What I would be interested to know is to the depth of the platforms. I always assumed that it the track laying was a cut and cover method with the roads and buildings above. Then again would you rather have a train shed that showered the trains, passengers and platforms in natural sunlight or the Metlife?

Also the termini being mentioned aren't in Manhattan which is where the definitive hubs and spectacular termini designs should be found! They also aren't exactly of a high standard (eg Coney Is.).

JMGarcia

July 30th, 2005, 10:54 AM

^I'm not trying to claim they are aesthetically pleasing. I am trying to explain why NY does not build like London and Paris, or other major European hubs. No where in Europe has ever had the highly dense, highly concentrated office populations that NY built for during the time these stations were built. It was simply so profitable to build them this way that it made no sense for the private companies that built them to do otherwise.

Costs aside, Manhattan has limited land area and very finite limits. It is somewhat unique in that. Most other major cities never had the psychological limits of there only being so much space.

Finally, NY is addicted to its street grid. Especially at Grand Central, a large shed covering many blocks would have disrupted that completely in one of the most congested parts of the city.

Grand Central is vastly overbuilt for its actual usage. Projections for growth in rail travel at the time never materialized. Intercity rail especially shrank rather than grew.

dbhstockton

July 30th, 2005, 11:30 AM

Nobody has mentioned that the tradition of the great sheds dates to the era of steam locomotives. Ventilation was needed. That era passed around the turn of the century when electric power became the norm in large cities, opening up the space above the tracks to development (allowing for subways, too). At Grand Central that means not just MetLife, but Park avenue to, what, 125th st? A shed would have meant no Terminal City.

ablarc

July 30th, 2005, 08:58 PM

The view to the Farley Building and the old Pennsylvania Station, 1931:

http://66.230.220.70/images/post/NY/farley.jpg

lofter1

July 30th, 2005, 09:23 PM

Wow -- that's a terrific picture.

As can be seen, Farley in '31 consisted only of the building on the eastern half of the block (not certain when the western portion was constructed).

What I would give to have seen NYC from 1920 - 1960!!!

nick-taylor

July 31st, 2005, 12:24 PM

Does anyone have estimate platform lengths at Penn - max of 200-300m and the lengths of blocks going westwards?

BrooklynRider

July 31st, 2005, 01:09 PM

The old Penn Station in that shot looks like a temple.

James Kovata

July 31st, 2005, 02:22 PM

The old Penn Station in that shot looks like a temple.

That's exactly what it should have looked like...a temple to commerce.

krulltime

July 31st, 2005, 05:14 PM

Cool photo shot! Yeah what a difference NYC has achieve in building construction through the years. Of course except when it comes to the station though.

Alonzo-ny

July 31st, 2005, 09:46 PM

Can someone clear something up for me i always thought the old penn station was the crystal palace but that was at bryant park so anyone can tell me what the difference is please im confused

TLOZ Link5

July 31st, 2005, 10:14 PM

Can someone clear something up for me i always thought the old penn station was the crystal palace but that was at bryant park so anyone can tell me what the difference is please im confused

The Crystal Palace was built at the current site of Bryant Park in the 1850s. It was a pavilion for the New York World's Fair meant to mimic London's own fair a few years ealier. The building was destroyed by fire only a few years later, while London's Crystal Palace endured until the 1930s.

Penn Station, of course, was a rail terminal. It was built in 1910; the only part of it that was made entirely of glass was the departure concourse/train shed on the west side of the building.

GVNY

August 1st, 2005, 08:44 AM

Well, I must say that I am very happy with the new developments regarding the station. I must disagree with some forumers comments that the new design is inappropriate or lackluster.

I remember back in something like 1958, my family and I were visiting relatives who recently immigrated before us to New Haven. We were to take the train, and we opted out of the New Haven. This meant we were to take the corridor line out of Pennsylvania Station on the Pennsylvania. Already enfatuated with trains at this age, and still am (my profession is railroad engineering), a ride on the Pennsylvania railroad was a dream come true.

Seeing Pennsylvania Station in reality for the first time left me truly breathless. I still can feel the intense emotions that gripped my insides upon viewing the structure. It was by far the most beautiful building I had ever seen. I don't know how or where to begin putting words together to describe her. I guess I don't need to as you all have seen the photographs. Penn Station was spectacular.

I will say this though: Being a small 10 year old kid who recently immigrated to the City of Dreams, the curved ceilings soared into heaven, and the light from the sky high windows danced playfully on the floor. The scale of Penn sure made you feel miniscule.

Being the ignorant kid I was, the demolition didn't give me any reservations as I had more important things to worry about, like women. I still feel guilty to this day. It is not as if I could have saved the station, but I feel as a young adult, I should have been out in the streets trying to preserve an immense piece of my new city's history.

So, I am very pleased with the removal of the "potato chip." To me, the previous design by S.O.M. was soulless and modern. The architects threw up some glass and steel, called it a day. The new design is welcome relief. The delicate, rolling glass will be touching throwback to a great masterpiece of design that defined New York's era of arrogance and big projects.

Alonzo-ny

August 1st, 2005, 06:22 PM

Thanks for explaining that for me. I agree i prefer this design, it will be a nice space.

TLOZ Link5

August 1st, 2005, 09:11 PM

You're welcome, alonzo.

Something I've been thinking about for a while. Perhaps the developers could salvage some of the sculptures from the old Penn — particularly the eagles, all of which, thankfully, survive — and reinstall them on/in the Farley building? The Eighth Avenue facade also has two alcoves on either side of the main entrance that would look suitable for statues; possibly the famous allegorical statues of Day and Night — which likewise still exist somewhere in New Jersey — could fit in there? I feel as if some relics of the old station should continue on in the new.

On another note...

In other cities many beloved lost monuments of the past have been brought back to life. Milan rebuilt La Scala, and London the Houses of Parliament, as soon as World War II was over, and as we speak Dresden is putting the finishing touches on Frauenkirche and other buildings lost during the firebombing in 1945. Why can't we rebuild Penn Station just the way it was? If anything, Trump should forget the business over the World Trade Center and throw his weight behind that.

nick-taylor

August 2nd, 2005, 06:10 AM

Small world GVNY ;)

Can anyone give me information as to the current maximum carriage length on platforms in Penn?

GVNY

August 2nd, 2005, 08:38 AM

I guess so, Nick. Bothering people here as well? I thought you had your hands tied down at SSC.

On another note...

In other cities many beloved lost monuments of the past have been brought back to life. Milan rebuilt La Scala, and London the Houses of Parliament, as soon as World War II was over, and as we speak Dresden is putting the finishing touches on Frauenkirche and other buildings lost during the firebombing in 1945. Why can't we rebuild Penn Station just the way it was? If anything, Trump should forget the business over the World Trade Center and throw his weight behind that.

Is that even realistic though? Those cities rebuilt those landmarks over their correct locations. A Pennsylvania Station rebuilding to get it "the way it was" would require the removal of a couple of huge buildings, and the cost of a newly rebuilt Penn would astronomical. I don't even want to imagine the price, although the thought of a new Penn is wonderful.

Fabrizio

August 2nd, 2005, 09:15 AM

Where there´s a will...there´s a way. The La Fenice theatre in Venice was entirely destroyed by fire in 1996 . It was completely rebuilt from nothing. It looks exactly as it did at it´s opening in 1792.

http://travel.guardian.co.uk/countries/story/0,7451,1366012,00.html

ablarc

August 2nd, 2005, 09:42 AM

While we're at it, why don't we rebuild the WTC twin towers as well, same as before but safer?

GVNY

August 2nd, 2005, 09:45 AM

Wow Fabrizio, that is mind blowing! The rebuilding was carried out beautifully.

I guess anything is quite possible. Just ain't gonna happen here.

Fabrizio

August 2nd, 2005, 09:47 AM

Ablarc: the WTC? First I want to see the Parc Savoy, the Lunt Fontaine, the old Helen Hayes, the Morosco and the Ziegfeld...

BrooklynRider

August 2nd, 2005, 09:53 AM

And the Singer.

nick-taylor

August 2nd, 2005, 11:39 AM

GVNY - No, everyone has their own right to an opinion and mines was valid. Harassing people for putting a lower than expected grade for a certain structure though........ I'd also have to be a bit of a dolt if I came on here not knowing what I'm talking about ;)

Fabrizio - There have been many instances like that around the world. The 900+ year old Windsor Castle (just west of London) which is the world's largest (and oldest continually) habited castle was gutted around 13 years ago due to an unfortunate fire. Over 100 rooms including the St George's Hall were either destroyed or severly damaged, but all the rooms have since been restored (mainly by opening up Buckingham Palace to the public):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/20/newsid_2551000/2551107.stm.

Another amazing story was that of Fonthill Abbey - an eccentric's (William Beckford)goal of having his own castle-cum-cathedral as his own private house. He unfortunately wasn't an engineer and ignored advice to not build the tower on the current foundations of a small single storey cottage, but ahead he went. He bribed workers with ale and finally finished the tower...at a staggering 300ft or 90m (this was back in 1795) and this was one guys house. Unfortunately it didn't last and eventually the cottage foundations gave way to the immense weight above and it all came down, so he re-built it on the same cottage foundations and finished it, only for it to come down again. He then re-built the tower, but then lost legal battles and had to sell the entire thing to an arms dealer. Then again for the third time it collapsed and has since never been re-built. It is though my aim in my life to re-build it....with proper foundations of course, just need a few more like individauls to put their minds to work on Penn and thats half of the work done :D
http://www.follies.btinternet.co.uk/fonthilltxt.html

Regarding a possible re-build of the old Penn (and with an actual train shed that covers the trains and not a departure concourse), what about the situation of the Hudson Train Yard? What with the spectacular fiasco and subsequent failure in regards to the stadium, what now could be done with these yards and the surrounding areas, re-zoning, etc. Also instead of having the shops and other amenities above the tracks, why not under them and along the sides. Obviously the only way your likely to get forward in such a way is if you got wealthy individuals behind it as donors.

GVNY

August 2nd, 2005, 12:14 PM

Absolutely Nick, you have a right to your opinion. Unfortunately, your points are far from valid, as people have shown you earlier in this very thread, and my Pennsylvania Station thread.

My apologies guys, I hate to get off topic. My disagreement with Nick will end here and now.

nick-taylor

August 2nd, 2005, 12:34 PM

I think the more appropiate channel here might be if you were to PM me if you have any further grievances as my points were valid.

NYatKNIGHT

August 2nd, 2005, 12:38 PM

I have to agree with Nick, the platforms at Grand Central could be less dismal. We all know the rest of the station is fantastic.

GVNY

August 2nd, 2005, 01:02 PM

I second that! But I am talking in regards to Penn, the station did all it could, and succeeded wonderfully, in bringing light to the tracks.

Citytect

August 2nd, 2005, 02:32 PM

I thought you were going to take your tiff somewhere else.

nick-taylor

August 2nd, 2005, 03:02 PM

GVNY - I thought you would actually PM me instead of going into a full-flung debate (of which you stated you would refrain from) of which I will prove myself right. I will though not post my reply here due to fair discretion. I will kindly reply via PM if you choose that method of discussion (like I noted earlier) and I think others here would be gratuitous if you would actually delete your last post which contradicts your stance of not wanting to take this any further in this thread!

Alonzo-ny

August 2nd, 2005, 06:46 PM

Shut up seriously its like children, take your arguement somewhere else and stop wasting our time.

On topic now i think rebuilding icons is a case by case thing. IE a burnt out windsor castle should be restored, a 1792 whatever in venice should be restored but a penn station or wtc should restore the best qualities of those buildings but we should move on and progress and make them better. Not always what happens but its the right thing to do. Also it makes a difference if something is accidentally destroyed by fire or if its intentionaly brought down ala penn station was because if something is destroyed by fire it obviously wasnt intended to be destroyed and therefore people want it back the way it was.

TLOZ Link5

August 2nd, 2005, 08:37 PM

Is that even realistic though? Those cities rebuilt those landmarks over their correct locations. A Pennsylvania Station rebuilding to get it "the way it was" would require the removal of a couple of huge buildings, and the cost of a newly rebuilt Penn would astronomical. I don't even want to imagine the price, although the thought of a new Penn is wonderful.

I doubt that anyone would object to the rebuilding of Penn Station on its original spot. MSG can relocate to the Hudson Yards, or to a few of the dilapidated blocks south of Farley. And how many of us here would really be sad to see 2 Penn Plaza go?

Nick: Rebuilding Penn on the Hudson Yards site might work, but the original Penn's façade played very well against the Corinthian collonade on the Farley Building. It should be where it once was and nowhere else. Farley can still be used as an extension of Penn, of course.

Alonzo-ny

August 2nd, 2005, 10:34 PM

God i wish they would build a new msg the current building is a joke for the worlds most famous basketball team, soon to get better too with larry brown, what are the chances of a new arena for them

GVNY

August 2nd, 2005, 11:04 PM

kliq6

August 3rd, 2005, 08:37 AM

ANyone really think that Bloomberg and the MTA is going to help Cablevision after killing the JETS and Olympics for Bloomberg and costing the MTA all that money, come on.

BPC

August 3rd, 2005, 10:49 AM

ANyone really think that Bloomberg and the MTA is going to help Cablevision after killing the JETS and Olympics for Bloomberg and costing the MTA all that money, come on.

The cancellation of the stadium is going to MAKE the MTA hundreds of millions of dollars, by allowing the agency to sell the development rights for their true market value, as opposed to a fire same price.

nick-taylor

August 3rd, 2005, 02:26 PM

I doubt that anyone would object to the rebuilding of Penn Station on its original spot. MSG can relocate to the Hudson Yards, or to a few of the dilapidated blocks south of Farley. And how many of us here would really be sad to see 2 Penn Plaza go?

Nick: Rebuilding Penn on the Hudson Yards site might work, but the original Penn's façade played very well against the Corinthian collonade on the Farley Building. It should be where it once was and nowhere else. Farley can still be used as an extension of Penn, of course.I should have made my response my detailed, I was meaning that the Hudson Rail Yards should be used to get revenue. The Hong Kong MTR (and now the London Underground is moving towards) are very good at making money not from fares, but from building around their stations. They buy the land, build the station, then build around the node. In this example, the Hudson Rail Yards and other areas would be built over and then used to construct various towers. The current MSG could be knocked down via a compulsory purchase order (I assume its roughly the same to the process in the UK) and the old Penn re-built. Donations and the profits raised from the re-developments would most likely fund such a reconstruction. Its just the planning and organisation thats the hard part!

Johnnyboy

August 3rd, 2005, 09:41 PM

that makes sence to me. business and residencial buildings are worthlots more closer to great transportation like subways. look at the area around Grand Central.

macreator

August 3rd, 2005, 11:38 PM

I should have made my response my detailed, I was meaning that the Hudson Rail Yards should be used to get revenue. The Hong Kong MTR (and now the London Underground is moving towards) are very good at making money not from fares, but from building around their stations. They buy the land, build the station, then build around the node. In this example, the Hudson Rail Yards and other areas would be built over and then used to construct various towers. The current MSG could be knocked down via a compulsory purchase order (I assume its roughly the same to the process in the UK) and the old Penn re-built. Donations and the profits raised from the re-developments would most likely fund such a reconstruction. Its just the planning and organisation thats the hard part!

It's basically the idea behind Terminal City in the surrounding areas of Grand Central station.

nick-taylor

August 4th, 2005, 11:09 AM

It's basically the idea behind Terminal City in the surrounding areas of Grand Central station.Pity that didn't solve the platform problem. Maybe a case of aiming too high and being to adventuous and then being nipped in the bud?

NYguy

August 11th, 2005, 08:32 AM

One of the original plans for the new station included a new MSG on the 9th Ave side of Farley, leaving the MSG site open for more towers. Cablevision may now be looking to explore that option again:

Separately, Cablevision chief executive James Dolan told analysts during the call that the company is "studying" the Farley Post Office Building in Manhattan, where a developer had proposed moving Madison Square Garden.

The developer, Vornado Realty Trust, along with Related Cos., was chosen by the Empire State Development Corp. to transform Farley into the new Penn Station. Vornado had proposed moving the Garden into part of the facility as one of four options for the site. But Empire State Development selected another option.

Dolan did not elaborate on his remarks, which were the first indication that Garden owner Cablevision was looking at the possibility of such a move. He did say that currently the Garden is proceeding with a $300-million renovation at its current site across Eighth Avenue from the post office.

A spokesman for the Empire State Development Corp. has said it chose a Vornado-related plan that includes hotel, retail and office space partly because the other proposals did not have as much "credibility," especially since it was not clear how Cablevision viewed the idea. If the Garden were to move, Vornado, which controls property around the current site, could help redevelop it, benefitting Cablevision among others. Vornado chief executive Steven Roth declined to comment.

Both the Garden proposal and the tentative settlement of the AMC court fight could be key developments helping shape Cablevision's future.

Alonzo-ny

August 11th, 2005, 06:22 PM

Id love a new msg i hate the current one

lofter1

September 20th, 2005, 11:15 AM

During the past week both sidewalk sheds and scaffolding have been going up along 8th Avenue in front of the Farley building. For now the scaffolding is rising at the NE corner at 8th & 33rd St.

I'm hoping this is the beginning of work to transform the Farley into Moynihan Station.

Any news on this?

kliq6

September 20th, 2005, 02:40 PM

could be some prelim work yes

TonyO

September 26th, 2005, 09:03 AM

NY Sun

Mayor Seeking Momentum on Penn Station

BY JEREMY SMERD - Special to the Sun
September 26, 2005
URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/20537

The Dalai Lama, usually preoccupied with matters of religion or foreign policy, yesterday tackled a more mundane matter, endorsing the idea of spending nearly $1 billion to turn the Farley Post Office in Manhattan into a new train station for commuters.

The Dalai Lama appeared yesterday on the steps of the post office with Mayor Bloomberg at an event designed to lend momentum to the construction of what would be called Moynihan Station, after the senator from New York who died in 2003. The senator's daughter, Maura, also attended the event.

The religious and political leader of the people of Tibet said that it was his "unique, close friendship" with Daniel Patrick Moynihan that led to his interest in the train station. For years a harsh critic of Chinese policies in Tibet, which led to the deaths of a million Tibetans and the destruction of thousands of monasteries, Moynihan championed a congressional resolution that recognized the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile.

Yesterday, speaking through a translator, the Dalai Lama said the station will "contribute to the joy and ease of movement for the people of this city." Then he interrupted himself with his halting English. "We should carry out his wish," he said with a broad smile.

The $930 million Moynihan Station would transform the beaux-arts James A. Farley Post Office, bordered by Eighth and Ninth avenues and 31st and 33rd streets, into a 400,000-square-foot train station that would expand commuter railroad service in the region, serving New Jersey Transit and possibly other commuter lines. It is slated to include an additional 250,000 square feet for the U.S. Postal Service and 750,000 square feet for retail, office, or residential use.

Plans for the station have proceeded in fits and starts for more than a decade.

By the time the senator died in 2003, he had earmarked nearly $800 million for the project, Maura Moynihan, who is a fellow at the Regional Plan Association, said.

The project, though, had become overshadowed by plans to rebuild Lower Manhattan in the wake of September 11, 2001, the mayor's unsuccessful efforts to construct a West Side stadium, and a host of other transportation projects such as plans for a Second Avenue subway line and a link between JFK Airport and Lower Manhattan.

Last year, Congress nearly reallocated $40 million from Moynihan Station to the extension of the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal known as East Side Access.

Yesterday's appearance by the 70-year-old Dalai Lama comes at a time of renewed interest in the station.

In July, the Empire State Development Corporation, which is charged with developing the site, selected Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust to develop the building.

Also this summer, Ms. Moynihan joined the Regional Plan Association to help promote her father's vision.

"The Dalai Lama really wanted to say thank you to his friends who were there during the lean years," she told The New York Sun, referring to the time before 1987 when the Dalai Lama won the Nobel Peace Prize and the plight of Tibetan statehood became an international cause celebre.

Mr. Bloomberg, who took some criticism early in his administration for meeting with the vice president of Communist China, yesterday gave the key to the city to the Dalai Lama, who is considered an enemy by the Chinese government. Mr. Bloomberg called the vision of a new station Moynihan's "final gift."

"It will stand, I think, as a fitting tribute to Pat Moynihan as well as a bold monument to the international spirit the Dalai Lama has dedicated his life to," the mayor said.

The Dalai Lama normally eschews such honors and has refused offers of citizenship from other countries. Usually speaking of himself as nothing more than a simple monk, he retains his legal status as a displaced refugee who fled Tibet in 1959. But with about 3,000 Tibetans living in the tri-state area, and thousands more who traveled to the city yesterday to receive his blessing, he received the key graciously.

With the project eight years behind schedule, its proponents say they hope yesterday's endorsement by the Dalai Lama will give Moynihan Station new momentum to build, as Mr. Bloomberg put it yesterday, "a grand gateway to millions from around the world."

The Dalai Lama, who is recovering from a cold, is scheduled to complete his two-week tour of America today with an appearance at Columbia University, which is marking a newly endowed faculty position in Tibetan Buddhist studies.

lofter1

September 26th, 2005, 09:41 AM

The scaffolding is now up along the entire northern half of the Farley building along 8th Avenue (i.e.: from 33rd / 8th to [ non-existent ] 32nd / 8th).

krulltime

September 26th, 2005, 10:12 AM

Oh is been so long really... But this is going to be a great station when finished. I believe that this is the first step for other new development in the area.

kliq6

September 26th, 2005, 03:28 PM

ye sthis will extend Midtwon to atleast ninth avenue with its openings there, this and Javits and a possible 7 train extension will get the West Side going

TLOZ Link5

September 26th, 2005, 06:25 PM

Bringing MetroNorth into either Moynihan or Penn will do a helluva lot more to jumpstart office development.

STT757

September 26th, 2005, 06:49 PM

Bringing MetroNorth into either Moynihan or Penn will do a helluva lot more to jumpstart office development.

Metro North can only access NY Penn (or Farley) from the Hudson or New Haven lines, and they cannot do that untill additional capacity is freed up with the LIRR's Grand Central Project or NJ Transit's Trans-Hudson Tunnel.

TLOZ Link5

October 8th, 2005, 01:24 PM

I asked some people at the post office about the scaffolding the other day. They said it's for a restoration of the main façade.

ablarc

October 9th, 2005, 02:14 PM

I asked some people at the post office about the scaffolding the other day. They said it's for a restoration of the main façade.
Cart before horse?

TLOZ Link5

October 9th, 2005, 02:22 PM

Cart before horse?

Well, it seems to only be for the post-office component of the building. I'm pretty certain that this is a USPS project, not related to Moynihan Station.

lofter1

October 9th, 2005, 07:01 PM

I hope they replace the awful lights that were installed to illuminate the facade a few years back. What's there now gives good illumination but they're huge and they overpower the beautiful cornice.

ablarc

October 15th, 2005, 08:11 PM

This project's like the dormouse at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party; you have to pinch it now and then to wake it up, it pretends for a while to be awake, and then it goes back to sleep again.

lofter1

October 15th, 2005, 08:16 PM

Could you give it a big fat pinch? Please??

It's been sleeping way too long ...

TonyO

November 16th, 2005, 02:19 PM

NY Newsday

Train hub to reduce waits

BY PAUL D. COLFORD
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Riders will spend less time battling their way up from overcrowded train platforms after the new Moynihan Station opens in midtown, according to a new study pushing the project that was released yesterday.
The report said that the conversion of the James A. Farley Post Office, across Eighth Ave. from Penn Station, to a transit hub will add sorely needed exits to six platforms serving NJTransit and Amtrak trains.

"By 2010, average peak-hour delays in exiting from the train platforms would be reduced by more than a third ... from 1.9 minutes to 1.2 minutes," the study by the Friends of Moynihan Station and the Regional Plan Association said.

"The longest waiting times would be reduced from nearly 11 minutes to about 8.3 minutes," it added.

"Train delays could be reduced, since trains would not have to spend as much time unloading passengers. ... This could make it possible to run additional trains."

Once the block-square Moynihan Station is linked to Penn Station, passengers "will be able to exit ... a block farther west, at Ninth Ave., an option that will become increasingly important as the Far West Side develops," the report said.

The study follows a July announcement that The Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust, two New York developers, were picked by the state to turn the landmark post office into an $818 million hub of rails, restaurants and stores.

Maura Moynihan, a senior fellow of the Regional Plan Association and daughter of the station's namesake and proponent, the late Sen. Daniel Moynihan, helped write the study.

"This final, unfinished piece of my father's legacy unites landmark preservation ...transportation policy, architecture, design and economic development in service to the common good," she wrote.

Construction is supposed to start by this summer and be completed around 2010.

NewYorkYankee

November 16th, 2005, 03:19 PM

Sounding good to me.

krulltime

November 21st, 2005, 03:19 PM

New Jersey Transit to anchor Moynihan Station

by Catherine Tymkiw
November 21, 2005

New Jersey Transit today signed up as anchor tenant for Moynihan Station, giving a boost to plans for a new Manhattan rail gateway.

The transit agency signed a memorandum of understanding with the Moynihan Station Development Corp. to negotiate a 99-year lease for 35,000 square feet. New Jersey Transit will have operational control of the new station on Eighth Avenue and will integrate with its existing operations in Pennsylvania Station.

“We will benefit from their years of rail experience and they will benefit from a new station that can accommodate their growth,” said Charles Gargano, chairman of the board of MSDC and its parent, the Empire State Development Corp.

The project will convert the General Post Office into a 300,000-square-foot train station with 850,000 square feet of commercial space and one million square feet of air rights for a residential housing tower. The Post Office will retain 250,000 square feet in the building.

The deal will cost the transit agency, which will pay about $2.3 million a year for the exclusive space, about $228 million over the life of the lease.

©2005 Crain Communications Inc.

BPC

November 21st, 2005, 03:29 PM

TonyO

November 21st, 2005, 03:45 PM

NJT is far more forward thinking then Amtrak it isn't funny. The lease is a steal for NJT. Amtrak has chosen to remain in its dungeon.

Amtrak has no forward thinking because it is constantly trying to defend every penny it spends. It is amazing Acela service was ever developed with the anti-public-transit congress we have. It has no benefit of moving its gates to Moynihan - unfortunately.

ablarc

November 21st, 2005, 03:56 PM

Amtrak has no forward thinking because it is constantly trying to defend every penny it spends. It is amazing Acela service was ever developed with the anti-public-transit congress we have. It has no benefit of moving its gates to Moynihan - unfortunately.
Congress will change next year, and the administration two years after that. That'll be time for Amtrak to wake up.

sfenn1117

November 21st, 2005, 05:47 PM

Congress will change next year, and the administration two years after that. That'll be time for Amtrak to wake up.

don't bet on that

TimmyG

November 21st, 2005, 06:27 PM

I'm surprised Amtrak is still around. For short distances, it's cheaper to take a bus or commuter rail, and for long distances, flying is much faster.

vc10

November 21st, 2005, 11:15 PM

It's somewhat unclear whether Amtrak is a good thing for passenger rail or not. It spends millions on thinly-traveled routes to curry congressional favor when it could have spent the money on routes some might actually want to use. The breakup of Amtrak might even be a good thing for passenger rail in this country (I'm not saying I fully believe this, by the way).

I'm surprised Amtrak is still around. For short distances, it's cheaper to take a bus or commuter rail, and for long distances, flying is much faster.

vc10

November 21st, 2005, 11:22 PM

A million sq feet of apartments? Will this be built over Moynihan Station or will the rights be sold to adjacent properties?

New Jersey Transit to anchor Moynihan Station

by Catherine Tymkiw
November 21, 2005

New Jersey Transit today signed up as anchor tenant for Moynihan Station, giving a boost to plans for a new Manhattan rail gateway.

The transit agency signed a memorandum of understanding with the Moynihan Station Development Corp. to negotiate a 99-year lease for 35,000 square feet. New Jersey Transit will have operational control of the new station on Eighth Avenue and will integrate with its existing operations in Pennsylvania Station.

“We will benefit from their years of rail experience and they will benefit from a new station that can accommodate their growth,” said Charles Gargano, chairman of the board of MSDC and its parent, the Empire State Development Corp.

The project will convert the General Post Office into a 300,000-square-foot train station with 850,000 square feet of commercial space and one million square feet of air rights for a residential housing tower. The Post Office will retain 250,000 square feet in the building.

The deal will cost the transit agency, which will pay about $2.3 million a year for the exclusive space, about $228 million over the life of the lease.

©2005 Crain Communications Inc.

JCMAN320

November 21st, 2005, 11:35 PM

NJT is far more forward thinking then Amtrak it isn't funny. The lease is a steal for NJT. Amtrak has chosen to remain in its dungeon. My question is, why isn't the LIRR participating? Think of all the people who live in, and commute from, Long Island and all the money that represents. How on earth can it not be cost-effective to give them 1/2 of a decent terminal?

I understand what you mean and your right LIRR deserves something, but with the money and people I think is a little misleading. New Jersey is the richest state in the United States and there are more people commuting into Manhattan from Jersey than they are from Long Island. The numbers are on this forum somewhere, I'm not sure where but if anyone can find them let me know. So LIRR would give some boost but NJT alone can support a majority of the new station without a problem.

ZippyTheChimp

November 22nd, 2005, 12:19 AM

A million sq feet of apartments? Will this be built over Moynihan Station or will the rights be sold to adjacent properties?
The air-rights are to be transferred to a Vornado owned site on W 33rd ST.

NYguy

November 22nd, 2005, 08:40 AM

NJT is far more forward thinking then Amtrak it isn't funny. The lease is a steal for NJT. Amtrak has chosen to remain in its dungeon. My question is, why isn't the LIRR participating? Think of all the people who live in, and commute from, Long Island and all the money that represents. How on earth can it not be cost-effective to give them 1/2 of a decent terminal?

It's also important to remember that the new station is west of 8th Avenue, a little inconvenient for now. When those westside plans really get underway, it'll be a new ballgame. But I'm sure some LIRR trains will eventually end up discharging passengers on that side, Penn Station gets so busy. The funny thing is that while NJ Transit gets the new station, Amtrak still has the right of way into the city (those bastards).

ablarc

November 22nd, 2005, 09:01 AM

New Jersey is the richest state in the United States...
Off topic, but what are the criteria and sources for this claim?

How does Camden fit in?

Derek2k3

November 22nd, 2005, 09:17 AM

I thought Connecticut was the "richest" state.

Jake

November 22nd, 2005, 09:22 AM

No I think it is NJ, it's because you have many people who live in NJ and commute a short distance to the two MAJOR MAJOR cities, NY and Philly.

That's something of an odd statistic though, because I believe it's based on personal income not state, so in fact I don't know what kind of wealth NJ generates but I doubt it's near that of CA which is the world's 5th largest economy. Also going by zip codes NYC has the top 5 or 6 wealthiest zip codes in the US, primarily on the east side of manhattan.

BPC

November 22nd, 2005, 09:29 AM

I read that too. Last year NJ passed CT as having the highest per capita income of any state in the US. As for Camden, Newark, and Trenton, they lower the average, but not enough. Every state has its poor parts, but NJ, despite its down-market reputation, has more rich parts than most.

krulltime

November 22nd, 2005, 09:53 AM

Rail Station Looks West to Find Tenant

By PATRICK McGEEHAN
Published: November 22, 2005

The long-running project to make an expanded Pennsylvania Station into a majestic transit hub in Midtown has finally secured its first and most important tenant: New Jersey's state-operated commuter railroad.

New Jersey Transit said yesterday that it had reached an agreement with the State of New York to be the anchor tenant of Moynihan Station, on the west side of Eighth Avenue at 33rd Street. The deal, which is expected to lead to a 99-year lease by summer that will cost the railroad about $4.8 million a year, would make New Jersey commuters the prime beneficiaries of the $818 million redevelopment of the city's main post office into a palatial train station.

The station, across the avenue from Penn Station, was originally intended to serve as a new home for Amtrak. But Amtrak backed out of plans to move there and the Long Island Rail Road also chose to stay put at Penn Station.

That left Moynihan Station, the pet project of Senator Daniel P. Moynihan, who died in 2003, without a railroad and in jeopardy of becoming Moynihan Mall. New Jersey Transit jumped into the void, grabbing the chance to move its Manhattan operations one block west and gain operational control over a home of its own.

The agreement brings together some odd bedfellows. Charles A. Gargano, who as chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation is one of the most vocal champions of economic development in New York, is linking arms with the operators of an out-of-state transit agency.

"New Jersey Transit is growing and we want the station to be successful," Mr. Gargano said. "If it brings people into New York City, that's what we want, isn't it?"

Mr. Gargano pointed out that New Jersey Transit carries far more passengers into and out of the city - more than 100,000 every weekday - than Amtrak does. And, he added, some of them are New York State residents who live west of the Hudson River.

Most of the money that will be spent to recast the building, which houses the James A. Farley Post Office, will come from the federal government and New York state and city agencies. New Jersey Transit said it would pay about $2.3 million annually to rent 35,000 square feet of the station and as much as $2.5 million a year toward operating costs.

George D. Warrington, the executive director of New Jersey Transit, called the deal a "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be able to plant the flag" in the heart of the city. "We have no substantial presence in New York today," he said. "I'm so desperate for space over there."

As the third of three railroads making heavy use of Penn Station, New Jersey Transit has been in a bind. Its customers have been funneled through fewer stairwells to reach the train platforms below the street. Its offices there are so cramped that it has to rent rooms in the Hotel Pennsylvania across Seventh Avenue for its crews to rest between morning and evening runs.

Under the agreement, New Jersey Transit will have operational control of Moynihan Station, though customers of Amtrak and the Long Island Rail Road will be able to reach their trains by passing through it and under Eighth Avenue.

The agreement is the second Mr. Warrington has reached with Mr. Gargano about the project. Mr. Warrington was running Amtrak several years ago when he agreed that Amtrak would be the station's anchor tenant. But after Amtrak's board replaced Mr. Warrington with David Gunn, Mr. Gunn broke off the deal.

Amtrak's reversal nearly derailed the Moynihan plan, but yesterday Mr. Gargano said that with Amtrak's future in doubt after the dismissal of Mr. Gunn this month, it may have turned out to be a blessing.

"They missed out, in our opinion," Mr. Gargano said of Amtrak.

But, he added, "Who knows if Amtrak will be around in the future?"

Maura Moynihan, the senator's daughter who is now working at the Regional Plan Association, said: "This way we have a stable anchor tenant who's a neighbor. It's important to keep the tristate relations going. None of this is a competition."

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

NYatKNIGHT

November 22nd, 2005, 10:28 AM

I thought Connecticut was the "richest" state.

NJ and CT have switched back and forth over the years.

TonyO

November 22nd, 2005, 11:48 AM

NY Sun

New Jersey Transit To Be Anchor Rail Tenant of Proposed Station

By ALEC MAGNET, Staff Reporter of the Sun

The transformation of the Farley Post Office into a rail hub moved a step closer to reality yesterday when New Jersey Transit announced it will be the anchor rail tenant of the proposed Moynihan Station on Eighth Avenue between 31st and 33rd streets.

"The creation of Moynihan Station, with NJ Transit as its main tenant, will ease commuter congestion, open up Midtown, and create jobs for New Yorkers," Senator Schumer wrote in an announcement he released with Senator Clinton yesterday.

NJ Transit is expected to pay $2.3 million a year to lease 35,000 square feet of space, which it will use to extend four tracks from the adjacent Penn Station. The intent of the agreement is for NJ Transit to exercise operation control of the station, which should be operational by 2010, according to a statement released yesterday.

The memorandum of understanding executed yesterday between NJ Transit and the Moynihan Station Development Corporation paves the way for the two organizations to negotiate a 99-year lease, which officials expect to be signed by this summer.

Moynihan Station, expected to cost $818 million, would expand the James A. Farley Post Office to include 300,000 square feet of space for the train station, 850,000 square feet of re tail space, and 250,000 square feet for the post office, which will pay a nominal rent of $1 a year.

Plans to build the station were first proposed in the early 1990s, though funding debates in Congress, Amtrak's decision not to leave Penn Station, and the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, have delayed its construction.

Last July, the Empire State Develop ment Corporation selected two developers, Vorando Realty Trust and the Related Companies, to collaborate in the station's construction, in part because their proposal left the land marked Farley building, designed by the celebrated turn-of-the-century firm McKim, Mead and White, basically intact, according to the chairman of both development corporations, Charles Gargano.

McKim, Mead and White also designed the original Penn Station, which was demolished in 1963, an event that many consider the catalyst for the landmarks preservation movement.

No less a figure than the Dalai Lama threw his support behind the station during his visit to New York in September, mostly because of his long friendship with Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the late senator after whom the station is named.

vc10

November 22nd, 2005, 12:15 PM

Between which avenues?

The air-rights are to be transferred to a Vornado owned site on W 33rd ST.

ZippyTheChimp

November 22nd, 2005, 01:25 PM

^
The northeast corner of W 33rd & 8th Ave, directly west of 1 Penn Plaza.
The property runs to W 34th.

lofter1

November 22nd, 2005, 01:43 PM

^ Where there is now a low rise building (Duane Reade / a bar / a deli) and the public plaza east of 1 Penn Plaza.

TonyO

November 22nd, 2005, 02:23 PM

NY1

New Jersey Transit Signs On As Moynihan Station Tenant

November 22, 2005

The Moynihan Station project took a big step forward Monday with the signing on of a tenant.

Until now, the plan to turn the Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue into a train station has been looking for a railroad to sign on.

But New York State and New Jersey Transit reached a deal Monday. New JerseyTtransit plans to vacate its cramped quarters at Penn Station to become the principal tenant across the street in the renovated building.

Commuters will also be able to access the Long Island Railroad and Amtrak platforms through the new space, so even though those two railroads are technically staying put in the old Penn Station, riders will be able to take advantage of the new space.

vc10

November 22nd, 2005, 04:58 PM

There's going to be a million sq feet of residential there? Crappy neighborhood. The Pennmark (now the Olivia) is on 33rd (to 34th) between 8th and 9th---I can't imagine ever wanting to live in there. They always seem to have high rent concessions in that building.

Only reason to live there might be if you were doing the reverse commute out to Jersey.

^ Where there is now a low rise building (Duane Reade / a bar / a deli) and the public plaza east of 1 Penn Plaza.

ablarc

November 22nd, 2005, 05:35 PM

There's going to be a million sq feet of residential there? Crappy neighborhood...I can't imagine ever wanting to live in there.
One reason might be that relatively few people live here. This is a step toward rectifying that.

lofter1

November 22nd, 2005, 05:48 PM

8th Avenue from 42nd down to 34th (and beyond) is going through a huge tranformation. 520 8th Avenue is a perfect example of former garment industry building that has been re-done and is thriving. Other large former garmento buildings have and are going through similar rejuvenation.

While the NE corner of 8th / 34th will remain a problem for development (many small parcels on the north side of 34th and east side of 8th Ave.) the Hotel New Yorker across the street is prepping for a major upgrade.

Ninth Ave. from 42nd St. south is starting to get some new buildings (anyone have info on what's going up on the NE corner of 38th / 9th? It's only up a few floors, but it looks high-end). And then there is all the hoopla regarding proposed development at the west side around the rail yards.

In 10 years this entire area could be totally transformed and barely recognizable from what it is now.

ZippyTheChimp

November 23rd, 2005, 11:35 AM

http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPAMoynihanStation.pdf

TonyO

November 23rd, 2005, 12:02 PM

From the pdf:

http://www.moynihanstation.org/

A couple interesting lines:

"While Amtrak currently does not plan to offer ticketing or information in the new station, its passengers can still access the platforms from Moynihan and the design allows for greater Amtrak participation in the future."

and

"While there had been discussion of utilizing these air rights in a tower above the Farley Building, the plan put forward by Related and Vornado protects the landmark building and proposes to move the air rights to an adjacent site."

But as it talks about the future of the station it talks about another station where Penn is working 'in concert with' Moynihan. A lot of questions linger about the future of Moynihan/Penn station.

kliq6

December 6th, 2005, 04:37 PM

Walked by today, scaffolding up on Eigth Ave and on 33rd street, cleaning the facade. Only question i have,and i cant seem to get this from anyone i know in the business, is the air right project being built after the station is done?

TonyO

December 15th, 2005, 02:22 PM

The Real Deal

State names head for Moynihan Station effort

December 15, 1:58 pm

State officials Thursday afternoon announced that Robin Stout has been named president of the Moynihan Station Development Corporation, the government body behind the renovation of the Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue into a major transit and commercial hub. Stout had spent four years negotiating leases for the Empire State Development Corporation's 42nd Street Development Project, working on deals like the New York Times headquarters near the Port Authority Bus Terminal and the Bank of America Tower in Midtown. He's also worked recently as the legal counsel for the ESDC's Jacob K. Javits Convention Center Expansion Project. The Moynihan Station is expected to open in 2010, and will cost an estimated $818 million to build.

TonyO

January 16th, 2006, 10:59 AM

Crain's

Time running out for new Garden deal

Developers would expand station, add hotel, office tower

By Anne Michaud
Published on January 16, 2006

Negotiations are intensifying over the construction of a spacious new Madison Square Garden in a renovated James A. Farley Post Office as a mid-February deadline looms.

The Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust are in talks to build a new Garden a block west, to the Ninth Avenue side of the Farley building, as part of their $556 million project turning the midtown property into the Moynihan Station transit hub.

The parameters of the deal are in flux. One scenario being discussed has Garden owner Cablevision Systems Corp. relinquishing air rights for the current facility. Related and Vornado would demolish it and revive the glory days when the original Penn Station was an architectural marvel and city gateway. The Garden sits atop the station, which since 1963 has been a warren of dark tunnels and fast-food shops.

The developers would install glass canopies over Penn Station and build towers for a convention hotel, offices, stores and apartments, say sources familiar with the negotiations between the companies and Cablevision.

Time is running out for a deal, though. After years of delay, Vornado and Related, bidding jointly, won the right in July to develop the post office. As envisioned then, the project--named in honor of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan--would expand Penn Station across Eighth Avenue, connect an array of subway and commuter lines, and create 700,000 square feet of space for retail, office and residential use. If, however, the developers and Cablevision can come to an agreement, a new Madison Square Garden would replace that mixed-use component.

The developers need a resolution one way or another within a month so that they can proceed with designing and cost analysis. They must guarantee a maximum construction cost by June, when New York state officials will close on the $230 million purchase of the post office from the federal government.

By moving Madison Square Garden, Cablevision executives Charles and James Dolan could replace the cramped, dated venue with wider concourses, stores and restaurants. Lucrative new luxury boxes would also offer better sight lines to Rangers and Knicks fans.

Grand new Garden

New York could emerge with a more beautiful train station in place of the Garden--grander even than the originally envisioned Moynihan Station. "It would be a fabulous improvement," says a government official familiar with the talks.

A Cablevision spokesman says that the company is considering all options.

The relocation plan could falter on economics. Cablevision now enjoys a city property tax break that amounts to more than $10 million a year. The Koch administration made the concession to keep the arena's business in the city. The Garden would lose that benefit in a new location, and government officials estimate that property taxes at the proposed site could total $75 million a year.

The Dolans have approached state officials about retaining the break. But Charles Gargano, chairman of the Empire State Development Corp., says New York state is unwilling to intervene in what is essentially a negotiation with city officials.

Deputy Mayor Daniel Doctoroff says the Dolans have not spoken to him. Cablevision spent more than $30 million to defeat Mr. Doctoroff's dream of a West Side stadium to host the 2012 Olympic games, and the relationship is a bitter one.

"We've had no conversations with them at all," Mr. Doctoroff says. "You can be sure we will do the right thing for the city's financial health."

Comments? AMichaud@crain.com

Eugenious

January 16th, 2006, 08:21 PM

http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=1768

Urban Journal (http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/urbanjournal.php)
Completing the Dream: A Conversation with Maura Moynihan
Moynihan discusses being at the helm of a coalition of civic leaders and citizens to see her father's vision of a world-class transit hub to its fruition.

By Martin C. Pedersen
Posted January 16, 2006
http://www.metropolismag.com/images_cms/spacer.gif Pat Moynihan's grand civic dream has had a fitful eight years. In 1998 Senator Moynihan secured $800-million in federal funds to convert the old Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue into a train station, and in essence correct one of the worst blunders ever perpetrated on the City of New York: the destruction of Pennsylvania Station, once located directly across the street from the post office. The proposed station--designed by David Childs and Marilyn Taylor of SOM, with a lot of input from New York's then senior senator--provided perfect historic symmetry.

But almost immediately events seemed to overtake the dream: Senator Moynihan retired due to failing health; September 11 profoundly shifted attention and priorities; Mayor Bloomberg became obsessed with building a football stadium on the West Side; other worthy transportation projects, such as the Second Avenue Subway and rail links to JFK, fought for political traction. In the ensuing years, Moynihan Station was named after its champion, following his death in 2003, but the project appeared stalled and many supporters feared New York was frittering away Pat Moynihan's parting gift.

The planets, however, have once again realigned in the station's favor. And some of the credit must go to Maura Moynihan, the late senator's daughter, who has spearheaded a public campaign for the station and last year joined the Regional Planning Association (http://www.rpa.org/)(RPA). Now for the first time since its inception, the station appears on track and likely to happen. Some say the project has lost much of its civic focus and has become largely a real estate venture, but Moynihan--a political animal with her father's pragmatic streak--strongly disagrees. Recently we talked about her role at the RPA, the station's renewed prospects, and the political jockeying involved.

**

What is your role at the RPA?
I'm a senior fellow charged with running Friends of Moynihan Station (http://www.moynihanstation.org/). My dad spent 15 years piecing together all the approvals and funding to recreate Penn Station in the Farley Building. He was so upset progress had slowed down that on his deathbed I promised him I would try to make it happen. So I moved to New York right after he died and started the organization. I didn't want his dream to die, because he took the loss of the old Penn Station very personally. He used to shine shoes and sell newspapers in the original station, and he always said, "It was the best thing in our city--we knew it, and some bastards knocked it down."

How is Moynihan Station progressing?
The great news is last summer the development team was finally picked: a partnership between Vornado and Related Companies. What I love about Steven Roth and Stephen Ross--the two Steves, as they're called--is they're both from New York. They have a real feeling for the city. Vornado also owns a lot of properties around the station so they have a vested interest in making this happen. The other good news is New Jersey Transit has agreed to become a tenant. This is fantastic because it's a stable anchor tenant. One hundred thousand people a day use the station to go in and out of New Jersey. They also have to navigate the current Penn Station, which I call The Pit.

What's the next step?
The next step is we need to hear the sound of jackhammers coming out of the Farley Building, because Senator Schumer has told me that federal funds left too long unspent can be rescinded at any time. We could wake up tomorrow and find out that the money's been hijacked to the war in Iraq.

How early could construction start?
Summer, that's my goal, I don't want to wait. Everyone says, "Wait, Pataki isn't running again." A lot of other people are saying we have to wait for the Spitzer administration. But I don't want to wait, because the more time goes by the more expensive concrete, steel, labor, and glass becomes.

Has the original design for the station changed?
The David Childs/Marilyn Taylor "chip" is not there anymore. My dad really loved the chip, but it was very expensive and conceived in the Clinton years when the budget was at a surplus, the world was at peace, and we could plan and think bigger. But David is back on the project, and thank god because he's really close to it. He knew dad from the Nixon administration. Now James Carpenter has a new design that kind of recreates the Victorian, Edwardian-style glass domes of the original station.

Some planners have argued that Moynihan Station, while well intentioned, doesn't add capacity to the system; it's symbolic. How do you respond?
That's nonsense. There are many reports that show that it will increase capacity. It will help bring in tourists, business from the whole tri-state area, and open up connections to Albany, Rochester, Syracuse, and Buffalo, which we need desperately. Look at the success of Union Station in Washington. Look at the success of Grand Central. People go to Union Station to have dinner. When was the last time you said: let's meet for a drink in Penn Station?

How does Friends of Moynihan Station operate?
I'm on my own. I've always kept up my contacts with the two senators, the governor's office, the mayor's office, with people at the various city agencies. What I really appreciate is the ability to reach the people of New York, because those are the people who will benefit from the new station. They're the ones getting cheated right now with The Pit.

Are you in touch with William Weld, Tom Galisano, or Tom Suozzi, just in case something unforeseen happens and Elliot Spitzer isn't elected governor?
No, I haven't done that yet, but we'll see what happens in the next election. Spizter's friends are supporting me. But I'm willing to work with anyone as long as we get this station built, because I am not running for office. It's funny. I've talked to some people on the development team and they say, 'It looks like you're using this as a platform to run for office,' and I laugh because I'm not at all. That's what gives me more credibility to get it done. I've never been paid to do any of this. My only interest is in seeing that station open, because it's a gift Pat Moynihan left to his beloved New York City, and we will never get a gift like this again.

antinimby

January 17th, 2006, 04:48 PM

If the new plan goes ahead, why don't they "recreate" the old Penn Station? People loved it so much, why shouldn't they bring it back to life again, with updated state-of-the-art amenities, of course.

TonyO

January 17th, 2006, 05:37 PM

She doesn't really answer the capacity question. There are no new tracks being added. In fact, the proposed, new rail tunnel under the Hudson is to have a new station altogether near Macy's.

If they can build new platforms for East-side-access to Grand Central, they can do the same with Moynihan/Penn.

STREETLOVER

January 17th, 2006, 11:17 PM

I agree with you, antinimby, that it would be awesome to simply rebuild Penn Station. The Germans just finished an exact reconstruction of a beloved cathedral in Dresden that had been a pile of rubble since WWII bombing. But that would never happen here. Au contraire, you would hear nothing but dismissive ranting about non-originality, imitating the past (ooh, that is such a bad thing), Disneyfication, etc. Unless something is 90% glass construction nowadays, it simply will not do!

NYguy

January 18th, 2006, 08:21 AM

DAILY NEWS

Posting 2-block ad

The two-block-long facade of the James A. Farley Post Office is due to become a giant billboard.

Empire State Development Corp. is accepting bids from ad firms that would put up displays on scaffolding now in place for exterior restoration work.

The canvas being offered on the landmark building - from March 1 until the scaffolding comes down next fall - is 350 feet long and 60 feet high.

Empire State Development is leading the effort to transform the post office, on Eighth Ave. opposite Madison Square Garden and Penn Station, into the Moynihan Train Station.

Maura Moynihan, daughter of the late Sen. Daniel Moynihan and director of the Friends of Moynihan Station, said she had no problem with the plan. "Anything that helps get the jackhammers moving to get the Moynihan station on track is fine by me," she said.

Paul D. Colford

NYguy

January 18th, 2006, 08:33 AM

With the LIRR eastside access plan that will send trains into Grand Central, there's the oppurtunity to do the opposite for Metro-North commuters...

(Stamford Advocate)

New gateway to NYC could open for rail riders

By Mark Ginocchio
January 15 2006

New Haven Line commuters may one day be able to take the Metro-North Railroad to new destinations, including the Hell Gate route into Penn Station.

To provide flexibility, the state Department of Transportation will require the contractor selected to build new rail cars for the New Haven Line to make them compatible to points east of New Haven and along Amtrak's Hell Gate route.

The Hell Gate route starts in New Rochelle, N.Y., runs through the Bronx and Queens, and ends at Penn Station in Manhattan.

"We wanted these cars to provide us with the most flexibility we can get," said Jim Boice, interim rail bureau chief for the agency. "We potentially have some exciting things ahead of us."

The first cars are expected to be delivered in late 2008.

Rail advocates are excited about the possible expansion of the New Haven Line, which makes only one stop in the Bronx, at Fordham, before heading into Manhattan. Having access to the Hell Gate route, which only is used by Amtrak and some rail freight lines, could give commuters access to new points in the Bronx such as Co-op City, and to parts of Queens that have never seen a Metro-North train.

"This a very positive development for the state," said Joseph McGee, vice president of public policy for the Business Council of Fairfield County, an organization that has been pushing for Hell Gate access for years. "The growth of reverse commuters has been well documented. Opening up this route will give us access to a larger labor pool."

According to 2000 U.S. Census data, more than 1,700 workers commute from the Bronx to lower Fairfield County and about 1,400 people commute from Queens.

Hell Gate, a treacherous strait located at the confluence of the East and Harlem rivers, is spanned by the Hell Gate Bridge, a railroad bridge that connects Queens to Manhattan and the Bronx. Opened in 1916, it roughly parallels the Triborough Bridge and was originally conceived as a way to connect New York City to New England by rail.

Accessing this route could potentially provide New Haven Line commuters with exponentially more travel options. Boice said once passengers arrive in Penn Station, they can then connect with the Long Island Railroad, which stretches to the east end of Long Island to the Hamptons and Montauk.

But before the route can be opened to Metro-North the state will still have to negotiate a deal to access the route because it is owned by Amtrak, Boice said.

According to bid specifications, the new M-8 rail car must be compatible with Amtrak's infrastructure in the Northeast Corridor. That will give Metro-North the ability to run on the Shore Line East route from New Haven to Old Saybrook, and the Hell Gate route.

The current New Haven Line fleet cannot run along the Hell Gate route because the cars are too big and would damage the infrastructure, Metro-North spokesman Dan Brucker said.

The voltage that runs the Metro-North cars also is not compatible with Amtrak's electrical infrastructure, he added.

Some New York state transportation officials believe the Hell Gate access plan could tie in with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's push to give the Long Island Rail Road access to Grand Central Terminal. Having the two railroads use the stations interchangeably would prevent overcrowding.

"I think this is a very good move on the state's part," said Franklin Bloomer, co-chairman of the Coastal Corridor Transportation Investment Area, an advisory group to the state Transportation Strategy Board. "My hope is that as this new cars come in, the state will be able to take their plans to the next step."

The state expects the first 50 of 342 new M-8 rail cars to be delivered in late 2008.

Scruffy88

January 21st, 2006, 07:12 PM

If Cablevision has their way and get ahold of the Farley Post Office, are they going to gut it and put their stadium in the middle and keep the exterior or tear it down. Cause that would influence my oppinion of the matter. The farley Post office, in need of cleaning and refurbishments, is a great looking building and should be kept. But would make an interesting exterior to a sports stadium. i'm just not sure its big enough

Scruffy88

January 21st, 2006, 07:17 PM

NYguy

January 21st, 2006, 10:52 PM

the metronorth to Penn Station plan is fantastic. With minimal money needed. No extra tracks are needed. The route is already set up and then you can take it a step further. the tracks already continue on through jersey. You can take a commuter train from Westchester County to Newark. I like it. Although it ease a little congestion from grand central. It would make the already crowded Penn Station even more packed.

I like the idea of options though. Penn Station and Grand Central aren't really far apart, but if you take a train into one station and need to get one from the other, its very inconvenient. Being able to get either train at either station would be fantastic. Maybe Metro-North could then get the Harlem/Hudson line to come in down the westside with Amtrak. Currently there is one Metro-North line operated in conjunction with NJ Transit that connects to Penn Station via the Secaucus junction.

tmg

January 25th, 2006, 05:18 PM

MTA's study on this is posted here:
http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/index.html

The study concluded that the Hudson and New Haven lines could be used to access Penn at little or no cost, but that the Harlem line would require some additional infrastructure.

elfgam

January 26th, 2006, 06:28 PM

Why not do both hudson and new haven -- it makes seem like it has to be one or the other?

Eugenious

February 8th, 2006, 08:29 PM

Business & Labor Moynihan Station Gets Developer
http://construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/RP/20060201ny.asp

(newyork.construction.com, February 2006 issue)
by Alex Padalka
The Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue in Manhattan is one step closer to becoming the new Daniel Patrick Moynihan Station that will expand the capacity of the existing Pennsylvania Station, which serves Amtrak and rail commuters from Long Island and New Jersey. Construction is slated for completion in 2010.
The Empire State Development Corp., the agency overseeing the project, recently selected the development team of Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies, both based in New York, to collaborate on the estimated $818 million project, which will receive funding from the city, state, and federal governments, the U.S. Postal Service, and the developers.
A large portion of the 1913 post office - which sits atop several existing train platforms as well as corridors connecting the railroads and subway lines - will become part of the transit complex in the redesign. The project will increase access to more than 500,000 daily commuters through new or enlarged connecting corridors, new access routes and street entrances, and additional retail and dining options.
The project entails building out 300,000 sq. ft. for the train station, with New Jersey Transit expected to be the largest tenant. The developers will also build 850,000 sq. ft. for commercial space and will be able to transfer 1 million sq. ft. of air rights to build a future residential tower at One Penn West, a parcel owned by Vornado.
According to the development corporation, the new design incorporates a rippled glass canopy that brings light all the way down to the tracks as per a preliminary 1999 redesign by David Childs of Skidmore Owings & Merrill. Childs is staying on as consultant.
The developers have been working with New York-based Hellmuth, Obata + Kassabaum and James Carpenter Design Associates on a final design expected this fall. The development corporation expects to select other members of the design team, including structural engineers, in September and to issue bonds for the project by the end of the year.
The corporation also intends to preserve the façade, including the signature stairwell and columns of the 1913 building, designed by McKim, Mead & White. The Postal Service will continue to operate out of 250,000 sq. ft. in the building.
The station was named in honor of Moynihan, the former U.S. senator from New York, in part because he first secured funds for the project. Moynihan died in 2003.