New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

[NYguy]

In a letter yesterday to Mr. Silver, the governor said that if the speaker rejects the project before him today at a meeting of the Public Authorities Control Board, the state would "invalidate the existing award" and start a new station plan from scratch.

That would mean two of the city's most powerful developers, Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies, could be forced to compete again for the project in an open bidding process...

A spokesman for the developers, publicist Howard Rubenstein, said in a statement that the state could not void the current agreement with Vornado and Related.

"Our development agreement with the State unambiguously remains in effect regardless of the current outcome at PACB," Mr. Rubenstein said. "Our agreement and our RFP response before it pertain to both phases of the project, and the project must and will continue for the good of all New Yorkers."

Good. Now let Pataki pick a fight with the developers, this isn't a big enough mess as it is...

[lofter1]

A spokesman for the developers, publicist Howard Rubenstein, said in a statement that the state could not void the current agreement with Vornado and Related.

"Our development agreement with the State unambiguously remains in effect regardless of the current outcome at PACB," Mr. Rubenstein said. "Our agreement and our RFP response before it pertain to both phases of the project, and the project must and will continue for the good of all New Yorkers."


If this is true then Pataki was overseeing one of the great mistakes in NYC real estate history ...

No wonder he's worried about his legacy and now playing desperate.

[TREPYE]

NY Sun

Pataki Tells Silver He's Down To Last Chance on Station
State officials have said that Mr. Silver has been swayed by Madison Square Garden officials, who are holding out for about $1 billion in public subsidies for the large plan to renovate Penn Station. Madison Square Garden employs lobbyist Patricia Lynch, a former chief of staff to Mr. Silver.


This is discusting!:mad: We know that most politicians don't have enough backbone to shun away from lobbists. But Silver, can you at least try to be a little more subliminal about the fact that you are a Madison Square Garden whore?? Unbelievable, this guy is no better than the ones that were walking around in 42nd St a few years ago.

[Eugenious]

They need to get an independent investigation going in how this whole deal got out of hand and became a mess that it is before it escalates into a major wazoo for Pataki and the city.

[kliq6]

Cablevison is with Vornado on this deal blocker, they meaning Vornado want the larger project so they can win those major air rights, they should just do the station and then deal with a possible MSG deal later.

Its funny that Silver says no to Monyihan because it will only help NJ residents and not the city, yet he aligns himself with a firm that is based outside the city and besides the Knicks have no true NYC employee presence.

he should just be honest and say he will vote know because this project wont help Chambers Street

[Wrightfan]

I agree with Eugenious. This entire project is really pathetic and I'm actuall glad to see it in the process of falling apart as the conversion of the post office that has been proposed is seriously lacking. True it is better than the existing Penn Station, but is that what NYers should settle with?...MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY.

[pianoman11686]

Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that it was Silver presenting the plans for this "alternate" MSG development. For some reason I thought it was the developers. Must have something to do with the fact that I'm right, and it was the developers.

Don't get ahead of yourself. Using sarcasm isn't going to bring this discussion any further along. Silver is not a developer, and he didn't propose any of this. However, he was the one who chose to distinguish the newer proposal completely from the original plan for Moynihan. In other words, he made it clear that he would support only one of the plans. He chose what he referred to as "Plan B", and now that's how everyone refers to it. Don't believe me? Here's the original article from several weeks ago:


Pataki Again Dodges a Vote on Moynihan Station Plans

By CHARLES V. BAGLI

Published: September 21, 2006

...

Mr. Silver is also asking why the control board is being asked to approve the smaller Moynihan Station project when the larger proposal is what the developers want to build. “They’re saying, ‘Approve Plan A and we’ll give you Plan B’ later,” Mr. Silver said of the Pataki administration. “We can change it. I’m suggesting that the thing presented to me personally, and I assume to Senator Bruno, is Plan B. I’m suggesting, put forth Plan B with a financial plan and, subject to evaluation, I think we can be very supportive.”

Now do you understand what I was talking about? It's not a matter of putting forth a plan; it's about using semantics to force the issue about making a choice. Another thing you haven't considered: why would Silver automatically prefer "Plan B", without having seen the financials? He must have some notion of it being a much more difficult sell to the public, because of the large subsidy involved. He must also be aware that it would result in more development in Midtown. Could it have something to do with his anticipation that it'll fall through?


I really don't give a rats a$$ whether it can go forward as "planned", because the fact of the matter is that's not what the developers are planning to build - you know it, I know it, and most importantly Silver knows it. To pretend otherwise is foolish.

You should give a rat's ass, because all the vocal parties involved that have an important say in the project's moving forward (with the notable except of Silver) have repeatedly asserted that the current plan can go through, with the air rights/stadium deal happening sometime further down the road. Now, is it more likely that every one of them (the developers, Bloomberg, Pataki, Gargano, etc.) is blowing smoke, or could it be Silver who just doesn't want anything to get built there at all?


Now is not the time to pretend they don't exists. And your "two wrongs make a right" argument is ridiculous.

How is it ridiculous? First of all, I'm not even saying that the two wrongs would make a right. I'm simply pointing out an inconsistency in Silver's stance, that several other people have already mentioned. Namely: if this project were located in his district, and it only benefitted out-of-staters, he'd have no problem approving it.


It would be foolish of Pataki to think Silver is bluffing when he says he will not approve the project at this time, especially considering he was the one who sabotoged the Westside stadium.

Unfortunately, Pataki is probably the one bluffing here, and Silver will get his way, as he did with the West Side stadium. Somehow, the man always seems to be holding all the cards, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop him.

[NYguy]

Silver gets one right:

amny

Silver derails Moynihan Station project

By MICHAEL GORMLEY
October 18, 2006


ALBANY, N.Y. -- A proposal to turn Manhattan's main post office into a new rail gateway for commuters died in an Albany boardroom Wednesday.

Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver refused to support the proposal and his amendment to expand the project near Pennsylvania Station and Madison Square Garden drew no support from representatives of Gov. George Pataki and the Senate's Republican majority.

The decision will likely put off any project at least a year, according to discussion at the state Public Authorities Control Board meeting.

Silver said the existing $900 million Moynihan Station proposal "does not come close" to meeting the needs of the area including Madison Square Garden and Pennsylvania Station and a more expansive plan is required. The current plan "fails to renovate any space at the existing Penn Station," Silver wrote in a letter to Pataki on Wednesday. "It does not build any new facilities for the MTA subways, Long Island Railroad, Metro North (commuter trains) or Amtrak."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg had urged Silver, a Manhattan Democrat, to vote for the project.

"It would be a mistake to wait to do something as big as what's being called 'Plan B,' which would involve negotiations with Amtrak, the MTA. The city would have to come up with a billion dollars, which we don't have," Bloomberg said. He said, however, that Silver's alternative "is a very ambitious _ and a very desirable plan," but starting with the current proposal would make it easier to include development proposed by Silver.

In a letter to Silver on Tuesday, Pataki had warned that the approval was needed Wednesday and that while he sympathized with Silver's desire for a larger project, the existing proposal was the necessary first step.

"As a long suffering Knicks fan, I share your enthusiasm for a new Madison Square Garden," Pataki wrote Silver, who, like Pataki, was once a noted high school basketball player. "And as you suggest, Moynihan Station can be the 'first phase of the comprehensive development plan.' Phase (One) can start now, must start now and by doing so will take the critical step to allow the pursuit of the larger plan on a dual track."

Pataki quoted the late Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan in the Tuesday letter: "If we get into the mind-set where the good becomes the enemy of the best, we will get nothing."

"While the governor is offering ultimatums, I have now put two alternative plans on the table in order to advance this much-anticipated project," Silver said.

Pataki said Moynihan Station would serve New Jersey commuters as well as Long Island commuters and tourists.

The renovation of the Farley post office, which sits just across from Madison Square Garden and covers two city blocks, had been projected to be completed by 2010.

The expanded landmark would include 300,000 square feet of space for the train station, 850,000 square feet of retail space and 250,000 square feet for the post office.

[NYguy]

pianoman11686, I won't even waste the time it takes to read your rambling. You've aready shown you are incapable of facing the facts, so I'll leave you at that.

[NYguy]

Silver said the existing $900 million Moynihan Station proposal "does not come close" to meeting the needs of the area including Madison Square Garden and Pennsylvania Station and a more expansive plan is required. The current plan "fails to renovate any space at the existing Penn Station," Silver wrote in a letter to Pataki on Wednesday. "It does not build any new facilities for the MTA subways, Long Island Railroad, Metro North (commuter trains) or Amtrak."


It astonishes me that we've come this close to approving this plan, this so called new "Penn Station", that doesn't even do one of these things. How did we even get this far without someone hitting the breaks?

[pianoman11686]

pianoman11686, I won't even waste the time it takes to read your rambling. You've aready shown you are incapable of facing the facts, so I'll leave you at that.

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you think. I'm actually delighted that you find the need to walk away from this. It means I have to deal with one less sarcastic and dismissive forumer for at least a day. Thanks.

[lofter1]

Could we please take the personal sniping to PMs :confused:

[tmg]

Here's a prediction (or at least a wish) for the new year: this project will proceed, but with a lot more sunshine and public review. And the state will actually use its leverage to negotiate for a project that maximizes the public interest.

[JerseyBrett]

Ultimately this project will be approved under the Spitzer administration. I see it being approved by next August or September. This is typical New York partisan politics. It's quite immature but it is what it is. If only there were more politicians like Bloomberg who could exercise a bit of common sense. Oh well. This project sure isn't dead though....

[pianoman11686]

Station Plan Is Called Dead, but It May Just Be Napping

By CHARLES V. BAGLI
Published: October 19, 2006

The Moynihan Station project has had a number of near-death experiences in the 13 years since plans first surfaced to convert the city’s General Post Office into a grand transit center adjoining Pennsylvania Station.

Yesterday, the Pataki administration declared the $900 million project “dead” after Sheldon Silver, the Democratic speaker of the State Assembly, refused to endorse it at a meeting of the Public Authorities Control Board. A yes vote would have cleared the way for construction before Gov. George E. Pataki, a Republican, leaves office in December.

It was unclear whether yesterday’s event was truly fatal, or merely an attempt by Democrats to deny Mr. Pataki a legacy project. In fact, this project, or even a grander one that includes moving Madison Square Garden, could be revived next year, presumably by Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, the leading candidate for governor.

But any delay carries political and financial risks. Construction costs could escalate, federal financing could disappear or the project could become mired in lawsuits.

“This project is dead,” Charles A. Gargano, the governor’s top economic development official, said after the meeting. “We’ve got to start all over again.”

Mr. Gargano said that the speaker’s action had forced the state to terminate the deal with the developers selected to build Moynihan Station: Vornado Realty Trust and Related Companies.

State officials and transit advocates have argued that Moynihan Station is desperately needed to relieve overcrowding at Penn Station, the busiest transit center in the country, and to provide a grand gateway to New York City. But Mr. Silver, in alliance with State Comptroller Alan G. Hevesi and Mr. Spitzer, have repeatedly questioned the financing and legality of the project.

Governor Pataki, who had lobbied personally in its favor, issued a statement last night saying he was “deeply disappointed.” He said that city, state and federal officials had expended a tremendous amount of effort in planning for Moynihan Station, completing the environmental review and designing “a station worthy of Senator Moynihan’s name.”

“It is truly infuriating to now have to consider those efforts fruitless,” Mr. Pataki said.

Mr. Gargano bitterly attacked Mr. Silver, saying he was playing politics and did not understand the project. Officials have suggested that Mr. Silver and other Democrats were acting merely to deny Mr. Pataki any credit.

“He’s one sorry-minded politician,” Mr. Gargano said.

Christine Anderson, a spokeswoman for Mr. Spitzer, said he was disappointed that the two sides were unable to work out their differences. She said he hoped that the Pataki administration would not restart the bidding process “and foreclose the possibility of the project moving forward.”

Transportation advocates also expressed hope that Moynihan Station would once again survive rumors of its demise.

“I don’t think the project’s dead,” said Robert Yaro, president of the Regional Plan Association. “But it’s obviously not going anywhere during this administration, which has only 10 weeks to go. I have every reason to believe that this will be a priority for Spitzer, if he’s elected.”

Last night, Mr. Silver denied that he was playing politics. He said that serious questions remained about the financing and the legality of the Moynihan Station project. He said he favored a more comprehensive proposal from the developers to modernize Penn Station on both sides of Eighth Avenue, by demolishing Madison Square Garden and building a new arena within the post office building.

Transit advocates say that the larger proposal is a rare opportunity to overhaul Penn Station, but that it would also be enormously profitable for the developers, who would build a glass canopy over Penn Station, as well as a shopping mall, office towers, a hotel and residential buildings.

But that proposal is still in a nascent stage and has not been publicly unveiled, and has no funding for the estimated $1 billion cost of renovating Penn Station.

Mr. Silver said he offered a compromise yesterday: to approve the $230 million purchase of the post office building and to debate the merits of the proposals in the future. But the Pataki administration rejected the idea.

“There is no reason it shouldn’t be done,” Mr. Silver said of the Farley purchase. “It’s all about photo-ops and cornerstones for them.”

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

[NYguy]

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you think. I'm actually delighted that you find the need to walk away from this.


Walk away? You've go to be kidding.

[NYguy]

Here's a prediction (or at least a wish) for the new year: this project will proceed, but with a lot more sunshine and public review. And the state will actually use its leverage to negotiate for a project that maximizes the public interest.

That's actually what will happen. What still amazes me is that it got this far along in the process without anyone questioning the merits of the plan.

Sure, in the beginning everyone was in favor of building a "grand" new terminal that would serve the double duty of trying to correct one of the city's biggest mistakes while also making Penn Station more efficient. New York's busiest station would have a showpiece worthy of the destination.

But then along the way, Amtrak balked at the cost of the move and decided to stay put. Likewise for the LIRR which didn't really need to move anyway. It was at that point that everyone should have hit the breaks. But everyone (myself included) was still being dazzled by the prospect of a new Penn Station. Along came the developers who said not only could they do the project, but they could do it much, much better by renovating the entire Penn Station, particularly the part of the station the vast majority of passengers will actually use - LIRR, Amtrak (even NJ Transit itself wouldn't vacate this section entirely), and of course subway riders.

In comparing these two plans, you have to ask yourself why we would be spending a billion dollars on another building that would only handle a fraction of the actual traffic. Forget that an extra billion would be needed to do the entire plan right. You could just take the billion from Farley and do what is needed at the current Penn Station. Leave MSG to work out its own deal with the developers and move into the backside of Farley. Either way, the half-hearted attempt at making Penn Station a grand terminal again is not what the city needs. And believe me, if they do it as its planned now, that's all we'll end up with.

[NYguy]

NY Sun

Moynihan Station Falls Victim To Speaker Silver's Heavy Hand

By DAVID LOMBINO
October 19, 2006

The Pataki administration is moving to terminate its agreements with two of the city's most powerful developers, Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies, to build Moynihan Station after the governor's $900 million plan was rejected yesterday in Albany by a representative of Speaker Sheldon Silver.

Governor Pataki had hoped to break ground on Moynihan Station before he leaves office at the end of the year, but yesterday's rejection, represents a major setback for the project and threatens to delay any reincarnations of the plan under a new gubernatorial administration.

"Speaker Silver has single-handily prevented the most important civic and transportation project in the nation today from proceeding," Mr. Pataki said in a statement yesterday.

The assemblyman who represents the district that includes the proposed project, Richard Gottfried, a Democrat, blamed the governor for failing to reach a compromise.

"Governor Pataki has picked up his ball and gone home, because the Assembly didn't want to play the game his way. His action today was pretty petty," Mr. Gottfried said.

It was the second major public project on Manhattan's West Side rejected by Mr. Silver in the last 16 months. In June 2005, he killed the Bloomberg administration's vision of a building an Olympic stadium to be used by the Jets on top of the Hudson rail yards.

Unlike the city's West Side stadium plan, the state's Moynihan Station project enjoyed near unanimous support from civic organizations and elected officials. In more than eight years of planning, a host of officials, including Presidents Clinton and Bush, Mayors Giuliani and Bloomberg, and even the Dalai Lama, on a visit to New York, threw their support behind the vision of the late Senator Moynihan to transform the landmarked Farley Post Office building, with its monumental Corinthian colonnade, into a transit hub and another grand entrance to New York.

While Mr. Pataki blamed Mr. Silver for blocking his plan, critics of the governor say the proposal collapsed under the weight of the more ambitious project proposed byVornado and Related.

In May, the developers circulated preliminary plans to selected civic groups and public officials for a grander public and private project, earning rave reviews. In addition to creating Moynihan Station, the developers would rebuild Madison Square Garden at the west side of the Farley building, conduct a major renovation of the existing Penn Station, open it to daylight, and expand its capacity. They would also develop two or three towers on today's Garden site.

The developers have said the plan, called Plan B, would require a tall stack of approvals, take more than seven years to complete, would earn them more than $1 billion. State officials say the plan would require public subsidies of between $1 billion and $2 billion.

The Pataki administration, in pursuing final approval of their more modest plan, decided on a strategy to get a shovel in the ground on Moynihan Station, and left a vague option in its project plan to allow for a Madison Square Garden move into the west side of the Farley building at a later date. They said the plan rejected yesterday was a prerequisite for the larger plan, and would in no way interfere with Plan B.

Mr. Silver has said in various ways since the governor's plan first came before him August that he preferred the developers' grander vision.

The president of the Partnership for New York City, Kathryn Wylde, said that while she supports Moynihan Station, it is "not close" to what would be achieved with Plan B, the creation of a transit hub that would rival Grand Central Station. She said she questioned why the Pataki administration did not acknowledge the larger goal in their pursuit of the smaller project.

"Apparently they didn't feel there was time to do the entire plan, even though everyone universally acknowledges that this is what we should be doing," Ms. Wylde said.

State officials have said the rejection of the plan by Albany Democrats in politics at its worst. They say that Mr. Silver was swayed by the owners of Madison Square Garden, the Dolan family, who employ lobbyist Patricia Lynch, Mr. Silver's former chief of staff. The Dolans, they say, think that if Plan B is combined with Moynihan Station it will have a better chance of being approved and moving forward.

Mr. Pataki said yesterday, "New Yorkers and visitors from around the world should not be held hostage to an effort to finance a new Madison Square Garden on the backs of taxpayers."

Other development analysts say that the Moynihan project was weakened by an approaching change in the governor's office and that the front-runner to take over as governor in January, Eliot Spitzer, could be tiring of the flurry of ribbon cuttings in the sunset of Mr. Pataki's term.

__________________________________________________ __

Daily News

Penn plan hit by Silver bullet
Speaker's last shot derails 900M post office makeover

BY PAUL D. COLFORD


The $900 million plan to turn the city's main post office into an extension of Penn Station was derailed yesterday by Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver.
Silver's representative on the Public Authorities Control Board, the last stop in the approval process, voted against the plan, which needed unanimous support from the three voting members.

Voting in favor were the representatives of Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno and Gov. Pataki, who publicly pressured Silver to back the project.

In a statement last night, Pataki said: "Speaker Silver has single-handedly prevented the most important civic and transportation project in the nation today from proceeding."

Silver reiterated his opposition before yesterday's board meeting in Albany, telling Pataki in a letter that the proposal "does not come close" to yielding "real benefits to hundreds of thousands of New York commuters and subway users."

The landmark post office, opposite Penn Station on Eighth Ave., would have had NJTransit as its anchor rail tenant and included some 850,000 square feet of retail space.

It was to be named after the late Sen. Daniel Moynihan, who long championed the project.

In response to Pataki, who warned Tuesday that a turndown would jeopardize the state's purchase of the building from the Postal Service, Silver proposed that the state finalize its planned takeover by using funds already set aside.

Pataki rejected that proposal, Silver told the Daily News last night, because it wouldn't satisfy the governor's "continuing desire for photo ops."

Earlier in the day, Mayor Bloomberg said he had phoned Silver and urged him to vote for the post office overhaul, which could eventually bring a new Madison Square Garden to the west end of the post office.

[NYguy]

Governor Pataki had hoped to break ground on Moynihan Station before he leaves office at the end of the year,

Just as he'd hoped to have the Freedom Tower topped out by this year. And we know where that went...



"Speaker Silver has single-handily prevented the most important civic and transportation project in the nation today from proceeding," Mr. Pataki said in a statement yesterday.

"New Yorkers and visitors from around the world should not be held hostage to an effort to finance a new Madison Square Garden on the backs of taxpayers."

Is the governor on crack? And just who's being held hostage by this?



While Mr. Pataki blamed Mr. Silver for blocking his plan, critics of the governor say the proposal collapsed under the weight of the more ambitious project proposed byVornado and Related.

In May, the developers circulated preliminary plans to selected civic groups and public officials for a grander public and private project, earning rave reviews. In addition to creating Moynihan Station, the developers would rebuild Madison Square Garden at the west side of the Farley building, conduct a major renovation of the existing Penn Station, open it to daylight, and expand its capacity. They would also develop two or three towers on today's Garden site.

And speaking of the developers, was it entirely necessary for them to go shopping this plan around without giving the most important players a peek?



Mr. Silver has said in various ways since the governor's plan first came before him August that he preferred the developers' grander vision.

The president of the Partnership for New York City, Kathryn Wylde, said that while she supports Moynihan Station, it is "not close" to what would be achieved with Plan B, the creation of a transit hub that would rival Grand Central Station. She said she questioned why the Pataki administration did not acknowledge the larger goal in their pursuit of the smaller project.

"Apparently they didn't feel there was time to do the entire plan, even though everyone universally acknowledges that this is what we should be doing," Ms. Wylde said.

OH well. I'm confident we will move on with the larger plan under the new governor. Aside from Pataki losing another "legacy" project, what have we really lost? With his threats to remove the developers, we could gain another nasty public battle, one that could put the Silverstein/Libeskind/Childs battles to shame. Let the insults fly.

[pianoman11686]

Walk away? You've go to be kidding.

Look, I don't want this to devolve into one of those petty back-and-forths that goes nowhere. Just because we have different opinions on this doesn't mean things have to get nasty. If you don't want to respond to my posts, then fine - don't. I won't respond to yours either, and we can avoid any further unpleasantness.

[kliq6]

If Governor Spitzer really wants to live up to his campaign ad that states changes starts day one, he would try and move to change how public land use projects like Jets and Penn Station are approved, the fate of every single project should not be controlled by a Idiot (Silver), a upstate hick (Bruno) and any one governor, there should be a panel of atleast 15 people with majority ruling

[finnman69]

Silver is clearly in the pocket of the Dolans, but as much as I hate to see one person controlling the outcome of this project, it deserved to die.

Not only was the scheme a watered down station, it's only a friggin NJ transit station. Penn station deserves to be a massive well integrated and soaring single building station that includes Metro north, NJ transit and Amtrak. It makes a lot more sense to move MSG (not on our dime however), and build a new glorious train station.

[Eugenious]

Where are they going to find another $1-2 Billion for this "new" plan? Does anyone know? I hope they are kidding when they say the developers plan to earn a billion dollars on this. This whole project will make the ground zero rebuilding look like a breeze.

[finnman69]

Even if they build the Moynihan now (which they won't) it has lost all it's luster to me. The only reason I cared in the first place is because I've seen (I bought the great books) on the old Penn Station and really was inspired by it. I don't feel that Moynihan restores even a fraction of the old stations timeless architecture, it's just a box with Doric Columns.



you know, I wonder if anyone has eveb bothered to conduct a feasability study to reconstruct Penn Station more or less as it was. Creating the fabulous spaces accordng to the original design. I can't believe it would be impossible or that astromonical. A lot of the interior could be prefabbed in cast stone. amazing train sheds w/ vaulted skylights could be glazed w/ energy efficient glazing, etc. Perhaps you do a Hearst Tower type design wth a the recreated Penn Station base and a highly modern office tower above. And you move MSG to the Farley site or to the train yards.

[kliq6]

The second plan is not feasible in many peoples opinion. But regardless of whatyou think of this plan, the idea that ALL plans with public money are controlled by three people is just plan DUMB

[Vengineer]

poof

[pianoman11686]

Thanks, Vengineer!

[Kris]

So am I.

[londonlawyer]

...
The smaller tower measures 850' and the taller tower measures 1400' to their roofs....

Although I can't see the renderings, these figures are PROMISING. Vengineer is 'da man!

[Eugenious]

As sad as the situation is... here's look on the bright side. It IS a step in the direction of moving the MSG onto Farley (be in 7-10 years) but here's an early glimpse of what COULD go on the MSG site.

WNY Exclusive. As usual, it will be taken down in a couple hours. Please no quote replies.

This is just one of the many EARLY concept designs by SOM. By no means is this a final design or a render. It's a stacking scheme and just that. But it does show the ambition of this project which aims to fit 7-9 million sqft into a relatively small plot of land.

The smaller tower measures 850' and the taller tower measures 1400' to their roofs. The central yellow area represents the glass facade of the above-ground Penn Station.

Thats pretty interesting, thanks for the glimpse.

[krulltime]

Wow Taller they are! Awesome. Will like to see more details though. But that is interesting nontheless. Thanks!

[ablarc]

Wonderful!!

Hope it doesn't jeopardize your position.

[pianoman11686]

The slant of the taller one reminds me of the Pennsylvania Office Tower proposed by Vornado several years ago.

[sfenn1117]

Thanks for the exclusive!

[londonlawyer]

The slant of the taller one reminds me of the Pennsylvania Office Tower proposed by Vornado several years ago.

I agree.

[Dagrecco82]

Wow..I missed this opportunity from Vengineer much like the World Trade Center ones :(

I need to stop working so much and take a little time during the day to go online.

[londonlawyer]

Wow..I missed this opportunity from Vengineer much like the World Trade Center ones :(

I need to stop working so much and take a little time during the day to go online.

The renderings that were posted were massing models that didn't really show the shape all that much.

[lofter1]

Dagnabbit ... Missed the Vengineer exclusive once again :mad:

I know somebody saved those images ...

Could some body PM me and maybe we can arrange an email :cool:

Thanks in advance ......

[Eugenious]

http://www.cpnonline.com/cpn/property_type/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003285425

Next Step Unclear After Silver Blocks $900M Moynihan Station Project
October 19, 2006
By Adam Perrotta, News Writer

http://www.cpnonline.com/commercialpropertynews/photos/general3/Moynihan_Station1.jpg
http://www.cpnonline.com/cpn/images/spacer.gifThe $900 million Moynihan Station project (pictured), one of the key components of the redevelopment of Manhattan's West Side, has been--if not killed entirely--dealt a significant blow, likely to set back plans until at least after a new governor takes office in January, and perhaps much longer than that.

At a meeting yesterday of the state Public Authorities Control Board--a body run by Governor George Pataki, state Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno and state Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, the approval of which was necessary for the Moynihan Station project to move forward-- Silver refused to approve the development, citing concerns that an alternative plan was superior, as well as questioning the legality of certain funding arrangements made for the project by Pataki.

The plan to develop the station as a major rail hub has been formed over approximately the past decade. Under the rejected plan, The James A. Farley Post Office Building located between 31st and 33rd Streets, across Eight Avenue from Penn Station and Madison Square Garden, would be purchased by the state and transformed into a 300,000-square-foot station serving Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit trains, thus alleviating the overcrowding at Penn Station and providing an appropriately grand rail gateway to the city. The plan also called for 850,000 square feet of retail and hotel space.

However, in May, the project's developers, Vornado Realty Trust and The Related Cos., put forth a more ambitious plan, dubbed Plan B, which involved moving Madison Square Garden across the street to the Farley Building's western annex, thus freeing up the air rights for the area above the existing arena, which would be demolished. Under Plan B, a glass canopy would be built over the current Penn Station site, as well as a shopping mall and office, hotel and residential space.

A statement released by Silver's office, reiterated the Speaker's reiterated preference for the more ambitious plan, but also highlighted a compromise offered by Silver, under which the PACB would approve the purchase of the Farley building while continuing to debate the merits of each proposal. Pataki rejected the compromise plan.

Also in the statement, Silver accused Pataki of illegally approving $50 million, without the PACB's approval, toward a nonrefundable $100 million down payment for the Farley site. Empire State Development Corp. Chairman Charles Gargano, Pataki's top economic development official, rejected the accusation in a statement today.

Some see the move by Silver, a Democrat, as a politically motivated attempt to deny the Republican Pataki the legacy of seeing groundbreaking on Moynihan Station during his tenure as Governor, which likely would have occurred had the project been approved.

Whatever Silver's aims, it is clear that the project will now likely go back to the drawing board. It remains to be seen whether current Attorney General Elliot Spitzer, who is expected to be elected Governor in November, will move forward with either a modified existing plan, or an entirely new one. Spitzer has joined Silver in criticism of the financing and merits of the plan in the past.

Meanwhile, several sources knowledgeable about the situation said that the immediate future posed many questions, such as what would happen to the $130 million in federal funding earmarked for the project and whether or not Pataki would be able to terminate the deals with Vornado and Related.

The Moynihan Station plan had enjoyed widespread support from civic organizations and government officials, and was viewed as a key component of the larger scale redevelopment of Manhattan's West Side, which includes the development of the Hudson Rail Yards, the extension of the number 7 subway line, the expansion of the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center and the development of the area surrounding the formerly-abandoned High Line elevated train track, currently being transformed into a park.

It remains to be seen what effect, if any, the Moynihan Station troubles will have on the other developments, though one source knowledgeable about the project, who wished to remain anonymous, told CPN, "I'm very disappointed that they didn't go ahead with the project. It was much needed, and it was going to be necessary for a lot of that development on the West Side."

Others, however, expected little to no effect on the other projects, which are all in some stage of moving forward.

[Vengineer]

The design process is repositioning to the MSG alternate plan. The plan sets for the current Moynihan Station which took years to develop are being relegated to the bottom of the stack and the under-developed plan sets for MSG-ALT are being pushed up to the top. Project folders are being changed and files and their directories are being swapped and altered. I guess this is it. Say goodbye to the "grand" Moynihan Station. Now it's just a truncated train terminal.

Also, it appears the west building a.k.a. annex. a.k.a. MSG side will be considered a seperate project which calls for a seperate design team. SOM will not be the architects for the MSG side and the Venture has hired another set of companies to design within the same building due to 'conflict of interest' issues. This will undoubtedly result in a coordination madhouse and turn the project into a shitshow. Pardon my french.

[Eugenious]

The design process is repositioning to the MSG alternate plan. The plan sets for the current Moynihan Station which took years to develop are being relegated to the bottom of the stack and the under-developed plan sets for MSG-ALT are being pushed up to the top. Project folders are being changed and files and their directories are being swapped and altered. I guess this is it. Say goodbye to the "grand" Moynihan Station. Now it's just a truncated train terminal.

Also, it appears the west building a.k.a. annex. a.k.a. MSG side will be considered a seperate project which calls for a seperate design team. SOM will not be the architects for the MSG side and the Venture has hired another set of companies to design within the same building due to 'conflict of interest' issues. This will undoubtedly result in a coordination madhouse and turn the project into a shitshow. Pardon my french.

Thank's for confirming what I said before, 'Moynihan Station' goes down in history as another "What if?" along with the Jets Stadium. Any hopes I had of walking into a brand new train station on my way to work has been flushed as well. Hopefully by the time this project gets off the ground (atleast 10-15 yrs) I will have found a better job in another part of town and no longer care what happens to this sorry neighborhood.

[TREPYE]

SOM will not be the architects for the MSG side and the Venture has hired another set of companies to design within the same building due to 'conflict of interest' issues.

So SOM would be responsible for designing the tall conspicious towers in this site....... effing greeeat. :(

[New Brunswick Station]

Thank's for confirming what I said before, 'Moynihan Station' goes down in history as another "What if?" along with the Jets Stadium. Any hopes I had of walking into a brand new train station on my way to work has been flushed as well. Hopefully by the time this project gets off the ground (atleast 10-15 yrs) I will have found a better job in another part of town and no longer care what happens to this sorry neighborhood.

Yeah, right. The station project will be revived in some shape or form because activists are going to continue demanding it, and continue demanding it, and continue demanding it. Say what you will about Moynihan going on the scrap-heap, but the facts remain:

1) Friends of Moynihan Station isn't going anywhere. Their website is still up.
2) The point that Silver used while nixing Pataki's version of Moynihan was that it was TOO SMALL and not grand enough. He wanted more services, more retail, and more responsible financing (read: money that doesn't get run past his nose behind his back). Spitzer seems to be in the same boat.
3) Even Silver and Spitzer want to do something with the Farley building. That means that they still want to keep it available.
4) Farley is a historic building: thus, there will be heavy outcry and a huge slap in the face if the Farley gets messed around or overhauled too much - from the historical preservation boards of NYC. While Madison Square Garden at Farley is quite doable, there will also be continued promotion of the original Moynihan idea.
5) Pataki will try to weasel out of standing contracts with real -estate companies to build Moynihan/ fiddle with Farley, but it might not be that easy to do. Can you say "lawsuit"?
6) If he DOES weasel out, any plan promoted by any activist is fair game for consideration, because the companies will have to compete for attention again. Such plans include the Moynihan idea.
7)After Spitzer's election, the man to watch out for will no longer be Silver but Joe Bruno - because he would be the man in the troika of a different political party than the other two. I haven't seen much in the press about Bruno and the danger he represents to progress. Well, there you go.

I'm confident that Moynihan and a grand Penn Station remain doable and can be done - under Silver and Spitzer - so long as they find a way to get Bruno to cooperate.

[Fahzee]

I dunno - Shelly seems to be a spoiler more often than not

I just don't see him approving anything that takes precious office space away from lower manhattan

[antinimby]

If Shelly boy was as diligent in keeping Jersey City from taking away so many of the city's job and wealth, as he is in stifling the rest of the city, we'd all be so much better off.

See all those towers across the river in Jersey City, Shelly?
New York helped build them.

[pianoman11686]

MAYOR GLUM OVER NIX OF TRAIN STATION

By TOM TOPOUSIS

October 20, 2006 -- The defeat of a $900 million project to convert the Farley Post Office into a rail terminal called Moynihan Station will only make it harder to build a new Madison Square Garden and renovate Penn Station in the future, Mayor Bloomberg said yesterday.

Moynihan Station was derailed in Albany when Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver used his vote on the Public Authorities Control Board to block the project, saying he would consider only a much broader proposal that includes a new arena and Penn Station.

"I was disappointed that Plan A, as they call it, for the Moynihan Station has been stalled. Hopefully it has not been killed," Bloomberg said. "I think the likelihood of doing Plan B, a much larger project, is unfortunately diminished because you don't have Plan A going."

Copyright 2006NYP Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Bob]

Can't say I'm going to miss the Moynihan station. Dumb idea in the first place! The original Penn Station was brilliantly conceived and built. Any new station should go right where the existing one is. That being said, I don't know why we can't all have the best of possible worlds, here. So here goes my Plan 9, for lack of a better term:

1. A rebuilt, spectacular Penn Station...right where it is, thank you.
2. A new MSG, right on top, extending out and over side streets to use the air rights. (why not? It's a great way to use space.)
3. 4 office mega-towers on each corner, intentionally beaux-arts.
4. Design elements from the original Penn Station, including use of actual artifacts unearthed from the swamps of New Jersey. Archeological dig would be necessary but...so what. Would make a great NOVA special.

Saaaay...what's in this can of Coke I'm drinking???

[Eugenious]

Can't say I'm going to miss the Moynihan station. Dumb idea in the first place! The original Penn Station was brilliantly conceived and built. Any new station should go right where the existing one is. That being said, I don't know why we can't all have the best of possible worlds, here. So here goes my Plan 9, for lack of a better term:

1. A rebuilt, spectacular Penn Station...right where it is, thank you.
2. A new MSG, right on top, extending out and over side streets to use the air rights. (why not? It's a great way to use space.)
3. 4 office mega-towers on each corner, intentionally beaux-arts.
4. Design elements from the original Penn Station, including use of actual artifacts unearthed from the swamps of New Jersey. Archeological dig would be necessary but...so what. Would make a great NOVA special.

Saaaay...what's in this can of Coke I'm drinking???

I think the fresh October air got to ya.

I'm telling you right now this is whats going to happen.

- sorting out all the Moynihan mess | time atleast 2 years
- design of new MSG, design of towers, redesign of penn station and sorting out who will pay for what | time atleast 4 years
- actual construction of new MSG before anything can happen to the old Penn Station and demolition of msg| time atleast 5 years
- demolition of old MSG etc. while keeping Penn Station open and construction of glass ceiling inbetween two office towers and construction of office towers | time atleast 6 years

Oh and I'm being conservative...

Oh and about Silver and Pataki, atleast Pataki was elected.

"Democracy takes decades to take root and flourish. New York is learning that it takes just three men in a room to maim and seriously harm a vigorous and representative system of government."—from Three Men in a Room

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1595580328.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V39430735_.jpg

[New Brunswick Station]

If Shelly boy was as diligent in keeping Jersey City from taking away so many of the city's job and wealth, as he is in stifling the rest of the city, we'd all be so much better off.

See all those towers across the river in Jersey City, Shelly?
New York helped build them.

...Silver has no control over Jersey City because it's in New Jersey - it's across the river from the Apple...

Anyhow, I figure Silver's been the spoilsport because he is a Democrat and the leaders of the senate and exec branch are Republicans. Once Spitzer comes in, the balance would lead to Silver and Spitzer (both Democrats) on the one hand and Bruno (a Republican) on the other. This would explain Bloomberg (a Republican)'s taking Pataki's (a Republican) point of view on the Moynihan station issue in recent months. Yes, support had been bipartisan in earlier months, but for some reason or other, Silver decided to make the Moynihan issue his vehicle of harassing the Republicans, whereas he could've gone for another issue instead. Perhaps he really doesn't want Midtown getting anything and Downtown getting everything, but more likely he a) is annoyed at Pataki, b) saw a convenient issue to trash him over, c) had reservations about only building a concourse for New Jerseyans (not his constituents) rather than helping to develop NYC as a whole (Pataki and Bruno are more of the upstate kind and Silver is the troika member holding the fort for NYC, so he OUGHT to be inclined to contribute to New York City's economy), and d) found Pataki going behind his back to support Moynihan (and thus snubbing him in the process). It's petty politics at its worst. With Paturkey out of the way, that dynamic will hopefully be gone - and Bruno might become the bad guy, for he's the third member and Republicans would no doubt try to egg him on.

[New Brunswick Station]

I think the fresh October air got to ya.

I'm telling you right now this is whats going to happen.

- sorting out all the Moynihan mess | time atleast 2 years
- design of new MSG, design of towers, redesign of penn station and sorting out who will pay for what | time atleast 4 years
- actual construction of new MSG before anything can happen to the old Penn Station and demolition of msg| time atleast 5 years
- demolition of old MSG etc. while keeping Penn Station open and construction of glass ceiling inbetween two office towers and construction of office towers | time atleast 6 years

Oh and I'm being conservative...

Oh and about Silver and Pataki, atleast Pataki was elected.

"Democracy takes decades to take root and flourish. New York is learning that it takes just three men in a room to maim and seriously harm a vigorous and representative system of government."—from Three Men in a Room

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1595580328.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V39430735_.jpg

Even if Shelly boy had approved the concourse off the cuff, construction would still have taken years, there'd still be a mess to sort out (because of Madison Square Garden's movement), and we'd still be looking at several years before completion of development. I suspect that we're looking at something like a coupla years' delay because of this three-men-in-a-room nonsense so far.

[panderson]

Pataki has proved himself at Ground Zero to be more concerned with politics and his legacy than what's in the long-term best interests of the city and the other stakeholders, so I'm suspicious of his motives at Moynihan. And don't believe him when he says the project is "dead" after last week's vote -- the only thing that vote did for certain was guarantee the project won't be approved on Pataki's watch. He simply wants to blame Silver for dealing the fatal blow.

As for Silver, yes he probably wields too much power, but I'm not convinced he uses it solely for evil. His West Side stadium veto was heroic, in my opinion -- but I was a stadium opponent. I don't doubt that he works to funnel development to his own district, but I fail to see how blocking Moynihan leads to a benefit for Lower Manhattan. What's his motivation exactly?

I've thought from the moment the proposal to move MSG and rebuild Penn Station was unveiled that it was worth taking a look at. Pataki and Bloomberg both say the Moynihan project could have been set in motion and the larger plan enacted later, but I have a hard to time understanding how that wouldn't lead to conflicts. As others have pointed out, the Moynihan project had been reduced to little more than a NJ Transit terminal. Have we really lost so much? I'm comfortable gambling that the MSG-Penn project will come to fruition and ultimately address a much greater need.

[New Brunswick Station]

Here are some suggestions for the new Pennsylvania Station. "Moynihan Concourse" refers to the Moynihan Station (in the location, although not necessarily in the form, of thr proposal) and "Silver Concourse" refers to the overhauled main station.

My current thinking is to combine the Beaux Arts grandeur of the original Penn Station with the practicality and space usage of Tokyo's Shibuya Station or Shinjuku Station (both stations have department stores on top, and Shinjuku also has an underground mall attached to it), or Nagoya Station in Nagoya (which has an office building and a hotel on top and a huge warren of underground shops around it). The scheme would be as follows: an airy glass canopy over the current Madison Square Garden area, which would house a grand headhouse for Amtrak and LIRR passengers, as well as Moynihan Concourse in the Farley for NJT passengers, would comprise Penn Station; there would be passageways directly connecting Moynihan Concourse and Silver Concourse (I'm naming it for Sheldon Silver), full of shops and restaurants, to Madison Square Garden (which would be located in western Farley and bear a resemblance to Madison Sq Garden number 2, the Sanford White version, although likely with an office building somewhere around or even on top of it). One Penn Plaza would stay put, but would be gussied up and possibly a hotel put into part of it. Another skyscraper would arise (the "Campanile") on one side of the Silver Concourse (the Amtrak/LIRR headhouse), with offices, a hotel, and more shopping opportunities, including at least one large store (maybe something like the Manhattan Macy's, which would complement the Japanese department stores found at Japanese urban stations). The place would have a nightlife and have indoor connections to any new development over the West Side Yards. And some parts would have a very European Beaux Arts feel, while others would resemble the latest modern architecture elsewhere in Manhattan. It would be a New York Shinjuku/Shibuya.

So what do you guys think?

[londonlawyer]

Here are some suggestions for the new Pennsylvania Station. "Moynihan Concourse" refers to the Moynihan Station (in the location, although not necessarily in the form, of thr proposal) and "Silver Concourse" refers to the overhauled main station.

My current thinking is to combine the Beaux Arts grandeur of the original Penn Station with.....

I agree with you. It would be economically feasible to rebuild the facade western facade of the original Penn Station along 7th Ave.

[lofter1]

I'd go for just about anything that would include taking down the existing POS that sits on 7th Avenue from 33rd > 31st.

[BPC]

I would turn Eighth Avenue itself between 32nd and 34th into the new Penn Station arrivals hall, and run vehicle traffic through a viaduct over and around it, just like Grand Central does with the Park Avenue viaduct. The grand columns of Farley would become the internal western wall of the arrivals hall. The scheme works so well with GC, I can't understand why no one has considered it for Penn. What does sleazy Eighth Avenue get top priority?

[Derek2k3]

"We're Never Getting the Majesty Back"

NY Post
PENN STATION BLUES
By STEVE CUOZZO

October 18, 2006 -- AS the long-aborning plan for Moynihan Station faces an almost certain premature burial today at the hands of Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, there's plenty of emotion to go around: sadness, that a good and popular project won't get off the drawing board; outrage, that one local legislator with a private agenda can frustrate the will of two presidents, four past and present senators from New York, two New York mayors and the governor.

But there's another dismal truth that Moynihan Station's proponents won't acknowledge. Propaganda to the contrary, it could not in any sense "recapture" the grandeur and majesty of the original Penn Station - a fallacy that's been the project's raison d'etre ever since it was first proposed in 1993.

The Moynihan project would certainly beautify and reclaim the old Farley Post Office building for better use. It might dazzle those impressed with tall glass roofs above shopping arcades. But even though it would be much better to have the new station, its planners were thinking backward.

Sentimental architecture's attempts to turn back the clock - like Jay Gatsby's "boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past" - usually produce results as lifeless as Gatsby's body at the end of F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel.

For starters, the Moynihan Station is in the wrong place: inside the Farley building west of Eighth Avenue, where it would mainly benefit New Jersey Transit commuters.

Users of Amtrak, the LIRR and the subways would continue to use the existing wretched station under Madison Square Garden. Few if any would ever walk a block west underground to the new facility.

But the larger issue is that no modern building can remotely evoke the old Penn Station, completed in 1910 with awe-inspiring interior spaces that laugh at latter-day attempts to replicate them on the cheap.

The Winter Garden at Battery Park City is a fine piece of work. Its crown of glass and steel has been compared to the old station's concourse. But no contemporary structure comes close to capturing the "sound of time," as Lorraine Diehl's fine book, "The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station," memorably expressed the wonder evoked by its unmistakeably cathedral-like echoes.

The new station would more likely capture the sounds of a shopping mall - which is what the current design most closely resembles, ever since David Childs' original vision of a soaring glass-and-steel canopy was dumbed down by an army of new architects.

The claim that Moynihan Station would be worthy of the original has always seemed fraudulent to those of us who remember it. The void its early-'60s demolition left remains as aching 42 years later as the one at Ground Zero does after a mere five.

I first saw its wretched replacement in 1967, when I was 17. All that marble, granite and glass gone - dissolved in an underground warren that was depressing even when new. The loss was the more unforgivable because it was caused not by foreign terrorists, but by local businessmen and city officials who stood by for it.

But certain wonders of the past can't be recreated. The old station was erected in an industrial age by the Pennsylvania Railroad, which was wealthier and more powerful at the time than any corporation today.

It could afford to build a 277-foot-long waiting room modeled on the Roman Baths of Caracalla, with a ceiling 150 feet high. It could afford a concourse with a ceiling of glass and steel that seemed a magical distillation of the great city beyond.

No company or government could afford such a masterpiece today. Nor can we afford to yearn for the past at a time when the future steals so remorselessly upon our city.

scuozzo@nypost.com

[ablarc]

But the larger issue is that no modern building can remotely evoke the old Penn Station, completed in 1910 with awe-inspiring interior spaces that laugh at latter-day attempts to replicate them on the cheap.
Ironically, even old Penn Station was somewhat "on the cheap" compared with its Roman model. Those maginficent groined vaults, for example, weren't made of masonry. They weren't even structure in compression; they were thin, suspended plaster shells.

Still, they were magnificent; folks knew how to do phony well in those days.

[Eugenious]

"We're Never Getting the Majesty Back"

NY Post
PENN STATION BLUES
By STEVE CUOZZO

October 18, 2006 -- AS the long-aborning plan for Moynihan Station faces an almost certain premature burial today at the hands of Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, there's plenty of emotion to go around: sadness, that a good and popular project won't get off the drawing board; outrage, that one local legislator with a private agenda can frustrate the will of two presidents, four past and present senators from New York, two New York mayors and the governor.

But there's another dismal truth that Moynihan Station's proponents won't acknowledge. Propaganda to the contrary, it could not in any sense "recapture" the grandeur and majesty of the original Penn Station - a fallacy that's been the project's raison d'etre ever since it was first proposed in 1993.

The Moynihan project would certainly beautify and reclaim the old Farley Post Office building for better use. It might dazzle those impressed with tall glass roofs above shopping arcades. But even though it would be much better to have the new station, its planners were thinking backward.

Sentimental architecture's attempts to turn back the clock - like Jay Gatsby's "boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past" - usually produce results as lifeless as Gatsby's body at the end of F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel.

For starters, the Moynihan Station is in the wrong place: inside the Farley building west of Eighth Avenue, where it would mainly benefit New Jersey Transit commuters.

Users of Amtrak, the LIRR and the subways would continue to use the existing wretched station under Madison Square Garden. Few if any would ever walk a block west underground to the new facility.

But the larger issue is that no modern building can remotely evoke the old Penn Station, completed in 1910 with awe-inspiring interior spaces that laugh at latter-day attempts to replicate them on the cheap.

The Winter Garden at Battery Park City is a fine piece of work. Its crown of glass and steel has been compared to the old station's concourse. But no contemporary structure comes close to capturing the "sound of time," as Lorraine Diehl's fine book, "The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station," memorably expressed the wonder evoked by its unmistakeably cathedral-like echoes.

The new station would more likely capture the sounds of a shopping mall - which is what the current design most closely resembles, ever since David Childs' original vision of a soaring glass-and-steel canopy was dumbed down by an army of new architects.

The claim that Moynihan Station would be worthy of the original has always seemed fraudulent to those of us who remember it. The void its early-'60s demolition left remains as aching 42 years later as the one at Ground Zero does after a mere five.

I first saw its wretched replacement in 1967, when I was 17. All that marble, granite and glass gone - dissolved in an underground warren that was depressing even when new. The loss was the more unforgivable because it was caused not by foreign terrorists, but by local businessmen and city officials who stood by for it.

But certain wonders of the past can't be recreated. The old station was erected in an industrial age by the Pennsylvania Railroad, which was wealthier and more powerful at the time than any corporation today.

It could afford to build a 277-foot-long waiting room modeled on the Roman Baths of Caracalla, with a ceiling 150 feet high. It could afford a concourse with a ceiling of glass and steel that seemed a magical distillation of the great city beyond.

No company or government could afford such a masterpiece today. Nor can we afford to yearn for the past at a time when the future steals so remorselessly upon our city.

scuozzo@nypost.com

I agree, we can't cling to what is gone if we hope to move forward. A new progressively-modern train station that uplifts the spirits of the people of the city is the best possible outcome.

[lofter1]

IMO the latest "proposal" from SOM for the new main station to go up on the MSG site doesn't seem to fit the bill ...

***

[New Brunswick Station]

IMO the latest "proposal" from SOM for the new main station to go up on the MSG site doesn't seem to fit the bill ...

***

"It looks fine to me - it needs architectural tweaks, though. They have most of what I'm looking for in there - a nice high skylight, daylight on the platforms, and plenty of real estate for (presumably) shopping purposes - but an office building and a hotel would look nice in there, and it's not retro enough. Needs more detailed artwork and it needs to complement the original Penn Station a bit better." - what I said before I realized that the label said "Farley Moynihan 03" in there

Well, most of my comments still stand - it seems a decent idea to work on and the architecture of the MSG site COULD use a tweak.

The New York Post: "No company or government could afford such a masterpiece today. Nor can we afford to yearn for the past at a time when the future steals so remorselessly upon our city."

Oh yeah? Try telling the Japanese that. It's not the Baths of Caracalla, but it nonetheless proves that assertation false, at least as far as Japan is concerned.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Shinjuku-station-night.jpg/800px-Shinjuku-station-night.jpg

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shinjuku-station-night.jpg

[ablarc]

Hire Gehry for this one.

[New Brunswick Station]

http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~building-pc/photo-tokyo-air/sinzyuku-7.JPG gives a good idea of how Shinjuku station looks in its surroundings. While the station itself is of an impressive size, much of it appears to be a large warren, but the the station has enormous department stores within or next door to it, and other grand architecture, including Tokyo's City Hall, within a few blocks of it, much of which can be accessed by the public.

[tmg]

I've always loved Madrid's Atocha station. Instead of a modern, air-conditioned station, this has a steamy tropical forest in its interior. Truly a surreal urban experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atocha

Sadly, the charm of Atocha will always be marred by the memory of the terrorist attacks that happened there. But perhaps it can provide some inspiration for innovation on the site of MSG.

[pianoman11686]

Ironically, even old Penn Station was somewhat "on the cheap" compared with its Roman model. Those maginficent groined vaults, for example, weren't made of masonry. They weren't even structure in compression; they were thin, suspended plaster shells.

Still, they were magnificent; folks knew how to do phony well in those days.

Ironic, yes, but not without its own merits. There was that emphasis on craftsmanship, on actually taking the time to sculpt and build something beautiful. These days, it's much more likely for the emphasis to be on meeting the budget, and cutting costs of anything that doesn't serve a function. That's why Calatrava is so special. He manages to fuse the demands of modernity with the not-yet-dead brilliance of sculpture. It may be costly, but at least it doesn't appear excessive.

So, a Beaux-Arts resurgence at MSG? I don't see it happening. Unless the city can perhaps convince Google, which just moved in to a new building nearby, to fund and build it. They've got the money, and they certainly seem to know how to spend it well.

[Eugenious]

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/2006/10/moynihan_station_choked_by_pol.html



0/19/06

12:30 PM

The State Politic (http://nymag.com/daily/politics/the_state_politic)


Moynihan Station Choked by Political Strong-arming

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/20061019moynihan.jpg


What with all the recent fun over pages, chauffeurs, and the Pirro reality show, it's something of a shock to be reminded that there's actual government going on too. Or nongovernment, which often is just as significant.

There was no shortage of agendas at work in yesterday's vote to delay the building of Moynihan Station yet again. Dithering by the U.S. Postal Service initially slowed things down, but George Pataki has had twelve years to put shovels to the old Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue. He shows a newfound sense of urgency in the project, perhaps because he has only ten weeks left in office and could use a legacy greater than setting a record for last-minute patronage appointments.


The Dolans and Cablevision are angling for a new Madison Square Garden on the post-office site, but the Bloomberg administration, still stung by James Dolan's torpedoing of the West Side stadium, is in no hurry to help with that piece of the puzzle. The Ross and Roth real-estate-development empires recently acquired big chunks of property adjacent to the prospective station, giving them a sizable bargaining chip in the negotiations. There may also be legitimate financing problems, as Alan Hevesi has claimed. Eliot Spitzer, governor-in-waiting, says he only wants the best deal for the city and state — but he certainly wouldn't mind if that deal doesn't happen until he's officially in office.


Yet all of that stuff is subject to reasonable horse-trading, and it's all secondary to the role of state assembly speaker Sheldon Silver. He controls one of the three votes on the Public Authorities Control Board, which needs to approve the project unanimously. Yesterday Silver said no. He cited almost all of the above as reasons for his veto; what Silver didn't say is that by stalling the project, he puts some credit in the favor bank for his future give-and-take with Governor Spitzer.


But the overriding constant in all this has somehow been overlooked: Silver's demand that rebuilding ground zero and the downtown business district, which Silver represents in the assembly, take priority over any midtown development. To Silver, more midtown office space is a dangerous competitor to the more-deserving, still-recovering financial district. He's also suspicious that the real motivation for the Bloomberg administration's attempt to scatter new business districts throughout the city is an old-fashioned coziness with developers.


In some ways Silver's dogged focus is admirable. But for the thousands of commuters who'll trudge through the outmoded Penn Station even longer thanks to yesterday's maneuvering — and for the rest of the city, which is missing out on a new architectural showpiece — Silver's intransigence is only the latest example of why people hate Albany.

— Chris Smith

[krulltime]

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/20061019moynihan.jpg


But for the thousands of commuters who'll trudge through the outmoded Penn Station even longer thanks to yesterday's maneuvering — and for the rest of the city, which is missing out on a new architectural showpiece — Silver's intransigence is only the latest example of why people hate Albany.

Yes I hate Albany when it comes to not allowing one of the best developments that our city needs to become a reality. I will take this 'new Penn Station' over what happens on Ground zero anytime. That is why I hate government developements. They are so political about it.

[NYguy]

NY Times
Editorial


The Governor and the Station

October 21, 2006

It had been Gov. George Pataki’s fervent wish to put a ceremonial shovel in the ground this month to begin the redevelopment of part of Manhattan’s grand old post office building into a railroad station named after the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. That won’t happen now that the governor has lost a critical vote on the project.

Angry and frustrated, the governor is threatening to kill the project altogether. We understand his disappointment, but he has no right to take his feelings out on the city. Mr. Pataki had 12 years to get this project going, and it is utterly unreasonable of him to do anything that could leave New Yorkers without the hope of replacing the dismal Penn Station for a very long time. Mr. Pataki has no choice but to let a new governor pick up this project.

The Moynihan Station has been in the works, often in fits and starts, for all of Mr. Pataki’s three terms in office. This week, with his administration nearing an end, the station finally went to the Public Authorities Control Board, where state development projects must get unanimous support from the speaker of the State Assembly, the president of the State Senate and the governor. The lone Democrat, Speaker Sheldon Silver, vetoed the plan.

Bringing everything to a halt until his own, sometimes oblique, concerns are satisfied is a familiar posture for Mr. Silver. In this case, he is right in saying the current plan does only part of the work — renovating a third of the Farley Post Office building into an alternative entrance to Penn Station. It’s obvious that a better approach would be to consider the bigger but still mostly unformed proposal that would move Madison Square Garden to the back of the Farley building, renovate the front part of the building, raze the hideous current Garden and redevelop that site to restore the entire Penn Station complex to some of its former glory.

The promise of Moynihan Station has been tantalizing for too long. The current Penn Station is an abomination — underground, harshly lit and graceless. The original building, a stately twin to the post office, was torn down four decades ago. Merely renovating the Farley would not bring back the old glory, nor would it accommodate enough commuter rail traffic. What’s needed is a complete solution.

Calling the project dead — as Mr. Pataki’s appointee, Charles Gargano, did — only risks losing $230 million in federal financing for Moynihan Station, and that is unacceptable. As it now stands, the developers should be able to begin a supplemental environmental impact statement, and resubmit a plan for a vote. That could happen as early as next spring, when Mr. Pataki’s successor is in office.

[New Brunswick Station]

NY Times
Editorial


The Governor and the Station

October 21, 2006

It had been Gov. George Pataki’s fervent wish to put a ceremonial shovel in the ground this month to begin the redevelopment of part of Manhattan’s grand old post office building into a railroad station named after the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. That won’t happen now that the governor has lost a critical vote on the project.

Angry and frustrated, the governor is threatening to kill the project altogether. We understand his disappointment, but he has no right to take his feelings out on the city. Mr. Pataki had 12 years to get this project going, and it is utterly unreasonable of him to do anything that could leave New Yorkers without the hope of replacing the dismal Penn Station for a very long time. Mr. Pataki has no choice but to let a new governor pick up this project.

The Moynihan Station has been in the works, often in fits and starts, for all of Mr. Pataki’s three terms in office. This week, with his administration nearing an end, the station finally went to the Public Authorities Control Board, where state development projects must get unanimous support from the speaker of the State Assembly, the president of the State Senate and the governor. The lone Democrat, Speaker Sheldon Silver, vetoed the plan.

Bringing everything to a halt until his own, sometimes oblique, concerns are satisfied is a familiar posture for Mr. Silver. In this case, he is right in saying the current plan does only part of the work — renovating a third of the Farley Post Office building into an alternative entrance to Penn Station. It’s obvious that a better approach would be to consider the bigger but still mostly unformed proposal that would move Madison Square Garden to the back of the Farley building, renovate the front part of the building, raze the hideous current Garden and redevelop that site to restore the entire Penn Station complex to some of its former glory.

The promise of Moynihan Station has been tantalizing for too long. The current Penn Station is an abomination — underground, harshly lit and graceless. The original building, a stately twin to the post office, was torn down four decades ago. Merely renovating the Farley would not bring back the old glory, nor would it accommodate enough commuter rail traffic. What’s needed is a complete solution.

Calling the project dead — as Mr. Pataki’s appointee, Charles Gargano, did — only risks losing $230 million in federal financing for Moynihan Station, and that is unacceptable. As it now stands, the developers should be able to begin a supplemental environmental impact statement, and resubmit a plan for a vote. That could happen as early as next spring, when Mr. Pataki’s successor is in office.

Gargano is a fool. And so is Pataki. If Pataki carries out his threat to do everything to undermine the cause of Moynihan or New Penn Station, he will leave a sour taste in the mouth of New York voters, which would come back to bite him should he make a presidential run.

[Vengineer]

Gargano is a fool. And so is Pataki. If Pataki carries out his threat to do everything to undermine the cause of Moynihan or New Penn Station, he will leave a sour taste in the mouth of New York voters, which would come back to bite him should he make a presidential run.

Pataki a President? HA!

[lofter1]

Gargano is a fool. And so is Pataki. If Pataki carries out his threat to do everything to undermine the cause of Moynihan or New Penn Station, he will leave a sour taste in the mouth of New York voters ...

Potato Head's approval ratings already suck:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11373.xml?ReleaseID=932 (June 2006):

Gov. George Pataki gets 4 percent "great," 21 percent "good," 45 percent "so-so" and 30 percent "bad."

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2006/50StateGovernor060822Net.htm

APPROVAL RATINGS FOR ALL 50 GOVERNORS (Released 08/22/06)

SORTED BY 'NET JOB APPROVAL' (approval minus disapproval)
Pataki, George (New York (http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=3dc377bc-f623-44a8-9d7f-3b3cf24dd6bf)) 44th (from the TOP)


Approve: 42%


Disapprove: 54%


Net 8/06 Approval: -12%


NY (http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollTrack.aspx?g=1ba04510-7f2f-40d3-840f-1f52e28adbf3) (Polling: WABC-TV WNYT-TV WGRZ-TV WHEC-TV)

[TonyO]

NY Observer

Speaker Silver on Moynihan: Deal by June ’07

By: Matthew Schuerman
Date: 10/30/2006
Page: 11


Fresh from vetoing the project to turn the Farley Post Office Building into Moynihan Station, a new rail hub, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver nevertheless sounded chipper about a bigger, better train-station plan in his offices on the evening of Oct. 24.

“We’re talking probably sometime before June,” said Mr. Silver, a Democrat, in an hour-long interview with The Observer, when asked when he thought the project could get its final approval. “If it’s given a priority, it will come together, probably in the next four to six months. The deal is already together. When the developers came here to make a presentation, they gave me the full plan. That’s all they talked about. They laid it out right on that table with plastic models and everything.”

By June, he said, the private developers will agree to contribute some $700 million to $900 million to renovate Penn Station; the Mayor will have to extend Madison Square Garden’s tax break; and all of the paperwork will be redone for the new project.

On Oct. 18, Mr. Silver made history of a sort: He blocked the $900 million renovation of the Farley Post Office Building into a much-hyped new train station that was, in some ways, really just a glorified entryway.

But what a glorified entryway it would be: a spacious waiting room covered by a skylight, overpriced bars and restaurants just like in Grand Central, and the same McKim, Mead and White architecture that distinguished the original Penn Station until it met the wrecking ball 40 years ago.

It was the second time that Mr. Silver’s representative on the Public Authorities Control Board—a three-vote panel that approves major capital contributions by state agencies—killed a project. (Last year, he abstained from voting on the West Side Stadium, and the item therefore died.) But it couldn’t have come at a more strategic time: Governor George Pataki, who had turned the new station into a signature item, was nearing the end of his term and was therefore politically helpless. As Mr. Silver, and his wingman, State Comptroller Alan Hevesi, nitpicked the plan apart, the Governor became increasingly helpless, finally threatening to undo the entire deal unless Mr. Silver gave his approval. That didn’t do the trick.

Mr. Silver hotly disputes the notion that he cast his vote to earn a chit from the likely next Governor, Eliot Spitzer, who has generally sided with Mr. Silver on the issue.

“If we are going to do Moynihan Station, the idea of the Governor incorporating a phony groundbreaking into his legacy is not the motivating factor in getting this done,” Mr. Silver said. He spoke from his office in lower Manhattan, a few blocks from the World Trade Center site, where he pointed out that Mr. Pataki laid a cornerstone for the Freedom Tower in 2004, long before the plans were final. The cornerstone will not be used in the current scheme for the tower. “That is what his 12-year administration has been about: photo opportunities.”

Mr. Silver said that Mr. Spitzer, who happens to also be a Democrat, will be able to forget about ceremonials and undertake the bigger project that has lurked in the background but never been publicly proposed. Under that plan, the developers that won the bid to redo the post office, Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies, have proposed moving Madison Square Garden, which sits above Penn Station and across Eighth Avenue from Farley/Moynihan, a block west, into the rear half of the post-office building. (The train station would go in the front half.) Then, since Vornado owns pretty much all of the real estate nearby, it could construct three or four new gleaming modern skyscrapers, leaving space for a skylight that would shine down onto a newly renovated and expanded Pennsylvania Station. Moynihan would also go forward at the same time.

No one else has suggested that all of those moving parts could come together by June. A spokesman for Governor Pataki said it would take between 12 to 24 months to get a revised plan to the PACB. Kent Barwick, the president of the Municipal Art Society and the main opponent of the larger plan, has estimated that it would take even longer. (Moynihan Station, after all, dates back to at least 1992.)

There are just two catches.

One: Who will pay for the new Penn Station, on top of the $550 million that the public is already contributing to create Moynihan? A spokesman for Mr. Pataki called the speaker’s veto a “back-room deal to finance a new Madison Square Garden on the backs of taxpayers.”

Mr. Silver suggested that the developers contribute “70, 80, 90 percent of the cost,” though he said it would depend on how much value Vornado and Related would get out of the right to get rid of Madison Square Garden.

Two: The Garden will reportedly only move if it gets to take its property-tax exemption—valued at about $10 million a year—with it to a new location. That would be a city decision, and as recently as Oct. 19, Mayor Michael Bloomberg*—who battled Madison Square Garden’s owners over the failed West Side stadium last year—stood his ground, insisting on taking that tax break away if the arena should move.

Mr. Silver said he’d heard that the Mayor would be willing to relent, “even though he doesn’t like it.”

And if Mr. Bloomberg sticks to his guns and refuses to give in, Mr. Silver said, “then it will cost him a billion dollars to renovate Penn Station.”

copyright © 2006 the new york observer, llc | all rights reserved

[Eugenious]

NY Observer

Mr. Silver said he’d heard that the Mayor would be willing to relent, “even though he doesn’t like it.”

And if Mr. Bloomberg sticks to his guns and refuses to give in, Mr. Silver said, “then it will cost him a billion dollars to renovate Penn Station.”

copyright © 2006 the new york observer, llc | all rights reserved

Here's something very fitting that Alexander Hamilton in all his glory said,

"And so far even as might concern the corruption of leading members, by whose arts and influence the majority may have been inveigled into measures odious to the community; if the proofs of that corruption should be satisfactory, the usual propensity of human nature will warrant us in concluding, that there would be commonly no defect of inclination in the body, to divert the public resentment from themselves, by a ready sacrifice of the authors of their mismanagement and disgrace."

from
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_2_5s10.html

[Fahzee]

By June, he said, the private developers will agree to contribute some $700 million to $900 million to renovate Penn Station; the Mayor will have to extend Madison Square Garden’s tax break; and all of the paperwork will be redone for the new project.



I think the sentence in bold neatly sums up Silvers motivations. He will only approve the "full plan" - but the full plan will only exist if there are tax breaks for the Dolans

He is therefore holding the project hostage on the behalf of the Dolans - which may not be illegal, but certainly seems unethical.

Normally, I'd expect Elliot Spitzer to investigate this kind of behavoir....
I'd love to see how much the Dolans / Cablevision have contributed to Silver / Spitzer

[ZippyTheChimp]

I think the sentence in bold neatly sums up Silvers motivations. He will only approve the "full plan" - but the full plan will only exist if there are tax breaks for the DolansMy initial agreement that the approval vote should be delayed was based on the realization that, like them or not, the Dolans hold the upper hand if there is going to be any movement on a "plan B."

They do not have to move MSG. It sits in the best spot in the entire city for an arena. It was foolish to thing you could start work on "plan A," and deal with these issues later. The Moynihan renovation included 800,000 sq ft of retail space in the annex. Without that component, the train station, as inadequate as it was, would make even less sense. And if the Dolans refused to move, Vornado/Related would not be enthusiastic about completing the annex component, because once done, there would be no opportunity to move MSG and unlock the development potential on the east side of Penn Station.


The deal is already together. When the developers came here to make a presentation, they gave me the full plan. That’s all they talked about. They laid it out right on that table with plastic models and everything.”

Gargano insisted there was no "plan B." The man has lied again. The tactic he used to get the vote pushed through, that any delay would result in the loss of funds and/or opportunity, has been used before. Same thing was stated to push through the sale of the railyards to the Jets - if we don't act now, we'll lose the Olympics.

Blah-blah-blah.

Whenever projects are rushed, there are usually unpleasant (for the taxpayer) hidden financials. It's why the Yankee and Mets stadiums that are being paid for by the teams are costing the taxpayers over $500 million.

I know this money stuff is boring when compared to the projects themselves, but it's the main reason that they get killed. The city has to invest a lot of money in the near future on needed infrastructure, and it has to borrow.

Source: NYC Comptroller Report on Capital Debt (http://www.comptroller.nyc.gov/bureaus/bud/05reports/CAPDEBTdec2005.pdf)


Even after adjusting for the effects of population change and tax revenue, City debt has
expanded at a significant rate since FY 1990. Debt per capita, which amounted to $2,490 in
FY 1990, grew to $6,209 in FY 2004, an increase of 149 percent. Over the same period, the
cumulative growth rate in debt per capita exceeded the rate of inflation by 99 percentage points
and the growth rate in City tax revenues by 62 percentage points. The debt per capita figure does
not include the debt of the New York Municipal Water Finance Authority (NYWFA) and the
MTA, both of which greatly affect user fees paid by City residents. If this debt were included in
the calculation, the debt per capita figure would increase to approximately $10,700.


The debt burden of NYC exceeds the average per capita debt burden of a sample of large
U.S. cities by a margin of 2.5 to one. At $6,209 per capita in FY 2004, New York City surpasses
the city with the next highest debt burden (Chicago), by 1.50 to 1, or $2,077 per capita, as shown
in Table 10.

The best course is to find out now, what is going to be built, who is going to build it, and who is going to pay for what.

As for the Farley Building itself: It will not be torn down as suggested. It's a city landmark.

[NYguy]

They do not have to move MSG. It sits in the best spot in the entire city for an arena.

Or for office space, like the kind clustered around and above Grand Central. (a "critical mass", as they like to call it). But I think with MSG, its more about getting a new arena than moving. Gehry's brand new Brooklyn arena is coming, but the Garden wants to be the top dog in town.



It was foolish to thing you could start work on "plan A," and deal with these issues later.....Gargano insisted there was no "plan B." The man has lied again.

How he could say there was no plan B, even after the developers presented plan B to others is mind boggling.

[NYguy]

“We’re talking probably sometime before June,” said Mr. Silver, a Democrat, in an hour-long interview with The Observer, when asked when he thought the project could get its final approval. “If it’s given a priority, it will come together, probably in the next four to six months. The deal is already together. When the developers came here to make a presentation, they gave me the full plan. That’s all they talked about. They laid it out right on that table with plastic models and everything.”

And that couldn't have been done a couple of weeks ago?



By June, he said, the private developers will agree to contribute some $700 million to $900 million to renovate Penn Station; the Mayor will have to extend Madison Square Garden’s tax break; and all of the paperwork will be redone for the new project.

Interesting. The developers were asking for a $1 Billion contribution from the public. Now they are ready to put up 70 to 90% of that themselves to get this thing going. I wonder what other deals have been worked behind closed doors.

[lofter1]

Those who lie often tend to keep on lying, no matter the situation ...

[ZippyTheChimp]

Or for office space, like the kind clustered around and above Grand Central. (a "critical mass", as they like to call it). But I think with MSG, its more about getting a new arena than moving. Gehry's brand new Brooklyn arena is coming, but the Garden wants to be the top dog in town.That's true, but relative to all other parties, they would be hurt the least if the proposal never materializes. That reality has to be recognized by city government.

[BPC]

I hate tax breaks for private sports facilities, but given that we are handing some $1 billion combined to the Mets and Yankees, in each case to essentially replace existing facilities on the same sites with minimal net benefit for the City, how on earth can we quibble about $10 million per year for the Dolans, as the price to get MSG out of the way and allow Penn Station to be restored to some semblance of its former glory? Penn Station is the busiest train station in the City, maybe the world, and it is a dank, dark dungeon. We deserve better.

[tmg]

The New York Times
Blocks: With Each Redesign, a Sparer Penn Station Emerges
By DAVID W. DUNLAP
Published: October 26, 2006

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/10/26/nyregion/26blocks600.4.jpg
Renderings of the new Pennsylvania Station, to be named for Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, by, from left, Skidmore, Owings & Merrill in 1999; James Carpenter Design Associates and Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum, 2005; and another from Skidmore, Owings & Merrill this year.

THE creation of a visionary new Pennsylvania Station is a goal I strongly support,” Gov. George E. Pataki said last week as he tried to advance the latest version of a 13-year-old plan to expand the station westward across Eighth Avenue into the landmark General Post Office, or James A. Farley Building.

Because it was opposed by Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, the current plan failed to win the unanimous approval of the Public Authorities Control Board on Oct. 18. Whether it is now dead or somehow salvageable remains to be seen.

If, however, the idea survives of transforming the mail sorting floor at Farley into a large new train hall, another question needs answering. Just how visionary is it?

To judge from architectural renderings, the design is much less imaginative than it was two years ago, and far more utilitarian.

It has been easy to lose track of the design in recent months. The political battle over Penn Station between the Republican governor and the Democratic speaker has demanded attention. So has the real estate intrigue over the future of Madison Square Garden, which may also move into the Farley building, permitting an expansive renovation of the station in its current location. All of this is complicated by the prospect of a new governor.

But design is critical in what would be one of the most important public spaces created in New York in a generation. Its name, Moynihan Station, would commemorate Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who cared deeply about civic architecture. And many New Yorkers probably don’t realize how much the plans have changed.

“I do think the current iteration is certainly very majestic and very grand,” said Robin Stout, the president of the Moynihan Station Development Corporation, a state agency.

In every case, the main concourse — the train hall — would be fashioned from the old mail sorting room. It occupies an inner court, like the hole in the structural doughnut of the Farley building, and sits directly over the westernmost end of the center passenger platforms, allowing direct access.

The best-known design for Moynihan Station, by David M. Childs and his colleagues at Skidmore, Owings & Merrill (architects of the Freedom Tower at the World Trade Center site), was unveiled in 1999. It would have involved removing the sorting room floor and creating a multilevel concourse in which passengers waiting above could glimpse the train movements below. The original roof trusses would have been preserved under a new skylight.

Last year, that was supplanted by a design from James Carpenter Design Associates and Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum. Their plans showed a single-level hall under an undulating skylight supported on slender columns. This was intended to evoke the concourse of the original Penn Station by McKim, Mead & White.

This year, Skidmore returned with the sparest design yet: a single-level hall under a barrel-vaulted skylight. Absent any other bold architectural flourishes, it seems to defer to the original facades facing the inner court, which are historic but aesthetically undistinguished. After all, they were never really meant to be seen.

“I remain partial to the more ambitious (and expensive) scheme,” said Prof. Hilary Ballon of Columbia University, an architectural historian who devoted 45 pages to the original Skidmore project in her 2002 book, “New York’s Pennsylvania Stations.”

Eric Marcus, an author who was working on his own book about the reconstruction of Penn Station until the development project became hopelessly delayed, described the latest version of the train hall as an “uninspired matchbox covered with a glass roof.”

For officials, however, the latest design has advantages over its predecessors, besides lower cost. There would be a far greater volume than in the original Skidmore plan. Mr. Childs has pointed out that the Moynihan Station ceiling would be 12 feet higher than the ceiling at Grand Central Terminal. By eliminating floor openings that would have permitted views down to the tracks, there will be a gain in space for passengers.

In contrast to the interim design, the new plan does not have exposed columns, which might pose a security threat, given their vulnerability to knapsack or suitcase bombs.

“It’s going to look like a roofed-over interior no matter what you do,” said Peg Breen, the president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, a preservation group that supports the Farley plan. “There are ways to dress it up, but only if people realize that this should be a real train station, not an afterthought or a forecourt to the Garden.”

Lorraine B. Diehl, who wrote “The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station” 21 years ago, said she hoped an architectural phoenix could emerge from the current political morass.

“It occurred to me,” she said in an e-mail message, “that this newest delay might clear the slate of the last two sorry accommodations to commerce (or whatever was being accommodated) and perhaps a decent station might finally arise.”

[antinimby]

So, is it safe to say that the SOM design is dead?

[kliq6]

depends if the development team leave and a new team comes on, if related/vornado stay, SOM will be the arch of record

[Vengineer]

The SOM design will remain the same for now just without the intermodal hall (the best featureof the station in my opinion) to make room for MSG. The design team remains the same for the east building but a seperate team will be brought in for Madison Square Garden. Not a good idea in my opinion but it is the will of the developers nonetheless.

[londonlawyer]

The SOM design will remain the same for now just without the intermodal hall (the best featureof the station in my opinion) to make room for MSG. The design team remains the same for the east building but a seperate team will be brought in for Madison Square Garden. Not a good idea in my opinion but it is the will of the developers nonetheless.

Will there be two highrighes or four? Also will the horrible Penn Plaza on 7th be razed (or at least reclad)?

[Eugenious]

Will there be two highrighes or four? Also will the horrible Penn Plaza on 7th be razed (or at least reclad)?

They better raze everything between 7th&8th avenues! it would be a crime to build anything new while keeping any portion of this mostrosity in place! In fact the only true hope of my for the whole project is that they will replace the nastyness that is taking up the whole area between 31st-33rd sts.

[TREPYE]

Yes the Penn Plaza towers are grotesque but they will not be replaced with something else. What do you think this is the Singer Building???

[Vengineer]

Will there be two highrighes or four? Also will the horrible Penn Plaza on 7th be razed (or at least reclad)?

No I believe 2 Penn Plaza will remain. It can still be seen in the conceptual drawings. :( It is still too early to determine how many buildings will rise at the site.

[Vengineer]

There appears to be talk of a possible underground corridor linking Herald Square to the new MSG, connecting A,C,E,1,2,3 subway lines with N,Q,R,W,B,D,F and V with an option to link to the 7 train expansion.

[tmg]

There appears to be talk of a possible underground corridor linking Herald Square to the new MSG, connecting A,C,E,1,2,3 subway lines with N,Q,R,W,B,D,F and V with an option to link to the 7 train expansion.

Would this take advantage of the existing (but closed) 33rd Street passageway described here?
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/33passage.html

[TonyO]

NY Post

SILVER MEDDLE: MSG JOB FOR HIS DAUGHTER

By TOM TOPOUSIS

GOOD SPORTS: Madison Square Garden hired the daughter of an Albany ally, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver.
November 6, 2006 -- Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, who has used his muscle in Albany to kill two major projects that weren't in the interests of Madison Square Garden, once turned to the arena's owners to hire his then-pregnant daughter, The Post has learned.

Silver's daughter, Esti Fried, was hired as a temporary office worker at the arena during the summer of 2003 when she was about seven months pregnant - under a directive "that came from the top," the source said.

Fried stayed at the post, which paid about $15 an hour, for roughly two months until the blackout of 2003 hit and she left, presumably to give birth, the source said.

A spokesman for the Garden, Barry Watkins, defended the hiring. "She was well qualified for the position and did an excellent job in her time with the company," he said.

The hiring of Silver's daughter came as the battle over a West Side Stadium plan was just heating up. MSG bosses Charles and James Dolan were adamantly opposed to a new football stadium that would create a competitor to their arena's Manhattan monopoly.

The Dolans' Cablevision, which owns the Garden, spent $34 million on lobbying and advertising to block the project.

Despite that record level of spending, the $2.2 billion stadium plan for the Jets won every government approval, except for one - that of the Public Authorities Control Board, where Silver has a deciding vote.

A spokesman for Silver could not be reached yesterday.

The job for Silver's daughter also came as plans were being formulated to convert the Farley Post Office into the Moynihan Train Station, a $900 million project that could also serve as a site for a new Madison Square Garden on the Ninth Avenue side of the building.

Silver last month refused to back the Moynihan project that has been in the works for 12 years. Silver has insisted that he wants to wait for a more complete plan that would include a proposal for a new arena and a renovated Penn Station.

The Dolans, major campaign donors to both parties, have been generous to Silver and his political causes. From 2000 through 2003, they donated $24,150 to the Democratic Assembly Campaign Committee and $10,300 to Silver's campaign, state records show.

And Silver, a diehard Ranger fan, has been a guest at the Dolans' luxury box at MSG. In March, the state Lobbying Commission fined Cablevision $75,000 for failing to report the entertainment of Silver and other lawmakers as lobbying costs.

[krulltime]

Silver's daughter is so happy I am sure... ('Thank you daddy!')

Meanwhile...

City lives, dies by Silver sword (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27894&postcount=12)

[TREPYE]

NY Post

SILVER MEDDLE: MSG JOB FOR HIS DAUGHTER

November 6, 2006 -- Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, who has used his muscle in Albany to kill two major projects that weren't in the interests of Madison Square Garden, once turned to the arena's owners to hire his then-pregnant daughter, The Post has learned.


What a POS. :mad:

[kliq6]

Good old Shelly, always looking out for NYer's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lbjefferies]

disgusting.

[Vengineer]

He is the epitome of a dirty politician.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Look at all the ducks in a row. Let's see if they can hold the line. :)

First, the 2 1/2 year old Crain article:

West Side: Although there is plenty of evidence that this fiasco was a potential giveaway of city/state assets, let's call it a push.

BPC PILOTs: By charter, these funds are supposed to go toward low cost housing, not stadiums.

Moynihan: Silver opposed Gargano and his there is no Plan B Plan A, and favored exploring the nonexistent Plan B, which now we hear does exist.

South Ferry subway station: At the time the article was written, the MTA proposed the Second Ave Subway Lite, which would have terminated in Midtown. Silver withheld the MTA budget until they approved the present plan. The South Ferry station is under construction.

Beekman St: Bloomberg derailed the project when he denied funding for the school in the base. Silver got the funds restored. Excavation has begun.

WTC: 130 Liberty > LMDC > Pataki. Fiterman > State Dormitory > Pataki. WTC hole > PA > Pataki.

Yes. it was very, very bad of Silver to insist that Bloomberg pay more attention to the WTC, since Goldman Sachs was threatening to leave while Pataki was dreaming about the Iowa Caucus in 2008.

Silver put pressure on Bloomberg and Pataki to come to an agreement with Goldman Sachs. Pataki finally dropped the tunnel.

Silver supports Atlantic Yards.

The New York Post

One of the most powerful politicians in the state uses his influence to get his daughter a summer job at $600 a week. $4800. Wow.

The Post notes that the woman, who was 7 months pregnant when she got the job, stayed on the job...

two months until the blackout of 2003 hit and she left, presumably to give birth, the source said. Presumably? 7 + 2 = 9.

I am shocked that a public figure is seen in an owner's box at a sporting event. This is rare, no?

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/gallery/teapot.jpg



OK ducks...your turn to quack.

[BPC]

Actually, a pretty nice summary. If nothing else, Silver has been a great advocate for Lower Manhattan, and his intervention on the Far West Side has saved taxpayers a lot of loot.

As for his daughter's $600 per week temp job with MSG, please.

[TonyO]

^ Does Silver have a yea-nay vote on Atlantic Yards?

Recalling all his good deeds does not erase the fact that the man has a connection with the Dolans/MSG. There are arguments for and against Moynihan plan A moving forward but the lack-of-vote by Silver makes more sense. I find him to be annoying and with too much power, and now, conflicts of interest.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^ Does Silver have a yea-nay vote on Atlantic Yards?

Recalling all his good deeds does not erase the fact that the man has a connection with the Dolans/MSG. There are arguments for and against Moynihan plan A moving forward but the lack-of-vote by Silver makes more sense. I find him to be annoying and with too much power, and now, conflicts of interest.

Yes, he has a vote on AY.

The PACB votes over developments on land over which NYC has limited control. AY, like the Westside railyards is owned vy the MTA, and the EDC is the controlling agency. Both are state agencies.

Silver and the PACB have no vote in city or privately owned sites, where the city's ULURP takes control.

As for Silver's conflict of interest, I can't name one major politician that does not have some connection to a major figure in the private sector. Ratner and Pataki were college classmates. In his years in politics, there has never been any hint of corruption by Silver.

What Silver is: a typical politician that gets some things right, and some things wrong. It doesn't help him that he comes across as a dufus on TV. But he is a foil to Pataki who, in all his years as governor, has done little for the city.

[lbjefferies]

Look at all the ducks in a row. Let's see if they can hold the line. :)

First, the 2 1/2 year old Crain article:

West Side: Although there is plenty of evidence that this fiasco was a potential giveaway of city/state assets, let's call it a push.

BPC PILOTs: By charter, these funds are supposed to go toward low cost housing, not stadiums.

Moynihan: Silver opposed Gargano and his there is no Plan B Plan A, and favored exploring the nonexistent Plan B, which now we hear does exist.

South Ferry subway station: At the time the article was written, the MTA proposed the Second Ave Subway Lite, which would have terminated in Midtown. Silver withheld the MTA budget until they approved the present plan. The South Ferry station is under construction.

Beekman St: Bloomberg derailed the project when he denied funding for the school in the base. Silver got the funds restored. Excavation has begun.

WTC: 130 Liberty > LMDC > Pataki. Fiterman > State Dormitory > Pataki. WTC hole > PA > Pataki.

Yes. it was very, very bad of Silver to insist that Bloomberg pay more attention to the WTC, since Goldman Sachs was threatening to leave while Pataki was dreaming about the Iowa Caucus in 2008.

Silver put pressure on Bloomberg and Pataki to come to an agreement with Goldman Sachs. Pataki finally dropped the tunnel.

Silver supports Atlantic Yards.

The New York Post

One of the most powerful politicians in the state uses his influence to get his daughter a summer job at $600 a week. $4800. Wow.

The Post notes that the woman, who was 7 months pregnant when she got the job, stayed on the job...
Presumably? 7 + 2 = 9.

I am shocked that a public figure is seen in an owner's box at a sporting event. This is rare, no?
.

Puh-lease. If you really find it necessary to belittle the opinions of other people with your silly "ducks" comments in order to justify your idiotic support for a morally currupt politician then go right ahead. But you're just exposing yourself as a fool of a voter. Everyone knows that Silver shot down the Jets stadium (a perfect idea for the far west side) under the auspices of a much better offer form his good pals the Dolans. An offer that somehow vanished into thin air after the project was killed. Jesus don't be so naive.

And if he were really out for the public's interest regarding Moynihan, then why is there absolutely no activity there? Is an attempt to deny the governer an opportunity to put a shovel into the ground really worth tens of millions of taxpayer dollars?

He is scum. There is no way around it. And you're a schlemiel for putting him there.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
The "ducks" comment refers to how you all lined up in a row behind that article without any evidence to support it.


Everyone knows that Silver shot down the Jets stadium (a perfect idea for the far west side) under the auspices of a much better offer form his good pals the Dolans.That is was a perfect idea for the Westside is merely your opinion, which was not that of the majority of the people of New York. I was willing to call it a push just to avoid a drawn out discussion. That he did it under the auspices of a much better plan by the Dolans is again your opinion, unless you can provide some statement he made to that effect. Those opposed to the stadium plan have a different view.


And if he were really out for the public's interest regarding Moynihan, then why is there absolutely no activity there? Is an attempt to deny the governer an opportunity to put a shovel into the ground really worth tens of millions of taxpayer dollars?You can read back in this thread. I'm not going to bother, but Silver had said that he expects the Plan B offer to be ready by June.

It is plausible that Silver's motivation was to deny Pataki a photo-op, but as I stated, Silver is a typical politician.


He is scum. There is no way around it. And you're a schlemiel for putting him there.You have still provided no evidence that your response to the article, which implied political corruption, is justified.

If I wasn't directly involved in this exhange, you would be gone for the tone of your post.

[BPC]

BTW, for those interested in ferreting out Silver's REAL conflict of interest, as opposed to the silly one pointed out by the Post, it is that he continues to draw a big salary as of counsel at Weitz & Luxenberg, the #1 plaintiff's asbestos law firm in the City, which salary he repays by blocking all tort reform up in Albany. That being said, as a resident of Lower Manhattan, I believe he has been a great advocate for our community.

[NYguy]

Now the fun begins...

Observer

Lord Foster, Others Propose Massive Plan to Supplant Garden

By Matthew Schuerman

http://www.observer.com/data/articleimages/photoimages/111306_article_schuerman1.jpg

Goodbye, vomitory!


Four architectural firms presented plans to developers in closed-door meetings late last month for a redesigned Penn Station—with Madison Square Garden chopped off the top and moved one block west, and traded in for office towers arranged around a pedestal that would house the train station.

Lord Norman Foster, Cesar Pelli, Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates and David Childs of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill presented models showing anywhere from two to four towers of varying heights arranged around a pedestal that would house Penn Station, according to sources who would speak to The Observer only anonymously, in part for fear of prejudicing the process, and in part because each firm came up with two or three variations and it was hard to talk about them all.

But from their rather broad descriptions, some key points in the four plans emerged: Skylights would bring light down into the Penn Station waiting rooms belowground. In addition to the towers on the current Penn Station block, the models tended to show another tower, of about one million square feet, on the northeast corner of 33rd Street and Eighth Avenue, on a parcel where a low-lying Duane Reade now stands.

The plans were commissioned by the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust, the two firms that won a contract last year from a state agency to turn the Farley Post Office Building—at 32nd Street and Eighth Avenue—into a new train hub.

But since then, the developers have been working—at first secretly and then less so—on the logistics behind a much larger and more profitable Plan B, which would cover the blocks between 31st and 33rd streets, from Seventh to Ninth avenues, as well as part of the block to the north, east of Eighth Avenue.

In the past two months, the developers tapped the four architecture firms to come up with designs for remaking that five-block section of midtown west with a bright, airy and commuter-friendly Pennsylvania Station at its core.

The architectural bake-off, while customary for a project of this scope, signifies that the developers are moving forward even though—or perhaps because—the official status of both Moynihan Station (as the Farley building project has come to be called) and their own newer Plan B are uncertain.

Last month, State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver blocked the Moynihan renovation. Governor George Pataki had threatened to pull the plans from the table if they were not approved, but has yet to do so. Plan B still has months or years to go before it is even officially presented to the state economic-development agency.

All of which means that the developers have a strong incentive to come up with the pretty pictures to show Albany as soon as possible: The next Governor will largely determine the pace and the course of the project, as well as just how much of the $1 billion estimated cost of redoing Penn Station will be carried by taxpayers.

“If I were in their shoes, I would be trying to put together the most persuasive plan possible,” said Kent Barwick, the president of the Municipal Art Society, who added that he had no knowledge of the four architects’ designs. “You have to satisfy all of these people who have invested all these years and money in the Farley building. And then you have to make a persuasive case to the public to finance the thing.”

A spokesman for the developers, Bud Perrone, wouldn’t comment on particular architects and discounted the idea that a competition was underway.

“There is no competition or any such thing,” he told The Observer. “It is business as usual for Related and Vornado, which are constantly interviewing architects about various projects.”

Plan B, as the larger plan has come to be known, is at once a dream for commuters, a nightmare for preservationists and the commission of a lifetime for the winning architect. It is also pure gold for the developers. Steven Roth, the chief executive of Vornado, has said that the project would bring his company as much as $1.2 billion in profits.

Under Plan B, the Moynihan Station project would get done more or less as planned: The front section of the 1913 post office would be turned into a grand entrance to the train platforms below, complete with tony commuter shops à la Grand Central Terminal. But while the original plans for Moynihan Station were vague about what would happen to the rear half of the post office, Plan B calls for moving the Madison Square Garden arena there. That would free up most of the super-block between 31st and 33rd streets and Seventh and Eighth avenues for an office complex of about 5.5 million square feet. In the process, planners would get a chance to undo the claustrophobic corridors that came to define Penn Station when it was submerged in the 1960’s.

The redevelopment, Vornado’s chief executive has said, would boost rents on the five million square feet of office space that the company already owns in the area by making it a reputable destination for companies, as opposed to a holding ground for Irish bars and backpack stores. One of those buildings, 2 Penn Plaza, which sits on the east edge of Penn Station’s super-block, would either be razed or refaced under Plan B, according to sources.

All four of the architects that came up with designs have worked with the developers recently or are an obvious choice in some other way. David Childs is already designing the Moynihan Station renovation for the developers and has earned kudos for another project that he did for Related—the Time Warner Center at Columbus Circle. Mr. Pelli did Vornado’s Bloomberg Tower on Lexington Avenue. Kohn Pedersen designed the ill-fated West Side Stadium, which also would have been built on a platform above railroad tracks. (The same tracks run below Penn Station, in fact, though three blocks to the east.)

Mr. Foster, meanwhile, spent much of this year basking in praise for the Hearst Tower at Eighth Avenue and 57th Street. (Mr. Barwick called him “everybody’s favorite something or other.”) On the other hand, Mr. Foster just presented another of his designs, this one for a 30-story tower on the Upper East Side, and has learned that the public’s enthusiasm diminishes the closer he comes to their homes.

The owners of Madison Square Garden, the Dolan family, are reportedly working with Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects, a Canadian firm, to design the new arena, which would go in the western half of Farley, the Annex. (A Garden spokesman wouldn’t confirm the choice.) Moving the basketball arena is Plan B’s most controversial aspect, for two reasons. First, preservationists believe that the arena would burst the walls of the 1935 Annex and necessitate other physical changes, like flashy signage on the Eighth Avenue façade.

Second, the Dolans are also reportedly insisting that they get to keep their $10 million annual tax breaks, while Mayor Bloomberg says that the tax breaks are specific to the Eighth Avenue location.

The entire Penn Plaza project is expected to cost $7 billion, with $1 billion of that going toward a new Penn Station. Mr. Silver—the one who killed the smaller Moynihan plan—last month told The Observer that the developers should pay for “70, 80, 90 percent” of the new station’s cost, although people involved wonder if he’s really serious and say that the public will bear most of the burden instead.

Mr. Silver, a Democrat representing lower Manhattan, said that he rejected the Moynihan plan because he wanted to wait until Plan B came together. Others have speculated that he was either trying to curry favor with State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, who faced almost certain election as Governor, or was doing a favor for Madison Square Garden. (A former top aide to Mr. Silver is a lobbyist for the Dolans.) Governor Pataki, who contended that work could begin on Moynihan Station while the details of the larger deal were worked out, charged that Mr. Silver’s rejection was part of a “back-room deal to finance a new Madison Square Garden on the backs of taxpayers.” That is in part because the total bill for the public—now about $550 million—could triple in order to pay for the Penn Station renovation.

The whole project is several steps away from even getting approval, much less being completed. Not only does the property-tax issue for the Garden have to be worked out, but a new arrangement must be made with the U.S. Postal Service, which will no longer have any room to operate in Moynihan Station, as first planned. And the city, state and various transit agencies—New Jersey Transit, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and Amtrak—will have to give their nod. Plus, it could take several years just to secure the funding from federal or local governments to pay for the train-station portion.

[ablarc]

Plan B, as the larger plan has come to be known, is at once a dream for commuters, a nightmare for preservationists and the commission of a lifetime for the winning architect.
Huh?? Where's the nightmare?

Seems like great news all around!! (except for how long it's all going to take)

.

[TREPYE]

One of those buildings, 2 Penn Plaza, which sits on the east edge of Penn Station’s super-block, would either be razed or refaced under Plan B, according to sources.

Raze it! Don't even bother trying to salvage such as sorry design.

As for the rest of the development I am going to wait and see what these architects come up with.

[londonlawyer]

Now the fun begins...

Observer

Lord Foster, Others Propose Massive Plan to Supplant Garden

By Matthew Schuerman

http://www.observer.com/data/articleimages/photoimages/111306_article_schuerman1.jpg

...One of those buildings, 2 Penn Plaza, which sits on the east edge of Penn Station’s super-block, would either be razed or refaced under Plan B, according to sources....

Awesome! I hope that it's razed.

[lofter1]

Agreed ^^^

I'm no architect :cool: but razing the horrid wall of 2 PP seems like a no brainer ...

[pianoman11686]

Under Plan B, the Moynihan Station project would get done more or less as planned...

You don't say...

[ablarc]

Not really that many ways to skin a cat.

[macreator]

Not really that many ways to skin a cat.

Especially a fat, stumpy cat.

[antinimby]

Lord Norman Foster, Cesar Pelli, Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates and David Childs of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill presented models Out of these four, this is my order of preference:

1) Lord Norman Foster
2) Lord Norman Foster
3) Lord Norman Foster
4) Lord Norman Foster

So you see, it's actually a very easy decision. :)

[antinimby]

The whole project is several steps away from even getting approval, much less being completed. Not only does the property-tax issue for the Garden have to be worked out, but a new arrangement must be made with the U.S. Postal Service, which will no longer have any room to operate in Moynihan Station, as first planned. And the city, state and various transit agencies—New Jersey Transit, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and Amtrak—will have to give their nod. Plus, it could take several years just to secure the funding from federal or local governments to pay for the train-station portion.This project might just make the re-development of Ground Zero look like a walk in the park.
Why do I get the feeling that the Second Ave. subway (itself a bureaucratic nightmare) will be up and running long before this even gets going.

[NoyokA]

Hopefully Foster's proposal looks more like this:

http://www.aviewoncities.com/img/frankfurt/kvege0706s.jpg

than this:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7020/thebow2rp7wv0.jpg

Looking at Foster's monograph I think NYC would fare alright. I find it interesting that Foster's best works are reserved for Europe and England more specifically. America is in the middle. And Canada fares the worst, all his buildings for Canada are absolutely boring.

[Transic]

This project might just make the re-development of Ground Zero look like a walk in the park.
Why do I get the feeling that the Second Ave. subway (itself a bureaucratic nightmare) will be up and running long before this even gets going.

In other words, this has "Project of the Century" written all over it, correct?

(OK, I was exaggerating a bit ;) )

[sfenn1117]

Hopefully Foster, but I can deal with Pelli too. Some of Pelli's best work is in NYC. We don't need more KPF and SOM boxes.

[TREPYE]

Preference list:

1) Foster

2) Pelli

3) KPF

.........

1,897) SOM

[GVNY]

Trepye, you'd really place SOM that high on your list? How bizarre.

[ZippyTheChimp]

In my opinion, if this project goes forward, it will be on a fast-track.

It is as-of-right, there is no major residential neighborhood component involved, and lots of money to be made by all parties.

[TREPYE]

In my opinion, if this project goes forward, it will be on a fast-track.

It is as-of-right, there is no major residential neighborhood component involved, and lots of money to be made by all parties.

Yeah so was ground zero. And the area was already cleared up.

One big tripping point to this project is wether or not Bloomy will give MSG their tax cut. Your champion Silver will make sure he puts pressure on the major to not relinquish the tax break that MSG just sorely needs for their economic vitality. :rolleyes:

[ZippyTheChimp]

There is little comparison between the Penn Station complex and the WTC.

No memorial families.
No complicated lease arrangements.
Less public involvement.
No insurance court battles.
No 09/11 symbolic stuff.
The list goes on.

A $7 billion project is not going to be stopped by a $10 million tax break. I already see a problem arising over any signage on the 8th Ave side of the landmarked Post Office. Opportunity for a compromise.

I never stated or implied that Silver was a champion; my exact description was a typical politician. If you are upset about my comments further back, provide a decent counterpoint.

[TREPYE]

Look at all the ducks in a row. Let's see if they can hold the line. :)

First, the 2 1/2 year old Crain article:

West Side: Although there is plenty of evidence that this fiasco was a potential giveaway of city/state assets, let's call it a push.

BPC PILOTs: By charter, these funds are supposed to go toward low cost housing, not stadiums.

Moynihan: Silver opposed Gargano and his there is no Plan B Plan A, and favored exploring the nonexistent Plan B, which now we hear does exist.

South Ferry subway station: At the time the article was written, the MTA proposed the Second Ave Subway Lite, which would have terminated in Midtown. Silver withheld the MTA budget until they approved the present plan. The South Ferry station is under construction.

Beekman St: Bloomberg derailed the project when he denied funding for the school in the base. Silver got the funds restored. Excavation has begun.

WTC: 130 Liberty > LMDC > Pataki. Fiterman > State Dormitory > Pataki. WTC hole > PA > Pataki.

Yes. it was very, very bad of Silver to insist that Bloomberg pay more attention to the WTC, since Goldman Sachs was threatening to leave while Pataki was dreaming about the Iowa Caucus in 2008.

Silver put pressure on Bloomberg and Pataki to come to an agreement with Goldman Sachs. Pataki finally dropped the tunnel.

Silver supports Atlantic Yards.

The New York Post

One of the most powerful politicians in the state uses his influence to get his daughter a summer job at $600 a week. $4800. Wow.

The Post notes that the woman, who was 7 months pregnant when she got the job, stayed on the job...
Presumably? 7 + 2 = 9.

I am shocked that a public figure is seen in an owner's box at a sporting event. This is rare, no?

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/gallery/teapot.jpg



OK ducks...your turn to quack.

The tone of this post clearly shows that you took umbrage to the fact that some of us were utterly disgusted with Silvers blatant favoritism to MSG and the benefits that they provide him. Usually when you defend someone like this you hold them in some sort of high regard.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Oh please.

It was such a mild tweak. If that offended you, you should retire from the real world.

Besides, the duck motif is in vogue at the moment.

Funny, but I criticized the contents of the two articles; I couldn't criticize any of you because you didn't provide anything, just parroting one-liners. I guess I could have used a parrot, but ducks are in.

The only one to provide any counterpoint was BPC, and he agreed with my basic contention.

[TREPYE]

Quite a belligerent tone from a moderator considering that I never insulted you.

I never said I was offended by your ducks comment. All I was saying is that you curiously defended Silver in the face of some us criticizing him. You question the integrity of our opinions and elaborately laid out yours; which is fine I have no problem with that. Nonetheless, it Leads me to believe that you hold him in high regard since I believe you are one of his constituents (please correct me if am wrong). Perhaps you should retire you hypersensitivity and just chill out.

Can't parrots and chimps have civilized discussions anymore???

[kz1000ps]

Can't parrots and chimps have civilized discussions anymore???

And there is my laugh-out-loud moment of the day. Thanks!

[ZippyTheChimp]

Quite a belligerent tone from a moderator considering that I never insulted you.Belligerent. I seem to have missed that part.


The tone of this post clearly shows that you took umbrage to the fact that some of us were utterly disgusted with Silvers blatant favoritism to MSG and the benefits that they provide him. Usually when you defend someone like this you hold them in some sort of high regard.I only took umbrage at two things:
1.The articles, the contents of which I criticized.
2. lbjeffries' post, which was uncalled for.


All I was saying is that you curiously defended Silver in the face of some us criticizing him.Why was it so curious? The article was slanted.


You question the integrity of our opinions I joked about the repetitive one-liners. You offered no opinion worth criticizing. Wait, I'll do it now:

What a POS. :mad:Not a POS :)

You should not have traded in your sense of humor for the new Buick.


Nonetheless, it Leads me to believe that you hold him in high regardI said he was a typical politician.


Can't parrots and chimps have civilized discussions anymore???Did you send the Buick back? Good move.

[TREPYE]

^ Chimpy you're still throwing banana peels?? Whats up with that??

That comment about the Whitney museum was an obliviousness to sarcasm not a lack thereof sense of humor.

Well I think I should be able to react with one liners about a dubious politician without having to write a book about it. Fact is that It wasn't just the "slanted article" it was the combination of his actions that clearly benefit MSG.


Stadium will be a detriment the Garden he votes down the stadium.
Intiation of train terminal with including MSG relocation at the cost of 10 millions dollars per and he votes down and delays the terminal.
Advocating that MSG (a giant well-to-do corporation) get to keep their tax cut: from the NY ObserverSpeaker Silver on Moynihan: Deal by June ’07

By: Matthew Schuerman
Date: 10/30/2006
Two: The Garden will reportedly only move if it gets to take its property-tax exemption—valued at about $10 million a year—with it to a new location. That would be a city decision, and as recently as Oct. 19, Mayor Michael Bloomberg­—who battled Madison Square Garden’s owners over the failed West Side stadium last year—stood his ground, insisting on taking that tax break away if the arena should move.

Mr. Silver said he’d heard that the Mayor would be willing to relent, “even though he doesn’t like it.”

And if Mr. Bloomberg sticks to his guns and refuses to give in, Mr. Silver said, “then it will cost him a billion dollars to renovate Penn Station.”

copyright © 2006 the new york observer, llc


Not a POS :)

Silver- a democrat no less- is advocating that a giant corporation get to keep its tax cut??? And you wonder why some of us are disgusted with him?? A total POS typical politician.

We understand that you guys who justify Silver may benefit from his Downtown partisanship as you live in DT. The problem is that NYC extends far beyond DT and thus every project should not revolve around DT's best interest it should revolve around the interest of the city as a whole. DT is an integral part of NYC and I have no issue with his promotion of the projects downtown. This setup is horrendous, he has way too much power and he abuses the priveledge to serve his own best interest instead of the city as a whole. Disgraceful.

[ZippyTheChimp]

That comment about the Whitney museum was an obliviousness to sarcasm not a lack thereof sense of humor.
Sure it was.

I don't understand the point of the rest of your rehash:
Why should I care of the stadium is a detriment to the Garden. It was opposed by the majority of the city, so from their (an my) point of view, he did the correct thing. You are in the minority.

"He delays the terminal," yet you make no mention of the fact that Gargano lied about the existence of a second plan. Is he a POS? Is a better plan worth waiting 6 months? I think so.


And if Mr. Bloomberg sticks to his guns and refuses to give in, Mr. Silver said, “then it will cost him a billion dollars to renovate Penn Station.”Now this is the one I really don't understand. The money is paltry compared to the scope of the project. Compare it to what was handed to Goldman Sachs.

I don't know why you care about MSG/Dolan. Do you have Cablevision? Do you own their stock? The source of your rancor seems to be Dolan.The only problem I have with him is that he ruined the Knicks. He seems to be an unpleasant jerk, but that's no skin off my ass. I have Time Warner, so I can only get mad at a Road Runner.


We understand that you guys who justify Silver may benefit from his Downtown partisanship as you live in DT. The problem is that NYC extends far beyond DT and thus every project should not revolve around DT's best interest it should revolve around the interest of the city as a whole. DT is an integral part of NYC and I have no issue with his promotion of the projects downtown. This setup is horrendous, he has way too much power and he abuses the priveledge to serve his own best interest instead of the city as a whole. Disgraceful.
Well, that gets to the point.

Name me a few projects that he's stopped where there is consensus that they were beneficial to the city and majority supported.

Don't tell me the railyards. It was majority opposed and a ripoff.

Don't tell my Penn Station. The chairman of the EDC lied publicly; that alone is justification to delay.

Tell me something else.

[TREPYE]

Sure it was.

Thats right it was.


I don't understand the point of the rest of your rehash:
Why should I care of the stadium is a detriment to the Garden. It was opposed by the majority of the city, so from their (an my) point of view, he did the correct thing. You are in the minority.

I am a little removed from this occurrence can you provide a situation for this statement; that the majority is against it .


"He delays the terminal," yet you make no mention of the fact that Gargano lied about the existence of a second plan. Is he a POS? Is a better plan worth waiting 6 months? I think so.

New plan (whether better or not) still included Moiyahan renovation. Could have just started to get the ball rolling instead of waiting another 6 months.


Now this is the one I really don't understand. The money is paltry compared to the scope of the project. Compare it to what was handed to Goldman Sachs.

Corporate welfare is not something that I have an easy time relating to. MSG does not need the financial help. Why do they have to try to shake the city down for taxes?? Its was absolutely despicable that GS held the city hostage for their tax breaks and my position with MSG is the same.


I don't know why you care about MSG/Dolan. Do you have Cablevision? Do you own their stock?

Have Cablevision and I am happy with it. Don't own stock.


The source of your rancor seems to be Dolan.The only problem I have with him is that he ruined the Knicks.

Well I resoundingly agree with you on that. The worst thing that ever happened to my beloved Knicks. I cant even watch them anymore (don't get me started on this topic).


He seems to be an unpleasant jerk

Greedy POS who has the gall to ask for unmerited tax breaks.


Well, that gets to the point.

Name me a few projects that he's stopped where there is consensus that they were beneficial to the city and majority supported.

Don't tell me the railyards. It was majority opposed and a ripoff.

Don't tell my Penn Station. The chairman of the EDC lied publicly; that alone is justification to delay.

Tell me something else.

Therein lies our difference in opinion. I believe that both those project should have been approved. Agree to disagree, I guess.

[NYguy]

The governor-elect shares Silver's enthusiasm for getting this project done:

(amny)

Spitzer says he'll push for Moynihan Station

By Chuck Bennett
November 10, 2006

After a breakfast meeting with Mayor Michael Bloomberg Thursday, Governor-elect Eliot Spitzer said he'll do everything he can to move forward with Moynihan Station.

"It is a spectacular project," Spitzer said, confirming the two discussed Moynihan Station. "It will transform Penn Station, which is right now an unfortunate entry point for many tourists and commuters ... into something much more magnificent."

The $900 million project to convert the Farley Post Office behind Penn Station into a transit hub for New Jersey Transit and Amtrak, got derailed last month after Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver blocked funding for the project.

Silver said the plan should address the proposal to raze Madison Square Garden, construct a new arena in the rear of the Farley building, and construct a new, grander Penn Station.

"We are committed to getting it done," Spitzer said. "The opportunity to develop the space above the existing Garden, conceptually is a great thing to do."

Bloomberg declined to discuss specifics of the meeting.

"I'm not going to say anything," he said. "We had a very nice breakfast. Eliot, as you know, lives two or three buildings away from me. We've been friends for a long time, we vote in the same places."

[macreator]

"I'm not going to say anything," he said. "We had a very nice breakfast. Eliot, as you know, lives two or three buildings away from me. We've been friends for a long time, we vote in the same places."

Politicans have been using the phrase "as you know" a lot lately and it bugs the heck out of me. I do not know. How could I possibly know that you live a few buildings away from Spitzer.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Why should I care if the stadium is a detriment to the Garden. It was opposed by the majority of the city, so from their (and my) point of view, he did the correct thing. You are in the minority.


I am a little removed from this occurrence can you provide a situation for this statement; that the majority is against it . That would mean you are unfamiliar with the Javits Center/Jets Stadium thread,
in which case I don't see how you could have an informed opinion on whether Silver did the right thing. It is all in there, along with plenty of other stuff. I'm not going to go into it here, or dig it out for you.

You might also not be aware that the same tactic was used by the EDC at the railyards as at Penn Station - a phony deadline.

I'll stand by my opinion: By NY standards, this project will go on a fast track.

[pianoman11686]

Just when you thought there couldn't be any more things going on at this site...

New Penn Station Entrance Is Planned by N.J. Transit

By KAREEM FAHIM
Published: November 10, 2006

New Jersey Transit will build a new entrance to Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan, a project the agency said would help untangle its passengers from the great knot of people who descend daily into the busiest transit center in the country.

The new entrance, which will open onto 31st Street and Seventh Avenue, will serve the roughly 50,000 passengers on weekdays who use the concourse dedicated to trains traveling to and from New Jersey, said Dan Stessel, a spokesman for the transit agency.

The closest entrances to that concourse currently include a main entrance at 32nd Street at Seventh Avenue, near the entrance to Madison Square Garden, and an underground entrance that leads to the Long Island Rail Road concourse and the subways.

Escalators from the 32nd Street entrance empty out just a few yards from the New Jersey Transit concourse. But the street entrance, which collides with the entrance hall for Madison Square Garden and is served by two crosswalks across Seventh Avenue, is clogged with people during rush periods or when events are held at the Garden.

Some commuters said they would welcome anything that eased the traffic into the station during the evening rush.

“Between 4:30 and 6, it’s horrible,” said Kathy Nelson, a commuter to New Brunswick, N.J. “Masses of humanity coming in,” she said.

Construction on the new entrance, which officials said was always part of the concourse design, will begin in January. A vaulted tunnel of glass and exposed trusses will lead passengers directly from 31st Street into the marbled, earth-toned concourse with its wall inscriptions of Walt Whitman’s poetry. The project, which will cost almost $12 million, is scheduled to be completed in mid-2008, Mr. Stessel said.

The new entrance, designed to evoke the old Pennsylvania Station, will not interfere with future plans involving Moynihan Station, the stalled project to convert the city’s General Post Office into a stunning transit center across Eighth Avenue, Mr. Stessel said. New Jersey Transit, which plans to build a terminal in the future station, was to be the first tenant.

In October, the Pataki Administration said the $900 million project was “dead.”

In fact, the concourse and a new terminal in Moynihan Station are designed to work together, filling and emptying trains that are multilevel and up to 12 cars in length, Mr. Stessel said.

The transit agency has also announced plans to build a new station under 34th Street, to serve a proposed tunnel under the Hudson River, which would double the number of trains between New York and New Jersey.

Even with the announcement of the new entrance, passengers continued to bring up other pressing rail problems, including congestion in narrow stairwells leading to train platforms. Many passengers also complained of poor communication between transit staff members and passengers when there are delays or stalled trains.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

[TREPYE]

That would mean you are unfamiliar with the Javits Center/Jets Stadium thread,
in which case I don't see how you could have an informed opinion on whether Silver did the right thing. It is all in there, along with plenty of other stuff. I'm not going to go into it here, or dig it out for you.

You might also not be aware that the same tactic was used by the EDC at the railyards as at Penn Station - a phony deadline.

I'll stand by my opinion: By NY standards, this project will go on a fast track.

Unbelievable.

I said:



I am a little removed from this occurrence can you provide a situation for this statement; that the majority is against it .

I a was simply asking you something you have asked of me before and that is to provide citations to the statements you make: (I meant to spell "citation" not "situation" but the message was still basically the same as you showed in your post that you know what I meant)

My point was that you don't back up your assertions with any supporting information. Neither did you in this case and you cheaply use it as a basis to disregard my expertise on this development instead of just providing a source.

I am actually quite dismayed. I wouldn't have though that as an expereinced forumer and moderator you have turned out to do something so phony.

[lofter1]

2 minutes on google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=stadium+javits+%22public+opinion%22&btnG=Google+Search) would give you some answers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Stadium



Public opinion was mixed. Some citizens of New York, New Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey), and Connecticut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut) were in favor of the stadium because they wanted the 2012 Summer Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Summer_Olympics) to be held in New York City. In order to host the Olympics, cities typically must build modern stadiums and prove to the International Olympic Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Olympic_Committee) that they have the resources to support the event. But many Manhattan and West Side residents did not want the hassle, traffic congestion, and resource drain that the Olympics would inevitably bring to the already overcrowded city. The New York Daily News (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Daily_News) reported that 59% of New Yorkers were not in favor of holding the Olympics in New York at all. Many Jets fans wanted the stadium built, no matter what the cost, while some New York Giants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Giants) fans opposed the stadium solely because they disliked the rival Jets.

[Eugenious]

http://www.citylimits.org/assets/images/spacer.gif City Limits ONLINE
Posted: December 14, 2006

http://www.citylimits.org/assets/images/spacer.gif http://www.citylimits.org/assets/images/icons/icon4.gif MOYNIHAN STATION MAKES COMEBACK
ONTO POWERFUL BOARD'S AGENDA The train station and Atlantic Yards form a blockbuster docket for the PACB next week, City Limits has learned. > By Rachel Nielsen

Despite being widely considered dead after the state Public Authorities Control Board failed to approve it in October, the proposed $900 million Moynihan Station has popped onto the PACB agenda for the body’s Dec. 20 meeting.The upcoming gathering of the tiny yet powerful board already was drawing attention because political observers were expecting the PACB to vote on Atlantic Yards, the proposed $4 billion development in Brooklyn. That project, too, is now on the agenda.


And since the PACB never held its scheduled meeting for November, other items may be up for a vote Dec. 20 as well. The upshot could be a mega-agenda for the PACB's final meeting of the year, where the board votes on billions of dollars in funding and decides the fate of two of the most consequential city building projects in recent years.

Gov. George Pataki was pressing his support for Atlantic Yards, the 22-acre mixed-use development in Brooklyn, and Moynihan Station, the new train station in the Farley Post Office building across from Penn Station, with state legislators this week, according to news reports. But word of the agenda’s content provides the first indication that both projects could be decided by the PACB before Pataki's term ends Dec. 31.


The two large projects are up "for possible inclusion on the final agenda for the Dec. 20 meeting," according to Scott Reif, a spokesman for the state's Division of the Budget, which handles administration for the PACB. Reif said "there's no final agenda for" the meeting. But both projects are in fact on the Dec. 20 agenda as it now stands, according to a source close to the matter.


PACB action on the station would be a surprise to Friends of Moynihan Station, whose founder Maura Moynihan -- the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan's daughter -- has been promoting the project for years. Friends spokesman Jeremy Soffin said Thursday that he didn't expect any action until the new year when Gov.-elect Eliot Spitzer takes the helm.


The PACB has the final say on financing for many public projects in New York City and throughout the state. It’s controlled by Pataki, Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno and Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver; their representatives hold the board's three sole votes.


The board has been criticized by elected officials, including Moynihan Station and Atlantic Yards supporter Mayor Michael Bloomberg, for its non-deliberative, high-speed meetings at which millions or billions of dollars of funding are approved in minutes, and for its unanimous votes to approve resolutions, which are required by law. (See 'Public' Board Shapes City in Private Albany Huddles (http://www.citylimits.org/content/articles/viewarticle.cfm?article_id=2012), City Limits Weekly, Oct. 30, 2006.)
Defenders of the PACB say the board serves its function, which is to vet the financing for projects directed by public authorities.


Squeezing Moynihan Station and Atlantic Yards onto one agenda highlights what some consider a major lapse in accountability at the PACB: approving huge amounts of money with little or no discussion in public. At the October meeting, the PACB approved $4.52 billion in bonds, grants and loans in 12 minutes. The board also took just 12 minutes to discuss and vote down the Moynihan Station resolution.


The total funding tab for the Dec. 20 agenda is unclear, but in addition to the two major big-ticket proposals, "there could be an effort to get some of those [November] items onto the December agenda,” Reif said. In past months, typical PACB items up for approval have ranged from hundreds of thousands to billions of dollars.


Spokespeople for the PACB's voting members – Silver, Bruno's proxy to the board, and Pataki's proxy – did not return calls for comment.
- Rachel Nielsen

(karen@citylimits.org)


(karen@citylimits.org)

[Transic]

http://ny.metro.us/metro/local/article/Time_running_out_for_Moynihan_Station_Gargano_says/6326.html

Time running out for Moynihan Station, Gargano says

by patrick arden / metro new york
DEC 28, 2006

MIDTOWN — Two months after pronouncing the Moynihan Station project “dead,” outgoing Empire State Development Corporation Chairman Charles Gargano invited reporters to his office yesterday to discuss it.

The plan would convert the James A. Farley Post Office into a transit center next to Penn Station, but the state’s option to purchase that building will expire on Dec. 31.

“We’re negotiating with the Postal Service as we speak,” explained Gargano, whose final day on the job is tomorrow. “We want to be sure that we don’t lose the option on acquiring the building.”

If the U.S. Postal Service allowed the state’s option to expire, New York would lose more than $50 million.

The latest plan for Moynihan Station stalled in October, when the Public Authorities Control Board couldn’t reach consensus. Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver wanted the project to consider the redevelopment of Madison Square Garden as well as the needed overhaul of Penn Station. Though Silver later said he was willing to let the state pay for the $230 million acquisition of the post office, Gargano had said the entire project would have to go back to square one.

The failed $900 million plan was a “phase one” project, Gargano explained yesterday. It was meant to take pressure off of the overtaxed Penn Station, allowing for its renovation. He believed a larger plan would require the state to issue a new request for proposals.

Developers Vornado Realty Trust and Related Companies had agreed to pay more than $300 million upfront, $90 million of which would have closed the sale on the building. Gargano said the state would now have to come up with this cash. He also speculated that the price could rise before a new bargain is reached. Talks with the Postal Service would extend the option, “to give the new administration an opportunity to finalize the deal.”

Christine Anderson, a spokesperson for Gov.-elect Eliot Spitzer, said, “Eliot remains supportive of the Moynihan Station and the move for an extension.”

[lofter1]

Report: Extension Granted For Moynihan Station Project

ny1.com (http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=65520)
December 30, 2006

The plan to turn the James A. Farley Post Office into a rail station reportedly has new life, as an extension was granted to find money to purchase the building.

According to the Daily News, the outgoing Pataki administration negotiated a deal with the federal government that will give the state three more months to come up with the money to purchase the building.

Their $230 million offer was originally set to expire tomorrow.

The plan was derailed in October when Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver refused to back the project.

If completed, the $900 million Moynihan Station will take pressure off an overcrowded Pennsylvania Station, which is across the street.

Copyright © 2006 NY1 News.

[lbjefferies]

http://ny.metro.us/metro/local/article/Time_running_out_for_Moynihan_Station_Gargano_says/6326.html

If the U.S. Postal Service allowed the state’s option to expire, New York would lose more than $50 million.



Good to see Shelly Silver is looking out for us. Whadda Mensch!

Right Zippy?

[NYguy]

The plan to turn the James A. Farley Post Office into a rail station reportedly has new life, as an extension was granted to find money to purchase the building.

According to the Daily News, the outgoing Pataki administration negotiated a deal with the federal government that will give the state three more months to come up with the money to purchase the building.

Their $230 million offer was originally set to expire tomorrow.

It was the least the Pataki administration could do, considering he threatened to sabotage the project completely. Obviously the new administration will go ahead with the purchase, as it moves forward with plans for Moynihan east and west.....


(NY Sun)
http://www.nysun.com/article/45838?page_no=1

Moves Afoot To Revive Plans To Build Moynihan Station Transit Hub

By DAVID LOMBINO
December 28, 2006

Governor-elect Spitzer's appointee to replace Mr. Gargano as chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation, Patrick Foye, a lawyer, is a Long Island resident who commutes through Penn Station. In a telephone interview early yesterday, Mr. Foye said the new administration is committed to the redevelopment of the Penn Station area, including plans for "Moynihan East and West," a reference to redeveloping the Farley building and renovating the existing Penn Station on the east side of Eighth Avenue.

Mr. Foye said the transition team recently convened a meeting with the transportation agencies that would participate in a Penn Station renovation, including the MTA, Amtrak, and New Jersey Transit.

"We are very focused on economic development in the area but also on the enhancement of transportation infrastructure at Penn station," Mr. Foye said. "The goal of the transportation task force is to speak as one voice."

[antinimby]

Option to Buy Farley Post Office Expires

January 8, 2007 (http://therealestate.observer.com/2007/01/option-to-buy-farley-post-office-expires.html) 1:28 PM

The Pataki administration failed to hold onto the Farley Post Office in the last moments of 2006, but negotiations are continuing, this time under Governor Spitzer's purview. In late December, Charles Gargano, then-chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation, announced a last-minute blitz to renew the option that the state had to buy the building as part of its Moynihan Station conversion.

Robert Anderson, a spokesman for the United States Postal Service, said no agreement had been reached by the Dec. 31 expiration date, but that there were no plans to try to sell the building to anyone else.

- Matthew Schuerman

copyright © 2006 the new york observer, L.P.

[Derek2k3]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/351419937_ff9f266c37_o.jpg
Anyone know why they removed those spires on top of The Olivia (The Pennmark)? When lit at night, they were the only thing the building had going for it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/351419939_4fb0a379be_o.jpg
Imagine this view in...um 45 years.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/351419941_5bf5af3080_o.jpg
The photography store building north of the station looks awful.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/351419944_f8d119cc74_o.jpg
That shack gots to go. Or maybe it's a mock-up of the new MSG...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/141/351419947_fa7f482364_o.jpg
Notice the missing ornaments.

[kz1000ps]

Good question concerning the Pennmark, Derek. Before I read your caption, I was staring at it, thinking, "I never remember noticing the mechanical junk on the roof before." Could you tell if it was missing the spires on the north side also?

[Derek2k3]

Yea, they're all gone. Maybe it's the cheap new owner of the building, Stonehenge Partners. Read more here. (http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate/NY-New-York-The-Olivia-formerly-PennMark-565723.html)
I posted some more pics in the Pennmark thread. (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140008#post140008)


Another of the post office.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/351810493_7ac3d6bbba_o.jpg

[NYguy]

Anyone know why they removed those spires on top of The Olivia (The Pennmark)? When lit at night, they were the only thing the building had going for it.

They shouldn't have stopped with the spires. That whole building is a waste of a prime location near Penn Station, (although it has the only multi-screen theater in that area)...

[NYguy]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/351810493_7ac3d6bbba_o.jpg

Perhaps in 5 years, three of those buildings will be gone...

[lofter1]

The 24-story pink + brown one on the west side of 8th between 33rd / 34th (aka 5 Penn Plaza (http://www.5pennplaza.com/) ) could happily come down as well ...

http://www.5pennplaza.com/images/5PP_bldg.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/351419937_ff9f266c37_o.jpg

[NYguy]

The 24-story pink + brown one on the west side of 8th between 33rd / 34th (aka 5 Penn Plaza (http://www.5pennplaza.com/) ) could happily come down as well ...

http://www.5pennplaza.com/images/5PP_bldg.jpg


And that one is also lit up at night I believe. The nerve.

[NYguy]

Observer

Spitzer Aide as Transit Savior:
Arise Again, Moynihan Station!

By Matthew Schuerman

http://www.observer.com/data/articleimages/photoimages/021207_article_schuerman.jpg

‘I thought they got a little too cute,’ says former ESDC chairman Charles Gargano of the would-be Moynihan Station builders, Vornado and Related.



On Election Day last November, Vishaan Chakrabarti, the name and face of the private developers that are planning to overhaul Pennsylvania Station and the area around it, called up Patrick Foye, an aide to Governor-to-be Eliot Spitzer, and asked him to have a meeting. The conversation went something like this:

Mr. Foye: “How about tomorrow at 8 a.m.?”

Mr. Chakrabarti: “Won’t you have a hangover?”

Mr. Foye: “It doesn’t matter. This is important.”

And so, just a matter of hours after Mr. Spitzer won, Mr. Foye—not even announced as chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation—began to chart the course of an entirely new office district with a double-headed train station. Since then, Mr. Foye and others who work for him have been moving forward quickly to get Moynihan Station back on track after its demise in the final months of the Pataki administration, expanding the scope of any project to include the so-called Plan B, which would involve a new Penn Station as well.

Mr. Foye, according to sources both inside and outside the Spitzer administration, has organized a working group of representatives of the train lines that use the station—Amtrak, New Jersey Transit and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority—which has been meeting weekly with the developers, Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies, to understand the logistics of a new design.

He has also, according to these sources, come to believe that the private developers need to share some of the approximately $1 billion cost of ripping Penn Station open to the sky and of earning undying fealty from the 550,000 daily commuters who currently snake around the subterranean tunnels that some have come to call “the pit.”

THESE EFFORTS HAVE BEGUN TO PAY OFF.

On Feb. 2, the ESDC signed a memorandum of understanding that extends the state’s option to purchase the Farley Building from the U.S. Postal Service, according to Postal Service spokesman Bob Anderson.

Former Governor Pataki’s chief economic-development czar, Charles Gargano, had been trying to do the same—the purchase price was set at $230 million—but was unable to do so before he left office on Dec. 31.

However, the option only lasts until the end of March, which suggests that Mr. Foye plans a quick purchase or will have to renegotiate yet another extension. An ESDC spokesman wouldn’t elaborate.

In addition, Mr. Foye, who got to know Mr. Spitzer and his wife, Silda Wall, while all three were lawyers at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, has made the Moynihan pitch as part of his meetings with elected officials and civic groups.

“We are taking a fresh look at each of the projects from the Pataki administration, and we are looking at them on an expeditious but deliberative basis,” Mr. Foye told The Observer.

Mr. Foye and the developers declined to be more specific about any talks. But the interest Mr. Foye has shown in reviving and expanding the Moynihan Station plan has made some observers convinced that he has put it at the top of the new Governor’s economic-development agenda.

But in doing so, this genial, bearded Long Islander is diving headlong into a pit of a different kind: Steven Roth, the chairman of Vornado, which already owns a number of buildings near Penn Station and a portion of its air rights, is known as a relentless negotiator. Jim Dolan, the chairman of Madison Square Garden, is known as a capricious one.

The $865 million Moynihan Station plan—according to which the front part of the Farley Post Office on Eighth Avenue would be turned into a train hall and stairs would be sunk below to meet the same train tracks that run below Penn Station—died in October when State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver blocked it.

The current talks are focused on much broader plans, first floated by Vornado and Related more than a year ago, in which Madison Square Garden would move to the west end of Farley; the Pennsylvania Station would be redone; and that superblock, between Seventh and Eighth avenues and 31st and 33rd streets, would turn into what the developers like to call a new Rockefeller Center—two to four state-of-the-art office towers containing about five million square feet of office space.

The inability to get Moynihan Station started before the end of his tenure was perhaps Mr. Gar*gano’s greatest defeat in his 12-year reign as ESDC chairman, all the more poignant because he was there when the state first took over the project in 1995 and shepherded it through several different *iterations as market conditions and Amtrak’s financial troubles changed its scope and function. Suddenly, in the last year, the developers’ ambitious plans to move Madison Square Garden remade the project yet again into something bigger than Mr. Gargano could control.

In an interview with The Observer, Mr. Gargano said the developers subverted the approval process for Moynihan Station by drumming up support for Plan B among city officials and business and civic groups.

“I thought they got a little too cute. They went a little too far trying to lobby everyone,” said Mr. Gargano, who is now advising his former boss on a possible run for the Presidency. “They recognized, especially Steve Roth of Vornado, what it would do in terms of value if they were able to move the Garden and have the air rights, that it would give them one to two billion dollars in profits, and, therefore, it was a multimillion-dollar deal for them. That was their motivation.”

While Plan B first circulated publicly in spring 2006, its origins go back further, when, according to a source familiar with the original Vornado and Related bid, the developers mentioned the Garden swap and Penn Station overhaul as an alternative to their main proposal. That alternative went largely unnoticed inside and outside the ESDC for at least a year. The state publicized the winning bid as one that would have devoted the western end of Farley to vaguely defined big-box retail.

By March 2006, the Related Companies had engaged a Washington, D.C., lobbying firm, Dutko Worldwide, to discuss the project with federal agencies, including the Department of Transportation, which could fund at least a portion of the cost of the Penn Station overhaul. A real-estate industry source said, however, that the developers’ lobbying activities wouldn’t impact financing for the city’s other transportation projects, such as the Second Avenue Subway. The lobbyists, according to the source, are targeting agencies including the Federal Railroad Administration, which oversees funding for Amtrak and the nation’s railroads, rather than mass transit.

EVEN WHILE THE DRAMA OVER the Moynihan Station approval was unfolding last fall, the developers were explaining the larger Plan B to members of the Spitzer camp, according to sources.

Since then, the Penn Station project has become a regular feature of Mr. Foye’s presentations to a wide variety of supporters and public officials.

One of his earliest meetings took place in late November or early December with Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, and the *chairman of the nonprofit organization’s public-policy committee, John J. Kerr Jr. The conservancy is one of two prominent groups that object to plans by the devel*opers to turn the elegant neoclassical foyer of the post office into a ticket-selling area for the Knicks and Rangers.

“[Mr.] Foye said that he was listening to everyone and it was too early to say one thing or another, but he was very gracious about meeting with us early,” Ms. Breen told The Observer. “We think that this can be a great opportunity. It’s clearly great for economic development—the developers are going to do well, the Garden will do well, the improvements to Penn Station are a good thing. But everything started with the notion of a great train station at Farley, and we wanted to make sure that that wasn’t lost; and we wanted to make sure that there really was a separate great train station, and that it wasn’t just a forecourt to the Garden.”

Kent Barwick, the president of the Municipal Art Society, another prominent group anxious about the Garden swap, said that Mr. Foye needs to be a vigorous negotiator on behalf of the public.

“The Empire State Development Corporation has extraordinary powers. What we saw in the last few years was the state using those powers to achieve what the private developers wanted to do, without appropriate consideration for the public good,” said Mr. Barwick, who is planning to meet with Mr. Foye in the coming week or two. “You need a person—it could be a nicer Bob Moses, or an Eliot Spitzer who can read plans—someone who has the ability to push back when it is required.”

Last month, Mr. Foye spent two hours talking about the project to the Friends of Moynihan Station, an advocacy group affiliated with the Regional Plan Association, a nonprofit planning group.

“He was very nuts-and-bolts. He laid out this and this and this—all the things that needed to get done to make this thing happen,” said Maura Moynihan, the daughter of the late Senator after whom the renovated Farley Post Office will be named. (She told The Observer the story about the post-Election Day meeting.) “He is this wonderful Irish gentleman from Long Island who must suffer the indignities of the pit on a daily basis coming in on the Long Island Rail Road. Everybody is stunned and amazed by the energy that the Spitzer team is bringing to this project.”

[tmg]

Great news. Two cheers for clean, energetic government!

(I'm saving my third cheer for when it is announced that this project will indeed preserve the retail post office)

[finnman69]

But if someone comes up with a truly awe inspiring plan that creates a new modern building with the stunning power of the old Penn Station, and it integrates Amtrak, LIRR and NJ Transit, I'll get out there with a hammer and chisel myself.

I still say, tear down the post office, move MSG and build new office towers on that site, then tear down MSg and the hideous office tower on top, rebuild the old Penn Station with its glorious interiors on the original site as it was for the most part. It could even have some super modern addition on top like the Hearst tower.

[MidtownGuy]

Hammer and chisel? To tear down the Post Office building would be lunacy no matter what would replace it. I don't think that's actually been suggested by anyone.

[ManhattanKnight]

While it's too late to rescue the WTC from the evil that Pataki wrought, there's still time to build this one right. All that's needed are imagination, courage, civic-mindedness, arm-twisting and creative use of eminent domain. Clear the site by razing MSG and 2PP. Re-erect the closest-possible facsimile of the original Penn Station. Properly configured and with the addition of the new capacity planned beneath Macy's, it could handle the demands of all three railroads. Putting a railroad station anywhere other than between 7th and 8th Aves (and the subways beneath them) makes little sense. Move new office and residential construction and MSG to nearby blocks that actually need redevelopment. Do something good with Farley, and if something must be sacrificed, let it be the Farley annex. I think a hotel could work back there.

[NYguy]

Chelsea Now
Volume One, Issue 18, February 2 - 8, 2007


Two visions proffered for single regional rail plan

By Chris Lombardi

http://chelseanow.com/cn_19/level.gif


George Haikalis, a member of Com-munity Board 5’s Transportation Com-mittee, gave a shy smile under his white beard as he looked across the room on Wednesday night. “We are at a unique moment,” he said quietly. “We have two new governors who can join hands to make this a priority.”

Haikalis, a committee member and veteran of the Tri-State Regional Planning Commission, wasn’t talking about the World Trade Center site. He was talking about changing the way tens of thousands of people enter New York City every day.

According to New Jersey Transit, some 70,000 people stream across the Hudson River from New Jersey daily on New Jersey Transit and Amtrak, emerging just north of Chelsea. More than 40,000 of them jam Penn Station during rush hour, before hustling to their offices elsewhere in Manhattan. And the jam is only bound to increase. By 2020, New York City is slated to grow to 9 million people, while by 2030, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, New Jersey’s 2000 population of more than 8 million is projected to increase by 16 percent, to nearly 1.4 billion. (?)

Transit agencies and advocates in both states agree that a new tunnel with extra train tracks is necessary to handle the projected passenger-load increase, and this week New Jersey Transit announced progress on its new Trans-Hudson Extension Tunnel, conceived in 2003, which will add two tracks to transport twice as many trains into New York City every day. The plan also includes a second mini-Penn Station on 34th St., under Macy’s, to accommodate the extra passengers.

But transit advocates like Haikalis, backed up by the Lackwanna Coalition, which represents New Jersey commuters, were at C.B. 5 this week questioning the Penn Station mini-terminal and urging a solution known as “regional rail.” Their proposal would create an interconnected rail network among the four railway systems that now serve the tri-state area and Manhattan’s two train terminals. Advocates claim that such a broadly conceived system could alleviate auto-traffic congestion and increase convenience, while stimulating the economy and fostering more sensible development.

For at least five years, transit agencies have been working on ways to increase rail capacity across the Hudson River — a project they call Access to the Region’s Core. The Federal Transportation Administration, which administers federal mass-transit funds, recently green-lighted the release of an environmental impact statement on the Trans-Hudson Extension Tunnel and permitted New Jersey Transit to start the design process.

The project is “going forward at a rapid pace,” according to New Jersey Transit spokesman Dan Stessel, with an “unprecedented level of support” from elected officials. “Governor Corzine says he’s determined to get shovels in the water” as soon as possible, added Stessel, who said that federal funds could then cover as much as half of the estimated $5–7 billion cost.

But Haikalis and local engineer Joe Clifton, a fellow board member of the Regional Rail Working Group, offered C.B. 5’s Transportation Committee a different vision — one that had already been outlined by NJ Transit itself, which considered tunneling east of Penn Station and Macy’s and sending a third of its trains directly to Grand Central Station, where 40 percent of passengers are currently headed.

Clifton, a lanky engineer with an untended mustache, spoke on behalf of that concept, as well as the group’s “regional rail “ approach.

“East Side Access” (ESA), as they call it, would eliminate both New Jersey Transit’s planned new terminal and the Long Island Rail Road’s current plans for a similar terminal at Grand Central Station, instead making better use of existing tracks,” he said, adding that tracks and terminal space would be freed up by letting the more than 12,000 passengers going to the East Side (40 percent of the total) avoid Penn Station entirely.

The result would cost less, increase capacity and “and get people where they actually want to go,” said Clifton. He set the cost of the East-West tunnel at $6.2 billion, versus approximately $21 billion for both the Penn Station and Grand Central mini-terminals.

After Clifton’s presentation, some committee members were unimpressed. Committee chair John Mills said, “Penn Station certainly doesn’t seem under-utilized to me…it’s always packed.”

Clifton smiled. “What if half the LIRR passengers disappeared?” he countered. “Remember, they’re gone, with [the] East Side Access [plan]. They’re on their way to Grand Central.”

Despite the board’s skepticism, the advocates said the strongest barrier to the activists’ vision will be getting three transit organizations to agree to coordinate. But now that all three agencies have new directors, “a push from the top” — like Corzine or Spitzer — would get more response.

Chelsea residents will have a chance to compare the two visions in the next few months. An exhibit sponsored by the Durst Organization called “Making the Connection: Moving Forward on Regional Rail” opens Feb. 8 at the Condé Nast Building at 4 Times Square.

Meanwhile, a public hearing is scheduled for March 27 at F.I.T. on the New Jersey Transit proposal’s draft environmental impact statement.

New Jersey Transit spokesman Stessel, who called its terminal “essential,” sounded weary of the advocates.

“Respectfully…they need to get over it.”

[ablarc]

^ Sounds like the right solution to me. It will gather steam as time goes by, basically because it's the right thing to do. Entrenched interests will oppose it. Interesting to see who'll win.

London and Paris (RER} have both done this and it's been a big improvement over the preceding terminus-to-subway model.

[ZippyTheChimp]

What's ignored is the planned commercial development at the Penn Station site and the eastern railyards.

A decade from now, will 40% of NJ Transit riders still want to go to Grand Central?

[ablarc]

What's ignored is the planned commercial development at the Penn Station site and the eastern railyards.

A decade from now, will 40% of NJ Transit riders still want to go to Grand Central?
Maybe not, but perhaps 40% of Long Islanders will actually want to go to Penn Station at last.

[Dynamicdezzy]

^ I agree. I say there SHOULD be a link between these 2 major stations, by having some of these NJ transit trains going to Grand Central as well. But as Zippy said, with all the amount of potential development in the area, expansion will still be necessary. Aren't they reinstating some of these abandoned lines in Jersey? I wonder how all 3 agencies are going to collaborate?

[ablarc]

I wonder how all 3 agencies are going to collaborate?
Bundle them into one.

Perhaps by combining them with the Port Authority.

[Dynamicdezzy]

Now that you mention port authority and the Path train comes to mind; By having Moynihan, Penn, and the new mini terminal under macy's, will the nearby B,D,F,V,N,Q,R,W & path trains be incorporated into this plan as well? (a midtown fulton hub)

[JCMAN320]

Yes as a part of the project, from my understanding, the PATH and Penn Stattion willbe re-linked. You use to be able to walk to Penn Station from 33rd St. through a long underground tunnel, but they closed it decades ago for "safety" reasons.

[lofter1]

Photo by Berenice Abbott of the old Greyhound Bus Terminal (NYPL (http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/spe/art/photo/abbottex/cny0923.html)) on the site where One Penn Plaza now stands ...

http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/spe/art/photo/abbottex/cny0785.jpg

Greyhound Bus Terminal
33rd and 34th Streets between Seventh and Eighth Avenues.
July 14, 1936.
ID: 482565

[Fahzee]

wow - I've never seen Penn from that angle before. Great find

[londonlawyer]

My dream is to see Vornado recreate the colonnade of classical columns on 7th Avenue and to have its tower rising from a base above them. That would be awesome. (I should state that that's one of my dreams....)

[ablarc]

I really think rebuilding Penn with the original interiors, and with some kind of tower on top would be a win win.
The more we talk this up the more likely it will become, because it's do-able and it makes sense.

Now's the time to get the idea out there where the important people operate. How do we do that?

[MidtownGuy]

Would all that marble and stonework still be possible? Oh, how I wish....

[ZippyTheChimp]

I bet they could rebuild the old Penn Station for a fraction of what they are spending on the Freedom Tower.While this is a grand idea, I seriously doubt you could build an 8 acre granite building for a fraction of $3 billion.

Unless we are considering 8/5 and 11/5 as fractions.

[ablarc]

Would all that marble and stonework still be possible? Oh, how I wish....
Oh my, MidtownGuy, you're the perfect appreciator of McKim's artifice: those "stone" vaults were suspended plaster, thin as eggshells; and there's more marble these days in most office building lobbies. The big columns out on the street, however, were solid granite. They're said to languish in a Jersey swamp.

Possible? You bet.

[MidtownGuy]

Wow, I didn't know! Looks so solid.
What an exciting idea this is!

[czsz]

The political will to do similar reconstructions isn't lacking in Europe, even in bankrupt countries or cities with little to spare. Look at the reconstruction of the Berliner Schloss, for example...

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/start.php?navID=60

...the website includes a section on other recent reconstructions:

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/start.php?navID=99&typ=main

The Schloss seems to be financing its reconstruction through the individual donation of bricks. Surely New York has individuals wealthy enough to contribute whole walls and sections. A "Trump arch" would be a small price to pay...

[Adyton]

I think a group of folks here on the forum should meet and devise a plan to present "Rebuild the old Penn Station" to the following key players:

1.) Vishann Chakrabarti - public spokesman for Vornado/Related (the Developers)
2.) Patick Foye - new Spitzer appointed Chairman of the ESDC (Empire State Development Corporation)
3.) dbox (www.dbox.com (http://www.dbox.com))

The plan would include a "pro bono" 3-D animation from dbox (www.dbox.com (http://www.dbox.com)), (the same folks who did 3-D animations for the u/c Bank of America, the new WTC site, the new WTC path station) of the interior and exterior of the Penn based on the old blue printouts and photos.

The plan would show how using modern light-weight precast concrete & fiberglass/composite materials would be used to create the ornate & grand appearances internally & externally, save on construction costs and meet LEED building standards. Similar design & construction techniques were used to build the the Bellagio, Ceasar's Palace, the Paris & Venetian hotels in Vegas. The Venetian is truly spectacular with its ornate marble, granite and sculpted interiors & exteriors and the facades are very light weight, durable & beautifully crafted.

Lastly, the plan should include a .org website where people can email or call a toll free number to where they can apply/volunteer for work (as artisans/craftsmen) and report/identify ALL MISSING RELICS, PIECES FROM THE ORIGINAL STATION i.e., missing columns, friezes, ornamentation. From past postings here and on www.skyscraperpage.com (http://www.skyscraperpage.com), I believe that much of the station (columns, friezes, ornamentation) may be in a NJ swamp and/or a dumpsite and on other buildings in Philadelphia and other cities. This RETRIEVAL PROCESS should be a part of Vornado's/Related's redevelopment plan. It would be a part of the HEALING PROCESS to restore what was truly lost and incorporate as much of the old with the new....

[antinimby]

Rebuilding Penn Station in WHOLE, exactly like it was before, is not possible because the plan is to have several towers on that site in addition to a new Penn Station.

Now if you want to have certain elements from the original, then that is workable and the best one can hope for.

[Adyton]

True... I agree... but you can incorporate as much of the old style and specific elements from the original i.e., the huge columns, the grand plaster hall, the ornamental iron archways, RETRIEVED PIECES FROM THE ORIGINAL into the new design... ALL built according to modern day LEED standards and using Vegas style construction techniques for ornamental neoclassical or baraque styles... VERY doable.

The point is: NOT to short-cut on remaking the new Penn Station AS STUNNING and MOMUMENTAL as the original or as well-done as its cross town cousin... the Grand Central terminal.

[kliq6]

My dream is to see Vornado recreate the colonnade of classical columns on 7th Avenue and to have its tower rising from a base above them. That would be awesome. (I should state that that's one of my dreams....)

Dream is all it will be sadly. What a beatiful building we killed

[finnman69]

While this is a grand idea, I seriously doubt you could build an 8 acre granite building for a fraction of $3 billion.

Unless we are considering 8/5 and 11/5 as fractions.

But until someone did a construction estimate to prove me wrong I'll stick to my guns. A lot of Penn Station was merely open space, open courts, high vaulted spaces. Yes it covered a lot of area, but was mostly open space. the main train shed is basically a large skylight over simple steel trusses. It's not going up 2000 feet.

The major costs would be if you added another tower on top of a new Penn Station, and building a new MSG on the farley site. Integrating all of the train lines, subway connector tunnels would not be cheap either, BUT it would be money well spent.

[finnman69]

Wow, I didn't know! Looks so solid.
What an exciting idea this is!
The ceiling vaults were repetitive cast plaster forms.

the interior colums were stone clad around steel columns
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&c2coff=1&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=+penn+station+demolition&spell=1
http://pdnedu.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/penn2_full.jpg

[lofter1]

I think a group of folks here on the forum should meet and devise a plan to present "Rebuild the old Penn Station" ...


Welcome aboard, Adyton.

I say go for it.

Gather some people in the architecture / design / construction fields and get this moving.

You've obviously got the passion -- don't let the naysayers stop you on this. It's too important not to act on.

[ZippyTheChimp]

But until someone did a construction estimate to prove me wrong I'll stick to my guns. A lot of Penn Station was merely open space, open courts, high vaulted spaces. Yes it covered a lot of area, but was mostly open space.Whatever is now planned is estimated to cost $1 billion - also mostly open space, but a fraction of the total area.

It's a working RR station, busiest in the country.

[ManhattanKnight]

A lot of Penn Station was merely open space, open courts, high vaulted spaces. Yes it covered a lot of area, but was mostly open space. the main train shed is basically a large skylight over simple steel trusses.

I tried unsuccessfully today to find the NY Times article from the early sixties quoting a Penna RR red cap to the effect that the old station was mostly empty, wasted space. Most of what was demolished was the above-ground portion of the station. Big parts of the subterranean floors, stairs and, I'll bet, foundations are still there (awaiting creative reuse).

[Adyton]

Thanks Lofter1...

Ironically, I used to work as a project engineer/EE for DMJM+Harris in Denver, the same engineering consulting firm currently working w/ARUP on the new Calatrava WTC path station.

IF... IF I were in NYC, I would be happy to take the lead in starting/gathering a group, contacting key people and starting the process. In Denver, we are also in the midst of starting the redevelopment and renovation of Union Station where the team of East-West Partners, Continuum & DMJM+Harris have won the competition.

But Penn Station is MUCH more interesting and exciting with GRANDER possibilities ... Oh, I'd love to sink my teeth into this project.

So, for all you New Yorkers who are interested/passionate about this project... go to the www.idealist.org (http://www.idealist.org) and to the following link:

http://www.idealist.org/if/idealist/en/SiteIndex/AssetBrowser/1.3.8.1-default?assetTags=MEETING_TYPE&assetTypes=Event&browse-path=continent%3Acountry%3Astate%3AmetroArea&continent=NORTH_AMERICA&country=United%20States&fetchLimit=30&languageDesignations=en&onlyFetchApproved=1&onlyFetchAssetProperties=1&should-ignore-language-designation=1&sid=84332956-219-kKW&sortOrderings=modificationDate&state=New%20York&validStatusTypes=APPROVED

From the above 20 meeting ads in NYC, you can start your own "Rebuild a NEW version of Penn Station" forum where you all can meet and develop a plan of action. Keep me informed... who knows I may join the "CAUSE" ! :D

[ablarc]

We've got something going here. Important not to lose momentum. I'm going to compose emails to Chakrabarti and Foye.

[BigMac]

That would be something if WNY helped make the difference.

[Adyton]

Hi Ablarc:

Here's the contact link and information in contacting Patrick Foye at Empire State Development the "Build Now NY" program:

http://www.gorr.state.ny.us/BNNY-ContactESD.html (http://www.gorr.state.ny.us/BNNY-ContactESD.html)

Patrick Foye, Chairman of ESD
Switchboard: 518-292-5200 (Albany - general number)
e: pfoye@empire.state.ny.us (pfoye@empire.state.ny.us)


Here's the contact information and links for Vishaan Chakrabarti & Stephen Ross at Vornado:

Vornado Realty Trust
888 7th Ave
New York, NY 10019
(212) 894-7000
www.vno.com (http://www.vno.com)
e: vchakrabarti@vno.com (?, verify w/receptionist)

Good luck!

[Adyton]

Stringer Promises Progress On Moynihan Station Project

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/images/live/112/222674.jpg

Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer delivered his first State of the Borough address Monday, and like previous borough presidents, he made transportation a key element of the speech. Manhattan Reporter Rebecca Spitz filed the following story.

He hadn't said anything yet, but the Manhattan borough president got a standing ovation from a capacity crowd in City Hall Monday.

It was Scott Stringer's inaugural State of the Borough address and, as he did with his rookie term, he hit the ground running.

Project number one on Stringer's list of goals for 2007 is getting some movement going on the stalled Moynihan Station Project to expand Penn Station.

"A new Moynihan train station will diminish crowding, improve the look and feel of the area, and help lay the foundation for the comprehensive transportation planning our region desperately needs," said Stringer.

Stringer's agenda was wide-ranging, hitting on issues from transportation to affordable housing to the environment.

He wasn't shy about taking on contentious matters in the borough, like the proposal to give private schools exclusive access to ball fields on Randall’s Island in exchange the money to rehabilitate them.

"We haven't yet reached the right compromise over the ball fields,” said Stringer. “Because a raw deal is no deal at all and privatizing the use of public land is a raw deal."

Manhattan residents and politicians reacted positively to Stringer's speech, not only to its substance but to the way in which the borough president is soliciting and listening to community input.

"One of the aspects I really like is the community involvement, the community having a voice and a seat at the table with regard to all the decision making that's occurring,” said City Councilmember Melissa Mark-Viverito. “That it's not about us and it's not happening at us, it's happening with us."

And residents applauded Stringer's efforts to fill vacancies on Community Boards, making appointments he says are based on qualifications instead of political connections:

"It’s grassroots community activism at its purest form and through Borough President Stringer's revitalization of the community boards, it's made a tremendous difference to the borough,” said Community Board 1 Chair Julie Menin.

Moments after delivering his first State of the Borough address, Stringer said he was ready to get started again:

"We've got a lot of work to do in the second year of our administration," he said.

– Rebecca Spitz

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index...id=8&aid=66762 (http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=8&aid=66762)

[kliq6]

That guys has as much power to move this thing along as Pat Moynihan himself. Boro presidents have no sayin anything, all they do is hold news conferences, especially this clown

[Bob]

Count me in. I'd like to help, if I can.

[NYguy]

Metro

Moynihan Station back on track?

by amy zimmer / metro new york
FEB 16, 2007

The Spitzer administration is taking another look at turning the James A. Farley Post Office into the new Moynihan Station transit hub.

This time the state will also review Madison Square Garden’s possible relocation from Penn Station a block west to the post office’s annex, a move that would open up Penn Station for a renovation with new office towers.

The Empire State Development Corporation, the state agency overseeing the project, approved $500,000 yesterday to conduct a new environmental impact study, according to spokesman A.J Carter.

When the Moynihan project was initially approved by the ESDC last year, the state only examined the impact of the transportation segment rather than the larger project by the developers, Vornado Realty Trust and The Related Companies.

The larger development was one question among several financial ones asked by state Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, when he stymied the project before it went to the Public Authorities Control Board in late 2006.

“The expanded look at the environmental impact of the larger project will give us some of those necessary facts,” Carter said.

A draft of a new general project plan is expected in the next four to six months, he said, after which the ESDC will hold public hearings on the plan.

[londonlawyer]

ESDC Eyes Farley Post Office Buy in March
FILE UNDER: Amtrak, Penn Station
The state economic development agency is paving the way to get a hold of the Farley Post Office as soon as next month, a crucial part of the Spitzer administration's new strategy for building a new Moynihan Station and revamping Pennsylvania Station.

Shortly after coming into office in January, Pat Foye, the new downstate chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation, extended the option to buy Farley, but just until the end of March--an optimistic target, it seemed at the time, for wrapping up a huge real-estate deal that would have involved moving Madison Square Garden a block west, to the back end of Farley, opening up Penn Station to the sky, and erecting huge office towers around its edges on the Eighth Avenue superblock where the Garden now sits.

But it is increasingly clear that Mr. Foye will not wait until that superdeal gets worked out before buying the post office. And having control of some of the property involved would put the state in a better position to negotiate with the private developers who own Penn Station's air rights over who will pay how much to redo the station.

At a meeting on Wednesday afternoon, the ESDC board agreed to seek a bridge loan or an advance from the developers that would give the agency the few million dollars it would need to close the post-office deal next month. After the meeting, Robin Stout, the president of the Moynihan Station Development Corporation, a subsidiary of ESDC, told reporters that the agency could purchase the post office before wrapping up the larger negotiations. Neither he nor Mr. Foye would say, however, when that would happen.

"A closing date has not been scheduled but we are committed to moving forward as quickly as we can," Mr. Foye said.

A public hearing on the loan comes March 12. The state Public Authorities Control Board could then approve the general project plan--the same one, it turns out, as was rejected last October--before the end of the month, when the option expires.

Will Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver veto it this time around?

- Matthew Schuerman

[TonyO]

State looks to buy post office

by amy zimmer / metro new york
MAR 1, 2007

MIDTOWN. As negotiations continue between the state and private developers who won the bid to transform the James A. Farley Post Office into the new Moynihan Station, the Empire State Development Corporation is moving to complete the first segment of the project.

It announced plans yesterday to buy the $230 million Beaux Arts building from the United States Postal Service, and will seek approval from the Public Authorities Control Board, perhaps as early as this month.

“Discussions with developers have been professional and productive,” said Pat Foye, ESDC’s new downstate chairman. “They have given us reason for optimism that this transaction is important to move forward. The acquisition of the Farley Post Office in and of itself is a prudent investment of state taxpayer dollars.”

The ESDC recently got the USPS to extend its option to buy the post office from last year to the end of March. The Port Authority is expected to foot $140 million for the purchase; the remainder is expected to be paid over time by developers Vornado and the Related Cos.

Since the deal with the developers hasn’t been finalized, the state is seeking an advance or a loan from them to cover a portion — to be determined — to buy the building before finalizing the project. Plans for Moynihan Station fell apart under the Pataki administration, which tried to win approval for the transportation hub but not a larger development that included moving Madison Square Garden a block west to the post office’s annex and redevelop Penn Station along with adding office towers.

“We believe it’s important if we can do this without the private developer,” said Robin Stout, president of the Moynihan Station Development Corporation, a subsidiary of the ESDC. “This building is not going to get away from us.”

A public hearing on the purchase is tentatively scheduled for March 12.

[jarod213]

I think a group of folks here on the forum should meet and devise a plan to present "Rebuild the old Penn Station" to the following key players:

1.) Vishann Chakrabarti - public spokesman for Vornado/Related (the Developers)
2.) Patick Foye - new Spitzer appointed Chairman of the ESDC (Empire State Development Corporation)
3.) dbox (www.dbox.com (http://www.dbox.com))

The plan would include a "pro bono" 3-D animation from dbox (www.dbox.com (http://www.dbox.com)), (the same folks who did 3-D animations for the u/c Bank of America, the new WTC site, the new WTC path station) of the interior and exterior of the Penn based on the old blue printouts and photos.

The plan would show how using modern light-weight precast concrete & fiberglass/composite materials would be used to create the ornate & grand appearances internally & externally, save on construction costs and meet LEED building standards. Similar design & construction techniques were used to build the the Bellagio, Ceasar's Palace, the Paris & Venetian hotels in Vegas. The Venetian is truly spectacular with its ornate marble, granite and sculpted interiors & exteriors and the facades are very light weight, durable & beautifully crafted.

Lastly, the plan should include a .org website where people can email or call a toll free number to where they can apply/volunteer for work (as artisans/craftsmen) and report/identify ALL MISSING RELICS, PIECES FROM THE ORIGINAL STATION i.e., missing columns, friezes, ornamentation. From past postings here and on www.skyscraperpage.com (http://www.skyscraperpage.com), I believe that much of the station (columns, friezes, ornamentation) may be in a NJ swamp and/or a dumpsite and on other buildings in Philadelphia and other cities. This RETRIEVAL PROCESS should be a part of Vornado's/Related's redevelopment plan. It would be a part of the HEALING PROCESS to restore what was truly lost and incorporate as much of the old with the new....

I WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH THIS!!!!! I am a civil engineer and architectural studies student at Tufts University. I live in Rockland County. I think Penn Station is the biggest architectural loss this country has ever seen; along with the old Waldorf Hotel (Empire State Building took its place). Please, if any of you have more information, I'd be willing to gather a group of Penn Station fanatics to help out as well. Someone start a website! This is a once in a lifetime chance to do this, since MSG will probably come down; all the infrastructure is already there...all we would need to do is build the shell and facade, with towers above. This is a great idea...I have been dreaming of this since I was a kid. Again, please post some more info.

[LeCom]

Finally. Thank God. So far Spitzer is doing awesome. I hope this idea (relocating MSG into the post office, creating towers on its old site and two Moynihan station halls in between) goes through.

Don't hope for rebuilding the old station though. Here is one good reason: it won't make money, which is the reason the station was torn down in the first place. Office towers, a shopping center and a new station, if done right, can be not only spectacular but also very lucrative to its developers. Trust me, Vornado won't spend millions rebuilding a white elephant, no matter of how much of a cultural loss it is.

[jarod213]

I'm in the process of starting a group on the Idealist to resurrect Penn Station...I need some community activists in New York to help out! Who's interested? This idea is not about building a white elephant: It's about reconstructing the essence of what was lost, architecturally, with the Old Penn, but doing it with a modern twist...like what they've done with Grand Central, which is a success. Penn Station is the gateway to New York; it should not be the rat hole that it is currently.

[Adyton]

So, for all you New Yorkers who are interested/passionate about this project... go to the www.idealist.org (http://www.idealist.org) and to the following link:

http://www.idealist.org/if/idealist/en/SiteIndex/AssetBrowser/1.3.8.1-default?assetTags=MEETING_TYPE&assetTypes=Event&browse-path=continent%3Acountry%3Astate%3AmetroArea&continent=NORTH_AMERICA&country=United%20States&fetchLimit=30&languageDesignations=en&onlyFetchApproved=1&onlyFetchAssetProperties=1&should-ignore-language-designation=1&sid=84332956-219-kKW&sortOrderings=modificationDate&state=New%20York&validStatusTypes=APPROVED

From the above 20 meeting ads in NYC, you can start your own "Rebuild a NEW version of Penn Station" forum where you all can meet and develop a plan of action. Keep me informed... who knows I may join the "CAUSE" ! :D

Hi Jarod213...

When you set up your "Rebuild a NEW version of Penn Station" group on www.idealist.org, then let the forum know! Then, I will write an email letter to Foye and let him know there is a group of professionals (architects, engineers, students, interns) and passionate citizens who will help in the design, retrieval, rebuild & healing process as outlined above.

Plus you WILL get volunteers/activists from your meeting ad and you can contact the other 20 meeting ad activists to help in this cause. Plus, there are all the professional organizations in NYC that you/others can contact for volunteers/activists. Put the word out... it WILL snowball once it starts... so start it and I'll help!!:)

[STT757]

Don't hope for rebuilding the old station though. Here is one good reason: it won't make money, which is the reason the station was torn down in the first place. Office towers, a shopping center and a new station, if done right, can be not only spectacular but also very lucrative to its developers. Trust me, Vornado won't spend millions rebuilding a white elephant, no matter of how much of a cultural loss it is.

They don't need to rebuild the old Penn Station, what they need to do is restore some dignity to the current situtation.

With regards specifically to the current Penn Station set up, it's three to four different areas with different designs etc.. It also suffers from having multiple jurisdictions which mean different areas are patrolled by different law enforcement agencies to differing effectiveness.

Everything from the design, layout to the police patrols needs to be unified.

Amtrak has it's concourse with it's design, layout and Amtrak police (Federal) patrolling the area. The LIRR has it's area with it's MTA police as well as NY National Guard Members patrolling the area. Then there's NJ Transit's concourse, the NJ Transit concourse is the newest and nicest of the different sections of Penn Station. It's also probably the smallest and least protected as NJ Transit police are not in force as are the LIRR commuters, NJ Transit relies alot on Amtrak police.

With regards to safety Amtrak, LIRR and NJ Transit need to come up with a unified police force under a single command that does not favor one agency over another. They could accomplish this a couple ways.

First all three agencies commit resources and manpower to form a Penn Station police force, with bi-state police powers such as the Port Authority has to make arrests in NY or NJ.

Second they could turn over the controll of Penn Station security to the NYPD, the transfer of control from the Transit Authority police force to the NYPD was instrumental in reducing crime in the Subways. Of course the NYPD would need to receive continuing financial support from all three agencies to cover the costs.

The third option would be to turn the police duties of Penn station over to the Port Authority, again they would need to be compensated by the three agencies.

The current facilities would need to be renovated in a unified design, throughout. The place would look better if everything looked like the new NJ Transit concourse. The biggest improvements that could be made would be to "raise the roof" of Penn Station, and to let some sunlight filter down to the concourses.

At street level a new retail center could be built ala Time Warner Center, the retail center would represent the entrance to both the renovated Penn Station complex and the Office towers and or hotels above. It would be great if your in Penn Station standing in the concourse and you could look up and see the retail area and the offices above, kind of like a central atrium with Penn Station at the bottom, the retail center in the middle and the new office towers surrounding.

Again the Time Warner set up would work well, the Lower level of the Time Warner center is whole foods, at ground level and for a few floors up you have the retail center, then above and surrounding you have the hotel and residences.

That model would work well with Penn Station, transit complex lower levels, retail ground level and for a few floors above, and offices and hotel above and surrounding.

[LeCom]

I've seen the current proposals for the MSG site, including the renderings. They are amazing; the communal space can easily match up to that of the old in grandeur, except redone in a 21st century expression. And, without sacrificing aesthetics, the project includes an enormous podium with quite a bit of retail.

[ablarc]

I've seen the current proposals for the MSG site, including the renderings. They are amazing; the communal space can easily match up to that of the old in grandeur, except redone in a 21st century expression.
When Hernan DeSoto traversed North America, he described in considerable detail an amazing, densely-settled agricultural Eden (which promptly fell victim to diseases trailing in his wake). Consequently, for centuries everyone thought he had exaggerated.

If this proposal you say you saw never sees the light of day, folks won't believe you either; so how about a detailed description. :)

[jarod213]

. . . and a link to pictures!

[TREPYE]

I've seen the current proposals for the MSG site, including the renderings. They are amazing; the communal space can easily match up to that of the old in grandeur, except redone in a 21st century expression. And, without sacrificing aesthetics, the project includes an enormous podium with quite a bit of retail.


Is this SOM's proposals?

[LeCom]

. . . and a link to pictures!
The pictures aren't online. If they were, this would mean a serious security breach.

[ablarc]

The pictures aren't online.
If you can't give us pictures, give us words.

[krulltime]

If you can't give us pictures, give us words.

Yeah please LeCom, do tell us more...

[lofter1]

If you want to PM me the pictures I promise to construct a picture with words (and not post the pics) ;)

[londonlawyer]

I've seen the current proposals for the MSG site, including the renderings. They are amazing; the communal space can easily match up to that of the old in grandeur, except redone in a 21st century expression. And, without sacrificing aesthetics, the project includes an enormous podium with quite a bit of retail.

Have you seen the towers also? How do they look, and how tall are they?

[krulltime]

Yeah are they boxy looking? Do they sloped? Do they have spires? If you can compare it to other buildings in the world, what buildings will that be? I am bitting my fingernails here! LeCom!!! :D

[Dynamicdezzy]

A new MSG, a New Moynihan, a New Penn Station and new set of towers. Do the proposals include all of the above?

[jarod213]

Apparently you must be a genuine non-profit organization, or corporation, to post on idealist... not sure what to do now. I'm assuming the plans are super modern? what else?

[Dynamicdezzy]

FOUR TOWERS NEAR FARLEY
BROOKFIELD STILL NEEDS ANCHOR RIC CLARK
"Never say never." March 14, 2007 -- BROOKFIELD Properties is readying plans for four towers totaling 4.7 million feet at the rear of the Farley Post Office on the west side of Ninth Avenue between 31st and 33rd streets.

"It will be an awesome location," Ric Clark, Brookfield's CEO, said at the Young Men's and Women's Real Estate Association luncheon yesterday.

Clark said plans call for the east end of the plot to host two office towers sharing 4 million square feet while the west end will have two residential towers totaling 700,000 feet.

They hope to kick off marketing the northern office tower of 1.6 million square feet within the next few weeks, for delivery in late 2010. That process will begin with the sharing of new renderings now being prepared by Skidmore Owings Merrill.

While there's no anchor tenant yet, Clark said Brookfield is in discussions with "all the usual suspects" and expects rents to start in the $80 range.


Would they break ground without an anchor tenant? "Never say never," Clark said. "But we would need to know the Moynihan Train Station was going forward."

[Eugenious]

FOUR TOWERS NEAR FARLEY
BROOKFIELD STILL NEEDS ANCHOR RIC CLARK
"Never say never." March 14, 2007 -- BROOKFIELD Properties is readying plans for four towers totaling 4.7 million feet at the rear of the Farley Post Office on the west side of Ninth Avenue between 31st and 33rd streets.

"It will be an awesome location," Ric Clark, Brookfield's CEO, said at the Young Men's and Women's Real Estate Association luncheon yesterday.

Clark said plans call for the east end of the plot to host two office towers sharing 4 million square feet while the west end will have two residential towers totaling 700,000 feet.

They hope to kick off marketing the northern office tower of 1.6 million square feet within the next few weeks, for delivery in late 2010. That process will begin with the sharing of new renderings now being prepared by Skidmore Owings Merrill.

While there's no anchor tenant yet, Clark said Brookfield is in discussions with "all the usual suspects" and expects rents to start in the $80 range.


Would they break ground without an anchor tenant? "Never say never," Clark said. "But we would need to know the Moynihan Train Station was going forward."


I gotta say I feel a little better then something will change with Spitzer in office but still very reluctant to start getting excited about any of this.

I work a block away from Farley and it would be so awesome to be able to see construction and progress up close. I would be able to post construction update pics for you guys like all the time :)

Hope greedy little silver boy keeps his paws off this one.

[antinimby]

^ Don't expect anything awesome here.


That process will begin with the sharing of new renderings now being prepared by Skidmore Owings Merrill.Of course. :mad:

[TREPYE]

That process will begin with the sharing of new renderings now being prepared by Skidmore Owings Merrill.


OY!:( :mad: :rolleyes:

[lofter1]

The Robert Moses Exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York includes a rendering and a very large model of the proposed Mid-Manhattan Expressway, which would have run across Manhattan from the East River to The Hudson along 30th Street.

The rendering is from the 1950s, when Penn Station was still there -- and the railyards at Hudson Yards were still active ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/MSG%20Farley/MCNY_MidManXP_01f.jpg

The model shows the area after Penn Station came down and MSG went up (but before 1 Penn Plaza was erected along 34th Street) ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/MSG%20Farley/MCNY_MidManXP_01b.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/MSG%20Farley/MCNY_MidManXP_01c.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/MSG%20Farley/MCNY_MidManXP_01e.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/MSG%20Farley/MCNY_MidManXP_01d.jpg

[ZippyTheChimp]

State OKs Farley funding

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

March 24, 2007

ALBANY - A state panel on Friday authorized borrowing toward the $230 million purchase of Manhattan's James A. Farley Post Office as a key step toward creating a rail gateway for commuters and commercial center.

The unanimous vote by the 5-member state Public Authorities Control Board to allow the state Empire State Development Corp. to borrow $35 million of its $90 million share of the purchase was the most positive step in months in the $900 million overall project that will be called Moynihan Station, named after the late U.S. Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan. The board failed to act on the borrowing in October.

The state hopes a private-sector developer will take over the $35 million debt months from now as part of an expanded Moynihan plan with larger commercial development, said Robin Stout of the Moynihan Station Development Corp., which is part of the Spitzer administration's Empire State Development Corp. The administration is discussing plans with potential developers now, he said.

The state development corporation will borrow a mortgage for its part of the $230 million purchase of the Eighth Avenue post office building and its western annex from the U.S. Postal Service. The corporation would buy most of the 1.4-million-square-foot facility, but the postal service would retain 250,000 square feet, according to the board's resolution.

This project "is going to transform the transportation landscape on the West Side of Manhattan," said Errol Cockfield, spokesman for the development agency.

The renovation of the Farley post office, which sits just across from Madison Square Garden and covers two blocks in the area of 33rd and 34th streets and Eighth Avenue, had been projected to be completed by 2010. Public funding for renovation will be considered separately by the board.

The expanded landmark would include 300,000 square feet of space for the train station, 850,000 square feet of retail space and 250,000 square feet for the post office.

The Port Authority would use $140 million, some of which has already been spent, and the Empire State Development Corp. was to borrow up to $35 million, while using about $55 million already on hand.

Copyright 2007 Newsday Inc.

[ablarc]

The expanded landmark would include 300,000 square feet of space for the train station, 850,000 square feet of retail space and 250,000 square feet for the post office.
Not really a whole lot of station.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Not really a whole lot of station.If things work out, it's only half the station.

[kliq6]

This project is only important with the bigger picture. Its completion opens up ninth ave to more construction and the whole West Side!

[NYguy]

Observer (broken into 3 segments)

Childs: ‘Most Extraordinary Project Ever Done’
For David Childs, the Freedom Tower is merely the tip of his Gotham iceberg—there’s also Moynihan Station, vetting other Ground Zero architects, and using I.M. Pei’s advice to navigate City Hall


http://www.observer.com/data/articleimages/photoimages/040207_article_sitdown.jpg


By Matthew Schuerman

Location: You have a number of publicly funded—or at least very public—projects: the Freedom Tower, Moynihan Station and Sheldon Solow’s East Side development on the Consolidated Edison site. Why do you keep getting chosen to do these projects?

Childs: Well, I love them, frankly. And I also believe that architects should be involved in the cities in which they live. So I therefore have been involved in a lot of city planning through [the Municipal Art Society]. I’ve been around and have been involved in those things. We also have a very large office that, frankly, loves to do very large, complicated projects.

What’s your secret for negotiating all the bureaucratic and political obstacles?

Bureaucratic isn’t so bad. I’m a big believer in community review: You get some of your best insights sometimes from those types of processes.

The most important thing that an architect does—and this was taught to me by I.M. Pei many years ago—is choosing your plan. Sometimes, in the development world, we have had some developers whose aspirations didn’t meet the project that they were doing.

And that’s the dirty work. Any great architect can do something spectacular for City Hall. Sometimes a person who owns the piece of property, you can drag them from doing a B-minus building to doing a B-plus building, and you have achieved a lot. But it is a tough thing to do.

You have said in the past that you wouldn’t mind it if people looked at one of your buildings and never said, “That’s a David Childs building.”

That’s wonderful. Often, architects can have a very clear style. Frankly, I believe that there are certain fundamentals with every project, but stylistically, they vary considerably. That’s because every project is different because of its site, location and program.

I am particularly happy in a project like the World Trade Center. I think it’s kind of funny to have an architect’s name attached to it. It should be the World Trade Center Tower 1, not the Childs Tower.

How do you think your building will fit in with those at the trade-center site by Norman Foster, Richard Rogers and Fumihiko Maki?

When Larry [Silverstein] and I first got together after 9/11, he said, “I want you to be my Yamasaki [the architect of the original World Trade Center].” And I told him, “Larry, you won’t believe this, but I think that you should have many architects. I believe that because it is too big for one person to do.”

He asked me to recommend a list of architects, which I did. I think they have made a good effort to work together.

So you prescreened those three?

My list was longer, but those three were there.

__________________________________________________ _


As for Moynihan Station, how are you going to get a basketball arena in the back end of the Farley Post Office?

We’re not. Madison Square Garden is to get [the arena] in the back of Farley. They’ve got an architect from Toronto who is doing that.

So you are just doing the front end?

I would say they would think their front door would be Ninth Avenue. We’re doing the Farley, and I must say what I think is wonderful is what has happened under this developer [a partnership between Vornado Realty and the Related Companies]. They have this combined vision of doing a whole building from Seventh to Eighth [avenues]. Right now, we are trying to look at the biggest picture to do what might be the most extraordinary project ever done.

I thought a different architect might be brought in for each building.

They are! There are many other sites Vornado has in the area. I know that Cesar Pelli will be involved, KPF, our friend Norman Foster and ourselves. The site itself has another 5.5 million square feet.

__________________________________________________ ____


What is your reaction to the comment that the Freedom Tower will look like a fortress?

That is the most ridiculous thing. It’s stated by people who haven’t even looked at the plans. We did a new design in which the whole building is fractionally larger than the core of the old building. Now we have transfer floors, so this building is a fraction of what it was.

And yes, we have to have a high percentage of solid in that base to get to a point where, any blast from the street, people will be protected where they work.

I had originally thought, in the original proposal, that the base of the building would be stone or metal. In the end, I decided to make it glass. The whole base is cast glass, which is not flat; it is a cast glass with ridges in it that are actually prisms.

Basically, glass over concrete?

No more so than this is glass over concrete [pointing to his window]. Where it is not glass looking through, it is a glass skin that, when light hits it, it breaks into color behind it. I think it will be the most clear, transparent, light color—I think we hit a home run here. When people see it, they are going to love it.

[lofter1]

Note that Childs refers to the tower as WTC Tower 1.

Only The Observer refers to it as the "Freedom Tower" ...




For David Childs, the Freedom Tower is merely the tip of his Gotham iceberg ...

... I am particularly happy in a project like the World Trade Center. I think it’s kind of funny to have an architect’s name attached to it. It should be the World Trade Center Tower 1, not the Childs Tower ...


Again, here the Observer calls it the FT, but Childs doesn't pick up on that term ...




What is your reaction to the comment that the Freedom Tower will look like a fortress?

That is the most ridiculous thing. It’s stated by people who haven’t even looked at the plans ...

[NYCDOC]

Does anyone know of any organized public opposition to this project?

I just can't understand why the city is turning the development of the project over to private companies to bascially do as they see fit (850,00 sq ft of retail!!!!!).

To top it all off I am disgusted by the increasing likelihood that the Garden will actually be incorporated into the Farley Building. If we really want to make a grand entrance that will truly add to the city and inspire future generations we need a bold design and a PUBLIC use of the building that will draw people into the area and truly encourage development west of 9th avenue. Do we really want more of the same crappy type of stuff that the Garden has fostered in midtown to be the basis of our development here? I don't think so. Let's reach for something more exciting than just people stopping in for drinks and basketball.

To summarize: I think we have an opportunity here to do something GREAT that will be at the heart of the city for years to come and it would be a shame to settle for something less than is deserved.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Well, if you don't move the Garden, the whole plan collapses.

What would you do?

[Vengineer]

I think basketballs pretty exciting.

[Dynamicdezzy]

But wouldn't the "new" opening at Penn make up for that?

[kliq6]

Well, if you don't move the Garden, the whole plan collapses.

What would you do?

Righ ton the money and unless the property tax incentive they have on the present site is moved to the new site, Dolan wont move the Garden. Bloomberg wont give them the tax break so the MSG redvelopment wont even really be talked about seriously until Bloomberg has left office

[ZippyTheChimp]

And without the Garden off the present site, Related will have no incentive to pay for "Penn Station East."

[kliq6]

Correct, thats why right now this job is nothing more to them then to build out the station to get that Duane Reade development site to atleast build a new Condo tower

[NYguy]

Does anyone know of any organized public opposition to this project?

I just can't understand why the city is turning the development of the project over to private companies to bascially do as they see fit (850,00 sq ft of retail!!!!!).

To top it all off I am disgusted by the increasing likelihood that the Garden will actually be incorporated into the Farley Building. If we really want to make a grand entrance that will truly add to the city and inspire future generations we need a bold design and a PUBLIC use of the building that will draw people into the area and truly encourage development west of 9th avenue. Do we really want more of the same crappy type of stuff that the Garden has fostered in midtown to be the basis of our development here? I don't think so. Let's reach for something more exciting than just people stopping in for drinks and basketball.

To summarize: I think we have an opportunity here to do something GREAT that will be at the heart of the city for years to come and it would be a shame to settle for something less than is deserved.

You're missing the whole point. The smaller, well known plan to just convert part of Farley into a terminal for NJ Transit won't be the "grand" public entrance into the city that you seem to be in favor of. That can and will only happen when you remove the Garden (referred to as a manhole cover by the developers) off of Penn Station. That's what the plan is here. And where in the City of New York do you have large public spaces and terminals without retail? It's a very large site, that amount of retail is only a fraction of the size of Macy's.

As far as Dolan moving the Garden, it'll happen (with or without Bloomberg's "blessing"). He know's it's now or never to get the new arena, it's not as if Manhattan is overflowing with sites. This gets done.

[NYCDOC]

First, I don't have a realistic plan as how to get this funded without private funds, if I spent that much time and effort and was successful I'd run for mayor! But have we really come to the point that government is so feabile that it can't do anything without private investment? Here is an idea, maybe instead of approving $120 billion for the war in Iraq the federal government could build 120 amazing stations in different cities throughout the country! War is even more disgusting when you think of it in terms of lost opportunities, huh? Sorry to get off topic, I know it is not realistic, but my point is there is plenty of money in this country for things to get done if there is a desire.

Secondly, I don't understand how moving the Garden really allows for a grand entrance? I mean I know the garden is a POS, but really what difference does it make if the garden blocks the back door of the new station or sits east of it? I think that is a pretty lame excuse by people who are trying to push this project in such a form.

Thirdly as far as retail space having to be linked with public space, I am not arguing for there not to be some retail, but I also think there are some (granted few) public spaces in NYC that have virtually no retail space . . . the midtown NY public library with Bryant Park, that's a full city block with no retail and one of the best public spaces in the city. Anyway, like I said, retail is fine, but I think there are better uses for the space and I wish the city/state government would do something for the people that would be really exciting instead of just turning it over to private developers and getting bland results.

One more point. As I am sure it is clear, it seems like we are settling here in my opinion. I went to a meeting at the Metropolitan Art Society several months ago where Maura Moynihan spoke and basically said that she was okay with settling for less than is deserved simply because it is better than what we have now. To me that was a real let down and that is what this whole project represents to me. And as we've already seen with the new plans, the project will continue to be watered down until we get something that is so profitable for Vornado and Related that we will look back and see this as another ruined chance to make something great in this city.

[Dynamicdezzy]

You didn't seem to counter his point. Farley would only serve Nj Transit. Madison Square Garden sits on top of the "terminal." By removing it (the garden) and constructing a new penn on top, you would have grand opening. Rather than a single entrance, you would have moynihan west and Penn east. Besides, moynihan ("plan a") was getting watered down so much, it wasn't even as grand as it was initially (the chip). Retail makes a station and terminal lively. You have more people sticking around. It would be stupid not to have it. Look at grand central - retail. Look at penn now - retail. Look at the future WTC hub- retail. Look at the future Fulton St. Station - retail. How boring would grand central be with out it? Besides we really can't glorify or crucify it that much before seeing any renderings, comparing both plans. Lets see what happens.

[NYCDOC]

Once again, I didn't agrue against eliminating retail. I just suggested that there might be more interesting uses of the space than having such a large amount dedicated only to retail which increasingly is so generic these days anyway (who wants another wachovia branch and gap).

As far as replacing the garden with penn station east, I didn't realize that was part of the plan. To be very honest that just adds to my dismay. What sense does it make to have two stations across the street from one another when they could just be combine into one building, which serves that purpose well?

I do agree that we should give it a fair shot and wait for the renderings to be produced, but I am not expecting too much based upon what we have already seen.

[Dynamicdezzy]

I apologize if I made it seem that way (regarding retail). While it may seem redundant to have 2 stations, remember all the proposals they are having with the area. 1) NJ Transit is expanding with "THE Tunnel" project. They will need more space. 2) With East Side Access, the chance of having Metro North coming into Penn is more than likely. 3) 7 train expansion (more people coming in)

[Chrysler New Yorker]

Farley Post Office Sells for $230M

http://www.globest.com/newspics/nyc_moynihanstation.jpg

NEW YORK CITY-Late last Friday the Empire State Development Corp. purchased the James A. Farley Post Office for $230 million. The sale came just one week after the Public Authorities Control Board (http://www.globest.com/news/869_869/newyork/159155-1.html) approved the purchase. “The United States Postal Service is very pleased to see that this important building, both in terms of its architectural significance and its postal history, will play a key role in New York City’s future,” says Tom Samra, Postal Service VP, in a statement.
The post office purchase is the first step in the development of Moynihan Station, which is expected to greatly reduce congestion at Penn Station by creating a hub for the Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit. The Related Cos. and Vornado are co-developing the project.

“Infrastructure investments like the one we are making with Moynihan Station are critical to the future economic viability of our state,” says Gov. Eliot Spitzer. “It will serve as an anchor to the redevelopment of the West Side.” The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey paid $140 million for the acquisition with the remainder coming private developers and a mortgage loan.
"The Port Authority is pleased to make a substantial investment in this critical transportation project,” Anthony Shorris, executive director of the Port Authority. “Our region is growing, and we need to start working now to ensure that our infrastructure stands ready to support that growth and reduce congestion. This project, along with the Trans-Hudson Express Tunnel, shows that we are actively tackling these long-term mobility issues."

[NYguy]

You didn't seem to counter his point. Farley would only serve Nj Transit. Madison Square Garden sits on top of the "terminal." By removing it (the garden) and constructing a new penn on top, you would have grand opening. Rather than a single entrance, you would have moynihan west and Penn east. Besides, moynihan ("plan a") was getting watered down so much, it wasn't even as grand as it was initially (the chip). Retail makes a station and terminal lively. You have more people sticking around. It would be stupid not to have it.

Couldn't read his entire response, but that's exactly right.

[NYguy]

As far as replacing the garden with penn station east, I didn't realize that was part of the plan. To be very honest that just adds to my dismay. What sense does it make to have two stations across the street from one another when they could just be combine into one building, which serves that purpose well?

I think your confusion comes from lack of understanding on how the plan and the station itself works. You may or may not be aware that the station itself is underground. The Port Authority Bus Terminal on 42nd actually sits on two seperate blocks, but you navigate the building as one because it's integrated as one above street level.

Penn Station underground will be basically one station. As it is now, you have the LIRR at one end (or most of the station), and Amtrak and NJ Transit at the other. Adding the NJ Transit terminal in the Farley Building won't change that, it will just increase the circulation of the area, adding much needed space (ever try walking through either concourse during rush hour?)

But I guess what you're saying is that you are actually in favor of moving the Garden to Farley and scrapping plans to convert part of that building into a NJ Transit terminal. Otherwise, your argument makes no sense, because you can't squeeze the rest of the rail operations over there.

[jarod213]

Dynamicdezzy is RIGHT when he says we'll have two not-so-grand entrances. Unless the original Beaux-Arts facade is built on Penn East (columns and all), there WILL NOT be a cohesive design at the site. No grand entrance, so to say. If Penn East is built in the Modern style, it will likely not call from the past and not at all act as a companion for the Farley Building. Can you imagine what it looked like when the original Penn stood? AN ENTIRE BLOCK OF CORINTHIAN COLUMNS! I'm sure it was breathtaking.

Now we'll have some modern monstrosity built where the garden is (likely a tower with retail and a times square-like entrance to Penn East), with no visual connection to the Farley building, and a new whore-of-a-building Garden stuck onto the rear of Farley, like a hemorrhoid. Sorry, I'm venting. New York is no longer in the business of building an empire, with icons that give the city a sense of place. Look at the Freedom Tower. Eventually, our only true icons, the ESB and Chrysler, will be overshadowed by mindless glass boxes. Why don't we tear down Grand Central and replace IT with a hole in the ground while we're at it? Modernism is a disease, bred by disillusioned people people after WWII. The fathers of High Modernism and the Avant Garde were ardent racists, mindless communists/marxists, and haters of real art. Why aren't the people of New York demanding a sense of place? Why do they let their city be raped by these mindless glass boxes?

[NoyokA]

Dynamicdezzy is RIGHT when he says we'll have two not-so-grand entrances. Unless the original Beaux-Arts facade is built on Penn East (columns and all), there WILL NOT be a cohesive design at the site. No grand entrance, so to say. If Penn East is built in the Modern style, it will likely not call from the past and not at all act as a companion for the Farley Building. Can you imagine what it looked like when the original Penn stood? AN ENTIRE BLOCK OF CORINTHIAN COLUMNS! I'm sure it was breathtaking.

Now we'll have some modern monstrosity built where the garden is (likely a tower with retail and a times square-like entrance to Penn East), with no visual connection to the Farley building, and a new whore-of-a-building Garden stuck onto the rear of Farley, like a hemorrhoid. Sorry, I'm venting. New York is no longer in the business of building an empire, with icons that give the city a sense of place. Look at the Freedom Tower. Eventually, our only true icons, the ESB and Chrysler, will be overshadowed by mindless glass boxes. Why don't we tear down Grand Central and replace IT with a hole in the ground while we're at it? Modernism is a disease, bred by disillusioned people people after WWII. The fathers of High Modernism and the Avant Garde were ardent racists, mindless communists/marxists, and haters of real art. Why aren't the people of New York demanding a sense of place? Why do they let their city be raped by these mindless glass boxes?

Modernism is not the reason NYC doesn’t build landmarks anymore, the cost to build in New York City is the reason. There are many great modern landmarks throughout the world, NYC not building landmarks is not a recent phenomenon, it is the ridiculous cost to build them that is, for centuries it was the poor and slave-populations that built the great-monuments, the poor still build the great monuments in other countries and cities, such as Dubai, where the Worlds Tallest Building will cost less than a typical new office building in New York, strong labor unions and raw material costs do not afford such an opportunity in New York City however. The new Path Terminal at the World Trade Center is a modern landmark, on the level of Grand Central Terminal, however Grand Central cost $43 million to build, adjust that as you will for inflation, the new (with cutbacks) Path Terminal is estimated to cost an astounding $3.2 billion. That is your reason.

[Dynamicdezzy]

I wasn't saying that we'll have to useless entrances. I just understand why one would think it is. But this why I think otherwise: The original Moynihan seemed very promising with the chip proposal. But then that got watered down. And then it got watered down some more. Additionally, it would have only served NJ Transit. Now that's fine if you're a NJ Transit rider, especially with THE Tunnel Project adding more capacity. But what about LIRR? With some of it's trains diverted towards Grand Central, the chance of getting some of those Metro North trains into Penn is more than likely. You have LIRR and Metro North Riders with the same crappy entrance/exits. An additional Entrance, where The Garden now sits, would definitely be a help. As NYguy stated, the Actual Terminal is underground and not above. The loss of the Farley Annex would be compensated at Penn East. What we now get is a brand new garden and more Tall buildings along with two entrances (one "modern" and one "classic"). Also, it seems that all subway lines (A,C,E,1,2,3,B,D,F,V,N,Q,R,W and possibly the 7) and path trains will be linked together as well (and a new mini terminal under Macy's for NJTransit)

[NYguy]

Dynamicdezzy is RIGHT when he says we'll have two not-so-grand entrances.

No, he isn't.


Unless the original Beaux-Arts facade is built on Penn East (columns and all), there WILL NOT be a cohesive design at the site.

Wrong again.


If Penn East is built in the Modern style, it will likely not call from the past and not at all act as a companion for the Farley Building. Can you imagine what it looked like when the original Penn stood? AN ENTIRE BLOCK OF CORINTHIAN COLUMNS! I'm sure it was breathtaking.

I'm sure it was. But who says we need to pull from the past? Are columns the only things that take your breath away? Surely you can envision more.


Now we'll have some modern monstrosity....with no visual connection to the Farley building, and a new whore-of-a-building Garden stuck onto the rear of Farley, like a hemorrhoid.

You certainly have a way with words...


Why don't we tear down Grand Central and replace IT with a hole in the ground while we're at it?

Do you really want that? I really don't understand how you can go off on a rant about something you haven't even seen yet. And what exactly is it you're ranting about or against? Surely someone concerned about the "rape" of New York would be first in line to knock the Garden down. Surely.

[NYguy]

Now we'll have some modern monstrosity built
where the garden is (likely a tower with retail and a times square-like
entrance to Penn East), with no visual connection to the Farley building, and
a new whore-of-a-building Garden stuck onto the rear of Farley, like a
hemorrhoid.

Just a reminder of what you're pushing to save...

http://encyclopedia.quickseek.com/images/Madison_Square_Garden_ad.jpg

[Dynamicdezzy]

No, he isn't.



LoL. You're right.

Jarod, please read my post above.

[TREPYE]

http://encyclopedia.quickseek.com/images/Madison_Square_Garden_ad.jpg

Its a stinking urban toilet seat.:mad: How metaphorical; where NYC's civic pride (as Ablarc puts it) was initially flushed down with the demolition ofthe original Penn Station.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Amazing discussion, since we've only seen 25% of the project.

[Eugenious]

Its a stinking urban toilet seat.:mad: How metaphorical; where NYC's civic pride (as Ablarc puts it) was initially flushed down with the demolition ofthe original Penn Station.

Not really, it was a purely financial decision for the railroad. You have to realize this is still the era where corporate social responsibility is nonexistent and companies do not pay the full costs of their impact.

What happened with Penn Station was a lapse in foresight, citizen apathy, and overall rejection of classicism in the aftermath of WW2.

[Vengineer]

You have to realize this is still the era where corporate social responsibility is nonexistent and companies do not pay the full costs of their impact.

Indeed.

I would give anything to see this logo come off.


http://en.structurae.de/files/photos/1/100km023/pict5844.jpg

[ZippyTheChimp]

Its a stinking urban toilet seat.:mad: How metaphorical; where NYC's civic pride (as Ablarc puts it) was initially flushed down with the demolition ofthe original Penn Station.The construction and existence of Penn Station, and for that matter GCT, had very little to do with civic pride.

It was one company telling the public that its railroad was better than that of another company.

At the turn of the 20th century, railroads were the dominant industry. Modern investment banking in the U.S. developed to finance railroad construction.

The showcase was the New York-Chicago market. The New York Central RR (GCT) introduced the 20th Century Limited. A few years later, the Pennsylvania RR (Penn Sta)answered with the Broadway Limited.

[TREPYE]

The construction and existence of Penn Station, and for that matter GCT, had very little to do with civic pride.

It was one company telling the public that its railroad was better than that of another company.

At the turn of the 20th century, railroads were the dominant industry. Modern investment banking in the U.S. developed to finance railroad construction.

The showcase was the New York-Chicago market. The New York Central RR (GCT) introduced the 20th Century Limited. A few years later, the Pennsylvania RR (Penn Sta)answered with the Broadway Limited.

I wasn't speaking in terms of what propelled them to be constructed. What I was referring to is the fact that its deconstruction had a lot do to a lack thereof civic pride.

[TREPYE]

Indeed.

I would give anything to see this logo come off.


http://en.structurae.de/files/photos/1/100km023/pict5844.jpg

The logo only??

[ZippyTheChimp]

I wasn't speaking in terms of what propelled them to be constructed. What I was referring to is the fact that its deconstruction had a lot do to a lack thereof civic pride.I know.

But it wasn't a newfound lack of civic pride. Notable buildings have been destroyed throughout NYC history. Unfortunately, there was yet to be any landmarks law.

I think you can better make a case for civic pride with municipal buildings.

[jarod213]

NYGuy, my post was ANTI-modernist...why the hell would I want to save Madison Square Garden??? It's called sarcasm. It should have never been built; what I'm saying is that the proposals will not do a justice to McKim, Meade & White. What ever is built will surely be mediocre at best. I can say that before I see ANY proposals. Architects and planners have lost the ability to successfully give people a sense of place; that's my point. In the past 60 years, what landmarks have been built that really changed New York for the better? I can't think of any; the WTC was a failure, Lincoln Center is a failure, hmmm Peter Cooper Village, Stuyvesant Town? More than failures. Battery Park City is OK, but it doesn't offer a lively street life. I think the last good landmark/neighborhood was Rockefeller Center. Considering the Modern Preservation Movement was spurred by the old Penn's destruction, a lack of education for the masses existed that, in turn, gave way to this "lack of civic pride." People didn't understand how much they would miss their landmarks once Modernism took hold. Today, they do. This is why the Farley building won't be demolished. The basis of Modernism (thank Le Corbusier) was to sweep away the old. Cart it, and all of the problems of the past, off to the landfill. Modernists were obsessed with demolition and replacing landmarks with ultra-regularized monsters; they hated ornament. Has anyone ever seen Le Corbusier's plan for Paris? It's horrifying.

[jarod213]

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/JAREDR%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/JAREDR%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/JAREDR%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpghttp://davidbyrne.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/12_02_05_a_le_corbusier_par_1.jpg
Here's the plan for Paris; it looks A LOT like the east side.

[clubBR]

When is Penn Station officially going to be renamed Moynihan Station?

[ramvid01]

When is Penn Station officially going to be renamed Moynihan Station?

It isn't...the new Post Office will be called Moynihan Station, but the actual station will still be Penn.

[ZippyTheChimp]

NYGuy, my post was ANTI-modernist...why the hell would I want to save Madison Square Garden??? It's called sarcasm. It should have never been built; what I'm saying is that the proposals will not do a justice to McKim, Meade & White. What ever is built will surely be mediocre at best. I can say that before I see ANY proposals.

Previously...


Unless the original Beaux-Arts facade is built on Penn East (columns and all), there WILL NOT be a cohesive design at the site. No grand entrance, so to say. If Penn East is built in the Modern style, it will likely not call from the past and not at all act as a companion for the Farley Building.

Restoring the Beaux Arts facade is no guarantee. You're still going to need office towers, or the financing collapses. You could wind up with kitsch, a tawdry attempt to evoke the past.