New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

[NYguy]

It isn't...the new Post Office will be called Moynihan Station, but the actual station will still be Penn.


I believe it will officially be Moynihan East, and Moynihan West, but it will still be Penn Station. Original plans just called for the Farley to be Moynihan Station, but the developers chose to move forward with a larger plan that actually renovates and opens up the larger Penn Station space, actually creating the grand terminal envisioned by Moynihan.

[NYguy]

I could live with this...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/nova_cain/nyc05/farley-msg01.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/nova_cain/nyc05/farley-msg02.jpg


An idea of the revision in plans...

[ablarc]

You could wind up with kitsch, a tawdry attempt to evoke the past.
You could easily say that was exactly what the original was, with its suspended plaster vaults and its overblown reference to Imperial Rome --and indeed many said just that, both when it was built (do you think Frank Lloyd Wright had one good word for it?) and when it was on the chopping block. It was a particular bete noire of the architectural historian and tastemaker, Siegfried Giedion, who thought it was insufferable kitsch.

Of course we could sink even lower these days: we could make the columns out of Dryvit.

[clubBR]

You could easily say that was exactly what the original was, with its suspended plaster vaults and its overblown reference to Imperial Rome --and indeed many said just that, both when it was built (do you think Frank Lloyd Wright had one good word for it?) and when it was on the chopping block. It was a particular bete noire of the architectural historian and tastemaker, Siegfried Giedion, who thought it was insufferable kitsch.

Of course we could sink even lower these days: we could make the columns out of Dryvit.

As long as they keep the original structure and only add to it, i'm fine with it

[jarod213]

Yes the interior was plaster-vaulted, etc. But the exterior of the original Penn was as solid as the Farley Building. It boasted huge marble busts and statuaries around the old clock face. Frank Lloyd Wright was purely a suburban sprawl architect. Would he have had anything nice to say about a train station? I'm sure he wanted trains obliterated, as they were things of the past, insufficient modes of transport that could no longer compete with the automobile. That's Wright in a nutshell. But, to his disappointment, trains are here to stay.

I think an authentic facade for Penn would be captivating. Towers are fine. Look at GCT? MetLife replaces the previous train sheds that once protruded from the rear of the main concourse, which contained the platforms. Likely, the platforms were roofed by the big glass canopies that Penn Station had. St. Pancras Station in London has this similar glass and cast iron vault. This is what the architects are calling to in the Moynihan plan. It's a great idea to bring light to the platforms. Obviously, the train sheds for Penn are long gone and arguably not able to be revived. All I think is that a replacement for Penn should be as grand, if not more grand, than what they are proposing for Moynihan. If there is going to be companion concourses for the station, then they should be equally beautiful and grandiose.

[jarod213]

NYGuy; I'm assuming the round part is MSG? The glass and steel new building is Penn? No Towers? I think that works very well; modern encased in the old facade.

[Dynamicdezzy]

No. I was part of a very (very) minor debate when those renderings were posted. The glass structure would be the Penn Replacement where MSG stands now. There are no renderings for MSG yet, since another architect is working on that. So thats the Penn rendering side by side with the moynihan rendering (ommitting MSG). That is an idea of the 2 entrances we have been discussing.

[jarod213]

so what's the big round, arena-looking thing? lol They will be building the new MSG in the western Farley Annex. That looks like it to me. . .

[NYCDOC]

Sorry to ask again, I'm obviously missing something here . . . . could you explain to me again what the reason is for not making the entire station in the post office building?

Also, the renderings of the interior of the Farley courtyard are HORRIBLE in their current/most recent form. I can't believe that the brick and all those windows will remain. This station needs to be inspiring!

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
Underground station is configured from 7th Ave to across 8th Ave.

The original plan called for the present Moynihan Station at the Farley with a concourse (the "chip" roof) running between the main Farley and the Annex. There were several proposals for development of the Annex, including a tower on top.

What was decided was to transfer the air-rights over the Annex to a site owned by Related (Duane Reade on 8th and W33rd). The Annex was to have a central concourse from the "chip" ticket concourse to 9th Ave, with retail development. In a sense, you could have referred to this as part of the station. The plan was dumbed down for cost and the chip removed, but otherwise remained the same.

The problem with that plan is that the majority station use (LIRR) is the part under MSG, and would not be renovated.

What is referred to as Plan B was proposed. The air-rights over the Annex are still transferred to the Duane Reade site. MSG is moved to the Annex. In an oval configuration, it won't fit in the Annex (east to west), so the Farley concourse has been eliminated.

Moving MSG allows for renovation of the present Penn Station, and the release of air-rights for development.

[Dynamicdezzy]

MSG would be on the opposite side. That (rendering) would be the new penn. It even states so on the website, where those renderings are from. The clear glass structure represents the clear glass structure they said would be built over MSG (Penn Station). MSG will not be a clear glass structure.

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3579&page=54&highlight=Citytect%3A+I+could+live+with+this

[NYCDOC]

Thanks for the summary. I understand the arrangement now, but I don't really believe it makes any sense. The original plans with the wedge were scraped because it was too costly, but now it is more economical to create a whole new station (penn east)?!?!? I hate always being a skeptic, but it sounds to me that this whole thing is being shifted around to make a sweet deal for someone and that is not the general public.

In my opinion, it makes the most sense to forget about Moynihan station/Penn station east/Penn station west and all this nonsense and focusing on developing Farley into one grand station and then rearranging all of you other elements (office towers, MSG) around that. The elements of this plan already look half assed and as we see with all other plans in this town they will continue to be watered down.

We have a tremendous opportunity here for some real urban master planning to take place with Penn and the whole west side yards. If done correctly the city will benefit greatly to have a great new addition at its core. If not we will have let a great opportunity slip by and in my nonprofessional point of view we already are headed in that direction.

I would like to hear some people's ideal proposals for this area with the station, MSG and the rail yards. I'm sure people on this site can come up with better ideas that what is being floated now.

[JMGarcia]

^
Farley itself is not properly positioned over the tracks nor is it big enough to handle all the traffic for the LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT. Therefore your idea of making 1 grand stating in Farley would simply not work.

Furthermore, if only Farley was done the existing Penn Station would be what? Empty underground halls? Now that sounds like a boondogal with public funds.

With the current plan the "new" Penn Station will run from 7th Ave. to midblock between 8th and 9th. The entire station will either be new or signficantly upgraded. The different railroads using the station can better serve their customer with their own areas.

To do this the private sector is being given a profit incentive rather than the gov't using only the public's money. Without the pricate sector such a complete rebuild and expansion could not be funded. The gov't couldn't afford it.

[Dynamicdezzy]

The new penn would utilize an additional billion dollars.

[NYCDOC]

I am not an expert on any of this as I am sure many of you are and I am just asking questions from a lay person's perspective so sorry if all this seems a little too simplified. But . . .

"Farley itself is not properly positioned over the tracks nor is it big enough to handle all the traffic for the LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT. Therefore your idea of making 1 grand stating in Farley would simply not work."

How could it be that a little web of tunnels currently handles all the traffic from these 3 train lines, but Farley couldn't?

"Furthermore, if only Farley was done the existing Penn Station would be what? Empty underground halls? Now that sounds like a boondogal with public funds."

These tunnels could be upgraded to help take the strain off of Farley and also help provide for future growth.

"With the current plan the "new" Penn Station will run from 7th Ave. to midblock between 8th and 9th."

Why not have it stretch from between 7th and 8th to 9th so that all of Farley can be used and the 7th avenue side can be developed?

"To do this the private sector is being given a profit incentive rather than the gov't using only the public's money. Without the pricate sector such a complete rebuild and expansion could not be funded. The gov't couldn't afford it."

The private companies are not going to pay for anything. They are making a profit here in order to get involved and from previous posts I think I remember statements from the CEO of Vernado or Related commenting about how profitable this will be for the company. The city/state/federal government own most of the land in this area with Farley and the rail yards. It seems to me that the government is in a pretty good position to call the shots here rather than just handing the thing over to private developers. Sure I understand the benefits of the public and private sector working together at times, but the public benefit needs to be given more weight than the profit that the companies will be making here.

Lastly, whenever you walk down the streets of the city you see people looking around taking in the elements which strove to be grand and pushed the limit of what could be done. That is what made New York exciting and that is what brought so many people here in the past and still continues to. I know your arguements are realistic in many ways, but I am disappointed by people always saying that big projects can't be done in this city for one reason or another. That in and of itself worsens the problem.

[Dynamicdezzy]

^ The reason why ppl say "oh it can't be done in this city" is because of $$$$$$$ or political reasons (or even nimby's). Lets not argue whether the idea is any good or not. If "Plan B" does not move forward, it will be because of financial issues or politics. The dolans won't move the current MSG to a new location if it's tax break doesn't move with it. The person who will OK this is none other than Mayor Bloomberg. The Dolans did everything in their power to stop the Jets stadium from being built on the West Side. Bloomberg championed that idea. No Tax Break, no new MSG, No new Penn, No new towers. Now, the second is due to $$$$ reasons. This additional billion needed for the new penn would most likely come from our tax dollars. It goes from being a great idea to..."wait, i don't want you to use my tax dollars for that." I won't argue that either. We're not dubai. We don't have a rich prince dumping $ into projects. Also, you can't compare costs. Now, the reasoning behind having 2 structures is due to that fact that the current MSG sits above the terminal. A new Penn would serve most of the terminal, where Moynihan would only serve NJ Transit.

[Spoon]

What is going to happen in 30 years when the "new MSG" is the old MSG and they need to build another one. Are they going to leave that nasty hulking bulge sticking out of the Farley building. I'd hate to see MSG destory another NY treasure.

Why again do they want to stick the Garden into the post office? I haven't been able to figure it out. Just make it one grand train station. Stadiums become antiquated. The train station can and will always be functional and be there.

[Spoon]

Also if the city or whoever thought that the Fulton Street Transit center had "to much glass" and that Calatrava's Path station had "to much glass" What are they going to say about these renderings that include an S load of glass.

They love to show us brilliance and water it down to the point where I don't even care anymore and we are stuck with something only average forever.

[Dynamicdezzy]

I guess part of the Garden's success is location. Being on top of a major transportation hub makes it more ideal. the "new" MSG would only occupy half of the Farley, not the whole thing. But that would also eliminate the "Grand Concourse." (Unless they also build on top of the rail yards and occupy some of the farley) But the trade off is a newly built structure where the current penn stands (i sound way too repetitive). But you do bring up a very valid point. GCT is breath taking after all these years....will the new MSG be in 30 years???? I won't answer that.

[JMGarcia]

I am not an expert on any of this as I am sure many of you are and I am just asking questions from a lay person's perspective so sorry if all this seems a little too simplified. But . . .

"Farley itself is not properly positioned over the tracks nor is it big enough to handle all the traffic for the LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT. Therefore your idea of making 1 grand stating in Farley would simply not work."

How could it be that a little web of tunnels currently handles all the traffic from these 3 train lines, but Farley couldn't?

Penn is currently overloaded and needs to be expanded, hence the project.


"Furthermore, if only Farley was done the existing Penn Station would be what? Empty underground halls? Now that sounds like a boondogal with public funds."

These tunnels could be upgraded to help take the strain off of Farley and also help provide for future growth.

That is exactly the plan. I understood your original post to mean move everything to the Farley.


"With the current plan the "new" Penn Station will run from 7th Ave. to midblock between 8th and 9th."

Why not have it stretch from between 7th and 8th to 9th so that all of Farley can be used and the 7th avenue side can be developed?
Because the connection to the 1/2/3 is at the 7th Ave. end and the A/C/E is on 8th. There's no subway connection on 9th so why go there?



"To do this the private sector is being given a profit incentive rather than the gov't using only the public's money. Without the pricate sector such a complete rebuild and expansion could not be funded. The gov't couldn't afford it."

The private companies are not going to pay for anything. They are making a profit here in order to get involved and from previous posts I think I remember statements from the CEO of Vernado or Related commenting about how profitable this will be for the company. The city/state/federal government own most of the land in this area with Farley and the rail yards. It seems to me that the government is in a pretty good position to call the shots here rather than just handing the thing over to private developers. Sure I understand the benefits of the public and private sector working together at times, but the public benefit needs to be given more weight than the profit that the companies will be making here.

The private developers will indeed be paying for parts of things although certainly not everything. Secondly, the tax revenues from these developments will be enormous and ongoing.


Lastly, whenever you walk down the streets of the city you see people looking around taking in the elements which strove to be grand and pushed the limit of what could be done. That is what made New York exciting and that is what brought so many people here in the past and still continues to. I know your arguements are realistic in many ways, but I am disappointed by people always saying that big projects can't be done in this city for one reason or another. That in and of itself worsens the problem.
I think the new development will be quite grand. I'm not one that says the city can't do things, just that its much more difficult here. Politicians are a problem. NIMBY's are a problem. People who consider "profit" a dirty word are a problem. Contruction costs are a problem. Surprisingly these are all often overcome in NY.

[ManhattanKnight]

Now that, it appears, a mighty coalition of bribers, bribees and bimbos is hell-bent upon completing the destruction of the last remains of MM&W's triptych (the General Post Office and Hotel Pennsylvania), let's pause for a second to consider the possibility that the old guys (and their patron railroad) got it right the first time.

Penn Station is a railroad station. A commuter railroad station (LIRR & NJTransit), primarily; a long-haul rail station (Amtrak), secondarily. Most of its passengers, I suspect, reach it by subways, not cabs, cars, or feet. Subways run under 6th, 7th and 8th Avenues and Broadway. Penn Station is ideally positioned between 7th and 8th Avenue. Moving even a part of it west of 8th Avenue makes no sense unless maximizing the inconvenience to its users is one's goal.

Senator Moynihan was a bright and usually lucid man. I suspect that the only reason why he ever proposed turning the Post Office into a railroad station was that it never occurred to him that the original station could be rebuilt, in any form, on its original site. Now, of course, if today's rumors and hype have any basis in reality, it can be.

Even back when a mountainous, block-long staircase was thought to be a fitting entrance to a ceremonial public building, it was never a practical way to enter a post office, much less a railroad station whose tracks are 3 stories below ground. MM&W knew that, of course; Penn Station had a grand staircase, too, but it led down from the street to the guts of the station, not up from the street.

So, what function would those stairs have if the present plans are realized? None, apparently; every scheme that I've seen puts the station's main entrances on the side streets. The narrow, one-way (westbound) side streets. (A taxi from a "Farley" rail station to Rockefeller Center would have to go west on 31st or 33rd Streets and south on 9th Avenue before heading in the right direction.) Does that make any sense?

[JMGarcia]

The lavish, original Penn Sta. made perfect sense as a corporate symbol for a highly profitable railroad rolling in money. Plus, it was designed to work well for the passenger.

Times have changed and neither Amtrak, NJT, nor the LIRR need a corporate symbol and they're certainly not highly profitable.

To get a the best possible redevelopment of the area private interests need to be brought in. I think this is beyond question so you really need to start from this basis when thinking about the project as a whole.

[jarod213]

ManhattanKnight, you are totally right. MM&W had it perfectly right. Beaux Arts was ALL ABOUT circulation and relation to the rest of the city. I think the main reason Mr. Moynihan wanted to build the station in Farley is to regain the grand atmosphere that was lost with the destruction of Penn Station. I think this is his sole reason. Remember how Moynihan always referenced art historian Vincent Scully's famous quote,

"One entered the city like a god, one scuttles in now like a rat. . ."

Again, I think the main motivation was to give New York back a grand, public monument. And, monuments are more than likely made of stone. I'm going to say this again, why can't we rebuild the facade of Penn, and make the interior and airspace as modern as anyone would like? Think of it: a glass curtain wall, fronted with Corinthian columns and the original pediments. Has anyone been to the center court and library of the British Museum in London? They built a Classical building in the center of the museum (the museum's old garden court) with an ultra-modern tensile glass canopy above. I think the design is incredible, and the fusion of Classicism and Modernism is beautiful. It perfectly melds the original Beaux Arts museum with its modern counterpart. I think it is a great example when designing our new Penn! Here it is:

http://static.flickr.com/102/271297342_e62bcb01f1_o.jpg

[NYCDOC]

Very nice. I agree this is more along the lines of what we need that the proposed renderings on preceding pages.

[Eugenious]

Very nice. I agree this is more along the lines of what we need that the proposed renderings on preceding pages.

You guys are crazy, no commercial developer is going to build anything resembling classical architecture.

[Vengineer]

Very nice. I agree this is more along the lines of what we need that the proposed renderings on preceding pages.

Maybe, if skilled masonry artisans are cheaper than unionized contractors. Wait, they're probably unionized too. Forget it it won't work. :D

[londonlawyer]

Maybe, if skilled masonry artisans are cheaper than unionized contractors. Wait, they're probably unionized too. Forget it it won't work. :D

Classical columns can be purchased in bulk for residential homes. They're all over in $400,000 houses in Charlotte and Atlanta. Therefore, I assume that a row of columns could be reproduced for this site cheaply. There's a new concert hall in Nashville that looks 150 years old, and it has magnificent columns. I doubt that it was astronomically more expense that a modern looking structure would have been.

[jarod213]

So then why does England do it? I think no one thinks outside of the box. Why do we need to build architecture with no soul? Hasn't anyone heard of Quinlan Terry???? He builds real CLASSICAL architecture, and he does it within today's realm of cost. Seriously, no one is creative anymore. This entire row of buildings was built in London in 2002!!!!!!!!! And if someone wants to call this "kitschy," I'm going to beat them! lol These aren't reproductions; their specific designs have never existed before. Quinlan Terry is actually called a "Radical Classicist," since he is so traditional, he's actually radically different than anything being built today: why settle for the status quo, architecture that can be anywhere, in any city? These buildings are actually build according to historical standards; I would say that the new Penn would boast just the facade, and the interiors and everything just beyond the "classical porch" would be ultra modern; towers, glass vaults, whatever!
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/baker_colour_large3.jpghttp://www.qftarchitects.net (http://www.qftarchitects.net)

[ZippyTheChimp]

I'm a little confused as to exactly what you want.

Do you want the entire exterior facade of the old Penn Station reproduced, or just the 8th Ave side opposite the Farley Building?

In either case, there will be office towers on the site.

[londonlawyer]

I'm a little confused as to exactly what you want.

Do you want the entire exterior facade of the old Penn Station reproduced, or just the 8th Ave side opposite the Farley Building?

In either case, there will be office towers on the site.

The entire facde would be ideal but that obviously won't happen. A row of classical columns along 7th and 8th Avenues would be nice too, but that won't happen either since the dumpy Penn Plaza on 7th surely will remain. At best, it will simply get a new facade.

[Vengineer]

At best, it will simply get a new facade.

Wait am I missing something here? I've been out of the loop. Are they actually talking about restoring the old penn facade?

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
No, it was suggested here.

[jarod213]

I was thinking just the porch; the block-long staircase, landing, columns, the heavy attic story, and pediments. I'd like to see the statuaries that once flanked the main clock back. Instead of going through stone, once on the "porch landing," you go through a very clear (and modern) glass curtain wall to get into the station, which extends upward, above the "porch." A glass canopy can go above the concourses and platforms; somewhere towers can be added above that, which would be typically glass or maybe even stainless steel and glass. With this idea, you can view the facade head on and between the columns you could see all the way through the station, maybe to the other side.

No classical interiors; just wide, open space to maximize circulation and minimize crowding. The platforms can be open air, with balconies above them. The flooring can be the same type of marble as the facade, like GCT. I think it could be very interesting. This facade can go all the way around the building or just opposite Farley, to create a unified "image" on 8th ave. Of course if there is to be street level retail, then the classical facade all the way around might not work, unless the "porch landing" serves as a retail corridor, which would keep rain off of shoppers, and keep the shopping foot traffic off the actual sidewalk. Also, retail can face inward in the station, and provide a sort of enclosed shopping plaza with a lot of light above the platforms. I like the previous idea, the outdoor pedestrian shopping corridor on the facade porch. . . Or, even further, since the interior space is so massive, stand-alone structures can be built within the station (oversized kiosks, basically), that can serve retail; like a starbucks and other cafes. They do this in London, at Waterloo Station and also at London-Euston, and St. Pancras.

[Vengineer]

^
No, it was suggested here.

Oh I see. Well it would be nice if reps from Vornado and Related regularly monitored this site.

[Teno]

Because we are so good a telling them how to spend their money?

[Bob]

Philip Johnson stepped out of the box with his AT&T building back in the 70s. Who's to say an architect today can't also take a chance, and draw upon historical styles for inspiration? Beaux-arts is a rich treasure trove, and so is art-deco/art-moderne.

[TREPYE]

Philip Johnson stepped out of the box with his AT&T building back in the 70s. Who's to say an architect today can't also take a chance, and draw upon historical styles for inspiration? Beaux-arts is a rich treasure trove, and so is art-deco/art-moderne.

HA! developers cutting their profit potential for aesthetic taste, dont make me laugh. The only developer that has this much regard for aesthetics is Ratner whom the jury is still out on (IMO) depending on how Beekman Tower that is about the block the Woolworth Blg ends up looking.

[pianoman11686]

You guys are crazy, no commercial developer is going to build anything resembling classical architecture.

I agree. I just don't understand why we need to go back 100 years and rebuild Beaux-Arts. Where is there a recent example of this occurring? Most train stations these days are glass & steel (thinking of new stations in England, Japan, Italy, Portugal, etc.), yet they manage to be majestic. And they're likely more economical and easier to maintain.

[BPC]

I agree. I just don't understand why we need to go back 100 years and rebuild Beaux-Arts. Where is there a recent example of this occurring?

The only recent example I can think of for monumental stone architecture (although not technically Beaux Arts) would be Richard Meier's Getty Museum in LA.

[Citytect]

I just don't understand why we need to go back 100 years and rebuild Beaux-Arts.

Okay, good, I'm not the only one.

I think the focus should be on good design, not the particular style of the design. Classical. Modern. Egyptian (gotta love those ancient Egyptian train stations). Whatever, I don't care. I just want a beautiful and functional train station.

[clubBR]

Beautiful, functional, and cost efficient.

[ablarc]

Beautiful, functional, and cost efficient.
Pick any two.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Functional and cost efficient?

Fulton Transit Center.

[TREPYE]

Functional and cost efficient?

Fulton Transit Center.

....and total waste of space. I usually dont say this about low rise stuctures as NYC could use some open space but this design is so bad that they should just build a tower on top of this station.

[ablarc]

Beautiful, functional, and cost efficient.


Functional and cost efficient?

Fulton Transit Center.
Functional, maybe...

But there are plenty of others that fit those two criteria: anything by Kondylis, Scarano, Kaufman or O'Hara.

Beautiful and functional: Grand Central, the Public Library, the Metropolitan Museum, Herzog and DeMeuron's condo building, Hearst.

Beautiful and cost efficient: Time-Warner, Trump's tall East Side condo, Meier's Perry towers.

All three: not sure it's possible.

[jarod213]

you think Trump on the east side is beautiful? what the hell?

[TREPYE]

you think Trump on the east side is beautiful? what the hell?

I know, it perplexes me too how some people actually like the long black glass monolith designed by the beloved Klondys (not that there is anything wrong with that ;)). From the looks of this towers design it couldnt have taken more than 30 seconds to conjure up. :rolleyes:

[MidtownGuy]

I know, but interestingly it is the best of his towers. The least fussy. It isn't trying to be anything else than what it is...a "2001:A Space Odyssey" type monolith. The smooth skin really works. It's the only one of his buildings that I don't despise. In Queens over the weekend, It looked impressive from a distance and really adds to the skylne.

[BPC]

I know, it perplexes me too how some people actually like the long black glass monolith designed by the beloved Klondys (not that there is anything wrong with that ;)). From the looks of this towers design it couldnt have taken more than 30 seconds to conjure up. :rolleyes:

I'm not much for black monoliths either, but of that genre, this one is far and away the best. There is something about its proportions -- tall and skinny -- which makes the building very graceful, particularly in its location, where it acts as sort of a "shadow" to the white UN monolith. All those who opposed it on the ground that it was too close to the UN were, IMO, proven wrong.

[NYguy]

Times Herald-Record

N.Y. purchases Farley Post Office Building
The state's purchase of the Farley building across from Pennsylvania Station could ease chronic overcrowding.

By Judy Rife
April 09, 2007

New York — The state has purchased the Farley Post Office Building, the first outward sign that the Spitzer administration is picking up the scattered pieces of the plan to transform the National Historic Landmark into Moynihan Station.

The state, through the Empire State Development Corp., is paying the U.S. Postal Service $230 million for the 1912 Beaux Arts masterpiece that sprawls across eight acres on Eighth Avenue opposite Pennsylvania Station.

The purchase, however, doesn't tell west-of-Hudson commuters who ride NJ Transit trains exactly when the chronic overcrowding they endure at Penn Station will become history.

The Pataki administration put a 2010 completion date on the $818 million project — but that was before competing proposals from private developers eager to piggy-back on the new transit hub brought planning to a halt.

Errol Cockfield, a spokesman for the development corporation, said the new administration has been negotiating with prospective developers since January but declined to provide any details. Regardless, the project can't move forward until they are completed.

NJ Transit, the anchor tenant at Moynihan, is eager to get moving on its part of the project and will meet with Spitzer's new staff at the development corporation for the first time this month.

Cockfield said NJ Transit's memorandum of understanding with the state will be honored. The memorandum gives NJ Transit, which stepped forward after Amtrak withdrew from the project, exclusive space for and operational control of a new commuter rail station within Moynihan. NJ Transit will pay about $2.3 million a year for the 99-year lease and bear the expense of building its space.

Charles Wedel, NJ Transit chief financial officer, said many details of the 99-year lease still have to be addressed but voiced optimism that the station will come on line sooner rather than later. Preliminary engineering work has already begun.

"We want to get it finished in advance of the tunnel to give our customers some relief," said Wedel.

The tunnel is part of the NJ Transit project known as Access to the Region's Core that is designed to double commuter rail capacity to Midtown. It includes a second rail tunnel between New Jersey and New York, to supplement Amtrak's, as well as another rail station beneath 34th Street. The new station will be connected to Penn and Moynihan.

NJ Transit wants to break ground for ARC in 2009 and complete it in 2016.

In the interim, to offset capacity issues in Amtrak's tunnel and at Penn, NJ Transit is investing in multi-level cars to get more commuters into Midtown and building another entrance to its Seventh Avenue concourse at Penn near 31st Street.

But as Wedel pointed out, Moynihan is a big piece of these interim improvements, all of which are designed to work together.

Moynihan will allow NJ Transit to extend its platforms and tracks at Penn to connect to a new West Side concourse and give commuters real breathing room.

The new transit hub at Moynihan will also benefit Amtrak and its other tenant at Penn, the Long Island Rail Road, along with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

The Port Authority, which contributed $140 million toward Farley's purchase, depends on the three rail lines to deliver thousands of passengers to its Newark and Kennedy airports. It is also NJ Transit's partner in ARC.

[NYguy]

More on what will be in reality an even larger expansion of Penn Station...

(Chelsea Now)

New Jersey Transit unveils ARC plan to mixed reviews

http://chelseanow.com/cn_29/transit.gif

New Jersey Transit’s Access to the Region’s Core (ARC) plan aims to reduce passenger backlogs like this at Penn Station.


By Chris Lombardi

To Tom Schulze of New Jersey Transit, the agency’s $7.4 billion Access to the Region’s Core (ARC) Project is a logical, long-planned next step. To Lewis Coletti of the Building Trades Employment Organization, it’s a job-generator that’s long-overdue, “probably 10 years too late.” To Christine Berthet of Community Board 5, it’s a “a great proposal that does not go far enough.” But to critics like George Haikalis of the Institute for Rational Urban Mobility and Albert Papp, Jr., of the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers, the project is what Papp called “a second-rate solution for a first-rate problem.”

All these voices, and more, filled the Great Hall at the Fashion Institute of Technology last Tuesday to talk about ARC’s just-released draft environmental impact statement, which was commented on by more than 100 people at what was the last of NJT’s six public hearings on the statement.

The agency’s presentation included the geology of the Trans-Hudson Express Tunnel (“T.H.E. Tunnel”) and its two new commuter rail tracks, statistics on NJT’s passenger capacity both before and after the tunnel opens in 2016, and the design of a proposed new station deep below Macy’s on 34th Street.

Most of those commenting agreed that the tunnel itself was necessary, given the strain on the current commuter rail system, as well as auto traffic gridlock on both sides of the river. But many differed as to what should happen when the trains come to Manhattan, with some holding out for a regional-rail approach that would divert half the passengers to Grand Central Station, and others raising questions about terrorism, and still others decrying the feared disruption caused by the seven-year-long construction phase. The advanced stage of the project, including $2 billion in recently approved funding from the Federal Transit Administration, gave the proceedings an aura of inevitability, but local residents and transit riders still felt free to ask for more clarity.

As Philip Craig, of Upper Montclair, N.J., said at the hearing’s closing, “The devil’s in the details.”

The hearing began with Ruby Siegel of Transit Link, NJT’s management consultant on the proposal, and NJT’s Tom Schulze, the ARC project director. They outlined the recent history of the ARC proposal, which entered the development phase more than five years ago and was adopted at the end of 2005 by all the area transit agencies. The need, they said, is urgent: The commuter rail system is already at capacity, carrying nearly 40,000 passengers each rush hour and stressing the 100-year-old tunnel and platforms, while auto and bus traffic congestion worsens daily. The core goals of the ARC Project, Siegel added, are to increase capacity for new train passengers, offer “one-seat rides” to more passengers who currently have to transfer in Hoboken or Secaucus, and relieve both overcrowding and traffic congestion. NJT estimates that after the tunnel is completed in 2016, 35,000 fewer cars will enter the city each day.

As Schulze explained, “T.H.E Tunnel” is actually shorthand for two tunnels along the Northeast Corridor, which would arrive and empty out in a new terminal at West 34th Street, just below Macy’s: a “deep-cavern” station far below Penn Station, with an upper platform level approximately 95 feet below street level, and a lower platform level at 135 feet below. Siegel stressed that with 21st-century technology, commuters could get to street level just as fast as they now can at Penn. The station’s six entrances are all substantially uptown from the current Penn Station and the new Moynihan Station at 31st Street, while the deep-cavern stations will extend almost two full blocks, from Eighth Avenue to Sixth Avenue and Broadway.

Overall, Siegel said, the project would nearly double the number of trains crossing the tunnel from 23 to 48, and increase the passenger load by 70 percent. She ended the presentation by outlining a number of environmental concerns, such as air quality, wetlands and habitats, and by describing NJT’s proposals to mitigate any negative impacts.

After NJT’s presentation, supporters chimed in quickly, with business leaders united in support.

Dan Bederman, of the 34th Street Partnership, called a potential 30-minute decrease in commute time “huge for our building owners, who are looking to fill their buildings,” while Ed Ott, of the Central Labor Council, and Lewis Coletti, of the Building Trades, stressed the 10,000 construction jobs and 1,000 “jobs in place” estimated to be created by the plan. Thomas Zapf of Macy’s delighted in how the tunnel might decrease his own commute and decrease the parking hell both endured and created by his customers. Local elected officials then chimed in: State Senator Tom Duane, an early endorser, sent a statement saying: “This project makes sense on so many levels”; he was speaking, he said, of “my constituents who live in an around the Lincoln Tunnel.”

Danielle Decebo, from City Council Speaker Christine Quinn’s office, mainly spoke of the 35,000 fewer drivers. “Anyone can see the exiting tunnel is near capacity,” she said, adding that “far too many drivers treat streets and roadways as access roads.”

But critics of the project, like transit planner George Haikalis, of the Institute for Rational Urban Mobility, and Jefferson Chase, of Trip-to Work+, a nonprofit transportation think tank, stood to question both the project itself and the agency’s claims about its proposed benefits.

“This project is a stark pronouncement of the collapse of regional planning in New York City,” said Haikalis, who served on the now-defunct Tri-State Transportation Planning Commission in the 1980s and now urged a regional-rail approach, akin to systems in Tokyo and Philadelphia. The deep-cavern station, he said, is a dangerous, multi-million dollar waste of time; he instead urged a plan that NJT had developed and rejected, where the second of the two tunnels would never enter Penn Station but instead run directly to Grand Central Station, since an estimated 40 to 50 percent of NJT passengers are headed to the east side of Manhattan.

Chase endorsed Haikalis’ approach and belittled those at the hearing who’d recited the same statistics as the presenters. “Listening to the supporters, I find myself listening to a constant recitation of your [NJT’s] press release,” he said. Chase questioned the plan’s claimed benefits to present NJT riders, most of whom don’t work within walking distance of Penn Station, and also raised anti-terrorist concerns about adding 35,000 potential new passengers so close to the current station.

New Jersey Transit officials told Chelsea Now that NJT had already gone to the transportation committees of Community Boards 4 and 5, and “they’re very supportive.” Asked about the option of extending service to the east side, they said it was a good idea, but just not now. “That’s the next step,” said spokeswoman Penny Hackett. “Right now we’re trying to break a bottleneck, and get more tracks and more platforms—and more cars off the streets.”

But while local residents at the hearing endorsed the goal of cars off the streets, that hardly erased their concerns about the havoc that construction of the tunnel and station would wreak on the neighborhood. Christine Berthet, of Clinton-Hells Kitchen Pedestrian Safety Coalition, asked that NJT think creatively about how to minimize the traumas of the projected 80-month construction period (about seven years).

“This all happens at the same time as the Number 7 [subway] extension, and the M station construction,” said Berthet. “Our neighborhood cannot absorb all this at the same time.” She also suggested that the agencies involved ban all vehicles that are not high-occupancy vehicles from the Lincoln Tunnel, and that in general they needed to go beyond the careful vision outlined in the proposal and the environmental impact statement.

“It could be bolder,” she said. “We’ve now heard here various ways it could go further.”

Berthet, who also serves on C.B. 4’s Transportation Planning Committee, also pointed out that the projected increase in capacity for a project slated to open in 2016 doesn’t come near satisfying even the passenger levels already projected for 2025 by the same transit agencies.

“If it’s already at capacity when it’s finished,” said Berthet, “that’s not acceptable.”

[jarod213]

So the entrances to 34th Street Station are not even going to be in Moynihan or Penn? What the hell? That might be OK to alleviate crowding in the dual-station. . . Is the proposed system really going to once again be at capacity when it is completed? If this is true, what the hell are we doing?

[londonlawyer]

Caught a scoop on the MSG site design. Looks like Foster is getting involved. Possibly a Foster + SOM collaboration. Its basically Time Warner Center on steroids plus a train station. The scope is MASSIVE.

1350-1400' roof/parapet height for tower 1 and a 1200' roof/parapet height for tower 2.

Wow! How is the design? The buildings obviously are very tall, but are their designs conventional, amazing or something in the middle?

Also, aren't their supposed to be three buildings on the site (i.e., 2 office and 1 residential/hotel) or is the residential/hotel planned for the Duane Reade site on 34th St. considered the third building?

PS: Will the horrible Penn Plaza Tower on 7th be razed?

[Adyton]

Vengineer... Hurry up and answer... the suspense is overwhelming!

[kliq6]

Wow! How is the design? The buildings obviously are very tall, but are their designs conventional, amazing or something in the middle?

Also, aren't their supposed to be three buildings on the site (i.e., 2 office and 1 residential/hotel) or is the residential/hotel planned for the Duane Reade site on 34th St. considered the third building?

PS: Will the horrible Penn Plaza Tower on 7th be razed?

They are not going to raze a fully leased office building, no matter how ugly you think it is!

[londonlawyer]

They are not going to raze a fully leased office building, no matter how ugly you think it is!

But they could let the leases expire and rebuild an nicer building that gets $90psf as opposed to $45.

[Vengineer]

Wow! How is the design? The buildings obviously are very tall, but are their designs conventional, amazing or something in the middle?

Also, aren't their supposed to be three buildings on the site (i.e., 2 office and 1 residential/hotel) or is the residential/hotel planned for the Duane Reade site on 34th St. considered the third building?

PS: Will the horrible Penn Plaza Tower on 7th be razed?

I'm assuming you're referring to 2 Penn Plaza and not 1 Penn Plaza. Its still there, they're not planning on demolishing it. I would assume that they would at least re-clad the horrific structure.

[londonlawyer]

I'm assuming you're referring to 2 Penn Plaza and not 1 Penn Plaza. Its still there, they're not planning on demolishing it. I would assume that they would at least re-clad the horrific structure.

I was referring to 2 Penn Plz.

How do the new towers look? Are they awesome or simply ok (e.g., like 1 WTC)?

[Adyton]

Vengineer... please give us an idea of what each tower will look like i.e., looks like BofA tower in Charlotte, NC (modern art deco tower with crown-spire) or Hearst tower w/diagrids with flat roof or crown or ?

IOW, please tell us if each have a flat roof or a crown/spire. If crown/spire, decribe the design and tell us roof/spire height.

Thanks... :D

[Vengineer]

I was referring to 2 Penn Plz.

How do the new towers look? Are they awesome or simply ok (e.g., like 1 WTC)?

Its still in the early conceptual phase. I think its an advanced stacking diagram more than anything else. I wouldn't assume too much on shape, if there is any.

[Adyton]

Thanks Vengineer... it appears you've seen "massing" designs and/or models and not any final designs... unless you're sworn to secrecy and must be vague:rolleyes:

[londonlawyer]

Its still in the early conceptual phase. I think its an advanced stacking diagram more than anything else. I wouldn't assume too much on shape, if there is any.

Thanks. Is the third tower the one on the Duane Reade site or will a third tower rise in place of the current MSG along with the other two?

Since 2 Penn Plaza will remain, I assume that the main entrance will be on 8th. Is that correct?

[Adyton]

Vengineer... when is Vornado and Related going to reveal the grand plan to the public? Do you know a date? We all know it could be anytime?

[Vengineer]

Vengineer... when is Vornado and Related going to reveal the grand plan to the public? Do you know a date? We all know it could be anytime?

I'm guessing you're new. I'm just a janitor. Don't ask me. :confused:

[kliq6]

Vengineer... when is Vornado and Related going to reveal the grand plan to the public? Do you know a date? We all know it could be anytime?

Nothing gets unveiled till they get MSG to move, and that does not happen till Mayor Bloomberg is gone since he wont let the property tax breaks they have now move to the new site

[londonlawyer]

Nothing gets unveiled till they get MSG to move, and that does not happen till Mayor Bloomberg is gone since he wont let the property tax breaks they have now move to the new site

While Bloomberg rightfully despises the Dolans, blocking this deal would be a move worthy of Sheldon Silver. It's great for the city, and his personal feelings should not get in the way. Hopefully, the free market will clobber the Dolans, and events like circuses, concerts. etc. that would have gone to MSG will go to the new Barclay's arena in Brooklyn.

[Adyton]

Bloomberg will give up the 5-6 million per year in tax breaks to the dolans especially when the city will be reaping 10's to 100's of millions more from the new development itself. It's a no brainer. Bloomberg is not stupid... he's first a businessman and will do what's right for the city... and this project will bring in LOTS more than what the city will give up in tax breaks to the dolans:cool:

[Peteynyc1]

How many years will it take before they actually begin work on this? This one is worse than the Freedom Tower.

[MidtownGuy]

Maybe we'll just all be too old...:eek: a bunch of wired geriatrics !

[Derek2k3]

This city is impossible....Ideas for this project began in 1993. We will be on page 130 and have to endure 200 more press releases before this breaks ground. I was in 8th grade when this project was officially unveiled in 99 and now I'm graduating from college...ridiculous.

[TREPYE]

I am not interested mundane 1400 and 1200 footers that are going to block & tamper the skyline around the vicinity of the ESB. These designs better be aesthetically competent and complimentary to the quintessential symbol of NYC. And the fact that it even resembles the TWC, as it has been mentioned, freaks me the crap out. When I think of the TWC I think of monotonous all glass flatness that contribute to the midtown plateau. Hopefully Foster can save us from SOM's shorcomings in skyscraper design.

[Adyton]

Hey... I second that... we do NOT need another sub-par SOM-NYC glass box design by Childs a la Sherwood Equities proposed monstrosity for Hudson Yards. We need something like Williams' late 80's south ferry seaport design or what he's currently proposed near Random House to compliment the ESB.... I only hope Foster will pleasantly surprise us with a pair of modern art deco masterpieces that have lovely setbacks, tapering crowns and spires:)

[Alonzo-ny]

I dont think foster will do it wrong, if he can make an addition to something as important as the british museum or plant a skyscraper on a historic base he can do this well.

[londonlawyer]

Hey... I second that... we do NOT need another sub-par SOM-NYC glass box design by Childs a la Sherwood Equities proposed monstrosity for Hudson Yards. We need something like Williams' late 80's south ferry seaport design or what he's currently proposed near Random House to compliment the ESB.... I only hope Foster will pleasantly surprise us with a pair of modern art deco masterpieces that have lovely setbacks, tapering crowns and spires:)

What has Williams currently proposed near Random House? Isn't Randon House based in the newish building on B'Way and 54th?

[londonlawyer]

I'm assuming you're referring to 2 Penn Plaza and not 1 Penn Plaza. Its still there, they're not planning on demolishing it. I would assume that they would at least re-clad the horrific structure.

Does this plan call for the demolition of the one story structures on the southwest corner of 34th and 7th that currently house the Torneau shop and another store?

[Vengineer]

I'm not sure which building you're referring to but it seems like everything to the west of 2 penn plaza is going to get wiped out. The building's footprint takes up the entire site.

[londonlawyer]

I'm not sure which building you're referring to but it seems like everything to the west of 2 penn plaza is going to get wiped out. The building's footprint takes up the entire site.

This Torneau store on 34th and 7th and the junk just south of it (and north of 2 Penn) on 7th.

http://images.buzznet.com/assets/users7/elayne/default/gallery-msg-1115325126-2.jpg?856569800

[Adyton]

Here's the link to Frank Williams website for the "Extell Tower" across the street from the Carnegie Hall Tower (near Random House):

http://www.archfwa.com/default.aspx?page=5&type=90&project=339&set=1&focus=0&link=1

Check out the rest of his portfolio. He's got another planned near the WTC site.. called the "West Street Residential Tower":

http://www.archfwa.com/default.aspx?page=5&type=90&project=558&set=1&focus=0&link=1

It's beautiful... similar to South Ferry Plaza... also shown in his portfolio:

http://www.archfwa.com/default.aspx?page=5&type=90&project=327&set=1&focus=0&link=1

I don't know how to post pics... just links. Someone feel free to post his pics!:) Now, couldn't you just see how a pair of 1450' and 1250' modern art deco F. Williams towers would fit nicely on the new Penn Station site?

Oh... his gem is the "Dubai Residential Tower":

http://www.archfwa.com/default.aspx?page=5&type=99&project=551&set=1&focus=0&link=1

Now... that is befitting for NYC... too bad Dubai gets it!

[londonlawyer]

Here's the link to Frank Williams website for the "Extell Tower" across the street from the Carnegie Hall Tower (near Random House)...

Thanks. I think that Extell is hiring Portzamparc for that site, although Williams' proposal is awesome.

[Vengineer]

This Torneau store on 34th and 7th and the junk just south of it (and north of 2 Penn) on 7th.

http://images.buzznet.com/assets/users7/elayne/default/gallery-msg-1115325126-2.jpg?856569800

Oh I see now. Thats the 1 Penn Plaza site... with the foot locker. I can't answer that with what I know but yes that site is part of the scope of work.

[londonlawyer]

Oh I see now. Thats the 1 Penn Plaza site... with the foot locker. I can't answer that with what I know but yes that site is part of the scope of work.

Thanks. Does MSG or Vornado own that site? If so, I assume that it will be razed.

[MidtownGuy]

I am not interested mundane 1400 and 1200 footers that are going to block & tamper the skyline around the vicinity of the ESB. These designs better be aesthetically competent and complimentary to the quintessential symbol of NYC.

I agree 100%.

[Vengineer]

I just realized this means 3-5 years of hell for LIRR commuters. They will have to serve the entire load of Penn Station on Moynihan during this time of construction.

[londonlawyer]

I agree 100%.

I agree also. However, Vornado seems committed to hiring quality architects like they did for the Bloomberg Tower. They're no Harry Macklowe.

[TREPYE]

I agree also. However, Vornado seems committed to hiring quality architects like they did for the Bloomberg Tower.

This does not give me much comfort. Pelli is a great architect, however the Bloomy tower is nothing to write home about, its at best OK IMHO. I think his talents were somewhat diluted in that design. Let pray that this does not happen with Foster.

[Alonzo-ny]

I thought bloomberg was mostly the product of cesars son?

[NYguy]

Nothing gets unveiled till they get MSG to move, and that does not happen till Mayor Bloomberg is gone since he wont let the property tax breaks they have now move to the new site

Word is that the proposal itself will be unveiled in the next few months. Spitzer wants to get this thing moving. Shelly didn't stall it for nothing.

[NYguy]

Architectural Record

30 Architects Sound Off about New York’s Future

April 16, 2007
By James Murdock

Ask David Childs, of Skidmore Owings & Merrill, what he thinks the most important project in New York City is right now and his reply might surprise you—not the Freedom Tower, as you might expect, but the relocation of Penn Station from its current site under Madison Square Garden into a McKim Mead & White post office across the street.

“It’s the centerpiece of New York, it’s the front door,” Childs says. “It’s the piece that ties us together along to the whole East Coast and to the country.”

Moments like these highlight “New New York: Fast Forward,” an ambitious multi-media exhibit at The Architectural League of New York, on now through May 5 at the Urban Center, 457 Madison Avenue. Gregory Wessner, the show’s curator, interviewed 30 architects and is screening the results in a gallery full of DVD players.

Discussion topics in these films, which average five minutes apiece, included how to reconcile preservation with the ambitions of contemporary architect; whether or not architecture is always good for a city; and the Moses v. Jacobs debate sparked by a series of Moses retrospectives and symposia this winter.

In addition to Childs, Wessner interviewed a who’s who of architects including Deborah Berke, Hugh Hardy, Richard Meier, and Ronnette Riley. All of the interviews will be made available later this month at www.archleague.org. Excerpts, courtesy The Architectural League, can be viewed at left.

While much of the show is local in focus, describing projects under construction around New York, many of the themes discussed apply to cities worldwide. Michael Sorkin, for instance, talks about how architecture can either unite or separate people by becoming a marker of privilege and wealth. And Greg Pasquarelli, of SHoP Architects, explains why he thinks architecture is the last refuge of the generalist.

“New New York” is the fifth in a series of show examining the city’s growth that the league has sponsored since 1998. Lewis.Tsurumaki.Lewis designed and installed the exhibition. The centerpiece is a model of the city, made of aerial photos and postcard-sized renderings, that depicts roughly 560 current and future construction projects throughout the city’s five boroughs. It was inspired by the much larger New York City Panorama that Robert Moses commissioned for the 1964-65 World’s Fair.

video featured
http://archrecord.construction.com/n...s/070416ny.asp

[NYguy]

More quotes from David Childs regarding the redevelopment...(Observer)


Childs: ‘Most Extraordinary Project Ever Done’
For David Childs, the Freedom Tower is merely the tip of his Gotham iceberg—there’s also Moynihan Station, vetting other Ground Zero architects, and using I.M. Pei’s advice to navigate City Hall

http://www.observer.com/data/articleimages/photoimages/040207_article_sitdown.jpg

By Matthew Schuerman

As for Moynihan Station, how are you going to get a basketball arena in the back end of the Farley Post Office?

We’re not. Madison Square Garden is to get [the arena] in the back of Farley. They’ve got an architect from Toronto who is doing that.

So you are just doing the front end?

I would say they would think their front door would be Ninth Avenue. We’re doing the Farley, and I must say what I think is wonderful is what has happened under this developer [a partnership between Vornado Realty and the Related Companies]. They have this combined vision of doing a whole building from Seventh to Eighth [avenues]. Right now, we are trying to look at the biggest picture to do what might be the most extraordinary project ever done.

I thought a different architect might be brought in for each building.

They are! There are many other sites Vornado has in the area. I know that Cesar Pelli will be involved, KPF, our friend Norman Foster and ourselves. The site itself has another 5.5 million square feet.

[kliq6]

Bloomberg will give up the 5-6 million per year in tax breaks to the dolans especially when the city will be reaping 10's to 100's of millions more from the new development itself. It's a no brainer. Bloomberg is not stupid... he's first a businessman and will do what's right for the city... and this project will bring in LOTS more than what the city will give up in tax breaks to the dolans:cool:

I GUARANTEE, this wont get the go ahead till Mike is out of office, they will start Farley Post office but MSG wont be moving yet, unless Spitzer goes over Mike's head which can happen but wont be a good thing

[TREPYE]

Architectural Record

30 Architects Sound Off about New York’s Future

April 16, 2007
By James Murdock

Ask David Childs, of Skidmore Owings & Merrill, what he thinks the most important project in New York City is right now and his reply might surprise you—not the Freedom Tower, as you might expect, but the relocation of Penn Station from its current site under Madison Square Garden into a McKim Mead & White post office across the street.

“It’s the centerpiece of New York, it’s the front door,” Childs says. “It’s the piece that ties us together along to the whole East Coast and to the country.”


Yeah, well the Freedom Tower was supposed to be an iconic symbol of NYC's recovery from 9/11 and look what we ended up with. So Im not going to take his perception on the importance of this site as a commitment to good progressive architectecture that will make New Yorkers proud.:cool:

[Eugenious]

The same firm that built the Empire State Building also built this..

http://www.archidose.org/Blog/3ParkAve2.jpg

[Vengineer]

Just because you're employing the same firm doesn't mean you'll get the same talent working for you... and just because you have Foster+Partners on the job doesn't mean you'll get Norman Foster.

[BPC]

The same firm that built the Empire State Building also built this..

http://www.archidose.org/Blog/3ParkAve2.jpg


I consider this the ugliest building in all of NYC. The tragedy is that is occupies a prominent hilltop location with no tall buildings nearby. This was a place to build a great building. Instead, we got this monstrosity.

[Alonzo-ny]

Just because you're employing the same firm doesn't mean you'll get the same talent working for you... and just because you have Foster+Partners on the job doesn't mean you'll get Norman Foster.

But if the largest project with the biggest contract in your career comes to your company you put the best guy on it. Id guarantee no one but foster is on this.

[kliq6]

its not as much the construction firm, is really the design. they just build what they are given and if developer says to cut costs they do

[NoyokA]

Second most recent design after Vornado's involvement but before the incorporation of MSG:

http://words.grubbykid.com/images/20060427-penn_station_04.jpg

[ablarc]

Babylon is shown on the boards
... and furthermore it's LATE.

Babylon will arrive later than scheduled.

[BPC]

NY SUN

Developers Mull Uses for Rare Rock Excavated for Tunnels
Land Use

By ANNIE KARNI
Special to the Sun
April 26, 2007


Construction on the Second Avenue subway line is kicking into gear this week, prompting developers, contractors, and architects to consider various uses for the rare rock that will be excavated from Manhattan's East Side. Some say the expensive rock, known as " Manhattan Schist," could be used for the construction of a grand project in the region.

The Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Morningside Heights was built from rock recovered when the no. 1 subway line was excavated in 1904. Ellis Island was also expanded during the 1930s when rock and dirt from quarrying the lettered subway tunnels was used as landfill to expand the island to 32 acres from about five acres. The landfill under Battery Park City was built partly with rock excavated from the former site of the World Trade Center.

"I'm hoping that with all the tunnels we're doing, 10 years from now someone is going to be talking about some nice buildings that came out of this," the president of Capital Construction at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, Mysore Nagaraja, said in an interview. "You're talking about two 22-feet diameter tunnels going almost three miles," Mr. Nagaraja, who keeps a sample of the rock in his office, said. "That's a lot of rock."

His hope, Mr. Nagaraja said, is that a developer would buy the rock from the MTA's contractor, S3 Tunnel Constructors, and use it for construction in New York City.

"We won't know for a couple of months what we have," Mr. Nagaraja said. "If it comes out in a powder form, there's not much you can do. If it comes out in big pieces, that's something."

The first section of the Second Avenue subway line, which would stretch between 63rd and 96th Streets and is expected to open in 2013, marks the first expansion of the subway system in more than 50 years. It raises the long forgotten question of where truckloads of the rare rock could end up.

"Recycling this rock would be a great environmental move," a senior vice president for Tishman Construction Corporation, Richard Kielar, said.

Manhattan Schist, when polished, appears charcoal black, with veins that resemble thick corduroy, according to stone experts. "Developers would be very excited to work with Manhattan Schist if it comes out in a usable form," the vice president of the stone distributor Stonesource, Mark Shedrofsky, said. "It's rich with a lot of depth and a shimmery, almost metallic, veining," Manhattan Schist sells for about $100 a square foot, according to Mr. Shedrofsky. Average granite sells for about $15 a square foot, in comparison.

Developers and architects in the city are making an environmental push to build with materials quarried within 500 miles of the construction site, they said. "If we can work with local materials, that's our preference," a principle for the architecture firm Ehrenkrantz, Eckstut, & Kuhn, Stanton Eckstut, said.

The commercial resale of the rock was not taken into account in the $337 million contract, the project director for Skanksa USA Civil Northeast, Rory Neubauer, said.

[GVNY]

The Moynihan Station renderings look very attractive, but I am less pleased with the two of Pennsylvania Station.

I guess they're alright.

[TREPYE]

^ Those blocks better be space fillers.....or a very crude rendering.

[Vengineer]

Looks like Krull stumbled upon the Hudson Center. I'm surprised those are there.

[NoyokA]

Looks like Krull stumbled upon the Hudson Center. I'm surprised those are there.

Yeah, looks eerily familiar.

[NoyokA]

It also reminds me alot of the One New York Place proposal that was never built, if anyone still remembers that. Only here twins and only the shorter tower will be around that height of 1,000 feet, the taller tower looks to be around the height of the Freedom Tower.

What are the exact heights again?

[Vengineer]

There are no exact heights. "Estimates" (;)) suggest 1360' and 1200'.

[NoyokA]

There are no exact heights. "Estimates" (;)) suggest 1360' and 1250'.

I've always thought midtown could use a WTC.

[londonlawyer]

There are no exact heights. "Estimates" (;)) suggest 1360' and 1200'.

V Eng:

Do you have any estimates on the heights for the Hotel Penn site? I still wish that was not coming down, but its demise is inevitable.

PS: I had asked you about the site on 7th between 33rd and 34th that currently houses Tourneau and something called Foot Action. It's a huge site and is adjacent to 8 Penn Plaza, but I think that it's not owned by Vornado. I hope that MSG owns it and that it will be redeveloped.

[krulltime]

Hmmm... What just happened? Where did all the renderings go?

[NoyokA]

Hmmm... What just happened? Where did all the renderings go?

There are copyright issues with the images. Im waiting to hear back from the source of the renderings.

[Vengineer]

V Eng:

Do you have any estimates on the heights for the Hotel Penn site? I still wish that was not coming down, but its demise is inevitable.

PS: I had asked you about the site on 7th between 33rd and 34th that currently houses Tourneau and something called Foot Action. It's a huge site and is adjacent to 8 Penn Plaza, but I think that it's not owned by Vornado. I hope that MSG owns it and that it will be redeveloped.

I have no clue about the height of hotel penn.

As for the Tourneau site, it is in the scope of work. From what I could decipher, that site will be turned into retail/office. It only had 2 banks of elevators (about a dozen) so its not going to be a significant building.

[londonlawyer]

...
As for the Tourneau site, it is in the scope of work. From what I could decipher, that site will be turned into retail/office. It only had 2 banks of elevators (about a dozen) so its not going to be a significant building.

Thanks. Even if it's 400 to 600 feet, hopefully, it will be beautiful. Foster and Rogers have made many stunning buildings that height, such as Swiss Re and the new Willis tower in London.

I saw on propertyshark that Vornado owns the H&M across the street. Also, some contiguous parcels are now up for sale. I hope that Vornado buys them all and razes the hideous block on the S.E. corner of 34th and 7th.

I read in Crains that the hideous Regency hotel on 34th also will be razed. This area will be beautiful.

[Chrysler New Yorker]

I'm not going to be sued now, am I???

It's like feeding the lions... you just can't stop them from gorging themselves to death!

[NoyokA]

I'm not going to be sued now, am I???

It's like feeding the lions... you just can't stop them from gorging themselves to death!

I was asked by the source to remove the pictures because of copyright issues, until I hear back from the source the images cannot be posted.

[NYguy]

I was asked by the source to remove the pictures because of copyright issues, until I hear back from the source the images cannot be posted.

That's cool, we had our peek. Now, if I hadn't seen them, I'd be pissed.

[NYguy]

It also reminds me alot of the One New York Place proposal that was never built, if anyone still remembers that.

The tower that dare not speak its name...

http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/29449556/original.jpg

Someone's got to use that space eventually...

[Alonzo-ny]

Where was the site for 1NY Place? I remeber this back in my freshman 'skyscraper obsession' years!

[Vengineer]

What was the website in which the Moynihan renders were taken from? Its not against the rules if I go to their site to look at them right?

[NoyokA]

No, but they've already been taken down.

www.encore.us.com

[ramvid01]

Nvm

[NoyokA]

Krull protected himself by removing the images. I didnt remove the images here because I'm an a-hole, I was just as excited as everyone else if not more when I saw them, I did it because I was notified by the source that I wasn't legally allowed to post them. The source was very kind and understanding and I was happy to oblige. For those of us who saw the renderings it was a sneak peak, for those that didn't, it's unfortuante but they're just going to have to wait. Apparently none of us were suppose to see the renderings.

[ZippyTheChimp]

To those concerned about copyright:

You can always post a link to a website that's publicly accessible. An exception would be a site that's password protected, and you make your password available to anyone.

Posting the image (hotlinking) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotlink) is a gray area. If you do post an image, you should always credit the source.

In this case, the error was made by the Encore webmaster. It seems the images were not ready for public viewing.

[NYguy]

Where was the site for 1NY Place? I remeber this back in my freshman 'skyscraper obsession' years!

It's the block where the MTA's Fulton Street transit center is being built. It was to take up most of that block. 90 stories, 1,050 ft. The first tall proposal we got after 9/11, exciting many.

[NYguy]

Krull protected himself by removing the images. I didnt remove the images here because I'm an a-hole, I was just as excited as everyone else if not more when I saw them. Apparently none of us were suppose to see the renderings.

And how does that make you an a-hole? The images weren't supposed to be seen, and yet, there they were. It's not as if you pulled them out of a hat. Everyone makes mistakes, but the mistake wasn't on your part. Maybe from now on, everyone will take a page from Frank Gehry, and not produce any renderings until the towers are actually complete.

[Citytect]

For those of us who missed the images that had to be removed, can someone who did see them please clarify what they were of? Perhaps the depicted Moynihan Station and Paris Hilton in passionate embrace?

[Alonzo-ny]

Was two towers in the penn station area, cant specify exactly which sites, one tower looked like the aformentioned 1 NY place and the other taller looked the same but it twisted. Both were quite tall probably esb size.

[ramvid01]

Was two towers in the penn station area, cant specify exactly which sites, one tower looked like the aformentioned 1 NY place and the other taller looked the same but it twisted. Both were quite tall probably esb size.

Also showed the middle atrium of moynihan station with msg in the foreground. The location of the two towers are where msg currently sits on.

[212]

If 2 Penn Plaza is replaced, the vista down 32nd Street from Herald Square to the new Penn Station entrance, flanked by towers, could be really grand.

[TREPYE]

If 2 Penn Plaza is replaced, the vista down 32nd Street from Herald Square to the new Penn Station entrance, flanked by towers, could be really grand.


If possible it would be great is they threw in 1 Penn Plaza to be replaced, pretty much anything (as long it is the same height and does not block the ESB) would be better than those horrendous POS's.

[NYguy]

If 2 Penn Plaza is replaced, the vista down 32nd Street from Herald Square to the new Penn Station entrance, flanked by towers, could be really grand.


Oh well, forget about that one...


http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601206&sid=aaAUuXRo_JMs&refer=realestate

Vornado Will Build `A Great, Soaring Penn Station'

By David M. Levitt

April 26 (Bloomberg) -- Vornado Realty Trust Chairman Steven Roth said he plans to build a "a great, soaring Penn Station,'' at the rail terminal as part of a 5.5 million square-foot development of new offices and shops in midtown Manhattan.

Vornado and Related Cos., a New York-based developer led by Stephen Ross, plan to turn the Beaux-Arts Farley Post Office building into a new rail station and a new home for Madison Square Garden, Roth wrote in his annual letter to shareholders, filed today with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

"This long-term project has been publicly endorsed by city and state officials, and is now in the approval process,'' Roth wrote. ``The joint venture is working hard on documentation, design, budgets, etc.''

Two Penn Plaza, a 1.5 million square-foot office tower would remain, he said. Madison Square Garden, home of the New York Knicks basketball and New York Rangers hockey teams, now sits atop Penn Station. It would move a block west, to Ninth Avenue.

Roth also said that Vornado has a "huge'' pipeline of development sites.

While sale prices for New York office buildings rose 60 percent in 2006 to an average $638 a square foot, according to Real Capital Analytics, Roth said ``there may be a pause'' in rising prices for commercial real estate, as rents catch up. At least six buildings sold for more than $1,000 a square foot.

Temporary Pause

Roth said that if there's a pause, it's likely to be temporary, ``and then the game is likely to continue.'' His statements were part of his annual ``chairman's letter,'' a freewheeling document in which Roth, who rarely speaks to the press, typically makes personal observations on market trends.

``The surprise in this cycle may well be how fast and how high rents rise,'' he wrote. ``And if I'm wrong, believe you me, in a downturn, our fortress balance sheet will be a monster offensive weapon.''

Roth, 65, took over a New Jersey discount retailer in the late 1970s and transformed it into the second-largest U.S. real estate investment trust. He recently failed in a quest to become the largest REIT by buying Equity Office Properties Trust, which instead went to Blackstone Group LP for $39 billion including assumed debt, in the largest corporate takeover ever.

`Pursuit Costs'

Rents for ``Class A'' office space, the best appointed, best-located offices in the city, jumped 34.8 percent, according to Colliers ABR, a commercial brokerage.

Roth, in the letter, said New York-based Vornado will write off $8.8 million in ``pursuit costs'' for Equity Office in its first-quarter earnings statement, which is due Tuesday before the U.S. stock market opens.

He said he made just one ``slight miscalculation'' in his pursuit of Equity Office: its chairman, Sam Zell, whom he described as a friend, ``wanted to sell, not merge, and he did.... Next deal.''

Vornado is coming off a year in which its funds from operations, a commonly used measure of cash flow that doesn't conform to generally accepted accounting principles, rose 13 percent to $858.7 million.

In another SEC filing today, the company said that Roth received $4.6 million in compensation in 2006. He received a salary of $1 million, plus stock awards worth $3.1 million.

Vornado's second-in-command, company president Michael Fascitelli, received $4.31 million, including $2.97 million in stock.

Roth also received stock options valued at $12.6 million, according to the filing. Under new SEC rules, a portion of an executive's stock options are recognized each year until the option vests.

Vornado owns office buildings mainly in Manhattan and Washington, retail properties across the U.S. and Chicago's Merchandise Mart.

Vornado shares fell 20 cents to $121.50 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The stock has been unchanged year- to-date, trailing the Bloomberg REIT Index, which has gained 4 percent.

To contact the reporter on this story: David M. Levitt in New York at dlevitt@bloomberg.net .

[NYguy]

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601206&sid=aaAUuXRo_JMs&refer=realestate

Vornado Will Build `A Great, Soaring Penn Station'

By David M. Levitt
April 26 (Bloomberg)

-- Vornado Realty Trust Chairman Steven Roth said he plans to build a "a great, soaring Penn Station,'' at the rail terminal as part of a 5.5 million square-foot development of new offices and shops in midtown Manhattan.

"This long-term project has been publicly endorsed by city and state officials, and is now in the approval process,'' Roth wrote. ``The joint venture is working hard on documentation, design, budgets, etc.''

Two Penn Plaza, a 1.5 million square-foot office tower would remain, he said. Madison Square Garden, home of the New York Knicks basketball and New York Rangers hockey teams, now sits atop Penn Station. It would move a block west, to Ninth Avenue.

Daily News editorial...
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/04/30/2007-04-30_the_secret_garden.html

The secret Garden

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/04/30/amd_roth.jpg
Steven Roth

Monday, April 30th 2007
Editorial

Steven Roth is a graduate of DeWitt Clinton High School in the Bronx who rose to become a titan of New York real estate. As chairman of the fabulously successful Vornado Realty Trust, he has grown wealthy and has made a lot of investors extremely happy by buying, selling and building major developments.

On Thursday, Roth discussed Vornado's progress and plans in his annual letter to shareholders. Seeing as how the company's stock price is up by more than 25% over the past year, it was an upbeat report. However, we feel compelled to respond on behalf of New York City taxpayers:

Dear Steve:

We read with interest that your joint venture is looking forward to starting a mega-project that would bring New York a new Madison Square Garden, erect a 90-story tower where the Garden now stands and create "a great, soaring Penn Station." Your plan, you stated, "is now in the approval process."

This was intriguing because, frankly, the public has no idea what you're proposing, let alone what is being approved or by what process. Perhaps you can enlighten. To wit:

The plan entails moving the Garden, owned by Cablevision, into the back of the Farley Post Office, the block-sized landmark that was supposed to have been converted long ago into the Moynihan train station. The concept is terrific, but details are sketchy.

Have you come to terms with Cablevision? And how much of the building would the Garden occupy? Preservationists are concerned it would take the lion's share of the space, leaving less than expected for the grand train station envisioned by the late Sen. Pat Moynihan.

And what have you worked out regarding the fact that Cablevision enjoys a wholly unjustified exemption from paying real estate taxes on the present Garden? Surely your plan would not extend that giveaway to a hugely profitable new home for the Knicks and Rangers?

As for that "great, soaring Penn Station," you're envisioning the creation of a magnificent portal on Eighth Ave. that would be a welcome addition to the cityscape - and markedly enhance the attractiveness of your multibillion-dollar development. Still, it has been reported that you're going to ask the public to subsidize the station entrance to the tune of $1 billion or more. If so, please explain why taxpayers should give you even a dime.

So that there's no misunderstanding, we think your plan could be super for New York. We only want to know what "is now in the approval process," as you put it. Rest assured that we will be asking Gov. Spitzer's economic development chief, Pat Foye, for the same information.

If you like, Steve, you can write us at voicers@nydailynews.com.

Thanks in advance.

[BPC]

Mort Zuckerman, taking baseless potshots at the competition again. Exactly how many train stations has he built?

[kliq6]

Fact is this is a nice article but Vornado takes years to make moves, as well as the point that cablevision still needs that tax break which has not been extended, so dont bet on this anytime soon

[NoyokA]

Daily News editorial...
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/04/30/2007-04-30_the_secret_garden.html

The secret Garden

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/04/30/amd_roth.jpg
Steven Roth

Monday, April 30th 2007
Editorial

Steven Roth is a graduate of DeWitt Clinton High School in the Bronx who rose to become a titan of New York real estate. As chairman of the fabulously successful Vornado Realty Trust, he has grown wealthy and has made a lot of investors extremely happy by buying, selling and building major developments.

On Thursday, Roth discussed Vornado's progress and plans in his annual letter to shareholders. Seeing as how the company's stock price is up by more than 25% over the past year, it was an upbeat report. However, we feel compelled to respond on behalf of New York City taxpayers:

Dear Steve:

We read with interest that your joint venture is looking forward to starting a mega-project that would bring New York a new Madison Square Garden, erect a 90-story tower where the Garden now stands and create "a great, soaring Penn Station." Your plan, you stated, "is now in the approval process."

This was intriguing because, frankly, the public has no idea what you're proposing, let alone what is being approved or by what process. Perhaps you can enlighten. To wit:

The plan entails moving the Garden, owned by Cablevision, into the back of the Farley Post Office, the block-sized landmark that was supposed to have been converted long ago into the Moynihan train station. The concept is terrific, but details are sketchy.

Have you come to terms with Cablevision? And how much of the building would the Garden occupy? Preservationists are concerned it would take the lion's share of the space, leaving less than expected for the grand train station envisioned by the late Sen. Pat Moynihan.

And what have you worked out regarding the fact that Cablevision enjoys a wholly unjustified exemption from paying real estate taxes on the present Garden? Surely your plan would not extend that giveaway to a hugely profitable new home for the Knicks and Rangers?

As for that "great, soaring Penn Station," you're envisioning the creation of a magnificent portal on Eighth Ave. that would be a welcome addition to the cityscape - and markedly enhance the attractiveness of your multibillion-dollar development. Still, it has been reported that you're going to ask the public to subsidize the station entrance to the tune of $1 billion or more. If so, please explain why taxpayers should give you even a dime.

So that there's no misunderstanding, we think your plan could be super for New York. We only want to know what "is now in the approval process," as you put it. Rest assured that we will be asking Gov. Spitzer's economic development chief, Pat Foye, for the same information.

If you like, Steve, you can write us at voicers@nydailynews.com.

Thanks in advance.


Is this a fax or email inquiry to Vornado or a news article? I never know with the Daily Snooze.

[Alonzo-ny]

Its a stupid faux 'letter' on new york's behalf. They could write that information in an intelligent article but nah, why do that?

[NYguy]

Its a stupid faux 'letter' on new york's behalf.

It's an editorial, meaning it's their own, biased opinion. They don't speak for all New York obviously, but they do ask some legitimate questions...


Have you come to terms with Cablevision? And how much of the building would the Garden occupy? Preservationists are concerned it would take the lion's share of the space, leaving less than expected for the grand train station envisioned by the late Sen. Pat Moynihan.

And what have you worked out regarding the fact that Cablevision enjoys a wholly unjustified exemption from paying real estate taxes on the present Garden? Surely your plan would not extend that giveaway to a hugely profitable new home for the Knicks and Rangers?

Those are all questions that have to be answered sooner or later. This thing is moving forward with speed, so expect the sooner rather than later. Either way, this project already has the support of almost everyone involved (city/state). But this is a very public project, with a large public pricetag. It's not going to hurt Vornado or Related to give some answers.

[BPC]

Is this a fax or email inquiry to Vornado or a news article? I never know with the Daily Snooze.


It's Mort Zuckerman, sleazy NY real estate developer and NY Daily News owner, using his perch as "publisher" of that tabloid to harass a competitor in the same business. It's an old routine. He has been doing it non-stop for the past six years with respect to Ground Zero, penning editorial after editorial the sole purpose of which is to slow development at the WTC site, and thereby prevent another of his rivals, Silverstein Properties, from getting ahead. It should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Citytect]

Well, no matter the intention of the editorial, the questions raised are important and need to be answered.

[Eugenious]

Nothing is going to happen here, move along.

[212]

Two Penn Plaza, a 1.5 million square-foot office tower would remain, he said.

Too ugly to live, too big to die.

About the verboten Penn and Moynihan images that were posted briefly here (if comments are allowed) ... the public spaces look impressive and vastly improved, but I wish one of them had a great view down to the trains as the old Penn Station did.

From Wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8a/Penn_Station2.jpg/464px-Penn_Station2.jpg

[jarod213]

Please don't post any more pictures of the late, great Penn; it makes me cry . . .

[antinimby]

Oh, you mean ones like these:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/APG/3045~Penn-Station-New-York-Posters.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/gcnardi/NYC/500/mainwtgroomofPennStation500.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/nycity_old_pnarcade.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/nycity_old_exterior.jpg

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/10/26/nyregion/26penn.large.jpg

[MidtownGuy]

I had mixed feelings about the designs that were briefly posted. The thing that impressed me the least was the glass ceiling, which was in a simple barrel vault, and which I find far less compelling than the groin vault shaped glass ceiling of the original Penn. I'm not saying replicate that. I'm just saying, can we manage something more exciting than a barrel, and less bizzarre than the "potato chip"?

Also, I remember in one rendering seeing an entrance with gigantic plates of glass at odd angles to each other. Breathtaking, but I was puzzled as to how the whole thing was supported. Does anyone else recall that rendering? in the end, I think it would be dumbed-down significantly by the bean-counters. I remember the huge plates of suspended glass originally envisioned for the new downtown station and they were the first thing to be nixed.

When they're ready, they'll show us some fantastic dream renderings that everyone will cream over, and then do the old bait-and-switch when they have everything rolling.

I'm going to cling to my last shred of Penn Station optimism and hope they stun us with a true 21st century jewel,worthy of the pictures in the previous posts.

[Chrysler New Yorker]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/gcnardi/NYC/500/mainwtgroomofPennStation500.jpg


What a complete loss>>> What fu*king idiot decided to tear this beautiful building down? Nothing will ever be near to the elegance of the old Penn Station! :(

[Fabrizio]

They tore this thing down??

[antinimby]

Here's more destruction photos:

http://www.virtualnyctour.com/photos/34AndEmpire/images/PennStation.jpg

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/10/28/nyregion/28penn.l.jpg

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/demo_con.jpg

[antinimby]

http://www.lostmag.com/blog/lostpenn.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/exploring_citr/penn/demolish.jpg

http://www.inthesetimes.com/images/30/08/jane.jpg

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/eaglelarge.jpg

[Alonzo-ny]

those images are like *error does not compute* i mean seeing it been torn apart make NO sense at all, so much it so it makes my head feel funny.

[Vengineer]

It perfectly reflects the true stupidity of mankind.

[James Kovata]

Penn's destruction has to be the 20th Century's worst crime against architecture....and for what? An underground, clausterphobic train station, an arena, and some sub-par office towers. I cannot even begin to imagine what would be the cost to replicate the old Penn today.

Any idea as to what happened with a lot of the architectural ornamentation and statuary?

[BPC]

Read Robert Sullivan's "The Meadowlands." He devotes a chapter of it to his personal hunt for the statuary, rumored to be in a dumping ground in Jersey. I won't say how it ends, because it reads like an entertaining mystery novel.

[ablarc]

All the pieces are numbered, catalogued, and ready for re-assembly ... right?

[londonlawyer]

It perfectly reflects the true stupidity of mankind.


I agree. Unfortunately. NY's self-destructive behavior continues to this day, and greedy SOB's like Harry Schmucklowe raze gems to maximize his own profit. I hate to say it, but when I learned that the 57th St gems will be razed and replaced with a cheap glass box like the one Schmucklowe is building at 510 Madison, I lost hope for NYC and have written it off recently as a lost cause.

Schmucklowe will raze these gems and replace them with a 40 story glass box.

His new tower, which will replace The Drake, should be named, "Schmuck Tower"
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/179/455781094_1e8f646f92_b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/250/455880255_b76095e7dc_b.jpg

[Fabrizio]

Yes. The Penn Station is gone. Long gone. Nearly 45 years ago gone.

Meanwhile back at the ranch.... the destruction continues.

At least back then they had picket lines. Where are those lines today?

[londonlawyer]

Yes. The Penn Station is gone. Long gone. Nearly 45 years ago gone.

Meanwhile back at the ranch.... the destruction continues.

At least back then they had picket lines. Where are those lines today?

People outside of this forum probably have no idea what's going on with the 57th St. townhouses. More significantly, greedy SOB's like Macklowe are intent upon ruining Midtown's architecture, and due to his political connections, he is at liberty to line his greasy, corrupt pockets. Midtown between 42nd and 59th is the worst part of Manhattan (other than 1st, 2nd, 3rd and York) since its glorious, old buildings have largely been razed. I pray that these greedy vultures don't start ruining other areas of Manhattan. However, as we know the Hotel Penn will soon be gone. It makes me sick.

[Eugenious]

New York always has and always will be the city to make a quick buck, there is very little legacy remaining from each successive generation. Everything gets razed be it timeless architecture or not. Private property is more important then history. Such are the times.

Yet garbage that no one cares about nor wants get Landmark designations all the time, there are warehouses and barely noticeable 50 year old buildings that are landmarked, yet gorgeous townhouses and whole streets are ravaged by unscrupulous developers.

[londonlawyer]

New York always has and always will be the city to make a quick buck, there is very little legacy remaining from each successive generation. Everything gets razed be it timeless architecture or not. Private property is more important then history. Such are the times.

Yet garbage that no one cares about nor wants get Landmark designations all the time, there are warehouses and barely noticeable 50 year old buildings that are landmarked, yet gorgeous townhouses and whole streets are ravaged by unscrupulous developers.

It's true. In my old neighborhood, there was a filty tenement on 1st around 65th that a developer wanted to raze. People went nuts because it was an early social housing experiment. They won, and it was landmarked despite being a filthy, run down dump. In the meantime, stunning architecture gets razed due to creeps like Macklowe.

[jarod213]

The Hotel Pennsylvania is being razed? Are you fu*king kidding me???? When is this happening? I really can't take it anymore; we have no charm, we have no character; why wouldn't any tourist want to come here? There is NO history!

[lesterp4]

I agree but the tourists are not the least bit interested in charm and history. All they want to do is shop and eat at red lobster, bubba guimps and chevys. Oh yes, and see Toys R us and MTV.

[clubBR]

Hotel Pennsylvania. Im gonna miss that sight. Why must they tear it down? It goes along with the "Pennsylvania theme" along with Penn Station & Penn Plaza across the street. Middle finger to Vornado

Support for 2600: The Hacker Quarterly

[NYguy]

Hotel Pennsylvania. Im gonna miss that sight. Why must they tear it down? It goes along with the "Pennsylvania theme" along with Penn Station & Penn Plaza across the street. Middle finger to Vornado

Support for 2600: The Hacker Quarterly

Penn Station (the building) has long been gone, and don't even get started on Penn Plaza accross the street. You'll be happy to know that eyesore will remain. As for Vornado, yeah, any company trying to improve the vitality of the city (of course they're in the business to make a profit) deserves a middle finger....Please. In fact, why don't all developers just leave Manhattan as is, let it dy a slow death. At least it will be preserved as is for future historians to disect.

[jarod213]

NYGuy, if you want rabid and uninhibited development, move to China. Why can't we tear down all the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s reject buildings and replace them with huge towers? Instead, we rape the city of character. We can keep the character and continue growth; it's easy. TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN COMPLEX AND PENN PLAZA AND BUILD SEVERAL 100 STORY-TALL TOWERS. You want growth, that'll do it. And we don't have to destroy character.

[NYguy]

NYGuy, if you want rabid and uninhibited development, move to China. Why can't we tear down all the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s reject buildings and replace them with huge towers? Instead, we rape the city of character. We can keep the character and continue growth; it's easy. TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN COMPLEX AND PENN PLAZA AND BUILD SEVERAL 100 STORY-TALL TOWERS. You want growth, that'll do it. And we don't have to destroy character.

Please.

[NYguy]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05082007/news/regionalnews/new_garden_to_grow_fast_regionalnews_tom_topousis. htm

NEW GARDEN TO GROW FAST

By TOM TOPOUSIS
May 8, 2007

A massive project to build a new Penn Station and move Madison Square Garden across Eighth Avenue could get started by year's end, says a state economic development official.

Moynihan Station Development Corp. President Robin Stout's comments to Midtown community leaders last week were the first public confirmation that the Spitzer administration would back the project.

The plan also includes three office towers, on top of or near where the Garden is now located, and the new Moynihan Train Station, on the Farley Post Office's Eighth Avenue side.

Stout said that the first phase, building the new Garden, would take five years and that the final phase could be done by 2017.

[Vengineer]

TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN COMPLEX AND PENN PLAZA AND BUILD SEVERAL 100 STORY-TALL TOWERS.

Yeah that's what they're doing.

And in terms of raping the city of culture, just walk down 7th ave and you'll encounter plenty more lined up row after row. You're crying foul about cutting down a tree in the midst of a forest when realistically cutting down that tree will sprout much more culture than what is currently there.

A little optimism wouldn't be so bad for this forum.

[londonlawyer]

Yeah that's what they're doing.

And in terms of raping the city of culture, just walk down 7th ave and you'll encounter plenty more lined up row after row. You're crying foul about cutting down a tree in the midst of a forest when realistically cutting down that tree will sprout much more culture than what is currently there.

A little optimism wouldn't be so bad for this forum.

V Eng: Have you seen the renderings for the new towers? If so, do they look ok or are they amazing?

[Vengineer]

V Eng: Have you seen the renderings for the new towers? If so, do they look ok or are they amazing?

Only diagrams of section views. Can't really tell if they look ok or amazing I just know they're massive.

[londonlawyer]

Only diagrams of section views. Can't really tell if they look ok or amazing I just know they're massive.

Thanks

[Eugenious]

I've seen the current proposals for the MSG site, including the renderings. They are amazing; the communal space can easily match up to that of the old in grandeur, except redone in a 21st century expression. And, without sacrificing aesthetics, the project includes an enormous podium with quite a bit of retail.

PICTURES????????

[Dynamicdezzy]

Were those the pics that were taken down?

[MikeW]

I would point out that the two biggest tourist destinations in the country are (well probably) Orlando (aka Disneyworld) and Las Vegas.

I have no use for Disney, but I love Vegas. However, I fully admit that neither one has much in the way of charm (well maybe Disney, in a artificial, cloying way). Then again, charm may not count for too much when it comes to tourists.


The Hotel Pennsylvania is being razed? Are you fu*king kidding me???? When is this happening? I really can't take it anymore; we have no charm, we have no character; why wouldn't any tourist want to come here? There is NO history!

[jarod213]

No one has respect for craftsmanship anymore. . . it rarely exists. Instead, you all drool over mindless glass boxes. It's the friggen Hotel Pennsylvania, why is it not a landmark? I think the problem with America is, is that no one has any real taste for aesthetics. The U.S. is ugly, and you're all contempt with that. "Please" my ass.

[ramvid01]

No one has respect for craftsmanship anymore. . . it rarely exists. Instead, you all drool over mindless glass boxes. It's the friggen Hotel Pennsylvania, why is it not a landmark? I think the problem with America is, is that no one has any real taste for aesthetics. The U.S. is ugly, and you're all contempt with that. "Please" my ass.

Taste for aesthetics. Theres is a taste, the problem is capitalism. If you want craftsmanship your gonna have to pay the big bucks, and whos willing to do that? No one, unless the select few of the developers who actually want to spend money. The U.S. may be ugly, but it's not ugly cause of bad taste.

[NYguy]

http://ny.metro.us/metro/local/article/ESDC_chair_gives_updates_on_city_projects/8461.html

ESDC chair gives updates on city projects

by amy zimmer / metro new york
MAY 10, 2007

MIDTOWN. Pat Foye, the Empire State Development Corp’s downstate chairman, who has only been in his position for 129 days, was grilled yesterday at Crain’s New York Business Breakfast forum about several big projects he inherited from the Pataki administration.

On the Javits expansion

The current plan, he said, “provides too little additional exhibit space at too high a cost.” For $1.8 billion, it would only add roughly 300,000 square feet of new revenue-producing space. But Foye said the new plans — which should be announced “shortly” — would remain in the general area of the current proposal, though the city and state are divided over whether it should expand south.


On Moynihan Station

He wouldn’t say Madison Square Garden’s move to Moynihan Station, which would free up space to develop office towers over Penn Station, was a done deal. “Whatever the outcome,” he said, “the value of the [James A. Farley Post Office] as a historical landmark will not succumb to the advertising demands that come with a venue for sports and events. Farley will not become a billboard.”

As for whether MSG gets to keep its subsidies if it moves, he said, “I will leave that up to the city.” But, he added, “One would hope in transactions like that, neither the city or state would be held hostage to private demands.”

He didn’t say when a new station plan would be announced.


On Atlantic Yards

Foye mentioned that ESDC “was on the verge of appointing an ombudsman to act as a liaison between the community, elected officials and various government agencies.”

When asked about the use of eminent domain for the project, “Obviously taking someone’s property without someone’s consent is a serious matter. It should only be used as a last resort, especially with something viewed as a private, not public use.”

There are two eminent domain-related lawsuits against the project, and ESDC intends “to vigorously defend these lawsuits,” Foye said. He doesn’t believe they present an “important obstacle.”

[NYguy]

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0939627020070509

NY: Developers must share cost of new Penn Station

NEW YORK, May 9 (Reuters)

Real estate developers that are expected to profit from the relocation of New York's congested Pennsylvania Station should pay some of the project's huge costs, a co-chairman of the state's development corporation said on Wednesday.

"In a city where taxpayers have seen their pockets depleted by construction overruns that left them on the hook for billions of dollars, we argue that developers who will benefit from the valuable real estate around this transit hub need to help cover those costs," said Patrick Foye, co-chairman of the Empire State Development Corp., according to a copy of a speech delivered at a Crain's New York breakfast.

Later, he told reporters it was premature to estimate how much the developers -- expected to include Vornado Realty Trust (VNO.N: Quote, Profile, Research and The Related Companies -- should contribute.

"They'll be sales taxes, commercial rent (taxes) and income taxes from the persons who work there," he said, listing these levies as potential sources of dollars.

Democratic Gov. Eliot Spitzer inherited the plan to move Penn Station to the nearby Farley Building, in order to develop a much improved transit hub that is to be named in honor of former U.S. Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

New York City has never recovered from the loss of midtown Manhattan's original Pennsylvania Station, torn down decades ago to make way for Madison Square Garden, but the Farley Building has the same majestic appearance.

Foye said he is still reviewing how best to develop the site with shops, office towers, and apartments, but he suggested he likely will propose a single complete plan, noting that former Gov. George Pataki's two-phase approach was twice rejected.

The new Penn Station is just one of the mammoth projects the state and city are readying.

Just west of the Farley Building, for example, the city and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority will soon seek bidders for the mass transit agency's 13-acre western rail yards.

On Wednesday, the Hudson Yards Development Corp. said real estate companies will be offered some 5.7 million square feet of development, with a minimum mix of 20 percent office and 20 percent residential.

The corporation, which leads the city's team, said there will be five acres of public open space, with links to the adjoining 13-acre eastern rail yard site, which also is being opened to development.

The new buildings on the western half will be clumped to the north and south, with the "highest densities" built either on or near 11th Avenue, which splits the site in two, it said.

There will be no official caps on how tall the buildings can be, but they should fall in height toward the west, to preserve Hudson River views, the corporation added.

Work already has started on a $1.8 billion expansion of the nearby Jacob K. Javits Center, the city's main convention hall. Foye promised to soon reveal his improvements for that project; its critics say it costs too much while not adding enough exhibit space or easing truck deliveries.

But Foye faulted a proposal to move the center to Queens, saying it is not a long-term solution because visitors like the current center's location, just a five-minute cab ride from midtown theaters and restaurants.


© Reuters 2007. All rights reserved.

[Bob]

The U.S. is NOT "ugly." Take a mean-spirited swipe at somebody else's girlfriend, if you must. Or better, stick to the architecture as this thread is alleged to concern.

[pianoman11686]

Theres a taste, the problem is capitalism.

I suppose commie blocks and housing projects are the better-looking alternative?

[NewYorkDoc]

There will be no official caps on how tall the buildings can be

This is exciting! Any thoughts?

[ramvid01]

I suppose commie blocks and housing projects are the better-looking alternative?

I will assume that your stating that I am for communism? If that is the case, your completely mistaken. I am only stating that the capitalistic mind set that we are in right now has driven most developers to forget quality for the sake of profit. I for one would wish there was some kind of architectual review in this city, but the curbing of capitalism is not something that I would want.

[jarod213]

I for one would wish there was some kind of architectual review in this city, but the curbing of capitalism is not something that I would want.

Totally agree!

[jarod213]

The non-existent height cap is exciting. . . maybe we'll get something worthy out of this?

[TREPYE]

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0939627020070509

NY: Developers must share cost of new Penn Station

There will be no official caps on how tall the buildings can be, but they should fall in height toward the west, to preserve Hudson River views, the corporation added.

© Reuters 2007. All rights reserved.

This is a great idea.

[pianoman11686]

I will assume that your stating that I am for communism?

Not insinuating, just wondering why you think capitalism's the problem, and what the better alternative might be.

[TREPYE]

Originally Posted by NYguy http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164378#post164378)
http://www.reuters.com/article/bonds...39627020070509 (http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0939627020070509)

NY: Developers must share cost of new Penn Station

There will be no official caps on how tall the buildings can be, but they should fall in height toward the west, to preserve Hudson River views, the corporation added.


This is a great idea.


I regards to this I found this document ( http://www.hydc.org/downloads/pdf/mta_railyards_presentation_2008-05-08.pdf ) in SSP posted by NYguy outlining some of the guidelines for this aspect of the layout:

Height/Setback and Building Articulation/Tower Controls
Goal:

Create building envelopes that establish a
street wall presence consistent with the
adjacent Hudson Yards zoning.

Modulate building scale by requiring
setbacks above maximum base heights.

30th Street should be developed as a “wide
street” by providing more light and air on the
street to balance development permitted on
the southern portion of the rail yard.

Encourage building façade articulations by
permitting appropriate recesses and breaks
in streetwalls to accentuate corners and
architectural features.

Rail yards development should create a
skyline presence. Tower heights should vary,
with the tallest buildings located along 11th
Avenue, and heights decreasing westward
towards the Hudson River.

Tower regulations should be compatible with
those established for the Hudson Yards
Special District along 11th Avenue and
Hudson Blvd.

[londonlawyer]

V Eng is 'da man!

The bases look good, but how do the towers look? How tall are they, and who designed the ones posted?

[TREPYE]

The new Penn Station looks like it was designed by SOM....going down like warm water; lots of transparency, no flavor. :rolleyes: At least Moyihan is still nice.
Can't we just get Calatrava to design it???

[ablarc]

Architecture is dead.

[Fabrizio]

But computer generated renderings rock.

[sfenn1117]

Architecture is dead.

Glad someone said it. Clearly better than what we have now but not even close to something grand. Seeing as it's minimum 5 years from starting construction anyway, let's hope for improvement.

[Vengineer]

Architecture is dead.

Glad to see the optimism. Then why stick around discussing sadness and gloom?

[TREPYE]

What do you mean why?? Because it generates sadness and gloom out of us. That is what this forum is for to express what feelings these designs generate. You posting these pics are greatly appreciated but once again SOM disappoints...Not a good preview of what to come of those supertalls.

[pianoman11686]

God, I missed them again! http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[krulltime]

:( Yeah I missed them too. But seems like ablarc wasnt too happy.

[Fabrizio]

Just IMAGINE if that building didn't have the Farley building as a backdrop.

[ManhattanKnight]

God, I missed them again! http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

Don't be so sad -- bad enough to inspire a Save the Garden movement:

[krulltime]

^ Well atleast you can see a little of the Farley. But yeah I wish you can see it plus more of an open sky. Like that rendering from before that we saw back then. The one that Stern posted. But it does still looks sort of cool.

[londonlawyer]

I care more about what the buildings look like than what the station's interior looks like. I have faith that these towers will be AWESOME!!!

[Alonzo-ny]

ah man i new i missed somethin, is saw vengs name disappear when i was on the forum overview, anyone kind enough to PM for an old friend?

[ramvid01]

ah man i new i missed somethin, is saw vengs name disappear when i was on the forum overview, anyone kind enough to PM for an old friend?

Ditto. I missed it too.

[ManhattanKnight]

You copy your someone's work-product, publish it on a public message board and now want to sue me? It's probably already on Google from your original posting.

[Vengineer]

Yeah thanks alot buddy. I thought most would have the elementary insight to understand the procedures. I guess I was being a fool. There are always the defiant imbeciles who ruin it for the crowd. You can wait ten years on your little armchair to criticize the designers with your negativity. Never again.

[ablarc]

^ Welcome to Senior Memberhood, Vengineer.

[lofter1]

Please don't tell me that the sorry image that was fleetingly posted (and then re-posted for what now appears to be a short time by another member) is what NYC will get at the Penn Station site?

It used to be that corporate interests had some aspiration towards creating spaces that uplifted -- and which could make a person stop in their tracks and think out loud "Damn!".

What I saw showed little hope for anything great -- and perhaps not even anything that could be described as good ...

[Vengineer]

I'm not an architect but I am heavily involved in the design process of some of the major projects in New York City. I joined this forum hoping to share my enthusiasm for these projects with other peers but more and more I find myself discouraged by the utter cynicism many have for the future of this city. Opinions are opinions and I have no right to place mine before others'. However, I feel somewhat compelled to at least try to redirect your skewed disapproval of these 'talentless' and 'bland' architects by sharing alittle bit of what goes on during the long and arduous design process.

Everything starts with a great big concept that everyone would drool to have, or in this forum's case merely nod in approval. These grand concepts from cavernous atriums to slopes and setbacks are then shut down left and right, top to bottom and sometimes even along the z-axis. I too take part in this cosmic rejection process as well, in order to uphold feasibility and correct their understanding of how gravity operates. Let's face it they're architects, not the most technical breed of professionals out there.

The biggest hammer of course comes down from the party who controls the checkbook. Their word is truth and with a motion of their hand the 8-story skylight atriums and massive waterwalls come crashing down. That is, not before the code consultants 'X' out their beautiful creation. New York City has the toughest codes to design upon. Building codes, fire codes, approvals this and approvals that. But mostly, their designs will and must change by the whim of the almighty developer who is financing the millions and sometimes billions of dollars associated with building in New York. What's usually left is a big glass box that most of you detest and abhor.

So then like most normal humans, these architects begin to learn and adapt, knowing that a design which will push the limits of innovation will be slammed by developers and owners or simply never see the light of day. So they start out with a box to win the bidding and stay with a box to stay in contract, asking themselves, why waste our time with the nonsense. The most prolific of these adaptive creatures are, I'm sure you're all aware, the firm that rhymes with POM, the overpriced juice I'll never buy. They are prolific for a good reason, they have mastered the "art" of building in New York City. They've reasoned out the notion quite well. You can have all the expressive ambitions you want, what good is it if no one will finance it. Many are quite aware of the boxy-nature of Manhattan, and hate it. Many have studied and are in love with art deco architecture like most of you are and some have even left the city out of frustration with the inability to release their passion (or with high rent prices, architects don't make alot money). I remember this one guy once told me: "an architect in nyc is a misnomer".

So can you really blame a puppet for putting on a crappy show? If you can't blame the designers then you can blame the financiers right?. With the cost of construction in Manhattan, every building project is a fine line between profitability and wasted assets. Whenever I see the slants on 1 Bryant Park, I can't help but wonder how many millions Durst had to give up on valuable top level floor space for increasing the sex appeal of his building. So the owners and developers are just trying to run a profitable business by constructing boxes. Are they really to blame? Maybe. Perhaps the blame lies on the very ideology that forces us to pay $2500/mo for a 15 by 15 foot studio and three dollars for a hot dog. Perhaps then capitalism should be blamed, or maybe even those terrorists for raising oil prices which raises the cost of shipping steel members which in turn forces developers to nix out a planned garden on the roof. Whoever you decide to lay your blame on for causing this dreadful gloom to fall over New York City (well not really, because 99.97% of new yorkers are quite happy and really don't stress over not having slants and set backs on buildings), I would give some consideration before naming people like Childs, Kondylis and Kaufmann (well maybe not him, his stuff's horrid) on your oh-so-influential criticisms. I'm sure they have much better taste than most armchair critics do anyway with an added wisdom of how things really go down in the city of New York.

As for myself, I think its time for me to depart this forum. It'll be more constructive for my motivation. I enjoyed the construction photos so maybe I'll check back once in awhile but I'll be sure to skip the commentaries. Thank you all and sorry for anyone I may have offended with this article. Opinions are opinions.

[pianoman11686]

Vengineer: I think something needed to be said. And I applaud you for having the courage to say it all. I for one have enjoyed your presence on this forum (even though I've missed a few of your sneak peeks), and I hope you continue to visit us at least once in a while, if not more often.

[sfenn1117]

You're right, basically none of us know personally how these projects are grinded out by so many hands. Manhattan is probably the most expensive place in the world to build. It's disheartening sometimes to see incredible designs in Dubai, but we have to remember the dirt cheap labor they use and the clean slate they are building on.

It's just been a long time since NY built something that screams innovation and instant landmark. Whatever possible proposals that have been introduced to fill that niche have not been built (80 South Street most notably). The Freedom Tower will likely be that building, because of the notoriety and sheer size of the building. And I would say most of us are fine with that and have warmed up to the design. I know I have, and would take it over the Chicago Spire anyday.

I think we all absolutely covet your presence on the board. Every so often we get individuals that are intensely involved with projects, who give us exclusive information. You, vengineer, are probably the most coveted of these individuals. You provide sneak peeks, and if we're browsing at the right time, we're lucky; if not, there's always next time.

Your departure from the board would be disheartening, and I hope you stick around.

[Fabrizio]

Aside from the Guggenheim, would someone please point out a building in NYC built between the years of 1950 and 1975 that was not basically a box?

And aside from the classic boxes like the Seagrams, Lever House, CBS, the Ford Foundation.... name a few that anyone could be passionate about.

Yes it's true, at the moment, architecture in NYC is worse that it's ever been... AND at the same time, it's better than it's been in decades.

We've got the Sam Chang/Kaufman/Macklowe crap and we've also got Frank Gehry, Herzog & de Meuron, Jean Nouvel, Foster , Richard Meir, Renzo Piano, and others.

We've got beautiful stuff being torn down, recladded, butchered up.... and at the same time, exquisite restorations and re-use.

C'mon Vengineer... you really read the forum? The armchair critics here also regularly PRAISE new stuff being built. Wanna see the threads? Why are you leaving that out?

And what's the difference between standing around a water cooler and trashing the new Penn Station, the new Buick or the new movie that opened last night? It's done all the time.

It's kind of hard to believe that someone "heavily involved in the design process of some of the major projects in New York City.".... has skin sooooo thin that a tiny group commenters on a forum plays havoc with his self-esteem.


http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=90520201&size=l


---

[Alonzo-ny]

Your departure from the board would be disheartening, and I hope you stick around.

I agree with this statement, i know it gets a bit depressing around here and i wish also it could stop, the negativity does spilll over from SOM and kaufman into projects that actually do have potential to be great, but i think your post for post you give this forum a great deal and i hope you stick around for those of us who believe we can still build great projects

[Dynamicdezzy]

Aside from the Guggenheim, would someone please point out a building in NYC built between the years of 1950 and 1975 that was not basically a box?

And aside from the classic boxes like the Seagrams, Lever House, CBS, the Ford Foundation.... name a few that anyone could be passionate about.

Yes it's true, at the moment, architecture in NYC is worse that it's ever been... AND better than it's been in decades.

We've got the Sam Chang/Kaufman/Macklowe crap and we've also got Frank Gehry, Herzog & de Meuron, Jean Nouvel, Foster , Richard Meir, Renzo Piano, and others.

We've got beautiful stuff being torn down, recladded, butchered up.... and at the same time, exquisite restorations and re-use.

C'mon Vengineer... you really read the forum? The armchair critics here also regularly PRAISE new stuff being built. Wanna see the threads? Why are you leaving that out?

And what's the difference between standing around a water cooler and trashing the new Penn Station, the new Buick or the new movie that opened last night? It's done all the time.

It's kind of hard to believe that someone "heavily involved in the design process of some of the major projects in New York City.".... has skin sooooo thin that a tiny group commenters on a forum plays havoc with his self-esteem.


http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=90520201&size=l


---



Because its a little bit more personal. When all the projects you work hard on constantly get criticized for "being the worst f*ckin design," it gets very irritating. Its like working on a project that your boss tells you "it can always be better" but you won't increase my budget!

Vengineer, if you leave, I'm sorry to hear that. But I suggest you stick around. If none of us cared, we wouldn't jump to this thread every time there's a new post......especially from you! And if no one appreciates the effort you put in....well....."f*ck 'em." What more can I say?

[SilentPandaesq]

Vengineer - dude, you should stick around. You are one of the few posters that I actually would read. You provided some of the best info out there. Thanks.

Now all I have to look forward to is every residential forum turning into a discussion about what type of counter top people are installing. ["condo227: did you get steel or concrete bla bla bla...I have 1 million dollars...bla bla bla"]

Maybe you'll post at ssp or ssc...

[212]

Vengineer, you write eloquently on why those who build in NYC are forced to reduce their ambitions.

I assume that you've been posting here because you and your associates want *higher* standards in design, and you know that this forum is one of those places where pressure can build for better work. (Better work, for example, at a site that the lead architect has described as the world's greatest building project.)

Well, you've done us a great service in your time here. I wish I'd seen your most recent post -- hell, I could use an RSS feed of just your info. Hope you'll continue here, and that you won't let a bit of overenthusiasm for spreading your renderings around get to you.

[Fabrizio]

A Random Sampler:

15CPW: Praised

100 11th: mixed but lot's of praise

NYTimes Tower: mixed... now largely praised.

40 Mercer: praised

290 Mulberry: praised

Beekman Street Tower (Gehry): some reservations but lots of praise

101 Warren Street: mixed but praised

Hearst Tower: praised

40 Bond: praised

400 Park Avenue South: praised

InterActiveCorp (Gehry on the Hudson): praised

1 York Tribeca : praised

25 Bond: praised

[krulltime]

:( Vengineer what happened? Did some forumers get under your skin with some remarks? Please let me say sorry for that. Maybe now you can come back! Don't leave us! You have been a very good informative forumer for all of us! Please I beg you not to leave us! Yeah I know your stuff was critisize. But that is what people do here. So don't take it too personal. See other projects. But your type of work and your inside information is totally amazing. :) Nothing to critisize about that.

[pianoman11686]

And what's the difference between standing around a water cooler and trashing the new Penn Station, the new Buick or the new movie that opened last night? It's done all the time.

In a way, they all have the same dynamic in common: artistic ambitions being sacrificed to budget pressures and fiscal realities. The difference is, I've never heard about it directly from automotive designers or movie directors. On this site, we hear from first-handers quite often. Part of what makes it special.


It's kind of hard to believe that someone "heavily involved in the design process of some of the major projects in New York City.".... has skin sooooo thin that a tiny group commenters on a forum plays havoc with his self-esteem.

I read it differently. It's not so much about self-esteem, because Vengineer was speaking on behalf of his entire profession. I think it's more a reaction to unexplained negativity - something you see a lot of on the forum and very little of elsewhere. Other people have made observations on this too.

[BPC]

A Random Sampler:

...

NYTimes Tower: mixed... now largely praised.




Really??? I pass by the building daily, and I must say that, other than the Marriott Marquis, it is really the most unsightly building in all of the Times Square area -- a prime example of what you get when you let your architectural critic pick your HQ design.

[TREPYE]

It's kind of hard to believe that someone "heavily involved in the design process of some of the major projects in New York City.".... has skin sooooo thin that a tiny group commenters on a forum plays havoc with his self-esteem.

---

Agreed.

[BPC]

I would rather Vengineer stay than go. However, if the choice is between biting our tongues on architectural design issues so as not to upset the man, versus the freedom of speech to criticize any and all designs, I would opt for the latter.

[Ninjahedge]

Yeah that's what they're doing.

And in terms of raping the city of culture, just walk down 7th ave and you'll encounter plenty more lined up row after row. You're crying foul about cutting down a tree in the midst of a forest when realistically cutting down that tree will sprout much more culture than what is currently there.

A little optimism wouldn't be so bad for this forum.


Although I am sorry to hear you are going, I also have to comment here as well.

I think just about anything going up there would e an improvement over what is there now. For other people to say that it will somehow rob the city of something is rediculous.

That does not mean that I approve of the economical "glass boxes" that are going up all over.

I know why they are going up. I am an engineer myself, and I am a bit dissapointed that so few people realize the basics in design that would allow them todo some different things with their structures that would still be fiscally feasable.

But we still get owners that want waterfalls and architects that want open atriums until they see how much steel and concrete it would take to accomplish it, then the wallet takes over and reduces it back down from an expensive expresso back to a decent, but ordinary cup of joe.

Veng, do not take it the wrong way. Many here like development and like seeing things go up around the city. It just gets hard when you see the same thing again and again.

I know how you feel when you say that you may have worked on this and that and to hear criticism, but at least you are getting attension. Previously I was working on school buildings, offices and home depots. Places people have never heard of or seen.

I had very little pride in what I did. It gets hard.

But it is also hard, as I have said, to have something that people can actually see and hear all of their criticism.....

I hope you have not gotten too burnt out from the negativity and decide to come back for a few posts here and there. If not, we might end up running into ech other one of these days.

Until then! Have a good one!

[TonyO]

As for myself, I think its time for me to depart this forum. It'll be more constructive for my motivation. I enjoyed the construction photos so maybe I'll check back once in awhile but I'll be sure to skip the commentaries. Thank you all and sorry for anyone I may have offended with this article. Opinions are opinions.

I hope you change your mind. Don't let the incessant whining and pompousness here get you down. With regard to anything new or a change in the status quo, there will be any number of people who dislike it. Of those there are the ones who use their contrarianism as their identity. Just ignore them.

Your posts are informative and are not fluff or solely opinions usually. That's always a plus. Stick around, there are too many exciting things going on in the city.

[Citytect]

Can we get the thread back onto the topic of Moynihan/Penn Station, please?

[joekinde]

This is a very intriguing project, but I have two questions that no politician or editorialists addresses. Perhaps people on the forum could. Obviously, the current Penn Station is terrible, but I don't see how a new one improves the situation. Here are my 2 issues:

1. Subway access -- The current Penn Station is nestled between 2 vital subway lines, and one block away from another 2 lines. The A/C/E provides access to the East side, and the 1/2/3 gives access to the West side. The new Penn Station would have access to 1 subway line, and be within one block of another 1 line. Essentially, half the access, and no direct access to the north West side.

2. Traffic - NJT recently invested $140 million to revamp their portion of the terminal - will this investment go to waste? Also, LIRR will (at some point) be redirected to GCS. Given the reduced traffic, and the investment already made, why do we need a new station?

I understand the viewpoint that we should have a beautiful station, but other projects, such as another Hudson tunnel, 2nd avenue line, etc seem far more beneficial.

[ZippyTheChimp]

1. Subway access -- The current Penn Station is nestled between 2 vital subway lines, and one block away from another 2 lines. The A/C/E provides access to the East side, and the 1/2/3 gives access to the West side. The new Penn Station would have access to 1 subway line, and be within one block of another 1 line.
Are you talking about the Farley portion of the station? The project will include the present Penn Station.

The biggest driving factor in what is referred to as "plan B" is the release of air rights over MSG.

[ASchwarz]

Joekinde, the existing Penn Station will continue to function.

The "New Penn Station" is really a dramatic above-ground expansion of the existing station. The current underground station runs from Seventh to Ninth Avenues. The expanded station will have a similar footprint, but will have two dramatic above ground spaces: the Moynihan (post office) portion to the west and the Penn Plaza (current MSG) portion to the east.

Therefore, there will be no loss of subway accessibility.

The NJ Transit expansion in the current station is separate from and compatible with the above-ground expansion.

The LIRR is not leaving Penn. They are just adding service to Grand Central. Similarly, there are plans for Metro North at Penn.

In addition to the planned NJ Transit expansion projects in the existing Penn, there will eventually be a large new station expansion underneath 34th Street. It will serve dramatically expanded NJ Transit routes once the new tunnel opens. This station will be connected to Penn and will serve both the existing tunnel and the new tunnel.

[NYguy]

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2007/04/26/0001040765-07-000009/Section7.asp

VORNADO REALTY LP
Form:8-K Filing Date:4/26/2007

To Our Shareholders

Development/Redevelopment


Ground-up development, redevelopment and repositioning are essential and
differentiating skills of our business. Our pipeline is huge and runs the gamut
from the multi-billion dollar Penn Plaza district transformation (Farley/Moynihan Station/Madison Square Garden relocation/Penn Station/ Hotel Pennsylvania) to District of Columbia new-builds to the Bergen and Springfield mall mega fixer-uppers to dozens of other projects, see Appendix III for project-by-project detail.


Farley Update

We and our partner, the Related Companies, have been designated
developer to convert the Farley Post Office Building, which occupies the super
block between 31st and 33rd Streets from 8th to 9th Avenues, to the Moynihan Train Station. This project has been expanded to incorporate the adjacent super block to the east and will now involve relocating Madison Square Garden to the 9th Avenue side of Farley (to be developed and owned by MSG), permitting us to develop on the old Madison Square Garden site a great, soaring Penn Station, 5.5 million square feet of mixed-use new-builds, and incorporating our existing 1.5 million square foot Two Penn Plaza into a 7 million square foot complex. This long-term project has been publicly endorsed by City and State officials and is now in the approval process.

The joint venture is working hard on documentation, design, budgets, etc. A giant step forward was taken on March 30, 2007 when New York's Empire State Development Corporation completed the acquisition of the Farley building from the United States Postal Service. Vornado assets surround this project-One Penn Plaza, Two Penn Plaza, 11 Penn Plaza, Hotel Pennsylvania and various retail properties. As with all development projects, there may be significant scope changes and there can be no assurance that this project will commence, or if commenced, be completed on schedule or within budget.

[BrooklynRider]

...As for myself, I think its time for me to depart this forum. It'll be more constructive for my motivation. I enjoyed the construction photos so maybe I'll check back once in awhile but I'll be sure to skip the commentaries. Thank you all and sorry for anyone I may have offended with this article. Opinions are opinions.

I hope you do reconsider. You wrote an excellent and illuminating essay for the forum. We all have to stake out some territory. You did it quite well and kept it relevant and avoided insults and fingerpointing. It can be challenging to post here, but you have the tools to make the contrary argument. Would you rather be in an echo box?

C'mon VEngineer, stick around. I think we all value your knowledge - you offer insights we don't necessarily have expressed here too often.

[Fahzee]

from Todays NY Post - a pessimistic take on the Farley plans.....

TRAIN 'WRECK' By TOM TOPOUSIS



June 4, 2007 -- Negotiations over turning the Farley Post Office into a train station and a new home for Madison Square Garden are hurtling down the fast track, prompting concerns by preservationists that the historic building could be overwhelmed by the arena. "We don't want the Garden swallowing the station at Farley," said Peg Breen of the Landmarks Conservancy. "We want a real, well-designed train station there."
Breen blasted plans that would remove the U.S. Postal Service's remaining retail unit at Farley and use the antique postal windows for Garden ticket sales.
The plans, Breen said, also call for replacing a solid wall separating the eastern and western sides of the massive post office with a glass wall so that anyone entering the train station from Eighth Avenue would get an unobstructed view of the Garden on the Ninth Avenue side.

"They want to turn the train station into the forecourt of the Garden," Breen said, predicting that the proposed design would subvert the idea of using Farley - originally designed as a companion piece to the old Penn Station - to reclaim some of the history that was lost when that station was demolished in the 1960s.

Pat Foye, chairman of the Empire State Development Corp., recently tried to allay fears among preservationists, insisting that the state would not allow the historic Eighth Avenue entrance to the building to become a billboard for the Garden.
The new station is to be named for the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

[Bob]

A fresh set of Twin Towers would be perfect for this site.

[londonlawyer]

Developers To Detail $14B Plans Around Penn Station
By ELIOT BROWN
Special to the Sun
June 14, 2007


A plan for building a set of towering skyscrapers, two grandlyscaled train halls, and a new Madison Square Garden around the existing Pennsylvania Station are rapidly advancing, and the state hopes to begin the public review process for the project, known as Moynihan Station, in the next few weeks.

The developers' revised designs, which are said to include a pair of towers taller than the Empire State Building to be built on the current site of Madison Square Garden, could swiftly transform Midtown South into a thriving epicenter of commercial activity centered around one of the largest transit hubs in the country.

The proposals, which could cost more than $14 billion including the private development, are being shown to elected officials and community groups by a joint development team, Vornado Realty

Trust and the Related Companies.

A spokesman for New York's Empire State Development Corporation said the state has yet to complete negotiations about the complex development rights and possible public subsidies for the renovation of Penn Station. Developers say they hope to start construction in 2008 after the sometimes lengthy process of public approval is completed.

The project takes its name from the late Senator Moynihan, who favored the concept of transforming part of the Corinthiancolumned Farley Post Office building, which sits across Eighth Avenue from Madison Square Garden, into a train station reminiscent of the original Penn Station. It has been under consideration for at least 15 years and faced numerous financial and political obstacles.

While the developers had publicly discussed their vision for the comprehensive plan about a year ago, the concept is now refined, more specific, and closer to reality, people familiar with the plans said, and come after a spider web of discussions among the numerous stakeholders that has gone on for months.

People familiar with the designs say they call for a complex containing 5.5 million square feet built on what is now Madison Square Garden. Primarily office buildings, it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet. Another tower, to be built along Seventh Avenue near One Penn Plaza, would utilize 2 million square feet of developable air rights transferred from the Farley Post Office site.

Under the plans, the existing Pennsylvania Station would be reconfigured to allow natural light into the train hall, which is now buried under low ceilings.

"The whole place will be flooded with daylight," the president of the developers' Moynihan Station Venture team, Vishaan Chakrabarti, said. He called it "a dramatically nicer space that, again, is larger than the main room at Grand Central."

Given its scale, the project could be extraordinarily lucrative for the developers. Vornado has a significant number of other holdings in the area that would presumably skyrocket in value. The magnitude of the project also makes it risky, the developers say, especially since the most lucrative part of the complex — the private towers in the place on the current Garden site — could not be completed until near the end of the project, which could take up to 10 years.

"If you think about it, the place where we make any money is the towers that get built last — it's an extraordinary risk," Mr. Chakrabarti said.

Historic preservation groups, including the Municipal Art Society and the Landmarks Conservancy, have expressed concerns that the main hall in the Farley building would effectively be turned into an entrance for a new sports arena; they took issue with the possibility of using the post office's original sales windows as ticket booths for events.

The developers say the rebuilt Madison Square Garden acts as a critical component for that space.

"It certainly moves the center of gravity of Midtown to the south and the west, and it effectively expands the Midtown central business district with a significant new anchor," the chief executive officer of the Partnership for New York City, Kathryn Wylde, said.

[TomAuch]

No way this proposal will get built. Other than the FT and the new 2 WTC, I don't see anything over 1,000-1,100 feet getting built any time soon.

[macreator]

This is fantastic news. While I'm always wary of "spires" contributing to the height of a tower, let's say worse case that the spires contribute 300 feet to the 1,400 foot height of the towers, that would still place the rooflines of the towers at at least 1,100 feet. At this rate NYC could have a dozen towers over 1,000 feet within a decade.

[TomAuch]

This is fantastic news. While I'm always wary of "spires" contributing to the height of a tower, let's say worse case that the spires contribute 300 feet to the 1,400 foot height of the towers, that would still place the rooflines of the towers at at least 1,100 feet. At this rate NYC could have a dozen towers over 1,000 feet within a decade.

The good news about having more supertalls is that it will be harder to make the "it's a terror target" argument, because 1,000-1,100 feet will become the new "average" for height. Of course, I don't want just ANY design to be used for a thousand-footer. We don't need every tall building looking like Trump World Tower.

[Derek2k3]

it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet.

Though most of us have already known this, reading this in an article just sounds amazing.

[antinimby]

If these towers and the new station look anything like what we saw in those teaser renderings that was leaked out a couple of months here and quickly retracted, then I am not impressed.

[ablarc]

...It certainly moves the center of gravity of Midtown to the south and the west, and it effectively expands the Midtown central business district with a significant new anchor...
Plenty of pressure to redevelop the Garment District.

[NYguy]

No way this proposal will get built. Other than the FT and the new 2 WTC, I don't see anything over 1,000-1,100 feet getting built any time soon.

And why is that???

[NYguy]

If these towers and the new station look anything like what we saw in those teaser renderings that was leaked out a couple of months here and quickly retracted, then I am not impressed.

It won't be those teaser renderings...


People familiar with the designs say they call for a complex containing 5.5 million square feet built on what is now Madison Square Garden. Primarily office buildings, it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet

We didn't get that...

[Eugenious]

mwahahaha

"....taller than the Empire State Building..."

mwahahahahahaahahah

Do they KNOW how much it cost to build FT?

MWHAHAAHAHAHA

[londonlawyer]

Though most of us have already known this, reading this in an article just sounds amazing.

I agree!

[pianoman11686]

If these towers and the new station look anything like what we saw in those teaser renderings that was leaked out a couple of months here and quickly retracted, then I am not impressed.

What towers? All I saw was renderings of the new station. And while it's no masterpiece, still:


"The whole place will be flooded with daylight," the president of the developers' Moynihan Station Venture team, Vishaan Chakrabarti, said. He called it "a dramatically nicer space that, again, is larger than the main room at Grand Central."

The scale alone, along with the opening of the station's netherregions to natural light, will go a long way toward restoring some sense of respectability to Penn. Will it be as majestic as the old one? No, but I'll take it. Between this, Grand Central, and Calatrava's downtown station, New York will have 3 high-quality train terminals, and that ain't bad. Certainly better than the one we have now.

Now, let's get on with building those towers.

[TonyO]

What towers? All I saw was renderings of the new station. And while it's no masterpiece, still:

Two supertowers in this area will make midtown south look phenomenal. Hopefully their heights won't be all in their spires.




The scale alone, along with the opening of the station's netherregions to natural light, will go a long way toward restoring some sense of respectability to Penn. Will it be as majestic as the old one? No, but I'll take it. Between this, Grand Central, and Calatrava's downtown station, New York will have 3 high-quality train terminals, and that ain't bad. Certainly better than the one we have now.

Now, let's get on with building those towers.

Yes, Penn will not be a hideous cave anymore. Plus with 2 adjacent train stations (potentially another under Macy's), Calatrava's, and GC of course - all the more to confuse tourists.

[londonlawyer]

I hope that once this area takes off, the horrible cluster of ten, high rise brick projects between 8th and 9th in the 20's are razed.

[lofter1]

LL: How many times does it have to be said --

Those ^^^ are not "projects", but privately owned housing built by union workers many years ago.

[londonlawyer]

LL: How many times does it have to be said --

Those ^^^ are not "projects", but privately owned housing built by union workers many years ago.

I know, but they look like projects.

[BigMac]

it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet..In the age of the Burj Dubai, many would say it is about time.

[MidtownGuy]

But will they be substantial, attractive spires, or a couple of 500' toothpicks tacked on a flat top? People can say what they want about the buildings going up in Dubai, but one thing I like is that the majority of them do something interesting where they meet the sky. I hope these two new towers have worthy crowns.

[JMGarcia]

Well, if ever there was a good place to put the huge number of workers that 2 1400 foot towers would hold its on top of Penn St. The transportation is the best the city has to offer.

[macreator]

But will they be substantial, attractive spires, or a couple of 500' toothpicks tacked on a flat top? People can say what they want about the buildings going up in Dubai, but one thing I like is that the majority of them do something interesting where they meet the sky. I hope these two new towers have worthy crowns.

That's a huge worry for me. As much as I want 1 World Trade Center to get built already, I still loath that toothpick of a spire stuck on the top. If we really want to reach 1,776 feet, then let's build to 1,776 feet.

[antinimby]

What towers? All I saw was renderings of the new station.You must've missed those. Anyway, all I saw was two somewhat boxy towers with a few cuts and slashes here and there.

It was not very exciting at all, at least to me. Oh, and the tops were flat so the spires might be tacked on like the FT's.

The station was just as disappointing, just lots of glass but little in the way of artistic design.

Like NYguy said, I'm hoping those weren't the latest plans.

[Deimos]

If the city provides unlimited FAR to the project, wouldn't it be safe to assume that the buildings will be more substantial? Spires are used to raise the total height of the building for marketing purposes when there isn't enough of FAR to build any taller afterall. If they're given unlimited, I'd like to think that the sky's the limit on what's possible (I think the pun was intended).

[londonlawyer]

A guy sitting behind me on Metro North tonight was talking about this project. He must work for Vornado because he pulled out a brochure and was showing someone. Sadly, the train was too crowded for me to turn around and ask to see it. I overheard him confirming the Sun's article re tall towers which he described as twins.

At any rate, overhearing this conversation reinforced that this project is for real. I believe that it will really move forward soon.

[212]

Plenty of pressure to redevelop the Garment District.


Great news about Penn Station.

We'd better landmark the surrounding area like crazy before the good stuff gets torn down.
(This is my home ... I promise to take some pix in the next few weeks.)

If it was up to me, I'd preserve anything above eight stories that was built before 1950, and uncork all height limits on the remaining land. Build high. YIMBY.