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April 15th, 2003, 09:09 PM
The MTA has posted some more info on the Fulton St. Transit Center plans here:


April 15th, 2003, 10:00 PM
And I suppose this is a generic version of the Grand Central of Lower Manhattan.

April 15th, 2003, 10:12 PM
This is for the Fulton and B'way station as opposed to the "Downtown Grand Central" at the WTC site. Can't quite figure out why they both have to be so grand. I say let the developer pay for underground improvements in exchange for building a tower on the corner of Fulton and B'wy. That way the public money can be focused on the Day St. connection and Libeskind's transit center.

April 15th, 2003, 10:17 PM
And it's pathetic to call any kind of subway station, no matter how many transfer points it has, a "Grand Central." *Really pathetic.

If people keep doing that, I'm going to start calling my one bedroom apartment a "super-luxury duplex penthouse."

April 16th, 2003, 08:45 AM
Anyone ever use that transfer center at the Fulton St. station? *I used to use it everyday, and it was horrible. *The long, maze like walks, the heat....those renderings look 10 times better than the mess that is there now...

April 16th, 2003, 09:21 AM
Quote: from NYguy on 8:45 am on April 16, 2003
Anyone ever use that transfer center at the Fulton St. station? *I used to use it everyday, and it was horrible. *The long, maze like walks, the heat....those renderings look 10 times better than the mess that is there now...

EXACTLY.... *There is a very strong argument for a station like this, especially as business leaders are seriously questioning the city's commitment to move things along. *The present station is a mess with entrances mid-block and seemingly disguised as storefronts. *Insignificant me gives it a glowing endorsement.

April 16th, 2003, 10:53 AM
I'm impressed by the simplicity of design.

April 16th, 2003, 11:22 AM
I agree. Functional, straightforward design. Good visability from the street. It's exactly right to fix the mess that's there now.

No need for this station to be grand.

April 16th, 2003, 02:02 PM
The MTA should add some excitement to the transit center. *It looks too dull from the renderings.

April 16th, 2003, 02:20 PM
I don't see any newstands or the like. *They should plan for that instead of making it an afterthought. *It looks like they have accomodated the possibility of a tower on top of it (there are no skylights that I can see, and those interior columns are pretty robust for a one-story building -- I could be wrong), which is encouraging. *Let's build this already!

April 16th, 2003, 02:26 PM
The MTA link JM provided has info on a scoping report meeting to be held on Tues, April 29, 6-9PM at the Customs House. Open to the public.

April 16th, 2003, 02:32 PM


April 16th, 2003, 02:37 PM
Aseptic. This better be indicative in the loosest sense. That it will almost certainly be an improvement anyway is no excuse. New Yorkers should not settle for functionalist public spaces - their city deserves better.

April 16th, 2003, 04:33 PM
This looks like an airport.

April 16th, 2003, 04:44 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about newstands not being in the rendering. *Of course there will be newstands and other vendors everywhere, but they're not actually part of the building.

These renderings are promising though, because you can actually see where it is you are headed. *Transferring trains at this station is like an obstacle course, going up one minute, down the next. *Just when you think you reach the train, there's another ramp or staircase to climb....



April 16th, 2003, 11:28 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to do something like this in Times Square... I've always had this fantasy of the first few stories of 1 Times Square hollowed out and transformed into a flagship subway station....

April 17th, 2003, 10:05 AM
Great layout......the rendering capabilities make an early conception look too realistic, though, I'd think the sterility comes from lack of details. In addition to the missing newstands, no artwork is shown and that ought to be there as well, hopefully. Subway musicians too!

Then add a layer of grime, a few rats, and a stagnant puddle of urine.....

May 11th, 2003, 03:50 PM
Item from A Downtown Express article on the MTA public meeting at the Customs House:

The only other main complaint, besides the preservationists, came from those who wanted the project to be even more ambitious than planned. A few speakers, including a representative of Assemblyman Sheldon Silver, asked that the new station extend all the way to Water St. so that it may meet up with a future Second Avenue subway line.

June 7th, 2003, 04:51 PM
There is extensive information and pictures in the .pdf files at the bottom of this page about a number of transportation strategies. The commute times to downtown from different areas is especially interesting.


June 7th, 2003, 07:45 PM
"Lower Manhattan Transit Complex
The complex will consist of a new PATH terminal on the World Trade Center site and a new Fulton Street Transit Center at Broadway and Fulton, connected by an underground concourse. This grand point of arrival will provide easily navigable connections among numerous transit services, and reaffirm Lower Manhattan's preeminence as an attractive place to live, work and visit. It will also provide lucrative opportunities for retailers and restaurants and will stimulate new business to locate in and/or near the stations. The estimated cost of the PATH terminal is $1.7 to $2 billion and it is phased for completion over 3 to 6 years; the estimated cost and schedule of the Fulton Street Transit Center is $750 million and 3-4 years."

This sounds like ONE transit center to me...which I always had interpreted to be the case. *The "downtown Grand Central" was what they sold to the public.

However, the sketches of the "Fulton transfer center" certainly seem less grand than the original sketches of the "Downtown Grand Terminal". *So which is it, two major stations, or one?

(Edited by tonyo at 7:46 pm on June 7, 2003)

June 8th, 2003, 03:17 AM
The plans are for a terminal at the WTC for the Path, maybe links to the airports, etc. The Fulton Station will be on Fulton St. and will be for subway lines to connect at one main spot. *The plans also call for an underground promenade with moving walkway to go underfground from Fulton to WTC to a new Ferry terminal at the WTC.

Great plans, they should all go through, hopefully.

TLOZ Link5
June 8th, 2003, 06:28 PM
They'll go through, pending that there's enough money and very little red tape.

October 9th, 2003, 05:20 PM
Architect's Nicholas Grimshaw & Partners have been assigned to this particular project. Yet another A-List architect and another Brit to add to the growing list of architects.

Tuesday October 14, 2003
On Track: Fulton Street Transit Center Design Forum
at Center for Architecture

A forum sponsored by the American Institute of Architects and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, focusing on design goals for the Fulton Street Transit Center by the design sub-consultant Nicholas Grimshaw & Partners will follow an introduction of the project goals by the MTA Capital Construction Company's President, Mysore Nagaraja.

A panel discussion with noted New York architects will conclude the forum, which aims to provide an early opportunity for New York's architectural community to offer input towards the ongoing design of the complex and its above ground presence.

Location:Center For Architecture, 536 LaGuardia Place
Time: 5:30 to 7:30 p.m.
Contact:To register or for more information, contact Virginia Borkoski at 646-252-3108




October 9th, 2003, 05:33 PM
Using google image search:











October 9th, 2003, 05:46 PM
Impressive list of architects, really.

Looks like there's A LOT of promise, but I hope we don't have a bee hive or snail family in Lower Manhattan. We'll see. Can't wait to see how Corbin is included in the design.

October 9th, 2003, 09:02 PM


April 5th, 2004, 01:10 AM
April 5, 2004

Artist of Glass and Light to Join Fulton Street Project


The naming of James Carpenter as collaborating artist for the building of the Fulton Street Transit Center in Lower Manhattan is a measure of New York State's aspirations.

Mr. Carpenter, 54, whose work includes the astonishingly transparent cable-net glass wall at the new Time Warner Center on Columbus Circle, was awarded a $340,000 contract by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority last week to join the architectural and engineering team working on the transit center, which is to be completed in 2007.

Nicholas Grimshaw & Partners of London and Lee Harris Pomeroy Associates of Manhattan are the architects, working with Arup, an international engineering concern. Mr. Grimshaw designed the Waterloo International Terminal in London for the Eurostar trains to Paris.

Mr. Carpenter and his 11-member TriBeCa studio, James Carpenter Design Associates, are also responsible for a second important downtown commission: a reflective, multilayered, stainless-steel screen that will enfold the Consolidated Edison substation at the base of 7 World Trade Center, now under construction across Vesey Street from ground zero.

The design of the $750 million Fulton Street Transit Center is expected to be unveiled in about a month. The centerpiece is to be an airy transit hall at Broadway and Fulton Street that is meant to help bring some visual unity and order to an unruly tangle of subway stations serving the A, C, J, M, Z, 2, 3, 4 and 5 lines. It would also be connected by a concourse under Dey Street to the World Trade Center PATH terminal.

Not that the M.T.A. would say so, but Fulton Street gives the authority a chance to show off architecturally, in the wake of the fairly ecstatic critical reception accorded the PATH terminal design by Santiago Calatrava, DMJM & Harris, and STV.

Mr. Carpenter's involvement telegraphs a structure that would involve a lot of glass and other bright materials, perhaps arrayed prismatically to send light rays shooting through the structure. In other words: not your father's subway station.

"The goal is to affect one's experience of place, by creating these stunning properties of light," Mr. Carpenter said. Sandra Bloodworth, director of the Arts for Transit program at the M.T.A. and one of the panelists who chose Mr. Carpenter, said he "brings to the table a sense of light and a sense of space that complements the work of the architects." More than 200 artists applied, she said.

His work is concerned with "how light moves across a space, the way it refracts and the way it reflects to create an atmosphere and environment that can be, at times, magical," Ms. Bloodworth added. Neither she nor Mr. Carpenter would divulge specifics about the design of the center. Because the artwork is still under development, the cost has yet to be determined.

The architecture of the transit hall is to provide an above-ground landmark that will help travelers find what is now a gopher-hole collection of subway entrances. And it is to offer arriving passengers a chance to orient themselves, by looking through the hall to nearby landmarks like St. Paul's Chapel. The transit center will also incorporate the 115-year-old Corbin Building on the corner of John Street.

Mr. Carpenter has worked with Skidmore, Owings & Merrill on the Time Warner Center and 7 World Trade Center projects, which treat light in different ways.

The point of the 149-foot-high cable-net glass wall at the Time Warner Center is to be as transparent as possible. Shoppers coming up the escalators from Whole Foods may feel at times as if they were headed straight outdoors, while those looking across the atrium from the balconies may have the sense that the Columbus Monument has been moved indoors.

By contrast 7 World Trade Center involves a most untransparent concrete base for the Con Ed substation. (The office tower is rising above that base.) To give this massive structure a sense of lightness, Mr. Carpenter has designed a two-layered stainless-steel wall, with panels made of prismatic wires set at different angles so that alternating facets reflect different parts of the sky. At night the cavity between the layers will be illuminated with fixtures that can change pattern constantly.

One project that may presage elements of the transit center is his "Suspended Glass Tower" of 1997 at the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Center, a 64-foot-high cylindrical sculpture made of semitransparent glass triangles.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

Here, Preservation Meets Imagination - Corbin Building (http://forums.wirednewyork.com/viewtopic.php?t=1227)

April 7th, 2004, 10:54 AM
A design for the Fulton Street Station by KPF is here


April 7th, 2004, 12:57 PM
That's... interesting...

April 7th, 2004, 01:37 PM
But I wonder how close that is to the final design.

The design of the $750 million Fulton Street Transit Center is expected to be unveiled in about a month.

April 7th, 2004, 03:30 PM
:D Great design! Well NYC is sure moving on the right direction with mix public places these days...Alot of glass not just concrete or brick walls like designs from the 60's and 70's look at MSG what a dissapointment.

TLOZ Link5
April 7th, 2004, 06:09 PM
Saying that MSG is a "disappointment" is the most severe of understatements.

April 13th, 2004, 03:44 PM
I received the following email from the Municipal Art Society:


This is the first briefing in the Municipal Art Society's Engaging Lower Manhattan series, which is designed to keep people aware and up-to-date on planning efforts in Lower Manhattan so that the public can help shape the results. For more information or to RSVP, email syackel@mas.org.

Seth Johnson
Municipal Art Society
457 Madison Ave.
New York, NY 10022
t: (212) 935-3960x248
f: (212) 753-1816


Engaging Lower Manhattan

Wednesday, April 28, 6:00-8:00 p.m.
At St. John's University's Lower Manhattan campus (101 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Streets)

Are you wondering what’s happening in Lower Manhattan? Are you curious about the status of rebuilding efforts? If so, join us for the April 28th kickoff of the Municipal Art Society’s Engaging Lower Manhattan, a series of public briefings aimed at increasing the public's understanding and ability to participate in the planning for Lower Manhattan. With its focus on bringing the public into the planning process, Engaging Lower Manhattan follows in the trail blazed by programs like Imagine New York.
At our first event, William Wheeler, the MTA's director of special project development and planning, will speak about the MTA's Fulton Street Transit Center Plan from 6:00 - 8:00 p.m. at St. John's University's Lower Manhattan campus. Participants will not only learn about the new transit station at Fulton Street, but also how to affect the process when the Draft Environmental Impact Statement is released in April.

Representatives from Manhattan Community Board 1, the Civic Alliance, the Lower Manhattan Emergency Preservation Fund, and New York New Visions will be on hand to engage in an open discussion with the MTA and the public.

Date: Wednesday, April 28
Time: 6:00-8:00 p.m.
Location: St. John's University's Lower Manhattan campus (101 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Streets)
RSVP to 212.935.3960 or syackel@mas.org.


Also, the low building on the SE corner of Fulton & Broadway has been cleaned up (looks pretty good), a Sleepy's Bedding has moved into the 2nd floor with a "Grand Opening" banner.

I wonder how long they expect to be there?

May 6th, 2004, 03:15 PM

Pataki said the MTA will reveal the new station design on May 26.

May 6th, 2004, 04:32 PM

Pataki said the MTA will reveal the new station design on May 26.

Good news!

May 25th, 2004, 12:56 PM

Pataki said the MTA will reveal the new station design on May 26.

Tommorow's the day.!

May 25th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Businesses Face Eviction For Fulton Street Transit Center

MAY 25TH, 2004

This week, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority will unveil its design for the Fulton Street Transit Center. It's expected to be as grand in scope as the design for the nearby World Trade Center transit hub.

But for the businesses in buildings that will have to be knocked down to make way for the project, there is more resentment than excitement.

“We kept the place up and running. They were worried about businesses leaving en masse after 9/11, and now it's like a slap in the face,” said Jim Boudouvas, the owner of New York Blossoms, Inc.

Boudouvas' flower shop is one of more than 100 businesses that will likely have to relocate. The buildings being torn down range from one to 12 stories and are home to several chain stores, including a Modell's that is already scouting for a new location.

“We're looking for other sites along Broadway, in this general area,” said Wayne Ford, the general manager of the Modell’s. “We have 110 stores, so I'm sure we'll be able to get another location, if we can't keep this location. The company will be OK.”

But some smaller businesses may not be OK. Mirza Mamur moved his art and frame store five months after the September 11, 2001, attacks, banking on the idea that things would get better Downtown.

“I made my customers, the economy is getting better, I can feel the economy getting better with the business, and now we have to move again,” he said.

The MTA will help businesses with the cost of relocating. The agency also says that because of high vacancy rates in the area, they shouldn't have trouble finding a place to move. But unlike businesses on the Upper East Side that recently got letters warning about the impact of the Second Avenue subway, these businesses have gotten almost no information up to this point, and they seem to have little trust they'll be taken care of.

“Of course I'm worried about it,” said Boudouvas. “I got two children. I got bills to pay, just like the rest of us do. “I ate through all my savings after 9/11 just to keep this place up and running.”

The design for the transit center will be unveiled Wednesday at a meeting of the American Institute of Architects. Then business owners and anyone else wanting to comment will get their say at a public hearing on June 8.

- Bobby Cuza

May 26th, 2004, 12:50 AM
New York Times
May 26, 2004

A Shimmering Facet for Lower Manhattan


Planned Fulton Street transit center. A scene from Broadway and Fulton Street.

Add another transparent polymorph to downtown's future landscape. If blueprints can be believed, office towers, apartment houses, commuter rail terminals - and now, even a subway station - will shimmer luminously as they taper and soar.

Astride a tangled labyrinth linking four stations on the A, C, J, M, Z, 2, 3, 4 and 5 lines, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority proposes a tapering, conical, 110-foot-tall steel-and-glass dome that would emerge from within a 50-foot-high glass-box pavilion at Broadway and Fulton Street. This translucent and transparent structure would, in effect, harvest daylight and send it as far as possible underground, opening new vistas and brightening what is now a dank warren of platforms and passageways.

The design of the $750 million Fulton Street Transit Center, to be completed in 2007, will be unveiled today at the Center for Architecture in Greenwich Village. A public hearing on the draft environmental impact statement is scheduled for June 8. The architect is Grimshaw, a firm founded by Sir Nicholas Grimshaw, working with Arup, James Carpenter Design Associates, Daniel Frankfurt, Lee Harris Pomeroy Associates and M.T.A. staff members.

Under their plan, a new 350-foot-long concourse beneath Dey Street would link the Fulton Street stations to the PATH trains and the E, the R and W and the 1 and 9 subways at the future World Trade Center transportation hub that is being designed by Santiago Calatrava. Two platforms would be rehabilitated and an east-west mezzanine would be renovated and simplified.

But the signature of the new transit center will be the dome, with its 50-foot-diameter oculus skylight and its crisscross framework of curved, diagonal facets. Apart from elevated lines and control houses, like those at Bowling Green and 72nd Street, it would be one of the few distinctive aboveground structures in the 100-year-old subway system.

And it is intended to be a landmark for pedestrians, far easier to find among the crooked streets of Lower Manhattan than the current entrances to the Fulton Street platforms, many of which are tucked into other buildings.

"I'm really a little breathless about it," Peter S. Kalikow, the chairman of the M.T.A., said yesterday after he was shown the models. "It's perfectly juxtaposed to what's going on at the World Trade Center. It makes what was a mess into something beautiful."

The oculus may remind some viewers of the Pantheon. The convex taper may recall the form of ancient sikhara spires in Indian architecture or Norman Foster's new Swiss Re headquarters in London, better known as the gherkin.

New Yorkers, never shy about nicknaming unusual architecture (the Tombs, the Church of the Holy Zebra, the Lipstick Building) may find it hard to resist thinking of this structure as a jeweled egg to Mr. Calatrava's birdlike terminal.

From within, the center's design is intended to help wayfinding. For instance, St. Paul's Chapel will be visible from the mezzanine level, greeting arriving riders from seven subway lines. "St. Paul's is a major orientation point," said William Wheeler, the director of special project development and planning at the M.T.A. "When you come in and see the church, there's no mistaking it."

But the pavilion will not be entirely see-through. There will be small stores on both Broadway and Fulton Street. "The community has said that retail and some modest commercial activity that restores street life is important," Mr. Wheeler said.

Construction will require the acquisition of every building on the east side of Broadway between John and Fulton Streets. The nine-story, 115-year-old Corbin Building will be preserved and incorporated into the center. Travelers will be able to enter the center through restored arches in the base of the Corbin Building and pass by the inverted arches that form its foundations, which will be exposed to view.

Other properties along Broadway, including a former Childs Restaurant and the 102-year-old Girard Building, will be razed. The state also plans to acquire a two-story building at 189 Broadway, occupied by the World of Golf store, to create a street-level entrance to the Dey Street concourse, which may have moving walkways.

The new transit center will be an amenity for tenants in the former American Telephone and Telegraph building at 195 Broadway, which Mr. Kalikow owns. He said he had reviewed the matter with the State Ethics Commission, had not participated in daily meetings on the project and had not discussed it with Mysore L. Nagaraja, the president of the M.T.A. Capital Construction Company.

"We bought this building because it sits on the hub of all that transportation," Mr. Kalikow said, likening it to another H. J. Kalikow & Company building, 101 Park Avenue, near Grand Central Terminal. "I didn't buy this building in 1983 and say, 'Just think - in 21 years, I'm going to be chairman of the M.T.A. and there's going to be a great station.' "

Gene Russianoff, the staff attorney of the New York Public Interest Research Group Straphangers Campaign, said he was convinced that Mr. Kalikow had kept an appropriate distance. "The idea had more than one author, and the project is a meritorious one," Mr. Russianoff said. "He's right: he's a smart man for buying a building at a transit hub."

About the current state of the stations, Mr. Russianoff said, "It's misery for riders - clogged entrances, confused passageways, congested platforms and a crazy quilt of connections." He said the Straphangers Campaign strongly supported the new project.

Mr. Nagaraja is to introduce the project today at 4 p.m. in the Center for Architecture, at 536 La Guardia Place, between Bleecker and West Third Streets. The event is open to the public. Models, computer animations and drawings will be on view at the center through mid-July, from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. on weekdays, 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. on Saturdays.

"What's obviously most exciting is the transparency," said Fredric M. Bell, executive director of the New York chapter of the American Institute of Architects, which runs the Center for Architecture. But so is the retail frontage, he said. "Broadway and Fulton is too important an intersection to have just a glass facade."

Travelers follow the ramps at the Fulton Street subway station, atop which a new glass-and-steel transit center is to be completed in 2007.


Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

May 26th, 2004, 09:56 AM

:| Well...I can't tell if I like it or not by looking at this rendering but maybe I need to go to the Center for Architecture to see more of this project.

"What's obviously most exciting is the transparency," said Fredric M. Bell, executive director of the New York chapter of the American Institute of Architects, which runs the Center for Architecture. But so is the retail frontage, he said. "Broadway and Fulton is too important an intersection to have just a glass facade."

But if he likes it then I think it will be good.

May 26th, 2004, 10:05 AM
It explains why no building was proposed on top of it.

May 26th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Well I like it, it looks modern, it looks like something in Japan, and I think Japan has the COOLEST buildings

May 26th, 2004, 02:10 PM
The architecture is fine, but I question the wisdom of spending $750 million and evicting 100 businesses to construct a building that won't get anyone to or from their destination any faster than before. Since when does the NYC subway system need above-ground terminals?

Frankly, I could think of a lot better uses for our transit dollar. For example, the folks at Auto-Free NY have proposed that the money be spent instead on running the 6 line one more stop southbound, which would connect it to the Path trains and Fulton Street-area subway lines. Alternatively, this money could form the down payment for a JFK/LIRR link to Downtown, which would provide a huge economic lift down here. Or, this money could be used to build the first, Downtown leg (Hanover Square to the Seaport) of the Second Avenue Subway.

And couple that $750 million with the $860 million to be spent on a West Street tunnel (which provides no public transportation benefit) and the $400 million to be spent on the South Street ferry terminal renovation (which, like the Fulton Street renovation, doesn't really quicken anyone's commute), and you start to have some real money with which New York could make some grand transportation improvements.

Before all these projects go forward, it would be nice if all the regional politicians and transit authorities could get together and decide what really are the transportation priorities for New York.

May 26th, 2004, 02:19 PM
So the criteria for everything is bare-bones utility?

Stated at the PATH station unveiling: "We don't build grand anymore?"

May 26th, 2004, 02:35 PM
I totally disagree with BPC on his opinion of the necessity of the station. I think this is precisely what that station and that area needs. True, it does not move people "faster". It does however create a space and environment let's subway passengers and residents of the neighborhood feel that the city cares. To some extent, I feel it restores a sense of dignity to Mass Transit. I also believe it is important that underground mass transit pierce the surface at certain points and offer portals that are welcoming, bright and (at 100 years old) modern. That station is a mess and, given the amount of work that will be required below ground to integrate the different lines, it is fitting that in the end a crystalline entrance marks the spot of this work.

I don't discount the other projects BPC cites as necessary and worthy. I believe they should be pursued and created in addition to this, not at the expense of this.

I hope the "dome" has the same effect of the Reichstag dome by Foster, capturing and directing light downward.

I think the concept is brilliant. Obviously one rendering can't be seen as truly representative.

May 26th, 2004, 02:36 PM

This is a computer-generated architectural rendering of the proposed Lower Manhattan transportation hub, released in New York Wednesday May 25, 2004. The pavillion at Broadway and Fulton St. would feature a 110-foot tall steel and glass dome as part of the design of the Fulton Street Transit Center.

May 26th, 2004, 02:52 PM
Blah architecture. I suppose today, officially, One New York Place is dead!

May 26th, 2004, 03:02 PM
It was DOA if you ask me.

I quite like the dome but think the integration with the historic building next door could have been better.

May 26th, 2004, 03:28 PM
1 NY Place...that was the extrememely tall one right?

May 26th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Blah architecture. I suppose today, officially, One New York Place is dead!

It may be dead on this site, but it would be even better if the city condemned, via eminent domain, the shit across the street from the transit center on the west side of Broadway (in addition to World Golf) and let Davis develop 1 NY Place there. There are many parcels of shit on that site, which are presumably owned by many different people, so the city's intervention is important to expediting the redevelopment of that block.

May 26th, 2004, 03:38 PM
Blah architecture. I suppose today, officially, One New York Place is dead!

I wouldn't say it was dead - it was a seperate proposal from the transit center.

The only version of the 90-story proposal that we saw was not designed with the transit center in place - a tall and narrow building on a broad base (although the developer said it could be built above the transit terminal).

Its better to have the transit center open, to allow the daylight in. But the rest of the block, and the rest of Fulton St will still be redeveloped for more residential and cultural space. There will be another tower to rise on the square block next to the transit terminal, 1 NY Place or not...


May 26th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Is it conceivable that the air rights from the Fulton terminal could be transferred to the eventual construction of 1NYP? That would allow a much taller tower to rise there.

May 26th, 2004, 09:53 PM
So the criteria for everything is bare-bones utility?

Stated at the PATH station unveiling: "We don't build grand anymore?"

It's not the only criteria, but at $750M it should be one of them. The difference here is the PATH station in an empty hole in the ground; it won't result in a 100 businesses being evicted.

TLOZ Link5
May 26th, 2004, 10:03 PM
About 100 businesses or more were forcibly evicted from the World Trade Center for obvious reasons. The new station will have retail space, and I'm sure that many of the displaced businesses will have priority in leasing the new space.

New York is too built-up to make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, so to speak, albeit with the use of a very cliché saying. Hudson Yards, Downtown Brooklyn, the Nets Arena, the Second Avenue Subway...these are just a few of the myriad developments that involve getting rid of, evicting, displacing or destroying something that was already there. Sometimes we need to look beyond short-term drawbacks and embrace the long-term benefits.

May 26th, 2004, 10:23 PM
It's not the only criteria, but at $750M it should be one of them.
Umm, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the $750 million for the entire project, not just the building?

May 26th, 2004, 10:27 PM

Design Unveiled For New Fulton Street Transit Center (http://www.ny1.com/ny/Boroughs/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=3&subtopicintid=8&contentint id=40196)

May 26th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Alternatively, this money could form the down payment for a JFK/LIRR link to Downtown

Without a new station complex where would the LIRR trains go? How would passengers access the trains below ground, the LIRR cannot use Subway tracks or platforms. The new Fulton Street terminal facilitates the building of a LIRR connection to Downtown, without a terminal the LIRR has no place to go.

And couple that $750 million with the $860 million to be spent on a West Street tunnel (which provides no public transportation benefit) and the $400 million to be spent on the South Street ferry terminal renovation (which, like the Fulton Street renovation, doesn't really quicken anyone's commute), and you start to have some real money with which New York could make some grand transportation improvements.

The 9-11 money was earmarked to improve, update, expand or replace "existing" infastructure in Lower Manhattan.

Not to build a new rail line to the Long Island Rail Road, it would be a huge uphill battle that would be a political hot potato in the era of "fleecing of America" news to use this money for other purposes.

The media is already pouncing on the Liberty bond issue.

May 27th, 2004, 12:22 AM
It's not the only criteria, but at $750M it should be one of them.
Umm, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the $750 million for the entire project, not just the building?

I think that figue includes improved undergound connections, which (unlike the building) is something I would support , but I don't know how the $750M breaks down. Whatever the price, we're talking a lot of tax dollars for a pointless architectural showpiece that will have a devitalizing effect on Lower Manhattan. If you keep replacing vital New York streetscape with transit centers and stadia and set-back skyscrapers, eventually you end up in Atlanta.

May 27th, 2004, 12:56 AM
I don't know why they built that ridiculous Grand Central Terminal. All that wasted space inside doesn't speed up anyone's commute. :roll:

The underground work is extensive. It includes the concourse connection to the PATH. I remember reading a figure of $350 million. It may be here (http://www.mta.info/capconstr/fstc/) if you want to look for it.

I don't see how a low-rise structure designed specifically for pedestrians, that encourages mass transit use, with added retail, will devitalize Lower Manhattan and make it like Atlanta. In Atlanta, it would be sited in a parking field.

May 27th, 2004, 11:31 AM
New Fulton Transit Center Lets In the Light

May 27, 2004

A scale model of the planned Fulton Transit Center unveiled yesterday at the Center for Architecture

A look at plans for the new Fulton Street Transit Center main entrance reveals a lofty, glass-over-steel cone that will open the station to day, inviting street light as far down as the 4/5 train platform. The design is a far cry from the dim, crowded station that currently serves nearly 300,000 riders a day with its 10 subway lines on five scattered platforms.

The new layout is the product of many months of research, community outreach, and exhaustive engineering strategies by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's (MTA) design team, led by international architecture firm Grimshaw. It was unveiled yesterday as the MTA's top choice out of several similar blueprints presented in the draft environmental impact statement (EIS).

"We want this structure to be iconic," said Andrew Whalley, the project's lead designer at Grimshaw, who presented the station's layout to the press and public at the Center for Architecture. Whalley explained that the goal of the $750 million design is to create a structure that is recognizable from both the interior and exterior -- and to that end, use of light is key. "Light helps you way-find. It helps you connect to the city," Whalley explained.

The interior of the main entrance's conical structure is almost egg-shaped, allowing light to bounce between panes of glass and refract down to two levels below the street. Tentative plans for that space include retail shops and other amenities, and, potentially, restaurants or public balconies.

Elsewhere, the new design sorts out the maze of ramps and passageways within the station itself and establishes a walkway under Dey Street. The much-anticipated underground link will connect Fulton Center trains with the R/W line at Cortlandt Street and the World Trade Center transportation hub -- home to the PATH and, eventually, a direct rail line to regional airports. The Dey Street walkway will have its own recognizable glass-and-steel entrance along Broadway.

Whalley noted that the plan answers the Fulton Street station's top priorities -- ease of movement and reduced travel time -- by "rationalizing" the entire complex and using consistencies in design, such as easy-to-understand signage and both natural and artificial light.

"There will be clear lines of sight throughout the system," he said. "And I think it will be a thing of great beauty when we've finished."

Perhaps more important for commuters, the design opens up corridors between subway lines that will eliminate platform crowding (particularly along the 4/5 line) and, as a result, reduce train congestion.

Most pleasing to those Lower Manhattanites most proud of the area's history may be the designers' crafty incorporation of the 115-year-old Corbin Building, which sits at the northeast corner of Broadway and John Street and will share the block with the station's towering main entrance. In the lead plan, the nine-story Corbin Building will be fully refurbished, with its ground and lower levels transformed into part of the new station's entryway.

Designers also plan to restore the original Fulton Street station's mosaics and terra cotta tile work along the 4/5 line, again carefully reserving a place for century-old craftsmanship within the contemporary design.

For the plan to move forward without major architectural changes, the MTA must acquire all of the real estate on Broadway between Fulton and John Streets, along with a select few other buildings that will likely be razed for the station's construction. Exact details, including timing for potential demolitions, are part of the forthcoming final EIS.

The station's proposed designs are now officially open for discussion, with a public hearing on the draft EIS set for June 8. If the project's timing stays on schedule, start of construction on the new station could begin as soon as late 2004, with the station's grand opening in 2007.

"We want this to be a destination," said Mysore Nagaraja, P.E., president of MTA Capital Construction. "After 2007 people are going to be saying, 'Meet me at the Fulton Transit Center.'"

The public hearing will take place on Tuesday, June 8 at 2 Broadway, 20th floor, with an open house starting at 4:30 p.m. and the official hearing at 6 p.m. For more information visit www.mta.info/capconstr/fstc .

Model shows a cross-section of the main entrance


May 27th, 2004, 12:13 PM


May 27th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Is it conceivable that the air rights from the Fulton terminal could be transferred to the eventual construction of 1NYP? That would allow a much taller tower to rise there.

I wonder about Downtown's air rights, for example, now that the 55 Water St expansion won't be built, where will the air rights go? As far as the Fulton St site:

The site is one of the largest (other than the WTC) remaining development sites Downtown. It is zoned for a 1.3 msf tower. That's exactly the size of the 1 NY Place proposal, but of course that was with the broader base. To remain at that size, the tower would have to be reconfigured or increase its height.


A developer who has built a dozen residential towers in the relatively safe environs of the East Side now wants to plunge into uncertain waters downtown, with a new 90-story skyscraper....

Friends of the developer, Trevor Davis, describe him as a visionary for his designs for a building that would be 1,050 feet tall.......

Designed by Kohn Pedersen Fox, the $680 million, 1.3-million-square-foot tower would be called 1 New York Place and combine shops on the bottom floors with 679,000 square feet of office space and 68 floors of apartments on top of the offices, on an entire block on Broadway, between Fulton and John Streets.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is planning to build a $750 million transit hub in the tunnels below the site, which would link the myriad subway and rail lines that run across Lower Manhattan. If that happens, Mr. Davis said, he could build overhead.


A model of the 90-story proposal (back then)


May 27th, 2004, 07:00 PM
New York is really getting some good transportation
projects. It makes traveling around on the city's trains
and subways just a little more pleasant. If they could
do something about train delays, it would almost be perfect!


May 28th, 2004, 10:29 AM
If they would make ALL the trains have the electronic voices like on the 5 train. sometimes when I was on others trains the operator would sounds muffled or he was speaking too low and fast for me to make it out. This may not be a problem for NY'ers, but for me being a 1st time tourist I needed to know what stops were coming up. So IN MY OPINION, having the electronic womans voice on EVERY line would make the subway perfect without anything else done to the whole MTA.

May 28th, 2004, 10:39 AM
WHat is the historic significance of the current station. It seems like a lot would be lost with it being totally upgraded. That said, I am in favor of the new streamlined design. What do you guys think?



May 28th, 2004, 11:02 AM
From the article posted on the preceding page:

Designers also plan to restore the original Fulton Street station's mosaics and terra cotta tile work along the 4/5 line, again carefully reserving a place for century-old craftsmanship within the contemporary design

Email from Municipal Art Society:

As follow-up to the meeting and to further enable public participation in the environmental review process, we wanted to inform you that the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the Fulton Street Transit Center is now available online at http://www.mta.info/capconstr/fstc/contact.htm. Written comments on the DEIS will be accepted by the MTA until close of business on June 28, 2004. Public comments regarding impacts to historic resources under Section 106 of the National Historical Preservation Act (NHPA) and the State Historic Preservation Act (SHPA) will also be accepted. Please send written comments to:

Mysore L. Nagaraja P.E., President
MTA Capital Construction
2 Broadway - 8th Floor
New York, NY 10004
Attn: Fulton Street Transit Center

May 28th, 2004, 01:37 PM

Glass brings class to Fulton Street Transit site


May 28, 2004

When the New York subway system is ready to blow a spectacular glass bubble aboveground, then you know that the climate for architecture in the city has really changed. With its proposal for the Fulton Street Transit Center, unveiled Wednesday, the Metropolitan Transit Authority has vaulted out of its subterranean dominions to get in on the action of shaping a dramatic streetscape.

This is not the first new Upper World subway station of the high-design era. Two handsome structures at Stillwell Avenue in Brooklyn and Roosevelt Avenue in Queens are under construction. But the Fulton Street Station, when it opens at least three years and $750 million from now, twill be by far the most architecturally ambitious.

A five-story glass cupola pops out of a glass crate and lists a little, not drunkenly but with rational grace, like a classical statue of a figure poised to move. At the top is an oculus, a great glass eye where a belltower might be, if this were a church. Instead, it is a transparent icon of rationalism for a dark and mystifying system underground - a bit of false advertising, perhaps, but also a beacon for the MTA's long-term hopes of bringing logic to its tangle of burrows.

(But just try figuring out who designed what: Grimshaw, a London-based firm headed by Sir Nicholas Grimshaw, is working with two other architectural firms, Daniel Frankfurt and Lee Harris Pomeroy, plus Arup, a world leader in extreme engineering.)

The Egg-in-a-Box will be easy to find. This is a revolutionary virtue in a city where most subway entrances lurk and hide their signs, as if to disorient an invading army. Down below, a sunlit circular hall should make some sense of the skein of converging train lines (the 2, 3, 4, 5, A, C, E, J, M, R, W and Z). Pedestrian tunnels will knit together portions of the system that were built to compete with one another. Foot traffic will flow underground between the Fulton Street dome and the great glass hall of Santiago Calatrava's World Trade Center Transit Hub - two crystal palaces also linked by the desire to produce some dazzle from the marriage of transportation and design.

It's striking how consonant these two curvaceous stations are, great sacramental spaces covered in transparent skins and supported by visible latticework of steel. If Calatrava's building feels gothic and cathedral-like, Grimshaw & Co.'s gives off echoes of a Renaissance cupola that has been pushed slightly askew. Both pay homage to Grand Central Station: Calatrava's, by emulating the old building's majesty; Grimshaw's, with a raised walkway around the dome, intended for restaurants and stores, but also as a perch from which to gaze down at the theater of transit.

To make way for the terminal, the MTA will have to knock down several buildings. It has, however, pledged to preserve and restore the Corbin Building, an ornate, eight-story wedge faced with tawny brick and terra cotta, which qualified as a skyscraper when it went up in 1889.

Squeezed alongside it and across the street from the pre-revolutionary chapel of St. Paul's, the Fulton Street Transit Station has a lot of history to contend with, and it does so fearlessly. After a long period when architects and developers seemed embarrassed by the past, they have begun relearning how to reuse, welding different periods by the bold use of contrast.

Passengers riding up the escalators will face St. Paul's through glass, transforming the transit station into a display case for the church. The adjacency of the Corbin Building and the transit center will offer a lesson in two stages of advanced technology, more than a century apart. In a single field of vision, we will be able to see structures grow lighter, masonry dissolve into glass, and an elaborately decorated wedge merge with a sleek, immaterial egg.

Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

May 28th, 2004, 01:47 PM


May 28th, 2004, 02:34 PM
http://www.gothamgazette.com/rebuilding_nyc/features/fulton_street/images/1.JPG http://www.gwathmey-siegel.com/projects/architecture/library_projects/nyplmid/images/pop-ups/mml_r09.jpg

I couldn't help but think of the Mid-Manhattan Library when I saw this--two crystalline blobs escaping from boxes.

June 1st, 2004, 10:39 AM
NY Times...

Golf Store Lands Out of Bounds in New Transit Center's Layout

June 1, 2004

Robert Moses, the master builder who uprooted many tenants in his day, said you couldn't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

He failed to mention wedges, woods, putters, irons and drivers.

The latest project unveiled for Lower Manhattan, the Fulton Street Transit Center, will connect four subway stations under a crystalline glass dome. It will also almost surely doom the World of Golf in its building at 189 Broadway.

Overflowing with golf balls, apparel and hundreds of gleaming clubs, the second-floor store opened in 1998 but had to close for six months after being badly damaged in the Sept. 11, 2001, attack.

"I'm extremely concerned that this will represent the second death of this business," said David Braham, 48, an owner of the World of Golf, whose other store, at 147 East 47th Street, was opened by his parents, Stanley and Anne, in 1968. Almost every big project pushes out tenants, some quite distinctive.

The Fulton Street center will affect about 140 offices and stores, mostly on Broadway between John and Fulton Streets, where the new transit hall is to rise by 2007. Many will move; others, undoubtedly, will close.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority also has its eye on 189 Broadway, at Dey Street, a two-story structure that World of Golf shares with a Chinese restaurant, a photo finisher, a picture framer, a clothing store, a lingerie store, a cookie shop and a smoke shop. On this corner, the M.T.A. plans an airy entry pavilion, with elevators, leading to the 4 and 5 subway platform, to the main transit hall and to a new underground concourse running to the World Trade Center site, the PATH terminal and the E, R and W lines.

"It seems like a million people like it," Mr. Braham said, "and 140 people don't."

Tenants will have a chance to comment at an environmental hearing next Tuesday and on the property takings at a hearing this fall, said Roco Krsulic, the director of real estate for the transportation authority. Tenants, he said, will be given 90-day notices and will receive relocation assistance and compensation for their fixtures. "The M.T.A. is extremely sensitive that we accommodate both tenants and owners," Mr. Krsulic said.

What worries Mr. Braham is finding comparable, affordable real estate. The store is halfway through a 10-year lease, paying about $30 a square foot annually for 4,800 square feet of space in the financial district, where many of his customers are.

"It's a great place to go at lunchtime when your head is pounding from work," said David C. Rubin, founder of the Rubin Group, an insurance brokerage firm on John Street. He recalled admiringly that Mr. Braham tracked down a hard-to-find Sonartec 3-wood. Just as important, Mr. Rubin said, "They're not going to let you walk out with a $119 wedge that may not be suited or appropriate to your game."

The store has a tiny putting green and rooms where customers can be fitted for clubs or work with an instructor on their swing. The six employees are golfers themselves.

Mr. Braham said he hopes to find a new store downtown. But for the moment, he said, he is distressed and desperate for information. "Everything I know about condemnation law, I've learned in the last 48 hours," Mr. Braham said on Friday.

He added: "We totally understand that what's best for New York has to be done. But we're sad it's being done on our backs."


David Braham, an owner at World of Golf, faces the prospect of closing the store's doors again.


Bags and clubs littered the floor at 189 Broadway in Lower Manhattan after the Sept. 11 attack.

June 1st, 2004, 11:01 AM
I couldn't help but think of the Mid-Manhattan Library when I saw this--two crystalline blobs escaping from boxes.
Good eye.

June 2nd, 2004, 03:09 PM
Downtown Express...

Fulton subway design receives praise from many

By Josh Rogers


What architect Andrew Whalley of Grimshaw calls “The View,” how the Fulton Transit Center would look from St. Paul’s Chapel.


A model showing the center’s interior, which is on display at the Center Architecture at 536 LaGuardia Place.

The $750 million design for a new subway center at Fulton St. and Broadway received glowing praise from resident leaders and transportation advocates at the opening unveiling May 26, but mixed reviews an hour later from some of the small businesses the new center will displace.

William Wheeler, planning director of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, said the 9-line Broadway-Nassau-Fulton stations were built by three different subway-operating companies and were originally “designed to compete with each other in the early 1900’s.”

During the presentation at the Center for Architecture on LaGuardia Pl., Wheeler showed pictures of the station’s notoriously unwieldy ramps and mocked the M.T.A.’s confusing signs trying to direct people to make subway transfers.

The new station designed by Grimshaw, a London-based architectural firm, will have no ramps, a 100-foot transparent dome and easy connections to the 2,3,4,5,A,C,J,M,Z platforms in what will be called the Fulton Transit Center and an underground walkway to the E,R,W and PATH commuter lines under or near the World Trade Center site, a block away from the station.

The M.T.A. plans to begin construction at the end of the year and be finished by the end of 2007.

Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers’ Campaign was one of many who praised the new design. He likened the currently confusing mazes to an amusement park horror room.

“It’s a Fun House and now it will be a fun house,” Russianoff said. He said unlike most of the other major transportation projects competing for federal 9/11 transportation money, the Fulton Center does not have a large group of opponents and should actually get built.

About 20 small businesses, ranging from fast food chains, jewelry and clothing stores, would have to leave to make room for the center, in addition to some offices above the retail.

“It’s going to be bad,” said Mohammed Elfeky, 38, who owns Manhattan Muffin on John St. He said he bought the business in 2002 from the previous owner. He said his ovens and dumb waiter are worth about $300,000 and he will not be able to move them to a new location. “It’s hard to find a place.”

Elfeky, who supports his wife with his business, said he takes the M train every day to work and said people quickly learn their way around the station. “It’s okay,” he said. “People know it.”

The project’s draft environmental impact statement, which was recently released, says that relocating retail businesses will not be difficult because of the retail vacancy rates near the site.

Wheeler said businesses and building owners will be compensated under the eminent domain laws.

Under the preferred option, the five buildings along Broadway between Fulton and John Sts. would be acquired — 192, 194-6, 198, 200 and 202 Broadway. The historic Corbin Building at 192 Broadway, which also has retail spaces on John St., would be acquired and preserved, and the others would be demolished. There would be entrances through the Corbin’s arches into the center. The other options under consideration would preserve the Corbin, but not connect it to the center.

Elfeky said he has not received any official notice about having to move but when he does he wants enough money to set up a new store near the current Manhattan Muffin, where customers have been eating freshly-baked goods for 14 years. He said his current lease runs until 2011.

“I don’t mind if they cover me for everything,” he said “If they negotiate, we’ll sit. We’ll talk.”

Elfeky did receive notice of the public meeting to discuss the environmental statement on June 8 at 4:30 p.m. at 2 Broadway and he plans to attend.

One man who manages a clothing store that would have to vacate, however, was impressed when a Downtown Express reporter showed him a picture of the new center.

“I love the design, but I don’t love to move from here,” said the manager.

Wheeler said the first phase of the construction will be at the east end of the site near the 2,3 lines and will not require any property acquisitions.

The M.T.A. hopes to have the Broadway buildings by the middle or end of 2005 when construction is expected to begin there.

Andrew Whalley, an architect with Grimshaw, said the center will be prominently visible from all sides, unlike the hidden subway entrances now. He said the best look at the building will be from St. Paul’s Chapel, catty-corner to the subway hub. “‘The View’ is from St. Paul’s looking back,” he said.

He said he did not design the building to fit architecturally with Santiago Calatrava’s proposed design for the $2 billion W.T.C. PATH-subway station a block away, but the Fulton Center will provide an easy connection to that hub. M.T.A. officials said they would consider using the MetroCard to allow free subway transfers between Fulton and the Calatrava stations, but no decision has been made.

In addition to Grimshaw, Arup, James Carpenter Design Associates, Daniel Frankfurt and Lee Pomeroy Associates worked on the Fulton design.

Wheeler said that there is little chance the project will suffer from cost overruns or have to be scaled back. “We’re very confident with the cost estimate and being able to stay within the 750 million,” he said.

Wheeler said on a typical weekday, about 300,000 riders enter, exit or transfer at Fulton, making it one of the largest centers in the subway system.

In response to a question about installing a system to let riders know which will be the next train leaving Fulton going to Midtown so riders can go to that platform, the M.T.A.’s Mysore Nagaaraja said it will take about two years to install a train locator system with a better public address system for the numbered trains and a minimum of six years to put in the same system for the lettered ones.

June 2nd, 2004, 06:09 PM
hey, what does this "center of architecture" have in it? And how many high rises are being demolished for this?

June 2nd, 2004, 06:10 PM
I think none.

June 2nd, 2004, 06:15 PM

Is the egg glass structure bend it to the side a little bit or is it just the way the rendering is showing it? :?

June 2nd, 2004, 06:33 PM

June 21st, 2004, 01:36 AM



September 11th, 2004, 01:32 PM
New large file images from LMDC website:

View north on Broadway

Dome interior

Subway platforms and connections

View from St Paul's

September 11th, 2004, 05:36 PM
There's a rendering of the transit station here and a bunch of other stuff including Battery Park City Site 24.


September 11th, 2004, 08:18 PM
This will be an amazing project and will have the additional benefit of clearing a truly blighted block! Now someone needs to build on the horrible block across the street from it on the west side of the street where the cookie place, Hallmark store and lingerie shop are. It's inevitable that those buildings will be torn down, as they're 3-4 stories and filled with low rent businesses. There is one from 1865, however, that should be rehabilitated and incorporated into the facade of something new.

September 11th, 2004, 11:32 PM
Why don't you go scouting outside of Manhattan for more blighted blocks?

September 12th, 2004, 12:51 AM
Why don't you go scouting outside of Manhattan for more blighted blocks?

Because -- since I live and work in Manhattan, it's the only borough in which I spend time. Also, to have blighted blocks in Manhattan makes no sense, as the value of the property is far more expensive than it is in the Bronx or Queens.

October 9th, 2004, 05:32 PM

November 7th, 2004, 05:13 PM
From New York Construction News; 9/1/04


Untangling History

Fulton Street Transit Center Reconstruction to Unify a Century of Subway Construction

by Jason Feldman

As the new Lower Manhattan rises to replace the devastation wrought by the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, so does the new Fulton Street Transit Center.

And although it may seem that the project is a response to create a new and better Lower Manhattan in the aftermath of the attacks, the old Fulton complex's days were numbered before Sept. 11. A century's worth of subway construction by three different entities left it in big need of reconstruction.

"Right before Sept. 11, we had just finished a study of turning it into a real complex," said Bill Wheeler, director of special project development and planning for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority/New York City Transit. "When Sept. 11 happened, this came right up to the top of the list, so it was a tragic coincidence."

David Palmer, principal and design director, of New York-based Arup, the lead design firm on the project, said many problems arise in the old collection of stations because they were designed by competing entities and were never designed to be connected as they were.

What resulted was a patchwork of tunnels, ramps and small entrances that have confused passengers and have rendered the station hard to use, especially for transfers between the 4, 5 and the A, C lines.

"There are 275,000 movements a day in the facility and a series of confusing ramps, and it is a common place to get lost," Wheeler said. "The transfer itself is very narrow where the mezzanine meets the northbound [4, 5] line."

This narrow transfer point results in a crush of commuters jamming the first two cars of the train, which causes delays while the trains accommodate the passengers, he added.

Uday Durg, the MTA/NYCT program manager for the Fulton Street Transit Center, said there's another problem because "the street entrances are close to storefronts so passengers cannot really see them. They are dark and narrow."

All of that will begin to change in December when construction will begin on the $750 million Fulton Street Transit Center.

The stations that make up the transit center will begin to be renovated and the confusing transfer points will be remade to allow a smoother flow of passengers.

In addition, connections to the permanent PATH station, which was designed by architect Santiago Calatrava, will be established under Dey Street. The underground tunnel, which will be design-built along Dey Street, will run approximately 400 ft. and it will be 40 ft. wide by 18 ft. high. The Dey Street connection will also connect to the R, W, 1, 9 and E trains.

Retail will not be considered for the tunnel because the MTA says it will need all of the space for passenger traffic. "One enhancement that will be considered is the addition of moving sidewalks," Wheeler said.

The centerpiece of the new station will be a new grand entrance that will be established east of Broadway between Fulton and John streets. "It will be a focal point that is unique and enhance civic space as well as the life of Lower Manhattan," Durg said.

The new 110-ft.-tall building will include an oculus, or a round window, that will make up the roof and will allow light to penetrate into the station and its concourse.

"There is a movement all over the world to bring more natural light into subway stations," Palmer said.

With the Fulton Street Transit Center, NYCT will also have a major street presence, which is rare, Wheeler said. "We have had two similar projects before, one is Times Square and the other is the Atlantic Terminal project in Brooklyn," he added.

Another piece of the project is the restoration of the Corbin Building, which was constructed in the 1880s and is a historic landmark. "The Corbin Building will be preserved and tied into the permanent project," said Ray Finnegan, project director for the Fulton Street Transportation Center, Parsons Brinckerhoff. "It's a very exciting part of the job."

A joint venture of Parsons Brinckerhoff and Bovis Lend Lease, both of New York, N.Y., will serve as construction managers on the project.
"We decided a good approach was to use our infrastructure talents and the building talents of Bovis Lend Lease," Finnegan said.

In addition, Finnegan said that the work will not impede rush hour and will be as environmentally friendly as possible through the use of low-sulfur fuels. He added that it also will adhere to the city's new noise code.

Part of the restoration will include preserving the arches that make up the first floor, Wheeler said. "We will also preserve and put into public view the foundation of the Corbin Building, which is made up of a series of jack arches," he added.

Currently, the Fulton Street Transit Center is in a pre-engineering phase that will be completed by December, Durg said. Then the project will move into final design and construction.

"We will have seven contract packages that will be staggered from December to March," Durg added. Construction is expected to be completed in December 2007.

November 7th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Hey folks,

This transit center project is very exciting and appears will be worth every penny spent. Outstanding! The all-new infrastructure in and around the new WTC simply will most certainly be a catalyst for redevelopment in a very big way. And yes, even though I'm a big fan of highway construction/expansion, I am thrilled to see this level of investment -- yes, investment -- in our mass transit. Way to go!

November 7th, 2004, 07:17 PM
PS... why do so many New Yorkers whine about the price of a subway ride? The current fare is one of the best deals on planet Earth! One ride is worth at least three times what is currently being charged. Stop the whining, cough up the extra 50 cents or so, and INVEST in your subway system!

November 8th, 2004, 01:04 PM
PS... why do so many New Yorkers whine about the price of a subway ride? The current fare is one of the best deals on planet Earth! One ride is worth at least three times what is currently being charged. Stop the whining, cough up the extra 50 cents or so, and INVEST in your subway system!

A comment that, clearly, can only come from someone who doesn't live or work here. Just plain ignorant and an indirect attack on the working poor.

One ride is worth is at least three times what is being charged? I bet you wouldn't be willing to say that to a home health aide making minimum wage ($5.15/hour). You are suggesting that it is reasonable that the first 11 hours of that person's work week (assuming they pay no payroll taxes - including Social Security taxes) should be a transportation cost. Or perhaps, you are a person who thinks these leeches on welfare ought to get off the public dole and get a job - even a minimum wage job - just to see the first $60 of their $206 gross pay got to "investing" in the subway.

Think before you speak.

November 8th, 2004, 02:41 PM
PS... why do so many New Yorkers whine about the price of a subway ride? The current fare is one of the best deals on planet Earth! One ride is worth at least three times what is currently being charged. Stop the whining, cough up the extra 50 cents or so, and INVEST in your subway system!

Bob, all of New York City is not the high society of Donald Trump and his ilk. It's populated by working class families trying to make ends meet in a very expensive town. It's populated by elderly on fixed incomes. It's populated by students with NO income. Assuming these kinds of people are commuting using the subways, adding $.50 per ride means an extra $250 or so a year lost. To some people, that's a lot. Be tolerant of their needs.

November 8th, 2004, 03:59 PM
PS... why do so many New Yorkers whine about the price of a subway ride? The current fare is one of the best deals on planet Earth! One ride is worth at least three times what is currently being charged. Stop the whining, cough up the extra 50 cents or so, and INVEST in your subway system!

To add to the above comments, I would also note that NYCers pay almost 100% of the cost of their subway rides through their subway fares, wherease suburbanites taking the MetroNorth and Long Island Rail, which are operated by the same agency as the NYC subway system (the MTA), receive a considerable subsidy (before the last set of fare increases, almost 50%). I think NYCers have a genuine grievance as to why their train fares are so disproportionately high as compared to the cost of the running the system, versus the fares paid by suburbanites.

November 8th, 2004, 04:47 PM
To add this: I'm a little tired of how expenses like tokens and postage stamps seem to rise in such large percentages. The 50 cent rise is 33% rise. But generally, raises seem to come in increments of 3-5 percent.

November 8th, 2004, 05:04 PM
Blame Pataki. He basically forced the MTA to borrow so much over the last years that debt repayment is going to be close to 1 billion dollars a year in the coming few years. That's a billion dollars a year that can't be spent on real, worhwhile things.

November 8th, 2004, 05:31 PM
Yep, one ride is worth at least three times the current cost. If you think the subway fare is expensive, try to travel the same distance via taxi. Or, via a personal automobile. No matter how you slant it, the subway is a good deal. Particularly for the working poor.

Now, as to the "foaming at the mouth" types who responded earlier... can't anybody take an alternative view without you... foaming at the mouth?? Why are you against investment in mass transit?

November 8th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Although it's unpopular, I support fare hikes. I'd rather pay more and have good service.

TLOZ Link5
November 8th, 2004, 06:22 PM
Although it's unpopular, I support fare hikes. I'd rather pay more and have good service.

But that's the problem. We'll be paying more for the same, if not worse, service.

November 8th, 2004, 07:33 PM
The MTA wants to raise faire's while also cutting service, it doesnt add up. I wonder if its ever been proposed for the city to buy the MTA?

November 8th, 2004, 07:59 PM
It adds up if you factor in capital expenditures. It's explained here. (http://forums.wirednewyork.com/viewtopic.php?t=236&start=15)

It's not just the fare increases that make people irate, but that coupled with the MTAs inability to control its finances. A quote from a recent NY Times article:

The report by State Comptroller Alan G. Hevesi said the authority, with an $8.4 billion budget, was doing little to reduce an overstaffed headquarters that includes, for example, a "budget and accounting" staff of 359 people. By comparison, the city, with a $47 billion budget, has 257 employees in its Office of Management and Budget.

The comptroller's report also found that the authority had 698 people working in human resources, 444 in "public relations and marketing" and 443 in its legal department, and spent $10 million in recent years on outside law firms.

November 8th, 2004, 10:41 PM
Funny that they have 444 people in their PR & marketing department and yet we all know they are bloated and corrupt. Those 444 should get to work thinking up a smokescreen.

I've never understood why monopoly public services & utilities spend money on marketing. Would we forget about the subway?

November 9th, 2004, 07:32 AM
Yep, one ride is worth at least three times the current cost. If you think the subway fare is expensive, try to travel the same distance via taxi. Or, via a personal automobile. No matter how you slant it, the subway is a good deal. Particularly for the working poor.

Now, as to the "foaming at the mouth" types who responded earlier... can't anybody take an alternative view without you... foaming at the mouth?? Why are you against investment in mass transit?

...said the man from Bridgeport, CT.

November 9th, 2004, 07:59 AM
The MTA wants to raise faire's while also cutting service, it doesnt add up. I wonder if its ever been proposed for the city to buy the MTA?

The MTA recently (a couple of days I think) backed off from that stance a bit. But this agency has been playing that game for a long time. They promise to cut service and raise fares by so much, only to "settle" for less.

November 9th, 2004, 08:54 AM

Staten Island Riders Unimpressed by Plan to Limit Fare Hike

November 9, 2004

If officials of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority were expecting a warm reception from riders on Staten Island for scaling back the agency's proposed fare increases and service cuts, they were mistaken.

At a public hearing there yesterday, the first one the authority has held since it announced a few days ago that it would need to raise fares only about half as much as it had feared, a procession of commuters, mass transit advocates and elected officials took the agency to task for bus fare increases that they say leave residents of Staten Island bearing the brunt of closing a multibillion-dollar budget gap.

Carolann Granata, 49, who said it takes her an hour and 20 minutes each way on an express bus to get to her job in Manhattan, where she works with developmentally disabled people, begged the authority's board members not to increase the fare to $5, from $4.

"The express bus is our only connection to Manhattan," she told the board at the hearing at Michael J. Petrides School in Todt Hill. "This is our subway. It is not a luxury service. It's a necessity."

For months, the authority said it might have to increase the express bus fare to $6 to help close the budget gap, one of several proposed increases, which include raising the price of the unlimited-ride MetroCard and the tolls on the agency's bridges and tunnels. But last week, authority officials said that an extra $400 million in revenue could be used to cushion the express bus fare increase by a dollar, at least for the next year.

Few of those at the meeting yesterday were grateful for the reprieve. Instead, several speakers asked why express bus riders, most of whom live on Staten Island, would be hit with the biggest fare increase in the system - 25 percent - on top of a 33 percent fare increase last year, when the fare went to $4 from $3. The authority wants to increase the price of a 30-day MetroCard for the subways and regular buses by 14 percent, and of tickets on its commuter railroads by 5 percent.

"To some people, this news was a relief," said City Councilman Michael E. McMahon, a Democrat. "To me, it is a sign of the complete ineptitude with which this agency is run."

The board members did not respond to the comments, which they are supposed to consider before they vote on the increases at their meeting next month.

There will be two more hearings today at 4 p.m., one at El Museo del Barrio, at Fifth Avenue and 104th Street, the other at the Hilton hotel in Melville, on Long Island, and two more tomorrow.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


S.I. to MTA: You take a hike!

Embittered Staten Islanders complained last night that the only time the MTA pays them attention is when it wants to jack up fares and tolls.
The gripe session, at the Michael J. Petrides School, came at the first of five hearings to get rider input on proposed toll and fare hikes.

Borough residents and leaders said they understand the state-run agency is strapped, but they called for better leadership instead of higher rates.

"Where is George Pataki in all of this?" asked Carolann Granata, 49, who complained that express buses serving her borough are slated to rise 25%, while suburban fares are going up just 5%.

Pataki and the MTA are "the reverse Robin Hood," added Councilman Michael McMahon (D-Staten Island). "They are taking from the poor people of Staten Island and giving it to the more affluent people of Westchester, Connecticut and Long Island."

The MTA is proposing to raise fares on subways, buses and commuter railroads, and increase tolls on its bridges and tunnels, including the Verrazano Bridge and the Midtown Tunnel.

The proposed increases - which follow fare and toll hikes last year - are part of a plan to close a 2005 budget gap that officials say is the result of rising expenses and lower-than-anticipated revenues.

Another hearing is scheduled today at El Museo del Barrio, Manhattan, at 4 p.m.

November 9th, 2004, 10:26 AM
We rabid dogs are barking up the wrong tree.

The topic here is the trasnsit center. Continue discussion of MTA finances and fares here. (http://forums.wirednewyork.com/viewtopic.php?t=1931&start=15)

November 27th, 2004, 07:22 PM
From Downtown Express

Gov Pataki announced:

Subway construction on the $750 million Fulton Transit Center and $400 million South Ferry station will begin in December. The Fulton project will begin with the 2,3 lines at Fulton and Nassau Sts. and the south entrance to the 4,5 stop at Maiden Lane and Broadway.

February 9th, 2005, 02:47 PM
I apologize for reviving an old thread, but this has started construction, right?

February 9th, 2005, 04:43 PM
I apologize for reviving an old thread, but this has started construction, right?

Hi, amigo.

It has not started construction yet. I work down the street from this site and can't wait for the mierda at the site to be levelled!

February 9th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Oh ok, Thanks London :)

February 9th, 2005, 05:45 PM
Construction won't begin at the 2 Fulton St buildings, but with the outermost stations and passageways.

From the EIS:
1. Station rehabilitation, new entrances, elevators.
2. Dey St passageway construction starts mid 2005.
3. Late 2005 - early 2006: Demolition and clearing of sites of entry building and Dey St Plaza.
4. Entry building construction starts mid-2006.

February 9th, 2005, 05:49 PM

February 9th, 2005, 05:55 PM

February 25th, 2005, 05:09 PM

Chiropractor wary of forced move for train center


By Angela Benfield

When Antoinette Gragnano, a gregarious elderly woman, was looking for a chiropractor, she needed someone close by. Gragnano, who has lived in Lower Manhattan for all of her life, got a referral from a friend to try Dr. Haber, whose Financial District chiropractic office is located in the Corbin building on Broadway and John St. With her home being just a stone’s throw away on Park Row, she gave him a try.

“I liked him right away because he did what I asked him to do,” Gragnano says. “Now, I feel wonderful.”

For the past six years, Gragnanohas been getting adjustments there. Perky and independent, she likes to keep busy, but getting around is not that easy sometimes. “I’m 80 years old, and I can’t travel too much, so I’m glad that he’s very close,” she says of Gary Haber. The brief walk has made her visits possible, and the chiropractic care has become a necessity for her. “I’ve become really dependent on him,” she adds.

Unfortunately, Gragnanomay not be able to continue to get these treatments.

“We are going to be displaced,” says Haber, who has a doctorate in chiropractic care. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority released its final environmental impact statement on the $750 million Fulton Transit Center in December, and more than 40 tenants of the Corbin building will have to move by November of this year. “I don’t like the idea, it’s like getting booted out of your own home,” he adds.

Using the eminent domain law, the M.T.A. is purchasing the Corbin Building at an estimated $50 million. It will be the cornerstone of the new transit center, and the building’s exterior will be restored during the transition. The arches of the building will be converted into grand entryways, and an escalator leading from street level into the subway station will be installed.

But, the M.T.A. is also claiming the upper floors of the building as well as the space needed for the transit hub. Once the building is renovated and the transit center is complete, they can rent out the offices above market value.

“Why aren’t we being offered the ability to return to the space?” Haber says. This news came as a real blow to him. Haber also lives in Lower Manhattan and was dedicated to staying and rebuilding his business after 9/11. “I’ve been down here for a long time; there’s thousands of people I met here over the years and I don’t want to go,” he adds.

“He’s a staple in the neighborhood,” says Nadege Bazin, a massage therapist who shares space in his office. “If we didn’t have to move, we’d stay there forever,” she adds.

Haber, president of the New York State Chiropractic Association, has been a tenant of the Corbin Building for close to 15 years. He feels it is unnecessary to relocate when his office is on the sixth floor of the building, and the transit center will be at street level and below ground. “Some proposals would have let us remain in the building, which of course, is what we were hoping for,” he says.

His Downtown location and the many types of treatments he has available are what has attracted Haber’s patients over the years. In addition to chiropractic care and massage therapy, there is also an acupuncturist on staff.

“I had a good feeling when I came to this place,” says Jeanette Kim, the acupuncturist. “It’s devastating [to move] because we put a lot of work into it,”

Although the M.T.A. is required to find Haber a new space, he is worried that he will not be able to keep up the “goodwill” he has built with his patients over the years. The moving itself will take time away from his practice, and the new location may not have the same convenience and quality as his office in the Corbin Building. However, he tries to remain optimistic. “Hopefully, they’ll find a space within a few blocks and we won’t skip a beat,” he adds.

“I hope he stays in the neighborhood,” Gragnano says. “If he had to move too far, I couldn’t go anymore,” she adds.

“The Fulton Street Transit Center is going to be a great thing for the community, but there’s always going to be winners and losers,” Haber says. “We hope that we come out of this okay.”

May 26th, 2005, 12:46 PM
. . . raising rates, declining service, delays, poor performance, inefficiencies and now this?!!
Subway hub flub

Overruns curb vision for Fulton St. station


The MTA's Fulton Street Transit Center - envisioned as an inspiring subway hub and a lower Manhattan beacon - has fallen a year behind schedule and is being scaled back to stay on budget.
The completion date has been pushed to December 2008, agency documents show.

The steel-and-glass dome that was to rise to a peak of 110 feet above street level from within the aboveground entrance hall - on Broadway between Fulton and John Sts. - will be significantly smaller, said Mysore Nagaraja, president of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Capital Construction Co.

The width of the underground Dey St. passageway to subway lines to the west will be 29 feet wide, not 40 feet.

Plans had to be scaled back because projected costs, including real estate acquisitions, have soared beyond the $750 million budget, officials said.

"What we are saying now is the new design is the economically elegant design," Nagaraja said.

The MTA board will be asked next month to give approval for work on the final design to begin.

The delay stems from the extensive environmental review process mandated by the federal government, Nagaraja said.

That took longer than expected and slowed progress on necessary property acquisitions.

The complex currently is a dingy, mazelike combination of several separate stations that serve 300,000 riders daily. Trains on the 2, 3, 4, 5, A, C, J, M and Z lines stop there.

Plans call for a natural light-infused station, with sunlight reaching platforms, and easier connections, officials say.

"It's going to be beautiful. It's going to change the landscape of lower Manhattan," Nagaraja promised.

But Beverly Dolinksy, head of the New York City Transit Riders Council, was concerned.

"I'm not happy that they are scaling it back and not happy about the delay, either," she said. "It's another delay in the rebuilding of downtown. This was supposed to be making a statement for present and future generations."

Originally published on May 26, 2005

May 26th, 2005, 01:24 PM
From a recent NewYork Times article

The Underground Economy: Subway Retailing
The Fulton Street Station in Lower Manhattan.
Frances Roberts
The Fulton Street Station in Lower Manhattan.
Published: May 22, 2005


....The station is being designed by Grimshaw Architects, which recently presented a modified version to a group of planners and architects assembled by the New York chapter of the American Institute of Architects. People who have seen the latest plans declined to comment on the record because it hasn't yet been publicly released, but indicate that the roof has been scaled back to keep the station on budget. Still, people familiar with the project say it has remained largely intact and it is still widely regard as the M.T.A.'s most ambitious effort to date.

"The Fulton station is more than a rehab," said William Wheeler, director of special project development and planning for the M.T.A. "One of the goals we have is to provide for continued activity that contributes to street life."


June 2nd, 2005, 06:36 AM
Fulton Transit Center Delays
Posted by Jen Chung


The Fulton Street Transit Center, the subway hub project announced a year ago, has fallen a year behind schedule - and the MTA is scaling back the project due to budget constraints. The Daily News reports that the "steel-and-glass dome that was to rise to a peak of 110 feet above street level from within the aboveground entrance hall - on Broadway between Fulton and John Sts. - will be significantly smaller," and many of the halls connecting the nine different subway lines will be narrowed (from 40 feet to 29 feet). Some of the problems have been due to longer and more expensive than expected real estate acquisitions, since they need to tunnel around and create new entrances; the MTA is still working with a $750 million budget. The MTA is now saying "the new design is the economically elegant design," which Gothamist thinks is hilarious. Next time we present a lower budget for anything, we'll call it the "economically elegant" way to go. It looks like the transit center will be open in 2008, which means that when you put it through the MTA-time-calculator, think some time in 2009 instead.

One of the highlights of the new Fulton Street Transit Center design is that there will be a lot of natural sunlight. Learn more from the MTA.

June 2nd, 2005, 02:55 PM
The bids on the Dey St Concourse were to be opened on 4/05/05. Now that they mention that it is being narrowed, I wonder if the original bid was cancelled.

June 28th, 2005, 10:46 PM
June 29, 2005
M.T.A. Scales Back Lower Manhattan Transit Complex, Citing Cost

When the design of the Fulton Street Transit Center was unveiled in May 2004, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority called it one of its most architecturally significant undertakings in generations.

The proposed subway complex, capped by a conical steel-and-glass dome emerging from a boxlike pavilion on the southeast corner of Broadway and Fulton Street, was to be a Grand Central Terminal for Lower Manhattan, unifying five haphazardly linked subway lines and providing an underground connection to the World Trade Center transportation hub being designed by the architect Santiago Calatrava.

"It will be the pre-eminent New York City transit facility of our time, a civic structure of the highest architectural quality," the chief architect at New York City Transit, Porie Saikia-Eapen, said at a public forum in January.

Now, because of budget considerations, the ambitious design has been scaled back, the authority announced on Monday. The dome, designed to transmit light to the subterranean platforms, is now far less prominent. A proposed link between the Cortlandt Street station on the R and W lines and the World Trade Center terminus on the E has been scuttled. A concourse under Dey Street, connecting the trade center site to the west with the subway depot to the east, will be narrower than initially planned.

The changes, if not enormous, still constitute one more setback for the broader post-Sept. 11 vision of downtown rebirth, an effort that has been beset by numerous delays and miscalculations.

The authority insists that it will still realize the project's major goals: clearer transfers between the A, C, E, J, M, R, W and Z and Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 5 lines; a link between those subway lines and the trade center site; better access for disabled riders; and a major street-level entrance to a critical transit hub that is used for 275,000 passenger entries, exits and transfers each day.

The most noticeable revision to the original design is in the crystalline dome, with an opening for light at its peak. The dome is now considerably shorter and smaller, although its exact dimensions have not been decided.

"What we tried to do was preserve the goal of capturing daylight and sending it down to the lowest levels of the transit system, and at the same time come up with efficiencies that would allow us to save cost," said William M. Wheeler Jr., the authority's planning director.

The projected budget had grown from $750 million to $825 million. The project is being financed almost exclusively from the $4.5 billion in grants allocated for downtown rebuilding. Even with the design changes, the new projected cost is $785 million, and the authority still has to find money to cover any costs over the original budget.

The project itself is at least one year behind schedule. Completion of the final design, initially set for last October, has been pushed ahead to next May, although construction on two elements - new southern entrances to the Nos. 4 and 5 lines at Cortlandt Street and Maiden Lane, and rehabilitation of the Fulton Street station on the Nos. 2 and 3 - started in January.

The project is supposed to be built by December 2008. Today, the authority's board is scheduled to approve a $128 million contract with Slattery Skanska, a unit of the Swedish construction firm Skanska, to build the concourse under Dey Street.

Some people involved in the project spoke of the new design in positive terms yesterday.

"It will be different," said James Carpenter, a designer who is known for his use of light and whose firm is working on the dome. "But I think it will be equally engaging and activating for the space." A principal at the lead architectural firm, Grimshaw, did not respond to a request for comment.

The executive director of the New York chapter of the American Institute of Architects, Fredric M. Bell, said he liked the smaller dome. "If anything, I thought the proportion was better," he said. "The earlier manifestation of the project was totally dominated by the dome."

Mr. Wheeler, the authority's planning director, said the decision to eliminate the new passageway between the Cortlandt Street station and the World Trade Center station was a difficult one. The project's aim had been to connect as many of the subway lines in the area as possible. But, with pressing concerns about money, the authority determined that riders would be able to use the new PATH station designed by Mr. Calatrava to make the connection between the two subway lines with no great difficulty.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

June 28th, 2005, 10:49 PM
Let's see... Sccaling back due to cost overruns...

But, $200M to Ratner's PRIVATE development.

$600M offered to the Jets.

Hundred of millions to the Yankees and Mets.

It's such crap. The Downtown Revitalization Plan is the biggest "Bait & Switch" ever pulled.

TLOZ Link5
June 28th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Extremely disappointing. Has work even started at all?

June 29th, 2005, 09:17 AM
Just a small-$ 35 mil- contract to rehab the 2/3 station at Fulton/William St.

This was necessary even if the larger project wasn't built.

June 29th, 2005, 09:34 AM
One thing I noted in the Times' article-it states that the MTA board is supposed to meet to vote on the contract award for the Dey St Connection.

This contract was supposed to be opened in April. The bid results-with the winning losing bidders and amounts-were never posted on the MTA site as is usual.

June 29th, 2005, 07:58 PM
The scale-back is a disappointment. MTA has a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do it right, to make a real investment in the future of lower Manhattan. Infrastructure costs money. Users should be willing to pay.

MTA needs to get away from single-fare ASAP, and go to a Washington Metro adjusted/extent of usage fare system.

July 19th, 2005, 09:22 PM
From NY1 July 19, 2005

NY1 Exclusive: MTA Sends Notice To Businesses Being Forced Out By New Transit Hub

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has officially begun the process of buying up several properties in Lower Manhattan to make way for a new downtown transit hub. That means the clock is ticking for dozens of businesses being displaced by the project. NY1’s Bobby Cuza filed this exclusive report.

Businesses on Broadway have known for awhile now the end was near, their buildings destined for the wrecking ball to make way for the new Fulton Street Transit Center. Now their days are numbered - literally.

Late last month, storeowners received their 90-day notice from the MTA informing them they could have to vacate the property as soon as September 29.

“We were supposed to open up on September 12, 2001, and we've been here ever since and really working with other small companies in the area to revitalize the area,” Cookie Island owner Geoff Feder said Tuesday. “It's just a bitter bill to swallow, the fact that you're going to be basically kicked out in the street."

The MTA has told businesses not to take the 90 days notice literally, because they might possibly have a few extra months. But MTA officials have also said they want to relocate all tenants west of Broadway by February at the latest, and those east of Broadway by August of next year.

Altogether, more than 120 tenants in the area are being displaced. The MTA says it wants to negotiate with property owners rather than take the buildings by eminent domain.

Meanwhile, tenants like Feder are entitled to relocation assistance, including the cost of any fixtures they installed at their business. But many say the MTA's initial offer was too low.

“For us to reopen with the devalued prices, it's impossible,” said Feder. “It's just not possible, and I’m afraid that it will bankrupt the company."

“They make it sound easy to relocate,” said New York Stocking Exchange co-owner Harry Sutton. “But we built up a business for 10 years over here, and it's not going to be easy to reproduce that in another area."

In the meantime, the MTA has started taking the necessary steps to take title of these properties. It all leaves a bad taste in the mouth of storeowners who weathered 9/11 and still stayed put in this area.

"It's miserable, just the thought that after all that I'm at a dead end now and I've got to go start over somewhere else,” says New York Stocking Exchange co-owner David Sutton.

Some construction underground for the project already began earlier this year. The entire Fulton Street Transit Center is scheduled for completion in 2008.

- Bobby Cuza

July 19th, 2005, 10:25 PM
This is great news! Hopefully, the other crappy buildings on the west side of B'Way will be razed and replaced by a residential tower. Those buildings are about three stories tall and dilapidated. Two of them, however, could be restored and incorporated into the facade of a new tower. One of the two was built in 1865.

July 20th, 2005, 12:02 AM
120 businesses forced out of Lower Manhattan for a glassier subway station

July 20th, 2005, 12:52 AM
It's not like they don't have anywhere to move to in that emptying part of the city.

July 20th, 2005, 07:58 AM
From LowerManhattan.info:

MTA Retools Fulton Street Transit Center's Design
July 19, 2005


Dey Street Concourse

In a presentation to Community Board 1 (CB1) last week, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's (MTA (http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/global/contact/#nys)) capital planners outlined the revised design scheme for the ambitious Fulton Street Transit Center (http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/project_updates/fulton_street_transit_center_17608.asp). The new plan scales back several features to reduce the project's overall budget by $40 million, while keeping most of the key elements that will link 12 subway lines and the World Trade Center PATH station (http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/looking_ahead/wtc_transportation.asp).
MTA representatives William Wheeler, director of project development, and Lois Tendler, director of government and community relations, walked through the changes with the CB1 board and other downtown stakeholders on July 13.

Visually, the most notable change calls for a smaller glass-and-steel oculus or "cone" at the center's Broadway and Fulton Street main entrance. Though scaled back in size, the oculus will still let in natural light down to the lower-level subway platforms, and will rearrange the station's operations and mechanical spaces. In addition, the new entrance configuration will bring part of the 23,500 square feet of retail space closer to the sidewalk, making shops more visible to pedestrians.

The Dey Street tunnel -- which connects the main station to the R/W lines at Cortlandt Street -- also has been reduced in size, with 11 feet trimmed off of its width to better fit within underground infrastructure. Meanwhile, the corridor that would link the R/W to the E line has been eliminated altogether, along with the free subway transfer it would have created.
In the main transfer area of the station, called the "mixing bowl," planners will widen the mezzanine for better access to the A and C lines. Currently, those lines are accessible via long ramps and stairwells interconnected with the J/M/Z and 4/5 train platforms.

The MTA continues to make steady progress to acquire real estate for the transit center, assist in tenant relocation, and install underpinnings to stabilize neighboring buildings' foundations.

In particular, the MTA is working with a special contracting team for the preservation and incorporation of the Corbin Building into the design. The nine-story Corbin Building (at John Street and Broadway) is one of Lower Manhattan's unique pieces of architecture. The 1889 structure was designed by one of the first skyscraper architects, Francis Kimball, and is only 20 feet wide but 160 feet long along John Street.

The Fulton Street Transit Center's construction will occur in phases, the first of which began in winter 2004 at Broadway at Maiden Lane (on the east) and Liberty Street (on the west), where new entrances to the southern end of the 4/5 platform are being built.

The main entrance "cone" will be shortened and reorganized

Work on the Dey Street tunnel is also recently underway, and will take place through July 2007. As part of its construction, the Cortlandt Street station will close for six months beginning in mid-to-late August 2005.
Other elements, such as foundation and superstructure (http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/global/construction_talk/#superstructure) work for the main entrance and new A/C mezzanine construction, will take place from 2006 until the project's completion in winter 2008.

The MTA is working with the Dept. of Transportation (http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/global/contact/#nys) to ensure accessibility for neighborhood businesses, as well as to maintain traffic lanes on Broadway and cross streets. The authority also is addressing community and environmental issues to ensure that noise and dust is minimized during construction, and that contractors use low-sulfur-fuel equipment and recycled material wherever possible.

With the changes, the transit center's revised budget comes to $785 million. Wheeler explained that the design changes do not affect the ultimate goal of making the station easier to navigate and access from street level. "It's up-to-date, it's modern, and it's comprehensive," he said.

As part of the community outreach initiative for the Fulton Street Transit Center, the MTA has launched a task force that downtown stakeholders are invited to join. The task force's next meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, July 20 at 10 a.m. at MTA headquarters (2 Broadway at Bowling Green). To RSVP for the meeting or to be added to the mailing list, contact Community Relations Director Lois Tendler at (646) 252-2660.

July 20th, 2005, 09:34 AM
That sh*t is wack....Hmmm...not sure whether its funny or annoying to see projects get scaled down like that and in the end not live up to the expectations that would have more than justified the inconveniences of moving everyone "in the way" out of the way.

July 20th, 2005, 10:08 AM
In the end, it will be a brick fortress with a 2ft by 3ft, 3inch thick, opague plastic, permanently sealed skylight covered over by pigeon crap.

July 20th, 2005, 10:24 AM
^LOL! Gee, and I thought I was cynical. ;)

July 20th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Of course the person who makes out the most in this is the MTA chairman, Mr. Kalikow, who owns 195 Broadway which is one of the closest properties not getting forced out. Not sure how the ethics board cleared this, but maybe some of these 120 business' that are being removed can get a good deal at 195 Broadway. Yeah right!

July 20th, 2005, 11:16 AM
I am glad to see these businesses forced out. I work down the street from this site and walk by these disgusting businesses every day. They are remnants from NY's days in the toilet, as are the buildings that they occupy. NY needs to redevelop this prime real estate.

July 20th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Of course the person who makes out the most in this is the MTA chairman, Mr. Kalikow, who owns 195 Broadway which is one of the closest properties not getting forced out. Not sure how the ethics board cleared this ...

I didn't know this...but of course that's how these things play out!

As to the ethics board: Kalikow and the gang probably talked it out over drinks at the Club and everyone agreed: "Where is there a problem here?"

Seemingly there is never a conflict of interest when the interest in question is to make certain that the big guys make lots of money...

Aint New York grand?!?!?

July 20th, 2005, 12:18 PM
I am glad to see these businesses forced out. I work down the street from this site and walk by these disgusting businesses every day. They are remnants from NY's days in the toilet, as are the buildings that they occupy. NY needs to redevelop this prime real estate.

Lower Manhattan's Broadway canyon of is precious. There is nothing like it in the world. People travel form all over the world to experience it. Demolishing a whole block of it, in the style of a 1960's "redevelopment" project, to put up a pointless glass box, is just a crying shame. The MTA has made abundantly clear its inability to maintain the properties it already has. NYC's subway stations are, for the most part, filthy and shabby. There is no reason to believe it will do any better job maintaining this one. The stores on that stretch of Broadway may not be sufficiently upscale for some, but the New York process of gentrification will eventually address that. The MTA should drop the above-ground aspect of this project, and just fix the underground connections. The 120 small businesses, which have chosen to remain in Downtown rather than flee like many of the more moneyed interests, should be allowed to stay. It is a wrong thing that the MTA is doing.

July 20th, 2005, 12:25 PM
There is a perception that people do not prefer to work downtown, and halting new development will only make this worse. The businesses that are lost there will be replaced by new ones or these 120 tenants will try the new hub.

July 20th, 2005, 12:57 PM
BPC: That stretch of cheap stores and dilapidated buildings merits the wrecking ball.

July 20th, 2005, 01:32 PM
I really have to disagree with BPC's assessment of the subway stations in NYC. Maintenance is becoming a bigger issue, but overall I think the MTA did a great job on some of it's latest hub projects like Atlantic Terminal, Stillwell Avenue and the continuing Times Square Project.

That stretch of stores doesn't harken back to anything significant in New York's past and the station needs to be redesigned to allow easy transfer as a hub station. The competing subways that created these separate stations and the mish mash of prison-like corridors is not only confusing - it is also intimidating. Fulton Street Station - not the Calavatra Station - is the major Downtown hub and i think the creation of a recognizable entry and station shows a stronger sense to public service than we've seen in years in Downtown, by the MTA. And, I think plans to downsize it are short-sighted, foolish and send the wrong message to both residents, businesses and developers.

July 20th, 2005, 02:14 PM
What are these 120 businesses comprised of? Office tenants and retail are sure to be able to find new spaces downtown.

July 20th, 2005, 06:49 PM
50 are shoe shines
50 are newstands

The rest I don't know.

July 20th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Without the connection of the R/W line and E line, I don't think this project is justified. I'd be okay with the shorter dome and narrower passageway, but not along with the elimination of that connection.

July 21st, 2005, 09:52 AM
I agree that they might as well make it an all encompassing hub - the cost now will seem like a pittance in years to come. But, one can argue that with the connection to the A and C, E riders can connect at other stations, like West 4th.

July 21st, 2005, 11:43 AM
Without the connection of the R/W line and E line, I don't think this project is justified. I'd be okay with the shorter dome and narrower passageway, but not along with the elimination of that connection.

Thank you....

July 22nd, 2005, 07:03 PM

Cortlandt station to close in August for Fulton hub project

The new Fulton Transit hub will eventually transform Downtown into the Grand Central Station of Lower Manhattan, but for the foreseeable future getting around the neighborhood is going to be more cumbersome than ever.

Beginning in mid August, the Cortlandt St. station on the R and W lines will close for six to nine months while the Metropolitan Transit Authority begins work on a new Dey St. passageway connecting Cortlandt St. with the new PATH station, the World Trade Center site and the rest of the Fulton St. complex to the east at Broadway.

Plans to connect the R and W lines with the E line at Chambers St. were scrapped last month, along with other elements of the plan, to keep the $750 million project within budget. With the design scaled back, the project is now expected to cost $785 million, down from $825 million, although additional changes may occur in the future.

“We are modifying the design as we go along,” said William Wheeler, director of special project development for the M.T.A., at a recent Community Board 1 meeting.

Work on Dey St. will begin this month and continue through Oct. 2007 and at least one lane of vehicular traffic will remain open during the construction period. The M.T.A. will generally work on the project from 7 a.m. until 10 p.m. Monday through Friday and from 10 a.m. until 10 p.m. on weekends as needed.

Work began on the project in January and is expected to continue through 2008, with periodic train line closures and re-routings mainly on nights and weekends.

—Ronda Kaysen

July 24th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Merchants Who Stayed After 9/11 Are Now Told to Go


Published: July 24, 2005

Eight retail tenants in two buildings at Broadway and Dey Street have been notified by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority that they must leave to make way for the planned Fulton Street Transit Center, the agency said last week.

The merchants, the first among dozens who will be displaced, were sent letters in late June indicating that the authority would exercise its authority under eminent domain to force them out in as little as 90 days, but they have since been notified that they will probably be allowed to stay open until after the all-important December shopping season.

Last week, two of the affected merchants said they were being treated unfairly by the authority, even though they had agreed to provisions in their leases that give them little legal recourse.

"You would think, after what we've all been through, that the M.T.A. would show a little compassion," said Geoff Feder, co-owner of Cookie Island, at 189 Broadway, who received one of the 90-day notices.

The authority's initiative, reported on Wednesday by NY1 News, is one step in a complex process to acquire, clear out and demolish buildings near Fulton Street and Broadway to make way for the new Lower Manhattan subway complex, which is to coordinate five haphazardly linked subway lines.

The project, already delayed and scaled back from an architect's original vision, is to be completed by December 2008. Its budget, now projected at $785 million, is to be covered entirely by grants from the federal government.

Tom Kelly, a transportation authority spokesman, said that letters had been sent to the owners of stores at 189 and 191 Broadway, and reflected a policy that would apply to all merchants who are to be displaced.

He said the agency would compensate them for the value of their store fixtures, pay for moving expenses and offer the services of a relocation consultant.

"We are really trying to be fair and reasonable," Mr. Kelly said. But because the planned transportation complex is to be paid for by federal grants, he said, "we are bound by federal rules and regulations about compensation."

Harry Sutton, owner of the New York Stocking Exchange at 189 Broadway, who received one of the notices, said that the terms dictated by the agency would fall far short of compensating merchants for the higher rents many expect to pay elsewhere in Manhattan, or the losses, both financial and personal, they have sustained by remaining in business a block from ground zero.

"Our store was basically bombed out, and it took us four months to reopen," Mr. Sutton said. "When the politicians were saying, 'Come back downtown,' we were here losing money, and now that things seem to be improving a little, the same people are saying we have to leave."

Mr. Feder said the compensation offered by the authority was "just not enough to open another store."

"It would bankrupt us," he said. But because he, like the other affected merchants, had been warned of the authority's intentions well in advance, Mr. Feder said he has settled on an alternate business plan in which he will package his cookies to be sold in gourmet food stores, and move his bakery, perhaps to New Jersey.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

July 24th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Actually I think they all sell watches, lol, I've never seen anything interesting there. I agree with londonlawyer, that area is dirty and crowded. Build the hub and build it fast. It's very nice that the stores stayed after 9/11 but I don't really think it was because patriotic and everything. IMO they belong in Chinatown. A little off-topic but the Rector and Wall Street Stations could really use a facelift.

July 24th, 2005, 09:25 PM
I'm not sure that I agree that they should be ejected without regard The city can certainly find them space for comparable rent in one of the many empty retail spaces by other subway stations in the financial district.

July 26th, 2005, 08:52 AM
I agree that they might as well make it an all encompassing hub - the cost now will seem like a pittance in years to come. But, one can argue that with the connection to the A and C, E riders can connect at other stations, like West 4th.

There is no connection between the R/W and the A/C/E in Manhattan other than Times Square, and that's one of the longer transfers in the system.

It's ridiculous that two stations that are so close to each other with an existing indoor concourse connecting them lack a free transfer. All you'd have to do is change the fare control boundaries at the northern end of Cortlandt Street. Include the northern crossunder and a narrow walkway along the eastern edge of the PATH station inside fare control, and you have a free transfer. No additional corridors needed, people entering the R/W from PATH just swipe their Metrocards a few feet sooner. But, it requires coordination between the Port Authority and the MTA, so it probably won't happen.

August 30th, 2005, 08:35 PM

First Phase Of Fulton Street Transit Hub Now Underway

August 30, 2005

The first phase of the creation of a major transit center in Downtown Manhattan is now underway.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Governor George Pataki were on hand Tuesday afternoon to announce the groundbreaking for the Fulton Street Transit Center.

The goal of the $750 million project, all financed with federal money, is to make getting around downtown easier for straphangers.

When completed, the complex will connect virtually every mode of transit in Lower Manhattan, including 11 subway lines, as well as the PATH and ferry systems.

It will also be accessible to the disabled, and provide better light and air and overall more pleasant conditions to more than 275,000 daily riders. In addition, it will include a concourse under Dey Street.

“Maybe one of these days you will work in Lower Manhattan and you’ll take the subway to Fulton Street and you won’t have the same reaction I had back 30 years ago, saying, ‘My God. What a dingy, dark, crowded, confusing station,'" said Pataki. "You’ll come out of Fulton Street and say, ‘What an exciting place, fitting of Lower Manhattan, fitting of the greatest city in the world.’”

“Today, we’re beginning in earnest the makeover of a decades-old, complicated, confusing and cobbled-together network of stations and replacing it with one modern transit hub,” said Bloomberg.

This first phase of construction, which includes renovations to the 2, 3, 4 and 5 subway stations, is expected to be completed by 2006. The entire project is expected to be completed by 2008.

August 30th, 2005, 09:50 PM
I wonder if they've acquired the sites on B'way yet. I cannot wait for demolition of that shit to begin!

August 31st, 2005, 08:37 AM
Glad this is happening, however with lack of commercial tenants in the area, the only people that will benifit are those that are visting Ground Zero

August 31st, 2005, 09:55 AM
There are thousands of people who work within blocks of this station.

August 31st, 2005, 10:11 AM
Including yours truly, the crapmeister.

August 31st, 2005, 10:20 AM
Glad this is happening, however with lack of commercial tenants in the area, the only people that will benifit are those that are visting Ground ZeroI'm not going to ask where you pulled the information that led to your conclusion, but a simple check of the MTA project website would have informed you that

275,000 passengers a day use the Fulton station complex.

August 31st, 2005, 12:19 PM
Fantastic news! Finally something started to get built since 7 world trade center!


August 31st, 2005, 12:50 PM
Why doesn't this have a skyscraper on top? Why doesn't the MTA start acting like a developer?

August 31st, 2005, 12:59 PM
That question was asked at one of the CB presentation meetings. The short answer is that the complexity of the subway lines, and the necessity to keep the stations in operation would have added years and cost to the project if a new skyscraper foundation was added at the same time.

October 14th, 2005, 05:34 PM

Shops moving to make room for train project


Shops and offices in the Corbin Building, left, will soon have to leave for construction of the Fulton Transit Center.

By Ronda Kaysen

It’s never easy owning a small business in Manhattan. Rent is high, competition is fierce and customers are fickle. But some shop owners near the Fulton subway station face a new obstacle: eminent domain.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority plans to seize five properties near Fulton St. and Broadway under the powers of eminent domain in order to build a new $785 million Fulton Street Transit Center that will combine the confusing Broadway/Nassau/Fulton stations in to one and connect it to the Calatrava-designed PATH station at the W.T.C. In total, 114 commercial tenants will be displaced, including the tenants in the historic Corbin Building, which will be preserved. The first tenants, those west of Broadway, will likely be out by the end of the year. The remaining tenants should be gone by the following August, making way for the new hub, which will be completed in 2008.

Moving “is very risky,” said Mirza Mamur, standing behind the counter of his print and frame store, Glamour Art Gallery at 189 Broadway, a wall of picture frames behind him. “Everywhere you go you see stores going out of business and that worries me.” All six businesses in the two-story structure on the corner of Dey St. will move by the end of the year.

While property owners are entitled to receive fair market value for their properties, shopkeepers will only be reimbursed for moving costs up to $25,000. The M.T.A. will not compensate shopkeepers for the higher rents they might pay elsewhere and the time spent luring a new clientele to their business.

“We have a large team of people working with the tenants,” William Wheeler, director of project development for the M.T.A. told Community Board 1 in July. “I would characterize” — the tenant’s experience with eminent domain proceedings — “as a learning process. They’re getting used to what the benefits really are.”

Mamur has yet to notice any benefits. He opened his store, a narrow shop covered from floor to ceiling with framed prints, four years ago and worries he might not find such a well-traveled location with affordable rent elsewhere. Glamour Art Gallery is located a block away from the W.T.C. site and opened four months after Sept. 11. “We were targeting the future, for when they rebuild the World Trade Center site,” he said. He has revised his expectations: he now hopes to be able to stay through the holidays.

For some business owners, the cost of moving far outweighs anything the M.T.A. has offered. Mohamed Elfeky, owner of Manhattan Muffin in the Corbin building on John St. estimates it will cost as much as $800,000 to move his bakery. “It’s going to be hard,” said Elfeky. “We’re like a small factory here.” His bakery is located on two levels with ovens and mixers and other baking machinery. Elfeky has built a solid customer base over the 13 years his business has been in the Corbin and worries he will vanish with the store. “I’m going to be like a brand new store somewhere else,” he said.

James Logan, head librarian for the Christian Science Reading Room in the Corbin building worries his business will not be adequately compensated either. Although the price of moving — which will be covered — is modest, the cost of remodeling a new space is anything but. The reading room, which has been Downtown since 1911, moved into its John St. location in 2003 after it left 5 W.T.C. in 1999. It is freshly renovated with blond wood floors, new bookshelves, a computer room and plush furnishings. Logan declined to say how much the renovation cost, but said it was “substantial.”

“It’s obvious that the retail tenants are not well cared for” in the eminent domain proceedings, he said.

Eminent domain can only be evoked in the service of “public use,” according to the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution. A June Supreme Court ruling against Connecticut property owners, however, further strengthened eminent domain laws. The Fulton Transit Hub is a clear case of eminent domain, leaving business owners little recourse to fight the transit authority.

“The writing’s been on the wall, what am I going to do?” said Geoff Feder, owner of Cookie Island at 189 Broadway. “Of course you’re upset, it’s a drag, it’s a total drag. It’d be a drag if I had to move my doghouse across the street.”

Aside from the “drag” of moving, finding a new location in the neighborhood at all might prove to be impossible for many of these shopkeepers as they suddenly flood a market already short on retail space because of a spate of residential conversions in recent years.

“There’s no space Downtown,” said David Rakhminov, owner of Alex Tailor Shop, as he bent over a sewing machine working on a leather coat in the tiny street level John St. shop. It moved to the Corbin building six months ago, after its previous location converted to residential condos.

“What says that the next building I move into the owner isn’t going to say that he wants out of renting to small businesses?” said Cynthia Callsen, a psychologist with a private practice in the Corbin building. “There’s no security going forward for small businesses.”

Most of the business owners Downtown Express spoke to for this story were resigned to their fate, however, agreeing the transit hub is a necessary part of the neighborhood’s redevelopment. Many have an existential view of their unfortunate role in the story of the rebuilding of Lower Manhattan. “Take a map of New York and start a business somewhere and then take a dart and throw it at the map,” said Feder. “Well you just hit us.”

October 14th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Not to spread my reputation as the crapmeister, but I am elated that this mierda is being torn down. Hopefully, the crap of the west side of B'Way between Liberty Tower and 195 B'Way will be demolished next, along with that little shi...tty building with the Easy Spirit shown in the photo above.

October 14th, 2005, 10:16 PM
I agree. The Corbin Building is so elegant, it is best that we blot it out. Othewise, looking around among all the glass boxes that fill our city, we might grow hopelessly depressed, having to look at this reminder of New York as it once was.

October 14th, 2005, 10:20 PM
Is there even anything of any significance there? I use that entrance in the photo all the time (right behind the easy spirit store) and have not even entered any of these places. The only things I find remotely interesting in the area is the sushi place across the street and one watch dealer a block down.

October 14th, 2005, 10:37 PM
The Corbin Building is the only one that will remain -- but in a much better state.

November 11th, 2005, 06:24 AM
Tribeca Trib

Business Owners, Forced Out For Transit Center, Protest


by Barry Owens

A group of small business owners being forced out to make way for the new Fulton Street Transit Center took to the steps of City Hall on Nov. 3 in protest.

“We’re not going out quietly,” said Katherine Hill, a graphic designer, and member of a newly formed group called the Ground Zero Small Business Association. The group is comprised of 140 business owners with offices and retail space in the buildings between Fulton and John Streets on Broadway that are soon to be demolished.

The 115-year-old Corbin Building, at the corner of Broadway and John, will be preserved and incorporated into the transit center, but current tenants will be sent packing as the offices are to be taken over by the MTA. The MTA also plans to acquire 189 Broadway across the street to construct an entry pavilion to a new underground concourse connecting the transit hub to the World Trade Center site.

“We’re not trying to stop the transit project,” said Arthur Castle, a statistician with an office at 198 Broadway, who sees the transit center as a needed improvement for the neighborhood. “But don’t hurt us.”

The MTA is offering relocation assistance, but the business owners claim the amount of financial compensation is not enough. Nor does the compensation guarantee that the businesses will find new homes Downtown, where small, affordable office space is in short supply.

“I’m 52 years old. I can not start over somewhere else,” said William Saad, a tailor at 198 Broadway. “If I go further than five blocks, I’m ruined, ruined, ruined.”

Some of the tenants of the buildings moved in to take advantage of low rents after Sept. 11, but many have operated there for years and struggled to keep the doors open following the attacks. Some took out loans they said they are still paying back.

“We Survived 9/11 to Be Ruined By The MTA,” one protesting business owner’s sign read. “Gov. Pataki Told Us To Stay, MTA Forces To Go,” read another sign. “What Are We, Chopped Liver?” read another.

An MTA spokesman, Tom Kelly, said the tenants should battle with the city for additional tax breaks and not with the agency that he said is working to assist the tenants in relocating.

Kelly said that about a quarter of the tenants had signed agreements. He declined to reveal the amount of compensation offered to the business, but said it varies from shop to shop.

“We have lived up to our commitment and worked with these people and done everything possible to assist them,” he said.

Marlene Burke, a psychotherapist, has worked since August of 2004 to organize business owners in an effort to get information and assistance from public officials and Downtown business groups. She said the MTA’s efforts have not been enough.

“I had a sense that we weren’t going to be helped,” said Burke. “The MTA wasn’t seeing us, or hearing us. They were just making nice-nice.”

Castle said it was ironic that the businesses already in Lower Manhattan were in danger of losing their Downtown address, while others seemingly have to be coaxed with tax breaks to locate below Canal Street.

“They don’t have to bribe us to stay here,” said Castle, pointing west, in the direction of the future headquarters of Goldman Sachs. “We just need a little bit of help.”


November 15th, 2005, 08:07 PM
Fulton Street Transit Center Dome


The dome is a study for the dome of the Fulton Street subway in New York. As people cross the floor, their paths are traced on lights in the dome ceiling. Using programmable LEDs over a diffused glass plane, the trails take on their own dynamic, continuing long after the pathmaker has left.

The same principle can be applied to a lobby or any public space.

Dey Street Tunnel



The Dey Street Tunnel is a pedestrian tunnel that connects Fulton Street with the World Trade Center subway stations. This project, with physical design by James Carpenter Design, investigated the interactive potential of LEDs in a space without natural light. The physical space animates as people walk through the tunnel at different rates, at different densities and from different directions.

The LED lighting is integrated into only one wall of the tunnel through apertures in the polished stainless steel walls. The other walls, a combination of highly reflective and matt surfaces, create an illusion of multiple spaces and depths inside them.

Click the links to see their interactive displays

November 15th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Very creative technlogies for this project. I like it.

November 15th, 2005, 08:53 PM
That sounds like it could cost a shitload of money which would better go toward making the rest of the stations remotely tolerable.

I mean, seriously, if the MTA can't deal with huge paint chips falling from ceilings, how is it going to maintain this?

November 15th, 2005, 09:16 PM
This is probably a cost-saving project, now the tunnel won't be fully lit, it will only light a few steps ahead of you :D. Very much like the old 6 train :D.
Killers and rapists are cheering this on.

I guess it's encouraging that they want to do SOMETHING, not sure if this is it but it's better than nothing

November 15th, 2005, 09:33 PM
create an illusion of multiple spaces and depths inside them.
The passageway has been narrowed to cut costs, and more money is spent to make the passageway appear wider.

This is pure, undiluted MTA.

November 15th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Still, technology-wise, it's pretty darned cool :cool:

November 16th, 2005, 10:10 AM
Please note that the dome and tunnel were concepts and ideas only. The MTA went with another designer for the project, not JCDA.

November 16th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Since the project, particularly the dome, was scaled back for budget reasons I wonder if they will be using any of their new found surplus to reinstate some of the original plans for this major transportation hub. (yeah right)

Or maybe that's where the LED lights came from.

November 28th, 2005, 12:49 PM
November 27, 2005
Street Level | Lower Manhattan

The Last Days of the Little Guys

The Corbin Building.

AS shopping districts go, the corner of Dey Street and Broadway, in Lower Manhattan, hardly carries the prestige of Madison Avenue or the relentless bustle of Herald Square. Still, for a certain brand of merchant, one who relies partly on tourists and impulse buys, this is one of the city's best locations. Because the A, C, 2 and 3 trains, among others, stop nearby, there is plenty of foot traffic. The popular discount department store Century 21 is a block west, and a bus carrying ground-zero-bound tourists stops on the corner.

"We would have to be in Times Square to equal this location," said Geoff Feder, the manager of Cookie Island, a gourmet cookie shop at 189 Broadway, a two-story building.

Like the five other tenants that occupy the building, Mr. Feder has been thinking about location lately. That is because the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is acquiring 189 Broadway, as well as the larger Corbin Building, across the street, to construct a $785 million transit hub for Lower Manhattan. The buildings will be taken under the state's powers of eminent domain, and while the Corbin Building, a sliver-thin late-19th-century survivor, will be preserved, 189 Broadway will be demolished, and tenants in both buildings will be displaced early next year.

More than 100 businesses will be forced to relocate, a cross section of New York commerce that includes a golf shop, several law offices, a Christian Science reading room, two discount jewelers, a beauty shop, a tailor and a temp agency. The M.T.A. has offered to help the businesses relocate, and store owners will be reimbursed for expenses like moving costs. But as often happens when property is acquired under eminent domain, many merchants being displaced feel deeply, almost existentially cheated.

"The money is, like, a joke," said Mirza Mamur of the Glamour Art Gallery, which specializes in framing panoramic photos and which opened at 189 Broadway shortly after 9/11. David Sutton, who owns New York Stocking Exchange, a lingerie outlet next door, added, "I spent nine years building up this business, and I can't even announce a going-out-of-business sale because the city hasn't given me a moving date."

The transit center is a federally funded project, meaning that the M.T.A. must follow strict federal guidelines on compensation, said Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the transit authority. The agency, he said, is trying to be as flexible as possible in setting a vacate date, in order to allow the businesses to stay through the holiday shopping season.

There is a precedent for this sort of disruption downtown. New Yorkers of a certain age will recall Radio Row, the strip of electronic stores on Cortlandt Street that sat at the heart of one of the city's nastier legal tussles. In 1961, the Port Authority announced that it was eyeing the neighborhood as the future site of the World Trade Center. Soon after, Oscar Nadel, proprietor of Oscar's Radio and TV, along with his fellow merchants, waged a bitter battle against the Port Authority, hiring a civil liberties lawyer and holding a funeral procession for the endangered species they described as Mr. Small Businessman.

The issue wound its way to the upper reaches of state government, and the trade center went forward only after the United States Supreme Court declined to hear the case. A few years later, a planned civic center near City Hall resulted in the condemnation of more businesses, including Gasner's, a restaurant popular with a string of mayors.

Some of the business people being displaced this time around have coalesced as the Ground Zero Small Business Association, and two weeks ago, they gathered for a rally on the steps of City Hall, waving signs with slogans like "What Are We? Chopped Liver?" In spirit, the event recalled the Radio Row campaign, but the murky politics of a post-9/11 downtown complicates matters. As Isaac Zafarani, a manager at Renaissance Jewelers, a discount store in the Corbin Building, put it, "Unfortunately, people don't want to be seen as going against progress."

Downtown is moving forward. The crowds are returning. Construction on the transit hub began this month, and the difficult days and months that followed the terrorist attacks are receding in the minds of shoppers and real estate developers. But businessmen like Mr. Zafarani, who stayed open when lower Broadway resembled a war zone, are unlikely to take part in the renewal. The downtown rents are too high for him to stay.

Mr. Feder, the manager at Cookie Island, has decided to close. "On December 24th," he said, "I'll turn the lights off." And then? "I'm going on unemployment," he said.

E-mail: streetlevel@nytimes.com

November 28th, 2005, 02:04 PM
With the new WTC transit hub, im not really sure if this is need, there will not be much new construction in LM, outside of WTC and Residential development i think will stat to slow down

December 22nd, 2005, 05:17 AM
Nice models of this and other buildings like 1 BP.


January 19th, 2006, 12:29 PM





January 19th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Ugh!! You've got to be kidding me? We went from having a jewel-like masterpiece like this:


...to this with a little stump thing pointing up:


Now the stump thing is totally pointless and ugly, they should just get rid of it altogether.

January 19th, 2006, 01:18 PM
I'm not wild about either design. The Calatrava station at the WTC is a masterpiece. Grimshaw's designs for this project are a little better than mediocre. Nonetheless, it is a vast improvement over the array of utter sh..it that currently infests that site. Now, I hope that the four sh.itty, little buildings across the street from this are torn down (though it would be nice if the facades of two of them were restored and incorporated into a new project).

January 19th, 2006, 01:36 PM
eeeewwwwww. I knew they had to downsize the glass dome but geez, that really is a huge disappointment.
When you see the two plans next to each other, the new one isn't even in the same class. I loved the glass treatment in the first, it was so much cleaner and elegant with the large vertical metal divisions. Now the fascade is all chopped up and it looks one of those cheap re-skins they're doing all over midtown.
As for the stump that landed on the roof- that's just pitiful.
I should have expected this. Are they going to pull the same crap with the Calatrava station?

January 19th, 2006, 02:57 PM
I wonder how the final version will look like. What a shame. We were supposed to get a world class station. This says alot of the MTA. Thank god they are not in charge of the WTC hub nor the Moynihan station. I guess we can go back to the arguement of whether or not it was fair to kick out so many tenants to build this thing. For that $hit? NOpe. Might as well knock down the whole block and cover it with a shoe box with a cone on top of it. (i really hope those F*ckin losers read forums).....i apologize i have now vented.

January 19th, 2006, 02:57 PM
me cryin' ...

January 19th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Ugh!! You've got to be kidding me? We went from having a jewel-like masterpiece like this:


...to this with a little stump thing pointing up:


Now the stump thing is totally pointless and ugly, they should just get rid of it altogether.

Part of what makes these pictures different is the angle. One is from much closer up so the roofline blocks more of the domey thing. The other is that one of these has very snappy, glossy lighting affects that make it look much better than the duller affects on the other. I am forever amazed how much rendering quality can alter the perception of a building.

January 19th, 2006, 03:00 PM
The box all the way to the corner at Broadway seems like a big mistake, in terms of pedestrian-flow. Sidewalks down there are narrow enough, so why not let the round edge of the inner "cone" define that corner (ala Reuters buidling at Times Square). This would be a great help in terms of movement of the peoples on the street.

January 19th, 2006, 03:12 PM
While it is true that the quality of a rendering makes a huge difference, in this case there are too many differences in quality of the architecture to have me fooled. No amount of lighting effects and angle shifting can account for what we see here. The spirit of the building has changed fundamentally.

January 19th, 2006, 04:38 PM
The box all the way to the corner at Broadway seems like a big mistake, in terms of pedestrian-flow. Sidewalks down there are narrow enough, so why not let the round edge of the inner "cone" define that corner (ala Reuters buidling at Times Square). This would be a great help in terms of movement of the peoples on the street.

That's EXACTLY what is was thinking. A rounded edge would look a lot nicer too.

January 19th, 2006, 04:58 PM
Shorter dome. Oh well, I don't care.
But the change in the facade I do care about. This will be most noticeable. From the airy minimally suspended glass to the cheap looking framed glass, it changes the visual accessibilty of the station.

January 19th, 2006, 05:12 PM
I agree.

The dome only looks bad in comparison to the original, but the glass completely alters the character of the building. Imagine if that was done at TWC.

January 19th, 2006, 05:22 PM
What looks different in the glass is that the smaller panes are clearly visibly in the newer rendering. In the older rendering they are only hinted at which was probably completely unrealistic. The false impression of huge single panes gave it an architectural quality it couldn't achieve in reality.

However, with or withour panes the main problem with the newer design is not the dome but the fact the there now appear to be floors directly abutting the outside walls. The egg floating in the cube gave a completely different setting but was probably quite expensive to engineer.

January 19th, 2006, 05:31 PM

I don't think so. The glass was supposed to be the same suspended cable-net system that Carpenter designed at TWC.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50D12FB3A5D0C768CDDAD0894DC4044 82

January 19th, 2006, 05:42 PM
JM-You did not look very closely at the panes in the original design. They are not rendered as single, giant panes. In fact, if you look closely the panes are composed of smaller, square panes.

January 19th, 2006, 06:18 PM
JM-You did not look very closely at the panes in the original design. They are not rendered as single, giant panes. In fact, if you look closely the panes are composed of smaller, square panes.

That's not what I said. I said it was rendered to look that way unless you look closely.

January 19th, 2006, 06:21 PM

I don't think so. The glass was supposed to be the same suspended cable-net system that Carpenter designed at TWC.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50D12FB3A5D0C768CDDAD0894DC4044 82

You don't hink so what? I said the rendering attempted to hide the paneing unless you look closely giving a false impression.

Regardless, my point was that its not the panes with thick mullions, no mullions, or total lack there of that is the problem. The problem is the egg no longer floats because it now seems to be surrounded by floor that come out to the glass.

January 19th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Eh, I think it'll get changed a few times before the final product...I smell high material costs leading to the use of a different material leading to the elimination of transparancy from the hub glass :p

BTW, anyone know when Cortland reopens? I know it's "February" but does anyone have a date?

January 19th, 2006, 06:31 PM
Ugh!! You've got to be kidding me? We went from having a jewel-like masterpiece like this:


...to this with a little stump thing pointing up:


Now the stump thing is totally pointless and ugly, they should just get rid of it altogether.

Yeah, its a little too flat. But we were warned of this a few months ago. Now they just sneak it past. Can't wait to see that new cultural (I mean info) center design.

January 19th, 2006, 08:25 PM
You don't hink so what? I said the rendering attempted to hide the paneing unless you look closely giving a false impression. Again, I disagree. The original rendering appears to accurately depict the curtain wall. If you look closely where two lines intersect, you can see the same joint as in the TWC glass.


The new rendering looks like they've abandoned the more expensive suspended wall for the more ordinary glass panels.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/ColumbusCirclefromTimeWarnerCenterNYC20050807.jpg/800px-ColumbusCirclefromTimeWarnerCenterNYC20050807.jpgT WC

January 19th, 2006, 08:28 PM
While suspended glass is more expensive I'll wager that security concerns also had to do something with the redesign.

January 19th, 2006, 10:56 PM
They should drop the whole above-ground design and let those 120 small businesses stay in Lower Manhattan. It's not too late.

January 20th, 2006, 12:07 AM
The new rendering looks like they've abandoned the more expensive suspended wall for the more ordinary glass panels.

I agree the wall has changed. My opinion is that the first rendering sought to make even its TWC style suspended wall look like it was a single pane.

I'm not explaining it very well, but my point is the big downgrade in the design is not the change in the glass wall, but the fact that now there are floors between the glass wall and the egg, where as before it was open making the egg seem to float. Without the floors, even the new glass wall would clearly show the egg inside and the design would be better than it is currently.

They should drop the whole above-ground design and let those 120 small businesses stay in Lower Manhattan. It's not too late.
Heavan forbid any shop should not have the lease renewed and be displaced. The city should just be frozen in its current state of perfection no doubt. I seriously can't for the life of me understand your reasoning in wanting to save that group of stores.

January 20th, 2006, 12:21 AM
How about a happy compromise? Surely they can cram some (not all 120) of those displaced small biz (if retail) in here:


January 20th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Well, I'll miss the Sleepy's. Never know when you're gonna need a mattress.

January 20th, 2006, 12:52 AM
The shrinking of the dome seems also to have led to the bulking-up of the interior structure.

It now looks kind of like some mall I once visited in Lansing ... or was it Salt Lake?

January 20th, 2006, 10:01 AM
The shrinking of the dome seems also to have led to the bulking-up of the interior structure. It now looks kind of like some mall I once visited in Lansing ... or was it Salt Lake?

If they could just plant some palms in the middle, it could be a new wintergarden.

January 20th, 2006, 06:34 PM
How about a happy compromise? Surely they can cram some (not all 120) of those displaced small biz (if retail) in here:

only if the transit center is in dire need of watch salesmen and a "Friday's"

January 21st, 2006, 09:34 AM
only if the transit center is in dire need of watch salesmen and a "Friday's"
oh yeah ... we need more of those...

January 23rd, 2006, 09:32 AM
Have the businesses started moving out of the storefronts where this station will be built?

January 23rd, 2006, 01:34 PM
Both the Bway site and most of the Dey St site-which should be demolished first - are still occupied.

January 23rd, 2006, 02:28 PM
What a shame. The sooner that that crap is flushed down the toilet the better.

January 23rd, 2006, 06:30 PM
ummm...Cortland looks like it's not even near any kind of completion date. There's holes in walls, platforms, ceilings, EVERYWHERE. Dare I say the whole project will be like this. Delays delays delays, and the MTA will run out of money halfway through, but GREAT HOLIDAY $1 PLAN guys! I really used it soooo much, especially during the strike.

January 23rd, 2006, 06:47 PM

January 23rd, 2006, 06:56 PM

I wonder how that translates though into tearing down the buildings at that site.

January 23rd, 2006, 07:18 PM
I don't think any other construction/deconstruction will take place at street level until Dey St is reopened.

January 23rd, 2006, 11:35 PM
I wonder how that translates though into tearing down the buildings at that site.

Yes, subway stations run by the MTA are all so lovely.

TLOZ Link5
January 24th, 2006, 03:31 PM
Yes, subway stations run by the MTA are all so lovely.

Some are, some aren't. Do you intend to tell me that the Museum of Natural History B-C, the 72nd Street 1-2-3, the 33rd street 6, the 28th street N-R-W, the Grand Central end of the 42nd Street shuttle, and many others aren't pretty?

January 24th, 2006, 06:56 PM
^Heh, I agree there's many good things about the MTA in general but the stations you named are ranked in the very elite as the richest places in the world, i'd expect them to have some nice appearance.

January 25th, 2006, 01:10 AM
Some are, some aren't. Do you intend to tell me that the Museum of Natural History B-C, the 72nd Street 1-2-3, the 33rd street 6, the 28th street N-R-W, the Grand Central end of the 42nd Street shuttle, and many others aren't pretty?

I take the last station every day (typically twice), and it sucks ass.

January 25th, 2006, 02:51 PM
BPC, Whats wrong with the Grand Central end of the shuttle?

January 25th, 2006, 09:27 PM
It's poorly-laid out. The signage is a mess. The ceilings are very low, which makes the whole experience quite depressing. The platforms are too narrow. And, like almost every other MTA station, it is filthy.

January 28th, 2006, 05:22 PM
I may be going in at the wrong time, but I usually find it quite clean.

January 30th, 2006, 12:25 AM
the main concourse part of the Grand Central subway that sits directly on top of the 4,5,6 should be so much more impressive. Thats the heart of the entire subway station, all it is is super low ceilings with unattractive roofing and a tile design on the floor. When the breakdancers come in, theres no place to walk. so no, I dont think Grand central is that grand. the hallway to the shuttle and the shuttle platform is big and airy and a grand improvement off the hub.

In response to the earliar post, the museum stop is great. and 3 or 4 others. That is a great minority of the 200+ stations. or was it 400+ i have my figures mixed up. all i know is that of all the stations ive seen here in the bronx, ALL of them can use major improvements.

February 5th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Does anyone know what those large cylinders on Dey St are?

February 6th, 2006, 12:30 AM
Curlers for Debra Burlingame's hair ??

February 6th, 2006, 12:08 PM
The Cortland St Station was originally scheduled to reopen today. Any idea if it got reopened?

February 6th, 2006, 01:37 PM
"Does anyone know what those large cylinders on Dey St are?"

The casings for the secant piles.

2 parallel walls of concete piles are being installed along Dey St to support the sides of the excavation. It is similar to what they did on State St and Whitehall St for the South Ferry project.

March 29th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Pressing a Claim for Dutch History

Michael Flaco for The New York Times
John Harrington Jr., left, and Casey Kemper
of the Collegiate Church Corporation, which hopes
to turn the Corbin Building in Lower Manhattan
into a Dutch heritage center.


NY Times
Square Feet
March 29, 2006


Even by the standards of New York City (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/classifieds/realestate/locations/newyork/newyorkcity/manhattan/?inline=nyt-geo), one of the earliest settlements in North America, 282 years is a long time. That is how long the Collegiate Church Corporation has owned the land where the Corbin Building sits at 11 John Street and Broadway in Lower Manhattan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/classifieds/realestate/locations/newyork/newyorkcity/manhattan/?inline=nyt-geo).

But on Friday, the land and the building will be taken by eminent domain (along with three other buildings owned by the church) for the new Fulton Street Transit Center. Originally all four buildings were to be demolished, but after a community tussle, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority agreed to incorporate the basement and first floor of the Corbin Building, built in 1888-89, into the design of the station and to leave the rest of the edifice intact.

Now, with the building's upper floors available for redevelopment, the Collegiate Church wants to turn the building into the New Amsterdam Center, a collection of Dutch-related historic, cultural and business enterprises in honor of its religious heritage and New York City's first settlers.

"We support the transit center, and we're not objecting to eminent domain," said Casey R. Kemper, president of Collegiate Realty, the real estate arm of the church. "But our heritage should be respected. We've owned the land for almost 300 years."

The Collegiate Church claims to be the oldest Protestant congregation with a continuous ministry in the United States. Members of the Dutch Reformed Church began meeting in 1626 in Lower Manhattan, and the congregation later became known as the Collegiate Church.

The Collegiate Church has owned the land that the Corbin sits on since 1724. The corporation now oversees four churches in Manhattan, including Marble Collegiate, where Dr. Norman Vincent Peale preached for many years.

The management of Collegiate Church has told the authority that it wants to either repurchase the building or retain control through a master lease, but it was told that the M.T.A. would not deal with that until the transit project was finished.

The work will turn the Fulton Street subway station into a $750 million transit center with six subway lines and retail and office space. It is already behind schedule and has been scaled back because of budget constraints.

"They have expressed interest in working with us," said Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the authority. "We have told them we will work with them at the end of the project."

But Collegiate Church believes that now is the time to hammer out the details. With ownership of the Corbin and three other buildings about to be transferred through eminent domain, negotiations for "just compensation" are set to begin. Under this process, the owner and the taker come to an agreement about the value of the buildings and land.

A developer hired by the Collegiate Church to put together the New Amsterdam Center proposal says that waiting until the Fulton Street Transit Center is complete would scuttle the plan.

"There is about a three- to six-month window of opportunity," said Ad Hereijgers, a native of the Netherlands who has a real estate and development office in New York called New Amsterdam Development Consultants. "The people I'm talking to about moving into the Corbin Building can't wait until the project is complete to decide if they can relocate."

The vision for the New Amsterdam Center is to assemble under one roof New York's earliest historically relevant organizations supported by Dutch commercial interests.

The anchor tenant would be the New Amsterdam History Center, run jointly by the Collegiate Church and the New Netherland Institute, which is now in Albany. The institute has undertaken the New Netherland Project, which involves translating all Dutch documents related to New York's earliest founding. Other floors would be dedicated to Dutch cultural organizations, like the Netherlands Architectural Institute, a museum of historical and contemporary Dutch architecture based in Rotterdam. There are also plans for a media center, office space and a rooftop restaurant.

Jacob Willemsen owns the New Amsterdam Trade and Consultancy, which is in Midtown and provides desk space to Dutch-based companies that prefer not to set up an independent office. "All my desks are fully booked, and there's a demand for offices like this," Mr. Willemsen said. He has toured the Corbin Building and would like to become part of the New Amsterdam Center.

"I could easily take two floors in the building, and it would be good for New York's heritage."

Henry Hudson sailed into the harbor in late August 1609 for the Dutch East India Company, paving the way for the Dutch to become the first settlers of "Manna-hata," as the island was originally referred to, according to "The Island at the Center of the World," a history of Dutch Manhattan by Russell Shorto. England eventually wrested control of New Amsterdam from the Dutch and renamed it New York.

While the land that the Corbin occupies has been in Dutch-affiliated hands for nearly 300 years, the eight-story Corbin Building was erected in 1888-89 for Austin Corbin, an English businessman. It was designed by Francis Hatch Kimball, one of Manhattan's most important pre-skyscraper architects, and is one of the more distinctive buildings in Lower Manhattan, with an irregular shape, red terra-cotta facade, Romanesque detailing and the original interior stairway and railing.

The New York Landmarks Conservancy led an effort to have it protected, and it was placed on the State and National Registers of Historic Places in 2003.

The Collegiate Church hopes to have the New Amsterdam Center open by August 2009, the 400th anniversary of Henry Hudson's arrival. "We have a certain amount of leverage now that we won't have later," Mr. Kemper said.

"We plan to enter into the just-compensation negotiations about what we expect to get for all the buildings — including continued involvement with the Corbin — and everyone can come out smelling like a rose. Otherwise, we're concerned about how long this will drag on.

"Everyone agrees that Lower Manhattan should have more historical, cultural and commercial interests to help it recover from Sept. 11. And that's precisely what this would be."

Copyright 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html)The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)

April 9th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Anyone know if there are actual new tunnels constructed as of now?

April 10th, 2006, 01:21 PM
The only thing that has been completed is the underpining of the R/W line at Dey St.

April 10th, 2006, 07:12 PM
What's the "unofficial" reason as to why Corland's closeure has been extended by a year?

April 11th, 2006, 01:38 PM
It is easier to do the work with the entire station closed to traffic. I think the MTA realized that not too many people used the station and didn't miss its' closing.

April 11th, 2006, 10:38 PM
not too many people??????

I used that station every morning :D

Rector and Cortland were equidistant from One WFC so it's not that much of a problem for me, but Cortland is one of the nicer stations in the city and I can't wait until it reopens

May 22nd, 2006, 10:55 PM
Bad news ...

Fulton Street Transit Center Millions Over Budget

NY1 (http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=59650)
May 22, 2006

The subway hub planned for Lower Manhattan is running into more cost overruns.

MTA officials said Monday they will have to go back and redesign parts of the Fulton Street Transit Center because the project is tens of millions of dollars over budget.

According to transit officials, the project is over budget partly because of rising real estate costs, and also because of the cost of demolishing buildings in such a way that they don't stir up toxic dust.

“The budget is $799 million. We are about $40 to $50 million over, so we have to look at how we can find that kind of money," said Mysore Nagaraja, president of MTA Capital Construction Co.

Federal 9/11 rebuilding money is funding the project, which has already been redesigned twice.

Copyright © 2006 NY1 News. All rights reserved

May 22nd, 2006, 11:08 PM
They should focus on the undergound connections, and scrap the above-ground glass shell, which is stupid.

May 22nd, 2006, 11:45 PM
They should focus on the undergound connections, and scrap the above-ground glass shell, which is stupid.

May 23rd, 2006, 01:58 AM
and anti-urban

May 23rd, 2006, 04:11 AM
May 23, 2006
Over Budget, Fulton Street Transit Hub Faces a Redesign

The cost of the Fulton Street Transit Center, designed to link a dozen subway lines in Lower Manhattan, has jumped by as much as $50 million and the project needs to be scaled back, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority said yesterday.

Mysore Nagaraja, who oversees capital construction for the authority, said the project, which will also connect subway riders with a new World Trade Center transportation center, was running $40 million to $50 million over its original budget of $799 million.

The opening of the Fulton Street center has already been delayed from December 2008 to June 2009, transit officials said. It is intended to provide easier transfers for riders on the A, C, E, J, M, R, W, Z, 2, 3, 4 and 5 lines.

Mr. Nagaraja blamed rising real estate values that have forced the authority to pay more for private property at the site. Construction costs have also increased because of more stringent standards for asbestos removal adopted by the Environmental Protection Agency, transit officials said.

The project is being financed with part of $4.5 billion in grants from the Federal Transit Administration to various agencies for rebuilding Lower Manhattan.

The transit center's design, first unveiled in May 2004, has already been scaled back because of budget constraints.

What had been envisioned as a striking example of train station architecture, with a conical steel-and-glass dome admitting light to what some called a Grand Central Terminal for Lower Manhattan, was altered slightly to incorporate a less prominent dome.

Mr. Nagaraja, who spoke yesterday before a committee of the authority, said no decisions had been made about specific changes to address the latest budget gap.

He said a priority would be put on fulfilling commitments that were part of an environmental impact statement on the project, which took two years to complete.

Timothy O'Brien, a spokesman for the authority, said planners were doing "everything they can to maintain the concept of a light and airy" transit center.

"What the final rendering will look like, we can't say," he said. "They are trying to do it in a way that is economically elegant."

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

May 23rd, 2006, 09:15 AM
And is it the same MTA that some folks declare should be in charge of various other real estate projects around NYC?

Seems they should take some math classes first.

May 23rd, 2006, 09:32 AM
I think it goes without saying that most big transporation projects these days go over budget, even before actual construction begins.

May 23rd, 2006, 10:02 AM
They should focus on the undergound connections, and scrap the above-ground glass shell, which is stupid.


May 23rd, 2006, 10:34 AM
And is it the same MTA that some folks declare should be in charge of various other real estate projects around NYC?
Seems they should take some math classes first.

$50 mil over budget (when the budget is 800 mil) is not that much. I would think that delaying the opening of the center for a year will cost New Yorkers much more than 50 mil in lost time and potential benefits.

May 23rd, 2006, 10:47 AM
Is this a dog chasing its tail?

Every so often they have to make the building cheaper. It takes time to do that. While they're doing it, construction costs creep up. Then they're right back where they started. If they delay long enough it'll never get built.

Or maybe it could be just another hole in the ground.

May 23rd, 2006, 03:12 PM
Or maybe it could be just another hole in the ground.

Terrific, a Downtown sister site to 8th between 41st and 42nd.

May 23rd, 2006, 03:35 PM
since they are building a WTC transportation center and the bulk of new jobs created down there will be west of the site ( WTC 2,3,4 and GS) is this really needed at all?

I think this money could be put to use in many different ways

May 23rd, 2006, 03:56 PM
The Fulton St. station and the WTC will be served by completely different lines. Part of the project is to connect them.

It would be nice if the MTA could get it together enough to give NY a nice public space with the dome but it isn't strictly necessary to rehab the station and connect it to the WTC.

I continue to be aggravated by those who insist that virtually every project in NY must be "contextual" in the extreme to what is currently there. The city could use some changes for the better.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:04 PM
i agree but money is something that shouldnt be wasted like that. Why not spend the 800 million to lure back all these fortune 500 companies that have packed there bags or all these other frt 500 firms based here that have moved so many workers to Jersey.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:19 PM
I don't know what exactly you're saying - subsidize private enterprise even more than we already have? We've handed out enough tax-free bonds to encourage development. You want to pay them to stay and/or come back? That sounds too desperate, almost like the Canadian idea of paying new immigrants to fill up the country.

Yeah, I agree, the corporate tax structure could use some reworking, but that's something that has to be budgeted over the long term, not as a one-time handout.

And while we're on the point of luring firms to New York, especially Downtown: isn't that the reason we're investing so much in the transportation infrastructure in the first place? You make the commute easier, more people will be willing to work there, and more companies will be willing to relocate.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:23 PM
I agree that the burden for some firms to be in NY is too much and should be reduced.

However, part of why firms choose to be here are great public centers, including what could be for the Fulton St. Center. Now is not the time to throw up a cheap structure because of lack of will.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:31 PM
Having Fulton Street built wouldnt make a firm from CT, which i was inches away from having relocate over 500 c HQ jobs and setting up shop in LM, move here. The only thing making them come is incentives, something the Bloomberg admin has practically eliminated and is the reason as of now he has a 0% job creation record.

Taxes in NYC are over 150 times what a firm would payimn your home state or in your home town of Holmdel. Lower taxes, elimating corporation taxes and lower sales and energy costs is the only way to attract jobs.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:34 PM
^ The Goldman Sachs employees who demanded to stay in NY didn't do so because they were getting a break on the electricity. While GS as a company got a sweetheart deal, it was their people who wanted to be in NY.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:45 PM
Using a Financial company is a bad idea to back your opinion. True Goldman will stay HQ here, but will move about 800 jobs to JC as part of this plan but overall most large NYC based Financial companies have tons of workers in Jersey, with Merrill having close to 4,000, Citibank, Morgan and Lehman at about 2,000 and many more with others. As a commercial broker i cant even count how many times we have lost deals over these costs. idf these costs were not here, Hudson Yards would have already been built out to over 20 million sf and renting WTC would already be done

These jobs were once all here, not anymore and wont be returning unless the costs come down

May 23rd, 2006, 04:52 PM
^ I work for a financial company and the only place to be is in Manhattan. If a firm is looking for prestige, its all here. If a firm wants a place to put back office people or doesn't care about the address they will put NY against JC and take with no intention of staying here.

My point is that the great places in NY make it the prestigious place it is. I am all for cutting taxes and making NY an attractive place to firms. But a long term lease rate is the deciding factor for a price-conscious firm.

May 23rd, 2006, 04:54 PM
TonyO, im glad you get to be based in NY, fact is many in your industry have no choice and they are moved out. My problem is that NY will be a place in the future for only the top tier managment and everyone else will be elsewhere.

May 23rd, 2006, 05:04 PM
^ I get your point, but putting $ into a public transit center is not going push low to mid-level jobs towards leaving the city. Development, development, development is what is needed along with tax incentives.

May 23rd, 2006, 05:16 PM

Have the stores been vacated in the buildings that will be razed? I haven't been down there for weeks.

May 24th, 2006, 08:39 AM
walked by the other day, some are empty and some are business as usual

May 24th, 2006, 08:50 AM
is there a map were its going to be which blocks etc.

May 24th, 2006, 09:13 AM
Go HERE (http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/project_updates/fulton_street_transit_center_17608.asp) and click on the "interactive streetwork map"

May 24th, 2006, 09:16 AM
More info: http://www.mta.info/capconstr/fstc/current.htm

Fulton Street Transit Center

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