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ZippyTheChimp
December 14th, 2012, 01:11 PM
Multiple Fatalities Reported in Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/12/15/nyregion/15shooting/15shooting-articleLarge-v3.jpg
State police led children from the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., after a shooting was reported there.

By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: December 14, 2012

Multiple fatalities have been reported at a shooting at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., about 65 miles northeast of New York City. One law enforcement offcial said preliminary reports suggested there could be as many as 20 fatalities.

One state official said that an adult gunman was believed to be dead in the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. The gunman was in possession of at least two firearms, the official said.

Meredith Artley, the managing editor of CNN.com, has a friend who works at the school. “She volunteers with the school as well,” Artley said on CNNr.

The woman was in close vicinity to the shooting, which happened in the hallway, according to Ms. Artley. “She described it as a ‘Pop, pop, pop,''’ Ms Artley added. “She said three people went out into the hall and only one person came back, the vice principal, she said, who was shot in the leg or the foot, who came crawling back. She cowered under the table and called 911. She never saw the shooting. There must have been a hundred rounds.'’

Danbury Hospital said it was treating three patients from the shooting scene, according to its Facebook page. The hospital, which is not far from the elementary school, said it was on lockdown.

Gov. Dannel P. Malloy arrived at the scene of the shooting on Friday afternoon.

The school, located among wooded hills and suburban tracts in Fairfield County, 12 miles east of Danbury, serves kindergarten through fourth grade. The school has about 700 students.

According to a local newspaper, The Newtown Bee, shortly after 9:30 a.m. on Friday, one child was carried from the school by a police officer, apparently seriously wounded, and other children were escorted from the school by the state police. A photograph published by The Bee showed children outside the school visibly upset.

© 2012 The New York Times Company

ZippyTheChimp
December 14th, 2012, 01:18 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/12/15/nyregion/15shooting2/15shooting2-popup.jpg

Ninjahedge
December 14th, 2012, 01:30 PM
Kids need to be allowed bring guns to school for their own protection.

This would have never happened if everyone had a gun... :P

TREPYE
December 14th, 2012, 01:44 PM
According to CBS 18 children shot....

.... Thank you NRA.

ZippyTheChimp
December 14th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Dec. 14, 14:06 ET: The suspected shooter might have murdered someone else before going to the elementary school, a new report by CBS News suggests. Two bodies have been found in his house.

Dec. 14, 14:11 ET: NBC: A parent of the suspected shooter has been found dead at a home in New Jersey.

Dec. 14, 14:15 ET: Child victims were aged 5-10.

Dec. 14, 14:22 ET: CNN quoting a law enforcement official: The suspect is named Ryan Lanza, he is in his 20s.

Dec. 14, 14:23 ET: The suspected gunman's mother was a teacher at the elementary school, reports CBS News. She is among those killed.

Live updates (http://rt.com/usa/news/sandy-school-live-updates-091/)

eddhead
December 14th, 2012, 03:10 PM
What a horrible shame.

It seems like we get one of these events every six months or so now, always in an upscale, predominantly white community, often at a school. I don't know what to make of it, except to say that these are the types of people the NRA claim need guns to protect their homes. It just strikes me that there is a direct correleation between the growth rate of gun ownership in suburban communities and the frequency of these types of attacks. It is a political hot button, but until someone takes a serious look at this, and reinvigorates the efforts of the Brady team, it looks like we'll have to deal with these events for some time to come.

Ninjahedge
December 14th, 2012, 03:19 PM
Let people have a revolver if they want to. Make all others illegal without special licensure and permits

Make quick-load holders and others illegal.

A man coming in and letting loose 100+ shots via revolvers would have to either have a hell of a lot stuck down his pants or a horse called Silver.

Teno
December 14th, 2012, 03:48 PM
This is a completely insane way of thinking Ninja.


Kids need to be allowed bring guns to school for their own protection.

This would have never happened if everyone had a gun... :P

Ninjahedge
December 14th, 2012, 03:51 PM
Really?

Tell me more.

Teno
December 14th, 2012, 03:52 PM
We are the only westernized nation on the planet that has had multiple incidents of fully armed assailants walk into a school and kill a bunch of people. We have done absolutely nothing to prevent or deter it. Its insane beyond words.

Giving people more guns is certainly not the answer, that will only get more people killed.

mariab
December 14th, 2012, 03:57 PM
The picture in post #2 killed me. They're that young and that aware of what really happened.

IrishInNYC
December 14th, 2012, 04:18 PM
We are the only westernized nation on the planet that has had multiple incidents of fully armed assailants walk into a school and kill a bunch of people. We have done absolutely nothing to prevent or deter it. Its insane beyond words.

Giving people more guns is certainly not the answer, that will only get more people killed.

Teno, Eli Manning did a great sketch on SNL regarding the ":P" symbol.....you should check it out, I think you clearly missed the dollop of sarcasm it placed upon Ninja's post #3

Ninjahedge
December 14th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Thus the hazards of "deadpan".

OT.......

Teno
December 14th, 2012, 04:24 PM
I guess my penchant for changing the channel whenever Eli Manning shows up on my television has come back to bite me, :)


Teno, Eli Manning did a great sketch on SNL regarding the ":P" symbol.....you should check it out, I think you clearly missed the dollop of sarcasm it placed upon Ninja's post #3

scumonkey
December 14th, 2012, 05:10 PM
Although there is nothing funny about what happened today,
Chris Rock said it best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

Merry
December 14th, 2012, 08:53 PM
Oh, god.


Gunman Kills 20 Schoolchildren in Connecticut

By JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN and WILLIAM K. RASHBAUM

A gunman killed 26 people, 20 of them children between ages 5 and 10, in a shooting on Friday morning at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., about 65 miles northeast of New York City, the authorities said.

The gunman, believed to be 20, walked into a classroom at Sandy Hook Elementary School and opened fire, killing 20 students in two classrooms. He also fatally shot six other adults, then killed himself inside the school. One other person was injured in the shooting.

At the gunman’s home in Newtown, the police found the body of his mother, a teacher at the school, who had also been shot dead.

A law enforcement official identified the assailant as Adam Lanza and said that a brother, Ryan Lanza, had been questioned. Adam Lanza was wearing combat gear when he entered the school, the official said.

The school shooting is the second deadliest in American history, after the 2007 massacre at Virginia Polytechnic Institute, which claimed 32 lives.

President Obama, speaking on national television Friday afternoon, appeared to break down several times as he spoke of the crime. “The majority of those who died today were children, beautiful little kids between the ages of 5 and 10 years old,” he said.

After pausing to compose himself for 12 long seconds, Mr. Obama went on, “They had their entire lives ahead of them: birthdays, graduations, weddings, kids of their own.”
Then the president wiped the corner of his eye.

Witnesses described a harrowing scene at the school, located at the end of a long drive and surrounded by woods about 12 miles east of Danbury, Conn. Sounds of gunfire were followed by screams as terrified students and staff members hid in classrooms, closets and wherever else they could take shelter.

“We were in the gym, and I heard really loud bangs,” said a 9-year-old boy as he stood shivering and weeping outside the school with his father’s arms draped around him. “We thought that someone was knocking something over. And we heard yelling, and we heard gunshots. We heard lots of gunshots. We heard someone say, ‘Put your hands up.’ I heard, ‘Don’t shoot.’

“We had to go into the closet in the gym. Then someone came and told us to run down the hallway. There were police at every door. There were lots of people crying and screaming.”

Yvonne Cech, a school librarian, said that she, three other library workers and 18 fourth graders had spent 45 minutes locked in a closet during the shootings. “The SWAT team escorted us out,” she said.

The Newtown police summoned the State Police to the school shortly after 9:30 a.m., said Lt. J. Paul Vance of the State Police. “Immediately upon arrival,” he said, officers “entered the school and began an active shooter search.”

Most, or all, of the violence occurred in two classrooms that are next to each other, a law enforcement official said. “He visited two classrooms,” the official said.

Eighteen students were pronounced dead at the school, and two others were taken to a hospital where they were declared dead. All the adults who were fatally shot at the school were pronounced dead at the scene.

Law enforcement officials said the weapons used by the gunman were a Sig Sauer and a Glock, both handguns. The police also found a Bushmaster .223 M4 carbine, a rifle, at the scene that they believe belonged to him.

Few details emerged about Adam Lanza, the man who the authorities said was responsible for the rampage. He was believed to have lived with his mother in Newtown. He attended Newtown High School, and former high school classmates recalled him as smart, introverted and nervous. They said he went out of his way to not attract attention.

Meredith Artley, the managing editor of CNN.com, said someone who works at the school told her that after the shooting began, “three people went out into the hall and only one person came back — the vice principal, she said, who was shot in the leg or the foot, who came crawling back.” The vice principal, the school worker told Ms. Artley, “cowered under the table and called 911. There must have been a hundred rounds.”

As news of the shooting spread, frantic family members were taken to a nearby firehouse, where teachers and students who had been evacuated from the school had been taken by the authorities. Some clergy members were also there.

“The teachers wrote down the names of all the children,'’ said Msgr. Robert Weiss, the pastor at St. Rose of Lima in Newtown. “The ones who were unaccounted for, those parents went to another room and wrote their names on a list.”

“It was around, obviously,” he added, “the number that passed away.”

Officials struggled for words to describe the horror of the crime. Gov. Dannel P. Malloy of Connecticut, who went to Newtown to comfort relatives of victims, said, “Evil visited this community today.'’

Mr. Obama said: “We’ve endured too many of these tragedies in these past few years, and each time I learn the news I react not as a president but as anyone else would as a parent, and that was especially true today. I know there’s not a parent in America who doesn’t feel the same overwhelming grief that I do.”

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York, a vocal national advocate for gun control, issued an exasperated statement criticizing national leaders for failing to do more to stop gun violence.
“We have heard all the rhetoric before,” he said. “What we have not seen is leadership – not from the White House and not from Congress.”

Mr. Bloomberg waited to issue his statement until after Mr. Obama spoke, hoping that he would hear something more specific on gun control. But he did not.

“President Obama rightly sent his heartfelt condolences to the families in Newtown,” Mr. Bloomberg said. “But the country needs him to send a bill to Congress to fix this problem. Calling for ‘meaningful action’ is not enough. We need immediate action.”

The school, set among wooded hills and suburban tracts in Fairfield County, serves kindergarten through fourth grade and has about 700 students.

“It’s just a little country school,” Robert Place, 65, said as he stood nearby. “The look is very ′50s or ′60s. One floor. It’s always had a good reputation. People come to Newtown for the schools.”

Lillian Bittman, a former chairwoman of the Newtown Board of Education, has three children who attended Sandy Hook.

“It’s a place that feels like my house, a place that feels like my home,'’ she said. “It’s as if he walked into my house and did this. I’m not alone in feeling this. Everyone I talked to feels that way. When people left Sandy Hook, when they aged out, they were sad. They were sad their kids wouldn’t be part of that community.”

The school’s principal, Dawn Hochsprung, was reportedly one of those shot. But at the home of her daughter Cristina Hassinger, in Oakville, Conn., the family was still awaiting any news of her fate.

“We’re looking for any hope,” said Ryan Hassinger, Ms. Hochsprung’s son-in-law.

Maureen Kerins, a hospital nurse who lives close to the school, learned of the shooting from television and hurried to the school to see if she could help. “I stood outside waiting to go in, but a police officer came out and said they didn't need any nurses, so I knew it wasn’t good,” Ms. Kerins said.

In front of a senior center next door to the school, a 20-year-old woman was with her 4-year-old sister, who was in the school at the time of the shooting. The woman went to pick up her young sister along with their mother. The girl had her arms and legs wrapped around her.

When a reporter asked the woman what the little girl knew of what had happened, the woman said, “Absolutely nothing, and we don’t plan to tell her anything.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0

ZippyTheChimp
December 14th, 2012, 11:11 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/sites/twpweb/img/logos/twp_logo_300.gif (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/?tid=pm_business_pop)



Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States

By Ezra Klein , Updated: December 14, 2012

When we first collected (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/) much of this data, it was after the Aurora, Colo. shootings, and the air was thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”

Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.

Since then, there have been more horrible, high-profile shootings. Jovan Belcher, a linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs, took his girlfriend’s life and then his own. In Oregon, Jacob Tyler Roberts entered a mall holding a semi-automatic rifle and yelling “I am the shooter.” And, in Connecticut, at least 27 are dead (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting-leaves-students-staff-dead/2012/12/14/24334570-461e-11e2-8e70-e1993528222d_story.html) — including 18 children — after a man opened fire at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.

Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. “Too soon,” howl supporters of loose gun laws. But as others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t “too soon.” It’s much too late.

What follows here isn’t a policy agenda. It’s simply a set of facts — many of which complicate a search for easy answers — that should inform the discussion that we desperately need to have.

1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the United States.

Mother Jones has tracked and mapped (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map) every shooting spree in the last three decades. “Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,” they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2012/12/mass-shooting-legally.jpg

2. Eleven of the 20 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the United States.

Time has the full list here (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/20/the-worst-mass-shootings-of-the-past-50-years/). In second place is Finland, with two entries.

3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.*

As David Lamp writes at Cato (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities), “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”

*Correction: The info is out-of-date, if not completely wrong. Israel and Switzerland have tightened their gun laws substantially, and now pursue an entirely different approach than the United States. More details here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/). I apologize for the error.

4. Of the 11 deadliest shootings in the US, five have happened from 2007 onward.

That doesn’t include Friday’s shooting in Sandy Hook, Connecticut. The AP put the early reported death toll at 27, which would make it the second-deadliest mass shooting in US history.

5. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.

Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph (http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/) of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/America-is-violent-graph.png

As Healy writes, “The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.”

6. The South is the most violent region in the United States.

In a subsequent post (http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2012/07/21/assault-deaths-within-the-united-states/), Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/assault-deaths-us-ts-region.png

© 1996-2012 The Washington Post

7. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.

“For all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows,” writes (http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/07/21/the-declining-culture-of-guns-and-violence-in-the-united-states/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+themonkeycagefeed+%28The+Monkey +Cage%29) political scientist Patrick Egan. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup, as you can see on this graph:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/gun-ownership-declining1.png

The bottom line, Egan writes, is that “long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the United States. “

8. More guns tend to mean more homicide.

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. Citations here (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html).

9. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/) into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/gun-control-laws-and-gun-deaths-florida.jpg

“The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state,” explains Florida. “It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place – assault weapons’ bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements. Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).”

10. Gun control, in general, has not been politically popular.

Since 1990, Gallup has been asking Americans whether they think gun control laws should be stricter. The answer, increasingly, is that they don’t. “The percentage in favor of making the laws governing the sale of firearms ‘more strict’ fell from 78% in 1990 to 62% in 1995, and 51% in 2007,” reports Gallup (http://www.gallup.com/poll/145526/Gallup-Review-Public-Opinion-Context-Tucson-Shootings.aspx). “In the most recent reading, Gallup in 2010 found 44% in favor of stricter laws. In fact, in 2009 and again last year, the slight majority said gun laws should either remain the same or be made less strict.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/gun-control-polls.gif

11. But particular policies to control guns often are.

An August CNN/ORC poll asked respondents whether they favor or oppose a number of specific policies to restrict gun ownership. And when you drill down to that level, many policies, including banning the manufacture and possession of semi-automatic rifles, are popular.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2012/12/gun-control-policies.jpg

12. Shootings don’t tend to substantially affect views on gun control.

That, at least, is what the Pew Research Center (http://www.people-press.org/2012/07/30/views-on-gun-laws-unchanged-after-aurora-shooting/) found:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2012/12/shootings-and-gun-control-views.png

© 1996-2012 The Washington Post

mariab
December 15th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Names of victims in Conn. elementary school shooting released

http://col.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/59/b3fd6268a9591761b76e6cf9cc62e1_h366_w650_m6_lfalse .jpg
AP Photo: Julio Cortez. School shooting victims: A U.S. flag is covered with numbers representing the people that died when a gunman opened fired at Sandy Hook Elementary School during a shooting rampage on Friday. IMAGE

http://col.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/99/6a6e1e9d2013e8fe84e6814a7d491_h17_w0_m6_lfalse.gif 48 min agoBy reuters

Authorities have released the names of the victims in the Connecticut school shootings.

Connecticut officials released on Saturday the identities of the 20 children and six adults killed in the mass shooting at a suburban elementary school in Newtown.
The state's chief medical examiner also confirmed that the gunman's mother, a twenty-seventh victim, was shot dead by her son in a related incident. The gunman took his own life.

Those killed at the school were 12 girls, eight boys and six female adults. They are listed below by name, date of birth (mm/dd/yy), gender and age.

CHILDREN
Charlotte Bacon, 2/22/06, female (age 6)
Daniel Barden, 9/25/05, male (age 7)
Olivia Engel, 7/18/06, female (age 6)
Josephine Gay, 12/11/05, female (age 7)
Ana M. Marquez-Greene, 04/04/06, female (age 6)
Dylan Hockley, 03/08/06, male (age 6)
Madeleine F. Hsu, 07/10/06, female (age 6)
Catherine V. Hubbard, 06/08/06, female (age 6)
Chase Kowalski, 10/31/05, male (age 7)
Jesse Lewis, 06/30/06, male (age 6)
James Mattioli, 03/22/06, male (age 6)
Grace McDonnell, 11/04/05, female (age 7)
Emilie Parker, 05/12/06, female (age 6)
Jack Pinto, 05/06/06, male (age 6)
Noah Pozner, 11/20/06, male (age 6)
Caroline Previdi, 09/07/06, female (age 6)
Jessica Rekos, 05/10/06, female (age 6)
Avielle Richman, 10/17/06, female (age 6)
Benjamin Wheeler, 9/12/06, male (age 6)
Allison N. Wyatt, 07/03/06, female (age 6)

ADULTS
Rachel Davino, 7/17/83, female (age 29)
Dawn Hocksprung, 06/28/65, female (age 47)
Anne Marie Murphy, 07/25/60, female (age 52)
Lauren Russeau, 1982, female (age 29)
Mary Sherlach, 02/11/56, female (age 56)
Victoria Soto, 11/04/85, female (age 27)

http://news.msn.com/us/names-of-victims-in-conn-elementary-school-shooting-released/

ZippyTheChimp
December 15th, 2012, 05:19 PM
Two classrooms, first-grade.

One of the adults was the school psychologist.

eddhead
December 15th, 2012, 05:55 PM
First graders. Jesus Christ.

Merry
December 15th, 2012, 11:04 PM
The right to bear arms to defend oneself may be one thing, but with a semi-automatic rifle? No.


Children Were All Shot Multiple Times With a Semiautomatic, Officials Say

By JAMES BARRON

The gunman in the Connecticut shooting blasted his way into the elementary school and then sprayed the children with bullets, first from a distance and then at close range, hitting some of them as many as 11 times, as he fired a semiautomatic rifle loaded with ammunition designed for maximum damage, officials said Saturday.

The state’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said all of the 20 children and 6 adults gunned down at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., had been struck more than once in the fusillade.

He said their wounds were “all over, all over.”

“This is a very devastating set of injuries,” he said at a briefing in Newtown. When he was asked if they had suffered after they were hit, he said, “Not for very long.”

The disclosures came as the police released the victims’ names. They ranged in age from 6 to 56.

The children — 12 girls and 8 boys — were all first-graders. One little girl had just turned 7 on Tuesday. All of the adults were women.

The White House announced that President Obama would visit Newtown on Sunday evening to meet with victims’ families and speak at an interfaith vigil.

On Saturday, as families began to claim the bodies of lost loved ones, some sought privacy. Others spoke out. Robbie Parker, whose 6-year-old daughter, Emilie, was among the dead, choked back tears as he described her as “bright, creative and very loving.”

But, he added, “as we move on from what happened here, what happened to so many people, let us not let it turn into something that defines us.”

On a day of anguish and mourning, other details emerged about how, but not why, the devastating attack had happened, turning a place where children were supposed to be safe into a national symbol of heartbreak and horror.

The Newtown school superintendent said the principal and the school psychologist had been shot as they tried to tackle the gunman in order to protect their students.

That was just one act of bravery during the maelstrom. There were others, said the superintendent, Janet Robinson. She said one teacher had helped children escape through a window.

Another shoved students into a room with a kiln and held them there until the danger had passed.

It was not enough: First responders described a scene of carnage in the two classrooms where the children were killed, with no movement and no one left to save, everything perfectly still.

The gunman, identified as Adam Lanza, 20, had grown up in Newtown and had an uncle who had been a police officer in New Hampshire. The uncle, James M. Champion, issued a statement expressing “heartfelt sorrow,” adding that the family was struggling “to comprehend the tremendous loss we all share.”

A spokesman for the Connecticut State Police, Lt. J. Paul Vance, said investigators continued to press for information about Mr. Lanza, and had collected “some very good evidence.” He also said that the one survivor of the killings, a woman who was shot and wounded at the school, would be “instrumental” in piecing together what had happened.

But it was unclear why Mr. Lanza had gone on the attack. A law enforcement official said investigators had not found a suicide note or messages that spoke to the planning of such a deadly attack. And Ms. Robinson, the school superintendent, said they had found no connection between Mr. Lanza’s mother and the school, in contrast to accounts from authorities on Friday that said she had worked there.

Dr. Carver said it appeared that all of the children had been killed by a “long rifle” that Mr. Lanza was carrying; a .223 Bushmaster semiautomatic rifle was one of the several weapons police found in the school. The other guns were semiautomatic pistols, including a .10 mm Glock and a .9 mm Sig Sauer.

The bullets Mr. Lanza used were “designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in,” resulting in deep damage, Dr. Carver said. As to how many bullets Mr. Lanza had fired, Dr. Carver said he did not have an exact count. “There were lots of them,” he said.

He said that parents had identified their children from photographs to spare them from seeing the gruesome results of the rampage. He said that 4 doctors and 10 technicians had done the autopsies and that he had personally performed seven, all on first-graders.

“This is probably the worst I have seen or the worst that I know of any of my colleagues having seen,” said Dr. Carver, who is 60 and has been Connecticut’s chief medical examiner since 1989.
He said that only Mr. Lanza and his first victim — his mother, Nancy Lanza — remained to be autopsied. He said he would do those post-mortems on Sunday.

Officials said the killing spree began early on Friday at the house where the Lanzas lived. There, Mr. Lanza shot his mother in the face, making her his first victim, the authorities said. Then, after taking three guns that belonged to her, they said, he climbed into her car for the short drive to the school.

Outfitted in combat gear, Mr. Lanza shot his way in, defeating a security system requiring visitors to be buzzed in. This contradicted earlier reports that he had been recognized and allowed to enter the one-story building. “He was not voluntarily let into the school at all,” Lieutenant Vance said. “He forced his way in.”

The lieutenant’s account was consistent with recordings of police dispatchers who answered call after call from adults at the school. “The front glass has been broken,” one dispatcher cautioned officers who were rushing there, repeating on the police radio what a 911 caller had said on the phone. “They are unsure why.”

The dispatchers kept up a running account of the drama at the school. “The individual I have on the phone indicates continuing to hear what he believes to be gunfire,” one dispatcher said.

Soon, another dispatcher reported that the “shooting appears to have stopped,” and the conversation on the official radios turned to making sure that help was available — enough help.

“What is the number of ambulances you will require?” a dispatcher asked.

The answer hinted at the unthinkable scope of the tragedy: “They are not giving us a number.”

Another radio transmission, apparently from someone at the school, underlined the desperation: “You might want to see if the surrounding towns can send E.M.S. personnel. We’re running out real quick, real fast.”

Inside the school, teachers and school staff members had scrambled to move children to safety as the massacre began. Maryann Jacob, a library clerk, said she initially herded students behind a bookcase against a wall “where they can’t be seen.” She said that spot had been chosen in practice drills for school lockdowns, but on Friday, she had to move the pupils to a storage room “because we discovered one of our doors didn’t lock.”

Ms. Jacob said the storage room had crayons and paper that they tore up for the children to color while they waited. “They were asking what was going on,” she said. “We said: ‘We don’t know. Our job is just to be quiet.’ ” But she said that she did know, because she had called the school office and learned that the school was under siege.

It was eerily silent in the school when police officers rushed in with their rifles drawn. There were the dead or dying in one section of the building, while elsewhere, those who had eluded the bullets were under orders from their teachers to remain quiet in their hiding places.

The officers discovered still more carnage: After gunning down the children and the school employees, the authorities said, Mr. Lanza had killed himself.

The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, 47, and the psychologist, Mary Sherlach, 56, were among the dead, as were the teachers Rachel Davino, 29; Anne Marie Murphy, 52; and Victoria Soto, 27. Lauren Rousseau, 30, had started as a full-time teacher in September after years of working as a substitute. “It was the best year of her life,” The News-Times quoted her mother (http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Lauren-Rousseau-The-best-year-of-her-life-4120850.php), Teresa, a copy editor at the newspaper, as saying.

Ms. Soto reportedly shooed her first graders into closets and cabinets when she heard the first shots, and then, by some accounts, told the gunman the youngsters were in the gym. Her cousin, James Willsie, told ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/tragedy-elementary-school-fallen-teachers-story-17980665) that she had “put herself between the gunman and the kids.”

“She lost her life protecting those little ones,” he said.

School officials have said there are no immediate plans to reopen Sandy Hook Elementary. Staff members will gather at the high school on Monday to discuss what happened, and students will be assigned to attend other schools by Wednesday.

Dorothy Werden, 49, lives across the street from Christopher and Lynn McDonnell, who lost their daughter Grace, 7, in the rampage. Ms. Werden remembered seeing Grace get on a bus Friday, as she did every morning at 8:45. Shortly afterward, she received a call that there had been a lockdown at the school — something that happens periodically, she said, because there is a prison nearby. It was only when she saw police cars from out of town speed past her that she knew something was seriously wrong.

Like the rest of the nation, she said, local residents were struggling with a single question: Why?

“Why did he have to go to the elementary school and kill all of those defenseless children?” Ms. Werden asked.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyregion/gunman-kills-20-children-at-school-in-connecticut-28-dead-in-all.html?ref=nyregion

Merry
December 15th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Right, so it appears that the rifle belonged to his mother, who "loved guns". Would he still have done it if she didn't and/or there were no guns in the house?

He obviously already knew how to use them, of course. Just how many people are members of shooting ranges or engage in similar "sport" and take their children?


A Mother, a Gun Enthusiast and the First Victim

By MATT FLEGENHEIMER and RAVI SOMAIYA

NEWTOWN, Conn. — Nancy Lanza loved guns, and often took her sons to one of the shooting ranges here in the suburbs northeast of New York City, where there is an active community of gun enthusiasts, her friends said. At a local bar, she sometimes talked about her gun collection.

It was one of her guns that was apparently used to take her life on Friday. Her killer was her son Adam Lanza, 20, who then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School, where he killed 26 more people, 20 of them small children (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html), before shooting himself, the authorities said.

Ms. Lanza’s fascination with guns became an important focus of attention on Saturday as investigators tried to determine what caused Mr. Lanza to carry out one of the worst massacres in the nation’s history.

Investigators have linked Ms. Lanza to five weapons: two powerful handguns, two traditional hunting rifles and a semiautomatic rifle that is similar to weapons used by troops in Afghanistan. Her son took the two handguns and the semiautomatic rifle to the school. Law enforcement officials said they believed the guns were acquired legally and were registered.

Ms. Lanza, 52, had gone through a divorce in 2008 and was described by friends as social and generous to strangers, but also high-strung, as if she were holding herself together. She lived in a large Colonial home here with Adam Lanza, and had struggled to help him cope with a developmental disorder that often left him reserved and withdrawn, according to relatives, friends and former classmates.

At some point, he had dropped out of the Newtown school system. An older son, Ryan, did not live with Ms. Lanza.

In a statement on Saturday night, her ex-husband, Peter Lanza, an executive at General Electric, said he was cooperating with investigators. “We are in a state of disbelief and trying to find whatever answers we can,” he said. “We, too, are asking why.”

He added: “Like so many of you, we are saddened but struggling to make sense of what has transpired.”

Ms. Lanza’s brother James Champion, a former police officer who lives in Kingston, N.H., said on Saturday that agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation had questioned family members on Friday night.

Mr. Champion would not discuss whether Adam Lanza had a developmental disorder or mental illness.

“On behalf of Nancy’s mother and siblings, we reach out to the community of Newtown to express our heartfelt sorrow for the incomprehensible loss of innocence that has affected so many,” Mr. Champion said in a statement.

He said Ms. Lanza had grown up and lived in Kingston with her husband and sons before they left in 1998. He said he had not seen Adam Lanza in eight years.

Ms. Lanza’s sister-in-law Marsha Lanza, who lives in Illinois, said Adam Lanza had been home-schooled for a time because his mother was not “satisfied with the school.”

Former classmates here described him as nervous, with a flat affect.

“He was always different — keeping to himself, fidgeting and very quiet,” said a classmate, Alex Israel. “But I could always tell he was a supersmart kid, maybe just socially awkward, something just off about him. The same went for when I went to his house. His mother was always nice to me; she was a kind, typical suburban mom as far as I remember. As time went on, he continued to keep to himself and I branched out more, so not much contact with him after middle school.

“By the time high school came around, he did sort of disappear,” she added. “I’d see him in the halls walking quickly with his briefcase he carried, but I never had a class with him and never saw him with friends. I was yearbook editor and I remember he declined to be photographed or give us a senior quote or baby picture.”

Some former classmates said they had been told that Mr. Lanza had Asperger’s syndrome, which is considered a high-functioning form of autism.

News reports on Friday suggested that Ms. Lanza had worked at the elementary school where the shooting occurred, but on Saturday the school superintendent said there was no evidence that she had ever worked there.

The authorities said it was not clear why Mr. Lanza had gone to the school.

Ms. Lanza was a slender woman with blond shoulder-length hair who enjoyed craft beers, jazz and landscaping. She often went to a local restaurant and music spot, My Place, where at beer tastings on Tuesday evenings, she sometimes talked about her gun collection, recalled an acquaintance, Dan Holmes, the owner of a landscaping company in Newtown.

“She had several different guns,” Mr. Holmes said. “I don’t know how many. She would go target shooting with her kids.”

Many of those who knew Ms. Lanza in Newtown were at a loss to describe what she did for a living. Her brother in New Hampshire said she had not been working, but had once been a stockbroker.

Louise Tambascio, owner of My Place, said Ms. Lanza volunteered occasionally.

“She stayed with Adam,” Ms. Tambascio said, adding that, as a younger child, he “couldn’t get along with the kids in school.”

Ms. Lanza spoke often of her landscaping, Mr. Holmes recalled, and later hired him to do work on her home.

He recently dispatched a team to put up Christmas decorations at her house — garlands on the front columns and white lights atop the shrubbery.

After the work was complete, Ms. Lanza sent Mr. Holmes a text: “That went REALLY well!”

Jim Leff, a musician, often sat next to her at the bar and made small talk, he said in an interview on Saturday.

On one occasion, Mr. Leff said, he had gone to Newtown to discuss lending money to a friend. As the two men negotiated the loan, Ms. Lanza overheard and offered to write the man a check.
“She was really kind and warm,” Mr. Leff said, “but she always seemed a little bit high-strung.”

He declined to elaborate, but in a post on his personal Web site, he said he felt a distance from her that was explained when he heard, after the shootings, “how difficult her troubled son,” Adam, “was making things for her.”

She was “handling a very difficult situation with uncommon grace,” he wrote.

She was “a big, big gun fan,” he added on his Web site.

There are many gun enthusiasts in this area, residents said.

When some people who live near the elementary school heard the shots fired by Mr. Lanza on Friday, they said they were not surprised.

“I really didn’t think anything of it,” said a resident, Ray Rinaldi. “You hear gun shots around here all the time.”

Neighbors recalled Ms. Lanza as a regular at Labor Day picnics and “ladies’ nights out” for a dice game called bunco.

“We would rotate houses,” said Rhonda Cullens, 52. “I don’t remember Nancy ever having it at her house.”

Ms. Cullens said Ms. Lanza spoke often about gardening — exchanging the sorts of questions typical of the neighborhood: Is maintenance worth the trouble for a house like the Lanzas’, scarcely visible from the street?

But for many of those on Yogananda Street, where the Lanzas lived, the recollections about Ms. Lanza were incomplete.

“Who were they?” said Len Strocchia, 46, standing beside his daughter as camera crews came through the neighborhood. “I’m sure we rang their door bell on Halloween.”

He looked down the block, then turned back to his daughter. “I’m sure of it,” he said.

Ms. Lanza’s sister-in-law Marsha Lanza also struggled to make sense of events. “I just don’t have an answer,” she said, starting to cry. “I wish I had an answer for you. I wish somebody had saw it coming.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyregion/friends-of-gunmans-mother-his-first-victim-recall-her-as-generous.html?ref=nyregion

ZippyTheChimp
December 16th, 2012, 09:22 AM
One of the weapons found at the scene is an AR-15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15) semi-automatic rifle. It is similar to the military M16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle), of which I have experience. The .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges are also similar, the biggest difference is chamber pressure.

The rifle in its variants is very popular, just search AR-15 (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ar-15&oq=ar-15&gs_l=youtube.3..0l10.3025.4609.0.7741.5.5.0.0.0.0. 88.355.5.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.0Gmpfz6MeXo) in YouTube.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySf9TGHhQhM&feature=player_embedded

mariab
December 16th, 2012, 12:15 PM
Out of the mouths of babes. One of the students sequestered with their teacher, waiting for the danger to pass, told everyone "I'll lead the way out, I know karate."

The principal Dawn Hocksprung, having just come out of an administrators meeting, lunged at the murderer to try to stop him, and lost her life doing so.

mariab
December 16th, 2012, 12:21 PM
Another one stopped.

http://news.msn.com/us/ind-man-with-47-guns-arrested-after-school-threat

eddhead
December 16th, 2012, 08:46 PM
The principal Dawn Hocksprung, having just come out of an administrators meeting, lunged at the murderer to try to stop him, and lost her life doing so.

I understand the school psychologist did as well. It goes without saying that they are heroes.

Today, there are about as many registered guns in America than there are people. It is time for Obama to step up and take a stand for gun control. A good starting point would be an effect ban on assault rifles, a national registration system, and a cooling off period.

BBMW
December 17th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Sorry, but it's not going to happen. Obama could do anything he wanted to, but nothing is going to get through the House. There are also a good number of democrats in the senate who come from pro gun states that would put their seats in jeopardy if they voted for any king of gun ban.

ZippyTheChimp
December 17th, 2012, 10:52 AM
From a news report posted in this thread:
There are many gun enthusiasts in this area, residents said.

When some people who live near the elementary school heard the shots fired by Mr. Lanza on Friday, they said they were not surprised.

“I really didn’t think anything of it,” said a resident, Ray Rinaldi. “You hear gun shots around here all the time.” Newtown, CT is the home of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://www.nssf.org/industry/aboutNSSF.cfm), about two miles (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=11+Mile+Hill+Road+Newtown,+CT&ll=41.412737,-73.272114&spn=0.032571,0.082655&hnear=11+Mile+Hill+Rd,+Newtown,+Fairfield,+Connect icut+06470&t=h&z=14) from the Sandy Hook School (the white building to the west of Treadwell Park).



The Sad Truth About Newtown's Failed Effort to Tighten Gun Laws

Adam Clark Estes

With each passing minute, more heart-breaking details about last week's school shooting pour out of Newtown. Few are as frustrating to read as the story of the town's struggle with gun laws. Newtown, like many American towns, is filled with hunters and responsible gun owners. It is also filled with a more troubling group of people, people that like to load up targets with explosives and shoot them with assault rifles at illegitimate ranges just to see the flames and feel the shock wave. Meanwhile, other citizens notice that even at the legitimate ranges the sound of rifle rounds has been increasingly replaced by the distinctive bursts of automatic weapons at all times of day and night. As The New York Times reported on Sunday night (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/nyregion/in-newtown-conn-a-stiff-resistance-to-gun-restrictions.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0&pagewanted=all), the people of Newtown tried to get a handle on the gun problem earlier this year. Thanks in part to the nation's second most powerful gun lobby, Newtown's efforts were quashed.

Newtown is home to the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), which is located just across the highway from Sandy Hook Elementary School. This should serve as proof that the town is relatively open-minded about guns. But as the number of gunfire complaints stacked up, Newtown police chief Michael Kehoe appealed to the town council for help. This lead to a couple of crowded town hall meetings, where a representative from the NSSF spoke and said that the danger of swimming was greater than that of guns. "No safety concerns exist," he said of the town's guns. The ordinance drafted up by a bi-partisan group of county officials would have imposed new rules on shooting and required new targets and firearms used at ranges to be approved by the Fire Chief. It was shelved.

There's no way of knowing what would've happened if the ordinance had been passed or if it would've prevented the massacre at Sandy Hook. However, it does illustrate well the struggle that change gun laws for reasons even as simple as keeping noise down. Now that President Obama has made changing gun laws an imperative, we're sure to see that struggle amplify across the country. The latest reports say the president will introduce a ban on high-capacity magazines, a measure that will be joined by Diane Feinstein's recently announced bill to ban assault rifles. So far, the National Rifle Association and the NSSF have remained silent about the tragedy (http://abcnews.go.com/US/nra-silent-school-shooting/story?id=17993360). Expect that to change quickly as Congress goes back into session in a couple of weeks and these bills make their way to the floor.

Copyright © 2012 by The Atlantic Monthly Group

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 11:14 AM
Sorry, but it's not going to happen. Obama could do anything he wanted to, but nothing is going to get through the House. There are also a good number of democrats in the senate who come from pro gun states that would put their seats in jeopardy if they voted for any king of gun ban.

I wouldn't be so sure. While I agree that today's policial enviornment does not support comprehensive gun control legislation, I believe we are approaching a point where political pressure may be mounting to force the enactment of seletive initiatives such as those outlined in my previous message.

First consideraton may be a movment toward regulating high-capacity magazine assault weapons.

BBMW
December 17th, 2012, 11:36 AM
^
The last time the Democrats tried that, it cost them control of Congress for a long time. While this attack has mostly the usual gun control advocates riled up, if Columbine and Aurora didn't change anything, this won't either.

And there's another looming problem. The courts may veto any new, and much existing gun control legislation. There was a recent ruling out of Illinois that overturned a ban on carrying handguns based on the Second Amendment. I'm guessing this one is going to the Supreme Court. I don't think any kind of assault rife ban would survive in the courts now.

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 12:13 PM
The second amendment contains two conditions relating to the right to bear arms. The first, which was a reference to the importance of armed militias, was largely overlooked by the Supreme Court. Other than political considerations, I am not sure why, but so be it. Another example of an activist court.

The second, "a well-regulated militia" (regulated being the operative term) may provide a tactical consideration for control advocates. By using this phrase, the framers explicitly provide the justification to enact legislation to regulate arms ownership.

I have not read Scalia's recent opinion on hand-gun restrictions for some time now, but I do recall even his opinion warned against over interpeting the scope of the ruling to anything beyond the possession of hand guns for personal safety. If there is a right for individuals to bear arms, it is clearly not a limitless right; surely individuals do not have the right to possess bazookas are SAMs for instance; so it is a question as to where the line gets drawn. I think a solid case can be made for the right to regulate the number and types of arms individuals can possess for the purpose of self-defense.

It s not necessarily what I am looking for, but at this point, I'll take it.

ZippyTheChimp
December 17th, 2012, 12:30 PM
While this attack has mostly the usual gun control advocates riled up, if Columbine and Aurora didn't change anything, this won't either.Right Wingnuts, including members of Congress, spoke up immediately after Columbine and Aurora. All have declined this time, except one Tea Bag idiot from Texas.


I'm guessing this one is going to the Supreme Court. I don't think any kind of assault rife ban would survive in the courts now.You should research the interlocking concepts of "popular constitutionalism" and "judicial supremacy."

If you look at many landmark Supreme Court rulings, you'll find that they haven't influenced public opinion, but lagged behind public opinion and eventually reconciled to reflect it. It is going on right now, with the Supreme Court taking up two cases on gay-marriage, which may result in DOMA being declared unconstitutional.

So what's changed? Is Constitutional Law different from the 1990s? Has the Court become more liberal?

Maybe you should check polling trends on public opinion of gay marriage.

BBMW
December 17th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Funny, we have some gay marriage cases hitting the court. Should be interesting (but off topic here.)

Also, I know this thread is turning down the gun control path (and I was part of that.) Maybe that subthread should go to one of the existing gun control threads.

Finally, I'm going to throw this article in here. What do you do when you can see something like this coming?

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

Ninjahedge
December 17th, 2012, 02:50 PM
I think the only thing that has right now is simple.

This is kicking a bag of puppies.

You talk about the movie theater and you see a crazy kid walking in shooting adults. The first thing advocates say is "well if someone else had a gun....."


This, however, CANNOT be argued like that. THEY WERE KIDS. NOBODY has argued that 6yo's should carry firearms.

What scares me is the hinting in the media about "taking measures" to "insure there is no recurrence". How would they do that? By having school in prison facilities? By having armed guards? Are we teetering on Martial Law being enacted in order to protect the questionable "freedoms" of a minority of individuals that really have no clear concept of what this is?

The reality is simple. The 2nd was put there so that our municipalities could fight back against a centralized government. The only clear case when this happened was the Civil War, and even that was questionable. It was not written for modern weaponry, or clairvoyant enough to predict the centralization our government has evolved into.

The ONLY ARGUMENT I have ever seen that makes sense in this whole rigamarole is "protection", but in the sense of small scale invasions of your own home or property, and even then there is a significant risk posed to your safety. Having 1, 2 or even 5 revolvers in the house is dangerous, but you would be hard pressed to bust into a school with 5 revolvers and lay waste to 30 people.

The key here is simple, if the ONLY argument against certain gun laws is "my freedom", "the Second Amendment", or a vague reference to "protection", then there IS NO ARGUMENT. Semi-automatics, extended clips, hollow point bullets, and any number of a dozen or so additional items have no direct bearing on the 2nd, your "freedom", or your "protection" and should be forfeited in the name of the safety of the MANY around you that find a bullet to the head a lot more freedom robbing than not being able to carry a Glock.

ZippyTheChimp
December 17th, 2012, 03:24 PM
Funny, we have some gay marriage cases hitting the court. Should be interesting (but off topic here.)Why is it funny, and how is it off-topic? You brought up what the Supreme Court may or may not do. I just introduced a point that public opinion influences the Court.


Also, I know this thread is turning down the gun control path (and I was part of that.)Are you uncomfortable talking about it here? There was some initial talk by some that "now isn't the right time to talk about it." In my opinion - if not now, when? In an article in a previous post, Ezra Klein spoke of this:
When we first collected (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/) much of this data, it was after the Aurora, Colo. shootings, and the air was thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”

Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.


Finally, I'm going to throw this article in here. What do you do when you can see something like this coming?

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.htmlWhat's your point here - because we can't take care of everything, it's OK to take care of nothing?

stache
December 17th, 2012, 03:32 PM
Turns out the family is wealthy.

BBMW
December 17th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Whatever you think the 2nd Amendment was about, or should be about, it no longer relevent. The SCOTUS declared that confers an individual right, so it does. End of story. Unless, of course, you can come up with two thirds of both houses of Congress and three quarters of the state legislatures to pass a repeal of the 2A, which you can't.

The question remains, what are the limits of the right conferred by the 2nd Amendment? There are cases coming down the judicial 'pike that will likely answer this. For no, and likely the next several years, the balance of the court is unlikely the change, and the judges that make the prior precident's will likely be making the new ones. If you look at the background of the 2nd, and translate that to what kinds of weapons it covers, they answer is going to more rather then less. It wasn't about hunting or personal protection. It was about military weapons, and making sure the citizenry had access to them.

Now, does anyone want people taking high powered military weapons an shooting up innocent citizens (especially, but certainly not limited to school children)? Obviously not. Is this type of thing going to happen with these weapons in circulation, yes (because it has been.)

Let's say you were magically get rid of the 2nd Amendment, and pass whatever gun laws you like, is that really going to change anything? Not so much. There are millions of these guns (high capacity semi-autos, both pistols and rifles) in circulation, and there owners are not going to give them up. They'll go underground, but still circulate. The black marketeers will hook up with Chinese and Easter Eurpean sources, and keep bringing them in (because they'll be a substantial black market.) Face it, gun control just doesn't work. CT has, according the the Brady Bunch, the fifth toughest gun laws int he country. AFAIK all the guns used in the attack were legally bought in CT.

In the end, if crazy people want to kill people, they will.


I think the only thing that has right now is simple.

This is kicking a bag of puppies.

You talk about the movie theater and you see a crazy kid walking in shooting adults. The first thing advocates say is "well if someone else had a gun....."


This, however, CANNOT be argued like that. THEY WERE KIDS. NOBODY has argued that 6yo's should carry firearms.

What scares me is the hinting in the media about "taking measures" to "insure there is no recurrence". How would they do that? By having school in prison facilities? By having armed guards? Are we teetering on Martial Law being enacted in order to protect the questionable "freedoms" of a minority of individuals that really have no clear concept of what this is?

The reality is simple. The 2nd was put there so that our municipalities could fight back against a centralized government. The only clear case when this happened was the Civil War, and even that was questionable. It was not written for modern weaponry, or clairvoyant enough to predict the centralization our government has evolved into.

The ONLY ARGUMENT I have ever seen that makes sense in this whole rigamarole is "protection", but in the sense of small scale invasions of your own home or property, and even then there is a significant risk posed to your safety. Having 1, 2 or even 5 revolvers in the house is dangerous, but you would be hard pressed to bust into a school with 5 revolvers and lay waste to 30 people.

The key here is simple, if the ONLY argument against certain gun laws is "my freedom", "the Second Amendment", or a vague reference to "protection", then there IS NO ARGUMENT. Semi-automatics, extended clips, hollow point bullets, and any number of a dozen or so additional items have no direct bearing on the 2nd, your "freedom", or your "protection" and should be forfeited in the name of the safety of the MANY around you that find a bullet to the head a lot more freedom robbing than not being able to carry a Glock.

mariab
December 17th, 2012, 03:59 PM
Comforter-in-chief: Obama offers the 'love and prayers of a nation' as he meets with Sandy Hook victim's families (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hundreds-mourn-victims-newtown-memorial-service-article-1.1221487)http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1222024.1355768936!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/index_635_390/390-obama-newtown.jpg (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hundreds-mourn-victims-newtown-memorial-service-article-1.1221487)President Obama offered "love and prayers of a nation" to families of Adam Lanza's gun rampage. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hundreds-mourn-victims-newtown-memorial-service-article-1.1221487)


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york#ixzz2FLSMpHW0

infoshare
December 17th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Let's say you were magically get rid of the 2nd Amendment, and pass whatever gun laws you like, is that really going to change anything? Not so much. There are millions of these guns (high capacity semi-autos, both pistols and rifles) in circulation, and there owners are not going to give them up. They'll go underground, but still circulate. The black marketeers will hook up with Chinese and Easter Eurpean sources, and keep bringing them in (because they'll be a substantial black market.) Face it, gun control just doesn't work. CT has, according the the Brady Bunch, the fifth toughest gun laws int he country. AFAIK all the guns used in the attack were legally bought in CT.

In the end, if crazy people want to kill people, they will.

What I liked about that particular observation - other than it makes perfect sense to me - is that is not not a 'political partisan' argument: it is an 'obvious' conclusion.

Thanks for bringing up that most important point, I will keep it, and hold on to it: anyone who does not like it will have to - as the saying goes - "pry it from my cold dead hands".

ZippyTheChimp
December 17th, 2012, 04:08 PM
Face it, gun control just doesn't work. CT has, according the the Brady Bunch, the fifth toughest gun laws int he country. AFAIK all the guns used in the attack were legally bought in CT.Do you realize how convoluted that makes your argument?


In the end, if crazy people want to kill people, they will.So there's no mental illness in other countries?

Anything else to say about "law-abiding citizens?"

Ninjahedge
December 17th, 2012, 04:16 PM
It isn't obvious.

Somehow the primary argument that keeps coming out is "Well, they are still going to be there, so it will not change anything if you make it illegal".

Straw man.

Also, the bill of rights was a construction to try and give people rights that would help them survive as a community and as a nation. If that "right" starts infringing on the LIVES of others, legal arguments about the "constitutionality" of owning arms that makes it exceedingly easy to kill LARGE AMOUNTS of innocents comes into question.

There have been other legislative measures that were attempted to make sure someone's psychotic 20 year old son would not come home, shoot you, take your guns and then go on a shooting rampage at an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. For instance, the "lock" device that would only allow the owner to use the weapon being one, but ANY legislation, practical or not, that is proposed is always fought tooth-and-nail.


This case is such a PERFECT example of how F'd up the reasoning has been justifying the current system. "They are only for a hobby", "I know how to use them". Well, they were, and she did, and she dead.

Ninjahedge
December 17th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Zip, I also agree, but I did not get into it in my last post.

Somehow the one thing that seems to be missing in most of these arguments is how a country like, say, England, can have just as high (and in some cases higher) a rate of violent crime and a MUCH lower rate of homicide (especially using firearms).

After all, the guns are all over, and you can't do anything about it, so laws wouldn't do anything!



BBMW, Info, the key here is not blanket bans and reactionary laws. It is also not wrapping yourself in a flag and convoluted circuitous logic about the "rights" one has to own a lethal device of mass homicide.

The issue here is how to control it.

If there IS NO OTHER WAY TO CONTROL IT, then banning is the only other solution. I have not heard a single feasible solution from the gun lobbies about how to reduce the violence. (arresting people has only cost us billions and has not made a dent in our crime rate). Tagging or other measures might work, but again, they do not want this.

We need a solution, not a bunch of rejection.

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 04:35 PM
Whatever you think the 2nd Amendment was about, or should be about, it no longer relevent. The SCOTUS declared that confers an individual right, so it does. End of story. Unless, of course, you can come up with two thirds of both houses of Congress and three quarters of the state legislatures to pass a repeal of the 2A, which you can't.

Again, the scope of the opinion was extremely limited. We should not conclude that the opinion infers that all weapons are protected under all circumstances.


The question remains, what are the limits of the right conferred by the 2nd Amendment? There are cases coming down the judicial 'pike that will likely answer this. For no, and likely the next several years, the balance of the court is unlikely the change, and the judges that make the prior precident's will likely be making the new ones. If you look at the background of the 2nd, and translate that to what kinds of weapons it covers, they answer is going to more rather then less. It wasn't about hunting or personal protection. It was about military weapons, and making sure the citizenry had access to them.
Again, that is a stretch. While the 'background" of the 2nd amendment was oriented toward assuring that mlitias had access to military weapons. If the court can stretch the meaning of the term militia to include citizens, it can also rule favorably on cases seeking to restrict individual ownership of military weapons.

Once again, the operative term in the second amemdment is "A well-regulated militia"



Let's say you were magically get rid of the 2nd Amendment, and pass whatever gun laws you like, is that really going to change anything? Not so much. There are millions of these guns (high capacity semi-autos, both pistols and rifles) in circulation, and there owners are not going to give them up. They'll go underground, but still circulate. The black marketeers will hook up with Chinese and Easter Eurpean sources, and keep bringing them in (because they'll be a substantial black market.) .

Is that what happens in other countries?


CT has, according the the Brady Bunch, the fifth toughest gun laws int he country. AFAIK all the guns used in the attack were legally bought in CT. Face it, gun control just doesn't work.

That is an absurd conclusion. Ct's gun laws may be tough by current standards, but they are not tough enough. A restriction on high-capacity magazine assualt weapons would have mitigated if not eliminated the number of deaths.


In the end, if crazy people want to kill people, they will.

Only if they have guns.

eddhead
December 17th, 2012, 04:42 PM
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

Add me to the list of people who do not understand your point.

GordonGecko
December 17th, 2012, 04:48 PM
From a news report posted in this thread:Newtown, CT is the home of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://www.nssf.org/industry/aboutNSSF.cfm), about two miles (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=11+Mile+Hill+Road+Newtown,+CT&ll=41.412737,-73.272114&spn=0.032571,0.082655&hnear=11+Mile+Hill+Rd,+Newtown,+Fairfield,+Connect icut+06470&t=h&z=14) from the Sandy Hook School (the white building to the west of Treadwell Park).



The Sad Truth About Newtown's Failed Effort to Tighten Gun Laws


The thing of that is, gun rights advocates are the loudest & most aggressive. They typically shout down gun control advocates who are either not as militant or simply apathetic to act. And let's face it, the angry loud people are the ones with the guns. But with a disgusting & abhorrent event like this, gun control sympathizers are no longer apathetic to action and will stand up for their beliefs. I bet you if those same gun control measures came up for vote again in Newtown they would overwhelmingly be passed

mariab
December 17th, 2012, 09:02 PM
Jesus. She was afraid of him even then.

Adam Lanza’s babysitter Ryan Kraft stunned by mass murder at Sandy Hook Elementary School

Kraft babysat Lanza a decade ago. He recalls receiving ‘odd’ instructions from Lanza’s mother including ‘never turn my back or even go to the bathroom.’

By David Boroff (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=David Boroff) / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Monday, December 17, 2012, 9:22 AM

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1221854.1355754303!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/babysitter18n-1-web.jpgabc 7 News

Ryan Kraft was babysitter for Adam Lanza, who killed 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

A man who served as Adam Lanza's babysitter 10 years ago noticed some unusual behavior from the boy, but never dreamed the child would become a mass murderer.
The memories came quickly back for Ryan Kraft when he heard the news that Lanza had gunned down 20 students and six adults before taking his own life at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut on Friday. Lanza, 20, had started the killing spree that morning by killing his own mother.

RELATED: NANCY LANZA FEARED SON WAS 'GETTING WORSE,' TOLD FRIEND 'HE WAS BURNING HIMSELF WITH A LIGHTER' (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nancy-lanza-feared-son-adam-worse-article-1.1221505)

OBAMA ATTENDS NEWTOWN VIGIL, OFFERS 'LOVE AND PRAYERS OF A NATION' TO FAMILIES OF VICTIMS
(http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hundreds-mourn-victims-newtown-memorial-service-article-1.1221487)
IN TRAGEDY, HEROISM AND SACRIFICE: PHOTOS OF SANDY HOOK VICTIMS (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting-victims-gallery-1.1221180)

"Nothing went through my head," Ryan Kraft told KABC (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8923027) in Los Angeles. "I just got really sick to my stomach and I just couldn't think for a while. I was shaking."
Kraft, who now lives in Hermosa Beach, Calif., was a neighbor of the Lanzas a decade ago. As a teenager he was asked to watch over Adam Lanza when the boy was nine or 10, according to reports.
"His mom, Nancy, had always instructed me to keep an eye on him at all times and never turn my back or even go to the bathroom or anything like that, which I found odd, but I really didn't ask," Kraft told KABC. "It wasn't any of my business, but looking back at it now, I guess maybe there was something else going on."
Lanza was quiet, Kraft said, but occasionally acted up.
"When I had put him to bed early or stopped doing something, he would be really unhappy about it and throw a tantrum in a way that a younger kid I would normally expect to behave," Kraft told KABC.
Even though he lives in California, a large part of Kraft's heart remains in Connecticut. He launched a website to raise money (http://www.crowdrise.com/SHSRelief) for the victim's families. And Kraft, who attended Sandy Hook Elementary School 15 years ago, is still trying to wrap his head around what happened.
"Adam always struck me as a really introverted kid. He was really really quiet," he told KCAL in Los Angeles (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/12/16/sandy-hook-shooters-former-babysitter-raising-money-for-victims/). "And whenever we were doing something whether he was building leggos or playing video games he was really focused on it, like he was in his own world."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/adam-lanza-babysitter-stunned-sandy-hook-tragedy-article-1.1221855#ixzz2FMfcdkYg

TREPYE
December 18th, 2012, 08:19 AM
​http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/nyregion/silent-since-shootings-nra-could-face-challenge-to-political-power.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=print


December 17, 2012
Silent Since Shootings, N.R.A. Could Face Challenge to Political Power
By NICHOLAS CONFESSORE, MICHAEL COOPER and MICHAEL LUO
Until recently, Debra Maggart considered the National Rifle Association an ally. As chairwoman of the Republican caucus in the Tennessee House of Representatives, she was a lifetime N.R.A. member and steadfastly supported its agenda, even voting for a bill that allowed guns in bars.


“How much more pro-Second Amendment can you be when you allow guns in a place that’s serving tequila?” she asked.


But when she and other Tennessee Republicans decided earlier this year not to move forward with an N.R.A. bill that would have allowed people to keep firearms locked in their cars in parking lots, Ms. Maggart became an object lesson in how the organization deploys its political power.


Upset that the bill, which the N.R.A. called the “Safe Commute Act,” had stalled, the group began working to unseat Ms. Maggart, the only member of the House leadership with a primary opponent. Billboards with her picture next to President Obama’s went up in her district, along with radio ads, newspaper ads and mailings. The N.R.A. and the other groups that opposed her in the primary spent around $155,000, she estimated. It would hardly be enough to register in many political races these days, but it was more than enough to beat Ms. Maggart — and draw notice in the State Capitol.


“They said I was shredding the Constitution, I was putting your family in danger, I was for gun control, I like Barack Obama,” Ms. Maggart said.


Even when the N.R.A. is silent — as its Web site and Twitter feed remained Monday, after the second-deadliest school shooting in United States history — it wields one of the biggest sticks in politics: A $300 million budget, millions of members around the country and virtually unmatched ferocity in advancing its political and legislative interests.


Over the years, the N.R.A. has deployed armies of lobbyists around the country to knock back efforts to regulate guns and expand owners’ ability to carry concealed weapons in schools, parks, bars and churches. It has formed close partnerships with gun makers and business organizations around the country, working to protect manufacturers from liability and introduce model bills in state legislatures.


The group spent millions of dollars on political ads this year and, since the beginning of 2011, has spent 10 times more on lobbying than every gun control group combined. It claims majorities of lawmakers in both houses of Congress under the “pro-Second Amendment” banner. When Representative Carolyn McCarthy of New York introduced a measure last year to ban high-capacity magazines — used in Tucson by the gunman who shot her colleague, Representative Gabrielle Giffords, in the head — more than 130 Democrats signed on as co-sponsors. Not a single Republican would.


Yet the crucible of Newtown, some opponents argue, may provide the N.R.A. with the first genuine test of its political power in over a decade.


Having already won their most important priority — Supreme Court recognition of an individual constitutional right to bear arms — gun rights groups are increasingly fighting on terrain where they have less support, including pushing bills at the state and local level to carry concealed weapons in virtually any public setting. The N.R.A. continues to fight aggressively to dismantle existing law enforcement gun databases and to defeat efforts to apply background checks to more gun purchasers, measures that typically have solid public support.


In the post-Citizens United world, where checks from a handful of billionaires can rival the fund-raising of an entire presidential campaign, the N.R.A.’s treasury gives it less clout than before. The group’s $17 million in outside spending in 2012 was a small fraction of the total spent by the big outside groups. Moreover, some opponents believe the N.R.A.’s ever-tighter relationships with Republican officials and an electorate that evermore comprises suburban and urban voters who are female and nonwhite, give it less leverage over Democrats, even in red states.


On Monday, two pro-gun-rights Democrats, Senators Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Mark Warner of Virginia, said they would consider supporting new measures to limit guns. Both have “A” ratings from the N.R.A.


But any such measures would face an uphill battle. In 2009, the N.R.A. failed to muster enough votes in the Senate to pass an amendment allowing anyone granted a concealed-weapons permit in any state to carry their gun in any other state. Gun control groups hailed it as the N.R.A.’s first defeat in a floor vote in years — but 58 senators voted for the amendment.


Over the years the N.R.A. has perfected its strategy for responding to mass shootings: Lie low at first, then slow-roll any legislative push for a response.


After the shootings at Columbine High School in 1999, for example, an effort to close the so-called gun-show loophole, requiring unlicensed dealers at gun shows to run background checks, ultimately died in conference after being stalled for months.


After the massacre at Virginia Tech in 2007, Congress did manage to pass a modest measure that was designed to provide money to states to improve the federal background check system. But the N.R.A. secured a broad concession in the legislation, which pushed states to allow people with histories of mental illness to petition to have their gun rights restored.


Gun control proponents say that perception of the N.R.A.’s vast political clout largely dates to the 1994 midterm elections, when Republicans seized control of the House and Senate after passage of an assault weapons ban under President Clinton. That image was further enhanced in the 2000 election, when the N.R.A. claimed credit for helping elect George W. Bush to the White House. But later studies of those elections have tempered these assessments of the N.R.A.’s decisiveness.


In 2012, the group’s $14 million effort to rally voters against President Obama — the N.R.A.’s most important political priority — failed. In Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, a founder of Mayors Against Illegal Guns, gun control advocates have a public face with a significant bully pulpit and the financial wherewithal to back it up. Mr. Bloomberg spent $10 million nationally on political advertising in 2012, hoping to boost centrist candidates and those favoring gay rights and gun control. One notable success: A $3.3 million campaign by Mr. Bloomberg’s “super PAC,” Independence USA, helped defeat Representative Joe Baca of California, an N.R.A. favorite. Perhaps tellingly, the ads attacked Mr. Baca over water pollution, not guns.


“I put $600 million of my own money into trying to stop the tobacco companies from getting kids to smoke and convincing adults that it’s not in their health,” Mr. Bloomberg said in an NBC interview on Sunday. “That’s one issue. Who knows with this?”

TREPYE
December 18th, 2012, 08:21 AM
Well come on NRA, TALK! Pick ur head up and say something you reprehensible mothe****ers...

IrishInNYC
December 18th, 2012, 08:36 AM
Multiple pro-NRA Dem's are changing their stance on this already....changes will happen as a result of this incident, it just needs Obama to go after it in his 2nd term as hard as he did his health care plan in his 1st.

To me there is too much of a fixation on gun control though..... mental illness is the white elephant in this story (and many families).

Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy who displayed mental illness for most of his life.

infoshare
December 18th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy who displayed mental illness for most of his life.

Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy taking some type of psychiatric medication: prozac, zoloft, the whole spectrum of psychotropic drugs called 'meths'. Where is the 'discussion' about Big-Pharma: none, because it does not fit the political partisan narrative. So yes, there is too much 'fixation' on gun control; because the discussion is more often 'ideological' than 'rational'.

My - final - two cents on the subject. If anything more need be said on the 'gun control' issue, I hope we can take it to the appropriate thread so I can learn more about the Elementary School Shooting and the people of Newtown/Sandy Hook Connecticut.

TREPYE
December 18th, 2012, 10:10 AM
To me there is too much of a fixation on gun control though..... mental illness is the white elephant in this story (and many families).
Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy who displayed mental illness for most of his life.


Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy taking some type of psychiatric medication: prozac, zoloft, the whole spectrum of psychotropic drugs called 'meths'. Where is the 'discussion' about Big-Pharma: none, because it does not fit the political partisan narrative. So yes, there is too much 'fixation' on gun control; because the discussion is more often 'ideological' than 'rational'.

Mental state enables the intention, but the guns (and the simplicity of utilization) enable the elimination of human life folks, the guns do. A nut job with a butter knife could be a killer, a nut job with a rapid fire weapon could be a mass murderer.

Too much fixation on gun control (in particular the rapid fire type)? Considering its part in the "mass killing equation" I dont believe there can be too much of at this point.

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 10:38 AM
Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy taking some type of psychiatric medication: prozac, zoloft, the whole spectrum of psychotropic drugs called 'meths'.Do you have a source for this?

Would your profile include a guy who has a big fight with his wife or boss, spends the day in a bar throwing back shots, then goes home or to work with his gun? If you add all this up, you're talking about a sizable chunk of the population. And as I've said before, these conditions are not unique to America, yet we an outlier among nations on firearm homicides.


So yes, there is too much 'fixation' on gun control;Tell me when there's been any meaningful dialogue on gun control; it was hardly mentioned at all during the last election cycle.


because the discussion is more often 'ideological' than 'rational'.So which side has made the discussion ideological; who has tied it to social issues?
Thanks for bringing up that most important point, I will keep it, and hold on to it: anyone who does not like it will have to - as the saying goes - "pry it from my cold dead hands".Rational or ideological?

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 11:57 AM
If you add all this up, you're talking about a sizable chunk of the population.


Source (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml)

Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#KesslerPrevalence) When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people. Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion — about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 — who suffer from a serious mental illness.

IrishInNYC
December 18th, 2012, 12:53 PM
^ At that rate there are approx. 18.7 million (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html) people in the country with "serious mental illness". We all know more than one of those people whether we know it or not...scary stuff.

How many of those 18.7 million are not being helped because of the difficult/taboo/embarrassing/undiagnosed/etc nature of the problem?

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 01:53 PM
... or because of deficient or non-existant health care insurance? Mental Health is a concern even for people with Health Insurance as these polices tend to provide little in the way of financial protection for people requirng mental health care. And while it is a problem across the spectrum it is even more pronounced for the seriously disabled.

TREPYE
December 18th, 2012, 02:31 PM
^ At that rate there are approx. 18.7 million (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html) people in the country with "serious mental illness". We all know more than one of those people whether we know it or not...scary stuff.

How many of those 18.7 million are not being helped because of the difficult/taboo/embarrassing/undiagnosed/etc nature of the problem?


... and (thanks to the NRA) how many of them have accessibility to guns.

GordonGecko
December 18th, 2012, 02:33 PM
Let's not forget ammo control in this whole debate. Ammo should be regulated and maximum damage bullets banned all together

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 03:18 PM
Show me a mass killing and I'll show you a guy taking some type of psychiatric medication: prozac, zoloft, the whole spectrum of psychotropic drugs called 'meths'. Where is the 'discussion' about Big-Pharma: none, because it does not fit the political partisan narrative. So yes, there is too much 'fixation' on gun control; because the discussion is more often 'ideological' than 'rational'.

It is hard to rationalize this statement, with this fact from Slate


The day of the Newtown massacre, another lunatic (http://www.voanews.com/content/china-us-school-attacks-highlight-difference-in-gun-control/1567029.html) attacked a group of helpless school children, in the Henan province of China. There, because the assailant wielded a knife and not a gun, the result was 23 children and an adult with nasty injuries, but no deaths. This follows an established pattern. China, like the United States, has experienced a spate of mentally disturbed men attacking school children. But without easy access guns, Chinese maniacs seldom succeed in killing many.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2012/12/newtown_massacre_bloomberg_not_obama_knows_how_to_ beat_the_nra.html

You see it isn't that 'people kill people', but rather its 'people with guns whokill people'


My - final - two cents on the subject. If anything more need be said on the 'gun control' issue, I hope we can take it to the appropriate thread so I can learn more about the Elementary School Shooting and the people of Newtown/Sandy Hook Connecticut. I am sorry, but I do not think the issues are entirely seperate.

GordonGecko
December 18th, 2012, 03:32 PM
Yet I can hear gun advocates now arguing that China is a communist country because the people have no guns and the US is free because we do. This is the sort of rhetoric you have to deal with to even discuss common sense things like banning maximum damage bullets, requiring ID to purchase a gun, or banning concealed weapons in certain public areas

Ninjahedge
December 18th, 2012, 04:16 PM
OK, I am putting a nice big (figurative) target on me with this, but......


How many people are actually killed or hurt with guns in the US? As cataclysmicly overbalanced we are in regards to gun ownership in comparison to the rest of the WORLD, what percentage of people are even hurt with this?

The main problem with it is simple, as bad as the end result is, there are still not enough people that are directly effected by it to convince them to go against a well lobbied sales machine (the NRA et all) and put in relatively innocuous regulations that would make it marginally more difficult for a law-abiding "citizen" to get a gun, but MUCH harder for one to amass an armory, purchase accessories and other paraphernalia whose only purpose is mass damage, or utilize these things in a peaceful situation?

The psychology is simple. Until a gun owner has their own kids killed right in front of them by a "sane" person when they themselves have ready and unrestricted access to their own weapon, they will keep blaming something else for the problem. "I couldn't carry it concealed", "I could not carry it loaded w/o the safety on", "I could not fire more than 6 rounds befoe reloading....".

"I could quit any time".

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 05:11 PM
How many people are actually killed or hurt with guns in the US? As cataclysmicly overbalanced we are in regards to gun ownership in comparison to the rest of the WORLD, what percentage of people are even hurt with this?This information is readily available. It's been posted here many times, and there are Wiki links.

Look up homicide rates and firearm homicide rates. If you filter out the firearm component from the total rate, you'll find that the US is no longer an outlier. Its non-firearm homicide rate is in line with other developed countries.

As for what percentage are hurt, that's harder to figure out.

A lot more than 27 people were hurt in Newtown.

Nexis4Jersey
December 18th, 2012, 05:21 PM
I like how the media has thrown all us Aspies under the bus , there is no confirmed diagnosis that he had it just rumors and speculation. Yet the Media ran with it , Aspergers and Autism is not a Mental illness its a Nuro-Disorder.... 99% of Aspies aside from Outbursts and Screaming fits which you grow out of , aren't violent.... In fact we tend to be the victims in most cases ive counted close to 300 cases this year of Murder , assault or rape committed by a NT on an Aspie usually someone in the Family or inner friend circle. I could only find a few cases were a diagnosis ed aspie murder or harmed someone , its usually due to bullying or abuse and often involves the Family or inner friends. Its very rare for autistic people to become violent , and this sort of violence towards totally strangers doesn't make any sense along with what i'm hearing about him. The Fact that he couldn't feel pain or would self harm , Autistic people can feel pain which often triggers intense crying or hand flapping in severe autistic people while higher up on the scale will often cry and would not self harm. Severe Autistic people do Self Harm , but Severe Autistic people wouldn't have friends or be in school and any sort of loud noise or even a strange place would overload there sensory...

We do have Empathy , we can love , cry , care , become angry to a small extent , frustrated and just about every emotion that affects nuro-typicals. We do have to learn these various emotions , usually takes some time to perfect...but most understand them by time there 18. We do tend to isolate ourselves however most of ya do have friends....its not alot of friends but we do have friends. We tend to shy away from sudden loud noises and large crowds like large party....or gathering....

There are alot of Nuro/Mental health issues that are not being addressed in this country , once you turn 18 this country says "**** you" and everything becomes a struggle , you have to work 3x harder to get specialized classes , or any kind of help. College is a mess , there are only a few colleges in this region that cater to Autistic students the rest don't have a service or onsite help... Even before 18 its hard , this country doesn't seem to care about the disabled it rather demonize them then help them.... Up In Canada ive noticed they take care and help people with Nuro/Mental disablites lead a Normal life ,from birth to retirement....you get everything you need....I don't know why we can't be like them. But then again whenever I visit Canada I feel like there 15 years ahead of us socially....

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 05:30 PM
So let's bring this home. There were approx. 32,000 fire arm deaths and 200,000 injuries in the year 2010. That makes fire arm fatalities among the top 10 causes of deaths in the US in 2010.


The rates of firearms deaths in the U.S. vary significantly by race and sex. The U.S. national average was 10.2 deaths per 100,000 population in 2009. The highest rate was 28.4/100,000 for African-American males, more than quadruple the rate of 6.3/100,000 for white males. (CDC, 2009)
source: http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html (http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html)

Of course that only touches on NH's point which I believe is that it is easy to ignore gun violence because it doesn't touch everyone. Fair enough. But an episode like the one in Newtown is a potential game changer, because of the level of empathy people have for the victims and their families.

This was Mayberry RFD, a small town where people go out with their families for ice cream on Sundays. These poor people dropped their first-graders off at a country school in the morning, and never saw them alive again. It is horrifying, and people everywhere - soccer moms, little league coaches, all the rest - can relate to the terror of not being there for their 6 year-olds at a time when they needed them the most. The association of this horrible tragedy, with that type of empathy which transcends political ideology is a potential powerful catalyst for change.

And that is why the NRA is lurking in the dark corners right now, waiting for the smoke to clear and hoping this drops off the radar screens of soccer moms, and little league coaches so they can get back to spending millions supporting the gun lobby. And that is why Fox News wants to make you feel bad about having a discourse on gun control so soon after this horrible tragedy. And that is why some members of this forum do not want you to post thoughts regarding gun control on this thread.

IrishInNYC
December 18th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Official (http://home.nra.org/pdf/StatementAdvisory.pdf) statement from the NRA:

"The National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of thehorrific and senseless murders in Newtown.


Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given timefor mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.


The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this neverhappens again.


The NRA is planning to hold a major news conference in the Washington, DC areaon Friday, December 21.


Details will be released to the media at the appropriate time."

GordonGecko
December 18th, 2012, 06:37 PM
cue predicable NRA responses:

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"
"Obama hates your freedom"
"Susan Lanza is an American Hero"
"if those kids had automatic pistols in their hello kitty lunchboxes, none of this would have ever happened"

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 06:38 PM
Nice of them (the NRA)

eddhead
December 18th, 2012, 07:32 PM
@ nexis - I am not sure how I missed your post before, but all points, well taken. Of course if you speak to the issues raised in your last paragraph too loudly, the Ayn Rand set will call you a socialist.

ZippyTheChimp
December 18th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Sadly, there are already a number of conspiracy theories popping up both in the US and abroad.

The fact that there was so much misinformation released as the story was unfolding - the shooting of the assailants father in NJ, tat the mother was a teacher, the brother IDed as the assailant - just fueled the conspiracies.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/12/newtown-shooting-conspiracy-theories/60126/

Members of this site who are familiar with the 09/11 "Truthers" may know one such Wingnut, Alex Jones. Facebook suspended his account for violating "Facebook’s Statement of Rights and Responsibilities.”

http://www.infowars.com/facebook-suspends-account-for-questioning-official-narrative-on-shooting/

If you want to see how far out on the fringe this guy and his followers are, click on the videos.

IrishInNYC
December 19th, 2012, 09:01 AM
^Jones is crazy, I hear him discussed on The Stern Show from time to time. That said, on what basis is FB suspending accounts? Is it not everyone's "right" to question whatever they want? No matter how silly?

Before yesterday, when I was brushing up on the 1996 Tasmania mass shooting, I didn't realize that there was such a huge movement to free the killer and to expose the whole thing as a conspiracy (to initiate a gun-control reform in Australia).

Everything appears to be a "conspiracy" these days, which lessens their cause. That said, though I'm a skeptic by nature, parts of The Zeitgeist Movie (for instance) are compelling.

Ninjahedge
December 19th, 2012, 09:09 AM
This information is readily available. It's been posted here many times, and there are Wiki links.

Look up homicide rates and firearm homicide rates. If you filter out the firearm component from the total rate, you'll find that the US is no longer an outlier. Its non-firearm homicide rate is in line with other developed countries.

As for what percentage are hurt, that's harder to figure out.

A lot more than 27 people were hurt in Newtown.

Well.... at work I don't really have the time to parse/Wiki zip, so I was just throwing that out there.


But my question is not about how we compare to other countries, but how guns compare to any other cause of death. I am not validating them, because unlike many others, it is a 99% preventable cause of death. My point raised is from a heartless analytic POV that started bugging me as I was trying not to cry when seeing the pictures of the kids.

I guess the reason we put so much attention on something like this is that, unlike many other things (such as auto accidents) the whole deal with gun deaths is that, without guns, there IS no death. One can argue that there is some victimization of innocents, but what ratio of innocents saved to innocents KILLED do we need to have in order to justify it? Say 100 people not robbed to one person killed? (<- hypothetical sarcastic ratio!!!)

Sorry I brought it up, but sometimes in order to get to a solution, you have to dissemble the issue into its constituent parts rather than addressing it as an undefined enigmatic whole.

Ninjahedge
December 19th, 2012, 09:23 AM
The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

I am wondering what they are going to consider "contributions".

Probably an effort to make sure "mental patients" do not get access to guns... and push to allow teachers to carry them (even though almost NONE would want to).

Edd, I agree with your response there. You look at the # of killed in the US and subtract out gang or drug killings and you start to touch very little of the voting public.

This touched ALL of them.

ZippyTheChimp
December 19th, 2012, 09:29 AM
^Jones is crazy, I hear him discussed on The Stern Show from time to time. That said, on what basis is FB suspending accounts? Is it not everyone's "right" to question whatever they want? No matter how silly?Like WNY and many places on the net, Facebook is a private enterprise. I'm not familiar with their TOS, but whatever it is, you agree to it when you start an account.

eddhead
December 19th, 2012, 10:44 AM
Sorry I brought it up, but sometimes in order to get to a solution, you have to dissemble the issue into its constituent parts rather than addressing it as an undefined enigmatic whole.

I think it was a good point, for the reasons I outlined in my follow-up post.\

The fact that there was so much misinformation released as the story was unfolding - the shooting of the assailants father in NJ, tat the mother was a teacher, the brother IDed as the assailant - just fueled the conspiracies.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...heories/60126/ (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/12/newtown-shooting-conspiracy-theories/60126/)
Generally, I like the editorial content in The Atlantic Wire, but some of the people who post comments there are whack jobs.

mariab
December 19th, 2012, 04:38 PM
'Light amidst the darkness': Heroic teacher Victoria Soto remembered

Slideshow: Newtown school massacre (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/50201425/displaymode/1247/?wbSlideShowId=50201425&wbSection=news)


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/ss-121912-soto-funeral-tease.photoblog600.jpg (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/50201425/displaymode/1247/?wbSlideShowId=50201425&wbSection=news) /
A nation mourns after the second deadliest school shooting in U.S. history at Sandy Hook Elementary, which left 20 children and six staff members dead.
Launch slideshow (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/50201425/displaymode/1247/?wbSlideShowId=50201425&wbSection=news)

By Tracy Connor, Sandra Lilley and Tom Winter, NBC News

One of Newtown’s heroic teachers – remembered as a bright light on the darkest of days – was laid to rest Wednesday as the small Connecticut town’s week of grieving continued.
Mourners who arrived at a church in Stratford, Conn., for Victoria Soto’s funeral were handed ribbons of green, her favorite color.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/121218-soto-506p.380;380;7;70;0.jpg

Obtained by NBC News
Victoria Soto, 27, first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook elementary. Soto had taught for five years and was known by students as silly and loving.


Outside, they spoke of the 27-year-old’s selfless final act: She died trying to protect her first-grade students at Sandy Hook Elementary School from rifle fire during Friday’s massacre, according to her family.

“Mind-boggling what she had to go through,” said family friend Ryan Ortiz, 27. “No matter how many times I sit at home and think of what I would have done, you just can't imagine being in that situation.



“In my opinion, she was that light amidst the darkness that was going on that day in that school,” Ortiz said. “There's really no other way to remember her than being that light in that room."
Soto, who was in her fifth year of teaching, was finishing up her daily morning meeting with the students of Classroom 10 when gunman Adam Lanza began his rampage.

Relatives say they were told she hurried the kids into a closet behind her and tried to shield them from the bullets.
Some of the children in her class managed to survive the slaughter. Many did not.
Funerals were being held Wednesday for three more first-graders -- Charlotte Bacon, Caroline Previdi and Daniel Barden – continuing a week of mourning.
A large contingent of firefighters arrived for 7-year-old Daniel’s funeral at St. Rome of Lima church in Newtown, where the strains of bagpipes filled the air.
Two of his relatives are members of the New York City Fire Department, and he dreamed of wearing the FDNY uniform when he grew up, according to a Facebook post from a firefighters’ foundation.
Family friend Laura Stamberg, of New Paltz, N.Y., said that on the day of the shooting, Daniel’s father Mark spent precious moments with him, teaching him a Christmas song on the piano.
"They played foosball and then he taught him the song and then he walked him to the bus and that was their last morning together," Stamberg told the Associated Press.
Later on Wednesday, hundreds of Newtown residents attended a wake for Sandy Hook Principal Dawn Hochsprung, 47, who has been hailed as a hero for running toward the sound of gunfire after Lanza blasted his way into the school.

Connecticut Gov. Dannel Malloy and Lt. Gov. Nancy Wyman came to pay their respects at Munson Lovetere Funeral Home, where candles in paper bags, arranged to spell HOPE, were laid out on the front lawn.
At a memorial last week, President Obama held the principal’s granddaughter, just a baby. “My mom would be so proud,” her daughter tweeted. “But not as proud as I am of her.”


Many of the services have been marked not just by tears, but by calls for tougher gun laws from those in attendance.
Miguel Padilla, who works with Soto’s father, said he hoped the unity shown in the wake of the tragedy would translate into legislative action.
“With assault rifles, there is no need for those,” he said outside the church. “If you need to protect yourself, a handgun is good enough. That a 20-year old can get his hands on [an assault rifle] is pathetic.



“Something big has to come out of this,” he added. “They have to change the law.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/19/16001132-light-amidst-the-darkness-heroic-teacher-victoria-soto-remembered?lite

mariab
December 19th, 2012, 04:43 PM
Am trying to find article with pics of all 26 victims. Will post when I do.

Family: Newtown boy's favorite teacher died cradling him in her arms

By Andrew Mach, NBC News
As families struggle to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives in the wake of the mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., some are clinging to bits of solace from the grim details that emerge.


The family of six-year-old Dylan Hockley, one of the 20 children killed in the shootings last Friday, revealed in a statement Monday that their child's favorite teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary cradled him as they both died in a hail of bullets.
"We take great comfort in knowing that Dylan was not alone when he died but was wrapped in the arms of his amazing aide, Anne Marie Murphy," Dylan’s family said in a statement. "Dylan loved Mrs. Murphy so much and pointed at her picture on our refrigerator every day."



Murphy, 52, a mother to four children with her husband, Michael, was a special education teacher in Dylan’s classroom at Sandy Hook. She was a 14-year resident of Sandy Hook and formerly of Katonah, N.Y., according to her obituary.
"She will be remembered for her love of the arts, walks in the outdoors and most importantly: her family," her obituary said.
Authorities reportedly told Murphy's parents, Hugh and Alice McGowan, that their daughter helped shield some of her students from the rain of bullets.
“A first responder said she was a hero,” her 86-year-old father told Newsday. “You don’t expect your daughter to be murdered. That’s sort of a shocker.”
Murphy’s mother, also 86, said she grabbed her rosary and cried when she got the news.
Dylan’s parents, Ian Thomas, who is British, and Nicole Marie (Moretti), both 42, had lived in England for 18 years before moving to a house on the same street as Nancy Lanza, the gunman's mother and first victim, in January, The Telegraph (U.K.) reported (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9748825/Connecticut-school-massacre-British-family-mourn-loss-of-Dylan-Hockley.html). They said they chose Newtown specifically for the tight-knit community and the Sandy Hook school.
“We do not and shall never regret this choice,” they said. “Our boys have flourished here and our family’s happiness has been limitless.”

The family also praised other staffers and teachers who died at Sandy Hook.
"We cannot speak highly enough of Dawn Hochsprung and Mary Sherlach, exceptional women who knew both our children and who specifically helped us navigate Dylan's special education needs," Dylan's family added. "Dylan's teacher, Vicki Soto, was warm and funny and Dylan loved her dearly."
Both Hochsprung, 47, the school principal, and Sherlach, 56, the school psychologist, died while lunging at the gunman, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, in an attempt to overpower him. Soto, 27, a first-grade teacher, shielded her students and ushered them into a closet, putting herself between them and the gunman. She was found huddled with the children.
"Though our hearts break for Dylan, they are also filled with love for these and other beautiful women who all selflessly died trying to save our children," the family said.
In the statement, the Hockley family said Dylan loved to cuddle, bounce on his trampoline and play computer games. He also looked up to his older brother, Jake. He was learning to read and "was so proud when he read us a new book every day."
"We will always be a family of four," they said. "He is forever in our hearts and minds."

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/18/15994142-family-newtown-boys-favorite-teacher-died-cradling-him-in-her-arms?lite

eddhead
December 19th, 2012, 05:33 PM
It seems like there is no end to the sad stories. I honestly don't know how much more of this I can read.


Both Hochsprung, 47, the school principal, and Sherlach, 56, the school psychologist, died while lunging at the gunman, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, in an attempt to overpower him. Soto, 27, a first-grade teacher, shielded her students and ushered them into a closet, putting herself between them and the gunman. She was found huddled with the children.


In remembering the 20 innocent first-graders who were so tragically gunned down, we should not forget the brave teachers who were there for them, 6 of whom also died.

I just don't know how Sandy Hook gets past this.

BBMW
December 20th, 2012, 12:51 PM
^
Not to minimize this (because I'm not), but on 9/11 we had 2,600+ people killed, and a decent sized chunk of NY taken out, and we went on. People do get past these things.

Ninjahedge
December 20th, 2012, 01:23 PM
Um, that was kinda uncool.

I understand the point, but... this feels too local. When a neighbor comes in and shoots your kid... it is still a death, but it somehow feels more... lethal.

9-11 was an attack. An act of war from a radical faction. An enemy that was easily demonized and separated. Having a quiet kid from your neighborhood kill his mother, take her guns and then go on a shooting spree NOT in a mall or even a movie theater (bad enough) but an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL has the dubious honor of being one of the worst crimes I have ever heard of.

ZippyTheChimp
December 20th, 2012, 01:45 PM
If you want to look at it just by cold hard numbers: The percentage of the population of NYC that lost their lives was about .030%. In Newtown, it's .097%, three times the rate.

I'm not sure how to define a decent sized chunk of New York, but economically, the city recovered quickly. There are other factors since that have impacted the city much more.

But beyond numbers, small towns like Newtown are much different from a megalopolis like New York City. The city has lots more happening, and most people who don't have some contact with it hardly think about the WTC. I'll sometimes meet friends from uptown or the outer boroughs, and they'll ask me how are things at the WTC; they sometimes sound like visitors from another state.

Newtown is long going to be identified with this tragedy, and not much else. If someone says they're visiting friends in Columbine, what pops into your head.

And the other thing, of course, is that it's mostly about children. To fully understand the effects of what happened in Newtown, you have to watch all of this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfaYUrgcCrY&amp;feature=player_embedded

eddhead
December 20th, 2012, 01:48 PM
^
Not to minimize this (because I'm not), but on 9/11 we had 2,600+ people killed, and a decent sized chunk of NY taken out, and we went on. People do get past these things.

I would remind you that it took many of us a long time to get over 9/11 too. In fact, I know some people who are still working on it.

And just as you are not minimizing Sandy Hook (and I know you are not), I am certainly not minimizing 9/11. Still, this is different for several reasons. To begin with, as NH indicated, this is local. As a result, I agree with all of his observations about this being more personal.

Unlike 9/11 where most of the victims commuted to work, and where no single community singularly bore the weight of that horrible tragedy, the victims of Sandy Hook all lived in the same town (the town where the shooting took place), and interacted with each other daily. And the community itself is a small place where everyone knows everyone else, making the impact seem more personal to a greater percentage of town residents. In other words, everyone at Sandy Hook knows at LEAST one person or family who was impacted by the shooting. In most cases they know several, and they know them well. And because the town is so small and tightly-knit, it is likely that they will have to face the bereaved familes everyday, and will for as long as they live there.


As bad as 9/11 was, it happened in a place where most (not all) people work,and most of the victims (again not all) were non-residents, and it was perpetrated by strangers. When something like this happens to you in your home, which is a sanctuary of sorts, to your neighbors, by your neighbor, you lose all sense of safety.

And the fact that the victims were 6 and 7 year olds, along with a few brave adults who tried desperately to protect them makes this all the more heart-wrenching.

BBMW
December 20th, 2012, 05:31 PM
^
I think it might be easier do deal with something like this in a smaller tight knit community (in a relative sense. Nothing about dealing with this will be easy.) Shared hardship has a way of bringing people together.

eddhead
December 20th, 2012, 07:43 PM
The bereaved families of the 9/11 victims likely had support systems too,within their local communities. But those individual communities themselves were not emersed because the entirety of the impact was shared with other communities

In addition to the other issues outlined in my post, in this case the problem is to much an embedded part of the communities identity. To Zippy's point, there is just no way to escape from it without moving.

ZippyTheChimp
December 20th, 2012, 08:32 PM
Both 09/11 and the Newtown school murders are national tragedies; but in the case of 09/11, the incident was addressed, measures were put into place to prevent a re-occurrence. Some would say we've gone too far, but at least it got priority.

And it's not just that the scale is different. In the early 1980s, seven people died in Chicago when Tylenol capsules were replaced with cyanide and returned to store shelves.


Johnson & Johnson distributed warnings to hospitals and distributors and halted Tylenol production and advertising. On October 5, 1982, it issued a nationwide recall of Tylenol products; an estimated 31 million bottles were in circulation, with a retail value of over US$100 million. The company also advertised in the national media for individuals not to consume any products that contained acetaminophen. When it was determined that only capsules were tampered with, they offered to exchange all Tylenol capsules already purchased by the public with solid tablets.
The plastic wrap and other tamper-proof devices that you see on drug products today are all the result of those seven deaths.

Yet nothing has ever been done in the wake of these mass killings; if anything, it's become easier to get your hands on combat weapons. So unlike 09/11, Sandy Hook School has become a national disgrace, and I think a lot more people other than the "gun-control crowd" understand that.

ZippyTheChimp
December 21st, 2012, 11:16 AM
I'm watching that asshole head of the NRA Lapierre right now.

He's talking about things that are the domain of Law Enforcement.

He's talking about things that are the domain of the Courts.

He's talking about things that are the domain of Educators.

He's talking about things that are the domain of Sociologists and Psychiatrists.

So far, he's said nothing about the one thing about the domain of his organization - firearms.

He's not coming across very well; this is already a PR disaster.

ZippyTheChimp
December 21st, 2012, 11:35 AM
A press conference without questions from the press.

What a farce.

Ninjahedge
December 21st, 2012, 12:10 PM
The "Press" should call it what it was. A Press release/appearance. A lecture, not a conference.

He has got nothing, and should have focused (oxymoronically) on as many generic amorphous policy changes as he could that can easily be influenced and molded later rather than putting the blame on everything else and walking away.

ZippyTheChimp
December 21st, 2012, 12:41 PM
LaPierre blamed the corporate owners of the media, the corporate owners of the film industry, the corporate owners of the video game industry.

Not one mention of the corporate owners of the weapon and ammunition industry.

Ninjahedge
December 21st, 2012, 12:48 PM
Damn Corporate Owners.

GordonGecko
December 21st, 2012, 03:04 PM
the xbox did it

ZippyTheChimp
December 21st, 2012, 03:48 PM
Half-cocked.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1225122.1356110739!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/lapierre22e-1-web.jpg

stache
December 21st, 2012, 04:09 PM
I hate when that happens!

eddhead
December 21st, 2012, 04:35 PM
What a horse's ass.

eddhead
December 21st, 2012, 06:14 PM
Armed guards in schools?? Really?/

What a complete douche.

================================================== ================================================== ===

December 21, 2012

N.R.A. Calls for Armed Guards in Schools, but No Gun CurbsBy ERIC LICHTBLAU (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/eric_lichtblau/index.html) and JOHN H. CUSHMAN Jr. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/john_h_jr_cushman/index.html)WASHINGTON — After a weeklong silence since the Connecticut school shootings, the National Rifle Association on Friday called for a program to arm and train guards in schools as the best way to protect children from gun violence. The group blamed video games, the news media and lax law enforcement – but not guns – for a recent rash of mass shootings.

It offered no new proposals to restrict firearms.

“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” said Wayne LaPierre, the N.R.A.'s vice president, at a packed media event was interrupted twice by protesters demanding tougher gun controls.

Angry and combative, Mr. LaPierre, who has led the N.R.A.'s operations for two decades, complained that the news media had unfairly “demonized gun owners,” and he called the makers of violent video games “a callous, corrupt and corrupting shadow industry that sells, and sows, violence against its own people.”

Shock over the Connecticut shootings has spurred wide calls for tighter gun control measures, with even some pro-gun lawmakers aligned with the N.R.A. saying that they were rethinking their positions. With the N.R.A. unusually quiet since the shootings, gun control supporters and opponents had looked to Friday’s event as a sign of how the nation’s largest and best-known gun lobby would respond and whether it would pledge cooperation with the White House and lawmakers seeking new actions.

Mr. LaPierre’s defiant tone suggested otherwise. He and David Keene, the group’s president, took no questions from reporters at the event who called out asking whether they planned to work with President Obama.

The N.R.A.'s main answer to school violence was a model program it unveiled called National School Shield, which would train and arm security guards at schools in those local districts that want to use it.

The group said it would pay for a task force to develop details for the model, and named Asa Hutchinson, a former Arkansas congressman and a strong supporter of the N.R.A., to lead it.

“Assurance of school safety must be restored with a sense of urgency,” Mr. Hutchinson said. The gun group called for schools to arm their security officers immediately.

The idea is not a completely new one. The federal government and local districts have developed programs meant to bolster security at schools — with varying models and mixed results — and the N.R.A. itself has developed safety programs for children and schools in the past and suggested armed guards.

This time, Mr. LaPierre said the N.R.A. would dedicate its resources and expertise to developing the new safety program he announced Friday. He did not say how much money it planned to spend on the effort.

He said that armed security guards at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., on Dec. 14 might have stopped the gunman, Adam Lanza, at the outset of his rampage. “Will you at least admit,” Mr. LaPierre said, appealing directly to members of the news media who he said had been unduly skeptical of the N.R.A., “that 26 innocent lives might have been spared that day?”

He added, “The only way — the only way — to stop a monster from killing our kids is to be personally involved and invested in a plan of absolute protection.”

“Why is the idea of a gun good when it’s used to protect the president of our country or our police but bad when it’s used to protect our children in our schools?” he askedN.R.A. Calls for Armed Guards in Schools, but No Gun Curbs

Gun-free school zones identified by signs, he said, serve only to “tell every insane killer in America that schools are the safest place to effect maximum mayhem with minimum risk.”

Advocates for gun control were unimpressed by the N.R.A.'s announcement, with some critics calling it paranoid and out of step with much of the country.

“Anyone who thought the N.R.A. was going to come out today and make a common-sense statement about meaningful reform and safety was kidding themselves,” said Representative Mike Quigley, an Illinois Democrat who has supported a ban on assault rifles and high-capacity ammunition, among other measures.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York, who has led calls for tougher gun laws, and helped to pay for them, called the N.R.A.'s response “a shameful evasion of the crisis facing our country.”

The event Friday, billed as a news conference, was odd both in tone and substance. Rather than offer the type of hedged or carefully calibrated comments that politicians and lobbyists often prefer, Mr. LaPierre let loose with a scorching attack on the N.R.A.'s accusers.

He blasted what he called “the political class here in Washington” for pursuing new gun control measures while failing, in his view, to adequately prosecute violations of existing gun laws, pay for law enforcement programs or develop a national registry of mentally ill people who might prove to be “the next Adam Lanza.”

He said ominously that the next mass school shooter was probably already plotting an attack. The only question, he said, is how many more shooters there will be. “A dozen more killers? A hundred more?” Mr. LaPierre said. “How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation’s refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?”

Even while the N.R.A. was offering to help schools better protect themselves, it proved unable to guard its own media event from protesters.
Reporters had to show media credentials to get in. But two protesters from the group Code Pink sneaked inside, getting seats in the first two rows, and, minutes apart, stood up with large banners in front of Mr. LaPierre and shouted denunciations.

“Violence begins with the N.R.A.!” yelled Tighe Barry, a protester from Santa Monica, Calif., as he was forced out of the room by security guards.

Mr. Barry would not say afterward how he managed to get into the tightly guarded event. “There’s doors – there’s ways to get in,” he said, smiling.

mariab
December 21st, 2012, 08:46 PM
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Charlotte Bacon (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

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Daniel Barden (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

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Rachel D'Avino (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

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Olivia Engel (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

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Josephine Gay (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-hockley.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Dylan Hockley (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-hochsprung.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-hsu.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Madeleine F. Hsu (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-hubbard.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Catherine V. Hubbard (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-kowalski.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Chase Kowalski (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-lanza.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Nancy Lanza (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-lewis.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Jesse Lewis (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-marquez.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Ana Marquez-Greene (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-mattioli.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
James Mattioli (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-mcdonnell.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Grace McDonnell (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-murphy.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Anne Marie Murphy (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-parker.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Emilie Parker (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-pinto.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Jack Pinto (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-pozner.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Noah Pozner (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-previdi.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Caroline Previdi (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-rekos.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Jessica Rekos (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-richman.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Avielle Richman (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-rousseau.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Lauren Rousseau (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-sherlach.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Mary Sherlach (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-soto.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Victoria Soto (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-wheeler.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Benjamin Wheeler (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/media/tz-wyatt.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)
Allison N. Wyatt (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)



http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-victims/index.html

ZippyTheChimp
December 21st, 2012, 11:58 PM
Armed guards in schools?? Really?

What a complete douche.Stand Your Ground coming to a school near you.

A very small percentage of child firearm fatalities happen in schools. In the US, a cumulative Sandy Hook happens every two weeks; it's spread out so not many take notice.

Will Chuck E Cheese get armed guards. And playgrounds.

We'll need a lot of armed guards. Who's going to pay for them? Who'll pay for their training?

At least we should have a big pool of job applicants.

How about this guy? He's good to go, already experienced.

http://voxxi.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/George-Zimmerman-copy1-298x300.jpg

Nexis4Jersey
December 22nd, 2012, 12:33 AM
These people truly disgust me....I really don't know what to say....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/20/asheville-tea-party-gun-raffle_n_2339296.html

Ninjahedge
December 26th, 2012, 11:20 AM
I would like to talk to him.

He says that the signs are advertisements for killers to find an easy kill.... but if you have a gunman that is more than a simple psycho it does not take long for them to find out who has a gun at a facility and how to either avoid them or eliminate it.

In addition, how many guys do you need? You have one to do an entire school and all he has to be is on the other side of the building before it takes him 90 seconds to RUN and get there. Now, if he is worth his salt, then he will not run right into the fire, so even if he gets there, he has to be careful, therefore not an instant abatement to the situation.

So now we have 2 on active duty. For EVERY SCHOOL. And even then, it does not instantly stop an invader.

Calling for armed guards at every possible risk zone is unrealistic. It is like making every building blast proof at the request of the Commercial Dynamite and Fertilizer association.

What needs to be done is to hold the NRA and all associated organizations responsible to their own credo and force them to abandon the vagueries they impose on it to allow carte blanche when it comes to weapons that have no solid basis in "survival", "Militia" or the 2nd Amendment.

If thy want to keep up with that, there is another card that can be pulled:


"Why do I not have the right to a semi-auto with extended clips?"

"Because God(tm) said it is wrong to kill babies."

eddhead
December 26th, 2012, 11:52 AM
Everytime I have visited this thread over the past few days, I look at the pictures of those babies. Somehow, 'heartbreaking' doesn't quite cut it.

mariab
December 27th, 2012, 04:54 PM
School Shooter's DNA to Be Studied

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tfXuOGOB82RMR5spD1eOQw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9MjM-/http://l.yimg.com/os/590/2011/10/20/RR-logo_003910.png (http://abcnews.go.com/)By SHUSHANNAH WALSHE | ABC News – 23 hours ago


Geneticists have been asked to study the DNA of Adam Lanza, (http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-school-district-locked-down-shooting-report-151955384--abc-news-topstories.html) the Connecticut man whose shooting rampage killed 27 people, including an entire first grade class.The study, which experts believe may be the first of its kind, is expected to be looking for abnormalities or mutations in Lanza's DNA.
Connecticut Medical Examiner H. Wayne Carver has reached out to University of Connecticut's geneticists to conduct the study.
University of Connecticut spokesperson Tom Green says Carver "has asked for help from our department of genetics" and they are "willing to give any assistance they can."
Green said he could not provide details on the project, but said it has not begun and they are "standing by waiting to assist in any way we can."

Lanza, 20, carried out the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., just days before Christmas. His motives for the slaughter remain a mystery.
Geneticists not directly involved in the study said they are likely looking at Lanza's DNA to detect a mutation or abnormality that could increase the risk of aggressive or violent behavior. They could analyze Lanza's entire genome in great detail and try to find unexpected mutations.
This seems to be the first time a study of this nature has been conducted, but it raises concerns in some geneticists and others in the field that there could be a stigma attached to people with these genetic characteristics if they are able to be narrowed down.
Arthur Beaudet, a professor at Baylor College of Medicine, said the University of Connecticut geneticists are most likely trying to "detect clear abnormalities of what we would call a mutation in a gene…or gene abnormalities and there are some abnormalities that are related to aggressive behavior."
"They might look for mutations that might be associated with mental illnesses and ones that might also increase the risk for violence," said Beaudet, who is also the chairman of Baylor College of Medicine's department of molecular and human genetics.

Beaudet believes geneticists should be doing this type of research because there are "some mutations that are known to be associated with at least aggressive behavior if not violent behavior."
"I don't think any one of these mutations would explain all of (the mass shooters), but some of them would have mutations that might be causing both schizophrenia and related schizophrenia violent behavior," Beaudet said. "I think we could learn more about it and we should learn more about it."
Beaudet noted that studying the genes of murderers is controversial because there is a risk that those with similar genetic characteristics could possibly be discriminated against or stigmatized, but he still thinks the research would be helpful even if only a "fraction" may have the abnormality or mutation.
"Not all of these people will have identifiable genetic abnormalities," Beaudet said, adding that even if a genetic abnormality is found it may not be related to a "specific risk."
"By studying genetic abnormalities we can learn more about conditions better and who is at risk and what might be dramatic treatments," Beaudet said, adding if the gene abnormality is defined the "treatment to stop" other mass shootings or "decrease the risk is much approved."

Others in the field aren't so sure.
Dr. Harold Bursztajn, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, is a leader in his field on this issue writing extensively on genetic discrimination. He questions what the University of Connecticut researchers could "even be looking for at this point."
"Given how wide the net would have to be cast and given the problem of false positives in testing it is much more likely we would go ahead and find some misleading genetic markers, which would later be proven false while unnecessarily stigmatizing a very large group of people," Bursztajn said.
Bursztajn also cautions there are other risks to this kind of study: that other warning signs could be ignored.
"It's too risky from the stand point of unduly stigmatizing people, but also from distracting us from real red flags to prevent violence from occurring," Bursztajn said. "The last thing we need when people are in the midst of grief is offering people quick fixes which may help our anxiety, but can be counterproductive to our long term safety and ethics."

Bursztajn is also the president of the American Unit of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) Bioethics Chair and in that role he teaches health care professionals about responsible genetic education including the history of eugenics in this country in the 1920s and Nazi Germany. He cautions against the slippery slope that the kind of research that could be involved in the University of Connecticut's study could lead to.
Dr. Heidi Tissenbaum, a geneticist at the University of Massachusetts medical school, agrees the research is risky saying an accurate study just cannot be completed on one person.
"The problem is there might be a genetic component, but we don't have enough of a sample size," Tissenbaum said. "I think it's much more than a simple genetic answer, but an interplay between genetics and environment."
"One sample, what's that going to tell you," Tissenbaum said, referring to Lanza's DNA. "You never do an experiment with one, you can't conclude anything… The question is what are they comparing his DNA against? Are they going to control to random people? Matching for age or society? We just don't have enough (of a sample)."
Tissenbaum says the rush to study his DNA may simply be because "people are hurting so much they would like to find a quick answer."
"Even identical twins are different and they have identical DNA," Tissenbaum noted.

http://gma.yahoo.com/school-shooters-dna-studied-214930321--abc-news-topstories.html

Merry
December 28th, 2012, 05:31 AM
Oh. My. God.

Dangerous knee-jerk reaction.

Where did this originate? With the Medical Examiner himself, or somewhere else? Permission from Lanza's remaining family (if any)?

Human beings have proved many times over that they can't be trusted to do the right thing with this kind of stuff.

What could this eventually lead to? Mandatory DNA tests on unborn babies and extermination if their DNA marks them as a would-be mass murderer, or whatever (the possibilities are endless)?

Well, there's an idea for a new all-the-rage utopian...err...dystopian bestseller.

IrishInNYC
December 28th, 2012, 09:03 AM
I don't honestly understand your melodramatic reaction Merry. I feel you're taking it a few years, a few laws and some movie-script logic too far. This country and world still does not understand what separates Lanza et al from the average person in the street. Human curiosity and self-preservation drives us to try and find out. I can only hope that any "permission" is not required, that by murdering 26 people, Lanza presented his body and DNA for medical study by default.

To jump to the testing of unborn babies is a bit silly to contemplate. Is there even anything to find?

Let's assume there is. An identifiable genetic marker can be located that indicates a prevalence for random, catastrophic violence. Perhaps it could be best used within the mental health field...people, like Lanza, who have displayed mental illness could be tested for this marker (as part of the myriad other testing they already undergo). Proper treatment and monitoring could be better implemented if such a marker were found.

Ninjahedge
December 28th, 2012, 09:37 AM
Why do you need a DNA marker when the societal markers were there for a good 10 years.

What we want is a magic flag that will tell us what to do with the least effort possible. We see the solutions that are needed and ignore them until the problem becomes too big to ignore.

eddhead
December 28th, 2012, 09:37 AM
I think Merry is suggesting is that while theDNA analysis may be planned with the best of intentions, there is at least a possibility of this being a slippery slope if we are not careful. Even if we take it as a given that our cultural values preclude the liklihood of using this emerging technology in more nefarious ways, (and it is at least a concern that over time our values will change), we have to remember that there are countries and cultures that don't share our values. For instance, it would disturb me to know this practice was widely available and practiced by some crack-pot dictactor bent on genocide or genetic engineering.

I don't 100% agree with Merry's concerns, but I get it.

stache
December 28th, 2012, 10:43 AM
I think the larger issue is that the killer's mother had ample resources to look into her son's odd behavior, yet she chose to ignore it and focus on her gun obsession.

IrishInNYC
December 28th, 2012, 10:47 AM
Dolly the sheep heralded the same concerns over 15 years ago and the world has not been overrun by a genetically created master race. Nor has pretesting fetuses for many known, terminal and life-altering conditions swept in a rash of forced abortions in countries run by "crack-pot" leadership. Typically, such countries are more interested in old fashioned bombs and war than the highly scientific screening of its population.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the concerns also but we have bigger fish to fry. If a few well meaning scientists would like to try and crack the code of a psycho's DNA then let them do so....they have years of tough work ahead of them.

Forget odd behavior and societal markers...think of this on a purely scientific level; for that is what the article is about.

eddhead
December 28th, 2012, 10:56 AM
Don't get me wrong, I understand the concerns also but we have bigger fish to fry. If a few well meaning scientists would like to try and crack the code of a psycho's DNA then let them do so....they have years of tough work ahead of them.



When it is all said and done, I am not confident that I know which will prove to be the bigger fish. Still, I am not one to argue against the advancements of science and knowledge for fear of missuse.


I think the larger issue is that the killer's mother had ample resources to look into her son's odd behavior, yet she chose to ignore it and focus on her gun obsession.

In fairness to the mother, I think she may have understandably attributed at least some of her son's 'odd behavior' to asbergers. As far as I know, there was no history of violence, but if there was I cannot fatom her owning even one hand gun, much less a battery of semi-automatic weapons.

Ninjahedge
December 28th, 2012, 11:07 AM
stache, she did not have an obsession, but I agree with her ignoring er son (or procrastinating).

I think she liked the fact that men liked her when she was at the shooting range, and the gun also gave a feeling of strength and power. She was a divorced single mother that was trying to retain a feeling of worth, I would not tack it all on one object or another.

What I would focus on is more her lack of attention that probably exacerbated the situation with her son, made her blind to what he was capable of. Then the overall ease of using someone else's gun. Even easier than stealing a car. The issue needs to be dissected and controls need to be implemented that allow "law abiding users" the "freedom" to own a piece that, for 99% of the population, is pure recreation/hubris/phallic augmentation. The 1% that need it for their survival (the popular "hunting" validation) should be accommodated...but blind acquiescence to all that claim this as a life right is not.....right.

The belief that firearms are, by and large, detrimental to any modern society may be 100% correct, but jumping on that bandwagon may stop this movement in its tracks (no matter how strong the martyr's that are pulling it). We need to, at the very least, make it harder for these things to happen without blaming everything but the "tool" used to do it.

Ninjahedge
December 28th, 2012, 11:09 AM
Dolly the sheep heralded the same concerns over 15 years ago and the world has not been overrun by a genetically created master race. Nor has pretesting fetuses for many known, terminal and life-altering conditions swept in a rash of forced abortions in countries run by "crack-pot" leadership. Typically, such countries are more interested in old fashioned bombs and war than the highly scientific screening of its population.

Side topic: It is not fiscally feasible yet. Nor has there been an emotional impetus strong enough to actuate it. I am not saying you are wrong in this, just that it is still a cloud of "what if" doom that hangs above us, blown by the winds of ignorance.



btw:

http://img.timeinc.net/time/images/covers/pacific/2012/20121224_600.jpg

IrishInNYC
December 28th, 2012, 12:16 PM
[QUOTE=Ninjahedge;421372] that it is still a cloud of "what if" doom that hangs above us, blown by the winds of ignorance.QUOTE]

There are a lot of those clouds these days. Sadly.

Ninjahedge
December 28th, 2012, 12:23 PM
Don't call me Shirley.

stache
December 28th, 2012, 01:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA

eddhead
December 28th, 2012, 02:06 PM
stache, she did not have an obsession, but I agree with her ignoring er son (or procrastinating).

I think she liked the fact that men liked her when she was at the shooting range, and the gun also gave a feeling of strength and power. She was a divorced single mother that was trying to retain a feeling of worth, I would not tack it all on one object or another.

What I would focus on is more her lack of attention that probably exacerbated the situation with her son, made her blind to what he was capable of. Then the overall ease of using someone else's gun. Even easier than stealing a car. The issue needs to be dissected and controls need to be implemented that allow "law abiding users" the "freedom" to own a piece that, for 99% of the population, is pure recreation/hubris/phallic augmentation. The 1% that need it for their survival (the popular "hunting" validation) should be accommodated...but blind acquiescence to all that claim this as a life right is not.....right.

I have no idea where this is coming from; at the very least it seems to be a stretch.

First, we have no idea whatsoever as to why she was drawn to guns. To suggest that we know it made her feel powerful, or attractive to men or that as a divorced woman she was susceptible to identity issues and poor self esteem and that the weapons were a crutch ... I am just not aware of any evidence to that effect.

Secondly, friends and acquaintances of the family have indicated she was an attentive mother who devoted almost all of her time to home schooling and raising her son mostly to address social issues resulting from his disorder. The people I saw interviewed suggested that she approached his upbringing as a full-time job. Maybe that is not true, but I have not heard evidence to the contrary.

Ninjahedge
December 28th, 2012, 03:18 PM
Edd, it was her social outlet.

She went to the range and was known by others. That may be a bit of spin by the news networks, but similar to any repeated outing if you are NOT social, but a regular at some place or some thing, there is something essentially wrong with you....

I am not saying that it was a crutch, but denying that it could have felt like a good social connection/outlet? Are you saying that if she was an attractive woman at a shooting range that she would NOT like the attention she got? The respect for being a decent shot maybe INSTEAD of just attractive? My observation was a speculation, not a condemnation......

As for "approach(ing) his upbringing like a full time job", that is also subject to debate, as no matter how much TIME you spend with someone, it does not guarantee that you will see everything, or do the right thing once you see it. I am not blaming her for the entire situation, but every reaction happens quicker with the right catalysts.

We could also play "what-if" with a lot of this.

-What if she brought him in for psychological help (did she?) sooner?
-What if he was LEFT in school/special ed instead of being isolated?
-What if she did not own any guns?

All of these could have changed things a little or a lot depending on what was the root of his action.

I guess I was off a bit when I said "lack of attention". Maybe a better description would be "misplaced attention"? Antibiotics for the common cold?

Merry
December 28th, 2012, 08:22 PM
I don't honestly understand your melodramatic reaction Merry.

Please keep your melodramatic and silly labels to yourself. Read my last sentence.


I think Merry is suggesting is that while theDNA analysis may be planned with the best of intentions, there is at least a possibility of this being a slippery slope if we are not careful. Even if we take it as a given that our cultural values preclude the liklihood of using this emerging technology in more nefarious ways, (and it is at least a concern that over time our values will change), we have to remember that there are countries and cultures that don't share our values. For instance, it would disturb me to know this practice was widely available and practiced by some crack-pot dictactor bent on genocide or genetic engineering.

I don't 100% agree with Merry's concerns, but I get it.

You said it better than me, eddhead, thank you.

IrishInNYC
December 28th, 2012, 09:17 PM
Please keep your melodramatic and silly labels to yourself. Read my last sentence.

Not sure I follow you Merry. I was not trying to offend. Am I to understand you were pitching a fictitious book idea or that the preceding sentiments in your original post are actually how you feel about the article?

When I read "Oh. My. God." as the start to a post, forgive me if that strikes me as melodramatic and when I read the supposition that unborn children may be exterminated based on a DNA test....forgive me further if I think that is silly.

Book pitch or not.

Merry
December 28th, 2012, 09:32 PM
Forgive me if that sounds like manipulative insincerity and that you still don't get the point. The imagination of some human beings knows no boundaries.

Merry
December 28th, 2012, 10:02 PM
After Newtown, Arming Parents and Schools Against Violence

by Richard Buery

It has been a harrowing time for our country after the devastating tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut. We saw the worst and best of us as news came in about the senseless violence of the shooter and the heroism of the teachers and administrators who risked and gave their lives to save the children of Sandy Hook Elementary School.

Let us honor these precious lost lives, and so many others, by having a critically important conversation about guns and violence in our communities, our nation's inadequate mental health system and our responsibility to protect the most vulnerable and precious among us -- our children. And this time, we must move from conversation to action.

Just as the names of the victims at Sandy Hook Elementary are emblazoned on our hearts and minds, so too are the names of young people who die every day on street corners in neighborhoods across the country. In New York City, gun violence has decreased in general over the last several years, but far too many children and youth continue to die as the result of gun violence. Like many who work with children and families in high-poverty communities across the country, my colleagues at The Children's Aid Society (http://www.childrensaidsociety.org/) have too much experience seeing young people with incredible promise killed by guns. In the last five years alone, 10 young people in our care were murdered and many more have had a friend or family member killed by guns.

Now more than ever, it is clear that we need to re-institute stricter controls on the availability of guns. Policymakers can and will debate the details of those controls. But as Newark Mayor Cory Booker recently wrote in his reasoned, pragmatic call to action (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cory-booker/gun-law-reform_b_2346911.html), "many reforms have significant support from the public, and even from gun owners ... The only reason these wouldn't happen is because of backroom dealing and lobby opposition, and we simply cannot allow that given what is at stake." The bloodshed in Connecticut is a wake-up call to Congress to take action on common sense measures.

Such measures could have prevented one young man from dying needlessly. Shytik Bowman (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/nyregion/after-a-sons-death-a-family-struggles-to-move-on.html?ref=nyregion) grew up in a community where guns and violence are commonplace. Shytik got into trouble as a young teen, and when he brought a gun into his high school, he received a 10-month sentence at a juvenile facility. Upon his release, Shytik participated in LINC (http://www.childrensaidsociety.org/juvenile-justice/linc-youth-justice-program), a program we run to help juveniles returning from detention facilities re-enter society. At LINC, he established a transformational relationship with an adult life coach whose job it is to help guide young people like Shytik along a more constructive path. Despite continuing to be surrounded by negative influences, including exposure to regular gun violence, Shytik became an active participant in the LINC program, participating in weekly support group sessions and attending job training classes. He was turning his life around.

Shytik was fatally shot last summer by someone who was trying to rob him, leaving behind devastated family and friends and breaking the hearts of those who worked with Shytik and loved him.

Young people like Shytik in the high-poverty neighborhoods we serve die senselessly as a result of gun violence every day. I am not naïve enough to think that restricting access to guns is a panacea for this American crisis. Without access to excellent schools, high-quality health care and jobs that pay a living wage, young people growing up in poverty, their families and their communities will continue to face traumatic violence. But it is also true that sensible gun control can limit access to deadly weapons of mass destruction. Gun control will not end violence in our communities, but it is a sensible strategy to reduce it.

The tragedy in Newtown has also reignited a conversation about the need for better access to mental health services both in school and community settings, and here too we need to move from talk to action. One in 10 youth (http://nccp.org/publications/pub_687.html) has a serious mental health problem that impairs how he functions at school, home and community. But 75 percent to 80 percent of children in need of mental health services do not receive them. While in the past 10 to 15 years there have been great developments in the understanding and treatment of mental health issues in children, the communities that need these supports the most have not benefited from them.

We need to move forward on two fronts simultaneously. One, we need to change the conditions of children growing up in poverty so that their exposure to trauma-inducing situations diminishes greatly -- what could have prevented Shytik and so many others like him from getting involved in self-destructive behavior in the first place. This is why we must focus on long-term strategies to create real opportunities for children growing up in poverty. When children and families get support early to create nurturing environments at home, and when their schools provide them with a real path to the future, we see time and again that young people can overcome difficult circumstances and thrive as adults.

Two, if children do experience trauma, we must jump into action -- just as the country is rightfully doing for the Newtown community. If we don't, we know the devastating implications.

Children and youth who have experienced trauma have lower educational achievement and have greater involvement with the criminal justice system than other children. And it is worse for poor children who have less access to mental health services and often receive a poorer quality of mental health care. So instead of putting an armed guard in every school in America, let's ensure that there are enough social workers and guidance counselors in schools to help keep young people on the right path. Let's make sure that the children -- like Shytik -- who need a coach get one.

It is our collective responsibility to ensure that all children have every opportunity to live free from violence. Offering the hope of a better future by providing families with a path out of poverty is critical. Providing access to mental health supports in schools and communities is essential. And so is common sense gun control.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-buery/childhood-poverty-gun-control_b_2370888.html?utm_hp_ref=new-york

Ninjahedge
December 28th, 2012, 10:19 PM
Both of ya, hush.

No sense in starting a fire when there is no wood to burn.

Mis-communication =/= Sin.... I hope!

IrishInNYC
December 29th, 2012, 11:06 AM
Oh brother...I guess something is being lost in translation. Ireland, USA and now Australia, separated by a common language.

Moving on...

Merry
December 30th, 2012, 02:02 AM
The circus begins.

"Power to the People"? Not likely.


Attorney Wants To Sue CT For $100 Million On Behalf Of Newtown Shooting Survivor

By Ben Yakas

http://gothamist.com/attachments/byakas/122912lawsuit.jpg
Irving Pinsky (via Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/irving.pinsky/photos_stream))

A New Haven attorney is seeking permission to file a $100 million lawsuit (http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/newtown-sandy-hook-school-shooting/hc-newtown-request-to-sue-1229-2-20121228,0,3515178.story) against the state of Connecticut on behalf of one of the survivors of the Newtown school shooting. (http://gothamist.com/tags/newtownshooting) Lawyer Irving Pinsky has filed the claim on behalf of a 6-year-old survivor, identified as "Jill Doe," accusing the state of failing to protect students from "foreseeable harm." "She was in her classroom, and over the loudspeaker came the horrific confrontation between the fellow who shot everybody and other people," Pinsky said. "Her friends were killed. That's pretty traumatic."

Altogether, 20 children and six educators were all killed when 20-year-old Adam Lanza went on his shooting spree December 14th at the Sandy Hook Elementary School; all the children were ages 6 and 7 (the shooter's mother Nancy Lanza was also killed that day). Pinsky's claim says the state Board of Education, the state Department of Education and the education commissioner failed to take steps to protect the minor children from harm: "As a consequence, the claimant-minor child has sustained emotional and psychological trauma and injury, the nature and extent of which are yet to be determined."

Pinsky has to get approval (http://news.yahoo.com/claim-seeks-100-million-child-survivor-connecticut-school-003646074.html) from state Claims Commissioner J. Paul Vance Jr. before the lawsuit can go forward—the state enjoys "sovereign immunity" against most lawsuits unless permission to sue is granted. But Pinsky is adamant about the seriousness of his suit: "Usually a fellow like Adam Lanza would have been known as a potential problem to the police...We all know its going to happen again. Society has to take action." If granted, this will be the first Newtown shooting-related lawsuit.

http://gothamist.com/2012/12/29/attorney_wants_to_sue_ct_for_100_mi.php

IrishInNYC
December 30th, 2012, 02:06 PM
This one I can fully agree with you on Merry. Despicable and yet typical of the bottom feeding section of the legal establishment.

mariab
January 3rd, 2013, 04:41 PM
The way it looks, with them changing the name of the new (old) school to 'Sandy Hook Elementary', moving all the furnishings there to exactly the same positions they were at the original school, they might be demolishing the original one, which I think is a good idea. Either that or the school district can sell the building with stipulations.


Sandy Hook Elementary School students go back to class for first time since tragedy

Kids head to school in different building and town in "emotional" return




By Larry Mcshane (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=Larry Mcshane) , Chelsia Rose Marcius (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=Chelsia Rose Marcius) AND Matthew Lysiak (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=Matthew Lysiak) / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, January 3, 2013, 9:58 AM


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1232097.1357227302!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/newtown4n-2-web.jpg

SHANNON STAPLETON/Reuters

Kids from Sandy Hook Elementary ride the bus on the way to class Thursday morning.



Three weeks after their school became a slaughterhouse, students from Sandy Hook Elementary School returned to class Thursday — in a different building and town.
“In a way, it’s like any other first day of school,” said Andre Nikitchyuk, whose 8-year-old son survived the carnage in Newtown, Conn.
“You get your back pack and breakfast and get ready. In another way it’s different. What happened changed us all. It’s very emotional.”
CLICK HERE TO SIGN THE DAILY NEWS ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN (http://sparq.nydailynews.com/pages/4YSLXP/6g6h/Ban_all_assault_weapons_and_highcapacity_magazines _and_institute_comprehensive_gun_control?log=0)
Nikitchyuk’s son, nicknamed Bear, will join his classmates in a refurbished school building in the neighboring town of Monroe.
Their new school was flanked by armed law enforcement officers when classes resumed at 9:07 a.m. inside the former Chalk Hill Middle School
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1232119!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-sandyhook2-0103.jpgJessica Hill/AP

A police road block is at the entrance to the new Sandy Hook Elementary School on the first day of classes in Monroe, Conn.


“As a mom, I feel very weary,” said Satra Arokium, 37, mother of second-grader Cyrena. “It feels safe with the police presence. But then again, I thought the same of the other school.”
Both Nikitchyuk and Arokium said their kids were eager to get back to school after the tragedy and trauma of the mass murder.
“She’s excited for today,” said Arokium. “Kids want to go back to school, and she wants to see her friends and teachers.”
But the idea of normalcy is difficult to grasp for children who heard dozens of gunshots on Dec. 14 as a lone shooter killed 20 first-graders and six staffers.
That day, the students, some in tears, exited the school single-file as a horde of first responders descended on the building-turned-crime scene.
Cyrena “is still having her moments,” said Arokium. “Sometimes she will just start to cry. Normal is not a word that will ever be part of our vocabulary.”
Nikitchyuk said the children were handling the emotional day better than their parents.
“They were running around and playing like normal kids,” he said of a Wednesday open house at the school. “We need to begin living our lives again. Nothing will ever be normal perhaps, but we all must move forward and live.”
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1232117!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-sandyhook-0103.jpgTIMOTHY A. CLARY/AFP/Getty Images

A sign welcoming children from Sandy Hook Elementry school sits on the road on the way to school.


Despite the police presence and the national attention, Newtown School Superintendent Janet Robinson said the goal was to make the students feel at ease.
“We will go to our regular schedule,” she said. “We will be doing a normal day.”
To make the transition easier, the students arrived at the school to find their desks, backpacks and other personal items left behind during the post-shooting evacuation.
The new school is about seven miles away from Sandy Hook, and the children walked past numerous police officers to get inside.
“I think right now it has to be the safest school in America,” said Monroe police Lt. Keith White.
mlysiak@nydailynews.com
Click for video (http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?vcid=24134887&freewheel=90051&sitesection=nydailynews)


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/sandy-hook-elementary-school-students-return-class-time-tragedy-article-1.1232098#ixzz2GwzcI9mM

IrishInNYC
January 10th, 2013, 01:25 PM
School shooting in Taft, California this morning. 2 shot, shooter detained.

GordonGecko
January 10th, 2013, 02:25 PM
They say he had a shotgun. I imagine if had access to an assault riffle it would have been much, much worse.

mariab
January 10th, 2013, 03:16 PM
I'm just glad they got him alive.

Ninjahedge
January 10th, 2013, 03:38 PM
Well you know what this PROVES?!!?!

That extended clips and assault rifle semi-autos are much more effective at killing people!

I mean, one incident is definitive proof, right?





.............../me waits.

eddhead
January 10th, 2013, 03:49 PM
... you'll be waiting a long time.

mariab
January 10th, 2013, 04:11 PM
Remember how many people the DC sniper killed? Check out this latest bit of technology. Click on link for video.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/gadgetbox/futuristic-rifle-turns-novice-sharpshooter-1B7916613?ocid=msnhp&pos=1#/technology/gadgetbox/futuristic-rifle-turns-novice-sharpshooter-1B7916613

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/streams/2012/February/120214/29738-wilson-rothman-mugshot_2010_sm.streams_desktop_avatar.jpgWilson Rothman, NBC News
Futuristic rifle turns novice into sharpshooter (http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/gadgetbox/futuristic-rifle-turns-novice-sharpshooter-1B7916613)

'Smart' hunting rifle makes up for jittery aim

1/10/2013: Using state of the art digital range finders and a very smart trigger, the TrackingPoint rifle can make a sharpshooter out of anyone, including NBCNews.com's Wilson Rothman.
It all goes back to "Top Gun." In the heads-up display on Maverick's Tomcat, you can see a computer compensate for human aim with precision laser guidance and careful calculations. How long before that technology made its way to to a conventional hunting rifle? It's here now, with a price tag of $17,000 to $21,000.
We came to Las Vegas the first week of January, the way we always do, for the Consumer Electronics Show. The vast trade show features over 3,300 exhibitors, and covers 1.9 million square feet. But there are no shooting ranges at CES. To check out TrackingPoint, we had to drive out to the hills outside of town.

As someone who not only isn't a marksman but pretty much avoids guns altogether, I approached the TrackingPoint rifle a bit gingerly. However, when the company's president, Jason Schauble, walked me through it, I realized that as long as I paid attention (and observed the basic safety rules of firearms), I would be able to hit that target without trouble. Not 15 minutes later, I did — at a distance of nearly seven football fields.
How does it work? A laser rangefinder identifies the target, and tells the gun where to aim to hit it, given conditions such as humidity, wind, and the typical ballistic drop you'd expect from a bullet shot from a gun at such a distance.
You pick your target by dropping a pin on it using the camcorder-like zoom lens. When you want to shoot that target, you line up crosshairs inside the scope with the pin you dropped. The weirdest thing is, when you squeeze the trigger, it doesn't fire. You have to squeeze the trigger and line up the crosshairs with your mark. When you do, the gun goes boom, and the target takes a bullet.
No matter where you are on the gun debate, the technology used is an impressive system. The rifle will be available soon from TrackingPoint (http://tracking-point.com/). Watch the video above for the whole story.

Ninjahedge
January 11th, 2013, 10:07 AM
It is only a matter of time before that tech is "yesterday's news" and you can pick it up for $750 at WalMart or D!ck's.

BBMW
January 11th, 2013, 10:18 AM
Technology marches on. listening to all the angst about assault rifles, in point of fact all rifles are assault rifles. The lever action rifle was the assault rifle of the era from the latter parts of the civil war till about 1900. The bolt action rifle was the assault rifle of WWI (and into WWII where it was replaced by the first of what we'd now call assault rifles.) I'm sure what we're using now will be obsoleted at some point. but through pretty much all of history, whatever a basic infantryman would carry was available to civilians, and was the basis for civilian firearms.

ZippyTheChimp
January 11th, 2013, 10:47 AM
This statement
but through pretty much all of history, whatever a basic infantryman would carry was available to civilians, and was the basis for civilian firearms.

is incorrect.

What we popularly call machine guns are fully automatic weapons that were once available to civilians. The Thompson of the gangland 30s was eventually banned (still is banned), but was used by WWII infantry. I carried a machine gun; US soldiers still do.

Do you wish to discus mini-guns; they've been around a long time.

But lets cut through all this NRA-speak crap. Explain the logic of private ownership of a high capacity assault rife?

GordonGecko
January 11th, 2013, 11:15 AM
But lets cut through all this NRA-speak crap. Explain the logic of private ownership of a high capacity assault rife?

You can't cut through the NRA-speak crap because the answer is based on NRA-speak crap. The reason is pretty unanimously paranoia about the government and keeping them in check from not coming "after them" in some fantasyland coup to undo the american revolution and instill some sort of socialist/communist/fill-in-the-blank system. They need their assault riffles to wage a war they think may be fought against them.

Hate to break it to you gun nuts, but no matter how powerful your semi-automatic weapons are, the government could wipe you out with the push of a button if they wanted to and you would never see your assailant

ZippyTheChimp
January 11th, 2013, 12:16 PM
Evidently, can't even protect themselves from common everyday homicide.


Self-professed 'gun nut' Keith Ratliff found fatally shot in the head in suspected homicide

'Every one of you should be able to own an assault weapon of your choice,' Ratliff posted last year on YouTube.
Ratliff was a channel producer for the FPSRussia, one of the top 10 most popular channels on YouTube.
The channel features a man in Russian accent test firing various assault weapons and has 3.4 million subscribers.

By Eric L. Hinton / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, January 10, 2013, 9:54 AM

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1237266.1357825241!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/shot2.jpg
Keith Ratliff was a fervent Second Amendment gun advocate
and believed all Americans should be able to possess assault weapons.

In a rather macabre bit of irony, a self-professed "gun nut" who was a YouTube channel producer for fellow gun enthusiasts was found fatally shot in the head in his Carnesville, Ga., home on Jan. 3. Police are investigating the case as a homicide.

Keith Ratliff, 32, was a channel producer for the popular FPSRussia firearms channel on YouTube, according to FoxNews.com. The channel boasts 3.4 million subscribers and has more than 537 million video views. The videos largely consist of a man with a Russian accent test firing various high-powered firearms. The channel is ranked as one of the top 10 channels on YouTube.

Police found numerous weapons at the crime scene, according to WSB-TV. Some of the weapons were even manufactured by Ratliff himself. "He (Ratliff) did sustain a gunshot wound that was not self-inflicted,” Mike Ayers of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation told FoxNews.com.


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1237254!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/shot.jpg

Although Ratliff primarily worked behind the scenes of the YouTube channel he would occasionally jump in front of the camera himself. In one video he went on a rant about how all Americans should be allowed to carry assault weapons.

“When our forefathers were around all arms were military arms. Yet for you and I to possess military arms you’ve got to have a stack of paperwork. You’ve got to be a business. You’ve got to have a federal firearms license. You’ve got to have a retail stamp. You’ve got to have a special occupations stamp. You have to have the type 10 or 7 manufacturing stamp. You’ve got to be incorporated to protect yourself,” Ratliff said.

Ratliff continued, “You’ve got to have all that paperwork just to get started. That limits who can own true military assault arms. I can own them. Most of you can’t. That should be illegal. Every one of you should be able to own an assault weapon of your choice because that’s what the Second Amendment is about. It’s about owning weaponry to allow you to defend yourself from all enemies no matter where they rise from.”

"I am a gun nut," Ratliff professes in the video.

Ratliff also went to Twitter to express his feelings on gun ownerships. On Aug. 12 he tweeted, “I went to the movies with my pistol in my pocket the whole time I was praying that somebody would try to pull a Batman!” — an apparent reference to the July 20, 2012, a mass shooting occurred inside of a movie theater in Aurora, Colo. during a screening of the film "The Dark Knight Rises."

Levi Fox, a neighbor of Ratliff's, told FoxNews he couldn't believe that Ratliff had been shot to death.

"They'd come over and talk to us and shoot off some guns. We'd both show off a little, show what we had," said Fox. "He just takes really big guns and blows stuff up with them … shoots them and introduces a lot of people to new types of guns," said Fox.

Ratliff is survived by a wife and a 2-year-old son.

© Copyright 2013 NYDailyNews.com


I went to the movies with my pistol in my pocket the whole time I was praying that somebody would try to pull a Batman!So this is one of the "good guys with guns" we want lurkign around public places ready to protect us?

Sympathy for his family, but none for him. A crazy A-hole off the planet. Not a bad thing.

Ninjahedge
January 11th, 2013, 01:15 PM
But you then get examples that the NRA pulls out of nowhere, like the call from a frightened wife to her husband as he told her how to use a pistol to defend herself from an intruder.


Funny thing is, nobody seems to be going against pistols. Also, she was hiding in a closet.... could someone tell me how easy it is to use an assault rifle (or semi-auto equivalent) while hiding in a closet? Would that be the preferred firearm? Also... what the hell does pistol use have to do with AR regulation?


:confused:

BBMW
January 12th, 2013, 01:12 PM
If you have an AR in your hands, hiding in a closet wouldn't likely to be necessary.

If you want to cut the gun murder rate, this fixation on high capacity rifles is STATICALLY nothing but a distraction. Yes, I know there have been a few high profile mass shootings using them (as this one), but...

in 2011, out of 8,583 gun murders, 6,220 were committed by with handguns, 323 were committed with all rifles (high capacity semi-autos would be a fraction of that, but it isn't broken out in the numbers.) There's another bucket of 1,587 murders where the weapon type wasn't specified, but there's no reason why those wouldn't keep the same distribution of those where the type of gun was specified.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

There are a few other numbers I'd like to know, that I can't seem to find:

How many murders are committed with guns legally bought by the killer?

What % murders are committed by repeat felons? There are strict federal laws against convicted felons being in possession of guns. From what I hear, these are rarely prosecuted.

eddhead
January 12th, 2013, 04:52 PM
OK, you convinced me. Outlaw handguns as well.

Ninjahedge
January 14th, 2013, 09:24 AM
If you have an AR in your hands, hiding in a closet wouldn't likely to be necessary.

BS. In the example that was brought up, Mommy would not have been standing out, or in full prone position at the top of the stairs with a semi-auto AR(15?).

You are convoluting examples.


If you want to cut the gun murder rate, this fixation on high capacity rifles is STATICALLY nothing but a distraction. Yes, I know there have been a few high profile mass shootings using them (as this one), but...

But if there was no high capacity, we would have not had the killing in CT. Period. Having extend clips, for whatever convenience they impart, is not worth A SINGLE HUMAN LIFE.


in 2011, out of 8,583 gun murders, 6,220 were committed by with handguns, 323 were committed with all rifles (high capacity semi-autos would be a fraction of that, but it isn't broken out in the numbers.) There's another bucket of 1,587 murders where the weapon type wasn't specified, but there's no reason why those wouldn't keep the same distribution of those where the type of gun was specified.

So those 323, or whatever fraction, are worthless? If you want to get into the Handgun debate, how many were revolvers as opposed to semi automatic pistols? Focus on one thing, THEN deal with others. Having more deaths from another does not remove the need to regulate a "lesser danger".


There are a few other numbers I'd like to know, that I can't seem to find:

How many murders are committed with guns legally bought by the killer?

What % murders are committed by repeat felons? There are strict federal laws against convicted felons being in possession of guns. From what I hear, these are rarely prosecuted.

There are too many different permutations that all need to be addressed and not at the exclusions of the others. But this argument gets too congested. Instead of calling for MORE restrictions, siting more deaths by guns is somehow viewed as validation for LESS laws?

i heard the Senator from Maine on CBS this morning talking about gun laws in about the most reasonable manner I have heard. His addressing of it involves removal of the generic label "Assault Rifle" as it is too easy to blend. The actual purpose of the rifle should be the more of measurement. In Main, the state with the BEST safety ratio (lowest rate of death for highest rate of ownership) laws like the "5 shot clip" are made and followed by people that believe that this is the 'fair chance' clip for hunting. There is just a healthier attitude towards this than I am seeing coming from screaming spitting NRA "spokespeople".

mariab
January 14th, 2013, 11:19 PM
But if there was no high capacity, we would have not had the killing in CT. But you have to admit, NH, that if there were no such thing as assault rifles in the US, and if there were only low-capacity semi-auto pistol clips, say 9 to a magazine, there is a possibility and a probability, that Lanza would have had two guns with a multi-magazine belt. And he, being experienced, would have known how to drop the empties and reload so fast there would barely be enough time for the victims to react, much less ultimately save themselves. Nevermind shotguns and grenades, that's another point, which could segue into another, and another...

mariab
January 14th, 2013, 11:29 PM
That statement by Audrey Bart sounded harsh to me. I know there's a time to mourn and a time to move on, but her kids did not have everything taken from them.


Newtown debates future of school where 26 died

By DAVE COLLINS | Associated Press – 16 hrs ago

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/d_ePSO.qolvvCONe4.JjRA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTEwNjtweG9mZj01MDtweW 9mZj0wO3E9ODU7dz0xOTA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/video/video.hulu.com/5eb04ab7d4819bb7f7dc7ee2e5e43575

NEWTOWN, Conn. (AP) — A month after a gunman killed 26 people at an elementary school, some Newtown parents say the building should be demolished, while others believe the school should be renovated and the areas where the killings occurred removed.
Talk has turned to the future of the Sandy Hook Elementary School as life slowly begins moving forward in town. Resident at a public meeting Sunday made passionate arguments about whether their kids should ever return to the site of the tragedy.
"I have two children who had everything taken from them," said Audrey Bart, whose children attend the school but weren't injured in the shooting. "The Sandy Hook Elementary School is their school. It is not the world's school. It is not Newtown's school. We cannot pretend it never happened, but I am not prepared to ask my children to run and hide. You can't take away their school."
But fellow Sandy Hook parent Stephanie Carson said she can't imagine ever sending her son back to the building where 20 first-graders and six educators died.
"I know there are children who were there who want to go back," Carson said. "But the reality is, I've been to the new school where the kids are now, and we have to be so careful just walking through the halls. They are still so scared."

The meeting at Newtown High School about the future of Sandy Hook drew about 200 people. A second meeting has been set for Friday. Town officials also are planning private meetings with the victims' families to get their input.
On Monday, the grassroots group Sandy Hook Promise invited victims' family members to a news conference where an initiative to prevent similar tragedies was to be unveiled.
Co-founder Tim Makris said Friday the group, formerly known as Newtown United, does not represent or speak for the families. "We're here to help and support the families when they're ready to move forward," he said.
Although opinions were mixed at Sunday's meeting in Newtown, most agreed that the Sandy Hook children and teachers should stay together. They've been moved to a school building about seven miles away in a neighboring town that has been renamed Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Mergim Bajraliu, a senior at Newtown High School, attended Sandy Hook, and his sister is a fourth-grader there. He said the school should stay as it is, and a memorial for the victims should be built there.
"We have our best childhood memories at Sandy Hook Elementary School, and I don't believe that one psychopath — who I refuse to name — should get away with taking away any more than he did on Dec 14," he said.

Police say Adam Lanza, 20, killed his mother at the home they shared in Newtown before opening fire with a semi-automatic rifle at the school and killing himself as police arrived.
Last week, residents around town expressed similar opinions about the school's future.
Susan Gibney, who lives in Sandy Hook, said she purposely doesn't drive by the school because it's too disturbing. She has three children in high school, but they didn't attend Sandy Hook Elementary School. She believes the building should be torn down.
"I wouldn't want to have to send my kids back to that school," said Gibney, 50. "I just don't see how the kids could get over what happened there."
Laurie Badick, of Newtown, whose children attended the school several years ago, said she's torn. "Sandy Hook school meant the world to us before this happened. ... I have my memories in my brain and in my heart, so the actual building, I think the victims need to decide what to do with that."

Fran Bresson, a retired police officer who attended Sandy Hook Elementary School in the 1950s, wants the school to reopen, but he thinks the hallways and classrooms where staff and students were killed should be demolished.
"To tear it down completely would be like saying to evil, 'You've won,'" the 63-year-old Southbury resident said.
Residents of towns where mass shootings occurred have grappled with the same dilemma. Some have renovated, some have demolished.
Columbine High School, where two student gunmen killed 12 schoolmates and a teacher, reopened several months afterward. Crews removed the library, where most of the victims died, and replaced it with an atrium.
On an island in Norway where 69 people — more than half of them teenagers attending summer camp — were killed by a gunman in 2011, extensive remodeling is planned. The main building, a cafeteria where 13 of the victims died, will be torn down.
Virginia Tech converted a classroom building where a student gunman killed 30 people in 2007 into a peace studies and violence prevention center.
An Amish community in Pennsylvania tore down the West Nickel Mines Amish School and built a new school a few hundred yards away after a gunman killed five girls there in 2006.
Newtown First Selectwoman E. Patricia Llodra said that in addition to the community meetings, the town is planning private gatherings with the victims' families to talk about the school's future. She said the aim is to finalize a plan by March.
"I think we have to start that conversation now," Llodra said. "It will take many, many months to do any kind of school project. We have very big decisions ahead of us. The goal is to bring our students home as soon as we can."

http://news.yahoo.com/newtown-debates-future-school-where-26-died-072540793.html

IrishInNYC
January 15th, 2013, 08:43 AM
I'll preface this by saying I'm not a conspiracy seeker or theorist in any shape or form. I do though try to question and explore the force fed news and information that the media and government allows us to receive. This video, if nothing else, makes one think and question some of that very media information.

It's a half hour long and some of it is pure fluff but some segments, if not truly questionable, are just plain weird.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9GxXYKx_8

Ninjahedge
January 15th, 2013, 09:16 AM
But you have to admit, NH, that if there were no such thing as assault rifles in the US, and if there were only low-capacity semi-auto pistol clips, say 9 to a magazine, there is a possibility and a probability, that Lanza would have had two guns with a multi-magazine belt. And he, being experienced, would have known how to drop the empties and reload so fast there would barely be enough time for the victims to react, much less ultimately save themselves. Nevermind shotguns and grenades, that's another point, which could segue into another, and another...

I would also admit, after playing games (I know, not reality) that it is ALWAYS easier to to have a 30 round magazine than to take 5 seconds to drop clip, grab the next, load, c.ock, and fire the next round.

And that does not refute the whole "5 shot clip" that was talked about for hunting rifles in Maine.

Removing ANY restrictive legislation because it is incomplete and does not address every possible happening is a sure way to get nothing in the end and is NOT a valid argument. It is like saying "Why should we have traffic lights if we have no speed limit? People get killed by speeding cars all the time, what use is a traffic light when people still speed?". (I know, both are already in effect, and this was NEVER an argument, but was meant as an illustration...).

This does NOT, however, remove the need to think ahead to avoid conflict/gaps.

mariab
January 15th, 2013, 03:21 PM
I'm not even implying that nothing should be done. This issue should have been nipped in the bud but it wasn't and now things are out of control. What I mean is after they finally get around to banning assault rifles, what next? Because it will be a start, but it's pretty much just a drop in the bucket. How long will it take them to put something comprehensive in place? Because the way they're famous for dragging their feet, and the fight they'll get from lawful, non-psychotic gun owners, not to mention the psychotic ones, there will be ten more mass shootings before the dust finally settles. If they're going to think ahead, they better be thinking about more than assault rifles.



5 seconds to drop clip, grab the next, load, c.ock, and fire the next round. It would take an experienced shooter less time than that.

mariab
January 15th, 2013, 03:36 PM
A**holes have to pop up at every crisis and harrass people. Like the westboro baptist "church". Go theorize on something else. Like JFK or Roswell.

Man who helped Sandy Hook kids is harassed by conspiracy theorists

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/KhT28aU.VDr9ezKTgKgsEQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQwO3E9ODU7dz00MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/208/2011/06/21/blogger-stableford-40_041211.jpgSenior Media
By Dylan Stableford, Yahoo! News (http://wirednewyork.com/blogs/author/dylan-stableford/) | The Lookout (http://wirednewyork.com/blogs/lookout/) – 4 hrs ago


http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/FYzeNLaVMnhUaEJydRWo4A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTMxMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/thelookout/gene-rosen-fox-news.jpgGene Rosen on the Fox News Channel.

(Fox News)A man who found six children in his driveway in Newtown, Conn., after their teacher had been shot and killed in last month's school massacre has become the target of conspiracy theorists who believe the shootings were staged.
“I don’t know what to do,” Gene Rosen told Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/this_man_helped_save_six_children_is_now_getting_h arassed_for_it/). “I’m getting hang-up calls, I’m getting some calls, I’m getting emails with, not direct threats, but accusations that I’m lying, that I’m a crisis actor, ‘How much am I being paid?'”
Rosen, a 69-year-old retired psychologist who lives near Sandy Hook Elementary School where the shootings took place, says his inbox is filled with emails like this one:
How are all those little students doing? You know, the ones that showed up at your house after the ‘shooting’. What is the going rate for getting involved in a gov’t sponsored hoax anyway?

“The quantity of the material is overwhelming,” Rosen said, adding that he's sought the advice of a retired state police officer and plans to alert the FBI.
[Related: One month after school massacre, parents of Sandy Hook victims speak (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/sandy-hook-school-shooting-promise-181324286.html)]
On the morning of Dec. 14, Rosen had just finished feeding his cats when he saw six small children "sitting in a neat semicircle" at the end of his driveway. According to the Associated Press:
A school bus driver was standing over them, telling them things would be all right. It was about 9:30 a.m., and the children, he discovered, had just run from the school to escape a gunman.
"We can't go back to school," one little boy told Rosen. "Our teacher is dead."

Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old gunman, had shot his way into the school and opened fire, killing 20 children and six adults.
[Slideshow: Scenes from Newtown, Dec. 14-21, 2012 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stabes/sets/72157632390904910/)]
Rosen took the four girls and two boys—students of slain teacher Victoria Soto—into his home, gave them toys and comforted them while he tried to reach their parents. He spent the days following the massacre telling his story to the swarming media that invaded the small Connecticut town in the wake of the shootings.
“I wanted to speak about the bravery of the children,” Rosen told Salon (http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/this_man_helped_save_six_children_is_now_getting_h arassed_for_it/). “I guess I kind of opened myself up to this.”
A quick Web search for Rosen's name reveals some of what he's opened himself up to: Appearing online are photos of his home, his address and phone number, several fake YouTube accounts and plenty of conspiracy theories.
One post, entitled "Grieving Town Grandfather, or Bad 'Crisis Actor,'" reads in part:
Gene's oft repeated, and changing, story about that day, focuses totally on the kids and the sound of gunshots. Even though his eyes and ears should've taken in the whole scene, his story focuses completely on the kids and the guns.
Why? Well, if this was a false flag event designed to move political opinion on gun control, here in America, then you would get a lot more bang for your buck by talking about the innocent little children. That's what tugs on America's heart strings the most ... especially around Christmas time.


Click on link for video:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gene-rosen-sandy-hook-conspiracy-155033813.html

GordonGecko
January 15th, 2013, 03:39 PM
f'ing quacks

ZippyTheChimp
January 15th, 2013, 03:48 PM
But you have to admit, NH, that if there were no such thing as assault rifles in the US, and if there were only low-capacity semi-auto pistol clips, say 9 to a magazine, there is a possibility and a probability, that Lanza would have had two guns with a multi-magazine belt.You have to realize how much more accurate and deadly a rifle is.

Mass shootings in the US have spiked since the assault weapons ban expired.

There are arguments as to whether or not an assault weapons ban is necessary, but no one has made the argument that an assault weapon is necessary. If you like to shoot them, there could be an arrangement where shooting ranges are authorized to rent the weapon to be fired on site.

Ninjahedge
January 15th, 2013, 03:50 PM
It would take an experienced shooter less time than that.

3 seconds? How many shots can you get off in 3 seconds? How does your aim suffer when you reload? I know that spamming shots makes you lose accuracy, but once you are spraying you get a better idea of where you are shooting. If you have to reload every 5-9 shots, you will lose a bit of accuracy on the next shot or two unless you take time to aim.....

My point was not to be a stickler, but to stop the discounting of a measure that would have an effect on mass killings.

Ultimate would be to remove all magazine weapons...... revolvers, even with quick loaders, are slower than clips.

ZippyTheChimp
January 15th, 2013, 04:17 PM
I'll preface this by saying I'm not a conspiracy seeker or theorist in any shape or form. I do though try to question and explore the force fed news and information that the media and government allows us to receive. This video, if nothing else, makes one think and question some of that very media information. Two things made me stop watching this nonsense.

The author stated that the video was posted a month after the shooting, and that there was new information. But I've seen this stuff posted (and debunked) weeks ago.

Suffice it to say that there is much confusion immediately after such an event.

The confusion about the number of weapons - initially thought to be three - and that a non-handgun was found in the car, led conspiracy-theorists to claim that the AR-15 was in the car. I read this in the comments of a Washington Post article;, this guy was going on and on about it until another commenter posted that a shotgun was found in the car.

In the video, he states that "people are saying this is a shotgun, you may be correct although there is another clip out there showing a different weapon being taken from this vehicle."

Out there?

Could you show it to us?

At that point, he questions the ME's statement that a rifle was used in all the killings by taking the previous unsubstantiated speculation that the weapon in the car was a rifle (not a shotgun) as fact.

I stopped there. Amateurish and a waste of time.

mariab
January 15th, 2013, 08:25 PM
An assault weapons ban is necessary, and if ranges want to rent them out that's a better idea. But it's not enough, and it looks like either side will never be in agreement. All the NRA wants to talk about are their "rights", without even so much as an acknowledgement that things are out of control. They want to steer the entire argument towards mental health and individual responsibilty, when it's clear that some individuals are incapable of being responsible.
Proponents of hard core gun control if they had their way, want all automatic and semi-automatic weapons banned, and severe restrictions on nons. They don't believe that civilians should have carry permits, even for revolvers, unless they have a high-risk job. They are punishing millions of law-abiding gun owners. The extremes of the two sides don't seem to want to even bend, and those are the ones who are driving the argument.


NY signed a big law today, but:


Owners of an estimated 1 million previously legal semiautomatic rifles, like the Bushmaster model used to kill 20 children and six seven adults in Newtown, Conn., a month ago, will be able to keep their weapons, but will have a year to register them with police.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-passes-1st-gun-control-bill-newtown-school-massacre-article-1.1240644#ixzz2I65HUMgx That's why people are "stockpiling", and why gun sales, especially semi-auto rifles, have shot up since Newtown. Why not an outright ban, making all assault rifles illegal? Instead of a year to register, they have a year to turn them in through a buyback program. But I can already see blackmarket internet sales to other countries shooting up if they enact that kind of law.

BBMW
January 16th, 2013, 12:03 AM
NY passing a gun law is like the sun rising in the East, not particularly unexpected. It's also likely to be mostly symbolic, since the vast majority of crime guns used in NY come from out of state.

What I've been reading is that the administration is realizing that the can't get any gun control bill throug the house, and will just do what the can unilaterally (think window dressing.)

ZippyTheChimp
January 16th, 2013, 12:21 AM
since the vast majority of crime guns used in NY come from out of state.After all the stuff you've spouted over time, it's hilarious that you finally admit this.

How do you like the NRA's latest ad? http://www.nrastandandfight.com/

A Mother Jones article questioning the true membership of the NRA:
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/01/nra-membership-numbers

Latest ABC News/Washington Post Poll on gun control measures:
http://www.langerresearch.com/uploads/1146a1GunControl.pdf

BBMW
January 16th, 2013, 10:36 AM
I don't think I ever denied that nearly all of the crime guns in NY come from out of state. It's one of my points in showing the futility of NY's gun control laws. They only penalize the law abiding who follow them.

ZippyTheChimp
January 16th, 2013, 10:56 AM
It's one of my points in showing the futility of NY's gun control laws. They only penalize the law abiding who follow them.Do you think the out-of-state sources for firearms (internet, gun shows) aren't law-abiding? Was the football player that killed his girlfriend law-abiding until he pulled the trigger?

You need to get off this black & white view of the world; it's really more complicated.

Do you think that some states enacting laws might make people change their views on some aspects of gun-policy, and maybe open a dialogue where meaningful rules are legislated? Would that be bad thing? It's already happening.

You seem to be lockstep in line with the NRA - anything we try to do would be useless, so why bother. This avoids answering the question of what harm banning assault weapons and high cap magazines would do.

As for NY's gun-control laws being futile, I give you NYC crime statistics as example. In your world, the disarmed law-abiding citizens walking around should be easy prey for criminals. Hasn't turned out that way, right?

Ninjahedge
January 16th, 2013, 12:25 PM
One thing to always remember is that criminals, in general, are lazy.

MOST CRIMES happen within blocks of where they live or work, not 20 miles away. There are targeted ares, yes, but the majority of crimes occur in low income "crime infested" areas to begin with.

And, ironically, crime seems to be highest in areas where guns are most prevalent. There are many essentially unarmed suburbs in NJ that have MUCH less crime in them than Newark or Camden. Doesn't THAT go against the whole "more guns = less crime" argument?

Agreed that if you do not have unilateral measures to stop this kind of thing, you will still have a problem, but until you can convince me that this would be USELESS (absolutely), it is hard to counter argue it. What HARM would it do? What COST? Again, siting unproven speculatives of "more regulation would leave that state vulnerable" is unproven heresay.

BBMW
January 16th, 2013, 02:47 PM
Some criminals are lazy and stupid (well most.) Some are smart and quite hard working. How do you think metric tons of cocaine get from Peru to New York? It ironic that Camden and Newark have the same relative strict gun laws as the rest of NJ, but still have rampant gun crime. What you don't seem to realize is that any ban really only applies to those who are willing to honor it.

GordonGecko
January 16th, 2013, 03:15 PM
Criminal violence is only half the problem, the other half is accidental domestic deaths and suicides

ZippyTheChimp
January 16th, 2013, 06:00 PM
It ironic that Camden and Newark have the same relative strict gun laws as the rest of NJ, but still have rampant gun crime.Selective statistical data is another NRA tactic. There are other factors that contribute to gun crime in Camden and Newark vs the rest of NJ than just the availability of guns.

Ninjahedge
January 17th, 2013, 09:07 AM
Some criminals are lazy and stupid (well most.)


That is what I said... ;)


Some are smart and quite hard working. How do you think metric tons of cocaine get from Peru to New York?

And how many of them shoot "innocents" like the movie theater massacre or the school shootings? Bringing in "hard working" criminals in a discussion over gun control is a little misplaced.


It ironic that Camden and Newark have the same relative strict gun laws as the rest of NJ, but still have rampant gun crime. What you don't seem to realize is that any ban really only applies to those who are willing to honor it.

Irrelevant. The gun laws are not strict enough.

BBMW
January 17th, 2013, 10:19 AM
[/B]


That is what I said... ;)



And how many of them shoot "innocents" like the movie theater massacre or the school shootings? Bringing in "hard working" criminals in a discussion over gun control is a little misplaced.


Because the more enterprising criminals will supply the market for guns created by the lazy criminals, just like they supply the drugs from a wholesale level.





Irrelevant. The gun laws are not strict enough.

Because squeezing the jello harder is not going to have the same effect?

ZippyTheChimp
January 17th, 2013, 11:00 AM
Because squeezing the jello harder is not going to have the same effect?What are you talking about?

Ninjahedge
January 17th, 2013, 11:53 AM
Because the more enterprising criminals will supply the market for guns created by the lazy criminals, just like they supply the drugs from a wholesale level.

No, they won't.

There will always be some illegal trafficking of weapons, but stating that as a complete refutal of any steps to curtail gun violence is not valid. Again, it does not directly apply....


Because squeezing the jello harder is not going to have the same effect?

Again, irrelevant. Do not use an inappropriate analogy.

Putting the jello in a container helps. Making sure you do not let a 3 year old have a tub full of jello (to throw around) is another. Using a spoon to eat the jello.

Squeezing the jello is more akin to trying to reduce gun violence by requiring all bullets to be a certain color. It is more restrictive and completely useless.

mariab
March 14th, 2013, 09:52 PM
There but for the grace of whoever forgot to take the paper off the windows go they.


Paper-covered window saves entire class from crazed Sandy Hook killer Adam Lanza, who had researched other mass shootings before massacre in Newtown, Conn.: report

Police reportedly have surmised that the 20-year-old gunman, who took his own life, might have been trying to top all other mass murderers.

By Joe Kemp (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=Joe Kemp) / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Published: Thursday, March 14, 2013, 3:34 PMU
pdated: Thursday, March 14, 2013, 7:03 PM

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1288783.1363290066!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/newtown-1.jpgJames Keivom/New York Daily News

People visit a makeshift memorial two days after the Newtown massacre. Although state police have declined to comment on the investigation, an anonymous law enforcement official has said literature on mass murderers was found at Lanza's home.


An entire classroom of children was spared during the Connecticut elementary school massacre because the gunman believed black paper over the room’s window meant no students were inside, was duped into believing they weren’t even there, a report revealed Thursday.
The construction paper tacked to the inside of the door window had been leftover from a lockdown drill a few weeks earlier at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Adam Lanza (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Adam+Lanza), 20, bypassed the room and went on with his bloody rampage that left 20 children and six staff members dead on Dec. 14, sources told the Hartford Courant (http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-newtown-lanza-mass-murderers-20130313,0,4473768.story).
The sources also provided chilling details of the five-minute, 152-bullet killing spree Lanza committed after he fatally shot his mother inside their home.
Investigators suspect Lanza, who killed himself as police arrived to the Newtown school, was trying to surpass the body count of previous mass murderers, the paper reported.
RELATED: DAD OF NEWTOWN VICTIM BEGS SENATORS TO BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/dad-newtown-victim-begs-senators-ban-assault-weapons-article-1.1274978)
State police have declined to comment on the investigation, but an anonymous law enforcement official told the Associated Press that authorities found literature and news clippings on other mass shootings inside the Yogananda Street home where Lanza lived with his mother, Nancy.
The Hartford Courant previously reported that investigators found news articles inside Lanza’s house about Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian mass murderer who killed 77 people in 2011.
The paper, citing anonymous sources, reported Thursday that Lanza grabbed his guns — which included two pistols and a Bushmaster AR-15 semiautomatic rifle — from his mother’s vault. It was not clear if it was open, or if Lanza knew the combination.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1289041!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-newtown15n-0314.jpgANDREW GOMBERT/EPA

Mourners place flowers at a memorial near Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. following the mass shooting that left at 20 students and six teachers dead.


Lanza, who frequented gun ranges with his mother, shot his way into the school through the glass windows at the front entrance and headed towards the first-grade classrooms, the paper reported.
The burst of gunfire prompted Principal Dawn Hochsprung and the school’s psychologist, Mary Scherlach, to run into the hallway — where Lanza shot them dead on sight. Two teachers in different rooms were hit by ricochet bullets fired at the two women, the paper reported.
RELATED: FACEBOOK AGREES TO REMOVE SOME NEWTOWN PAGES (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/facebook-agrees-remove-newtown-pages-article-1.1273131)
The first classroom Lanza approached belonged to Kaitlin Roig, who shut her door when she heard the first shots fired. Tacked on the inside of her door’s window was a piece of black construction paper, which she placed there as part of a lockdown drill at the school just weeks before.
Lanza skipped by the room and bypassed Victoria Soto’s class before he entered a class taught by Lauren Rousseau and opened fire.
The gunman killed all but one child in the room, where the youngsters crowded in a back corner as they tried to flee into a bathroom.
One girl escaped by pretending to be dead and ran out of the room after Lanza left.
Lanza then went back to Soto’s room, where he started firing at helpless children hiding under their desks.
At some point, the assault rifle jammed or Lanza had trouble reloading and six children managed to escape.
Soto, before she was killed, heroically placed five children in a closet — where authorities later found them alive.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lanza-fan-mass-murderers-report-article-1.1288766#ixzz2NZL4DuLD

ZippyTheChimp
March 28th, 2013, 11:12 PM
What Police Found in Adam Lanza's Home

By Josh Voorhees Posted Thursday, March 28, 2013

Connecticut police have released the latest batch of documents relating to the Newtown school shooting—search warrants that provide the latest glimpse into the home life of Adam Lanza but paint an unclear picture of what drove him to kill 20 first graders and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary before taking his own life.

Reporters are still digging through the documents (you can check out four of the search warrants here (http://www.scribd.com/collections/4202852/Adam-Lanza-Search-Warrants)), but among the early takeaways:

A Gun Safe: Hartford Courant: (http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-newtown-search-warrants-20130327-1,0,5171609.story) "Investigators found a gun safe belonging to Nancy Lanza, the shooter's mother, open and with no evidence that it had been broken into. Adam Lanza shot and killed his mother at their home before going on his rampage at the school, police have said. Police found three photographs of a dead person covered in plastic and blood. The warrants do not indicate whether authorities know the identity of the person. They confiscated a military-style uniform from Adam Lanza's bedroom, the warrants indicate."

1,600 Rounds: CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/28/us/connecticut-shooting-documents/index.html): "Investigators found more than 1,600 rounds of ammunition in the house."

Guns as Gifts: Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CONNECTICUT_SCHOOL_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-28-11-32-59): "Investigators found a holiday card containing a check made out to Lanza for the purchase of a firearm, authored by his mother, Nancy Lanza. Adam Lanza shot and killed his mother in their Newtown home before driving to the school to carry out the massacre."

Samurai Swords: Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/adam-lanza-newtown-search-warrants-released-131056789.html): "In addition to several guns inside the home, police also recovered three Samurai swords and long pole with a blade on one side and a spear on the other. Inside the car the shooter drove to the school, officers recovered a 12-gauge shotgun and two magazines containing 70 rounds of ammunition, the documents show."

Reading Material: NBC News: (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/28/17501282-newtown-gunman-adam-lanza-fired-155-bullets-in-less-than-five-minutes-prosecutor-says?lite) "Also recovered were a National Rifle Association certificate, seven of Lanza’s journals, drawings that he made and books, including an NRA guide to the basics of pistol shooting, authorities said. Other books included Look at Me: My Life with Asperger’s and Born on a Blue Day: Inside the Mind of an Autistic Savant. Among the other items seized were a holiday card containing a check from his mother to buy a firearm, an article from The New York Times about a school shooting at Northern Illinois University and three photographs of what appeared to be a dead person covered with plastic and blood."

Personal Notes: ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/newtown-gunman-arsenal-pistols-shotguns-hatchets-knives/story?id=18829900#.UVRUX6s-sug): "In addition, police discovered personal notes, memoirs and thoughts collected by Lanza. There were also newspaper clippings, drawings and medical bills police have been scrutinizing to develop a psychological profile of the gunman."

A Shut-In: New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/nyregion/search-warrants-reveal-items-seized-at-adam-lanzas-home.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&smid=tw-nytmetro&partner=socialflow): "The day of the Newtown shooting, agents with the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed a person who said Mr. Lanza rarely left his home. The person, whose name is redacted, considered Mr. Lanza to be a 'shut-in and an avid gamer who plays Call of Duty, amongst other games,' a law enforcement affidavit accompanying the warrants stated."

It Was Over in Less than 5 Minutes : NBC News (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/28/17501282-newtown-gunman-adam-lanza-fired-155-bullets-in-less-than-five-minutes-prosecutor-says?lite): "Adam Lanza fired 155 bullets in less than five minutes on the day he killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the chief prosecutor investigating the massacre said Thursday. The total included 154 fired from a Bushmaster .223-model rifle and a final bullet, fired from a Glock 10mm handgun, that Lanza used to take his own life, said Stephen Sedensky, the chief prosecutor investigating the shooting."

© 2013 The Slate Group, LLC.

GordonGecko
March 29th, 2013, 12:05 AM
still waiting to hear about what they found, if anything, on that guy's computers and the ISP info on where he was hanging out online

Nexis4Jersey
March 29th, 2013, 12:09 AM
I'm still doubting he even had autism , of course well never know for sure since those records are sealed.....

lofter1
March 31st, 2013, 01:39 PM
still waiting to hear about what they found, if anything, on that guy's computers and the ISP info on where he was hanging out online
Didn't the gunner smash his hard drives before going to school?

Even so, would that info be available from the Service Provider records?

GordonGecko
March 31st, 2013, 06:04 PM
The question is how much could be recovered from the sabotaged drives. The service provider will have logs of all the IPs accessed and from there the detectives can subpoena the remote server records to obtain information on his activities. For uncooperative/foreign sites, the investigators can still go through publicly available postings or content to determine what he was doing with his time prior to the massacre

mariab
April 13th, 2013, 04:16 PM
Sandy Hook mom makes plea for 'common sense' gun controls

"As you've probably noticed, I'm not the president, I'm just a citizen," said Francine Wheeler, who took the spot usually reserved for the commander in chief, sending an emotional message about gun legislation. NBC's Kristen Welker reports.

By Matthew DeLuca, Staff Writer, NBC News
A mother who lost her 6-year-old son in the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School made an emotional plea for national gun-control legislation in an address from the White House.
Francine Wheeler made her appeal in lieu of the president’s weekly address. Her appearance is the only time President Obama has handed the address to anyone other than Vice President Joe Biden since the two first took office. Wheeler was joined by her husband David.

“I have hear people say that the tidal wave of anguish our country felt on 12/14 has receded, but not for us,” Wheeler said. “To us it feels as if it happened just yesterday, and in the four months since we lost our loved ones, thousands of other Americans have died at the end of a gun.”

The address, taped Friday, comes as several Sandy Hook families have mounted an aggressive effort to get a gun-control bill passed by Congress. Wheeler and her husband wrote the remarks after they were approached, the White House said.
“We have to convince the Senate to come together and pass common sense gun responsibility reforms that will make our communities safer and prevent more tragedies like the one we never thought would happen to us,” Wheeler said.
Family members of the Newtown victims were present on Capitol Hill Thursday when Senators voted 68-31 to move forward with the process of debating a gun bill that several Republican lawmakers had threatened to filibuster. Several Republican senators have said that the presence of Newtown families helped contribute to the unexpectedly overwhelming vote to move forward with the bill.
Among the more than a dozen relatives in the gallery was Jillian Soto, whose sister was killed at Sandy Hook.
“The tears that we had weren’t tears of joy, but tears of remembering this is happening,” Soto told NBC News shortly after the vote. “We’re here because of what happened to us.”
During her remarks, Wheeler and her husband wore green pins to commemorate the 20 schoolchildren, including their son, and six adults who died in the December shooting. The Wheelers’ older son Nate, a 4th grader at Sandy Hook, survived the shooting.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/130413-wheeler-hmed-7a.380;380;7;70;0.jpg
“Sometimes I close my eyes and all I can remember is that awful day waiting at the Sandy Hook volunteer firehouse for the boy who would never come home – the same firehouse that was home to Ben’s Tiger Scout Den 6,” said Wheeler, choking back tears. “But other times I feel Ben’s presence filling me with courage for what I have to do for him and all the others taken from us so violently and too soon.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/13/17734194-sandy-hook-mom-makes-plea-for-common-sense-gun-controls?lite

mariab
May 3rd, 2013, 08:25 PM
Newtown principal's kin will chain herself to school if it’s reopened

Erica Lafferty, daughter of slain Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, made the determined vow as a debate rages in Newtown as to what to do with the building

By Jennifer H. Cunningham (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=Jennifer H. Cunningham) AND Corky Siemaszko (http://wirednewyork.com/authors?author=Corky Siemaszko) / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, May 3, 2013, 2:57 PM

The daughter of the slain principal of Sandy Hook Elementary School vowed Friday to chain herself to the building if officials in Newtown try to reopen it.
Erica Lafferty made her vow as the still-stunned Connecticut town braced for what was expected to be a spirited, wrenching debate over the fate of the school building, where the massacre happened in December.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334444.1367611744!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/school-shooting-childrens-museum.jpgEliza Hallabeck/The Newtown Bee /AP

Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, principal at Sandy Hook Elementary School, in Newtown, Conn., was killed in the rampage.


“I will chain my body to it in protest if they try to reopen it,” Lafferty said on the Today show.
Lafferty’s mother, Dawn Hochsprung, was among the six staffers and 20 first-graders who were killed when deranged gunman Adam Lanza opened fire with a Bushmaster assault rifle.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334445.1367611883!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/usa-obama-citizens-award.jpgSHAWN THEW/EPA

President Barack Obama talks with Erica (C) Lafferty and Cheryl Lafferty (L) as they accept the 2012 Presidential Citizens Medal for slain Sandy Hook Principal Dawn Hochsprung in February 2013.


Lafferty is not alone. Dozens of other Newtown residents have been calling for the school-turned-slaughterhouse to be levelled and a new building constructed on the grounds — or at another site.
“I don’t see how they can reopen and use that building,” said Martin Blanco of the Newtown Action Alliance, whose kids attend another school in the town.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334443.1367611668!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-newtown5-0503.jpgRichard Harbus for New York Daily News

The entrance to Sandy Hook elementary school road entrance is still closed and the sign was taken down.


But Veronique Pozner, whose 6-year-old son Noah was also killed, said administrators should do whatever is best for the other children.
“If that’s the best site logically, economically for the other children — the ones that are alive — who am I to say what to do there?” she said on the show.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334340.1367607166!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/aptopix-connecticut-school-shooting.jpgJulio Cortez/AP

Law enforcement officials massed outside Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., on Dec. 14, 2012, the day 20 students and six staffers were slain.


Sandy Hook Elementary School has been shuttered since the Dec. 14 slaughter, and the 430 students who escaped Lanza’s wrath have been bussed to a temporary school in neighboring Monroe, Conn.
The Sandy Hook School Building Task Force, which includes more than two dozen local elected officials, will be using tragic history as its guide.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334435.1367611356!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-newtown-0503.jpgShannon Hicks/NEWTOWN BEE/AP

In this photo provided by the Newtown Bee, a police officer leads two women and a child from Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., where a gunman opened fire, killing 26 people, including 20 children, Friday, Dec. 14, 2012.


Columbine High School, outside of Denver, where two students killed a dozen classmates and a teacher in 1999, reopened several months later.
But the library where most of the killing was done was torn down and replaced with an atrium.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334440.1367611553!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-newtown3-0503.jpgMarcus Santos for New York Daily News

Boy in front the memorial for the victims of the Connecticut shooting.


At Virginia Tech, where a student-gunman killed 30 people in 2007, converted a classroom building into a peace studies and violence prevention center.
And in Pennsylvania Amish country, where a gunman in 2006 slaughtered five little girls at the Nickel Mines Amish School, their heartbroken kin tore down the building and built a new one, a hundred yards or so away.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334441.1367611592!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-newtown4-0503.jpgAndrew Theodorakis//New York Daily News

Community members show up at the memorial at the firehouse for the 27 people at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newton Connecticut.


“The task force members are good-hearted people who will do what’s best for the community,” said Blanco. “I will abide by whatever they decide.”



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/newtown-vic-relative-chain-vow-school-article-1.1334341#ixzz2SHM0LnUR

Ninjahedge
May 6th, 2013, 11:10 AM
Just read the title....

I think the school needs to be kept closed this year, but we can't close down things permanently because of a psycho's attack.

Something needs to be done to memorialize who was lost, but if everything stopped because of the dead... what service would that be to the still living?

ZippyTheChimp
May 12th, 2013, 03:41 PM
Can't ask 500 kids to go back into the same building.


Panel Recommends Building New School at Site of Sandy Hook Elementary

NEWTOWN, Conn — Confronting imperfect options, but in a spirit more hopeful than resigned, a task force of local leaders on Friday unanimously recommended tearing down Sandy Hook Elementary School and building a new one on the site where a gunman massacred 26 children and educators on Dec. 14.

In a meeting that addressed issues of land use, eminent domain, grief, traffic and even the two mother ducks who lay their eggs at the school every year, members of the 28-person task force in the end came down to two options: the current site or one about 200 yards down the road.

They heard from half a dozen community members, all of whom urged a return to the school site.

“We’re going home,” Lorna Szalay, the school’s kitchen manager, said as she hugged parents after the decision was reached.

Last week, the task force heard from teachers and a couple who had lost their child, saying it would be too painful to return. But on Friday, residents said the school was a central part of the community, and that it would be a triumph over tragedy to return there.

“Call me crazy, call me insensitive, but I would go back to that school tomorrow,” said Mergim Bajraliu, a local high school student, who rushed to the school that morning and who, with his two siblings, went to Sandy Hook. One is still a student at Sandy Hook. Mr. Bajraliu added: “The least we could do for those kids is to bring them home.”

The recommendation will now go to the local school board and would need the approval of local residents, who will vote in a referendum.

The task force reviewed four sites at the meeting on Friday, and then narrowed the options to two. Each would cost between $42 million and $47 million, with the state and federal governments expected to pick up the cost.

The 430 surviving students are attending a renovated school renamed Sandy Hook Elementary School in the neighboring town of Monroe. Task force members said the new site, which would have to be taken through eminent domain, could take longer to open as a school and provided little distance from the tragedy. Many parents preferred a new school on the old site and some feared the rancor that could come with seizing land for a new school.

The process of picking a new school has been an agonizing one, mirroring those at other schools where there have been shooting tragedies. At Columbine High School in Colorado, where a shooting rampage in 1999 by two students killed 12 schoolmates and a teacher in 1999 and injured 24 others, the school reopened several months later with the library, where most of the victims had died, taken apart and replaced with an atrium.

At Virginia Tech, a classroom building where an armed student killed 32 people in 2007 was converted to a peace studies and violence prevention center. The West Nickel Mines Amish School, where a gunman killed five girls in 2006, was torn down and a new school was built a few hundred yards away.

The Newtown task force had hoped to offer a recommendation on May 3 but after an emotional session with Sandy Hook teachers opposed to returning to the site, the group concluded a five-hour meeting without deciding what to do. The reactions from teachers and others associated with the tragedy made it clear just how difficult any attempt to salvage the existing building would be for some parents and teachers.

The task force began with a list of 40 possible locations. It investigated issues including enrollment patterns and more technical ones related to site selection, including traffic patterns, sewer and utility issues, land grade and the presence of wetlands. It boiled them down to two, the original school site and one nearby, but then reconsidered two others at a meeting last week.

Most vexing has been the emotional decision of whether to return to the original site, either with a renovated school or a new one at the same site, or to make the site a permanent memorial and place the school elsewhere..

“To me, that is always going to be a site where 26 people were murdered,”one panel member, Laura Roche, said at last week’s meeting. But on Friday, she voted with the other members for a new school at the old site as the best available option.

The longer the process went on, the more it became clear that there was no solution without costs and pain, said E. Patricia Llodra, the first selectwoman and a member of the task force.

“We all wanted a wonderful solution that would satisfy everyone and we realized that wasn’t going to happen,” she said. “But I think we reached a point where we could make a positive decision that we feel is the right thing to do.”

“It’s going to be a happy place full of children and learning,” Ms. Llodra said. “We need to make this work, and we will. We will.”


© 2013 The New York Times Company

mariab
May 13th, 2013, 03:54 PM
That's a good decision.

Merry
May 14th, 2013, 06:47 AM
I assume that the PBS Frontline programme has already been shown on TV over there?

Click the first link for an Australian interview with State Senator, Donald Williams.


Raising Adam Lanza

Next on Four Corners, an unflinching profile of the young man responsible for one of America's worst school massacres. Who was he, how was he allowed to slip away into an isolated world, entertaining himself with violent video games? What part did his mother play in his development and his access to the weapons that he would use to kill 27 people?

On December 14th last year, in the early hours of the morning, a 20-year-old loner by the name of Adam Lanza took a gun and shot his mother four times in the head as she slept. Then, gathering a cache of high powered weapons, he went to the Sandy Hook Elementary School, where he shot six adults and twenty children.

In the weeks and months that followed this horrific attack, the United States engaged in a bitter debate about gun control. President Barack Obama vowed action, only to find himself humiliated by federal Congress, when the modest gun control legislation he'd backed was voted down.

By contrast in Connecticut, the state where Lanza committed his crimes, the legislature has passed America's toughest ever anti-gun laws. In an attempt to understand the lessons behind the Newtown killings, Four Corners broadcasts a remarkable PBS Frontline documentary that examines the life of Adam Lanza and the path that led him to the shocking action he took last December.

The story raises many questions, not least amongst them: how could a disturbed young man get access to such dangerous weapons and could the Newtown massacre have been prevented?

To try and answer those questions Kerry O'Brien will speak to State Senator, Donald Williams, who led the push for greater gun control in Connecticut. Why did his state go it alone on reform and does he think the legislation will protect the people from another potential massacre?

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/05/13/3755270.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/raising-adam-lanza/

Ninjahedge
May 14th, 2013, 09:28 AM
how was he allowed to slip away into an isolated world, entertaining himself with violent video games?

:rolleyes:

Somehow they like to keep highlighting this, although many attacks were carried out WELL BEFORE there were these "true to life" violent games.

The easy accessibility of semi-automatic weapons contributed more to this than the fact that the kid liked going online to play Modern Warfare 4.

I thought the reason why kids were doing this was because of violent TV shows.
I thought the reason why kids were doing this was because of violent Rock Music.
I thought the reason why kids were doing this was because of the abandonment of Good Christian Values.

You see a pattern here?

lofter1
May 14th, 2013, 06:16 PM
I thought it was Chewing Gum :confused:

Ninjahedge
May 15th, 2013, 04:46 PM
Elvis Costello?

lofter1
May 15th, 2013, 08:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wCXr_6wgns

mariab
October 13th, 2013, 09:49 AM
Some people just beg to be punched in the face.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/gun-groups-plan-guns-save-lives-day-newton-anniversary-article-1.1483324

eddhead
October 15th, 2013, 09:47 AM
Nothing like a little front page editorializing!

GordonGecko
October 15th, 2013, 09:53 AM
classy

IrishInNYC
October 21st, 2013, 02:40 PM
2 killed at Nevada middle school; witness says student shot teacherFrom Amanda Watts and Chuck Johnston, CNN
updated 2:21 PM EDT, Mon October 21, 2013

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/131021130523-01-reno-shooting-1021-story-top.png
(http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/21/justice/nevada-middle-school-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1#)
Shots fired at Nevada middle school


STORY HIGHLIGHTS


NEW: The suspect was "neutralized," city officials say
NEW: Governor says "I was deeply saddened to learn of the horrific shooting"
School officials say two people were killed
A hospital spokeswoman says two people are in critical condition






(CNN) -- [Breaking news update at 2:20 p.m. Monday]
Of the two killed in Monday morning's shooting at a Nevada middle school, one was a staff member at the school, and the other "appears to be a student/suspect in this case," Washoe County School District Police Chief Mike Mieras said. Two students were injured, he said. One underwent surgery, and the other is "doing well," he said.
[Breaking news update at 1:58 p.m. Monday]
A 13-year-old student told the Reno Gazette Journal that a student fired a shot at a teacher at a Nevada middle school on Monday. "The student was pointing a gun at the teacher after the teacher told him to put it down, and the student fired a shot at the teacher, and the teacher fell, and everybody ran away," the student said.
[Original story, posted at 1:37 p.m. Monday]
Nevada middle school shooting: 2 killed, 2 injured
(CNN) -- Two people were killed and two were injured in a shooting at a Nevada middle school Monday, school officials said.
It was not immediately clear whether the death toll included the shooter.
Sparks Middle School, outside Reno, remains an active crime scene, school officials said in a Twitter post (https://twitter.com/WCSDTweet).
Two minors are in critical condition at Renown Regional Medical Center after the shooting, a hospital spokeswoman said.
Authorities released few details about the incident, but city officials said in a statement that the suspect was "neutralized."
"Law enforcement assures that the school and community are secured at this time," the statement said.
City officials said authorities received emergency calls from students and staff at the school about 7:15 a.m. about an active shooter on campus.
Authorities said students were being taken to a nearby high school to meet their parents. School was canceled for the day at Sparks Middle School and nearby Agnes Risley Elementary, officials said.
"I was deeply saddened to learn of the horrific shooting at Sparks Middle School this morning," Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval said in a statement. "My administration is receiving regular updates and the Nevada Highway Patrol is assisting at the scene. Kathleen and I extend our thoughts and prayers to the victims and those affected by these tragic events."

mariab
October 22nd, 2013, 08:35 PM
It was reported that this is the 13th school shooting incident since Newtown.

Ninjahedge
October 23rd, 2013, 12:06 PM
But how many were prevented because of gun ownership? Huh??!??!

BBMW
October 27th, 2013, 03:06 PM
No one will legally carry a gun in schools. The strongly tend to be legal gun free zones. Hmmm.....


But how many were prevented because of gun ownership? Huh??!??!

ZippyTheChimp
October 27th, 2013, 03:33 PM
I can legally own a gun, and carry it into a school.

I can illegally own a gun, and carry it into a school.

What does "legally" have to do with it?

BBMW
October 27th, 2013, 04:16 PM
They create "gun free zones" so people who have guns, but want to obey the law don't carry there. Obviously, anyone who wants to shoot up a school isn't going to care about violating the law. So they now have their own private shooting range, where no one is going to shoot back until the cops show up. By then it's too late.


I can legally own a gun, and carry it into a school.

I can illegally own a gun, and carry it into a school.

What does "legally" have to do with it?

ZippyTheChimp
October 27th, 2013, 05:24 PM
but want to obey the law don't carry there..We keep getting back to this.

People want to obey the law until they don't want to obey the law. Then they are no longer law-abiding.

I don't know about you, but it isn't a legally that stops me from carrying a gun into a school.

Ninjahedge
October 31st, 2013, 02:09 PM
You skirted the question BBMW. Let me rephrase it...

How many school school shootings were PREVENTED BECAUSE of legal gun ownership in that state?

Your answer says "none".

BBMW
November 1st, 2013, 02:29 AM
Even if anyone working in the schools was inclined to carry a gun, state law prevents it, and I'm sure, even if it didn't the districts have policies against it. All this make for a perfect, undefended, soft target for anyone who wants to shoot up the schools, and take out as many people as possible.

eddhead
November 1st, 2013, 01:02 PM
so the alternative, Dodge City, works for you?

Bring back the Erp boys.

ZippyTheChimp
November 1st, 2013, 01:34 PM
If you think that your school needs to be "hardened" against gun violence, then you put a trained professional in the school - a cop.

Just because someone can get a license to carry a gun doesn't mean he's qualified to know what to do in a particular situation.

lofter1
November 1st, 2013, 01:41 PM
All this make for a perfect, undefended, soft target for anyone who wants to shoot up the schools, and take out as many people as possible.

Same can be said for shopping malls, city parks, movie theaters, etc.

In each case what would be wanted is a person trained to respond, not a bunch of random gun holders.

mariab
December 14th, 2013, 08:16 AM
A recent pictured showed a smooth, snow-covered lot where the school used to stand. That must help at least a little bit, I guess.

Newtown's year: Horror, grief and tough choiceshttp://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/a6/4ca8061eff9d563b5aac0cff7942/_h353_w628_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpgAP Photo: Jessica Hill, File
A school bus drives past a lamppost decorated for the holidays, and a sign reading Welcome to Sandy Hook, in Newtown, Conn., on Dec. 4.


http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/e3/12e7ff08bf55a6d7449b766b4e23c/_h17_w0_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpg1 day ago By Michael Melia of Associated Press
It's been a painful and frenetic year for Newtown, which has experienced everything from horror to despair since one of nation's deadliest shootings took place there.
NEWTOWN, Conn. (http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?form=MSNNDL&q=Newtown, Connecticut, United States) — A year later, inside the big house on Berkshire Road, dolls fill the shelves of a living room and flowers and rainbows decorate a kitchen window, next to a little girl's name: Avielle.

Outside, all around town, Christmas lights shimmer again. But so, too, do the 26 bronze stars that sit atop the local firehouse, one for each adult and child gunned down at a school one unimaginable day.
In so many ways, this is a place frozen in time. Ribbons of green — the Sandy Hook Elementary school color — stay tied to mailboxes and storefronts, just as a curly-haired girl smiles from a framed photograph that remains atop a mantel inside Jeremy Richman's century-old home.

People might assume the hurt that accompanies tragedy fades with time. But, says Richman, who last Dec. 14 lost his only child, "I miss Avielle more every day."
It's been a painful and frenetic year, for the Richmans and for all of Newtown. From horror came despair and, soon, attempts at moving beyond one of the nation's deadliest shootings. There were the logistics of recovery to tend to and decisions about whether to raze the school where so many perished.

The Labor Day parade marched on, and as foliage turned red and yellow, small survivors filed back into school with their parents' shaky assurances they would be safe.
Now, with winter on their doorstep once again, the people of Newtown are bracing for the day everyone here simply calls 12/14.
Rel
http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/db/1a2e7317d7e38a7ae73326157cbb92/_h0_w295_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpgAP Photo: Craig Ruttle
In this photo taken Oct. 30, 2013, an art project created by Avielle Richman before her death adorns the kitchen window of her Newtown, Conn., home where she lived with her parents Jeremy Richman and Jennifer Hensel.


"For us, it's not an event. It's something we live with every single day of our lives," says Newtown First Selectman E. Patricia Llodra, who called together a panel of community leaders, mental health experts, clergy members and residents to consider what to do about the anniversary of the Sandy Hook shooting. To avoid drawing more media attention, they decided not to hold any formal remembrances.

"We can't change what happened to us," Llodra says, "but we have a choice in how we respond."
And so they will do what they've done for a year: balance trying to remember with wanting to forget, and help one another cope with seasons' worth of grief few outsiders can fathom.

Gallery: Remembering the victims of the Newtown shooting (http://news.msn.com/us/remembering-the-victims-of-the-newtown-shooting-limited?ocid=msnnws)
Gallery: Reflecting on the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary (http://news.msn.com/us/reflecting-on-the-tragedy-at-sandy-hook-elementary?ocid=msnnws)
___
On a frigid December night, only hours after Adam Lanza carried out his rampage, Llodra stood before a church overflowing with stunned townspeople. As some outside sang "Silent Night," she took the podium to address those gathered inside for a candlelight vigil.

"It will be in my head forever to look out at their faces and see how much they were wounded," she says.
From that day, through Christmas and the long winter, the families and the town endured immense grief, beginning with an unrelenting procession of funerals, as they grappled with the toll of the tragedy — 20 first-grade children and six educators gunned down in minutes by a troubled and socially isolated young man with a semi-automatic rifle.

Among the clergy members who counseled families that night in the Sandy Hook firehouse was Monsignor Robert Weiss, pastor of the St. Rose of Lima church, who tears up as he remembers the brother of a young victim asking whom he would play with since his sister had been killed.

http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/a4/b5665ed89911dd3274e15a963a8846/_h0_w295_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpgAP Photo: Jessica Hill
In this Nov. 13, 2013 photo, Monsignor Robert Weiss sits in a pew at St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic Church in Newtown, Conn.


Father Bob, as he is known in town, presided over the funerals for eight of the children. But his lowest moment came two days after the shooting, when he had to ask worshippers to leave halfway through a Mass because of a call from someone threatening to finish the job Lanza started.
"That's the moment that changed me," he says. "I mean, what is safe for us anymore?"

Llodra, a 71-year-old former high school teacher and grandmother, had been Newtown's top elected official for three years. She felt despondent herself, but she told the crowd at the vigil to put one foot in front of the other, and she steeled herself not to give in to emotion. She drew on lessons from the loss of her own child, a 44-year-old daughter who had died three years earlier, and the advice of officials from Littleton and Aurora, Colo., and Blacksburg, Va., who called to talk over how they had dealt with their own mass shootings.

She learned from them that there is no handbook, no one way to lead a town through tragedy.
"I used all of their advice in one way or another," she says. "It was to try to find a way to try not to get overwhelmed. It was to find a way to arm yourself with strength, because the emotional impacts are going to be huge."
Richman and his wife, Jennifer, were barely functional. And yet as they gathered with friends who offered support, an idea emerged on the day of 6-year-old Avielle's funeral for a way to channel their grief and try to prevent other such tragedies — a foundation to support research into the brain pathologies behind violence.

Other victims' families began pursuing their own advocacy projects, trying to create a legacy other than loss. Some immersed themselves in the push for new gun laws. Another group worked to find ways to make the country's schools safer. Still others tried to occupy themselves with charity work in memory of their loved ones.

For the Richmans, the chores of applying for the appropriate tax status and setting up a website for the Avielle Foundation became welcome distractions. Eventually, on Feb. 1, Richman returned to his research job at a pharmaceutical company. He still wasn't in a good place, but he had bills to pay. He assured his co-workers he wanted to talk about his daughter, and hear about their children, too. But it was clear to his colleagues that Richman was elsewhere.
"If I'm leading a meeting and I'm talking and suddenly I'm somewhere else, they'll pause and say, 'Hey man, come on back.' And I'll come back," he recalls.
___
Spring brought some of the first steps toward reimagined lives, including a meeting to decide what to do with the school building.
About 25 chairs had been set out for the public at the May gathering, but more than three times that number of parents, teachers and others crowded in. While some argued that knocking down the school would be giving up too much to the gunman, teachers pleaded to not have to return to the site. A father said he wouldn't want his son going to school where his sister was slain.

http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/72/bdc25c8f6a6eb8810d9f95758b83/_h0_w295_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpgAP Photo: File
Avielle Richman, center, with her parents Jennifer Hensel and Jeremy Richman in Boston in April 2012. Avielle was among the 20 children killed in the Dec. 14, 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Conn.


A week later, a task force decided the building would be razed. Says Llodra, whose own three children attended the school in the 1970s, "It always was a school that was a happy place."
Work settled into more familiar routines for officials such as Newtown Police Chief Michael Kehoe, who worked seven days a week for months as his department helped watch over a town on edge. But his officers were still recovering, too. Those who responded to the shooting were shattered by what they saw and needed time off.

"You kind of always want to answer the question 'why,' and there's not a lot of answers," Kehoe says. "But you have to work through that to understand that it's not because of you it happened, and you're not responsible for it and that you did the best that you could. And now you have many more responsibilities — to be resilient, to heal and recover."
For Richman, the spring brought bittersweet progress as he announced an advisory board for his foundation. An invitation to a White House event on mental health led to a meeting with President Barack Obama. Then the bombings at the Boston Marathon in April set him back by bringing up memories of the massacre.

He found some solace in running, working out in his shed and surrounding himself with friends, including other parents who lost their children at Sandy Hook. They began gathering occasionally on weekends to watch sports, and to remember.
"We have a lot of discussions, and that's the best therapy — talking to different people ... about life and joy and how to enjoy life," he says. "We visit with Avie's friends and see how they're growing. That brings a lot of joy."
___
In October, as the leaves turned, fences with no-trespassing signs went up and work began on tearing Sandy Hook down. Within weeks, the school was rubble.
Some victims' parents joined a commission to begin considering ideas for a permanent memorial as the town focused more on trying to move forward.

http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/b9/83d0c4d7908296385c68c844faf8d/_h0_w295_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpgAP Photo: Jessica Hill
In this July 31, 2013 photo, Newtown, Conn. First Selectman Patricia Llodra, left, talks to Gov. Dannel P. Malloy during his tour of the business district of Sandy Hook to discuss economic recovery after the December elementary school shooting that killed 20 students and six adults.


Halloween displays went up as usual, but Weiss, the priest, was glad to see the themes were happy and less macabre than in years past. Still, the costumes and monsters made it a difficult time for some children, and Weiss counseled some for whom the nightmares returned.
The children who survived the attack still struggled to cope with the horrors they witnessed. Many even now cannot sleep unless they are in their parents' beds, and others won't go outside without holding somebody's hand. At Weiss' parochial school, there has been more emotion and more physical aggression.
Nobody in town can escape the stress, he says. Even everyday greetings have taken on a new meaning.

"When they look at me and say, 'How are you,' I know what they are asking," he says. "They are asking something much deeper than how are you feeling. They are asking about everything that's going on here."
One late October afternoon found Richman at home, with his dog stretched out at his feet, delivering a lecture by webcast from a front room filled with his foundation's paperwork. As he addressed his audience, he discussed the levels of violence in America and the efforts of his foundation.
He touched briefly on the loss of his daughter, but had to wipe a tear away only once, when he said tomorrow's innovators will be the ones who today are playing in sandboxes.
___
Three days before Thanksgiving, investigators released their final report about what happened inside Sandy Hook. It shed no new light on the gunman's motives but dredged up the horrors of that awful December day. And a little more than a week before the one-year anniversary, the 911 calls made that morning were released.
Many victims' families are planning to be out of town on 12/14. Richman says he and his wife will be somewhere with friends.
"We just want to be thinking of Avielle and where she would have been at 7 instead of at 6," he says, "and hopefully what we can do to prevent somebody else from feeling that sadness."

Christmastime has returned to Newtown and, along Main Street, families have been putting a single electric candle in each front window of the mostly Colonial houses. On side streets, elaborate displays of colored lights twinkle. Wreaths are going up in businesses, and every evening more trees can be spotted in shops and homes.
A few days before the anniversary of the day that scarred them, townspeople plan to gather in a park at the foot of Main Street for the annual tree lighting ceremony. The event, to which hundreds of candle luminaries lead the way, is usually both fun and solemn, and surely will be again this year.
As always, a big crowd is expected as Newtown, in its way, takes another step forward.

Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Pat Eaton-Robb, Dave Collins and John Christoffersen in Newtown

http://news.msn.com/us/newtowns-year-horror-grief-and-tough-choices