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Binky Bainbridge
April 8th, 2013, 09:05 AM
Ex-Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher dies, aged 87

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66802000/jpg/_66802416_66802411.jpg Baroness Thatcher was the first woman to be UK prime minister, winning three elections
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155#story_continues_1) Baroness Thatcher 1925-2013 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067257)



Reaction to Thatcher death Live (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22066982)
Obituary (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10364876)
A life in pictures (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10879520)
Margaret Thatcher in quotes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10377842)


Former Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher has died "peacefully" at the age of 87 after suffering a stroke, her family has announced.
Successor David Cameron called her a "great Briton" and the Queen spoke of her sadness at the death.
Lady Thatcher was Conservative prime minister from 1979 to 1990. She was the first woman to hold the role.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155

IrishInNYC
April 8th, 2013, 09:08 AM
Ding dong, the witch is dead.

Binky Bainbridge
April 8th, 2013, 11:01 AM
Ding dong, the witch is dead.

Britain's best and most formidable Prime Minister since Churchill. Your crass comment just underlines your stupidity.

IrishInNYC
April 8th, 2013, 11:34 AM
Britain's best and most formidable Prime Minister since Churchill. Your crass comment just underlines your stupidity.

You mean conservative Prime Minister I assume. Few would argue that either were as good as Attlee.

As for the crass comment, I'm not going to be drawn into an argument over the virtues (or lack thereof) of Thatcher. As a "Catholic" growing up under practical martial law in Northern Ireland during her reign, my opinion of her will clearly be much different than most people. Her allowing one of her own MP's to die while on hunger strike will never be anything less than a fact. The 'Poll Tax' riots that ushered her out the door are more than a slight blemish also.

infoshare
April 8th, 2013, 02:22 PM
Britain's best and most formidable Prime Minister since Churchill. Your crass comment just underlines your stupidity.

Most 'formidable' is a fair enough statement; but, 'best' for who is the question. She was undoubtably "formidable" to all - but the 'worst' to many.

My understanding (admittedly little) is that Margaret Thatcher was a classic upper crust elitist who had little sympathy -or understanding of- for the working class, and unemployed of the UK - a real "let them eat cake" character like her mirror image Marie Antoinette of an earlier age in Europe.

If she were in charge today she would have made the final public spending cuts necessary to put a final end the NHS health service: something, by the way, I believe is now a real possibility under current conservative party leader.

She was big spending cuts, privatizing, breaking union contracts and just pulling back on as much of the social welfare system as politically possible.

All life if precious, and I have sympathies regarding her loss; and for the loss her friends and family are now enduring: but her political legacy is best put to rest.

Binky Bainbridge
April 8th, 2013, 02:57 PM
Most 'formidable' is a fair enough statement; but, 'best' for who is the question. She was undoubtably "formidable" to all - but the 'worst' to many.

My understanding (admittedly little) is that Margaret Thatcher was a classic upper crust elitist who had little sympathy -or understanding of- for the working class, and unemployed of the UK - a real "let them eat cake" character like her mirror image Marie Antoinette of an earlier age in Europe.

Her father ran a small corner grocery shop, she came from a very modest background and everything she gained she did so through her own efforts and determination.


If she were in charge today she would have made the final public spending cuts necessary to put a final end the NHS health service: something, by the way, I believe is now a real possibility under current conservative party leader.
Welfare accounts for one of the biggest budget items in the UK and has grown at an unsustainable level, particularly during the Labour government years. The Welfare State started off as a safety net for those in real need and has now become a dependency cushion for millions of people who feel that they can/should live off the State. Your comment about the Conservatives is incorrect, the Conservatives have ring-fenced the NHS budget but is trying to make its bloated bureaucracy more efficient, a measure that is long overdue.


She was big spending cuts, privatizing, breaking union contracts and just pulling back on as much of the social welfare system as politically possible.
When Maggie became Prime Minister she inherited a country that was almost ungovernable. The previous Labour government had allowed the powerful Union bosses to dictate to them over beer & sandwiches at no.10 Downing Street. Garbage was piled up in the streets uncollected, dead bodies could not be buried, the economy was collapsing, there was chaos in society. To her credit Maggie had the courage to stand up to the bully boy unions and introduce long overdue reforms. The dead hand of socialism was replaced by a fresh invigorating entrepreneurial spirit that unleashed the pent-up frustrations of those who wanted to get on in life. People could buy their council houses instead of forever being a council tenant, people could start businesses, and the big old inefficient State-owned industries were privatised.

lofter1
April 8th, 2013, 03:00 PM
She wasn't at all from the "upper class" ...

Margaret Thatcher dies: from grocer's daughter to MP

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/8075964/Margaret-Thatcher-dies-from-grocers-daughter-to-MP.html)

Margaret Thatcher's journey from Grantham grocer’s daughter to 10 Downing Street was not quite without parallel — her predecessor, Ted Heath, started from if anything more humble origins — but her achievement over 11 years once she reached the highest office left most of her fellow prime ministers way behind ...

*****

The Grocer's Daughter

REVIEW: THE PATH TO POWER
By Margaret Thatcher.

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/03/28/specials/mortimer-thatcher.html)
July 9, 1995

I often think it's comical
How nature always does contrive
That every boy and every gal,
That's born into the world alive,
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative.

So wrote W. S. Gilbert, and Margaret Thatcher tells us in "The Path to Power" that as a child she was fond of the Gilbert and Sullivan operas. Perhaps we don't choose our political beliefs; perhaps they come from the ways and views of our parents, the circumstances of our birth and first impressions. The young Thatcher was clearly born to be a Conservative. The corner shop in provincial Grantham was kept shiningly efficient by her adored father, who managed to acquire other shops and become the local mayor, leading a life devoted to Methodism, success in business and self-improvement. The advantage of this childhood was that it gave the budding Conservative the strength to impose the values of the corner shop on the politics of a nation. The disadvantage was that it made her quite unable to understand, or even tolerate, those whose aims, ideals and ambitions were entirely different.

The childhood chapters form the most revealing and best-written section of this hefty book. Provincial England in the 1930's is evoked touchingly, as is the pride in the mahogany spice drawers with burnished brass handles, the tall lacquered tea canisters of the "specialist grocers," the holidays at the seaside with visits to concert parties at the end of the pier, the pretty girl reading Kipling and Ella Wheeler Wilcox and working hard enough to end up in Oxford. We don't, it is true, hear too much about the mother, who years later was left out of Margaret Thatcher's "Who's Who" entry, although she did tell David Frost, in a recent television interview, that her mother kept the house marvelously clean and the book reveals that she made the children's clothes. Lady Thatcher's sister, Muriel, is also a passing shadow. But her father, Alfred Roberts, is there in all his glory, playing bowls, being a pillar of the Rotary Club (Hitler was condemned early because he "crushed the Rotary in Germany"), standing for the council, going to church, avoiding drink until he became mayor, when he allowed himself an occasional cherry brandy ...

Binky Bainbridge
April 8th, 2013, 03:10 PM
You mean conservative Prime Minister I assume. Few would argue that either were as good as Attlee.
No, I don't mean Conservative, I mean Prime Minister, full stop, although I wouldn't argue against including Attlee with both Churchill and Thatcher in terms of the contributions thay made to Britain.


As a "Catholic" growing up under practical martial law in Northern Ireland during her reign, my opinion of her will clearly be much different than most people. Her allowing one of her own MP's to die while on hunger strike will never be anything less than a fact. The 'Poll Tax' riots that ushered her out the door are more than a slight blemish also.
... and the IRA blowing up the Grand Hotel in Brighton in an attempt to murder the British government? Murdering Lord Mountbatten? Car bombing Airey Neave? We could go on and on ..... but what's the point? I too was a "Catholic" with strong connections to the Republican south of Ireland but it in no way detracts from my admiration for Maggie and what she did. It's my belief that the Community Charge (labelled the "poll tax" by the Left in an attempt to politicise it) was/is fairer than the current council tax in many respects.

mariab
April 8th, 2013, 03:46 PM
If you only set out to be liked, you'd be willing to compromise on anything.

Margaret Thatcher
(paraphrasing)

infoshare
April 8th, 2013, 03:57 PM
Good quote: here is another one: also irrefutably true.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money," she once said,

Binky Bainbridge
April 9th, 2013, 04:35 AM
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money," she once said,
:)

Another quote: "Europe was created by history. America was created by philosphy."

lofter1
April 9th, 2013, 09:28 AM
Good quote: here is another one: also irrefutably true.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money," she once said,

Also applies to any number of schemes now used by the big money guys in the USA (aka Wall Street Bail Out)

eddhead
April 9th, 2013, 09:36 AM
Lofter, just substitute the words "Wall Street" for socialism, and I think we get the drift.

ZippyTheChimp
April 9th, 2013, 10:58 AM
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/news_and_politics/obit/2013/04/130408_OBIT_thatchcard.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-large.jpg

Binky Bainbridge
April 9th, 2013, 01:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv5t6rC6yvg

IrishInNYC
April 9th, 2013, 02:14 PM
Suddenly I feel like watching V for Vendetta again.

IrishInNYC
April 9th, 2013, 02:26 PM
An interesting piece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Weatherill) of information regarding Bernard Weatherill, the speaker of the house in the video above...he directly played a huge, yet unknown role in British politics.

"It has recently been revealed that in 1979, Weatherill played a critical role in the defeat of the Labour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK)) government in the vote of confidence. As the vote loomed, Labour's deputy Chief Whip, Walter Harrison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Harrison) approached Weatherill to enforce the convention and "gentleman's agreement" that if a sick MP from the Government could not vote, an MP from the Opposition would abstain to compensate. The Labour MP Alfred Broughton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Broughton) was on his deathbed and could not vote, meaning the Government would probably lose by one vote. Weatherill said that the convention had never been intended for such a critical vote that literally meant the life or death of the Government and it would be impossible to find a Conservative MP who would agree to abstain. However, after a moment's reflection, he offered that he himself would abstain, because he felt it would be dishonourable to break his word with Harrison. Walter Harrison was so impressed by Weatherill's offer - which would have effectively ended his political career - that he released Weatherill from his obligation and so the Government fell by one vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_vote_of_no_confidence_in_the_government_of_Ja mes_Callaghan) on the agreement of gentlemen."

Despite my opinion of the Thatcher and the time she was in office, I still find that story quite remarkable.

lofter1
April 9th, 2013, 03:33 PM
A final send off to the Lady (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/for-some-no-tears-lost-for-thatchers-death/), long planned for the next Saturday after her passin (http://www.myspace.com/thatcher1981/photos/1223114#%7B%22ImageId%22%3A4130890%7D)g at various locales, including:

In Red Hook this Saturday, at Rocky Sullivan's (http://www.rockysullivansredhook.com/).

ZippyTheChimp
April 9th, 2013, 04:23 PM
And why in the name of all that's holy would a place called Rocky Sullivan's be giving Thatcher a sendoff?

ZippyTheChimp
April 9th, 2013, 04:25 PM
Pardon me, I only looked at the last link. Now I get it.

IrishInNYC
April 12th, 2013, 08:37 AM
Called it.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/img/1_0_2/cream/hi/news/news-blocks.gif (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/)ENTERTAINMENT & ARTS

12 April 2013 Last updated at 08:35 ETMargaret Thatcher Wizard of Oz track sparks chart debate

Opinions are divided over whether a song at the centre of an anti-Margaret Thatcher campaign should be played on this week's Official Chart Show.
Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead could chart inside the top five on Sunday.
MP John Whittingdale said "it would be better" not to play it, while DJ Paul Gambaccini insisted: "It's not something to editorialise about."
A Radio 1 spokesman said a decision would be made "when the final chart positions were clear".
"This is an attempt to manipulate the charts by people trying to make a political point," Mr Whittingdale, who is chairman of the Culture, Media and Sport select committee, told the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307989/Ding-Dong-The-Witch-Is-Dead-Music-producer-defends-mocking-Margaret-Thatcher-witch-song.html)
"Most people find that offensive and deeply insensitive."

Writing in the Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopmusic/9986928/Ding-Dong-The-Witch-Is-Dead-why-the-BBC-shouldnt-play-it.html), music critic Neil McCormick opined that "there is no reason for the BBC to risk upsetting many listeners just to satisfy a few troublemakers".
The paper also quoted former Conservative Party chairman Lord McAlpine, who said he was "absolutely astounded (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9988527/BBC-chief-refuses-to-ban-Margaret-Thatcher-death-song.html)" the corporation was "even considering playing it".
But Conservative MP Philip Davies said: 'It's a chart programme so if it's top of the charts they have to play it. It's not for the BBC to define on what basis something is in the charts."
'Programme of record'A number of media experts have told the BBC the Wizard of Oz track should be played, particularly if it charts inside the Top 10.
They include Trevor Dann, the BBC's former head of music entertainment, who said he could not see "any reason" why it should not be played.
"The chart is almost like a news programme; it's a programme of record," he said.
"It's not for the BBC to judge if it's an appropriate record for people to buy and therefore for them to play."

His position was echoed by radio consultant Johnn Myers, who felt it should be played provided there was no reference to the campaign surrounding it.
"If you set up a chart show to play the nation's most purchased or downloaded songs, that's what you have to play," said Mr Myers, a former chief executive of the Radio Academy.
"You don't have to say why people have bought it, but you do have to play it."
Journalist and DJ Paul Gambaccini has expressed a similar opinion, telling BBC WM (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wm) that the programme was "not a programme of choice".
"The Top 40 is the news of music," he went on. "It's not something to editorialise about - it's just fact. You can't change reality."
"I feel utterly sorry for all the chart shows," added Vivienne Pattison of Mediawatch UK (http://www.mediawatchuk.org.uk/), a group that campaigns for family values in the media.
"It's put them in a really invidious position.
"But chart shows exist to play the most bought or downloaded songs, and to change that is to interfere with a democratic process."
The track is also number one in the Capital Chart's Big Top 40. Earlier this week, its sponsor Vodafone said: "We simply sponsor the chart itself, we don't pass comment on the tracks it contains."
Asked to comment on the subject earlier this week by BBC staff, the corporation's new director general Tony Hall said he found the campaign "pretty tasteless".
"But let's see," he continued. "If there's an editorial reason for saying it's number one, or it's the fastest riser, this week, we'll have to rethink."
Greg Dyke, a former director general of the BBC, said Lady Thatcher herself would have found the idea of not playing the track "ridiculous".
"If they don't play it they are making a political statement," he told Newsbeat's Chi Chi Izundu.

The original track was performed in the 1939 Judy Garland film by characters celebrating the demise of the much-hated Wicked Witch of the East.
Opponents of Margaret Thatcher have been buying copies of the song following the former Prime Minister's death on Monday at the age of 87.
According to the Official Charts Company, Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead is currently on course to claim the number three (http://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/duke-dumont-trailed-by-pink-and-ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead-in-race-to-number-1-2159/) placing in Sunday's countdown.
In 1977 the BBC refused to play God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols when it charted during the Queen's Silver Jubilee celebrations.

ZippyTheChimp
April 15th, 2013, 11:35 AM
Her sister, the Wicked Witch of the West, was played by another Maggie, Margaret Hamilton.

nick-taylor
April 17th, 2013, 09:08 AM
Bit late to the discussion, but context in all of these topics is paramount.

Prior to Thatcher, Britain was rather alien by modern standards; a truly broken mess, the 'sick man of Europe' and veering towards self-destruction. The irony of course is that the militant union action which led to the Winter of Discontent under a Labour administration (bankrolled by the unions) led to Thatcher’s election.

Some points:


The previous Callaghan government had to embarrassingly go to the IMF for a loan to keep Britain afloat.
A majority of the economy was in state hands (car manufacturing, steel, logistics, ports, telecoms, airlines, utilities, etc...) haemorrhaging capital, making products nobody wanted and grossly uncompetitive.
Small businesses were crushed by red tape; competition and choice was unheard of.
If you were brought up in a one-industry town, you had little alternative but to go into that industry, regardless of your intelligence or ambitions in life.
GDP per capita was amongst the lowest in Europe (hence the ‘sick man’ label of the era), and continuing to decline relative to other European nations.
Governments were held to ransom and brought down by unions and their frankly staggering and uneconomical demands (e.g. 20% wage increase for steel workers).
Wildcat and illegal strikes brought the country to a halt for no apparent reason, whilst absenteeism was rife.
Energy blackouts became such a common occurrence, it led to the three-day working week to conserve electricity.
Journalists were banned from using computers due to the stranglehold of the print unions.
Investment in new technologies and equipment was limited due to the excessive cost to vandal-proof equipment.
The top rate of income tax was an eye-watering 83% (98% on investment income), even the basic rate of tax for those on the lowest incomes was above a third (it is now zero).
Rubbish went uncollected, and bodies were left unburied (people were faced with digging their own relatives' graves or seal the corpse in a special plastic bag).


There are also some misconceptions; Thatcher is attributed as destroying coal mining, but coal mines and employment had peaked prior to WW1 and previous Labour administrations under Callaghan and Wilson saw more pit closures and redundancies than Thatcher. Manufacturing also expanded under Thatcher and overall prospects increased for the majority of the population; you no longer needed to follow your father and his father into the pits or furnaces.

Thatcher also wasn’t looking to privatise the NHS (or even the railways – which are currently semi-privatised), and was cautious on the emerging threat from climate change. Most interesting of all is that despite 13 years of Labour under Tony Blair & Gordon Brown; none of Thatcher’s actions were undone.

In summary, Thatcher was akin the medicine – it was unpleasant and not always agreeable, but it saved your life. Her legacy led to the re-emergence of the UK as a credible nation, a fairer and more transparent nation, and one fully integrated into the global economy with improved outcomes for the majority of the population.

infoshare
April 17th, 2013, 04:42 PM
Bit late to the discussion, but context in all of these topics is paramount.

Prior to Thatcher, Britain was rather alien by modern standards; a truly broken mess, the 'sick man of Europe' and veering towards self-destruction. The irony of course is that the militant union action which led to the Winter of Discontent under a Labour administration (bankrolled by the unions) led to Thatcher’s election.

Some points:

[LIST]
The previous Callaghan government had to embarrassingly go to the IMF for a loan to keep Britain afloat.
A majority of the economy was in state hands (car manufacturing, steel, logistics, ports, telecoms, airlines, utilities, etc...) haemorrhaging capital, making products nobody wanted and grossly uncompetitive.
Small businesses were crushed by red tape; competition and choice was unheard of.
If you were brought up in a one-industry town, you had little alternative but to go into that industry, regardless of your intelligence or ambitions in life.
GDP per capita was amongst the lowest in Europe (hence the ‘sick man’ label of the era), and ........

In summary, Thatcher was akin the medicine – it was unpleasant and not always agreeable, but it saved your life. Her legacy led to the re-emergence of the UK as a credible nation, a fairer and more transparent nation, and one fully integrated into the global economy with improved outcomes for the majority of the population.

Well done ; and very much an unassailable defense of her time as PM. Looking back at my derogatory post about MThatcher
I am truly humbled; seems my knee jerk critism (like most other here lol) was emotional, unintelligent and mostly ill informed.

Bravo for the brilliant post: I am not above being set straight on the 'facts' - maybe the Iron Lady wasn't all THAT bad after all.

nick-taylor
April 18th, 2013, 07:40 AM
No problem infoshare, she wasn’t a saint but I can’t imagine where the UK would be now if she hadn’t materialised. London certainly would be nowhere near what it is today without her efforts and subsequent legacy.

The funeral and procession were pretty good yesterday with tens of thousands lining the procession route (despite it being a working day), and millions more watching on TV.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67057000/jpg/_67057694_67057693.jpg
Image sourced from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-22179697