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Fabrizio
March 28th, 2010, 05:59 PM
How do you guys feel about the current crop of ponycars?


IMHO the Mustang looks ok. I have not seen a Camaro or Challenger in the flesh yet but from the photos, the Camaro looks ridiculously cartoonish.

The original 64 Mustang and 67 Camaro were perfectly proportioned cars with smooth styling: note Loters first photo up above. They were classy looking and could be driven by people with taste.

With the new versions Ford and GM missed a big opportunity by taking their inspiration not from the originals but from the late 60's-early70's "hairy" big block racing-striped versions and they look goofy IMHO.

I'd be embarrased to drive one.

The car today that shares some of the styling spirit of the original Mustang is the BMW Series 3: it's small, has a long hood, short deck, it's clean and elegant.

Even the BMW Series 1 convertible also carries on the mid 60's pony car look I think moreso than the current Mustang, Camaro and Challenger:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/axle_load_distribution.jpg

lofter1
March 28th, 2010, 06:21 PM
I guess the days of a long hood are over.

I'm not crazy for the flange along side at the bottom of the BMW. A bit coke bottle-ish.

The Mercedes has one, too ...

http://www.cubiccapacity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2011-mercedes-benz-cls.jpg

Fabrizio
March 28th, 2010, 07:03 PM
The Series 3 has a long hood for it's size, The stubbier Series1 shown above would probably be more Falcon than Mustang as far as styling goes but I'm trying to get across that the original mid 60's pony cars were sober and classy small cars... and I find that in those BMWs. The original Mustand ads, the first ones that were published for it's debut, featured a woman in an evening gown...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/must.jpg

ZippyTheChimp
March 28th, 2010, 08:40 PM
All three of theses marques were muscle cars, driving cars.

Regardless of what Ford thought it was bringing to market in 1964, the popularity of the Mustang wasn't styling elegance. They became locked with GM and Chrysler for the young, mostly male, customer, and marketing was centered around performance. The styling reflected how you felt in driving the cars.

Can't say how young people would react to the present models, but I can see the connection, the appeal. The originals were different from their contemporaries, and the new ones should also have their own identities. They shouldn't take styling cues from a BMW. I drive one, and while I think it's a superior car, the experience isn't the same as driving a Camaro.

I think the Mustang and Camaro have successfully taken styling cues from the originals and integrated them into modern packages. The Challenger seems to be too retro; it looks like the original, which means old. Even its interior, the most spartan of the three, evokes the original.*

*1960s US performance cars, except for the Corvette, had basic interiors.

kz1000ps
March 28th, 2010, 10:22 PM
1. Dodge Challenger 6.1 Hemi
2. Camaro
3. Mustang GT

I'm finding I agree with this list when I judge these cars' styling based on how muscle car-ish they are, but when I compare them to all vehicles on the road, the order is reversed.

The Challenger's design is a much too literal take on the old one with zero imagination put into the mix, while the Camaro's sleek original lines have been injected with Botox-like exaggerations, resulting in a caricature that, while perfect for Transformers, is too over-the-top for my admittedly conservative tastes (helloooooo, DB9).

The Mustang is the only one that isn't desperately trying to be cool, and for that it comes off as classy as well as sporty (doesn't look silly next to an M3). It's just a shame Ford chooses to go the retro route with the live rear axle.

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 04:19 AM
The original Mustang took it's styling cues from a formula Ford developed in the 50's with the original Thunderbird, then the Continental Mark II and the 61 Linclon.... long hood, short deck, slab sides, wide C pillar. It was a very elegantly styled group of cars.



Regardless of what Ford thought it was bringing to market in 1964, the popularity of the Mustang wasn't styling elegance. They became locked with GM and Chrysler for the young, mostly male, customer, and marketing was centered around performance. The styling reflected how you felt in driving the cars.

Sales of that original model: "Original sales forecasts projected less than 100,000 units for the first year. This mark was surpassed in three months from rollout. Another 318,000 would be sold during the model year (a record) and in its first eighteen months, more than one million Mustangs were built."

Certainly the car had the pony car market to it's self but those figures are stunning.

It could only sell in those numbers because the car was able to appeal to a broad range of buyers, not just young men... Mustang appealed to everyone from the young secretary, to the young guy who wanted performance, to the older professional. The young guy could always buy a version with stripes and scoops... the older person could have a vinyl roof ... the basic car could change it's personally depending on the model and options but the basic model especially from the 64 through the 1968 model year was elegant and classy.

Sales began to slide as competition arrived and the newness wore off but as the decade wore on it got bloated and odd looking. And it went for the red-neck boy-racer crowd. It lost the original concept and it's broad appeal of which I think it's classy styling played a major part.

"Mustangs grew larger and heavier with each model year until, in response to the 1971-1973 models, fans of the original 1964 design wrote to Ford urging a return to its size and concept."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang

To me the current Mustang looks more like those later bloated boy-racer versions than the elegant original car that was the sales smash.

----

I do agree with kz1000ps however it's the best styled of the current crop.

The Camaro: IMHO this is just so wrong headed. Bloated, swollen, comically "aggressive" looking. No style, no refinement. To me it's the same sort of lame "bad ass" Gangsta look the Chysler 300 has. It will appeal to some, but I think it keeps a lot of potential buyers away.

I wouldn't be caught dead in this:

http://carsroute.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/2011-Camaro-Convertible-1.jpg

---

The classy '67. It's styling has more of the refined spirit of today's European cars than the infantile new version :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/4039006085_edf4fcf903.jpg

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 05:38 AM
Bill Mitchell and his mid-60's-GM-styling is alive and well and living in Europe:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/audi_a5_s_09.jpg

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 08:08 AM
Have you ever driven cars?

Lofter and Bob know what I'm talking about.

Ninjahedge
March 29th, 2010, 08:24 AM
While preferring not to be caught dead in anything, I do not think the Camarro is all THAT bad. Having grown up in the 80's, it does not match the....ethnic vibe it had in that day in suburban NJ....

This one, however, has its own faults. The cluster of lights seem unbalanced being shoved to the far corners of an oddly shaped kinked front grill. The interior steering wheel has an off balance look in an effore to maybe give a better gage view?

The stereo looks like something you got at a "look at me I have neon subwoofers" shop in Secaucus. Too much color and plastic.

But the outside lines look much better, much beefier and less MJ Leather Jackety than the ones I mentioned earlier.....

I have not seen too much of the Camaro, so I cannot comment...


BTW, any formal PR or informal questioning about the solid rear axle on the Mustang? You would think that something as basic as that would not be overlooked in this day and age.

What, if any, is the advantage of this feature? Durability? :confused:

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 08:28 AM
Have you ever driven cars?

(Oh brother...)

I am taking issue with the car's styling. Car styling. Reread my posts.

kz1000ps knows what I'm talking about.

Ninjahedge
March 29th, 2010, 08:30 AM
So are you guys arguing with each other over something you are not really disagreeing about?

Maybe you are BOTH right?

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 08:37 AM
Ninj: "that ethnic vibe it had in that day in suburban NJ".... "MJ Leather Jackety look" is a perfect way to describe it... personally I still see that.

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 08:43 AM
I am taking issue with the car's styling. Car styling.I thought we were talking about the appeal of these three models in the marketplace. If the intent is pure styling, then they should design from scratch, and not burden themselves with the marques.

These are niche cars, and making them look like a BMW would be a mistake.

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 08:52 AM
Do you understand how you confuse an issue?

Kp asked: "How do you guys feel about the current crop of ponycars?"

And I wrote how I feel about the current crop of ponycars. I wrote about the cars styling. Not about their "driving experience".

Also if you read correctly I did not say to make them look like BMW's ... I simply make the following observation:

"The car today that shares some of the styling spirit of the original Mustang is the BMW Series 3: it's small, has a long hood, short deck, it's clean and elegant.

Even the BMW Series 1 convertible also carries on the mid 60's pony car look I think moreso than the current Mustang, Camaro and Challenger".

Personally I think they lost an opportunity by not going back to their original classy elegant style... which could be modified by sportier models (the stripes scoops etc.)

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 09:06 AM
Do you understand how you confuse an issue?Ditto.


Kp asked: "How do you guys feel about the current crop of ponycars?"I think I did the same thing.


And I wrote how I feel about the current crop of ponycars. I wrote about the cars styling. Not about their "driving experience".So "how I feel about the current drop of ponycars" can only address what YOU were talking about?


Also if you read correctly I did not say to make them look like BMW's No, I did. I also mentioned that since I've driven both, the (visceral) experience is different.

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 09:15 AM
Ok. Got it.

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 09:17 AM
BTW, any formal PR or informal questioning about the solid rear axle on the Mustang? You would think that something as basic as that would not be overlooked in this day and age.

What, if any, is the advantage of this feature? Durability? :confused:Cost cutting.

In the 60s, although specialty road-race models were produced, the ponycars were identified with drag strips, straight line performance. Solid read axles are more durable in this regard, better able to transfer huge amounts of power to the wheels without breaking.

If the Mustang model continues, I'd expect IRC in the next update.

Ninjahedge
March 29th, 2010, 10:04 AM
Strange you said that Zip. I was thinking that the only problems you would have with solid rear would be corner chatter/skiffing or traction problems in certain terrain, although solid axle would possibly do better in snowy conditions (not like a regular differential that just let one wheel spin freely...).

Drag strip racing doesn't require any need for turning..... (makes sense).

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 10:47 AM
Strange you said that Zip.Not sure exactly what you're referring to.

I didn't mention negatives, but true that transitional handling and uneven roads are a problem for solid axles.

For snow, any setup needs a limited slip differential. Solid axles can have both, but I would think the Mustang standard is LSD.

Cornering in snow is more a problem with a solid axle. A characteristic of the suspension is throttle-induced-oversteer, getting the rear to slide out in a turn. Exciting, but requires skill.

Ninjahedge
March 29th, 2010, 11:22 AM
Not sure exactly what you're referring to.[quote]

Nah, it was just that I was thinking something similar, that a solid axle is not suited for anything but strait driving, then you mention that it was gunning for the drag strip......

[quote]For snow, any setup needs a limited slip differential. Solid axles can have both, but I would think the Mustang standard is LSD.

Isn't an LSD something that only works for:

1. The powered wheels
2. Individually rotating wheels.

If the two drive wheels on rear were both rotating on the same solid axle, you could not reallyhave a diff, could you?


Cornering in snow is more a problem with a solid axle. A characteristic of the suspension is throttle-induced-oversteer, getting the rear to slide out in a turn. Exciting, but requires skill.

The slide?

As for snow handling, I was kind of thinking of the way it worked in bad conditions at more....cautious speeds.

Isn't this also how the original Jeeps were designed? Was it a sold all-wheel uniform rotation, or did they have a combo of LSD and solid axle?

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Isn't an LSD something that only works for:

1. The powered wheels
2. Individually rotating wheels.

If the two drive wheels on rear were both rotating on the same solid axle, you could not reallyhave a diff, could you?"Solid axle" really only describes the suspension - the two wheels don't act independently; the entire housing (differential, half-shafts, wheels) float as a solid unit. But there's still a differential inside.

Cars need a differential because they turn, and the wheels rotate at different speeds. The simplest is an open differential. It distributes torque equally to the two wheels, regardless of traction. An LSD will deliver more torque to the wheel with the most traction. GM used to call this Positraction.


Isn't this also how the original Jeeps were designed? Was it a sold all-wheel uniform rotation, or did they have a combo of LSD and solid axle?Off road, differentials aren't needed at all. The locking differential locks both output pinions together, essentially creating one shaft that turns both wheels equally (locks out the differential). The scrubbing caused by the unequal distance of wheel travel in a turn is eliminated by the loose dirt and mud. Locking the differential increases traction.

Drive this way on a highway, and you'll quickly need new rear tires.

kz1000ps
March 29th, 2010, 04:38 PM
2011 Mustang GT interior:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/03/44mustanggtfd2011.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/03/50amustanggtfd2011.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/03/46mustanggtfd2011.jpg

Base model's interior:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/03/43fordmustangv6fd2011.jpg

2010 Chevy Camaro:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/03/025_2010camaro_fd.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/03/035_2010camaro_fd.jpg

2009 Dodge Challenger RT:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/12/28_09challengerrt_garage.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/09challengersrt86sreview_33.jpg

All photos courtesy of Autoblog (www.autoblog.com)

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 04:51 PM
Oh my.... no comparison.

The Challenger is so awfull... does anyone remember the Horizon?

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 05:31 PM
I've sat behind the wheel in all three. As I said earlier, the Challenger is the most retro, but not in a good way. Very cheap looking.

The Mustang has done the best job (with the dash) of linking the 60s look to a modern interior.

The Camaro has the console gauge cluster from the past, but that's not really a good place for gauges. Missed the mark with the rectangular speedo/tach pods.

lofter1
March 29th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Of the three I like that the Challenger (http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/review-2009-dodge-challenger-srt8-6-speed/#4) maintains the classic muscle car proportions (http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/review-2009-dodge-challenger-srt8-6-speed/#8) to a better degree.

But I'm not buying, so it matters little.

Fabrizio
March 29th, 2010, 06:03 PM
The original seen here without hood scoops... without racing stripes... without air dam... I think it's a thousand times classier looking this way.

Notice they say "It's a whole line of cars" One was even with a 6. And they talk about back seat room. The original was not just marketed to young men with high testosterone.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/dodge_challenger_ad_71.jpg


(please refrain from saying that I want the new Challenger to be available with a roomy back seat and an economy engine.... please? I'm only trying to make a point.... oh never mind...)


----

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2010, 06:43 PM
Challenger wasn't much of a success. The "whole new line of cars" lasted four years.

It was too late to compete with the Mustang and Camaro, which were already in trouble due to the mandated fuel economy and sky rocketing insurance rates of the 70s. The ponycars lost their performance edge and testosterone-laden marketing target.

What filled the void was a rather new concept, the sports sedan, basically pioneered by BMW. They always called their cars Driving Machines. That's where driving enthusiasts went.

The modern sports sedans have the performance to make them cool to young people. Back in the 60s, not many teenagers wanted a four door sedan; it was the family car. All performance cars were two-door - ponycars, GTOs, Chevelles, 442s, Chargers.

kz1000ps
March 29th, 2010, 07:09 PM
A big problem I have with the new Challenger is that it attempts to recreate the "long, low, wide" proportions of postwar Detroit without fully getting there. It gets the long and low parts right, but not wide, even though it is a wide (75") car.

http://www.drivearabia.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/2009-dodge-challenger-srt-8.jpg

versus

http://www.4wheelz.net/virtual/images/dodge/1970_dodge_challenger02_bd60_im.jpg

The old one has that low-slung sleekness that says "don't f*** with me." The new one looks comparatively upright and geriatric.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/9503576+w750/112_0804_02z+2008_dodge_challenger_SRT8+rear_view. jpg

http://www.schryver.us/vehicles/1970dodge/70rear.jpg

Fabrizio
March 30th, 2010, 04:05 AM
Donald N. Frey, Designer of the Mustang, Dies at 86
By DOUGLAS MARTIN
Published: March 28, 2010


Donald N. Frey, the engineer who spearheaded the design and development of the Mustang, the spunky, stylish, affordably priced “pony car” that the Ford Motor Company rolled out in the mid-1960s in one of the most successful car introductions in automotive history, died March 5 in Evanston, Ill., where he lived. He was 86.

Though much of the Mustang was borrowed from other Ford vehicles, including a Falcon chassis, the car developed an identity all its own for a younger generation in search of new looks and experiences. It was designed to appeal to both men and women, had a dash of elegance copied from European sports cars, and featured a galloping steed in the middle of its grille that buyers thought was, well, really cool.

Steve McQueen was almost upstaged by the souped-up Mustang he drove in the movie “Bullitt.”

Mr. Frey and his team created the car — from approval by top management to the showroom — in just 18 months, and expectations were modest when it was introduced on April 17, 1964, at the New York World’s Fair. Ford figured it would sell 80,000 Mustangs in its first year. It sold more than a million in its first two years.

Mr. Frey (pronounced fry) would go on to other achievements. He was chairman and chief executive of the Bell & Howell Company, recipient of the National Medal of Technology and a member of the executive board of the World Bank. He was proudest, he said, of helping to introduce safety improvements like disc brakes and radial tires to Ford cars.

But to automotive cognoscenti and just plain car lovers, the Mustang was his defining accomplishment. At gatherings of Mustang enthusiasts, Mr. Frey was often besieged by autograph hunters in the manner of a rock star.

As Ford’s assistant general manager and chief engineer, Mr. Frey worked closely on the Mustang project with Lee A. Iacocca, then general manager of the Ford division. Mr. Frey is credited with coming up with the initial Mustang prototype, a mid-engine two-seater roadster unveiled in 1962. He later led all design and engineering work. (Other designers, led by Joe Oros, later added back seats and other features.)

Mr. Frey pursued the project even though Henry Ford II, the president of the company, had turned it down four times, partly because Ford’s new Edsel had just failed so spectacularly. Lacking an official go-ahead, Mr. Frey met with Mr. Iacocca and other engineers and designers in a motel at night and in a storage room by day.

“The whole project was bootlegged,” Mr. Frey told USA Today in 2004. “There was no official approval of this thing. We had to do it on a shoestring.”

When Mr. Ford finally approved the project, he looked directly at Mr. Frey and told him in several unprintable words that he would be fired if the Mustang was not successful, according to Mr. Frey, who recounted the episode in 2004 in an interview with Northwestern, the alumni magazine of Northwestern University, where Mr. Frey taught engineering for 20 years, until 2008.

When Ford promoted Mr. Frey to vice president of North American vehicle product development in 1967, Time magazine called him “Detroit’s sharpest idea man.”

In his book “Mustang: An American Classic” (2009), Mike Mueller quotes Mr. Frey as saying the inspiration for the Mustang came from watching Chevrolet’s successful strategy for improving sales of the compact car Corvair. “I guess in desperation they put bucket seats in the thing, called it the Monza, and it started to sell,” Mr. Frey said.

But he told Northwestern that the spark had come from his children. “Dad, your cars stink,” he remembered them saying at the dinner table. “There’s no pizzazz.”

In addition to his son Christopher, Mr. Frey is survived by his fourth wife, Kay Everly, from whom he was separated; another son, Donald Jr.; three daughters, Margaret Walton, Catherine McNair and Elizabeth Sullivan; a brother, Stuart, who was also a top executive at Ford; nine grandchildren; and six great-grandchildren.

Donald Nelson Frey was born on March 13, 1923, in St. Louis and grew up in Waterloo, Iowa, where his father was chief metallurgist for a John Deere plant. He attended Michigan State University for two years, then left to serve in the Army in World War II. After his discharge, he earned bachelor’s, master’s and doctoral degrees in metallurgy from the University of Michigan.

He stayed to teach at Michigan but later left to manage Ford’s metallurgy department in its laboratory, hoping to acquire real-world engineering experience, as he told The New York Times in 1965.

Mr. Frey left Ford in 1968 to become president of the General Cable Corporation. In the 1970s and ’80s he was chairman of Bell & Howell. He divested it of less profitable operations like mail-handling equipment and nurtured its profitable videotape division.

Meanwhile, the Mustang gained weight and horsepower before being downsized just in time for the 1970s spike in gas prices. In 1979 it got bigger again and then went through yet more redesigns. Its popularity oscillated, too, but the original boom was never equaled.

At his death Mr. Frey owned an original Mustang, his son Christopher said, adding that he liked to drive it fast.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/29/us/29frey.html?hpw

Fabrizio
March 30th, 2010, 05:03 AM
A big problem I have with the new Challenger is that it attempts to recreate the "long, low, wide" proportions of postwar Detroit without fully getting there. It gets the long and low parts right, but not wide, even though it is a wide (75") car.

^ That and for me the big problem with the Challenger and the Camaro is the high belt-line. It gives them an armored car look with those small side windows. It ruins the lightness the originals had. It makes them look tough and macho. In other words: just a little bit silly.

lofter1
March 30th, 2010, 12:50 PM
Is the higher / chunkier deck on these new models all about additional trunk space or is there another reason(s)?

kz1000ps
March 30th, 2010, 02:56 PM
Fashion.

Call it the Chrysler 300 effect.

kz1000ps
July 24th, 2010, 03:19 PM
So recently I got up and close with a Lincoln Mark V, and it made me go back and not only learn more about the old Mark/Continental lines, but also reevalue how I feel towards these 1970s sleds. Some of you might remember me asking what the f*** happened (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3999&p=140239&viewfull=1#post140239) to automotive design and engineering in the '70s (I wasn't alive then so I can only view them as antiquated objects), and it's a question I still struggle with, as I grew up in a time (the '90s) when reasonable sizes and curvy, aerodynamically functional shapes were the norm. But as I was looking at the 1970s Marks I believe I came to a sort of understanding with the period, in one of those so-bad-it's-good ways.

But I found I couldn't decide which one I liked more: the mid-70s Mark IV or the late-70s Mark V? The IV is more svelte and sexy, but the V is so insistent in its boxy, razor edges that I find myself saying "that's badass", even if some of the lines are a bit clunky.

So which do you prefer? Here's the Mark IV:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1214/clincoln1976mark4.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7871/clincoln1975mark4side.jpg

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2690/clincoln1972mark4front2.jpg

And the Mark V:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2629/clincoln1977mark5fr2.jpg

I think it's from the rear three-quarters where this one looks dynamite, like a vessel you would've seen in one of the original Star Wars films:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3339/clincoln1977mark5rear10.jpg

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/8104/clincoln1977mark5rear3.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2489/clincoln1977mark5side3.jpg

Say what you want about their mechanicals, reliability, ect. but I'm not rich yet so for this exercise I only care about styling.

ablarc
July 24th, 2010, 03:31 PM
Mark V by a whisker.

(Cleaner.)

Fabrizio
July 30th, 2010, 06:56 AM
kz1000ps

You know the Mark IV was produced for a few years.... the best looking was the first, the 1972. It was just before the bumper laws. Note the delicate bumpers with the unprotected grill. Maybe it was not very practical but it was much more attractive than later versions. You could also get the car with out the c-pillar window.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/mark2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/mark7.jpg

-----

Notice that while the car is the successor to the Mark III, the styling was a complete make-over. And doesn't it look suspiciously like the 1969 Pontiac Grand Prix? Note the roofline, the shape of the rear quarter windows, the way the vinyl top is placed, the lower body crease:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/mark4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/mark10.jpg

^ there is a reason for that: GM exec Semon Knudsen brought along a lot of GM styling when he switched to Ford in 1968. And you really began to see his influence with the 71/72 models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semon_Knudsen

------------

A pristine '72 would be pretty cool to own today...but by the mid 70's they were considered quite tacky... the stuff of the leisure-suit set.

Call me crazy, but for me the car of the era that came closest to the original 1942 Continental concept of the stylish close-coupled coupe, was the Citroen SM. If only the Continental had been more like this. :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/mark1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/mark6.jpg

Max Strangelove
August 14th, 2010, 04:10 PM
This is pretty nice.

http://www.panix.com/%7Ermadison/mbgullwing.jpg


Yep, this one is awesome.

KenNYC
August 19th, 2010, 09:32 AM
American cars just are, and have always been, simply awful.

Ninjahedge
August 19th, 2010, 01:30 PM
Not really. Some had style and practicality (or only one of the two).

I think they reached a point where it was no longer a status symbol to "buy American" and they lost track of new developments. they were staying with their old demographic and those land yachts became less and less cool and more phogey-ish.

Roadsters also made a debut and were doing nicely (I saw some re-fabs last year when they reserved parking on my street in Washington to show them off). Some were QUITE kitch.

I believe American Vehicles is a classic example of what happens when a company stops following innovative design ideas and starts following customer surveys and bottom lines.

lofter1
August 19th, 2010, 04:35 PM
No American car could ever match my '71 Opel Kadett.

http://images.loqu.com/photos/197/993/1971-opel-kadett.jpg

Would have preferred the '38 model ...

http://www.motorbase.com/uploads/2003/05/15/fs_opel_kadett.jpg

lofter1
October 30th, 2010, 02:15 AM
Pontiac, 84, Dies of Indifference

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/30pontiac.html?_r=1&hp)
By NICK BUNKLEY
October 29, 2010

DETROIT — Pontiac, the brand that invented the muscle car under its flamboyant engineer John Z. DeLorean, helped Burt Reynolds elude Sheriff Justice in “Smokey and the Bandit” and taught baby boomers to salivate over horsepower, but produced mostly forgettable cars for their children, will endure a lonely death on Sunday after about 40 million in sales ...

PONTIAC SLIDE SHOW (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/10/29/business/20101030-pontiac-ss.html?ref=business)

FULL ARTICLE (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/30pontiac.html?_r=1&hp)

Fabrizio
October 30th, 2010, 09:35 AM
^ ... and with even less fanfare, Mercury has been put to sleep too.

ablarc
November 2nd, 2010, 06:40 AM
Add that to Oldsmobile, Plymouth, Hummer and Saturn.

Fabrizio
November 2nd, 2010, 07:43 AM
The best Mercury of all: the 1957-1958 Turnpike Cruiser.

Ready to take on America's newly constructed turnpikes, as well as intergalactic travel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc6.jpg

----

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc1.jpg

"More advanced features found only on the Turnpike Cruiser...and as standard equipment! The Monitor Control Panel is driver-planned for maximum convenience. There's a new Tachometer that measures engine revolutions and provides a quick check on engine efficiency...an Average Speed Computer Clock to report your average speed at any point on a trip. A new full-vision safety steering wheel with recessed hub is another exclusive feature."

-----------

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc2.jpg

"Among all cars, only the Turnpike Cruiser has this advanced ventilation system that combines roof-level air intakes (above) and a power-operated back window (below). And it's yours at no extra cost. With Breezeway Ventilation - greatest improvement in car ventilation in automotive history - air is brought in through supplementary roof-level air intakes and flows out through the retractable, power-operated back window. You enjoy the refreshing comfort of a continuous flow of gentle air."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc4.jpg

ablarc
November 2nd, 2010, 08:53 AM
The Turnpike Cruiser was quite an about-face from the clean lines of 52-56.

Fabrizio
November 2nd, 2010, 10:47 AM
^ 52-54 the real beauties.

The clean '53

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/0008merc.jpg

-----

But I'll take a 54 "Sun Valley" with the transparent top.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc7.jpg

ablarc
November 2nd, 2010, 11:12 AM
Was air conditioning available on the Sun Valley?

Fabrizio
November 2nd, 2010, 12:10 PM
I have no idea.

But I do find comfort in knowing that we have this to look forward to when we die:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000merc9.jpg

lofter1
February 20th, 2011, 10:25 PM
The Old Car Manual Project (http://www.tocmp.com/)

... where you'll find original car manuals for old cars and classic cars.

Also:

Old Car Brochures (http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/)

The lemon yellow 1955 Niagara Ranch Wagon (http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1955%20Meteor%20Brochure/1955%20Meteor-11.html) is too much.

Wow: 1955 Rideau Meteor (http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1955%20Meteor%20Brochure/1955%20Meteor-01.html) :D

The Rideau Sunliner Convertible (http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1955%20Meteor%20Brochure/1955%20Meteor-05.html) is even better

The seat covers (http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1955%20Meteor%20Brochure/1955%20Meteor-18.html) were offered in many styles

lofter1
February 20th, 2011, 10:28 PM
For Fabrizio ...

http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1956%20Dodge%20%20Brochure-French/1956%20Dodge%20Brochure-CdnFren-p02of11.jpg

http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1956%20Dodge%20%20Brochure-French/1956%20Dodge%20Brochure-CdnFren-p01of11.jpg

lofter1
February 20th, 2011, 10:33 PM
This 1954 Kaiser convertible is pretty dreamy ...

12310

Fabrizio
February 21st, 2011, 02:28 AM
^ That thing BTW had sliding doors.
----

Somewhere in So.Jersey there is an attic with boxes of old car brochures collected by me and my brothers when we were kids. What I couldn't get at the local dealerships I would write away for. A rep at Checker even called me, tracking down our number from the address. He was disappointed to hear I was 10 years old.

Fabrizio
February 21st, 2011, 06:23 AM
For Fabrizio ...

http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1956%20Dodge%20%20Brochure-French/1956%20Dodge%20Brochure-CdnFren-p02of11.jpg

And where did you dig this up? It's a scene from my film "Joy Ride" starring me, Clint Walker, Guy Madison, Hugh O'Brian and Jeff Chandler...

This is the famous scene at the end of the film where I decide to take matters into my own hands and direct traffic for myself.

Kris
April 28th, 2011, 12:55 PM
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5263/5654175892_4c768407bf_b.jpg
All rights reserved by Le Galapiat (http://www.flickr.com/photos/galapiafargo/)

Lancia Flaminia Pininfarina

Fabrizio
April 29th, 2011, 08:09 AM
^ Soooo refined. You want to wear a handmade suit to be driving that.

Along the same timeless ultra-chic lines.... the 1958 Ferrari 250 GT:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/1958-Ferrari-250-GT-Coupe-Silver-st.jpg

lofter1
April 29th, 2011, 04:53 PM
This little wine-fueled (http://www.insideline.com/aston-martin/db6/vintage-car-prince-charless-aston-martin-db6-fueled-by-wine.html) 1970 Aston Martin DB6 Volante in Seychelles Blue seen making the rounds earlier today is pretty sweet (it belongs to Dad (http://www.insideline.com/aston-martin/db6/prince-william-drives-aston-martin-db6-away-from-royal-wedding.html)) ...

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2011/specials/royal-wedding/moments/prince-william-8-660.jpg

Also looks good in British Racing Green with a hard top (http://motortorque.askaprice.com/news/auto-0807/prince-charles-aston-martin-db6-runs-on-wine.asp) ...

http://motortorque.askaprice.com/images/features/428-288/Prince-Charles-Aston-Martin-DB6-runs-on-wine-19096.jpg

The State Bentley (http://www.theroyalpurveyors.com/transport/) in Royal Claret that got the Princes to the church on time isn't so bad either ...

http://images.smh.com.au/2011/04/29/2334126/william-4-600x400.jpg

http://transportationnation.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Bentley_State_Limousine.jpg

Fabrizio
April 29th, 2011, 05:35 PM
Classic British, German and Italian automobile design. All very different and all very great. Each of them really reflects something of their country.

---

I caught a bit of the wedding over lunch at a locale were they had a TV going.

I was dying... the style... it was overwhelming.

Fabrizio
April 29th, 2011, 06:28 PM
Lancia Flaminia, Ferrari 250... and then there was GM's version of that button down look:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/ad_buick_riviera_gs_gold_1965.jpg

lofter1
April 29th, 2011, 08:20 PM
Retractable headlight covers are the coolest.

Fabrizio
April 30th, 2011, 02:23 AM
The advertising of American automobiles during the years 1965-1966...even if it was a Ford Galaxie... they were using high fashion... glamourous women... men that looked like Sean Connery. Bond was big. Buick's whole campaign for '65 had the cars on white backgrounds, set at an angle. There's a POP art feel to them.

These ads would have been created in 1964. What a time for design... the Beatles had arrived, the Mods, Pop art, James Bond.

I've never seen Mad Men... but if I had to set an exciting time for advertising it would be the mid-60's.

And when you look at these ads, you just know they were not the result of consumer surveys and control groups... these were advertising guys with balls doing what they thought was best. The result is artistic and cultured.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/B5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/b4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/b2.jpg

lofter1
April 30th, 2011, 12:43 PM
What a difference a decade makes ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJjihEGfAlQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXrik24aLvQ

lofter1
April 30th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Then they got really snazzy ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTAVWYfSnE

lofter1
April 30th, 2011, 12:44 PM
When our Fabio first fell in love ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq4V1xpZ6VU

Fabrizio
April 30th, 2011, 02:43 PM
I do have Latin grace and fire ...and a dash of Yankee practically.

But seat 6 beautifully?

Well let's just say, I try my best.

lofter1
April 30th, 2011, 02:59 PM
:D ^

Try as you might it's still a tight fit.

Daquan13
April 30th, 2011, 08:01 PM
Not to mention being way too small, since it only seats two people! Get in an accident with it, and chances are that you may end up dead!!

kz1000ps
November 16th, 2011, 01:37 AM
Saw one of these in the flesh not too long ago...

It is now a dream car of mine.

http://www.gotbroken.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/2010-Aston-Martin-Rapide-Front-Side-Top-Picture.jpg

mariab
November 16th, 2011, 01:37 PM
WHere's the pic? It's red-x'd out.

lofter1
November 16th, 2011, 01:50 PM
If it's a new Jag then I'm with you.

http://www.jaguar2012-details.info/images/2012-jaguar-convertible-2.jpg

Fabrizio
November 16th, 2011, 02:14 PM
^ Oh... no denying that's certainly nice... but Kz1000, you were trying to post this, weren't you? (the new 458):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjrrtKkpSIo

kz1000ps
November 16th, 2011, 08:31 PM
^ The same day I saw my newest dream car I also saw my very first 458 in screaming yellow.....LA you are a car fanatic's dream! Anyway my fav new ride is this, the Aston Martin Rapide:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4493/rapidev.jpg

Just as sexy as their coupes.

kz1000ps
November 16th, 2011, 08:34 PM
Or how about the new M5?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWLp1biJ1fI

Fabrizio
November 17th, 2011, 07:12 AM
From a purely styling standpoint: my problem with the Aston and the Jag is that modern standards of safety and comfort have given them a thick, heavy look.

Ferrari manages to disguise that. Their cars still look taut and mechanical.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/Ferrari458Italiarenderufficiali_7-1.jpg

Note the slim A pillars (the thickness is hidden behind glass), the thin lip of metal at the headlights, how the car's skin seems to be just barely pulled over the wheels. And compare those delicate looking spokes to the others.

Very finely tailored. That stuff makes me crazy.

lofter1
November 17th, 2011, 11:13 AM
What's the clearance on that Ferrari? Too darned low riding for my tastes. But I'd gladly go for a ride.

kz1000ps
November 17th, 2011, 11:52 PM
From a purely styling standpoint: my problem with the Aston and the Jag is that modern standards of safety and comfort have given them a thick, heavy look.

While I agree with you, I also don't mind the idea of a British vehicle looking a bit meatier. And especially with my beloved Aston saloon, I think voluptuous would describe it best--plump, but curvy in all the right places.

Still, those Euro NCAP pedestrian laws have really butchered a lot of cars' noses.

lofter1
December 16th, 2011, 10:42 PM
This might be somebody's dream, but not mine ...

How vulgar! £1 million 24-carat gold Rolls-Royce is unveiled
(but who on earth would want to buy it?)

DAILY MAIL (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075064/How-vulgar--1-million-24-carat-gold-Rolls-Royce-unveiled.html)
By CRAIG MACKENZIE
16th December 2011

The Rolls-Royce has always had a history of elegance and class - until now.

That prestigious reputation has been smashed by the world's most vulgar makeover of the company's iconic Ghost model. An Italian fashion design house has created a gold-covered monstrosity costing more than £1 million.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/16/article-0-0F32AB1200000578-961_634x286.jpg
Driving offence: The classless 24-carat gold makeover of the iconic Rolls-Royce Ghost model

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/16/article-0-0F32AB2E00000578-969_634x383.jpg
Gold spray job: An Italian fashion house has described their model as a 'true masterpiece'

The Fenice Milano 'Diva' has been spray painted in 24-carat gold and the company is so proud of it they have described the model as a 'true.masterpiece.'
It is fitted with the same 6-litre twin-turbocharged engine of the Ghost, giving the saloon more than 560bhp and a top speed of 155mph.

Fenice Milano believes their Rolls-Royce is a 'synonym for class, elegance and style'. many would disagree.

The interior has biscuit leather and 24-carat gold throughout. The standard Ghost costs £220,000 but the Diva is now for sale at £1.05million.

FENICE MILANO website (http://www.fenicemilano.com/HP.html)

Their "La Dolce Vita" Fiat 500 (http://www.fenicemilano.com/LADOLCEVITA.html) is cute, too -- but given the "general enhancements" it would have to be locked in a vault:




14549

VID HERE (http://www.fenicemilano.com/500IPAD.html) (showing the iPad installed on the dash)

The general enhancements of interiors and exteriors include in detail:

• front and rear fender molding in 24K gold
• side pillars in 24K gold
• decorations and logos in 24K gold
• sill mouldings in 24K gold
• headlights in 24K gold and custom rear lights
• exterior mirrors in 24K gold
• door handles in 24K gold
• 17’’ custom wheels in 24K gold
• exhaust pipe terminal in 24K gold
• electrical convertible top with gold finishes


Back to the Rolls ...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/16/article-0-0F32AB3C00000578-313_634x378.jpg
Luxury: Biscuit-coloured leather seats with 24-carat trimmings. The car is on sale for £1.05 million

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/16/article-2075064-05D05EE4000005DC-220_634x334.jpg
Elegance: The original and iconic Rolls-Royal Ghost model which sells for £220,000

Phillip Brooks, a Rolls-Royce historian, described the car as 'bizarre' but also 'spectacular'.

He said: "I think what Fenice is doing with the Ghost is quite interesting. It's certainly a case of gilding the lily, but the gilding job looks pretty good.

'My personal taste doesn't run to something like a Diva, but I think it would be great fun to show up in one. All in all, perhaps a slightly bizarre car, but a very neat one.'

Ninjahedge
December 19th, 2011, 02:17 PM
Looks like something The Donald would love....http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3347/3608679190_c5d7ee8cd8_b.jpg

Bingo
December 19th, 2011, 11:07 PM
Not a car, but I wish I had the balls to try this out. Maybe 20 years ago I would've of.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNVslA7T2q8&feature=player_embedded

lofter1
January 20th, 2012, 08:46 PM
What's coming from VW?

INTERGALACTIC INVITE (http://web.vw.com/star-wars-invite/)

A look into The Bark Side ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ntDYjS0Y3w

kz1000ps
January 21st, 2012, 04:02 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/16/article-0-0F32AB1200000578-961_634x286.jpg

That velvety brown is stunning. Ditch the wheels and gold trim, and let that gorgeous two-tone paint job shine through!

mariab
May 11th, 2012, 11:05 PM
May not be internationally famous, but in the realm of American muscle cars, a legend. Respect must be paid.

Carroll Shelby Dies at 89
Racer, car builder, team owner and entrepreneur was one of the car world's last living legends.


By Exhaust Notes (http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/blogfilter.aspx?author=xb9fa66b65893d6020a03c48b59 4df5d362a824c75fc55acb) 6 hours ago

http://media-social.s-msn.com/images/blogs/00100065-0000-0000-0000-000000000000_00000065-06d9-0000-0000-000000000000_20120511203847_Carroll%20Shelby.jpgAu tomotive legend Carroll Shelby, perhaps best known for creating the Shelby Cobra during an expansive and successful career as a race-car driver, automaker, team owner and entrepreneur, died Thursday night at Baylor Hospital, in Dallas. He was 89.

As a race-car driver, the high-performance legend won the 24 Hours of Le Mans for Aston Martin (http://autos.msn.com/browse/Aston%20Martin.aspx?ICID=FAC) in 1959 with co-driver Roy Salvadori. Shelby also won U.S. sports-car championship titles with Ferrari (http://autos.msn.com/browse/Ferrari.aspx?ICID=FAC) and Maserati (http://autos.msn.com/browse/Maserati.aspx?ICID=FAC) and raced in Formula 1 for two seasons.

In the 1960s, Shelby created the iconic Shelby Cobra, which dominated the racetracks of the era and defeated Ferrari for the world manufacturer's title. Shelby went on to lend his name and tuning expertise to existing models, most notably the Ford Mustang (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/overview.aspx?year=2013&make=Ford&model=Mustang) with the Shelby GT350 Mustang -- a modern version of which, the 650-horsepower V8-powered Shelby GT500 Mustang (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2013&make=Ford&model=Shelby%20GT500&trimid=-1), exists in the Ford (http://autos.msn.com/browse/Ford.aspx?ICID=FAC) stables to this day. During his longstanding association with the Blue Oval, Shelby also presided over the Ford team's incredible Le Mans wins in 1966 and '67. According to Autoweek, "Shelby is believed to be the only person to win Le Mans as a driver (with Aston Martin), a manufacturer (class victory with the Cobra Daytona coupe) and team owner (Ford's GTs)."

http://media-social.s-msn.com/images/blogs/00100065-0000-0000-0000-000000000000_00000065-06d9-0000-0000-000000000000_20120511203941_Shelby%20Cobra%20Condo n.jpgThe man's accomplishments and technical achievements with companies such as Shelby American and Shelby Automobiles, as well as with educational and charitable foundations such as the Carroll Shelby School of Automotive Technology at the Northeast Texas Community College and the Carroll Shelby Heart Fund (now Carroll Shelby Foundation), tell the story of a charismatic risk-taker and envelope-pusher -- a man for whom "faster" was a challenge, a directive and a lifelong mission.

http://media-social.s-msn.com/images/blogs/00100065-0000-0000-0000-000000000000_00000065-06d9-0000-0000-000000000000_20120511204033_Shelby%20Super%20Snake %20Large.jpgCarroll Hall Shelby was born Jan. 11, 1923, in Leesburg, Texas. He is survived by Cleo Shelby, his wife; sister Anne Shelby Ellison; daughter Sharon Levine and sons Michael and Patrick Shelby. You can find out more about the Carroll Shelby foundation here (http://www.carrollshelbyfoundation.com/).

http://media-social.s-msn.com/images/blogs/00100065-0000-0000-0000-000000000000_00000065-06d9-0000-0000-000000000000_20120511204106_Carroll%20Shelby%20Lar ge.jpg

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=2254305d-8241-4cff-a487-b6521de9f19d?icid=autos_2782

lofter1
February 12th, 2014, 11:18 PM
Corvette lovers might not want to watch this ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IukDWhf7U9I

Sinkhole Beneath National Corvette Museum Devours 8 Cars

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/13/automobiles/sinkhole-beneath-national-corvette-museum-devours-8-cars.html)

A huge sinkhole opened up early Wednesday at the National Corvette Museum in Bowling Green, Ky., swallowing eight rare and notable versions of the Chevrolet sports car.

Alerted to the collapse by motion sensors (http://corvettemuseum.org/enews/backups/media/sinkhole.htm) in a structure called the Skydome, which is separate from the main building, staff members arrived at the museum to find that a sinkhole had formed at 5:39 a.m., collapsing the floor and ingesting eight of the cars on display. The fire department cordoned off the building, and a structural engineer was called in to determine the extent of the damage.

The sinkhole was estimated to be 40 feet across and nearly 30 feet deep. The Skydome structure did not have a basement.

Museum officials said that other than its floor, the Skydome was undamaged, but that the condition of the cars that fell into the pit had not been determined. Six of the cars belong to the museum, but two – a 1993 ZR-1 Spyder and a 2009 ZR1 “Blue Devil” – are on loan from General Motors ....

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/02/13/automobiles/vette-sinkhole/vette-sinkhole-master675.jpg
A sinkhole at the National Corvette Museum in Bowling Green, Ky., damaged 8 vintage Corvettes. National Corvette Museum