Proposed: Atlantic Yards Development - Commercial, Residential, Retail, NBA Arena

[BrooklynLove]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the MTA's broke and the city has major budget issues.

This guy must have the biggest pair in human history. They must hang down pretty low as well.

money not had doesn't equal money spent when the money not had wouldn't have been had if it was not had. think about it.

[lofter1]

(Otherwise, it's libel.)
So far my record is clean -- nary a conviction (not for libel, anyway).

At one point this project may have been viable. It certainly seemed to be financially viable to some of those fiscal experts who have been running things. But we know how "expert" most of them have turned out to be.

The mirror is cracked, the cards have fallen and all the kings horses and yah da dee da da, yah da dee da da ...

[lofter1]

And things aren't getting any prettier over in Ratner-land.

From today at CURBED (http://curbed.com/archives/2008/12/17/gehry_lays_off_atlantic_yards_staff_finances_suck_ even_more.php):

Gehry Lays Off Atlantic Yards Staff, Finances Suck Even More

Wednesday, December 17, 2008,
by Robert

http://curbed.com/uploads/2008_12_AY%20Question%20Mark.jpg

The news about Atlantic Yards keeps coming and none of it--not a single,
solitary shred of it--is good. Today's Wall Street Journal brings news (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122946954327912109.html) that
Frank Gehry has laid off more than two dozen architects working on
the project per orders from developer Forest City Ratner. As if that
wasn't enough to cause supporters of the project spit up their morning
Cup 'o Joe, there's more. Today's Observer wonders "How Long Until the
Project Collapses?" Now, why would someone wonder about that? Uh,
money. There's the little issue of the even bigger public subsidies that will
be required to keep the project from aspirating on its own financial
vomit. Then, there's a loan that's coming due in February. That $153
million loan from Gramercy Capital has accrued to $177 million. It's
due in early February and the developer is trying to extend the loan.

It's the Observer that really goes to town on the teetering finances of the
project, if not the entire development firm. Let's go to the copy and past
for the game highlights:
According to multiple people familiar with discussions, his
subsidiary company, Forest City Ratner, is attempting to
cobble together extra money; trying to speed up tens of
millions of dollars it is owed by public entities; delay tens of
millions in payments it owes to both the public and private
sectors; and tack on new subsidy programs for the housing
piece of the project...At a glance, Atlantic Yards would
certainly seem a prime candidate for collapse. The project had
an unusually low margin of return back in 2006—according to
state and Forest City figures from the time, at the height of
the real estate boom—as Mr. Ratner slathered on promises
and concessions in an attempt to win political support. Since,
several key assumptions changed in Mr. Ratner’s disfavor,
surely challenging the project’s financials.

For now...the question becomes how long the developer can
keep doling money out without seeing any come back in.
Forest City is awaiting what is likely the last major court
challenge to the use of eminent domain, with a decision
expected in the first half of 2009. But even if that concludes
in its favor, as many legal experts expect it will, the developer
may very well have an additional wait ahead of it. At this
point it is unclear—many would say unlikely—that in six
months to a year, investors would be willing to provide the
nearly $1 billion in bonds needed for an arena or other
financing for high-rise residential developments.

All the while, the company is signing checks. Bruce Ratner
bought the Nets in 2004 for the purpose of moving them to a
new arena at Atlantic Yards. For now, paying rent in someone
else’s arena, Forest City reported losses of more than $30
million on the Nets in the first nine months of 2008.
Yet two more entries in the loooooooooong Atlantic Yards Timeline of Despair.

· Gehry Lays Off Staff (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122946954327912109.html) [WSJ]
·: Atlantic Yards Becomes a Question Mark (http://www.observer.com/2008/real-estate/atlantic-yards-becomes-question-mark) [NYO]

[ablarc]

Candidly, lofter, that article doesn't sound like Ratner is "enriching" himself.

What's the opposite of enriching? "Enpooring"?

[lofter1]

Enriched? Well, that's somewhat relative, eh? Especially these days.

Apparently Ratner now has no cash to spend (just ask Frank Gehry (http://curbed.com/archives/2008/12/18/mr_gehry_maybe_didnt_get_paid_for_everything_by_mr _bruce.php)), but ...

How much you wanna bet that Bruce figured out a way to pay himself?

He may be a slime, but I doubt he's totally stupid.

[meesalikeu]

nah, cousin brucie does not pay himself. the money they squeeze out of the local governments they work in goes to FCE hq where sam miller still calls all the major shots. however, its a family business so dont worry, they all get paid.

us ex-clevelanders have hadituptohere our whole lives with do nothing/money sucking forest city. :mad:

btw backin 'the cleve' FCE have not only been sitting on vacant prime downtown property for years, that local politicians would never cry for emminent domain about (because the rats contibute politically), but even worse currently they have been tying up a convention center/medical mart site decision for the last few years...which is already fully paid for by a tax!! ....don't get me started on forest city, heh!!! :rolleyes:

[BrooklynLove]

This past week I had the pleasure of checking out the model lux box for the new Nets Arena. The showspace is actually set up in the NY Times building so the experience was a double whammy of new development. Pretty cool stuff.

[lofter1]

Can the model Box ^ be viewed by the plublic?

[BrooklynLove]

Best way to think of it is Barclays office space.

[BPC]

Enough already. Who's kidding whom? Even before the meltdown in the credit markets, Ratner's financing was drying up. This gig is now officially up. Ratner should sell the Nets, who can play in Newark, where a perfect brand new stadium already awaits them, and us ethe money to pay off his creditors (in part) and get out of this ridiculous project. The site should be developed for low-scale residential akin to its surroundings. There will never again be a market for that scale of development in that location. And Frank Gehry should return to designing museums and other showpieces that don't require commercial viability.

[ablarc]

^ How would such low-intensity development pay for a platform over the railyards?

[BrooklynLove]

Good luck getting an answer.

[BPC]

^ How would such low-intensity development pay for a platform over the railyards?

Well for one thing, it would cut out the fees of the Frank Gehry army, along with the cost of constructing Gehry's impossible-to-engineer, swoopy/melting-metal designs. But if it's not economically feasible any longer, then I would prefer we redirect the planned billion-dollar Ratner subsidy to the fast-approaching City budget deficit, which otherwise will be covered by tax increases of the sort that can cripple the City's economy.

I was in favor of the billion-dollar Ratner subsidy when we has going to raise billions more to develop the project, but now that the banks have wised up, the notion that the City should "speed up" its subsidy, in the hopes that Ratner will be able to honor his part of the bargain, somewhere down the line, is not one that makes much sense.

[BrooklynLove]

Define subsidy.

Question for you - Pre Ratner development, how much tax revenue is the AY site producing?

Follow on question - for how many years has the site sat w/o development? And what has the site contributed to this city in that barren state?

[antinimby]

Well for one thing, it would cut out the fees of the Frank Gehry army, along with the cost of constructing Gehry's impossible-to-engineer, swoopy/melting-metal designs.Umm...no. The swoopy/melting metal design was Beekman in Lower Manhattan. The theme here is more like toy blocks. You're confusing the two.

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/05/05/gal_atlantic-yards-3.jpg


Anyone making such loud comments should at least be more informed on the subject of discussion.

[BPC]

the thing in the middle of your shot looks like swoopy metal to me, but of course I did not intend that as a technical architectural term -- my point (which seems fairly indisputable) was that those scrapping those ridiculous designs would save a lot of money

[ablarc]

Think how much money you can save by doing nothing at all.

[BrooklynLove]

the thing in the middle of your shot looks like swoopy metal to me, but of course I did not intend that as a technical architectural term -- my point (which seems fairly indisputable) was that those scrapping those ridiculous designs would save a lot of money

You're just spewing rhetoric without any real knowledge of the facts. Typical anti-AY blabber. Move on to the next cause du jour.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Not polite that you dismiss an opposing viewpoint as blabber, and a cause du jour.

And it makes you seem like...what's the word I'm looking for? You even find them on the sidelines at Detroit Lions games.

[BrooklynLove]

Ok, fair enough. I'll tone it down.

[Alonzo-ny]

Gehry's fees are not the biggest cost here.

[Shadly]

...You even find them on the sidelines at Detroit Lions games.

Lets see, that coul be offensive coordinators looking for a new job, defensive coordinators looking for a new job, empty seats, head coaches looking for a new job, over paid athletes that aren't worth their contracts, guys that blew a lot of money on body paint this year, cheerleaders in december with razor sharp ni... that could be a range of things.

[BPC]

Think how much money you can save by doing nothing at all.

Possibly as much as we taxpayers saved by not building a domed Jets stadium on the West Side of Manhattan. As Ben Franklin would have said had he been around today, two billion dollars saved is two billion dollars earned.

[Alonzo-ny]

Maybe we shouldnt ever build anything and earn billions.

[ablarc]

^ You think?

Will it work?

In that case, I think I might just go ahead and not build a project of ... um ... say, ten billion dollars.

Briefly considered not building a project of a hundred billion, but that would make me richer than Bill Gates. Jesus says don't get too greedy.

[BrooklynLove]

Exactly. Loss avoidance is productive. Gain avoidance is not.

[BPC]

^ You think? Will it work? In that case, I think I might just go ahead and not build a project of ... um ... say, ten billion dollars. Briefly considered not building a project of a hundred billion, but that would make me richer than Bill Gates. Jesus says don't get too greedy.

On the other hand, as others have so keenly observed, we don't want to suffer a so-called "gain avoidance" by NOT building Atlantic Yards. So Ratner has a two billion dollar project for which he has no access to credit, other than tax dollars. Before we give him our billion dollars in piblic funds anyway, I have an even better idea. As it turns out, I have my own project to turn Governor's Island into a Six Flags Amusement Park, for three billion dollars (I can show you the drawings), for which I have the exact same access to private credit as Ratner, ie. none. Let's not NOT build my project too, lest we "avoid a gain" for the project I can't finance even BIGGER than the gain we would be avoiding if we did not give Ratner the one billion dollars in public funds he needs for the project that he can't finance. Fascinating logic all around, I would say.

[ablarc]

Do farmers still get paid for not growing anything?



Maybe I'll switch to farming.

[BrooklynLove]

Not building a Six Flags on Governors Island would be an example of loss avoidance.

[Stroika]

This is really unfortunate. When I lived in Prospect Heights, I think I was the only person in the neighborhood who was in favor of Atlantic Yards. But if Ratner's going to put up another jalopy like Atlantic Terminal (aka the big crappy down-market Target mall), I'd prefer the open train tracks. Especially since Ratner was able to sell this project (insofar as he sold it) by virtue of its design. Take away the innovative design, and you have a massive, taxpayer-funded fraud. It's no consolation, but I'd wager that if Ratner gets this built in cheap-o mode, it'll get Prospect Heights landmarked in no time.

(BTW, check out the photo. I've never seen any rendering of the arena that looks like that...)

The Wall Street Journal - Developer May Scale Back Plan for Nets' Brooklyn Arena

By MATTHEW FUTTERMAN (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=MATTHEW+FUTTERMAN&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

Developer Bruce Ratner is considering scaling back his ambitious plan for a $1 billion Frank Gehry-designed arena for the New Jersey Nets basketball team in downtown Brooklyn.
Mr. Gehry's design has been one of Mr. Ratner's major selling points as he has battled neighborhood residents and pressed government officials for approvals and subsidies. But now, with the recession and credit crisis in full swing, the Nets and Mr. Ratner are exploring new concepts for the arena that would transform it from an architectural masterpiece into a much less expensive and much more traditional sports venue.
A spokesman for Forest City Ratner Co., Mr. Ratner's development company and the team's controlling owner, said Thursday Mr. Gehry had not been fired. But he acknowledged financial issues had forced Mr. Ratner to consider alternatives.
"We are continuing to speak with many arena experts and working hard to find ways to build a world class venue in an incredibly difficult economic environment," the spokesman said.

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-CX736_gehry0_G_20090108200614.jpg


The price tag of other recently developed arenas has been much lower than Mr. Gehry's design. For example, The Prudential Center in Newark, New Jersey, home of the National Hockey League's Devils, cost about $400 million. It opened in 2007.
Mr. Gehry, the renowned architect of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain, and other modern masterpieces, did not return phone calls seeking comment.
Mr. Gehry's buildings, known for their curving glass and metal surfaces, involve the kind of unique elements that can greatly increase the price of a structure. The New York headquarters of the InterActive Corp (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=iaci)., which resembles a massive sailboat, has more than 1,000 unique pieces of glass.
Mr. Gehry has overseen the design of nearly every element of the planned Brooklyn arena and the proposed surrounding development, from the overall building architecture to the lighting and plumbing fixtures in the luxury suites. A final design has never been approved, but preliminary designs included massive glass atriums, and tilted levels of seats built in the fashion of a butterfly's wings.
The arena is the centerpiece of Mr. Ratner's controversial $4 billion Atlantic Yards endeavor proposed for a site above a rail yard at Flatbush and Atlantic avenues. The plan includes a billowing office tower Mr. Gehry nicknamed "Miss Brooklyn" and thousands of new apartments.
Last year, as the economic downturn set in, Mr. Ratner announced he would pursue only the arena until the market could support more residential and commercial structures. The Nets are losing more than $30 million a year playing in the Izod Center in East Rutherford, New Jersey and desperately need a new arena to increase revenues.
A spokesman for New York's Empire State Development Corp., the site manager for the project, said it had little control over the ultimate design of the arena.
"The aesthetic choices are Forest City Ratner's," said Warner Johnston, the ESDC spokesman.
Write to Matthew Futterman at matthew.futterman@wsj.com


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123145644648766063.html
(matthew.futterman@wsj.com)

[lofter1]

I understand that Ratner is now going for something like THIS (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269382&postcount=2250)

[ZippyTheChimp]

But now, with the recession and credit crisis in full swing, the Nets and Mr. Ratner are exploring new concepts for the arena

Newark...Newark...Newark.

[Stroika]

When I saw that that post office was on Atlantic Avenue, I had a moment of panic that it was in Brooklyn. It's pretty much the same aesthetic/quality of the new stuff going up on Atlantic, which, between Brooklyn Heights and Flatbush, is/was gorgeous.

[BrooklynLove]

Still many moons better than the awful MSG.

[BrooklynLove]

Newark...Newark...Newark.

More than anything this WSJ article shows that this arena is happening at AY. You can blame the scaled back design on those neighborhood "saviors" who's litigation has pushed back construction spending into tighter times.

[lofter1]

BS ^

How long would it take to build the required platform over the tracks befrore the Arena could be built?

No way that any "time frames" -- with or without law suits -- would have allowed construction on the actual Arena to begin before the financial crash.

Can't blame the crash on Anti-Ratner Brooklynites.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Still many moons better than the awful MSG.When MSG becomes the benchmark, time to move on.

[ZippyTheChimp]

BS ^

How long would it take to build the required platform over the tracks befrore the Arena could be built?And even if they had started the arena, it would still feel the pressure of the present economic conditions.

And that would create an excuse to pile on more funding - "Well, we already started, so we might as well finish it." A big reason why costs on bad projects skyrocket.

[Stroika]

My question is, does Ratner still get his tax breaks and public money? Wasn't this entire project approved on the condition that it not be another hideous concrete-box housing project? Now that it's becoming that, why should our tax dollars be put toward damning this area to 50 years of looking like an Eastern European slum and putting a long-term depressor on property values?

[ZippyTheChimp]

Public subsidies have not changed, except that Ratner wants them increased.

He already has a sweetheart deal on the arena - not unlike the MSG tax-break that we can't seem to get out of decades later.

Ratner won't own the stadium, but his rent payments will be $1.00 per year, guaranteed for 30 years with an option to extend it. The 30 year term is significant, in that 30 years is the time in which sports facilities become outdated and need renovation.

The landlord (New York State) would have to pay for those renovations. Ratner (or his heirs) could threaten to walk away.

[lofter1]

Clearer and clearer that this is one case where an exposed and undeveloped pit of tracks is better than what would have come after.

No doubt by now there are anough violations of various clauses within the AY agreement that it could be nullified (however, I'm not sure where that would leave those who were forced out -- and what liability that might bring to the City / State).

But no matter, NYC / NYS should kill this deal once and for all.

[Stroika]

Ratner won't own the stadium, but his rent payments will be $1.00 per year, guaranteed for 30 years with an option to extend it. The landlord (New York State) would have to pay for those renovations. Ratner (or his heirs) could threaten to walk away.

So Ratner is irrelevant, then. Since Barclay's is paying $400M for the naming rights, and the new stadium *just so happens* to be tagged at $400M, there's the costs of the stadium. Forest City doesn't pay for rent, or renovations. All Forest City wants to do, in fact, is cheapen the design and materials and pocket the profits without really putting down any of their own capital (since it no longer seems to exist).

If Ratner's insolvent other than his tax breaks, the state/city should seize back the land and either re-sell rights to someone who won't gyp us out of tax monies to give us a big, sour lemon, or just cut out the middle man. Take the Barclay's endorsement money, add some state money from Obama's infrastructure plan, and use the same tax and Barclay's dollars to build something that will actually boost business/desirability in this area, rather than a concrete arena built for a team nobody in Brooklyn cares about and a sea of parking lots sprinkled over an unknown number of decades with an unknown number of condos, which is what Ratner seems to be proposing now.

[Alonzo-ny]

The 400Bn figure was for the Newark arena. The platform costs money too.

[ablarc]

^ 400 million, not billion.



(Bailout figures make us giddy, I guess...)

[Alonzo-ny]

Either that or its one hell of a stadium.

[JCMAN320]

New Jersey Nets might play preseason games at Prudential Center
-- could permanent move to Newark follow?

by Dave D'Alessandro/The Star-Ledger
Monday January 12, 2009, 10:35 PM

The Nets could be headed for Newark after all.

For a short while, anyway.

Nets management has begun negotiations with Devils owner Jeffrey Vanderbeek to play three preseason games at the Prudential Center next October, according to several people with knowledge of the discussions who asked not to be identified out of concern for affecting the talks.

Nets CEO Brett Yormark would neither confirm nor deny the discussions Monday night, but he strongly implied such an arrangement could be feasible for his team.

"We're exploring many different options, continue to regionalize the franchise," Yormark said through a team spokesman. "Preseason games afford us the opportunity to do this."

Vanderbeek also didn't confirm or deny any talks with the Nets, but he said Monday night no preseason games had been scheduled for the Prudential Center.

"No, not that I know of," he said.

The discussions between Yormark and the Devils owner began at least one week ago, and whether this represents a sea change in the Nets' thinking about the viability of eventually moving to Newark -- should the Atlantic Yards project fall through -- is being discussed throughout the organization.

"That's what everyone is wondering," one high-ranking Nets official said Monday night. "With Brooklyn still up in the air, the question is whether they're warming to the idea of moving to Newark, even though it's clear that getting to Brooklyn is best for the long-term health of the franchise."

The Nets have played at Izod Center -- and its various incarnations -- since 1981, and it remains one of the most antiquated arenas in the NBA. In a recent interview, Yormark extolled the relationship his team has with the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, but reiterated that the team can never get in the black if they play in a facility with only 28 luxury suites.

More than once, however, Yormark has put the kibosh on any discussion about moving out of Izod Center before the $1 billion Barclays Center is completed, which he predicts will be sometime in 2011. (The Wall Street Journal reported last week that Nets owner Bruce Ratner is considering scaling back the Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn.)

The general feeling is that the Nets do not want to be a second tenant in someone else's building, while the Devils most likely would not be interested in sharing ownership of the Prudential Center.

But Yormark also left open the door to dipping his toe in the Newark waters simply by stating that newer is better:

"We love our relationship with the NJSEA, they partner with us in every aspect of that building -- from the lounges to the LEDs (illuminated ad boards) to everything we've done there," Yormark said. "But (Izod Center) still doesn't provide us with the resources we need, and the contemporary look and feel of some of the newer buildings."

[Alonzo-ny]

I dont see why they wouldnt want to play there until Atlantic yards is ready either.

[JCMAN320]

New Jersey Nets will not play preseason games at Prudential Center next season

by Dave D'Alessandro/The Star-Ledger
Tuesday January 13, 2009, 10:33 PM

Brett Yormark, the Nets' top executive, confirmed that he was in discussions with Devils owner Jeff Vanderbeek over possibly holding three exhibition games in the new building, but that the arrangement wouldn't be feasible.

He also stressed, as always, that such a pursuit wouldn't have signaled any change in the team's commitment to move to Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn sometime in 2011.

"I'm open and willing to consider any venue for some preseason games, if it's fiscally sound and gives me an opportunity to tap into a new consumer base -- it has nothing to do with us going to Brooklyn," Yormark said in a phone conversation from Boston.

"If that means taking us out of Izod Center, I'll consider that. However, all discussions (with the Devils) are off."

To illustrate his enthusiasm to explore the outer edges of the Nets' market -- or "regionalize the base," to use his vernacular -- Yormark admitted that he has "also been talking to Nassau (Coliseum) about some opportunities," because Long Island would be a "great feeder market" for the team's eventual home in Brooklyn.

Yormark would not discuss the financial drawbacks that submarined the discussions with Vanderbeek, but several Nets officials -- who cannot be identified, as they aren't authorized to speak for the team -- claim that a preseason game at The Rock wouldn't generate the same revenue they derive from one at Izod Center.

Vanderbeek could not be reached to comment on that assertion Tuesday night.

Moreover, the same Nets officials contend that the Devils do not have the "sales force or infrastructure" to create the necessary revenue that would appeal to the Nets.

Remarkably, a revenue boost and the opportunity to regionalize the fan base were not among Yormark's primary incentives to move the preseason games out of Izod Center in the first place, the officials confirmed.

Season-ticket holders at the antiquated arena in East Rutherford are obligated to purchase 44 games each season, including three exhibition games. Yormark wanted to shorten their commitment to 41 games -- eliminating the preseason obligation and shortening the customer's burden by roughly 5 or 10 percent, depending on where their seats are located.

In some cases, it would reduce their ticket cost by thousands of dollars.

Yormark said he'll continue to search for other preseason options to "increase the brand," but wouldn't divulge what arenas he might consider next.

The news that the Nets were considering the Prudential Center as a preseason home created widespread speculation that they were launching a trial balloon, perhaps exploring whether Newark would be a viable home if the Atlantic Yards project fell through.

Delayed repeatedly by legal challenges and financing issues, the construction of the $1 billion Barclays Center is scheduled to start sometime this year, Yormark has said, but no groundbreaking date has been set.

Since the average construction of an arena takes 30 months -- according to the estimate of Nets owner Bruce Ratner -- it will be difficult to open the 2011-12 season in Brooklyn if work doesn't begin by this May.

------------------------------------------------------------

JCMAN Note Of The Nite:
Your telling me that a successfull hockey team, that has won 3 Stanley Cups in 9 years; 1996, 2000, 2003; one of the most successfull hockey teams in the last decade, who have increased ticket sales by 30% and season ticket sales by 20%, increased their revenue, play in one of most popular and newest arena in the USA wouldn't have enough marketing force for 3 preseason games to help the Nets wallet?? Are you serious????

Seton Hall now has to cap attendence to the lower level bowl because of a surge of ticket sales and The Rock has an NBA ready locker room not being used, but no it does not have the infastructure for a basketball team; of course the Izod Center built in 1981 in marsh land with no mass transit has more state of the art infrastructure than a brand new arena built in 2008 in Downtown Newark with some of the best mass transit access in the country. You need a better arguement than that mister Yormark.

But if that isn't BS enough they are considering Nassau Mosileum, an arena smaller than the Izod Center and Prudential Center, built in 1972 - more out of date than the Izod Center, houses the Islanders - a team with some of the worst attendence in the NHL -, another arena with no mass transit; of course this makes all the sense in the world while slighting the Nets fan base. Ratner is a straight up idiot for want of a another word!!!!

[Stroika]

Looks like Markowitz no longer thinks his constituents deserve anything nice but that Ratner should be allowed to lay whatever cheap turd he wants to. That's what I call "minding the store."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2009/01/15/2009-01-15_brooklyn_borough_president_marty_markowi.html

Brooklyn Borough President Marty Markowitz: Ratchet down Yards arena
BY JOTHAM SEDERSTROM
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Wednesday, January 14th 2009, 9:55 PM

The glitzy, world-class pro basketball arena slated for the Atlantic Yards project is now likely to be merely "functional," Borough President Marty Markowitz told the Daily News Wednesday.
In his strongest language yet, Markowitz called on developer Forest City Ratner to eliminate the costly flourishes and glassy facade of the Frank Gehry-designed NBA basketball arena in the face of an economic meltdown.
"We don't have to be rocket scientists to know that the awe-inspiring arena project designed by Frank Gehry has now become ... It's just not doable," said Markowitz.
"To create an arena that's in-your-face and may become an icon of the world is just not realistic anymore."
This week, Markowitz called for cost-cutting measures to save developer Forest City Ratner's $4.2 billion project.
The estimated cost of the arena, the centerpiece of the 22-acre project planned for Prospect Heights, has ballooned to more than $900 million since it was announced in 2003.
Markowitz insisted that all 16 towers and the arena would still be built - but he added that more traditional, less costly designs would be more appropriate for the area.
"If they don't have the resources to do all the glass, maybe a brownstone feel isn't so bad," said Markowitz
He indicated that incorporating Brooklynstyle stoops at the base of some of the towers and using more traditional arena designs would better fit Brooklyn's character.
"Maybe, just maybe, the feel of the space will now be more in line with a large part of that community's ambience or style," added Markowitz, who said a less costly version of the arena could still be "gorgeous" and "functional."
The 19,000-seat arena, originally designed as an eccentric collage of twisted steel and glass, is expected to house the New Jersey Nets if the team moves to Brooklyn for the 2011-2012 basketball season, as Forest City Ratner officials have insisted.
As The News reported last week, Forest City Ratner officials have recruited "value engineers" to pinpoint ways to save money on the increasingly expensive project.
Forest City Ratner spokesman Joe DePlasco declined to comment on whether the developer would take Markowitz's advice, or on what role Gehry is now playing.
"We look forward to discussing the borough president's proposal with him and continuing to work with him and others to bring this project to fruition," said DePlasco.

[TREPYE]

...The 19,000-seat arena, originally designed as an eccentric collage of twisted steel and glass...

...As The News reported last week, Forest City Ratner officials have recruited "value engineers" to pinpoint ways to save money on the increasingly expensive project....

This looks like it is in the spirit of the diluted Beekman St. Tower.:(

I wonder which wall of the arena will be designated and "pinpointed" as the cost-cutter "flat wall".:rolleyes:

[Alonzo-ny]

Gehry should walk from this project. Its not going to have any of the design intent left at all.

[STT757]

The Nets should be with the Devils in Newark, as was originally intended until the Nets were sold to a real estate developer who wanted them just as an bargaining chip to Brooklyn politicians. The Prudential Center is brand new, and designed to house to teams. Why build another facility.

[londonlawyer]

http://curbed.com/uploads/2009_01_Markowitz%20vs%20Gehry.jpg

Marty Markowitz is the epitome of a pathetic putz. (He really needs to refrain from pastramis on rye.)

[BrooklynLove]

The Nets should be with the Devils in Newark, as was originally intended until the Nets were sold to a real estate developer who wanted them just as an bargaining chip to Brooklyn politicians. The Prudential Center is brand new, and designed to house to teams. Why build another facility.

Newark is awful. The Nets want to go somewhere that is a step up from the Meadowlands. Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.

[Alonzo-ny]

So what if all the developer wants is money from moving the team. Its much better to have a team in Brooklyn than Jersey. Much more accessible to the world.

[lofter1]

Newark is closer and easier to get to for a big chunk of the residents of NYC than is the AY area of Brooklyn.

[BrooklynLove]

Really lofter? Not by mass transit for sure.

[JCMAN320]

Brooklynlove and Alonzo-ny some info

Prudential Center, right next to Newark Penn, is ONE stop from Newark Liberty INTERNATIONAL Airport. The PATH subway, that goes from NWK throught JC and Hoboken to 33rd St and WTC, Newark LRT, the Northeast Corridor Amtrak Line, NJ transit Lines - NE Corridor, North Jersey Coast Line, Raritan Valley Line - all go through Newark Penn. It is one of the most accesible arenas by mass transit in North America!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Penn_Station
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudential_Center
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_Trans-Hudson
http://mappery.com/original-name/Newark-Light-Rail-system

------------------------------------------------------

From Wikipedia:

"The Prudential Center, built through 2006 and 2007, is the first new arena built in the New York/New Jersey metropolitan area in more than 25 years. Located only two blocks from Newark Penn Station, the building is one of the most easily accessible arenas in the country via NJ Transit, PATH, Newark Light Rail, and Amtrak through Newark's Penn Station. Highways surrounding the arena include I-280, I-78, New Jersey Turnpike, Rt. 1&9, Rt. 21, Rt. 22, and the Garden State Parkway.

The red and gray exterior is inspired by Newark's bricklaying and railroad heritage, as well as an homage to the colors of the New Jersey Devils. Fans approaching the arena from the front are presented with a view of the arena's externally mounted 4,800 square foot (446 m²) LED screen, one of the largest in the world. Along the arena's east side Mulberry Street entrance are two large "entrance cylinders" named the Verizon Tower and PNC Tower, the arena's most prominent exterior feature. The interior Grand Concourse provides views of downtown Newark on the Edison Street and Mulberry Street sides through large windows. Located next to the ticket office on the street level is the Devils' new 2,600 square foot (242 m²) Team Store. The Prudential Center features separate concourses for the lower and upper levels.

As the newest facility to be used in the NHL, the Prudential Center features a large array of amenities. The rink area features four LED ribbons and an eight-sided scoreboard equipped with high-definition video screens. The 76 luxury suites available are the largest in North America. Personal dining, WiFi and high-definition televisions are some of the many conveniences available in the luxury suites. There are 750 flat-screen televisions in total across the arena. In the lower bowl are 2,300 black Club seats in three center sections on either side of the ice. one of only two NHL arenas with a practice rink (the other being Nationwide Arena in Columbus, Ohio, home of the Columbus Blue Jackets) and the only one with dual locker rooms and practice facilities."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Good luck to the renovated MSG and Barclays Center trying to match all that, especially since the latter is being scalled back. Also New Jersey has one of the largest foriegn born populations in the country!! So to say that the Nets being in Newark would mean them being less accesible to the world is a farce!!

[BrooklynLove]

njman. multiple subway lines lead directly to the front door of the barclays center. the path or njtransit/amtrak options are a pain in the a** - i've had to use them to get to newark several times during normal commuting hours so can comment from first hand experience. and you can't realisitically cab between newark and manhattan. on paper maybe you can make the place sound convenient but in reality it is not. if it was the nets would've moved there already.

also one cannot seriously debate this subject w/o considering that newark is a hole - sorry but downtown newark is awful. whereas fort greene is blossoming.

you're just setting yourself up for more pain by holding onto this pipe dream.

[STT757]

Really lofter? Not by mass transit for sure.

Yes it is,

Penn Station Newark: (NJ Transit, Amtrak, PATH), Broad Street Station Newark: (NJ Transit), Newark Airport, NJ Turnpike I-95, I-78, Garden State Parkway Route 1 & 9, Route 22 etc..

I'm sorry but while Newark has many disadvantages, it's convenience to transportation is certainly not one of them.

Highway access to Atlantic Yards is zero point zero.

[BrooklynLove]

see above. good on paper, not in real life. i'm sure you've worked with someone like that if you need to visualize.

[lofter1]

I'm downtown Manhattan and close to a PATH station & various Express MTA stations. From here it's just as fast to get to Newark as it is to go to the AY area. And when I go to Newark I don't have to see that ugly stuff Ratner has built in BK :cool: . Did I mention that right now Newark already has an arena?

[ZippyTheChimp]

AY wins the convenience to transportation when you factor in the density of the fan base. But that doesn't mean it's a problem for Newark.

you're just setting yourself up for more pain by holding onto this pipe dream.If I were forced to put down a bet, I'd put it on the Nets not going to AY. Close, but I think it's leaning that way, and more important, so is the momentum.

[JCMAN320]

njman. multiple subway lines lead directly to the front door of the barclays center. the path or njtransit/amtrak options are a pain in the a** - i've had to use them to get to newark several times during normal commuting hours so can comment from first hand experience. and you can't realisitically cab between newark and manhattan. on paper maybe you can make the place sound convenient but in reality it is not. if it was the nets would've moved there already.

also one cannot seriously debate this subject w/o considering that newark is a hole - sorry but downtown newark is awful. whereas fort greene is blossoming.

you're just setting yourself up for more pain by holding onto this pipe dream.

Some history for you BK Love, from a real NEW JERSEY Nets, the Nets and Yankees were in a partnership from 1999-2004, that is why the Nets and Yanks are on the YES Network. The Nets had all intentions in moving to Newark full speed ahead. The Nets wanted the Yanks to assist them financially with the Newark arena, but the Yanks said no dice because they were trying to lay the groundwork for the new Yankee Stadium. So the Nets and Yanks parted ways and the Nets went up to the highest bidder. Charles Kushner, Jon Corzine, and Bruce Ratner then went into a bidding war with the result Ratner out bidding future Gov. Jon Corzine. Ratner than said instead of moving the team to Newark, which was always the teams plan till he bought them, that he was going to take them to Brooklyn as a pawn in this Atlantic Yards, future enema of BKLYN, boondoggle. So until he bought the Nets they were going full speed ahead to Newark. Thats the truth.

[Alonzo-ny]

is ONE stop from Newark Liberty INTERNATIONAL Airport.

I doubt a flight is in the normal fans trip. Im not going to read your info because A: It will be boosterism and B: because i cant read when you make so much bold and underline!!!!!!!!!

As for a NYC resident's transport to AY or Newark, its pretty obvious a subway ride with transfers is going to be much easier for the majority of fans in the city.

[ZippyTheChimp]

the Nets and Yankees were in a partnership from 1999-2004, that is why the Nets and Yanks are on the YES Network. The Nets had all intentions in moving to Newark full speed ahead. The Nets wanted the Yanks to assist them financially with the Newark arena, but the Yanks said no dice because they were trying to lay the groundwork for the new Yankee Stadium.That is only half true.

The partnership came into existence when the sale of the Yankees to Cablevision fell through in 1998. YankeeNets was formed, which in turn, created a subsidiary, Puck Holdings, which bought the Devils.

The idea was that by owning both the Nets and Devils, it would be easier to leverage a new arena in Newark.

But YankeeNets sold off both the Nets and Devils because they were a financial drain on the company, losing significant money every year. I think the Devils even lost money the two years they won the Stanley Cup.YankeeNets reorganized as Yankee Global Enterprises, with two subsidiaries - the Yankees (which owns the stadium) and the YES network, in which the Yankees own 49%.

[JCMAN320]

That part is true but it was because they were both in the Meadowlands. The Devils have seen an increase of revenue with moving to the Prudential Center.

[JCMAN320]

I doubt a flight is in the normal fans trip. Im not going to read your info because A: It will be boosterism and B: because i cant read when you make so much bold and underline!!!!!!!!!

As for a NYC resident's transport to AY or Newark, its pretty obvious a subway ride with transfers is going to be much easier for the majority of fans in the city.

That was all facts Alonzo not boosterism, it is facts, try reading it. I'll even help you. Don't be a putz.

[ZippyTheChimp]

That part is true but it was because they were both in the Meadowlands. The Devils have seen an increase of revenue with moving to the Prudential Center.It doesn't matter. What you stated is incorrect. The new stadium had nothing to do with it.

[BrooklynLove]

JCMan - 2 words that you need to get used to hearing together:

Brooklyn, Nets.

Repeat after me now.

Brooklyn Nets Brooklyn Nets Brooklyn Nets.

Acceptance is the first step to recovery.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
You're starting to sound a little worried.

[Alonzo-ny]

That was all facts Alonzo not boosterism, it is facts, try reading it. I'll even help you. Don't be a putz.

Take out the unnecessary bold and underline and I will.

[JCMAN320]

^^^I reduced it greatly. Yes Zippy the stadium did have something to do with it, that was the straw that broke the camel's back; they wanted the Yanks to kick in money for the stadium.

-----------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YankeeNets

From Wikipedia:

"Acquisition of the Devils
YankeeNets created an affiliate, Puck Holdings, which purchased the New Jersey Devils ice hockey team, to have relationships in all major league professional sports, and to give better leverage to the Nets in constructing a new arena in Newark, New Jersey.

The breakup of YankeeNets
In 2003, reports leaked that the Yankees and Nets sides of the organization were in disagreement with each other. The Yankee ownership in Tampa did not want any part in paying for an arena for the Nets and Devils, as the teams were money-losers.This led to the Nets being sold to Bruce Ratner, who intends to move the team to an arena in Brooklyn, New York and the Devils being sold to businessman Jeffrey Vanderbeek, who moved the franchise to the Prudential Center in Newark, NJ, that was originally proposed by the previous Nets ownership. Since the breakup, the Devils also extended their television contract with Cablevision, ending the speculation that they would move to YES once their initial contract expired after the 2006-07 hockey season.

The legacy of YankeeNets is the YES Network, which has allowed both teams to dramatically increase their revenues. This has allowed the Yankees to front the $800 million to construct their New Yankee Stadium."

[ZippyTheChimp]

Now you're talking about the ARENA in Newark. Nothing in your post stated that the new Yankee STADIUM had anything to do with it.

Your boldfaced it yourself:as the teams were money-losers.Where's the "straw that broke the camel's back?"

[JCMAN320]

I stated that the Yankees did not want to assist the Nets in building the new stadium in Newark. I was under the impression that was because of trying to get a new Yankee Stadium, that part then I was wrong about. I am correct however about the main issue with the Nets moving to Newark was that the Yanks did not want to assist in building a new arena in Newark and because they were money losers.

My main arguement was that the PRUDENTIAL CENTER and the Yanks not wanting to assist in the financing of it was the straw that broke the camels back, that is what I always meant!!

[ZippyTheChimp]

Never mind.

[BrooklynLove]

^
You're starting to sound a little worried.

There is way too much stuff in my worry queue for this subject to get any of my worry capacity.

[STT757]

Bring the Nets to Newark!

Shaquille O'Neal may be the man to bring New Jersey Nets to the Prudential Center
by Steve Politi/The Star-Ledger
Tuesday January 20, 2009, 8:59 PM

Could Phoenix Suns All-Star center and Newark native Shaquille O'Neal be taking aim at a future in team ownership -- and the Nets in particular?
The question nags at Shaquille O'Neal every time he visits his home city now, the same way it should nag at every basketball fan in this state. He sees the gleaming Prudential Center in the heart of a community that loves his sport, then shakes his head in wonder and frustration.

"Why," he wants to know, "aren't the Nets playing in Newark?"

On this topic, like everyone else, Shaq is stumped. The Nets should be playing in Newark, and not just for a few lousy preseason games as the team is proposing. And the 7-footer could be a major force in making them -- to borrow his favorite Scrabble word -- a Shaqtastic success.

Imagine the Nets finally giving up their Brooklyn fantasy and moving to the Rock with one of the all-time greats in uniform. Imagine Shaq, after he decides to retire, staying with the franchise as a part owner, his smiling face on billboards and his hulking frame sitting in courtside seats.

The thought has certainly occurred to O'Neal, who already is heavily involved in real estate ventures in the city and has a strong interest in getting involved in the business side of the sport.

"Yes. Yes. Yes," O'Neal said in a phone interview when asked if he wanted to get into ownership when he retired.

And if that team could be the Nets ...

"It'd be nice -- real nice," he said. "I know the area, I know the people, it's close to New York. Every organization needs two things: a great place to play and a couple of marquee players. You have that, and it's a no brainer."

So the player who can rescue the Nets for New Jersey is not LeBron James, the free agent everyone wants in 2010. As long as this team stays on this side of the Hudson River -- and few outside the organization believe they're getting to Brooklyn any more -- James is not signing here, no matter how chummy he is with part owner Jay-Z.

No, the savior already has a Superman tattoo on his chest. Shaq, whose Phoenix Suns will play the Knicks at Madison Square Garden tonight, also is a free agent in 2010. He might be nearing the end of his playing days, but his stature in the sport will never fade.

In Newark, he is more than a basketball player. He is a landowner and entrepreneur who is committed to rebuilding the city. He is part owner of a planned 25-story upscale condo building near NJPAC and understands how the presence of an NBA team would help that investment, too.

Shaq is the type of charismatic figure who could attract money from others, the perfect ambassador for a team that, for too much of its existence, has struggled to captivate this market.

So can Newark make him part of keeping the Nets here? That can only start once the team gives up on Brooklyn, a project that seems less likely each day. Nets CEO Brett Yormark still insists that the team will be playing in Brooklyn in 2011 with a groundbreaking expected this spring, but virtually all the news is bad.

The latest reports have the team scaling back its $1 billion design for the arena and possibly breaking ties with world-famous architect Frank Gehry, the man who made the project appealing in the first place. The Nets insist Gehry is still on board, and said in a statement that they are "working hard to find ways to build a world-class venue in an incredibly difficult economic environment."

The economy also figures to get worse before it gets better in 2009. Owner Bruce Ratner is a rich man, but stock in his Forest City Enterprises, which is saddled with heavy debt, is down sharply. Even he has to run out of patience losing $35 million a year at Izod Center.

"The best thing to do is wait and let it take care of itself," said Sen. Richard Codey (D-Essex), the state senate president. "With Brooklyn looking like Dorothy from Kansas, they'll have to make a financial decision soon."

That decision should be Newark -- it just makes too much sense. As a kid growing up in the city, O'Neal had to take train trips with his father to the Garden if he wanted to see an NBA game. He never could have never imagined an arena sitting in the center of downtown.

Who could then? But last November, the night before the Suns played the Nets at the Meadowlands, Shaq attended a Devils game at the Rock and got the grand tour from Devils owner Jeff Vanderbeek.

"I heard they were billing it as the No. 1 arena in the world, so I wanted to see for myself -- and I agree," O'Neal said, talking on a cell phone as he rode on the Suns team bus. "The place is great."

He said he told Vanderbeek that night that, if he needed anything at all for the arena, he was prepared to help. You can bet that Vanderbeek saved his number and remembered the promise.

You can bet that anybody serious about keeping this team in New Jersey should rely on one of the most popular players of his generation, and that Shaq is ready and willing.

"I have no idea why the Nets aren't playing there," Shaq said. "It makes no sense. I know they're trying to get to Brooklyn, but if I was the general manager or the owner of that team, I'd be playing in Newark right now."

Imagine, the Nets staying where they belong with one of the all-time greatest players helping them become a fixture in his home city. It would be, of course -- to borrow his word again -- Shaqtastic.

http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2009/01/shaquille_oneals_the_man_to_br.html

[JCMAN320]

YES Shaq, if he doesn't understand why they won't go to Newark. I hated watching my guys lose to him and the Lakers in the 2001/2002 NBA Finals; but I will love him if he does this. SHAQ BRING THE NETS TO NEWARK!!!!

[BrooklynLove]

You sound desperate.

[Alonzo-ny]

Its not in his power to control. He wont push out Ratner unless he wants to sell.

[JCMAN320]

ATLANTIC YARDS LOOKS TO $LASH TRANSIT UPGRADE

By RICH CALDER

January 22, 2009

Brooklyn's Atlantic Yards project is in such financial upheaval that the developer is now trying to cut back on much-needed transit improvements, which he promised in exchange for approval for the controversial $4 billion project, The Post has learned.

Sources said Bruce Ratner is in talks with the cash-strapped Metropolitan Transportation Authority about cutting costs on a revamp and move of the Long Island Rail Road's Vanderbilt Rail Yard, which he agreed to purchase three years ago for $100 million.

The news has Atlantic Yards opponents seething because Ratner wasn't the highest bidder for the 8.3-acre rail yard site, but the MTA agreed to sell it to the developer anyway, allowing him to move forward with his now crumbling 22-acre plan to build an NBA arena and 16 office and residential towers in Prospect Heights.

The arena, which earlier this month Ratner also said he is trying to cut costs on, is to be built over the existing rail yard at Atlantic and Flatbush avenues.

Ratner's $100 million bid to the MTA was $50 million lower than a rival proposal by Extell Development. An agency appraisal found the rail yard worth $214.5 million.

Ratner won out after convincing the MTA his plan was actually worth $445 million, by claiming it included $345 million in transit enhancements.

Those were to include construction of a $182 million replacement rail yard, an environmental cleanup, and other improvements around the bustling Atlantic Avenue transit hub.

In light of the news that Ratner is trying to cut costs, Daniel Goldstein, spokesman for the anti-Atlantic Yards group Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn, called on the MTA to put the project back out for bids.

"Either [Ratner's company] wildly inflated the cost of constructing a new rail yard to win their bid despite their lowball offer, or they're not building the state-of-the-art yard they had agreed to build," he said.

The MTA declined to discuss the talks. Ratner spokesman Joe DePlasco said the developer is "committed to doing" the rail-yard work, but he declined to discuss the effect of shaving costs on the finished product.

Ratner, meanwhile, has yet to pay the MTA the $100 million for the site, and he's in talks about spreading out the payments, sources said.

Earlier this month, Ratner confirmed he's looking to shave hundreds of millions from the planned $950 million, glass-and-steel arena for his New Jersey Nets designed by star architect Frank Gehry.

Borough President Marty Markowitz followed that announcement with a call for a considerable downscale "brownstone" facade for the arena.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Death throes?

[Alonzo-ny]

I wouldnt be sad to see new bids on this thing.

[JCMAN320]

Atlantic Yards arena security scare: Special glass alone would cost $625 per sq. foot

BY JOTHAM SEDERSTROM
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Monday, February 2nd 2009, 10:39 AM

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/02/03/alg_brooklynyards.jpg
Bachner for News
The Atlantic Yards construction site stood idle late last year.

The stratospheric cost of protecting the Atlantic Yards from terrorist attacks could be the death knell for architect Frank Gehry's flashy NBA basketball arena, the Daily News has learned.

The bulletproof glass facade proposed for the glitzy arena will cost a mind-blowing $625 per square foot, a source familiar with the designs told The News.

"I think the owners clearly didn't have their financing tied down for this project, and that's going to be the biggest hurdle," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity about the sky-high prices associated with securing the 850,000-square-foot arena against terrorism.

"With the security concerns at the arena, there's not much you can do to make it that much cheaper," added the source.

As The News first reported last month, developer Forest City Ratner has hired value engineers to find ways to cut costs at the $4.2billion development project.

Sources close to the project said the cost of reinforcing the arena's thick glass with a ballistic-resistant glaze shocked even Gehry's own designers.

"The office was very surprised at how expensive the glass configurations actually were," said the source, who added the arena's price tag jumped from $637 million to $950 million because of the cost of protecting it from attack.

The Police Department, the New York State Office of Homeland Security and Forest City Ratner met to discuss security at the arena in early 2008, a Homeland Security spokeswoman confirmed.

Forest City Ratner spokesman Joe DePlasco declined to discuss security matters at the project, but a source close to the developer said security and other matters have made the arena too expensive to build.

"Security is one component of the cost of the arena, but by no means the most significant," said the source. "There are a whole host of reasons why the current design is expensive, including the size, the signature look and the materials. It would be very difficult to fund this arena in this economic environment."

Opponents of the 22-acre project, who filed a 2007 lawsuit demanding safety precautions be made public, renewed their call for Forest City Ratner and state authorities to answer questions about safety risks at the site.

"We've asserted for years the arena would require terrorism security mitigation with significant impacts," said Daniel Goldstein, a member of the anti-Yards group Develop Don't Destroy.

jsederstrom@nydailynews.com

[lofter1]

... the arena's price tag jumped from $637 million to $950 million because of the cost of protecting it from attack ...

This is such BS. The possiblility of attack :confused: is no different today than it was when this project was first proposed. If Ratner iddn't know the figures back then it means he's a bigger idiot than we here at WNY have previously labeled him.

But chances are he did know and was just going to get the taxpayers of NYC to pay for it by waddling his lard a$$ up to the public trough.

SCUMBUCKET & DISGUSTING

[ablarc]

^ Jumping to conclusions.

The security issue --being entirely a matter of speculation about a future that no one can foresee-- is exactly what the "authorities" choose to make it. They could have chosen otherwise, and it doesn't surprise me in the least if they're just now straggling in with their criteria.

Have any of these security "experts" taken into account, for example, that the country has almost certainly grown more secure as a result of the new President?

This is subject to strenuous doubt:

The possiblility of attack is no different today than it was when this project was first proposed.

For that to be true, you'd have to feel that Obama's election has had no positive impact on our security.

I find that implausible.

.

[BrooklynLove]

Antlatic Yards reporting is about as credible these days as Britney Spears reporting.

[lofter1]

ablarc: you seem to be arguing that the costs should now have gone down (due to Obama being in charge), yes?

The question is materials for construction, specifically some type of super glass for the facade, which may have increased in price over the past couple of years.

But the implication of this recent reporting is that, despite the occurences of 9/11, Ratner + Gehry went with a glass-sheathed arena located but a bomb's throw from a major vehicular artery and ignored basic facts of NYC in the 21st Century (such as were discussed between the NYPD / PANYNJ in regard to glass and location of the new WTC1 a few years back).

What conclusion can be drawn from such decisions (particularly decisions made by a developer who bathes in public funds)?

[ablarc]

ablarc: you seem to be arguing that the costs should now have gone down (due to Obama being in charge), yes?
No. I'm arguing that the experts making security requirements are idiots, and drove up the expenses unpredictably, arbitrarily and probably belatedly.

What comes out of their orifices is the real BS.

They should back off and let the project be built without bulletproof glass.

After all, they're about to re-open the Statue of Liberty. Talk about vulnerable!

And yes, they should now relax their requirements and let the cost come down.

[lofter1]

That ^ makes some sense. What doesn't make sense is Ratner. Plus it seems he's got no money to do much of anything here -- let alone a state of the art sports arena that is fitting for one of the largest metropolitan centers in the country.

[ablarc]

^ Well, he had to pay out all kinds of money during all that time that got frittered away in court. Is it any wonder he ran out of money?

From the start and all along, this project should have been welcomed and assisted by the community. There would now be nice buildings, an arena, a basketball team, improved transport, a dynamic sense of progress, and jobs. Instead, there's a hole in the ground.

Getting into a high dudgeon about use of public funds may have enabled some to parade their impeccable standards of morality, but those folks have shot themselves in the foot. And they've deprived the rest of us of what we could have had.

[lofter1]

You can celebrate when they build it in Charlotte ;)

[fioco]

Even with the friendly wink, that was a dismissal of ablarc's comments. Something I observe all the time in this forum, and a cavalier attitude that greatly weakens its ability to bring issues into the public forum. Whatever one's opinions on Atlantic Yards, the site remains a hole and not a provider of jobs in Brooklyn in a time of economic crisis. No use crying over spilt milk, especially for those who rejoice in the present status quo. A friendly wink? or a veiled dismissal? Emoticons are a poor substitute for expressed thought. Hopefully I have misinterpreted. How many readers may have done also? An extra ten seconds of thought before hitting submit will yield vastly superior results.

[lofter1]

I've never disguised my dislike for this project, which has been a boondoggle from day one.

We're broke and can't afford to fill Ratners pockets (yet again).

What some call deprivation others view as saving grace.

But maybe some posters here can finance it?

No wink on this one.

[TREPYE]

Emoticons are a poor substitute for expressed thought.

Most emoticons can be useless but the one that really describes in a picture what cannot be effectively and efficiently describe in words is....

:rolleyes:

My emoticon of choice when I come across some of the inane stuff. When something is just so dumb you dont want to spend mind energy counjuring up the right words but cant help to not mention anything break out the ol' rolling eyes...

[BrooklynRider]

Looks like we might get a development more like Bedrock from the Flintstones instead of a Gehry shock development.

Boulders have been deposited along Flatbush Avenue...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/NYC%202-7-2009/DSCN2650.jpg

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/NYC%202-7-2009/DSCN2651.jpg

[JCMAN320]

ATL. YARDS BIG WANTS PORK PIE

Last updated: 3:47 am
February 9, 2009

The future of Atlantic Yards --Brooklyn's biggest development project -- could hinge on President Obama's $827 billion stimulus plan.

City and state officials say they expect developer Bruce Ratner to lobby hard for a piece of the federal pork to help bail out his reeling $4 billion plan to bring an NBA arena and 16 residential and office towers to Prospect Heights, which is in jeopardy because of the economic downtown.

Borough President Marty Markowitz, the project's biggest cheerleader, said yesterday that funds from the stimulus bill should go to offset arena construction, and especially aid Ratner in a revamp of Long Island Rail Road's Vanderbilt rail yard.

"This project is shovel-ready, and the jobs it would create are needed now," said Markowitz, adding Atlantic Yards would also boost businesses nearby

The Post reported last month that Ratner is having such serious cash-flow problems that he's in talks with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority about cutting costs on a $445 million transit improvement plan he promised in 2005 in order to get the green light from the state for Atlantic Yards.

Ratner, who declined comment, has projected Atlantic Yards would deliver thousands of permanent jobs and 15,000 construction jobs.

Daniel Goldstein, spokesman for the anti-Atlantic Yards group Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn, said "stimulus funds shouldn't be used to bail out a private developer, especially for the Atlantic Yards money pit.

"It would be obscene to use such funds for an arena and to foster the misuse of eminent domain," he added.

State officials say the project would qualify for New York's share of stimulus funds, but no distribution decisions have been made.

Although stadium projects don't qualify to receive money through the stimulus bill, arenas are not mentioned in the document.

Local politicians say they expect Atlantic Yard's transit improvements to become a likely target for funds, but Assemblyman Hakeem Jeffries (D-Brooklyn) said Ratner shouldn't get aid unless he guarantees "there will be substantial affordable housing" built early on.

Ratner wasn't the highest bidder when agreeing to purchase the rail yard in 2005 for $100 million. He hasn't closed on the deal and is now looking to pay the MTA in installments.

There is no timeline to compete Atlantic Yards. At best, construction of the arena and, perhaps, one of the skyscrapers could begin this year and possibly be completed by late 2011 if a lawsuit challenging the project's use of eminent domain is dismissed within a few months, the developer says.

Most of the rest of Atlantic Yards is expected to be on hold for many years -- or until a Ratner comes up with enough money to build.

Ratner last month confirmed he's also trying to scale back costs on the Frank Gehry-designed, $950 million arena, to potentially save hundreds of millions of dollars.

rich.calder@nypost.com

[ablarc]

ATL. YARDS BIG WANTS PORK PIE

City and state officials say they expect developer Bruce Ratner to lobby hard for a piece of the federal pork to help bail out his reeling $4 billion plan to bring an NBA arena and 16 residential and office towers to Prospect Heights, which is in jeopardy because of the economic downtown.
Hey, that's some objective article! Comes right out with a measured exposition of all sides of the issue, and never lets up on the even-handedness.

A journalistic paragon.

[BrooklynLove]

The govt needs to stimulate growth opportunities and this project is among the strongest currently on the table. Sorry NJMan - you can't argue with fundamentals.

[ZippyTheChimp]

ATL. YARDS BIG WANTS PORK PIE

Last updated: 3:47 am
February 9, 2009

The future of Atlantic Yards --Brooklyn's biggest development project -- could hinge on President Obama's $827 billion stimulus plan.Throwing good money after bad.

This thing so needs to die.

[STT757]

Although stadium projects don't qualify to receive money through the stimulus bill, arenas are not mentioned in the document.

Are they serious?... The Obama Administration does not want the funds to go to Private Developers for NBA Arenas, this kind of garbage just gives more fodder to Republicans and pundants like Rush to wave in front of the American people and say "look what they're spending your tax dollars on".

While some posters here might think it's legit, tens of Millions of Americans across the Country would vehemently disagree.

The money would be better spent on more transportation projects; improving roads, revamping Subway stations, getting the Second phase of the SAS going, renovating or building new schools etc..

[lofter1]

Isn't the first thing that needs to be done (besides prepping the site) is to build the platform over the tracks?

First things first, one step at a time.

If anything, pay as it moves forward. Evaluate the project at each stage before more funds are OK'd.

This Ratner money-sucker will eat up every bit of Fed Aid he can get his hands on with no guarantees that NYC will end up with a great Transport Hub rather than some money sucking arena, where lots of folks won't be able to afford to attend sporting events held there.

[JCMAN320]

Mayor Booker: moving Nets to Newark "fixed in my mind"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Even as political officials in New York are hoping to position Atlantic Yards for federal stimulus funds, Newark Mayor Cory Booker says that the city's effort to lure the New Jersey Nets to Newark is "fixed in my mind."

That comment came as Booker was interviewed last Thursday, February 5, on Newark Today with Mayor Cory Booker, a public affairs show on WGBO, Newark's public radio station, hosted by Andrew Meyer.

Actually, as the Star-Ledger's Brian Donohue explained in the video report Ledger Live, Booker's prepared--but not delivered--text included a planned slip. As the mayor discussed bringing different types of investments to the city, he was to say, "We're excited to see what's NETS... I mean, next."

WBGO's Meyer was interviewed about Booker's speech yesterday, on All Things Considered , at about 38:15 of the second hour. Beginning at about 42:15, Meyer was asked what Booker didn't talk about.

AM: I would almost say the New Jersey Nets. Now, he did have a quick reference to the Nets. [It's not clear whether Meyer was referring to the prepared text or not.]
But the big question right now, one of the big questions in the city is: what's going to happen with the Nets. They're waiting for their arena to be built in Brooklyn. But many people are saying, "Look, you've got this brand new sports arena right in downtown Newark where the [hockey New Jersey] Devils are playing... this would be an ideal location to bring the Nets. It's ready to go; they can just walk in and it's theirs." So, there's a lot of speculation about whether or not that team is going to end up here. Mayor Booker's holding his cards very tight to the vest on this one. We pressed him time and time again, and he'll just say that his staff would be very angry with him if he was to tip any details. But he says there are discussions going on there.

On WGBO, "out on a limb"

Last Thursday, however, the mayor was not reticent. The sequence began at about 35:10 of the show; both Booker and host Meyer sounded notably enthusiastic.

CB: Our city in the next three years is going to have the most exciting things happening in our downtown. And I can't wait. And I'm going to go out on a limb right now. When we start seeing things like the Nets return to Newark--and I say return, but come--

AM: --You read my mind, Mayor... When are they coming? What do you know?

CB:I tell you this. I am putting a considerable amount of time into this, strategies, working behind the scenes. I really don't want to go too far out on a limb and my staff is going to jump all over me because--

(Last May 1 the Star-Ledger reported on efforts by the city administration and Devils owner Jeff Vanderbeek to assemble an ownership group to buy the Nets.)

Brooklyn a mirage?

AM: Well, let me put out there what we know. We have a contributor here who's been tracking the project closely, and he's said basically that the Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn has ground to a halt, Bruce Ratner, the developer, is not moving forward with the arena, supposedly until all the lawsuits over eminent domain are settled, and they're not even due to go to trial until next year. You combine that with the lack of financing available for big projects and, y'know, the Brooklyn Nets seem more and more like a mirage.

Actually, the eminent domain lawsuit will be heard in less than two weeks (and a decision in the EIS case is pending). Forest City Ratner executives assert that construction would begin in mid-2009.

Booker remained enthusiastic

CB: I'm telling you right now I have it fixed in my mind. Every single day I think about it, that we're going to have the Newark Nets one day. It's taking a lot of work on both sides of the river, and there are a lot of people from Brooklyn to Newark that believe that that team belongs here. What it's going to mean for our city is, just like the bars and restaurants that I was around [downtown], on Super Bowl Sunday. It means another 50 nights of tens of thousands of people coming to the city of Newark. It means parking tax for the city, payroll tax for the city, it means more economic development, more minority businesses are going to open up in our downtown through our loan fund. It would make a tremendous difference, and create an incredible excitement, it's something I'm working very hard on, and I'm hoping that will be successful.

The rent and the parking

Meyer also brought up the dispute about the $2 million rent the New Jersey Devils, the primary tenant of the Prudential Center, allegedly owe the city.

Booker said the issue was in arbitration and "I will not yield." However, he said that the Devils "make a tremendous amount of contributions: to the community, so, while the city should demand every dollar it deserves, it should "continue to build the strength and steam of that institution."

Meyer brought up complaints that it costs $40 for parking near the arena. "Those are midtown Manhattan prices," he said.

Booker's response: "What I'm going to simply say is take public transportation... We're perfectly located in the middle of a great transportation hub." He also pointed out that, if visitors were willing to walk, parking was less costly a little farther from the arena.

[lofter1]

Atlantic Yards Project Gets a Reprieve

NY TIMES (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/atlantic-yards-project-gets-a-reprieve/)
By CHARLES V. BAGLI
February 13, 2009, 3:49 PM
Update | 5:36 p.m.

The beleaguered Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn won a reprieve Friday when its lender agreed to extend its loan rather than demand full payment this month.

The developer Bruce Ratner, chief executive of Forest City Ratner, has been scrambling to keep alive his proposed $4 billion project, which includes a basketball arena and up to 6,000 apartments, in the face of a severe recession, chaotic financial markets and a string of lawsuits brought by local opponents.

Forest City’s loan of $177 million from Gramercy Capital Corporation for the 22-acre property was due this month, which caused much speculation in political and real estate circles about the fate of the project.

Executives familiar with the negotiations had said that Forest City would sign an agreement in which the company will make a $15 million payment immediately, as well as additional large payments in the future, in return for a two-year extension.

Late Friday afternoon, the company issued a statement confirming that the deal had been struck.

“This is a great outcome given current market conditions, and I applaud the work of our New York team in making this happen,” said Charles A. Ratner, Forest City Enterprises president and chief executive officer. “This is a key step in our strategy of proactively managing our debt maturities. By working closely with Gramercy to secure this extension, we have put Atlantic Yards in a position to achieve the vision of economic revitalization, job creation and affordable housing for the future of Brooklyn.”

Still, the Atlantic Yards project faces a critical test in the coming weeks at the state Appellate Court, which will hear oral arguments Feb. 23 in a lawsuit challenging the state’s use of eminent domain to seize privately owned property on behalf of the project. A victory for the opponents could be devastating for the developer.

Forest City has indicated that it will delay building its planned office tower or the first of the residential buildings, but it is still hoping to start construction later this year on the arena, which was designed by the architect Frank Gehry. Knowing that it could not obtain financing in the credit markets for an arena costing $1 billion, Forest City has put engineers to work trying to cut the price in half.

In recent weeks, Mr. Ratner has sought to slash the arena’s cost and to get more subsidies from the city, the state and even New York’s portion of the recently approved federal stimulus package, beyond the $300 million in cash and tens of millions in tax breaks already committed to the project. Former Senator Alfonse M. D’Amato’s firm, Park Strategies, has been lobbying on behalf of Forest City to get federal money for infrastructure projects. But some state officials say that Atlantic Yards is unlikely to get that money, since other needs are more pressing.

Daniel Goldstein, a spokesman for Develop Don’t Destroy Brooklyn, has denounced the effort. The group sees Atlantic Yards as far too large for the community, among other objections.

The coming months will be telling. Barclays Bank, which signed a $20 million a year deal for the naming rights at the basketball arena, extended its deadline for the start of construction until the end of 2009. Under a recent ruling by the Internal Revenue Service, Forest City has only until the end of the year to use special tax-exempt financing for the arena.

Forest City Ratner was the development partner for the new Midtown headquarters of The New York Times Company.

[Scruffy88]

at this point, this is a farce. cutting the price in half? Its going to end up looking as boring as the arena in Nassau where the islanders play. In the middle of brooklyn. oh the humanity. just give up already

[BrooklynLove]

This is getting amusing. First the project must be stopped b/c it's robbing the people, now it must be stopped b/c it's too cheap.

[ablarc]

^ You forgot:


far too large for the community, among other objections.
Lil' ol' Brooklyn.

[JSsocal]

An interesting article today on Frank Gehry in the Los Angeles Times. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-frank-gehry1-2009mar01,0,6287016.story

"Most distressing of all for Gehry, two projects that he saw as capstones to his career, gigantic mixed-use developments on L.A.'s Grand Avenue and at Brooklyn's Atlantic Yards, have both been put on hold." - LA Times

"I've had a disappointing year, couple of years, with Grand Avenue and Brooklyn," he said in a wide-ranging conversation in his office last week in which he was by turns ruminative, weary and hopeful. "All my life I've wanted to do projects like that, and they never came to me. And then all of a sudden I had two of them. I invested the last five years in them, and they're both stopped. So it leaves a very hollow feeling in your bones." - Gehry

[NoyokA]

Gehry can't complain he's reached a level that less than 1% of all architects ever reach.

[Alonzo-ny]

Sounds like Gehry is a drama queen. If he cared so much he should have strove to become a better architect when it comes to planning large areas of a city. He did get the arena block right though Ill give him that.

[Derek2k3]

http://nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.c0935b9a57bb4ef3daf2f1c701c789a0/index.jsp?pageID=mayor_press_release&catID=1194&doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fnyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fom%2Fhtml%2 F2009a%2Fpr097-09.html&cc=unused1978&rc=1194&ndi=1

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
PR- 097-09
February 26, 2009

STATEMENT BY MAYOR MICHAEL R. BLOOMBERG ON TODAY’S APPELLATE DIVISION RULING ON THE REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF ATLANTIC YARDS PROJECT

“The Atlantic Yards project will create thousands of jobs and generate badly-needed tax revenue. The court’s unanimous affirmation today that the review and approvals processes were comprehensive and properly completed is a big step towards the start of construction.”

[BrooklynLove]

Chug Chug Chug.

[Tectonic]

Just build it damn it.

[JCMAN320]

New Jersey Nets to open preseason in Newark

by Ted Sherman/The Star-Ledger
Wednesday March 04, 2009, 2:06 PM

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2009/02/large_PRUDENTIALCENTER.JPG
Noah K. Murray/The Star-Ledger
Exterior photo of Prudential Center on March 5, 2008.

The Nets will open their preseason next fall in Newark.

The team, which plays at the Izod Center in East Rutherford, will meet the Celtics on Oct. 13 and the Knicks on Oct. 21, in two preseason games at the Prudential Center, bringing NBA basketball for the first time to the state's largest city. A third preseason game will be played on the campus of St. Johns University in Queens against the 76ers at Carnesecca Arena on Oct. 23.

"We are excited to bring our team and our brand to Newark and Queens for the pre-season schedule for next season," said Nets CEO Brett Yormark. "We are looking forward to playing two games against two of our biggest rivals, the Celtics and the Knicks, at the Prudential Center. We are also excited to be playing a game at St. John's in Queens, a borough where we expect great support for the Nets when we move to the Barclays Center in Brooklyn in 2011."

The Devils organization has made no secret of its desire to have the Nets move into their arena, known as The Rock, and to close the Izod Center. At the same time, there are mounting questions over whether construction on the long-delayed Brooklyn arena will ever get underway, in the face of continuing community opposition and a worsening recession that is killing major development projects across the country. But while the disclosure of initial talks of a preseason series in Newark led to speculation that the Nets were exploring the viability of a permanent move to Newark, team officials say their future is still in Brooklyn.

Jeff Vanderbeek, president of the Devils, said the series will be a great chance to introduce Nets customers to the Prudential Center. "We are looking forward to bringing NBA basketball to the Prudential Center for the preseason," he said.

Nets season ticket holders will have the option, but will not be required, to purchase tickts for any or all of the games. They will, however, have the opportunity to purchase the tickets in advance of the general public. Tickets for the general public will go on sale in the early fall. Tickets for the Prudential Center games will be available at the Prudential Center box office and through the Nets ticket office and Ticketmaster, while tickets for the game at St. John's will be available at the St. John's box office and through the Nets ticket office.

[BrooklynLove]

FOREST CITY RATNER STATEMENT:
APPELLATE DIVISION RULES IN FAVOR OF ATLANTIC YARDS
Unanimous Environmental Decision Upholds Blight Findings and Concludes the State Met Its Environmental Review Obligations
Brooklyn, NY – February 26, 2009 – Bruce Ratner, CEO and Chairman of Forest City Ratner Companies, issued the following statement today regarding the Appellate Division, First Department, ruling on the public approvals for the Atlantic Yards project.
"Once again the courts have decided in favor of Atlantic Yards," Mr. Ratner said. "This project has been reviewed as thoroughly as any in the City and now it is time to put these cases behind us and get to work. Today’s decision speaks comprehensively about the review and approval steps followed for this project and unanimously validates the process."
The ruling today, which was unanimous, and upholds a State Supreme Court ruling on January 11, 2008, includes six major points related to the review process:
• The State met its environmental review obligations. Its 3,500 page EIS provides an "impressively detailed analysis of the project’s anticipated environmental impacts in 16 separately identified areas."

• Confirms that Barclays Center serves a public purpose as a civic project.

• Confirms the validity of ESDC’s determination that the project site is blighted. "There is no real issue as the actual condition of the properties or of the whole area…the existence of circumstances indicative of "substandard and unsanitary" conditions in that area is extensively documented."

• The Project includes constitutionally sufficient public purposes – quoting prior decisions, court notes that the project includes "several classic public uses," including alleviation of blight and the development of a sports arena.

• The EIS properly considered alternatives to the proposed Atlantic Yards project.

• The court concluded that "the project at issue does not pose extraordinary inherent [security] risks."
While Mr. Ratner acknowledged one remaining case, for which there was a hearing this week, he explained, "We are ready and eager to break ground. Now more than ever we need to get people back to work and get this project going. Atlantic Yards promises to generate thousands of new jobs, needed new tax revenue for the City and the State, and
affordable homes. The courts have consistently ruled in favor of this project because it is good for the City, the State and the borough. This was never truer than now."
Legal Update
• Today’s decision is the 22nd consecutive ruling in favor of Atlantic Yards

• June 23, 2008. The United States Supreme Court declines to review a decision by the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit.

• February 1, 2008. US Court of Appeals, the Second Circuit, unanimously rejects the opponents’ appeal in the federal eminent domain lawsuit that was dismissed in June 2007.

• January 15, 2008. The Appellate Division of the New York State Supreme Court unanimously dismisses a challenge to the project approvals under Section 207 of the Eminent Domain Procedure Law in November 2007. Opponents’ request for an appeal was denied in January 2008.

• January 11, 2008. NY State Supreme Court rules against opponents in a case on environmental review procedures. Opponents are appealing the case.

• October 2007. A second suit brought in the NY State Supreme Court challenging the State's use of eminent domain was dismissed in May 2007, and the dismissal was affirmed by the Appellate Division in October 2007.

[BrooklynLove]

Calling all Nets sponsors

BY Jotham Sederstrom (http://www.nydailynews.com/authors/Jotham%20Sederstrom)
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Monday, March 2nd 2009, 2:32 PM
Developer Forest City Ratner (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Forest+City+Ratner+Companies) has announced a sponsorship deal that could pour millions into the ailing Atlantic Yards (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Atlantic+Yards) project - if it ever gets built.
MetroPCS (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/MetroPCS+Communications+Inc.), a wireless phone company, will join eight other corporations as sponsors of the New Jersey Nets (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/New+Jersey+Nets), the NBA (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/National+Basketball+Association) basketball team Bruce Ratner (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Bruce+Ratner) hopes to bring to Brooklyn (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Brooklyn) to play in a new arena at Atlantic Yards.
Last week's announcement came on the same day as opening statements in a lawsuit against the $4.2 billion project, and followed a flurry of setbacks, including word that the Frank Gehry (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Frank+Gehry)-designed arena could be scaled back to save money.
"I think they're trying to save a sinking ship, and I think they're trying to put their best face forward," said Councilwoman Letitia James (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Letitia+James) (WFP-Prospect Heights (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Prospect+Heights+(Brooklyn))), an opponent of the 22-acre arena/residential/commercial project.
As part of the deal, MetroPCS advertising and stores would be featured prominently on the upper tier of the proposed 18,000-seat Barclays Center (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Barclays+Center) arena in an area that will be called the MetroPCS Pavilion, Nets officials said.
The deal - which includes two years at the Izod Center (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Izod+Center) in New Jersey, where the Nets now play and five years in Brooklyn - is worth approximately $10 million, sources told the Daily News.
Other companies that have already signed on to sponsor the Nets include Anheuser-Busch (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Anheuser-Busch+Companies+Inc.), Foxwoods Resort Casino (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Foxwoods+Resort+Casino) and Jones Soda Co. (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Jones+Soda+Co.) Those deals range from $1 million to $5 million per year, according to sources familiar with the deal.
"As a new founding partner, MetroPCS is showing its excitement about the Barclays Center and the entire Atlantic Yards development," Nets Sports and Entertainment CEO Brett Yormark (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Brett+Yormark) said in a prepared statement.
Opponents of the plan, which would include 16 residential and commercial towers, characterized the announcement as window dressing, saying Forest City Ratner was attempting to bolster support during financial difficulties.
Daniel Goldstein (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Daniel+Goldstein), a member of the anti-Yards group Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Develop+Don't+Destroy+Brooklyn), wondered whether MetroPCS was aware of reports that renowned architect Gehry had parted ways with Ratner and laid off designers working on the glitzy arena.
"I wonder what they told MetroPCS," said Goldstein. "Presumably they won't mind slapping their logo somewhere in the Newark Prudential Center (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Newark+Prudential+Center) once Barclays (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Barclays+plc) walks away."
jsederstrom@nydailynews.com (jsederstrom@nydailynews.com)

[BrooklynLove]

My favorite part of the NYD article is how petty and irrelevant Goldstein comes across.

[Derek2k3]

This would be about the same view from eastern towers of Atlantic Yards. There's no doubt these would sell. Especially since the surrounding neighborhoods have been downzoned and there are very few development sites available.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/chrisyslslr/33/3345314799_c7582700a6_b.jpg

[BrooklynRider]

Nice pic, BL. Is that your view from home?

[antinimby]

That was Derek, not BL.

OBP has added tremendously to the Midtown skyline as have the NY Times.

[TREPYE]

The one of the many things that makes that shot so incredible is how you can see the ESB from head to toe...

[BrooklynLove]

Nice pic, BL. Is that your view from home?

I wish (that was my view and that I'd taken that shot) but here's hoping that your Jedi mind tricks prove influential. :D

The ESB is in view from Coney Island as well. That building is a beast.

[kz1000ps]

BOA's spire looks great from out here. Perhaps there's a cloud cover darkening the Chrysler, but BOA is stealing the No. 2 spotlight from its 42nd Street neighbor.

[zinka]

This would be about the same view from eastern towers of Atlantic Yards. There's no doubt these would sell. Especially since the surrounding neighborhoods have been downzoned and there are very few development sites available.


I think this view must be from the Atlantic Terminal Houses. What a view!

[BiggieSmalls]

Court Rebuffs Atlantic Yards Opponents as Legal Options Narrow
May 15, 2009 | 1:32 p.m
http://www.observer.com/2009/real-estate/court-rebuffs-atlantic-yards-opponents-legal-options-narrow
(http://www.observer.com/2009/real-estate/court-rebuffs-atlantic-yards-opponents-legal-options-narrow)
Developer Bruce Ratner has won another victory in his undying attempt to bring the Nets to Brooklyn as part of the $4 billion mixed-use project, Atlantic Yards. In a decision posted online on Friday, landowners and tenants were rebuffed by the state appellate court in a case that contested the use of eminent domain for the project

[STT757]

*If* the Nets do move to Brooklyn, New Jersey should start trying to lure another NBA franchise to Newark, I mean Oklahoma City has a franchise which I find mind boggling.

[BrooklynLove]

Oklahoma City has tons more going for it than Newark. Sorry but Newark is awful. A train station, 1 company, and some highways only goes so far.

[BKALLDAY]

Oklahoma City has tons more going for it than Newark. Sorry but Newark is awful. A train station, 1 company, and some highways only goes so far.
um you forgot about a sports arena.Downtown Newark is on the rise please dont hate.......Brooklyn used to get dissed all the time for being to ghetto.

[Antares41]

Newark like Brooklyn is a great location, just can't see it being down for long.

On another note, I would imagine that the Knicks and the Nets would fight tooth and nail to keep a third team from entering the NY Metro area. Teams don't like their fan base being divided, and given the sorry state of the Knick and Nets they need to hold on to every fan they can. I predict they would vote "No".

[STT757]

Oklahoma City has tons more going for it than Newark. Sorry but Newark is awful. A train station, 1 company, and some highways only goes so far.

Wow you're ignorant, while Newark might have it's trouble it is the largest City in the State with the second highest household income per capita in the Nation. Newark is a transportation hub with three Major Interstates, a major International airport the Northeast Corridor and the third busiest Port in the Country.

[BrooklynLove]

I know Newark very well. Your comments are great if you're underwriting a GO bond issuance for the city but don't mean jack to the desirability of being there - i.e. drawing crowds to games. I'm not ignorant, but do you have common sense?

[STT757]

How many hotels does Brooklyn have?..

[lofter1]

Well, BK has at least six McSams (http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/_sun_sets_on_ho.php).

Can Newark match that?

[Alonzo-ny]

it is the largest City in the State with the second highest household income per capita in the Nation.

Camden is in NJ as well, does that mean diddly squat? Nope, same goes for this comment.

[BrooklynLove]

How many hotels does Brooklyn have?..

Enough.

You're still missing the fundamental issue - people do not want to physically locate themselves in Newark for even a 3 hour period. The place is a hole. Refurbing a train station and building an arena gives you a hole with a refurbed train station and new arena. The area needs to draw the arena, not vice versa.

By the way, you should educate yourself re Oklahoma City - it's no accident or stroke of luck that they landed a team.

[STT757]

Camden is in NJ as well, does that mean diddly squat? Nope, same goes for this comment.

So is Princeton, the most prestigious University in the United States. What it means is New Jersey is a small state (third smallest in the Nation) however it is also the 2nd wealthiest (was #1 last year, Wall Street troubles knocked it down). A 10 minute drive from downtown Newark is some of New Jersey's wealthiest communities, and several major corporations.

Ratner is hoping to lure Long Islanders to Downtown Brooklyn to fill those expensive seats, not locals. The Prudential Center in Newark draws fans from the nearby Wealthy communities, not locals. Newark has better highway access compared to Brooklyn , highways in Brooklyn are a joke. I went to the Mets vs Braves game last week, it took 1:10 minutes to drive from the Verranzano Bridge to the Grand Central Parkway.

I still think the Nets will move to Newark.

[Alonzo-ny]

Ratner is hoping to lure Long Islanders to Downtown Brooklyn to fill those expensive seats, not locals.

Why would they drive if the LIRR goes right to the arena. You'll never get sympathy from anyone that its hard to drive around NYC.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Maybe someone can explain why an NBA team can't make it in Newark, but an NHL team can.

And the NHL team does it as the only anchor tenant, while both teams would split arena operating expenses.

[BrooklynLove]

Whether or not a team "can make it" is not the proper arbiter.

Any team in the NYC area could "make it" in Newark but that doesn't mean putting them there makes more sense than putting them in Brooklyn.

[ZippyTheChimp]

So as long as it's now been determined that an NBA team can "make it" in Newark, and we can put that silly argument to rest; how does it make more sense to put the team in Brooklyn with...

No other franchise to share arena operation.
No arena for them to move into.
A proposed arena with shaky financing.

[BrooklynLove]

You're only considering one side of the analysis. Higher benefit justifies higher cost. You're question actually begs the answer. Why not take the easier option? Because the harder option is so much more desirable.

[ZippyTheChimp]

No, I've considered both sides. You haven't.

Municipal investments in sports facilities have consistently been shown to be poor choices when correctly compared to alternate uses for the funds. The number and quality of jobs provided are poor. The city doesn't make much on its investment; the ownership does.

YS over 80 years in the South Bronx has done nothing for the neighborhood.
MSG over 40 years in Midtown - ditto.

The fact that the arena in Newark is already built and can operate more efficiently with two franchises removes the negative aspect of tying up public funds.

[BrooklynRider]

Ratner has been exploiting Brooklyn for a long time with much success. I think he felt that bringing a professional sports team back to Brooklyn would generate a grooundswell of support. That support would generate generous tax breaks and low-interest government loans. He would never even consider building an arena, if it didn't include office space and/or housing.

It was never about a sports team. It was about money and generating support for a hare-brained scheme to create a monstrous mega-development in the heart of Brooklyn. Markowitz was the biggest cheerleader. He was so far off the mark that he keeps his mouth shut on all this "Atlantic Yards." He's re-learning that lesson in Coney Island, where no one wants his crappy amphitheater either.

[BrooklynLove]

So then we get the arena by exploiting Ratner. This project is great for further positive growth in the boro. It is a fabulous dot to the exclamation point that starts at the foot of the Manhattan Bridge where we have the resurgance of downtown BK. I don't know how people can't get excited about this, and opposing it is just stunning.

[STT757]

MAY 18, 2009, 5:32 PM
Bradley Wants Nets to Play in Newark, Not Brooklyn

By JOE BRESCIA

Add Bill Bradley, the former Knicks star and United States senator from New Jersey, to the list of skeptics regarding the planned 18,000-seat basketball arena that is to be a centerpiece of the Atlantic Yards development near downtown Brooklyn.

Mr. Bradley, who sought the Democratic nomination for president in 2000, said in a recent interview that he supports efforts by Mayor Cory A. Booker of Newark to lure a professional sports team there. Mr. Bradley believes that the Nets, which currently play in the Izod Center in East Rutherford, N.J., can play in the Prudential Arena, the home of the Devils.

The former senator noted that the controversial Atlantic Yards project — which would include apartments, offices, stores along with the arena — has been delayed as a result of the economic downturn.

“Maybe it takes something like that to bring people to their senses,” Mr. Bradley said about the stalled Brooklyn project. “They don’t belong in Brooklyn. They belong in New Jersey. They belong here.”

The developer Bruce C. Ratner, who is behind the Atlantic Yards project, faces a looming deadline to make headway on the project. By the end of the year, he must begin construction of the arena by the end of the year to qualify for tax-exempt bond financing, according to an Internal Revenue Service ruling. To take effect, a 20-year naming-rights deal with Barclay’s, the British bank, also requires him to begin construction of the arena by year’s end.

Mr. Bradley, 65, is now a managing director at Allen & Company, an investment bank in New York. In the interview, he said that he was not interested in returning to basketball in any capacity and that he had no plans to re-enter politics.

Asked if he would accept a government position if President Obama offered him one, Bradley said no. “I’m a fan of President Obama, but I’m happy with what I’m doing now,” he said.


http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/bradley-wants-nets-to-play-in-newark-not-brooklyn/

[ZippyTheChimp]

So then we get the arena by exploiting Ratner.We don't get the arena; Ratner does. He has it locked up for 30 years, with an option to extend it.

I don't know how people can't get excited about this, and opposing it is just stunning.I haven't read one post in this thread advocating that AY should not be developed, but that doesn't mean anything that's proposed should be accepted.

[BrooklynLove]

Do you fill out a customer service survey when you have complaints or when you have complements?

[BrooklynLove]

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/bradley-wants-nets-to-play-in-newark-not-brooklyn/

More empty cheerleading. Makes for entertaining reading but contains zero eplanation beyond the general comment that the economy is difficult right now. If the argument is that Ratner can't get it done then we'll see.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Do you fill out a customer service survey when you have complaints or when you have complements?

What does this have to do with the price of fish?

More empty cheerleading.

LOL.

[Shadly]

In response to the Newark jabber. It's city status has improved of late. There's actually a nice little art scene developing there. Go there for the Portoguese festival. That's pretty fun. Especially if you are fond of Brazilian girls and pig roasts (in whatever combination suites you).

Sports teams don't need to be located in desirable places to succeed (re. Cleveland, Cincinatti, Nassau). Sports teams need highways, mass transit, a decent venue and a large population that is sympathetic to their sport. Newark has three of those things, and lately I don't think the Knicks have a choke hold on the New York fan base when it comes to Basketball.

Brooklyn still makes the most sense though.

[lofter1]

Brooklyn makes sense at what cost? Both to taxpayers and ticket buyers?

No doubt all of Ratner's projections were made on the financial situation pre-crash. All you have to do is look at Yankee Stadium with the swath of empty high-priced seats to know that those numbers no longer apply.

Bottom line is that Ratner will probably come out just fine if he can finance the BK arena and get it built. It's the rest of us who might not fare so well.

[ZippyTheChimp]

As a general rule, sports teams don't do much for a city not in need of revitalization, with an already well-established entertainment base. The money that a population has budgeted for entertainment would remain constant, but just be distributed differently among the various venues.

A city such as Baltimore benefited from Camden Yards because it attracted much needed entertainment spending. Such is not the case in NY metro. Fans are just as likely to go to Jets and Giants games in the Meadowlands as to a stadium within the city. And there are Knicks, Rangers, Yankee and Met fans from outside the city.

Contrary to what Marty Markowitz would have us believe, Brooklyn didn't collapse when the Dodgers left. He is just relating fan reaction during that era. People born later couldn't care less. Note the negative reaction of Met fans to the branding of Citifield as a Dodgers (Jackie Robinson) stadium that didn't display any Met history.

Sports franchises use fan hysteria to force municipalities to finance new stadiums. It was even done at the so-called privately funded YS and Citifield, which still wound up costing taxpayers anywhere from 500 to 750 million dollars. Look at the St Louis Rams. For over 40 years they were branded with Los Angeles. It's still strange for me to think of them as anything but the LA Rams. Both Rams and Raider ownership (who were in LA from 1982-94) tried to extort new stadiums from the city, which refused, so they left for St Louis and Oakland.

Despite the absence of NFL football from metro LA, the area hasn't collapsed.

[BrooklynLove]

http://barclayscenter.com/pdf/5_15forestcityratnerstatement.pdf

[JCMAN320]

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/32/20/32_20_mm_yards_cash.html?comm=1

Bloomy to Bruce: Enough already

By Mike McLaughlin
The Brooklyn Paper

Mayor Bloomberg dealt Bruce Ratner a blow on Wednesday, saying that the city would not subsidize the Atlantic Yards project with additional public funds.

The city has already pledged $230 million for infrastructure and land-acquisition costs at the embattled arena and skyscraper project — but Bloomberg dashed Ratner’s hopes for more.

“We’ve done everything,” he said in response to a reporter’s question at his daily availability on Wednesday. “We’re going to have a tough time balancing our budget.”

The mayor did add that the city needs the project, but said, “We’re not putting money in. We’re going to invest our money in better schools and in safer streets and in better parks and everything else.”

The mayor’s thriftiness is bad news for Forest City Ratner, which in recent months had been lobbying for more taxpayer aid from the city and state to help revive construction on the $4-billion complex in Prospect Heights, where work has been stalled since December.

But Ratner, speaking at a “topping out” ceremony at his 80 DeKalb Avenue project, claimed he will start the basketball arena this fall.

“We don’t need anything more [from the city and state],” he said.

Updated 04:09 pm, May, 21 2009: Story was updated to add a comment from Bruce Ratner obtained at Thursday morning's event at another of his buildings.
©2009 The Brooklyn Paper


http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20090522/INS/905219969/1006

[BrooklynLove]

Great news - means less moaning from anti-AY sheep.

[BrooklynRider]

Ratner also stated he would move ahead with "the arena" - not with the full development of that triangular component of the development. A stand alone arena is not what was proposed. We started with a rather beautiful glass structure by Gehry. It then became a big mess with that "Miss Brooklyn" thing. We lost almost all of the commercial space and suddenly it was residential buildings above an arena (yeah, everyone wants to live above an arena). If he's only building the arena, what design is he going to use?

You can bet that the neighborhood that is being razed due to "blight" will be replaced with big ugly truck bays and mortar walls. The building will turn its back on the very area that Ratner claims he want to revitalize. It's a very "Joe Sitt : Coney Island" scenario.

Brooklyn sure seems to get it absolutely wrong. We have the worst developers operating here and no checks and balances on their horrendous plans and behavior.

[BrooklynLove]

Let's slow down a minute. What is the last OFFICIAL rendering of the arena we have seen?

[CitiesfromSpace]

The brick one that supposedly paid homage to the area's history was speculated on by the Post:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01262009/photos/yards2.jpg

But I don't think there's been anything official since Ms. Brooklyn.

[aural iNK]

Here are the most recent official renderings, from last year:

http://www.atlanticyards.com/graphics/photos/gehry1_may08.jpg

http://www.atlanticyards.com/graphics/photos/gehry3_may08.jpg

http://www.atlanticyards.com/graphics/photos/gehry4_may08.jpg

[ablarc]

^ Insufficiently tall.

[195Broadway]

^
^
Scrap heap comes to mind.

[scumonkey]

Bye-bye Frank Gehry. Hello Ellerbe Becket? (http://www.dddb.net/php/latestnews_Linked.php?id=2060)

Ratner says he is going to finance the Barclays Center arena and break ground for it this Summer or Fall, yet the developer doesn't know who is designing his arena, what it will look like and what it will cost. But it seems rather clear that it won't be a Frank Gehry arena, which will upset his arena sponsors, particulary Barclays Bank, and wreck the arena's financing model. BROOKLYN BOUND?: (http://tinyurl.com/newratner)
Sports Business Journal

Don’t be surprised if Ellerbe Becket becomes the lead designer for Barclays Center, the Nets’ much-delayed arena project.

Renowned civic architect Frank Gehry originally designed the building. Kansas City-based Ellerbe, designer for the two newest NBA arenas, in Charlotte and Memphis, has been consulting for the Nets for the past three years and is making adjustments to arena blueprints to see how it can be built at a lower cost.

Team officials declined to confirm Ellerbe’s involvement or whether Gehry is still part of the project.

Nets owner Bruce Ratner told the New York media May 15 that he expects construction to start this fall after what team officials call the final legal action against the Atlantic Yards development was dismissed in court. Ratner still needs to sell bonds to finance the project, another big hurdle to overcome.

Ratner anticipates Barclays Center will carry a final price tag of about $800 million, about $150 million less than previous estimates.

Ellerbe Becket principal Bill Crockett said, “Our work has been ongoing, and we have not been advised of what they will accept and when it will be released.”
(Emphasis added.)

[scumonkey]

Architectural firm Ellerbe Becket tapped to reevaluate Frank Gehry's Atlantic Yards arena design

BY Jotham Sederstrom (http://www.nydailynews.com/authors/Jotham%20Sederstrom)
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Wednesday, May 27th 2009, 4:00 AM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/05/27/alg_yards.jpg

A model of architect Frank Gehry's design for the Atlantic Yards project.


A midwest architectural firm that has designed dozens of professional sports arenas could bump Frank Gehry and his glitzy arena vision from the Atlantic Yards project.
Ellerbe Becket, a Missouri-based firm, was tapped last fall to reevaluate the extravagant arena design Gehry conceived for developer Forest City Ratner to lure the NBA's New Jersey Nets to Brooklyn.
"We are working with Forest City," said Bill Crockett, Ellerbe Becket's sports director. "We've been working with them for some time, doing some analysis for them on the arena."
Headquartered in Kansas City, Ellerbe Becket is known for designs that are more cost-efficient than Gehry's projects, which tend to be full of ruffles and flourishes.
The firm, which has designed basketball arenas for the NBA's teams in Memphis and Charlotte, was hired around the same time Gehry axed nearly every one of his employees who had been working on the stalled project.
A Forest City Ratner spokesman Tuesday insisted the firm had been hired to implement cost-cutting measures for the estimated $800 million arena, but observers familiar with how Frank Gehry works suspect that could soon change.
"Because Gehry's designs are fairly complex, any real changes would probably end up looking like an Ellerbe Becket project," said a former Gehry architect who worked on Atlantic Yards until being laid off late last year. "[Gehry's projects are] relatively difficult to execute."
Ratner spokesman Joe DePlasco said a reevaluation of Gehry's design would be completed by July, at which point Ratner will determine whether the world-famous architect would remain on the project.
He insisted Gehry is now the master architect of the $4.2 billion Atlantic Yards project, which was expected to include the arena and 16 residential and commercial towers to be developed in Prospect Heights.
"As we have said repeatedly, we are talking to a lot of people in an effort to identify savings given the realities of the current economic environment," said DePlasco. "We should complete the process this summer and will have more to say about it at that time."
Daniel Goldstein, a member of the anti-Atlantic Yards group Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn, questioned Ratner's stated commitment to break ground at the site as early as September, even though a final design for the arena has yet to be determined.
"[Developer Bruce] Ratner claims he can finance [the] arena and break ground this coming fall," Goldstein said. "That's impossible. He doesn't even know who's designing the arena or what it costs."
jsederstrom@nydailynews.com

[lofter1]

Lame

[kz1000ps]

Super ultra lame.

[CitiesfromSpace]

That's the most liberal usage of the word "reevaluate" I've ever seen. I'm guessing "ritualistically slaughter and dance over its corpse" didn't hold up that well in editorial meetings :rolleyes:

[Travis]

That's a lot of words to just basically say, "we want something real cheap."

[BrooklynLove]

0:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcv5e6xX25I

[scumonkey]

^ no one jumping to conclusions here...

[BrooklynRider]

That was the one block in the whole plan that I liked.

I think that there will be a bigger community backlash against a stand alone arena - particularly if it includes parking - than what we saw with the overall AY proposal. Ratner is just too arrogant (and cheap) a developer fpr such a large site (as he has proven). Compare him to Wallentas and Two Trees development. Wallentas listens to the community, addresses the concerns, and wins over critics. Ratner tries to steamroll the process. Marty Markowitz end up looking like a fool and Leticia James looks like the one with vision.

Ratner is threatening to cut Beekman Tower short. He's undermined his own credibility on designing what he proposes.

An arena without a larger development, will get much more critical scrutiny than his last fiasco.

[BrooklynRider]

I don't know if this is "new" info...

1. Pedestrian Bridge on 6th Avenue across the yards.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1013.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1013.jpg)

2. The ramp to track level. It was labeled "construction ramp". You can note the idle site and determine is that is a misnomer.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1019.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1019.jpg)

3. The Pedestrian Bridge to nowhere, but I like this photo...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1021.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1021.jpg)

4. The aforementioned ramp. It's seems both it and the project are on a downward incline.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1022.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1022.jpg)

NOTE: I'm taking Gehry's name out of the thread title. This thing has been up in the air so long, it is fair to assume that the proposal and concept ae stale.

[BrooklynRider]

There is a new "affordable housing" development going up on Atlantic Ave & 6th Avenue (just across the street from the site).

1. We know it is "affordable housing" and at the edge of downright "indigent shelter" based on the high quality signage.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1025.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1025.jpg)


2. Designed by...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1024.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1024.jpg)

3.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1018.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1018.jpg)

4.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/th_DSCN1023.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/BrooklynRiderRob/?action=view&current=DSCN1023.jpg)

[lbjefferies]

Congratulations Brooklyn NIMBYs! Enjoy your crap architecture.

Gehry's totally underated design could have been financed and under construction two years ago, and it could have been a beacon amongst a borough full of developments that can best be described as dog feces. I mean seriously, has there been one halfway decent new building built east of the East River in the last 70 years? Brooklynites should be embarrased.

[BrooklynRider]

There is enough going on for anyone to recognize that Raner is not the only player in Brooklyn. Toren looks fantasticand so does Meier on the Park - that'sTWO. I call both of those developments "evidence" that this downtown wont rise or fall with the Ratner boat.

[scumonkey]

OUT_______________________________________________ _____ IN
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/06/04/nyregion/05gehry2_600.JPG http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/06/04/nyregion/05gehry_600.JPG
Frank Gehry (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/frank_gehry/index.html?inline=nyt-per) is out as the architect for the Barclays Center arena, the centerpiece of the long-delayed and financially challenged Atlantic Yards (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/a/atlantic_yards_brooklyn/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) development in Brooklyn, according to government officials and real estate executives who have been briefed on the plans.
The exotic, $1 billion glass-walled design by Mr. Gehry, the award-winning architect behind the Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles (http://www.laphil.com/about/wdch_overview.cfm) and the Guggenheim Museum (http://www.guggenheim.org/bilbao) in Bilbao, Spain, has been replaced with a less-expensive, $800 million arena.
The new design comes from Ellerbe Becket (http://www.ellerbebecket.com/), an architectural firm based in Kansas City, Mo., that specializes in convention centers, stadiums and arenas, and designed Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis, where the Indiana Pacers play. Officials who have seen the latest design for the Brooklyn arena say that while it resembles Conseco Fieldhouse, it also bears a likeness to an “airplane hangar.”
The developer of Atlantic Yards, Bruce C. Ratner, chief executive of the Forest City Ratner Companies, scrapped Mr. Gehry’s plans primarily for economic reasons. The $4 billion project has been hobbled by lawsuits, a recession and its own ambitious goal to build 6,400 apartments, 40 percent of which would be reserved for low- to middle-income families. Forest City Ratner was the development partner for the Midtown headquarters for The New York Times Company.
Mr. Ratner, who won a major court victory over opponents to Atlantic Yards last month, is racing to pare costs and start construction of the 20,000-seat arena by the end of the year, when his right to use tax-exempt financing expires. Officially, the developer says the arena is supposed to be ready in 2011 as the new home for the Nets, who will move to Brooklyn from the Meadowlands in New Jersey.
There have been rumors since December, often based on comments by Mr. Gehry, that he was no longer involved with the arena. However, Mr. Ratner, who also had Mr. Gehry design a residential skyscraper in Lower Manhattan, had so far declined to make it public. But in recent days, the developer has been circulating the new design among state and city officials as he seeks formal approval of the changes.
Mr. Gehry is still the master planner for the 22-acre development, which is at Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues. But in a concession to the collapsing commercial and residential real estate markets, the developer has delayed most of the housing and a proposed office tower. In an interview last month, Mr. Ratner said he planned to start the first residential tower, which would contain a large percentage of units for low-, moderate- and middle-income families, about six to nine months after work began on the arena.


(YUK)

[ZippyTheChimp]

The new design comes from Ellerbe Becket, an architectural firm based in Kansas City, Mo., that specializes in convention centers, stadiums and arenas, and designed Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis, where the Indiana Pacers play. Officials who have seen the latest design for the Brooklyn arena say that while it resembles Conseco Fieldhouse, it also bears a likeness to an “airplane hangar.”

Conseco Fieldhouse
http://basketball.ballparks.com/NBA/IndianaPacers/newfront.jpg

Least Cost Option (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Floyd_Bennett_hangers_jeh.JPG)

[scumonkey]

cookie cutter:cool:

[BrooklynLove]

But happening.

[ablarc]

In a perfect world, they would force him to build Gehry's version.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Quonset rules!

[BrooklynRider]

So basically, he is sticking to his "Atlantic Center" vision for that area.

[lofter1]

Man the Barricades!

Stop this pile from being built.

Brooklynites should pillory Ratner.

Anybody want to be that this will end up with surface parking lots & parking structures nearby?

I hope Gehry keeps a diary.

[kz1000ps]

So basically, he is sticking to his "Atlantic Center" vision for that area.

Lord have mercy on us all.

[ZippyTheChimp]

So what this boils down to is an NBA owner gets a sweetheart deal to move his team to a mediocre arena, built at a prime transport hub.

Does this sound familiar?

[BrooklynLove]

It's fine. The Gehry design was a bubble age easy credit wet dream. Get the NBA franchise here and all good things will follow. Brooklyn is to Manhattan as Honda is to GM.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Brooklyn is to Manhattan as Honda is to GM.Care to expand on that?

[BrooklynLove]

BK is growing, Manhattan is struggling to maintain.

[ZippyTheChimp]

That's the most ridiculous thing you've said to date.

[BrooklynLove]

Of course it is - as is everything else you don't agree with.

[Alonzo-ny]

BL normally I dont disagree too much with what you say but you are blindly supporting a extremely crap arena now for no reason other than its in Brooklyn.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Of course it is - as is everything else you don't agree with.When you wave pom-poms, you sound ridiculous.

That Honda-GM remark has no meaning at all to the situation. It's just rah-rah. So how can you expect it to be regarded otherwise?

[BrooklynRider]

Considering the hot air Ratner blew about Brooklyn deserving the finest and a place that can compete with MSG, this is the equivalent of a high school gymnasium.

[BrooklynRider]

Oh, and where's our green roof?

[BrooklynLove]

When you wave pom-poms, you sound ridiculous.

That Honda-GM remark has no meaning at all to the situation. It's just rah-rah. So how can you expect it to be regarded otherwise?

It means nothing to you b/c you don't understand it, and have no interest in entertaining the thought that you may not understand it, so just dismiss it. This is your M.O.

[BrooklynLove]

Considering the hot air Ratner blew about Brooklyn deserving the finest and a place that can compete with MSG, this is the equivalent of a high school gymnasium.

To be fair, this project has been delayed significantly by litigation, and the economic landscape has changed a lot over that time.

[Alonzo-ny]

The new design still costs $800m, only saving $200m.

[ZippyTheChimp]

It means nothing to you b/c you don't understand it, and have no interest in entertaining the thought that you may not understand it, so just dismiss it. This is your M.O.Maybe you should review my posts on this thread, the Jets thread, and others about similar projects before you conclude that I don't understand it.

This is a discussion forum, and posts get critical analysis all the time. Maybe you're the one who doesn't understand it, and are frustrated because you can't answer the criticism except with meaningless sound-bites.

If you can't take the criticism, don't post.

[dtolman]

Are there any renderings of the new plan for the arena complex?

I'm not a fan of deconstructionist designs - so I'm not terribly disappointed by the change in architect...

[avngingandbright]

As it may, BrooklynLove's comment is sited on Curbed this morning:



The De-Frankified Barclays Center React-o-Matic!


Friday, June 5, 2009, by Joey
http://curbed.com/uploads/2009_6_barclaysnew.jpg
Following yesterday's formal announcement (http://curbed.com/archives/2009/06/04/breaking_gehrys_atlantic_yards_arena_design_droppe d.php) of the junking of starchitect Frank Gehry's Atlantic Yards arena for a cheaper design, a look at how the Interweb is reacting to the new Barclays Center (http://curbed.com/archives/2009/06/04/new_gehryless_barclays_center_revealed.php), aka The Hangar:
1) "Bye-bye Gehry calls into question whether Barclays Bank, which bought $400 million naming rights for the starchitect's landmark design, will be willing to fork over that kind of cash for...an airplane hangar. It's doubtful." [Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn (http://www.developdontdestroy.org/php/latestnews_ArchiveDate.php)]
2) "It's fine. The Gehry design was a bubble age easy credit wet dream. Get the NBA franchise here and all good things will follow. Brooklyn is to Manhattan as Honda is to GM." [Wired New York (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4322&page=196)]
3) "Frank Gehry is designing the individual buildings and the larger development to complement the surrounding communities, creating a sense of scale that fits the low-rise feel of nearby neighborhoods and the more urban feel of downtown Brooklyn."
[B]4) "None of the news coverage this morning notices that, as I pointed out last night, that the rendering omits the much-touted Urban Room, a large, glass-enclosed public space (http://www.atlanticyards.com/html/footer/new_images/olin13.html). Given the hold-up in constructing the flagship Building 1 (formerly Miss Brooklyn), the Urban Room became an impossibility and, I'd contend, so became Gehry's design." [Atlantic Yards Report (http://atlanticyardsreport.blogspot.com/2009/06/gehrys-design-was-impossible-so.html)]
5) "I really get a feel for the scale and massing and architectural character with those 'ghost towers'. The arena itself is astonishingly banal. If I had seen it on any other blog, I would have assumed it was in Houston." [Curbed commenter 'doc' (http://curbed.com/archives/2009/06/04/new_gehryless_barclays_center_revealed.php#reader_ comments)]
6) "i guess if lebron wants to play in a frank gehry building in 2011 he better take a basketball with him to disney hall in la" [Twitter/Trojan_Talking (http://twitter.com/Trojan_Talking/statuses/2041598211)]
· Atlantic Yards coverage (http://www.curbed.com/tags/atlantic-yards) [Curbed]

[ZippyTheChimp]

I read the Atlantic Yard Report (http://atlanticyardsreport.blogspot.com/2009/06/gehrys-design-was-impossible-so.html) earlier this morning.

Given that Forest City has been working with Ellerbe Becket for three years, did the developer--when the plan was approved in 2006--really intend to build the Gehry design?


“The current Atlantic Yards plan bears increasingly less resemblance to the project that was approved in 2006,” said Vin Cipolla, the president of the Municipal Art Society [MAS]. “The replacement of Gehry further reduces the public benefits of the project, which urgently needs re-evaluation and oversight.”


The MAS, in its testimony on the project, said it couldn't support it without major changes, though it praised Gehry's design. In fact, the MAS suggested that, with a north-south re-orientation of the arena, Fifth Avenue could be kept open.

The arena has, in fact, been reoriented, as the graphic at top suggests, but there's been no evidence that the Empire State Development Corporation is reconsidering the closure of Fifth Avenue.

Meanwhile, the Regional Plan Association (RPA), which has been increasingly critical of the project, must now realize how it was played, given its testimony at the 8/23/06 hearing on the Draft Environmental Impact Statement:

Regional Plan Association supports construction of the signature western block of the project largely as proposed. This block, featuring the basketball arena and four towers, is an excellent example of city-making that will bring tremendous benefits to the area. These initial towers have been designed by the expert hand of Frank Gehry and, along with the arena, will become iconic images representing the borough soon after their construction.

[BrooklynLove]

Maybe you should review my posts on this thread, the Jets thread, and others about similar projects before you conclude that I don't understand it.

This is a discussion forum, and posts get critical analysis all the time. Maybe you're the one who doesn't understand it, and are frustrated because you can't answer the criticism except with meaningless sound-bites.

If you can't take the criticism, don't post.

i used to read your posts until it became clear that you're only really interested in reading your own posts as well. that you think my comment is about taking criticism is telling. you don't listen and you think that you know everything about everything. any discussion with you is about starting with your conclusion and you beating everyone over the head with it until they relent or lose interest.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
I've asked you before what it is that you do that is different.

You've taken a position that you want an NBA team in Brooklyn, and nothing else matters.

I'm not the only one who's noticed.

You're the one that dismissed opposing viewpoints as cheerleading, and then followed it by posting a Ratner press release. Was the irony lost on you? Yes, I read my posts; maybe you should read yours.

Every step of the way in this thread, as the project has morphed into something unrecognizable, you've rationalized with things like "but happening."

How does "Brooklyn is to Manhattan as Honda is to GM" promote a discussion? It seems to dismiss discussion.

Grow up. This isn't Brownstoner, or wherever else you got your "reputation."

If you've got anything further to add, send me a PM.

[scumonkey]

Of course it is - as is everything else you don't agree with.
He's not the only one who disagrees with you- at least not this time...
The new design is worse than crap ;)

[lofter1]

A design befitting of those who think anything new is OK for Brooklyn -- quality be damned.

[fioco]

Because of their experience with professional sport arenas, it sounds logical that Ellerbe Becket would have been a collaborator in the early stages of Frank Gehry's design process. But it's incredibly difficult to conceive how an economic reduction went from Frank Gehry to an Indiana fieldhouse. Calatrava, to his credit, has fought to stay engaged in the value-engineering modifications to the WTC transit hub.

At least the Conseco FieldHouse was born from a concept: a celebration of Indiana high school basketball where a small rural school could send five players to the state championship. Conseco FieldHouse played on myth and memory to defend its fieldhouse design. But what is happening in Brooklyn? The PR well has been poisioned by many sides. I'm skeptical to believe anything or anyone because the hidden agendas alone could build this project.

The development process in New York City is broken. The damage is strewn throughout every borough: Atlantic Yards, Hudson Yards, the WTC, the list goes on. Integrity (w/ transparency) is a PR mirage, a lie told so often, it goes down easy, like koolaid. Major reform is needed at both public and private levels, from public policy, design review, financing, and community benefit.

Right now, all are players and all lose. Not a pretty sight.

[BrooklynLove]

He's not the only one who disagrees with you- at least not this time...
The new design is worse than crap ;)

A design befitting of those who think anything new is OK for Brooklyn -- quality be damned.

Ok but that wasn't the point of contention. This was -

Brooklyn is to Manhattan as Honda is to GM.

[scumonkey]

Brooklyn is to Manhattan as Honda is to GM.
Can't agree with you on that point either :cool:

[ZippyTheChimp]

Ok but that wasn't the point of contention. This was -

And I think it's a ridiculous statement.

So what? If you think otherwise, justify it. You already have the analogy wrong if you think I was referring to the Jets stadium in Manhattan when I said,

"Does this seem familiar."

The Jets Stadium wasn't proposed on a "prime transport hub" like the Nets arena. It was on a railyard with no existing mass transit. The similarity I was getting at was MSG in the 1960s.

I wouldn't be surprised if many on this forum assume that the fight over the demolition of Penn Station and the building of MSG was a close one. In reality, except for the few preservationists, Penn Sta never had a chance. MSG was welcomed enthusiastically as the savior of Midtown, the city giving them the $10 million tax-break they still hold.

Look what happened. Areas of Midtown without the arena moved ahead; while MSG contributed little to its surroundings. The arena made money for owner and investor, but few jobs were created. Ironically, today MSG with its tax break is a roadblock to development.

The same enthusiasm that existed for a new home for the Knicks and Rangers is alive and well today at AY. It's all smoke and mirrors. What you have now is an anti-urban arena plan, the driving force being how Ratner can rescue a profit, rather than what's best for Brooklyn. And it's ugly.

BrooklynLove has only been here a couple of years. I don't know if he ever read the first dozen or so pages of this thread, but I suspect he hasn't. He may assume that all of those in opposition to this project have always felt that way. Reading this thread from the other end might open his mind.

5 1/2 years ago, I pulled this passage from a Muschamp review:Instead of sitting isolated in a parking lot, the stadium will be tucked into the urban fabric, just as buildings surround a Baroque square.

So much for that.

[TREPYE]

Yet another farce piece of architecture for Brooklyn. Even though the borough does get some national identity back with its own sports team I could not think of any worse sports venue to showcase it in.... As a Brooklynite I would be embarrased to call this my boroughs arena.

[lofter1]

Indianapolis is dreary. When that city becomes the mark to hit or the place used as a comparison then things have hit a very sad spot.

So please tell me: What, other than the pssibility that it might get built (and create jobs) can anybody point out what is GOOD about this new Arena proposal?

[BrooklynRider]

A design befitting of those who think anything new is OK for Brooklyn -- quality be damned.

double snap!

[BrooklynLove]

I'll take mediocre design if a professional sports team comes with it. And it's better than what is there right now, which is commonly not the case in Manhattan where they regularly destroy magnificent buildings and replace them with meh.

[BrooklynLove]

Yet another farce piece of architecture for Brooklyn. Even though the borough does get some national identity back with its own sports team I could not think of any worse sports venue to showcase it in.... As a Brooklynite I would be embarrased to call this my boroughs arena.

The arena design is fine. Get some perspective.

By the way, it looks nicer than MSG.

[lofter1]

The arena design is fine.


"Fine" :confused:

Would a proud Brooklynite would actually say that?

[ramvid01]

By the way, it looks nicer than MSG.

MSG is hardly the example of architecture that you would gauge any other arena on.

[BrooklynLove]

lofter - one just did say it. I'm 3 generations of proud Brooklynites - one got the Dodgers at 3rd Ave, one got them at Empire Blvd, and this one is getting the Nets at the nexus of Brooklyn. The arena design IS fine on a relative basis. However the return of a pro sports frachise to Brooklyn is exceedingly beyond fine. To focus on the former to the exclusion of the later is irrational.

ramvid - MSG is a highly relevant comparison when there are people crying bloody murder on this site as to the appearance of the design and the sanctity of Brooklyn yet the analog in Manhattan is a POS in comparison.

i understand that the focus of this website is architecture and accept that but there still needs to be some grasp of reality here.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Absolutely no one here, not one person, has stated that the design of MSG is fine. So the comparison might be relevant, but not in the way you think.

[BiggieSmalls]

I wouldn't be surprised if many on this forum assume that the fight over the demolition of Penn Station and the building of MSG was a close one. In reality, except for the few preservationists, Penn Sta never had a chance. MSG was welcomed enthusiastically as the savior of Midtown, the city giving them the $10 million tax-break they still hold.


MSG got the Property tax Exemption in 1982. A Full 20 years after they built it.

http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/textfiles/Res%200090-2006.htm?CFID=2695374&CFTOKEN=77369741

[ZippyTheChimp]

MSG opened in 1968, so what's your point?

[ablarc]

They were able to pay taxes for 14 years?

What happened to change that?

[ZippyTheChimp]

The city wanted the Knicks and Rangers to stay.

[ablarc]

^ And they would have been stupid enough to actually leave?

[BiggieSmalls]

MSG opened in 1968, so what's your point?

your comment left the impression that MSG got the tax break when Penn was torn down which was not the case.

Your comment though was largely correct

In reality, except for the few preservationists, Penn Sta never had a chance. MSG was welcomed enthusiastically as the savior of Midtown, the city giving them the $10 million tax-break they still hold.

Koch in his infinite wisdom gave out the property tax break a full 14 years later. While tearing down Penn and building the hockey puck was a tragedy most of the news reports give the impression that the MSG project was not hard fought and was in fact welcomed. Just that the "tax breaks" were not a part of the initial development.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
I see your point; I should have worded it differently.

The overall picture I was drawing was that, until recent times, the popular regard for the Knicks/Rangers as economic stimulators was similar to what is going on with the Nets.

There's an IBO report just out (numbers not released) that states the city may lose money on its investment.

[BrooklynLove]

Absolutely no one here, not one person, has stated that the design of MSG is fine. So the comparison might be relevant, but not in the way you think.

How is it not relevant? People are screaming bloody murder here re the arena design and how Brooklyn is getting shafted. One need not look further than a few miles to find inferior or substantially similar designs (MSG, Nassau Coliseum, Fleet Center, Wachovia Center, etc). And MSG is especially relevant b/c Brooklyn is getting a better arena while Manhattan is getting lipstick on a pig with it's MSG reno.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I didn't say not relevant. I said not relevant in the way you think. You said:

ramvid - MSG is a highly relevant comparison when there are people crying bloody murder on this site as to the appearance of the design and the sanctity of Brooklyn yet the analog in Manhattan is a POS in comparison.

What are you saying, that people who live in Manhattan can't comment on anything that's not uglier than MSG? And I suppose people that live outside the city should shut up entirely.

Are you trying to set up some Manhattan vs Brooklyn conflict? In that case, I suppose my family's five generations in Brooklyn trumps your three. Of course, that's nonsense. Neither one of us have a monopoly on opinions of what's best for Brooklyn.

I repeat, no one here has defended MSG, its design, present location, or renovation plans. That renovation, by the way, is being privately financed. The public money for Barclay doesn't come out of Brooklyn Borough Hall; it's from the entire city.

The relevance you may not have intended is that both arenas are ugly.

[lofter1]

Civic pride reduced to a celebration of tax breaks, public give-aways and a quonset hut decorated with corporate signage and scattered trees

:(

[BiggieSmalls]

This conversation has neglected on of the real shining examples of How an arena has rejuvenated a dilapidated down town.

The Pru Center in Newark is a great arena from a functionality and design perspective and has really added life to what was a sorry area not 15 minutes train ride from Manhattan.

Built in 18 months and designed by HOK it is very functional and close to transportation and costs under 400 mil to build. The Nets should probably move there if Ratner didnt have designs on flipping the team once it got settled in BK.. But that is a different debate.

[TREPYE]

The arena design is fine. Get some perspective.

By the way, it looks nicer than MSG.

OK, by your standards its "fine". By mine its a farce POS architectural figment that does not have any Brooklyn character in it. If you are justifying the design by some payoff to having a pro team back in Brooklyn then thats "fine", I guess. I am not finding this design as easy to accept as you are. But then again you have somehow justified 111 Lawrence St. which shows that you have a high tolerance for putrid archtiecture in your borough.....So I guess me and you are not in the same page of what is acceptable for Brooklyn.

As far as the MSG comparison, the point is moot when you have compare anything to feces....

[ZippyTheChimp]

I thought we all agreed to hold the excremental descriptions to a minimum.

Although I can see the point. :)

[Alonzo-ny]

By mine its a farce POS architectural figment that does not have any Brooklyn character in it.

Perfect description.

[BrooklynLove]

OK, by your standards its "fine". By mine its a farce POS architectural figment that does not have any Brooklyn character in it. If you are justifying the design by some payoff to having a pro team back in Brooklyn then thats "fine", I guess. I am not finding this design as easy to accept as you are. But then again you have somehow justified 111 Lawrence St. which shows that you have a high tolerance for putrid archtiecture in your borough.....So I guess me and you are not in the same page of what is acceptable for Brooklyn.

As far as the MSG comparison, the point is moot when you have compare anything to feces....

or maybe you just care more about architecture than brooklyn.

you're being irrational. compare the design to all other NBA venues.

as for 111 lawrence, all that i've said is that it's turning out less bad then it initially appeared. read my posts if you need a refresher.

[BiggieSmalls]

How do they need near a billion dollars to build this arena?

Arenas are routinely built for half that ON THE HIGH END.

The Pru Center was 400 mil and that was considered a lot.

A NBA sized arena with 20,000 seats should be under half Billion

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
The "public" component of the project has been stripped away, to the point where Eminent Domain is a joke. Ratner long ago removed commercial buildings and the jobs they bring; jobs created are now listed as job-years - one person working 5 years = 5 jobs. Construction companies will support any construction; you could propose $4 billion worth of outhouses. There's no commitment in writing to build out the entire project.

What is left is the value of bringing the Nets to Brooklyn. If the ROI is so good, why is Ratner racing to begin construction so that it can be entirely financed with tax-free bonds. Ratner is also lobbying for stimulus money.

You mentioned the success of the Pru Center in Newark. That discussion is dispersed in this thread. It's working in Newark because, unlike Brooklyn, Newark needed to attract consumer spending. The argument by proponents is that the Nets would be more successful in Brooklyn. Well of course the NETS would do better, but the economic impact would be far less.

The Yankees were bought for $10 million 35 years ago; they are now worth $1.3 billion. Look at the neighborhood.

[TonyO]

NY Times
June 9, 2009
Architecture

Battle Between Budget and Beauty, Which Budget Won

By NICOLAI OUROUSOFF

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/06/09/arts/atlantspan.jpg
The firm Ellerbe Becket’s design for a Nets arena in Brooklyn, viewed from Atlantic Avenue. A version by Frank Gehry has been abandoned.

The recent news that the developer Forest City Ratner had scrapped Frank Gehry’s design for a Nets arena in central Brooklyn is not just a blow to the art of architecture. It is a shameful betrayal of the public trust, one that should enrage all those who care about this city.

Whatever you may have felt about Mr. Gehry’s design — too big, too flamboyant — there is little doubt that it was thoughtful architecture. His arena complex, in which the stadium was embedded in a matrix of towers resembling falling shards of glass, was a striking addition to the Brooklyn skyline; it was also a fervent effort to engage the life of the city below.

A new design by the firm Ellerbe Becket has no such ambitions. A colossal, spiritless box, it would fit more comfortably in a cornfield than at one of the busiest intersections of a vibrant metropolis. Its low-budget, no-frills design embodies the crass, bottom-line mentality that puts personal profit above the public good. If it is ever built, it will create a black hole in the heart of a vital neighborhood.

But what’s most offensive about the design is the message it sends to New Yorkers. Architecture, we are being told, is something decorative and expendable, a luxury we can afford only in good times, or if we happen to be very rich. What’s most important is to build, no matter how thoughtless or dehumanizing the results. It is the kind of logic that kills cities — and that has been poisoning this one for decades.

I suppose we should have seen this coming. The scale and location of the project posed serious challenges — challenges that could not be solved by the conventional development formulas. Arenas are notorious black holes in urban neighborhoods, sitting empty most of the year and draining the life around them. And in this case, the arena would dominate a major intersection and anchor a dense 22-acre residential development several blocks to the east.

Mr. Gehry began by asking a simple question: Is it possible to integrate an arena of this size into the city? Many architects would attempt to disguise the structure behind banners and billboards. Mr. Gehry’s solution was more inventive: to envelop the arena in the fabric of the city itself.

He began by surrounding the arena with four residential towers — essentially burying it in the middle of the triangular block at the southeast corner of Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues. A glass-enclosed public space, several stories high, projected out from one of the towers toward the intersection, like the prow of a ship. An oval lawn, surrounded by a running track, covered the arena’s roof. Open only to the towers’ tenants, it nonetheless added to the feel that the building had been swallowed up by the city.

Perhaps the most ingenious aspect of the design was the way it met the street. Along Atlantic and Flatbush, where the bowl of the arena bulged out between the residential towers, Mr. Gehry clad it in panels of curved glass, so that people passing by could peer directly into the concourse. From certain perspectives, views opened up straight through the arena itself.

There were valid objections to the design. Some people argued that it was overscaled — traffic would be a nightmare — and that it would destroy the character of the neighborhood. But to those of us who defended it, Mr. Gehry’s design was an ingenious solution to a seemingly intractable problem, one that would provide a focal point for an area (and arguably a borough) that could use some cohesion. Like all great architecture, it challenged our assumptions of what a building of its type can do.

The rest of the story is a depressing illustration of how New York development gets done. While Forest City Ratner fought for more and more concessions from the city — demanding tax breaks, reducing the number of affordable housing units — Mr. Gehry was forced to trim back his design. First the rooftop park was dropped because it was too expensive. The prowlike public space was redesigned, then redesigned again, until it began to look like a conventional atrium.

Worst of all, the main tower at the intersection of Atlantic and Flatbush was stripped of much of its vitality. Once a dynamic composition of tumbling glass shards, it became a more static form of irregularly stacked boxes, one that failed to capture the energy of the traffic streaming by on both sides. Then the towers, too, began to disappear, one by one, until the arena bowl was left naked and exposed to the street.

Still, this was not enough. In a stunning bait-and-switch, Forest City Ratner (which was the development partner for The New York Times Company’s headquarters in Midtown) has now decided that it can’t afford an architect of Mr. Gehry’s stature. Neglecting to tell the public, the firm went out months ago and hired Ellerbe Becket, corporate architects known for producing generic, unimaginative buildings. And although it has refused to release details of the design, the renderings, obtained by The New York Times, tell you all you need to know.

A massive vaulted shed that rests on a masonry base, the arena is as glamorous as a storage warehouse. A rectangular window overlooks Atlantic, but without the other buildings it lacks the sense of mystery and surprise that was such an essential part of the Gehry design. A trapezoidal brick and glass box at the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush is obviously intended as an echo of Gehry’s public space. But Gehry’s room, several stories tall, soared over the intersection. Ellerbe Becket’s, lower to the ground, just sits there, adding nothing.

Building this monstrosity at such a critical urban intersection would be deadly. Clearly, the city would be better off with nothing. But what’s at issue here is more than the betrayal of a particular community, as tragic as that could be. It is the way the city makes decisions about large-sale development.

Typically, a developer comes to the city with big plans. Promises are made. Serious architects are brought in. The needs of the community, like ample parkland and affordable housing, are taken into account. Editorial boards and critics, like me, praise the design for its ambition.

Eventually, the project takes on a momentum of its own. The city and state, afraid of an embarrassing public failure, feel pressured to get the project done at any cost, and begin to make concessions. Given the time such developments take to build, sometimes a decade or more, we then hit the inevitable economic downturn. The developer pleads poverty. Desperate to avoid more economic bad news, government officials cut a deal.

It’s a familiar ending, made more nauseating because we have seen it so many times before. And it can’t be solved by simply crunching numbers. It demands a profound shift in mentality. What we have now is a system in which decent architecture and the economic needs of developers are in fundamental opposition. Until that changes, there will be more Atlantic Yards in our future.

[TonyO]

^ I don't usually agree with Nicholas O. on much, but that 1950's airplane hangar is hideous.

Ratner clearly felt he did his Gehry in Manhattan and Brooklyn be damned.

[BrooklynRider]

I hope this dies the Columbus Circle type of death that Boston Properties experienced. Better to have this ground remain as is for a future generation to develop. Ratner is not a visionary, not a friend of Brooklyn, and not an honest man.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Atlantic Mall South.

Ratnerville.

[scumonkey]

Pigeons leave behind better looking piles
At least the rain can wash those away :cool:

[sfenn1117]

That's a great editorial. Agreed 100%. This isn't Indianapolis. I wanted to believe in Ratner so badly throughout this whole process- but coming down to this, its sickening.

I don't want to say this, but I hope the Nets move to Newark, and not Brooklyn.

[BrooklynLove]

Maybe you should move to Newark then. If you don't like it then don't look at it. By the way, what did the Gehry design have to do with Brooklyn? It was about as unBrooklyn as it gets.

[scumonkey]

http://www.animationbuddy.com/Animation/Sports/Cheerleaders/Cheerleader_2.gif

[BrooklynLove]

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/cry-baby-girl-face.jpg

[ablarc]

By the way, what did the Gehry design have to do with Brooklyn? It was about as unBrooklyn as it gets.
Well, it showed promise of redefining Brooklyn by becoming its most promising landmark.

In 1887, what did the Eiffel Tower have to do with Paris?

[scumonkey]

^That is exactly what Most intelligent Brooklynites will feel like if this pile materializes.;)
^

[sfenn1117]

Maybe you should move to Newark then. If you don't like it then don't look at it. By the way, what did the Gehry design have to do with Brooklyn? It was about as unBrooklyn as it gets.

Ourousoff describes the situation perfectly. The Gehry plan was a landmark, filled a pivotal Brooklyn crossroads perfectly, and created an inviting space for the borough to be proud of.

The new plan is an oversized gymnasium that pretty much isolates this tract of land just as badly as railyards do. To copy a design based off INDIANA fieldhouses is embarassing. I would take Kansas City's Sprint Center, for example, over this. The intersection begs for something modern, original, and worthy of putting Brooklyn in the spotlight. Gehry was the man to do it.

For Ratner to stuff this pale, embarassing pile in our laps with a straight face is insulting to say the least. This is beyond a bait and switch.

[BrooklynLove]

brooklyn is defined by its historical lasting landmarks - the williamsburg bank building, the brooklyn bridge, prospect park, GAP arch, the brownstones. we don't need to be redefined by some irrelevant architectural study. if you're looking to redefine some place go to new jersey. ourousoff is an attention ho btw.

first people b**tch and moan about any development here, then they b**tch and moan about how slow it is going, then they b**tch and moan about cost cutting necessitated primarily by their b**tching and moaning.

if you don't like it, too bad. the people who actually have blood here and have experienced the multiple cycles of good and bad over the years won't be crying over a less pretty building. this constant irrational whining is starting to feel spoiled brattish. get over it. if you feel compelled to cry this much about it then it really doesn't mean that much to you b/c if it did you'd have enough perspective to see the full picture.

[ZippyTheChimp]

What was that you said about knowing it all?

[BrooklynLove]

i don't understand your question but my guess is that it has something to do with your ego.