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tmg
December 15th, 2003, 03:51 PM
Earlier today, I posted a comment suggesting civility after Kris made some truly inappropriate ad hominem attacks. My comment was quickly deleted. I don't know who erased my message, but I assume it was Kris.

I suggest that Kris, as one of the leaders of this site, cool his rhetoric, stop his unethical censorship, and allow the polite expression of opinion to flourish.

Kris
December 15th, 2003, 05:52 PM
Who are you and what do you know? Not much, obviously.

NoyokA
December 15th, 2003, 08:18 PM
I read your comment tmg, it was not out of bounds, it was deleted, and I can assure that it was not me.

TLOZ Link5
December 15th, 2003, 08:25 PM
Christian, I have a lot of respect for you, but sometimes your remarks really can be over the top. It wouldn't exactly kill you to act a bit more civilly.

Kris
December 15th, 2003, 09:28 PM
Forgive me if I don't adopt your consensual style, TLOZ Link5.

Stern, I'm not the one who got suspended. Keep up the opportunistic power struggle.

NoyokA
December 15th, 2003, 09:33 PM
Christian why dont you do the forum a favor and resign?

I would be happy to welcome back my friends who had left on your account.

Kris
December 15th, 2003, 09:39 PM
And who would those be? At least your motives are transparent - certainly more manifest than your "friends".

NoyokA
December 15th, 2003, 09:46 PM
I dont want a power struggle. I want you to stop bothering those members with an opposing viewpoint.

I mean seriously Chrisitian, if you wanted a power struggle I can promise you that the forum is on my condition.

Who's with me?

Kris
December 15th, 2003, 10:32 PM
As you well know, the only way I've bothered members with opposing viewpoints is through debate - however harsh the tone employed.

BPC has had a questionable and offensive behavior since his registration and received the treatment he deserved. One can be shocked at it only by reading very selectively. tmg has the nerve to teach manners while not having a clue or even searching for one. But at least this is the proper place for registering a complaint (unlike the other thread).

Stern's despicable exploitation of this "crisis" has a simple explanation: He once was so upset that he, a moderator, was moderated that he started deleting my posts and topics for the sake of it. Refusing to settle the matter amiably (arguing already that he'd win a popularity contest), he was suspended.

TLOZ Link5
December 16th, 2003, 01:25 AM
BPC might have been dealt with accordingly, but there are cases where you've jumped the gun. The most prominent recent instance for me was when Liz L voiced a very innocuous opinion about Cesar Pelli. Your response to her was something along the lines of "He's a hack, and you don't know jack." Forgive me if I'm the only one who thought what you said was a bit too harsh.

I'm not saying you should step down as moderator, nor am I trying to make enemies or take cheap shots as you accuse Stern of doing. This is, like you said, the proper thread to register a complaint and my complaint is merely that there have been times when you were way too heavy-handed in your criticisms.

Kris
December 16th, 2003, 04:25 AM
"He's a hack, and you don't know jack." A provocation that rimes. Frankly, I find it melodious. And fruitful since it spurred Liz L to be more straightforward.

Edward
December 16th, 2003, 01:23 PM
It is completely appropriate for tmg to voice his complaint in this section of the forum. That's why this section was created in the first place - to have a feedback from the members of the forum, to have a discussion on what this forum is and how it can be improved. However, I am troubled by the name of the thread - "What's wrong with this place?" - too depressing.

This forum approaches 1000 registered members, has daily active discussions, and obviously, from time to time there would be conflicts; but does it mean there is something wrong with "this place"? - I don't think so. Can the forum be improved? - sure it can; every member is encouraged to provide his/her comments and recommendations, and we can civilly discuss how to improve this place.

Regarding moderators, sometimes it is overlooked what a tremendous job they are doing. It's a difficult task - to keep this forum working smoothly, so, when discussing specific comments or decisions by a moderator, let's keep in mind the big picture.

Merry
December 17th, 2003, 08:06 AM
Christian why dont you do the forum a favor and resign?

I concur.

In my opinion, this forum has changed significantly for the worse since the arrival of Kris. Elaboration is tempting but not worth it.

Kris
December 17th, 2003, 08:45 AM
Yield to the temptation. It is necessary to explain when the change occurred as I've been an active member since the forum's birth (and to convince that you're not just another tartuffe with a personal gripe).

ZippyTheChimp
December 17th, 2003, 10:31 AM
The forum has changed, not because of Kris who has maintained his sometimes abrasive style from the beginning, but because it has become large.

Regarding the incident that led to this topic, Kris’s response to Liz L was harsh, but the debate should have been confined to them. BPC’s remarks were inappropriate, and when TMG jumped in the next day, the issue was already over. If an argument becomes disruptive to the forum, a moderator or Edward will eventually step in. TMG should have used the PM feature or started this topic.

So would the forum be better off without Kris? Consider the amount of maintenance it takes to keep this place running smoothly: posting relevant material, redirecting topics, eliminating duplicate material, and filtering out nonsense – all while participating in the discussions. Ever notice how long-dormant threads pop up with new information? We all know who is responsible for most of this.

What’s wrong with this place? To get a true evaluation, visit the competition, where thoughtful topics are inundated with childish replies - free expression and lots of fun for the participants, but useless for those seeking information. Some of those morons once found Wired NY too restrictive. This forum should evolve and improve, but it’s still the best place in town.

Tartuffe. I had to look that one up. :P

BPC
December 19th, 2003, 01:46 PM
Moderated sites are great in principle, but you need competent moderators. The main problem with this site is that the moderators combine ad hominem attacks and name-calling with censorship and deletions of anyone who tries to reasonably disagree with them. I have experienced this with both Zippy (who called me a "mindless NIMBY") and the not-very-Christian-like Christian (who called me a "NIMBY bitch"). Seeing as I have advocated in my posts an aggressive commercial redevelopment of the WTC site with tall buildings, the nasty name calling seems to be based solely on my handle and my objection to the West Street tunnel, a proposal that has also been opposed by, among others, the AAA of NY, the Straphangers Campaigtn, the Clean Air Campaign, Congressman Nadler, and many others who presumably represent interests beyond those of BPC. The problem is that neither Zippy nor Christian know enough about the issue to comment intelligently, so they have instead taken to deleting my posts (and closing threads). The moderators' behavior seems antithetical to the open exchange of info that I thought WIRED represented. I wonder how long Christian will take before deleting this post as well.

ZippyTheChimp
December 19th, 2003, 03:11 PM
Yes I called you a nimby. However, it was not ad hominem. You arrived at the forum with a confrontational attitiude. You were given advice by several members. Your response was to accuse several of us of having financial interests in the tunnel. When I did respond to your tunnel argument, you wondered if I was really a BPC resident - in simple terms you called me a liar. At that point, I shut down communication with you and called you a NIMBY. NIMBYs always seem to be calling their opponents liars, or accusing them of a profit motive.

The two tunnel threads were shut down pending further developments. You disappeared. When the thread was reopened to post an article, you emerged and immediately picked up where you left off. I posted some advice to you that you also ignored.

I happenned to be on the forum that day when your posts were deleted. They were repetitive of your last attack, and since neither Christian or I responded in kind (I assume it was Christian who deleted them), you ran to the NYCS forum and complained that your posts were being deleted at Wired NY.

You described one of my posts as homophobic. At first I reacted with outrage, but then realized you were just getting back at me. I stated as much in a subsequent post - letting the matter drop.

Instead of letting the matter drop with Christian, yesterday you posted this:


Sorry, the JFK link is never going to happen. As described in the article, the Governor has decided that the remaining 9/11 money is better spent burying four blocks of West Street. But I won't get re-started on that, or Christian might call me a "NIMBY bitch" again.

...to which he responded with a bland "poor thing."

You appear to be fishing for confrontation.

I have not deleted any of your posts, and those I have seen that were deleted had nothing to do with the topic.

BPC
December 19th, 2003, 05:18 PM
Your post WAS homophobic (as in gay = insult), but I accepted your explanation that it was not intentionally so and let it drop. Anyway, I was wrong to lump you and Christian together. Compared to Christian, Zippy, you are positively Gandhi-like. You are also correct that you never did delete my posts, but you did have your pal NYKnight kill an active discussion because you didn't like the way it was going, which is just plain silly. Anyway, as I have said before, this is your site, overall it is a pretty good one, and certainly you are free to run it as you see fit. I just think that stifling debate over issues is unproductive. If the moderators are free to flame and the rest of us are not free to defend our positions, it becomes a pointless. But again, it's your site, so God bless.

Gulcrapek
December 19th, 2003, 05:23 PM
His 'homophobic' post was only so to the extremely paranoid reader. "..." is in bed with "..." is commonly used to suggest corruption or negative business workings, in this case it happened to be two males. But since the phrase is just a phrase, and was not meant to suggest they were actually in bed together (hence the "phrase", again), there's no implication of homosexuality.

dbhstockton
December 19th, 2003, 06:30 PM
Yes, lighten up. "In bed with..." is commonly used, ie: " Bush is in bed with the energy companies."

ZippyTheChimp
December 19th, 2003, 07:10 PM
NYatKnight is not my pal. I assume that he assessed the situation and locked the thread for the same reason that I suggested - that the thread had degenerated into a running argument. It was opened again when new information became available.

I have had (errr) spirited arguments with several people here, but harbor no ill will toward anyone. One of the components of this forum should be to have a little fun. So, yeah, lighten up. Personally, I try to limit my nonesense posts to 25% of the total. :roll:

The site is run by Edward. It is best to forward any complaints to him. I think I can speak for all the moderators that we are receptive to constructive critisism.

Warning: This post was made while UTI.

NYatKNIGHT
December 22nd, 2003, 11:31 AM
You are also correct that you never did delete my posts, but you did have your pal NYKnight kill an active discussion because you didn't like the way it was going, which is just plain silly.
You already heard my explanation in detail in my replies to your PMs, but you seem to thrive on confrontation so I guess it was futile - there's no need to further defend my actions.

BPC
March 7th, 2004, 12:19 AM
Christian is back to his classless tactic of attacking me and then deleting my responses. How this guy can still be a moderator on this site is beyond me. An unmoderated site would be better than one run by this jerk. I guess he will soon delete this post as well.

Kris
March 7th, 2004, 02:54 AM
How can I still be a moderator? By taking care of cretins like you, among other things. It's appreciated.

I propose that BPC be banned. He or she cannot even stand being corrected when posting off-topic and has an obvious lack of respect.

BPC
March 7th, 2004, 08:38 AM
How can I still be a moderator? By taking care of cretins like you, among other things. It's appreciated.

I propose that BPC be banned. He or she cannot even stand being corrected when posting off-topic and has an obvious lack of respect.

You are a loser. My posts were ON TOPIC. You just disagreed with their content, so you deleted them. Anyone who disagrees with you on this site gets the same treatment. I am not the first to complain. Why don't you post my deleted messages here instead of just lying about their content? I have no respect for you because you deserve no respect. However, I have great respect for this forum and its members.

Kris
March 7th, 2004, 09:32 AM
Yes, you're not the first to protest that your right to dissent is being denied and that you're being persecuted - only to be rebuked because you're full of shit. This tactic hasn't worked too well.

BPC
March 7th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Yes, you're not the first to protest that your right to dissent is being denied and that you're being persecuted - only to be rebuked because you're full of shit. This tactic hasn't worked too well.

So why don't you post in this thread all of my posts that you deleted from the 90 West Street thread for being "Off Topic", so that everyone can decide for themselves whether or not my posts were sufficiently related to the 90 West rehabilitation? Or do you expect everyone to just take your word for it that I'm "full of shit," as you so classily put it? What exactly are you afraid of? The truth shall set you free, Christian!

And when is my banishment ceremony?

Edward
March 7th, 2004, 08:23 PM
I am temporarily closing the thread while I am contacting BPC.