Name this Brooklyn Neighborhood

[ASchwarz]

I keep passing through a neighborhood of apparently extremely expensive homes. It's located east of Bensonhurst, north of Gravesend, west of Sheepshead Bay, roughly from McDonald Avenue (the F Train) in the west to Coney Island Avenue in the east, between Kings Highway (north) and Avenue U (south). Ocean Parkway runs through the heart of the neighborhood.

There are many huge, ornate homes on large lots (for Brooklyn). There is absolutely tons of construction of very elaborate homes. Literally every third or fourth lot is undergoing construction or gut renovation.

I would guess the neighborhood is overwhelmingly Orthodox Jewish. I suspect most people are Syrian Jews, at least based on commerical signage.

OK, Brooklyn forumers, what is this neighborhood? Gulcrapek? BrooklynRider? Anyone?

[Gulcrapek]

Um... Avenue U west of Ocean Pkwy would be Gravesend to me...?
Maybe it's this elusive Kings Highway neighborhood I hear about.

[ASchwarz]

Maybe it's just part of Gravesend. It feels very different from the neighborhood along Avenue U. That stretch has modest homes and storefronts, and appears to be a Italian, Russian, Chinese mix. The area I'm referring to is like a secret enclave, with big homes, towering trees and a single ethnicity.

[ZippyTheChimp]

The area north of Ave T between McDonald Ave and Ocean Pkwy has been a Sephardic Jewish neighborhood for decades. If any of you remember Crazy Eddie (his prices are ...insane), I knew his kid sister when we were teenagers (actually had the hots for her). She had a friend who lived in that neighborhood. I remember her house was quite large on a big lot, but I don't recall any special name for the area - just part of Gravesend.

[Moe14]

I always thought Gravesend started below Kings Highway.

The whole area around McDonald Avenue between Midwood, Borough Park/Bensonhurst, Kensington, and Gravesend I never know what to call.

Of course, I could just make like any Brooklynite over 60 or so, and call it "Flatbush" - along with everywhere else between Bensonhurst and Canarsie.

[TLOZ Link5]

I think it's called Midwood...

[ZippyTheChimp]

Nope. Midwood is north of Kings Highway, between McDonald Ave and Ocean Ave.

I corrected my prior post, from Ocean Ave to Ocean Parkway.

[Gulcrapek]

I'll throw in another half guess and say Madison, since it fits the description but I'm not sure of the exact location.

[Stern]

North Coney Island?

[Gulcrapek]

Lol.. definitely not.

[Stern]

Im not familiar with Brooklyn, but believe it or not I was not joking. North and somewhat east of the Coney Island Hospital there are ellaborate mansions, and the residences are overwhelmingly jewish. The Ocean Parkway, maybe?

Hopefully someone else can back me up.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Yes, you're right. The CI hospital is on Ocean Parkway. The cross street is Ave Z and the area you refer to is about 1 mile north on Ocean Parkway.

[Stern]

Thanks, so have we determined the mentioned location yet?

[billyblancoNYC]

It's not Mill Basin, right. Thought it was Midwood, too. Nice houses, kepp getting bigger around there.

[Merry]

Within the area mentioned, the section west of Ocean Parkway is Gravesend (from Bay Parkway and Belt Parkway on the west to Ocean Parkway on the east, from Avenue P on the north to the Belt or Shore Parkway to the south) and to the east is Homecrest (from Ocean Parkway on the west to East 16th Street on the east, from Kings Highway on the north to Avenue V on the south). Homecrest is included in the entry for Sheepshead Bay in the book cited below.

Source: Neighborhoods of Brooklyn, Kenneth T. Jackson/John B. Manbeck

[ZippyTheChimp]

Homecrest is also what Gulcrapek called Madison, centered around Bedford Ave and Gravesend Neck Road. James Madison high school is in the area. Gravesend Neck Road was the road from the original town square of Gravesend to the Gravesend Neck, near Barren Island.

Gravesend was the only English town among the original 5 Dutch towns of Brooklyn.

[ZippyTheChimp]

The area within the streets that ASchwarz listed is called Gravesend. There are no sub neighborhoods that I know of. I believe the place he described is the section I memtioned earlier.

It is a small area between two east-west commercial streets, Kings Highway, and Ave U. The east border is Ocean Parkway, and the west is 4 blocks to E 2 St. There are a few other small sections further north and east that fit the description, but the change in character is not as pronounced as walking north from Ave U.

This area is NE of the original Gravesend village square.

1645 map of Gravesend (http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Map/Gravesend.1645.html)

This village grid still exists today, but it's easy to miss, since the N-S street is Mcdonald Ave with its el.

1664 map of Gravesend (http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Map/1664.Gravesend.Terhune.html)

1873 map of Gravesend (http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Map/1664.Gravesend.Terhune.html)

This last map solves the puzzle. The area in question is the site of the Prospect Park Fairgrounds (not Prospect Park which is further north).
In the late 19th century, southern Kings County was a center of thoroughbred racing, with three racetracks. The first track was called Brighton Beach, the second Sheepshead Bay. In 1885, the Dwyer brothers built the third racetrack on the fairgrounds and named it The Gravesend. It operated until 1910.

[Merry]

Homecrest is also what Gulcrapek called Madison, centered around Bedford Ave and Gravesend Neck Road.

According to Neighborhoods of Brooklyn, Madison is a separate neighbourhood east of Homecrest, the boundaries being from Ocean Avenue on the west to Nostrand Avenue and Gerritsen Avenue on the east, from Kings Highway on the north to Avenue U on the south.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Does the book list Ocean Parkway and Kings Highway?

[Merry]

Does the book list Ocean Parkway and Kings Highway?

Apart from the boundaries I've already cited, I'm not sure what you're asking, but more from the book...

Under Gravesend

"Russians began moving to the neighborhood in the early 1980s, and many of Gravesend's newer residents are Indian and Haitian immigrants and settlers of Asian and Irish descent. A Sephardic Jewish community settled into the area around East 3rd, 4th, and 5th Streets during this same period, close to the large synagogues and yeshivas of Ocean Parkway."

"Some larger apartment buildings sit on Ocean Parkway and Coney Island Avenue; and between Kings Highway and Avenue U on Gravesend's eastern side, Spanish villas dot the side streets."

Under Sheepshead Bay

"Today, Sheepshead Bay abuts on its northern edge two smaller neighborhoods, Homecrest and Madison, which share its early history. (Some who live on the streets adjacent to Kings Highway also use the unofficial moniker Kings Bay for their area.)"

Sorry if this isn't what you meant.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I should have said neighborhood. Some maps show Ocean Parkway as a separate neighborhood (the section of Midwood west of Ocean Parkway). There is purported to be a Kings Highway neighborhood, but I have no idea where it is. Neither of these neighborhood names is rooted in any solid history, and that may be the case for Madison. The only reference to the name is James Madison High School on Bedford Ave. When I lived in Sheepshead Bay, the entire area was called Homecrest.

Hey ASchwarz! You started all this. Is the area you asked about located on the site of the racetrack? It would explain the different character.

[ASchwarz]

Zippy, Merry, Gulcrapek, everyone else, thank you for the helpful info!

Zippy, the area I'm referring to is on the site of the racetrack, which likely accounts for its unique character.

According to two people in neighboring Bensonhurst, the area is referred to as "Ocean Parkway".

[Moe14]

You have to abandon this recent idea that you can take a map, draw neat lines, and divide up the city into something called "neighborhoods" and that each "Neighborhood" has some true and proper name.

First, there are no official boundaries of anything other than Community Boards, which might or might not encompass any given person's idea of neighborhood boundaries. There is nothing close to hard and fast boundaries for any neighborhood - except maybe Roosevelt Island ;)

Second, depending on a million factors, one person might call one area something and someone else might call it something else. You can have two people who have lived next door to each other for the last 50 years still argue about what to call where they live. There is no true and proper name for any given area. Neighborhoods grow, shrink, change names, and dissapear every time you ask a different person about any given area.

Third, there's some areas with no names, or at least ones that aren't really used. I'd describe the area in question as "off of Ocean Parkway" or maybe "somewhere in Southern Brooklyn," or maybe "that Sefardic area around King's Highway" and a lot of other people would too.

"Kind of between Borough Park and Kensington" or "Off the Church Avenue F-stop" or "right near the Southeast corner Greenwood Cemetary" is generally how I describe where I live. Now, in that Neighborhoods of Brooklyn book my area is called "Dahill," and I belong to the Dahill neighborhood organization, but nobody would ever answer the question "where do you live?" or even "what neighborhood do you live in?" with "Dahill."

This whole "neighborhoods" thing is really somewhat artificial, and I don't understand the obsession with having to name every given block in New York City with an artificial moniker.

[Gulcrapek]

I get your point, and there are definitely no absolute boundaries, buit people like to classify a general area to give an idea of where things are. People always call where I live two different neighborhoods, it's just a matter of view.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I only agree with the artificiality of some of the names, such as Madison or Ocean Parkway, or the more recent DUMBO. However, many of the names are well grounded in history. What is now called Gravesend is centered around the original village. It has been called that for over 350 years. The same is true of New Utrecht, Flatlands, etc. Bedford-Stuyvesant has nothing to do with the street, but is the site of Bedford Village, which predates the Revolution.

It's interesting to note the difference between Brooklyn and Queens. If you live in Brighton, your address is Brooklyn, NY; if you live in northeast Queens, it is Whitestone NY. At the time Greater New York was formed, Brooklyn had already gobbled up all the townships of Kings County, but Queens was still largely rural with distinct villages.