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NYguy
February 18th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Daily News...

http://www.pbase.com/image/26164667/large.jpg


NY Post...

http://www.pbase.com/image/26164685/original.jpg

NoyokA
February 18th, 2004, 09:53 AM
Management should follow a similar policy as major league baseball does by not acknowledging field runners. There's a reason jumpers gravitate to the ESB and they should not be aknowledged for their self deprecating stunt.

Ninjahedge
February 18th, 2004, 11:06 AM
You can acnowledge it, just don't FEATURE it.

ZippyTheChimp
February 18th, 2004, 11:48 AM
MAN'S DREAM TO BE A HIT IN NEW YORK ENCOUNTERS A SETBACK

fioco
February 18th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Zippy, if this is your audition to be a copywriter, you're hired! Wit with a twist.

Stern's point is not to glorify the act with publicity. A Toronto bridge across the Don Valley attracts suicides like moths to a light and necessitated an expensive apparatus to thwart them. (If I'm correct, it's even more maudlin in that it "catches" them more than dissuades them.) It would be good policy to refuse to release the names of jumpers, but that alone would not deter suicides. Iconic landmarks will always have an attraction for such fatalists.

Merry
March 30th, 2010, 11:02 PM
Tuesday, March 30th 2010, 8:24 PM

Man leaps to his death from 86th floor observation deck at Empire State Building


BY Sam Costanza, Kerry Burke and John Lauinger

A young man took a fatal plunge from the observation deck of the Empire State Building Tuesday night, police sources said.

The man took a running leap around 6:15 p.m. from the 86th floor observation deck - clearing a fence and then the building's outermost ledge, the sources said.

He landed with a sickening thud on a sidewalk along 34th St., near a bank branch at the northeast entrance of the famed midtown skyscraper.

"He came down in front of the Bank of America. Boom! It was an explosion," said Luis Mosquea, 28, who was manning the front entrance of a women's boutique across 34th St. from where the man landed.

"His body was shattered and his sneakers were scattered on the sidewalk," said Mosquea, recalling in horror how stunned pedestrians scampered in every direction to flee the nightmarish sight.

"One guy ran over and covered the body with an umbrella," he said. "It's crazy."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/03/30/2010-03-30_man_leaps_to_his_death_from_86th_floor_observat ion_deck_at_empire_state_building.html#ixzz0jif0C8 KW

Alonzo-ny
March 31st, 2010, 06:22 AM
I don't understand these people. Fine, commit suicide if you want but why do you have to traumatise so many people?

ZippyTheChimp
March 31st, 2010, 07:58 AM
Or land on someone.

Ninjahedge
March 31st, 2010, 08:12 AM
Because it is there.

A lot of times when you are thinking of something like this, landing is not your primary concern....

Merry
March 31st, 2010, 08:14 AM
The all-consuming desire to die that badly precludes any practical thought :rolleyes:.

ZippyTheChimp
March 31st, 2010, 09:02 AM
Suicide shouldn't take enough time to allow you to think, "Maybe this isn't such a good idea."

Ninjahedge
March 31st, 2010, 09:22 AM
It does Zip.

The act itself shouldn't, if that is what you mean. 86 stories is a long time to reconsider your actions.

ZippyTheChimp
March 31st, 2010, 11:05 AM
Of course the act.

Before that, there should be plenty of time to think it over.

Maybe 10 or 20 years.

Merry
April 1st, 2010, 04:57 AM
^ :mad:.


Yale Student Commits Suicide From Empire State Building Observation Deck

NEW YORK A Yale University junior left a suicide note in his dorm room before heading to New York, where he apparently plunged to his death by jumping from the Empire State Building, police said Wednesday.

Cameron Dabaghi, 21, from Austin, Texas, jumped from the 86th floor observation deck Tuesday during evening rush hour. His note said he was sorry and he would be jumping from either the George Washington Bridge over the Hudson River in upper Manhattan, or the Empire State building, police said.

There were seven other people on the observation deck at the same time, and one person tried to talk to the jumper as he climbed over the barrier, but was unsuccessful.

Dabaghi was dead when rescue workers arrived at the 102-story skyscraper shortly before 6:30 p.m. He was a student in Berkeley College, majoring in East Asian studies. The college dean was meeting with students Wednesday, and counselors were available at the university to anyone who needed them.

"Yale is extending support to Cameron's family, roommates and friends at this most difficult time," the university said in a statement.

http://www.examiner.com/x-37614-Austin-Market-Examiner~y2010m3d31-Austin-man-identified-as-Empire-State-Building-suicide-jumper (http://www.examiner.com/x-37614-Austin-Market-Examiner%7Ey2010m3d31-Austin-man-identified-as-Empire-State-Building-suicide-jumper)

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 05:04 AM
Narcissim.... it's all about me.

Merry
April 1st, 2010, 07:27 AM
^ What :confused:.

It's narcissism, by the way, and the tautology is just irritating.

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 08:11 AM
Jumping into the public with the real possibility that you could kill someone... or fall through a windshield and kill more.... simply because you've got problems with your life is.... well... what?

Could you come up with a better word?

Merry
April 1st, 2010, 08:29 AM
Despair. Desperation.

Alonzo-ny
April 1st, 2010, 09:11 AM
It is that but it is incredibly selfish. I can understand someone's life may be at the point where they no longer want to live but to commit suicide in a way that traumatises and puts in danger people is disgusting.

Ninjahedge
April 1st, 2010, 09:49 AM
Are you guys trying to assign logic to an emotional act?

Telling someone that is depressed about their life that killing themselves that way is selfish will do nothing to alleviate the situation.

Also, I can see where Merry is coming from. What point is there in criticizing a dead man? Did he hit anyone? Did he damage anything?

"Could have" really does not matter much in cases like this.

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 10:05 AM
Ninj: you are going all over the place... again setting up strawmen.

I'm not assigning logic, illogic whatever to anything. I'm not trying to "alleviate the situation".... or whatever weird tangent you are going off on.

The fellow was depressed. In despair. No doubt. He considered jumping off a bridge into the river. Instead he chose to jump landing on a busy sidewalk. Obviously not concerned about the real possiblity killing others.

I believe the word narcissism applies.

--

ZippyTheChimp
April 1st, 2010, 10:19 AM
Are you guys trying to assign logic to an emotional act?That's it.

Many years ago, A co-worker was suicidal. Also an alcoholic. In the time before I knew him, his wife committed suicide. I tried to counsel him, get him professional help; I was young, and he was my first project.

One day I got a call that he was released from the hospital, and had entered a facility for substance abuse. Weeks later, I had a conversation with him; I was full of myself with success. Then I found out what happened.

He lived on the LES, and one day in the throes of despair and a drunken stupor, he tumbled down the stairs from his apartment and passed out on the sidewalk. He awoke in the hospital.

He told me his intention was to climb the stairs to the roof and jump off, but he fell down the stairs instead. Pure luck.

Of course, what happened is what I learned over the years - he hit rock bottom, that terrible place you have to go to see things clearly. He's been sober for 30 years, remarried, and counsels others in his spare time.

Narcissism has very little to do with it.

Alonzo-ny
April 1st, 2010, 10:25 AM
Ninja,

I have no idea what you are going on about. Have you ever gone to the ESB? This person travelled from wherever to the ESB and waited in line for probably an hour. He obviously had time to think it through. If he was extremely irrational or distressed he would never have made it to the top. He chose to do it knowing the distress it would cause.

There is plenty of point in critising him. Just because he is dead doesn't make him exempt. I'm sorry his life fell apart and that he felt he had no other choice but he could have chosen to do it a million other ways that would not have damaged others lives. It is selfish. Why defend that? 'Could have' matters a hell of a lot.

Binky Bainbridge
April 1st, 2010, 11:26 AM
Surely it should be a question of "look before you leap"? Why don't they provide an empty unused elevator shaft in the Empire State building for those who want to take a leap of death? It's better than them landing on poor pedestrians walking on the streets below.
Have some thought for others you suicide cases!

Alonzo-ny
April 1st, 2010, 11:40 AM
Reminds me of the suicide booths in Futurama.

http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content08/suicide-booth.jpg

Ninjahedge
April 1st, 2010, 11:43 AM
Ninja,

I have no idea what you are going on about. Have you ever gone to the ESB? This person travelled from wherever to the ESB and waited in line for probably an hour. He obviously had time to think it through. If he was extremely irrational or distressed he would never have made it to the top. He chose to do it knowing the distress it would cause.

Have you ever thought about killing yourself?

Sometimes the purpose, besides ending it, is to get attension. If you always feel ignored, you do not just slip out the back door quietly.


There is plenty of point in critising him. Just because he is dead doesn't make him exempt.

But it makes the criticsm pointless.


I'm sorry his life fell apart and that he felt he had no other choice but he could have chosen to do it a million other ways that would not have damaged others lives. It is selfish. Why defend that? 'Could have' matters a hell of a lot.

1. I am not defending his choice.
2. There are a million other ways, should there be a council session to people on the importance of killing yourself safely?
3. Selfish does not really have a solid meaning here. This is not something easily assignable to a persons consideration of others. Also, if others ignored them or hurt them, what do they care if they do the same?


Again, logic being assigned to an extremely emotional moment just does not work.

You are allowed to criticize all you want, it just does not sit right.

"How dare he kill himself" is also a rather selfish thought. ""My god, that wretched miserable person could have adversely effected my life by ending his own" does not sound quite right either.

The act is wrong no matter how you look at it. Dissecting it does not do much good.


And Fab, whatever. Go make your own strawmen. You are good at that.

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 11:54 AM
"Sometimes the purpose, besides ending it, is to get attension."

^ you are making my point.

ZippyTheChimp
April 1st, 2010, 01:08 PM
Low self-esteem is a primary condition of suicidal personalities.


Sometimes the purpose, besides ending it, is to get attension.Such a person isn't intent on suicide; they want to be stopped.

MidtownGuy
April 1st, 2010, 01:21 PM
Yes.
It's actually quite rare for a true narcissist to commit suicide. It runs against the grain of what narcissism is. In fact, a lack of suicidal attempts or self mutilation is one of the ways of differentiating NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

The grandiose concept of self, the exaggerated self importance usually prevents the narcissist from actually carrying out the act. The narcissist often reacts to severe stress with the ideation of suicide, but that's very different than carrying it through.

This young man was most likely not a narcissist.

This is a terrible tragedy. My heart and prayers go out to the family.

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 01:42 PM
^ "It's actually quite rare for a true narcissist to commit suicide. It runs against the grain of what narcissism is."

According to this psychologist they are not incompatible:

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/criminal-profiler-says-suicide-pilot-joseph-stack-blamed-others-for-everything/19364642

MidtownGuy
April 1st, 2010, 02:01 PM
The referenced article seems based only on the statements of Maurice Godwin, a criminal investigative psychologist asked to give an opinion on the case. ( it's useful to note this is a high profile case that clearly has politics involved, so I take Godwin's diagnosis with a grain of salt, especially, as I said, since he never treated the man or had any therapy sessions with him.) The article comes out and states he never even treated Stack so I'm not sure what he is basing his diagnosis on besides the letter.


All the psychological information on Narcissism that I have seen indicates that actual suicide is quite rare with these people. The ideation of suicide is more likely.

Again,
a lack of suicidal attempts or self mutilation is one of the ways of differentiating NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

Maybe Godwin, or the people paying him, have an agenda in the case of the IRS being attacked. It's tainted by the whole political thing. The spectre of terrorism, the government narrative, etc.

We need better examples.

Ninjahedge
April 1st, 2010, 02:37 PM
Low self-esteem is a primary condition of suicidal personalities.

Such a person isn't intent on suicide; they want to be stopped.

Maybe I need to be more specific? (no sarcasm, I was just a bit vague in my description/definition)

The ones that attempt but seem so bad at it want people to pay attention to them.

The ones that are serious sometimes just want people to pay attention to them that one time. The "final statement" kind of thing. Otherwise why go through all the trouble of the ESB when a 4 story warehouse will do the same thing?

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 02:43 PM
Maybe Godwin, or the people paying him, have an agenda in the case of the IRS being attacked. It's tainted by the whole political thing. The spectre of terrorism, the government narrative, etc.





^ I guess we read two different articles.

I see absolutely no political angles in this psychologist who simply gives an opinion on the case. But that's not even the point. Whether his assesment of Joseph Andrew Stack is correct or not, the point is: he is a psychologist who sees no incompatibilty between narcissism and suicide.

Ninjahedge
April 1st, 2010, 03:08 PM
Incompatibility is different than unlikeliness.

Just because something is not likely to happen does not mean it won't. But, chances are, someone who is by definition narcissistic will not choose to commit a successful suicide.

At least, not without calling it out first.

Alonzo-ny
April 1st, 2010, 03:16 PM
I would agree that narcissism is not likely in a successful suicide. The narcissist would be the one hanging off the roof saying 'I'm gonna jump, I'm gonna jump' while a crowd assembles below with TV cameras, the police, et al.

ZippyTheChimp
April 1st, 2010, 03:33 PM
The ones that are serious sometimes just want people to pay attention to them that one time. The "final statement" kind of thing. Otherwise why go through all the trouble of the ESB when a 4 story warehouse will do the same thing?I understood what you meant.

Trying to logically analyze why a suicidal person takes a particular course of action is a little pointless, when the very act is contrary to rational and instinctive behavior.

You could ask: Who is exhibiting narcissism - the person who jumps off a building, or the person on the ground who calls him selfish? Narcissism = lack of empathy.

In a sense, narcissism helps prevent suicide. We're all born with it. Want to see pure narcissism; live with a three-year old. And we carry it through life to some degree. We've all done this: some one begins to tell us about a problem, and we respond by relating a worse situation about ourselves. That's narcissistic.

You need this ego to deal with problems.

ZippyTheChimp
April 1st, 2010, 03:34 PM
@Alonzo: That's exactly it.

MidtownGuy
April 1st, 2010, 04:10 PM
^ I guess we read two different articles.

I see absolutely no political angles in this psychologist who simply gives an opinion on the case. But that's not even the point. Whether his assesment of Joseph Andrew Stack is correct or not, the point is: he is a psychologist who sees no incompatibilty between narcissism and suicide.

Actually the point is that this specific psychologist's statements raise questions when compared to proper clinical diagnosis of NPD which would usually require more than reading a letter. Regarding reports in the US media, yes I am skeptical when one lone psychologist is being quoted about a possible domestic terrorism case and that psychologist has no actual connection or personal knowledge at all to the person in question... not a single hour in therapy or evaluation that could credibly lead to such a headline grabbing diagnosis. Even the reporter felt compelled to include the words ,"who has not treated Stack".

I think it was just a handy google result.

MidtownGuy
April 1st, 2010, 04:37 PM
One issue in this country is the fact that health insurance companies here do not provide enough benefits that cover mental health care.

Fabrizio
April 1st, 2010, 05:44 PM
Actually the point is that this specific psychologist's statements raise questions when compared to proper clinical diagnosis of NPD which would usually require more than reading a letter. Regarding reports in the US media, yes I am skeptical when one lone psychologist is being quoted about a possible domestic terrorism case and that psychologist has no actual connection or personal knowledge at all to the person in question... not a single hour in therapy or evaluation that could credibly lead to such a headline grabbing diagnosis. Even the reporter felt compelled to include the words ,"who has not treated Stack".



Uh... for the 3rd time I'm simply pointing out "a psychologist who sees no incompatibilty between narcissism and suicide".

It's a concept he believes in ...whether it's Joseph Andrew Stack, Kurt Colbain, Marilyn Monroe or Amy Vanderbilt.... he believes narcissim and suicide are not incompatible. Note that no where do I dispute what you are saying about narcissism. I'm not even arguing his point, I'm no expert.

Maybe he's a dumb psychologist ... quite possible.

But the point I'm making just flies over your head.

Now tell us again how he has not treated Stack and so forth... I'm all ears.

-------

And this:

"I think it was just a handy google result."

Well how do you think anyone here would come up with such an article? And that's why I provide a link to the results of my search.

In the meantime Midtownguy writes the following with great authority...



It's actually quite rare for a true narcissist to commit suicide. It runs against the grain of what narcissism is. In fact, a lack of suicidal attempts or self mutilation is one of the ways of differentiating NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).


Oh Yeah right... which of course sounds exactly like someone just casually pulling this stuff up from the depths of his intellect. I'm impressed!

Now do this: put into Google-search the words "narcissist" "suicide" ... and these results come up:

"Narcissists VERY rarely commit suicide. It runs against the grain. They have suicidal ideation and reactive psychoses under severe stress - but to commit suicide runs against the grain of narcissism. This is more of a BPD trait. A differential diagnosis of NPD (which distinguishes NPD from BPD, for instance) actually almost rests on the absence of attempted suicide and self-mutilation."

From the: "Narcissism FAQ #70: Myths about Narcissism"

http://www.mental-health-matters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=737:narcissism-faq-70-myths-about-narcissism&catid=99:narcissistic-personality&Itemid=2113


---

MidtownGuy
April 2nd, 2010, 12:04 AM
Whoa. There's a whole lot there, with which I respectfully disagree, and I would like a chance to straighten things out in the interest of accuracy.
Why oh why did you have to lob so much, which now obligates a reply.


Note that no where do I dispute what you are saying about narcissism. I'm not even arguing his point, I'm no expert.

Nobody here is an expert, yet almost all of us seem to agree that narcissists aren't likely suicidal.
The following words, you wrote, clearly give the impression that you were disputing:


According to this psychologist they(narcissism and suicide) are not incompatible:


Jumping into the public with the real possibility that you could kill someone...simply because you've got problems with your life is.... well... what?

Could you come up with a better word?


Ninj: you are going all over the place... again setting up strawmen...

I believe the word narcissism applies.


"Sometimes the purpose, besides ending it, is to get attension."

^ you are making my point."

Hmmm...Between these statements were the contrasting opinions of others.

Most call that a dispute, debate, contrasting opinions, whatever... call it what you like, but it sure isn't agreement.

Something you misunderstood...when I said
"I think it was just a handy google result."
and you replied,
"Well how do you think anyone here would come up with such an article?",

it was just a handy google result in the sense that it was just the one result on the page that backed up the disputative statements above, but really had no bearing on whether suicide and true narcissism were likely companions. The other first page results substantiated the general consensus here.

Now this last thing is bizarre, troubling, but amusing nonetheless:

"In the meantime Midtownguy writes the following with great authority...{my excerpted statement}
...Oh Yeah right... which of course sounds exactly like someone just casually pulling this stuff up from the depths of his intellect. I'm impressed!"

Respectfully, just tone it down, please.

I did go on to say "All the psychological information on Narcissism that I have seen indicates that actual suicide is quite rare with these people..."
So I wasn't pretending to be "pulling this stuff up from the depths of his intellect" as you say. :rolleyes: I was paraphrasing, and what I said was common knowledge across a variety of sources on the first page of results. I didn't feel the need to link and footnote the measly 3 sentences of paraphrasing, but if I knew I would be accused of, well...I dunno what, it's all so pointless...
*oh forget it*

MidtownGuy
April 2nd, 2010, 12:11 AM
from here (http://www.courant.com/news/education/hc-empire-state-building-jumper-0331,0,4654525.story):
"Yale is extending support to Cameron's family, roommates and friends at this most difficult time," Conroy said.

The master and dean of the college met Wednesday with students to mourn together and comfort one another, Conroy said. Counselors from Yale's health services have gone to the college and are available "around the clock" for any students or other members of the community.

"The university will inform students and others of additional opportunities to remember Cameron as plans are finalized," Conroy said.
---

rest in peace, Cameron Dabaghi:(

Merry
April 2nd, 2010, 12:25 AM
Respectfully, MTG and Fab, is it possible for you both to keep your personal tit-for-tat slanging matches out of discussions on this forum? It spoils things every time.

An unrelenting, narcissistic ping pong game.

Merry
April 2nd, 2010, 12:26 AM
We've all done this: some one begins to tell us about a problem, and we respond by relating a worse situation about ourselves. That's narcissistic.

So we're all narcissistic, then, at times.

The actions of the poor young man who apparently couldn't cope with his problems was not.

Fabrizio
April 2nd, 2010, 05:29 AM
^ will do. In the meantime, the exchange is there for all to judge as to who is doing the pinging and who is doing the ponging, the tatting ...and the titting.

Anyway, moving along, let me repost a portion of this posted by Kris a while back:


April 23, 2006

75 Years
Crashing to Earth, Again and Again
By MAX PAGE

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/04/23/nyregion/thecity/scar450.jpg
The body of Evelyn McHale, 23, atop a limousine after she jumped to her death from the observation platform of the Empire State Building.

SHE was right on target. Soaring from a thousand feet up, she hit the bull's-eye, landing on top of the roof of the car, her long legs demurely crossed. I couldn't take my eyes off her.

Before I had bought into the romance of the Empire State building, I knew it from a 1947 photograph of a suicide reprinted in "The Best of Life." In the image of this sleeping beauty, I saw not only unrequited love but also the skyscraper's sheer gravitational power.

The woman's fall was an homage to the Empire State Building, grisly performance art for the symbol of the modern metropolis, and vivid evidence that because of the building's size and pre-eminence, it has been a target for destruction by creators of popular culture over three-quarters of a century, and a place that could also, in turn, destroy the soul.

Those who attempted suicide understood. The magnet of death and the thrill of desire have been partners in the life of the Empire State Building since the moment it was created.

Ninjahedge
April 2nd, 2010, 08:04 AM
The word is: Narcissism

http://www.retrogameshows.com/10pyr4.jpg

MidtownGuy
April 2nd, 2010, 12:58 PM
Respectfully, MTG and Fab, is it possible for you both to keep your personal tit-for-tat slanging matches out of discussions on this forum? It spoils things every time.

An unrelenting, narcissistic ping pong game.



^ will do. In the meantime, the exchange is there for all to judge as to who is doing the pinging and who is doing the ponging, the tatting ...and the titting.

^another PING! yay. He sure keeps 'em coming.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4483984857_b3de96a673.jpg


Anyway, moving along,...
But only after having served another ping, of course:rolleyes:

Actually moving along:
Empire State Building security guards couldn't stop Yale jumper Cameron Dabaghi (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/04/02/2010-04-02_guard_couldnt_stop_empire_state_leaper.html)

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/04/02/alg_empire_state_guard.jpg

Security at the Empire State Building Thursday remained tight days after the suicide of a Yale student who plunged off the skyscraper's 86th floor.
"It might be easier to stop a plane than keep a person from doing what he wants to do," said one guard.
"We have all sorts of security measures in place. It's not like we didn't try to stop him," he continued.
About six maroon-suited security guards stood watch on the 86th floor observation deck Thursday, barking at sightseers who stood on railings or ledges to get down.
Only seven people were on the observation deck Tuesday when Cameron Dabaghi, of Austin, Tex., leaped off the north side of the landmark tower.
It wasn't clear how many guards were on duty because their bosses, expecting a slow day because of the rainy weather, told several guards to stay home.
Still, cops and guards said at least one watchman tried to stop the 21-year-old Dabaghi from scaling the deck's spiked 10-foot-high fence.
"It wasn't quick. We tried to talk him down for a while. It's not easy to get over these gates for a reason," another guard said, refusing to give his name because of orders from building management.

Alonzo-ny
April 2nd, 2010, 01:11 PM
I actually thought that MTG and Fab were having an interesting and reasonable discussion. Keep up the good work, guys. ;)

infoshare
April 2nd, 2010, 02:42 PM
I actually thought that MTG and Fab were having an interesting and reasonable discussion. Keep up the good work, guys. ;)

I agree ......... all this thread needs now is a sound track (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=321659&postcount=418). ;)