Atlantic City Seeks New Image: Las Vegas's

[Fabrizio]

Oh boy, those chair pushers! I totally beleive you now.

That's funny, a chair pusher told me that AC is looking nicer than he has ever seen it. Tons of people walking along the streets, going in and out of shops (not The Walk), and restaurants. The Walk is over-spilling with people, it is hard to drive because sidewalks were overflowing into the streets. Most of the city looks like a vibrant, a walkable and pedestrian freindly place. Oh... and those flower shops!

[giselehaslice]

The only thing you accomplished in that post was making yourself look even more like a jerk. Is that possible?

[Intheknow]

Gee, looks like Revel and City bond deal may fall through. I've stated markets are bad and getting worse but most of you have the dreams of a gambler.

I'm all for new development, but I'm a realist. The City is turning into Paulines Prairie.

[American Gaming Guru]

Intheknow, once again, you just do not! I dont know why you constantly post false rumors.

The Chelsea is still under construction. I woke up early from the noise! I toured around the hotel a bit. The Spa is almost finished (water is now in the salt water pool) and the courtyard of the old HoJo's looks great. The Lite rooms are to open in a few weeks.

Teplitzkys looks awesome, the food is great, but the menu could be expanded and the service needs to improve. Chelsea Prime has supposedly been the talk of the town and a run-away success so far.

Revel is progressing fast and furiously. I certainly hope they do not run out of money but as we have discussed, you certainly have to think that they will.

I also took some boardwalk shots to show streetscape and exterior improvements. It was a nit cold, so not many people were sitting at outdoor cafes when I was walking the boards.

Lastly, I took some shots of the Chairman Tower lobby. There is not much to see at this point, but figured I would give everyone a feel as to the design that they are shooting for there.

Enjoy

[American Gaming Guru]

Some exterior shots. I did not want to take interiors of Teplitzkys as there were too many peole having luch at the time. I will try and get them next time.

Looking at the Chelsea from Pacific
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08053.jpg?t=1222351847

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08054.jpg?t=1222351914

You can see the construction workers having lunch here on the Lite tower balcony

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08003.jpg?t=1222351969

From Chelsea Ave

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08056-1.jpg?t=1222352050

I am a big fan of the Chelsea Prime design, so I figured I would take another shot.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08004.jpg?t=1222352132

[American Gaming Guru]

The glass has been removed from Boardwalk Hall that formed the walkway between Trump Plaza and Trump World's Fair. I do not think it really made much of a difference, but now the original exterior look has been restored. This building is truly breathtaking!

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08007.jpg?t=1222352355

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08008.jpg?t=1222352384

Some new facades. Some finished and some still under construction. They look great.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08006.jpg?t=1222352414

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08005.jpg?t=1222352490

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08014.jpg?t=1222352522

Versus the old view. This blok has obviously not been touched yet. They still have a few more to go.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08011.jpg?t=1222352603


Examples of some "street life" on the boardwalk (again, it was a bit cold this morning).

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08017.jpg?t=1222352687

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08001.jpg?t=1222352750

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08002.jpg?t=1222352810

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08010.jpg?t=1222352833

[Intheknow]

You woke up to constuction, nice. I'll bet the house lite will not be open in a couple of weeks. How about their rolling solar chairs, can you get one? No one out at the outdoor cafes? Outdoor pizza joints is the correct term. Chelsea will be bankrupt soon, please, as always, mark my words. Does the hotel appear to be crowded or even semi-crowded? Don't tell me it's the middle of the week BS, to break even they need to be busy everyday.

I hope they succeed but they are having serious troubles.

When did they start re-doing facades? It sure is taking awhile, maybe with overtime the 100 million isn't that bad!

The boardwalk should be bustling, it is not. Did you see the trash truck going down the middle of the boardwalk? Is the Ocean touching the sand berms that are protecting the boardwalk, a nor'easter is coming. What a waste of money and views of the ocean.

Honestly, don't you see how it could be sooooo much better?

Two constuction workers having lunch, hmm. Notice the original HOJOs sliding glass doors for the balconies, there staying, and they don't work that well.

How much was your room?

Isn't it somewhat depressing, try and notice how many people, workers and tourists, are smiling. This does make a difference as does the dirt and trash.

[American Gaming Guru]

Access is to the new Taj Chairman Tower is on the 2nd Floor "Spice Road" They just extended the lobby off of the existing towers elevator bank.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08024.jpg?t=1222352991

Looking from the Chairman Tower back at the original elevator bank.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08019.jpg?t=1222353085 (javascript:void(0);)

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08023.jpg?t=1222353200

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http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08021.jpg?t=1222353304

[American Gaming Guru]

I can not believe the progress that has been made in just about one month. I walked the entire site perimeter and took many pics (went a little camera happy, but figured mostly everyone would enjoy these).

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08026.jpg?t=1222353472

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08027.jpg?t=1222353492

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08028.jpg?t=1222353511

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http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08050.jpg?t=1222353977

[American Gaming Guru]

Lastly, this one was taken especially for Intheknow. I thought you might like it!

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08025-1.jpg?t=1222354476 (javascript:void(0);)

[JCMAN320]

You know what in Intheknow, you are all wet. Just do yourself and the city of AC a favor and move the hell out. You are obviously bitter and don't know jack about anything. The Revel is obviously moving along. Your posts have no creedence obviously.

[Intheknow]

Time will tell.

How's MGM, Pinnacle, AC Gateway? Tear and rip out more of the city before you have financing, just like Paulines Prairie, when will you learn?

That is pre-fab concrete paid for months ago that is making Revel appear to be progressing nicely. It's not my fault the credit markets are in the worst shape they have evr been in.

Sincerely,

Realist

[Fabrizio]

Thanks for the photos.

I wonder if anyone here realizes that this corner is a "recreation" of one of the limestone Neo-Gothic wings of the old Dennis Hotel (destroyed by Bally's). Note the details. It's a very sweet idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/0aa-1.jpg

[giselehaslice]

^That is a great obervation. It's nice that they tried somewhat to bring back a little relic of the past.

Revel is going up really fast. Last time I was there none of that base building was there. Chairman tower looks okay, could use a little more "life", but the design is nice I guess.

[Intheknow]

Look, the CITY is still a slum after 30 years of casino $$$ to help revitalize it, more casinos will not help the CITY. There are a handful of restaurants in the City that are worthwhile, Docks, Knife and Fork, Angelinos, Fairmount. There are no worthwhile shops in the city, the Walk and Pier are it, and they are extremely generic. The parks, besides O'Donnell Memorial Park, are tiny and useless to the general populous of the city. No bowling alley, movie theater, supermarket, if you want this to be more than a 6 hour stay get-away, you must have these. This is what makes a city. The crime, drugs, filth, grafitti are now in EVERY neighborhood in the city. People don't clean their properties, look after their neighbors, or teach their children to be respectful. City services are basically useless, an employment agency for politicians relatives. The police are racist and corrupt, like everyone else in City Hall. It's all about the money to NJ politicians not the quality of life for it's citizens.

Call me a wet towel, pessimistic, negative, but I state the truth. Development is going nowhere and won't until credit markets improve. You all re-hash what Casino developers say and get all excited, well they are full of shit, always were always will be.

I'm telling you AC is going to go through alot more hurt before it gets better, if it ever gets better.

[Fabrizio]

I will say this, and it's interesting to note: see that line of junky run down t-shirt shops that AGGuru posted? When the idea of gambling was first floated back in the 70's, that kind of squalor did not exist on the B'walk (or Pacific or Atlantic) for that matter. There were still plenty of very nice shops including the Reese Paley gallery and Bamberger's at the Blenhiem, The Shelburn had a beautiful, elegant restaraunt that faced the Bwalk with a huge curved window, the Haddon Hall had the most elegant pharmacy (a 1920's time capsule) that was still in operation... and many other very nice places.

[66nexus]

Look, the CITY is still a slum after 30 years of casino $$$ to help revitalize it, more casinos will not help the CITY. There are a handful of restaurants in the City that are worthwhile, Docks, Knife and Fork, Angelinos, Fairmount. There are no worthwhile shops in the city, the Walk and Pier are it, and they are extremely generic. The parks, besides O'Donnell Memorial Park, are tiny and useless to the general populous of the city. No bowling alley, movie theater, supermarket, if you want this to be more than a 6 hour stay get-away, you must have these. This is what makes a city. The crime, drugs, filth, grafitti are now in EVERY neighborhood in the city.
Call me a wet towel, pessimistic, negative, but I state the truth.

Development is going nowhere and won't until credit markets improve. You all re-hash what Casino developers say and get all excited, well they are full of shit, always were always will be.


crime, drugs, filth aren't good things. But when someone posts construction photos and you cite neighborhood crime it seems like a misdirected response. Crime control is something casinos or any development aren't going to fix.

You take the same statements of the developers that others may praise, and reject them. In essence, you're the opposite extreme.

ps, a bowling alley, movie theater and supermarket, while good things, are not foundations of a great city. Especially one as as small as AC.

[Fabrizio]

"Crime control is something casinos or any development aren't going to fix. "

Nexus: the design of the casinos has seriously ADDED to the crime scene in AC.

"ps, a bowling alley, movie theater and supermarket, while good things, are not foundations of a great city. Especially one as as small as AC."

Indeed it is the small amenities that ARE signs of a healthy livable place... the foundations of a great city are not 12 casinos.

[66nexus]

^That is a great obervation. It's nice that they tried somewhat to bring back a little relic of the past.

Revel is going up really fast. Last time I was there none of that base building was there. Chairman tower looks okay, could use a little more "life", but the design is nice I guess.

Agreed. It looks decent but it doesn't seem to fit in AC. It looks very much like an office building, 'Chairman tower' indeed.

[66nexus]

"Crime control is something casinos or any development aren't going to fix. "

Nexus: the design of the casinos has seriously ADDED to the crime scene in AC.

"ps, a bowling alley, movie theater and supermarket, while good things, are not foundations of a great city. Especially one as as small as AC."

Indeed it is the small amenities that ARE signs of a healthy livable place... the foundations of a great city are not 12 casinos.

I absolutely disagree that the design of the casinos themselves has added to crime. (perhaps a better argument could be that the simple neglect of abandoned properties/surface lots has allowed criminal activity to flourish.)

Perhaps low-cost housing which proves affordable to low-income residents has much more to do with that. Poverty-stricken neighborhoods have statistically (and significantly) higher crime rates than their higher-income counterparts.

and no argument: 12 casinos are also NOT the foundations of a great city. AC is the center of its metro, those 'small amenities' are perhaps what allows AC to get by so long without it. A city of 40,000+ does not need every feature within city limits. If such was the case, then even a very large city like NY would not make it.

[Intheknow]

Are you blind, deaf, and dumb? Open your eyes and look at the CITY, read the papers about the credit crises, who has provided any proof that they have full financing for building a casino, don't you think thay would shout it out if they did have financing? You are a dreamer, which is fine, but I don't believe what you gigel, acg, zippy keep croaning about is going to come true anytime soon. Get over it and keep feeding money into the Tropicana.

Casinos bring in un-desirables why do you think other Citys are going through a public outcry for casinos in "my backyard".

[Fabrizio]

Nexus: I'm not going to do your homework for you: do a little study on the subject. Bad architecture of this kind, breeds crime. Empty lots, parking lots, blank walls...

Barren streets create a petri dish for breeding crime. The casinos were built to TURN THERE BACKS on the city.

"A city of 40,000+ does not need every feature within city limits."

Yeah... a supermarket would be too much to ask.

------------------------

BTW: those tables at Califorinia Ave look very nice... the idea should be expanded and required.

In my town here, we have out door dining even into the winter: out door cafes have butane lit poles that provide out-door heat over the tables.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/15000kcal.jpg

[Intheknow]

The reason we don't have a supermarket is because they are unprofitable due to shoplifting. I have never encountered a city that was so lazy, where Gov. handouts are expected and demanded. No wonder the Irish, Italians, Jews left town.

This doesn't mean that the city should be in the shape it's in today. The Casino's philosophy is all wrong, more people means more business, no matter if they are coming to gamble or use the beach.

I can't wait to get AGGs take on his stay at Chelsea and the surrounding area.

Abandoned buildings and lots were mostly caused by the Casinos and the gold rush mentality of landowners when they approved gambling in 1976.

[66nexus]

Are you blind, deaf, and dumb? Open your eyes and look at the CITY, read the papers about the credit crises, who has provided any proof that they have full financing for building a casino, don't you think thay would shout it out if they did have financing? You are a dreamer, which is fine, but I don't believe what you gigel, acg, zippy keep croaning about is going to come true anytime soon. Get over it and keep feeding money into the Tropicana.

Casinos bring in un-desirables why do you think other Citys are going through a public outcry for casinos in "my backyard".

There you go again. Grouping your opponents. Where do I mention ANYTHING at all about financing and the Tropicana?:confused: I don't know what you're arguing, and I don't think you know either.

'casinos bring in undesirables' (and I believe Fabrizio was speaking more about the architecture than the gambling habit if that's what you're referencing)...and you have a problem with this yet choose to continue to live in Atlantic City, NJ...of all places. You're confusingly inconsistent.

[66nexus]

Nexus: I'm not going to do your homework for you: do a little study on the subject. Bad architecture of this kind, breeds crime. Empty lots, parking lots, blank walls...

Barren streets create a petri dish for breeding crime. The casinos were built to TURN THERE BACKS on the city.

"A city of 40,000+ does not need every feature within city limits."

Yeah... a supermarket would be too much to ask.



Fabrizio, I want you to do nothing more than to read my posts where I clearly stated that: "a better argument could be that the simple neglect of abandoned properties/surface lots has allowed criminal activity to flourish" (#1520).

At what point is an 'empty lot' architecture? When is a parking lot architecture? You grouped the casino architecture with abandoned properties. You stated, and I quote: "the design of the casinos has seriously ADDED to the crime scene in AC".

I acknowledged burned out lots, but you said 'architecture'...it sounds like you're blaming the bare casino walls for the bulk of AC crime. I disagree, as I've stated earlier, I link AC's crime to its poverty-stricken populace.

I know you like to cite how things were not as bad before casinos, but you also ignore that AC was already on a downward spiral, it just didn't get to its lowest levels because well...it was still the 70's. Hell, even Newark wasn't at its worse the immediate years following the riots.

[Intheknow]

Ummm, maybe I can't sell my abode? Your not opponents and if you were I wouldn't group you, I'd divide and conquer. Do you really think AC is going in the right direction?

Most surface lots were added to accomidate parking for the casinos, where the property owner could make a quick buck.

[66nexus]

Ummm, maybe I can't sell my abode? Your not opponents and if you were I wouldn't group you, I'd divide and conquer. Do you really think AC is going in the right direction?

Personally, I don't really get into where AC is 'headed'. I see new things and respond accordingly. Newer developments such as the Water club...I can like, something like the Chelsea/Revel I can wish it success, while other new developments, such as the Chairman tower, I'll criticize.

AC is going to have to find itself. The Vegas model was tried and failed, but I am still confident AC can thrive.

[Fabrizio]

Nexus: do you feel safer walking on a city street with store fronts, businesses, hotels, theatres, restaurants ( streets with a thousand eyes).... or on a street that is barren... fronted by a parking lot, blank wall etc?

You tell me.

Yes, blank walls and streets boarderd by parking lots are architectural choices.

Look what Trump offers at Pacific Avenue. It goes against every theory of what makes a street feel secure. This is not how you build a successful city:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/TajExpansionPlan.jpg

---

Nexus: some required reading for you:

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Life-Great-American-Cities/dp/067974195X


---

[Intheknow]

I think it can thrive also, but, we must start by getting rid of the local government. Do you know that the City of AC's budget is larger than all of Atlantic Countys, something like 300 million. Where is the money going? The Casinos should demand a better city yet they promote closing the city off from their precious cash cows.

We've been talking and talking and talking and nothing is ever done about any of the problems plaguing the city.

If it doesn't pertain to making a buck the Casinos don't want to hear it, everything is geared toward suckers getting into a casino and spending their money.

[Fabrizio]

Sorry guys, but I feel the city will NEVER thrive, or at least never meet it's potential, if it continues to be built as per the Trump illustration above.

Nexus wrote: "...you like to cite how things were not as bad before casinos, but you also ignore that AC was already on a downward spiral, it just didn't get to its lowest levels because well...it was still the 70's. Hell, even Newark wasn't at its worse the immediate years following the riots."

I honestly do not believe the city would have reached the depths that it had in the ensuing years. It is the speculation that came from gambling that ripped the city apart.

It can be debated, but my theory is that the city could have rebounded without gambling.

Other cities had rioters tear their cities apart: AC had speculation do it. AC was in decline, it had the inlet and Pauline's Prarie, but it was not Camden, it was not Newark, it was not North Philadelphia... it was not a burned out urban jungle.

You do not seem to be aware that while AC was declining, losing business to Miami etc... new development WAS going on. The late 60's and early 70's saw the addition to Convention Hall, The huge Holiday Inn on the B'walk, The modern addition to the Blenhiem facing the boardwalk, new small motels throughout the city, the Gordon's Alley project. ... but gambling was to be the shot in the arm... something to truly turn things around.

The real bright spot with gambling is that it HAS offered jobs and opportunity to thousands of people... and that's no small thing. In that sense gambling has been a blessing to many.

But AC? The brick and mortar city? (and that's what this forum is about) Still after 30 years it's mostly a dump.


---

[giselehaslice]

I agree with Nexus about the crime problems. Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them. Buildings do not cause crime, its the people who use them that do.

I find it very interesting that you highlight the "development" of motels and Holiday Inns, because if anyone even tried to post info on a new motel being built in AC right now, you would laugh at them.

[Fabrizio]

The first Holiday Inn in Atlantic City was a top-of-the-line hotel and it was on the Boardwalk near the Convention Hall. It later became the Playboy Casino... then the Atlantis and then it became the Trump.

The smaller Holiday Inn was a well maintained property and is now the Chelsea Hotel.

So what in the world are you talking about?

(interesting BTW that the recladded Holiday Inn looked very much like the Water Club or the Borgata: http://www.library.unlv.edu/arch/events/stern/playboyth.jpg)

As for: "Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them."

Uh... yeah.

[giselehaslice]

Okay then, what about the other motels you talk of? And Holiday Inn- top of the line? Now thats laughable.

"As for: Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them."
"Uh... yeah."

They don't, so what are you trying to say?

[Fabrizio]

(Oh boy...)

Holiday Inn Crown Plaza was the one on the Boardwalk... 40 years ago this was one of the better hotel chains. Holiday Inn had inexpensive motels along the highways and the up-scale Crown Plaza's in city centers. It was their attempt at competing with Hilton.

---

"Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them. They don't, so what are you trying to say?"

Ever hear the phrase: "like talking to a blank wall" ?

[Intheknow]

Gesel, once again, quit while you're behind.

Cleaner areas usually stay clean, because of human nature people tend not to litter when there is no litter around and vice versa. Blight is like a cancer, when untreated it tends to lead to death, even if you put twelve band-aids on it.

Fabrizio doesn't laugh about the posts of new hotels/casinos, I do, because I know it is impossible due to the financial markets! You talk about all these rumors and falsehoods-MGM, Pinnacle, Revel, AC Gateway.... get over it, it ain't going to happen anytime soon. In fact, AC may lose more Casinos than it gains in the next three years.

[giselehaslice]

Thanks Fabrizio, but again, I'm not asking about the Hojo on the boardwalk. You talk of other motel developments through the city in the '70s. If you mentioned it, it must be really worth it. I'm so excited to see how luxurious Atlantic City's motels were in the 1970s. And the architecture, must have been simply breathaking! Still waiting for them.

Yes, I've heard that phrase. In fact, I feel like I'm talking to a blank wall right now.

Intheknow, if anyone spreads rumors, it is you. You make obscene remarks about completely false info. I think you go and dream this stuff up and post it just to get a rise out of us.

[acplayer]

Great pics AGG. Also, good eye Fabrizio on the new facade near the Irish Pub that reflects the old Dennis Hotel wings. I think the facades and a huge improvement...the only problem is none of it is organic. There are no small business owners doing this on their own like they used to in the past. Same with Atlantic Ave. It's all corporate and CRDA money, not grass roots from people that live in and have a vested interest in A.C. like Intheknow and Fabrizio were saying.

Dennis Hotel Neo-Gothic wings
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acdennis1.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acdennis2.jpg

[American Gaming Guru]

Fabrizio, quick correction. If I recall correctly, the original Holiday Inn still stands today. It is The East Tower of Trump Plaza pictured here on the right:

http://www.cityatlantic.com/pictures-travel/hotels/985095.jpg

Bob Guccione purchased the hotel in the 80's and attempted to incorporate it into his planned Penthouse Hotel/Casino project. He erected the steel behind the hotel (famously around houses and businesses) and then ran out of money. The steel stood for years until Trump bought the project and took all the steel down. Trump then renovated the exisiting Holiday Inn and incorporated it into Trump Plaza.

The building that you posted was built from the ground up by a partnership of Playboy/Elisnore Corp. It opened as the Atlantic City Playboy but was short lived as Hef was denied a gaming license. Elisnore then assumed control and re-named the property Atlantis. Atlantis was never a successful business (many blamed the gaming floor lay-out) and eventually the Atlantis went out of business.

Trump bought this one too, closed the casino (at the time no one was permitted to own more than three licenses which Trump already had). He then rebranded the building as a non-casino hotel resort called the Trump Regency.

Once the limit on gaming licenses was lifted (after much Trump lobbying) Trump then re-opened the casino and was re-branded again as the Trump World's Fair at Trump Plaza.

Again, as we all know the casino did not perform up to expectations. But this time the property was closed and demolished.

There is more to the story upon what came next, but we can leave that for another time.

If anyone wants to know why it remains an ugly vacant lot on the boardwalk, I will be happy to go on.

[66nexus]

Nexus: do you feel safer walking on a city street with store fronts, businesses, hotels, theatres, restaurants ( streets with a thousand eyes).... or on a street that is barren... fronted by a parking lot, blank wall etc?

You tell me.

Yes, blank walls and streets boarderd by parking lots are architectural choices.

---

I'm not arguing what 'feels' safer (hell...store fronts, businesses, could even feel safer than a street with a forest next to it).

What you stated was that this seriously contributed to crime. As gise stated earlier, I do not think the walls are to be of complete blame for crime.

[66nexus]

acplayer how old is that pic? I suppose the dollar stores started early:confused:

And the gold-cladded Trump world's fair casino resembles the Water Club in color only.

[acplayer]

66nexus that photo is from 1978, before Bally's tore it down. As far as crime goes, I think they need to put more cops back walking the beat.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acpolicebw.jpg

[zipburn]

seriously people need to stop responding to InTheKnow, this guy is full of himself and thinks that in the 2.25 yrs he has been here(formerly from one of the most disgusting citites in the world filthadelphia) that he somehow is some kind of development expert is absurd. This guy bleeds ignorance full time and is a disgrace of a poster, he posts falsehoods on a daily basis but the people who post the truth are punished because they over react to his BULLSHIT!

[zipburn]

i have never heard someone sound soooooo stupid in my life as ITK

[Fabrizio]

Nexus: re: the correlation between architecture and crime.

I am not stating my opinions. I am stating well documented facts between architecture/urban design and crime. For some study on the subject I have reccomended to you “The Death and Life of Great American Cities” by Jane Jacobs. You might also do well to read "Defensible Space: - Crime Prevention through Urban Design" by architect Oscar Newman.

Again I will repeat: the AC formula of fortress hotels that turn their back on the city with their streets turned into no-man's land void of life ....breeds crime. Even simple logic would indicate that.

And BTW, refrain from mis-quoting me. I did NOT say that "the walls are to be of complete blame for crime." What I actually said was: "the design of the casinos has seriously added to the crime scene in AC".

Got it?


-----

The Hotel Dennis: before gambling came in, the hotel still featured one of the world's finest jewelly stores: Traubert&Hoeffer (outposts in Paris, Palm Beach) as well as a Nat Sherman boutique. Sad to see that photo with the t-shirt shop.

Please note the pristine condition of the hotel. Note how all of the intricate detailing (despite years facing the ocean) is PERFECT.

-----

Gisel: my exact quote is the following: "You do not seem to be aware that while AC was declining, losing business to Miami etc... new development WAS going on. The late 60's and early 70's saw the addition to Convention Hall, The huge Holiday Inn on the B'walk, The modern addition to the Blenhiem facing the boardwalk, new small motels throughout the city, the Gordon's Alley project."

Nowhere do I say luxurious motels. Those are your words. My point was that people were still investing in the city, construction was still going on.... people still believed in the place. I want to make the point that the city was declining but it was not in the horrible condition of many other cities in NJ at the time.

BTW: interesting to note that that those motels built (mostly) in Chelsea at the time, where built for vactioners who came to Atlantic City to stay for days and to enjoy the city and beach. They hosted families. In other words a type of traveller the city today would also like to attract. The motels had more in common with the traditional small hotels that were all through the city in it's hey-day. About their architecture: modest but it is curious that Wildwood has chosen to landmark them.

[Intheknow]

Yes, and 2 months ago most here stated that MGM has no problems, Pinnacle is on track and to this day you say Revel is on track, time will tell. Yet, I'm full of shit.

AGG did you see the Chelsea Rolling chairs? The reason I ask is the owner of these chairs stated they have not paid the bill for these and they were being taken away. This matters because if they can't pay for something that was heavily promoted like the chairs they are in trouble. How was your stay? Was check-in/out o.k. How about the 5th floor? Was it busy?

As for Philadelphia, Center City is one of the most walkable citys in the world. It still maintains very diverse/eclectic neighborhoods. Everyone portrays Philadelphia by North Philadelphia AKA the Badlands, this is a very small portion of the outer city and on a positive note you can score some good quality drugs their and low quality prostitutes.

[lofter1]

Did someone mention crack whores?

The current economy may bring us a resurgence.

[Fabrizio]

^ And AC is a great place to work.... so many parking lots.... perfect for a 5 dollar quicky between parked buses.

Hey, at the end of the day it adds up!

----

AGGuru: thanks for refreshing my memory about the Holiday Inn and clearing things up. It does still stand as the Trump.

In that photo you can get an idea how big the HolidayInn was. Remember, this was a time when new hotels of that size in a city center really meant something. New hotel activity was mostly on highways and airports.

--

[66nexus]

Nexus: re: the correlation between architecture and crime.

I am not stating my opinions. I am stating well documented facts between architecture/urban design and crime. For some study on the subject I have reccomended to you “The Death and Life of Great American Cities” by Jane Jacobs. You might also do well to read "Defensible Space: - Crime Prevention through Urban Design" by architect Oscar Newman.

Again I will repeat: the AC formula of fortress hotels that turn their back on the city with their streets turned into no-man's land void of life ....breeds crime. Even simple logic would indicate that.

And BTW, refrain from mis-quoting me. I did NOT say that "the walls are to be of complete blame for crime." What I actually said was: "the design of the casinos has seriously added to the crime scene in AC".

Got it?




Fab, I really need you to do something for me. I really, really need you to read my posts because so far you're not.

I did not quote you as saying the walls are to be of complete blame for crime, I said 'gise' as in giselhaslice said it (in so many words and I agreed).

You DID say it has seriously added to AC's crime. This is what I am attacking.

It's like saying that Newark's fortress Gateway design has seriously added to crime in Newark as if it is the primary contributor.

I choose my words very carefully, I never disagreed that surface lots/blank walls don't help breed crime, but I want to know how you came to the conclusion that it seriously added to AC's crime.

Serious is a strong word and can be classified as an extreme. So when you say something seriously does something else, you're talking about a substantial amount, to an overwhelming degree, the main contributor, etc.

-mentioning logic does not back up your claim.

[66nexus]

Gisel: my exact quote is the following: "You do not seem to be aware that
Nowhere do I say luxurious motels. Those are your words. My point was that people were still investing in the city, construction was still going on.... people still believed in the place.
them.

So you can knock newer developments (bad architecture and such), but when folks knock one of the older ones you simply imply: well at least they were investing back then...

couldn't the same be implied for today's developments? (whether you approve or not?)

[Intheknow]

They are investing for themselves, they are not making improvements in/for the city, which in the long run hurts everyone. Casinos have proven they are not urban developers, yet AC officials/city planner go along with what ever they want to do.

[Fabrizio]

Oh... well then we agree that the walls are NOT "to be of complete blame for crime."

However, if your own logic does not lead you to see that blank walls (etc & etc) do infact breed crime... and make it easier for a criminal to act... I have mentioned 2 authors that are considered to be authorities on the subject.

I claim that the design of new developments in AC and their lack of urban friendliness has seriously added to the crime scene in AC.

Note that the highest crime rates in AC (outside of the traditionally poor areas with their own particular set of problems) are those areas with the lowest street density. The area of Pacific to the B'walk was always the safest area of AC... not so today. Unless a good system of security cameras is set up... you can expect crime around the area of the Chairman Tower with it's parking lot on Pacific and side street blank walls to remain the same:

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nj/atlantic-city/crime/

[giselehaslice]

Gisel: my exact quote is the following: "You do not seem to be aware that while AC was declining, losing business to Miami etc... new development WAS going on. The late 60's and early 70's saw the addition to Convention Hall, The huge Holiday Inn on the B'walk, The modern addition to the Blenhiem facing the boardwalk, new small motels throughout the city, the Gordon's Alley project."

Nowhere do I say luxurious motels. Those are your words. My point was that people were still investing in the city, construction was still going on.... people still believed in the place. I want to make the point that the city was declining but it was not in the horrible condition of many other cities in NJ at the time.


Okay, thats nice, but theres development going on in the city right now which I think everyone can agree on being better than a motel. I just find it kinda hypocritical when you have so much critisizm for the new developments but think its really important to mention that the new motels were being built back in the '70s.....

[Fabrizio]

Isn't it fascinating that that so much of what I have written about here in the past year, is repeated in the book: "Boardwalk of Dreams: Atlantic City and the Fate of Urban America" ... a book that I was only made aware of about a month ago.

Some excerpts of a review of the book from the New Orleans Times-Picayune:

"Despite these impressive numbers, in "Boardwalk of Dreams" Bryant Simon concludes that "the gaming industry has not saved Atlantic City.""

"Twenty-six years of gaming, he argues, have left the city in many ways worse off than it was in the mid-1970s when it was a decaying, honky tonk resort whose best days had long passed. Today, Simon maintains, Atlantic City is a dysfunctional place with a jarring landscape of fortress-like casinos surrounded by boarded storefronts and derelict houses. Only a few blocks from Donald Trump's "gaudy and gilded showplace" the Taj Mahal, "are some of the loneliest, most desolate streets in America."

"In 1976, New Jersey voters approved casino gambling in Atlantic City. Confident that jobs and glittering prosperity were on the way, joyful residents in the city's working class neighborhoods literally danced in the streets. "Everyone," one local leader recalled, "was a millionaire that night." Curtis Kugel, the owner of a venerable Atlantic City seafood restaurant, spoke for many when he predicted that his town would "turn around and be what it was in the twenties and thirties." The "boardwalk of dreams" would be reborn."

"When the first casino opened two years later, such hopes quickly faded. Most of the jobs created by the casinos went to non-residents. Because casino managers did not want employees competing with gamblers for parking spaces, they built "intercept lots" outside of town and bused employees from their cars to their jobs. As result, few workers "ever stepped foot on Atlantic City streets" and "there was little chance for any of the casino riches to trickle down into the city."

"Restaurateurs and amusement pier operators who hoped to feed and entertain giant crowds also found disappointment. It soon became apparent that the new tourists seldom left the casinos. Gamblers lined up at casino buffets instead. And casino architects fashioned their buildings in a manner that made access to the boardwalk and beach difficult. Casino patrons remained sealed in a windowless, clockless
maze of slot machines until their money ran out and tour operators herded them back onto buses."

Atlantic City's ethnic neighborhoods also suffered. Speculators and casino corporations bought houses in those districts, tore them down, and built parking lots. During the early 1980s, bulldozers leveled one third of the city's homes. Local efforts to resist such change proved futile and residents who refused to sell found that their quality of life quickly deteriorated. All of the city's movie theaters met the wrecking ball. Buses rumbled down the streets at all hours. Crime rose by eighty percent. Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

"On the boardwalk, the old hotels and restaurants began to shut their doors. Luigi's, Carl Kruger's restaurant that had once served a thousand dinners a night to hungry vacationers, closed and made way for a casino. The massive Marlborough-Blenheim Hotel, a faded masterpiece of orientalist architecture, was torn down and replaced by a Bally's casino "that looked like an unimaginative merging of a Day's Inn and a K-Mart." Even Reese Palley, one of Atlantic City's most ardent gambling proponents, eventually lamented the changes casinos had wrought. "We were all innocents," he said later. "We didn't know what would happen...We didn't have to sacrifice everything."

"Although "Boardwalk of Dreams" paints a depressing portrait of present day Atlantic City, Simon's love for the city and its history is clear.

"Casinos, Simon concludes, have not made Atlantic City a better community. The glory days have not returned. Instead, the "Queen of resorts" is now "a stark, vacant, poor city with a beach, the Boardwalk, and,...twelve separate, inward looking casinos...that leave only crumbs on the Monopoly streets around them."

http://www.amazon.com/Boardwalk-Dreams-Atlantic-Urban-America/dp/0195308093/ref=pd_sim_b_1

[giselehaslice]

Your right! I'd much rather have all of Atlantic City be boarded up and have rotting motels, housing projects at the entrance to the city, cheesy carnies, creepy old buildings, and rusting piers. It would be just great if there were no modern hotels with any modern conveniences. I would just adore imagining what could happen with all the nothingness.

Fabrizio, you don't realize that if gaming never came to AC it would be just like Asbury Park. It does not matter how beautiful the architecture is (AP has some beautiful buildings), people WILL NOT go if there is nothing to do. If AC didnt have casinos, what would you go there for? You might say the beach, but no, I would pick that as one of the last beaches to go to on the NJ coast. The city does have it's fair share of problems, but gaming has NOT made them worse. It has provided jobs for thousands of people, and if that's a bad thing in your mind, then I really don't know what to say.

[Fabrizio]

"then I really don't know what to say."

Is that a promise?

[giselehaslice]

No, it's not.

[Intheknow]

What other developments are going on in AC besides half of Revel? Well, the facades that, at the current rate, should be done by 2011. Talk, talk, talk. Show me the money.

People are being laid off in the Casino industry in AC, does this indicate growth?

Wildwood is jumping every weekend in the fall. Last week was Irish festival, this week Italian festival and big trucks on beach(Thunder on the beach), not to mention firemen convention, bike weekend, film festivals etc.. they really know how to extend their summer. In AC if you pick up this weeks weekly paper it's the same old, same old. In fact if you picked up last years weekly for this week you wouuldn't know the difference. We didn't have the seafood festival this year, the Atlantique City Antique show-which used to be largest on east coast- is now combined with the wine and food show at the convention center(new). We are contracting slowly but surely. One day these Casinos may wake up and realize the more people in the city the better for them.

Gisel, any suggestions for an exciting weekend that doesn't involve gambling or drinking?

Also, their should be something interesting in AC press (the weekest paper in America) soon concerning the beach dunes in NJ, I'm still pissed about the lack of ocean views from boardwalk. By the way these dunes were untouched, again, by the latest Nor' easter. I don't trust the DEP, or Corps of engineers, although most of you appear to have faith in what they tell you.

[66nexus]

I claim that the design of new developments in AC and their lack of urban friendliness has seriously added to the crime scene in AC.

Note that the highest crime rates in AC (outside of the traditionally poor areas with their own particular set of problems) are those areas with the lowest street density. lot on Pacific and side street blank walls to remain the same:

That must be convenient for you to exclude in the name of an argument: '...outside the traditionally poor areas...' in which I said from the beginning that AC's poverty-stricken populace is the primary factor...you want to blame walls for their 'serious contribution'.

[Fabrizio]

Absolutely. Not only do I want to blame bad urban design on breeding crime... but so do most urban planners working today. I believe bad urban design/bad architectural choices ( blank walled streets etc) have seriously added to the city's crime rate.

And I completely agree with you that AC's poverty-stricken populace is the primary factor. I never said otherwise.

----

Re: The dunes. Really... they look like a spite fence.... as if LasVegas officials paid off the Corps of engineers to make them as ugly and obtrusive as possible.

[Intheknow]

I guess I'll go bum tipping for some fun.

[giselehaslice]

It's amazing how you get offended when I complain about your negativity. As for the dunes, I don't understand the whole drama over them, they are a natural thing at the shore. Granted these dunes are not natural, but have you ever seen the dunes in Avalon, Cape May Point, Island Beach State Park? All the cactus and other interesting plants are really cool.

I have asked you this before Fabrizio. HOW MANY YEARS AGO WERE YOU LAST IN ATLANTIC CITY?

[acplayer]

I forgot to post this earlier in response to AGG's pic of Trumps conversion of the Holiday Inn...this is what predated the Holiday Inn.

1968
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acconventionhall1968.jpg

[Fabrizio]

Gisel: the last time I was in Atlantic City it was to see the Dave Clark Five at the Steel Pier.

Why do you ask?

--

[giselehaslice]

Well I'm not sure who that is, but thanks for answering. I ask becuase I'm curious to see when was the last time you have been there in person, able to see the new developments and stuff. I dont know how many years ago that was though...

[Intheknow]

One of the ways you can tell it's dead in the city- 10 Jitneys drivers taking a break on Atlantic Ave. at 1 o'clock on a Saturday! The crickets are chirping in AC this weekend.

Any development to speak of, anyone...anyone?

[acplayer]

Well this article from todays Press pretty much means that A.C. will be stuck with the dunes blocking the ocean view. Unbelievable how badly A.C. is managed. Also, Fabrizio, as far as all the new developments Gisele is talking about....at the city level you only have The Walk, new Boardwalk facades, the Pier and the Chelsea. While these are positive developments at the same time there's probably another 20 vacant lots and the once nice, solid Chelsea neighborhood and Ducktown have deteriorated a lot. There are no small business owners, entrepreneurs, young professionals, middle class families, etc...living in the city with their families opening stores, restaurants, amusements, etc...

Ocean City loses appeal to cut height of dunes
Ocean City lost its fight against the state to scoop sand off the tops of ocean view-blocking dunes following a state appellate court decision released Friday.
Ocean City appealed the Depart-ment of Environmental Protection's findings that led to the denial of a permit the city needed to lower the height of some dunes.

[acplayer]

Hey Fabrizio, is this you after the Dave Clark Five show?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acbwc1970.jpg

[Fabrizio]

I beg your pardon? That's me modelling for Tanya Hawaiian suntan lotion
.

[RYinNJ]

Lmao....

[Intheknow]

Now that's funny!

The only improvement to the boardwalk from the above picture is that they have installed old fashioned lights, only twenty more years to go before we get actual roofs on our pavilions.

AC no longer has a community, neighborhoods etc... Areas of the city are now defined by the amount of crime and drug traffic. This is sad but true.

Gisel, the Dave Clark Five was an anti-terrorism group that guarded the Atlantic Coast of the U.S.A. from the Commie bastards.

[66nexus]

One of the ways you can tell it's dead in the city- 10 Jitneys drivers taking a break on Atlantic Ave. at 1 o'clock on a Saturday! The crickets are chirping in AC this weekend.


Somehow I think you...enjoy that. Like celebrating it. Jitneys are a new measure of city life...those god-awful things.

[66nexus]

Absolutely. Not only do I want to blame bad urban design on breeding crime... but so do most urban planners working today. I believe bad urban design/bad architectural choices ( blank walled streets etc) have seriously added to the city's crime rate.

And I completely agree with you that AC's poverty-stricken populace is the primary factor. I never said otherwise.


Added...okay, seriously added, I can't agree. So I'll agree to disagree on the matter.


-that area in front of the T. Plaza area is 'charming'.

[Intheknow]

Jitneys are not a new measure they always have been a measure. Like how many buses come into the city each day, how many beach chairs were rented in a day. Many things measure how a city is doing, I don't enjoy it I wish the city were bursting at thhe seams.

[Fabrizio]

Nexus: just know however that these are not my opinions, these are fundamental concepts of good urban design and responsible architecture... and that's why there are laws in place in cities all over the world to direct development in a pedestrian friendly way.

Again I will suggest that you do a little study on the subject... but I do understand, in your case, if you chose not to.

-----

Re: the area in front of the TPlaza.

It is indeed charming, packed with about 10 businesses: jewellry stores, shoe store, diner, candy shop etc. All opening out on to the B'walk. Note people looking into the windows, standing in doorways. The frontage is friendly and being used. The busnesses are modest... but not squalid. From an urban design standpoint... that block functions beautifully. Compare it to the WildWest decorated blank wall and other such alienating nonsense that came later. That is the stuff that's squalid indeed..

Is it glittery and luxurious? No... but it's on par with an average block on Broadway around 40 years ago. That is what the "Main Street" street scenes of American cities mostly looked like in that era.

The buildings are (with the exception of the James' building) dumpy... but in fact: they are waiting to be torn down to make way for the Holiday Inn.

Isn't it fascinating however that AC's own CRDA is spending millions to bring back that same modest low-rise architecture? Note how those crappy bay-windowed buildings in the photo above are basically being mimicked here:

http://www.njcrda.com/facade-1500Block.html

Now, you guys tell me: why have they decided to do that?

-------------------

The James' building however: it is an absolute 1940's late-deco/moderne-style neon-wrapped jewel that would be landmarked today.

I have a dim recollection of being taken there as kid for hot chocolate on a cold rainy winter day. My uncle had taken my cousin and I into AC to see a movie and then we stopped there afterward. The entrance was on the side street. There was a long counter where we sat.

ACplay thanks for that photo!
-----

[zipburn]

One of the ways you can tell it's dead in the city- 10 Jitneys drivers taking a break on Atlantic Ave. at 1 o'clock on a Saturday! The crickets are chirping in AC this weekend.

Any development to speak of, anyone...anyone?


Actually they do that almost every saturday, they have lunch or a meeting in the park(guessing)... I see it all the time


If you actually went into the establishments you would see that most people are on the inside of the buildings because today wasn't the nicest of days but you can continue to believe what happens around that stupid park dictates the amount of people in the city...

[Intheknow]

I guess you can't tell how many people went to a ball game by how many hot dogs were sold, or beer.

Since when do jitney drivers, who rely on fares for their living, stop for lunch? Ten at a time? You obviously never spoke with a jitney driver, what they being way beneath you. The casinos were so busy today I had to wait in line to get on a slot machine.

Once again the stupid park is a memorial to our war veterans.

By the way, where are those solar chairs that the Chelsea promoted?

[66nexus]

I guess you can't tell how many people went to a ball game by how many hot dogs were sold, or beer.

Since when do jitney drivers, who rely on fares for their living, stop for lunch? Ten at a time? You obviously never spoke with a jitney driver, what they being way beneath you. The casinos were so busy today I had to wait in line to get on a slot machine.

Once again the stupid park is a memorial to our war veterans.



To shred your argument about hot dogs sold, if one person had two hot dogs

What on the green earth does my talking to jitney drivers have to do with anything?

Jitney drivers beneath me? I didn't say it...but you did, so perhaps that is how you truly feel then?

And now you're a slot player?

[66nexus]

Nexus: just know however that these are not my opinions, these are fundamental concepts of good urban design and responsible architecture... and that's why there are laws in place in cities all over the world to direct development in a pedestrian friendly way.

Again I will suggest that you do a little study on the subject... but I do understand, in your case, if you chose not to.

-----

Attempting to change the argument...again. I never disagreed that blank walls can add to criminal activity, but you said it 'seriously' added to AC's criminal activity.

And how do you justify? With this response:

"Note that the highest crime rates in AC "outside of the traditionally poor areas with their own particular set of problems"

As I previously stated, it must be convenient to leave out that 'small' factor.

And I stated this at post #1548

"I choose my words very carefully, I never disagreed that surface lots/blank walls don't help breed crime, but I want to know how you came to the conclusion that it seriously added to AC's crime."

Remember that? Perhaps 'seriously' is a strong word you should not use.

[Intheknow]

First I was speaking of zippy.

Ummm over 180 games you can get a good idea of how many people attended the game by hot dog sales, one guy had two hot dogs on game 101 but on game 140 not one person had two? People do studies on this, it's called stocking, inventory..

I'm not that stupid to gamble at a Casino, the slot statement was sarcasm.

How's MGM progressing? Its stock price?

For you to think AC is changing for the better is foolish, these new "projects" are the same as in 1976. These new Casinos will be obsolete in 20 years, yet the older hotels that stood for 80 years in AC would have stood the test of time to this day.

Seriously, I think you are naive.

[66nexus]

First I was speaking of zippy.

Ummm over 180 games you can get a good idea of how many people attended the game by hot dog sales, one guy had two hot dogs on game 101 but on game 140 not one person had two? People do studies on this, it's called stocking, inventory..

I'm not that stupid to gamble at a Casino, the slot statement was sarcasm.

How's MGM progressing? Its stock price?

For you to think AC is changing for the better is foolish, these new "projects" are the same as in 1976. These new Casinos will be obsolete in 20 years, yet the older hotels that stood for 80 years in AC would have stood the test of time to this day.

Seriously, I think you are naive.

Okay, I guess you didn't detect my own sarcasm about the hot dogs...and not for nothing, I think they determine attendance by ticket sales.

MGM? Stock price...? Huh?

You're terribly confusing. I notice when you're responding you tend to go off on tangents with no clear direction...?

So now you have me saying that I: 'think AC is changing for the better', even though not too long ago you asked me did I think AC was 'headed in the right direction' and I clearly stated that 'I didn't know', I judge new developments as they come. That is of course you were talking to Zip again?

As far as new developments being the same as in the '70s. If you say so.

[zipburn]

Since when do jitney drivers, who rely on fares for their living, stop for lunch? Ten at a time? You obviously never spoke with a jitney driver, what they being way beneath you.

Funny because I personally know quite a few jitney drivers, they are retired city workers bringing in extra income to supplement their pensions... you can't be poor and afford a jitney license.. so again can you please use facts or is that beneath you? If you were so inclined go out next saturday at the same time, I bet you will see the jitneys in the same spot parked across from the knife and fork and if you look in the park you will magically be amazed that some people are wearing shirts that have the jitney emblem on their chest. It's one of the few parts in the city where they are able to park in masses.

Since your such the big business expert, if atlantic city has been going down hill since 1976, why would anyone in their right mind invest in the city 2.5 years ago? Since thats you I'd like to hear an answer.

[acplayer]

Here are some very recent posts from A.C. gamblers off Tripadvisor that I think are a good indicator of activity as well as the local barometers such as Jitney drivers, etc... Overall, A.C. has a pretty good summer but the town really needs to get its act together and soon.

Posted on: 9:34 pm, September 24, 2008
We stopped by yesterday and had a drink with a friend who has worked at Bally's since day one.



The WWW was dead with 6 tables open and a few people playing slots. She told us the WWW would be closing Monday through Thursday since business was slow during the week. Bally's had laid of 35 employees with more to come through retirement incentives.

Posted on: 10:58 pm, September 25, 2008



Most of the employees are blaming the economy for the slow down. The Claridge could be the next to see areas closed during the week.


Posted on: 10:51 pm, yesterday
Was there this morning. Total Rewards was closed downstairs, Mountain Bar was open. Passed very few people walking to Gertie's. Went for a bagel and 9:30 and there was no line. If I counted 10 people in that part of the casino, that would be a high number.

[Intheknow]

Zippy- I never said it was going downhill since 1976.
Jitny drivers utilize the park, I thought you said no one was ever
in the park.

The Casinos of today Borgota, Harrahs are the same old, same old but with pools and a spa and a couple more bars and restaurants. Do you marvel at their craftmanship? They are pre-fab, cheap.

As for trip advisor- There is a better chance of AC losing Casinos in the next two years than gaining any new ones.

[Fabrizio]

Nexus: Those blank walls (a breeding ground for crime) have seriously added to AC crime rate.

As the author Bryant Simon (see earlier post) talks of "some of the loneliest, most desolate streets in America." If you don't think such environments seriously add to a cities crime rate, I have listed 2 other distinquished authors that write about the issue of Architecture/urban design and crime. Oh... I see... perhaps Atlantic City, of all places, is immune from the phenomena.

Furthermore: Your original statement was: "I absolutely disagree that the design of the casinos themselves has added to crime."

And yet in your post above you state: "I never disagreed that blank walls can add to criminal activity..."

I'm glad to see you are slowly coming around... but please Nexus, give us a break.


-----

AC employment: Down.

From the PressofAtlanticCity Friday, September 12, 2008:

Atlantic City near bottom in ranking of metro areas on economy

An annual list of the country's top 200 "best-performing" large metropolitan areas has Atlantic City near the bottom again. It slipped to No. 187 overall this year, down from No. 179 in 2007.

The Milken Institute, an economic think tank in Santa Monica, Calif., bases its ranking on job growth, wages and salaries, and high-tech sector growth. Atlantic City ranked near the bottom in each of the individual categories, finishing as low as No. 198 in one-year job growth between 2006 and 2007.

In that time, the Atlantic City-Hammonton area saw a decline of about 4,000 jobs, according to U.S. Department of Labor statistics.

The closing of the Sands Casino Hotel in November 2006 resulted in the loss of about 2,100 jobs.

"It's over such a long period of time that casino employment has stagnated, (and) it has begun to take its toll," economist Richard Perniciaro said.

Meanwhile, in an accompanying Milken Institute list of the top 124 "best-performing" small metro areas, the Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton area finished 110th, up from 118th in 2007.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/106/story/255559.html

---

^ These are recent satististic, but apparently AC employment has been going down for quite some time. While the above article covers from 2006-2008, it is interesting to read excerpts from this article in Forbes that covers to 2004:

--

(And no.... this title was NOT written by IntheKnow.... it was wrtten by Forbes)

Atlantic City Is Dangerous And Depraved

Atlantic City has been in a no-growth mode for a while now, and with casinos opening up all over, there does not seem to be much growth in the city's future, either.

The fairly good news for the seaside town is that gambling is up, according to the most recent full-year statistics published by the CCC. The "total casino win" in Atlantic City rose 7.6% between 2003 and 2004 to $4.8 billion, from $4.5 billion. But all of the increase was accounted for by a new hotel, the Borgata, a joint venture of Boyd Gaming and MGM Mirage.

Take out its $369.6 million increase in wins, and the city's win total would have taken a slight dip. The win in Trump's three casinos fell by about $9 million. Caesar's, Harrah's, Hilton and Bally's all fell by anywhere from 0.3% to 4.9%.

As usual, nearly three-quarters (74%) of the win was from slot machines--the favored game of lower-rent gamblers.

Still, a gain is a gain, even if it was enjoyed mainly by just one of the dozen casinos (or entertainment resorts, if you prefer). But the idea behind Atlantic City wasn't to boost the take of a few hotels; it was to spur development and employment more generally.

This idea has been stopped in its tracks.

Even among the casinos, employment is declining. In 2000, the casinos employed 47,426. In 2004, the last year for which data are available, the number dipped to 45,501, the CCC says. It's likely that the casino employment total increased a bit with the opening of the Borgata, but overall it's been pretty flat.

The wider view is bleaker still. Employment overall in the city, after rising in the 1990s, has fallen from 164,100 in 2000 to 149,500 in 2004, a 9% drop, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Even what the bureau classifies as "leisure and hospitality" employment is down sharply, from 70,300 to 57,400.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/05/05/cx_da_0505topnews.html


---

[66nexus]

Nexus: Those blank walls (a breeding ground for crime) have seriously added to AC crime rate.

Furthermore: Your original statement was: "I absolutely disagree that the design of the casinos themselves has added to crime."

And yet in your post above you state: "I never disagreed that blank walls can add to criminal activity..."

I'm glad to see you are slowly coming around... but please Nexus, give us a break.

---


I stand by my original statement. I said that the casino construct themselves did not add to crime, HOWEVER, I did NOT disagree that blank walls CAN add to crime. Read between the lines as I choose my words very carefully:

post #1548:

"...I never disagreed that surface lots/blank walls don't help breed crime, but I want to know how you came to the conclusion that it seriously added to AC's crime."

Don't say give 'us' a break, this is you and I here on this one.

I still disagree that the walls seriously added to AC's crime, the poverty-stricken populace did, in which you already ceded.

Sorry, I am not coming around.

[Fabrizio]

"I said that the casino construct themselves did not add to crime, HOWEVER, I did NOT disagree that blank walls CAN add to crime."

Keep trying.

-----

There are no small business owners, entrepreneurs, young professionals, middle class families, etc...living in the city with their families opening stores, restaurants, amusements, etc...

An interesting article about Brighton England in the NYTimes. 30 years ago this city was a dump.... but fortunately it's great places were not torn down. I believe AC could have taken this turn... if it's beautiful old places were still standing. Brighton today:

36 Hours in Brighton, England

NOT long ago, the English port town of Brighton was considered louche and seedy, a has-been resort with crumbling piers and weathered hotels for so-called dirty weekends. But with cosmopolitan London just an hour away, it was a matter of time before this funky town regained its color. In recent years, chic Londoners have rediscovered Brighton’s lanes and Regency-style buildings, turning it into what’s now called “the gay capital of England." When the weekend rolls around, London’s media and design elites arrive in a caravan of Jaguars, check into boutique hotels and disappear into dance-till-dawn clubs. The scene is reminiscent of Miami Beach, except it is the chilly English Channel at the end of the boardwalk.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/travel/28hours.html?8dpc

Please take a look at these (The Steel Pier and the Blenhiem?):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/supercamel/1303783526/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twocrabs/94996069/in/set-72057594058602438/


--

[66nexus]

"I said that the casino construct themselves did not add to crime, HOWEVER, I did NOT disagree that blank walls CAN add to crime."

Keep trying.

--

Translation: you have nothing.

seatbelts, CAN save lives...they don't always do. Bullet-proof vests CAN bluff bullets, it doesn't always happen. Blank walls CAN add to crime (even though you said it 'seriously' did)...in AC's case you don't have my vote on that one...oh but of course...outside the 'traditionally high-crime areas'

[Fabrizio]

Yes, AC for some strange reason, is immune from the phenomena. Blank walled streets can add to crime, but in AC for some miraculous reason they do not.

Good one.

---

What waits for AtlanticCity if McCain wins? Excepts from an article in todays NYTimes:

McCain and Team Have Many Ties to Gambling Industry

Senator John McCain was on a roll. In a room reserved for high-stakes gamblers at the Foxwoods Resort Casino in Connecticut, he tossed $100 chips around a hot craps table.

The visit had been arranged by the lobbyist, Scott Reed, who works for the Mashantucket Pequot, a tribe that has contributed heavily to Mr. McCain’s campaigns and built Foxwoods into the world’s second-largest casino.

“One of the founding fathers of Indian gaming” is what Steven Light, a University of North Dakota professor and a leading Indian gambling expert, called Mr. McCain.

When rules being considered by Congress threatened a California tribe’s planned casino in 2005, Mr. McCain helped spare the tribe. Its lobbyist, who had no prior experience in the gambling industry, had a nearly 20-year friendship with Mr. McCain.

As public opposition to tribal casinos has grown in recent years, Mr. McCain has distanced himself from Indian gambling, Congressional and American Indian officials said.

But he has rarely wavered in his loyalty to Las Vegas, where he counts casino executives among his close friends and most prolific fund-raisers. “Beyond just his support for gaming, Nevada supports John McCain because he’s one of us, a Westerner at heart,” said Sig Rogich, a Nevada Republican kingmaker who raised nearly $2 million for Mr. McCain at an event at his home in June.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/us/politics/28gambling-web.html?hp


---

[Intheknow]

Personal political views or religion should not be discussed in bars or forums- they usually lead to fist fights.

As for the blank walls, as I've stated before, AC should have a mural arts program for the children of this city. It helps the kids and the city. It may not help with crime but at least it will look better.

I have noticed a steep decline of this City in the past two years, less civic activities, dirtier etc. I don't know why but things are getting worse.

[Intheknow]

Fabrizio, is that second photo in England new construction? If any industry could afford unique construction it is the Casino industry, well, and the oil industry.

The Casinos are still under achieving in their building architecture.

[66nexus]

Yes, AC for some strange reason, is immune from the phenomena. Blank walled streets can add to crime, but in AC for some miraculous reason they do not.

Good one.

---

Yep, that's why the Gateway complex in Newark is such a 'high-crime' area...(or even various mid/high-rise office parks throughout the country)

Perhaps if they build motels crime will go away.

[pianoman11686]

Nexus: if you haven't gotten Fabrizio to take back something he said after more than 2 or 3 back-and-forths, you won't ever get him to do it.

Fabrizio: I'm sorry to say I strongly disagree with your assertion that blank walls seriously added to crime in Atlantic City. I don't fully understand why, but you have a penchant for blaming real urban problems on poor design. In many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause, of a problem. An urban environment that encourages the type of design you lament is by its nature dysfunctional; the problem only gets worse when government gets involved and tries to guide new development - as in New Jersey's odd choice to restrict gambling to fully-enclosed casino resorts that were not envisioned as meaningful attempts at engaging urban fabric and urban life.

I'm also mystified at your continued belief that Atlantic City was a "healthy city" going all the way up to 1976, when the first large-scale demolitions began and bits of the city became replaced by new monstrosities. While I wasn't alive at the time, I know that the place had already been in long decline, in population and, accordingly, in investment. Population data confirms this:

1900 27,838 113.2%
1910 46,150 65.8%
1920 50,707 9.9%
1930 66,198 30.6%
1940 64,094 −3.2%
1950 61,657 −3.8%
1960 59,544 −3.4%
1970 47,859 −19.6%
1980 40,199 −16%
1990 37,986 −5.5%
2000 40,517 6.7%
2007 39,684 −2.1%\

During the 1960s, 20% of the population fled, and in the 1970s, another 16% - for reasons often similar to what led to declines in many Northern cities that were formerly healthy environments for urban investment. These are startling declines - all before the new casinos were built - that undoubtedly made Atlantic City a more dangerous and less attractive place to live. There must have been literally thousands of abandoned homes.

So while you claim that the city was still a good place, worthy of investment, I'm tempted to believe your memory is seeing things through rose-colored glasses. Perhaps you were too young at the time to see the big picture; I don't know, I can only speculate. But it is clear to me that you are, yet again, blaming poor architectural design for serious urban problems that had already developed before the casinos arrived.

Instead of pouring so much blame on one aspect of Atlantic City's problems, it would be wise to consider what is so fundamentally wrong with a city that turned to casino gambling as its supposed savior. While I agree that casinos haven't helped Atlantic City return to its glory days, they have helped. At the least, they helped stem the population exodus by providing some level of hope for enough people to stick around, and not further deplete the tax base.

[Fabrizio]

Fabrizio: I'm sorry to say I strongly disagree with your assertion that blank walls seriously added to crime in Atlantic City.

Fine. No problem there. I disagree with you too

I don't fully understand why, but you have a penchant for blaming real urban problems on poor design. In many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause, of a problem.

I agree that in many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause... but I also believe that urban problems are made worse by poor urban design. I've listed some reading material on the subject and will list more if you like. This is not some strange unheard of theory invented by me.

In many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause, of a problem. An urban environment that encourages the type of design you lament is by its nature dysfunctional...

On this I agree.

the problem only gets worse when government gets involved and tries to guide new development

If those guidlines are wrongheaded... certainly.


I'm also mystified at your continued belief that Atlantic City was a "healthy city" going all the way up to 1976

And I'm mystified that you think I've said AC was a "healthy city" before gambling in 1976. Never said that.... uh.. strawmanning Pianoman? What I have said, and have said over and over again, is that the city was in decline.

However I agree with many, including the authour Bryant Simon ("Boardwalk of Dreams: Atlantic City and the Fate of Urban America") that the city is today, in many ways, worse off than it was in the mid-1970s.

-----------------

Re: population data: Nearly ALL American cities were losing population between 1950 and 1980. Point out ONE that was not. Why should AC have been different in this? But even so... AC's population today is LESS than it was in 1976. And after an upswing, AC population has been going down for the last 8 years. Quite incredible for a city after 30 years of casino development.

So while you claim that the city was still a good place, worthy of investment

LOL... well it was a good place worthy of investment... that's why we all wanted casino gambling, AC was worthy of investment.

I'm tempted to believe your memory is seeing things through rose-colored glasses. Perhaps you were too young at the time to see the big picture; I don't know, I can only speculate. But it is clear to me that you are, yet again, blaming poor architectural design for serious urban problems that had already developed before the casinos arrived.


Besides the design of the casinos adding to the city's urban problems, let me also point out this from "Boardwalk of Dreams":

--- "Speculators and casino corporations bought houses in those districts, tore them down, and built parking lots. During the early 1980s, bulldozers leveled one third of the city's homes. Local efforts to resist such change proved futile and residents who refused to sell found that their quality of life quickly deteriorated."

---"Crime rose by eighty percent."

--- "Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets." increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

While I agree that casinos haven't helped Atlantic City return to its glory days, they have helped. At the least, they helped stem the population exodus by providing some level of hope for enough people to stick around, and not further deplete the tax base.

As I mentioned in earlier post the real bright spot of casino gambling (of which I was and am still in favour of) is the employment and opportunity it has given to thousands. But even so, total population has DECREASED from 1976 to 2007. But even with an upswing in the 90's, the population has been going down for the last 8 years.

But what is sooooo incredible about your post is this:

A while ago ACplayer posted a pic of Atlantic City's Pacific Avenue dated 1968. You responded:

Wow, it really looked like a city back then! A real place, postcard-worthy. Last time I was there, it looked like a few big hotels in the middle of an abandoned ghost town.

So let's see... 1968... 6 years before the first referendum for casino gambling, and AC at Pacific Avenue looks like "a city", "A real place", "postcard-worthy" and yet 30 years after casino gambling and AC looks like (with the exception of a few big hotels) an abandoned ghost town!

Well, we agree on that one.



I was in Atlantic City two summers ago for a day trip. Hadn't been there since I was a little kid, so I didn't really know what to expect. The city itself was a dump.

But the majority of the boardwalk looked like it had once been nice.

So gee... Pianoman.... what are you saying?... the city looked WORSE today then when you were a kid? LOL...well, as I said, on this we agree.

BTW: when where you a kid... 1970's? 80's?

And I whole heartedly agree with you when you wrote:

I was in Atlantic City this past weekend for a daytrip. I had been planning to go spend most of my time in the Borgata anyway, but upon arriving I lost all desire to hang out in the Boardwalk area. It just doesn't look attractive. It looks outdated and in need of a major facelift. There's really no sense of place.


" If there's any hope for making Atlantic City itself a premier destination, one would expect to integrate newer hotels like the Borgata into (what's left of) the urban fabric. As it stands now, most visitors just drive right off the freeway, into the parking garage, and stay inside the Borgata until they're ready to leave. The city loses out. How can this be fixed?

Side note: I spent the earlier part of the day visiting Cape May, and the place looked great - well-maintained, busy, vibrant.

^ It sould be noted that in 1976 when the faded resort that was AC legalized casino gambling, the faded resort that was CapeMay insitituted it's Cape May Historic District. And I agree with you about how great it looks.... gee maybe that's what can happen when, government gets involved and tries to guide new development "

http://www.capemaytimes.com/history/victorian.htm


---

[giselehaslice]

Pianoman writes: "Fabrizio: I'm sorry to say I strongly disagree with your assertion that blank walls seriously added to crime in Atlantic City.

--- Fine. No problem there. I disagree with you too



You say that I look immature? I would be appalled if I were you.

As for ONE place that did not loose population between 1950 and 1970, Phoenix.

And "CapeMay" is actually two words, just in case you were not sure.

[pianoman11686]

No, I believe however that urban problems are made worse by poor urban design. I've listed some reading material on the subject and will list more if you like.

I've read some of them, including Death and Life. I found little to disagree with.

On this I agree.

Good.

If those guidlines are wrongheaded... certainly.

Great. We're getting somewhere.

And I'm mystified that you think I've said AC was a "healthy city" before gambling in 1976. Never said that.... uh.. strawmanning Pianoman? What I have said is that the city was in decline.

You've said a lot of things. I've followed this thread for several weeks now, and it seems clear to me that you thought it was still a good place to live and visit, right up until the casinos started moving in. So, while I've looked back through some of your posts, I found one that seemed to summarize everything pretty well (post 1238):

I think it's time to clear up a couple of myths about AC that I keep hearing over and over on this thread about the decline of Atlantic City.

I lived in AC in 1971/72 and then back again in 74/75. I was young, but remember the experience quite well.

By 1974 the city was run-down, the Inlet was a place you didn't hang out, but there was really very little street crime. It was not Philadelphia. You could walk all over the place at all hours. I was young, very white... an obvious target, but I never remember being afraid. In the city proper there were no homeless and no open drug dealing and so forth. The city was run-down but still very pleasant.

In '74 we lived on Providence Avenue which was one of the most beautiful blocks in the city. The whole area was beautiful and beautifully maintained. I remember walks to the beach and all of those motels there were full of vacationers and perfectly fine.

Atlantic Avenue still had very nice businesses. The businesses on the 1700 block all had matching canopies. There were still movie theatres and even 2 movie theatres operating on the boardwalk. You have to remember: by this time, NY's TimesSquare was pretty squalid with rows of porn theatres... AC's Boardwalk was squeaky clean in comparison. AC was seedy, but Philadelphia was down right scary.

Convention hall still attracted top-notch conventions including the annual American Medical Association's convention. The grand hotels were still operating: the Dennis, Shelburne, Marlbourough Blenheim, Claridge, Chalfonte-Haddon Hall. Was there any other city in the US with such a group of hotels that were still in operation?

AC was frayed, tired, the inlet was a ghetto... "Pauline's Prarie" was still an undeveloped gaping hole up-town, but it was still a "normal" town with thousands of tourists. At that time, there was a push for casino gambling. Gambling was going to give back some of the lost luster. Most, in their ignorance, really imagined the grand old hotels with casinos in them. Most thought that Atlantic Avenue would become a fabulous shopping street again. You would hear the words "MonteCarlo".

As I remember it, AC's real decline started after the legalization of gambling. It was then that the speculation started. Buildings razed. People bought out of their homes etc. It's in that stretch of the late 70's, while casinos were being built, that AC became a series of empty lots and buildings left to rot.

So there, it sounds like you're saying it wasn't in decline until...the casinos came? Are you saying you disagree with what you wrote above?

However I agree with many, including the authour Bryant Simon ("Boardwalk of Dreams: Atlantic City and the Fate of Urban America") that the city is in many ways worse off than it was in the mid-1970s.

In some ways it is, in some ways it isn't. Population statistics seem to indicate the latter. In my mind, I keep thinking about what would've happened had Atlantic City not turned to gambling. How much further would its population decline? How much further would tourist visits decline? What would it end up leaning on to revive its economy?

-----------------

Re: population data: Nearly ALL American cities were losing population between 1950 and 1970. Point out ONE that was not. Why should AC have been different in this?

Are you kidding, Fabrizio? No, really...is this a joke? How about EVERY SINGLE city in the south? Honestly, tell me: do you know anything about American demographic trends post World War 2? About white flight? About the effect of interstate highway construction and air-conditioning on population shifts in the Sunbelt? 7 of our 10 largest cities are either in California, Texas, or Arizona. In 1950, only Los Angeles was on that list.

I still can't believe you tried to make that argument.

LOL... well it was a good place worthy of investment... that's why we all wanted casino gambling, AC was worthy of investment.

Now you're really not getting it. Why would a place worthy of investment prompt its state to change its laws to allow gambling there? Why does a worthy place like that turn to casinos as its supposed panacea? I'll tell you: a place that knows it's in serious decline and fears that, without doing something drastic, will slowly die out until it vanishes into obscurity.

Besides the design of the casinos adding to the city's urban problems, let me also point out this from "Boardwalk of Dreams":

--- "Speculators and casino corporations bought houses in those districts, tore them down, and built parking lots. During the early 1980s, bulldozers leveled one third of the city's homes. Local efforts to resist such change proved futile and residents who refused to sell found that their quality of life quickly deteriorated."

Why do you think that happened? Look at the population numbers: the thousands that fled Atlantic City in the 60s and 70s must have left thousands of empty homes, and prices must have plummeted. Again, you're citing a cause, as opposed to a symptom.

---"Crime rose by eighty percent."

Of course it did. It rose in a lot of Northern cities - most, in fact. New York's crime rate was off the charts in the 80s compared with the 60s.

--- "Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets." increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

Again, of course that's what happened. Thousands of people left: don't you think that meant businesses would be left behind too with no one to run them? You need people to run butcher shops, no?

As I mentioned in earlier post the real bright spot of casino gambling (of which I was and am still in favour of) is the employment and opportunity it has given to thousands. But even so, population has DECREASED from 1976 to 2007. Can't you read statistics?

Can't you read statistics? Or are you joking again? First casino opened in Haddon Hall, which wasn't a brand new construction, in May 1978. It wasn't until the 1980s that the new ones opened for business. Have a look again, please:

1960 59,544 −3.4%
1970 47,859 −19.6%
1980 40,199 −16%

How did you miss this? The population was cut by a third in the two decades preceding the casinos' arrival. How many homes did it say were bulldozed? A third, right? I wonder why that was.

Also, between 1980 and today, the change is close to 0%. Duh?

But what is sooooo incredible about your post is this:

A while ago ACplayer posted a pic of Atlantic City's Pacific Avenue dated 1968 as well as other pics from the 60's. On seeing those pics you responded:
So gee... Pianoman.... what are you saying?... the city looked WORSE today then when you were a kid? LOL...well, on this we agree. BTW: when where you a kid... 1970's? 80's?

How is it incredible? Clearly, by 1968, the decline hadn't been reflected on a lot of the city yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore. And of course it looks worse today than it did back then. It hadn't gone through its decline yet!

And I whole heartedly agree with you when you wrote:
^ It sould be noted that in 1976 when the faded resort that was AC legalized casino gambling, the faded resort that was CapeMay insitituted it's Cape May Historic District. And I agree with you about how great it looks.... gee maybe that's what happens when, government gets involved and tries to guide new development "

I can't say with certainty that Atlantic City would have remained as popular a tourist destination as it had been earlier in the century if it had implemented historic districting at large. Would the tourist numbers have sustained those huge hotels after the explosion in jetsetting vacation? I don't know, but it's pretty clear to me that, at the least, thousands of homes still would have been vacant unless a way to stop the population decline was found.

Let's not turn this into an anti-landmarking debate. I agree that those grand old hotels were worthy of preservation and were stunning architecturally. I just don't know if enough people would still have visited Atlantic City to sustain the population it once had, and still operate those hotels at a profit. Because that's what casino gambling was about: getting the hotels to realize enough of a profit to stay in business despite the various disadvantages that Atlantic City has as a beach resort.

And that's what I go back to - the decision to bet Atlantic City's future on the concept of bringing in casinos to the hotels. Who made the decision? The politicians. So that's why I'm again puzzled when you say something like this:

"gee maybe that's what happens when, [B]government gets involved and tries to guide new development"

as if to say it was because of a lack of government involvement that Atlantic City declined into the state it is in today. It was precisely the opposite. Government put faith in - and decided - that legal gambling would bring Atlantic City back to its heyday. It most obviously didn't, and I know you agree - but for some reason can't agree with the simple idea that this was the government's own doing.

You're right that it worked in Cape May. And it worked in a handful of other places too, that managed to get preservation laws enacted and historic districts formed. But there's only a handful of these places in all of America, while there are many, many other cities that failed to preserve their architectural history while they went into prolonged decline. Atlantic City is just one of those many cities.

[Fabrizio]

I should have stated about population loss : AC's population loss was similair to other Northern cities.

And while many of those cities have gained population since then.. or have an upswing... AC has been losing population for the last 8 years and today still has less population then the 1970's.

The population losses that you note in the 60's were the Inlet, the area east of Arctic, and Paulines Praire...(the city was basically empty from Pennsylvania Avenue to the Inlet) but Chelsea, Chelsea Heights, Venice Park, BungalowPark, DuckTown, and the center of town were dense with homes and people. Remember that many were summer vaction homes of Philadelphians.

Why don't YOU tell us about these neighborhoods in the 1970's? What were they like.... what were your experiences there?

You must also take into take into consideration the Hurricanes of 1944 and 1962 that had a devastating effect on the city and on people's choice to live there.

http://frank.redpin.com/~urbex/atlanticcity.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/2686833451_4da5924ae3.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2686833319_44f7513f6f.jpg?v=0

"Storm of the Century" 1962: "It is listed as one of the ten worst storms to have hit anywhere in the United States in the 20th century. It did $80 mil. damage in 1962 dollars, in New Jersey alone, destroying 45,000 homes."

http://easyliving.shorenewsnow.com/2008/03/08/the-perfect-storm-of-the-century-march-1962.aspx

http://www.hurricanenow.com/stories/0609161300.php

-----------------------

And if it took a pounding from those hurricanes, note this from Boardwalk of Dreams about what happened AFTER casino gambling came in and the speculation started: "Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets." increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

About my post about AC 1970's (1974): I repeat over and over again about the problems and the decline of the city, the city was suffering as were many at the time... but it was, as you agree, still "a real city"... I remember well the city that the author describes above still there in 1974: "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops... " and those neighborhoods were quite wonderful. It's widespread slide, or perhaps I should have originally said "accelerated" slide started after 1976 when speculation started because of gambling and the city was basically leveled and ceased to be a "real city" and now "looks like a ghost town" as you also noted.

You write: "it seems clear to me that you thought it was still a good place to live and visit, right up until the casinos started moving in."

Sure do. And so did thosands who came there to enjoy the beach, the city, the Piers, and on conventions. Look, you tell me: who was staying at the Shelburne, the Dennis, the Claridge, the Marlbourough, the Blenheim, the HaddonHall? These were huge hotels with big staffs to pay, the maintenance, the upkeep. These hotels were open and operating in 1976 and they were in fine condition.... not getting the amount of vacationers they once did but they were not seedy or run-down. Who was staying at them and why? They were not welfare hotels... The city was indeed still a good place to visit. It was losing business. Miami beckoned. But someone was staying at those hotels.... and someone was paying the millions to keep them operating and looking good. If there had not been business, why in the world would their operators throw money away keeping them open?

As for: "Why would a place worthy of investment prompt its state to change its laws to allow gambling there? "

Because as I stated, "gambling was going to give back some of the lost luster"... and the city was worthy of investment: It still had crowds, a huge convention hall and important conventions, huge hotels, the piers were stll operating, it was in decline, frayed, but in relatively good shape... it had all of the set pieces in place for a comeback (see ACPlayers photos from the era) ... it was not Asbury Park. The idea of gambling fit like a glove. The city was worthy of investment, and gambling would provide plenty of it.

Note too that many in NY and Philadelphia would like to see gambling come to their cities as well.

Also you keep saying: "the decision to bet Atlantic City's future on the concept of bringing in casinos to the hotels. Who made the decision? The politicians."

Actually I believe it was local businessmen who got the idea going. And it was the populace who decided with a referendum.

As for: "Clearly, by 1968, the decline hadn't been reflected on a lot of the city yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore. And of course it looks worse today than it did back then. It hadn't gone through its decline yet!"

The decline by 1968 certainly could be seen in the inlet, Pauline's Prarie, etc... but not so much in the neighborhoods I mentioned. Actually, the first glimmers of the city's decline started in the late 1940's. But the wide-spread decline, started after gambling came in and speculation started. And that is what sparked this accelerated decline and the city part has never really recovered. Gambling which in 1976 was seen to be the shot in the arm, has left us 30 years later with what you descibe as a place that (outside of a few huge casinos) "looks like a ghost town" and as you've noted : with an even smaller population than before.


Thanks for pointing that out.

----

So in the end points are those that I've always said: AC was certainly in decline by the 60's and 70's but pre-gaming AC was still a nice place to visit and vacation. Gambling was a great idea and we all believed it would bring the city back to it's hey-day. But gambling was poorly planned, poorly implemented. The speculation from it's inception in 1976 greatly accelerated the city's decline... in fact the brick-and-mortar city has never really recovered and in many ways it is worse off than it was in 1976. Gambling has provided jobs and oppurtunity. But I believe IMHO that the city's physical decline would not have been as great if gambling had not come in. I also feel that Historic District Landmarking (Chelsea, Ducktown) and asthetic codes should still be introduced.. and without them the city's physical appearance, out side of the casinos, will decline further. The city must require the Casinos to be active members of the urban fabric. Leaving everything up to the free market and crossed fingers will not work. Job number 1:

Get rid of those friggin' blank walls for starters because as so many experts have figured out: they seriously ADD to a city's crime rate.

---

[66nexus]

How is it incredible? Clearly, by 1968, the decline hadn't been reflected on a lot of the city yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore. And of course it looks worse today than it did back then. It hadn't gone through its decline yet!



These are key. I believe that with or without casinos Atlantic City, at any rate, would have fallen further than it's late 60's status before it would pick up again.

[Fabrizio]

For me that phrase of Pianoman's is jibberish. First of all, the decline had been reflected to one degree or another on large swaths of the city.... exactly as decline was seen in most metro areas of the NorthEast by the late 60's: Philly, NYC... and so many towns and cities in-between. But AC, like those other towns, was (back then) a city of neighborhoods. As I mentioned Chelsea, Clesea Heights, DuckTown, Venice Park, the center of town east of Atlantic was still rather nice (Chelsea still quite spectacular). He says something about: "it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore." Actually abandoned buildings were in the Inlet and west of Arctic...but in the neighborhoods I mention above.... there were no abandoned buildings...at least that was not the tone of those areas... things in those neighborhoods in AC were actually attractive. I lived there. I walked those streets. I have friends who lived there. We were all over town. It was a shock back then, to go to Philly to see the squallor in Center City... I remember being appaled visiting friends in NYC and finally moving there in 76.

The wholesale abandonment of those nice neighborhoods and the center of town, started after the speculation that began in 1976.


--

[66nexus]

I'm sure it was no doubt nice, but that was perhaps before white flight. And once middle-class residents left property values plummet and lower-income persons move in.

[Fabrizio]

AC had white flight after 1964 when racial laws changed. Paulines Prarie was actually designed as a barrier to keep out blacks. When the laws changed in 64 THAT'S when whites began to move out of the neighborhods like the inlet that bordered them. Chesea was cushioned. The Italians kept their own neighborhod to themselves but the inlet and of course PP were changed forever and whites left. The storm of '62 also devestated the Nothern end of AC and people left because of that too. It was the second time in nearly 20 years that the boardwalk had to be replaced and homes torn down (remember they were mostly wooden.) The 60's saw the triple whammy of the 64 racial laws, the 62 hurricane, and cheap air fare. But AC still attracted great crowds: the grand old hotels were still there, the Steel Pier had the greatest pop acts playing there all through the 60's, The Beatles played Convention Hall on their first trip to the US ( just to show you how important AC still was on a national level), The 64 Democratic Convention, The Shriners, The American Medical Association still had their conventions. "Summertime on the Pier" was telecast live all over Philly and the Delaware Valley every Sunday afternoon. And believe it or not.... the Miss America Pagent was still, for a few years there, the higest rated show on Television... and sponsored by Oldsmobile.

AC was not Newark.

But AC a decade later had ANOTHER cause for white flight and it had nothing to do with race and IMHO in the end it was much more devestating: people were offered a fortune for their homes and guess what? They took it. Businesses saw that bussed-in Casino patrons were holed up inside of self contained casinos and NOT patronizing the city... so guess what? Those businesses folded. As more businesses folded, empty lots grew, streets grew desolate, buildings were abandoned... and guess what? More residents fled. As those homeowners who did not get casinos offers held out (and continue to do so today) guess what? They rent their homes to whomever (and how many) will live there. And the spiral accelerates and continues.

---

[lofter1]

Don't underestimate the effect of Airline Deregulation Act (1978) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act) which made it possible for folks to travel to far off places for cheap. This made a place like Atlantic City -- which previously had been one of the viable weekend getaways via bus / auto / train for those living in the NE -- a second, third or tenth choice for Eastern vacationers on the go.

By contrast those cheap airfares didn't seem to attract masses of far-off folks to the Jersey Shore.

[Fabrizio]

All true. And that's one reason why Casino gambling in 1978 (and for the next 20 years) was focused on bussed-in day trippers. It's sights aimed low.

In the meantime Ocean City, Wildwood and CapeMay dug in their heels and today are doing well with those Eastern vacationers ...and look fantastic, without casino gambling or worries about being the new whatever.

[acplayer]

I think, for the most part, what Fabrizio says is very accurate. As you can see, people were still coming, admittedly is less numbers, but the city was still intact.


Early 1970's
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acbwpeoplec1970.jpg

[giselehaslice]

^The Boardwalk still has that many people if not more now. And don't try to say it does not Fabrizio, you have not been there in 938498384984 years. Intheknow, don't try it either.

[195Broadway]

I've read some of them, including Death

And that's what I go back to - the decision to bet Atlantic City's future on the concept of bringing in casinos to the hotels. Who made the decision? The politicians. So that's why I'm again puzzled when you say something like this:



I seem to remember a public statewide reforendom on that. I might be wrong. What the he!!, I was only 14 at the time.

Checked it out on the web. I was 12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_city#Demise_and_rebirth

[Intheknow]

At least the Boardwalk Pavilon above has a roof on it,unlike todays decrepit pavilons.

[195Broadway]

Fix A/C?
Mr. Ed can help. http://www.petticoated.com/pdqwinter04/otherdocs/divinghorse1W04.JPG

How about a bigger, better version of Lucy? Build her and they will come. It would be unforgettable.
http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/images/lucy.jpg

[Intheknow]

I believe the main problem with AC today is that the animals are running the zoo, and the Casinos want it that way.

[66nexus]

I found this quite interesting: (back in 2003)


Best boardwalksYou've plowed through four paperbacks, gotten that all-over sunburn and have been worn out by the surf. It's time to stretch your legs on the boardwalk. Boardwalks have something for everybody, whether it's arcade games, carnival rides, mouth-watering junk food or simply people-watching. USATODAY.com's John Nunnally talked to Dr. Stephen Leatherman, director of the Laboratory for Coastal Research at Florida International University and one of the nation's top beach experts (he's also known as "Dr. Beach"), about his list of the nation's top five boardwalks.
http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif http://images.usatoday.com/travel/_photos/2003/10/08-boardwalk.jpg http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif There's no shortage of amusement on the Atlantic City boardwalk. http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif By Chris Polk, AP

1. Atlantic City
"The granddaddy of all boardwalks, with amusement piers and the glitz of casinos right on the beach." For more information: www.atlanticcitynj.com (http://www.atlanticcitynj.com/).
2. Ocean City, N.J.
"The great view of the surf from this elevated wooden boardwalk brings you back to yesteryear." For more information: Ocean City visitor's guide (http://www.oceancityvacation.com/boardwalk.htm).
3. Rehoboth Beach, Del.
"A small beach town that features a mile-long boardwalk and such favorites as Dolly's saltwater taffy and an amusement park." For more information: www.rehobothbeach.com (http://www.rehobothbeach.com/).
4. Ocean City, Md.
"This honky-tonk three-mile promenade is easily traversed by the open train ferries as you inhale the smell of vinegar-soaked fries and pass the throngs of people." For more information: www.ocean-city.com (http://www.ocean-city.com/).
5. Virginia Beach
"The most beautiful boardwalk in the country, featuring artwork and roving entertainers." For more information: www.vbfun.com (http://www.vbfun.com/).

(not sure if I totally agree but it's interesting nonetheless)



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.usatoday.com/travel/_photos/2003/10/08-boardwalk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/beach2003/2003-10-08-best-boardwalks_x.htm&h=180&w=180&sz=10&hl=en&start=20&sig2=YUcANg2U8IhXrVV9U1T-VA&um=1&usg=__Mxh8ucoDSbuLm4-ci9B1dsUmQNk=&tbnid=xxTeATUXfudT5M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=101&ei=FYvhSOSeKaeIpATAz5XgDQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Datlantic%2Bcity%2Bboardwalk%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Fabrizio]

More competition for AC? From Luxist:

Will Gambling Come To Miami Beach?

The Fontainebleau Miami Beach hotel is currently finishing up a $500 million renovation but could there be plans for a casino in the venerable Florida hotel? The Miami Herald reports on a recent push to have the Florida constitution amended to allow gambling at the proposed Miami Worldcenter and any hotel in Miami Beach with more than 800 rooms, a restriction that includes only the Fontainebleau. It's a natural leap considering that a Fontainebleau casino in Las Vegas is already under construction.

The new Fontainebleau in Miami Beach is set to open next month and follows the inclusive hotel paradigm of Las Vegas Strip hotels with 11 restaurants and bars, ample meeting space, 1,500 guest rooms, and a 40,000-square-foot spa. The developers have said that their plains for the Miami Beach hotel did not include casinos. The push for gambling in Miami comes from Miami developer who wants to put a casino in a commercial complex planned for the downtown area. But many feel that the Fontainebleau is the natural place for a casino in Miami Beach, it has the size and prestige to embrace gambling in a way that would add to the resort. And it could also bring a much needed infusion of cash to the South Florida resort economy.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/bleau0245.jpg

---


"The Miami Herald reports on a recent push to have the Florida constitution amended to allow gambling..."



Now you're really not getting it. Why would a place worthy of investment prompt its state to change its laws to allow gambling there? Why does a worthy place like that turn to casinos as its supposed panacea? I'll tell you: a place that knows it's in serious decline and fears that, without doing something drastic, will slowly die out until it vanishes into obscurity.

-------------

BTW: Note the architecture of that hotel. Besides being beautiful, doesn't it make more sense to have hotels with balconies (or at least open terraces) and windows that open, instead of the sealed glass office building type stuff they've built in AC?

---

[Intheknow]

Huge mistake! As we have seen gambling does nothing good for a city except provide taxes. States are taking the easy way out to generate tax dollars at the cost to its citizens. What ever happened to an honest days work, manufacturing, technology.

I'm going to puke and then put in an honest days work.

Why don't states just start selling drugs.

[American Gaming Guru]

I do not think gambling in Miami will come anytime soon, but then again I never thought it would ever be so wide-spread throughout the country. It was already tried in the early 90's when South Beach was a wreck (Trump was a big proponent on it. I believe both he and Wynn had options on hotels/land). Why start now when the city is just getting back to its roots again?

If it passed (possibly under a gaming friendly governor Crist) I think gaming would fit in well at the Fontainbleau. It is a timeless well-thought out resort that under the recent renovations looks to capture a piece of its glory days. It is going to be a wonderful property (I was there checking out the construction just two weeks ago).

Fabrizio, you are correct the balconies look great (that is the more modern phase II or III condo/hotel structure pictured above). The real beauty is in the original structure, which also includes balconies on the top (note the original design was lambasted until years later).

http://www.hotelliquidator.com/mediareviews/Fontainebleau.jpg

But they would never work in modern-day AC casino hotel projects. The Taj and Showboat have a good amount of them, but they are locked. It is for fear of suicide by gamblers. I am not sure if this is a property imposed limitation or by the State.

[Intheknow]

AGG what can you tell us about your stay at Chelsea?

[American Gaming Guru]

It was great.

In answer to your questions, no, I did not see the rolling chairs but yes, there were people at the bar. Not many though (it was a Tuesday night...I could count them on my finger).

The hotel seemed amply crowded. I stayed with a number of people for a convention that we were in town for. Everyone seemed to enjoy the place.

Teplizkys was good, but not great (sorry folks, I forgot to check out the bathrooms). They need to vastly expand their menu and the service was very slow.

The spa looks ready to open (and impressive) and construction was proceeding all over the place. Furniture was also being delivered for the "Lite" tower rooms.

The real draw is Chelsea Prime. I love the feeling of the place and the food was simply amazing. I would argue the best steak house in the city. The place was very crowded too (I went here on Wednesday before I left the city, I do not recall an open table). If you get a chance to dine there, take some time to look around the room at the photos of AC past. They are quite amusing.

Honestly though, I think the entire hotel is going to have a tough off-season with the economy slowing and all, but I sincerely hope they succeed. The product that they offer is unique and impressive and only adds back to the city.

[pianoman11686]

Why don't YOU tell us about these neighborhoods in the 1970's? What were they like.... what were your experiences there?

Are you essentially calling me out on being too young to comment on this? I just graduated college this year, you know I wasn't around in the 70s.

Simply put, I'm not going to reply to your posts if you think I had to have lived in Atlantic City, in the 70s, to make a credible argument.

[Fabrizio]

But you've already made a credible argument speaking from your own experience: that AC looks worse today then even when you were a kid, and that after 30 years of gambling AC now looks like a "ghost town". Back then, before gambling, as you say, it looked like: "A real place, postcard-worthy". But hey, as you mention, AC continues to lose population. I whole heartedly agree with you that one would expect that newer hotels "be integrated into (what's left of) the urban fabric". You ask: "How can this be fixed?" Personally, I think one step toward creating that "sense of place" that you find lacking, would be to eliminate those blank walls you see all over the place. Of couse to achieve that, it would mean government involvement to guide new development.... as is done in Cape May, as city that looks as you point out "busy, vibrant".

[Intheknow]

They keep doing the same thing over and over again....AC Gateway has postponed buying any buildings they "purchased" until Nov. 2009, mean while the area gets trashier and trashier. Gardners basin development- the City wants the land back from developer due to absolutly nothing being built. This City is a waste.

I'll guarantee Chelsea Hotel either goes under (likely) or is sold or taken over from Bashaw, soon. He can't even afford the rolling chairs anymore.

How many Boardwalks are in the U.S.? If you owned one wouldn't you keep it up? Fn' monkeys running this city into the ground.

More blank walls coming to AC real soon.

[pianoman11686]

But you've already made a credible argument speaking from your own experience: that AC looks worse today then even when you were a kid, and that after 30 years of gambling AC now looks like a "ghost town". Back then, before gambling, as you say, it looked like: "A real place, postcard-worthy". But hey, as you mention, AC continues to lose population. I whole heartedly agree with you that one would expect that newer hotels "be integrated into (what's left of) the urban fabric". You ask: "How can this be fixed?" Personally, I think one step toward creating that "sense of place" that you find lacking, would be to eliminate those blank walls you see all over the place. Of couse to achieve that, it would mean government involvement to guide new development.... as is done in Cape May, as city that looks as you point out "busy, vibrant".

I guess I have to admit that I have no recollections whatsoever about Atlantic City as a kid. Maybe my parents took me there as a toddler, but I have no memories. I've only visited twice, both times after the Borgata opened. I also have to admit that my earlier posts were observations only, and not arguments. I had little knowledge about Atlantic City's history up until a few weeks ago when I started reading about the legalization of gambling and its aftermath.

I've tried to pry this from you on a couple of occasions, to no avail, so I'll try again. What makes you think that casinos could have really saved Atlantic City? Before they arrived, the city had already lost 1/3 of its population. Keep in mind it's a small city - 11 square miles - so the wholesale abandonment of 1/3 of its housing stock would have led to disaster one way or another, unless the government literally bought up all the empty houses, policed, and maintained them.

I still don't see how you can make a definitive argument about blank walls contributing to crime. Is most of the crime in AC taking place right outside the resorts? That seems to be the only logical explanation for the blank wall argument. Frankly, I don't find it surprising when the city has demographics like this:

The median income for a household in the city was $26,969, and the median income for a family was $31,997. Males had a median income of $25,471 versus $23,863 for females. The per capita income for the city was $15,402. About 19.1% of families and 23.6% of the population were below the poverty line, including 29.1% of those under age 18 and 18.9% of those age 65 or over.

Atlantic City is a poor, largely deserted resort town that thought it could hold on to its former glory by attracting casinos. It was a bad plan to begin with, blank walls or not; it got worse with the state mandating that all gambling take place within self-enclosed resorts. You have to admit there's something wrong with the idea that a small city of 40,000 can have a healthy economy when it bets all its chips on a single source of jobs - casinos. It's clear to me that Atlantic City is a failure not because of poor architectural planning, but because of poor economic planning. The reason why some Northern cities that were in decline were able to rebound was because they diversified their economies and attracted new industries, new jobs. How did Atlantic City respond to the challenge? By exclaiming, "Let's spin the roulette wheel!"

[giselehaslice]

Pianoman, you're right. I think many people on here agree with you on your assesment, including me. I have learned though, it really is a lost cause trying to get Fabrizio to agree with anyone. He is an extremely close minded person, its his way or the highway. He will ignore your comments if you are right about something, will not have anything smart enough to say back, will just ignore it and act like it never happened.

[acplayer]

I agree with some of what you say Pianoman, but not with this statement, "You have to admit there's something wrong with the idea that a small city of 40,000 can have a healthy economy when it bets all its chips on a single source of jobs - casinos." The whole Jersey Shore is mostly based on one source of jobs-tourism. The economies of A.C., Ocean City, Wildwood, etc... have always relied on tourism for jobs. As far as the crime/blank wall argument it's pretty much common sense that where you have more eyes and ears and an active street level scene with shops, restaurants, cafes, people, etc... there is safety in numbers and less crime. Versus long, desolate poorly lit empty spaces. Where would you feel more safe, on the Boardwalk at the Pier or one of the desolate blocks off the Boardwalk? Yes ignorance, poor education, welfare conditioning, etc... help breed crime but so does poor urban planning.

[Fabrizio]

Actually, Pianoman regurgitates much of what I've always said here.

Re: those walls: Of course it is only common sense as ACPlayer states: "where you have more eyes and ears and an active street level scene with shops, restaurants, cafes, people, etc... there is safety in numbers and less crime. Versus long, desolate poorly lit empty spaces. Where would you feel more safe, on the Boardwalk at the Pier or one of the desolate blocks off the Boardwalk?"

But all of this has been studied for years by urban design experts.

Pianoman asks:

"What makes you think that casinos could have really saved Atlantic City?"

--- Never said that. Although I think gambling was a good idea ...as you agree.

"Before they arrived, the city had already lost 1/3 of its population. Keep in mind it's a small city - 11 square miles - so the wholesale abandonment of 1/3 of its housing stock would have led to disaster one way or another, unless the government literally bought up all the empty houses, policed, and maintained them."

First of all: that's what the government of AC did.

It bought up every home and every business from Virginia Avenue to Massachusettes Avenue. A HUGE swath of uptown AC. The destruction of the storm in 62 and flight from the city... the government basically condemed this area of town in 1966 and tore everything down, literally hundreds of homes, in preparation for an urban renewal project that was to create an entirely new section of the city. The area sat empty for years in anticipation for a project that never materialized (we are in New Jersey after all). And so Pauline's Prarie was born. Believe it or not, Pauline Hill felt that by tearing this section of the city down, it would BLOCK the development of blight... there is debate about this... but curiously enough, I think in a way she was right.

Imagine if the Bronx or North Philadelphia were insted of allowed to decay, were condemed, torn down and cleared. By the late 60's only a small (though very attractive) group of modern homes were built here. This area of the city still exists today, still largely empty except for the Showboat casino (AmericanGaming Guru will probably have more info).

But remember this area was up town and out of the way. The other areas of town were still attractive and vibrant as mentioned by one of the authors I quoted. Of course when gambling and speculation started those areas did not stand a chance.

Also: before making a statement like: " the city had already lost 1/3 of its population. Keep in mind it's a small city - 11 square miles - so the wholesale abandonment of 1/3 of its housing stock " How do you get the figure of 1/3 of the housing stock? One home for each resident?

And: AC is a summer resort... many homes (especially back then) are vacation homes. I don't know how these things are defined, but perhaps the actual population might not be as easy to define as other cities.

Pianoman's last paragraph basically paraphrases things I've always stated here.

Although I believe poor architectural planning greatly adds to AC's depressed state, Pianoman writes: "It's clear to me that Atlantic City is a failure not because of poor architectural planning, but because of poor economic planning."

Well, ok... yet in another post he says:

"If there's any hope for making Atlantic City itself a premier destination, one would expect to integrate newer hotels like the Borgata into (what's left of) the urban fabric. As it stands now, most visitors just drive right off the freeway, into the parking garage, and stay inside the Borgata until they're ready to leave. The city loses out. How can this be fixed?

^ No that was not written by me... that's Pianoman speaking....anyway here it sounds like he's saying that, yes, poor architectural planning also DOES add to AC's failure as a city...but... uh... you guys figure it out.

---

[giselehaslice]

"Imagine if the Bronx or North Philadelphia were insted of allowed to decay, were condemed, torn down and cleared."

I'm confused if you are for this or against this.

I think it would be a positive thing. I don't understand the logic in letting it sit there and rot. Decaying buildings are most definitely more detrimental to the urban environment than vacant parcels of land.

[JCMAN320]

Easy with the New Jersey quip fabrizio.

[Fabrizio]

JCMan... my comment is in relation to a government boondoggle. As I state: we are in New Jersey.

On just a local level, five of the last nine chief executives in AC have been busted on corruption charges. Let me repeat that for you: five of the last nine chief executives have been busted on corruption charges.

Please point out another American city with such a record. Thanks.

And BTW: Please tell us what you know about the rich history of government corruption in AC. AC is legendary for it. Do you want speaking about it censored? Why? It is part of AC culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Johnson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_S._Farley

----

[JCMAN320]

Granted you but you paint the whole state with that brush, thats what I won't freggin, for want of a better word, tolerate! Like there's no corruption in other states, look in your own backyard of New York, there has been plenty of corruption in Albany.

[Fabrizio]

Some reading for you:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0312368941/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

[JCMAN320]

Hahahahah smart ass I know about that book. Yes I have read it too, I know waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy more than you think I do. My point is that is an old stereotype. My point is that yes while we have had a HISTORY of corruption, I challenge you to find other states that don't have corruption. Ok you act like were the odd ball. We are no different than any other states.

[RYinNJ]

There is no denying that Jersey has been a hot bed of corruption but having lived in Louisiana, I can honestly state that they make Jersey look like a model of good government......

[RYinNJ]

I found this study released by the The Justice Dept that ranks the states with levels of corruption and the top ten are as follows:
1. Mississippi (7.48)
2. North Dakota (7.09)
3. Louisiana (7.05)
4. Alaska (6.06)
5. Illinois (5.26)
6. Montana (4.95)
7. South Dakota (4.86)
8. Kentucky (4.59)
9. Florida (4.58)
10. New York (4.56)
Again, New Jersey ranked 16th....you can link to the article here:
www.corporatecrimereporter.com/corruptreport.pdf (http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/corruptreport.pdf)


NOTE: The report does has several flaws that are mentioned in the article. One big flaw was that the report only calculates federal convictions and not convictions by the state.....

[Intheknow]

All this talk of corruption makes me ill. AC may rank 16th but they must be #1 in blatant corruption. Also, the cost to corrupt is very small in AC, $5,000 for former City Council president now doing five years.

[Fabrizio]

Public Corruption in the United States:

According to this group, out of 50 States, NJ ranks 9th for public corruption... making it the second most corrupt state in the NE second only to it's neighbor Pennsylvania:

http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/corrupt100807.htm

The article also states: "a Monmouth University/Gannett New Jersey poll released last week which found that New Jersey residents are increasingly suspicious of their politicians. The poll found 60 percent of residents say there is “a lot” of corruption in the state, up from 34 percent four years ago. The poll also found that New Jerseyans think 60 percent of legislators are willing to sell out to lobbyists, up from 52 percent four years ago."

------------

As far as AC goes, it's corruption is truly legendary.

[RYinNJ]

I agree with you regarding AC...I am surprised Pa beat us for the title of number 1 in the NE....As for NJ residents becoming more suspicious, I didn't think that was possible...New Jersey always gives their politicians the lowest approval ratings (both parties) and then proceeds to reelect them anyway. Sen. Lautenburg's approval usually hovers in the high 30's and low 40's, yet he will probably win reelection in a blowout.

[AC11]

The corruption today in AC is rampant, but the two names mentioned in a post above, Nucky Johnson and Hap Farley made AC what it was. It could be argued that Nucky put AC on the map. He was connected to everything in the city during the best boom times. Was he corrupt. Yes. Did it benefit AC. Absolutely.

Read Chance of a Lifetime by Grace D"Amato.

Don't lump Nucky and Hap with the Callaways and Langfords of today. They are disgusting compared to the leaders of the past.

[Intheknow]

In other news....AC is now considering delaying the Oct.15th total smoking ban, due to the economy, city council will vote next Wed. My opinion, ban smoking and get it over with and concentrate on other ways to market AC and the casinos.

There is fear (real or not) that some casinos may go under in the next couple of years. - ACpress

[Fabrizio]

Todays Press shows the tarted up Dennis Hotel. This is sickening. Is there any other city in the world that could be so brain dead? Imagine if in NYC they decided to paint the Plaza lime green:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/380277E.jpg

[Intheknow]

At least they didn't paint the boardwalk fronting it, yet.

[JCMAN320]

Fabrizio there are numbers all over the board, that people show, but we are clearly not the worst. Your blatant dislike and hate for NJ is sickening.

[Fabrizio]

I never said NJ was the worst.

I quoted what is considered the most reputable organization that tracks these things. They say that in the NE, NJ is the 2nd most corrupt state.

I'm not allowed to quote them? What's your problem?

---

Intheknow: paint... or perhaps linoleum.

[66nexus]

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/TheChelsea010.jpg?t=1216653834

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/TheChelsea011.jpg?t=1216653847


Fabrizio isn't that pick you posted old? On AGG's pic here it shows those hideous blue colors being primed white.

I really wish they would do something about that blue.

[Intheknow]

JCman, it's not the state it's the people that run the state, well, that and North Jersey. Any new refinery's up that way?

Notice the crowds in above pics, that's how it has been the majority of the time the last 6 months, except Fri and Sat. and they haven't been much better.

[giselehaslice]

InTheKnow, your taking immature jabs for no reason. North Jersey has its share of rough spots, just like South Jersey, but you also have to consider that some of the wealthiest towns in the country are in North Jersey. If people have money, they can live anywhere, and they choose North Jersey.

The Dennis..Here we go finding the negatives in things again...Would you rather still have the Garden Buffet and the rest of that crap still be there in front of the hotel? I agree the colour is'nt great BUT, it looks 1000 times better than that nasty strip that was there before.

[American Gaming Guru]

I am afraid that they were priming it for more of those nasty colors. But agreed. This is SOOOOO much better than that dump of a retail plaza that the Schiffs had parked there.

Ballys did a great job of opening up the hotel and plaza then put out some cheep banners advertising a restaurant. It totally takes away from the grandeur of the hotel.

Here is some more Schiff crap:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08013-1.jpg?t=1223066024

Empty lot oposite the "Schiff Pier". Locals refer to it as "The Dead Zone"

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08015-1.jpg?t=1223066053

Did anyone see this beauty! I hope to god this is a temporary joke.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08016-1.jpg?t=1223066135

[JCMAN320]

Intheknow shove it. Refineries so what its money, since when has industry been a bad thing, in fact I wish the factory jobs that have been outsourced come back. I'm proud that New Jersey has an industrial back bone. Why because it's not shiney and glass and white collard God foresaken yuppies don't work there? We have refineries, your point is what??? Are you saying that all of North Jersey is industrial, you are sadly ignorant and wrong. North Jersey is very beautiful in many places. All of the industry was built up along the clusters of highways (i.e Turnpike, 78, 22, 1&9,) and near Port Elizabeth and Newark Liberty, where industry should be.

[66nexus]

JCman, it's not the state it's the people that run the state, well, that and North Jersey. Any new refinery's up that way?

Notice the crowds in above pics, that's how it has been the majority of the time the last 6 months, except Fri and Sat. and they haven't been much better.

Okay then perhaps we should close the refineries/oil storage which would reduce US NorthEastern region oil capacity. That would only help gas prices and people would flock to AC in droves...

[Fabrizio]

AC at it's "lowest" ebb in the 70's looked nothing like those photos. Nothing.

In the second photo isn't that what remains of St James Ave? Believe it or not, St James was a street I would go out of my way to walk down... it was, like many streets in AC, a piece of Europe. It was narrow, with a curve towards the end. There were small hotels, apartment buildings, awnings, porches and flower boxes.

[giselehaslice]

Why don't you just keep complaining. I'm sorry to tell you this, but the past is dead.
I'm sure it was lovely, and I'm sorry to hear that St. Jame's avenue probably does not look like that anymore. BUT, the thing here that some seem to forget is that the city is still developing, and is no where near build-out yet. When the whole thing is crammed with buildings that are sub-par, than you can start complaining.

[Intheknow]

Take it easy fella's...I love Newark airport!

Gesel, where is AC developing?

[Fabrizio]

Uh... let's see, 30 years to arrive at this... so yeah, maybe another 60 years to have "the whole thing is crammed with buildings" again.

I'm looking forward to it. I wonder if we'll have more buildings like that mahvelous steel warehouse seen in the photo above.

God help us.


---

[Intheknow]

Notice the bum leaning against trash can in above pic. Fits right in.

Also, look up how Philadelphia is fighting the Sugarloaf Casino they are proposing at Penns Landing, the reason, it doesn't fit into their plans for a pedestrian friendly building. Now that's putting the people before tax dollars. Exactly the opposite of AC.

[giselehaslice]

Oh those steel wharehouses really deserve a cry to god for help....wow.

[JCMAN320]

I'm sure that metal shed is temporary. Will you guys stops being a bunch of cry babies. Grow a pair and look towards the future. I'll fix all you all!!!!!!How about that??

One, Those older casinos that we're built as fortresses, when they we're built that was the style of the time. That very sterile, Star Wars, Death Star look. No sense in complaining because it was built in the style for that time of the 70s and 80s, can't go back in the Delorean with Doc Brown and insight them on the urban design of the 2000s.

Two, I do wish those older buildings we're landmarked, but if it wasnt back then it wasn't going to stand in the way of progress. Your beloved New York learned the hardway with Penn Station and others that have fallen, and historic buildings might sitll fall (Penn Hotel, Drake, anyone). So no sense on beating a long dead horse that died over 30 years ago.

Three, this whole stuck up, nose in the air, snobbish, attitude how AC will never be good enough has to stop alright. "Oh look a homeless guy that's so AC", or "An empty lot typical AC". Stop your bitching and why not try and be positive on some of things. Developing? I believe there is development going on, but what Intheknow, it's not up to your standards. isn't Revel being built or Pinnacle, excuse me which ever one AGG showed us, being built. Why not try and enjoy the progress AC is making, you might actually like it!!!!!

Four, AC is attracting celebrities, the list of top performers go on and on and on. Paris Hilton was in AC a few nights ago partying, check the todays Daily News if you don't believe me. Hell even Maxim magazine is promoting AC. Alos from what I have heard, more people are enjoying AC over Veags, the quality of service from what I understand has been better. Also the facades are being fixed up on the boardwalk, but this all takes time. Do you expect 30 years of decline to be fixed up over night?????

Five, I do agree that the casinos should be more intergratted more into the city, but the casinos on the boardwalk we're designed to open onto AC's main attraction, it's boardwalk, and the entrances for cars and such we're left for the street. Simple as that. I do agree that these casinos and attractions should go more east and west, instead of north and south along the boardwalk, and that is starting to happen, but again it's going to take time.

[Fabrizio]

"Those older casinos that we're built as fortresses, when they we're built that was the style of the time."

And so what new casinos have been built that are not built as fortresses too?

--

"Your beloved New York learned the hardway with Penn Station and others that have fallen, and historic buildings might sitll fall (Penn Hotel, Drake, anyone). So no sense on beating a long dead horse that died over 30 years ago."

In NYC... or nearby Philly for that matter, you win some and you lose some, but everytime a beautiful building is slated for demolition, concerned citizens begin a protest. Things do not go down with out a fight. It is a sign of community pride. You also have groups concerned about the look of their cities, etc.

Tell me about grass roots concern in AC. There is none. So you should be thankful that there is at least a bit of protest on this forum, for gosh sakes. You have no clue to the fact that my comments = love for the place. It is your type of dumbed-down cheerleading that is eventually harmful. If they painted the Plaza Hotel lime green, forum members here would start a letter writting campaign.... but you want us to keep our mouths shut. Do you work for Bally's or what?

"Three, this whole stuck up, nose in the air, snobbish, attitude how AC will never be good enough has to stop alright. "Oh look a homeless guy that's so AC", or "An empty lot typical AC".

Again: if any of the forum members here at NYWired suddenly saw the homeless and begging turning up, in an invasive way, on 5th etc.... believe me you would hear comments on the NY threads. Why is it too much for your ears about AC?

BTW: Positive development has always been praised here about AC.... and crap has been critized. That's the way it works.

------

Re: P Hilton: I also read about Paris Hilton being shipped into the Borgata. Is that really visiting Atlantic City? Please let me know when you see celebs and the glamourous strolling Pacif, Atlantic or the B'walk. Or buying homes there. Of course Maxim's promotes AC... that's why the Hotels have PR departments and free comps.

----

"I'm sure that metal shed is temporary."

Like how many months or how many years temporary?

Of course we all want AC to do well. But in 30 years, look how many cities have reinvented and renewed themselves. They were able to ride the boom economy and take advantage of it.

Now things are cooling off rapidly and AC looks like a hell-hole: not the best time to put faith in big postive changes occuring anytime soon... but hey, we've already waited 30...


--

[zipburn]

Unless my memory is failing me , their was a privately built stretch of stores that was brand new and nice looking but the homeless under the boardwalk started a fire that destroyed the building late last year. I believe the owners are waiting to secure monies from the $100 million boardwalk development fund from the CRDA to restart building. My guess is they recieved the money but with summer around they corner they decided to build that temp structure just for the summer months. I'd be willing to bet the current credit issue didn't help the situation either

[Fabrizio]

And WHAT is going on with the Cemtral Pier... that is a Shiff property isn't it? It looks like the Bronx 1975. Has anyone offered to buy it? I don't care for eminant domain but really.... the owners should be thrown in jail.

[acplayer]

Here are a couple of pictures of the Belmont Hotel & Woolworths, where the metal shed is currently that AGG posted.

1925
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/pageantsept1925.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acwoolworths.jpg

[Intheknow]

Today AC's largest parade is the Puerto Rican Day Parade, where they ride their souped up Hondas down the boardwalk blaring music from a radio. About twelve people attend.

When was the last time that many people were crammed on the boardwalk?

Notice the beach width, today we have sand berms, God forbid anyone sees the ocean from the boardwalk.

Jerseyboy, Pinnacle is not developing and Revel will soon be a half done carcass of a Casino. I think it's time to send in the clowns when it comes to AC, they can't hurt.

By the way, notice all the American flags in above pic. This past Memorial Day the City did not hang any flags on the boardwalk and many Veterans were pissed. It's the little things that add up and AC is currenty failing miserably.

[giselehaslice]

"When was the last time that many people were crammed on the boardwalk?"

Excuse me, but are you mentally disabled? The Atlantic City air show had over 1/2 million people crammed onto the boardwalk and beach. (That was about 2 months ago.)There is no way that there are 500,000 people on the b-walk in that 80+ year old picture.

The Schiff pier: EWW! But yeah I read a little while back that somebody wanted to redevelop it into a new dining destination a la Pier at Caesars less the retail. I don't know if it is still on track though.....

[Fabrizio]

For those that believe AC was a decayed urban nightmare in the 1970's:

You saw how beautiful the grand hotels were maintained from ACPlayers photographs... well now look at how even simple, non-luxury proprties were maintained: another shot of the Belmont Hotel 1973.

And note the shop at the B'walk.... it's not a Gucci... it's Woolworths, a low-priced department store but notice the perfectly maintained signage and windows. Compare this sign to the signs on those steel building junk shops.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/index23.jpg

Behind the Belmont you can see the Senator Hotel. This beautiful piece of architecture was off the Boardwalk... it will give you a clue as to how beautiful the side streets of AC were.

The Senator was a wild mix of architectural styles: mediterranean , art-deco, even an odd ball Tudor-style at the upper floors. Imploded in 1998:

http://oldegoodthings.com/excavat11.htm

[zipburn]

And WHAT is going on with the Cemtral Pier... that is a Shiff property isn't it? It looks like the Bronx 1975. Has anyone offered to buy it? I don't care for eminant domain but really.... the owners should be thrown in jail.
the schiff's stated last year they were going to turn into a retail hotel type attraction such as the pier but I think they just made up that story to get people off their back....

i support eminent domain on schiff's properties, im not sure about the owners of the garage on the boardwalk but if it is the schiff's it willl be a perm. structure.

[zipburn]

For those that believe AC was a decayed urban nightmare in the 1970's:

You saw how beautiful the grand hotels were maintained from ACPlayers photographs... well now look at how even simple, non-luxury proprties were maintained: another shot of the Belmont Hotel 1973.

And note the shop at the B'walk.... it's not a Gucci... it's Woolworths, a low-priced department store but notice the perfectly maintained signage and windows. Compare this sign to the signs on those steel building junk shops.



I'm sorry but that is one ugly mother of a building especially painted white, it looked attractive in that parade photo but not anymore... atlantic city is a tourist destination so I don't really see how a discount clothier store helps atlantic citys image although it sure does beat the hangar.

[Fabrizio]

Agreed. Times have changed and our expectations are different today. My point is not that AC needs a Woolworth's, but how even simple places like that were at least nicely kept. There was still pride. Compare the mindset between this and the steel structure that now stands on that spot. The Belmont was no great building even in that photo from 1925...but look how everything in the 1973 photo is still crisp and neat. Simple but not junky.

It should also be remembered that AC had the ornate luxury hotels as well as simple hotels right on the B'walk like the Belmont and the Mayflower. Shops ranged from deluxe like those at the Blenhiem, the Dennis, the Shelburn and Haddon Hall.... to places like Woolworths with it's cafeteria and soda fountain. The Boardwalk back then could be compared to stretches of Broadway, a bit of Times Square and a touch of 5th avenue.

Interesting to note that Woolworth's is at the Belmont in the 1925 photo (note the corner) and nearly 50 years later, it is still there.

---

[Intheknow]

Gyseel-Guess what, ten minutes after the air show everyone bolted out of town. Take a close look at that pic., I'll bet there are 500,000 people there.

Mentally disabled? No. How's your favorite developments going? There will be more casinos closing then opening in the next three years. You talk and talk but never admit when you have your head up your ass. Go play a pick-up game on Pacific Ave. tonight, there are no cars to worry about and with no parks it's the only place to play in AC.

By the way, the pier is starting to feel the economic crunch.

You could almost fit all the tee-shirt shops of today in that woolworths-almost.

[giselehaslice]

"You talk and talk but never admit when you have your head up your ass."

I have my head up my ass? You still don't admit to Revel being underway, even after numerous pictures are posted here.
_______________________________
"There will be more casinos closing then opening in the next three years."

You have no proof whatsoever that the casinos are going to close. It may be what you want, but it's not valid. With the economic bailout, I can see the economy picking up a bit. Not completely healing, but at least recover a little.
__________________________________
"Mentally disabled? No."

Really? If I were you I would say yes, so at least I would have an excuse for the simple-mindedness. Now I know that your just plain stupid.

[zipburn]

I like seeing the style and details, its nice inside Resorts how they preserved the interiors. If you go to Gallaghers burger bar, or the room where they have boogie nights very, very, nice. Also I'm happy the center city deli building got save from ED by Pinnacle. I know I have promised pictures before but Im going to try my best to wander around the city and take pictures. Haven't really had the time as of late.

[Intheknow]

Gissell- I never said Revel isn't underway, I said they won't finish.

I never seem to have proof but my "opinions" seem to be correct 90% of the time. Those chair pushers and waitresses are right on the money most of the time.

Stupid is a state of mind.

Again, you have not seen the worst of the economic crunch, I believe I stated this back in July when you said MGM, Pinnacle, AC Gateway, some condo project, etc..... were all moving forward. I'm still waiting for all this development and I will keep waiting for another three years, at least.

Now, when is this direct train from New York going to be in operation?

[Fabrizio]

I'm still waiting for those suspended cable cars that were suposed to travel above the boardwalk.

[acplayer]

Gisele, it's been noted by several sources that, "Revel now will apparently stick to its original plan of building its hotel towers in phases, opting to put up one tower and decide later if a second tower is appropriate for the market. Revel CEO Kevin DeSanctis says no plans have been changed and that building two towers at once was only an option." Also, an interview with John Pasqualoni, President, Resorts Atlantic City, John also mentions that due to the economy that Revel is only construction one tower at this time.

[giselehaslice]

I'm still waiting for those suspended cable cars that were suposed to travel above the boardwalk.

I actually dont really know if those are such a great idea. I think it would junk up the boardwalk even more, not to mention make the place look like one big theme park.

ACplayer, thanks for the info. I had a feeling that this was going to happen. Hopefully the other tower will be built later though.

[zipburn]

I'm still waiting for those suspended cable cars that were suposed to travel above the boardwalk.

I actually dont really know if those are such a great idea. I think it would junk up the boardwalk even more, not to mention make the place look like one big theme park.

ACplayer, thanks for the info. I had a feeling that this was going to happen. Hopefully the other tower will be built later though.

Actually the cable cars, marketed to the city were luxury cars, that were fully inclosed with leather seats and other amenities not like the ones you see in seaside.

It hasn't been reported but the northern most tower has stopped vertical development and the other tower which is a floor taller has stopped too for at least two weeks now..

[Intheknow]

Hmmmmm.

[zipburn]

Sorry I should have been more clear... I was just giving a visual status update, they are still working on the parking garage structure and considering it is right next to the tower still being built they might be putting a hold on the tower until the parking structure is finished. It would make sense logistically speaking. To make sure everyone is clear, they are still working as every day pieces of the parking garage come in, but the tower work has halted.

[Intheknow]

Hmmm. Now you're a construction project manager Zippy.

Revel is in trouble just like everyone else in this financial crises. You ain't seen nothing yet, regretably.

[Fabrizio]

Revel is in partnership with Morgan Stanley... and these are interesting times. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Revel Entertainment has no other casinos or development, no history... no track record. It is an unknown name... not a recognizable brand.

All I can say is: keep your fingers crossed....

[Intheknow]

.....and who has ever heard of AC Gateway? If MGM is in trouble these no names are dead. So, while we are still getting CRDA money, albeit less, why don't we fix the boardwalk. Just a thought.

[Intheknow]

All that land that Bashaw/Barr actually bought south of Hilton can be bought quite cheaply today, the banks are selling it So much for that land flip.

It really is looking bleaker and bleaker by the day here, lay-offs, cut hours etc.. and the City is just getting dirtier and dirtier.

[acplayer]

This is what the "dead zone" across from Central Pier used to look like in the heyday of A.C. compared to the recent photo that AGG recently posted. If A.C. were smart they would put together a plan, which the recent Boardwalk facade program attempts to do somewhat, to recreate and get back to the roots of the city that made it so unique.

The Hotel that stood on the current vacant lot on St. James Street across from Central Pier 1925
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/stjamesplacejuly1925.jpg

St.James & Boardwalk on Easter 1921 (and you thought the airshow was crowded Gisele)
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/eastermarch1921.jpg

St. James & Boardwalk looking south 1922
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/stjamesplaceeaster1922-2.jpg

[Fabrizio]

You don't have to go back to the 1920's to see a shot like that. Here's the boardwalk in winter in the 1960's....you know, back when AC was a "dying resort". Note how the people are dressed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/SENPA001-AtlanticCity003.jpg


----

I am so sad to see AGG's recent photo of the once grand Central Pier.

This is what it looked like back in the 1960's, back when AC was a "squalid, dying resort".

Note the canopies, and of couse the mile-long Fralinger's advert:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/SDENG010-A234a.jpg

[American Gaming Guru]

Oh man....it breaks my heart to see all those grand pics.

Here is a little bit of a boardwalk update from Pinky's column today:

"at the Boardwalk Committee meeting, a Casino Reinvestment Development Authority representative reported that the façade contract for the block between Ocean and South Carolina avenues, and for the Ritz Condominiums, has been approved and will be completed by June. Work on the facades and roofs of the New York and Chelsea avenue rest rooms will also be completed in the spring. The Venice Park bulkhead will be completed by the end of this year. A new ball field that will be located at Brigantine Boulevard and Maryland Avenue will be built with a $500,000 grant from the Revel Casino. They also reported there will be a Greenway project that will provide open space on Pacific Avenue from the Boardwalk to the Absecon Lighthouse. "

[Intheknow]

In the mean time Ventnor has re-built it's fishing pier, is currently replacing the south end of their boardwalk, all without CRDA money and they are getting it done in a tenth of the time.

When did they start the facade project?

[66nexus]

Not only do I think the picture pointed is not from the winter (note the many non-heavy coat-wearing patrons...it seems to be more like fall)

but in the 60's AC was indeed dying. You would not see the immediate effects of someone who just got sick.

People still came but more into the 70s the visitor wasn't nearly as high class as those in the photos.

And yes, I think casinos were medicine, just not administered correctly.

[Fabrizio]

We can split hairs over meaning, but no, it wasn't dying. Not at all.

That is a rewriting of history by the casinos, the NJ Government...and believed by those who do not know any better. Historians and people who actually lived there, who knew the place will tell you differently.

The city was in decline.... as were other N East Cities at the time. As anyone who knew Philadelphia... or NYC during the late 60's and 70's will tell you. AC on that front, was no different. (well actually AC's decline was not as steep).

The actual city is now dead. Destroyed by the after effects of speculation. There are 12 glittery casinos... a handful of other developments.... but the city? Gone. And AC was NOT on that path. If casino gambling had not come in, I truly doubt that the city would have been torn down .... as it was under it's years of casinos gambling.

In the 60's-70's Wildwood was dying, CapeMay was dying. Yet they are still there and doing well. I don't believe AC would have had the fate of Asbury Park.

I believe AC would have seen the tearing down of the Marlbourough (Blenhiem would have been saved) and a few others. But the other grand hotels would have pulled through. Revitalisation would have happened to AC exactly as it happened to other cities.

I'm rushing, but I never mentioned the push by AC resident Reeese Palley to have Disney take over the inlet. A plan way ahead of it's time...

-----

Actually, that photo is most likely Easter Sunday. The only other non-summer date it could be, that would require that fomality, would be a warm Thanksgiving. But the light tones on the women's clothes indicate spring.


----

[Intheknow]

I guess Revel will just run out of money and two major towers will just sit there empty. I guess MGM is breaking ground in Dec. And I guess somehow widening roads so their isn't major traffic backups is a bad thing. You have been posting alot of rumor/ignorant posts that have no merit. Everyone and their mother knew that Revel was going ahead with out full financing. Everyone also knows that they are being financed by Morgan Stanley. So is Morgan Stanley going under? Really that is what you are suggesting. If the city can get lower interest rates than Revel why not ask the city for some help on a job that the city is "supposed" to be responsible for in the first place? .... everything I just posted is factually sound. Can we say the same for your posts? NOPE!

As I always said- time will tell, Zippy. Hopefully some of these casinos will go under so we can start fresh.

The city is falling fast and it's not looking pretty, it's actually a little scary. Thank God I don't work in the Casinos.

[zipburn]

As I always said- time will tell, Zippy. Hopefully some of these casinos will go under so we can start fresh.

The city is falling fast and it's not looking pretty, it's actually a little scary. Thank God I don't work in the Casinos.

hmm...are you kidding? You hope some casinos will go under?

I posted a little early on the stoppage of work on the tower at Revel...well its going again, the steel is going up fast inbetween the two towers, they started work on widening streets, looks quite busy if you go by there..
Procida is popping up homes that look quite nice in former vacant lots, and the new post office/sun bank building is coming along nicely..they demolished those ugly brick projects on route 30 and are going to demolish the low income housing near pacific ave. shortly(located near revel)... bad bad move on letting procida build on the garwoods mills site.....

[Intheknow]

Oh man....it breaks my heart to see all those grand pics.

Here is a little bit of a boardwalk update from Pinky's column today:

"at the Boardwalk Committee meeting, a Casino Reinvestment Development Authority representative reported that the façade contract for the block between Ocean and South Carolina avenues, and for the Ritz Condominiums, has been approved and will be completed by June. Work on the facades and roofs of the New York and Chelsea avenue rest rooms will also be completed in the spring. The Venice Park bulkhead will be completed by the end of this year. A new ball field that will be located at Brigantine Boulevard and Maryland Avenue will be built with a $500,000 grant from the Revel Casino. They also reported there will be a Greenway project that will provide open space on Pacific Avenue from the Boardwalk to the Absecon Lighthouse. "

What you failed to mention from the article was the problem of low lighting on the walk and no/little light on parts of the boardwalk that was discussed by the boardwalk committee which Pinky is a member. They talked about the lighting, I guarantee nothing will be done for at least a year-typical AC all talk no action unless it involves more ratables. Why didn't Pinky mention that the boardwalk is closed on the north end and falling apart on many other portions. Pinky is a hypocrite.

Zippy the Trump Marina is getting revamped and you're all giddy about that. The Hilton is a dump, I'd like to see it go under so maybe someone could build a decent Casino. The weak will be washed out in this economy and the strong will capitilize and improve upon what we currently have.

[Fabrizio]

If anyone can take photos of the latest housing developments in AC , I'd really like to see them. Some of the homes I've seen look very good (condo towers... not so great). I'd also like to know what daily life is like in these neighborhoods.

[acplayer]

Cool photos Fabrizio. In the first one it looks like the middle section of the Steel Pier is missing. Hurricane? As far as daily life in A.C. all you have to do is read the Press...kinda depressing.

This was in the news about Revel and also Septembers casino numbers are due out tomorrow and it ain't pretty.

As reported in TheStreet.com, it looks like Revel is in trouble. "Morgan Backed Casino May Have Funding Gar."A spokesman for Revel Entertainment wouldn't say whether the casino has obtained financing ...

On a more positive note, here's some nice pics of A.C. I came across.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/aclightningbolt.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/aclifeguardboat.jpg

[Intheknow]

Fabrizio, there are no more "neighborhoods" in AC. They are called wards and they are void of any activity-very sad indeed. The only people on stoops are drug dealers or prostitutes. I really hate to be negative(believe it or not) but this town is down right depressing. Jon Stewart was here for a show last winter and the next night on his nationally televised show he said "Atlantic City the only place on earth more depressing than Iraq" We've come along way, in the wrong direction.

The problems aren't even being discussed yet alone acted upon by the local politicians.

[acplayer]

Intheknow, if A.C. is so depressing to live in, which I agree with for the most part, why don't you move...or run for office?

Update on Revel which is kind of hard to decipher.

MACK MAXED OUT - MORGAN STANLEY CASINO MAY BE BAD BET
PAUL THARP -- The New York Post, October 9, 2008 Thursday

Morgan Stanley chief John Mack is rolling the dice on a $2 billion bet to open a new Atlantic City casino - while rival Goldman Sachs chief Lloyd Blankfein got cold feet on building a competing casino next door and folded.
Morgan Stanley is all alone in holding together its big project to open the 3,800-room, double-tower Revel Casino showplace in two years, while it continues to seek financing for the casino, one of New Jersey's largest.
About seven floors have already been erected by builder Tishman Construction, using at least $300 million - and as much as an estimated $470 million - that Morgan Stanley helped provide in interim loans and financing, said industry sources.
"At this time, our exposure in not material to the firm," said a Morgan Stanley spokesman who declined to discuss the private casino project.
Morgan Stanley's deal suffered a setback last week when a state judge knocked a city bond referendum off the ballot to provide Revel with $56 million in assistance.
Analysts say it's a bad time for Atlantic City ventures, and several casino developers have been forced to shelve deals in recent weeks that were the centerpieces of a massive $20 billion facelift of the Boardwalk and beach.
Among the stalled projects is Goldman's deal to bankroll former Caesars Entertainment president Wally Barr, to build a gaming palace next door to Morgan Stanley's 20-acre Revel Casino, which is being headed by Kevin DeSanctis, former president of Penn National Gaming
Pinnacle Entertainment also shelved its plan for a $1.5 billion casino on the site of the former Sands Hotel Casino on the Boardwalk.
Mack's firm paid $3.43 million per acre for 20 vacant acres, or $70 million - while Goldman Sachs paid twice that, or $7.73 million per acre for its site, and Pinnacle paid the highest price for its land at $16 million an acre, said industry sources.

[66nexus]

That is a rewriting of history by the casinos, the NJ Government...and believed by those who do not know any better. Historians and people who actually lived there, who knew the place will tell you differently.

The city was in decline.... as were other N East Cities at the time. As anyone who knew Philadelphia... or NYC during the late 60's and 70's will tell you. AC on that front, was no different. (well actually AC's decline was not as steep).

The actual city is now dead. Destroyed by the after effects of In the 60's-70's Wildwood was dying, CapeMay was dying. Yet they are still there and doing well. I don't believe AC would have had the fate of Asbury Park.




Historians are the usual source that I collect that the city was indeed rundown. AC's pre-casino decline is carved into its history (unless the pre-casino decline is one of the most intelligently fabricated stories imposed upon us of all time.)

Tell me...why would such a 'not that bad' city need such a drastic undertaking such as legalization of gambling? (taboo in 70s)

I think that perhaps folks who actually did live there may have opinions that are biased merely because home isn't always as bad as an outsider would perceive.

To place almost all blame on the casinos is to completely ignore every other major contribution to the decline.

Wildwood nor Capemay had nearly the master assets AC had so they had much less to lose. Philly and NYC are bad comparisons and AC was absolutely different......

How?------: AC's economy is (and perhaps forever will be) entirely driven by tourism. There is neither financial or heavy industry to sustain it otherwise.

I truly believe AC would have had the same destiny as AsbP.

[66nexus]

acp

from a distance, that first pic you posted looks like a piece of the Strip.

[Fabrizio]

Morgan Stanley is all alone in holding together its big project to open the 3,800-room, double-tower Revel Casino showplace in two years, while it continues to seek financing for the casino, one of New Jersey's largest.



Please raise your hand if you think this is going to be completed in 2 years.

----

[Intheknow]

I did move, I'm only in AC part-time as of last month. I don't run for office because the pay is not good enough.

Gisel and Zippy, awfully quite on the Revel, MGM, Pinnacle etc.. Did you invest in these companies?

[American Gaming Guru]

Intheknow, if A.C. is so depressing to live in, which I agree with for the most part, why don't you move...or run for office?

Update on Revel which is kind of hard to decipher.

MACK MAXED OUT - MORGAN STANLEY CASINO MAY BE BAD BET
PAUL THARP -- The New York Post, October 9, 2008 Thursday

Morgan Stanley chief John Mack is rolling the dice on a $2 billion bet to open a new Atlantic City casino - while rival Goldman Sachs chief Lloyd Blankfein got cold feet on building a competing casino next door and folded.
Morgan Stanley is all alone in holding together its big project to open the 3,800-room, double-tower Revel Casino showplace in two years, while it continues to seek financing for the casino, one of New Jersey's largest.
About seven floors have already been erected by builder Tishman Construction, using at least $300 million - and as much as an estimated $470 million - that Morgan Stanley helped provide in interim loans and financing, said industry sources.
"At this time, our exposure in not material to the firm," said a Morgan Stanley spokesman who declined to discuss the private casino project.
Morgan Stanley's deal suffered a setback last week when a state judge knocked a city bond referendum off the ballot to provide Revel with $56 million in assistance.
Analysts say it's a bad time for Atlantic City ventures, and several casino developers have been forced to shelve deals in recent weeks that were the centerpieces of a massive $20 billion facelift of the Boardwalk and beach.
Among the stalled projects is Goldman's deal to bankroll former Caesars Entertainment president Wally Barr, to build a gaming palace next door to Morgan Stanley's 20-acre Revel Casino, which is being headed by Kevin DeSanctis, former president of Penn National Gaming
Pinnacle Entertainment also shelved its plan for a $1.5 billion casino on the site of the former Sands Hotel Casino on the Boardwalk.
Mack's firm paid $3.43 million per acre for 20 vacant acres, or $70 million - while Goldman Sachs paid twice that, or $7.73 million per acre for its site, and Pinnacle paid the highest price for its land at $16 million an acre, said industry sources.

My thoughts exactly! Pack up and leave Intheknow!!!!

BTW, the author of this article should be fired. How many false statements do we have here?

1) Competing casino next door? The Wally Barr/Bashaw site is on the complete opposite end of the boardwalk! But I get the point.

2) "Morgan Stanley's deal suffered a setback last week when a state judge knocked a city bond referendum off the ballot to provide Revel with $56 million in assistance." This was a set-back???? It was a victory for Revel! Local 54 wanted it on the ballot, Revel did not.

3) 20 Billion? News to me.

[Intheknow]

Do any of you want to buy a piece of property? Look, Ac can't get much lower, it can only go up (property values that is). I'm a young pup I can ride this out.

Every project in AC is either dead-Bashaw/Barr or dying-Revel. You're kidding yourselves if you think otherwise. The Chelsea hotel's life expectancy is less than a year.

[Fabrizio]

What I don't understand is this: someone explain to me, with the financial situation as it is, Revel is still not fully financed.... and it's a project that involves Morgan Stanley... how in the world is it going to find the kind of money needed? And remember "Revel", as a brand, means nothing to the public... it's not some sure-fire name. And casino gambling has left AC as an empty-lot waste-land... not some attractive city that might have a certain allure.

You guys explain to me what you think will happen here... what is the most likely scenario for this project. Thanks.

[66nexus]

'Borgata' wasn't a 'surefire' name either, it doesn't take a brand to be successful. The only point that has any relevance is the condition of the financial markets.

If the market was better there would be much more on the table...but it's not.

AC may not be aesthetically attractive, but it still attracts...

[Intheknow]

The Dunes all over again. It's not that you can't get the money it's the cost of borrowing-very cost ineffective.

History is repeating itself and AC is to stupid and greedy for this to happen over and over again.

[Fabrizio]

Borgata is in partnership with Boyd Gaming and MGM... so there is at least major casino business know-how involved.

Who is the casino connection with Revel Entertainment? As far as I know, there is not one casino in AC that is not one of the brands... and even they are doing poorly.

Point is: if you were going to lend money, does Revel sound like an attractive proposal considering the market news?

[66nexus]

At this point, even what you would consider worthy projects are not getting financing.

Everybody is waiting for the market to level-off and comeback.

Revel is not associated with major gaming, but you went on to say that the casinos that are associated with gaming are doing poorly, which kind of says that association with major gaming doesn't really help in these financially troubling times.

(you've said yourself that AC casinos have been doing it wrong since gambling's 1978 legalization. Wouldn't you prefer a fresh face anyway?)

And even still, the casino business is still a business and for Revel's potential backers it is an investment. I'm certain JPM is not ignorant to the casino business as they are very $$$ based. The casino industry can be very easily studied.

[Fabrizio]

I said, "As far as I know, there is not one casino in AC that is not one of the brands... and even they are doing poorly". So if "even they" are doing poorly, imagine trying to pitch this project to potential backers.
---

The fact that this casino ( without brand name history or casino backing) is underway, yet still looking for financing (in these troubled times) does not add up to a pretty picture. If what the article says is true, that "Morgan Stanley is all alone in holding together its big project".... I have to agree with intheknow: expect it to be stalled.

[Intheknow]

15.1% revenue drop from same month a year ago, good thing AC concentrates all its eggs in one basket. This is really, really, bad news. No wonder everyone is so depressed, me, I'm going out for a drink.

Lets hope these casino "gurus" can turn this mess around.

Resorts won't last another 8 months- a waitress told me that.

[giselehaslice]

I heard that Taj Mahal is going out next week. Caesars plans to abandon their hotel, they are going to sell scrap steel from the building in order to keep from bancrupcy. Revel is actually now inhabitted by the homeless, and every single other business is being taken over by the banks.

Let me tell you follks, times are really really bad for AC now.

[Fabrizio]

AC's economy is (and perhaps forever will be) entirely driven by tourism. There is neither financial or heavy industry to sustain it otherwise.

In the past, even during AC's rough period in the 60's and 70's, AC tourism was generated by a wide variety of attractions. Money, spent in the city, went to countless businesses, a wide variety of shops, restaurants, the piers, hundreds of hotels/motels/boarding houses, bars, movie theatres, coffee shops, night clubs etc, etc.

People came for the beautiful beach, to walk on the boardwalk, they came for the shopping...

The AC economy today is based on tourism that is mostly generated by casino gambling. And casino gambling is in the hands of: Colony Capital , Harrah's, Trump, the organization that owns the Borgata.... and that's it!

4 companies...plus the Tropicana under conservatorship... and that's 5 companies. The economy of AC is based on the attraction of 5 companies... and money spent goes where? Mostly to those 5 companies... they own the casinos, the bulk of the restaurants, the clubs, etc. The money is spent mostly with-in the walls of 5 companies. That's screwy.

That's why the city is now so crappy.

Even money spent shopping at the Pier and the Walk goes to the 2 companies that own the complexes and to the national chains that own the shops, as opposed to local owners.


----

[Intheknow]

Gisel, I'm being very serious. These Casinos are hurting bad. Time has told the story with a couple of chapters left. You are a fool.

[giselehaslice]

Damn striaght I'm a fool. Theres an old saying, "It takes one to know one."

Oh I forgot to mention, they are selling all of the planks off the boardwalk so they can build a fence on the AC expressway.

"The money is spent mostly with-in the walls of 5 companies. That's screwy."-Fabrizio

I think its funny that you seem to Idolize Disney. That's one company that has a monopoly on far more than 13 hotels in one town. Disney has a whole town, plus 4 huge theme parks and way over 13 hotels all in one area.

[Fabrizio]

You said it perfectly: "Disney has a whole town...."

In fact: the objective with Celebration was to create the ambience of a town. Let's call it a 3rd way...and it works. In this case, the means do justify the end.

[Intheknow]

Gasil, Ummm...Disney created a "town" they didn't come in and build in a viable city. Are you on some sort of stupid pills?

[Fabrizio]

"Disney created a "town" they didn't come in and build in a viable city."

^ which basically explains it better than I did.

[giselehaslice]

Your missing the point.
They own EVERYTHING in the area. I'm not against Disney or anything, but It's kinda funny how you'll critisize everything about AC but then basically want to fornicate with places that share some similar qualities.

Intheknow, If I were you I would shut the hell up. You sound like a complete retard ALL THE TIME. At least that is what a waitress told me.

[Intheknow]

It's funny that what you called idiotic three months ago is coming true. Retard is politically incorrect, it's mentally challanged. Now go out and spend your paycheck on penny slots.

By the way, look for a major state indictment on AC City Hall in the near future.

[giselehaslice]

Watch out guys, Atlantic City is soon going to be invaded by slot-playing Aliens. They say they are going to be freindly, but I think they really are just planning on sinking the Island.

Oh and I just heard that the Chelsea was burnt down. Probably Arson, Curtis Bashaw needs the money......

[Intheknow]

Mark my words, Curtis is in serious trouble. Also, speaking of fire, you will start hearing about suspicious fires at numerous buildings in AC, most notably restaurants.

Curtis can't even pay for his famous rolling chairs, what does that tell you.

[giselehaslice]

Wow. You are rediculous.

[Fabrizio]

Girls please, this is tedious.

------

In the meantime: from today's PressofAtlanticCity:

Casinos see biggest monthly revenue decline in Atlantic City history

Casinos reported $356 million in casino win in September, a 15.1-percent decrease over the same month a year ago. It is the largest monthly decline in Atlantic City's 30-year history of casino gambling.

Results reported to the New Jersey Casino Control Commission Wednesday show that the 11 casinos won $244.7 million at the slot machines and another $111.2 million at table games in September. Slot revenue fell 18.6 percent while table game revenues declined by 6.2 percent.

For the first nine months of the year, casinos won $3.6 billion, down 6.3 percent from the same period in 2007. Revenue from slot machines is down 8.1 percent and revenue from table games is down 1.8 percent for the nine months.


-----

Good luck to MorganStanley in finding their financing...

[zipburn]

ok..... Morgan Stanley has the liquidity to cover this project but the fact that the stocks are tanking isn't something MS wants to have to worry about right now... they are hoping for other financing to come along to easen their burden but if it doesnt why would they stall the project or quit considering the money already spent? This casino will open when the markets start to right ship... which will be perfect timing(well depends on what the s-hole government does) With the steel and the parking garage the place looks huge! They started working on the hotel floors of the tower being built right now so it will rise at a much slower pace then before but it is moving along quite quickly... and no im not a construction manager my friend is working on the place...

people like ITK who constantly look for the negatives of a situation are the reason why people are in panic right now.... the stock market is still above 2001 levels and it usually responds to bigger drops with much bigger upswings... look what happened since the tech bubble burst.. we just have to hope that the government stays away from the market as much as possible... people talk about regulations like they are something good? regulations equal costs and less profits which can be correlated with less investment... case in point the airline industry, they are having trouble finding A&P Mechanics because the industry is sooooo heavily regulated if the mechanic forgets to sign one paper or doesn't date the paper correctly they have to find a new career...

[zipburn]

and not signing a paper or dating it correctly will not cause one person their life because every other aspect is sooo heavily regulated...hell if the airline industry was still regulated(with regards to price controls) how much do you think airline tickets would cost? they were over $400 back in the 70's, do the math!

[Fabrizio]

"If the mechanic forgets to sign one paper or doesn't date the paper correctly they have to find a new career..."

You bet... and I truly doubt the public would want it any other way.

About the gov. stepping in to regulate the markets: perhaps you are right.... but that's the American way: socialism for the rich, free market for everybody else.

--

[zipburn]

i HATE to bring in politics to this but i LOVE atlantic city, i was born here went to Atlantic City High School, i have only seen AC from the mid-80s on and I must tell you my early remeberence of AC was reallly really bad.. but the improvements have been so overwhelming of late its hard not to get excitied about the future... i mean really the biggest drop in ac "monthly history" is 15% really thats nothing at all, vegas has been at(+) -15% for a long time now..for what the situation permits the city is doing quite fine..

[zipburn]

"If the mechanic forgets to sign one paper or doesn't date the paper correctly they have to find a new career..."

You bet... and I truly doubt the public would want it any other way.

--
Well I hope the public is liking the fact that the airlines are getting their repairs done outside the country....

I'm sorry as I personally learned very very harshly IGNORANCE is not an excuse.....do you want americans repairing your planes or indians because of regulations.....

[Intheknow]

Zippy, blah, blah,blah, You don't understand shit.

[Fabrizio]

I don't understand how Europe does it. Full of regulations... and I've not heard of airplane maintenence work being out sourced (but correct me if I'm wrong). In the meantime, we've got much more pleasant air travel, nicer airports, public transportation to and from those airports and etc.

Anyway: actually I agree with you about AC in the 80's: speculation was in full gear, the city was being torn down and replaced with little, the casinos were uniformly ugly, the product they were offering was proudly geared to bussed in day-trippers ...to casinos with lots of bad food and cheap ugly surroundings. It was beyond gross. Since then, there have been gains ... but c'mon... 20 years have passed... that's a lifetime.

[zipburn]

*

[zipburn]

*

[zipburn]

I don't understand how Europe does it. Full of regulations... and I've not heard of airplane maintenence work being out sourced (but correct me if I'm wrong). In the meantime, we've got much more pleasant air travel, nicer airports, public transportation to and from those airports and etc.

Anyway: actually I agree with you about AC in the 80's: speculation was in full gear, the city was being torn down and replaced with little, the casinos were uniformly ugly, the product they were offering was proudly geared to bussed in day-trippers ...to casinos with lots of bad food and cheap ugly surroundings. It was beyond gross. Since then, there have been gains ... but c'mon... 20 years have passed... that's a lifetime.

I don't have the time to debate you on aviation but in all honesty it really wouldn't be a debate, please stick to atlantic city thank you very much! I only brought up the aviation industry to make a point...stick to your expertise its in your best interest...

[RYinNJ]

Girls please, this is tedious.

------

In the meantime: from today's PressofAtlanticCity:

Casinos see biggest monthly revenue decline in Atlantic City history

Casinos reported $356 million in casino win in September, a 15.1-percent decrease over the same month a year ago. It is the largest monthly decline in Atlantic City's 30-year history of casino gambling.

Results reported to the New Jersey Casino Control Commission Wednesday show that the 11 casinos won $244.7 million at the slot machines and another $111.2 million at table games in September. Slot revenue fell 18.6 percent while table game revenues declined by 6.2 percent.

For the first nine months of the year, casinos won $3.6 billion, down 6.3 percent from the same period in 2007. Revenue from slot machines is down 8.1 percent and revenue from table games is down 1.8 percent for the nine months.


-----

Good luck to MorganStanley in finding their financing...

In May of this year gambling revenue along the strip was down 16.4% and 5.4% for the first half of 2008.(http://economicrot.blogspot.com/2008/07/las-vegas-gaming-revenue-down-16.html)

August results were not much better according to a Bloomberg news article:

Oct. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Las Vegas Strip casino gambling revenue declined for the eighth straight month in August as cash-strapped U.S. consumers curbed entertainment and travel spending because of an economic slowdown.
Gambling proceeds from the Strip fell 7.4 percent to $494 million in August, Nevada's Gaming Control Board (http://gaming.nv.gov/) said today.
Casino revenue at the largest U.S. gambling center slid 6.7 percent to $4.21 billion this year through August as U.S. consumers struggled with higher gasoline and food prices, declining home values, job losses and the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.


Good news is it isn't just AC...bad news is there isn't much else in AC other then Gaming to help during bad times!

AC is really doing a good job seeking Las Vegas's image!

[lofter1]

I love it when a poster goes off on a tangent and then, when their tangential point is torn to shreds, the original poster flames other posters for following up.

zipburn: Is it time for a nap?

[Intheknow]

If last night was any indication-70 degrees, Friday night, boardwalk near empty!-October #'s are going to be horrendous. The good thing about this free fall is the lack of noise pollution, buses entering the city must be down by over 50%.

Meanwhile, Ocean City is having a huge Indian Summer themed weekend, Wildwood is having races on the beach, both are huge draws. AC is having.........

[66nexus]

I don't understand how Europe does it. Full of regulations... and I've not heard of airplane maintenence work being out sourced (but correct me if I'm wrong). In the meantime, we've got much more pleasant air travel, nicer airports, public transportation to and from those airports and etc.


? And all this time I thought folks were walking...

[66nexus]

In May of this year gambling revenue along the strip was down 16.4% and 5.4% for the first half of 2008.(http://economicrot.blogspot.com/2008/07/las-vegas-gaming-revenue-down-16.html)

August results were not much better according to a Bloomberg news article:


Good news is it isn't just AC...bad news is there isn't much else in AC other then Gaming to help during bad times!

AC is really doing a good job seeking Las Vegas's image!

Thanks for posting this.

But I can tell you now, it won't hold water. Perhaps some feel that AC's problems are limited to AC only.

I truly believe that if the markets were better then the many projects that never made it past announcement/renderings would already be on the construction table.

[Intheknow]

How much does it cost to hold events that pack cities like Ocean City and Wildwood are having this weekend. The goal for a tourist town is to attract people which these cities have been doing all fall. The more people the more money for local business, it's pretty simple.

Again, posters are comparing AC to other cities, that's part of AC's problem. AC should be the one to be compared to, limited goals/dreams are a waste of time and money.

[Fabrizio]

"Perhaps some feel that AC's problems are limited to AC only."

In many ways they are.

LasVegas' gambling numbers may be down, there is certainly less spending over all in all sectors, but Las Vegas is an international destination with plenty of attractions. AC is not.

LasVegas' image is sterling (deserved or not). AC is still a city that you have to make excuses for. (pretty amazing after 30 years of casino gambling). I don't have one well-heeled friend from over here that would even consider spending a few days in Atlantic City... but Vegas? You bet.

AC's problems are unique. Name another resort city in the US that presents it's self with such a sad desolate landscape. When AC's gambling numbers go down... what's left?


---

[lofter1]

The American side of Niagara Falls is really sad and pitiful.

[Fabrizio]

For anyone interested: You can see photos and an entire display about me at the Niagra Falls Daredevil Museum.

----

What is particularly telling is to go to the official AC travel site and look at what they promote as non gaming attractions. Pathetic.

http://www.atlanticcitynj.com/visit/SearchResults.aspx

[Intheknow]

What's even more pathetic, the international college students that come to AC for the summer all say that if you don't drink or gamble there is nothing to do in town. This is the impression of America they take home with them. With all the states opening up gambling maybe that's where America is heading.

[Fabrizio]

Back when AC was beautiful and unique:

View from the Dennis:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/card00121_fr.jpg

Before it's funky ghetto-style paint job: The Dennis looking like the PlaceVendome in Paris:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/card00122_fr.jpg

Dennis terrace:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/card00123_fr.jpg

This is why ParkPlace was the most expensive street on the Monopoly board:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/card00126_fr.jpg

A shot of the Haddon Hall: note the city streets. Note the rooming houses behind the hotel. These homes were beautiful and I stayed at one of them in the early 80's. The white hotel on the right is the SeaSide. The neighborhood was beautiful and genteel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/card00145_fr.jpg

[RYinNJ]

"Perhaps some feel that AC's problems are limited to AC only."

In many ways they are.

LasVegas' gambling numbers may be down, there is certainly less spending over all in all sectors, but Las Vegas is an international destination with plenty of attractions. AC is not.

LasVegas' image is sterling (deserved or not). AC is still a city that you have to make excuses for. (pretty amazing after 30 years of casino gambling). I don't have one well-heeled friend from over here that would even consider spending a few days in Atlantic City... but Vegas? You bet.


---
You make a very good point here. It is going to be a very tough next year or two for AC.

[Intheknow]

Notice all the green grass in last pic., not much of that in AC today. Google Earth AC and you will be hard pressed to find any green, alot of beautiful concrete but not much greenery.

Only sounds in City tonight are crickets and police sirens, ahhh, life at the beach.

[zipburn]

Alot of special events in town for Columbus day weekend, city was pretty packed... with the crowds today and what the fight will bring next weekend, not so sure about halloween, it might be a good month from here on out...

[66nexus]

I don't have one well-heeled friend from over here that would even consider spending a few days in Atlantic City... but Vegas? You bet.

AC's problems are unique. Name another resort city in the US that presents it's self with such a sad desolate landscape. When AC's gambling numbers go down... what's left?


---

So you don't have a friend that would not consider a few days in AC...I am unclear to the significance of this. (I've been to several beautiful resorts in Europe, notably Spain, that I'm certain most in the US have never even heard of let alone being able to spell the name; le Estartit)

AC is a regional attraction, and has been for the last several decades. Air travel took away AC's international luster to begin with. Some folks, for whatever reason love AC, and can easily overlook surroundings, others are completely turned off...it depends on what type of person you're dealing with.

Name another resort city with 'desolate' landscape: Asbury Park.

When AC's gambling numbers fall, there had better be more emphasis on the beach.

It's not that AC will lose customers, it will lose its type of customer. Already proven as the adjacent states legalized their own gambling.

The old AC visitor was high-class, replaced by lower-class visitors as AC's hotel stay rates shrunk over time.

[Fabrizio]

LOL. Isn't that wonderful: millions and millions of dollars of gaming revenues earned over 3 decades.... names like Ceasars, Trump, Harrah's... and what must we compare the landscape of AC to? Asbury Park and the US side of Niagara Falls... hey, let's throw in Coney Island too.

Good job New Jersey!

[66nexus]

Well you asked for another resort town.

I bet you all of Tuscany that Asbury Park or Coney Island couldn't make this list if they started redeveloping tomorrow:

http://www.thetravelerszone.com/travel-destinations/top-25-most-visited-tourist-destinations-in-america/

I for one think the boardwalk should be MUCH better than what it is, but my opinion won't stop the next guy from going. Those pics of old AC...they're like a dream, or a land time doesn't remember...

Certainly we can look back and try to remember, but while we're looking back we have to move forward.

[Fabrizio]

I bet you all of NewJersey that if Forbes had complied such a list 30 years ago, the Boardwalk would have been much higher on the list.... oh well that's progress.

BTW: I'll take Forbes word for it, but the Delaware Water Gap gets more vistors than the GrandCanyon?

Well, you learn something new every day...

[Intheknow]

O.K. lets look forward. Name 1 thing the CITY is doing to improve. Any infrastructure improvements on the horizon? Any community developments on the horizon? There is a total lack of community events in AC, its gotten worse in the last two years. The only thing it has going is the air show and that is getting stale, like the rest of the city and Casinos.

Yesterday AC had a Columbus Day Parade on the boardwalk, it consisted of two floats and a Miss NJ, it was beyond embarrassing. Where is all the money going?

The Boardwalk is closed on the north end, that's unbelievable! Don't you agree?

[Fabrizio]

Ah progress....


ACs world-famous parking lots and blank walls:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/000a.jpg

Compare the prison walled Pennsylvania Ave (see above) to what it looked like up until casino gambling:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/003.jpg
(photo acplayer)

[66nexus]

O.K. lets look forward. Name 1 thing the CITY is doing to improve. Any infrastructure improvements on the horizon? Any community developments on the horizon? There is a total lack of community events in AC, its gotten worse in the last two years. The only thing it has going is the air show and that is getting stale, like the rest of the city and Casinos.

Yesterday AC had a Columbus Day Parade on the boardwalk, it consisted of two floats and a Miss NJ, it was beyond embarrassing. Where is all the money going?

The Boardwalk is closed on the north end, that's unbelievable! Don't you agree?

I can't agree with you because too many of your statements are too opinion-heavy: "the air show is getting stale..." How am I supposed to challenge that if that's how you feel about it? Many people went to the air show, but if you don't/didn't like it then what can I say?

[66nexus]

I bet you all of NewJersey that if Forbes had complied such a list 30 years ago, the Boardwalk would have been much higher on the list.... oh well that's progress.

BTW: I'll take Forbes word for it, but the Delaware Water Gap gets more vistors than the GrandCanyon?

Well, you learn something new every day...


Well, 'progress' is certainly a word you plucked and used. Who is to argue that 30 years ago the Boardwalk wouldn't have been higher on the list? The fact that NJ ever thought casinos alone could save a city to me is as absurd as NJ thinking the Prudential Center alone would save Newark.

30 years ago AC was perhaps still together (on infrastructure terms), but what you fail to acknowledge is that decay does not happen overnight. Was Asbury Park mostly intact 30 years ago?

The Delaware Water Gap has a much denser population in its region than does the Grand Canyon.

[Intheknow]

You can't agree that it is unbelievable the boardwalk is closed on north end? That's not opinion that is a fact.

You can't name 1 thing looking forward that the city is doing to improve the city that isn't connected to a private entity? Alot of posters feel AC is moving in the right direction, well what leads them to believe this except for new casinos "maybe" being built?

[Intheknow]

Alot of posters stated as "fact" that MGM was breaking ground in December, Pinnacle was on course, AC gateway project was happening, etc..... Some still believe Revel is on schedule, these "facts" you regurgitate from news articles are mostly b.s. coming from the mouths of Casino developers.

[AC11]

Alot of posters stated as "fact" that MGM was breaking ground in December, Pinnacle was on course, AC gateway project was happening, etc..... Some still believe Revel is on schedule, these "facts" you regurgitate from news articles are mostly b.s. coming from the mouths of Casino developers.

As opposed to what comes from your mouth??

[acplayer]

Hey Fabrizio, the Niagara Dare Devil Museum? Did you go over the falls in a barrel? Also, great pics of the Senator Hotel on that website. I didn't know it was still there in 1998. A total crime that hotel was demolished.

Like it or not IntheKnow has been right more times than not with what he's post. As far as there being only 2 Columbus Day floats that's probably how many Italians are left in Ducktown, which is now mostly Puerto Ricans and Mexicans.

I truly believe that A.C. is in such a bad situation because of #1. greed #2. poor planning/government #3. And most important, the people that live in A.C. A city is only as good as it's people and it's quite clear that the community of A.C. is nothing like what it was 50 years ago. There is no resort destination that I know of that has the type of residents that A.C. now has.

From todays Press regarding the Parade. Very sad.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/186/story/283205.html

"Atlantic City has changed," she said. "In Ducktown, there's very few Italians left. The old-timers are no longer here."