Atlantic City Seeks New Image: Las Vegas's [Archive] - Page 7

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Fabrizio

September 24th, 2008, 04:39 PM

Oh boy, those chair pushers! I totally beleive you now.

That's funny, a chair pusher told me that AC is looking nicer than he has ever seen it. Tons of people walking along the streets, going in and out of shops (not The Walk), and restaurants. The Walk is over-spilling with people, it is hard to drive because sidewalks were overflowing into the streets. Most of the city looks like a vibrant, a walkable and pedestrian freindly place. Oh... and those flower shops!

giselehaslice

September 24th, 2008, 11:33 PM

The only thing you accomplished in that post was making yourself look even more like a jerk. Is that possible?

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 10:29 AM

Gee, looks like Revel and City bond deal may fall through. I've stated markets are bad and getting worse but most of you have the dreams of a gambler.

I'm all for new development, but I'm a realist. The City is turning into Paulines Prairie.

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:09 AM

Intheknow, once again, you just do not! I dont know why you constantly post false rumors.

The Chelsea is still under construction. I woke up early from the noise! I toured around the hotel a bit. The Spa is almost finished (water is now in the salt water pool) and the courtyard of the old HoJo's looks great. The Lite rooms are to open in a few weeks.

Teplitzkys looks awesome, the food is great, but the menu could be expanded and the service needs to improve. Chelsea Prime has supposedly been the talk of the town and a run-away success so far.

Revel is progressing fast and furiously. I certainly hope they do not run out of money but as we have discussed, you certainly have to think that they will.

I also took some boardwalk shots to show streetscape and exterior improvements. It was a nit cold, so not many people were sitting at outdoor cafes when I was walking the boards.

Lastly, I took some shots of the Chairman Tower lobby. There is not much to see at this point, but figured I would give everyone a feel as to the design that they are shooting for there.

Enjoy

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:16 AM

Some exterior shots. I did not want to take interiors of Teplitzkys as there were too many peole having luch at the time. I will try and get them next time.

Looking at the Chelsea from Pacific
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08053.jpg?t=1222351847

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08054.jpg?t=1222351914

You can see the construction workers having lunch here on the Lite tower balcony

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08003.jpg?t=1222351969

From Chelsea Ave

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08056-1.jpg?t=1222352050

I am a big fan of the Chelsea Prime design, so I figured I would take another shot.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08004.jpg?t=1222352132

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:27 AM

The glass has been removed from Boardwalk Hall that formed the walkway between Trump Plaza and Trump World's Fair. I do not think it really made much of a difference, but now the original exterior look has been restored. This building is truly breathtaking!

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08007.jpg?t=1222352355

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08008.jpg?t=1222352384

Some new facades. Some finished and some still under construction. They look great.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08006.jpg?t=1222352414

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08005.jpg?t=1222352490

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08014.jpg?t=1222352522

Versus the old view. This blok has obviously not been touched yet. They still have a few more to go.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08011.jpg?t=1222352603

Examples of some "street life" on the boardwalk (again, it was a bit cold this morning).

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08017.jpg?t=1222352687

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08001.jpg?t=1222352750

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08002.jpg?t=1222352810

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08010.jpg?t=1222352833

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 11:34 AM

You woke up to constuction, nice. I'll bet the house lite will not be open in a couple of weeks. How about their rolling solar chairs, can you get one? No one out at the outdoor cafes? Outdoor pizza joints is the correct term. Chelsea will be bankrupt soon, please, as always, mark my words. Does the hotel appear to be crowded or even semi-crowded? Don't tell me it's the middle of the week BS, to break even they need to be busy everyday.

I hope they succeed but they are having serious troubles.

When did they start re-doing facades? It sure is taking awhile, maybe with overtime the 100 million isn't that bad!

The boardwalk should be bustling, it is not. Did you see the trash truck going down the middle of the boardwalk? Is the Ocean touching the sand berms that are protecting the boardwalk, a nor'easter is coming. What a waste of money and views of the ocean.

Honestly, don't you see how it could be sooooo much better?

Two constuction workers having lunch, hmm. Notice the original HOJOs sliding glass doors for the balconies, there staying, and they don't work that well.

How much was your room?

Isn't it somewhat depressing, try and notice how many people, workers and tourists, are smiling. This does make a difference as does the dirt and trash.

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:35 AM

Access is to the new Taj Chairman Tower is on the 2nd Floor "Spice Road" They just extended the lobby off of the existing towers elevator bank.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08024.jpg?t=1222352991

Looking from the Chairman Tower back at the original elevator bank.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08019.jpg?t=1222353085 (javascript:void(0);)

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08023.jpg?t=1222353200

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08022.jpg?t=1222353221
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08018.jpg?t=1222353245

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08020.jpg?t=1222353284

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08021.jpg?t=1222353304

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:49 AM

I can not believe the progress that has been made in just about one month. I walked the entire site perimeter and took many pics (went a little camera happy, but figured mostly everyone would enjoy these).

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08026.jpg?t=1222353472

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08027.jpg?t=1222353492

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08028.jpg?t=1222353511

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08029.jpg?t=1222353523

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08030.jpg?t=1222353542

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08031.jpg?t=1222353555

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08032.jpg?t=1222353568

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08033.jpg?t=1222353581

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08034.jpg?t=1222353595

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08035.jpg?t=1222353608

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08036.jpg?t=1222353623

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08037.jpg?t=1222353636

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08038.jpg?t=1222353655

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08039.jpg?t=1222353673

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08040.jpg?t=1222353688

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08041.jpg?t=1222353701

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08042.jpg?t=1222353714

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08043.jpg?t=1222353730

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08044.jpg?t=1222353743

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08045.jpg?t=1222353755

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08046.jpg?t=1222353776

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08047.jpg?t=1222353790

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08048.jpg?t=1222353804

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08049.jpg?t=1222353964

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08051.jpg?t=1222354091

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08052.jpg?t=1222354322

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08050.jpg?t=1222353977

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Lastly, this one was taken especially for Intheknow. I thought you might like it!

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/AmericanGG/AcUpdate9-24-08025-1.jpg?t=1222354476 (javascript:void(0);)

JCMAN320

September 25th, 2008, 12:02 PM

You know what in Intheknow, you are all wet. Just do yourself and the city of AC a favor and move the hell out. You are obviously bitter and don't know jack about anything. The Revel is obviously moving along. Your posts have no creedence obviously.

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 12:08 PM

Time will tell.

How's MGM, Pinnacle, AC Gateway? Tear and rip out more of the city before you have financing, just like Paulines Prairie, when will you learn?

That is pre-fab concrete paid for months ago that is making Revel appear to be progressing nicely. It's not my fault the credit markets are in the worst shape they have evr been in.

Sincerely,

Realist

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 03:31 PM

Thanks for the photos.

I wonder if anyone here realizes that this corner is a "recreation" of one of the limestone Neo-Gothic wings of the old Dennis Hotel (destroyed by Bally's). Note the details. It's a very sweet idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/0aa-1.jpg

giselehaslice

September 25th, 2008, 03:54 PM

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 05:20 PM

Look, the CITY is still a slum after 30 years of casino $$$ to help revitalize it, more casinos will not help the CITY. There are a handful of restaurants in the City that are worthwhile, Docks, Knife and Fork, Angelinos, Fairmount. There are no worthwhile shops in the city, the Walk and Pier are it, and they are extremely generic. The parks, besides O'Donnell Memorial Park, are tiny and useless to the general populous of the city. No bowling alley, movie theater, supermarket, if you want this to be more than a 6 hour stay get-away, you must have these. This is what makes a city. The crime, drugs, filth, grafitti are now in EVERY neighborhood in the city. People don't clean their properties, look after their neighbors, or teach their children to be respectful. City services are basically useless, an employment agency for politicians relatives. The police are racist and corrupt, like everyone else in City Hall. It's all about the money to NJ politicians not the quality of life for it's citizens.

Call me a wet towel, pessimistic, negative, but I state the truth. Development is going nowhere and won't until credit markets improve. You all re-hash what Casino developers say and get all excited, well they are full of shit, always were always will be.

I'm telling you AC is going to go through alot more hurt before it gets better, if it ever gets better.

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 05:56 PM

I will say this, and it's interesting to note: see that line of junky run down t-shirt shops that AGGuru posted? When the idea of gambling was first floated back in the 70's, that kind of squalor did not exist on the B'walk (or Pacific or Atlantic) for that matter. There were still plenty of very nice shops including the Reese Paley gallery and Bamberger's at the Blenhiem, The Shelburn had a beautiful, elegant restaraunt that faced the Bwalk with a huge curved window, the Haddon Hall had the most elegant pharmacy (a 1920's time capsule) that was still in operation... and many other very nice places.

66nexus

September 25th, 2008, 06:07 PM

Look, the CITY is still a slum after 30 years of casino $$$ to help revitalize it, more casinos will not help the CITY. There are a handful of restaurants in the City that are worthwhile, Docks, Knife and Fork, Angelinos, Fairmount. There are no worthwhile shops in the city, the Walk and Pier are it, and they are extremely generic. The parks, besides O'Donnell Memorial Park, are tiny and useless to the general populous of the city. No bowling alley, movie theater, supermarket, if you want this to be more than a 6 hour stay get-away, you must have these. This is what makes a city. The crime, drugs, filth, grafitti are now in EVERY neighborhood in the city.
Call me a wet towel, pessimistic, negative, but I state the truth.

Development is going nowhere and won't until credit markets improve. You all re-hash what Casino developers say and get all excited, well they are full of shit, always were always will be.

crime, drugs, filth aren't good things. But when someone posts construction photos and you cite neighborhood crime it seems like a misdirected response. Crime control is something casinos or any development aren't going to fix.

You take the same statements of the developers that others may praise, and reject them. In essence, you're the opposite extreme.

ps, a bowling alley, movie theater and supermarket, while good things, are not foundations of a great city. Especially one as as small as AC.

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 06:10 PM

66nexus

September 25th, 2008, 06:14 PM

^That is a great obervation. It's nice that they tried somewhat to bring back a little relic of the past.

Revel is going up really fast. Last time I was there none of that base building was there. Chairman tower looks okay, could use a little more "life", but the design is nice I guess.

Agreed. It looks decent but it doesn't seem to fit in AC. It looks very much like an office building, 'Chairman tower' indeed.

66nexus

September 25th, 2008, 06:24 PM

"Crime control is something casinos or any development aren't going to fix. "

Nexus: the design of the casinos has seriously ADDED to the crime scene in AC.

"ps, a bowling alley, movie theater and supermarket, while good things, are not foundations of a great city. Especially one as as small as AC."

Indeed it is the small amenities that ARE signs of a healthy livable place... the foundations of a great city are not 12 casinos.

I absolutely disagree that the design of the casinos themselves has added to crime. (perhaps a better argument could be that the simple neglect of abandoned properties/surface lots has allowed criminal activity to flourish.)

Perhaps low-cost housing which proves affordable to low-income residents has much more to do with that. Poverty-stricken neighborhoods have statistically (and significantly) higher crime rates than their higher-income counterparts.

and no argument: 12 casinos are also NOT the foundations of a great city. AC is the center of its metro, those 'small amenities' are perhaps what allows AC to get by so long without it. A city of 40,000+ does not need every feature within city limits. If such was the case, then even a very large city like NY would not make it.

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 06:25 PM

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 06:29 PM

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 07:07 PM

The reason we don't have a supermarket is because they are unprofitable due to shoplifting. I have never encountered a city that was so lazy, where Gov. handouts are expected and demanded. No wonder the Irish, Italians, Jews left town.

This doesn't mean that the city should be in the shape it's in today. The Casino's philosophy is all wrong, more people means more business, no matter if they are coming to gamble or use the beach.

I can't wait to get AGGs take on his stay at Chelsea and the surrounding area.

Abandoned buildings and lots were mostly caused by the Casinos and the gold rush mentality of landowners when they approved gambling in 1976.

66nexus

September 25th, 2008, 07:09 PM

Are you blind, deaf, and dumb? Open your eyes and look at the CITY, read the papers about the credit crises, who has provided any proof that they have full financing for building a casino, don't you think thay would shout it out if they did have financing? You are a dreamer, which is fine, but I don't believe what you gigel, acg, zippy keep croaning about is going to come true anytime soon. Get over it and keep feeding money into the Tropicana.

Casinos bring in un-desirables why do you think other Citys are going through a public outcry for casinos in "my backyard".

There you go again. Grouping your opponents. Where do I mention ANYTHING at all about financing and the Tropicana?:confused: I don't know what you're arguing, and I don't think you know either.

'casinos bring in undesirables' (and I believe Fabrizio was speaking more about the architecture than the gambling habit if that's what you're referencing)...and you have a problem with this yet choose to continue to live in Atlantic City, NJ...of all places. You're confusingly inconsistent.

66nexus

September 25th, 2008, 07:24 PM

Nexus: I'm not going to do your homework for you: do a little study on the subject. Bad architecture of this kind, breeds crime. Empty lots, parking lots, blank walls...

Barren streets create a petri dish for breeding crime. The casinos were built to TURN THERE BACKS on the city.

"A city of 40,000+ does not need every feature within city limits."

Yeah... a supermarket would be too much to ask.

Fabrizio, I want you to do nothing more than to read my posts where I clearly stated that: "a better argument could be that the simple neglect of abandoned properties/surface lots has allowed criminal activity to flourish" (#1520).

At what point is an 'empty lot' architecture? When is a parking lot architecture? You grouped the casino architecture with abandoned properties. You stated, and I quote: "the design of the casinos has seriously ADDED to the crime scene in AC".

I acknowledged burned out lots, but you said 'architecture'...it sounds like you're blaming the bare casino walls for the bulk of AC crime. I disagree, as I've stated earlier, I link AC's crime to its poverty-stricken populace.

I know you like to cite how things were not as bad before casinos, but you also ignore that AC was already on a downward spiral, it just didn't get to its lowest levels because well...it was still the 70's. Hell, even Newark wasn't at its worse the immediate years following the riots.

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 07:31 PM

Ummm, maybe I can't sell my abode? Your not opponents and if you were I wouldn't group you, I'd divide and conquer. Do you really think AC is going in the right direction?

Most surface lots were added to accomidate parking for the casinos, where the property owner could make a quick buck.

66nexus

September 25th, 2008, 07:40 PM

Ummm, maybe I can't sell my abode? Your not opponents and if you were I wouldn't group you, I'd divide and conquer. Do you really think AC is going in the right direction?

Personally, I don't really get into where AC is 'headed'. I see new things and respond accordingly. Newer developments such as the Water club...I can like, something like the Chelsea/Revel I can wish it success, while other new developments, such as the Chairman tower, I'll criticize.

AC is going to have to find itself. The Vegas model was tried and failed, but I am still confident AC can thrive.

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 07:42 PM

Nexus: do you feel safer walking on a city street with store fronts, businesses, hotels, theatres, restaurants ( streets with a thousand eyes).... or on a street that is barren... fronted by a parking lot, blank wall etc?

You tell me.

Yes, blank walls and streets boarderd by parking lots are architectural choices.

Look what Trump offers at Pacific Avenue. It goes against every theory of what makes a street feel secure. This is not how you build a successful city:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/TajExpansionPlan.jpg

---

Nexus: some required reading for you:

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Life-Great-American-Cities/dp/067974195X

---

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 07:52 PM

I think it can thrive also, but, we must start by getting rid of the local government. Do you know that the City of AC's budget is larger than all of Atlantic Countys, something like 300 million. Where is the money going? The Casinos should demand a better city yet they promote closing the city off from their precious cash cows.

We've been talking and talking and talking and nothing is ever done about any of the problems plaguing the city.

If it doesn't pertain to making a buck the Casinos don't want to hear it, everything is geared toward suckers getting into a casino and spending their money.

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 08:03 PM

Sorry guys, but I feel the city will NEVER thrive, or at least never meet it's potential, if it continues to be built as per the Trump illustration above.

Nexus wrote: "...you like to cite how things were not as bad before casinos, but you also ignore that AC was already on a downward spiral, it just didn't get to its lowest levels because well...it was still the 70's. Hell, even Newark wasn't at its worse the immediate years following the riots."

I honestly do not believe the city would have reached the depths that it had in the ensuing years. It is the speculation that came from gambling that ripped the city apart.

It can be debated, but my theory is that the city could have rebounded without gambling.

Other cities had rioters tear their cities apart: AC had speculation do it. AC was in decline, it had the inlet and Pauline's Prarie, but it was not Camden, it was not Newark, it was not North Philadelphia... it was not a burned out urban jungle.

You do not seem to be aware that while AC was declining, losing business to Miami etc... new development WAS going on. The late 60's and early 70's saw the addition to Convention Hall, The huge Holiday Inn on the B'walk, The modern addition to the Blenhiem facing the boardwalk, new small motels throughout the city, the Gordon's Alley project. ... but gambling was to be the shot in the arm... something to truly turn things around.

The real bright spot with gambling is that it HAS offered jobs and opportunity to thousands of people... and that's no small thing. In that sense gambling has been a blessing to many.

But AC? The brick and mortar city? (and that's what this forum is about) Still after 30 years it's mostly a dump.

---

giselehaslice

September 25th, 2008, 09:24 PM

I agree with Nexus about the crime problems. Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them. Buildings do not cause crime, its the people who use them that do.

I find it very interesting that you highlight the "development" of motels and Holiday Inns, because if anyone even tried to post info on a new motel being built in AC right now, you would laugh at them.

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 09:40 PM

The first Holiday Inn in Atlantic City was a top-of-the-line hotel and it was on the Boardwalk near the Convention Hall. It later became the Playboy Casino... then the Atlantis and then it became the Trump.

The smaller Holiday Inn was a well maintained property and is now the Chelsea Hotel.

So what in the world are you talking about?

(interesting BTW that the recladded Holiday Inn looked very much like the Water Club or the Borgata: http://www.library.unlv.edu/arch/events/stern/playboyth.jpg)

As for: "Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them."

Uh... yeah.

giselehaslice

September 25th, 2008, 09:59 PM

Okay then, what about the other motels you talk of? And Holiday Inn- top of the line? Now thats laughable.

"As for: Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them."
"Uh... yeah."

They don't, so what are you trying to say?

Fabrizio

September 25th, 2008, 10:20 PM

(Oh boy...)

Holiday Inn Crown Plaza was the one on the Boardwalk... 40 years ago this was one of the better hotel chains. Holiday Inn had inexpensive motels along the highways and the up-scale Crown Plaza's in city centers. It was their attempt at competing with Hilton.

---

"Blank walls do not mysteriously sell people drugs, or murder them. They don't, so what are you trying to say?"

Ever hear the phrase: "like talking to a blank wall" ?

Intheknow

September 25th, 2008, 10:50 PM

Gesel, once again, quit while you're behind.

Cleaner areas usually stay clean, because of human nature people tend not to litter when there is no litter around and vice versa. Blight is like a cancer, when untreated it tends to lead to death, even if you put twelve band-aids on it.

Fabrizio doesn't laugh about the posts of new hotels/casinos, I do, because I know it is impossible due to the financial markets! You talk about all these rumors and falsehoods-MGM, Pinnacle, Revel, AC Gateway.... get over it, it ain't going to happen anytime soon. In fact, AC may lose more Casinos than it gains in the next three years.

giselehaslice

September 25th, 2008, 10:53 PM

Thanks Fabrizio, but again, I'm not asking about the Hojo on the boardwalk. You talk of other motel developments through the city in the '70s. If you mentioned it, it must be really worth it. I'm so excited to see how luxurious Atlantic City's motels were in the 1970s. And the architecture, must have been simply breathaking! Still waiting for them.

Yes, I've heard that phrase. In fact, I feel like I'm talking to a blank wall right now.

Intheknow, if anyone spreads rumors, it is you. You make obscene remarks about completely false info. I think you go and dream this stuff up and post it just to get a rise out of us.

acplayer

September 25th, 2008, 11:29 PM

Great pics AGG. Also, good eye Fabrizio on the new facade near the Irish Pub that reflects the old Dennis Hotel wings. I think the facades and a huge improvement...the only problem is none of it is organic. There are no small business owners doing this on their own like they used to in the past. Same with Atlantic Ave. It's all corporate and CRDA money, not grass roots from people that live in and have a vested interest in A.C. like Intheknow and Fabrizio were saying.

Dennis Hotel Neo-Gothic wings
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acdennis1.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acdennis2.jpg

American Gaming Guru

September 25th, 2008, 11:44 PM

Fabrizio, quick correction. If I recall correctly, the original Holiday Inn still stands today. It is The East Tower of Trump Plaza pictured here on the right:

http://www.cityatlantic.com/pictures-travel/hotels/985095.jpg

Bob Guccione purchased the hotel in the 80's and attempted to incorporate it into his planned Penthouse Hotel/Casino project. He erected the steel behind the hotel (famously around houses and businesses) and then ran out of money. The steel stood for years until Trump bought the project and took all the steel down. Trump then renovated the exisiting Holiday Inn and incorporated it into Trump Plaza.

The building that you posted was built from the ground up by a partnership of Playboy/Elisnore Corp. It opened as the Atlantic City Playboy but was short lived as Hef was denied a gaming license. Elisnore then assumed control and re-named the property Atlantis. Atlantis was never a successful business (many blamed the gaming floor lay-out) and eventually the Atlantis went out of business.

Trump bought this one too, closed the casino (at the time no one was permitted to own more than three licenses which Trump already had). He then rebranded the building as a non-casino hotel resort called the Trump Regency.

Once the limit on gaming licenses was lifted (after much Trump lobbying) Trump then re-opened the casino and was re-branded again as the Trump World's Fair at Trump Plaza.

Again, as we all know the casino did not perform up to expectations. But this time the property was closed and demolished.

There is more to the story upon what came next, but we can leave that for another time.

If anyone wants to know why it remains an ugly vacant lot on the boardwalk, I will be happy to go on.

66nexus

September 26th, 2008, 12:31 AM

Nexus: do you feel safer walking on a city street with store fronts, businesses, hotels, theatres, restaurants ( streets with a thousand eyes).... or on a street that is barren... fronted by a parking lot, blank wall etc?

You tell me.

Yes, blank walls and streets boarderd by parking lots are architectural choices.

---

I'm not arguing what 'feels' safer (hell...store fronts, businesses, could even feel safer than a street with a forest next to it).

What you stated was that this seriously contributed to crime. As gise stated earlier, I do not think the walls are to be of complete blame for crime.

66nexus

September 26th, 2008, 12:33 AM

acplayer how old is that pic? I suppose the dollar stores started early:confused:

And the gold-cladded Trump world's fair casino resembles the Water Club in color only.

acplayer

September 26th, 2008, 02:51 AM

66nexus that photo is from 1978, before Bally's tore it down. As far as crime goes, I think they need to put more cops back walking the beat.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acpolicebw.jpg

zipburn

September 26th, 2008, 03:11 AM

seriously people need to stop responding to InTheKnow, this guy is full of himself and thinks that in the 2.25 yrs he has been here(formerly from one of the most disgusting citites in the world filthadelphia) that he somehow is some kind of development expert is absurd. This guy bleeds ignorance full time and is a disgrace of a poster, he posts falsehoods on a daily basis but the people who post the truth are punished because they over react to his BULLSHIT!

zipburn

September 26th, 2008, 03:12 AM

i have never heard someone sound soooooo stupid in my life as ITK

Fabrizio

September 26th, 2008, 06:46 AM

Nexus: re: the correlation between architecture and crime.

I am not stating my opinions. I am stating well documented facts between architecture/urban design and crime. For some study on the subject I have reccomended to you “The Death and Life of Great American Cities” by Jane Jacobs. You might also do well to read "Defensible Space: - Crime Prevention through Urban Design" by architect Oscar Newman.

Again I will repeat: the AC formula of fortress hotels that turn their back on the city with their streets turned into no-man's land void of life ....breeds crime. Even simple logic would indicate that.

And BTW, refrain from mis-quoting me. I did NOT say that "the walls are to be of complete blame for crime." What I actually said was: "the design of the casinos has seriously added to the crime scene in AC".

Got it?

-----

The Hotel Dennis: before gambling came in, the hotel still featured one of the world's finest jewelly stores: Traubert&Hoeffer (outposts in Paris, Palm Beach) as well as a Nat Sherman boutique. Sad to see that photo with the t-shirt shop.

Please note the pristine condition of the hotel. Note how all of the intricate detailing (despite years facing the ocean) is PERFECT.

-----

Gisel: my exact quote is the following: "You do not seem to be aware that while AC was declining, losing business to Miami etc... new development WAS going on. The late 60's and early 70's saw the addition to Convention Hall, The huge Holiday Inn on the B'walk, The modern addition to the Blenhiem facing the boardwalk, new small motels throughout the city, the Gordon's Alley project."

Nowhere do I say luxurious motels. Those are your words. My point was that people were still investing in the city, construction was still going on.... people still believed in the place. I want to make the point that the city was declining but it was not in the horrible condition of many other cities in NJ at the time.

BTW: interesting to note that that those motels built (mostly) in Chelsea at the time, where built for vactioners who came to Atlantic City to stay for days and to enjoy the city and beach. They hosted families. In other words a type of traveller the city today would also like to attract. The motels had more in common with the traditional small hotels that were all through the city in it's hey-day. About their architecture: modest but it is curious that Wildwood has chosen to landmark them.

Intheknow

September 26th, 2008, 06:46 AM

Yes, and 2 months ago most here stated that MGM has no problems, Pinnacle is on track and to this day you say Revel is on track, time will tell. Yet, I'm full of shit.

AGG did you see the Chelsea Rolling chairs? The reason I ask is the owner of these chairs stated they have not paid the bill for these and they were being taken away. This matters because if they can't pay for something that was heavily promoted like the chairs they are in trouble. How was your stay? Was check-in/out o.k. How about the 5th floor? Was it busy?

As for Philadelphia, Center City is one of the most walkable citys in the world. It still maintains very diverse/eclectic neighborhoods. Everyone portrays Philadelphia by North Philadelphia AKA the Badlands, this is a very small portion of the outer city and on a positive note you can score some good quality drugs their and low quality prostitutes.

lofter1

September 26th, 2008, 10:48 AM

Did someone mention crack whores?

The current economy may bring us a resurgence.

Fabrizio

September 26th, 2008, 11:35 AM

^ And AC is a great place to work.... so many parking lots.... perfect for a 5 dollar quicky between parked buses.

Hey, at the end of the day it adds up!

----

AGGuru: thanks for refreshing my memory about the Holiday Inn and clearing things up. It does still stand as the Trump.

In that photo you can get an idea how big the HolidayInn was. Remember, this was a time when new hotels of that size in a city center really meant something. New hotel activity was mostly on highways and airports.

--

66nexus

September 26th, 2008, 01:55 PM

Nexus: re: the correlation between architecture and crime.

I am not stating my opinions. I am stating well documented facts between architecture/urban design and crime. For some study on the subject I have reccomended to you “The Death and Life of Great American Cities” by Jane Jacobs. You might also do well to read "Defensible Space: - Crime Prevention through Urban Design" by architect Oscar Newman.

Again I will repeat: the AC formula of fortress hotels that turn their back on the city with their streets turned into no-man's land void of life ....breeds crime. Even simple logic would indicate that.

And BTW, refrain from mis-quoting me. I did NOT say that "the walls are to be of complete blame for crime." What I actually said was: "the design of the casinos has seriously added to the crime scene in AC".

Got it?

Fab, I really need you to do something for me. I really, really need you to read my posts because so far you're not.

I did not quote you as saying the walls are to be of complete blame for crime, I said 'gise' as in giselhaslice said it (in so many words and I agreed).

You DID say it has seriously added to AC's crime. This is what I am attacking.

It's like saying that Newark's fortress Gateway design has seriously added to crime in Newark as if it is the primary contributor.

I choose my words very carefully, I never disagreed that surface lots/blank walls don't help breed crime, but I want to know how you came to the conclusion that it seriously added to AC's crime.

Serious is a strong word and can be classified as an extreme. So when you say something seriously does something else, you're talking about a substantial amount, to an overwhelming degree, the main contributor, etc.

-mentioning logic does not back up your claim.

66nexus

September 26th, 2008, 02:03 PM

Gisel: my exact quote is the following: "You do not seem to be aware that
Nowhere do I say luxurious motels. Those are your words. My point was that people were still investing in the city, construction was still going on.... people still believed in the place.
them.

So you can knock newer developments (bad architecture and such), but when folks knock one of the older ones you simply imply: well at least they were investing back then...

couldn't the same be implied for today's developments? (whether you approve or not?)

Intheknow

September 26th, 2008, 03:08 PM

They are investing for themselves, they are not making improvements in/for the city, which in the long run hurts everyone. Casinos have proven they are not urban developers, yet AC officials/city planner go along with what ever they want to do.

Fabrizio

September 26th, 2008, 03:33 PM

Oh... well then we agree that the walls are NOT "to be of complete blame for crime."

However, if your own logic does not lead you to see that blank walls (etc & etc) do infact breed crime... and make it easier for a criminal to act... I have mentioned 2 authors that are considered to be authorities on the subject.

I claim that the design of new developments in AC and their lack of urban friendliness has seriously added to the crime scene in AC.

Note that the highest crime rates in AC (outside of the traditionally poor areas with their own particular set of problems) are those areas with the lowest street density. The area of Pacific to the B'walk was always the safest area of AC... not so today. Unless a good system of security cameras is set up... you can expect crime around the area of the Chairman Tower with it's parking lot on Pacific and side street blank walls to remain the same:

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nj/atlantic-city/crime/

giselehaslice

September 26th, 2008, 03:55 PM

Gisel: my exact quote is the following: "You do not seem to be aware that while AC was declining, losing business to Miami etc... new development WAS going on. The late 60's and early 70's saw the addition to Convention Hall, The huge Holiday Inn on the B'walk, The modern addition to the Blenhiem facing the boardwalk, new small motels throughout the city, the Gordon's Alley project."

Nowhere do I say luxurious motels. Those are your words. My point was that people were still investing in the city, construction was still going on.... people still believed in the place. I want to make the point that the city was declining but it was not in the horrible condition of many other cities in NJ at the time.

Okay, thats nice, but theres development going on in the city right now which I think everyone can agree on being better than a motel. I just find it kinda hypocritical when you have so much critisizm for the new developments but think its really important to mention that the new motels were being built back in the '70s.....

Fabrizio

September 26th, 2008, 04:06 PM

Isn't it fascinating that that so much of what I have written about here in the past year, is repeated in the book: "Boardwalk of Dreams: Atlantic City and the Fate of Urban America" ... a book that I was only made aware of about a month ago.

Some excerpts of a review of the book from the New Orleans Times-Picayune:

"Despite these impressive numbers, in "Boardwalk of Dreams" Bryant Simon concludes that "the gaming industry has not saved Atlantic City.""

"Twenty-six years of gaming, he argues, have left the city in many ways worse off than it was in the mid-1970s when it was a decaying, honky tonk resort whose best days had long passed. Today, Simon maintains, Atlantic City is a dysfunctional place with a jarring landscape of fortress-like casinos surrounded by boarded storefronts and derelict houses. Only a few blocks from Donald Trump's "gaudy and gilded showplace" the Taj Mahal, "are some of the loneliest, most desolate streets in America."

"In 1976, New Jersey voters approved casino gambling in Atlantic City. Confident that jobs and glittering prosperity were on the way, joyful residents in the city's working class neighborhoods literally danced in the streets. "Everyone," one local leader recalled, "was a millionaire that night." Curtis Kugel, the owner of a venerable Atlantic City seafood restaurant, spoke for many when he predicted that his town would "turn around and be what it was in the twenties and thirties." The "boardwalk of dreams" would be reborn."

"When the first casino opened two years later, such hopes quickly faded. Most of the jobs created by the casinos went to non-residents. Because casino managers did not want employees competing with gamblers for parking spaces, they built "intercept lots" outside of town and bused employees from their cars to their jobs. As result, few workers "ever stepped foot on Atlantic City streets" and "there was little chance for any of the casino riches to trickle down into the city."

"Restaurateurs and amusement pier operators who hoped to feed and entertain giant crowds also found disappointment. It soon became apparent that the new tourists seldom left the casinos. Gamblers lined up at casino buffets instead. And casino architects fashioned their buildings in a manner that made access to the boardwalk and beach difficult. Casino patrons remained sealed in a windowless, clockless
maze of slot machines until their money ran out and tour operators herded them back onto buses."

Atlantic City's ethnic neighborhoods also suffered. Speculators and casino corporations bought houses in those districts, tore them down, and built parking lots. During the early 1980s, bulldozers leveled one third of the city's homes. Local efforts to resist such change proved futile and residents who refused to sell found that their quality of life quickly deteriorated. All of the city's movie theaters met the wrecking ball. Buses rumbled down the streets at all hours. Crime rose by eighty percent. Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

"On the boardwalk, the old hotels and restaurants began to shut their doors. Luigi's, Carl Kruger's restaurant that had once served a thousand dinners a night to hungry vacationers, closed and made way for a casino. The massive Marlborough-Blenheim Hotel, a faded masterpiece of orientalist architecture, was torn down and replaced by a Bally's casino "that looked like an unimaginative merging of a Day's Inn and a K-Mart." Even Reese Palley, one of Atlantic City's most ardent gambling proponents, eventually lamented the changes casinos had wrought. "We were all innocents," he said later. "We didn't know what would happen...We didn't have to sacrifice everything."

"Although "Boardwalk of Dreams" paints a depressing portrait of present day Atlantic City, Simon's love for the city and its history is clear.

"Casinos, Simon concludes, have not made Atlantic City a better community. The glory days have not returned. Instead, the "Queen of resorts" is now "a stark, vacant, poor city with a beach, the Boardwalk, and,...twelve separate, inward looking casinos...that leave only crumbs on the Monopoly streets around them."

http://www.amazon.com/Boardwalk-Dreams-Atlantic-Urban-America/dp/0195308093/ref=pd_sim_b_1

giselehaslice

September 26th, 2008, 04:31 PM

Your right! I'd much rather have all of Atlantic City be boarded up and have rotting motels, housing projects at the entrance to the city, cheesy carnies, creepy old buildings, and rusting piers. It would be just great if there were no modern hotels with any modern conveniences. I would just adore imagining what could happen with all the nothingness.

Fabrizio, you don't realize that if gaming never came to AC it would be just like Asbury Park. It does not matter how beautiful the architecture is (AP has some beautiful buildings), people WILL NOT go if there is nothing to do. If AC didnt have casinos, what would you go there for? You might say the beach, but no, I would pick that as one of the last beaches to go to on the NJ coast. The city does have it's fair share of problems, but gaming has NOT made them worse. It has provided jobs for thousands of people, and if that's a bad thing in your mind, then I really don't know what to say.

Fabrizio

September 26th, 2008, 05:16 PM

"then I really don't know what to say."

Is that a promise?

giselehaslice

September 26th, 2008, 05:32 PM

No, it's not.

Intheknow

September 26th, 2008, 06:47 PM

What other developments are going on in AC besides half of Revel? Well, the facades that, at the current rate, should be done by 2011. Talk, talk, talk. Show me the money.

People are being laid off in the Casino industry in AC, does this indicate growth?

Wildwood is jumping every weekend in the fall. Last week was Irish festival, this week Italian festival and big trucks on beach(Thunder on the beach), not to mention firemen convention, bike weekend, film festivals etc.. they really know how to extend their summer. In AC if you pick up this weeks weekly paper it's the same old, same old. In fact if you picked up last years weekly for this week you wouuldn't know the difference. We didn't have the seafood festival this year, the Atlantique City Antique show-which used to be largest on east coast- is now combined with the wine and food show at the convention center(new). We are contracting slowly but surely. One day these Casinos may wake up and realize the more people in the city the better for them.

Gisel, any suggestions for an exciting weekend that doesn't involve gambling or drinking?

Also, their should be something interesting in AC press (the weekest paper in America) soon concerning the beach dunes in NJ, I'm still pissed about the lack of ocean views from boardwalk. By the way these dunes were untouched, again, by the latest Nor' easter. I don't trust the DEP, or Corps of engineers, although most of you appear to have faith in what they tell you.

66nexus

September 26th, 2008, 07:12 PM

I claim that the design of new developments in AC and their lack of urban friendliness has seriously added to the crime scene in AC.

Note that the highest crime rates in AC (outside of the traditionally poor areas with their own particular set of problems) are those areas with the lowest street density. lot on Pacific and side street blank walls to remain the same:

That must be convenient for you to exclude in the name of an argument: '...outside the traditionally poor areas...' in which I said from the beginning that AC's poverty-stricken populace is the primary factor...you want to blame walls for their 'serious contribution'.

Fabrizio

September 26th, 2008, 07:18 PM

Absolutely. Not only do I want to blame bad urban design on breeding crime... but so do most urban planners working today. I believe bad urban design/bad architectural choices ( blank walled streets etc) have seriously added to the city's crime rate.

And I completely agree with you that AC's poverty-stricken populace is the primary factor. I never said otherwise.

----

Re: The dunes. Really... they look like a spite fence.... as if LasVegas officials paid off the Corps of engineers to make them as ugly and obtrusive as possible.

Intheknow

September 26th, 2008, 11:12 PM

I guess I'll go bum tipping for some fun.

giselehaslice

September 27th, 2008, 12:55 AM

It's amazing how you get offended when I complain about your negativity. As for the dunes, I don't understand the whole drama over them, they are a natural thing at the shore. Granted these dunes are not natural, but have you ever seen the dunes in Avalon, Cape May Point, Island Beach State Park? All the cactus and other interesting plants are really cool.

I have asked you this before Fabrizio. HOW MANY YEARS AGO WERE YOU LAST IN ATLANTIC CITY?

acplayer

September 27th, 2008, 03:22 AM

I forgot to post this earlier in response to AGG's pic of Trumps conversion of the Holiday Inn...this is what predated the Holiday Inn.

1968
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acconventionhall1968.jpg

Fabrizio

September 27th, 2008, 04:53 AM

Gisel: the last time I was in Atlantic City it was to see the Dave Clark Five at the Steel Pier.

Why do you ask?

--

giselehaslice

September 27th, 2008, 01:21 PM

Well I'm not sure who that is, but thanks for answering. I ask becuase I'm curious to see when was the last time you have been there in person, able to see the new developments and stuff. I dont know how many years ago that was though...

Intheknow

September 27th, 2008, 02:31 PM

acplayer

September 27th, 2008, 02:37 PM

Well this article from todays Press pretty much means that A.C. will be stuck with the dunes blocking the ocean view. Unbelievable how badly A.C. is managed. Also, Fabrizio, as far as all the new developments Gisele is talking about....at the city level you only have The Walk, new Boardwalk facades, the Pier and the Chelsea. While these are positive developments at the same time there's probably another 20 vacant lots and the once nice, solid Chelsea neighborhood and Ducktown have deteriorated a lot. There are no small business owners, entrepreneurs, young professionals, middle class families, etc...living in the city with their families opening stores, restaurants, amusements, etc...

Ocean City loses appeal to cut height of dunes
Ocean City lost its fight against the state to scoop sand off the tops of ocean view-blocking dunes following a state appellate court decision released Friday.
Ocean City appealed the Depart-ment of Environmental Protection's findings that led to the denial of a permit the city needed to lower the height of some dunes.

acplayer

September 27th, 2008, 03:08 PM

Hey Fabrizio, is this you after the Dave Clark Five show?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/acplayerr/acbwc1970.jpg

Fabrizio

September 27th, 2008, 03:43 PM

I beg your pardon? That's me modelling for Tanya Hawaiian suntan lotion
.

RYinNJ

September 27th, 2008, 04:57 PM

Lmao....

Intheknow

September 27th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Now that's funny!

The only improvement to the boardwalk from the above picture is that they have installed old fashioned lights, only twenty more years to go before we get actual roofs on our pavilions.

AC no longer has a community, neighborhoods etc... Areas of the city are now defined by the amount of crime and drug traffic. This is sad but true.

Gisel, the Dave Clark Five was an anti-terrorism group that guarded the Atlantic Coast of the U.S.A. from the Commie bastards.

66nexus

September 27th, 2008, 06:14 PM

One of the ways you can tell it's dead in the city- 10 Jitneys drivers taking a break on Atlantic Ave. at 1 o'clock on a Saturday! The crickets are chirping in AC this weekend.

Somehow I think you...enjoy that. Like celebrating it. Jitneys are a new measure of city life...those god-awful things.

66nexus

September 27th, 2008, 06:16 PM

Absolutely. Not only do I want to blame bad urban design on breeding crime... but so do most urban planners working today. I believe bad urban design/bad architectural choices ( blank walled streets etc) have seriously added to the city's crime rate.

And I completely agree with you that AC's poverty-stricken populace is the primary factor. I never said otherwise.

Added...okay, seriously added, I can't agree. So I'll agree to disagree on the matter.

-that area in front of the T. Plaza area is 'charming'.

Intheknow

September 27th, 2008, 06:33 PM

Jitneys are not a new measure they always have been a measure. Like how many buses come into the city each day, how many beach chairs were rented in a day. Many things measure how a city is doing, I don't enjoy it I wish the city were bursting at thhe seams.

Fabrizio

September 27th, 2008, 06:43 PM

Nexus: just know however that these are not my opinions, these are fundamental concepts of good urban design and responsible architecture... and that's why there are laws in place in cities all over the world to direct development in a pedestrian friendly way.

Again I will suggest that you do a little study on the subject... but I do understand, in your case, if you chose not to.

-----

Re: the area in front of the TPlaza.

It is indeed charming, packed with about 10 businesses: jewellry stores, shoe store, diner, candy shop etc. All opening out on to the B'walk. Note people looking into the windows, standing in doorways. The frontage is friendly and being used. The busnesses are modest... but not squalid. From an urban design standpoint... that block functions beautifully. Compare it to the WildWest decorated blank wall and other such alienating nonsense that came later. That is the stuff that's squalid indeed..

Is it glittery and luxurious? No... but it's on par with an average block on Broadway around 40 years ago. That is what the "Main Street" street scenes of American cities mostly looked like in that era.

The buildings are (with the exception of the James' building) dumpy... but in fact: they are waiting to be torn down to make way for the Holiday Inn.

Isn't it fascinating however that AC's own CRDA is spending millions to bring back that same modest low-rise architecture? Note how those crappy bay-windowed buildings in the photo above are basically being mimicked here:

http://www.njcrda.com/facade-1500Block.html

Now, you guys tell me: why have they decided to do that?

-------------------

The James' building however: it is an absolute 1940's late-deco/moderne-style neon-wrapped jewel that would be landmarked today.

I have a dim recollection of being taken there as kid for hot chocolate on a cold rainy winter day. My uncle had taken my cousin and I into AC to see a movie and then we stopped there afterward. The entrance was on the side street. There was a long counter where we sat.

ACplay thanks for that photo!
-----

zipburn

September 27th, 2008, 07:46 PM

One of the ways you can tell it's dead in the city- 10 Jitneys drivers taking a break on Atlantic Ave. at 1 o'clock on a Saturday! The crickets are chirping in AC this weekend.

Any development to speak of, anyone...anyone?

Actually they do that almost every saturday, they have lunch or a meeting in the park(guessing)... I see it all the time

If you actually went into the establishments you would see that most people are on the inside of the buildings because today wasn't the nicest of days but you can continue to believe what happens around that stupid park dictates the amount of people in the city...

Intheknow

September 27th, 2008, 08:29 PM

66nexus

September 27th, 2008, 10:04 PM

I guess you can't tell how many people went to a ball game by how many hot dogs were sold, or beer.

Since when do jitney drivers, who rely on fares for their living, stop for lunch? Ten at a time? You obviously never spoke with a jitney driver, what they being way beneath you. The casinos were so busy today I had to wait in line to get on a slot machine.

Once again the stupid park is a memorial to our war veterans.

To shred your argument about hot dogs sold, if one person had two hot dogs

What on the green earth does my talking to jitney drivers have to do with anything?

Jitney drivers beneath me? I didn't say it...but you did, so perhaps that is how you truly feel then?

And now you're a slot player?

66nexus

September 27th, 2008, 10:18 PM

Intheknow

September 27th, 2008, 10:23 PM

66nexus

September 27th, 2008, 11:39 PM

First I was speaking of zippy.

Ummm over 180 games you can get a good idea of how many people attended the game by hot dog sales, one guy had two hot dogs on game 101 but on game 140 not one person had two? People do studies on this, it's called stocking, inventory..

I'm not that stupid to gamble at a Casino, the slot statement was sarcasm.

How's MGM progressing? Its stock price?

For you to think AC is changing for the better is foolish, these new "projects" are the same as in 1976. These new Casinos will be obsolete in 20 years, yet the older hotels that stood for 80 years in AC would have stood the test of time to this day.

Seriously, I think you are naive.

Okay, I guess you didn't detect my own sarcasm about the hot dogs...and not for nothing, I think they determine attendance by ticket sales.

MGM? Stock price...? Huh?

You're terribly confusing. I notice when you're responding you tend to go off on tangents with no clear direction...?

So now you have me saying that I: 'think AC is changing for the better', even though not too long ago you asked me did I think AC was 'headed in the right direction' and I clearly stated that 'I didn't know', I judge new developments as they come. That is of course you were talking to Zip again?

As far as new developments being the same as in the '70s. If you say so.

zipburn

September 28th, 2008, 12:55 AM

Since when do jitney drivers, who rely on fares for their living, stop for lunch? Ten at a time? You obviously never spoke with a jitney driver, what they being way beneath you.

Funny because I personally know quite a few jitney drivers, they are retired city workers bringing in extra income to supplement their pensions... you can't be poor and afford a jitney license.. so again can you please use facts or is that beneath you? If you were so inclined go out next saturday at the same time, I bet you will see the jitneys in the same spot parked across from the knife and fork and if you look in the park you will magically be amazed that some people are wearing shirts that have the jitney emblem on their chest. It's one of the few parts in the city where they are able to park in masses.

Since your such the big business expert, if atlantic city has been going down hill since 1976, why would anyone in their right mind invest in the city 2.5 years ago? Since thats you I'd like to hear an answer.

acplayer

September 28th, 2008, 04:23 AM

Here are some very recent posts from A.C. gamblers off Tripadvisor that I think are a good indicator of activity as well as the local barometers such as Jitney drivers, etc... Overall, A.C. has a pretty good summer but the town really needs to get its act together and soon.

Posted on: 9:34 pm, September 24, 2008
We stopped by yesterday and had a drink with a friend who has worked at Bally's since day one.

The WWW was dead with 6 tables open and a few people playing slots. She told us the WWW would be closing Monday through Thursday since business was slow during the week. Bally's had laid of 35 employees with more to come through retirement incentives.

Posted on: 10:58 pm, September 25, 2008

Most of the employees are blaming the economy for the slow down. The Claridge could be the next to see areas closed during the week.

Posted on: 10:51 pm, yesterday
Was there this morning. Total Rewards was closed downstairs, Mountain Bar was open. Passed very few people walking to Gertie's. Went for a bagel and 9:30 and there was no line. If I counted 10 people in that part of the casino, that would be a high number.

Intheknow

September 28th, 2008, 06:07 AM

Zippy- I never said it was going downhill since 1976.
Jitny drivers utilize the park, I thought you said no one was ever
in the park.

The Casinos of today Borgota, Harrahs are the same old, same old but with pools and a spa and a couple more bars and restaurants. Do you marvel at their craftmanship? They are pre-fab, cheap.

As for trip advisor- There is a better chance of AC losing Casinos in the next two years than gaining any new ones.

Fabrizio

September 28th, 2008, 07:37 AM

Nexus: Those blank walls (a breeding ground for crime) have seriously added to AC crime rate.

As the author Bryant Simon (see earlier post) talks of "some of the loneliest, most desolate streets in America." If you don't think such environments seriously add to a cities crime rate, I have listed 2 other distinquished authors that write about the issue of Architecture/urban design and crime. Oh... I see... perhaps Atlantic City, of all places, is immune from the phenomena.

Furthermore: Your original statement was: "I absolutely disagree that the design of the casinos themselves has added to crime."

And yet in your post above you state: "I never disagreed that blank walls can add to criminal activity..."

I'm glad to see you are slowly coming around... but please Nexus, give us a break.

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AC employment: Down.

From the PressofAtlanticCity Friday, September 12, 2008:

Atlantic City near bottom in ranking of metro areas on economy

An annual list of the country's top 200 "best-performing" large metropolitan areas has Atlantic City near the bottom again. It slipped to No. 187 overall this year, down from No. 179 in 2007.

The Milken Institute, an economic think tank in Santa Monica, Calif., bases its ranking on job growth, wages and salaries, and high-tech sector growth. Atlantic City ranked near the bottom in each of the individual categories, finishing as low as No. 198 in one-year job growth between 2006 and 2007.

In that time, the Atlantic City-Hammonton area saw a decline of about 4,000 jobs, according to U.S. Department of Labor statistics.

The closing of the Sands Casino Hotel in November 2006 resulted in the loss of about 2,100 jobs.

"It's over such a long period of time that casino employment has stagnated, (and) it has begun to take its toll," economist Richard Perniciaro said.

Meanwhile, in an accompanying Milken Institute list of the top 124 "best-performing" small metro areas, the Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton area finished 110th, up from 118th in 2007.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/106/story/255559.html

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^ These are recent satististic, but apparently AC employment has been going down for quite some time. While the above article covers from 2006-2008, it is interesting to read excerpts from this article in Forbes that covers to 2004:

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(And no.... this title was NOT written by IntheKnow.... it was wrtten by Forbes)

Atlantic City Is Dangerous And Depraved

Atlantic City has been in a no-growth mode for a while now, and with casinos opening up all over, there does not seem to be much growth in the city's future, either.

The fairly good news for the seaside town is that gambling is up, according to the most recent full-year statistics published by the CCC. The "total casino win" in Atlantic City rose 7.6% between 2003 and 2004 to $4.8 billion, from $4.5 billion. But all of the increase was accounted for by a new hotel, the Borgata, a joint venture of Boyd Gaming and MGM Mirage.

Take out its $369.6 million increase in wins, and the city's win total would have taken a slight dip. The win in Trump's three casinos fell by about $9 million. Caesar's, Harrah's, Hilton and Bally's all fell by anywhere from 0.3% to 4.9%.

As usual, nearly three-quarters (74%) of the win was from slot machines--the favored game of lower-rent gamblers.

Still, a gain is a gain, even if it was enjoyed mainly by just one of the dozen casinos (or entertainment resorts, if you prefer). But the idea behind Atlantic City wasn't to boost the take of a few hotels; it was to spur development and employment more generally.

This idea has been stopped in its tracks.

Even among the casinos, employment is declining. In 2000, the casinos employed 47,426. In 2004, the last year for which data are available, the number dipped to 45,501, the CCC says. It's likely that the casino employment total increased a bit with the opening of the Borgata, but overall it's been pretty flat.

The wider view is bleaker still. Employment overall in the city, after rising in the 1990s, has fallen from 164,100 in 2000 to 149,500 in 2004, a 9% drop, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Even what the bureau classifies as "leisure and hospitality" employment is down sharply, from 70,300 to 57,400.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/05/05/cx_da_0505topnews.html

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66nexus

September 28th, 2008, 09:41 AM

Nexus: Those blank walls (a breeding ground for crime) have seriously added to AC crime rate.

Furthermore: Your original statement was: "I absolutely disagree that the design of the casinos themselves has added to crime."

And yet in your post above you state: "I never disagreed that blank walls can add to criminal activity..."

I'm glad to see you are slowly coming around... but please Nexus, give us a break.

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I stand by my original statement. I said that the casino construct themselves did not add to crime, HOWEVER, I did NOT disagree that blank walls CAN add to crime. Read between the lines as I choose my words very carefully:

post #1548:

"...I never disagreed that surface lots/blank walls don't help breed crime, but I want to know how you came to the conclusion that it seriously added to AC's crime."

Don't say give 'us' a break, this is you and I here on this one.

I still disagree that the walls seriously added to AC's crime, the poverty-stricken populace did, in which you already ceded.

Sorry, I am not coming around.

Fabrizio

September 28th, 2008, 09:51 AM

"I said that the casino construct themselves did not add to crime, HOWEVER, I did NOT disagree that blank walls CAN add to crime."

Keep trying.

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There are no small business owners, entrepreneurs, young professionals, middle class families, etc...living in the city with their families opening stores, restaurants, amusements, etc...

An interesting article about Brighton England in the NYTimes. 30 years ago this city was a dump.... but fortunately it's great places were not torn down. I believe AC could have taken this turn... if it's beautiful old places were still standing. Brighton today:

36 Hours in Brighton, England

NOT long ago, the English port town of Brighton was considered louche and seedy, a has-been resort with crumbling piers and weathered hotels for so-called dirty weekends. But with cosmopolitan London just an hour away, it was a matter of time before this funky town regained its color. In recent years, chic Londoners have rediscovered Brighton’s lanes and Regency-style buildings, turning it into what’s now called “the gay capital of England." When the weekend rolls around, London’s media and design elites arrive in a caravan of Jaguars, check into boutique hotels and disappear into dance-till-dawn clubs. The scene is reminiscent of Miami Beach, except it is the chilly English Channel at the end of the boardwalk.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/travel/28hours.html?8dpc

Please take a look at these (The Steel Pier and the Blenhiem?):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/supercamel/1303783526/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twocrabs/94996069/in/set-72057594058602438/

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66nexus

September 28th, 2008, 10:43 AM

"I said that the casino construct themselves did not add to crime, HOWEVER, I did NOT disagree that blank walls CAN add to crime."

Keep trying.

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Translation: you have nothing.

seatbelts, CAN save lives...they don't always do. Bullet-proof vests CAN bluff bullets, it doesn't always happen. Blank walls CAN add to crime (even though you said it 'seriously' did)...in AC's case you don't have my vote on that one...oh but of course...outside the 'traditionally high-crime areas'

Fabrizio

September 28th, 2008, 10:49 AM

Yes, AC for some strange reason, is immune from the phenomena. Blank walled streets can add to crime, but in AC for some miraculous reason they do not.

Good one.

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What waits for AtlanticCity if McCain wins? Excepts from an article in todays NYTimes:

McCain and Team Have Many Ties to Gambling Industry

Senator John McCain was on a roll. In a room reserved for high-stakes gamblers at the Foxwoods Resort Casino in Connecticut, he tossed $100 chips around a hot craps table.

The visit had been arranged by the lobbyist, Scott Reed, who works for the Mashantucket Pequot, a tribe that has contributed heavily to Mr. McCain’s campaigns and built Foxwoods into the world’s second-largest casino.

“One of the founding fathers of Indian gaming” is what Steven Light, a University of North Dakota professor and a leading Indian gambling expert, called Mr. McCain.

When rules being considered by Congress threatened a California tribe’s planned casino in 2005, Mr. McCain helped spare the tribe. Its lobbyist, who had no prior experience in the gambling industry, had a nearly 20-year friendship with Mr. McCain.

As public opposition to tribal casinos has grown in recent years, Mr. McCain has distanced himself from Indian gambling, Congressional and American Indian officials said.

But he has rarely wavered in his loyalty to Las Vegas, where he counts casino executives among his close friends and most prolific fund-raisers. “Beyond just his support for gaming, Nevada supports John McCain because he’s one of us, a Westerner at heart,” said Sig Rogich, a Nevada Republican kingmaker who raised nearly $2 million for Mr. McCain at an event at his home in June.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/us/politics/28gambling-web.html?hp

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Intheknow

September 28th, 2008, 11:38 AM

Personal political views or religion should not be discussed in bars or forums- they usually lead to fist fights.

As for the blank walls, as I've stated before, AC should have a mural arts program for the children of this city. It helps the kids and the city. It may not help with crime but at least it will look better.

I have noticed a steep decline of this City in the past two years, less civic activities, dirtier etc. I don't know why but things are getting worse.

Intheknow

September 28th, 2008, 03:42 PM

Fabrizio, is that second photo in England new construction? If any industry could afford unique construction it is the Casino industry, well, and the oil industry.

The Casinos are still under achieving in their building architecture.

66nexus

September 28th, 2008, 08:04 PM

Yes, AC for some strange reason, is immune from the phenomena. Blank walled streets can add to crime, but in AC for some miraculous reason they do not.

Good one.

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Yep, that's why the Gateway complex in Newark is such a 'high-crime' area...(or even various mid/high-rise office parks throughout the country)

Perhaps if they build motels crime will go away.

pianoman11686

September 28th, 2008, 09:02 PM

Nexus: if you haven't gotten Fabrizio to take back something he said after more than 2 or 3 back-and-forths, you won't ever get him to do it.

Fabrizio: I'm sorry to say I strongly disagree with your assertion that blank walls seriously added to crime in Atlantic City. I don't fully understand why, but you have a penchant for blaming real urban problems on poor design. In many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause, of a problem. An urban environment that encourages the type of design you lament is by its nature dysfunctional; the problem only gets worse when government gets involved and tries to guide new development - as in New Jersey's odd choice to restrict gambling to fully-enclosed casino resorts that were not envisioned as meaningful attempts at engaging urban fabric and urban life.

I'm also mystified at your continued belief that Atlantic City was a "healthy city" going all the way up to 1976, when the first large-scale demolitions began and bits of the city became replaced by new monstrosities. While I wasn't alive at the time, I know that the place had already been in long decline, in population and, accordingly, in investment. Population data confirms this:

1900 27,838 113.2%
1910 46,150 65.8%
1920 50,707 9.9%
1930 66,198 30.6%
1940 64,094 −3.2%
1950 61,657 −3.8%
1960 59,544 −3.4%
1970 47,859 −19.6%
1980 40,199 −16%
1990 37,986 −5.5%
2000 40,517 6.7%
2007 39,684 −2.1%\

During the 1960s, 20% of the population fled, and in the 1970s, another 16% - for reasons often similar to what led to declines in many Northern cities that were formerly healthy environments for urban investment. These are startling declines - all before the new casinos were built - that undoubtedly made Atlantic City a more dangerous and less attractive place to live. There must have been literally thousands of abandoned homes.

So while you claim that the city was still a good place, worthy of investment, I'm tempted to believe your memory is seeing things through rose-colored glasses. Perhaps you were too young at the time to see the big picture; I don't know, I can only speculate. But it is clear to me that you are, yet again, blaming poor architectural design for serious urban problems that had already developed before the casinos arrived.

Instead of pouring so much blame on one aspect of Atlantic City's problems, it would be wise to consider what is so fundamentally wrong with a city that turned to casino gambling as its supposed savior. While I agree that casinos haven't helped Atlantic City return to its glory days, they have helped. At the least, they helped stem the population exodus by providing some level of hope for enough people to stick around, and not further deplete the tax base.

Fabrizio

September 28th, 2008, 10:19 PM

Fabrizio: I'm sorry to say I strongly disagree with your assertion that blank walls seriously added to crime in Atlantic City.

Fine. No problem there. I disagree with you too

I don't fully understand why, but you have a penchant for blaming real urban problems on poor design. In many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause, of a problem.

I agree that in many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause... but I also believe that urban problems are made worse by poor urban design. I've listed some reading material on the subject and will list more if you like. This is not some strange unheard of theory invented by me.

In many cases, poor design is a symptom, not a cause, of a problem. An urban environment that encourages the type of design you lament is by its nature dysfunctional...

On this I agree.

the problem only gets worse when government gets involved and tries to guide new development

If those guidlines are wrongheaded... certainly.

I'm also mystified at your continued belief that Atlantic City was a "healthy city" going all the way up to 1976

And I'm mystified that you think I've said AC was a "healthy city" before gambling in 1976. Never said that.... uh.. strawmanning Pianoman? What I have said, and have said over and over again, is that the city was in decline.

However I agree with many, including the authour Bryant Simon ("Boardwalk of Dreams: Atlantic City and the Fate of Urban America") that the city is today, in many ways, worse off than it was in the mid-1970s.

-----------------

Re: population data: Nearly ALL American cities were losing population between 1950 and 1980. Point out ONE that was not. Why should AC have been different in this? But even so... AC's population today is LESS than it was in 1976. And after an upswing, AC population has been going down for the last 8 years. Quite incredible for a city after 30 years of casino development.

So while you claim that the city was still a good place, worthy of investment

LOL... well it was a good place worthy of investment... that's why we all wanted casino gambling, AC was worthy of investment.

I'm tempted to believe your memory is seeing things through rose-colored glasses. Perhaps you were too young at the time to see the big picture; I don't know, I can only speculate. But it is clear to me that you are, yet again, blaming poor architectural design for serious urban problems that had already developed before the casinos arrived.

Besides the design of the casinos adding to the city's urban problems, let me also point out this from "Boardwalk of Dreams":

--- "Speculators and casino corporations bought houses in those districts, tore them down, and built parking lots. During the early 1980s, bulldozers leveled one third of the city's homes. Local efforts to resist such change proved futile and residents who refused to sell found that their quality of life quickly deteriorated."

---"Crime rose by eighty percent."

--- "Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets." increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

While I agree that casinos haven't helped Atlantic City return to its glory days, they have helped. At the least, they helped stem the population exodus by providing some level of hope for enough people to stick around, and not further deplete the tax base.

As I mentioned in earlier post the real bright spot of casino gambling (of which I was and am still in favour of) is the employment and opportunity it has given to thousands. But even so, total population has DECREASED from 1976 to 2007. But even with an upswing in the 90's, the population has been going down for the last 8 years.

But what is sooooo incredible about your post is this:

A while ago ACplayer posted a pic of Atlantic City's Pacific Avenue dated 1968. You responded:

Wow, it really looked like a city back then! A real place, postcard-worthy. Last time I was there, it looked like a few big hotels in the middle of an abandoned ghost town.

So let's see... 1968... 6 years before the first referendum for casino gambling, and AC at Pacific Avenue looks like "a city", "A real place", "postcard-worthy" and yet 30 years after casino gambling and AC looks like (with the exception of a few big hotels) an abandoned ghost town!

Well, we agree on that one.

I was in Atlantic City two summers ago for a day trip. Hadn't been there since I was a little kid, so I didn't really know what to expect. The city itself was a dump.

But the majority of the boardwalk looked like it had once been nice.

So gee... Pianoman.... what are you saying?... the city looked WORSE today then when you were a kid? LOL...well, as I said, on this we agree.

BTW: when where you a kid... 1970's? 80's?

And I whole heartedly agree with you when you wrote:

I was in Atlantic City this past weekend for a daytrip. I had been planning to go spend most of my time in the Borgata anyway, but upon arriving I lost all desire to hang out in the Boardwalk area. It just doesn't look attractive. It looks outdated and in need of a major facelift. There's really no sense of place.

" If there's any hope for making Atlantic City itself a premier destination, one would expect to integrate newer hotels like the Borgata into (what's left of) the urban fabric. As it stands now, most visitors just drive right off the freeway, into the parking garage, and stay inside the Borgata until they're ready to leave. The city loses out. How can this be fixed?

Side note: I spent the earlier part of the day visiting Cape May, and the place looked great - well-maintained, busy, vibrant.

^ It sould be noted that in 1976 when the faded resort that was AC legalized casino gambling, the faded resort that was CapeMay insitituted it's Cape May Historic District. And I agree with you about how great it looks.... gee maybe that's what can happen when, government gets involved and tries to guide new development "

http://www.capemaytimes.com/history/victorian.htm

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giselehaslice

September 28th, 2008, 10:26 PM

Pianoman writes: "Fabrizio: I'm sorry to say I strongly disagree with your assertion that blank walls seriously added to crime in Atlantic City.

--- Fine. No problem there. I disagree with you too

You say that I look immature? I would be appalled if I were you.

As for ONE place that did not loose population between 1950 and 1970, Phoenix.

And "CapeMay" is actually two words, just in case you were not sure.

pianoman11686

September 28th, 2008, 11:58 PM

No, I believe however that urban problems are made worse by poor urban design. I've listed some reading material on the subject and will list more if you like.

I've read some of them, including Death and Life. I found little to disagree with.

On this I agree.

Good.

If those guidlines are wrongheaded... certainly.

Great. We're getting somewhere.

And I'm mystified that you think I've said AC was a "healthy city" before gambling in 1976. Never said that.... uh.. strawmanning Pianoman? What I have said is that the city was in decline.

You've said a lot of things. I've followed this thread for several weeks now, and it seems clear to me that you thought it was still a good place to live and visit, right up until the casinos started moving in. So, while I've looked back through some of your posts, I found one that seemed to summarize everything pretty well (post 1238):

I think it's time to clear up a couple of myths about AC that I keep hearing over and over on this thread about the decline of Atlantic City.

I lived in AC in 1971/72 and then back again in 74/75. I was young, but remember the experience quite well.

By 1974 the city was run-down, the Inlet was a place you didn't hang out, but there was really very little street crime. It was not Philadelphia. You could walk all over the place at all hours. I was young, very white... an obvious target, but I never remember being afraid. In the city proper there were no homeless and no open drug dealing and so forth. The city was run-down but still very pleasant.

In '74 we lived on Providence Avenue which was one of the most beautiful blocks in the city. The whole area was beautiful and beautifully maintained. I remember walks to the beach and all of those motels there were full of vacationers and perfectly fine.

Atlantic Avenue still had very nice businesses. The businesses on the 1700 block all had matching canopies. There were still movie theatres and even 2 movie theatres operating on the boardwalk. You have to remember: by this time, NY's TimesSquare was pretty squalid with rows of porn theatres... AC's Boardwalk was squeaky clean in comparison. AC was seedy, but Philadelphia was down right scary.

Convention hall still attracted top-notch conventions including the annual American Medical Association's convention. The grand hotels were still operating: the Dennis, Shelburne, Marlbourough Blenheim, Claridge, Chalfonte-Haddon Hall. Was there any other city in the US with such a group of hotels that were still in operation?

AC was frayed, tired, the inlet was a ghetto... "Pauline's Prarie" was still an undeveloped gaping hole up-town, but it was still a "normal" town with thousands of tourists. At that time, there was a push for casino gambling. Gambling was going to give back some of the lost luster. Most, in their ignorance, really imagined the grand old hotels with casinos in them. Most thought that Atlantic Avenue would become a fabulous shopping street again. You would hear the words "MonteCarlo".

As I remember it, AC's real decline started after the legalization of gambling. It was then that the speculation started. Buildings razed. People bought out of their homes etc. It's in that stretch of the late 70's, while casinos were being built, that AC became a series of empty lots and buildings left to rot.

So there, it sounds like you're saying it wasn't in decline until...the casinos came? Are you saying you disagree with what you wrote above?

However I agree with many, including the authour Bryant Simon ("Boardwalk of Dreams: Atlantic City and the Fate of Urban America") that the city is in many ways worse off than it was in the mid-1970s.

In some ways it is, in some ways it isn't. Population statistics seem to indicate the latter. In my mind, I keep thinking about what would've happened had Atlantic City not turned to gambling. How much further would its population decline? How much further would tourist visits decline? What would it end up leaning on to revive its economy?

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Re: population data: Nearly ALL American cities were losing population between 1950 and 1970. Point out ONE that was not. Why should AC have been different in this?

Are you kidding, Fabrizio? No, really...is this a joke? How about EVERY SINGLE city in the south? Honestly, tell me: do you know anything about American demographic trends post World War 2? About white flight? About the effect of interstate highway construction and air-conditioning on population shifts in the Sunbelt? 7 of our 10 largest cities are either in California, Texas, or Arizona. In 1950, only Los Angeles was on that list.

I still can't believe you tried to make that argument.

LOL... well it was a good place worthy of investment... that's why we all wanted casino gambling, AC was worthy of investment.

Now you're really not getting it. Why would a place worthy of investment prompt its state to change its laws to allow gambling there? Why does a worthy place like that turn to casinos as its supposed panacea? I'll tell you: a place that knows it's in serious decline and fears that, without doing something drastic, will slowly die out until it vanishes into obscurity.

Besides the design of the casinos adding to the city's urban problems, let me also point out this from "Boardwalk of Dreams":

--- "Speculators and casino corporations bought houses in those districts, tore them down, and built parking lots. During the early 1980s, bulldozers leveled one third of the city's homes. Local efforts to resist such change proved futile and residents who refused to sell found that their quality of life quickly deteriorated."

Why do you think that happened? Look at the population numbers: the thousands that fled Atlantic City in the 60s and 70s must have left thousands of empty homes, and prices must have plummeted. Again, you're citing a cause, as opposed to a symptom.

---"Crime rose by eighty percent."

Of course it did. It rose in a lot of Northern cities - most, in fact. New York's crime rate was off the charts in the 80s compared with the 60s.

--- "Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets." increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

Again, of course that's what happened. Thousands of people left: don't you think that meant businesses would be left behind too with no one to run them? You need people to run butcher shops, no?

As I mentioned in earlier post the real bright spot of casino gambling (of which I was and am still in favour of) is the employment and opportunity it has given to thousands. But even so, population has DECREASED from 1976 to 2007. Can't you read statistics?

Can't you read statistics? Or are you joking again? First casino opened in Haddon Hall, which wasn't a brand new construction, in May 1978. It wasn't until the 1980s that the new ones opened for business. Have a look again, please:

1960 59,544 −3.4%
1970 47,859 −19.6%
1980 40,199 −16%

How did you miss this? The population was cut by a third in the two decades preceding the casinos' arrival. How many homes did it say were bulldozed? A third, right? I wonder why that was.

Also, between 1980 and today, the change is close to 0%. Duh?

But what is sooooo incredible about your post is this:

A while ago ACplayer posted a pic of Atlantic City's Pacific Avenue dated 1968 as well as other pics from the 60's. On seeing those pics you responded:
So gee... Pianoman.... what are you saying?... the city looked WORSE today then when you were a kid? LOL...well, on this we agree. BTW: when where you a kid... 1970's? 80's?

How is it incredible? Clearly, by 1968, the decline hadn't been reflected on a lot of the city yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore. And of course it looks worse today than it did back then. It hadn't gone through its decline yet!

And I whole heartedly agree with you when you wrote:
^ It sould be noted that in 1976 when the faded resort that was AC legalized casino gambling, the faded resort that was CapeMay insitituted it's Cape May Historic District. And I agree with you about how great it looks.... gee maybe that's what happens when, government gets involved and tries to guide new development "

I can't say with certainty that Atlantic City would have remained as popular a tourist destination as it had been earlier in the century if it had implemented historic districting at large. Would the tourist numbers have sustained those huge hotels after the explosion in jetsetting vacation? I don't know, but it's pretty clear to me that, at the least, thousands of homes still would have been vacant unless a way to stop the population decline was found.

Let's not turn this into an anti-landmarking debate. I agree that those grand old hotels were worthy of preservation and were stunning architecturally. I just don't know if enough people would still have visited Atlantic City to sustain the population it once had, and still operate those hotels at a profit. Because that's what casino gambling was about: getting the hotels to realize enough of a profit to stay in business despite the various disadvantages that Atlantic City has as a beach resort.

And that's what I go back to - the decision to bet Atlantic City's future on the concept of bringing in casinos to the hotels. Who made the decision? The politicians. So that's why I'm again puzzled when you say something like this:

"gee maybe that's what happens when, [B]government gets involved and tries to guide new development"

as if to say it was because of a lack of government involvement that Atlantic City declined into the state it is in today. It was precisely the opposite. Government put faith in - and decided - that legal gambling would bring Atlantic City back to its heyday. It most obviously didn't, and I know you agree - but for some reason can't agree with the simple idea that this was the government's own doing.

You're right that it worked in Cape May. And it worked in a handful of other places too, that managed to get preservation laws enacted and historic districts formed. But there's only a handful of these places in all of America, while there are many, many other cities that failed to preserve their architectural history while they went into prolonged decline. Atlantic City is just one of those many cities.

Fabrizio

September 29th, 2008, 12:42 AM

I should have stated about population loss : AC's population loss was similair to other Northern cities.

And while many of those cities have gained population since then.. or have an upswing... AC has been losing population for the last 8 years and today still has less population then the 1970's.

The population losses that you note in the 60's were the Inlet, the area east of Arctic, and Paulines Praire...(the city was basically empty from Pennsylvania Avenue to the Inlet) but Chelsea, Chelsea Heights, Venice Park, BungalowPark, DuckTown, and the center of town were dense with homes and people. Remember that many were summer vaction homes of Philadelphians.

Why don't YOU tell us about these neighborhoods in the 1970's? What were they like.... what were your experiences there?

You must also take into take into consideration the Hurricanes of 1944 and 1962 that had a devastating effect on the city and on people's choice to live there.

http://frank.redpin.com/~urbex/atlanticcity.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/2686833451_4da5924ae3.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2686833319_44f7513f6f.jpg?v=0

"Storm of the Century" 1962: "It is listed as one of the ten worst storms to have hit anywhere in the United States in the 20th century. It did $80 mil. damage in 1962 dollars, in New Jersey alone, destroying 45,000 homes."

http://easyliving.shorenewsnow.com/2008/03/08/the-perfect-storm-of-the-century-march-1962.aspx

http://www.hurricanenow.com/stories/0609161300.php

-----------------------

And if it took a pounding from those hurricanes, note this from Boardwalk of Dreams about what happened AFTER casino gambling came in and the speculation started: "Pawn shops replaced corner groceries. The last vestiges of the "walking city" disappeared. Today, Simon laments, "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops...are all gone." In their place, is a "flat, desolate lunar landscape of streets." increasingly empty except for the luckless and dispossessed."

About my post about AC 1970's (1974): I repeat over and over again about the problems and the decline of the city, the city was suffering as were many at the time... but it was, as you agree, still "a real city"... I remember well the city that the author describes above still there in 1974: "the old corner stores, friendly taverns, jazz clubs, Jewish delis, fresh fruit stands, and butcher shops... " and those neighborhoods were quite wonderful. It's widespread slide, or perhaps I should have originally said "accelerated" slide started after 1976 when speculation started because of gambling and the city was basically leveled and ceased to be a "real city" and now "looks like a ghost town" as you also noted.

You write: "it seems clear to me that you thought it was still a good place to live and visit, right up until the casinos started moving in."

Sure do. And so did thosands who came there to enjoy the beach, the city, the Piers, and on conventions. Look, you tell me: who was staying at the Shelburne, the Dennis, the Claridge, the Marlbourough, the Blenheim, the HaddonHall? These were huge hotels with big staffs to pay, the maintenance, the upkeep. These hotels were open and operating in 1976 and they were in fine condition.... not getting the amount of vacationers they once did but they were not seedy or run-down. Who was staying at them and why? They were not welfare hotels... The city was indeed still a good place to visit. It was losing business. Miami beckoned. But someone was staying at those hotels.... and someone was paying the millions to keep them operating and looking good. If there had not been business, why in the world would their operators throw money away keeping them open?

As for: "Why would a place worthy of investment prompt its state to change its laws to allow gambling there? "

Because as I stated, "gambling was going to give back some of the lost luster"... and the city was worthy of investment: It still had crowds, a huge convention hall and important conventions, huge hotels, the piers were stll operating, it was in decline, frayed, but in relatively good shape... it had all of the set pieces in place for a comeback (see ACPlayers photos from the era) ... it was not Asbury Park. The idea of gambling fit like a glove. The city was worthy of investment, and gambling would provide plenty of it.

Note too that many in NY and Philadelphia would like to see gambling come to their cities as well.

Also you keep saying: "the decision to bet Atlantic City's future on the concept of bringing in casinos to the hotels. Who made the decision? The politicians."

Actually I believe it was local businessmen who got the idea going. And it was the populace who decided with a referendum.

As for: "Clearly, by 1968, the decline hadn't been reflected on a lot of the city yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore. And of course it looks worse today than it did back then. It hadn't gone through its decline yet!"

The decline by 1968 certainly could be seen in the inlet, Pauline's Prarie, etc... but not so much in the neighborhoods I mentioned. Actually, the first glimmers of the city's decline started in the late 1940's. But the wide-spread decline, started after gambling came in and speculation started. And that is what sparked this accelerated decline and the city part has never really recovered. Gambling which in 1976 was seen to be the shot in the arm, has left us 30 years later with what you descibe as a place that (outside of a few huge casinos) "looks like a ghost town" and as you've noted : with an even smaller population than before.

Thanks for pointing that out.

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So in the end points are those that I've always said: AC was certainly in decline by the 60's and 70's but pre-gaming AC was still a nice place to visit and vacation. Gambling was a great idea and we all believed it would bring the city back to it's hey-day. But gambling was poorly planned, poorly implemented. The speculation from it's inception in 1976 greatly accelerated the city's decline... in fact the brick-and-mortar city has never really recovered and in many ways it is worse off than it was in 1976. Gambling has provided jobs and oppurtunity. But I believe IMHO that the city's physical decline would not have been as great if gambling had not come in. I also feel that Historic District Landmarking (Chelsea, Ducktown) and asthetic codes should still be introduced.. and without them the city's physical appearance, out side of the casinos, will decline further. The city must require the Casinos to be active members of the urban fabric. Leaving everything up to the free market and crossed fingers will not work. Job number 1:

Get rid of those friggin' blank walls for starters because as so many experts have figured out: they seriously ADD to a city's crime rate.

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66nexus

September 29th, 2008, 11:16 AM

How is it incredible? Clearly, by 1968, the decline hadn't been reflected on a lot of the city yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore. And of course it looks worse today than it did back then. It hadn't gone through its decline yet!

These are key. I believe that with or without casinos Atlantic City, at any rate, would have fallen further than it's late 60's status before it would pick up again.

Fabrizio

September 29th, 2008, 12:02 PM

For me that phrase of Pianoman's is jibberish. First of all, the decline had been reflected to one degree or another on large swaths of the city.... exactly as decline was seen in most metro areas of the NorthEast by the late 60's: Philly, NYC... and so many towns and cities in-between. But AC, like those other towns, was (back then) a city of neighborhoods. As I mentioned Chelsea, Clesea Heights, DuckTown, Venice Park, the center of town east of Atlantic was still rather nice (Chelsea still quite spectacular). He says something about: "it usually takes at least a few years for buildings to deteriorate into visibly poor condition because no one's taking care of them anymore." Actually abandoned buildings were in the Inlet and west of Arctic...but in the neighborhoods I mention above.... there were no abandoned buildings...at least that was not the tone of those areas... things in those neighborhoods in AC were actually attractive. I lived there. I walked those streets. I have friends who lived there. We were all over town. It was a shock back then, to go to Philly to see the squallor in Center City... I remember being appaled visiting friends in NYC and finally moving there in 76.

The wholesale abandonment of those nice neighborhoods and the center of town, started after the speculation that began in 1976.

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66nexus

September 29th, 2008, 12:08 PM

I'm sure it was no doubt nice, but that was perhaps before white flight. And once middle-class residents left property values plummet and lower-income persons move in.

Fabrizio

September 29th, 2008, 12:19 PM

AC had white flight after 1964 when racial laws changed. Paulines Prarie was actually designed as a barrier to keep out blacks. When the laws changed in 64 THAT'S when whites began to move out of the neighborhods like the inlet that bordered them. Chesea was cushioned. The Italians kept their own neighborhod to themselves but the inlet and of course PP were changed forever and whites left. The storm of '62 also devestated the Nothern end of AC and people left because of that too. It was the second time in nearly 20 years that the boardwalk had to be replaced and homes torn down (remember they were mostly wooden.) The 60's saw the triple whammy of the 64 racial laws, the 62 hurricane, and cheap air fare. But AC still attracted great crowds: the grand old hotels were still there, the Steel Pier had the greatest pop acts playing there all through the 60's, The Beatles played Convention Hall on their first trip to the US ( just to show you how important AC still was on a national level), The 64 Democratic Convention, The Shriners, The American Medical Association still had their conventions. "Summertime on the Pier" was telecast live all over Philly and the Delaware Valley every Sunday afternoon. And believe it or not.... the Miss America Pagent was still, for a few years there, the higest rated show on Television... and sponsored by Oldsmobile.

AC was not Newark.

But AC a decade later had ANOTHER cause for white flight and it had nothing to do with race and IMHO in the end it was much more devestating: people we