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View Full Version : Male/female role reversal results in courthouse killings!



johnwk
March 11th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Atlanta Judge, 2 Others Killed in Courthouse Shooting (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=agrtVy8UmyCI&refer=us)


This is what happens when you have a female doing a man’s job. This is what happens when you drop physical standards in the recruitment of law enforcement officers and allow the weaker sex to playact the role of a man. But this playacting is not limited to law enforcement, it is an infestation in the fire fighting services as well and it has resulted in many calamities in which the element of the weaker sex goes unreported because of political correctness and a fear of police and fire dept. personnel to speak out and lay blame where it ought to be…women allowed to playact as men.

ZippyTheChimp
March 12th, 2005, 10:02 AM
My nom de plume notwithstanding, someone here actually walks on his knuckles.

johnwk
March 12th, 2005, 10:46 AM
My nom de plume notwithstanding, someone here actually walks on his knuckles.

Zippy,

I was going through FD training in Maryland in the 1970’s when instructors were verbally told to lower certain standards, which were then later reflected in newly updated SOP manuals. I can’t speak for the PD but a very close friend of my was in the NYPD and he went through training about the same time. I remember him telling me a number of standards were lowered to allow more female recruits in and meet certain quotas.

I also have another very close friend who now is retired here in Florida, who was originally with the FD, and later joined the U.S. Capitol Police. He too was upset about physical standards being lowered for women, and not because of sexist reasons.

Here in Florida, unless I have been lied to by a state trooper, the height/weight requirements for State Troopers was lowered in the 1980’s.

In any event, I don’t think the Los Angeles Chief Of Police is lying. I might add, before I knew any standards had been lowered and there were female recruits in my class, I was one of the few recruits who maintained if “they”, meaning female recruits, can meet the physical requirements, what’s the big deal?


An Exclusive Interview With The Los Angeles Chief Of Police On Problems Of Law Enforcement (http://www.jbs.org/visitor/campaigns/sylp/lapd/gates.htm)



Q. What about the inclusion of women as general-duty police officers?

A. The matter of women police officers should be well outside the area of affirmative action. It is an entirely different issue, very troublesome, and has not been resolved correctly anywhere in this country.

And remember that our department pioneered with the first women as police officers. There is no question that there are places and needs for women in law enforcement. We always had a very strong, viable, effective program for policewomen.

Q. When did that go wrong?
A. It started when the federal government got into it and decided everything had to be equal. We tried to be reasonable and said, "We don't mind treating men and women officers equally, but what we don't want to do is lower our standards just to hire more women officers, because we would also have to accept lower standards for the men."

We tried to resolve that issue in the courts but were unsuccessful. Every department in the nation has since caved in to the federal government's threat to withhold funds if they don't do as they are told. It is extortion. But every police department has lowered its physical standards in order to bring women into the police force.'

Q. And what is the result?

A. It has led to some serious adjustments in the way our cities are policed. You cannot continue to police in the same manner when you have individuals who lack the physical capability to do a complete job. That's where we are today.
About three months ago I was asked to lower the department's height requirement to five feet. In my judgment, police officers who are only five feet tall are not able to carry out the whole job of policing. To say otherwise is simply foolish.



We have a very real problem Zippy, and it's not about sexism, but rather, lowering standards!

JWK

TLOZ Link5
March 12th, 2005, 02:33 PM
If it were a 100-pound MALE officer guarding a 200-pound defendant, would there be such a scandal surrounding the death of His Honor?

normaldude
March 12th, 2005, 03:06 PM
This is what happens when you have a female doing a manís job. This is what happens when you drop physical standards in the recruitment of law enforcement officers and allow the weaker sex to playact the role of a man.

1) The average man might be stronger/faster than the average woman. But there are plenty of women who are stronger/faster than the average male law enforcement officer. I'm sure plenty of female athletes (decathaletes, sprinters, weight lifters) would blow away a lot of donut-eating male police officers in physical tests.

2) Here we have a different case, where the police have a suspect in custody at a police station. The suspect grabs the male police officer's gun, and kills 3 male police officers.


..According to Moore's own statement, he lunged at Officer Arnold Strickland, grabbing his .40-caliber Glock automatic and shot Strickland twice, once in the head. Officer James Crump heard the shots and came running. Moore met him in the hallway, and fired three shots into Crump, one of them in the head.

Moore kept walking down the hallway towards the door of the emergency dispatcher. There, he turned and fired five shots into Ace Mealer. Again, one of those shots was in the head. Along the way, Moore had grabbed a set of car keys. He went out the door to the parking lot, jumped into a police cruiser, and took off. It all took less than a minute, and three men were dead.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/04/60minutes/main678261.shtml


You might have a legitimate point that it's a bad idea to lower standards for police & fire departments. But you hurt your own case when you claim that it's a "man's job" and that women shouldn't be allowed to "playact the role of a man". I'm sure plenty of female athletes would disagree with you.

TLOZ Link5
March 12th, 2005, 08:15 PM
The fact stands that this was a 130-pound, 5-foot-something court officer who was outmatched, pound for pound of muscle, by a defendant who wasn't handcuffed or in prison garb. If she had been a man with the same height, weight and build, it's possible that the outcome would not have been any different. If she had been built like Marion Jones and/or had Schadenfrau's don't-take-no-bullshit disposition, the odds would no doubt have been in her favor.

This is a question of poor choice of guard, not poor choice of guard's gender.

johnwk
March 13th, 2005, 09:22 PM
You might have a legitimate point that it's a bad idea to lower standards for police & fire departments. But you hurt your own case when you claim that it's a "man's job" and that women shouldn't be allowed to "playact the role of a man". I'm sure plenty of female athletes would disagree with you.

Just trying to generate a needed discussion!

In any event, I thought the following would be of interest in this discussion.


The Quota Costs: Change Standards, And Quality Slips Across The Board (http://www.tsra.com/Lott43.htm).

There are a number of valid and common sense points in the article which ought to always be applied when adopting policy affecting the assigning of personnel hired under “diversity politics“. In other words, hiring on a basis to achieve “a more diverse” police and fire department personnel, ought not interfere with the placement of such personal once hired, which ought to be determined by rigid standards to insure an effective and efficient police and fire department.


JWK

ZippyTheChimp
March 14th, 2005, 09:30 AM
This is what happens when you have a female doing a manís job
This particular event had more to do with economics and procedure than gender. Unless handcuffed, someone under detention should never be under the control of only one law-enforcement officer. There should always be another officer (male or female) close by, but out of reach of the prisoner. A 6'1" 210 lb ex-football player trained in marshall arts would be a handful for anyone.

Schadenfrau
March 14th, 2005, 02:19 PM
You're absolutely right, JohnWK. If the male court officer, male judge and male immigration officer hadn't been playacting the role of a woman, they would have been able to overpower Nichols and not have been shot.

You've made many racist and homophobic comments on this board before. I'm glad to see that you've completed the troglodyte trifecta with sexism.

TLOZ Link5
March 14th, 2005, 08:05 PM
You're absolutely right, JohnWK. If the male court officer, male judge and male immigration officer hadn't been playacting the role of a woman, they would have been able to overpower Nichols and not have been shot.

You've made many racist and homophobic comments on this board before. I'm glad to see that you've completed the troglodyte trifecta with sexism.

I rest my case about the "don't-take-no-bullshit" attitude. Brian Nichols wouldn't have stood a chance against Schadenfrau.

johnwk
March 14th, 2005, 10:00 PM
This particular event had more to do with economics and procedure than gender. Unless handcuffed, someone under detention should never be under the control of only one law-enforcement officer. There should always be another officer (male or female) close by, but out of reach of the prisoner. A 6'1" 210 lb ex-football player trained in marshall arts would be a handful for anyone.


You won't get any argument from me on that Zippy, but, speaking from first hand experience, there are fire department personnel hired under standards which have been lowered for political reasons, who simply can not perform necessary fire-ground operations which were easily performed by those who met old physical standards, and this puts people’s lives in jeopardy.

In this jail break instance, the fault most likely lies with the procedure, and probably not so much with the person. But I can assure you that the lowering of standards to accommodate women in the police and fire services, without careful assignment based upon ability, and specifically bruit strength, has resulted in predictable and disastrous consequences and goes largely unreported. . . I know, I have personally witnessed two such instances, and was almost a victim in one instance while on duty.


JWK

TLOZ Link5
March 14th, 2005, 11:57 PM
The New York Times commented on the incident in today's paper:

March 14, 2005
Slayings Reveal Atlanta System's Safety Flaws
By SHAILA DEWAN and RICK LYMAN

ATLANTA, March 13 - Long before the carnage that Brian Nichols is accused of unleashing Friday at the Fulton County Courthouse - killing a judge, a court reporter and a sheriff's deputy - the jail where he was housed and the courtroom where the first shootings occurred were beset with security problems.

In one of the more considerable lapses, an inmate walked out of the Fulton County Jail last summer while an unauthorized rap video was being filmed.

Last week's rampage and the circumstances surrounding it have given rise to a chorus of criticism from judges, lawyers and law enforcement experts, who say that security in the courthouse, which is the responsibility of the Fulton County sheriff's office, has been too lax for too long.

"Procedurally, they don't know what they're doing," said Dennis Scheib, a criminal defense lawyer and former deputy sheriff who has cases in the courthouse regularly. He said he had watched lone deputies, their guns on their hips, enter cells with eight or nine inmates.

Mr. Nichols, 33, a 6-foot-1-inch, 210-pound former linebacker, was being escorted to court by Cynthia Hall, 51, a 5-foot-tall sheriff's deputy, when they stopped in a holding cell. After Deputy Hall removed Mr. Nichols's handcuffs, officials said, he overpowered her, took her gun and left her with a fractured skull.

Sheriff Myron Freeman, who took office only two months ago, has declined to answer questions about Deputy Hall's training or equipment, or about standard procedures in the courthouse. But Mr. Scheib said Deputy Hall appeared to have done nothing out of the ordinary.

"She did what other deputies did," Mr. Scheib said.

Robert J. Castelli, a former police instructor who teaches police procedure at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, said that if accounts of the episode are accurate, the sheriff's office violated most of the accepted guidelines for transporting prisoners.

Experts recommend that prisoners be shackled at the waist and ankles, with their handcuffs attached to the waist, Professor Castelli said. Officers should typically disarm themselves if they are going to be in close quarters with a prisoner, and an armed officer should observe from a distance. In addition, an officer should never be alone with a prisoner.

"It's one thing when an officer makes an arrest on the street; he or she has no choice," Professor Castelli said. Whether in the jail or on the street, one of the cardinal rules of law enforcement is the same: never let a civilian get your gun.

Mr. Nichols, a defendant on trial for rape, disarmed two sheriff's deputies and, the police say, used at least one of their guns to kill Judge Rowland W. Barnes and Julie Ann Brandau, a court stenographer. Sgt. Hoyt Teasley, a deputy sheriff, was shot and killed as Mr. Nichols fled the courthouse, the authorities said. Before being captured Saturday, the police said, Mr. Nichols also shot and killed an off-duty federal customs official, David Wilhelm.

One senior judge flatly blamed the sheriff's office, telling Atlanta's major daily newspaper, The Journal-Constitution, that it was "absolutely ludicrous" for an armed deputy to have been alone with a potentially violent and much larger prisoner.

"This whole thing just makes me so angry because Rowland didn't need to die and Julie didn't need to die," the judge, Philip Etheridge, told the newspaper.

In recent months, at least three defendants have fled the courthouse. And in 2003, a lawyer, John Turner, was beaten in a courtroom by his client.

On Saturday, Sheriff Freeman said he would form a task force to review the department's procedures.

Last month, the deputies' union met with Sheriff Freeman to present a number of recommendations, asking to establish patrols in the courthouse and to bring procedures up to date, said Sgt. Charles Rambo, the president of the union.

"There's a variety of sources that could be blamed, but the key thing is that we need to get solutions right away," Sergeant Rambo said.

The Atlanta police also came under criticism during the weekend over their response to the shootings. Officers spent hours looking for a green Honda Accord taken at gunpoint from a reporter in a downtown parking garage. Believing that Mr. Nichols had fled in the car, the police did not search the garage or guard the exits.

But late Friday night, the car was found in the garage on a different level. A security camera tape, viewed hours after the shooting, showed Mr. Nichols using a stairwell to leave the garage on foot.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

----------------------------------------------------

Again, this is not a question of gender, but of the incompetence of the sheriff's office. Whether or not Deputy Hall is a woman is irrelevant compared to the fact that she was left alone with Nichols when she was with him in the holding cell and uncuffed him. So this is really a matter of poor security procedures, which essentially stacks up to poor everything.

johnwk
March 15th, 2005, 09:04 AM
Again, this is not a question of gender, but of the incompetence of the sheriff's office. Whether or not Deputy Hall is a woman is irrelevant compared to the fact that she was left alone with Nichols when she was with him in the holding cell and uncuffed him. So this is really a matter of poor security procedures, which essentially stacks up to poor everything.

The above is not in dispute! Now, how about police and fire department personnel who have met lowered physical standards when recruited and assigned to tasks which they are not physically capable of performing, such as carrying a standpipe hose pack up a four story building in full running gear with a Scott bottle in the same amount of time male recruits were required to do before standards were lowered. . . females were allowed to take a five second break on the second floor when I was in basic training. A few years later, I recall the allotted time to reach the top and hook-up the hose to the stand pipe was increased, and men and female recruits were both required, thereafter, to meet the new lowered standard time allotment, which is what I am talking about. Five seconds on a fire ground can mean the difference between life and death!

Fact is, many standards in the police and fire departments have been lowered to accommodate female recruits and society pays the price. I thought this court killings episode would generate a needed discussion, not only about policy, but the lowering of standards, which just happens to be part of policy in our police and fire departments!


JWK

NYatKNIGHT
March 15th, 2005, 12:55 PM
I certainly hope if I ever need to be carried out of a burning building that the rescuer assigned to the task is physically capable.

Ninjahedge
March 15th, 2005, 03:49 PM
So lets just say this.

Your thread title and original post are bad.

You are saying, in effect "leave the women at home".

What SHOULD have been the push would have been a call NOT to lower any qualifying standards for any job requiring physical attributes/abilities.



I would go one step further. I say the test should be given (physical) every 5 years or so.

Just because you could run a half mile when you got let in does not mean you should not be able to when you are 30.

microserf
April 28th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I saw that 51 year old female sherrifs deputy on tv again last night (some show about the incident).. she was definitely NOT in the best physical shape, I think by ANYONES definition. Grossly overweight, she was basically a warm body w. a gun slung to her side, collecting a state funded paycheck. Easy pickings. That former Hewlett Packard IT professional turned that womans face into ground meat.

Standards should not be lowered, just to provide inclusion. After all the years and years of hard experience that emergency response services have collected, I'm sure there is a "true" baseline of height, weight, physical ability, etc. that has to be in place in order to provide the best service and response possible.

To see grossly overweight or physically underqualified people in these positions of dire need is apalling. Standards need to be set, physical requirement bars need to be raised. C'mon now, do we see sumo wrestlers clamoring about lowering the standards in order to compete on the olympic swim team???

Schadenfrau
April 28th, 2005, 05:38 PM
I don't think there's an overabundance of qualified people chomping at the bit to get into law enforcement. If you want a higher quality of applicant, you've got to raise the quality of life the job will provide.

J_Z
April 28th, 2005, 08:22 PM
...raise the quality of life...