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red screw
March 20th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Myself and my girlfriend are coming to the city for her birthday and I was wandering is it still a romantic idea to go for a horse and carriage ride through Central Park?? If so when is the best time,how much and how do I go about doing it(do I need to book)??

NewYorkYankee
March 20th, 2005, 07:52 PM
Of course it is, why wouldnt it be?

red screw
March 21st, 2005, 10:17 AM
I'm sure it will be nice but I'm just thinking when would be the best time and how much!!!????!!!!

Schadenfrau
March 21st, 2005, 11:48 AM
You don't need to make a reservation. The carriages all wait on Central Park South, near the Plaza. I'm not sure how much they cost.

Eugenius
March 21st, 2005, 12:34 PM
I believe the carriages will generally charge about $25-30 for a half-hour ride. As for the best time, early evening is when the park is probably the prettiest.

TLOZ Link5
March 21st, 2005, 05:01 PM
Just follow the smell of horse manure on Central Park South. :D

ZippyTheChimp
March 21st, 2005, 05:25 PM
Geez.

You just reminded me of a Seinfeld episode.
A wedding anniversary carriage ride.
A horse named Rusty.
A giant can of Beeferoni that Kramer feeds to Rusty.
Intestinal distress.
Romance over.

sannajagellonica
March 22nd, 2005, 10:14 AM
First read this article:

Carriage Horses: Cruelty is the Name of the Trade



"Hansom Horse's Tale of Whoa" - New York City, November 2, 2000 "A horse broke free from its carriage yesterday at Columbus Circle and hit at least one car as it galloped to Broadway - stopping morning traffic as people watched in horror...The horse went down about half-a-block before the harness broke, snaring one of his legs...The horse fell and slid down the street..."

"Bolting Carriage Horse Hurts 2" - New York City, August 6, 1999

"Carriage Horse Is Electrocuted on Street" -- New York City, January 1999 A horse pulling a carriage stepped on an electrically charged manhole cover and was shocked to death.

"Carriage Ride Turns into Bronco Bust" -- New York City, January 1998

"Runaway Horse Bashes Tourist...Carriage Horse Bolts and Injures Pedestrian" -- New York City, November 1997

"Hit and Run Accident Sends a Carriage Horse On Wild Rampage" -- Boston, 1996

"Two horses have been struck and killed by city buses, another by a car, and on one occasion a spooked horse jumped through a plate glass window" -- Atlanta (during the Olympics) July, 1996

"Carriage Horse's Tale of Whoa...Leg Stuck in Hay Shute For 2 Hours" -- New York City, 1996

"Hansom Horse Dies in Street" -- New York City, August 1996

"Carriage Horse Goes Out of Control, Collapses and Dies" -- New York City, September 1997

"Vigil Held for Horse Carriage Casualties" -- New York City, August 1994 (Two carriage horses collapsed and died on New York City streets within a 16-day period.)



The headlines speak for themselves. Every year, hundreds of carriage horses in the United States and around the world are used, abused and then slaughtered, if they are not killed on the streets first.


http://www.equineadvocates.com/gfx/3.jpg



According to Peggy Parker of the Carriage Horse Action Committee, the average working life of a carriage horse in New York City is less than four years, as compared to the mounted police horses who serve an average of 15 years before being retired.

While we can't be absolutely sure where all police horses go when they are through working, we do know that the majority of carriage horses go to slaughter.

Equine Advocates is committed to exposing the truth about the abuse, inhumane treatment and slaughter of urban carriage horses. Many cities, including London, Paris and Toronto, have banned carriage horses for humane reasons. Even Beijing has stopped it because of congestion problems. Crowded cities, especially New York, Philadelphia, and others, should prohibit it for both of those reasons. We hope through education, public awareness and legislation, the carriage horse trade will become a thing of the past

Greta Bunting is the author of a wonderful and informative book entitled, "The Horse: The Most Abused Domestic Animal". (order information) (http://www.equineadvocates.com/book.html)

Here are some excerpts from that book relating to the subject of carriage horses:

"An operator of a horse and carriage business likes to describe it as 'romantic.'

It is anything but that in today's crowded cities. Before the day of the automobile, privately owned carriage horses were for the owner's pleasure and use, and not as a means of making money. For this reason, the horses could expect better treatment than when used for commercial purposes.

Today they must work long hours in all weather, battle traffic, breathe exhaust fumes from motorized vehicles, and in general are not even adequately watered (not so many pools of urine!"), and some receive inadequate or poor feed and insufficient veterinary care.

Yet sometimes a horse is forced to pull a 9-passenger carriage, plus the driver and possibly someone on the seat beside him. In addition, as Holly Cheever, D.V.M. points out, 'Lameness and hoof deterioration are inevitable when a horse spends its life walking or jogging on the unnaturally concussive asphalt of city streets.'

Some horses are worked with split hooves and some have internal parasites. Deaths of horses in New York City have been a disgrace. One year, three horses died the same day, followed by a fourth shortly afterwards. Lame ones and blinds ones have been found working there. Carriage horse operators usually manage to persuade the city fathers that they are a 'tourist attraction'.

On the contrary, some tourists avoid cities that allow this business, and I have never heard of anyone going to a city just because it had horses and carriages! Out of ignorance of the abuse, tourists may ride in a carriage when there, but that is not their purpose in going...

Drivers love to get between the shafts and 'prove' that the carriages are not heavy. It would be interesting to see the condition of these clowns after pulling a carriage loaded with passengers all day long, in the broiling sun, without shade, proper rest or sufficient water.

Furthermore, an honest carriage driver will tell you that the problem is not so much the weight of the carriage, as the effort the horse has to make when it starts up again after a stop.

Considering the number of starts and stops it makes on a busy street, this effort is constant. So are the exhaust fumes, so is the pounding on the pavement. And so, many times, is the heat or the cold

...and in the end there are no green pastures for carriage horses -- only the slaughterhouse.

Yet the world does nothing to stop the abuse. Commercial horse and carriage operations should be banned. Period."

© Greta Bunting 1997 All rights reserved.

For more information (http://www.equineadvocates.com/book.html) on how to obtain a copy of her book.

MagnumPI
March 22nd, 2005, 12:19 PM
The death of 7 horses in 10 years in comparison with hundreds of bulls sacrificed every day in summer in Spain, France and south america or thousands of calves slaughtered every day for eat a good steak is totally insignificant and incomparable.


I´ll continue seeing a romantic ride and no a cruel ride.

Enjoy the ride with your girlfriend, red screw!

red screw
March 22nd, 2005, 02:02 PM
SORRY I ASKED SANNAJAGELLONICA !!!!!!!!!!
Cheers Magnum,hopefully it'll be a good one all round.What other romantic things are there to do??I was thinking of doing the Empire State Building at night too.

Jasonik
March 22nd, 2005, 02:30 PM
[LatelineNews: 2004-11-27] NEW YORK - A man jumped to his death Friday from the 86th-floor observation deck at the Empire State Building, one of Manhattan's busiest tourist destinations, police said. The apparent suicide forced police to briefly close the landmark on Fifth Avenue to tourists in New York for the holiday weekend.

The man apparently climbed over a security fence that encloses the observation deck before leaping off. He hit a landing on the sixth floor, where he died instantly, police said.

No identification was found on his body.

At least 31 other people have committed suicide at the Empire State Building since it opened in 1931. More than 3.8 million people visit the tourist attraction each year, according to the building's Web site.

It is 1,454 feet to the top of the Empire State Building's lightning rod.

Schadenfrau
March 22nd, 2005, 02:35 PM
RedScrew, the row boats in Central Park are quite romantic, as well.

sannajagellonica
March 23rd, 2005, 05:32 AM
alright!
First of all, what´s wrong with you guys? :) Can´t I say openly what I think. I think it´s the cultural differences. Here no one would have freaked out for that article put in the thread like this... and we don´t even mean to be rude ;)

I feel sorry for every used animal in the world and I would never pay for it.

what about skating in the wollmann rink.
Wollman hosts skaters day and night. But nighttime is a New York City moment. Music plays across the ice as skaters find their own rhythm circling the rink. A moon is a plus, but not required since the ice itself gives off a silver sheen.

Cheers!

sannajagellonica
March 23rd, 2005, 05:38 AM
magnum, is it really about the deaths??

MagnumPI
March 23rd, 2005, 08:18 AM
sannajagellonica, first of all please excuse for being maybe so rude. Sorry.

I only mean to say that a life of a horse in New York City isn't so cruel.

Actually i don´t like even go to the zoo and see the sad faces of the animals in cages!:(

Skating in the wollmann rink or row boats could be the best options.:)

Cheers!

Edward
March 23rd, 2005, 12:27 PM
First of all, what´s wrong with you guys? :) Can´t I say openly what I think. I think it´s the cultural differences.
It is not cultural differences - your posting is not on topic. The horse-drawn carriages is hardly a poster child of animal cruelty.



As to the topic of the thread, see Wired New York page Horse-Drawn Carriage Rides (http://www.wirednewyork.com/parks/central_park/carriage_rides.htm)

In my opinion the ride is more touristy than romantic thing to do.


http://www.wirednewyork.com/parks/central_park/carriage_rides/carriage_rides_christo.jpg (http://www.wirednewyork.com/parks/central_park/carriage_rides.htm)

ZippyTheChimp
March 23rd, 2005, 12:52 PM
Romance requires relative solitude, so I think a carriage ride would be most romantic on a damp, maybe drizzly day. On a warm Sunday afternoon, you're just part of someone else's photo-op.

Rowboat on the Lake - that's romantic.

sannajagellonica
March 23rd, 2005, 01:37 PM
:) At least i gave something to think about... i hope...

I´ve been all my life with horses and I could give you two hour lecture what is bad and what is good for horses. But I won`t because no one is interested and because english isn`t my mother tongue :D

Edward
March 23rd, 2005, 02:10 PM
... I´ve been all my life with horses and I could give you two hour lecture what is bad and what is good for horses. You can start a new thread in Anything Goes and see whether that generates any interest.

sannajagellonica
March 24th, 2005, 05:51 AM
maybe not ;)

red screw
March 24th, 2005, 06:56 PM
Ta for all your guidance I can't wait for our trip and I'm sure whatever we do we we'll have a great time!!!http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gifhttp://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

ZippyTheChimp
December 8th, 2005, 08:17 AM
http://newyorkmetro.com/index.htm

Intelligencer

Hansom Cabbies Turn Ugly

Horsemen try to give pedicabs the boot.

By Geoffrey Gray (http://newyorkmetro.com/nymag/author_200)

A few horse-drawn-carriage owners are underwriting a controversial campaign to ban their human-powered rivals—pedicabs—from midtown. Lobbyist Thomas McMahon, former chief counsel to the City Council, is getting $2,000 a month to represent three carriage owners. He argues that the pedicab industry is “like the Wild Wild West” since it’s not regulated, unlike hansom cabs and taxis (the owners of which have also hired lobbyists to hobble pedicabs). McMahon’s former City Council colleague Christine Quinn has proposed a bill banning pedicabs from 30th to 65th Streets. “This whole thing is about respect,” says Arty Nichols, who owns a pedicab fleet as well as a carriage, and favors pedicab regulation. He says the owners who hired McMahon were set off by a curb-space dispute outside Tavern on the Green over the summer. “Carriages are a New York institution. The pedicabs, they’re the fresh new kids on the block.”

brianac
March 28th, 2008, 04:25 AM
Carriage Horses Are Healthy, New Report Says

By DAVID POMERANTZ
Special to the Sun
March 27, 2008

The horses that draw carriages filled with tourists and couples through Central Park (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Central+Park) are healthy and well-cared-for, according to a new report by a Cornell University (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Cornell+University) veterinarian that contradicts complaints from animal rights activists.

The horses have been the subject of dispute in recent months, as a City Council member has proposed legislation to ban the horse-drawn carriages, and a storage company is planning an advertising campaign to draw attention to what it feels amounts to animal abuse.

The veterinarian who performed the report, John Lowe (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=John+Lowe), was commissioned by the Horse and Carriage Association (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Carriage+Association) to review procedures and observe the horses at five stables. He spent March 12 examining the horses and their living conditions.

"The general condition of the horses was excellent," Dr. Lowe wrote in the report.

Animal rights activists, led by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=PETA), have led a campaign against the horse-drawn carriage industry, saying the horses inhale exhaust and do not have enough access to drinking water, among other complaints.

Council Member Tony Avella (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Tony+Avella) proposed legislation in December to ban the industry, though Mayor Bloomberg (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Michael+Bloomberg) and Speaker Christine Quinn (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Christine+Quinn) have not supported it. Manhattan (http://www2.nysun.com/related_results.php?term=Manhattan) Mini Storage is soon unveiling an advertising campaign that asks customers to donate money to the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages, a group lobbying against the industry.

Mr. Avella said he did not believe the study's findings. "The carriage horse industry will say anything, will do anything. I don't trust anything they say based on what I've heard and seen. They hired somebody," he said in an interview.

Copyright 2008 The New York Sun.

tdp
March 29th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Red Screw, try these:

Top Of The Rock at twighlight - a must do, if you want romance or not!
A Circle Line twighlight cruise.
A simple morning or afternoon stroll in Central Park.
A Sunday morning wander around Greenwich Village (you'll be surprised at how quiet it is).
A walk across Brooklyn Bridge.

A meal in Ellen's Stardust Diner - I'm sure that the singing wait staff will be more than happy to serenage your girlfriend with a special request.

You seemed to touch a nerve regarding the carriage ride - but many people try it and almost all of them pass off without incident!

Enjoy your trip!

brianac
March 29th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Am I in a time warp or something.

Red Screw ?????? 2005

ZippyTheChimp
March 29th, 2008, 05:50 PM
:)

The hazard of dredging up old threads; people don't always notice the date.

BTW, nice search finding the topic.

tdp
March 30th, 2008, 12:49 PM
Am I in a time warp or something.

My mistake Brian.:o
I saw your post & then glanced at Red Screw's initial entry (which WAS in March!!!)

...I wonder if he had that carriage ride...???

brianac
March 30th, 2008, 12:58 PM
No problem tdp, it is something we have all done at some time or other.

I'm sure some visitor in the near future will take advantage of your excellent suggestions.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z245/brianaclift/Central%20Park/js1024_Pictures_from_small_card_-5.jpg

brianac
April 4th, 2008, 04:29 AM
Battling to Retain a Touch of the 19th Century

By ROBIN FINN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/f/robin_finn/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: April 4, 2008

FOLLOW the faint odor of all things equine to the double set of garage doors at 522 West 45th Street. Peek into the dim, shivery insides of a decommissioned firehouse reborn as Shamrock Stables, one of five home bases to New York City’s historic but endangered horse-and-carriage trade. The danger faced by these 220 urban beasts of burden and the 293 drivers licensed to pilot their carriages? Pink slips from the city.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/04/nyregion/04lives-650.jpgSuzanne DeChillo/The New York Times
Ian McKeever at Shramrock Stables

A disparate coalition that includes the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/people_for_the_ethical_treatment_of_animals/index.html?inline=nyt-org), the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (the agency that polices the horse-and-carriage industry), the pop singer Pink, and City Councilman Tony Avella, a Queens Democrat and mayoral candidate, wants the industry, a scenic city fixture for 136 years, banned.

Just say nay to the horse-and-carriage business because it is inhumane and a safety hazard (seven accidents, and two traffic-related horse deaths in the last three years) is the general drift of their protests and billboard campaigns. Mr. Avella has introduced various bills aimed at the industry — his first version simply called for carriage horses to be restricted to Central Park; his latest insists they should be put out to pasture altogether. So as not to be accused of inhumanity to the humans involved, he suggests that the drivers be retrained as taxi drivers or chauffeurs of a fleet of antique cars that could become the tourist vehicle of choice. An old car instead of a horse?

The industry’s most passionate practitioner, Ian McKeever, a co-owner of this stable since 2001 and a licensed carriage driver since dropping out of college in 1987, is eager to roll out his long-winded rebuttal with the welcome mat.

Well, not quite a welcome mat. A shaky chair rolled across the cement floor, and an admonition to watch where one steps is more like it.

Healthy, happy, citified horses — 30 of them, including his best friend, Roger, occupy the box stalls here when they aren’t hauling tourists through Central Park at $34 a trip — are the work partners that the Irish-born Mr. McKeever, a goateed string bean of 39, is showcasing. “We may be a 19th-century business in a 21st-century society,” he says, “but we’re a business that’s been here 136 years: We’re as famous as the Empire State Building (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/e/empire_state_building/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). We hold New York City’s most important commodity in the palm of our hands: the tourist industry. We’re like a gateway to the city, a kind of welcoming committee. Even actual New Yorkers love seeing our horses. Our horses love the attention; they love to go to work.”

THE horses typically work a 35-hour week, in seven-hour shifts regulated by the A.S.P.C.A., the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and the Department of Consumer Affairs. That beats the 7-day, 12-hour shifts they worked pulling plows and whatnot for the Amish in Pennsylvania, he insists. “We treat our horses like gold,” he adds, “because that’s how valuable they are to us.”

Apparently having kissed the Blarney Stone, Mr. McKeever, who grew up on his parents’ horse farm in County Meade above Dublin, seems an appropriate spokesman for the hastily mobilized, and increasingly indignant, Horse and Carriage Association.

“I consider myself an animal welfare activist; my feeling about these animal rights people is that they don’t want to hear about the compassionate side of me,” he says. “They’ve put out so many falsehoods that our association is becoming emboldened because we know the truth is on our side. So is Mayor Bloomberg (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/michael_r_bloomberg/index.html?inline=nyt-per).” So is Councilman James F. Gennaro, who supports raising the base price of a carriage ride to $54 from $34.

But not Mr. Avella, who’s running for mayor in 2009. In a telephone interview, Mr. Avella reiterated his position against the industry, calling it “ludicrous” for carriage horses to be mixing with city traffic and saying Mr. Gennaro “should be ashamed of himself.”

“If he becomes mayor, I’ll move all my horses back to Ireland,” sputters Mr. McKeever, who owns nine. “My feeling is he’s picked a controversial topic to get his name in the papers because he’s running for mayor. Besides, what does he know about horses?”

Mr. McKeever knows plenty. He grew up riding and grooming the dozen horses, mostly hunters, on his parents’ farm, but his first love was basketball, and he played for several national youth teams. At 17, he moved to New Jersey after receiving a basketball scholarship to the Saddle River Day School; next came a scholarship to Worcester State College, but he left after his freshman year and moved, jobless, to New York City.

His Irish girlfriend, Geraldine Glennon, put him in contact with a horse-and-carriage owner. “It was the best thing she’s ever done for me,” he says. His first night on the job, he was driving four female tourists through the park when a naked man ran out from behind a shrub, circled the carriage and disappeared. He told them the sideshow would be $10 extra. Another night, a man who had been stabbed leaped into the carriage with his stunned customers; he called 911. Twice in 20 years, he has had minor fender-benders with cars; he calls the death of Smoothie, the horse spooked by an amplified drum on Central Park South in September, an anomaly. “Our industry has an impeccable safety record.”

Now married with three children, he and Geraldine live in Bellmore on Long Island. His horse Roger is so much a family member that when he is retired in three years, at 17, he will move to Long Island rather than the six-acre farm Mr. McKeever leases in Pennsylvania. His horses “vacation” there three or four months each year. Yes, really.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times.

voodoochild
April 6th, 2008, 09:49 PM
Just follow the smell of horse manure on Central Park South. :D
Ew..gross....I know what you mean.

voodoochild
April 6th, 2008, 09:54 PM
[LatelineNews: 2004-11-27] NEW YORK - A man jumped to his death Friday from the 86th-floor observation deck at the Empire State Building, one of Manhattan's busiest tourist destinations, police said. The apparent suicide forced police to briefly close the landmark on Fifth Avenue to tourists in New York for the holiday weekend.

The man apparently climbed over a security fence that encloses the observation deck before leaping off. He hit a landing on the sixth floor, where he died instantly, police said.

No identification was found on his body.

At least 31 other people have committed suicide at the Empire State Building since it opened in 1931. More than 3.8 million people visit the tourist attraction each year, according to the building's Web site.

It is 1,454 feet to the top of the Empire State Building's lightning rod.
Looks like the Empire State Building is out too. :p
I say go catch an Independent film or go to a museum and end the night at Central Park watching the sunset on top of one of those big rocks(no carriage ride, they always tend to smell) with a bottle of wine.

brianac
June 19th, 2008, 05:14 PM
June 19, 2008, 3:27 pm

Film Puts Horse Before Cart, Then Shows Chaos

By Jennifer 8. Lee (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/author/jlee/)

A new documentary (http://www.blindersthemovie.com./) about New York’s horse-drawn carriages has entered the fray in the face-off between animal advocates and the carriage industry (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/a-face-off-over-horse-drawn-carriages/).

The film, “Blinders” (http://www.blindersthemovie.com/), by Donny Moss, starts with the idyllic sounds of clip-clopping, scenes of Central Park and interviews with happy tourists fresh off carriage rides.

Then it transitions into images and scenes from a carriage accident in January 2006, (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/04/nyregion/04carriage.html) where a spooked horse threw its driver and ran into a car on Ninth Avenue, injuring three people. The accident, which resulted in the injured horse being put down, sparked the creation of the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages. (http://www.banhdc.org/) It was around this time that Mr. Moss became interested in horse issues and decided to pursue a documentary.

Horses, of course, were once a transportation mainstay in 19th-century New York City (http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/578.html) (descriptions of horses dying of overwork, disease, heat and fire were common). But over time, with the car, horses’ practical functions were phased out, and now they are largely used for recreation in Central Park.

The carriage industry said the film is deceptive and selective. “There is nothing charming about a manipulative overly edited propaganda film by a group of animal extremists,” said Carolyn Daly, a spokeswoman for the Horse and Carriage Association of New York.

The 52-minute documentary, which was shown on Wednesday night at a screening organized by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://www.peta.org/) and the actor Alec Baldwin, then recounts a number of horse-related incidents:

In 2007, a carriage horse was killed (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/nyregion/15horse.html) near Central Park after it became startled by loud noises, apparently street music, and darted onto a sidewalk, where it became stuck between two poles and died as it tried to lunge forward. This prompted another call on banning horse carriages by PETA and the Coalition. (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/collision-prompts-a-call-to-ban-horse-drawn-carriages/)

In September 2006, Juliet, a 17-year veteran (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/16/nyregion/16horse.html), collapsed before a crowd of onlookers. The owner tried to get her up by whipping her on orders from a veterinarian, who suspected that she had colic. She died later in her Hell’s Kitchen stable. (In a bit of time-shifting, the film follows this with a headline from a 1989 letter to the editor from The Times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE5DB153BF932A35756C0A96F9482 60), “Treatment of Carriage Horses is a Blight on New York City’s Image”).

The litany continues:

In 1999, a horse named Jackie was electrocuted (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E0DC1F3EF93AA35752C0A96F9582 60) when she stepped on a steel Con Edison service box on East 59th Street that had short-circuited from a combination of rain, corrosive salt and frayed wires.

In 2000, 21 horses burned to death (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE6D8163EF932A25755C0A9669C8B 63) in a fire with 30-foot flames in a Brooklyn stable. (The film makes the point that housing horses anywhere but the first floor can be a fire hazard because of difficulty of exits.

However, the film neglects to fully point out that the burned stable is some 10 miles from Central Park (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=5th+Ave+%26+E+59th+St,+New+York,+New+York,+N ew+York,+United+States&daddr=1364+E+66th+St,+Brooklyn,+NY+11234&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=40.692614,-73.944168&sspn=0.252503,0.310364&ie=UTF8&ll=40.691572,-73.944855&spn=0.252507,0.310364&z=11) — over an hour in New York City traffic — and apparently thus did not house any carriage horses, which are housed in five West Side Stables. The burned stable did house two horses that belonged to the city’s Parks Department and many privately owned horses.)

The film also cites the city comptroller’s audit of horse carriage licenses (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/audit-of-horse-drawn-carriage-business-finds-inconsistencies/), which raised a variety of concerns, including: lax veterinary care, infrequent inspections, not enough water for the horses, risk of overheating on hot asphalt, and the fact they were forced to stand in their own waste because of inadequate drainage.

Ms. Daly said the filmmaker never tried to make contact with the association. “I think the truth is what you see every single day up in Central Park: happy, healthy, strong, beautiful horses that are well cared for, loved, and have homes, jobs and everything a horse needs in this life,” she said.

The association commissioned its own health report by a Cornell University veterinarian that found the horses to be healthy.

Nonetheless, the film will certainly be used to attract attention to the movement to ban horse carriages.

Last December, Tony Avella, a city councilman who is running for mayor, introduced a bill that would ban horse-drawn carriages (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/08/nyregion/08carriage.html) in New York City. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has voiced support for the industry

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/film-puts-horse-before-cart-then-shows-chaos/

Copyright 2008 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html) The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)

RandySavage
June 19th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Just looking at this from a distance, I think they need to cut the number of horse drawn carriage permits by 50% to 60%. I've never walked down 59th and not encountered an interminable line of bored drivers and idle horses (defecating).

brianac
June 20th, 2008, 03:36 AM
Too true.

I don't think anyone would like to see the end of this special Central Park attraction but is important that the horses are treated well.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z245/brianaclift/Central%20Park/CParkSthcrop.jpg

brianac
August 1st, 2008, 05:52 AM
The fight goes on. And this is what they spend their time arguing about.

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Horse-Drawn Carriage Supporters Question the Flowers Pam Anderson Gave Tony Avella

by Azi Paybarah (http://www.observer.com/node/36211) | July 31, 2008

A trade group that Tony Avella has been critical of is asking the city Conflict of Interest Board to look into whether the flowers Avella received from Pamela Anderson (http://www.observer.com/2008/politics/elsewhere-mccains-skin-thompsons-rainy-day-fund) (and “all your pals at the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA)!”) violated the city ban on gifts to lawmakers.

A lawyer for the Horse & Carriage Association of New York sent the letter today asking the C.O.I.B. to look into the matter. (Avella wants to pass a ban on horse-drawn carriages.) (http://www.observer.com/2007/avella-working-keeping-horses-out-slaughterhouses)

The letter, forwarded to reporters by the group’s spokeswoman, says:

On Tuesday, July 29, Mr. Avella accepted and publicized a bouquet of yellow roses presented to him in his Council District Office from the animal activist group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (aka PETA). PETA has been actively lobbying and attempting to influence members of the City Council, including Mr. Avella, for well over a year. At their urging, Mr. Avella introduced a piece of legislation last December calling for a ban on the horse carriage industry in New York City.

Our investigation showed that the flowers Mr. Avella accepted were from Ditmars Flowers & Gifts in Queens and valued at approximately $75.00. We believe Mr. Avella is in complete violation of the ethics rules and gift laws and would appreciate the Conflicts of Interest Board investigating this matter.

But Avella’s Deputy Chief of Staff, David Troise, said there’s no problem with the flowers. In an email to me, Troise explained:

Prior to accepting the flowers from Ms. Anderson, our legislative counsel, Rebecca Sheehan contacted the Executive Director of the Conflict of Interests Board, Mark Davies, to check if the Councilman was allowed to accept the flowers.

Mark Davies informed Ms. Sheehan that we were able to accept the flowers because they are a perishable item and because they could not be returned to the sender. The other stipulation was that the flowers had to be displayed in a public area, which they are.

http://www.observer.com/2008/politics/horse-drawn-carriage-supporters-question-flowers-pam-anderson-gave-avella

© 2008 Observer Media Group,

Merry
February 2nd, 2010, 05:06 AM
New York governor demands better treatment for Central Park carriage horses

By Michael Gormley

ALBANY, N.Y. — Gov. David Paterson, taking on the 150-year-old tradition of horse-drawn carriage rides in Manhattan's Central Park, says the horses need to be treated better or the popular tourist rides should be banned.

His recent comment before an animal activist group, rare from a high-level official, drew praise from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

Horsemen, however, have their own high-profile fans, including Irish actor Liam Neeson and others who testified for them at a recent hearing about how well the horses are treated and how important the service is to the city.

Paterson seeks "more humane treatment of horses that have often suffered due to difficult work conditions," said Paterson spokeswoman Marissa Shorenstein. "Horse carriages are important to New York's overall tourism industry and to the fabric of New York City's culture, however we must be certain to treat horses and all animals ethically."

The romantic rides in ornate Hansom carriages have graced Central Park since the 19th century, drawing 800,000 customers a year. They have been featured in tourism ads and in countless movies and TV shows.

But Paterson and animal rights groups say the horses' stables are too small and too cold in winter and that the constant work isn't humane. There are occasional crashes with automobiles, one of which left a horse dead last year.

There are 225 horses hauling 68 carriages in and around Central Park. Each animal gets a once-a-year veterinarian checkup.

Current law prohibits the horses from working more than nine hours within a 24-hour period, although that's often split between two shifts. They typically work about six hours during the day, then three more at night. They can't start work before 9:30 a.m.

Although the carriages are immense, horsemen note ball bearings in the wheels make the haul easier. Horsemen also recently added a solar powered water trough in the park and a sprinkler system in the stalls.

The horsemen are pushing for changes of their own, including vacations of four to five weeks for each horse and twice-a-year vet exams. Horsemen also note each horse has its own "box stall," but protesters have said they think the individual stalls don't provide enough space for horses to move around.

The horsemen, many of whom are Irish-American, say they want to preserve tradition while also improving horses' lives. Steven Malone started in the business when he was 6 years old. His father, an immigrant blacksmith, started his own carriage business in 1967.

"A lot of us grew up in the business and we're doing everything we can in our power to preserve the iconic image, but also to treat the horses with the utmost respect and care," said Malone, speaking for the Horse & Carriage Association. "The animals have a fantastic life."

He said Wednesday that a bill before City Council would make several improvements in the horses' treatment while also changing the fee to $50 for a half-hour ride, from the current $34 for 20 minutes.

The city Health Department, which issues permits and inspects the stables and horses regularly, is considering its own reforms.

An advisory board of veterinarians, horsemen and community activists issued recommendations nearly a year ago. They include larger stalls, "hoof branding" with computer chips to monitor the horses, emergency protocols and emergency contacts in the stables, said Jessica Scaperotti of the city Health Department.

The Horse & Carriage Association supports the ideas, many of which would address Paterson's concerns.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/2010-02-01-central-park-horses_N.htm

JSM007
February 2nd, 2010, 07:46 PM
Horse activism aside, I would say that, no, it's not romantic to go on a horse-led carriage ride. A human on a bike is probably cheaper and I'm sure you could tell him not to talk- he might even give you a discount for not having to say the same things for the 100th time that day.

An aside story, one time I was late for a party and couldn't find a cab for some odd reason. The party was on the opposite side of Central Park so I hailed a man on a bike and had him rush me over there to the party in style :cool:

Merry
March 12th, 2010, 07:35 PM
Carriage Horses Have Their Day at City Hall

By SHANE DIXON KAVANAUGH

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/12/nyregion/horse.480.jpg

Manhattan’s carriage horses may soon get an annual five-week vacation and safer working conditions, while their drivers receive a 47 percent pay raise – their first increase in more than 20 years.

Alternatively, horse-drawn carriage rides might instead become part of the fabled history they reproduce for thousands of tourists each year and be phased out in favor of fuel-efficient classic cars.

Or carriage rides may be restricted to Central Park. Or they might be simply outlawed.

All these possibilities were discussed in the City Council Friday as the council’s Consumer Affairs Committee held a hearing on four bills aimed at transforming the horse-drawn carriage industry one way or another.

Members of the Teamsters Union Local 553, which represent carriage drivers, and animal rights groups traded jabs with council members and each other over hours of testimony that sometimes pitted the jobs of several hundred hansom drivers and stable hands against the welfare of their animals.

Most council members at the hearing indicated support for an industry-backed bill (http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=649931&GUID=A94F649F-F5BA-4F19-AE0A-69866F5E697C&Options=&Search=) that would require better working and living conditions for the horses and also would increase the rate a horse carriage driver can legally charge, from $34 for a half-hour ride to $50.

“We really can’t afford to lose this industry when we’re leaking money all over the place,” said Councilman Leroy Comrie of Queens, who echoed concerns from the horse carriage industry and other councilmembers that it was dangerous to eliminate jobs in the middle of a recession.

The bill, sponsored by Councilman James F. Gennaro of Queens and others, has the support of the Bloomberg Administration — a deputy health commissioner spoke in its favor Friday.

During the hearing, Mr. Comrie asked to add his name to the list of sponsors of the bill. “The horse carriage industry is part of what makes New York City special,” he said.

But other council members disagreed.

“I don’t think it’s the only reason why people come to New York -– to ride in a horse carriage,” said Councilwoman Melissa Mark-Viverito, who introduced a bill (http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=652689&GUID=1F3959F3-5F33-48E8-89B3-2E925666348D&Options=&Search=) of her own.

It seeks to phase out horse-drawn carriages by April, 2012 and replace them with a fleet of zero-emission show cars designed to look like antique automobiles.

Ms. Mark-Viverito said the show cars could be operated by horse carriage drivers and would make New York a leader in ecotourism. She also indicated that the show cars would not be able to overcharge customers, for which horse carriage drivers have been criticized in the past.

At the hearing, Ms. Mark-Viverito’s bill received the support of the ASPCA, New Yorkers for Clean, Livable & Safe Streets and the League of Humane Voters.

“It would be a win-win-win,” said John Phillips of the League of Humane Voters. “The horses, the carriage industry and the city would all benefit.”

Stephen Malone, Executive Director of the Horse and Carriage Association of New York, criticized Ms. Mark-Viverito’s bill for trying to remove the horse carriage in favor of an industry whose success remains largely speculative.

After his testimony and outside the council chambers Mr. Malone reflected a bit further.
“There’s nothing greener than a horse, I’ll tell you that right now,” he said.

Of the other two bills, one would abolish carriages outright (http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=652679&GUID=6C0CDB63-456D-4224-B4A9-03CDF090BEB5&Options=&Search=). It is similar to a bill introduced in 2007 by Councilman Tony Avella, who said that the horses were not treated properly.

The other bill would restrict the hours of operation (http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=652538&GUID=A567D531-5B6F-4F43-932B-3A313156B8FC&Options=&Search=) for carriages and bar them from operating outside of Central Park.

Friday’s session, attended by about 200 people, was the first hearing on the bills. If any of them pass the committee, they go before the full council.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/carriage-horses-have-their-day-at-city-hall/

Merry
April 15th, 2010, 06:39 AM
Council Passes Fare Increase and Vacation for Carriage Horses

By DAISUKE NAKAI

Concluding, for now, a debate that brought vivid responses from both sides, the City Council passed a bill Wednesday to increase the fare for horse-drawn carriage rides while improving some conditions for the horses.

Speaker Christine C. Quinn called the bill a “huge step forward,” but was heckled by opponents of the industry.

The new law increases the fare to $50 for the first 20 minutes from $34 for the first half hour — the first increase in more than 20 years.

At the same time, the bill mandates stalls large enough for the horses to turn around and lie down in, and five weeks of vacation per year at a stable with a paddock or a pasture turnout.

The law also limits carriage horses to between 5 and 26 years of age. And it bans carriages from operating south of 34th Street, and from operating between 3 a.m. and 7 a.m.

The bill passed by a vote of 43 to 4, with one abstention, but several council members who voted for it voiced concerns about how the regulations would be enforced.

Ms. Quinn and Councilman James F. Gennaro, the prime sponsor of the bill, said at a news conference that although the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals opposed the bill itself, it had also worked with the council to make improvements in the regulations, including the amount of vacation time. The council members said they hoped that the society would continue to help in enforcing the law.

As Ms. Quinn introduced the bill, saying it was “a fair balance between having regulations that protect the horses that are part of this industry, but keeps an industry that supports 300 families,” she was met by catcalls, with one spectator shouting, “You’re a liar!”

According to an audit conducted in 2006, there are about 221 licensed horses, 293 licensed drivers and 68 licensed carriages operating in New York City. Animal rights groups have called for the abolition of horse-drawn carriages, saying that the horses are mistreated.

Bills calling for a ban on the carriages, and one proposing to phase them out and replace them with classic cars powered by alternative fuel, were also introduced to the Council this year, but did not pass the Committee on Consumer Affairs.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/council-passes-fare-increase-and-vacation-for-carriage-horses/#more-159129

Ninjahedge
April 15th, 2010, 07:48 AM
Yeah, we all know a ride in a classic car is just as unique and attractive as in a horse drawn carriage.

I am sure Carrie and Mr "Big" would have loved to end things that way, it would have been SO romantic! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Merry
April 18th, 2010, 01:27 AM
For Giddyup, Give a Horse a Holiday

By MARY JO MURPHY

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/04/18/weekinreview/18murphy/18murphy-articleLarge.jpg

Mister Ed knew what he wanted out of a vacation. He once stowed away on a cruise ship bound for Honolulu, took up surfing and announced that he liked the Hawaiian life so much he wouldn’t be returning home.

Never mind that Mister Ed was a horse (of course), or that “home” with Wilbur was a lot like a vacation. Mister Ed was indulged. He worked only when he felt like it. This is not the case for much of equinedom. Working horses abound. They patrol with the beat cop. They prance in the ring. They race. They parade. They round stuff up and haul stuff around.

But do they need vacations, and if so do they pack their Hermès valises and head to the Bahamas?

The New York City Council seemed to think vacations were a good idea when last week it mandated five weeks a year for the more than 200 tourist-carting carriage horses that clop-clop around Central Park and through the unyielding streets of Manhattan, day in, day out, deep into the night.

The Horse and Carriage Association of New York says on its Web site that the majority of these horses already get “two to four nonconsecutive months off in the Pennsylvania Amish Country.” (Do the workaholics among them moonlight on the buggy shift?)

That doesn’t sound too bad, but if we were a horse we might prefer what some other city slickers, the Queen’s Household Cavalry in London, opt for: a frolic at the beach, or what Britons have long called the “bucket and spade holiday.” After the pomp of Buckingham Palace, these busy Londoners love a bit of seaside sun.

Fran Jurga of Gloucester, Mass., who publishes the equine journal Hoofcare and Lameness and blogs on horse health for Equus Magazine, suggests that some vacations beat others, but this has more to do with turf than surf.

Grass, grass, grass. Nothing makes a horse happier (if we can presume to get inside a horse’s head here) than a little grazing in open pasture. And “horses have total memory recall,” Ms. Jurga said. “They don’t forget what grass is.”

“Usually the first thing a horse does when it is set loose in a field or paddock will be to roll in a sandy spot,” she said. “They will take great pleasure in this, and wave their feet in the air almost as if expressing joy and contentment as they scratch their backs. In Britain, it was said that when the pit ponies came up from the mines, often after months or years without seeing daylight or smelling grass, they invariably rolled and rolled.”

Cathy Behn, secretary of the Clydesdale Breeders of the U.S.A., is all for grassy vacations. Grazing, along with “fresh water and a loving pat every once and a while,” is what her Clydes like best after the concrete habitat of the Wisconsin State Fair.

She sounded a bit disapproving of the queen’s horses running off to the beach. Sand isn’t good for draft horses, she said. Too much and they can get sand colic and die.

Ms. Jurga, too, sees health as a concern for the recreating horse. Equine rhabdomyelosis, also called Monday morning disease, is a cramping condition and “quite debilitating to a horse that has been fed a normal ration of feed on a day off, then heads out to work on the next day.”

Horses “probably all need rest, depending on how hard they work,” she said. Then again, they are “incredible creatures of habit; they actually don’t like their routines broken up,” she said. “They like everything done the same way, every day, at the same time.” Fire horses were known to respond to a bell long after they retired, trotting to the barn in search of the harness.

It’s good to kick off the shoes now and then, but Ms. Jurga wonders what vacations for carriage horses mean. “Mostly,” she said, “I think the change would be in attitude. They might be bright and energetic after the break, and that is not always desirable in a carriage horse.”

Tell that to the Lipizzaner stallions of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, who vacation at a farm in the countryside. Like a lot of Europeans, they take quite a bit of the summer off, so tourists in search of equine entertainment are better off coming to New York.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/weekinreview/18murphy.html?ref=nyregion

Merry
May 14th, 2010, 06:56 AM
The Harsh Reality for New York Carriage Horses

by Laura Eldridge

A recent bill passed by the City Council (Intro 35) granting 5 weeks vacation to NYC carriage horses received a great deal of attention in the press, with news anchors chuckling over such an extravagant benefit. It's easy to see why your average overworked New Yorker would feel a touch of envy, but the harsh reality of life for a carriage horse working in New York City is no laughing matter.

They routinely work at least 9 hours a day, pulling a vehicle that weighs hundreds of pounds, on hard pavement, while breathing exhaust from cars, buses and taxis.

Unaccustomed to the urban environment, horses can be "spooked" easily, by anything from another horse to a plastic shopping bag to a pedestrian, and cause accidents that inflict great damage on vehicles, drivers and most often, the horses themselves.

At the end of the day the horses return to their tiny stalls in stables housed in former tenement buildings on the far West side of the city, or as Jon Stewart once called it, "The sad-eyed horse carriage district." The cramped space doesn't allow these enormous animals to lie down or to move about freely and get the daily exercise that equine veterinarians agree they need.

Once a horse hits the streets of Manhattan, its life expectancy is cut in half. After a few years of work, injuries and illness usually force the horses into retirement, not to a farm or pasture but to auctions in Pennsylvania where they can be sold to kill-buyers, transported to Mexico and Canada and slaughtered for meat.

As for the 5 week vacation promised in the bill (Intro 35) recently signed into law by Mayor Bloomberg? It sure sounds nice, but don't expect to be running into a horse at the Jersey Shore anytime soon. The minimal regulations already in place are frequently ignored by carriage horse owners and drivers, with no repercussions. The NYC Department of Health and the Department of Consumer Affairs simply don't have the resources or the expertise to fulfill their oversight responsibilities for the 211 carriage horses.

According to a 2007 audit by former NYC Comptroller Bill Thompson, the Department of Health's veterinary consultants spent an average of only 25 minutes inspecting each stable - and that 25 minutes included traveling from one stable to the next, inspecting the condition of the facilities, reviewing paperwork maintained by the horse owners, and completing their own paperwork, not to mention checking out the physical conditions of the horses.

It is no surprise then, that when comparing the 2005 health certificates of the horses with the 2006 certificates, investigators from the Comptroller's office found that 42% of them had conflicting descriptions of the same horses, including age, color, breed, name and gender. With such shoddy record-keeping, who will ever know if the horses get their much talked-about vacation?

The workers in the horse carriage industry don't fare much better. They are independent contractors and their daily income is based on how many rides they sell. They certainly do not get any paid vacation or sick days, let alone any other benefits, like unemployment, health insurance or workman's compensation despite the frequent injuries incurred on the job.

The New York City Council should pass legislation that supports the welfare of humans and animals. A bill currently before the City Council, Intro 86, would phase out the horse-drawn carriages and replace them with green horseless carriages. This new industry would create well-paying jobs with full benefits, and would allow for the retirement of the over-worked horses to farms and sanctuaries.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-eldridge/the-harsh-reality-for-new_b_575391.html

Merry
May 20th, 2010, 05:32 AM
City Tells Carriage-Horse Stable It’s Time to Close

By EMILY B. HAGER

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/05/19/nyregion/19stable-cityroom/19stable-cityroom-blogSpan.jpg

Wood shavings dust the concrete ramp leading into to Shamrock Stables, one of five carriage-horse stables in New York City. But by mid-June, those shavings, the smell of manure, and the quiet whispers of the stable’s Irish owners will probably be replaced by the sites and sounds of construction as the city plans to move forward with a luxury and moderately priced housing development that will also include a new school, stores and open space.

At odds are a family-run business facing eviction June 1 and the city’s need to expand and redevelop. The loss could be a quarter of the city’s carriage horses, beloved by some New Yorkers, while others think they have been mistreated for years and should be prohibited in the city.

“We hold New York’s most precious commodity in the palm of our hand — and that’s the tourist,” Ian McKeever, an owner of the stable, said at a news conference on Tuesday aimed at winning some kind of financial support from the city. “Compassion is what I am looking for in these economic times.”

Shamrock Stables is the only stable leasing its building from the city. According to Carolyn Daly, a spokeswoman for the stable, Shamrock has been a city tenant for 41 years, originally on 61st Street near Franklin D. Roosevelt Drive and, since 2001, at 522 West 45th Street.

Mr. McKeever, 41, and the other owner, John Campbell, 74, said that when the city relocated them in 2001, they signed a month-to-month lease with the city, which led them to believe they would ultimately return to their original location. “But they didn’t put it in writing or make it official,” Mr. Campbell said.

Months turned into years, and during those years the city notified Shamrock Stables more than once that the land had been rezoned and that their stables were destined for redevelopment.

“We knew this would be developed at some point,” said Mr. McKeever, who pays $5,000 a month in rent. Mr. McKeever said he believed comparable stables would cost $60,000 a month to rent, which he said he and his tenants could not afford.

Last fall, Shamrock received notification that the city had sold the land to Gotham Construction for development and that they would have to find new homes for their horses and carriages by the end of 2009. City courts granted the stables an extension through May, but over the last few months, some of Shamrock’s tenants, growing nervous, left the stable and settled in stalls located in the four other carriage stables around the city.

“We know it’s not easy to relocate a business, but this is something that has been in the works since 2005, and this,” said Eric Bederman, a spokesman for the Department of Housing Preservation and Development, referring to development, “is something the community needs.”

According to Mr. Bederman, the city’s other stables, which are all privately operated, have the capacity to house the remaining horses at Shamrock’s stables, but carriage drivers and supporters of Shamrock Stables say every stable needs a few open stalls for sick horses.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/city-tells-carriage-horse-stable-its-time-to-close/#more-174811