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Juna
July 6th, 2005, 03:56 AM
Student association provides cover for member of a network of Chinese communist industrial spies in several European nations

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-5/30079.html

Edward
July 6th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Chinese industrial espionage - for the benefit of American consumers. I think we should be happy - the quality of Chinese products is going to improve.

Juna
July 8th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Beijing Church Leader Put on Trial; Relatives and US
Embassy Official Blocked
Arresed for alleged "illegal business practices" when no money was involved
ChinaAid



CAA learned that Pastor Cai Zhuohua, the leader of six Beijing-area house churches, was put on trial Thursday morning in a Beijing courtroom for alleged "illegal business practices."

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-7/30135.html

ZippyTheChimp
July 8th, 2005, 10:30 AM
Juna:


Please check your private messages


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Juna has left the building, and my 2 day old PM goes unread. I'll have
to do this myself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Juna: I have merged your last thread into this one, and renamed it News from China.

Post your news items in this thread. Any new threads will be deleted.

Juna
July 8th, 2005, 10:58 PM
The Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group (www.falunhr.org) announced the publication of a new book, The 2004 United Nations Reports on China’s Persecution of Falun Gong. It is the second book of collections of reports of the Special Rapporteurs of the United Nations Human Rights Commission on China’ violence against Falun Gong practitioners.


http://www.flghrwg.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1027&Itemid=0

macreator
July 9th, 2005, 12:28 AM
The Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group (www.falunhr.org) announced the publication of a new book, The 2004 United Nations Reports on China’s Persecution of Falun Gong. It is the second book of collections of reports of the Special Rapporteurs of the United Nations Human Rights Commission on China’ violence against Falun Gong practitioners.


http://www.flghrwg.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1027&Itemid=0

I've seen the protestors outside the TimeWarner Center at Columbus Circle and in Midtown a few times.

Juna
July 12th, 2005, 10:18 AM
Jiang Zemin and Other Chinese Leaders Sued in Spain



MADRID - On June 28, a Madrid based non-governmental organization, Support Tibet Committee, sued former Chinese President Jiang Zemin, former Chinese premier Li Peng, and other Chinese government officials for genocide, national terrorism and torture.

http://theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-4/30043.html

Ninjahedge
July 12th, 2005, 11:21 AM
Juna does not talk much, does he/she.....

Juna
July 13th, 2005, 09:48 AM
SYDNEY – On July 10, former Chinese consular official, Chen Yonglin, attended a forum with the local Chinese community for the first time since his defection. Chen discussed, from his personal experience, how the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) infiltrates and controls the local Chinese community. He also said that some members of the local Chinese community did not understand his defection, and he hoped to establish better communication and understanding with them. He trusts that through this activity, the local Chinese community will better see the nature of the CCP.

http://theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-13/30290.html

Ninjahedge
July 13th, 2005, 10:53 AM
JUNA!!!!

We appreciate the links, but please become a PERSON on the board and not just a news poster!

It gets us to feel a little more for what you are posting.


BTW, what is up with the "defeat Terrorism/Defeat Communism" article link in the London thread? I know they are loosely related, but are you on a crusaide to elimnate the "threat of communism" in China...?

>confused<

Edward
July 13th, 2005, 11:32 AM
I share you sentiment, Ninjahedge. If Juna does not want to talk to us, I am going to close the thread. Anyone interested in the topic - and there is no evidence that anyone is interested - will be able to peruse the URL of the website Juna keeps posting.

Juna
July 14th, 2005, 11:45 AM
JUNA!!!!


BTW, what is up with the "defeat Terrorism/Defeat Communism" article link in the London thread? I know they are loosely related, but are you on a crusaide to elimnate the "threat of communism" in China...?

>confused<

The link named News, therefore, I think the news is important, however talking is needed.

Here comes the topic, CCP is evil.
It created violence.

Juna
July 15th, 2005, 01:03 AM
CCP is the source of evil.
Read this link please:


Chinese General Warns U.S. over Taiwan


LONDON - A senior Chinese general has warned that China was ready to use nuclear weapons against the United States if Washington attacked his country over Taiwan, the Financial Times newspaper reported on Friday.
Zhu Chenghu, a major general in the People's Liberation Army who said he was expressing his own views and did not anticipate a conflict with Washington, nevertheless said China would have no option but to go nuclear in the event of an attack.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-14/30332.html

Schadenfrau
July 15th, 2005, 11:14 AM
http://www.factnet.org/cults/Falun_Gong/?FACTNet

Juna
July 22nd, 2005, 02:12 AM
More than a decade after the fall of the former Soviet Union and Eastern European communist regimes, the international communist movement has been spurned worldwide. The demise of the Chinese Communist Party is only a matter of time.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/jiuping.asp

laji
July 22nd, 2005, 11:47 AM
CCP is the source of evil.
It created violence


May be you should look at US foreign policy.
Which I wont discuss. Only the US people believe they bring peace and
stability and properity. (which prooves that the US communication ministry
is more efficient than the chinese propaganda ministry).

As you seem to like links, here's one.
http://learn.tsinghua.edu.cn/homepage/2000990147/paper/Decade_Peace.htm

Your source, epochtimes, is using propaganda. eg:
"That means that we don't support unilateral moves toward independence
by Taiwan"

Which is a lie.

US keeps destabilisating the taiwan strait and pushes taiwan towards
independance (which would lead to a war).

Why have such an idea ? Let's look at recent fact.

Recently, US gave Taiwan (ROC in fact, no ?) the insurance they would
defend them, what ever would happen.

The reaction from taiwan was quite quick. Now they don't want to pay so
much for US weapons. Before, it was ok to spend so much money for
weapons because they would buy US protection in fact. Now US says they
will defend anycase ... they bargain.

US keeps selling arms to taiwan, and prevent china to buy (Ukrain and
Israel recently). But China doesnt have good conventionnal army (BTW
nuclear neither). US also sells arms to Pakistan (arf!!!), India, Japan, korea ...
Seems directed against china no ? Who is trying to destabilizate ?

They have made Japan say (Which is the first time in 50 years japan says
something about international politics) that it would help US if there was
a war about Taiwan. After what Japan has made in asia, it is quite funny
for it to take position ... no ?

US wants to deploy TMD around Taiwan. This is an arms race launching.
China has no other choice but to enhance nuclear weapons.
Also US has gone away from the ABM treaty, and the resolution against
nuclear tests.

US has re-depolyed their eastern-europe bases in the caucase, just next to
china. Except Kirkigstan which is about to kick the US army out. US is
trying to control the oil china needs to make china suffocate.

Seems US is already using against China the methods used against USSR,
containment.

So, who is threatening who ? And who is trying to destabilize and launch arms race ?

epochtimes says "It also means that we are concerned about the military balance"
So we should have balance between 20 million people province, and 1.5
billion people country ? HA HA HA! Is that a joke ?

US is destabilizating the world, (can unipolar world be balanced ?)
prentending that anyone who is strong is a menace to the stability of the
world, because US would have no other option but to make war (which isnt
stable!) to keep leadership (oh sorry, stability) ... . But who is making
wars ?

Juna. Want an advice ? Get prepared, Eat rice! (Mac Nems is ok too)

... And practice karaoke! http://fenghuang.club.fr/noparty.rm

Have fun!

--
KMT KMT KMT KMT KMT KMT KMT KMT KMT KMT

Ninjahedge
July 22nd, 2005, 01:30 PM
Laji, I would not go as far as you are saying, but I do agree the US is trying to form a sort of cold-war with China. Especially in light of the fact that they pose a big risk with their manufacturing and tying their currency to ours.

I do not believe either is the big evil, but I do think that both sides have done their share of bad.

To say the US is the ultimate evil is as posturing and mudslinging as saying china kills baby seals for fun. Do not try to balance the anti-china propaganda with diametrically opposed US slamming.

Juna
July 23rd, 2005, 03:05 AM
May be you should look at US foreign policy.
Which I wont discuss. Only the US people believe they bring peace and
stability and properity.

I think US has done a job as the world's policeman.

If US doesnot care about the human rights of people in non-democracy-countries, I donot know which country could help them.

CCP has proven its evil nature, and now, even threaten the world by using nuke.

Then, here you defend for this evil thing.

Have a look at the history, what the communist party has done to the peace of the world? and think of how many persons have been killed by evil communsit system.

wake up.

"The 55-year history of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is written with blood and lies. The stories behind this bloody history are both extremely tragic and rarely known. Under the rule of the CCP, 60 to 80 million innocent Chinese people have been killed, leaving their broken families behind. Many people wonder why the CCP kills. While the CCP continues its brutal persecution of Falun Gong practitioners and recently suppressed protesting crowds in Hanyuan with gunshots, people wonder whether they will ever see the day when the CCP will learn to speak with words rather than guns. "

http://english.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

Ninjahedge
July 25th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Juna, you are preaching.

You do not convert a jew to christianity by promising damnation with non compliance.

In order to convince someone of what is going on, you do not challange them, you invite them. Your tirades are being seen as just that. they may be vailid indeed, but people get tired of hearing them and end up ignoring the issues you are trying to bring attension to.


So try, if you can, to discuss the issues and topics rather than treat us like schoolchildren becasue we fail to see China as the same evil as you do.


I do not think ANYONE has said that communisim is the best system, or that situations in China are rosy, but you seem to take it that if we do not say China is Evil, that we are endorsing them.

Again, if you want a conversation, try not to preach, chastise, or just plain yell at us. You may find more than a few sympathetic ears....

Juna
July 28th, 2005, 01:47 AM
Telling people sth they did not realize might make others think preaching.

However, i think truth is important.

Peace.

The Relationship between the West and CCP Renunciation

Since November 8, 2004 when The Epoch Times published The Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party, it quickly became the hot topic among Chinese people around the world. It has generated a tremendous wave of withdraws from the Chinese Communist Party and the Communist Youth League. Up till now the number of people who have openly withdrawn from the CCP and the Youth League through the internet has reached three million. This phenomenon has gradually attracted the attention of western society. Recently, politicians and VIPS around the world have openly supported the wave of withdrawals.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-25/30554.html

laji
July 28th, 2005, 12:59 PM
To say the US is the ultimate evil is as posturing and mudslinging as saying
china kills baby seals for fun. Do not try to balance the anti-china
propaganda with diametrically opposed US slamming.

Did I say US was the big evil ? no.
Is that US slamming to look at facts and analyse US strategy ? no.

I just point at facts, which anyone could verify, that leads me to say that
behind the sweet discourse of US diplomacy, US has a
strategy which is much more hegemonic and agressive, which is excactly
the contrary of a democratic attitude and the world we'd (for non US
people) like to have, that is, a multipolar world.

The idea that anyone becoming a regional power (not even world power) is
a danger to the stability of the world (understand to US hegemony and US interests)
is very well explained by Zbigniew Brzezinski in his book "The Grand Chessboard"
You can also read Kissinger or Huntington, you'll have the same point of view.

This is called, the peace of the empire. Thanks to ceazar.

But the best interest for the world is to create a multipolar world, which
means a balance between regional powers, democratize UNO and respect
UNO descisions, and respect international court.

Which is against US interests. So US keeps playing against those interests.

For example, a fear US has in middle east since 50 years is that Iran would
become a regional power (and now China in east asia).

So, It's the reason why US has given so much money and arms to Hussein's Iraq
for years, especially during war against Iran, till the 90's.

Especially, as Iran can bomb all oil sites of the region (in Iraq, Saoudi Arabia, caucase...),
this is a real threat to US interests. And the more! Iran sells to China the
oil it needs.

So if Iran builds nuclear bomb (that only Israel -relay of US interests- has
in this region) ...

All this makes me think the next target will be Iran, once Iraq is
"stabilized" (like Afganistan ... arf!)

Pressure on Syria should be enough, no need for invasion. And north korea
is about to die by itself, no help needed for that.

Wait and see ... (I can't wait!!!)

So! US isn't the big devil (isn't that islamist propaganda ? Isreal and US the
little and big satan ?), but we are not blind. And facing reality isn't bashing.
Be reassured, looking at others country diplomacy brings lots of fun also.

Take a look at this funny list!

Who has trained Ben Laden ? CIA ? But at the time, that was to fight against
USSR in Afghanistan.

BTW, were WMD found in Iraq ? Is there any link between Sadam and Al-Quaida?

Why did US didn't remove Saddam the first time ? To justify military bases in
Saoudi Arabia for oil control?

And even give Saddam arms just after the 1st war ended ? To repress the
rebelion of chiite that would have lead to Iran2, not friend of US ?

How can that be that Saoudi Arabia, homeland of wahhabite, isn't on the
list of "bad" countries ??? Because it sells oil to US ?
Terrorists of 9/11 were mostly from this country, no ?
May be controlling oil in Iraq will give US the possiblity to put pressure on
Saoudi Arabia ?

And Pakistan, homeland 2 of fundamentalists to which US sells F-16 !!!
(let's consider afghanistan as ex-homeland 0)

Don't you think that all this leads to have doubt about the sincerity of
US diplomacy ?

Of course, US hasn't the monopole of those methods. Look at Russia that
fight against terrorism in Tchetchenia, and support it in south caucase, to keep
its military bases. If you like, we can discuss about other countries more deeply.

All the bashing I've seen since 15 years was 1) against Japan,
which is over now because replaced by 2) bashing against China.
(Except in France where US bashing is a national sport :-) whatever the
political party you are in).
I can give you a non exhaustive list of recent US books about China bashing if
you are interested in this kind of propaganda.

I know how much Americans love their country and how much this is
difficult for them to hear about critics, because they feel like you
attack them personaly when you criticize the US governement.
So be sure there is no offence here.

Government, cutlure and people are 3 different things, and there is
usually no reasons not to love people. Loving culture is a question of taste,
and loving government is a question of interests.

You know, Europe, Russia, China, Bresil or India also have their own
strategists, view of the world and interests, which are very different from
US's (Isn't that the basics of internationnal politics, no ?)

Nobody gave US this holy mission to bring it's model without others consent.
What is good for US isn't necessarily good for the rest of the world ...

Let's hope China brings us at least bipolar world, though multi polar would
be better.



I think US has done a job as the world's policeman


Ummm. In democracy (even in China!!) , you have a legislative power that
create laws, and the police ensure they are applied. Police do not decide
which law should be created.

US make their own laws (for their own interests pretending others
interests, or claiming universal values), and make them apply using their
super power, that is violence. In some case, they forget their universal
values and laws (the cases where this isn't their interests)

So it looks like quite different from the role police have.

Do US respect international laws ? Not so sure.
US does not respect UNO descisions (war against Yougoslavia, and against Iraq),
nor International Penal Court, not to talk about international treaties like ABM or Kyoto.

So I'm not quite sure about the legitimacy of US police attitude (or army's
attitude should we say ?)

Yesterday, I have read that in international politics, humanitarian or
preventive wars were an aberation. There was only offensive wars and
defensive wars. Only one of the two was legitimate: Defensive war.

Note that preventive wars and defensive wars are not the same because
a defensive war suppose someone has attacked you first. Preventive war
is when you attack pretending to defend because *put whatever
reason looks nice here*

But do we have any choice ? US has an army budget which is superior
the sum of the ones of all the countries of the world.

So for the best and the worse, we have to live with that.

Hopefully, I still can eat rice with my Big Mac, so it's OK.
(My god, I love rice!!!)

Then, the german joke of the day! Have fun!
http://fenghuang.club.fr/Fool.jpg

Ninjahedge
July 28th, 2005, 01:50 PM
And you guys say I post long!!!!



Well I do, but.....


At least I did not quote her in this reply!


Jun, the only thing I was saying is that you are entitled to your opinions, and you are allowed to spread whatever news you have. the whole thing is in the presentation.

You can give away free food to hungry people and they will not take it if it seems like you are forcing it on them. The same goes for news. Offer a bit of your own input in here, but try to keep it friendly.

Do not put it like you are trying to win an arguement or push propaganda (whether it is or is not) or it will be read as such.


And Laj, I know what you are saying, and you did not need to go into that whole long explanation of how the US has done such and such. All I was saying is that you did not take a middle ground approach to your presentation when you posted here. You seemed to stand opposite to Juna and throw a bunch of counter-arguements to the wind.

The best way to convince someone is a lot like fighting, dancing or anything else. Standing toe to toe will not get you to see the same thing. You sometimes need to walk in the others path a while to see if they are indeed walking off a cliff or not.

laji
July 28th, 2005, 10:34 PM
And you guys say I post long!!!!

[...] All I was saying is that you did not take a middle ground approach
to your presentation when you posted here. You seemed to stand opposite
to Juna and throw a bunch of counter-arguements to the wind.


Sorry for that so long and boring posting.

I am effectivly standing opposite, but explaining myself at the same time.

I know that if at the begining this looks like fighting, keeping explaining and not
bashing brings dialog and mutual understanding.

War against communism is over, and CCP has nothing to do with
communism anymore (since Deng, so 25 years!!!).

So one should look on how china's governement is evolving instead
of how bad china is. Pointing what is still to do is interesting,

Ask yourself a question. If you were president of China, what would
you do to make things better ?

Changing while maintaining stability is #1 priority (which is also
an advantage of democracy)
One could point that best point of democracy is stability when changing
of the one who rules. But now US trust there will not be any civil war in china
when giving the power to new president. (not like with KMT and CCP
which came to DPRC / ROC conflict)
You could look at Yan Xuetong's article's for that.

Number 2 is increasing money for people. Remember we still have
800 millions peons. What is considered as social dumping in occident
is a chance for us. Thanks to that, China is the biggest creation
of wealth in 15 years. 100 million people gone upper level of
poverty (1 $ a day) in 15 years (but you call that exploitation)
(see Stiglizt, nobel price of economy, ex-president of Mondial Bank)

All this, of course, is to maintain legitimacy of the government.

You must get asian way of thinking and occidental way are different.
We are confucians. (read kongfuzi, and laozi!!!)

Revolution (like communism) is occidental concept. We dont do that way.
We are pragmatic, and do little by little, even if we have to do funny
ideological games like praticing capitalism while saying we are communists.

We dont want to end like Russia. They had a democratic revolution. Now
they starve.

Look at Japan, this is a democracy. But it is the same party that leads
since 50 years (except 3 years I think). So you must understand
things aren't the same.

Who would like Mao for Cultural revolution or The big Jump forward (dont
know how this is called in english). So many deads.

But CCP is defending China's interests, and you may have forgotten
Opium war and unequal treaties but we didn't. 200 years to come back!!
because of occident we were destroyed.
(I think japan didn't forget meiji era also, and my personal
opinion is that you brought imperial idea to japan - that caused us harm-
as you brought communism to china. Thanks for the present!!! sorry for
such an accusation)

Since Deng, everything is getting better! We have more money, we are
opening. Nothing can reverse. Democracy is coming like economy. little
by little.

So what;s next ?

Actual debate is, we have to do political reform to maintain gains
of economical reforms. For that we have firstable to reform the judiciary
system.

And how can we deal with 800 millions peons ?

We controlled our natality, but now we have to pay for old people and
have less young people.

And we need more and more energy, especially oil, that US is taking
out of our hands. We don't use bikes anymore but motorbikes.

Japan is docile because you throw nuclear bombs on it. It feels shame
about US, but not about the atrocities it's done in china.

We are not docile, and you can do nothing about it, just because we
are bigger country and more numerous (even in the case of nuclear attack)

So, is US gonna launch a war against china just because it can't accept to loose
leadership (taiwan is so good excuse) ?

We have 3000 years history, Our empire isn't about 100 years ...

But what is china's intention ?

So again let's have german fun. http://fenghuang.club.fr/Helmut.jpg
translate is "Hey! this is me!!! Helmutt!! just my nose bleeding!!! humlutt!!! nose bleeding!!!"

If you like this kind of humor go to http://www.nichtlustig.de/main.html
Some of them even don't need translation.

--
Note: Did you read Machiavel "the prince" ? he's great! (but one should also read sunzi also :-) )

Juna
July 28th, 2005, 10:57 PM
Let's hope China brings us at least bipolar world, though multi polar would
be better.
I think you are ignoring CCP's evil nature.
Do you want the evil harm more people?


On the Unscrupulous Nature of the Chinese Communist PartY

The communist movement, which has made a big fanfare for over a century, has brought mankind only war, poverty, brutality, and dictatorship. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern European communist parties, this disastrous and outrageous drama finally entered its last stage by the end of the last century. No one, from the ordinary citizens to the General Secretary of the Communist Party, believes in the myth of communism anymore.
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-30/25242.html

BrooklynRider
July 29th, 2005, 12:22 AM
I think you are ignoring CCP's evil nature.
Do you want the evil harm more people?


On the Unscrupulous Nature of the Chinese Communist PartY

The communist movement, which has made a big fanfare for over a century, has brought mankind only war, poverty, brutality, and dictatorship. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern European communist parties, this disastrous and outrageous drama finally entered its last stage by the end of the last century. No one, from the ordinary citizens to the General Secretary of the Communist Party, believes in the myth of communism anymore.
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-30/25242.html

Oh, Please. And, we here in America are in the land of Peace (Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Grenada, Panama, Yugoslovia, Serbia, Somalia, Beirut, Iraq, Afghanistan). War, yup the US has brought that. Poverty, yup the richest country in the world has it at home and does nothing to alleviate it around the world, brutality (see list going backward and George W / Cheney / Rumsefeld / Condi going forward. Dictatorship - read up on the Florida election irregularities of 2000 and the Ohio election irregularities of 2004. CAFTA just passed even though a vastmajority of Americans do not support it. The US entered its death throes at the end of the 20th Century and there are now 52% of Americans who no longer believe the myths being fed us by the stooges in charge.

Juna
August 2nd, 2005, 04:07 AM
Self-Examination Movement Signals a New China
A China free of hatred and violence is a China truly able to harmonize with the globe

This speech was given at the forum "A Closer Look into China: Nine Commentaries Triggers Mass Resignations from the CCP" held Friday, July 22 at the National Press Club at Washington, D.C.
Recently Major General Zhu Chenghu of the People’s Liberation Army in China spoke about Taiwan strait issues in Hong Kong. He said that if the U.S. intefered if China attacked Taiwan, then China would use nuclear weapons and “Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”

This is the first time the Chinese military has said it would be the first to use nuclear weapons. Ever since 1964, China’s first atomic bomb experiment, the Chinese government has been, in public at least, adhering to several nuclear weapon policies. That is, not at any time, nor under any circumstances will it preemptively use nuclear weapons to strike any other countries or regions. Please note that [they said] other countries or regions.

At the end of 1990s, high-ranking Chinese military officers once implied that China might use nuclear weapons to strike the west coast of the US. This time, they openly threatened [destoying] hundreds of US cities.

This shocked America. However, this is no surprise to Chinese people, especially those who grew up in China. A lot of Chinese people have deep understandings of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-30/30759.html

Ninjahedge
August 2nd, 2005, 09:05 AM
I don't know.

yes i can see them posturing, but something about the "epoch" times that just irritates me about their writing.

I think it is the apocolyptic bent and "hell freezing over" nature of their articles that makes me reluctant to believe anything they post.

Juna, has the Epoch said ANYTHING good about the chinese government on their website?

Edward
August 2nd, 2005, 09:21 AM
Juna, you are free to post your opinion here, but enough with this wholesale posting of epochtimes articles - this starts to look like spamming. Anyone interested have enough links in this thread.

laji
August 3rd, 2005, 11:59 AM
This is the first time the Chinese military has said it would be the first to use nuclear weapons.


He said:
"China is prepared to use nuclear weapons against the US if it is attacked
by Washington during a confrontation over Taiwan.
[...]
If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to
the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with
nuclear weapons"

Which means **IF** US attacks China, China will have no other choice but
to respond using nuclear weapons, because we don't have good enough conventional army.

So don't attack China, and China will not have to defend itself.

The more, this declaration is a reponse to US threatening China's stability,
with the last declartion of Japan saying that it would imply with US in a war
against China over the Taiwan issue.

US is obviously destabilizing the Taiwan straight (before the 2008 beijing
games it would great, wouldn't it ?), which is in contradiction with the
declaration it's made about the status-quo, the peaceful reunification,
and that Taiwan was part of China (one country, two systems).

US wants Japan in security council, though Japan hasn't recognized the
attrocities it's done (remember the 731 unit ?) in China, korea ... up
to Thailand. It made Korea and China very angry! Remember the studients
manifestations against Japan about this in Korea and China (including
Taiwan) ?

This is irresponsible attitude of US.

How can Japan deal with asian affairs legitimely when it continues not to
consider if it does (or has done) good or bad to others ?
(On the other hand, US doesn't want Germany in security council,
though it has widely recognized the bad it's done during the war! Just
because Germany was against this illegal war against Iraq)

Don't threat China, and China won't have to make you remember simple
realities.

US may have the strongest conventional and nuclear army, but there is
a little detail: US can use nuclear bombs against china, because
China's population is 1 billion and a half. US is only 300 millions!
So US has to think wisely about an attack against china just to deal with
others internal affairs, that is ingerence (which is against UNO rules about etat-nation)

Up to now, only we can see is US has attacked countries first (without
beeing attacked first, and without the consent of UNO), using lies, and used
(unjustifiedly) nuclear bombs.

China and Taiwan want peacefull reunification, and china will use force
*ONLY* if Taiwan takes unilateral independance which has widely been
explained by the chinese law voted in reponse of Chen Shuibian tries to
modify the constitution to formalize independance, though the last
referendum proved that most of us taiwanese **DONT** want
independance (or worse! just don't care). We want stability and prosperity.

Read http://www.taiwandc.org/aslaw-text.htm
for the full text of the Anti-Secession Law and explanations here
http://english.sina.com/china/1/2005/0315/24272.html and here
http://english.sina.com/p/1/2005/0307/23789.html

SO DON'T DESTABILIZATE TAIWAN STRAIGHT!!!! KEEP STATUS QUO!!!
WE DON'T WANT THE MESS!!!

You should ask yourself the consequences of Taiwan taking unilateral
independance. Does US want to balkanize China ? Take a look at Balkans.
US surely brought democracy and peace there (lol). Is that what US calls a
safer place now ? If so, we don't want this kind of safety. (BTW, why was
the chinese embassy bombed by US at this occasion ?)

Taiwan is the best motivation for CCP to make political reforms, because
we won't accept reunification until CCP's political system has made some
progress about freedoms. And HK is good witness to see if CCP respects
correctly the "one country, two systems" approach.

China won't threat anyone who hasn't threatened it before. And if you
had read Sunzi, you would understand more about this kind of declarations.

Strategy is like trade. You have to learn others culture to be able to
understand and deal correctly!

So!! This time, let's have fun with french humor. 2 at one time! How lucky
you are! :-)

"Better pump even if nothing happens than not pump and take the
risk something worse would happen!" http://fenghuang.club.fr/shadok4.gif

"If there is no solution, this is there isn't any problem" http://fenghuang.club.fr/shadok3.gif

Juna
August 8th, 2005, 07:43 AM
One of CCP's atrategy: undercover group of commentators working for CCP post on blogs and Internet bulletin boards as 'ordinary netizens'.


http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=24609

Ninjahedge
August 8th, 2005, 09:41 AM
Juna, you think other countries, ours included, has not done the same?


You NEVER take a Blog as fact, just as one persons views. If those views are compromised, so is the blog.

laji
August 12th, 2005, 10:12 AM
[QUOTE=Juna]One of CCP's atrategy: undercover group of commentators working for CCP post on blogs and Internet bulletin boards as 'ordinary netizens'.
QUOTE]

Who do you think I am !!!!!!!!


"It's better to mobilise it's intelligence on stupid things,
than to mobilise it's stupidity on intelligent things." http://fenghuang.club.fr/shadok14.gif

BrooklynRider
August 12th, 2005, 10:34 AM
...You NEVER take a Blog as fact, just as one persons views. If those views are compromised, so is the blog.

Which isn't to say that information on a blog is not fact. It's just that blogs are highly editorialized and are not necessarily subject to the same high standards as mainstream media (e.g. The New York Post, Fox News, CNN).

bobby fletcher
August 14th, 2005, 01:43 PM
http://www.factnet.org/cults/Falun_Gong/?FACTNet
Here's a link to Falun Gong's bible. For a quick survey, search for the keyword "fox", and you'll see how much the concept of "fox ghost/sage/spirit" is mentioned:

http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/doc/zflus.doc

Here's a link to an interview of Falun Gong leader Li Hongzhi in 1999, where he talks about Falun Gong's super normal powers and mankind's impending doom from alien invasion. He really is an incredible person:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview3.html

The more I read Juna's post (all that Epoch Times NY articles, Falun Gong vernacular), the more I'm convinced about the poster's intentions.

And me? Well, I'm here to fight ghosts 8-)

Juna
August 14th, 2005, 09:13 PM
the more I'm convinced about the poster's intentions.



What is the intention?

I think my intention is to expose the evil of CCP, and let the people have a clear understanding about the situation in China.

Anout Falun Gong, some reporters have influenced by CCP's evil hatred propaganda, and interpreted Mr. Li's words not correctly, and quoted without context. the reporters mislead readers because of their own prejudice.

Falun Gong teaches people to be good person, to act according to "Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance" . Therefore good for the society, and been awarded by many governments and organizations.
Thousands of the awards here:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/recognition.html

bobby fletcher
August 15th, 2005, 04:56 AM
Juna, do you know Li Hongzhi owns about a million dollars in real estate? He's got a home in Queens, and also another house near Princeton. I read this on a Wall Street Journal, if you are curious I'll dig it out.

bobby fletcher
August 15th, 2005, 05:00 AM
Wow, any blogger Juna doesn't like is now posting for the CCP. This reminds me of Chen Yonglin's "list of spies, informants, and collaborators" - show us the list Mr. Chen and Juna.

Juna
August 16th, 2005, 02:03 AM
If you can find the source, please put it out.

If Master Li wants to be rich, he can ask every falun Gong practitioner gives him one dollar, and every practitioner is willing to give, because the practice has given the practitioners a lot, there are 100 million Falun Gong practitioners, Master Li can be a millionaire easily, but he does not ask the one dollar.

All the books of Mater. Li can be downloaded at www.Falundafa.org freely, do you think he wants to make money this way?

Ninjahedge
August 16th, 2005, 08:51 AM
Juna, if he IS a millionare already, why would he risk losing the "faith" of his following by asking for money outright?

Sometimes when you are trying to be the leader of a social revolution, it is best to keep your money hidden from the eyes of your followers and NOT ask them for any for as long as you can.

The amount of people that he would lose for the $1 request might be more than he could buy with what he was given.

laji
August 16th, 2005, 11:14 AM
What is the intention?
I think my intention is to expose the evil of CCP, and let the people have a clear understanding about the situation in China.

Any people who looks at how was CCP 30 years ago, and the actual
situation will think the exact opposite of you, especially when looking at US
gov, or history.

You can't look at why CCP brings more good than bad,
on the contrary to your great governements that only brought us bad.
(And ask american indians and blacks how good has been your democracy
with them. Genocide for the former, slavery for the latter! cooool!)

Communism is dead. As is war against communism.
Don't try do hide anti-chinese propaganda behind the "over-now" war
against communism.

But I'm gonna be kind with you and give you stuff that will make
you confortable in your belief: http://www.munrolink.com/aboutbo.htm



Falun Gong teaches people to be good person, to act according to "Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance" . Therefore good for the society, and been awarded by many governments and organizations.
Thousands of the awards here:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/recognition.html

You know nothing about Falungong. I have myself practiced.
Li HongZhi is a fool, that speaks of aliens and superpowers.
Li thinks he is like a god, greater than Jesus or Mahomet.

If Li hadn't tried to negociate power with CCP, nothing would have
happened. Is that the role of religion "Zhenshanren" to make politics ?

Do you really think CCP had discovered one day that Falungong had
100 million practitionners and decide it was a menace ?

Why didn't the CCP do something before ?

Because of Li's hidden political objectives behind nice teachings (but
unstrustable. XFiles is TV serie. not reality), the mess has happened.
Falungong practitioners were free before his fight with CCP.

Li has developped the victim's culture in his religion, to the point
those people now complain they are oppressed by the french
governement!!!!

Come on.

Read the books and watch VCDs. I DID ! Did you ?
Practice Falungong. I DID ! Did you ?

Qigong is cool, and so are the falungong practitioners.

But propaganda and stories for children aren't. And Li's political objectives,
and manipulation are unscrupulous!!!

Did you see the falungong VCDs ? It hurts your head. Too much
propaganda, worse than CCP's. The sames images repeated 50
times in less than 30 mins!!!

I'd like to give you communist joke, but you would say it is propaganda,
so it will be german. http://fenghuang.club.fr/Octopus.jpg

Ninjahedge
August 16th, 2005, 02:16 PM
laji, you are going off the deep end yourself here you know.

Try not to straw man the argument and bring in a bunch of only causally related items into the argument, it will not work well.

Also, although I do not agree with Juna, please try to be a bit nicer about it, you seem to be yelling a lot... ;)

bobby fletcher
August 16th, 2005, 02:35 PM
If you can find the source, please put it out.

My pleasure. Check with your library for Wall Street Journal archive.

Dated 11/1/99, international section, page A41 and A46, there's an article on Li's wife owning real estate in NJ and NY totalling nearly US$1,000,000. In the article it states most of Falun Gong book/video now is sold out of a Hong Kong company, Falun Fo Fa Publishing Co., set up by Li Hongzhi, where his close followers purchase books in bulk from for redistribution.

WSJ reported the company in HK receives payments from Li's inner circle. Now these folks are in US as well as Li, why do you suppose the money has to make a trip to Hong Kong? That's called money laundering I believe.

laji
August 17th, 2005, 11:55 AM
laji, you are going off the deep end yourself here you know.

Try not to straw man the argument and bring in a bunch of only causally related items into the argument, it will not work well.

Also, although I do not agree with Juna, please try to be a bit nicer about it, you seem to be yelling a lot... ;)

Yes right, I'll be nicer (But he should stop making us loosing our face)

I just got something about Juna's way of viewing things. His prefered
source epoch times (DaJiYuan), has an entry in wikipedia. In the section Criticism:

"One of the biggest criticisms of The Epoch Times is that the paper always
try to cast news stories from mainland China in a negative light, even the
most positive ones, by using selective evidence and opinionated
commentaries
[...]
Epoch Times is confesses to making one-sided, biased reviews, since it
deems the other side of the coin absolutely unnecessary for its primary
function, which is not to report news objectively, but to cast "Communist
China" in the worst light possible"

So this explains that, and why Juna can't see China as it is, or what is
good in CCP, or at least the progress they've made.

What is funny is this his him talking about propaganda ...

Then, as I'm a nice person, a funny carton, because any serious
should balanced by unserious (Is that yinyang ?)

"Creative lemmings" http://fenghuang.club.fr/Lemings2.jpg

Juna
August 17th, 2005, 11:52 PM
Dated 11/1/99, international section, page A41 and A46, there's an article on Li's wife owning real estate in NJ and NY totalling nearly US$1,000,000.

About the estate, I know it clearly, a rich practitioner thought that Master.Li lives in a house that near an airport, the noisy environment might bother their rest, so he wanted to send the real estate to master.Li, however he didnot contact Master Li, but his wife. At first, he was refused, but after he insisted to do this for Master Li, she accepted the present without the agreement of master Li, so the real estate was under the name of her. Later Master Li knew this, and asked his wife to send back the present, at last the real estate went back to its original owner.

However, certain reporter found her name owning the real estate before the present was sent back.
This is the fact.

Juna
August 17th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Do you really think CCP had discovered one day that Falungong had
100 million practitionners and decide it was a menace ?

Why didn't the CCP do something before ?



In August 2001 a Washington Post reporter interviews a Chinese government advisor who reveals three ingredients in the crackdown on Falun Gong… The first is state sanctioned violence, the second is brainwashing and the third and most important is propaganda to turn public opinion against the group. "Each aspect of the campaign is critical," he said. "Pure violence doesn't work. Just studying doesn't work either. And none of it would be working if the propaganda hadn't started to change the way the public thinks. You need all three."

-Phillip Pan, Washington Post, “China Systematically Eradicating Group”

The Chinese communist authorities started a nationwide crackdown on Falun Gong on July 20th, 1999. At that time, several hundred contact people of Falun Gong got arrested. On July 22, the Chinese authorities openly denounced Falun Gong as an illegal organization. After that, the Chinese authorities utilized all the state-control propaganda and organization machines to attack and suppress Falun Gong. At that time, the central leaderships headed by Jiang Zemin felt that denouncing Falun Gong as an illegal organization was still not enough for them to use legal means to crack down on Falun Gong. Therefore, the authorities declared Falun Gong as a cult in a meeting held in last September, and ordered the National People's Congress to draft the "law against cults" in order to further crack down on Falun Gong.

- Hong Kong Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy

The major content of this "law against cult" is to call on all levels of political and legal organizations to outlaw cult organizations and stop cult activities. Meanwhile, it requires all levels of governments to mobilize and organize the whole society to prevent the development of cults. …whether or not a religious group or a spiritual movement is a cult is completely up to the decision of the central authorities of the Chinese communist authorities.

- Hong Kong Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy

Juna
August 18th, 2005, 12:17 AM
That's called money laundering I believe.

that is only your imagination.

All of master Li's book are free to be downloaded at www.falundafa.com , remember this, this is not imagination, but the fact.

If you want to make money by your books, do you put your books online free?

Juna
August 18th, 2005, 12:28 AM
I have practiced Falun Gong for years. I think I have enough experience to say if the practice is good.

Juna
August 18th, 2005, 12:48 AM
Juna, if he IS a millionare already, why would he risk losing the "faith" of his following by asking for money outright?

If my teacher is wealthy is that mean I'm not going to practice. If my teacher was poor am I going to practice because he fits my notions of how a teacher should be? Am I suppose to distinguish between a wealthy person and poor person?
As a Falun gong practitioner, I can say I never give Master li one cent. but I really get a lot from practicing.

Ninjahedge
August 18th, 2005, 08:47 AM
If my teacher is wealthy is that mean I'm not going to practice. If my teacher was poor am I going to practice because he fits my notions of how a teacher should be? Am I suppose to distinguish between a wealthy person and poor person?
As a Falun gong practitioner, I can say I never give Master li one cent. but I really get a lot from practicing.

You missed the point entirely.

It is not a question of him being rich or poor, but if the guy is saying power is wrong, power corrupts, and control is also wrong, you cannot, even if you wanted to, seperate money from power.

If he HAD THE ABILITY to say "gimme a dollar" from his congregation (lets face it, this is a religion, not just an anti-governmental activist group) and they were to give it to him as your posts suggest, that is an indication of power. It is an indication of a heirarchical structure of leadership akin to the very structure he and his cadre are protesting against.

And the point I was making i sthat this early in his bid for power, it would not do well to do something like ask for that dollar for risk of disenfranchising a good percentage of his following, and remove frince element support for his positions.



BTW, I really do not care if you have been practicing anything for years. It does not lend creedance to your arguement by saying you are a practicioning member.

I will not believe any more in Dianetics just because someone who has been practicing it for 10 years comes up and tells me about it.

laji
August 18th, 2005, 10:47 AM
You missed the point entirely.
I will not believe any more in Dianetics just because someone who has been practicing it for 10 years comes up and tells me about it.

Yes you are right.

Though, I have practiced, and I know lot's of people that practice falungong,
even in china (!!!) I can assure you falungong's Qigong brings lot's of good and peace to you.

And it is true CCP is paranoid about falungong practitioners now! They even
send old grand ma's to jail for few days just to scare them!!! Anyway, it
doesn't change anything, many people still do practice falungong in China,
just they hide a bit.

But this is Mr Li's fault. Before his try to negociate power with CCP,
falungong was accepted by CCP and there was no problem.
Religion is religion. Politic is Politic.

Good points in falungong are:
1) In the line of chinese traditions, Qingong, Daoist, Buddhist
2) Goog principles Zhen Shan Ren

The points I don't like in falungong are
1) Their Guru, that I will never admire or venerate (Do you know Rael ? He
is funnier than Li hongzhi)
2) Unbelievable stories about superpowers and aliens (Falungong principles
are Zhen Shan Ren, Zhen means Truth, but the truth is out there:-) )
3) The victim's culture that has been developed (this is awful!!!)
4) Constant propaganda (hurts my head too much)
5) Political use of practitioners

Anyway one doesn't have to be falungong to obtain the good points it!
Be Taoist and read Laozi, Zhuangzi, Huainanzi ... and practice Qigong.


"Man : Do you know how I understood you only existed in my mind ? You didn't get any older for 30 years!
Monster: It only prooves I have a good facial cream"
http://fenghuang.club.fr/Crazy.jpg

Juna
August 18th, 2005, 11:22 AM
Yes you are right.


5) Political use of practitioners


One thing you have been fooled, Falun Gong has no political agenda, no political purpose.

Master li never have interest in political power.

Ninjahedge
August 18th, 2005, 11:55 AM
One thing you have been fooled, Falun Gong has no political agenda, no political purpose.

Master li never have interest in political power.


You ARE funny.

bobby fletcher
August 18th, 2005, 01:05 PM
One thing you have been fooled, Falun Gong has no political agenda, no political purpose.

Master li never have interest in political power.

Falun Gong was not banned in China until the old generation of CCP cadres tried to use it to regain political power in their attempt to "make god". Why did the old red guards secretly organize 10,000 Falun Gong practioners to besiege government compound and demand official religious status for Falun Gong?

Many people don't realize this, officially recognized religion in China comes with political appointments (and power).

bobby fletcher
August 18th, 2005, 01:11 PM
However, certain reporter found her name owning the real estate before the present was sent back.
This is the fact.

Or Li returned the "gift" after being exposed?

There you go again, always blaming the reporters. Do you have any credible evidence to show us? Or you are just saying things without proof?

Remember I've demonstrated my facts with credible reports from independent western media, not CCP propaganda. I would appreciate it if you show some proof of your facts, not Falun Gong propaganda.

bobby fletcher
August 18th, 2005, 03:54 PM
You ARE funny.

I think it's rather SAD that Juna doesn't realize he/she is doing the work for someone else's bidding for political power.

Edward
August 18th, 2005, 04:37 PM
... Juna doesn't realize he/she is doing the work for someone else's bidding for political power.
It seems in general, in bidding for political power, anything goes - money, sex, religion.

Ninjahedge
August 18th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Juna, here is the contradiction.

If a religion is trying to practice, and the government does not allow it, if it still tries to practice it is going AGAINST the government.

Therefore, it is political.

It is trying to change the way things are run to accomodate its own direction and goals. If that isn't playing politics, I do not know what else you could call it.

With a strait face that is.

Juna
August 19th, 2005, 07:15 AM
Juna, here is the contradiction.

If a religion is trying to practice, and the government does not allow it, if it still tries to practice it is going AGAINST the government.

Therefore, it is political.


It seems like this, if some persons want to speak out, and the government does not allow it, if these persons still try to speak out, it is going against the government. Therefore, it is political.

The logic does not recognize human hights at all.

If the government is controled by a evil party, like CCP, people have to bear the evil persecution?

This is in the range of human rights.

Juna
August 19th, 2005, 07:43 AM
besiege government compound and demand official religious status for Falun Gong?

Many people don't realize this, officially recognized religion in China comes with political appointments (and power).

Where did you get this?

the fact about the event is here:
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2606.html

only appealed for the freedom of practice! Not every one wants the political power.

Ninjahedge
August 19th, 2005, 10:14 AM
It seems like this, if some persons want to speak out, and the government does not allow it, if these persons still try to speak out, it is going against the government. Therefore, it is political.

Yep. If you speak out against the government, or go against it's written law, it is a political statement in and of itself.

I know you are trying to contradict me by saying this, but you seem to be shooting yourself in the foot here.


The logic does not recognize human hights at all.

Um, you may want to use a logical statement to say what logic does. Since when is saying something is political a denial of human rights? you are combining issues that have little direct relationship.


If the government is controled by a evil party, like CCP, people have to bear the evil persecution?

Ah, now you have taken the route of calling the opposing party "evil". You are playing emotional war now with your somantics. They are the EVIL badguys, and no matter what they do, it will all be bad because they are EVIL.

This is not a disney flik here. What they are doing may be considered unjust or undesirable, but calling the entire orginization "evil" is propaganda.


This is in the range of human rights.

ANOTHER nonsequitor. You are holding up the orphaned child of Human Rights up as if it was the answer to all debate.

You even lambast logic as if it were out to kill this orphan child because you have no counter arguement to the statement presented.

Instead of just admitting that (in your opinion) even though your group does tread the waters of politics, it was never its intension to do so directly. Instead of saying that it is not looking to force their issues, but simply to be acnowledged, you deny ANY political involvement stating that the holy savior orphan child Human Rights makes this a transending issue that somehow removes it from the relegation of political manipulation.

Come back to earth and discuss the issue Juna, you are starting to preach rather than discuss.

laji
August 19th, 2005, 10:39 AM
One thing you have been fooled, Falun Gong has no political agenda, no political purpose.

Master li never have interest in political power.

In France, when that was the year of China (with the Eiffel Tower dressed
in red, that was beautiful! But french people thought that was communist
red! Sooo funny they don't know red color is the color of joy in China),
Falungong tried to interrupt the ceremonies made for the chinese new year because Hu JinTao came.

This is political action.

It has nothing to do with Qigong, or learning how to be ZhenShanRen.

Of course, police came to prevent them from putting the mess.

Now they have one more argument to say that they are oppressed by
French government.

How can it be those people don't respect Kongzi's learnings. Don't they have a face ?

Well, I don't want to say too much bad about practitioners, because this
is just they are manipulated.

But I think the way they behave doesn't respect ZhenShanRen, so I feel sad
for them.

"Man: Sweet Heart! Someone for you. He says he knows you from 5 years ago!
Kid: Daddy! exactly my age!"
http://fenghuang.club.fr/Alien2.jpg

laji
August 19th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Li Honzhi 1998 Lectures in Geneva, Switzerland
Real source from Falungong site!!! http://www.falundafa.org/book/chigb/swiss.htm
As it is in chinese, I give you another source http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2922644
BBC should be credible source. Read the [Bizarre Claims] section,
and the [Li's Personal Beliefs] section. Have fun!

In answering "why homosexuals are bad people and homosexuality is immoral",
Li says: "They do not deserve to be humans. I must tell you all, without me
passing this Fa, the gods will first destroy the homosexuals. Not by me, but
by gods."

In responding to the question of human's inability to
control its destiny, he insists that "people want democracy, but they never
ever have had any control. Gods manipulate everything in the world."

In the same breath, Li also derogatorily claims that "science is a
religion, [it] destroys morality, that the ozone hole above the Antarctic
is a windows for gods to release poisoned gasses from earth, and computer
users are numbered by Aliens"

Juna, can you dare seriously say that this respect ZhenShanRen principles !!??!!

"Dinosaur: He says he's a lemming, that he comes from the future, and that we should follow him! "
http://fenghuang.club.fr/Lemings.jpg

Schadenfrau
August 19th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Do you realize that obsessively posting all of this nonsense about Falun Gong really makes you look like a brainwashed cult member?

ZippyTheChimp
August 19th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Absolutely.

I'm the moderator here, and I don't even read this thread anymore.

bobby fletcher
August 19th, 2005, 01:01 PM
Where did you get this?

the fact about the event is here:
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2606.html

only appealed for the freedom of practice! Not every one wants the political power.

Oh please, asianresearch.org is a Falun Gong mouthpiece. I've given you the curtisey of not citing propaganda, only mainstream western media (WSJ, ABC AU). Please don't insult people's sensibility.

I saw the report of Falun Gong demanding official religious status on ABC News. Here are more sources:

"Falun Gong shocked the government in April when over 10,000 members staged a surprise, silent protest outside Beijing's Zhongnanhai leadership compound to demand official recognition." - Reuters 11/19/99

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln270/FalunGong/10.htm

"But Falun Gong deeply unsettled China's rulers when 10,000 of its adherents materialized on April 25 in front of the compound that houses President Jiang Zemin and other leaders. The rally, held to demand official recognition for the group, demonstrated that this obscure spiritual sect was in fact a highly organized movement with an international network capable of mobilizing thousands of people and putting them under the noses of China's top leaders without a whisper of warning."

People, above article is from New York Times, IMO brings a balanced view of Falun Gong's role in modern Chinese political history (some might even say modern US foreign policy).

Juna
August 21st, 2005, 11:18 AM
I'd like to point out, before April 25, 1999 the police had arrested some Falun Gong practitioners for no reason in Tianjin. The practitioners asked the Tianjin government to release the arrested, but the police refused, and told the practitioners that this matter only could be solved by the central government.

Under this condition, what should Falun Gong practitioners do? do nothing? Some practitioners were suffering in detaintion, and the persecution would continue if no response.

Therefore sb wanted to appeal to the central government, hoped the leaders would help to solve the problem. That is the reason of the event.

It was not a protest, it was appeal to the government that is allowed by China constitution.

At that time, there were 100 million Falun Gong practitioners, only 10,000 went to appeal, is it too much?

Ninjahedge
August 22nd, 2005, 12:21 AM
You are missing the point.

Again.

The point was not the appropriateness of the number of people, but that 10K people could be called up to show up on such short notice.

Also, that your group is forcing its ideas and ideals to be heard, and TRYING to get them to be followed by government agencies and workers.

And you kep saying that they are in no way politically oriented.


What do these actions make them? Spontaneously creative? Come on!

All most of us here would like to get you to see is that no matter how bad the acts that are committed by one entity are, you should NEVER believe what somone else has to say just because they are against them.

There are no real opposites in politics. Sometimes enemies differ only slightly, and they both use hatred of the "other guy" as a way of controling you, the people.

SO open up your eyes and do your own reading on this. Stop following sites like Asianresearch just because they tell you things you want to hear. Be your own person.

BrooklynRider
August 22nd, 2005, 08:31 PM
Surely there is some OTHER news from China?

A new rice dish? The latest baby girl adopted by gay American couples? A switch from ugly, flat, black and plastic shoes to a sensible wedge or pump?

BrooklynRider
August 22nd, 2005, 08:33 PM
Anyone know how many adult Wongs are looking for girlfriends in China?

Ninjahedge
August 23rd, 2005, 09:17 AM
Anyone know how many adult Wongs are looking for girlfriends in China?

2


But you know what they say about two Wongs.......

bobby fletcher
August 23rd, 2005, 01:28 PM
before April 25, 1999 the police had arrested some Falun Gong practitioners for no reason in Tianjin.

The arrests in Tianjin happened for no reason? Are you sure you are being truthful? It's not benevolent to spread lies, you know? Even an ordinary person without supernormal power can see thru your propaganda 8-)

I'm going to give you an opportunity to choose the right path, before I smack you again with the facts on what led to the '99 arrests in Tianjin that started all this bruhaha... Does Professor He ring a bell?

Juna
August 24th, 2005, 11:08 AM
The arrests in Tianjin happened for no reason? Are you sure you are being truthful? It's not benevolent to spread lies, you know? Even an ordinary person without supernormal power can see thru your propaganda 8-)

I'm going to give you an opportunity to choose the right path, before I smack you again with the facts on what led to the '99 arrests in Tianjin that started all this bruhaha... Does Professor He ring a bell?

It is more correct to say no good reason or no legal reason.

The practitioners went to a institute to ask the editors there to correct the libel article they published in a newspaper peacefully.
According to the policy of China at that time, the media should not libel Qigong practice.

Juna
August 24th, 2005, 11:14 AM
Oh please, asianresearch.org is a Falun Gong mouthpiece.
Are you saying All the media that tell sth true is Falun Gong's?

Falun Gong has no membership, no name list, no capital, there are many Falun Gong practitioners, maybe some of them are working in certain media, and you grant the media as Falun Gong's, is it rational?

Ninjahedge
August 24th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Juna, please state the charges they were brought up on, and maybe an article addressing this from some other source than what you have been posting here (Say the NYT or CNN or the BBC).

Otherwise I will just be waiting for the information Bobby presents.


You have to realize that when you are arguing a point like this, you have to have some other sources to back it up or any points you make will either be torn to shreds, or just plain ignored.

Stick to the core of your issue and bring out the whole story whenever you bring something up. They might have been treated unfairly, but "good reason" might just be a matter of opinion.

Ninjahedge
August 24th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Are you saying All the media that tell sth true is Falun Gong's?

Absolute negative. The opposite of the statement cannot be viewed as a logical confirmation of the positive.

You cannot say that just because other stations do not follow them that that is somehow proof that the ones you posted don't either.

You are mushing your arguements together. All stations that tell the truth do NOT follow Falun and the stations that DO do not tell the whole truth.


Falun Gong has no membership, no name list, no capital,

Then how do they afford all this? Oh yeah, it is off the books. So things like "gifts" just appear out of nowhere until someone reports on them..... ok.


there are many Falun Gong practitioners, maybe some of them are working in certain media, and you grant the media as Falun Gong's, is it rational?

The media that supports falun, is run by practitioners of Falun, and is supported by funds from other "practitioners" in order to promte Falun IS Faluns.


You are going to tell us it belongs to Pat Robertson?

bobby fletcher
August 24th, 2005, 05:14 PM
The media that supports falun, is run by practitioners of Falun, and is supported by funds from other "practitioners"


You said it. And how is anyone going to follow up with the story? Falun Dafa Association of NY (IMO the puppet master behind Epoch Times NY) claims thousands death, yet Aministy International's number doesn't even come close, and said AI can't vouch for ET's report.

Look at this one Juna posted from the closed thread. AI's report on electric baton utterly destroys Epoch Time's claim that eletric baton burned off someone's face:



Gao Rongrong Tells Story of Torture on Video Before Her Death
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-22/31481.html


http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/terror_trade_times/ttt_4.htm
"'Stop the beating... electric batons don't leave scars'
"Roberto", a 50-year-old university professor, felt the hail of sticks subside as the Zairian officer commanded his men to stop the beating.
Not because the officer suddenly saw his men were out of control. And not because he had been overcome by a sudden wave of compassion. But because, in the officer's own words, "it will leave scars and we will get complaints from Amnesty International."
Instead, he ordered his men to use an electroshock baton."

Juna
August 24th, 2005, 09:01 PM
Using electric baton can choose the different amount of the current, if the current amount is big enough, the strike will leave burnt scar.

bobby fletcher
August 25th, 2005, 02:39 AM
It is more correct to say no good reason or no legal reason.
Wow, by just throw around a few Falun Gong BS, I can make you change your tune? Falun Gong is powerful.


The practitioners went to a institute to ask the editors there to correct the libel article they published in a newspaper peacefully.
According to the policy of China at that time, the media should not libel Qigong practice.
Chinese law also said no mobbing, but that didn't stop the Falung Gong practioners from using group antagonism to intimidate local newspaper did it?

Here's an article from Asia Times detailing what happened in Tianjin that ignited all this, when a college professor wrote an op-ed criticizing Falung Gong, after a student went crazy from practicing Falun Gong:

http://atimes.com/china/CA27Ad01.html

Falungong followers have told me that they were particularly concerned about Prof He because "he spoke for some one else, he represented the voice of someone in the government who was against the Falungong and had long prepared for the crackdown". "Nonsense," replied Prof He when I confronted him with the Falungong explanation. "If I had the support of the central government I wouldn't have been writing in an obscure Tianjin weekly but in the [official party organ] People's Daily."

The motivations for his article were simple: his best student, whom he loved like a son, had gone insane by practicing Falungong. He felt a moral obligation to warn other youths about the discipline, the more so because he felt he had done little when the young man had started practicing. He had thus embarked on his solitary campaign, and said it had taken him months to get his article published.

Surprisingly though, the Tianjin magazine did not give in to the Falungong demands in March 1999, and even more surprisingly, the police intervened to stop the protest. A scuffle between police and demonstrators ensued in which, for the first time, some Falungong followers were arrested. This, in turn, prompted the April 25 protest, when the Falungong demanded it be recognized as a religion and that Prof He be punished.

bobby fletcher
August 25th, 2005, 03:02 AM
Otherwise I will just be waiting for the information Bobby presents.

Here's the Asia Times backgrounder on the Falun Gong incident, IMO it's a great read:

http://atimes.com/china/CA27Ad01.html

up until July of that year when the sect was banned, Falungong was free. Every day, in almost every park in Chinese cities, there were groups of devotees practicing their morning rites.

But that April 25 the Falungong wanted more than that. They wanted to be fully recognized as a religion.

Previously, they had been officially under the state's sports administration, like many other disciplines based on the ancient Chinese breathing exercise called Qigong. A promotion to one of the official religions of China, like Buddhism, Taoism, and Catholicism, would elevate the Falungong leadership to the formal Chinese People's Consultative Conference, headed by Li Ruihuan, number four in the communist hierarchy, and thus closer to the heart of Chinese power.

Juna
August 25th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Asia times bases in Hong Kong, under CCP's control. Actually, it is the mouthpiece of CCP.

It mentions the self-immolation in Tiananmen Square, this has been known to the whole world, that was staged by CCP.

People can easily understand this by watching CCTV's video--but slow down the speed, here:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self-immolation.html

Juna
August 25th, 2005, 10:55 PM
the police intervened to stop the protest. A scuffle between police and demonstrators ensued in which, for the first time, some Falungong followers were arrested. [/font]

This is a lie, the world has known Falun Gong practitioners are peaceful.


“Jiang’s efforts to downplay criticism for his handling of Falun Gong and stifle support for the practice in other countries looms large on his foreign relations agenda. In fact, it dominates that agenda on many fronts.”

– Dr. Shiyu Zhou, Professor at Rutgers University

"Jiang has mobilized a Mao-era mass movement against [Falun Gong…] Yet, the most severe criticism leveled at Jiang’s handling of the Falun Gong is that he seems to be using the mass movement to promote allegiance to himself.”

– Excerpt from a July, 2000 article by CNN’s Senior China Analyst, Willy Wo-Lap Lam

Juna
August 25th, 2005, 11:07 PM
Why Jiang launched the evil persecution?
“Originally, many China watchers believed the number of people practicing Falun Gong – 70-100 million by the Chinese government’s own estimate in 1998 – was viewed as a threat by Communist Party leader, Jiang Zemin. Over the last three years, however, much information has been brought to light suggesting that Jiang’s obsession with “eradicating” Falun Gong is more deeply rooted in the personal fears and ambitions of Jiang himself. For Jiang, it is a personal crusade, and one upon which he has banked his entire political career.”

-- Dr. Yingnian Wu, UCLA



Interesting article here:
http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/18/willy.column

Juna
August 25th, 2005, 11:13 PM
up until July of that year when the sect was banned, Falungong was free.

As a highly visible event and one that was unprecedented in post-Tiananmen Square Massacre Beijing, the gathering of 10,000 practitioners of Falun Gong around the central government compound in China’s capitol on April 25, 1999 was viewed by many as the key turning point in Jiang’s stance on Falun Gong.

Actually, the events of April 25 proved to be a major turning point in how Jiang proceeded with the persecution of Falun Gong, but they were not a turning point in his stance on Falun Gong itself. From the first written attacks that began to appear in state-run newspapers in June 1996 to the mobilization of police and use of violence in Tianjin in April 1999, the persecution of Falun Gong had steadily developed and escalated over a period of three or four years.

The “Zhongnanhai Incident” provided Jiang with an opportunity to escalate the persecution of Falun Gong into a systematic, highly public, nation-wide effort, but judging from the attacks on the practice dating back to 1996, Jiang had decided years before to eradicate the spiritual practice.

BrooklynRider
August 25th, 2005, 11:18 PM
Did he decide to eradicate the "spritual practice" or the attempts to create a "religion" (i.e. a political force)? Spiritual practice and religion are two very separate things.

I wish this country would crack down on religions (or, to clarify, lift any special accomodations and tax breaks). They are all businesses in the end and the sole purpose is to control the behavior of human beings.

Ok - that's all I can stand on China. Let's move on to another country in our whirlwind cavalcade around the deteriorating globe.

We are going to be engaged in a full-scale war with China within the next decade, so what the heck. Screw them.

Juna
August 26th, 2005, 11:06 AM
This old lady is 107 years old now, fooled by CCP. she is in a ceremony joining the evil CCP. She is swaring to fight for the liberation of the whole world .

This kind of evil party cannot really care of the truth, only want to destroy any others who it wants to destroy with any methods, CCP stops at no evil.

It cheats such an old one, because more and more Chinese have resigned from CCP, so CCP eagerly collect new blood.

How sad!


http://www.renminbao.com/rmb/article_images/2005-8-22-050822ccp.jpg

Ninjahedge
August 26th, 2005, 01:29 PM
This old lady is 107 years old now, fooled by CCP. she is in a ceremony joining the evil CCP. She is swaring to fight for the liberation of the whole world .

This kind of evil party cannot really care of the truth, only want to destroy any others who it wants to destroy with any methods, CCP stops at no evil.

It cheats such an old one, because more and more Chinese have resigned from CCP, so CCP eagerly collect new blood.

How sad!

What is sad is how many emotional wordings you used to try to say something without providing a single bit of factual background.

Do me a favor, look up the definition for the word "propaganda" and memorize it.

Also, you need to work on your grammar. You have to realize that in order to convince people that you are right without providing any factual evidence, you really need to be a smooth talker.

bobby fletcher
August 26th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Asia times bases in Hong Kong, under CCP's control. Actually, it is the mouthpiece of CCP.


Prove your accusation with some evidence. The fact you are only able to quote Falun Gong websites and Falun Gong propaganda is clear evidence where you stand.

What Asia Times said can be corrobrated by other mainstream media outlets. Wall Street Journal won a Pulitzer for its reporting of Falun Gong crack-down in China, and the political undercurrent of this incident. Please note Falun Gong's tactics in bullying others thru group antagonism in China, is totally different than what we see in US.

Are you going to accuse WSJ of being under CCP's control too? This article is actually critical of the Chinese government:

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2001/international-reporting/works/falungong9.html

By early June, the number of protesters outside Beijing TV had grown to 2,000 – all peaceful and orderly but shocking to authorities in Beijing, which hadn't seen a significant demonstration since the student protests in Tiananmen Square a decade earlier. With the ninth anniversary of those demonstrations rapidly approaching -- still a sensitive time on China's political calendar -- leaders ordered the television station to end the Falun Dafa protest at any cost.

The station quickly complied. To show goodwill, it handed out 2,000 boxed lunches and promised to air a sympathetic portrayal of the group. The next day, the show ran as promised, the protests dispersed and quiet returned to the Chinese capital.

Mr. He was incensed at the acquiescence. He did more research and found out that the party had regularly yielded to Falun Dafa protesters. Several media outlets -- estimates range as high as 14 -- had been besieged by Falun Dafa adherents angry at reports casting doubt on its claim to foster good health through exercise. In almost every case, the media had backed down, printing or airing apologies to Falun Dafa.

...

Falun Dafa enjoyed a banner year in 1998. Though its founder, Mr. Li, had emigrated to the U.S., he returned often to coordinate activities and stayed in close contact with practitioners through a tightly knit organization. Critics such as Mr. He continued their pinprick attacks, but the party's do-nothing policies coupled with Falun Dafa's militancy had marginalized them.

"The government was mostly supportive of us," says Zhang Erping, a Falun Dafa spokesman who lives in New York. "Many top leaders seemed to support us."

This impression was understandable but wrong. Most of China's leaders didn't accept or agree with Falun Dafa; their crude governing apparatus had simply kept them in the dark. That was about to change, not because leaders had become wiser, but because Falun Dafa was to make a tactical mistake.

As 1998 wound down, Mr. He decided to write a short commentary for a small student magazine called Science and Technology Knowledge for Youth. The article, "Why Young People Shouldn't Practice Qigong," was one of his typical blasts at all forms of qigong, which he said was more suitable to older, less-active people. Halfway through the article, he mentioned Falun Dafa and then, in a key phrase that angered the group, referred to Mr. Li in a mildly derisive term as its toutou, or "boss."

The response came quickly. The day after the magazine was printed, protesters arrived at its offices on the campus of Tianjin Normal University, located about 100 miles east of Beijing. From April 20 to 23, as many as 6,000 occupied the university, demanding a retraction. "The publishers called me," Mr. He says, reaching over to touch his green plastic rotary phone. "And asked me what was going on. I told them that as a science publication, they had better not print a retraction."

The magazine stood firm. Angry Falun Dafa members then made their fateful decision to seek help from the very top echelons of the party.

bobby fletcher
August 26th, 2005, 03:49 PM
This is a lie, the world has known Falun Gong practitioners are peaceful.

Are you going to accuse western reports like Rick Ross, Philip Cunningham, NY's own Danny Schechter of being controlled by the CCP too? Again, this article criticizes the Chinese government, and explains the political struggle that is Falun Gong:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun193.html

Falun Gong, when the full truth is finally known, may turn out to be far more gentle and peace-loving than Aum [Japanese cult that gased the Tokyo subway], but the similarities in the tip of the iceberg that we can see are unsettling. Both groups oppose objective media scrutiny, employing slick public-relations techniques of their own to deflect criticism, and avoid close attention. The earliest Falun Gong rallies in Tianjin and Beijing were designed to intimidate unfriendly media coverage, long before the group was deemed an evil cult and banned.
...
from Beijing's point of view, the mere fact that "Master Li", its No 1 trouble-maker of the moment, resides in the US raises uncomfortable questions. Who expedited the 1996 immigration formalities of the then unknown guru at a time when Chinese were lining up in record numbers at US embassies and consulates to try to get permission to enter the US?
...
In the newly published Falun Gong's Challenge to China, New York media critic Danny Schechter offers an insightful account of how anti-Falun Gong rhetoric, for all its flowery anger, was not initiated by Beijing - which tolerated the sect for a very long time - but by ex-members who had a falling out with the master.


How Falun Gong Harassed Me and My Family, by He Zuoxiu, is one of the earliest texts to criticise Mr Li and his followers, in language that was later co-opted by the Government. More importantly, Schechter also hints that the Communist Party was divided on how to proceed, with Premier Zhu Rongji reportedly sympathetic to the sect (he had met key members) and President Jiang Zemin incensed about it, one of many fascinating loose ends in his report.

This raises questions about the possibility that discord in Zhongnanhai, where the party leadership is based, is one reason for the discord on mainland streets. How else can we understand Beijing's 180-degree turn, going from a pointed lack of interest in a qi gong exercise group, to an unhealthy obsession with obliterating it? If such an impasse existed due to sharply divergent views in the corridors of power, it is eerily reminiscent of the conflict between former party chief Zhao Ziyang and the then premier Li Peng 10 years earlier when the party could not agree on how to handle student unrest. Needless to say, the results, played out for the world to see on Tiananmen Square, were disastrous. So what is the real story? Is Mr Jiang and the party he commands really scared of Falun Gong or are they just irritated by it, using it as a convenient "enemy" to whip the nation into line? Regardless of Mr Jiang's motives, there is no justification for kicking, beating and roughing up suspects. Furthermore, accounts of prison abuse, torture and criminal negligence leading to death are mounting and incriminating. In this respect Beijing has a lot to answer for. On the other hand, the US record in handling apocalyptic groups in the thrall of egotistical, messianic gurus is far from sterling, and shocking abuses, including murder and negligent homicide, have occurred. Yet few, besides defenders of the extremist militias behind the bombing of the federal offices in Oklahoma in 1995, would argue that the US Government is fascist and needs to be overthrown.

Juna
August 26th, 2005, 10:11 PM
Are you going to accuse western reports like Rick Ross, Philip Cunningham, NY's own Danny Schechter of being controlled by the CCP too?

You quoted a lot, but you could not prove that there was a violent conflict between Falun Gong practitioners and the police, so that is still a lie.

At the beginning of the persecution, many media in the world copied CCP's evil propaganda, because the reporters wanted to report but they could not find another resource.

Juna
August 26th, 2005, 11:00 PM
What is sad is how many emotional wordings you used to try to say something without providing a single bit of factual background.

Is this meaningless?
United Nations Association Condemns Chinese Government's Human Rights Violations against Falun Gong Practitioners
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2005/4/21/59918.html

Juna
August 26th, 2005, 11:03 PM
U.S. House of Representatives Unanimously Passes Resolution Urging Chinese Government to Cease Its Oppression of Falun Gong Practitioners in the United States and in China

108th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. CON. RES. 304

CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
Expressing the sense of Congress regarding oppression by the Government of the People's Republic of China of Falun Gong in the United States and in China.

HCON 304 EH


108th CONGRESS

2d Session


H. CON. RES. 304



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
Whereas Falun Gong is a peaceful spiritual movement that originated in the People's Republic of China but has grown in popularity worldwide and is now accepted and practiced by thousands in the United States;

Whereas demonstrations by Falun Gong practitioners in the People's Republic of China and the United States have been peaceful, meditative sessions;

Whereas the Constitution of the People's Republic of China provides to the citizens of that country freedom of speech, assembly, association, and religious belief;

Whereas members of the Falun Gong spiritual movement, members of Chinese pro-democracy groups, and advocates of human rights reform in the People's Republic of China have been harassed, libeled, imprisoned, and beaten for demonstrating peacefully inside that country;

Whereas the Chinese Government has also attempted to silence the Falun Gong movement and Chinese prodemocracy groups inside the United States;

Whereas on June 12, 2003, 38 Members of Congress filed an Amended Brief of Amicus Curiae in support of the Falun Gong at the United States District Court, Northeastern District of Illinois, Eastern Division;

Whereas Chinese consular officials have pressured local elected officials in the United States to refuse or withdraw support for the Falun Gong spiritual group;

Whereas Dr. Charles Lee, a United States citizen, has reportedly been mentally and physically tortured since being detained by Chinese authorities in early 2003;

Whereas the apartment of Ms. Gail Rachlin, the Falun Gong spokeswoman in the United States, has been broken into 5 times by agents of the Chinese regime since the regime banned Falun Gong in 1999 in China;

Whereas over the past 5 years China's diplomatic corps has been actively involved in harassing and persecuting Falun Gong practitioners in the United States;

Whereas on June 23, 2003, Falun Gong practitioners were attacked outside a Chinese restaurant in New York City by local United States-based individuals with reported ties to the Chinese Government;

Whereas 5 Falun Gong practitioners were assaulted outside of the Chinese Consulate in Chicago on September 7, 2001, while exercising their constitutionally protected rights to free speech, leading to battery convictions in Cook County Criminal Court of Jiming Zheng on November 13, 2002, and Yujun Weng on December 5, 2002, both assailants being members of a Chinese-American organization in Chicago, the Mid-USA Fujian Township Association, which maintains close ties with the Chinese Consulate;


Whereas individuals that physically harassed Falun Gong practitioners in San Francisco on October 22, 2000, were later seen at anti-Falun Gong meetings and the Chinese Consulate in San Francisco;

Whereas San Francisco City Supervisor Chris Daly, after receiving complaints that Chinese officials were intimidating his constituents, authored a resolution condemning human rights violations and persecution of Falun Gong members by the Chinese Government;

Whereas Mr. Daly and the other members of the San Francisco City Council subsequently received a letter from the Chinese Consul General in San Francisco, claiming that Falun Gong was an 'evil cult' that was undermining the 'normal social order' in the People's Republic of China, and that Mr. Daly's resolution should therefore be rejected, which it subsequently was;

Whereas in November 2000, the former Mayor of Saratoga, California, Stan Bogosian, issued a proclamation honoring the contributions of Falun Gong practitioners to the Saratoga community, which prompted the Chinese Consulate in San Francisco to write to Mr. Bogosian urging him to retract his support for local Falun Gong activities;

Whereas many local and national media organizations have reported that other local officials across the United States, including the mayors of several major cities, have been pressured by Chinese consular officials to recant statements of support for the Falun Gong;

Whereas journalists have cited fear of hurting trade relationships as the motivation for some local United States officials to recant their support for Falun Gong after receiving pressure from Chinese consular officials; and

Whereas the Constitution of the United States guarantees freedom of religion, the right to assemble, and the right to speak freely, and the people of the United States strongly value protecting the ability of all people to live without fear and in accordance with their personal beliefs: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That it is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the Government of the People's Republic of China should--

(A) immediately stop interfering in the exercise of religious and political freedoms within the United States, such as the right to practice Falun Gong, that are guaranteed by the United States Constitution;


(B) cease using the diplomatic missions in the United States to spread falsehoods about the nature of Falun Gong;

(C) release from detention all prisoners of conscience, including practitioners of Falun Gong, who have been incarcerated in violation of their rights as expressed in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China;

(D) immediately end the harassment, detention, physical abuse, and imprisonment of individuals who are exercising their legitimate rights to freedom of religion, including the practices of Falun Gong, freedom of expression, and freedom of association as stated in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China; and

(E) demonstrate its willingness to abide by international standards of freedom of belief, expression, and association by ceasing to restrict those freedoms in the People's Republic of China;

(2) the President should, in accordance with section 401(a)(1)(B) of the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 (22 U.S.C. 6401(a)(1)(B)), and with the intention of dissuading the Chinese Government from attempting to stifle religious freedom in the People's Republic of China and the United States, take action such as--

(A) issuing an official public demarche, a formal protest, to the Chinese Foreign Ministry in response to the repeated violations by the Chinese Government of basic human rights protected in international covenants to which the People's Republic of China is a signatory; and


(B) working more closely with Chinese human rights activists to identify Chinese authorities who have been personally responsible for acts of violence and persecution in the People's Republic of China;

(3) the Attorney General should investigate reports that Chinese consular officials in the United States have committed illegal acts while attempting to intimidate or inappropriately influence Falun Gong practitioners or local elected officials, and, in consultation with the Secretary of State, determine an appropriate legal response; and

(4) officials of local governments in the United States should--

(A) in accordance with local statutes and procedures, recognize and support organizations and individuals that share the goals of all or part of the local community, including Falun Gong practitioners; and

(B) report incidents of pressure or harassment by agents of the People's Republic of China to Members of Congress, the Attorney General, and the Secretary of State.
Passed the House of Representatives October 4, 2004.

Attest:


Clerk.

END

Juna
August 26th, 2005, 11:11 PM
What is sad is how many emotional wordings you used to try to say something without providing a single bit of factual background.


Don't you think the video of Chinese Central TV is a concrete proof?

People can easily understand this by watching CCTV's video--but slow down the speed, here:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self-immolation.html

bobby fletcher
August 28th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Don't you think the video of Chinese Central TV is a concrete proof?

People can easily understand this by watching CCTV's video--but slow down the speed, here:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self-immolation.html

Yes, people should see this video for themselves, then decide it clearwisdom's propagand is believable. I reviewed the video and I
don't agree with your opinion:

1) Ms Liu was pushed to the ground so fire can be extinguished (stop
drop roll)
2) the item "flew/bounce/whatever" out of her is thin, flemsy on both
ends and folded in the middle, showing the item is not hard, and does
not have a center mass- contradicting Minghui's commentary.
3) The "sling" theory also doesn't stand up, the item had uniform
width thoughout, folded in the middle showing narrow center without
mass, and was well lit - a massive sling that hits a burning person at
high speed would not have had a chance to to be so completely lit.
3) The tossed bottle could have been put back so photo evidence can be
taken to associate an item's proximity to a person. There are also
photos of the bottle on the ground by itself.

This is my opinion, as someone not a PRC citizen and had no contact
with PRC authority, concluded independently while residing in US.
Where's your truth? The fact you appear to be a Falun Gong follower
indicates you are not impartial.

Juna
August 29th, 2005, 06:52 AM
This is my opinion, as someone not a PRC citizen and had no contact
with PRC authority, concluded independently while residing in US.
Where's your truth?

This is what you say, but ....

I think the readers should have a look at the video, and judge by themselves.

Ninjahedge
August 29th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Is this meaningless?
United Nations Association Condemns Chinese Government's Human Rights Violations against Falun Gong Practitioners
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2005/4/21/59918.html

You did not POST THIS.

Also, I never SAID that what EITHER was doing is correct. YOU are being duped into following what you consider to be the lesser of two evils because it aligns more closely with what you think are your own goals.

It is a common tecnique used in countless orginizations to get people to support and follow a leader that is out mor for themselves and their own political and social agendas than anything else.

It is a sign of revolution.

Revolutions usually are not apolitical, and many do not end up making the country better in the long run, short run, or any given time.



So if you want to keep talking about the "EVIL EMPIRE", you will continue to get replies from me criticising your myopic statements.




This is a battle between the Evil Empire and the Devious Cultist. Color it however you like.

bobby fletcher
August 31st, 2005, 06:09 PM
This is a battle between the Evil Empire and the Devious Cultist. Color it however you like.
Actually, this is a battle between the Evil Aliens and the only salvation for mankind's impending doom. You see, China's ex-president Jiang Zeming is but an empty human shell posessed by evil alien spirit from beyond dimension:

Eye witness cited by Clearwisdom:

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2001/5/25/10373.html
"I saw that it was a monster toad with three legs and it was dozens of
times of the size of an ordinary toad. It had spots of black, yellow
and green on its body. Wasn't it the leader of the XX Party in China"

Uncanny id's, proof positive of Jiang's True identity:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1535300_mao150ap.jpg
http://olsen-web.de/desktop_pictures/episode1/small/jaba_1024x768.jpg (http://olsen-web.de/desktop_pictures/episode1/small/jaba_1024x768.jpg)
(Yes, Jaba only has 3 legs)

- The important Truth about animal/alien posession was foretold by
Teacher, repeatedly mentioned in Zhuan Fa Lun and in sharing
conferences:

http://www.falundafa.org/book/­ (http://www.falundafa.org/book/­)eng/doc/zflus.doc

Search with keyword "fox" and you'll see Master Li's reference to
animal/spiritual posession in pages 69, 73, 74, 76, 77, 118, 142, 151, 155, 218.

- Read the interview Master Li granted to Time magazine, you'll know
what an incredible Being He truely is, per his own words:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview3.html (http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview3.html)

ZippyTheChimp
August 31st, 2005, 06:30 PM
http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg.

bobby fletcher
August 31st, 2005, 06:57 PM
Asia times bases in Hong Kong, under CCP's control. Actually, it is the mouthpiece of CCP.

Wow, anyone who doesn't agree with you is speaking for CCP. It's like anyone who disagree with Chen Yonglin is on his McCarthy list (which he refuses to disclose.)

Here's Asia Times' credential. The reporter who wrote the article, Francesco Sisci, is an Italian journalist whom had written extensively on Tiananmen Square Incident critical of Jiang Zeming. Aisa Times used to be part of UK based Manager Media Group, and the manging editors are largely unchanged,
none are Chinese:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/about.html (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/about.html)

Where's your Truth?

(Sorry Zippy...)

Juna
August 31st, 2005, 09:20 PM
It only copies CCP's libel when reporting about Falun Gong, so it is clear it is the mouthpiece of CCP.

Some western media have been influenced by CCP due to political and economic benefit.

Juna
August 31st, 2005, 09:25 PM
The relationship of the CCP and the Terrorist War

I suggest those who care about the Terrorist war read this link, it shows the relationship of the CCP and the Terrorist War:
http://www.geocities.com/china_e_lo...dTerrorWar.html

bobby fletcher
September 1st, 2005, 12:08 AM
Some western media have been influenced by CCP due to political and economic benefit.

Do you have any proof these cited western media have been influced? Or you are just pulling the same old McCarthyism as Chen Yonglin?

Are you sure it's not the aliens?

Eye witness cited by Clearwisdom:

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/arti...5/25/10373.html (http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2001/5/25/10373.html)
"I saw that it was a monster toad with three legs and it was dozens of
times of the size of an ordinary toad. It had spots of black, yellow
and green on its body. Wasn't it the leader of the XX Party in China"

Uncanny id's, proof positive of Jiang's True identity:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/15350...00_mao150ap.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1535300_mao150ap.jpg)
http://olsen-web.de/desktop_pictures/episode1/small/jaba_1024x768.jpg (http://olsen-web.de/desktop_pictures/episode1/small/jaba_1024x768.jpg)

Juna
September 1st, 2005, 08:26 AM
Unfortunately, on the issue of Falun Gong, some Western media blindly quoted the CCP media’s vicious attacking propaganda unquestioningly, which not only shows a lack of basic understanding regarding the nature of the CCP mouthpiece media but also a lack of any shred of humanity and justice for Falun Gong practitioners who are still being brutalized.

We praise the professionalism of Mr. Philip Pan from the Washington Post. After the “Self-immolation” incident took place, he went to Kaifeng, Henan Province, hometown to one of the “self-immolators,” and conducted interviews and investigations. He discovered that the “self-immolator” did not practice Falun Gong, which makes the “Self-immolation Incident” very likely a government-directed hoax. We admire the conscience and courage of Mr. Ian Johnson, Wall Street Journal reporter, for his series of reports on the torture death of Falun Gong practitioner Chen Zixiu. This allowed Western society to understand the brutal persecution taking place in China and to condemn yet another atrocity against innocent people by the CCP after the “Tiananmen Massacre” in 1989.

http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=138&pop=1&page=0

Ninjahedge
September 1st, 2005, 09:09 AM
Juna, you are speaking in the third person.

I do not care what you (pl) think.


I have my own opinions. You (sing) should too.

Ninjahedge
September 1st, 2005, 09:10 AM
PS.


"We" are not amused.

ZippyTheChimp
September 1st, 2005, 09:16 AM
This thread has become an endless soapbox of point-counterpoint. It is no longer newsworthy, and I am moving it to Anything Goes.

Ninjahedge
September 1st, 2005, 09:17 AM
This thread has become an endless soapbox of point-counterpoint. It is no longer newsworthy, and I am moving it to Anything Goes.

Well, you're wrong!!!!

bobby fletcher
October 12th, 2005, 06:17 PM
What happened to all that tough talk and conviction? Come on, it's so obvious Luna did this for political reason, while the Chinese leaders were visiting US.

So much for Truth, Benevolence, Forberance...

Ninjahedge
October 13th, 2005, 09:00 AM
/Me takes shovel away from Bobby.

That's enough digging through crap for you Mr. Arrow Maker.

ZippyTheChimp
October 13th, 2005, 09:13 AM
Juna was banned for spamming other threads, but it may have been temporary, and has not returned.

Seems that despite the derision, Bobby misses Juna.

This thread is dead.