Jets: Queens Stadium

[Stern]

Since the Jets will not be moving to Manhattan's west side I think it would be a good idea to post all articles about a possible move to Queens here as to not confuse it with the discussions about the development of the west side railyards.

New York Daily News:

Jets boost push for Queens field

BY DONALD BERTRAND and BILL HUTCHINSON

The Jets teamed up with political heavyweights from Queens yesterday to boost Flushing Meadows-Corona Park as the best site in the city to build a football stadium.

Jets President Jay Cross and 26 state, federal and local leaders from the borough agreed yesterday that the primo spot in Queens for an 80,000-seat sports complex was a 15-acre parcel in the sprawling park.

"Everything was very positive in the meeting," said Queens Borough President Helen Marshall after discussing the issue with Cross and the politicians in her office for 80 minutes.

Marshall said the next move is to hammer out details for a Jets stadium on the former site of the World's Fair Fountain of the Planets.

"It's a very important issue for Queens," said Marshall, saying that a stadium would boost construction jobs and tax revenue for the borough.

She said the benefits of the stadium appear to outweigh protests that precious green space not be overtaken by concrete.

"We are talking about a portion of the park that is not well used and could really use some help," said Marshall, who was joined at the meeting by Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-Rockaway), Assemblyman Jose Peralta (D-Jackson Heights) and City Councilman John Liu (D-Flushing), among others.

Cross said the Jets have all but given up on a stadium on the West Side of Manhattan after Albany quashed the idea, and have declared other sites in Queens - including the Willets Point industrial area behind Shea Stadium - less attractive.

"We are the New York Jets and we want to have our own stadium. We want to build it as quick as possible," Cross said.

The Jets also are negotiating with the New York Giants to help build an $800 million, open-air stadium they would share in East Rutherford, N.J.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Quip spurs cleanup of Queens fountain

BY DAN JANISON AND WIL CRUZ
STAFF WRITERS

August 26, 2005

In response to an impromptu comment by a fellow elected official, Mayor Michael Bloomberg yesterday ordered the immediate cleanup of the Fountain of the Planets - the site Queens politicians and the New York Jets have targeted for a new stadium.

Bloomberg was in Arverne with Queens Borough President Helen Marshall to announce the creation of a new center yesterday when a reporter asked him about the Jets potentially building a stadium in part of Fresh Meadows-Corona Park.

The mayor was explaining the difficulty of such an endeavor when Marshall jumped in.

"I went to the site. This is the fountains of the something or other," she said. "It is really now just a big pool of stagnant water, with garbage thrown in."

To that, Bloomberg replied: "If it's filled with garbage there will be somebody there this afternoon."

Indeed, the Department of Parks and Recreation a few hours later sent workers to the fountain to gut it out.

The mayor was less assertive, however, in throwing his complete support behind the plan, maintaining his position that replacing parkland could be an obstacle.

"I'd love to see the Jets plan any place in New York rather than across the river," Bloomberg said. "The alienation of parkland is clearly going to be controversial and something that has to be looked at.

"If you take away parkland, the state law is quite clear," he added. "We'd have to come up with parkland someplace else."

A Jets spokeswoman yesterday said the team's plan would replace at least eight acres of parkland. The team is also negotiating with New Jersey officials to build a stadium in the Meadowlands with the New York Giants.

The Jets' lease with the Meadowlands expires in 2008.

Marshall, among other city politicians, have been wooing Jets officials to come back to the city after a 20-year hiatus. She's been pushing for the fountain site, saying the plan could be a win-win for the city: It would bring a professional team back to its early home as well as renovate city land with private funds.

"The place where they're planning to put the stadium is a place that needs rehabilitation and it's gonna be tough for us to get the money to do that," Marshall said yesterday. "This way, we will have something that's positive here."

But some parkgoers this week were opposed to having the stadium built in the Fountain of the Planets area, fearing they'd be displaced to less convenient parkland.

"They could take their stadium elsewhere," said Alberto Hernandez, 21, a restaurant worker who lives in Corona. "This is the only place where we could practice.

"A lot of people depend on this area," he added. "It's close by."

Copyright 2005 Newsday Inc.

[NYguy]

I think the GIANTS are very uneasy about the JETS trying to "usurp" the new Meadowlands stadium from them, and would just as soon see the JETS move to Queens - even if they would lose savings.

[BrooklynRider]

I disagree. At the end of the day, it is all about the bottom line. Any savings or additional revenue they could find would likely be welcome.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Jets: We’d boost not boot soccer

BY WIL CRUZ
STAFF WRITER

August 27, 2005

The Jets said Friday that if they built a new football stadium in Flushing Meadows-Corona Park they would not only replace any parkland taken but also add a little fútbol to boot.

Team officials, who are eyeing a total of about 15 acres around the Fountain of the Planets in Flushing for a proposed 80,000-seat stadium, said Friday that they would replace four soccer fields that would be displaced and renovate the area just south of the fountain.

"I think there's a perception out there that we're just taking the fields and we have no intention of replacing them," said Matt Higgins, vice president of strategic planning for the Jets. "We want to go in the other direction; we want to embrace soccer."

To that end, Higgins said, the team is considering starting an expansion team that would play in the stadium and join Major League Soccer. The professional soccer league has already approved a new franchise, he said, but negotiations haven't begun in earnest.

Price tags for the proposed stadium, new parkland and even the expansion soccer team have not been determined, Higgins said.

Team officials met Tuesday with Queens elected officials, including Borough President Helen Marshall, in the latest bid in a 20-year effort to get Gang Green back in the city. The talks have been only preliminary.

The Jets also are negotiating to share a new stadium with the Giants in the Meadowlands. That deal isn't set in stone as the Giants planned to build a $750-million, 80,000-seat stadium, while the Jets have proposed a 90,000-seat facility that would include include retail and entertainment space.

Higgins said that while the talks with the Giants and New Jersey officials are further along, Queens was still in the picture.

"The rational thing to do if we had abandoned our plans to come back to New York would be to move on," he said. "But we haven't moved on.

"It's for real," he added. "It's not a leverage play."

The effort to build in Queens comes after a failed bid to put a new stadium on the West Side. While Mayor Michael Bloomberg backed that plan, the team has not discussed the Queens proposal with him. The deal also would need state approval for parkland to be used.

Jets officials have begun reaching out to Flushing residents in an effort to win their support, Higgins said.

Park-goers interviewed recently have said they want nothing to do with a new stadium -- new parkland or not.

David Oats, 55, chairman of the Queens Olympic Committee, which supports the Jets coming to the borough but opposes replacing the fountain with a new stadium, said he remained skeptical, even after being told about the team's proposals.

"I don't buy it; I will never buy it, and I don't care if they do that," he said, referring to the plan to replace every acre the Jets use. "This is a park and people use it. We don't want a stadium here."

Staff writer Steve Zipay contributed to this story. Copyright © 2005, Newsday, Inc. (http://www.nynewsday.com/)



Jay Cross and Jets head coach Herman Edwards should just swap careers. Neither is very good in their present jobs.

The Jets have learned nothing from their saga at the Westside railyards. They are falling into the same quagmire of neighborhood opposition, only this time they don't have the full support of Bloomberg who, having escaped the election-year liability of the railyard stadium, doesn't appear too eager to get involved in seizing parkland.

Instead the Jets get support from Helen Marshall, who can't be bothered to learn the name of the place of contention. This has tragedy written all over it.

The Jets should just build the freakin' thing at Willets Point. After stating unequivocally that they would not go to Queens, now they say they can't wait for the junkyards to be cleared. Why not?

Unless of course, all this is merely leverage for negotiations at the Meadowlands

[NYguy]

The Jets should just build the freakin' thing at Willets Point. After stating unequivocally that they would not go to Queens, now they say they can't wait for the junkyards to be cleared. Why not?

Unless of course, all this is merely leverage for negotiations at the Meadowlands


Willetts Pt is a dead issue. Besides, there's more of a concern there about displacing people than there was on the Westside. Not that there was anybody to be removed from the Westside, but we are familiar with the complaints by now.

The deal with New Jersey is that its still pretty much the GIANTS new stadium, even as the state tries to push them to work harder with the JETS. Other than the stadium itself, the biggest problem seems to be with XANADU, which the GIANTS hate and the JETS want to embrace. Stay tuned...


STAR LEDGER

State calls for Giants, Jets to huddle on stadium


August 17, 2005
BY MATTHEW FUTTERMAN


The Giants' latest plan for a new stadium complex in the Meadowlands contrasts starkly with the Jets' proposal for the site.

Just a week ago, state officials were heralding the Jets' plans for a joint stadium and retail complex at the Meadowlands as a major step toward building the NFL's premier destination. But the two sides remain far apart on their proposals both for a stadium and how to develop commercial property around it.

In fact, according to drawings the Giants submitted this week to the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, the team doesn't yet acknowledge the project may become a joint venture, nor does the Giants' latest plan incorporate any of the Jets' design suggestions. The new drawings label the proposed stadium "Giants Stadium" and the surrounding plaza "Giants Plaza."

"Clearly, the plan the Giants gave is dramatically different than the one given to the authority by Jets," said Carl Goldberg, chairman of the sports authority, the state agency that operates the Meadowlands Sports Complex. "They have different visions."

Goldberg said yesterday the sports authority would return the Giants' plans because they lacked details about parking, traffic management and engineering, which the authority needs to continue its evaluation.

But by sending back the plans, state officials said, the sports authority also was telling the Giants to work more closely with the Jets before making another submission.

"When you start a partnership, there will be disagreements," acting Gov. Richard Codey said. "But these two teams need to work harder, meet more often and spend more time in those meetings to get this done."

According to both teams' plans, the new stadium would go in between the current stadium and the Meadowlands Racetrack, but they disagree on key elements:

Location of the Giants' practice facility: The Jets proposed moving the Giants training center and practice fields behind the Meadowlands Racetrack so as not to take up valuable land adjacent to the stadium with a use that would not generate revenue. The Giants prefer to keep the practice fields next to the stadium so there is a seamless flow between training facility and playing field.

Design of the commercial development around the stadium: The Jets want to concentrate the development in two structures -- a hotel and conference center and another building that would house everything from the interactive NFL Experience to football-themed restaurants and shops and the teams' halls of fame. The Giants want to spread the retail facilities around the stadium in a series of buildings of various sizes.

Connections to the adjacent Xanadu retail and entertainment complex: The Jets would integrate the stadium's commercial and retail space with Xanadu, connecting the two projects using a complex built above the planned rail station at the Meadowlands. The Giants propose a simple 400-foot walkway across Route 120.

The size of the stadium: The Jets propose a 90,000-seat stadium, while the Giants remain committed to an 80,000-seat structure.

Giants Chief Executive John Mara declined to comment specifically on his team's plans.

"I'm not going to confirm what we have and have not submitted," he said, "other than to say we've been working closely with the sports authority for some time, submitting various plans to them on a regular basis, and we will continue to do so."

Jets Chief Executive Jay Cross is on vacation this week and has not seen the Giants' latest proposal. Matt Higgins, a Jets spokesman, declined to comment on the Giants' plans.

The two teams have shared Giants Stadium since 1984. Until last week, the Jets were officially committed to moving to New York. But plans to move to the West Side of Manhattan collapsed in June and the team has said it would prefer to stay in New Jersey in a shared stadium, rather than build its own home at an alternative New York site in Queens.

The Giants remain a step ahead of the Jets because the team has already signed a memorandum of understanding, or MOU, with the state to build an $800 million stadium in the Meadowlands.

However, that agreement carries certain obligations that are becoming increasingly burdensome to the team.

For example, unless the Giants receive the Jets' approval for a new stadium and reach an agreement with the developers of Xanadu on a traffic plan by Sept. 15, the state has the right to tear up the MOU.

Also, since the Giants have signed an MOU and have begun a formal approval process, the sports authority expects the team's plans to be more detailed than the conceptual proposal the Jets submitted last week.

"I was looking for a much higher level and complete submission from the Giants," Goldberg said. "The Jets wanted to demonstrate their commitment to the state in a conceptual plan. The Giants were moving forward in a process that would lead to a master plan approval, and a lot higher level of detail was anticipated."

[NYguy]

northjersey.com

Jets consider moving back to Queens

Tuesday, August 23, 2005
By JOHN BRENNAN


The New York Jets will meet with elected officials in Queens today to discuss a possible move back to that borough after a two-decade absence - and a high-ranking Meadowlands official said Monday that the New York Giants are to blame.

George Zoffinger, the president of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, said the Jets' flirtation with Queens is the result of the Giants' reluctance to give the Jets sufficient input on a new, shared stadium in the Meadowlands.

"The Giants are forcing the Jets to look at other alternatives, and that's never a good thing," Zoffinger said. "The ball rests squarely with the Giants, because they are the ones that ignored the Jets and submitted an inadequate document to us last week. The document just doesn't recognize the fact that the Jets want to be truly equal partners in a stadium. "We have an opportunity for an equal stadium for both teams, plus a retractable roof that will attract events like Super Bowls and national political conventions. If we miss this opportunity, it would be a tremendous blow to the state."

Queens Borough President Helen Marshall has persuaded Jets executives to meet with her this afternoon about a potential return to the location it left for the Meadowlands in 1984. The long-shot effort comes less than two weeks after the Jets submitted a detailed proposal for a 90,000-seat stadium to the Giants and to the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority.

"We believe they are serious about this, and I know we are serious," said Alexandra Rosa, Marshall's chief of staff. "There are a lot of unique revenue opportunities here, and you're talking about a great availability of mass transit. We love New Jersey, but there just aren't those same opportunities there."

Giants spokesman Pat Hanlon expressed disbelief at Zoffinger's comments blaming the Giants.

"That's a ridiculous statement by somebody who has not been part of these discussions," Hanlon said in an e-mail reply. "We have stated from the very beginning that our preference is to have the Jets as partners at a brand-new stadium here in the Meadowlands.

"The plans we submitted last week were not intended to be a final proposal on the new stadium. The [sports authority] asked us, in effect, to submit what we had up to that point. Mr. Zoffinger obviously would not be aware of that, since he has not been directly involved in the negotations."

When the Jets began eyeing a new home more than four years ago, principal owner Woody Johnson ignored Queens in favor of an ill-fated dalliance with the more glamorous West Side of Manhattan. But Jets Vice President Matt Higgins said it makes good business sense to listen to a Queens bid.

"I think it's pretty clear that we will do whatever is in the best interests of the New York Jets," Higgins said. "We're definitely intrigued. But we made it quite clear to [Queens officials] that we are continuing in talks with the New York Giants and the state of New Jersey on a new stadium."

No worries

Sports authority Chairman Carl Goldberg said he was not worried about today's meeting.

"I've had a significant number of meetings with Jets personnel over the past couple of weeks, and they seem very sincere about remaining in New Jersey," Goldberg said.

Both the Jets and Giants are eager to work out a joint agreement that might allow the National Football League franchises to start play in a new Meadowlands facility by the fall of 2009. But the teams have yet to agree on the number of seats, the location of the teams' respective practice facilities, the style |of architecture and numerous other details.

Jets owner Woody Johnson has stressed since buying the team five years ago that he wanted the Jets to have their own home for the first time in franchise history.

The team has spent four decades either sharing Shea Stadium with the New York Mets or Giants Stadium with the Giants. Rosa said that with the failure of the West Side plan, only Queens can fulfill Johnson's wish.

"There are a lot of branding opportunities in having your own stadium, and there's also a huge fan base for soccer here because of the diverse population," Rosa said. "That's another potentially lucrative revenue stream for the Jets."

The stadium likely would be constructed near the Mets' current home, at the Fountain of the Planets relic from the 1964-65 World's Fair.

Marshall is offering to turn over that parkland to the Jets in exchange for parkland at another location.

That makes it a more practical alternative than the nearby Willets Point neighborhood, which consists mostly of privately owned auto body shops and salvage yards.

[NYguy]

George Zoffinger, the president of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, said the Jets' flirtation with Queens is the result of the Giants' reluctance to give the Jets sufficient input on a new, shared stadium in the Meadowlands.

"The Giants are forcing the Jets to look at other alternatives, and that's never a good thing," Zoffinger said. "The ball rests squarely with the Giants, because they are the ones that ignored the Jets and submitted an inadequate document to us last week. The document just doesn't recognize the fact that the Jets want to be truly equal partners in a stadium. "We have an opportunity for an equal stadium for both teams, plus a retractable roof that will attract events like Super Bowls and national political conventions. If we miss this opportunity, it would be a tremendous blow to the state."

Giants spokesman Pat Hanlon expressed disbelief at Zoffinger's comments blaming the Giants. "That's a ridiculous statement by somebody who has not been part of these discussions," Hanlon said in an e-mail reply. "We have stated from the very beginning that our preference is to have the Jets as partners at a brand-new stadium here in the Meadowlands.


So if the JETS don't stay on in Jersey, who will be to blame this time, the GIANTS or the state?

[NYguy]

QUEENS CHRONICLE (editorial)

No Flushing Meadowlands

August 25, 2005


The New York Jets’ proposal to dump a stadium in the middle of Flushing Meadows Park is not only ludicrous, but insulting. If Jets owner Jay Cross had proposed building a stadium in the heart of Central Park, he would have been run out of town. Why should Queens be any different? As much as we want the Jets to return to Queens, we hope that our politicians will listen to the public outcry against the plan and end any further discussion of it.

What strikes us as particularly outrageous is that if the Jets are serious about moving back to Queens, where they belong, there is a better alternative right across the street in Willets Point, and they know it. That 48-acre site, now filled with car junkyards and auto parts stores, is set for development by the city. We don’t buy the Jets’ argument that there just isn’t enough time to redevelop the area before its contract runs out in the Meadowlands. If New York City is serious about making a deal with the Jets, they will find a way to make the plan work in Willets Point.

We’re talking about a major stadium, one that would enjoy overwhelming public support if it were to be built in Willets Point. After all, the Jets got their name from the planes flying overhead from LaGuardia and Kennedy Airports in 1963. They moved to Shea Stadium a year later and stayed 20 years.

The Jets officials presented their plan to Borough President Helen Marshall and other elected officials on Tuesday. It calls for building an 80,000-seat stadium at the site of the Fountain of the Planets, smack dab in the middle of the park. It is not near any major roadway and would eliminate at least 15 acres of public parkland. The Jets’ plan calls for using the Shea Stadium parking lot, but that is quite a hike from the proposed stadium location and not practical. There has been mention that the Jets would have to “give back” land elsewhere to the city for parkland. That would be small consolation for the thousands of nearby residents who use Flushing Meadows Park as their backyard on weekends. Many of them are poor, without transportation and have nowhere else to go.

This plan is about as foolish as constructing a whitewater canoeing course at the fountain, which was planned for the ill-conceived NYC2012 Olympic bid. The argument then was it would be left for visitors to use after the Olympics. But regular users of the park aren’t interested in whitewater canoeing or a stadium that is unused most of the year. They prefer soccer fields and open areas to relax with their families.

The Fountain of the Planets, from the 1964 World’s Fair, has a long history. Located along a strip of reflecting pools leading to the Unisphere, it is often strewn with garbage and the water brackish. The site was also used as a fountain for the 1939 World’s Fair, then known as the Lagoon of Nations. Why not restore the fountain, get the water moving and convince the Jets that Willets Point is the only site for them.

Nowhere in the course of discussion on the Jets’ proposal has any money been mentioned. Does the team expect the valuable parkland to be handed over to them? This is a billion-dollar corporation. And we also wonder if the Jets aren’t using this as a bargaining chip for a better deal in the Jersey Meadowlands. The city would be foolish indeed to pursue such a plan when it has the nearby Willets Point land ripe for development. It is a much better location. It is easily accessible by car and public transportation and is a logical location near Shea Stadium.

The borough president has every right and indeed should pursue wooing the Jets back to Queens, but this is the wrong place. Local elected officials, who were enthusiastic about Cross’s presentation, have admitted there has already been a large public outcry against the plan. It does not serve the greater good, especially since it would only be used for about eight home games a year. The mayor, who so adamantly pushed for a West Side Stadium, should once again take the lead and put pressure on the Jets to work with the city for a new home in Willets Point, not in Flushing Meadows Park.

[NYguy]

The Fountain of the Planets, from the 1964 World’s Fair, has a long history. Located along a strip of reflecting pools leading to the Unisphere, it is often strewn with garbage and the water brackish.

Sounds wonderful.


QUEENS CHRONICLE (editorial)

If New York City is serious about making a deal with the Jets, they will find a way to make the plan work in Willets Point.

We’re talking about a major stadium, one that would enjoy overwhelming public support if it were to be built in Willets Point.


Indeed.


Willets Pt. biz blasts Marshall
Out of loop on stadium

BY DONALD BERTRAND
DAILY NEWS


A business group representing most of the businesses in the Willets Point "Iron Triangle" is angered over what they see as a snub by Borough President Helen Marshall.

Last Tuesday evening, the Willets Point Business Association had a sit-down with representatives from Marshall's office and the city at a LaGuardia Airport hotel to discuss development possibilities.

"I told them we want to be part of the process. I told them we were tired of being left in the dark," said Richard Musick, a spokesman for the business group.

"We sat down across from these people and they looked us right in the face and they told us that they would let us know, from here on in, they said, every step of the way, exactly what is going on," Musick said.

On Thursday, he said, he found out that Marshall had invited Jay Cross, the president of the Jets, to Borough Hall to discuss the feasibility of the football team returning to play in Queens.

"They lied to us. They flat-out lied to us," said the former president of the association.

"We are the Rodney Dangerfields of industrial parks. We get no respect," Musick said.

"Helen Marshall said, 'We have a wonderful piece of land where you can build a new stadium.'

"We own our land. Nobody gave her permission to broker our land to the Jets or any other developer," he said.

The meeting with the Jets is scheduled for next Tuesday, said Marshall's spokesman Dan Andrews.

The borough president, Andrews said, "got an inkling" that the Jets might be showing a little movement with regard to their resistance to a Queens option for a new stadium.

Marshall, he said, "would be remiss" to not at least try to interest the Jets.

Marshall "has not excluded anybody," Andrews said.

"She has said consistently with regards to the request for proposals that is out from the Economic Development Corp. that any proposal has to include in it a relocation plan for any business that would be displaced," he said.

"The business community in Willets Point is certainly going to be included in any process ... with regards to building a new Jets stadium," said the spokesman.

Last November, the EDC invited developers to submit "expressions of interest" in the Willets Point peninsula, after the agency had announced a development plan for downtown Flushing, which is just east of the area.

That plan called for "a large-scale development" in Willets Point that "provides a significant economic benefit to the area and transforms Flushing into a true super-regional destination."

[lofter1]

Is this a set up for another "eminent domain" grab here?

If the politicos try it in Willits Point y'all better crank up the Stones' "Street Fightin' Man" as background to the brou-ha-ha.

[normaldude]

I like this plan the best (from NewYorkGames.org, a website run by Brian Hatch).

- The Mets have already announced their new Shea stadium to be built the east of the current Shea stadium.

- So let the Jets build their football stadium where old Shea stadium currently stands (after it gets torn down).

- Acquire the Willets Point properties in piecemeal fashion, with individual offers, to create various parking lots. Parking lots don't need a huge, continuous piece of land. So eminent domain is not needed.

http://www.newyorkgames.org/news/archives/005723.html

[ZippyTheChimp]

Dispersed parking lots/garages create more traffic - "sorry, this lot is full, try the one 4 blocks down."

The USTA uses the existing Shea parking lots.

The acquired property for parking facilities will have to be decontaminated, and in some cases, streets that do not exist will have to be built.

Although this idea would be more acceptable locally than taking parkland, it only makes economic sense if this city has no intention of developing Willets Point. If it is to be developed, it is more efficient to decontaminate the entire area at once, and put in the necessary infrastructure. Eminent Domain will have to be used, but unlike the NY Times site, environmental cleanup is a good court argument.

The Brian Hatch plan also ignores the main sticking point of the Jets - if they don't want to wait for the junkyards cleanup, why would they be willing to wait until the new Mets stadium is completed before work is started on theirs.

[BPC]

This will never happen.

[NYguy]

Is this a set up for another "eminent domain" grab here?

If the politicos try it in Willits Point y'all better crank up the Stones' "Street Fightin' Man" as background to the brou-ha-ha.


Only, if it were Manhattan you'be be hearing a lot more about those complaints. Double standard? I think so.

[NYguy]

I like this plan the best (from NewYorkGames.org, a website run by Brian Hatch).

- The Mets have already announced their new Shea stadium to be built the east of the current Shea stadium.

- So let the Jets build their football stadium where old Shea stadium currently stands (after it gets torn down).

- Acquire the Willets Point properties in piecemeal fashion, with individual offers, to create various parking lots. Parking lots don't need a huge, continuous piece of land. So eminent domain is not needed.

http://www.newyorkgames.org/news/archives/005723.html


If the city does acquire Willets point in piecemeal fashion, the JETS will have long been playing in their new, shared stadium with the GIANTS by the time that's ready for anything. Eminent domain is basically the same thing, just sped up.

The METS plan to put parking in the current Shea site.

[normaldude]

If the city does acquire Willets point in piecemeal fashion

In the piecemeal scenario, I would prefer to leave that up to the Jets. They place the offers, and they own the parking lots.

Overall, I think taking parkland or using private-sector eminent domain (using eminent domain to take from one private entity, and give to another private entity) is pretty controversial. I know that the supreme court recently ruled in favor of private-sector eminent domain (New London vs Kelo), but it's still a very unpopular, controversial thing to do.

So maybe modify the Brian Hatch plan a bit..

- Have the Jets build their football stadium in the location of the old Shea stadium (after it gets torn down).

- The city uses public-sector eminent domain to acquire the Willets Point land for itself, and builds a large 24/7 municipal park & ride facility.

That way, we avoid the controversial aspects of taking parkland or using private-sector eminent domain.

[Dynamicdezzy]

I know this is completely off topic, but i wonder how much it would cost to have this stadium built over the sunnyside yards and have office space over the remaining land (westside).

[ablarc]

That’s a pretty dismal scenario that Brian Hatch cooked up.

Poor Willets Point: from junkyards to parking lots, and intermittently-used ones at that. Is this the best use for any land anywhere?

An alternative: get the Jets and the Mets to gather all the parking for both stadiums into a vast, multi-story garage on that polygonal area just north of the new Shea Stadium (maybe with Xanadu-type retail on ground floor or adjacent, closed when there are games).

http://66.230.220.70/images/post/willets/01.jpg

Then either take Willets Points junkyards by eminent domain, or not.

If it’s taken the city could clean it all up environmentally in a vast coordinated operation, rezone it, and sell off the parcels to developers who agree to build high-density housing (40% affordable) and retail. When the parcels sell, the city gets its investment back.
.

[ZippyTheChimp]

The best plan of all, except (from the Jets' point of view) that they would have to wait until the Mets stadium is completed and the existing stadium demolished, before work could begin on a new football stadium.

The only reason they want the parkland is so construction could begin immediately, in my opinion, an unreasonable position. If this is not just a negotiating ploy for the Meadowlands and the Jets are serious about Queens, then the city should realize that it has the superior bargaining position, and offer alternatives that do not include parkland. If the Jets can't wait a few years, they should conclude a deal with the Giants.

DynamicDezzy: An article (maybe in the Javits thread) mentioned the Sunnyside yards and Aqueduct area as other possible Queens sites.

[normaldude]

..and sell off the parcels to developers who agree to build high-density housing (40% affordable)

Screw that. 100% market rate. Rent control is a cancer.

[TallGuy]

Since the current Yankee Stadium will remain in one form or the other, why not convert it into a stadium for the Jets. Looking at it from overhead, it is obvious it was built for the possibility of hosting football games. You could just build two decks over the current outfield. They did it in Oakland to lure back Al Davis. Then, in 30 years when Yankee Stadium II is deemed old, they can rebuild on the current site yet again.

[BrooklynRider]

...The city uses public-sector eminent domain to acquire the Willets Point land for itself, and builds a large 24/7 municipal park & ride facility...

I am amazed at the cavalier way people toss about stealing other people's property. A new Jets Stadium is not in the "Public's Interest". It is a private enterprise with game seats owned in perpetuity by wealthy individuals and corporations. There is no argument whatsoever for using emminent domain for a new Jets Stadium.

It really is a disgraceful mindset to hold and one that is becoming too prevalent (and always espoused by those who don't own the property to be confiscated).

[mkeit]

All of the renderings of the stadium on the fountain site leave out parking lots.

[BPC]

I am amazed at the cavalier way people toss about stealing other people's property. A new Jets Stadium is not in the "Public's Interest". It is a private enterprise with game seats owned in perpetuity by wealthy individuals and corporations. There is no argument whatsoever for using emminent domain for a new Jets Stadium.

It really is a disgraceful mindset to hold and one that is becoming too prevalent (and always espoused by those who don't own the property to be confiscated).

I agree with you. But the fact of the matter is that the United States Supreme Court takes the opposite position on this issue.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I am amazed at the cavalier way people toss about stealing other people's property. A new Jets Stadium is not in the "Public's Interest". It is a private enterprise with game seats owned in perpetuity by wealthy individuals and corporations. There is no argument whatsoever for using emminent domain for a new Jets Stadium.

It really is a disgraceful mindset to hold and one that is becoming too prevalent (and always espoused by those who don't own the property to be confiscated).I would remind both you and BPC that we are talking about a site that cannot be developed without an environmental cleanup, and that the site itself leaches toxins into Flushing Creek.

21 of the Willets Point junkyards were involved in NY State lawsuit for knowingly discharging toxins into the creek. Several of the companies built a concrete sluiceway to facilitate dumping.

So assuming you two are not just writing off this land as worthless, how would you decontaminate it if the business owners will not relocate?

[normaldude]

I am amazed at the cavalier way people toss about stealing other people's property. A new Jets Stadium is not in the "Public's Interest". It is a private enterprise with game seats owned in perpetuity by wealthy individuals and corporations. There is no argument whatsoever for using emminent domain for a new Jets Stadium.

It really is a disgraceful mindset to hold and one that is becoming too prevalent (and always espoused by those who don't own the property to be confiscated).

I agree. And that's why I said that my favorite choice was Brian Hatch's plan (on the first page of this thread). It avoids the controversy of taking parkland or private sector eminent domain. It's the most neutral, laissez-faire, free markets approach.

On this thread, we seem to have discussed 4 possibilities.

a) Jet's Proposal. Place a Jets stadium where the Fountain of the Planets currently resides.
-- Negative: taking parkland is controversial, and this will face enormous political and public opposition. Mayor Bloomberg doesn't like it, the local community doesn't like it. This proposal seems almost dead-on-arrival.

b) Willets Point Stadium. Use private-sector eminent domain to forcefully buy all the property in the Willets Point area (junkyards & auto shops), clean up the land, give the land to the Jets at cost, and have them build the stadium there.
-- Negative: this uses the very controversial private-sector eminent domain action (taking from "a" and giving to "b"). In 'New London vs Kelo', the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that this is legal. But most Americans dislike the idea because it's an encroachment on private property rights.

c) Willets Point Parking Lot. Jets build their stadium where the old Shea stadium stands (after it gets torn down). And the city uses public-sector eminent domain to acquire the Willets Point land for the city, and builds a large 24/7 municipal park & ride facility.
-- Negative: this uses the slightly less controversial public-sector eminent domain action. Even without the Supreme Court's recent ruling on New London vs Kelo, this type of eminent domain has always been allowed, but it's still not pleasant. Another negative is that this plan requires the Jets to wait until the old Shea stadium is destroyed before they can start building their football stadium.

d) Brian Hatch Piecemeal Plan. Jets build their stadium where the old Shea stadium stands (after it gets torn down). And the Jets individually acquire various properties from the Willets Point businesses to build piecemeal parking lots. No controversial eminent domain needed. No controversial taking of parkland.
-- Negative: piecemeal parking lots are less efficient than one big, contiguous parking lot. And this plan also requires the Jets to wait until the old Shea stadium is destroyed before they can start building their football stadium.

There's no easy answer. Each plan has significant negatives.

btw, on the subject of private-sector eminent domain (taking from "a" and giving to "b"): Following the 'New London vs Kelo' Supreme Court decision, many states & cities have started enacting new laws to specifically strengthen private property rights. I think NYC should do the same. Make it so that private-sector eminent domain can only occur if we can get an overwhelming majority to support the plan. Like a 2/3rds vote in City Council along with Mayoral approval. Or 2/3rds vote in public referendum. That would allow private-sector eminent domain when it was obviously needed, but set a high hurdle to restrain eminent domain abuse.

[normaldude]

I would remind both you and BPC that we are talking about a site that cannot be developed without an environmental cleanup, and that the site itself leaches toxins into Flushing Creek.

21 of the Willets Point junkyards were involved in NY State lawsuit for knowingly discharging toxins into the creek. Several of the companies built a concrete sluiceway to facilitate dumping.

So assuming you two are not just writing off this land as worthless, how would you decontaminate it if the business owners will not relocate?

If you're using "environmental cleanup" as the excuse for seizing all the Willets Point land, then the land should be put up for auction to the highest bidder. If it's just given to the Jets in a sweetheart deal, that would be a massive corporate welfare giveaway.

Additionally, if there are some law-abiding Willets Point businesses that have not broken environmental dumping laws, I don't see how you could seize their properties with the excuse of environmental cleanup.

[BPC]

I would remind both you and BPC that we are talking about a site that cannot be developed without an environmental cleanup, and that the site itself leaches toxins into Flushing Creek.

21 of the Willets Point junkyards were involved in NY State lawsuit for knowingly discharging toxins into the creek. Several of the companies built a concrete sluiceway to facilitate dumping.

So assuming you two are not just writing off this land as worthless, how would you decontaminate it if the business owners will not relocate?

If any of the businesses at Willets Point are violating environmental laws, then they should be made to comply with those laws, just like any other landowner. If they refuse to comply, then the state can commence condemnation proceedings and the like. There are even criminal implications for violating such laws. But that is not what this is about. This is not an environmental cleanup action; it is a land grab for a football stadium. I acknowledge that the United States Supreme Court has recently held (5-4, I believe) such takings to be Constitutional, but I respectfully disagree.

[BrooklynRider]

I think it would be incorrect to talk about the businesses and buildings in Willets Point as a monlithic unit. Some of those businesses might be guilty as you allege, but others are not. If one Italian guy guns down the guy who insulted his mother's cooking, are all italian guy's murderers? Same thing for these store owners.

This is less about what the building and store owners are guilty of and more about what the city has let them get away with. How can we hold them accountable for breaking laws we chose not to enforce? For the city to use its own lack of enforcement as the fulcrum to get this ball rolling, it seems like the pendulum swings both ways.

[ryan]

I am amazed at the cavalier way people toss about stealing other people's property. A new Jets Stadium is not in the "Public's Interest". It is a private enterprise with game seats owned in perpetuity by wealthy individuals and corporations. There is no argument whatsoever for using emminent domain for a new Jets Stadium.

It really is a disgraceful mindset to hold and one that is becoming too prevalent (and always espoused by those who don't own the property to be confiscated).

here here.

[ZippyTheChimp]

First of all, I never said that the Jets should be given the property.

What you are missing is the fundamental difference between the Willets Point land and the property involved in the 2 key Supreme Court cases.

In 1954 Berman v Parker, Washington DC condemned slum areas for urban renewal. A store owner challenged that his property did not constitute blight.

In 2005 Kelo v New London, the city argued that New London was a depressed community, and the added jobs and tax revenues would benefit the public, and warranted the seizure of property that was not blighted.

The Willets Point property is in limbo. Environmental cleanup is mandated. nothing can happen here, not even parking garages, or streets, or sewers, until it is cleaned. It doesn't matter that some of the owners are law abiding. They are sitting on blighted land.

Regardless of what is done with the site afterward, be it parkland, resisential-commercial, mixed use, or some city owned facility- eminent domain will have to be used to remove those who refuse payment to relocate.

Please elaborate on what you mean by...

the excuse of "environmental cleanup"

Have you ever been to the Willets Point junkyards?

If any of the businesses at Willets Point are violating environmental laws, then they should be made to comply with those laws, just like any other landowner. If they refuse to comply, then the state can commence condemnation proceedings and the like.The only way they can comply is by getting out. They can't stop doing anything; the damage has already been done.

Brooklyn Rider: They do not have to leave because they broke the law. They have to leave because the land is contaminated. If they hold title to the land, they would be liable for the cost of cleanup.

Last figure I heard was $300 million.

By the way, I didn't allege anything. It is public record.

[NYguy]

The only reason they want the parkland is so construction could begin immediately, in my opinion, an unreasonable position.


Not really, because clearly NJ isn't going to give the JETS that new lease with the option to just up and leave whenever they want. In fact, if the JETS want to remain at the Meadowlands beyond the next couple of years they have to work out a deal with the GIANTS for the new stadium.

So it comes down to this:

Option 1 - new stadium in the Meadowlands with the GIANTS
Option 2 - new stadium in Flushing Meadows park

BTW, the railyard deal expires after wednesday.

[normaldude]

Please elaborate on what you mean by...
the excuse of "environmental cleanup"

Because even if environmental cleanup for the whole site is mandated, that alone wouldn't require eminent domain. You could just bulldoze the buildings, do the cleanup, and bill the property owners. The property owners would still own the land, and they could come back afterwards to rebuild on their cleaned up land.


The Willets Point property is in limbo. Environmental cleanup is mandated. nothing can happen here, not even parking garages, or streets, or sewers, until it is cleaned. It doesn't matter that some of the owners are law abiding. They are sitting on blighted land.

Regardless of what is done with the site afterward, be it parkland, resisential-commercial, mixed use, or some city owned facility- eminent domain will have to be used to remove those who refuse payment to relocate.


Are you saying that the city should use eminent domain to grab the blighted land now, do the cleanup, but not determine what it wants to do with the land until afterwards? All the eminent domain cases I've heard of had a final project declared.

[ZippyTheChimp]

The bill is at least $300 million. Soil will have to be removed, and it will take time. Since the city would not be exercising eminent domain, there would be no obligation to relocate the companies, so they would be out of business during the cleanup.

The eminent domain here would be for the cleanup. The same sort of situation as Love Canal.

There have already been RFEIs issued for the area. The displaced junkyard owners are free to make proposals. As are the Jets.

The point is that regardless of whether or not the Jets are in the picture, eminent domain will be used for those that will not accept payment or relocation.

**As an example of the complexity of the cleanup, see the InterActive Corp thread. (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4131&page=1&pp=15&highlight=gehry+hudson)

If what NYguy says is correct, then the Jets will be in the Meadowlands. The parkland issue is a political liability for Bloomberg.

However, I'm not sure that is correct. The NFL holds some sway on what the individual owners do, and if it seen as a league benefit to have 2 stadiums, there could be pressure put on the Giants to accomodate - but that is a long shot.

[BPC]

Have you ever been to the Willets Point junkyards?


I used to go there all the time. You can park there for free, right outside the gate of the real parking lot at Shea Stadium. Now, you might say that parking your car next to a bunch of chop shops is tempting fate. However, at that time, I was driving a 1986 Plymouth Horizon, which was beneath the notice of even the Willets Pointers!

[ZippyTheChimp]

When you could drive to Lower Manhattan and find free parking, I drove a beat up Fiat Spyder that I called The Shitmobile. The thieves that prowled much of New York had the same opinion.

I once bought a gas tank at Willets Point. I think it was $5.

[STT757]

However, I'm not sure that is correct. The NFL holds some sway on what the individual owners do, and if it seen as a league benefit to have 2 stadiums, there could be pressure put on the Giants to accomodate - but that is a long shot.

The NFL wants the NY Area to have a stadium with a retractable roof so they can showcase the Super Bowl in the largest media market, the State of NJ has offered to pay for a retractable roof over a new stadium in the Meadowlands if the Giants and Jets agree to partner in a new stadium.

If the Jets build a stadium in Queens it's not going to have a roof, if the Giants build their own stadium without the Jets it will not have a roof either. The NFL thus wants both teams at the Meadowlands in order to get an all weather facility in the NYC area.

[billyblancoNYC]

The NFL wants the NY Area to have a stadium with a retractable roof so they can showcase the Super Bowl in the largest media market, the State of NJ has offered to pay for a retractable roof over a new stadium in the Meadowlands if the Giants and Jets agree to partner in a new stadium.

If the Jets build a stadium in Queens it's not going to have a roof, if the Giants build their own stadium without the Jets it will not have a roof either. The NFL thus wants both teams at the Meadowlands in order to get an all weather facility in the NYC area.

Don't think so. Why were they pushing for the West Side so hard, then? The NFL would love to have a new stadium in NYC, next to the Mets and the home of the US Open...15 mintues to Grand Central.

[ZippyTheChimp]

That sounds reasonable enough, but you really don't know for sure "what the NFL wants."

From a league standpoint, the Super Bowl is a TV event. The majority of the revenue is derived from TV fees, so the product inside the stadium is what generates income.

NYC as a media center does not guarantee TV revenue. I spite of their being the biggest road draw in baseball, World Series featuring the Yankees have had low TV ratings.

The financial health of individual teams, on the other hand, is dependent on their local market.

A Super Bowl in the metro area would not be an annual event. With all the new stadiums being built, once every 15 or 20 years sounds reasonable. That might not be as important as the financial success of a particular team year after year.

Billyblanco: I think that if STT757's assessment of the NFL wanting a Super Bowl in the NY are is the most important consideration, then from a media standpoint, it would make little difference if it was in Manhattan or the Meadowlands. The rest of the TV world would see it as the same thing.

But if what I stated above is correct, the Jets as an organization would be in a better financial position in Manhattan than in the Meadowlands (or Queens), and maybe that's why the NFL was pushing for the westside site.

[STT757]

Don't think so. Why were they pushing for the West Side so hard, then? The NFL would love to have a new stadium in NYC, next to the Mets and the home of the US Open...15 mintues to Grand Central.

Because the West Side Stadium was to have a dome, the Queens stadium will not. And what does Shea Stadium and the US Open have to do with the NFL?.. If they wanted to be near other pro-Sports they would be encouraging going back to the 1970's Baseball/Football Stadiums (Candlestick, Veterans, River Front, Three Rivers, Tacoma Dome, Sky Dome, Olympic Stadium, Fulton County Stadium, Astro Dome, Oakland Coliseum, Pro-Player etc...) which they shared with MLB.

[ZippyTheChimp]

More on the Jets Follies


September 24, 2005

Jets Tell N.F.L. They May Build on Queens Site

By CHARLES V. BAGLI (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=CHARLES V. BAGLI&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=CHARLES V. BAGLI&inline=nyt-per)

The Jets formally told the National Football League this week that they are pursuing plans to build a $1.35 billion stadium in Queens, even as a deadline looms for an agreement to build a stadium in New Jersey (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/newjersey/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) with the Giants.

The Jets appear to be formally opening up a two-state auction in which they are trying to get New Jersey and New York to outdo each other in offering a more lucrative deal for the team.

The New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority had given the Jets and the Giants until next Thursday to work out a partnership for a new stadium in the Meadowlands. But it is anyone's guess whether New Jersey officials, who were infuriated by what they say is the team's new stance, will play along anymore with the Jets or the team's president, L. Jay Cross.

"Jay Cross flat-out told us after the West Side stadium fell through that he was intent on bringing the Jets to a stadium in New Jersey, with the Giants as full partners," said Paul Fader, general counsel to Acting Gov. Richard J. Codey of New Jersey. "He was not at all interested in Queens. It would appear that he was less than completely truthful with us. It would appear he now wants to go to Queens."

The announcement at N.F.L. headquarters on Park Avenue on Thursday came as something of a surprise, since Commissioner Paul Tagliabue has been urging the Jets and the Giants to settle their differences over stadium design and build a football showplace they can share at the Meadowlands sports complex in New Jersey.

But Mr. Cross told Mr. Tagliabue and the Giants that the team was also considering plans to build a stadium in Queens, northeast of Shea Stadium on about 15 acres in Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, according to four executives who had been briefed on the meeting. Mr. Cross said the Giants should consider the same option.

According to team officials, the Jets have met in New York with aides to Gov. George E. Pataki, members of the Bloomberg administration and elected officials in Queens, as well as the editorial boards of many Queens newspapers. The Jets are also seeking $300 million from the state and the Bloomberg administration for road work, parkland and other infrastructure projects called for in their plans.

"We're very encouraged by what we heard," said John McArdle, a spokesman for Joseph L. Bruno, the New York State (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/newyork/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) Senate majority leader. "We want to be helpful." Mr. Bruno met with the Jets on Wednesday.

Officials in New Jersey who control the Meadowlands site had forcefully prodded the Giants, their premier tenant, into accommodating the Jets as a full partner in a new stadium, and they were clearly angry yesterday. Only a week ago, Carl J. Goldberg, president of the sports authority, confidently told reporters that Mr. Cross had told him that he was "focused on having a home in New Jersey," not in Queens.

But the Jets denied that they had changed their position.

"We've said all along, until we reach an agreement for a permanent home for the Jets, we will continue to explore all of our options," said Matt Higgins, a Jets' vice president. "That hasn't changed."

After withstanding weeks of criticism for not embracing the Jets, the Giants turned circumspect.

"We're still very interested in reaching a deal with the Jets," said John K. Mara, executive vice president and chief operating officer of the Giants. "That is our goal, and hopefully we'll have something worked out."

Whatever happens in New Jersey, the Queens stadium could emerge quickly as a volatile issue in the New York mayor's race. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg led a controversial effort to build a $2.2 billion stadium for the Jets on the West Side of Manhattan. After the proposal died in June when top state legislators refused to approve it, Mr. Bloomberg's ratings went up.

With the mayor's race in full swing, Mr. Bloomberg has had little to say publicly about the Jets' nascent effort to go to Queens. Asked about the Jets' plans, Edward Skyler, a spokesman for Mr. Bloomberg, said, "We're aware of their interest, but they haven't made a proposal to the city, so we are unable to comment."

The powerful Queens Civic Congress, an alliance of nearly 100 civic and community groups, opposes the plan.

"We'll take his silence to mean he's in favor of it," said Sean M. Walsh, president of the Civic Congress, referring to Mr. Bloomberg. "There's going to be so much opposition."

A spokeswoman for Fernando Ferrer, Mr. Bloomberg's Democratic opponent, said that Mr. Ferrer opposed direct subsidies for stadium construction, a position not unlike the mayor's. She did not say whether Mr. Ferrer favored a Jets stadium in the park.

Mr. Walsh called it "absurd" to turn over irreplaceable parkland to commercial interests. The city took 74.5 acres of the park for Shea Stadium in the 1960's. After the United States Tennis Association got a total of 46.5 acres in early 1990's, Mr. Walsh said City Hall promised that that would be the last incursion into the borough's most popular park.

Some New Jersey officials suggested that the 15-acre Queens proposal was merely an effort to gain leverage in negotiations with New Jersey over a 75-acre stadium project and to force the Giants to comply with the Jets' plans. The two teams are at odds over the size and shape of the stadium and the location of practice fields.

The Jets recently rejected the Giants' offer to submit the issues to binding arbitration, according to a New Jersey official involved in the negotiations.

Mr. Fader, counsel to New Jersey's governor, said the Jets had every right to pursue a move to Queens.

"But don't prevent New Jersey from getting a world-class stadium," he said. "Be honest and truthful."

Richard Sandomir contributed reporting for this article.

Copyright 2005 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html) The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)

[kliq6]

wonder if that METS stadium will come up again

[JCMAN320]

The Jets are acting like spoiled children. They should grow up suck it up and just swallow you damm pride and just build with the Giants in the Meadowlands, a location which makes the most sense. It would be too costly to have two seperate football stadiums becaue of the capacity of both and competition for concert venues. It doesn't make sense. Don't play the two states. Hell in fact it would be perfect for the Mets and Jets to build a stadium with or next to eachother, because they are both very bad under achieving teams.

[lofter1]

Just move the Mets / Nets / Jets to the same place.

Save a lot of money with signage: Only need to change that one silly letter (depending on who's playing).

[BigMac]

New York Times
September 28, 2005

New Stadium for Giants and Jets Hits Snags

By CHARLES V. BAGLI

The chances of the Giants and the Jets making football history by building a two-team stadium in the Meadowlands dimmed this week, with the teams at odds over everything from the shape of the stadium to the amount of retail space at the proposed complex.

Acting Gov. Richard J. Codey, and executives of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority - who have given the Giants and the Jets until tomorrow to form a partnership for the stadium - have also grown increasingly frustrated with the Jets.

The Jets announced last week that they were simultaneously pursuing plans for a $1.35 billion stadium in a park in Queens, much to the embarrassment of New Jersey officials, who had said publicly that the team had assured them that it was committed to a new stadium in the Meadowlands.

Then, on Monday, L. Jay Cross, the Jets' president, sent the sports authority a long list of "preconditions" to both a joint venture with the Giants and an irrevocable agreement with the authority to remain in New Jersey. The Jets want to renegotiate a memorandum of understanding between the Giants and the state that makes the Jets an equal partner, according to executives involved in the discussions.

More important, the team is putting forward a number of demands that place it in direct conflict with not only the Giants and the sports authority but also with Xanadu, the $2 billion retail and entertainment complex that would share the property, the executives and team officials said.

Until these issues are resolved, Mr. Cross indicated that the team would continue to press forward with plans for a Queens stadium.

New Jersey officials were meeting last night with the Giants to determine their approach to the growing impasse. The sports authority could decide to compromise, or strike a deal solely with the Giants, leaving the Jets to hope for a stadium in Queens, or as a tenant in Giants Stadium.

"We think we've made a very fair proposal to the Jets," said John K. Mara, the executive vice president and chief operating officer of the Giants, shortly before meeting with state officials yesterday.

It has long been clear that Governor Codey wants a stadium deal before he leaves office. He approved an agreement that would provide the Giants and possibly the Jets with generous terms, including the right to develop 75 acres, up from the 29 acres now used by the teams.

The Jets have sought to buy time to line up their alternative in Queens, where their plans have gained the support of many elected officials. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, who led the Jets' failed effort to build a stadium in Manhattan, has been reluctant to take a stand on the plan until after until after? Election Day.

But many civic groups in Queens are vowing to fight the plan, which would place the stadium on 15 acres in the middle of Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, southeast of Shea Stadium. Civic leaders say that a project of that size would probably use even more land, and that the 18-story stadium would dominate the park.

"It's going to be a fight," said Patricia Dolan, president of the Flushing Meadows-Corona Park Conservancy, which opposes the stadium. "They don't need this misery when they have a very lively alternative, in New Jersey"

In the Meadowlands, the Giants have proposed an 80,000-seat stadium that places all the premium seats and luxury boxes on the west side of the building. The Jets have proposed a 90,000-seat stadium that spreads the higher-priced seating throughout the stadium. The Jets also want the Giants to move their practice fields and offices away from the stadium, so that the area is "team-neutral." They have asked the state to provide two 28-acre sites within a 30-minute drive of the Meadowlands.

The Jets now say they are willing to compromise on the size of the stadium, but they want the Giants to scrap their plans and adopt the Jets' seating bowl and form a joint design team that would be headed by a Jets vice president, Bill Senn, an architect.

The Jets also want to build a 500-room hotel and expand the amount of retail space from 150,000 square feet to 600,000 square feet, two elements that would compete with Xanadu.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

[pianoman11686]

"It's going to be a fight," said Patricia Dolan, president of the Flushing Meadows-Corona Park Conservancy, which opposes the stadium. "They don't need this misery when they have a very lively alternative, in New Jersey"

Any relation to Cablevision?

[ZippyTheChimp]

The Jets Follies may be coming to an end. Maybe now they can concentrate on why they allowed their quarterback to play so soon after rotator cuff surgery.

[NYatKNIGHT]

The team, management, and ownership sucks - I really don't want their name on Giants stadium.

[NYguy]

Seems the GIANTS and JETS have reached a deal to share a stadium at the Meadowlands. Press conference later...

[Teno]

Looks like the Jets stay in Jersey.

This brings a close to an actual NY Jets stadium.

Jersey will reap the benefit.

[Ninjahedge]

Question, what do you think the name of the stadium should be?

The Garden State Arena?

The Meadowlands Arena?

The Olivia Newton John complex?

[NYguy]

Question, what do you think the name of the stadium should be?

The Garden State Arena?
The Meadowlands Arena?
The Olivia Newton John complex?


They've already said the naming will go to the highest bidder. It should actually be named after gov Codey who worked hard to get a deal done, and succeeded. Other than that, they should call it Silver Stadium, or the House that Shelly Built. I think its past time both the JETS and GIANTS officially became New Jersey teams and took the NY out of it. The NETS are moving to Brooklyn, but they won't be the New Jersey NETS anymore.

[STT757]

Acting Governor Richard Codey just announced the deal on the Mike and the Mad Dog show on WFAN, looks like the NFL will contribute $300 Million towards the stadium. It will host the Super Bowl, which means a retractable roof.

Also the NY Jets will move their Headquarters and practice facilities from Hoftstra to Monmouth Race Track in Long Branch New Jersey, located on the Jersey Shore in Monmouth County near Monmouth University.

[pianoman11686]

Jets and Giants Agree to Share New Stadium

By CHARLES V. BAGLI

Published: September 29, 2005

After weeks of jostling, name-calling and bitterness, the Jets and the Giants agreed today to a 50-50 partnership to finance and build a football stadium in the Meadowlands, the first of its kind for teams in the National Football League, according to executives involved in the negotiations.

Today's agreement, to be announced at a 5:30 p.m. news conference, makes the Jets a party to the deal the Giants struck with state officials in April and is irrevocable. But details about the design of the stadium have yet to be worked out.

The breakthrough in the tempestuous negotiations came late Tuesday night in a five-hour meeting at the Meadowlands racetrack between Acting Gov. Richard J. Codey; John Mara, co-owner of the Giants; Woody Johnson, owner of the Jets; their respective lawyers; and Carl Goldberg, chairman of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, which oversees the Meadowlands sports complex.

The owners of the two teams, which are rivals on the field but co-occupants of the existing stadium, agreed to submit many of the most contentious issues - including the size and shape of the new stadium - to binding arbitration, according to two executives involved in the discussions. The partnership agreement puts to rest talk of the Jets building a stadium in Queens.

Under the deal, the Giants and the Jets will develop a modern stadium complex on 75 acres, up from 29 acres today, with luxury boxes, premium seating, sports-oriented stores, a hall of fame and a new rail connection. The teams would split the cost of the project, which is expected to be more than $800 million, and would, presumably, develop their own advertising and marketing while sharing revenues from naming rights.

The stadium would also have a connection to Xanadu, the $2 billion retail and entertainment complex that will share the property.

"I am delighted that the Jets made the right decision and will be staying in New Jersey where they belong," said Patricia Dolan, president of the Flushing Meadows Corona Park Conservancy, which had opposed the Queens stadium plan.

But John Puccio, founder of Bring Our Jets Home, which supported a return of the Jets to Queens, said that he was furious and that his group was "a pawn in a game to help the Jets gain leverage in New Jersey."

"The Jets wasted our time and broke our hearts," Mr. Puccio said.

On Wednesday, George R. Zoffinger, president of the sports authority, said he was optimistic about a deal. "Our next objective is to make sure there is a retractable roof, so we can attract the Super Bowl and other events, something that is supported by the commissioner of the N.F.L.," he said,

On Wednesday afternoon, the team owners and their lawyers gathered at 2:30 in Mr. Goldberg's office at the Meadowlands in hopes of coming to terms. The meeting broke up at 7:15 p.m. without a final deal, but the teams resumed meeting this morning to settle the outstanding issues.

"We feel like we have made progress," a Giants spokesman, Pat Hanlon, said on Wednesday night, "and we are going to sit down again tomorrow in hopes of reaching an agreement."

Never before have two football teams agreed to build a stadium together. The Jets joined the Giants at Giant Stadium in 1984 because they had nowhere else to go after fleeing the confines of Shea Stadium in Queens. But the Jets have always resented playing in a stadium named after a rival team.

"This would be the first example of a stadium being developed from the outset for two N.F.L. teams," said Marc Ganis, president of Sportscorp, a sports business consulting firm based in Chicago. "The cost of these buildings has skyrocketed to such a degree that it makes far more economic sense to share the debt service and the revenues. The net revenues for the two teams are likely to be significantly better than if they each built their own stadium."

That does not mean that it was easy for the teams to get this far. At separate moments over the last month, each team has been cast as a villain by the other parties in the negotiations.

Then early this week, L. Jay Cross, the Jets' president, formally told Paul Tagliabue, commissioner of the National Football League, that the team was also considering building a $1.3 billion stadium on 15 acres in a park near Shea Stadium, infuriating New Jersey officials who said Mr. Cross had committed to New Jersey.

Mr. Cross then gave the sports authority a list of "preconditions" to a partnership with the Giants that included items sure to be unacceptable to the Giants, Xanadu or the sports authority. Talks seemed headed for a breakdown. But at least two issues continued to loom large in the teams' negotiating calculus, and prevented a total collapse. Both teams realized that if the Giants refused to relinquish their role as the marquee tenant at the Meadowlands and failed to accommodate the Jets, the tentative deal for a new stadium on 75 acres was unlikely to get sweeter.

Both the Democratic candidate for governor, Senator Jon S. Corzine, and his Republican opponent, Douglas R. Forrester, have been critical of what they view as the overly generous terms of the deal offered by Governor Codey.

And the sports authority refused to budge on its deadline - today - for the two teams to form a joint venture. This left the Jets with too little time to play out their strategy. The Jets had pursued stadium deals in both the Meadowlands and Queens ever since their five-year, $65 million effort to build a stadium in Manhattan died in June.

But while the team was able to line up support for a Queens stadium among local elected officials, it could not hope to gain the support of Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg until after Election Day.

The sports authority and the Giants insisted that the Jets choose between New York and New Jersey. The Jets could have bailed out of the negotiations with New Jersey and, under the terms of its lease at the Meadowlands, sued to block the Giants from building their own stadium.

According to two people involved in the negotiations who insisted on anonymity because of the continuing talks, Mr. Tagliabue told the Jets that it would not be a good idea for the team to try to foil plans for a new Giants stadium if it was truly interested in moving to Queens. That meant the Jets would have been left as a tenant of the Giants in New Jersey with the hope of getting a New York stadium at some point in the future. Hours later, on Tuesday evening, the Jets and Giants neared an agreement to form a partnership and submit to binding arbitration.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

[STT757]

Here's the Audio interview of Governor Codey on the Mike and the Mad Dog show discussing the stadium deal.

http://wfan.com/homepage/local_audioclip_272180332.html

[NYguy]

Acting Governor Richard Codey just announced the deal on the Mike and the Mad Dog show on WFAN, looks like the NFL will contribute $300 Million towards the stadium. It will host the Super Bowl, which means a retractable roof.


It's ironic that if gov McGreevey hadn't left office, New Jersey probably would have lost both teams along with the NETS. McGreevey had absolutely no interest in helping get any stadium built. Codey, an acting governor, stepped in and got these deals done - deals that the next governor probably wouldn't have. Timing is everything.

[Ninjahedge]

NYG, thing is, there are probably not ENOUGH people out there that care enough about this to make a difference.

I have seen rabid Giants fans, but I have not really seen much of the same for the Jets.

Also, almost noone here would lose sleep over the Nets.

So I do not think MacGreevey should have to shoulder the ENORMOUS burden of keeping sports teams in NJ as one of his primary concerns, especially in light of the fact that other interests are developing so much of the area that was once considered prime for stadiums because of its relatively low value and low impact on local residents.....

[kliq6]

Okay lets end this thread. NY should not be fighting over sport teams with Jersey, it should be trying to get the 100's of thousands of jobs that have went to the cheaper pastures. With a Democrat governor likly to win, business tax breaks put into effect by Whitman will start to cease. Its NY chance again

[STT757]

Okay lets end this thread. NY should not be fighting over sport teams with Jersey, it should be trying to get the 100's of thousands of jobs that have went to the cheaper pastures. With a Democrat governor likly to win, business tax breaks put into effect by Whitman will start to cease. Its NY chance again

As part of the Stadium deal the Jets will move their Headquarters and practice facilities to New Jersey, meaning NY looses out on the taxes collected from the Jets Hundred Million Dollar payroll.

[JCMAN320]

I must wonder Ninjahedge if you are much of a sports fan. My guess would be no. Giants Stadium sells out every game for both teams and there is a 20 year waiting list for season tickets for the Giants, not sure about Jets but probably cloose so obviously there are people that care. Also there are many people here that care about the move with the Nets to Brooklyn and wish it wasn't happening. I'am going to many meetings in Brooklyn with the residents to try and stop this. SO yes many people here care. Hoboken never struck me as much of a sports town anyway. ;)

[ZippyTheChimp]

Klig6 is right.

The economic impact is minor. The number of jobs created by sports facilities is in the hundreds, and while that is OK in and of itself, it is a poor ROI for public investment.

Compare it to the economic impact of Goldman Sachs - thousands of jobs, not seasonal, but every day, generating other jobs in the area. It is why, as painful as it was, the city had no choice but to give GS the money. The money the city was ready to throw at the Jets can be better spent developing the westside, which will bring in more value.

The major benefit of the stadium is entertainment. If I was a Rams fan living in LA, it would make a big difference. But it makes no difference to me if I go to a Giants game in Queens, the Meadowlands, Manhattan, wherever. If the game stinks, I don't think I would say, "At least I'm watching it in the city."

People will still go to NYC sports bars to watch games. Modell's will still sell Giants/Jets gear. And they will probably still be called the NY Giants and the NY Jets - marketing, not geography.

The only thing I don't get to do is pay for it.

Such a deal.

[Ninjahedge]

I must wonder Ninjahedge if you are much of a sports fan. My guess would be no.

yep.

Giants Stadium sells out every game for both teams and there is a 20 year waiting list for season tickets for the Giants, not sure about Jets but probably cloose so obviously there are people that care.

You don't get it. How many people does that equate to? How many people fit in the stadium? How many live in NJ? The length of a waiting list for seasonals is not an indication of how many people, but how many devoted fans that want to drink in the parking lot. My uncle being one of them.

My point was, calling for a governor to step down because of a sports team is juvenile.

Also there are many people here that care about the move with the Nets to Brooklyn and wish it wasn't happening. I'am going to many meetings in Brooklyn with the residents to try and stop this. SO yes many people here care. Hoboken never struck me as much of a sports town anyway. ;)

Um, the Nets suck. My brother still has a calendar of their cheerleading squad from the 80's and i looks like something out of a high school.

marketing has changed that, but they are still not a die-hard team. The fan base is not as large or strong.

When I say "nobody" I am saying "not many as to make any real discernable impact on the governance or finace of the state". You know that!!! Please don't ask me to be picky about how I phrase my generalities. I don't like showing my PHD in Anality.. ;)


And Hoboken is pretty big into sports, but people can't really watch it well here. You need to go elsewhere.

the only real sport we have here is drinking... ;)

[ZippyTheChimp]

No need to keep two threads open. Continue discussion in the Giants Stadium thread