Chelsea Stratus - 101 W 24th St/735 Sixth Ave - Condo

[londonlawyer]

According to this article from therealdeal.net, the long empty Con Ed parking lot on 6th Ave. is finally being developed. That's good news.

Developers plan for soft landing in apt. market
Stalled land value growth, cooling sales prices among reasons
By Alison Gregor


Coming back to earth: Land prices have leveled off, says broker Eric Anton of Eastern Consolidated (r.) who brokered with partner Ron Solarz (l.) the land sale for the Link condo under construction at 310 West 52nd Street. Residential property developers are repositioning themselves to survive in a New York City real estate market that may be losing steam for the first time in a decade.

Market reports show declining sales prices for some residential units, and rumors are swirling that growth in land prices has stalled. Construction and fuel costs are mounting as interest rates climb. Lenders are reconsidering proposed projects by new developers in marginal areas.

Then again, all of this may be hype by those, including the media, who persist in talk of a real estate "bubble."

"I believe the market is slowing down," said Mario Procida, head of Second Development Services/ Procida Realty & Construction. "Wait, let me rephrase that: Everything I've read leads me to believe the market is slowing down."

David Sigman, senior vice president of national development company LCOR, which recently purchased land for two Manhattan projects, echoed that sentiment, saying those in the industry remain cautiously optimistic.

"I think you have to analyze the statistics at the right level, and not at the kind of one-line newspaper headline level," Sigman said.

But the fact remains that the data don't add up to the sort of hyperactive market seen over the past few years. And while condominium sales are flagging, construction costs are increasing, especially in the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita, which have drained laborers from the area. Those natural disasters have also driven up fuel prices and delayed arrival of building materials.

Some developers may be hedging their bets by buying futures in building materials. But Sigman said LCOR is trying to line up contractors on its projects, which include The Charleston, a 172-unit luxury condominium at 225 East 34th Street, and a recently announced project at a former Con Edison site on Sixth Avenue between 24th and 25th streets.

"What we're trying to do is get into the market and bid these things out and sign up people to real contracts," Sigman said. "That's the ultimate protection."

Developers like LCOR, which bought property recently but is not yet in the ground, may be most at risk. Real estate experts say land prices in boroughs outside of Manhattan may be falling, meaning developers who purchased at the height of the market could only flip their properties at a loss.

"For sure, land is staying longer on the market," said Brooklyn developer Eric Brody, principal of the Brody Group, a development and consulting firm. "For sure, buyers have more negotiating power, and you can come up with more creative ways of purchasing land." Manhattan mostly a mainstay In the largest swath of Manhattan, however, conditions may not have changed as much.

"I can tell you we're still doing deals at record levels," said Eric Anton, a senior managing director at Eastern Consolidated Properties who handles many 50,000- to 150,000-square-foot properties. "But prices have leveled off a bit, especially in secondary locations, which aren't as desirable as they were four, five, six months ago."

While neighborhoods like Soho, Greenwich Village and Chelsea are still thriving, areas like the Lower East Side and "nowheresville in the 50s" may be feeling a bit of a slump, Anton said.

With the prices of larger condominium units falling and properties lingering on the market longer, that could be bad news for some developers.

"Land prices – that's kind of a cycle that drives itself," said Andrew Gerringer, executive vice president of Prudential Douglas Elliman's development marketing group. "If you paid high prices for land, then you're forced to sell at prices that are high. You're going to get yourself caught up in a situation where it's difficult to sell if the market is price-sensitive."

Some developers may be rethinking their unit mix. Procida is seeing success with the development of smaller units (see sidebar) as part of his "be@" line of apartments at Clinton West on 47th Street between 10th and 11th avenues, and Brooklyn's Boulevard East at 53 Boerum Place and 90 Williams Street.

Plus, Procida said he typically does a mix of market-rate and affordable housing, which protects him from a market nosedive.

"The affordable housing market is always there," Procida said. "It insulates you in a soft market."


Interest wanes as rates rise

Even more skittish than property developers are lenders. Procida said he believes the biggest issue facing property developers currently are interest rates that are finally creeping upward after a couple years of anticipation, making the cost of money more dear. Lenders, then, may be rethinking their lending strategies with respect to some projects.

"Before, some of the aggressive investment banks may have leant 95 percent [of a project]," Gerringer said. "Now, some of them are going to 85 or 90 percent loans, and they're lending more to the people who have experience – not necessarily to anybody who has a heartbeat."

Even so, most lenders are far off from requiring that condominium developers have a rental back-up plan – something common in the previous decade – because land prices are still too high in many areas for that to be possible, developers said.

Jeffrey Baker, senior managing director and principal of Granite Partners, a private real estate investment banking firm that has recently financed or is financing more than 2,500 units in New York, said that the current New York City market is insulated from any "bubble," and lenders are still optimistic.

"I think unit demand and pricing remains very strong," Baker said. "If there's any pushback, it's really only for what I'd consider to be more marginal projects and locations. In New York, I'll be honest, I don't see it really yet."

The tremendous shortage of condominium units, along with the massive barriers to entry and the limited speculation, buffer the New York City market in a unique fashion, Baker said.

Still, there is chatter among developers of a condominium glut that could sap the market in the $2 million to $3 million price range, Anton said.

"That's a discriminating buyer, and they don't have to buy," he said. "They can rent, they can sit, they can buy something less expensive. Unless there's something really compelling about the units – they're in a prime location or a 'starchitect' designed them – I think those units could have trouble."

The cliché real estate catch phrase "location, location, location" has resurfaced as a guide to wise developers.

"For so long, it didn't even matter," Anton said. "It was like, oh, people will live anywhere. They will, but they're not going to pay $1,000 a foot to live anywhere."

Sigman said LCOR, heeding that maxim, chose its properties cautiously.

"We looked Downtown and ended up not doing anything," he said. "There's just a lot of product being delivered Downtown, so we stayed in the Midtown markets. And we just tried to be careful about choosing visible sites – not too large."

And LCOR structured its deals to weather the equivalent of a perfect storm in New York City's real estate market. "We have institutional equity partners, so there's a fair amount of equity in both these projects," Sigman said. "So we're not as sensitive to interest rate changes."

Thus, LCOR is not feeling pressure to rush to develop its projects in a market that may – or may not – be deflating.

"You prepare for a downturn in the bones of the project," Sigman said. "It's not some last-minute effort to bail the boat."

[accidentalNYer]

"Some developers may be hedging their bets by buying futures in building materials."

The proper hedge if you fear a collapse in the market is to sell the bloody futures.

I hate financial journalism. Spreads financial ignorance worse than plague spreads death.

Sheesh!

Accidental

[ebrigham]

I believe they meant the developers are buying futures to offset a further increase in building materials, not the overall market itself. At least that is the way I read it.

[accidentalNYer]

If you consider just the first sentence about the hyperactive market slowing down, then developers should be short futures. If you consider what follows about supply shortages resulting from Hurricane Katrina, then developers should buy futures. Except, of course, that the effects of the Hurricane Katrina shock are now past. You absolutely don't hedge past events. I can't see any economic or financial logic to hedging with a long position in futures unless one expects a continuing hyperactive market. But that's not what the first sentence of the paragraph says.

I dunno. I think the text and reasoning of the piece are garbled.

If you as a developer anticipate a slowdown, then you should be short. And if you expect things to stay hyperactive or to pickup, then you should go long. In fact, a naked long position in building futures would be the equivalent of betting on the Orion.

Accidental

[ebrigham]

The article is indeed not very clear, but they may be talking about hedges that were already in place (for uncompleted construction). And it isn't a naked long position - If the futures lose value it will/should be offset by lower building costs.

Anyway, while Katrina is long gone, the rebuilding process will continue for a while. Unexpected supply constraints could boost materials prices further than a slowing housing market will cool them - at least in the near-term. If things go wrong, builders could get it on both ends - higher building costs and lower demand (and prices) for their product. An uncertain scenario of course, but for those that don’t have long-term supply contracts in place, it might be their only bet.

[accidentalNYer]

... would want to hedge the prospects for real estate.

Accidental

[londonlawyer]

I walked by this site today and noticed that the deli in the crap building just north of the empty lot had a sign stating that they've moved. That's good news, as I recall that the developer wanted to acquire that dump in order to have the full block on 6th.

[Nat Tahnam]

Is that the east or west side of 6th Ave? I'm trying to get a picture of 6th above Best Buy on 23rd.

[londonlawyer]

It's a filthy, asphalt lot on the west side of 6th.

[vc10]

Another flea market site bites the dust -- thank heavens.

It's a filthy, asphalt lot on the west side of 6th.

[londonlawyer]

As the shi..tty buildings and lots are gradually redeveloped on Sixth, it could become a great avenue, as there are some magnificent old buildings on it. I hope that the crap just north of the old Limelight is redeveloped next.

[BrooklynRider]

I prefer a mix of old New York and new New York. Just tearing stuff down to putt up antiseptic, mediocre crap - like the stuff now lining Sixth Ave - is going to effectively kill our streetscape. Each of these new, modern buildings wants big tenants that pay big rents. The area ends up losing the smaller, unique, Mom & Pop shops, delis and single store retailers that make a neigborhood and "neighborhood." As exciting as new development is, it is destroying those aspects of New York that made it a great "town" in addition to being a great city.

[londonlawyer]

I favor preserving nice old buildings. For example, I oppose the demolition of the 19th century stable which is the subject of another thread. However, a lot of older buildings are crap that should be re-developed. The building that I had in mind is on the east side of 6th and houses a luggage shop. It's an utter eyesore. There are three small buildings south of that and north of the Limelight on that block. They're nice little buildings but are dilapidated and have shi..tty stores, which should be replaced with something better.

[BrooklynRider]

Yet, one need only look at a CBGB to see the significance to culture that a crap building can have. The loss of the "cheap, crap" is precisely why we have the art drain and culture drain going on in this city. I love New York, but, despite the naysayers, Philadelphia is cashing in on our shortsightedness. It is the next great artist refuge - with a great city feel. It's where I'm spending this New Year's weekend.

We are in a building boom and the only consideration in the whole process is money - nothing else. There is no planning, beyond money. No planning beyond ROI. No planning at all. It is exciting to watch this stuff go up, but, as a resident, it seems there's hardly and "there" there in New York any more. It's been overrun by folks who are more concerned with high end fixtures than vibrant neighborhood scenes. People want to know how closet he nearest Starbucks will be and when Whole Foods will come to their area. The value of Historic Districts has never been more pronounced.

[londonlawyer]

I agree with some of what you say. I have no problem losing mom and pop stores in Manhattan to the extent that they're cheap, run-down stores. They're not found on 5th Avenue, so, as other areas gentrify, why should they remain there. I don't think that cheap stores like bodegas add anything to an area. When my friend first moved to Notting Hill seven years ago, his street was filled with crappy, run down stores. Every year when I return, it becomes nicer and nicer. The crappy stores have all but disappeared. They've been replaced by some chains (like Starbucks) but also by a lot of independent shops and restaurants that are upscale. The new businesses have all redone the facades at street level and this once drab area looks really nice now.

Lastly, to the extent that mom and pop stores are priced out of Manhattan, there are plenty of affordable areas in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, JC, etc. that they can move to. It would be nice to see businesses and people who are priced out of Manhattan go to these other areas and spur redevelopment there.

[infoshare]

We are in a building boom and the only consideration in the whole process is money - nothing else. There is no planning, beyond money. No planning beyond ROI. No planning at all.area.

i take exception to that statement. Take a loolk at the hudson river water front starting from about canal street all the way to the GW Bridge. There are many "not-for-profit" and mostly park - just a very few "businesses. Then look a accross to NJ waterfront (all DEVELOPMENT) propetties there.

I think NYC has done something quite remarkable in providing for many non- profits to have space allocated at the harlem piers (a recent development) for a community arts program and public boating. Also, the trapese shools, the River Project, the soccer fields, the many public boating facilites and parks that comprise more than 90% of that 550 Acres of nyc waterfront.

That is (to some extent) a good thing - I think you would agree. So its not all that bad.

And a case in point - the is an open air aquarium in the works - to be place on the hudson rive walkway: See this months front page of the downtown express. http://www.downtownexpress.com/

Nyc is very big on "cultural enhacements" and that is great.

AND - BTW, that is me leaning on the waterfront rail in the front page photo.........taken my an "unknown" photographer.

[londonlawyer]

From cityrealty.com:

LCOR plans 37-story condo tower in Flower District 05-JAN-06

LCOR is planning to build a 37-story residential condominium tower on the west side of the Avenue of the Americas between 24th and 25th Streets.

The site is now occupied by a parking lot that had been used by Con Edison and a low-rise structure that will be demolished.

The new tower will contain 199 apartments.

It has been designed by SCLE Architects.

David Sigman, senior vice president of LCOR, told CityRealty.Com today that the project will have about 16,000-square feet of ground-floor retail space. He said ground should be broken for the project in about 60 days and that it should be completed next year.

Mr. Sigman said the development is “as-of-right,” that is, within existing zoning and building regulations.

He said that its address will be 101 West 24th Street and that it will have a roof deck and catering and entertainment facilities for the residents as well as a basketball court.

The new tower will have a five-story base and many balconies. The north and south ends of the tower will be gently curved and faced with a gray-tinted glass.

LCOR, whose corporate office is located in Berwyn, Pennsylvania, has about $8 billion in developments completed, under construction or in pre-development and has developed more than 20,000 residential units and more than 16 million square feet of commercial space nationally.

The new project will join a phalanx of apartment towers that have recently transformed the city’s former Flower District along the avenue in the heart of Chelsea. There is excellent public transportation in this area, which is close to the Flatiron District and Madison Square Park.

[antinimby]

It has been designed by SCLE Architects.Nauseating with a capital N.

[antinimby]

This rendering goes with londonlawyer's LCOR post above:

http://www.cityrealty.com/graphics/uploads/1136493550_24w101.gif

Not bad, but I still stand by my comment above regarding SCLE.

[pianoman11686]

At least the base doesn't look like a half-assed fortress (cough, 310 East 53rd, cough).

[BrooklynRider]

I'm surprised balconies aren't considered a security risk to the city.

[krulltime]

More info on this tower... ;)


735 Sixth Avenue:


http://i.pbase.com/o4/55/435155/1/55650062.735SixthAvenue2.JPG

[vc10]

The block just south of this (between 23rd and 24th Sts on the west side) is getting kind of seamy -- there's a porno shop and there are always sketchy looking guys selling stuff on the sidewalk.

Hopefully putting this building in will help to displace that and raise the tone a little bit.

[krulltime]

Here is the site... You can see that the small building at the end is getting demolished.

February 6, 2006:


http://i.pbase.com/o4/55/435155/1/55831849.IMG_7151.jpg

[antinimby]

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1858/101w247jx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[lofter1]

What's up with that blank section ^ at the lower left?

Doesn't this building take up the entire block-front?

[sfenn1117]

It may be the view from the side street rather than the avenue.

[antinimby]

What's up with that blank section ^ at the lower left?
Doesn't this building take up the entire block-front?Yes it does take up the entire block from 24th to 25th streets. That rendering shows the building's entrance on 24th street. The blank section is a neighboring building (look in the photo just above it, it's the building w/ the blue Montauk sign).

[lofter1]

OK thanks ...

Looks like this new one will cantilever over that one to some degree.

Not a fan of that practice ... :mad:

[investordude]

http://www.singerbassuk.com/press/globest_4_25_06.html

Looks like it should be nice. Taller than other buildings in the area it seems, but I think it should help fill in some of the gaps nicely.

[antinimby]

Update: above ground construction is now visible with the first floor completed.

[krulltime]

Condo tower to be Chelsea's tallest


http://www.therealdeal.net//breaking_news/2006/12/18/images/8296.jpg
Chelsea Stratus will rise
40 stories


By Tim Moran
December 18, 2006

Construction is underway in Chelsea on what will be the neighborhood's tallest building.

Workers from Plaza Construction have already erected about ten floors on the west side of Sixth Avenue between 24th and 25th streets of Chelsea Stratus, a condominium tower that will soar to a height of 40 stories in a neighborhood dominated by low- and mid-rise developments.

"This will be Chelsea's tallest building and the only full-service condo of its kind in the Sixth Avenue corridor," said David Sigman, senior vice president of LCOR, the project's developer.

Building amenities at Chelsea Stratus will include 24-hour doorman and concierge service, a ground-level entertainment area with media lounge, billiard area, fitness center and basketball court, along with ground-floor and rooftop terraces designed by landscape architect Thomas Balsley. The rooftop terrace will feature a dog run.

As for the condo units themselves, they'll range in size from 700 to 800 square feet for one-bedrooms up to 2,000 to 2,200 square feet for convertible spaces on the top floors. Most units will have their own balconies or terraces and sport ceiling heights between 9.5 and 11 feet. Sigman said Chelsea Stratus will likely attract attention from Chelsea renters who are looking to upgrade.

"Rental properties in this neighborhood are averaging close to $70 per square foot, so buying won't financially be a big leap," he said, adding that his group expects to get between $1,200 to $1,250 per square foot at the condos.

Sales at Chelsea Stratus will begin in late winter of next year and the building is expected to open in the spring. Sigman said his group is confident that units at their development will sell, despite a slowing condominium market.

"Right now, we have a lot of sales activity at The Charleston on East 34th Street. As long as things are priced right we've seen plenty of velocity," Sigman said. "I would love for it to be 2005 and sell out the same day I open sales, but that's just not going to happen. Still, we have a unique product and as long as the prices are right, we don't expect any problems."


Copyright © 2003-2005 The Real Deal.

[posterboy]

... a condominium tower that will soar to a height of 40 stories in a neighborhood dominated by low- and mid-rise developments...

yeah ... except for those seven other 20-36 storey buildings (if you count the mcsam's) within three blocks, and all the other buildings planned up the street.

but considering that the streetwall on the east side of sixth ave is now relatively monotonous, giving you that wall-of-buildings view when you look up sixth ave, this one could be worse. the tower part is actually relatively slim, compared to chelsea landmark. who knows, it might actually look alright. the base is definitely more interesting than what's in the nabe now.

speaking of nabe, anyone have any news on the remy?

[krulltime]

January 24, 2007:


http://www.pbase.com/image/73505175.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/73505173.jpg

[asoroudi]

First batch have been released. What do you guys think of the pricing? I would have like to purchase a 2BR, in the 1030 to 1060SF range, but they went from ~830SF 1BR directly to 1150SF 2BR's.
http://www.elliman.com/mainsite/agents/agents.aspx?BID=AXH

[stache]

Does anybody know how many more floors to go on this dolly? I'm getting a little concerned I might be losing some beloved sunshine soon -

[antinimby]

It's 40-stories, you do the math.

[nyrealestate]

The prices were released just yesterday? (based on asoroudi's post)

[sberg25]

We're a little too late to the party. I had an appt with someone at Elliman on the opening day. By late afternoon 13 out of 15 units were all sold. Developer increased the prices the following day. Not a small but a significant increase. It is the most frustrating experience. Some units were bought by brokers and their closest clients/friends. You can never get access to the first offering because brokers and investors will take it for themselves. I actually wanted to live there and not flip the place. By the way the finishes were actually pretty bad but location and a highfloor unit was appealing.

[antinimby]

Here are some more renderings.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/6708/735sixthsn7.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7355/735sixth1bg0.jpg

And to think that at one time not too long ago, Con Edison wanted to build an ugly electrical substation on this site instead.

Thankfully that did not happen. This block and the whole area dodged a big bullet...

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/348/conedxp0.jpg

[Derek2k3]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/459333759_a6fda54307_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/459333757_9816257c73_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/459333751_211a1141e0_o.jpg
The base on this one looks a little more promising than the others.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/459333749_9d4ecf021c_o.jpg


This former flower district must be the most concentrated area of construction in Manhattan. Too bad the buildings are all so bland....it's like Kondylis-SLCE-Kaufman Central.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/234/459333903_4da7630802_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/234/459333895_f1e119b673_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/459333767_7532339729_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/221/459333755_2f035b955d_o.jpg
I guess it's just upper 6th Ave.'s residential counterpart.

[MidtownGuy]

What a shame. They're all so damn ugly.:cool:
I miss the flowers.

[lofter1]

What is going into the glassy low-rise section???

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7355/735sixth1bg0.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/459333751_211a1141e0_o.jpg

[antinimby]

Not sure. It could be space for a gym.

Here's another look at the interior courtyard:

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6559/chelseastratusep2.jpg

[stache]

Duane Reade?

[lofter1]

That rendering of the "interior courtyard" with the chaise lounges is hilarious ...

Of course NYers just love to lounge in the sun at street level.

The problem here is that the tower portion of the Stratus is to the south of the courtyard -- so other than early morning hours that courtyard will be in shadow almost all the time.

[asoroudi]

I believe the glassy section on the 3 floor will be a gym, lounge, & 1/2 court basketball court (north part). The 1st & 2nd floors will be retail.
Also, Lofter1 is correct. I hate the fact they depict these generated images of something that will never look the same when built.
Also, on their web site & in their sales office, they have been advertising a roof top terrace with the best views in Chelsea. I went through the entire 200+ pages of the offering plan, & not one mention of the roof top terrace. Their definition of a roof top terrace is on the 3rd floor, above the Zen garden, with a dog walk??? When I had my lawyers ask them, they said it's not in the offering plan, but they plan on building it. No guarantee's though. Only in NYC real estate can you get away with that.
Anyway, with all that said, I liked everything else about the building & I am in contract

[antinimby]

The problem here is that the tower portion of the Stratus is to the south of the courtyard -- so other than early morning hours that courtyard will be in shadow almost all the time.Only during the winter months, when the sun's angle is low on the horizon.

Otherwise, during the warmer months, the sun will be directly overhead so conceivably, the sun will get in there somehow.

The only mistake I see them making was unnecessarily tearing down that healthy walkup that was there on the 25 St. corner.

[nyrealestate]

I believe the glassy section on the 3 floor will be a gym, lounge, & 1/2 court basketball court (north part). The 1st & 2nd floors will be retail.
Also, Lofter1 is correct. I hate the fact they depict these generated images of something that will never look the same when built.
Also, on their web site & in their sales office, they have been advertising a roof top terrace with the best views in Chelsea. I went through the entire 200+ pages of the offering plan, & not one mention of the roof top terrace. Their definition of a roof top terrace is on the 3rd floor, above the Zen garden, with a dog walk??? When I had my lawyers ask them, they said it's not in the offering plan, but they plan on building it. No guarantee's though. Only in NYC real estate can you get away with that.
Anyway, with all that said, I liked everything else about the building & I am in contract

Wow, so much for the "rooftop" terrace.

Just curious, what do you think about the finishes in this building? Also, which unit did you get? Congrats by the way!

[bizzan]

I went to the sale office for this building and was very dissatisfied with the finishes relative to the price they were asking and the image of the building they were projecting.

Wow, so much for the "rooftop" terrace.

Just curious, what do you think about the finishes in this building? Also, which unit did you get? Congrats by the way!

[joesmailer]

Hi Guys, I just registered here but have been reading these posts for quite sometime. I was recently allowed to go up to the 36rd floor of the Stratus (in a construction hat!) and see how things are coming along. Let me be the first to tell you, the views from the south are unreal. I have never seen anything like this before. It was easily way better than what they show on their website. The Northen views are also really good, except anything lower than the 35th floor will have a semi-obstructed view by the rental across the street.

As for the prices, they are going up every week, it's insane. If they haven't already, I wouldnt be surprised if they broke $2000/sq foot by the end of April. Is it worth it? Who knows, but if Chelsea keeps growing the way it is, within a few years these units could be $2500/ft (the ones with crazy views).

Just my .02 cents!

>>Disclaimer, I recently contracted for a 2/2.5 unit. So my opinions are obviously not objective!

[BrooklynRider]

$2000/ft would clearly indicate that there is a sudden surge of ignorant buyers in the market, who have failed to do any homework and are willing to make a losing bet.

[joesmailer]

Looks like I wasn't too far off in my prediction. A few hours after I posted, this went online:

Price: $3,555,000 Approx: SqFT: 1,584 (http://elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=865831&rentalperiod=&SearchType=newestproperties#)

http://elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=865831&rentalperiod=&SearchType=newestproperties

[lofter1]

Maybe it's just me -- but the proportions regarding placement of glass <> cast stone seem off here ...

And the wonky curvy edges of the balconies / cast stone seem almost cartoonish (http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/gravesdisney/sideangle2.jpg) .

Plus I'm not crazy about the overall darkness of the materials (a bookend to the dark and dreary thing going up a few blocks south at 6th Avenue / 18th Street (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161300&postcount=17) ?).

***

[lofter1]

But at least the Stratus serves to hide this bit of banalism one block to the north ...

***

[alibrot]

i dont understand why that apartment is so much more than every other one. everything else in the building on the site is between $1300 and $1400 / sq ft. larger apartments tend to go for more per sq ft, especially 3 bedrooms, but 2250 is ridiculous for a 2 bd.

Looks like I wasn't too far off in my prediction. A few hours after I posted, this went online:

Price: $3,555,000 Approx: SqFT: 1,584 (http://elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=865831&rentalperiod=&SearchType=newestproperties#)

http://elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=865831&rentalperiod=&SearchType=newestproperties

[joesmailer]

Any unit from floor 32 and up is going for $1800+ because of the stunning views, nothing more. The lower floors have great views too, but not unobstructed like the 32-37 range.

[joesmailer]

Anyone take any new pictures, or have any interesting updates? It's been rather quiet here.

[antinimby]

It's completely topped out and it doesn't look much different than the photos you see above other than a few more floors covered with glass...is all I can tell you.

[nyrealestate]

It's completely topped out and it doesn't look much different than the photos you see above other than a few more floors covered with glass...is all I can tell you.

Since it's completely topped out, anyone know what the expected completion date is?

[joesmailer]

I heard move-in will be in May/June of 2008. Anyone hear anything else?

[jennicak]

I heard move-in will be in May/June of 2008. Anyone hear anything else?

add 6 months to that date. that is par for the course.

[ekartash]

we were told that it would be march - may of 2008. we are now hearing that they are 2 months ahead of schedule. so thats good news. i would be happy to see it up by may.

[nyrealestate]

I gave them a call and they said May - July 2008. They DO seem ahead of schedule though.

[nyrealestate]

Anyone have any thoughts on the location/area/neighborhood of the Chelsea stratus? It is a good area to live in?

I've heard some people complain about it being "right on top of a subway station", why is that bad? I would think the convenience would be highly prized.

Also, does anyone know anything about a poor history of this developer?

Thanks!

[stache]

I think with time this will become a better area. Close to shopping and lower midtown in general.

[nyrealestate]

stache, just curious, what makes you imply that this area is currently not that great?

I think with time this will become a better area. Close to shopping and lower midtown in general.

[stache]

Side streets are pretty good but there's a lot of junky discount wholesalers that bring down the area imo.

[nyrealestate]

Thanks stache,

Anyone have any thoughts on the living above a subway station thing?

[ekartash]

the station is on 23rd street. building is between 24th and 25th.

area is deffinetly changing. have lived here for only a year and a half, and have noticed drastic change. give it another year or two and a lot of the sketchy wholesalers will be gone. Sapa is right on 24th. and Veretal opened recently on 25th.

[MikeW]

I actually wandered into the sales office a week or two ago. IIRC there were no 1 beds lower than a million.

[nyrealestate]

I actually wondered into the sales office a week or two ago. IIRC there were no 1 beds lower than a million.

Looking at the availability sheet in front of me, you are correct.

[finnman69]

Maybe it's just me -- but the proportions regarding placement of glass <> cast stone seem off here ...

And the wonky curvy edges of the balconies / cast stone seem almost cartoonish (http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/gravesdisney/sideangle2.jpg) .

Plus I'm not crazy about the overall darkness of the materials (a bookend to the dark and dreary thing going up a few blocks south at 6th Avenue / 18th Street (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161300&postcount=17) ?).

***


what a fugly building. Absolutely strange. then again, every one of the new 6th ave chelsea buildings are awful (777 6th is the best looking).

[BrooklynRider]

The worst one was the first one that went up. They've gotten better.

[sfenn1117]

what a fugly building. Absolutely strange. then again, every one of the new 6th ave chelsea buildings are awful (777 6th is the best looking).

777 6th? Macklowe's building? That, and the red brick one are the worst. The Capitol at Chelsea is nice with its curves, the Aston isn't bad, and this one looks nice.

[pianoman11686]

Chelsea Stratus and its environs. Taken a few days ago:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/pianoman11686/SA700845.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/pianoman11686/SA700843.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/pianoman11686/SA700841.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/pianoman11686/SA700840.jpg

Don't even know/remember the name of this one:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/pianoman11686/SA700842.jpg

[sfenn1117]

^Chelsea Landmark. They are almost all Chelsea-something. :p

[BrooklynRider]

Yeah, really cashing in on that "Chelsea" name even though they are really pushing it being at 6th Ave.

[lofter1]

They are almost all Chelsea-something. :p

Waiting for Chelsea Morning :p :cool:

[stache]

I'm glad I have been in town long enough to remember the old plant district.

[lofter1]

Here, here ^^^

I walked by this one again today -- it's a mess.

The masonry is cumbersome. And a nasty pinkish color. The glass is dark and foreboding. The wing on the north side is massed as though someone were attempting to create a faux "rocky islands off the coast". There is no sense to any of it aside from odd attempts to masquerade that it is one big and awkward thang (reminds me of kd lang's "big boned girl").

The one (only?) good thing is that it blocks the view of the boring tower to the north. Another is that it overpowers the banal red tower acrss the street.

This group of 6 towers ne residenbal along this stretch of Sixth Avenue is really an embarassment -- NYers will be wise to steer visitors in another direction, lest one has to explain how this great city allowed such a collection of drek to go up here.

Sometimes a parking lot is a better solution.

[stache]

It's the Upper East Side all over again.

[ablarc]

This group of 6 towers ne residenbal along this stretch of Sixth Avenue is really an embarassment -- NYers will be wise to steer visitors in another direction, lest one has to explain how this great city allowed such a collection of drek to go up here.
Well, at least it's contextual to Sixth Avenue: a wall/cluster of boring but similar residential boxes to go with the wall/cluster of boring office boxes further uptown. Sixth Avenue: modern urbanism in the raw because driven by the market.

We'll get used to it, as we got used to that stretch above 42nd Street.

Sometimes a parking lot is a better solution.
NEVER!!

[lofter1]

Oh, yes ^^^ at least a parking lot can offer the possibility of something good. (Maybe not in Charlotte and envirions, but it can be true in NYC.) Once this drek goes up you're stuck with it for a lifetime (at least). Plus those lots offered flea markets etc. on weekends which enlivened the area. And then there were those blocks of unimpeded views of the ESB.

That area was quintessential NYC of a certain period -- but all good things must come to an end.

[pianoman11686]

I think some of these comments are a bit overdramatic. The area of new construction in question is all of, what - 4 blocks long? There are still plenty of lowrise, older buildings in either direction on 6th, over to the west in Little Korea, and to the east in the Flatiron District. And, while it's no longer the Flower District it once was, there are still a few flower shops operating in the area.

In other news, the Stratus is making a visible impact on the Hudson River skyline, much more so than any of the others.

[sfenn1117]

Exactly, none of these buildings are going to win design awards, and the retail truly is awful, but most of these buildings went up on parking lots. They have added thousands of units of housing, with a mix of condos and rentals. The flea markets are over by the Lincoln Tunnel now, so they are still around. Pockets of the flower district remain as well, you just have to know where to look. The plethora of McSam's in the area is much worse.

In other news, the Stratus is making a visible impact on the Hudson River skyline, much more so than any of the others.

Indeed it is, the new one at 29th/6th will be even more prevalent. We think nothing of 500 foot towers but a lot of them lately have made a quiet impact on the skyline (This, Skyhouse, Epic to name a few)

[nyrealestate]

Not knowing what the flower district is, I googled and found this thread that might be of interest to some.

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4759

[Derek2k3]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4016/dscn15880015cq2.jpg
elsonic
elsonic (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=131927)

I hate this building, it looks plastic.

[Derek2k3]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1395/732972469_618afaefa0_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1379/732970875_893c31d9ae_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1246/732972579_070c6fee97_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1312/732972597_b4d07846fb_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1085/733887056_238a4a9695_o.jpg

[lofter1]

So many things about this one are just plain wrong ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Chelsea/Stratus_04a.jpg

[stache]

WTF is up with that low rise addition???

[lofter1]

"WTF" is right.

That seemingly seemless / edgeless black expanse of glass is weird.

Me fears the box atop the corner piece will get the same treatment.

I can't even think of a place where such a thing would look good.

[stache]

Do you think it's a widow's watch, or what?

[lofter1]

For all those Chelsea "widows"?

[stache]

You cut so close to the bone!

[lofter1]

Maybe they'll enclose this one in clear glass and have non-stop go-go dancers prancing above Sixth Avenue ...

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Chelsea/Stratus_04a.jpg

[nyrealestate]

Based on their documentation, I think that's the gym.

[lofter1]

go-go dancers <> gym-rats ...

same thing ... or near enough, eh?

[asoroudi]

Anyone know who owns the air rights to 112 West 25th, or how many floors they are allowed to build on that lot. This lot is located directly due west of the Chelsea Stratus.





Extell buys Chelsea garage, flea market site

http://www.therealdeal.net//breaking_news/2007/07/03/images/10715.jpg (javascript:openpopup('http://www.therealdeal.net//breaking_news/2007/07/03/images/10715.jpg',150,115,true);)
112 West 25th Street

One of the last remnants of the old Chelsea Flea Market seems likely to shutter following Extell Development's purchase of a three-story garage at 112 West 25th Street. Extell paid $42.7 million for the building, according to public records.

The property, which is a car garage during the week, has been cleared out on weekends for the Antiques Garage since 1994. The space is given over to vendors on Saturdays and Sundays as part of the larger Chelsea Flea Market, which relocated to Hell's Kitchen a few years ago. The Chelsea Flea Market had been based on Sixth Avenue between 25th and 26th streets for nearly three decades. The Antiques Garage currently operates under the umbrella of the Hell's Kitchen Flea Market, and a shuttle runs between the two sites.

Calls to the Hell's Kitchen Flea Market about the sale of the Antiques Garage building were not returned.

The site Extell purchased, which extends through to 24th Street, can support a commercial building or hotel of up to 167,450 square feet, which puts the price per buildable square foot at $255.

IR Parking is the garage's operator, and sources at the company said its lease on the space is set to expire in a little more than a year.

Calls to Extell about the firm's development plans were not returned. TRD

[lofter1]

The Extell lot is a fat "L" shape (10' wider on W 25 where frontage = 85' than on W 24 where frontage = 75') with sf = ~ 15,600.

The article above says the Extell building can be max. 167,450 sf

If Extell builds a fat & squat building and max out the sf then the building would be ~ 11 stories.

But if you look at The Stratus lot you find it's another fat "L"-shaped plot -- and measures about 25,300 sf (there is a 40' x 82' 112-story condo building on W 25 between the Stratus site and this new Extell site -- Stratus abuts the Extell site on W. 24). DOB says Stratus is 323,127 sf total; the shortest building at the given lot size (again fat & squat) would be about 13 stories.

But The Stratus rises to 40 stories.

A document at NYC Department of Finance (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/jump/acris.shtml) for The Stratus (Block 800 / Lot 37) contains this: "Exhibit F: Light and Air Easement Agreement" (Page 43 of 47 from "Declaration of Development Rights" @ 8.30.2006); included are the drawings attached below. Also included in that document is language guaranteeing light / air rights into the future.

Someone smarter than me might be able to tell us what this means regarding how tall Extell can go at the lot next door.

+++

[nyrealestate]

Are those diagrams for the Chelsea Stratus? Or for the building next to it (the one that recently got acquired)?

Either way, I have no clue what they represent.

[lofter1]

They are diagrams for the Stratus site -- seemingly for the parcel at the west side of the Stratus building on W 24th which was cantilevered over.

[nyrealestate]

Actually that Extell lot isn't the lot directly next to Chelsea Stratus. It's one building over. There is another building directly due west of Chelsea Stratus.

[lofter1]

The property just to the west of Stratus on W. 24 is semi-technically a part of the Stratus site -- due to an agreement regarding easement / air rights (which can be found at the NYC DOF website).

The property just to the west on W. 25 is NOT part of the Stratus site.

[MFL101]

Hello All,

I am seriously considering buying an apartment in the Chelsea Stratus.

The location on 24th/25th and 6th is just so hot right now and I think it's a great investment opportunity. They are asking 1.86m for a 2 bedroom, south facing, great view, upper floor, 1286sqft.

What do you all think about it?

The ammenities offered by the building seem top-notch. I really like that they have guranteed their air/light rights from next door to protect the outside areas and views. That line about the roof deck not in the offering plan is BS according to the sales team.

Does anyone have any tips or comments about this place to help me out? Not really concerned with comments on the exterior...everything they are throwing up is cookie cutter and nothing amazing.

I am just looking for a great investment property I can live in for the next 3-5 years and make a good return on!

What do you think?

[nyrealestate]

Hello All,

I am seriously considering buying an apartment in the Chelsea Stratus.

The location on 24th/25th and 6th is just so hot right now and I think it's a great investment opportunity. They are asking 1.86m for a 2 bedroom, south facing, great view, upper floor, 1286sqft.

What do you all think about it?

The ammenities offered by the building seem top-notch. I really like that they have guranteed their air/light rights from next door to protect the outside areas and views. That line about the roof deck not in the offering plan is BS according to the sales team.

Does anyone have any tips or comments about this place to help me out? Not really concerned with comments on the exterior...everything they are throwing up is cookie cutter and nothing amazing.

I am just looking for a great investment property I can live in for the next 3-5 years and make a good return on!

What do you think?

I'm guessing you are looking at the D line correct? As I recall, when I went up to check out the building a few months ago, the views facing south were spectacular.

The biggest plus to me for this building is the location. You are within a few blocks of 5 subway stations.

I'll go back and take a look at my notes to see if I remember anything else. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the finishes weren't as great as they'd like, you might want to go back and read this thread from the beginning.

[MFL101]

Yes, I did read the entire thread on the subject.

I am wondering how the finishes could not be that great since they are using top of the line brands, but I guess I will see today when I go to the sales office.

In terms of negotiation on price...is there any? Or if the finishes aren't top of the line I was told that sometimes you can negotiate to have them upgraded.

I agree that the location is absolutely great. Path, F/V, R/W, 1/9 all within 1 avenue. That's as good as it gets. With that said there are also a couple seedy shops relatively close, but I believe that they will soon be pirced out of the area. People who normally spend upwards of a million dollars on an apartment don't usually go to porno shops on their corner (they order from the internet! :D)

6th ave. below 23rd is protected by the Lady's Mile historical district, or so I was told. So it is unlikely that anything will be allowed anywhere close to 20 stories or so, ensuring the view for the future.

[lofter1]

DO NOT believe the sales people in regards to such things as the roof deck.

If you don't see it in writing (and read all the fine print relating to the roof deck and other "public" areas) it's not part of the deal.

It wouldn't be the first time that a great amenity like that was shown in the initial sales PR and then just happened to disappear during construction.

[ekartash]

we signed a contract at the stratus back in the spring. i am obviously biased, but i am not sure why people think the finishes look cheap. they are using top of the line appliances/finishes. i think they look very slick, without being overly too modern.

what are they telling you in terms of closing? we were told the building should be finished next may.

[nyrealestate]

DO NOT believe the sales people in regards to such things as the roof deck.

If you don't see it in writing (and read all the fine print relating to the roof deck and other "public" areas) it's not part of the deal.

It wouldn't be the first time that a great amenity like that was shown in the initial sales PR and then just happened to disappear during construction.

Agreed, this applies universally.

As someone mentioned before, the dog run on the roof is not in the offering plan.

I checked on the closing dates a few weeks ago and the sales office told me July.

[MFL101]

I was told May-June 2008 for closing.

Also, the dog run might not be on the offering...but the roof deck is, I was guranteed that. I am still going to search that offering plan though.

Personally, I rather take my dog (if I had one) to the madison square park dog run than the top of the Stratus!


Can anyone advise me on price neogitations? Is it possible...how should it be done? I am not sure how flexable things are...I am going there in a few hours, so it would help greatly!

[nyrealestate]

I was told May-June 2008 for closing.

Also, the dog run might not be on the offering...but the roof deck is, I was guranteed that. I am still going to search that offering plan though.

Personally, I rather take my dog (if I had one) to the madison square park dog run than the top of the Stratus!


Can anyone advise me on price neogitations? Is it possible...how should it be done? I am not sure how flexable things are...I am going there in a few hours, so it would help greatly!

Are you represented by an agent? If not, you might have a little extra leeway. You can try to argue for them to pay the mansion tax / transfer tax, etc. But I think it will be tough.

You can also get your lawyer to help you negotiate, he might know additional tricks. Unless you have already received the offering plan, you don't need to settle the price just yet.

[MFL101]

I have an agent I am working with. It would be nice to have transfer/mansion taxes paid by the building. That would be a reasonable price deduction.

If I want to see the offering plan I must make an offer, correct?

How do I go about doing that so that my negotiated discounts are included and all. Should my lawyer submit the offer or my agent?

[nyrealestate]

I have an agent I am working with. It would be nice to have transfer/mansion taxes paid by the building. That would be a reasonable price deduction.

If I want to see the offering plan I must make an offer, correct?

How do I go about doing that so that my negotiated discounts are included and all. Should my lawyer submit the offer or my agent?

You will have to make a deposit ($250 I think) to secure the offering plan and the contract. Then you will have a period of time to review the offering plan and contract with your lawyer. It is during this period you (or preferably, your lawyer) will try to get them to amend the price of the contract.

If you aren't satisfied for any reason (no roof deck mentioned, etc.), you can always return the offering plan and get your deposit back. Until the contract is signed by you and returned, you aren't under any obligation to purchase.

[MFL101]

Wonderful.

Why the $250 deposit if you get it back if you decide not to go forward? Do you have to supply some sort of reason?

It's worth it to see and check the offering plan closely

[nyrealestate]

Wonderful.

Why the $250 deposit if you get it back if you decide not to go forward? Do you have to supply some sort of reason?

It's worth it to see and check the offering plan closely

Again, talk to your agent and the sales agent, they'll guide you through this.

Let us know how it goes! Good Luck!

[joesmailer]

"6th ave. below 23rd is protected by the Lady's Mile historical district, or so I was told. So it is unlikely that anything will be allowed anywhere close to 20 stories or so, ensuring the view for the future."

*** can anyone tell me if this is 100% confirmed, and where I can read about this? If this is true, then those southern units are worth quite a bunch, if they are indeed protected for years to come.

[stache]

It's a relatively new building, and that's the maximum height they were allowed to build. There were years of legal battles about this.

[joesmailer]

So you think 20 stories will be the max south of 24th for quite sometime? I guess that is until someone overturns the ruling.

I did research that Ladies Mile District and it seems it starts on 22nd street, 23rd is outside it's protection.

[MFL101]

See the above post about the Caroline...

It's

[MFL101]

See the above post about the Caroline...

It's about 20 stories max...and they had to fight to get that.


With that said....I put money down for an offering plan..but now I am debaiting...

The finishes aren't the best....but that's not entirely what you are paying for. The appliances are pretty second-rate. The cabinets are a wood veneer.

BUT...the southern facing units above the 20th floor are going to continue to be worth more and more. With their views unobstructed to Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island.

I am on the fence about the building....we shall see.

[joesmailer]

The post about the Caroline doesn't help unfortunately, it was built in the protected Ladies' District. The parcel of land I am talking about is direct south of the Stratus, 23rd-24th/6th. It is the old Coop building lot. This land is on the border of the protected zone, but not in it.

[MFL101]

I am aware of the co-op. It's not going anywhere anytime soon. Co-ops tend to be harder to just tear down than commercial type buildings. Let's say for the sake of argument that it does get developed on. They could not go higher than the Caroline and would have to be set back for shadows and such. Thus, if you have a south facing apartment above the 20th-22nd floor you will most likely have great views for some time to come.

[joesmailer]

But the lot across from the stratus is one block higher then the Caroline, that's what I'm getting at. The Caroline had a hard time getting 20 floors because it was in the protected zone, the coop's footprint is not.

I'm only this concerned because I purchased a s-facing apt in the Stratus, and want some reassurance that a huge building won't block my view in 3 years. I'd like nothing more than to be shown the light. =)

[stache]

IMO you made a good one. Your best bet is to read the Chelsea Clinton News online, they're pretty good about early news on new buildings. My feeling is the owners of the co-op would wait a long time to sell out.

[joesmailer]

Thanks. You have a link for that newspaper? I couldn't find the online version, just news on Chelsea Clinton. :)

[stache]

I had a thought you may not like but here goes. The co-op could possibly sell all or part of their air rights to the bagel place and hardware store buildings and they could build a sliver.

[joesmailer]

Yup, that was what I was getting at. But I guess with a half a block footprint, it would be difficult to get over 20 stories again.

[RRajmane]

Hi Everyone:

I am a first time poster, so I hope that this is question/ comment is placed appropriatiely.

I am considering purchasing unit #18A. It currently has a partially obstructed northwest view with the water tower in the adjacent builiding to the west on 25th St.

The view to the west is unobstructed. Does anyone have any update on the potential size of the Extell building? The A line on the 18th floor is discounted compared to its counterpart on the E line. The view from the E line to the east/ NE is filled with rental towers.

Is LCOR's makreting stratergy to discount the A line because they anticipate obstructed views?

[stache]

I'm assuming you read post #100 in this thread?

[RRajmane]

I'm assuming you read post #100 in this thread?


Thanks, I did. However, I could not figure out if the projected height of the Extel tower at 11 stories would be the shortest configuration of the square footage.

[stache]

When lofter comes back from his vacation, he might be able to help you further.

[chiax2]

my brother knows someone work at Extell Development, i'll try to ask if he knows about that building. i'll get back to you . chelsea stratus looks cheap though.

[chiax2]

i heard they are going to build something close to 20th floors, but will take couple years to do it, hope that help

[RRajmane]

20 stories seems to make sense given the square feet imprint. I've decided to wait and see. Thanks for the input.

[Derek2k3]

chelsea stratus looks cheap though.
What I've thought from day one.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1393/1024871954_1945d49e54.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1024871954&size=l)
wjpbennett (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wjpbennett/)

[nyrealestate]

Read on curbed.com that LCOR is reporting that the Stratus is over 60% sold. Whether that's a good thing or not, I have no clue.

[lofter1]

Also read on CURBED about pre-construction buyer woes ...

[nyrealestate]

Also read on CURBED about pre-construction buyer woes ...

Not related to Stratus right?

There was a blurb on the Ariel Condos.

Good to see you back, lofter.

[MFL101]

So I am commited in this building....so it may effect my bias

I did think that the finishes were slightly average (not necessarly cheap by any means, just not the best I have seen). The gym/basket ball/roof deck/ billards, etc. looks great. They are all pretty much guranteed in the offering plan. I don't think LCOR would sabotage themselves and not deliver.

I personally think that the building looks a TON better than all the other buildings in the area (that's not saying much though).

In my opinion, if you buy a southern facing unit above the 20th/22nd floor you will not be obstructed for probably the next 10 years. That's a pretty good investment in my opinion. Live there for 5 years or so, sell and make a pretty good return on your investment.

I personally love the area, a lot of action and great for younger peope looking to have some fun. It is currently a booming spot for development so in the next 5 years or so it is totally going to change (moving less upscale places out).

I think that the penthouse units are very overpriced, but with any penthouse...they are marketing to people who plan to live there for awhie and love the lifestyle choice...not really gunning for the investor.

I like the fact that most of the units have a nice sized balcony (12' x 5') and a storage room included (30 sqft). Many other buildings will nickle and dime you for these things.

So basically, after looking for about 2 years for a good investment/place to live for a few years, I decided on the Stratus. Nice price point and a nice place to live.

[BrooklynRider]

LCOR is a respected developer and they are using better Interior Designers on their buildings than you typically find in residential development.

[Derek2k3]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/1294885568_43fd5893b8_o.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1247/1294885542_dcdb91873e_o.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/1294885550_c99a4893ff_o.jpg

[lofter1]

Can someone answer me this:

Did the Stratus gang use cheesy glass to distract from the cruddy faux-masonry?

Or did they use cruddy faux-masonry in an attempt to distract from the cheesy glass?

:confused:

[stache]

that the composite stone goes up the the mechanical housing level on the south wall, but doesn't go up that far on the western exposure. Looks weird to me -

[antinimby]

The Stratus doesn't bother me. A nice break from all the flat, broad brick towers in the area.

[BrooklynRider]

Can someone answer me this:

Did the Stratus gang use cheesy glass to distract from the cruddy faux-masonry?

Or did they use cruddy faux-masonry in an attempt to distract from the cheesy glass?

:confused:

I think they just wore cruddy glasses as they came up with the design.

[RRajmane]

The finishes and the facade are good enough for me! The views are the real attraction, and coupled with its central location, the Stratus is unbeatable for me.

I finally comitted to purchasing a 20+ unit in the B line. Any update on the proposed Extell hotel to be built at 112 W. 25th St. (Antique Garage site)?

Also, are there proposals to build in excess of twenty stories to the south?

[lofter1]

If it would mean that we are spared the site of looking at the ugly face of the Stratus I would wish they could build tall to the south.

WIth the Landmarked Ladies Mile district below 23rd Street I think about the only place they can go tall is on the west side of Sixth Ave between 23 / 24 -- directly south of the Stratus.

[Front_Porch]

The finishes are not the most expensive, but they are w-a-a-y better than I had been led to believe given the negative chatter. I found this one to be a pleasant surprise.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

[nyrealestate]

If it would mean that we are spared the site of looking at the ugly face of the Stratus I would wish they could build tall to the south.

WIth the Landmarked Ladies Mile district below 23rd Street I think about the only place they can go tall is on the west side of Sixth Ave between 23 / 24 -- directly south of the Stratus.

I personally see nothing ugly with how the Stratus looks. It's much better than the electric substation that was supposed to be there!

That said, I do agree with other posters that its central location, price point, and finishes make for a good investment/place to live.

[lofter1]

None of that ^^^ changes my opinion that the Stratus is one of the grossest new buildings to go up in midtown. It succeeds in standing out from the crowd by its bad proportions, nauseating coloration, cheap looking glass and awkward massing.

At least a substation on that site would have sat low -- and its face wouldn't have been seen for blocks around like some obnoxious newcomer desperate to be on everyone's tongue.

Big ungainly piles hovering over histroic / protected districts are some of the least welcome additions to our cityscape.

[joesmailer]

Lofter, I can't take your unfounded criticism any longer.

Most normal people in NYC think it's great when dilapidated old buildings, parking lots, and abandoned units are torn down and replaced with beautiful new high rises.

These new developments bring a ton of new money into the area, which means more restaurants, stores, even tax-revenue for the city. All good things for everyone involved.

Let me guess if you had it your way, all of NYC would be untouched since the 1700's. Sounds like a place I'd like to live in. Maybe we should go back to cobblestone roads and ban all the cars to make way for the horse and buggies? Give it a rest, and start accepting something called "PROGRESS".

[lofter1]

I love new buildings that look good.

This one don't cut the mustard :cool:

[Front_Porch]

There's a man who is convinced; L1 even went back to his old avatar to say that!

ali r.
{downtown broker}

ps: I like the Stratus, but as an agent I am concerned with insides.

[BrooklynRider]

Most normal people in NYC think it's great when dilapidated old buildings, parking lots, and abandoned units are torn down and replaced with beautiful new high rises.

Normal? I've lived here all my life and the word "normal" applies to no one in this city.

These new developments bring a ton of new money into the area, which means more restaurants, stores, even tax-revenue for the city. All good things for everyone involved.

I have to object to the presumption that you know what is good for "everyone." Or, is that every normal one?

Let me guess if you had it your way, all of NYC would be untouched since the 1700's.

I'm curious why you wouldn't go back further. Was there something great in place here in NYC between 1624 and the mid 1700's?


Maybe we should go back to cobblestone roads and ban all the cars to make way for the horse and buggies?

I'd go for that in a minute. If we can't get back to cobblestones and horse & buggies, I'll gladly settle for congestion pricing or an all out ban on automobiles.

Oh, and I think the Stratus is dull, dull, dull.

I recognize that for some any development is representative of progress, but if one follows development as closely as someone like, say, Lofter, then the opinion has some weight to it. In my experience of his posts, he shows great knowledge and consideration - even if he can't get over 10-12 Barclay Street due to some genetic disposition toward repulsion at the sight of it.

[lofter1]

There are angles where the S**tus blocks the view of the ESB -- then I hate it as much as I do 10 Barclay.

But not NORMAL-ly ;)

[joesmailer]

"Normal" refers to the majority of NY'ers. It's cool, I get that you are one of those die-hard preservationists. I guess we'll agree to disagree. I think the Stratus looks pretty good as far as new towers go.

I do agree that their interiors could be a tad more upgraded, but the views this building has are worth every dollar. If you haven't been up there yet I can't suggest it more strongly. It's quite stunning.

[lofter1]

Joe, you're missing the point ...

Never have I written that the former parking lot upon which the Stratus is now rising should have been preserved -- ergo I am not, as you describe, a die-hard preservationist.

It's not about keeping all that came befoe. But rather creating buildings / developments / a city that looks, functions and serves better than what previously existed. While there is a huge plus which comes when real estate taxes from new development are put into the city coffers, those benefits are somewhat mitigated by the visual assault that certain buildings bring with them.

If we were to follow the logic which was expressed earlier whereby all new building in NYC = PROGRESS then WNYers would all just have to shut up. That just ain't gonna happen.

[joesmailer]

But your logic doesn't make any sense:

You say " Never have I written that the former parking lot upon which the Stratus is now rising should have been preserved "

and

"But rather creating buildings / developments / a city that looks, functions and serves better than what previously existed."

So by that logic you should be praising the Stratus for building upon a parking lot. Unless you are going to try and argue that the parking lot served a more functional purpose for the city then a 40 story building?

[lofter1]

It's called a sense of balance, JM ...

Is money the only thing that makes you sing?

If so Stratus might be for you.

But not for me.

btw: Did they fix those wavy pinkish windows there yet?

[joesmailer]

Money and a view are pretty high up there. I'll spend the majority of my time looking OUT of the building not at it.

I'll agree it's not going to win any design awards, but the stratus will definitely serve it's purpose, as you put it.

[lofter1]

Its most obvious purpose is to put money in the pockets of a taste-free developer.

From the NY Times obituary (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=189838&postcount=1) of the recently-departed Herbert Muschamp:



... One of his great themes was that New York deserved real architecture, for our times —

— not what developers often try to pass off.

[BrooklynRider]

We do live in troubling times. Given his principles, we are getting exactly what he called for - troubling architecture. (Or is it non-architecture)

[lofter1]

There is a HUGE difference between architecture which expresses these troubled, fractured times and, on the other hand, some bad excuse for a building which expresses only the cheapness and lack of vision of a developer.

[nyrealestate]

I think the main point JM was making was that an apartment building such as CS is built to serve it's primary purpose - provide a living space for its tenants.

It wasn't built to please lofter1's or any random passer-by's architectural tastes. It wasn't built to visually improve our cityspace. It's built for a purpose and it does that well (I have made my point previously in this thread why I think CS is a great building to live in).

That said, lofter1 mentioned balance. And given the various opinions in this thread, I think we can agree that CS's decent to "ugly" outside is balanced by the well-liked and functional inside.

To claim that a parking garage or an electrical substation would "look, function and serve" the city better is just plain ridiculous.

ps. I'm all for an automobile ban also.

[joesmailer]

Well said, thanks for helping me clarify my point.

[lupus1]

what makes the interior so bad? people are concerned with its quality. can you more specific. am an interested buyer, possibly in this place, but equally not.

has anyone been up to view the building interior?

[stache]

Read post #149 in this thread.

[joesmailer]

I've been up there, but it's just concrete and some drywall for now.

[lofter1]

Since there is nothing but concrete / drywall upstairs at this point ^^^ it seems everyone is judging the "interiors" here based on what was seen either (1) in pictures or (2) at a model unit.

Given the experiences of other buildings around town and the complaints with the actual finishes in those buildings (Grand Madison, 10 WEA, Lin, Orion) which have been posted here it will be interesting to see where the S**tus sits once folks actually move in and see / experience what the finishes are really like.

[nyrealestate]

Since there is nothing but concrete / drywall upstairs at this point ^^^ it seems everyone is judging the "interiors" here based on what was seen either (1) in pictures or (2) at a model unit.

Given the experiences of other buildings around town and the complaints with the actual finishes in those buildings (Grand Madison, 10 WEA, Lin, Orion) which have been posted here it will be interesting to see where the S**tus sits once folks actually move in and see / experience what the finishes are really like.

It goes without saying that we're all judging by what we've been shown and told by the sales people. None of us can predict how it will ultimately turn out.

S**tus? I can only guess at what you're implying here, but I wouldn't lower myself to that level. ;)

[MFL101]

All I know is that I went up to the floor I purchased (above 20) and saw the view...it's pretty great. See both rivers, Ellis Island, top of the Statue of Liberty, Freedom Tower Site, etc.

I think this building will turn into a suprise.

I would really like to hear more about what will be going on in the garage next door and when.

[joesmailer]

MFL101 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/member.php?u=13460),

The views are stunning the further up you go. Next time try going up a little higher into the 30's it's amazing how far you can see. I agree come this time next year, a lot of people will be singing a different song (except for Lofter of course). :)

[lofter1]

You're right there ^^^

[nyrealestate]

Curbed has a rumor (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/10/22/curbedwire_times_building_wall_of_death_chelsea_fo ur_seasons_rumors_serial_car_torchings_in_burg.php )about the site next to CS. The rumor is that a Four Seasons hotel will be built there.

[Skylimitone]

10.21.2007

https://community.emporis.com/images/6/2007/10/567614.jpg

https://community.emporis.com/images/6/2007/10/567612.jpg

[stache]

the Verizon reclad steals a lot of thunder from the B of A bldg. when one is looking uptown.

[lofter1]

Curbed has a rumor (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/10/22/curbedwire_times_building_wall_of_death_chelsea_fo ur_seasons_rumors_serial_car_torchings_in_burg.php )about the site next to CS. The rumor is that a Four Seasons hotel will be built there.


A commentor pointed out at CURBED that it is far more likely that the correct answer regarding this site could be a Kaufman / McSam Four POINTS-type hotel (rather than Four SEASONS).

However, NYC Department of Finance shows a deed for this property (112-118 W. 25th / 113-117 W. 24th; Block / Lot: 800/49) dated 6.20.2007 between "112-118 W. 25th LLC" c/o EXTELL Development Company and the Anglo Irish Bank Corporation PLC.

Time will tell ...

[NYatKNIGHT]

the Verizon reclad steals a lot of thunder from the B of A bldg. when one is looking uptown....and this building steals from both when looking from even further downtown, though BoA still rises a bit higher.

[BrooklynRider]

Curbed has a rumor (http://curbed.com/archives/2007/10/22/curbedwire_times_building_wall_of_death_chelsea_fo ur_seasons_rumors_serial_car_torchings_in_burg.php )about the site next to CS. The rumor is that a Four Seasons hotel will be built there.

That's a bad guess, not a rumor. Not happening.

[Derek2k3]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2113/1754363466_82fe911be6_o.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/1754363500_968f4b33a7_o.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2045/1754363486_efeb32fff5_o.jpg

[pricedout]

I don't think we're going to look back in forty years and hate these new buildings as much as we do the ones that were slapped up in the 70's-early 80's. But that's not much of a basis for a standard, is it?

We have a great city. Developers are peddling these very small boxes for a lot of money. We really could do better.

[stache]

Love your handle!

[alonzo-ny]

Those condos around six north of 23rd all make me puke, i see them up close and personal every day at work. a good what not to do example.

[lofter1]

This is one building which might actually benefit from the inclusion of illuminated advertising and various other spectaculars.

[Skylimitone]

Yeah but where will they go?

[lofter1]

I guess you're right ^^^

Where on this building is there anything that looks like a video screen?

Oh, well ... back to the drawing board :o

[boogi]

I'm interested in possibly buying a condo at the Chelsea Stratus and read in the thread about buying new construction condominiums that it was a good idea to research the developer and its prior projects. I've tried searching Google and The Real Deal for info about LCOR but I haven't really found too much. I know they recently completed The Charleston but there isn't very much info in that thread regarding the actual quality of the building or the construction, either.

I was hoping someone could shed some light on the reputation that LCOR has as a developer or the reputation that the Chelsea Stratus has in the real estate community. I know that a few people in this thread aren't very fond of the building aesthetics and that the interior finishes aren't necessarily top notch, but I was wondering how this project compares to others in the area. Is it supposedly second-rate or is it just as good as most of the other condos in the area in terms of investment potential? Thanks!

[MidtownGuy]

Why, oh WHY, do they insist on creating these horrible bases that completely lack personality, warmth and charm?? This is as bad as as it gets. Sixth avenue along that corridor has been loaded up to the sky with ugly. All that development, and what a wasted opportunity to have a beautiful line up of towers. Instead we got this row of cheap looking junk. Same thing over there in the W. 42 St. area. Years from now we certainly will be criticising them, people will wonder how a relatively prosperous era produced such a plethora of homely crap. This stuff is crowding out and diluting the quality stuff. Years ago they could make any type of housing look dignified, nowadays even the buildings for well-to-do professionals mostly look like sh*t (except for a small handful). For all the hundreds of millions of dollars they spend putting these piles up, do you mean to tell me developers can't show more pride or at least better taste than what's exhibited here? And if not, there ought to be standards of design quality that they are held to. Don't worry, they'll still build, they're making bundles off of these projects; sometimes rich greedy * just need to be forced to do the right thing. A forty story eyesore is a heck of a lot more offensive than a parking lot flea market.

[Front_Porch]

boogi -- I am a real estate agent who serves downtown, and I have looked at the Stratus, along with many other buildings, on a search I am doing with a client I met on wiredny.

All real estate agents work for the seller, technically, so it's a violation of our ethics (yes, they do exist) to just slam a building outright. As a result, when I talk about a building, I talk about its good points, or balance its good and bad points.

However, I have to say with the Stratus I've been pleasantly surprised. I would caution you that I think it's a "view" building, and you therefore want to buy the best view you can afford (the personal finance expert Ilyce Glink often says this about investment condos), and I would also argue, if you're investing, that we might get in an interest rate storm in the next few years, so don't overstretch yourself.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

[ekartash]

does anyone if they are still running on time for may/june finish?

[Front_Porch]

ekartash, you just asked about closing dates at the Sheffield, how many apartments are you buying????

ali r.
{downtown broker}

[ekartash]

hahaha. parents are buying at the sheffield. a small apartment to get out of long island a few times a week. my wife and i bought at the stratus. we did not buy for the views, as we plan on living there. we went for space instead. sales office said they're moving on time. but i do not trust any sales office. i thought you might have more info as a broker.

[boogi]

boogi -- I am a real estate agent who serves downtown, and I have looked at the Stratus, along with many other buildings, on a search I am doing with a client I met on wiredny.

All real estate agents work for the seller, technically, so it's a violation of our ethics (yes, they do exist) to just slam a building outright. As a result, when I talk about a building, I talk about its good points, or balance its good and bad points.

However, I have to say with the Stratus I've been pleasantly surprised. I would caution you that I think it's a "view" building, and you therefore want to buy the best view you can afford (the personal finance expert Ilyce Glink often says this about investment condos), and I would also argue, if you're investing, that we might get in an interest rate storm in the next few years, so don't overstretch yourself.

ali r.
{downtown broker}
Thanks for your input, Ali. I really appreciate it. I am looking at a few different units at the Stratus and it seems the ones on the lower floors (floors 4-7) have higher ceilings by about two feet or so. This is a feature that I like but would gladly exchange for a higher floor / better view if that will make a bigger difference when it comes to marketability in the end. Also, do you think units with 1.5 baths are significantly more marketable than units with only 1 bath, or do you believe that the single most important factor for units at the Stratus is the view (price and square footage being relatively equal.)

Finally, do you think it would be worthwhile to check out a few units at the Charleston just to see how a "finished" product developed by LCOR turns out? I've only gotten to see the model kitchen of the Stratus at the sales office, but after looking at the pictures on the Charleston website, it seems that much of the kitchen is the same. Do you think the Charleston would be indicative of the build quality of the Stratus once it is completed, or are the two projects too different to really compare? Thanks again for all your help.

[ekartash]

Boogi, send me an email. we can talk about the stratus. i'll tell you about my buying experience. and i am curious as to what the sales office is telling you now. ekartash@hotmail.com

[Front_Porch]

Well, there you go, ekartash and boogi, you've met each other, and my work as a yenta is done . . .

EK -- I do know more about closing schedules than any ordinary human, but because the Stratus was just one stop on a buyer's tour, I don't have any recent news . .. and unlike the Sheffield, the sales office is too far from my house for me to drop by and ask . . .

Boogi -- I would say "better view" trumps "ceiling height" definitely, as far as resale . . . in terms of picking a layout as far as the 1.5 bath vs. the 1, I would have to see it . . . and even then, resale isn't everything. If the feature is worth it to you and you're going to be there for a few years, then it may amortize out . . .

ali r.
{downtown broker}

[MFL101]

If you want to know about the buying experience too, contact me at Msimon101@hotmail.com

I also would be interested in knowing what they are saying.

I was lucky enough to get a "D" line above 25...which apparently were the ones that went super fast.

[nyrealestate]

Boogi, I'd be interested in what the sales office is telling you right now also.

If you don't mind, since there are quite a few of us that are interested, could you please post what you hear from them here?

Thanks!

[ekartash]

i just called the sales office. we can actually go up and see our apartment. i think we'll do that next week. they appear to be ahead of schedule, but are still sticking with early may closings (for lower floors). i will post after i go up there, and see how the actual finishes compare to the model.

[boogi]

Boogi, I'd be interested in what the sales office is telling you right now also.

If you don't mind, since there are quite a few of us that are interested, could you please post what you hear from them here?

Thanks!
I've only had a relatively short preliminary meeting with the sales office so I don't really have very much to report right now. If you have any specific questions, though, I can try to see if I can find out the answers for you.

[boogi]

i just called the sales office. we can actually go up and see our apartment. i think we'll do that next week. they appear to be ahead of schedule, but are still sticking with early may closings (for lower floors). i will post after i go up there, and see how the actual finishes compare to the model.
If they let you (and you don't mind, of course) could you see if you could take a few pictures of the apartment just so we can actually see what the bedrooms and living areas look like? I'd really be interested in seeing an actual (even unfinished) apartment in case they don't let me up there. Thanks!

[Templeton]

I really like this building - I think it fits really well in the neighborhood and skyline. I think that is on the northern-most edge of desirable Chelsea, and I think the lower floors are going to get killed with 6th avenue traffic noise. Has anyone looked at the quality of the finishes yet? When is the expected closing date?

[jc2k]

does anyone know how much one and two bedrooms at the stratus are going for per sqft? Also can you bargain with them off the inital offering prices,and do they offering any incentives? thanks for your help in advance.

[boogi]

I really like this building - I think it fits really well in the neighborhood and skyline. I think that is on the northern-most edge of desirable Chelsea, and I think the lower floors are going to get killed with 6th avenue traffic noise. Has anyone looked at the quality of the finishes yet? When is the expected closing date?
I think the general consensus seems to be that the finishes aren't quite the best, but they're certainly not the worst either. I heard the expected closing date is still May/June 2008.

does anyone know how much one and two bedrooms at the stratus are going for per sqft? Also can you bargain with them off the inital offering prices,and do they offering any incentives? thanks for your help in advance.
I don't think they've been too open to bargaining or giving out incentives yet.

[RRajmane]

I agree about the finishes. They are nice enough but nothing to crow about. The facade of the building is rather utilitarian. However, the Stratus offers stupendous views, great layouts, and a more user friendly neighobrhood than new developments farther west.

I am excited about my new south facing apt! Is there any new news on the Extel Hotel tower?

[MFL101]

No negotiation in price at this time...they only have like 20 units left and sales have been going strong...most places don't do discounts unless they experiencing rough sales. Price per sqft for my 2 bedroom was like $1300 or so. Pretty good in my opinion...that's considering you get 60 sqf of outdoor space as well as a 30sqft storage room.

I think visually the finishes might not be the absolute best...but I have to say, from seeing many many new developments...they actually made the place functional! Too many of these new buildings have great looking finishes but you have no storage or anything. Stratus really out did themselves with the kitchen cabinets and everything...look at the kitchen model if you haven't (it's a model of my line!).

Maybe the appliances aren't wolf and subzero (even though smaller apartments have the subzeros), I think they are decent though.

If you decorate correctly, the place will look great...it's a great canvas and start. I already have plans for a couple built in units as well as custom closets, etc. Should turn out nicely.

Anyone have any idea how much motorized shades cost? That would be nice...these new buildings with floor to cieling windows make it hard for light control!

[CSGuy]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I've been following this thread for some time now and I'm also committed to a 2-bed apt in CS.
I stopped by an open house in the Charleston recently to check out the finishes there. They look fine, just like the Stratus model apartment, except the kitchen countertop is different. I actually like the soapstone countertop in the Stratus better. The cabinets, GE Monogram fridge and F&P appliances all look decent.
In this past sunday's NY Times real estate - sales around the region section, I saw a Chelsea Stratus listing sold by Corcoran for 1.725M but listed for 1.75M. What's the deal with that? Why would the sponsor's agent (Elliman) let Corcoran release this info 6 months prior to closing?

[jonah]

I trundled into the model condo at The Charleston, and found that the finishes were slick - (fairly much as i had perused in the original showroom )- i sense that this is not a bad proxy for how the Stratus, will end up.

Even more, the model apt. was on the 4th floor SW corner was a quiet as a museum - which i guess speaks to the insulation quality provided by the L'Cor.

So I guess those folk who poured their $ away on 4th Floor and above at the Stratus can be reasonably reassured.

[lupus1]

i dont understand how they can have 20 units left if there are 200 in the building. they might have 20 available but i think the inventory is larger than that. could someone confirm.

strange how corcoran could sell the property in ny times, 50k below asking. pretty pissed if they did do this.

[CSGuy]

i dont understand how they can have 20 units left if there are 200 in the building. they might have 20 available but i think the inventory is larger than that. could someone confirm.


There are a total of 204 apartments in the building, with 1 apartment reserved for the live-in super. Currently there are 136 listings with 111 in-contract and 25 active. They've been periodically releasing new units to keep the availability around 20 to 25. According to streeteasy, there were 16 previous listings. It's not clear what happened to these apartments. I would say there are about 50 to 65 apartments in the inventory yet to be released. But considering the building's size and the current market conditions, it's selling very well. It's definitely more than 50% sold, if not the 70% that LCOR claimed to have sold back in September. I'm also pleased with