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Quendi
March 6th, 2006, 08:49 PM
My brother and I are planning on moving to Harlem for his new job at a school there, but we are being told non-stop of how dangerous of an area Harlem is. I was wondering if Harlem really is as dangerous as people say, or if some parts are dangerous while others just as safe as anywhere else.
Thanks for all the help.

lofter1
March 6th, 2006, 11:04 PM
Not to worry, most likely you'll both be just fine there -- and just about anywhere in NYC.

28th Police Precinct (Central Harlem) Profile: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/pct028.html

Crime Stats for 28th Police Precinct (Feb. 2006): http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pdf/chfdept/cs028pct.pdf

Here's Census info for Central Harlem (2000): http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/mn10profile.pdf

Manhattan Precinct Map:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pix/pct/pbmnmap.gif

ablarc
March 7th, 2006, 07:01 AM
Those police statistics show crime heading back upward. Wish that could be reversed.

krulltime
March 7th, 2006, 10:39 AM
Aslong as you don't find a place so close to those housing projects in Harlem then you will be better off as crime is concern. Crime tends to happen around these housing projects for the most part... especilly at night time. But still crime is relative low and aslong as you dont get involve in gangs/drungs or spouse/partner/relatives violence then you will be more safe.

MrSpice
March 7th, 2006, 12:13 PM
I would not want to live in Harlem, especially in the areas where there are many housing projects. Not the safest place to walk around late at night.

milleniumcab
March 30th, 2006, 09:32 PM
The Harlem is much safer than 25 years ago and a bit more unsafe than 5 years ago. It all depends on which time period you are comparing to. It would also depend on the adress you are going to live at. Some areas of Harlem is safer than others. You will be paying much less rent, that's for sure..

ablarc
April 2nd, 2006, 12:57 PM
The Harlem is much safer than 25 years ago and a bit more unsafe than 5 years ago.
OK Mike, what you fixin' to do about this?

czsz
April 2nd, 2006, 02:40 PM
The city just hired 800 more officers...on any given night, a great deal of the police force seems to be randomly deployed about Harlem.

Anyway I've never felt unsafe there (on 125th) at night- very alone, but never unsafe, especially since there seems to be a 1:2 police:pedestrian ratio at certain hours. The low 100s along Columbus and Amsterdam are a different story.

ablarc
April 4th, 2006, 09:15 PM
The city just hired 800 more officers...on any given night, a great deal of the police force seems to be randomly deployed about Harlem.

Anyway I've never felt unsafe there (on 125th) at night- very alone, but never unsafe, especially since there seems to be a 1:2 police:pedestrian ratio at certain hours. The low 100s along Columbus and Amsterdam are a different story.
Alas, for all that, not enough to prevent this tragic event that befell TLOZ:
http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=91045#post91045

He must have heard it was safe.

czsz
April 4th, 2006, 09:21 PM
I'm really wondering what happened there. It's not at all typical for gangs of youths to be chasing after someone to beat them on busy 125th St. at 8:30 PM. I doubt it was a random incident.

ablarc
April 4th, 2006, 09:33 PM
All such incidents are exceptions. Exceptions happen more often in some places than others.

You could probably go there every Saturday night for a year and not get chased. And you'd be unwise.

Has it occurred to you that TLOZ might have been there partly on this board's plentiful assurances that the area is safe? Only places I ever heard declared unsafe hereabouts have been Bushwick and Bay Ridge.

And yet the assurances will continue. When observed facts surface to counter cherished theories, it's always the theories that survive. The observations? They're just exceptions; we all know Harlem's safe.

Could have happened anywhere, I know...

ablarc
April 4th, 2006, 09:40 PM
I doubt it was a random incident.
Do you think TLOZ was looking for trouble? Drugs? A fight?

Maybe he made eye contact. That's provocative.

What could be more random? Come on Cz; you knew TLOZ as we all did. A gentle guy.

Maybe that was his downfall; he should have swung his shoulders when he walked. Or maybe he shouldn't have. Should have done something different, that's for sure, to please the folks that chased him. Next we'll be making excuses for them.

Good kids, they were just trying to scare him a little. A harmless prank; they didn't know he'd run into traffic.

Right?

czsz
April 4th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Whoa, wait, I'm not blaming him, merely trying to make some sense of what happened. Thinking out loud.

We are, anyway, relying on the account of a random homeless street vendor, from what I can tell, who made an inference about why he was being chased, and he was, after all, not ever actually beaten by them, but injured by the car.

I'm not ruling out that a bunch of assholes just decided to beat on a weak-looking guy. Just that I don't think it was likely. Nor do I think it was likely Hehman was involved in some drug deal gone bad or extortionary scheme. It could have been a misinterpreted statement, a restaurant bill he forgot to pay (I've had numerous people run after me in various cities for that...), or even, as you said, a sideways glance. The best we can do in the absence of more information is roughly assess probabilities.

But to jump to conclusions about a neighborhood regarding an (admittedly very personal) incident coupled with a residually negative reputation? I mean, St. Guillen was abducted, raped, murdered, and thrown in a ditch after leaving a bar on the Bowery, but it's not been used to tarnish the Lower East Side's reputation. One alleged maybe-beating resulting in a collision with a car and Harlem is unmasked for the dangerous ghetto it really is and always has been?

Schadenfrau
April 5th, 2006, 12:06 AM
Come on, now is really not the time.

NoyokA
April 5th, 2006, 12:48 AM
Whoa, wait, I'm not blaming him, merely trying to make some sense of what happened. Thinking out loud.

We are, anyway, relying on the account of a random homeless street vendor, from what I can tell, who made an inference about why he was being chased, and he was, after all, not ever actually beaten by them, but injured by the car.

I'm not ruling out that a bunch of assholes just decided to beat on a weak-looking guy. Just that I don't think it was likely. Nor do I think it was likely Hehman was involved in some drug deal gone bad or extortionary scheme. It could have been a misinterpreted statement, a restaurant bill he forgot to pay (I've had numerous people run after me in various cities for that...), or even, as you said, a sideways glance. The best we can do in the absence of more information is roughly assess probabilities.

But to jump to conclusions about a neighborhood regarding an (admittedly very personal) incident coupled with a residually negative reputation? I mean, St. Guillen was abducted, raped, murdered, and thrown in a ditch after leaving a bar on the Bowery, but it's not been used to tarnish the Lower East Side's reputation. One alleged maybe-beating resulting in a collision with a car and Harlem is unmasked for the dangerous ghetto it really is and always has been?


I feel weird talking about this, since TLOZ is no longer with us. I still find it really hard to believe. As far as TLOZ being up there to buy drugs, that's a ludicrous assumption. If you're looking to buy drugs and you live in the village, you need look no further than Washington Square. Of all my user friends, I know noone that goes to Harlem to buy drugs. Its just something you dont do . For some odd reason TLOZ's death doesn't scary me, Im not sure how I feel. I just wish I would've talked to him recently, I always feel that way when someone dies. Lesson is, always keep close to friends and family.

TLOZ's story doesn't scare me, even though I go into Harlem four times a week. When I walk through the neighoborhood I see the familiar sights of burned out buildings and empty lots with abandoned cars and chickens running through the lots, when I walk through the neighborhood I am the only white person. Its not the most comfortable situation in the world, but I walk with confidence and I'm fine. I cut through St. Nicholas Park four times a week, all I hear is that St. Nicholas Park has a very high crime rate. I just conduct my buisness and I have no troubles. One time some punk kids threw a snow ball at me, but that was the only confrontation I ever had. I wanted to go up to the reverse racists and beat the shit out of them, but that would have gotten me no where. Its all about being smart. And being smart means I will not walk through St. Nicholas Park at night. Im an adrenaline junkie, but I will not tempt fate. If Im do it for the adrenaline, I know I will get in trouble, because in some instances the slightest misstep will result in trouble.

Thats not to deride the entire neighborhood. I walk on 125th and 135th east to west and I often go to Riverbend Park. I thoroughly enjoy these neighborhoods. 135th is a beautiful residential street, the brownstones are owned and lived in by upper middle class, black business professionals. 125th is a major commercial thoroughfare. Outside of 125th you will be the only white, non Hispanic or black face. All of Harlem is trekable during the day. However all of Harlem, especially East Harlem can be dangerous at night.

If you're asking the question, should I live in Harlem, you should not. I could live in Harlem because I know the city like the back of my hand, and I walk through the city with confidence. I have a friend who is new to the city and doesn’t exude confidence, he told me of his story about going to Harlem during the day. He was lost and a lot of people picked up on it, they offered to help him, but each person also asked him for money. Many genuine people live in Harlem, but for all the poor people that helped him, at night a different type of deprived person would’ve picked on my friend and held him up. In a hold up for all the criminals that take money and leave the person alone, there are as many people who hold up their victims and virtually beat them up. Each time it’s a person who I judged as not having much confidence. Confidence isn’t a magic shroud, but it’s necessary. Visit Harlem for yourself, if you think you wont be able to have confidence in the neighborhood, look elsewhere…

ryan
April 5th, 2006, 01:16 AM
Come on, now is really not the time.

Really czsz, don't be an asshole.

ryan
April 5th, 2006, 01:31 AM
Not really sure the context, but I found this in a google cache (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:0OMs4lHdfyYJ:smarttravelasia.com//letters.htm+%22Broderick+Hehman%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a) dated 8/16/05.

Big Apple is no crime capital
I recently read Vijay Verghese's February 2003 Check-in comment "Advice on Travel Advisories (http://smarttravelasia.com//archive/0302/check-in.htm)". As a New Yorker, I was greatly enlightened about the horrifically violent state of my city, as well as London and Paris. I was particularly intrigued by the statistics cited about the Big Apple, particularly those regarding homicides.

Your article erroneously states that New York's homicide rate was 13.5 "in its heyday." If we are talking about the 1940s and 1950s, when the city's prosperity and optimism knew no bounds, then that figure is wrong. For a city of its size (eight million then, eight million now), the average murder count 1940s-1950s of 250 to 300 is a relatively tame 3.12 to 3.75. That may be oh so frightening for a resident of Hongkong, with a tame one murder per 100,000 people, but no one is perfect.

I've spent time in Harlem and I've never been mugged, shot, raped, or had my car stolen. [This reputation] is so Eighties

In another section of the article, Verghese wrote that New York experienced 2,000 homicides a year up until the mid-1990s. This is only partially true, as the only two years in the city's history where the murder count exceeded 2,000 were 1990 and 1991. That number has since declined to fewer than six hundred - 587 in 2002 - Year of the Hearse indeed! And the figure is dropping. Your statistics for the year 2000, which included 952 murders, are off by about four years; that was the murder count for 1996.

No, pretty much every single business traveller survives the trip to the airport, where the biggest problem is the traffic on the Van Wyck Expressway. Yes, I've spent plenty of time in Harlem and have never been mugged, shot, raped, or had my car stolen; its reputation as a crime-ridden place is SO 1980s. No, I don't barricade myself in my house every day, as you have advised. New York City is no Medellin-on-the-Hudson.

As for London and Paris: London does not have a homicide every day, more like 170 a year - fairly tame for a Hongkong-sized city. The Paris figure, however, is accurate, because that city is struggling with a huge rise in violent crime due to unemployment and racial tension. I also take offense at your statement that the United States's murder rate is three times the international average. Where is the source?

Colombia, Brazil, South Africa, the Philippines, Thailand, Venezuela, Peru, Jamaica and Haiti, among others, all have much higher murder rates. If you must recommend a travel advisory for an American city, however, apply it to one that actually HAS a contemporary reputation for violence: Detroit, New Orleans, Washington DC and Chicago would all be valid examples.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a jazz performance in Harlem to attend. I'll let you know if I see a Balinese kecak dance up on 125th Street.

Broderick Hehman, New York

czsz
April 5th, 2006, 02:18 AM
Really czsz, don't be an asshole.

I'm just wondering what happened, and objecting to people who would like to use this incident to prove that Harlem is unsafe (which is truly tasteless given the context). Christ. I didn't accuse him of any drug deals (exactly the opposite!) I don't appreciate my concern being mistranslated as tilted accusations. This is someone who was one degree of separation removed from me. If it seems like I'm too involved in the details, it's because I'm close to people who deeply care. If it seems like I insulted him, it's because you misread what I wrote.

NY_Yankees_1979
April 5th, 2006, 05:52 AM
My brother and I are planning on moving to Harlem for his new job at a school there, but we are being told non-stop of how dangerous of an area Harlem is. I was wondering if Harlem really is as dangerous as people say, or if some parts are dangerous while others just as safe as anywhere else.
Thanks for all the help. Harlem has got a lot better in recent years; the areas around the Housing Projects (i.e. - where the Polo Grounds use to be) are not the greatest at all. Spanish Harlem I think is safer than Harlem (that's east of 5th Avenue). I wouldn't suggest wondering around Harlem late at night as like Central Park it's not the greatest area of town at night. Hope this helped.

ablarc
April 5th, 2006, 07:34 AM
May he rest in peace, Hehman is now dead. His article must be seen in that context as tragic irony.

Will his death be logged statistically as a murder or an accident?




Either way, this is not a convincing time to proclaim Harlem's safety.

agnès
April 28th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Hi Lofter1 ! thanks for the links . But where did U get the map of Manhattan's precincts ? I'd be thankful since I'm working on the subject at the moment.
All the best.:)

lofter1
April 28th, 2006, 11:15 PM
I did a search at nyc.gov and found these (various precinct info): LINK (http://www.nyc.gov/portal/index.jsp?epi_menuItemID=370b65f44dee75f6a62fa2460 1c789a0&epi_menuID=a4aaa6d5d9e894f6a62fa24601c789a0&epi_baseMenuID=27579af732d48f86a62fa24601c789a0)

Here's the NYPD homepage: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/home.html

And this is the link to the Map: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/pix/pct/pbmnmap.gif