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I love New York City, and want to see this subway get done, but c'mon, $17 billion? Does anyone have any concept of what $17 billion dollars is? Is it really worth it to make life convenient for the people that live on the east side? How many people is that--a million? That's $17,000 of convenience per person! Just buy every one of them a Segway and we'll save a lot of money.
Opponents of Houston's new light-rail service said the money spent to build it could have bought all potential users a Lexus :P
The idea of mass transit is to reduce traffic, not add to it by buying everyone their own motorized vehicle.
Some people have no sense of perspective. Yes, you could buy everyone a Segway or a Lexus, as the case may be (regardless of traffic consequences), but how long would they last? 5-10 years tops, then you'll need to replace them. Not to mention the opportunity cost of letting high-density development --the most lucrative kind when it comes to tax revenue per infrastructure dollar-- continue to go to other municipalities. But I'll admit it's different on 2nd avenue because the high-density development is already there. I guess it'll allow even more.
It does boggle the mind, though, how expensive it is to build anything in Manhattan. It just doesn't seem right. Is it the unions? Red-tape? Plain-old corruption?
The unions most definitely play a large role in why things cost so much in the city. Insurance, attorneys and other cover-your-a__ costs make up another large chunk of these incredible prices.
Digging underground in older Cities is VERY EXPENSIVE.
Just look at Boston's Central Artery (Big Dig) project, $14 Billion.
If high costs were the dealbreaker for anything happening in Manhattan (or other large cities), everyone would live in the sticks. The subway hasn't expanded in years while the population has grown - its just natural that the subway needs to expand.
Parallel this with the 3rd water tunnel coming into the city. Its long-range planning that keeps things moving here.
Yeah, but isn't the scope of the Big Dig many times greater than the 2nd ave. subway? It's a six-lane highway underground, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by STT757
True the Big Dig project is much more complicated and had more features than the SAS, but it was also started 10+ years ago. The Second ave subway is yet to get a shovel in the ground yet, each year the project's costs go up.Quote:
Yeah, but isn't the scope of the Big Dig many times greater than the 2nd ave. subway? It's a six-lane highway underground, correct?
"The project spans 7.8 miles of highway" - http://www.bigdig.com/thtml/summary.htm
How long is the subway?
"8.5 miles of new track along the length of Manhattan's East Side, from 125th Street to Hanover Square."
from
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/plannin..._alignment.htm
$17 Billion for NYC / $87 Billion for Iraq - I'll take our $17 Billion thank you.
The cost of not building it will exceed $17B in the same period.
The big dig is/was WAY more complicated than the SAS, first of all the Second ave Subway does not go under water. And second it's virtually a straight line for most of the line under Second Ave, with some segments already completed.
The Big dig includes the Ted Williams Tunnel to Logan Airport, and then a bridge to Charlestown.
http://www.bigdig.com/thtml/images/mainmap.gif
The SAS is costing more because they are taking their sweet time deciding whether to build it or not, they need to start constuction by next year or it's costs are really get to the point where the Feds will say no to providing any funding.
That's not entirely true that the subway station hasn't been expanded in years. The most recent expansions was in 1988, when the E, J and Z (I think) were extended to Archer Avenue; and 1989, when the 63rd Street extension was finished. Of course, there was also the reopening of the Franklin Avenue subway in 1999, as well as the addition of the AirTrain.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyo
BTW, I've said this before, but the SAS is going to be classified as the T Train if and when it is finished.
The 63rd extension did not fully open up until 2001 when the F train was re-routed thru Queens to Roosevelt Island and then on to mid-town. That was the same time that the V train was introduced.
I know this had been said before, and because of cost it would be ludicrous at this juncture, but lets big dig the FDR !!!!! :)