i don't think that there could be funding for the decking w/o plans for the development wrapped in b/c you'd need both in order to get the political support needed to drive the funding for the decking. see, e.g., failed/stalled sunnyside yards efforts.
BPC - manhattan, immediate area with not so distant history of strong financial health, immediate surrounding area one of the most wealthiest commercial centers in the entire world.
It's a sad state of affairs to see this development languishing. My only worry is that it could have been further along without all the legal hurdles/lawsuit-related delays.
Interesting discussion here. I agree that arena-based developments rarely work as well as they're touted. But I really liked the plan here because of how it seemed Gehry figured out how to make an urban arena work. In other words, I wanted to see this built pretty much as advertised.
If this ends up in an arena and one or two buildings constructed within 10 years, I will be disappointed. It's been a while since I read about the financing deals with the city (and some of the posts have me confused about it) but Ratner should not get a free arena here. Period. He needs to live up to the plan and develop the entire yards, or see to it that others do if he can't.
There should be a new way of setting up these contracts that splits the risks and rewards equally between city and developer. I generally don't like to see the city get involved in development, but if it's providing financing, it deserves a chance to profit if the developer does well. Otherwise, it's a risk for the city too, and if things fall apart, it's the city's fault for getting involved.
It was the late 1970s...Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynLove
City lost 10% of its population during the decade.
It hovered near bankruptcy.
The crime rate and the sense that the city was out of control and ungovernable were at a peak for the century.
Hardy anyone lived in the financial district, and there was little desire to do so.
The biggest growth in population in the area was IPN - and it was Mitchell Lama.
BPC was not conceived as an upscale neighborhood. Its first and still biggest development was Gateway Plaza - also Mitchell Lama.
It was financed with a $200 million bond issue.
The differences you bring up between Manhattan and Brooklyn (specifically the two railyards) don't include the cost of the real estate. The two yards are roughly equal in size. The MTA sold the rights to HY for $1 billion; Ratner paid $100 million for the rights to AY.
-------------------------
As far as support for AY, that would not be too difficult. Ratner is poison, and now vulnerable. Any initiative that remove him from the picture would get political cover.
not really. area of BPC used to be a major center for commerce, and financial district was the undisputed center of big money biz in nyc. wtc injected fresh money into the scene. i never said anything about resi in that area. initial deal bpc proposals came from private sources - in fact, the city stepped in and took over the plans. total opposite from AY and HY. fiscal crisis didn't hit until development was well under way - 5-10 years in by the time work slogged. initial development was affordable (gateway plaza) but that's it.
ratner is poison to anti-AY crowd, and those who are impatient re his beekman tower school. that's about it. many more people support him and his work in bk. unfortunately it's only his haters that make the effort to scream and rant. definitely not vulnearble either - in fact stronger relatively b/c he avoids leverage (unlike macklowe, mcsam, etc). and he's doing just fine - financing landed for beekman tower, almost complete for dekalb tower, plugging away on AY.
Don't want to get into a BPC debate with you, but you have this all wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynLove
Doesn't matter if you meant residential or not. The point was how BPC was developed, and you said:Quote:
i never said anything about resi in that area.
We were talking about AY in comparison, remember?Quote:
battery park city? totally different scenario.
Not relevant. It was early 60s, and it never got off the ground. The landfill and staged infrastructure were financed with bonds.Quote:
initial deal bpc proposals came from private sources
Backwards. The city transferred the land to the state (BPCA) in 1979.Quote:
in fact, the city stepped in and took over the plans.
Were you in NYC in the early 70s? Landfill complete 1976, building construction began 1980.Quote:
fiscal crisis didn't hit until development was well under way - 5-10 years in by the time work slogged.
Incorrect, and also distorted. I think there are about 2800 residents in GP, and for at least a decade, the majority of the total. Even today, it's 25%. And again, the point is that it was the first development in the neighborhood - an indication that it was not planned as "Manhattan luxe."Quote:
initial development was affordable (gateway plaza) but that's it.
----------------------------------
They're the one's making the noise, and we were talking about politics.Quote:
ratner is poison to anti-AY crowd, and those who are impatient re his beekman tower school.
Who needs leverage when you can ask Albany for a billion or two.Quote:
he avoids leverage (unlike macklowe, mcsam, etc).
Throughout this debate, you've dismissed the concept of breaking the site up into several developers, stating that a full plan is needed up front.
So what full plan do we have? An arena, a few buildings, and an evaluation [your word]. What if that evaluation determines that he needs more money (not to be confused with the more-money he says he needs now), and won't complete the project without it?
He can sit on his no-rent cash-cow arena, and wait out the state. We'll have a combo of Dolan and Joe Sitt on our hands.
The next time we groan at more bad news for Fulton transit, take note that AY rights were sold to Ratner for $114 million below the accessed value. Even Extell outbid him by 50%. The least he can do is stick his neck out a little, and put his name on a piece of paper guaranteeing the entire project.
very relevant - all goes to value proposition comparison and dynamic between bpc and ay. private interest launched the whole initiative, the state snatched control in the 60s and had enough political leverage at that point to steer the boat (i.e., raise funding via bonds in early 70s) due to the precedent of actual (not theoretical) private interest. 79 transfer to bpca was a result of the fiscal crisis killing all progress on the project for a couple years, the majority of infrastructural work (landfill etc) took place under control of the state in the 5+ years leading up to the standstill. never said this was planned manhattan luxe from day 1, but eventual access to top dollar space development (resi, retail, commercial) was a value driver for private interests from day 1 - as was born out once the state gave over control of the project - GP affordable component is only a slice of the initial planned affordable component. best the city can do (try to do) now is divert bpca funds to affordable housing elsewhere in the city.
i'm not addressing your alternative proposals for AY b/c - in my opinion - they're unrealistic. re extell bid, not nearly enough info to pass judgment.
You were trying to show a difference in attractiveness for development of BPC in the 70s and AY today. Do I have to repeat the earlier post on relative economic conditions?Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynLove
There's better demand today for AY space.Quote:
but eventual access to top dollar space development (resi, retail, commercial) was a value driver for private interests
I think that should be my argument, not yours. I rented and sublet an apartment in BPC when it first opened, staying at my house in Brooklyn until things sorted out. When I bought an apartment years later, condo and rental rates were still lower than in comparable neighborhoods in Manhattan. It's obvious that you weren't around at the time to know the conditions, and are offering conjecture as to the initial demand to build out the site.Quote:
GP affordable component is only a slice of the initial planned affordable component.
My actual question was: What full plan do we have? That was your requirement.Quote:
i'm not addressing your alternative proposals for AY b/c - in my opinion - they're unrealistic.
not conjecture.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
http://origin.observermediagroup.com...atlantic-yards
"Mr. Riegelhaupt's (lengthy) statement:
The reality is the project is moving forward and we are making significant progress on the site each day. Thus far we have contracted out over $42 million worth of work on the site and roughly 50% of the structures on the site have already been taken down. We have begun construction of the temporary rail yard and we expect to break ground on the arena later this year. We expect to open the first residential tower, which will have a significant amount of affordable housing, at the same time as the opening of Barclays Center. By that time we also expect to have started construction on the second residential tower which will also have a significant amount of affordable housing. The rest of Atlantic Yards, including all of the remaining affordable housing, will be built out from there."
Newark hoop dreams
Posted by Star-Ledger editorial board April 21, 2008 10:30PM
An arena was supposed to be growing in Brooklyn to provide a new home for the Nets in 2010, when the basketball team leaves the Izod Center in the Meadowlands.
For those looking at Brooklyn from New Jersey, the wish that something -- anything -- might happen to keep the Nets in New Jersey has been a hope that would not die.
Some things have happened. The real estate and credit markets have changed since the $4 billion Brooklyn Atlantic Yards development, with thousands of condos, other homes and an 18,000-seat arena, was proposed. Financing is no longer easy. The payoff is no longer certain. The Nets are losing $40 million a year.
When developer Bruce Ratner bought the team in 2004, the arena's estimated cost was $600 million. That has grown to $950 million, which would make it the most expensive arena ever. Delays caused by local opposition and financing problems could make it more expensive than that.
Those who dream in New Jersey know the rumors that developer Ratner bought the Nets only to sweeten the appeal of the development project. The reverie is that if Brooklyn falls through, a coalition of New Jersey buyers (led by the New Jersey Devils hockey team, perhaps?) would take the Nets off Ratner's hands. Then the Nets would move into the shiny new Prudential Center, which the Devils built with the city of Newark. Whether the financing of the Newark arena made sense (the city put up the lion's share), it's built and it draws tons of fans via mass transit. The arena here was originally planned as a home for the Nets, and that's where the team belongs.
What stands in the way of the dream? Well, there's Ratner. "Newark is not even a consideration. We're moving to Brooklyn," said a spokesman for the builder and the team. They are planning to break ground this year. They say.
Apart from whatever Ratner may be dreaming, there is the stumbling block of a clause in the Nets' contract with the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, which owns the Izod Center. If the Nets leave to play anywhere other than Brooklyn, the team must pay the authority a penalty that starts out at $12 million a year.
That clause was generally considered to be anti-Newark. Considering that the authority is a state agency, the provision seemed as hideous and out of place as a giant, psychedelic Ferris wheel in a swamp.
Something has happened. The hateful clause is being explained as a nonhostile means of preventing the Nets from pitting the Meadowlands against Newark. It was meant to avoid a bidding war for a short-term contract while the Brooklyn arena was built.
In fact, sources have told The Star-Ledger editorial board that if the Nets sign a long-term deal to play in Newark, the sports authority would waive that clause and happily cooperate with the Prudential Center for the greater glory and profit of both New Jersey venues.
If the authority is beginning to see the light, who knows what else might happen? Clap your hands and say, "I believe," sports fans. Might as well keep dreaming.
Its not like they are moving a million miles away, wouldnt Brooklyn be closer to you than Newark anyway? At least as the crow flies.
Not really because I live on the Westside of Jersey City, the side of the city closer to Newark.
Its a 15 min bus ride to JSQ and then only two stops from JSQ to the Prudential Center; compared to taking the lightrail 5 blocks from my house at Westside, go 7 stops on the lightrail, get off at Exchange Pl. to get on the PATH train, take it 1 stop to WTC, transfer to the 2/3 train to take it 6 stops to the yet to be if ever built Barclays Center.
I really hope Vanderbeek (owner of the New Jersey Devils) can pursuade Ratner to sell the team to him and some other New Jersey businessmen to move them to the Prudential Center, which has an NBA ready lockeroom.
^you're torturing yourself JC. time to move past the denial phase and onto the acceptance and adjustment phase. you know there is a silver lining - maybe jay-z will get your boys lebron.
There is hope BK Love, never count New Jersey out, people should have learned that by now-
From The Real Deal:
Investors urge Ratner to ditch Brooklyn for Newark arena
http://s3.amazonaws.com:/trd_three/i...articlebox.jpg
The Prudential Center
By David Jones
Developer Bruce Ratner has been approached by several New Jersey investors and public officials on a plan to relocate the Nets to the Prudential Center in downtown Newark, according to sources familiar with the talks.
The investors would like Ratner to have the Nets partner with the New Jersey Devils and move into the Prudential Center in Newark, where the hockey team has just finished its first full season.
"They're being wooed politically as well as by the private sector," said Ken Baris, a West Orange, New Jersey-based realtor, who is familiar with some of the investors who have approached Ratner. "There's a lot of people that kind of want to keep it quiet, but [at the same time] are looking forward to a lot more leaks."
A move to Newark would effectively end Ratner's efforts to move the Nets to a proposed $950 million Barclays Center in downtown Brooklyn, which was to serve as the centerpiece of his controversial $4 billion Atlantic Yards complex and would be the most expensive basketball arena in the country. Nets officials denied there have been any plans to move to Newark and have insisted they are moving forward with the Brooklyn arena.
"The Nets are moving to Brooklyn, period," said Barry Baum, a spokesman for Forest City Ratner who handles the Nets.
Still, sources say the discussions have life.
Since the October opening of the Prudential Center, Newark officials have urged New Jersey Governor, Jon Corzine, to shut down the Izod Center in East Rutherford, where the Nets have played since 1981.
After failing to make the playoffs and trading its star player, Jason Kidd, the Nets are expected to lose more than $40 million for the 2007-2008 season. They currently plan to stay at the Izod Center for at least another two seasons.
"If they don't get that arena built in Brooklyn in the next couple of years, I'm doubtful that Ratner would want to keep paying for losses for the Nets," said Michael Cramer, professor of sports management at New York University. "It would have been good to get the Nets and Devils in the same arena."
Baum said, however, that the Nets are set to announce new corporate partners in May for luxury suites at the proposed Barclays arena, and are working to sell season tickets and corporate sponsors at the Izod Center for the remaining two years at that site.
New Jersey Devils owner Jeff Van der Beek declined to comment on the Nets. But, he said, the arena is doing much better than "our wildest expectations." He said the Devils were averaging about 16,000 fans a game and that the arena would average about 175 event nights in its first year. He said he hoped that the number of events would climb to 225 per year in the future.
Essex County Executive Joseph DiVincenzo wants the Nets to join the Devils in Newark, and has publicly questioned claims by the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority that the arena can turn a profit with no hockey team and limited public transportation.
"We would welcome the Nets with open arms," DiVincenzo told The Real Deal. "If anything could be negotiated I think it would be great." A provision in the Nets lease with the NJSEA calls for a $12 million penalty if the Nets move to another arena outside of Brooklyn or Queens, however the Star Ledger reported earlier this week that officials might be willing to waive the penalty.
Ratner told the New York Times in March that he would not be able to finance the full 16 building Atlantic Yards project for several years due to a weak financing environment and the inability to find an anchor tenant for the Miss Brooklyn office tower. However, he said, that he would move ahead with the arena by the end of 2008.
Atlantic Yards opponents have petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court to hear their case and officials from Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn said they expect the court make a decision on whether to hear it by June.
http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/i...r-newark-arena
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCMAN320
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraperfannyc
rediculous. ratner's interest in nj at this point (if any) would be as leverage to sweeten his bk deal. i realize that the devils are out now, but there still must be something else more worthy of nj's sports scene's attention. this ship has sailed.
This is still a New Jersey team that we will fight to keep here. The only thing here to keep Jersey fans sports interest is the NFL Draft, and the Yanks and Mets, and several minor league baseball teams in New Jersey. Don't try and take the light off this, there is a spotlight on Ratner now and the Nets and NJ officials smell blood in the water. They want the Nets at the Prudential Center with the Devils, where they were originally going to go and belong!!
Im all for you guys keeping the Nets, anything to stop this joke of a project from happening. Im one o fthe most pro development guys on here but this project is a rip-off to the community that lives in the area, a waste of tax pay money and a overall joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCMAN320
you guys should build a nascar track in jersey.
*Cringes*, thanks but no thanks, I'd like to keep the rednecks in S. Jersey in the Pinebarrens. ;)
^ Elitist?
nascar aint just for rednecks anymore. would be big money for your state. SI's short-sitedness could be NJ's blessing.
I agree, a NASCAR track that can also host Indy Racing League, CART and possibly a US Formula One race would be great. I would prefer to have it near Atlantic City, not because of the similar cultural aspects of South Jersey to Southern US States where NASCAR is wildly popular. Rather I would want it near Atlantic City to take advantage of the tons of rooms al ready available, where if they built it up North they would need to build lots of new hotels.
That being said plans that have been kicking around for a while now involve a NASCAR track built around the Meadowlands horse track.
the AC angle has some merit, but i think there is more interest from proponents closer to NYC. there is a huge geographical void along the NE corridor. move inland or south and you run up against dover and poconos tracks. def agree with multi-cicuit track - maybe something like watkins glen.
remember when lower manhattan almost got a formula 1 stop back in the early 90s? that woulda been off the hizzy.
Lol I was kidding. I'm not being elitest, NASCAR just isn't for me. I do like F1 and have gone to Indy to see it the last 4 years with my father for fathers day. AC could use it, but the Meadowlands would be excellent.
I would still like to send the Dolans, er Knicks, to Newark. :D
Actually I am with kliq6 on this one, building the arena alone without funding all of the other development is a joke. JCMan, you can keep the Nets, we don't need Ratner. We have enough extortionist developers as it is.
I've put up with Gehry's lame attempts at an urban site plan, and Ratner's bait and switch tactics while asking for for more public money. I even grudgingly accepted the Eminent Domain utilized to take private property, on the assumption that the entire railyard would be built out - a public good.
The original arena plan was presented as good urban design, being encased within buildings. But what we are left with is a stand-alone arena.
The only reason I can see to like this plan is to get the Nets to Brooklyn, but at $900 million, they can stay in New Jersey.
NJ group explores bringing Nets to Newark
by Ian T. Shearn/The Star-Ledger Thursday May 01, 2008, 12:05 AM
The owner of the Devils hockey team and Newark Mayor Cory Booker are seeking to assemble a group of investors to buy the Nets and move the basketball team to Newark, according to people familiar with the effort.
In recent weeks, Devils owner Jeffrey Vanderbeek has met with Nets owner Bruce Ratner, while Booker has spoken to an official at Ratner's development company, Forest City Ratner Cos., according to three sources with direct knowledge of the discussions. The outcome of each talk was characterized as "open-ended." The parties spoke on the condition they not be identified.
The effort to bring the Nets to Newark, where they would play in the Prudential Center along with the Devils, comes amid growing speculation on whether Ratner can complete a $4 billion retail and residential development in Brooklyn, given the deepening crisis in the credit markets. To date, there is no indication the Nets are for sale, and Ratner repeatedly has said he is happy owning the team and looks forward to moving to a new arena in Brooklyn.
"The team is absolutely not for sale," Ratner said through his spokesman, Howard Rubenstein. "We're inches away from completing the deal in Brooklyn."
At the same time, one of the sources said Vanderbeek has been approached over the past two years by a half-dozen people who have expressed interest in investing in a Nets purchase. It was unclear whom Vanderbeek and Booker have spoken to about a potential purchase. But two of the sources said Booker also has tried to entice Ratner by offering him development possibilities in Newark.
Asked this week about his interest in the Nets, Vanderbeek would say only: "The Nets have stated they are going Brooklyn. We wish them all the luck in the world."
Booker's office declined comment.
Officials who follow sports and development in the region said Ratner still faces challenges in moving the Nets to Brooklyn from their current home in the Meadowlands.
"This is like a death watch," Senate President Richard Codey said of the delays in the project. "Not a single piling has gone in the ground."
Carl Goldberg, chairman of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, said he believes the Nets could remain where they are.
"The likelihood of the Nets actually building a new facility in Brooklyn and leaving our facility at the Izod Center is diminishing by the moment," Goldberg told a group of Star-Ledger editors in February. "The cost of steel and concrete and the challenges of building a facility of that nature over the railyards are becoming more difficult."
The Nets were supposed to move from the Izod Center in East Rutherford to the new Barclays Center for the 2008 season, but that date recently was pushed back to 2010.
That delay is the latest setback for the project, one of many large-scale private/public efforts being delayed or scaled back across the nation. Finance experts say the sub-prime mortgage crisis that has paralyzed financial institutions is making banks close their lending windows for projects of this magnitude.
Even Ratner's executives have conceded the uncertainty of obtaining money for a $950 million arena, as reflected in a January court filing by Andrew Silberfein, Forest City's director of finance:
"The credit markets are in turmoil at this time. Many lenders and bond insurers are facing financial difficulties, and are becoming much more cautious. ... There is a serious question as to whether, given the current state of the debt market, the underwriters will be able to proceed with the financing for the arena."
Wednesday, Ratner, through Rubentein, said the affidavit is no longer accurate. "We are very confident we will get the funds necessary for the arena. During the past year, we closed on two of the largest construction deals in our company's history, totaling more than $1.3 billion, and we expect to do the same here."
Lawrence Swift, a partner at Troutman Sanders, a Manhattan law firm that specializes in sports facility financing and other large transactions, said major investment banks have hiked interest rates and fees, which dramatically raises the cost of bond deals to their sponsors.
"All of the things being sold in the market are being pulled back," Swift said. "People don't want to pay the price to market things for any long-term paper."
This week the investment banking firm Goldman Sachs, which was hired to lead the financing for the arena, reaffirmed its commitment. Michael DuVally, a spokesman, said in an e-mail Goldman Sachs is "confident we will close on the financing for the project by the third quarter."
The Nets team, which Ratner bought for $300 million in November 2005, is now worth an estimated $338 million. It is losing $40 million annually, team officials recently announced.
But Nets chief executive Brett Yormark brushed aside any financing concerns, noting Ratner just got a $680 million construction loan to build a separate 900-unit luxury rental tower in Lower Manhattan, to be designed by Frank Gehry.
"When you have a great project and you have people that want to be involved in the project, you can get financing," Yormark said.
On a recent trip to Europe, Yormark said he met with 10 potential Barclays Center "founding partners" that would get exclusive advertising rights in their category at the Brooklyn arena.
"We've got incredible interest," he said.
But George Zoffinger, former chief executive of the New Jersey Sports Authority, said a billion-dollar arena would make it impossible to turn a profit.
"When you start to spend north of $500 million for an arena, you can't generate the cash flow necessary to generate a decent return on the investment," Zoffinger said. "If the number is $900 million, it's absolutely, positively not viable from an economic standpoint."
If the Nets continued to face delays in Brooklyn, the arenas in Newark and East Rutherford could find themselves in another battle for the team. Last year, the Devils moved from the Meadowlands to Newark.
Bringing the Nets to Newark would be another a boon to the Prudential Center, said T.J. Nelligan, a sports marketing expert. Most successful arenas book at least 200 dates a year, and if the Prudential Center had a professional basketball team to go alongside the Devils, it would be halfway to meeting that goal before booking a single concert or family show, he said.
"You really need more people fighting for those dates to make it more profitable," he said. Plus, "it would help the value of your sponsorships, it would help drive traffic to the arena, it would help sell food, merchandise, everything."
Perhaps the most significant factor is that the Prudential Center would have one fewer competitor to worry about if the Brooklyn plans fell through, said Gary Bongiovanni, editor in chief of Pollstar, a concert industry magazine.
"It may well be that the biggest boon would be not so much that the Nets moved but that the competing arena went away," he said. "The Nets could move to Vermont and Prudential would be happy."
As for the Newark rumors, Yormark said: "I take it as a complete compliment that the Prudential Center would like us to call them our home. Unfortunately that's not going to happen, but I view it as a complete compliment."
Staff writers Maura McDermott, George E. Jordan and Josh Margolin contributed to this report.
screw the deck. let's make the RR cut a drag strip and bk becomes a stop on the nhra circuit.
I was pro arena as well,but without the other towers the Nets arena would look out of place.I don't know now ,this project has become a sham.
Here's an idea: Why doesn't the city lean on NYU President John Sexton, who's intent on splitting NYU between New York and Abu Dhabi, to get his sheikh pals to fund Atlantic Yards? They're only spending a mere $27 billion to buy culture for their kingdom...
I think that begins to address the problems of selling a top US academic institution to the top bidder - and diluting one of the greatest resources the US has in attracting educated immigrants.
(courtesy of ablarc: http://nymag.com/news/features/46000/index1.html)
don't be distracted by the haters. this project will happen as planned just gradually.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEAMWORKSNYC
Booker to Brooklyn: Let's settle Nets matter on basketball court
by Jeffery C. Mays/The Star-Ledger Thursday May 01, 2008, 7:25 PM
If left up to Brooklyn Borough President Marty Markowitz and Newark Mayor Cory Booker, the battle over the Nets won't be decided by the credit markets or zoning boards, but rather on the basketball court.
Booker challeged Markowitz to a one-on-one game of hoops for the Nets after the borough president released a statement today calling Newark, Brooklyn's 'western suburb" and insiting New Jersey's largest city will never steal Nets from Brooklyn.
The trash talk came in response to a story that ran in The Star-Ledger today that reported New Jersey Devils owner Jeffrey Vanderbeek and Booker are quietly trying to assemble an investment team should plans to build a new arena in Brooklyn go asunder.
Nets owner Bruce Ratner has said the team is not for sale. But that wasn't enough for Markowitz.
"After years of obscurity mired in the Meadowlands, the Nets are ready for a slam dunk in the Brooklyn big leagues. Who knows, maybe the Devils want to lace up and come here too! If my esteemed colleague Cory Booker in Brooklyn's 'western suburb,' a.k.a. Newark, New Jersey, is looking for a professional basketball team, maybe he should ask the Knicks," Markowitz said in a statement.
Booker responded by saying he would continue to pursue his "personal dream" of bringing the Nets to the $375 million Prudential Center "no matter how unrealistic."
"I yield to...Marty Markowitz, my esteemed colleague in the "eastern suburb" of Newark a.k.a Brooklyn, and would like to officially challenge him with the remaining shreds of my athletic pride to a one and one basketball game to battle for the Nets!"
Markowitz' website said one of his campaign promises was to bring the first national sports team back to Brooklyn since the Dodgers left.
"I accept Mayor Booker's challenge and must remind him that I am only 5-foot-5," said Markowitz. "I'll accept the challenge only if I can have a ringer play against him."
It's time to bring the Nets to Newark
Team moving to Brooklyn just doesn't make sense
by Steve Politi/Star-Ledger Columnist Friday May 02, 2008, 3:01 AM
NEW YORK -- The woman waiting at the Flatbush Avenue bus stop closes her novel and gestures with her hand, as if showing this out-of-town visitor the big attraction in Brooklyn. Except the attraction is ... nothing?
"Well, here it is," Julie Bleha says.
Where?
"Over there somewhere."
There?
"That's it."
Bleha, who lives a few blocks away, points across the busy street to a scene that includes many things. A busy rail yard. An abandoned house. Several empty lots. Oh, and traffic. Lots of that.
What's missing from this scene, however is much more telling. No cranes lifting steel girders. No bulldozers moving dirt piles. No construction foremen barking orders.
No signs of the swank $950 million arena that Nets owner Bruce Ratner has planned for his team or the accompanying housing project that his Web site promises will create "a new vision for downtown Brooklyn" -- and no signs anything will happen soon.
Well, that isn't entirely accurate. There is one sign, attached to a chain-link fence, that directs people to an office a few blocks if they have questions about the Atlantic Yards project or the arena.
One jumps to mind: Where the heck is it?
Nets officials insist they still are targeting the 2010-11 season as their first in their new home, but even they have to know that's silly talk. Ratner, who loved to glad-hand reporters after games when his project was on track, turned down multiple interview requests over the past month.
"We are going to Brooklyn," his CEO Brett Yormark said. He has bragged in recent interviews about a recent trip to Europe to meet with eager corporate investors about the project.
The Nets can't sell tickets in Paramus, but now they're going to sell sponsorships in Paris?
The truth is, this franchise is closer to winning an NBA championship than to playing games near the intersection of Atlantic and Flatbush in Brooklyn. And, as any Nets fan who saw a game last season can tell you, there is no rush to clear room in the rafters for a banner.
Most troubling for the team? You can't find many people outside of Ratner and his minions who think the arena in Brooklyn makes any sense now. The cost for the arena alone is quickly approaching $1 billion, which would make it twice as expensive as any in U.S. history.
The financial markets have stalled. The neighbor opposition is still strong -- residents filed yet another lawsuit this week. The team is already hemorrhaging money and writing its owners love letters requesting checks to cover those losses. And the best acts always will prefer to play at Madison Square Garden, no matter how nice a place Ratner manages to build for this often-overlooked borough.
Ratner needs to come to grips with this: His team is heading in the wrong direction, and it has nothing to do with missing the playoffs for the first time in seven seasons. Too much stands in the way of the ambitious Brooklyn move to think it will ever become a reality.
Staying put is not an option, either.The Izod Center -- eaten alive by the Xanadu mess at the Meadowlands -- needs millions in long-overdo improvements for it to continue as a viable home, and even then, it would never become a profitable one for the Nets.
That leaves one destination. Moving the team to Newark makes sense on so many levels, which is probably why it hasn't happened. The Prudential Center has oodles of open dates to fill, and unless Ratner has forgotten, this is the state that has supported his sorry franchise for the past 40 years.
The Nets are lost, and somebody needs to point them down Route 21. Ratner needs to strike a deal with Devils owner Jeffrey Vanderbeek in the short term to get the Nets out of the Meadowlands, a situation that would be mutually beneficial for both owners. And if the struggles continue across the Hudson, Ratner should sell the team to New Jersey investors to keep it where it belongs.
That would make Bleha and others in her neighborhood happy. The mood here about Atlantic Yards ranges from outrage to skepticism to apathy. Another rally against the project, billed as the biggest one yet, is planned for Saturday afternoon. A concert series featuring local musicians and the release of a documentary against the project will follow later in May.
"It's a complete and utter sellout," Bleha said from the bus stop. "Look at this traffic. This is the middle of the day on a weekday. All the housing that's supposed to be part of it? Well, where are the schools?"
The schools are only part of what's missing. Where are the condos? The affordable housing? The office space? The bulk of the project is stalled as Ratner struggles to find financing or an anchor tenant for its office building, with the arena remaining the priority.
What, if anything, that eventually will sprout up over the rail yard is a mystery to residents. Pat Cabbagestalk was sitting at a patio table outside of the Atlantic Terminal Mall -- the other Ratner creation in this neighborhood that is either an economic benefit or an unnecessary eyesore, depending on your perspective.
"My major concern is, what does it mean for the people who are being pushed out?" Cabbagestalk said. "The original concept was to build a stadium and housing. Now, the whole concept has changed. They're building the stadium first but not the affordable housing? I find that highly suspect.
"I don't think they're going to fulfill the promises," she said. "I think they just said all that to get it going."
From her seat, the progress -- a Chuck E. Cheese and a Target, among other typical chain stores -- was behind here, while the 22 acres that would become Atlantic Yards were in her line of sight.
She could see the rail yard, the chain link fence with that sign, the empty lots and buildings slated for demolition. But no signs of an arena for a lost basketball franchise that doesn't belong here. And none coming soon.
I don't know JC , it all comes down to Ratner and he has stated that the Nets aren't for sale.They can create a legion of investors and it still all comes down to one man who he sticking with his plans.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05012008...ale_108996.htm
So Booker wants to play some streetball, huh? Cute.
That's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEAMWORKSNYC
It isn't a fight over the Nets between Ratner and other interests. It's Ratner's decision, and it will be based on what's the better deal for him - selling the team or moving it to AY.
Moving the team gives him access to all the public funding, whether the project gets fully built or not. He gets a financed arena with no lease. He could become a Dolan, and sit on a cash cow for 30 years. If he sells the Nets, AY is finished.
So AY has to become less attractive than selling the team.
^^^^Well lets see if some people can make that happen. Make AYs unattractive, which it is becoming by the day, and watch the Nets go right to Newark where they rightfully belong.
Also let us not forget that before Corzine was Gov, he bid for the Nets, but was out-bid by Ratner!
Corzine wants Nets to stay in New Jersey
Friday, May 02, 2008
BY IAN T. SHEARN
Star-Ledger Staff
Gov. Jon Corzine said yesterday he would like the Nets to stay in New Jersey, be it Newark or East Rutherford, but sees no need for his involvement at this point.
"It would be encouraging to have the Nets stay here, whichever venue," Corzine said. "I would very much prefer they be in New Jersey as opposed to Brooklyn, and we will wait to hear whether there are propositions that the state has a role to play in," the governor told reporters following an appearance in Piscataway.
The governor's remarks came in response to a story in The Star-Ledger that ran yesterday. That story reported that Devils owner Jeffrey Vanderbeek and Newark Mayor Cory Booker are quietly trying to assemble an investment team should plans to build a new arena in Brooklyn go asunder.
"There have been no discussions with any elected officials or business executives about buying the team or moving to Newark," Nets owner Bruce Ratner said in a statement released yesterday. "The team is very simply not for sale and any stories that suggest or insinuate that we would be interested in listening to those conversations are flat-out false."
Nets president Rod Thorn yesterday underscored Ratner's assertions: "All the indications that I've been given are that we are going to Brooklyn, and that they expect us to be there in 2010. ... And yes, I've asked. I feel confident that it's going to happen, because that's what ownership says is going to happen."
But a statement filed by the team with the SEC a month ago lays out the risks related to the Brooklyn development.
"Our investment in the Nets is subject to a number of operational risks. .... There is also the potential for increased costs and delays to the project as a result of increasing construction costs, scarcity of labor and supplies, our inability to obtain tax-exempt financing or the availability of financing or public subsidies, increasing rates for financings, and other potential litigation seeking to enjoin or prevent the project for which there may not be insurance coverage."
Then, the report states, "If any of the foregoing risks were to occur, we may not be able to develop Brooklyn Atlantic Yards to the extent intended or at all."
Staff writers Claire Heininger and Dave D'Alessandro contributed to this report.
^^^Ratner has to give it up. I find it hard to believe Booker, Vanderbeek, Corzine, and the Star-Ledger are all lying or being miss quoted. Just admit that you have talked with them and exploring other options Ratner.
Rally Will Call on Governor To Halt Atlantic Yards
By PETER KIEFER
Staff Reporter of the Sun
May 2, 2008
Seizing on a string of reports questioning the economic viability of the Atlantic Yards project, hundreds of residents and a handful of elected officials are expected at a rally Saturday calling on Governor Paterson to step in and halt all demolition related to the $4 billion plan.
"There is tremendous uncertainty about the future of the project," Assemblyman Hakeem Jeffries said in an interview yesterday. "Myself and several of my colleagues in the state believe under Governor Paterson we have an opportunity for a complete re-evaluation of the size, scope, and definition for the Atlantic Yards project."
Since becoming governor, Mr. Paterson has been quiet on Atlantic Yards, an 8-million-square-foot development that would create more than 6,000 apartments, office space, and an arena for the Nets basketball team on 22 acres, near the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic avenues in Brooklyn. The plan required the state to exercise eminent domain, a process that Mr. Paterson opposed when he was a state senator.
The original Atlantic Yards proposal pledged 2,250 "moderate income" residential units, but a number of critics are now questioning whether the affordable housing will be built.
A spokesman for Forest City Ratner, Loren Riegelhaupt, said all facets of the plan, including the affordable housing, were moving forward and that the company expects to break ground on the arena later this year. "Nothing has changed. We are going to build all of the Atlantic Yards and all of the affordable housing. Any rumors that things have changed are flat-out wrong," he said.
Mr. Riegelhaupt also warned that any delays would hurt the community. "Any slowdown in our construction phase will only result in the delay of the affordable housing and the jobs we are trying to create with this project," he said.
Following an acknowledgement a month ago that the plan was delayed, developer Bruce Ratner and his company have been forced to address a series of questions about the project's viability.
Yesterday Mr. Ratner denied a report in the Newark Star-Ledger that the owner of the New Jersey Devils, Jeffrey Vanderbeek, and Mayor Cory Booker of Newark were trying to assemble investors to buy the Nets and move the basketball team to Newark from the Izod Center in the Meadowlands.
"The team is very simply not for sale and any stories that suggest or insinuate that we would be interested in listening to those conversations are flat out false," Mr. Ratner said in a statement. "We are focused on breaking ground on the Barclays Center in Brooklyn later this year and building all of Atlantic Yards, nothing else."
The Star-Ledger report came a day after a group of 13 residents whose apartments face condemnation filed a lawsuit in state Supreme Court in Manhattan. The suit alleges that the agreement between the Empire State Development Corporation and Forest City Ratner violates the state's eminent domain law, which says seized property must be offered back to its prior holder if it is not "materially improved" in 10 years.
The agreement reached with the ESDC gives Forest City at least 12 years to complete the first phase of the project and an unspecified amount of time for the second phase.
"Something is up. If the project was a done deal, why are they now talking about selling the Nets and why is the city funding an agreement allowing Ratner to build a project that is much smaller with far fewer affordable units with no penalty?" a spokesman for Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn, Daniel Goldstein, said. "That is why we need a time-out."
Senator Velmanette Montgomery, Assemblywoman Joan Millman, and City Council members Letitia James, David Yassky, and Tony Avella also are expected to participate in Saturday's rally.
It's Ratners team, so he calls the shots. If someone else wants to call the shots, then they have to buy the team. Nets fans wishes are just that. Maybe Corzine has enough money to buy the Nets, who knows?
Or stop the funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraperfannyc
If that happens, he'll probably actively pursue selling the team. It loses money where it is. He could retain ownership and move the team to Newark, but he wouldn't have the same sweet arena deal he'd have in Brooklyn.
Nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCMAN320
They belong wherever the owner (within NBA rules) wants them to be. All this other stuff with Corzine is political posturing. Even the desire to move the Nets to Newark is a purely economic consideration - making the arena more profitable.
actually, the realistic solution here is for jcman to move to brooklyn. puzzle solved.
I will not be detered. You cannot blame me for how I feel. I have such an emotional connection to this team.
My cusion was a cheerleader for them when they played at Rutgers while they waited for the Izod Center to be built in the early 80s and have heard great stories over the years, my first pro sporting event ever was a Nets game that my father took me too against the Cleveland Cavaliers when I was 7 ; it was the first and last time I saw one of the greatest Nets players, Drazen Petrovic, and my father's favorite picture of me is me in his old Nets cap. Also I have met many players and have many autographs and the games I have been to, I can't even begin to count. Some are most memorable, I was at one of Drazen Petrovics last game as a Nets before he died in a car accident, J-Kidd breaking numerous records, the great Pacer-Nets playoff series in 2002, Vince Carter's first game at home against Reggie Miller in front of a packed house, etc...
One great experience was over prom weekend. Me and my girl were down there with friends from prom in a hotel at Seaside Heights, which is a ritual right of passage for numerous teens in NJ and NY alike after senior prom, we were on the boardwalk hanging out a lil drunk, lol, and me and my girl at the time, still a Nets fan, sat down to play a wheel game (that wasn't all we did lol). They had TV's you could win, and on the TV was the Nets-Pistons playoff series Game 5 in 04 and the guy running it let us sit to watch the game. It went to triple overtime and the Nets won and as the game went on a sizeable crowd gathered and was cheering and groaning with the game and erupted in joy when the Nets won. Strangers were huggin eachother and high fiving. I called my father and he was excited, people on the boardwalk were cheering. Just another great memory!!
Also my parents got divorced when I was 6 and the New Jersey Nets were something that me and my father could always relate to and have in common. It was tough and this was something me and my father could do every weekend and made the transition easier, it also helped he only moved 2 blocks away. He use to make a special pizza every other Friday, the weekends I would spend with him, and it was a ritual pre-game fun thing we would do. My father and I have always had a great relationship, and some of, how ever big or small, I owe to the New Jersey Nets. He had season tickets in section 201 first row upper-deck from the 90s to the early 2000s when they went to the NBA Finals, then they got too expensive, so they were the team I was most attached to in my early youth.
I know they aren't going far, it's only Brooklyn, but they will be different. They won't be OUR team, the team that started here as the NJ Americans in 1967, the team New Jersey has supported for going on 30 years +, they will be just another NY team in a glitzy arena that will adopted by a people who have no deep connection to the team and are only rooting for them because they will be in Brooklyn. Especially if they change the "Nets" name. One possible I heard would be the "Brooklyn Knights" as a play on word for Brooklynites.
I will root for them if they go to Brooklyn, but will fight to keep them in New Jersey; and if they change the Nets name, all bets are off. They are a part of my history, part of my childhood
Atlantic Yards' Miss Brooklyn is slashed more than 100 feet in massive redo
By Jotham Sederstrom
Daily News Staff Writer
There she goes.
Miss Brooklyn, the Frank Gehry-designed signature tower of the controversial Atlantic Yards project, has been dumped.
Originally envisioned as a 620-foot residential and commercial tower, the newly named "B1" - or Building One - will be slashed to 511 feet and feature commercial office space only, Gehry said yesterday.
"My enthusiasm for Atlantic Yards has grown and grown until arriving at our current design, which works better with the surrounding area than it ever had before," said Gehry of new designs obtained exclusively by the Daily News.
"Miss Brooklyn, now called Building One, has been slimmed down and has become more festive, resulting in a very unique office building," he said.
"I've tried to give it some energy and excitement as it meshes with the arena design."
The 34-story structure - once expected to rise higher than the Williamsburgh Savings Bank - will now be dwarfed by it. The sleek Miss Brooklyn is replaced by an asymmetrical design that rises like a spiraling Lego structure, edges askew.
The glass-and-steel-framed building, seen as the centerpiece of the oft-stalled 22-acre project, will no longer house condos and instead will offer 650,000 square feet of office space, officials said.
The condos will be shifted to a different building or be built as rental units instead, said Forest City Ratner Executive Vice President MaryAnne Gilmartin.
Meanwhile, "B2," which will be completed first, is a red-and-pink-hued, 340-foot building featuring 350 market-rate and affordable apartments, which Gehry said "speaks to the residential fabric of the neighborhood."
The $4.2 billion project, slated to include 16 residential and commercial towers encircling a pro basketball arena for the New Jersey Nets, has seen its share of trouble since the plan was approved by state officials in 2006.
There's been a bevy of lawsuits waged by opponents.
In March, supporters and critics were shocked to learn that much of the project - including the former Miss Brooklyn - would be delayed because of a looming financial crisis.
Ratner officials now claim the constantly changing project is on track to be built by 2018.
Opponents still say that's an ambitious target date because there's no deal yet on financing or an anchor tenant.
jsederstrom@nydailynews.com
http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/...ic-yards-3.jpg
http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/...ic-yards-4.jpg
http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/...ic-yards-2.jpg
http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/...ic-yards-1.jpg
http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/...ic-yards-5.jpg
I really don't think Gehry does height well. Between this (if it ever happens, and I'm doubtful) and Beekman, I am pretty worried about his tower designs.
Not sure I like this new iteration of "Miss Brooklyn." Seems a lot more busier.
On a sidenote wasn't the building alread at 511 feet in the last redesign. The article makes it seem that it was cut another 100 feet.
This project will not happen as it is planned my friend. Ratner will not put a dollar down on this and the more its delayed the more he is loosing. No chance of getting a majoe tenant for Ms.Brooklyn or Building 1 or whatever he is calling it now. We have over 12 million sf of towers planned for Manhattan that need to be rented first before brokers will push BK. There is just no real saving for a firm to move to BK as its still the same city with high taxes and higher energy costs. If its BK versus Manhattan, firms take Manhattan always and if its Bk versus Jersey City or Stamford they win
B1, B2, and the arena all look great. I wasn't a big fan of the previous iterations, but knew they weren't final. If this is the final design I am more than pleased.
I quite like the new B1 but B2 is standard Gehry nonsense.
if you look really closely at the third rendering from the top you can see JCMAN entering the arena.
go brooklyn!!!