WTC Memorial - by Michael Arad (Architect) and Peter Walker (Landscape)

I think the WTC memorial can possibly be similar 'in concept' to the neaby ' famine' memorial in BPC.

There is an undergroung tomb there that respectfully mournes the individuals who have perished - yet, within the same "memoral" the is a lovely public garden on a hill, walking path meandering up to a summit for a river view. All very nice to visit (particularly in the summer) and yet there is still the "underbelly" that meets the need to address the tragic aspect of the millions who died in the famine.

I would hope to see the WTC commitee bring in who ever came up with the "irish famine memorial" because they are not Nitwits. Non of us are perfedt but way to many misteps, and shocking ineptitude with the whole WTC rebuilding. (IMO)

cheers

fioco,
I don't know professor Young, 'haven't read his memorial book or attended any of his lectures. He was on the competition jury and is at least partially repsonsible for what's on the plate.

Some of the guidelines were tossed aside, but this issue of the remains remains.

You make a good point about the existential aspect of symbols, i.e. each individual must find his own truth.

Professor Young wants to compromise so as to cater to everyone without satisfying anyone. Ongoing situation.

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Originally Posted by infoshare

Ah.........has anyone else noticed that, viewed from a distance, the floorplan and "comtemplation room" look exactly like the open court of Mecca with its "sacred black cube" in the center.

Talk about an Irony of Ironies. http://www.yemenistudents.org.uk/images/mecca.jpg

(L-out-L) This stuff just gets more obsurd with each passing day.

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I don't know why anybody would think an empty black cube with two towers would evoke a Mecca image at Ground Zero. ;-)

http://static.flickr.com/32/57460746_e26e790c5b_m.jpg

And a closeup view of the arched galleries around the perimeter show some similarity to the base configuration of the original Towers ...

So ... was it an Islamic symbol all along?!?!?

(the circle is simply the void within the cube)

Yes! It's a global conspiracy! The DaVinci Code!



BTW, something like 350 muslims were killed in a stampede in Mecca, this happens like every year. Do you think hundreds of people will be stampeded in the WTC memorial?

And,,,,,and the memorial designer said "I want the vessel (containing the remains) to be a Touch-stone" as I read in the esquire article. The (cube in mecca) is in fact a stone - spicifically a - Touch-stone - which is the purpose for the yearly pilgrmage to mecca; to touch the sacrid stone of mecca- something people can gather around.

We definately have a full blown islamo-conspiracy on our hands, and it is being blown wide open right here on wny. (L-O-L)

cheers

(Quote from ARAD) "Asked, then, what was the purpose of the monolith itself, Mr. Arad said, "It provides a touchstone, a center, something that people can gather around."
http://www.yemenistudents.org.uk/images/mecca.jpg

So the Irish are really Muslims?

http://www.mike-reed.com/images/Trav...ey%20Stone.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ninjahedge

So the Irish are really Muslims?

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So mabe then......its an AH, islamo-celtic conspiracy!

Cheers

The whole thing has gotten bizarre.

If the site is to be a burial ground, then the remains should be buried. What's the point of having them catalogued in a mini-morgue? The chance that a decade or two from now, a bone fragment might be identified should be weighed against having people (if you choose to regard them as such) filed away.

Regarding the varying significance that cultures place on remains, I think it is universal that the process involves moving the dead from this existence to another.

Why not make the cube be the refrigerated vault - they have to put the remains somewhere, why not there? Either do that or don't have it at all; everyone will know the remains aren't inside making it meaningless and pointless, and therefore cheesy.

The should turn that big slab into a Cold Stone Creamery countertop and serve free ice cream to visitors.

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Originally Posted by BrooklynRider

The should turn that big slab into a Cold Stone Creamery countertop and serve free ice cream to visitors.

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Hell yeah! Every good carnival has one these days.

Was today some kind of a test of the heated waterfalls?:confused: I looked out my window and couldn't see anything the whole day. Well I hope it was a test, that's exactly the effect I want from the memorial.

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Originally Posted by Jake

I have continually agreed with the family members as far as needs for a grand and private memorial go. I am a little disturbed by what one might call a power grab that they've recently been attempting. Tourists at GZ annoy me, maybe because I have to dodge them on my way to work or maybe because they portray a place of my great suffering as nothing more than a postcard background for their photographs. However I know the reality is that they will always be there and the best I think we can do is somehow "educate" them on what really happened. The scope of the tragedy will IMO not be visible until the FT is built. .

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The idea of what the memorial/memorial center is for is a good one. In terms of educating people, people can read articles, books, see movies, or get stuff off the internet to educate themselves. There is no need for a complex to do education. But here, the education can can be done with artifacts, which can add context to the education.

But in reality, a good portion of what goes on with tourists is rubbernecking. They come here to feel they are more complete because they are able to feel sad. For some, it enhances their feeling of this country as victem (remember the Republican National Convention?). The point is that the Memorial/Memorial Center will be largely a timed and controlled emotional ride.

What's interesting is why family members feel this use of the "sacred" ground is more important than people looking at art or attending a performance. Why are tourist uses so honored while ongoing life activities are so horibble. Remember, family members used to be offended by the tourists, and photo taking was prohibited. Now we are recreating it so people can stop and stare to their hearts content.

If you ever walk down Church Street, look at where the crowds are. There will be a few people looking at the history of downtown, a few at the list of names, but most crowd around the recounting of the attacks. People want explosions, smoke, fire, and collapsing buildings. And servicing them is better than having a dance performance?

A place exclusively for family members to mourn, as can be seen in the diagrams, could be quite small.

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Originally Posted by Nordica

There are lots of pieces Jake, so many it will take the ME years to go through them and extract DNA.

They've been freeze-dried, catalogued and bagged.

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It's hard to determine what to do with body parts. For those without remains, who have set their hearts on remains, the fact that their are unidentified parts keeps hopes alive for something they might never get. So their hoping for parts will cause them pain until they die. Once all living family members have died, they might still be identifying people. Then will there be extended family member reunions?

There is an obsession with these body parts rooted in our religious notions. I believe, a mass cremation with ashes stored would be a better solution. Many family members might prefer it. But how can you call for cremation of parts when you don't know whose parts your cremating. What if 90% want cremation and 10 % perpetual storage. You can't cremate because you might be cremating the 10%. Everyone is stuck with anticipation of something that might never happen.

Starting to sound like religion? Did someone see Mecca in the footprints?

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Originally Posted by davestanke

The idea of what the memorial/memorial center is for is a good one. In terms of educating people, people can read articles, books, see movies, or get stuff off the internet to educate themselves. There is no need for a complex to do education. But here, the education can can be done with artifacts, which can add context to the education.

But in reality, a good portion of what goes on with tourists is rubbernecking. They come here to feel they are more complete because they are able to feel sad. For some, it enhances their feeling of this country as victem (remember the Republican National Convention?). The point is that the Memorial/Memorial Center will be largely a timed and controlled emotional ride.

What's interesting is why family members feel this use of the "sacred" ground is more important than people looking at art or attending a performance. Why are tourist uses so honored while ongoing life activities are so horibble. Remember, family members used to be offended by the tourists, and photo taking was prohibited. Now we are recreating it so people can stop and stare to their hearts content.

If you ever walk down Church Street, look at where the crowds are. There will be a few people looking at the history of downtown, a few at the list of names, but most crowd around the recounting of the attacks. People want explosions, smoke, fire, and collapsing buildings. And servicing them is better than having a dance performance?

A place exclusively for family members to mourn, as can be seen in the diagrams, could be quite small.

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Agreed. We're on the same wavelengths here.

I mean there are people that LIVE down near the WTC site and people who WORK down there EVERYDAY and we're putting their interests, and in effect the interests of the future of Downtown Manhattan, behind the interests of a small group of families and tourists who will visit the site for a few hours and then leave in tour buses.

We have a prime opperunity here to create a marvel of urban planning and engineering, a symbol of the City of New York's optimism and place as the capitol of world culture and we're squandering it to create acres of empty and desolate memorial space instead of a dynamic memorial that having an opera company or a theatre would provide.

Rebuilding better than before is much more of a memorial to the people that were lost on September 11th than a few acres of concrete will ever be.

All is not lost. The Drawing Center is gone; that is a shame, but not the end of everything. The Freedom Center was lost. Did anyone really have a clue what that was supposed to be about? Don't half the museums in America have a freedom thread running though them? We can live without that. The fight now will be to get the performance complex built. If the families need their quadrant, as long as the other three pulse with life, commerce, and culture, I think we will be OK.

The performance center is unlikely ever to be built. It has no separate fundraising arm. Rather, fundraising for it is being conducted by the WTC Memorial Committee (pay attention to the name), which has said that the memorial comes first. Since the memorial in question has ballooned in cost to more than a billion dollars, which the Committee will never be able to raise (even several of its own members have declined to contribute to the cause), the performing arts center is doomed. Even if you wanted to donate $100 for construction of the center, you could not do so. You can only donate to the Committee, which is controleld by the "families" and which will spend your money on waterfalls and marble crypts and such. The only way to save the performing arts center would be to replace the Joyce and Signature tenants -- two minor cultural attractions -- with an organization that can do its own fundraising, like the City Opera. Those two charity cases are waiting for a handout that will never come.

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Originally Posted by macreator

We have a prime opperunity here to create a marvel of urban planning and engineering, a symbol of the City of New York's optimism and place as the capitol of world culture ... Rebuilding better than before is much more of a memorial to the people that were lost on September 11th ....

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Unfortunately that horse left the barn years ago ...

Maybe someone could round up that horse. (I'll remain optimistic, in spite of the nitwits).

I find it gruesomely obnoxious to keep body parts in the basement. A stupid add to the already overly complex design guidelines.

It makes the place a tomb instead of a memorial. I don't know of any memorial with a similar feature.

I've looked into the question to a small degree. There is one Russian buried near the outstanding "Mother Russia" War memorial outside Volgograd. I suppose there were pieces all over that hill as tens of thousands died there, but they're not in a box in the basement.

Maybe someone could ask Professor Jim, the juror, if he knows of others. I doubt I'll ever read his book.

I also agree. Keeping a tomb would render the entire idea of preserving the site pointless. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the reason for the footprints and the sole occupation of the site by the memorial was that it was sacred ground where nearly 3000 lay. By forming a tomb they're saying, forget those around you, focus on the piece of someone's hand that's there behind the glass. I think it takes the whole religion, spirutuality, sentiment, whatver out of the place.

I don't think this memorial should have a shrine or a single place of focus. One place to leave flowers or whatever is understandable and practical, but all 16 acres are a memorial to what we lost, not one room because someone said it is. To me West Str, or the PATH station are no less important than the deepest part of the pit where the foundations of the trade center were. The void is too big to be represented by a singular "tomb." Moreover I don't think that there should be anything to "see" at the memorial, artifacts should be present because it is after all a place of remembrance but I don't want any "let me take a picture with this _____."

Headline: CELEBRATE LIFE AT GROUND ZERO.
THE 9-11 MEMORIAL'S FOCUS IS DEVOID OF INSPIRATION ARTS CAN BRING


Byline: BY DAVE STANKE
What is the appropriate response when a foreign enemy attacks an American city, destroying a national symbol and killing nearly 3,000 people? How do you show respect without perpetuating the destruction? One way is to rebuild a site that is more vital to honor the dead. A different response is to honor the dead by torching any reemergence of new life. The latter approach is taking hold at the World Trade Center.
A small but powerful group of family members, Take Back the Memorial, supports the latter vision. They have demanded that various cultural facilities be expelled from the site. Any project or activity that offends someone has been portrayed as an insult to America and the deceased. Yet, what business, retail establishment or cultural activity can exist without eventually crossing someone's line of appropriate behavior?
Cultural facilities belong at the WTC site. Artists' creative outpourings inspire us. They give context to our lives and national existence. They provide balance to a place of mourning, and filter the effects of an act of hatred. They would encourage people to return to the memorial again and again. Without this context, the memorial becomes a tourist site, locked in time and isolated from the city around it.
As cultural facilities are driven from the WTC, many city and cultural leaders have looked the other way. But attempts to placate the family-group members will not satisfy them. The group's success is the fertilizer for further demands.
Every player at the WTC site has honored the 9/11 deceased by doing its best work to bring the site back. The Port Authority, Silverstein Properties and the Lower Manhattan Development Corp. are selecting world-class architects and designers for the projects. 7 World Trade Center stands as a beacon of hope for our neighborhoods and a symbol of American resilience. The rebuilding of this site in itself honors those we lost.
If Take Back the Memorial would stop attacking these good efforts, the memorial and cultural pieces of the WTC would come together. But they won't.
The LMDC needs to create a new foundation with sole authority to raise money for WTC cultural facilities. This foundation would honor the dead with expressions of life. We have people who want to Take Back the Memorial. Let those of us who want to Give a Heart to the site come together to create an inspiring vision that New York City and America will love. In 200 years, future generations will decide which vision withstood the test of time and truly honored those lost.
Stanke, a freelance writer, lives with his wife and four children downtown.


I published this in the Daily News. It's clear (especially with the fountains) that no culture will get funded by the Memorial Foundation. I'd recommend a broader cultural plan, including outdoor performances, possible use of unrented space in neighboring buildings as they become available, festivals, etc. The Performance Center could be the corner stone for broader support of culture downtown. And it could caste a brighter feeling over the memorial.

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Originally Posted by davestanke

What is the appropriate response when a foreign enemy attacks an American city, destroying a national symbol and killing nearly 3,000 people?

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Showing support for your President is a good start!

Looks like binladin knows where to find a receptive audience: today he has extended a warm embrace to all his fellow Bush haters.

(quote from todays release of binladin taped message) "There is no problem in this solution, but it will prevent hundreds of billions from going to influential people and warlords in America -- those who supported Bush's electoral campaign. And from this, we can understand Bush and his gang's insistence on continuing the war," the voice said.

The memorial has become one huge symbol of how divided (And therefore weak) we have become in the wake of the terrist attack.

I believe that the families of 911 need to "take back the memorial" its all getting to bizarre and devisive.

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Originally Posted by infoshare

Showing support for your President is a good start!

Looks like binladin knows where to find a receptive audience: today he has extended a warm embrace to all his fellow Bush haters.

(quote from todays release of binladin taped message) "There is no problem in this solution, but it will prevent hundreds of billions from going to influential people and warlords in America -- those who supported Bush's electoral campaign. And from this, we can understand Bush and his gang's insistence on continuing the war," the voice said.

The memorial has become one huge symbol of how divided (And therefore weak) we have become in the wake of the terrist attack.

I believe that the families of 911 need to "take back the memorial" its all getting to bizarre and devisive.

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The above statement was brought to you by the Bush propaganda machine. Remember, dissent is unpatriotic!

Info, stop spouting crap. Please?

If you want to start a discussion on the new tape, please find the appropriate thread to do so. Your subject matter, the way you addressed it, and overal demeaning attitude to any that disagree with what Bush and Co. is doing is not going to convince anyone, and is only going to turn any thread it is posted in into a flame war.


Get back to the subject.


I think the Memorial is going through the same evolution as Grief usually takes. I am just hoping that Politics do not delay the 7 stages and we can get to acceptance with a memorial that remembers, but does not relive or sanctify the event.

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Originally Posted by Ninjahedge

I think the Memorial is going through the same evolution as Grief usually takes. I am just hoping that Politics do not delay the 7 stages ...

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What stage are we at now?

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Originally Posted by lofter1

What stage are we at now?

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OK, I found this:

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DISBELIEF

Immediately after a death it can be hard to accept that the death has occurred. You may try to deny it, or feel numb with shock. You may expect to continue seeing your loved one, even though you know they are dead.


ANGER

Some people feel angry at their loved ones for leaving, or angry at God for taking their loved one away. They may even feel anger at themselves or at life in general for the unfairness of having lost the one they love. Others may feel a need to blame another ‘actual’ person.


PHYSICAL PROBLEMS

Grief can take a physical toll on your health, causing weight loss or weight gain. You may feel increased anxiety over day to day events, or a sense of being unable to cope with routine tasks. You may have a weakened ability to fight disease or illness. Another common physical manifestation of grief is tiredness. You should talk with your health care provider about any physical problems you may experience.


FEAR

Death tends to bring into focus the fear of your own dying, as well as the fear and uncertainty of life without your loved one. Fear is natural and healthy, however, it it consumes your every waking moment you should seek professional counseling.


GUILT

Although it is perfectly normal to regret those things that were said or not said. Things that you may or may not have done, or those that you only failed to do, you should never allow yourself to remain guilty. It is better to remember those things that you did, together, with your deceased loved one, that brought both of you closer together.


PROLONGED DEPRESSION

In a perfect world no one would ever be sad. Unfortunately, in a perfect world no one would ever die, either. We do not live in a perfect world. Deep sadness is a natural part of bereavement. However, in some people, grief can trigger a long lasting and devastating depression. It’s important to remember that, although a prolonged depression regarding the death of a loved one is expected, the will to die, or the loss of all outside interests and enthusiasm is a sign of a serious medical depression. Other warning signs include lack of energy, thoughts of suicide, withdrawal from family and friends and excessive sleep. If you are experiencing these symptoms, or know someone who is, please seek medical help.


ACCEPTANCE

As you come to terms with your loss, you may develop new outlooks on life, or even new thoughts about major life decisions. This is healthy and natural, and will enhance your acceptance as you learn to experience the joys of life once again.

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I think we are having physical problems. Although bits of Fear, Depression and Guilt have been floating around... :P

In so much as grief relates to this thread, (the selection of RA), we're still in the disbelief and anger stages, but the plan itself is suffering the physical problems.

oh, okay ... I was sure we'd entered the "prolonged depression" stage.

jeez, what will that hold in store for us??????????

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Originally Posted by lofter1

oh, okay ... I was sure we'd entered the "prolonged depression" stage.

jeez, what will that hold in store for us??????????

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I don't know.

Who cares. What does it really matter anymore......

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Originally Posted by lofter1

oh, okay ... I was sure we'd entered the "prolonged depression" stage.

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Thank you lofter, and others, for a civil and relevant comment.

To my original point: abut the WTC memorial. We are at the "take back the memorial.org" stage. - My imput on the WTC memorial is to listen to the "families of 911 group" who have IMO other/better ideas of the WTC memorial.

My responce was to another post who stated that "the families of 911" need to get out of the WTC memorial debate. REad below. (by Davestanke) "If Take Back the Memorial would stop attacking these good efforts, the memorial and cultural pieces of the WTC would come together. But they won't."

My point was and is that the WTC memorial is mired in controversey, and that is commonly accepted knowledge - unity of purpose is needed - I believe the families of 911 know to do to put the WTC memorial back on track.

cheers

I don't understand.

It is my impression that the take back the memorial or 09/11 families group is in complete control of the memorial.

Are you referring to some other group?

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Originally Posted by davestanke

A small but powerful group of family members, Take Back the Memorial, supports the latter vision. They have demanded that various cultural facilities be expelled from the site.

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My responce was in opposition to the above statement - he wants that groupe out - obviously. I am simply stating my support for the "familiesof911.org" and siting my reasons for it: nothing more.

No such website. When was the last time you visited?

My point is that a group of families under the banner of Take Back the Memorial have poisoned the debate to the point that most other family members just want nothing to do with it. The family members I know have no interest in the whole thing, and think these people have gone out of control. In any group of people, there will be some who take extreme positions. They will make a lot of noise. In this case, we are building a monstrosity for the benefit of 50 people. And I wouldn't care if 1,000 people wanted it. What is being built is so extravagantly expensive and so mired in the first year of morning that it is meaningless today before it is even built.

Perhaps we (societal) should have said to the family members, "Here is $100 Million dollars. You decide what to build on this 4 acre piece of land. Then there would have been some degree of reason applied and no one could have said that not enough resources had been offered. The problem is the breakage between responsibility and decision making.

Anyone involved in the process knows that family members have been and should be involved. But this group of family members is different. Resonable and positively oriented people have gotten disgusted with the dialoge and left. They have decided that getting on with life is more important than arguing about locations of steel beams and where the person who attends to frozen body parts will have his/her office.

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Originally Posted by Ninjahedge

I don't know.

Who cares. What does it really matter anymore......

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The involved people are still in the state of anger. They are angry at anyone who doesn't give them what they want. Maintaining their anger is important for their positions. They have to keep that emotion going to maintain their power. People not involved have gone through other stages, I expect. Many are remarried and moving on with life. But for some, sustaining power and influence mandates that they not move on in any way, at least not in public.

The problem is that even these 50 angry people (I actually think it's closer to 10) will have to get on with their lives eventually, but they will have left with with a billion-dollar, four-acre boondoggle in our midst that will deaden the area around it for the next 100 years.

Actually, I don't think it will deaden the area at all. I believe it will fail to work in the way they think it will though. The underground areas and whatever "9/11 Center" gets put on the site will be nothing more than a minor attraction after the first couple of years, if that long. There will be heated debates about how to "fix" them but something will happen eventually.

In the meantime the "park" will continue to draw people for its park like attributes and just because looking at the 2 big holes will be interesting in a sort of archeological way. In other words, the park will really become a park. There's just no way you can surround a park with 10 million sq. ft. of office space (not to mention the WFC) and have it not be used if there are a lot of trees in it.

JMG, that might be the case if the WTC memorial planners allowed it to be a park. But they are actively taking steps to make sure that it will never be a true park. They have already said that there will be no rollerblading, no frisbees, no dogs, no bicycling, all of which have been deemed "disrespectful." How many City parks do you know like that? That should keep out a large share of the residents, who are the persons most likely to use the space during off hours. Also, I don't have a crystal ball, but I suspect that they will not include the park benches, or the Bryant Park-style tables and chairs, necessary to draw in office workers on their lunch breaks -- certainly, I never see such things in any of the renderings. In short, the four-acre space is being designed as inhospitable to anyone but tourists -- and purposely so, as the "families" who control the WTC Memorial Foundation oppose any use for the space other than as tribute to their fallen loved ones.

Didn't some of the people who died have beloved pets? Weren't some of them rollerbladers, or bikers? With all of the money being put into concrete, can't they police the area to ensure that people and dogs are free to responsibly use the area? They can heat the pools through the winter, but they can't have someone to ensure discipline on dogs?

It's all a matter of priority. No cost is too much for things promoting sorrow and pain. But any indication of life has to be outlawed.

I don't post here often but I am an architect (know Michael Arad personally) and think that the waterfalls having to be turned off in cold weather is bad and the reduced footprints is even worse.

The potential for frozen waterfalls (which most every landscape designer and architect predicted) is just a weakness in the initial design concept, and could be easily overcome by slight changes to the design and a little heated water (if someone wanted to pay for that).

The reduced footprints size is a much greater affront to the spirit of the memorial because it quite literally minimizes the importance of 9/11. I am constantly amazed (but not completely surprised) at how the memorial is made to take the back seat to what is essentially now a real estate endeavor. (It's a lot like watching the craven machinations of the Bush administration- just when you think you've seen it all, they do something worse.) The worst part of all this is that people's lives, and the survivor's families, are being marginalized- witness the current court proceedings on the disposition of the Fresh Kills burial remains. I don't see how anyone can complain about their role in fighting for what they think is best for the memorial- I wouldn't want to be in their places.

WTC Foundation To Keep Fountain Flowing Year-Round

01.18.2006

Despite recent reports that the waterfalls in the World Trade Center Memorial will be turned off during the winter, the World Trade Center Memorial Foundation recently announced that the water will indeed run all year round. On January 10, the foundation, which will build, operate, and own the memorial, allocated $300,000 to adjust the design for cold-weather modifications and another $750,000 per year for operational costs. This decision is a reversal from the foundation’s December declaration that the waterfalls would not run in the winter months.

Lower Manhattan Development Corporation (LMDC) Memorial Design Director Anne Papageorge was quoted in the December 9–15 issue of Downtown Express as saying “The fountain will not run in the winter months.” She explained that visitors “will not only be cold, but wet. The wind will blow water into the galleries” and winter operational costs will be “extremely expensive by factors of four or five.”

The waterfalls are an integral part of the initial design Reflecting Absence, by Michael Arad and Peter Walker, and were to cascade year-round into reflecting pools where the names of the victims of the 1993 and 2001 attacks are engraved. In December, after months of testing a $175,000 memorial prototype in Ontario, Canada, the LMDC concluded that the waterfalls could not function through winter in its current design state, due to the cold Northeastern climate, threat of ice expansion and the high cost of operation.

Foundation spokesperson Lynn Rasic asserted that the design change was largely due to the leadership of construction consultant Peter Lehrer, who has been working with Arad and the other designers to come up with a resolution. “It’s something that we’ve been looking to change for some time,” said Rasic.

The modified design includes four additional heat exchangers and pumps which will warm the circulating water during periods of freezing temperatures. Additionally, computerized controls for the central building management system will activate and monitor the heating of water in response to falling temperatures. Also, exterior edges and overhangs of the memorial will be heated as well, in order to prevent the formation of icicles, which are often formed by droplets and mist.

When asked about previously stated concerns of water intruding into galleries and frigid visitor experiences, Rasic said, “We don’t anticipate the spray to create an uncomfortable visitor experience, and the waterfalls will not affect the museum.”

The additional funding adds to the current cost of $330 million for the memorial. A heated prototype is not planned, as the WTC Foundation believes extensive testing has been completed. Construction is slated to begin in Spring 2006 and is scheduled for completion in 2009.

TERESA HERRMANN

www.archpaper.com

What about the steam that will result when warm water meets cold air?

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Originally Posted by Wrightfan

... I am constantly amazed (but not completely surprised) at how the memorial is made to take the back seat to what is essentially now a real estate endeavor. ... The worst part of all this is that people's lives, and the survivor's families, are being marginalized- witness the current court proceedings on the disposition of the Fresh Kills burial remains. I don't see how anyone can complain about their role in fighting for what they think is best for the memorial- I wouldn't want to be in their places.

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I am constantly amazed (but not completely surprised) by the ill-informed comments we sometimes get on this Board.

It is is ridiculous to assert that the memorial is taking a "back seat." Four acres in the middle of the densest part of the densest City in the nation -- and hundreds of millions of dollars -- have been set aside to commemoriate the deaths of the 3,000 victims of 9/11. The memorial is bigger than those devoted to wars which cost many times more American lives. Personally, I resent your obnoxious implication that that is somehow insufficient.

As far as Fresh Kills, let me say this once more: THERE ARE NO HUMAN REMAINS AT FRESH KILLS. All unidentified human remains are in the custody of the NYC Medical Exmainer's Office. The WTC debris was carefully combed -- to a quarter of an inch -- for all human remains. What is left are toxic building debris, which can only be moved at great risk to the environment, and for no benefit whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by BPC

JMG, that might be the case if the WTC memorial planners allowed it to be a park. But they are actively taking steps to make sure that it will never be a true park. They have already said that there will be no rollerblading, no frisbees, no dogs, no bicycling, all of which have been deemed "disrespectful." How many City parks do you know like that? That should keep out a large share of the residents, who are the persons most likely to use the space during off hours. Also, I don't have a crystal ball, but I suspect that they will not include the park benches, or the Bryant Park-style tables and chairs, necessary to draw in office workers on their lunch breaks -- certainly, I never see such things in any of the renderings. In short, the four-acre space is being designed as inhospitable to anyone but tourists -- and purposely so, as the "families" who control the WTC Memorial Foundation oppose any use for the space other than as tribute to their fallen loved ones.

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I know that this is the current plan but, like I said, I think that will start to change once people start realizing the reality of the place. It will turn into a park and probably much quicker than the current planners realize. That being said, it is never going to compete with the multitude of waterfront parks at BPC, especially for the frisbee, roller-blading set, but it will get used in its own way.

On the other had, the underground areas are going to be a sad state of affairs until they can get some museum or other cultural institution to occupy them. Its going to be "Revenge of the Drawing Center" within 5-10 years of completion.

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Originally Posted by davestanke

The involved people are still in the state of anger. They are angry at anyone who doesn't give them what they want. Maintaining their anger is important for their positions. They have to keep that emotion going to maintain their power. People not involved have gone through other stages, I expect. Many are remarried and moving on with life. But for some, sustaining power and influence mandates that they not move on in any way, at least not in public.

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Dude, read the steps. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Wrightfan

The reduced footprints size is a much greater affront to the spirit of the memorial because it quite literally minimizes the importance of 9/11.

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I think it is an affront to the people of New York to quantify the importance of 09/11 by the size of an object.

We are well aware of its importance. We were reminded just yesterday by the latest rantings from the man living in the cave.

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Originally Posted by Wrightfan

I don't post here often but I am an architect (know Michael Arad personally) and think that the waterfalls having to be turned off in cold weather is bad and the reduced footprints is even worse.

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Well, yes, but the proposition to have either, and necessitate these changes being suggested, is even worse. One thing you must learn in Architecture, you can try to have everything, but it will cost you at every turn.

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The potential for frozen waterfalls (which most every landscape designer and architect predicted) is just a weakness in the initial design concept, and could be easily overcome by slight changes to the design and a little heated water (if someone wanted to pay for that).

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Did you take thermodynamics in college? Do you know how MUCH a "little" heated water is, and how much that will cost? Do you realize that with that much surface area AND a waterfall, how much heat would be lost to the air?

You also realize that no matter how much you heat it, you will get frost buildup due to the mist, so there is that little problem as well...

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The reduced footprints size is a much greater affront to the spirit of the memorial because it quite literally minimizes the importance of 9/11.

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Importance? So you are diefying the terrorist act? 9-11 in and of itself WAS NOT IMPORTANT. It should be villified, not vaunted. Having to have the entire footprints as sacred was an impractical idea from the get go. They should have stuck with outlining the footprints in the halls, plazas, lobbies and other areas of any buildings built on them (like the "chalk outline" kind of thing). Building a hole in the grount to commemorate something like this is rediculous.

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I am constantly amazed (but not completely surprised) at how the memorial is made to take the back seat to what is essentially now a real estate endeavor.

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It always was real estate. Since when should the WTC take a back seat to a MEMORIAL? It is a MEMORIAL, not a SHRINE TO THE DESTRUCTION!

And it has been the construction that has taken a back seat to the memorial, and the few people screaming that whatever is done is still not enough.

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(It's a lot like watching the craven machinations of the Bush administration- just when you think you've seen it all, they do something worse.)

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Straw man. It has nothing to do with Bush, and likening the two is not going to get you support for what you say.

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The worst part of all this is that people's lives, and the survivor's families, are being marginalized- witness the current court proceedings on the disposition of the Fresh Kills burial remains. I don't see how anyone can complain about their role in fighting for what they think is best for the memorial- I wouldn't want to be in their places.

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Well, you need to open your eyes a bit more. It is obvious why people are fighting and contesting the groups that want to turn the site into a necrophilial graveyard.

There should be a memorial, but like I have said on here, a memorial is to remember, not to relive. The bigger the memorial, the more people will forget about the important things, and the more they will be trapped in reliving the past rather than learning from it and living on.

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Originally Posted by Wrightfan

The reduced footprints size is a much greater affront to the spirit of the memorial because it quite literally minimizes the importance of 9/11. I am constantly amazed (but not completely surprised) at how the memorial is made to take the back seat to what is essentially now a real estate endeavor. (It's a lot like watching the craven machinations of the Bush administration- just when you think you've seen it all, they do something worse.) The worst part of all this is that people's lives, and the survivor's families, are being marginalized- witness the current court proceedings on the disposition of the Fresh Kills burial remains. I don't see how anyone can complain about their role in fighting for what they think is best for the memorial- I wouldn't want to be in their places.

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Firstly, no one is in any way going to notice that the footprints are a dozen feet off. It is a symolic gesture and they will still be big enough to have the impact that the design sought to achieve.

Secondly, a minority view within the 9/11 families is holding sway and this minority is proporting to speak for all of the families. As one family member was famously quoted as saying "they think that being heard means being obeyed". It is patently bullshit.

In any case, as I said elsewhere I predict the space will be reworked both above and below ground within 5-10 years of its opening.

Speaking of the "anger" stage of grief. I have always found the parallels between the "angry minority of family representatives" and the "angry rebuild the twin towers fanatics" to be fascinating. They have both got stuck in that angry phase, one over the loss of family, the other over loss of something that was symbolic to them. One group has focused all their anger on the memorial for their loved ones and the other has focused all their anger on two buildings and a site plan. As little respect as I have for the "angry family minority", I've got to say when you look at it this way the "angry twins fanatics" come off even more ridiculous, even though I, personally, have more empathy for the "angry twins fantatics".

The few benches depicted in plaza renderings are very indistinct.
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