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Thread: Modernizing at LaGuardia: $1 billion makeover

  1. #16
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    LaGuardia serves as the regional/shortish distance airport for the Upper East Side. No way will it be closed.
    Last edited by stache; November 24th, 2008 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Typo.

  2. #17
    Senior Member DKNY617's Avatar
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    I live a 10 minute taxi ride from LGA and I've flown from there countless times so I'm happy that they will eventually go through with this renovation, it badly, badly needs it.

  3. #18
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    Do the rebuild and bring the N Train right up to the Central Terminal Building, if you ever get the chance to fly out of DCA it's a great airport. Beautiful terminal and the Metro rail is right in front of the Terminal.

  4. #19
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    When Bush allowed the financing of transit to airports, he specifically forbade extending existing transit tracks to reach airports. Total dipwad.

  5. #20

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    So airport insiders wanna close LGA?


  6. #21
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    LaG should be limited. It does need to be modernized, but we should not see this as an expansion. NYC does indeed need a better system, but building more runways in ANY of the nearby airports is not a welcome solution to an already overcrowded system.

    We should probably be looking for ways to get some high speed rail lines in through the NIMBY zones while forclosure rates are high (Yes, that is rather callous, but reality). This would serve possibly 2 functions.

    1. Eliminate the need for so many shuttle flights to Boston, Chicago and DC.

    2. Act as a gate to a less local airport w/o being colossally inconvenient.

    Just a thought.

  7. #22
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    I think we need an airport further out on Long Island. It could serve the entire East Coast, the Caribbean, Europe, Scandinavia etc.

  8. #23

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    High speed rail won't be enough to elimnate the future requirement for more runways as traffic grows. Saying that no new runway could be built at JFK/EWR is akin to stunting the future economic growth of the region.

    How are new entrants going to penetrate NYC after JFK/EWR hit max? True high speed rail won't be done in the NEC, only upgrades, so it will neve be enough to free the runways at the major airports.

    A new runway is necessary to allow for more capacity, and stewart will be useless unless it has HSR to the city-even then, I'm not sure it would attract people from NYC.

    JFK can accomidate another runway, and so can EWR -- it just requires the will and the financing... otherwise, NYC will foreever be a slot constrained nightmare with no way to grow in terms of international trade and commerce.

    The major airlines of the world flock together, so no way are some going ot go out to Stewart unless forced

    A better solution would have been a new airport somwhere in a rural area closer to the City than Newburgh -- Rural New Jersey maybe, out past Morristown, or Monmouth on the bay.

    If that were the case, there would be no need for the blight inducing LGA as that high yield domestic traffic could switch to JFK, and the locational advantage of LGA eclipsed by a new one-seat-ride from GCS -- through the new ESA tunnell -- over to JFK. The land of LGA would be worth a fortune in development rights and would improve the quality of life of the city and especially queens... why put lipstick on a pig? This is short term thinking by the PA.
    Last edited by futurecity; November 24th, 2008 at 02:52 PM.

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post
    I've talked to and discussed the issue with aviation insiders.
    I assume you refer to people in the industry. I have never heard or read anything where an aviation-insider has advocated demapping airport land in a dense metro area.

    valuable land that could be used for development purposes, homes, etc... its a valuable site.
    Until the people decide they don't want to fly anymore, there's no more valuable use for this land than an airport.

    The airport is a niche player
    Big niche.

    LGA is in the top 20 of busiest airports in the US. If you factor out non-stop overseas flights, it's number one. It handles 55% of the traffic to JFK, so if you close it, you're going to have to add that to JFK just to break even.

    And people from the Bronx and Westchester would then have to travel through all of Queens to get a flight. Not a very good environmental solution.

    The reason the PA doesn't propose any runways at JFK is due to environmental concerns.
    And what do you know about this?

    JFK could easily have another in the bay if a detailed review was conducted to proove that the bay would not be harmed.
    It's already been proven that Jamaica Bay has been harmed by both dredging and the existing runway extension.

    Stewart is not for NYC. Check out the LHR Stansted debate -- airlines won't leave the primary airports for stewart even if there was a rail link. It may serve as a discount/freight base, that is all. Unless they forced either JFK or EWR to close, airlines arn't going to base anything up there.
    As a matter of fact, I think your idea of keeping LGA is backwards and conservative shortsighted thinking.
    When Floyd Bennett operated as a municipal airport, ideas to expand it were met with criticism that it was too far from Manhattan. One could say that they exhibited backwards and conservative shortsighted thinking.

    I wonder what people will say about Stewart in 20 years?

  10. #25

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    I think Stewart is important only if rapid rail reached there from central NYC in around 30-40 mins max -- otherwise it's a regional airport, low-cost/charter/freight hub at the most.

    As there seems to be no possibility of that rail link, adding a runway at JFK or EWR would be the best.

    I think LGA could be closed in this scenario. Its 25 million pax could be absorbed by JFK quite easily and rail links could make the journey easy for those who drive there now from UES/Bronx/Westchester... However, a new airport is still required to allow for further expansion somwhere in the area as Stewart is a failed plan IMO...if it were 15 miles closer, than yes, maybe it would work.

    The bay is important, yes... so are the lives of people living under LGA's flight paths...just as important.

    Something has to be done -- a slow rail to stewart is only enough to turn it into a regional player max -- there needs to be 100mph non-stop service from manhattan for it to be a ny airport.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post
    I think Stewart is important only if rapid rail reached there from central NYC in around 30-40 mins max -- otherwise it's a regional airport, low-cost/charter/freight hub at the most.

    As there seems to be no possibility of that rail link, adding a runway at JFK or EWR would be the best.
    There's that backward thinking again. You contradict your own themes.

    I think LGA could be closed in this scenario. Its 25 million pax could be absorbed by JFK quite easily and rail links could make the journey easy for those who drive there now from UES/Bronx/Westchester
    You say this so easily. Here's another way of looking at it.

    Flight operations for the three metro area airports in 2006:

    Total - 1,251,508
    EWR - 448,563 (35.8%)
    LGA - 408,211 (32.4%)
    JFK - 396,734 (31.8%)

    So you're going to more than double operations at JFK, and do it easily.

    However, a new airport is still required to allow for further expansion somwhere in the area as Stewart is a failed plan IMO...if it were 15 miles closer, than yes, maybe it would work.
    You acknowledge a need for another regional airport, and in the same post, advocate closing one of them, and moving its operations to the perimeter.

    It seems to me that your idea has nothing to do with improving air transport in the metro area, but a rationale to oppose the expansion of Stewart - a predetermined conclusion looking for reasons.

  12. #27

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    No backward thinking man, why on earth would you think so? I'm contradicting nothing, stop nit-picking and let the discussion flow.

    Do you really think that a HSR link fast enough to bring stewart in reach of NYC is going to be possible? Its not, and therefore Stewart was a lame choice. It was chosen as a ploy to satisfy the public or governments IMO, when it appeared that NYC was becoming saturated. However, I don't believe they ever thought Newburgh would ever be more than a niche hudson valley player due to distance and lack of interest in investing in real transit solutions. Palmdale in LA was a failure and was a similar ploy to regionalize air traffic in the LA area, it didn't work, and neither will Stewart.

    Let this be clear: I don't oppose Stewart, I just don't see how it will be succesfull as a NYC airport given the lack of history in this country of high speed airport express projects. If you are confident that this could happen, fine... however, i am not so optimistic.

    Given that my opinion of Stewart is that of a miserable joke, the only other options are a new airport or an expansion of JFK/EWR.... New airports won't happen either today (due to NIMBYs), so JFK/EWR must be expanded for the good of the region as the only logical choice left. Remember, new runways at EWR would be placed in an industrial area (port) allowing approaches over allready spoiled land. Runways at JFK would offer water approaches and minimal encroachment over highly populated areas.

    I bring up the closure of LGA because of quality of life issues and also the safety issues that Laguardia has with its difficult approach paths, etc. Why is the bay more important than these human beings?

    Of course an expanded JFk + an expanded EWR could absorb the operations of LGA and more...with an additional 2 runways, sure...explain to me why this isn't possible? LGA is only a 2 runway airport... EWR/JFK with more runways will easily absorb that together. Explain to me why, i'm interested in knowing why LGA traffic couldn't be accomidated in an expanded JFK + EWR?

    Sure, if nobody cares about environmental issues, expand LGA and add another runway then... don't you see that I'm advocating increasing the quality of life for NY residents while putting noisy and polluting air traffic in areas that have approaches in lower density areas, farm land, ocean or industrial areas? Do you think if LGA was in a more people friendly location I would wish to close it? No. I oppose it, because it is a lame duck airport without the possibility of expansion nor a rail-link to manhatan, a hostile residential population, a hemmed in speck of land, a difficult system of approaches in bad weather, noise, high density development all around, pollution, and all that...

    I don't understand why nobody sees the health effects of LGA. Does nobody care about health issues on this board?
    Last edited by futurecity; November 24th, 2008 at 07:18 PM.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post
    No backward thinking man, why on earth would you think so? I'm contradicting nothing, stop nit-picking and let the discussion flow.
    First I was pedantic. Now I'm nit-picking.

    Review all your threads. The common theme is that New York is not forward thinking, and then you dismiss something you don't agree with as it'll never happen.

    Let this be clear: I don't oppose Stewart
    What? [see below]

    Given that my opinion of Stewart is that of a miserable joke,
    Confirms the contention I made previously.

    I don't understand why nobody sees the health effects of LGA. Does nobody care about health issues on this board?
    I asked in an earlier post if you knew anything about the ecology of Jamaica Bay. I remember asking this once before, and again, you ignored it. Now you try and bring up an environmental argument to support closing LGA. I won't even bother getting into a discussion with you on this until you demonstrate that you know what you're talking about.

    Ask yourself why, other than mysterious airport insiders, no one except you has advocated this ridiculous idea.

    farm land
    Have you ever been to New York, other than Google Earth?

  14. #29

    Exclamation

    1) I have a home in NYC but I am currently away. Farm land was a reference to rural areas way outside of NYC where a new airport could be

    2) You are prepared to argue that the effects of wetlands are more important to the environment and health of residents than low flying aircraft over their heads, good luck to you.

    3) I said I don't oppose the idea of stewart, but as I see it, it was a failure from the begining as there is no way a real HSR link can be done therefore it was just a platitude, a joke solution because there will be no real follow through. The link up there would take over an hour as currently proposed. It will be slow, stop everywhere, and take ages...do you think that will turn it into a genuine option for NYers? A poor location and a useless solution IMO, and you know it. Actually, it was very weak on their part, they should have proposed something bolder - a new airport or a expansion of the current. A mickey mouse regional airport will not make a 4th NYC airport.

    4) Forget my previous posts -- NY is moving foward in many areas, but the PA isn't, and stop defending NYC as if its your baby. What, I can't critisize and propose new ideas? Oh, boo hoo to you.. I said before that NY must invest in transit to maintain their global competitive advantage - and with this financial collapse of NY's primary industry, they need all the investment they can get. Do you see other world cities with 1950's style transit infrastructure like NYC, no -- we don't even have an express link to our primary airport for god's sake, wake up NYC Open your eyes and see that the NY region is way behind the likes of emerging centers and will be left behind unless they actually realize this and make the changes required.

    5) You have not explained why LGA's traffic could not be absorbed by an expanded JFK/EWR yet...
    Last edited by futurecity; November 24th, 2008 at 08:29 PM.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post
    1) I have a home in NYC.
    Is it a farm? You never post from here.

    You are prepared to argue that the effects of wetlands are more important to the environment and health of residents than low flying aircraft over their heads, good luck to you.
    I don't doubt that you don't understand the relationship; as I already said, you know nothing about the subject.

    You have not explained why LGA's traffic could not be absorbed by an expanded JFK/EWR yet...
    I didn't say it couldn't be absorbed; I noted that it would have to be more than doubled only to stay exactly where we are today. You're the one who dismissed LGA as a niche-player.

    Open your eyes and see that the NY region is way behind the likes of emerging centers and will be left behind unless they actually realize this and make the changes required.
    My respose to your first post specifically addressed your idea to close LGA, which I think is ridiculous, not the need to address region-wide transportation issues.

    Forget my previous posts
    You're finally making sense. I'll add this one. I've already been advised that I'm spinning my wheels.

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