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Thread: Dept of Sanitation Garage in Hudson Square

  1. #46
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    CB2...


    Just a clue, you are asking a lot of pretty good, although "lazy" questions on the whole subject, but the way you phrasing them is not lending to any sense of conviviality.

    Your first 3 posts insulted one of the large contributors (and very rare fighter) on this forum, and your later posts seem to be almost bulleted demands rather than discussions and requests for filling in the gaps.

    Do some googling yourself man! Bring in an op-ed or city plan you may have found here or there. Even if it is minor, i will be seen as cooperation and contribution rather than phact phishing.

    You do not seem like a bad guy CB, just a bit pushy. Relax a bit.....




    As for the facilities, I agree. It is difficult to fit all you need to operate a city within its bounds. Just like a luxury car, you need an oil filter, drip pan, air filter and gas tank.

    You would not want any of these to be in your lap while driving, but unlike a car, you really can't just stick them behind or under the engine and hope everyone likes them there.

    So aside from NJ (no, we won't take them....) or all of Manhattan throwing out less trash (HAHAHAHAHA) what other solution is there? If your only complaint is the route that the trucks have to take to get around, that is pretty small. I would rather get them off the sidewalk first rather than worry about the fact that they have to go down a back-street to get to the main road...

  2. #47

    Default Why wouldn't

    I don't know nearly enough about the city and the ability to do this but why wouldn't they build these garages underground somewhere? I know that hudson square may not work well because it is a flood zone but seems to me there might be better areas for this (even within these districts). Underground also seems really efficient.

    On the fuel storage - no plan here but I would think there has got to be something smarter than storing near the hudson tunnel which has (along with the path tubes) already been mentioned in the past 12 months as a terrorist target. We elect our gov't officials to come up with smart solutions and this one (especially on the fuel) seems really odd.

    I will say that the 57th street DOS building looks quite nice in the renderings so hopefully whatever ends up here looks as nice.

  3. #48
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Big, main reasons are pre-existing construction and $$.

    Manhattan has three main construction zones. Bedrock, fill or pre-existing construction. Getting a plot of unused subterranian large enough to build something like this on it is as hard, if not harder, than getting something above-ground.

    As for the fuel depot and the like, it is hard to build something when you do not own the land needed to do it.

    I think the DPW and whoever else is involved could BUY some more land to do this, but that in itself would probably cost more than the reclamation and construction of the facility itself.

    Too much $$ almost any way you look at it...

  4. #49
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Maybe the should flip the salt storage and the truck washing / refueling sites ...

    Here's the map of what is proposed:



    Salt Storage could go onto the triangle at West / Spring / Canal.

    Washing / Refueling could go to the block at Houston / Washington.

  5. #50
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtowner View Post

    There is also a safety factor. Kids and adults on bikes, strollers and rollerblades are constantly using Spring St. to get to HRP.
    There is no crosswalk leading into the HRP at the foot of Spring Street. The closest X-Walk is at the south side of the intersection of Canal / West St opposite the new Canal Street Park. The other option is to cross at Houston Street. There are no X-Walks between those two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtowner View Post

    Two cyclists have been killed on the path in recent months. The park does not need to have its reputation tarnished further.
    All the more reason to get DOS facilities out of the HRP ASAP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtowner View Post

    The role of Spring & Canal St. as gateways to the park must be taken into account.
    At some point in the past there was discussion of constructing a pedestrian bridge across West Street into Pier 40. This seems to be something that should be raised once again, particularly as the redevelopment of Pier 40 moves forward.

  6. #51

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    Several voices here are not addressing the problems, they are doing a Jack Webb on them, “I Just Want Facts Mam, Just the Facts.” I appreciate their facts but I don’t see alternate solutions coming from those individuals.

    Specifically, “There is no crosswalk leading into the HRP at the foot of Spring Street. The closest X-Walk is at the south side of the intersection of Canal / West St opposite the new Canal Street Park. The other option is to cross at Houston Street. There are no X-Walks between those two.”

    Obviously people that live in Hudson Square are aware of that, and given the traffic pattern set up, it makes sense, although at rush hour the south bound lane on West Street is diverted further south from the Canal Street approach to the Holland Tunnel. Is one to dawdle in that funny little patch of green, I believe it’s called Canal Park, waiting to cross? I’m not saying the park is useless, it’s better than keeping snowplows in that patch of no man’s land like DSNY use to do. But please, who goes there to eat lunch and reflect on the betterment of man?

    So great, Hudson Square, and may I add SoHo, residents access to HRP is via the top of Tribeca or the bottom of the Village. Thanks for the convenience, but we knew that already.


    "Two cyclists have been killed on the path in recent months. The park does not need to have its reputation tarnished further.
    All the more reason to get DOS facilities out of the HRP ASAP.
    "

    They were not killed by garbage trucks, the latest fatality was caused by a poorly marked access road and a driver who was unfamiliar with the pathways. As a monthly parker at Pier 40 I have seen way too many cyclists go merrily through an obviously marked stop signal at Houston street with their ear phones stuffing their head. It’s a wonder more haven’t been injured or killed.

    "At some point in the past there was discussion of constructing a pedestrian bridge across West Street into Pier 40. This seems to be something that should be raised once again, particularly as the redevelopment of Pier 40 moves forward."

    The pedestrian bridge makes sense if the public facilities are on the second or third level of Pier 40. An elevator should be provided of course for the handicap and elderly and where should it be located? Houston Street would be the most logical place due to, at least what I see from using the Pier, the most common access point to the Pier. Clarkson Street would be more convenient for people coming from the Village of course.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    Maybe the should flip the salt storage and the truck washing / refueling sites ...

    Here's the map of what is proposed:



    Salt Storage could go onto the triangle at West / Spring / Canal.

    Washing / Refueling could go to the block at Houston / Washington.
    Yes that seems like a very reasonable solution. I have to imagine there is some reason why they didn't do that. I guess this thing is still in a very early stage so solutions like this one are still quite likely to come along.

  8. #53

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    I apologize, Lofter came up with an alternative plan for the project. That's what we need. More thought into this thoughtless project. Thanks Lofter.

    I believe you are talking about the building at Clarkson and Washington Streets, not Houston and Washington.

  9. #54
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBTwo View Post

    Several voices here are not addressing the problems, they are doing a Jack Webb on them, “I Just Want Facts Mam, Just the Facts.” I appreciate their facts but I don’t see alternate solutions coming from those individuals.
    I asked you way back after your first post here for a viable alternative to the DOS proposal from your point of view -- but you have yet to offer one with any specifics.

  10. #55

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    I did. One of the most obvious things to do is build a new pier, either for the park or for sanitation. Or down size the project so it fits more to the community. Do I have to make a flow diagram for you to understand the two possible solutions?

    What do you want me do for specifics, specify the bore diameter of the inspection ports on the proposed pier?

    I even gave you the benefit of positive acknowledgement regarding the switch from salt to fuel. Is that the limit of your thinking outside the ...? Great! and Thanks for all your thoughts.

    Plus Chimp doesn't like this forum to get personal so I wont.
    Last edited by CBTwo; January 23rd, 2007 at 12:11 AM.

  11. #56
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    One point ^^^ of agreement (many to go )

    And I like diagrams, so if you'd like to post visual aids you'll get no complaints here.

    Per your idea to build an additonal pier: It seems that any idea regarding DOS facilities on the piers will not be viable due to the NYS court ruling that states all DOS uses must vacate the park area by 2012.

    The entire waterfront along there is controlled by the Hudson River Park Trust under the Hudson River Park Act.

    Piers and DOS don't mix. It is a matter of law.

    So if DOS con't be on the pier, then no additional new pier is needed for park space.

    Besides, building a new pier into the Hudson would most likely also require all sorts of land use studies / applications / legal maneuvers involving many of the issues that stopped Westway.

    On the other hand if you know otherwise (i.e.: that building such a new pier out into the Hudson River would be an easily achievable goal) then any concrete info pointing in that direction would be appreciated.

    You suggest that salt storage continue at the site under the Williamsburg Bridge. If it's viable then I have no problem with that. Especially if it could mean that the planned refueling building is moved away from the Holland Tunnel / Canal Street location and into the block proposed for the salt storage facility. However I do not know if the Williamburg Bridge site is workable in the future -- there could be some specific reason that it is proposed to move the current salt storage away from there. Such info on that site would be good to know before presenting it as a solution to the salt storage problem.

    You keep challenging me to come up with a better idea. But I don't have a big problem with the overall concept of these specific DOS facilities on the sites proposed. Therefore I'm not going to spend lots of my time figuring out an alternative. I'll leave that to those who believe passionately that changes to the DOS plan are necessary -- and who have the wherewithal to follow through with a clear new plan which will be listened to by those in power.

    After all, those with the power are the ones who will make the decisions regarding this DOS proposal. They are ones to whom a viable, complete alternative will need to be presented -- they are the ones who truly need to be won over.

  12. #57
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    This is from NYS Department of Environmental Conservation ...

    http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/e...0103/not2.html

    ENB - REGION 2 NOTICES
    Positive Declaration And Public Scoping

    New York City County - The New York City Department of Sanitation, as lead agency, has determined that the proposed Consolidated Sanitation Garage for Manhattan Districts 1, 2 and 5 may have a significant adverse impact on the environment and a Draft Environmental Impact Statement must be prepared. A public scoping session will be held on January 31, 2007, from 7:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m. at Kimmel Hall, New York University, 60 Washington Square South, Rosenthal Pavilion, Tenth Floor.

    Written comments on the Draft Scope are also invited and will be accepted and considered if received by 5pm on February 12, 2007 by the project contact person listed below. A draft Scope of Work for the DEIS is available for public review and comment on DSNY’s website (www.nyc.gov/sanitation), at the office of DSNY’s contact person, and at the repositories indicated below:
    -Mayor’s Office of Environmental Coordination, 253 Broadway, 14th Floor, New York, NY 10007

    -NYC Public Library, Hudson Park Branch, 66 Leroy Street, New York NY, 10014

    -NYC Public Library, Jefferson Market Regional Branch, 425 Sixth Avenue, New York, NY 10011

    -Community Board 2 Office, 3 Washington Square Village, Apt. 1A, New York, NY 10012.
    As part of its ongoing capital program, DSNY proposes to consolidate operations of three district garages (1, 2 and 5) at a new garage facility to be constructed in lower Manhattan on a site generally bounded by Spring Street on the south, Washington Street on the east, West Street on the west, and St. John's Center (550 Washington Street) on the north. The new garage is intended to replace outdated facilities, provide better service to the local community districts, and improve operational efficiencies.

    The garage will also enable DSNY to comply with its legal obligation to vacate the Gansevoort peninsula 2 Bloomfield Street/427 Gansevoort Street within the recently established Hudson River Park, which currently holds garages for Manhattan Districts 2 and 4. The proposed consolidated garage, located in Manhattan Community District 2 next to the current District 1 Garage would service Community Districts 1, 2 and 5. DSNY vehicles and equipment providing refuse and recyclables collection and winter emergency services, would be garaged, maintained and refueled there.

    The new facility would consolidate garage operations of Manhattan District 1 currently at 553 Canal Street/297 West Street, Manhattan District 2 currently at 2 Bloomfield Street/427 Gansevoort Street, and Manhattan District 5 currently at 525-545 East 73rd Street. Associated actions would include relocation of the Manhattan District 6 Garage from a leased facility (606 West 30th Street, between 11th and 12th Avenues) back to the site now occupied by the Manhattan District 5 Garage at 525-545 East 73rd Street; replacing the existing 14,575 square foot (sf) Manhattan District 1 Garage with a newly constructed fueling and truck washing facility on the site (553 Canal Street/297 West Street); vacating the existing Manhattan District 2 Garage site and salt shed on 2 Bloomfield Street/427 Gansevoort Street; demolition of a 2-story private parking garage on Block 600, Lot 29 at 575 Washington Street between Clarkson and West Houston Streets (a site of 13,495 sf) and construction and seasonal operation of a covered road salt storage facility on the site.

    The proposed Garage site (Lot 50) and the truck washing and refueling facility (Lot 87) are both within an M2-4 zoning district, while the proposed salt storage site (Lot 29) is within an M1-5 district. Within ¼ mile of the site is a mix of commercial, industrial and residential zoning and land uses.

    The new Consolidated Garage would be approximately 140 to 150 feet in height, up to 220 feet wide and 413 feet long, with approximately 427,000 gross sf of space and be located on an approximately 85,450 sf site that is partially paved, fenced and used by the United Parcel Service (UPS) for truck trailer staging and parking to support the adjacent UPS Package Distribution Facility at 315 West Houston Street.

    The first floor of the proposed Consolidated Garage would accommodate existing on-site UPS vehicle parking and storage (approximately 58 trucks). Floors 2, 3 and 4 would include DSNY vehicle storage, offices, and employee locker facilities. DSNY employees would total approximately 231 over all three shifts on a peak day, with a shift peak of 108 employees. The facility would operate 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.

    The Garage would have one 10,000 gallon diesel fuel storage tank, a tank each for motor oil, waste oil and hydraulic oil (1000 gallons each).

    The refueling and truck washing facility will have four 4000 gallon diesel fuel tanks, one 4000 unleaded gasoline tank, one 4000 gallon ethanol tank, one 2000 gallon hydraulic oil tank, one 2000 gallon motor oil tank, and one 1000 gallon waste oil tank.

    The salt storage facility on Lot 29 would be enclosed and kept locked except during resupply and winter emergency use. It would store up to 6500 tons of road salt and have two aboveground tanks for liquid calcium chloride for melting snow and ice.

    The build year for all three proposed structures would be 2012 following a three-year construction period.

    Primary DSNY truck and equipment access and egress to the DSNY garage would be via West Street. The configuration of West Street in this location would allow for queuing of trucks and equipment, when needed. Vehicles exiting the garage would turn north onto West Street. DSNY secondary access and egress would be from Washington Street (one-way in a southerly direction) at the northern end of the site. DSNY employees would enter and access the garage from Washington Street mid-block. The garage facility would have approximately 106 parking spaces for DSNY trucks and equipment and 98 spaces for automobiles. The total number of DSNY daily two-way vehicular movements into and out of the site would be 480 trips (240 trips in and 240 trips out).

    The proposed action includes site selection and acquisition for a capital project and related Uniform Land Use Review Procedure approval, special permits for a height variance and relief from street wall setback requirements, Art Commission review, City construction contracts, and consistency review with the City’s Waterfront Revitalization Program for actions in the designated Coastal Zone.

    Contact: Abas O. Braimah, City Planner, New York City Department of Sanitation, Bureau of Legal Affairs, 125 Worth Street, Room 708, New York, NY 10013, phone: (646) 885-4993.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBTwo View Post
    Several voices here are not addressing the problems, they are doing a Jack Webb on them, “I Just Want Facts Mam, Just the Facts.” I appreciate their facts but I don’t see alternate solutions coming from those individuals.
    It's not incumbent on those who either support or accept any modification of the project, including moving it elsewhere, to offer alternatives.

  14. #59

    Default Fun Facts About Salt Piles

    Under the Manhattan Bridge (CD3) - A viable location for CD1,2,3 & 5?

    In New York City there are 34 city-owned salt storage locations, 26 of which are along the waterfront and 19 of which are outdoors and uncontained piles. Salt piles on the waterfront are a significant concern both to the health of our environment and the value of New York’s waterfronts. Storing unprotected salt on the waterfront poses a significant environmental problem, terrestrial and aquatic resources are damaged as chemicals in these salts seep into soil and groundwater and run off into surface water due to wind and rain. This is the same salt that corrodes our cars and seeps into the soil and water if it is unprotected from wind and rain. The City will protect the aquatic live, vegetation, and water quality it is currently threatening.

    While New York City waters are brackish, salt from salt piles and snow increases the salinity of the water near the pile, aggravating the balance necessary for aquatic life in the vicinity. Salt used for snow removal is also not pure sodium; additives that increase its effectiveness can have adverse consequences for the natural environment. These include chlorine, which can be detrimental at high concentrations, sodium chloride, which, after dissolution renders chloride ions that do not easily dissipate and therefore accumulates in water to pose risks, and sodium ferrocynide, which can dissociate to form cyanide in solution and in the presence of light. Calcium, potassium, and magnesium chlorides are also added to snow salt.[1]


    [1] Riverkeeper, “Road Salt Storage on the NYC Waterfront: Environmental Considerations,” unpublished manuscript (February 2003).


    Borough Sanitation District Location Coverage Capacity(tns)Waterfront
    Manhattan M2 Gansevoort Peninsula Shed Fulltime 8,000 yes
    Manhattan M3 South and Pike Streets Open 4,000 yes
    Manhattan M3 Henry Street Indoors 1,500 yes
    Manhattan M7 West 56th Street/North River Shed 2,000 yes

    CB#3 – November, 2005 Resolution
    Temporary storage of salt pile at Pier 35 for one season on OEM property
    VOTE: That Community Board #3 understands that the NYDS was planning to enclose the salt pile at Pike Street/South Street so that it would not be a dangerous area for children and also to prevent salt from leaking onto the sidewalk. However, when excavating for this enclosure, NYDS discovered gas tanks at this former gas station site that have not been certified for proper removal by the NYDEC. It is therefore necessary to obtain the proper environmental approvals and to ensure that the soil in the area is safe.

    NYDS therefore finds it necessary to store the salt pile for the 2005 – 2006 winter on OEM property. This specifically is the OEM parking lot at Pier 36. The salt pile will be kept at a minimum level, approximately 1500 tons and will be refilled as necessary during the winter. The salt pile will be kept at a distance from the bike path and will have cinder blocks around the boundaries for safety.

    The Department of Sanitation has made every effort to keep the Community Board informed. The Board understands the necessity to have an unenclosed salt pile on the OEM parking lot for this one year ending April 2006 and looks forward to a presentation of the design of the enclosure located at Pike/South St. before it is erected.

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    The build year for all three proposed structures would be 2012 following a three-year construction period.
    So building starts in 2009 with it going operational in 2012. The next two years while they are planning this thing will be a real battle. I'd love to see the renderings as soon as anyone sees anything. I am having a tough time imagining it being so tall (150 feet). The one on 57th street is 117 feet and 4 stories, I believe.

    I was also doing some running around on the web about eminent domain and the ability for the city to make UPS agree to doing this. That debate is a pretty fervent one as well.

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